836: The Big Rethink - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #836 | July 19, 2024 836: The Big Rethink Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 836 集 | 2024 年 7 月 19 日 836：大反思 注：《This American Life》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
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如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass For three weeks, Joe Biden said as forcefully as a human being possibly could say that he would not step down.
序言：序言 艾拉·格拉斯 三个星期以来，乔·拜登以人类所能表达的最有力的方式表示他不会下台。
And for three weeks, it was this agonizing drip, drip, drip of people trying to get him to reconsider and of voters around the country wondering if he was going to reconsider.
三个星期以来，人们不断地试图让他重新考虑，而全国各地的选民都在想他是否会重新考虑。
Fed by a steady stream of daily news stories that read tea leaves and applied electron microscopes to the tiniest scraps of evidence, looking for any minuscule signs indicating that maybe it could happen, maybe Biden would rethink things.
在源源不断的每日新闻报道的推动下，这些新闻报道阅读了茶叶，并用电子显微镜观察了最微小的证据碎片，寻找任何微小的迹象表明这可能会发生，也许拜登会重新考虑事情。
Democrats wondering what it might take to change Biden's mind.
民主党人想知道如何才能改变拜登的想法。
Meanwhile, over in the other half of the country, in red-state America, at the Republican National Convention, people who had changed their minds and reconsidered firmly held convictions were a big part of the festivities.
与此同时，在美国的另一半，在红州美国，在共和党全国代表大会上，那些改变主意并重新考虑坚定信念的人们成为了庆祝活动的重要组成部分。
Donald Trump picked his vice president, a man who once said about him, "My god, what an idiot," JD Vance.
唐纳德·特朗普 (Donald Trump) 选择了他的副总统，JD·万斯 (JD Vance) 曾这样评价他：“天哪，真是个白痴。”
Nikki Haley, who had once called Trump unhinged, and other former Trump rivals, people who once seemed like they hated Trump and spoken out against him, took the stage to show how they'd reconsidered.
曾经称特朗普精神错乱的尼基·黑利(Nikki Haley)和其他特朗普的前竞争对手，那些曾经似乎讨厌特朗普并公开反对他的人，都上台展示了他们如何重新考虑。
And even Trump himself, the centerpiece of the whole thing, seemed to be presenting himself as a changed man, somebody who had reconsidered who he wants to be in the wake of his near assassination.
就连特朗普本人，整个事件的核心人物，似乎也将自己呈现为一个改变的人，一个在险些被暗杀之后重新考虑了自己想成为的人的人。
He presented a notably gentler, uniter-not-divider side of himself.
他展现出自己特别温和、团结而非分裂的一面。
All this reconsideration, of course, was in the service of getting the swing voters of the swing states to do some reconsideration of their own about who they might be picking for president this fall.
当然，所有这些重新考虑都是为了让摇摆州的摇摆选民重新考虑他们可能在今年秋天挑选的总统候选人。
I sometimes feel like the rarest thing in the world is to witness somebody actually changing their mind.
有时我觉得世界上最稀有的事情就是目睹有人真正改变主意。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
Changing their mind about something big, some fundamental belief.
改变他们对一些大事、一些基本信念的看法。
I mean, I know it happens, right?
我的意思是，我知道它会发生，对吗？
Most of us know people who are never going to have kids who decide they're going to go for it, or Democrats who became Republicans, pro-lifers who switched to pro-choicers.
我们大多数人都知道，那些永远不会生孩子的人决定要这么做，或者是民主党人变成了共和党人，反对堕胎者变成了支持堕胎者。
When it happens, it's a seismic thing.
当它发生时，这是一场地震。
And that point of transition, when you're flipping from one way of seeing things to the new way, that is a weird, awkward thing to live through.
当你从一种看待事物的方式转变为新的方式时，这个转变点是一件奇怪、尴尬的事情。
And so today on our show, in this moment when Joe Biden seems to have reconsidered some of his most deeply held ideas about himself and his chances in this election, we have stories of people rethinking some big, basic beliefs that they've taken for granted, trying on a new attitude toward the world.
因此，今天在我们的节目中，当乔·拜登似乎重新考虑了他对自己和他在这次选举中的机会的一些最根深蒂固的想法时，我们看到人们重新思考一些他们认为理所当然的重大基本信念，尝试对世界采取新的态度。
And we watch how that goes for them.
我们观察他们的情况如何。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act one, Fate of the Union.
第一幕，联盟的命运。
Of all the people who'd rethought their feelings about Donald Trump at the Republican National Convention in Milwaukee this week, there was one guest for whom the rethink has been especially dramatic, and that's Sean O'Brien.
本周在密尔沃基举行的共和党全国代表大会上，在所有重新思考自己对唐纳德·特朗普的感受的人中，有一位嘉宾的重新思考尤其引人注目，那就是肖恩·奥布莱恩。
A lifelong Democrat from Massachusetts, Sean O'Brien is the head of the Teamsters Union.
肖恩·奥布莱恩 (Sean O'Brien) 是马萨诸塞州的终身民主党人，也是卡车司机联盟的主席。
1.3 million truck drivers, rail, air, all transportation, delivery workers, lots of jobs, they endorsed Biden in 2020.
130万卡车司机、铁路、航空、所有运输、送货工人，大量就业机会，他们在2020年支持拜登。
And Sean O'Brien was at the RNC to give a speech-- a big speech, actually, the keynote speech on the first night of the convention.
肖恩·奥布莱恩 (Sean O'Brien) 在共和党全国委员会发表演讲——实际上是一场大型演讲，是大会第一晚的主题演讲。
I should say, the Teamsters Union president hasn't spoken at the RNC ever before in the entire history of the union, because-- maybe this is obvious-- Republicans have been the party of big business and generally pretty opposed to organized labor.
我应该说，卡车司机工会主席在工会的整个历史中从未在共和党全国委员会发表过讲话，因为——也许这是显而易见的——共和党一直是大企业的政党，通常非常反对有组织的劳工。
Zoe Chace tells how this played out.
佐伊·切斯 (Zoe Chace) 讲述了事情的经过。
Here's how weird it is that this guy, Sean O'Brien, is at the RNC in the first place.
这就是肖恩·奥布莱恩（Sean O'Brien）这个人一开始就在共和党全国委员会（RNC）的奇怪之处。
President Biden, a Democrat, calls himself the most pro-union president in history.
民主党总统拜登称自己是历史上最支持工会的总统。
There's reasons.
这是有原因的。
He bailed out union pensions.
他救助了工会养老金。
The Teamsters were pushing for that.
卡车司机们正在为此努力。
All his major infrastructure bills have included money and benefits specifically for unions.
他的所有主要基础设施法案都包括专门为工会提供的资金和福利。
He walked a picket line with the United Auto Workers.
他与美国汽车工人联合会一起参加纠察线。
He gave his first 2020 campaign speech from a Teamsters Hall.
他在卡车司机大厅发表了 2020 年首次竞选演讲。
Donald Trump has a record, too, as a Republican president, of rolling back regulations that protected unions, appointing Supreme Court justices who ruled against unions, and of course, hiring non-union workers when he was a real estate developer, notoriously stiffing his workers out of overtime.
作为一名共和党总统，唐纳德·特朗普也有过取消保护工会的法规、任命最高法院法官做出不利于工会的裁决的记录，当然，他在担任房地产开发商时还雇用了非工会工人，臭名昭著的是禁止工人加班。
Both of them talk about loving American workers, obviously.
显然，他们俩都谈到了热爱美国工人。
That's politics.
这就是政治。
But their policies are very different.
但他们的政策却截然不同。
So when Teamsters President Sean O'Brien showed up at the Republican Convention this week, he felt like an outsider right away.
因此，当卡车司机协会主席肖恩·奥布莱恩本周出现在共和党大会上时，他立刻感觉自己像个局外人。
Or maybe he wanted to make the point that he was an outsider right away.
或者也许他想立即表明自己是一个局外人。
So I'm backstage.
所以我在后台。
And the rehearsal the night before, we came in, and they just wanted to show us the setup of the stage.
前一天晚上排练时，我们进来了，他们只是想向我们展示舞台的设置。
So--
所以——
They're telling Sean how to walk across the stage to the podium.
他们正在告诉肖恩如何穿过舞台走上讲台。
He's going to be the keynote speaker on night one.
他将成为第一晚的主讲人。
And so they said, no, you got to do a dogleg right when you come out of the stage and come down.
所以他们说，不，当你走出舞台并下来时，你必须立即做狗腿。
But the gentleman said, you know golf?
但这位先生说，你懂高尔夫吗？
You know how you do a dogleg right?
你知道如何做狗腿吗？
I said, look, in my business, if you're a good golfer, you're a bad representative.
我说，听着，在我的行业里，如果你是一名优秀的高尔夫球手，那么你就是一个糟糕的代表。
I don't golf.
我不打高尔夫球。
So he says, just make, like, a little arc.
所以他说，就做一个小弧线吧。
So here I am, hopefully delivering the most powerful speech for American workers.
所以我在这里，希望为美国工人发表最有力的演讲。
And I'm debating what a dogleg is with the person.
我正在和这个人争论什么是狗腿。
So it actually-- it was typical to my nature.
所以这实际上是我的本性的典型特征。
I get distracted and start talking to him about how union officials shouldn't golf because they should be out working.
我分心了，开始和他谈论工会官员不应该打高尔夫球，因为他们应该出去工作。
Sean O'Brien seems to be here to walk a fine line, basically, with Republicans.
肖恩·奥布莱恩似乎基本上是在与共和党人保持着微妙的关系。
He's like, look, this is a major prime-time slot where you don't expect to hear from us, where we get to talk to people who aren't usually listening.
他说，看，这是一个主要的黄金时段，你不会指望听到我们的消息，我们可以和那些通常不听的人交谈。
He describes his mission as enlightening the Republican National Convention on how important workers and unions are to this country, and maybe make some new political allies.
他将自己的使命描述为让共和党全国代表大会了解工人和工会对这个国家的重要性，并可能结交一些新的政治盟友。
He's been on this charm offensive with Republicans for months.
几个月来，他一直在对共和党人发起魅力攻势。
He went to Mar-a-Lago.
他去了海湖庄园。
He met with Trump, took a thumbs-up picture with him.
他会见了特朗普，并与他竖起大拇指合影。
He's been meeting with Republican senators, including hard-line conservative Josh Hawley, who ended up walking union picket lines.
他一直在与共和党参议员会面，其中包括强硬保守派乔什·霍利（Josh Hawley），后者最终走上了工会纠察线。
O'Brien told me, we have a really diverse union in all the ways, including politically.
奥布莱恩告诉我，我们的联盟在各个方面都非常多元化，包括政治方面。
A big chunk of his membership supports Trump, and he's here partly for them.
他的大部分会员都支持特朗普，他来这里的部分原因是为了他们。
But some of organized labor is not happy with him at all.
但一些有组织的劳工对他根本不满意。
It's hard to overstate.
很难夸大其词。
Appalled, enraged, apoplectic, horrified.
震惊、愤怒、中风、恐惧。
A vice president of the Teamsters Union publicly called it unconscionable.
卡车司机工会的一位副主席公开称这是不合理的。
So as I think of O'Brien going to the RNC and doing his song and dance, I got to go, what's the message?
所以当我想到奥布莱恩要去共和党全国委员会唱歌跳舞时，我就得走了，这有什么信息吗？
What's he going to say?
他会说什么？
This is Rick Smith's radio show.
这是里克·史密斯的广播节目。
He's a 35-year Teamster, a truck driver.
他是一名 35 年卡车司机，也是一名卡车司机。
He thinks O'Brien's just going to be part of the Trump campaign's long-running political theater of being a party for blue-collar workers without making any actual policy that helps those workers.
他认为奥布莱恩只是成为特朗普竞选活动长期政治舞台的一部分，成为蓝领工人的政党，而没有制定任何帮助这些工人的实际政策。
To him, it's like, what's O'Brien going to get for this?
对他来说，这就像，奥布莱恩会为此得到什么？
The reality is is Sean O'Brien is going to be their whipping boy.
现实是肖恩·奥布莱恩将成为他们的替罪羊。
They are going to use him and my Teamsters Union as their hood ornament as they drive their anti-union policy truck right over the top of working people.
他们将用他和我的卡车司机工会作为他们的引擎盖装饰品，因为他们将反工会政策的卡车开到了劳动人民的上方。
And the reality is is Sean O'Brien is going to be their dancing show pony, whether he wants to be or not.
现实是肖恩·奥布莱恩将成为他们的舞蹈表演小马，无论他是否愿意。
And they're going to ride him until election day, because what they understand, what Trump understands, what the RNC gets by giving him this platform, is a lot of his members vote for Republicans.
他们将一直骑着他直到选举日，因为他们所理解的，特朗普所理解的，共和党全国委员会通过给他这个平台得到的，是他的很多成员投票给共和党。
This is making it OK.
这样就OK了。
This is going, yeah, don't worry about your job.
一切顺利，是的，不用担心你的工作。
Don't worry about any of that stuff.
不用担心任何这些事情。
It's OK.
没关系。
It's fine.
没关系。
So to see how this song and dance goes over, I pick my spot way up high in the stands and sit with some delegates.
因此，为了看看这首歌和舞蹈的效果如何，我在看台上选了一个位置，并与一些代表坐在一起。
I find Todd Gilman, this delegate from Michigan I know, and make him watch Sean O'Brien's speech with me.
我找到托德·吉尔曼（Todd Gilman），我认识的这位来自密歇根州的代表，让他和我一起观看肖恩·奥布莱恩（Sean O'Brien）的演讲。
Todd's retired, a Navy vet.
托德已经退休，是一名海军退伍军人。
He was in a union decades ago.
几十年前他就加入了一个工会。
He got involved with the Republican Party just a few years ago.
他几年前才加入共和党。
And he's organizing a county commissioner race now.
他现在正在组织一场县专员竞选。
We're chatting.
我们正在聊天。
How's that going, those races or those campaigns?
那些比赛或那些活动进展如何？
I think they're going good.
我认为他们进展顺利。
Zoe Chace Yeah?
佐伊·查斯 是吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Zoe Chace Todd has never heard of Sean O'Brien and does not care about him, it seems.
佐伊·切斯·托德从未听说过肖恩·奥布莱恩，而且似乎并不关心他。
All he knows about Teamsters is, where did the mafia bury Jimmy Hoffa's body?
他对卡车司机队的了解就是，黑手党把吉米·霍法的尸体埋在哪里？
We're waiting for O'Brien's spot in the lineup when, suddenly, an unannounced guest appears.
我们正在等待奥布莱恩在阵容中的位置，突然，一位未事先通知的客人出现了。
Oh, Trump's here.
哦，特朗普来了。
Todd Gillman He's in the building.
托德·吉尔曼 他在大楼里。
Trump himself, not scheduled to speak, shows up on screen with a dramatically bandaged ear.
特朗普本人并未安排发言，但他的耳朵却被戏剧性地缠着绷带出现在屏幕上。
It's the first night of the convention, our first time seeing him, and his first time in public since the assassination attempt.
这是大会的第一晚，我们第一次见到他，也是自暗杀企图以来他第一次公开露面。
The crowd is losing it, the cameras following him down the hall toward the convention room like he's a fighter headed into the ring.
人群正在失去它，摄像机跟随他穿过大厅走向会议室，就像他是一名冲向拳击场的战士。
Oh, look at his ear.
哦，看看他的耳朵。
Todd Gillman He might be coming out.
托德吉尔曼他可能会出来。
Your Teamster guy might not be talking.
你的卡车司机可能不会说话。
The crowd is jonesing for Trump, but Trump does not take the stage.
人群都在为特朗普欢呼，但特朗普没有上台。
He sits in the audience.
他坐在观众席上。
And instead, the guy who appears on stage is--
相反，出现在舞台上的那个人是——
Lee Greenwood?
李·格林伍德？
Zoe Chace Country singer.
佐伊·切斯乡村歌手。
He's going to play "Proud to Be an American." And then--
他将演奏“自豪地成为美国人”。然后——
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
哦，是啊，是啊，是啊，是啊。
"Proud to Be an American" is Trump's theme song this campaign.
《自豪地成为美国人》是特朗普此次竞选的主题曲。
It's generally a signal he's about to take the stage.
这通常是他即将登上舞台的信号。
Only this time, the singer himself is here live, giving a sort of impromptu prayer benediction as images of Trump waving and grimacing appear on screen, turning the white-swaddled ear from side to side.
只是这一次，歌手本人现场直播，当特朗普挥手、做鬼脸的图像出现在屏幕上时，他做出了一种即兴的祈祷祝福，将白色襁褓中的耳朵从一边转到另一边。
As Donald Trump turned his head just slightly that the bullet missed him just enough to save his life to be the next president of the United States.
当唐纳德·特朗普稍微转过头时，子弹没有击中他，足以挽救他的生命，成为下一任美国总统。
The crowd sings "Proud to Be an American" with enthusiasm, then chants for Trump.
人群热情高唱“作为美国人感到自豪”，然后为特朗普高呼口号。
[CHANTING "WE WANT TRUMP"] But Trump still does not take the stage.
[高呼“我们想要特朗普”]但特朗普仍然没有上台。
Instead, this random guy limps out and stands there, one of the many regular Americans on the program who feel hurt by Biden's policies.
相反，这个随机的家伙一瘸一拐地站在那里，他是该项目中众多因拜登政策而感到受伤的普通美国人之一。
He's dubbed onscreen as a grandfather.
他在银幕上被称为祖父。
You've got to feel for him.
你必须对他有感觉。
The crowd is chanting, we want Trump, right into his face.
人群高呼“我们想要特朗普”，就在他面前。
Then another rando with the same story of not being able to afford stuff.
然后另一个兰多也有同样的故事，买不起东西。
Then Amber Rose-- how to describe-- model and influencer talks about seeing the light and voting Republican.
然后 Amber Rose——如何形容——模特和影响者谈论了看到光明和投票给共和党。
Overall, the vibes are way off.
总体而言，氛围还很遥远。
Trump's still in the room.
特朗普还在房间里。
People are clamoring for him to speak.
人们大声要求他讲话。
And then finally, the last speaker of the night, instead of Trump, it's the president of the Teamsters Union, the outsider guy, the person who doesn't necessarily belong here.
最后，当晚的最后一位发言者不是特朗普，而是卡车司机联盟主席，一个局外人，一个不一定属于这里的人。
Is this the mob boss?
这是黑帮老大吗？
Zoe Chace There he is.
佐伊·切斯 他来了。
This is the mob boss?
这就是黑帮老大？
Zoe Chace All right, now, you pay attention.
佐伊·切斯 好吧，现在，你注意了。
Tell me what you think.
告诉我你的想法。
He's probably a mob boss if he's a Teamsters president.
如果他是卡车司机协会的主席，他很可能是黑帮老大。
Clearly, O'Brien has some assumptions about union bosses to overcome with this crowd.
显然，奥布莱恩对工会老板的一些假设需要克服这群人。
Greetings, delegates and guests.
各位代表、各位来宾，大家好。
I'm Sean O'Brien, general president of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters.
我是肖恩·奥布莱恩，国际卡车司机兄弟会主席。
OK, big applause.
好的，热烈鼓掌。
And it just gets bigger.
而且它只会变得更大。
And I think we all can agree, whether people like him or they don't like him, in light of what happened to him on Saturday, he has proven to be one tough SOB.
我想我们都可以同意，无论人们喜欢他还是不喜欢他，鉴于周六发生在他身上的事情，他已经被证明是一个强硬的SOB。
Biggest applause line of the night by far, like the catharsis of waiting for Trump is satisfied by this, a line that Sean will tell me he came up with right then, wasn't on the teleprompter.
迄今为止当晚最大的掌声台词，就像等待特朗普的宣泄对此感到满意一样，肖恩告诉我他当时想出了这句话，但提词器上没有。
He was just feeling it.
他只是感觉而已。
My Michigan delegate, Todd, is cheering, along with his military buddy, Bob, from Wisconsin.
我的密歇根代表托德和他来自威斯康星州的军友鲍勃正在欢呼。
Bob leans over.
鲍勃倾身过来。
This is huge.
这是巨大的。
I mean, you've got all these different people that voted for Joe Biden-- and their families did-- coming out here and speaking.
我的意思是，所有这些不同的人都投票给了乔·拜登——以及他们的家人——来到这里发言。
This could turn out to be a total butt-kicking in November.
11 月份这可能会成为一场彻底的冲突。
Now, the Teamsters are not endorsing Trump tonight.
现在，卡车司机今晚不会支持特朗普。
Sean O'Brien has been quite clear about that.
肖恩·奥布莱恩对此已经说得很清楚了。
But Bob from Wisconsin is just hearing the Teamsters throw their weight behind Trump.
但来自威斯康星州的鲍勃刚刚听到卡车司机们纷纷支持特朗普。
He's not paying close attention to the specifics of what Sean is saying, really.
他确实没有密切关注肖恩所说的细节。
And as it goes on, the speech does get much more specific and much less Republican Convention-sounding, basically.
随着时间的推移，演讲确实变得更加具体，基本上听起来不再像共和党大会那样。
He throws long-standing Republican allies, mainstays of the party, under the bus.
他将共和党的长期盟友、共和党的中流砥柱抛到了一边。
But for a century, major employers have waged a war against labor by forming corporate unions of their own.
但一个世纪以来，主要雇主通过组建自己的企业工会向劳工发起了一场战争。
We need to call the Chamber of Commerce and the business roundtables what they are.
我们需要正确称呼商会和商业圆桌会议。
They are unions for big business.
他们是大企业的工会。
And here's another fact.
这是另一个事实。
You think that's right?
你认为这是对的吗？
Todd Gillman Yeah, he's right.
托德·吉尔曼：是的，他是对的。
I never thought of it that way, but he's 100% correct.
我从来没有这么想过，但他是100%正确的。
He talks about major American companies, not as great examples of entrepreneurship, like at a typical Republican Convention, but as great examples of corporate greed.
他谈论美国大公司时，并不是像在典型的共和党大会上那样，将其视为创业精神的典范，而是将其视为企业贪婪的典范。
Companies like Amazon are bigger than most national economies.
像亚马逊这样的公司比大多数国家的经济规模还要大。
Amazon is valued over $2 trillion.
亚马逊估值超过2万亿美元。
What is sickening is that Amazon has abandoned any national allegiance.
令人作呕的是，亚马逊已经放弃了任何国家忠诚度。
Amazon's sole focus is on lining its own pockets.
亚马逊唯一的关注点就是中饱私囊。
People are like, am I with this?
人们会问，我同意吗？
Companies are bad?
公司不好吗？
It's a little awkward.
有点尴尬。
But then O'Brien pulls out a magic word that sells in this room.
但随后奥布莱恩拿出了一个在这个房间里很受欢迎的神奇词。
Remember, elites have no party.
请记住，精英没有政党。
Elites have no nation.
精英没有民族。
Their loyalty is to the balance sheet and the stock price at the expense of the American worker.
他们对资产负债表和股价的忠诚是以牺牲美国工人的利益为代价的。
I love this guy.
我爱这个人。
Bob I can't stand Amazon.
鲍勃，我受不了亚马逊。
At some point, the crowd seems to hear themselves cheering wildly for organized labor and against corporatists.
在某些时候，人群似乎听到自己为有组织的劳工和反对法团主义者而疯狂欢呼。
And it does get a little more strained-feeling in the room.
房间里确实给人一种更紧张的感觉。
There are no consequences for the company, only the worker.
这对公司没有任何影响，只有员工受到影响。
Right to work!
工作权利！
Right to work!
工作权利！
Someone is heckling the Teamster president kind of wonkily by screaming out the name of a policy that Teamsters hate.
有人通过尖叫出卡车司机讨厌的政策名称来奇怪地质问卡车司机总裁。
Right to work is a shot directly into the heart of unions' ability to organize.
工作权是对工会组织能力核心的直接打击。
It's at the very center of Republican labor policy.
它是共和党劳工政策的核心。
Right to work allows workers to work in a union shop without having to pay union dues.
工作权允许工人在工会商店工作而无需缴纳工会会费。
Advocates of the policy say workers should get to choose what they want.
该政策的支持者表示，工人们应该可以选择自己想要的东西。
Unions hate it because they say workers then get the benefits of the contract without paying for it.
工会讨厌它，因为他们说工人无需支付费用即可获得合同的好处。
It undercuts their power.
它削弱了他们的权力。
There's over 150 Republicans co-sponsoring right-to-work bills in Congress right now.
目前有超过 150 名共和党人在国会共同提出工作权法案。
Trump has said he supports right to work.
特朗普表示他支持工作权。
Sean O'Brien continues to slam big business.
肖恩·奥布莱恩继续猛烈抨击大企业。
And I'm almost expecting him to talk about Bernie's millionaires and billionaires.
我几乎期待他谈论伯尼的百万富翁和亿万富翁。
The applause in the room is getting weaker.
房间里的掌声越来越弱。
These companies offer no real health insurance, no retirement benefits, no pay leave, relying on underfunded public assistance.
这些公司不提供真正的健康保险、退休福利、带薪休假，依赖资金不足的公共援助。
And who foots the bill?
谁买单？
The individual taxpayer.
个人纳税人。
The biggest recipients of welfare in this country are corporations.
这个国家最大的福利受益者是企业。
And this is real corruption.
这是真正的腐败。
We must put workers first.
我们必须把工人放在第一位。
By the end of the speech, Todd's feeling about this guy he'd never heard of before--
演讲结束时，托德对这个他以前从未听说过的人有了感觉——
He's knocking it out of the park.
他正在把它从公园里敲出来。
I'm glad I stuck around and listened to him.
我很高兴我留下来听他说话。
Thanks.
谢谢。
When I talked to O'Brien after the speech, in the lobby of the grand Pfister Hotel, I wanted to know if he felt what I was feeling, about the awkwardness in the room, the uncertain silence, when he started wailing on the Chamber of Commerce and big American companies.
演讲结束后，在菲斯特大酒店的大厅里，我与奥布莱恩交谈时，我想知道他是否也有我的感受，当他开始对商会和美国大公司发出哀嚎时，房间里的尴尬、不确定的沉默。
Did you feel a feeling in the room like this is going over weird?
你有没有感觉到房间里有一种奇怪的感觉？
Not at all.
一点也不。
Not at all.
一点也不。
I mean, I felt real comfortable.
我的意思是，我感觉很舒服。
I knew that-- it's like anything else.
我知道这一点——就像其他事情一样。
If you're in a crowd and someone's talking about a situation and you may think you are the subject of it or you may think that pertains to you, it may be a little bit more uncomfortable for them than it was for me.
如果你在人群中，有人正在谈论某种情况，而你可能认为你是其中的主题，或者你可能认为这与你有关，那么他们可能会比我更不舒服。
Overall, he feels pretty great about the speech.
总的来说，他对这次演讲感觉非常好。
He got his message out.
他传达了他的信息。
He thinks that now, he'll get calls from Republican legislators who weren't meeting with him before.
他认为现在他会接到以前没有与他会面的共和党议员的电话。
Like, there's this one Senate bill right now that the big unions are really fighting for.
就像，现在有一项参议院法案是大工会真正争取的。
It's called the PRO Act, Protecting the Right to Organize Act.
它被称为 PRO 法案，保护组织权法案。
It's all Democrats.
都是民主党人。
There's not a single Republican signer onto that bill.
没有一个共和党人签署该法案。
Not yet.
还没有。
Not yet, but we're working on it.
还没有，但我们正在努力。
Right.
正确的。
Sean O'Brien Right.
肖恩·奥布莱恩 对。
So if you know you're not going to get support-- it's not going to pass-- wouldn't it make sense to figure out what could pass bipartisan?
因此，如果你知道自己不会获得支持——它不会通过——那么弄清楚什么可以通过两党合作难道不是有意义的吗？
Yeah.
是的。
So do you think you got people in that room to reconsider?
那么你认为你让那个房间里的人重新考虑了吗？
I know that for a fact.
我知道这是事实。
Zoe Chace How do you know?
佐伊·切斯 你怎么知道？
Can you give me an example?
你能举个例子吗？
Sean O'Brien I cannot, but stay tuned.
肖恩·奥布莱恩（Sean O'Brien） 我不能，但请继续关注。
Now, the very next day, the Teamsters announced there was a new co-sponsor of the House version of the bill, a third Republican House member from Oregon.
现在，就在第二天，卡车司机们宣布众议院版本的法案有一位新的共同提案人，来自俄勒冈州的第三位共和党众议院议员。
Because of the speech?
因为演讲？
We don't know.
我们不知道。
Rick Smith, the 35-year Teamster with the radio show, watched the convention, watched the speech from his union president, and I called him afterwards.
里克·史密斯 (Rick Smith) 是一名 35 岁的卡车司机，在广播节目中观看了大会，观看了工会主席的演讲，之后我给他打了电话。
I fear he did everything that I thought he was going to do, because, look, I don't think anybody remembers what he says tomorrow other than, Trump's a tough SOB.
我担心他做了我认为他会做的一切，因为，看，我认为没有人记得他明天说的话，除了特朗普是个强硬的SOB。
There may be a quote, but what they're going to remember is he was there for Donald Trump.
可能会有一句话，但他们会记住的是他是为了唐纳德·特朗普而存在的。
Rick saw Sean's speech as just another piece of the political theater playing out at the RNC, more working man cosplay, like Trump's selection of JD Vance as vice president, in his opinion.
里克认为肖恩的演讲只是共和党全国委员会上演的另一场政治戏剧，更像是工人的角色扮演，就像特朗普选择 JD 万斯担任副总统一样。
Sean O'Brien praised Vance in his speech.
肖恩·奥布莱恩在演讲中赞扬了万斯。
Vance's brand is kind of made-in-America economic populism.
万斯的品牌是一种美国制造的经济民粹主义。
He famously walked a UAW picket line in Toledo.
他因在托莱多参加美国汽车工人联合会纠察线而闻名。
I go back to this idea that there are Republicans that support labor.
我回到这个想法，即有共和党人支持工党。
JD Vance walked a picket line.
JD 万斯走在纠察线上。
Yeah, OK, he walked the picket line.
是的，好吧，他走在纠察线上。
But he doesn't support workers' right to organize.
但他不支持工人的组织权。
And I know he'll give on something here or there.
我知道他会在这里或那里做出一些贡献。
But ultimately, this is a guy who's not a friend of labor.
但归根结底，这个人不是劳工的朋友。
And it seems simple to me.
对我来说这似乎很简单。
These are the people who are going to put the final nail in the coffin of the labor movement.
这些人将为劳工运动的棺材钉上最后一颗钉子。
And I think he gave them the kind of fodder that they can use.
我认为他给了他们他们可以使用的饲料。
It's like handing an ax murderer an ax and then being surprised.
这就像递给斧头杀人犯一把斧头然后感到惊讶一样。
What does Trump always say about a snake biting you because a snake is a snake, right?
关于蛇咬你，特朗普总是怎么说，因为蛇就是蛇，对吗？
Right, and this is-- that's these people's nature.
对啊，这就是，这就是这些人的本性。
O'Brien's response is, maybe the snake is changing.
奥布莱恩的回答是，也许蛇正在改变。
We can make them change.
我们可以让他们改变。
Parties change.
政党发生变化。
You can't get things done if that's your uncompromising approach.
如果这是你不妥协的方法，你就无法把事情做好。
I mean, look, you look at the Democratic Party 20 years ago as compared to now, I think we can all agree there's been significant change.
我的意思是，看看 20 年前的民主党与现在相比，我想我们都同意发生了重大变化。
Conversely, you look at the Republican Party 20 years ago and look at it today, I mean, there's been significant change.
相反，你看看20年前的共和党，再看看今天，我的意思是，发生了重大变化。
But you don't have to go back 20 years in this case, with this election.
但就这次选举而言，你不必回到 20 年前。
You can look at the Biden administration and the Trump administration.
你可以看看拜登政府和特朗普政府。
And one is more pro-labor than the other.
其中一个比另一个更支持劳工。
There's no doubt about that.
毫无疑问。
And I can speak to that all day long.
我可以整天谈论这个。
I mean, President Biden fixed pensions, brought a lot of work, passed the CHIPS Act, infrastructure bill, all that stuff.
我的意思是，拜登总统固定了养老金，带来了很多工作，通过了《CHIPS 法案》、基础设施法案，等等。
There's no doubt.
毫无疑问。
But that doesn't mean that we can't work with anybody else that doesn't have the same labor record.
但这并不意味着我们不能与没有相同劳动记录的其他人合作。
And maybe they can-- obviously, if they have the opportunity, they can do good things for working people as well.
也许他们可以——显然，如果他们有机会，他们也可以为劳动人民做一些好事。
This sounds either wickedly pragmatic or hopelessly naive.
这听起来要么过于务实，要么极其天真。
But however much the Democrats and Joe Biden have done for organized labor, the Democrats could definitely lose in November.
但无论民主党和乔·拜登为劳工组织做了多少努力，民主党在 11 月肯定会失败。
And Trump, who was sitting right across the hall from O'Brien up on stage performing, watching him closely with that martyred ear, he might be the guy he'll have to negotiate with.
特朗普坐在奥布莱恩的对面，在舞台上表演，用那只受难的耳朵仔细观察着他，他可能是他必须与之谈判的人。
Act two, Out on a Limb.
第二幕，孤注一掷。
You know who July hasn't been so great for?
你知道七月对谁来说不那么美好吗？
The Democratic politicians who were out front before anybody, publicly calling for President Biden to drop out of the election.
民主党政客们在任何人面前都站出来公开呼吁拜登总统退出选举。
Out of 260 Democrats who sit in the House and Senate, only 21 stepped forward, 20 from the House of Representatives and one senator, for the first three weeks after the presidential debate.
在总统辩论后的前三周，众议院和参议院的 260 名民主党人中，只有 21 人站出来，其中 20 人来自众议院，1 人来自参议员。
No Democratic governors.
没有民主党州长。
No former presidents.
没有前任总统。
But this small group called for Biden to drop out, hoping an army was going to form behind them.
但这个小团体呼吁拜登退出，希望在他们身后组建一支军队。
Then a week passed, then another week, and the battalions did not show up.
一周过去了，又一周，各营都没有出现。
They hung out there by themselves.
他们自己在那里闲逛。
Finally, at the end of this week, we heard about big names in the party, Pelosi, Schumer, Jeffries, behind the scenes, urging the president to step aside.
最后，在本周末，我们听到党内大人物佩洛西、舒默、杰弗里斯在幕后敦促总统下台。
With that cover, going into the weekend, the number of elected lawmakers started edging up very slowly.
有了这个封面，进入周末，当选议员的人数开始缓慢增加。
And finally, of course, Joe Biden bowed out of the race.
最后，当然，乔·拜登退出了竞选。
But it took over three weeks for things to get to this point.
但事情到了这一步，花了三周多的时间。
So what was it like for the people who stuck their necks out and waited?
那么，那些伸出脖子等待的人又是怎样的呢？
Well, Congressman Seth Moulton agreed to talk to me about all that.
好吧，国会议员塞思·莫尔顿同意和我谈论这一切。
He's a Democrat from Massachusetts, a rising star in the party, had a brief presidential run himself in 2020, a former Marine who served four tours in Iraq.
他是来自马萨诸塞州的民主党人，是党内一颗冉冉升起的新星，曾在 2020 年短暂竞选过总统，曾是一名海军陆战队员，曾四次前往伊拉克服役。
In fact, he led a platoon in the first company to enter Baghdad.
事实上，他率领第一连的一个排进入巴格达。
Years ago, he did a memorable interview on our program about this interpreter who he worked with and got close to in Iraq who ended up coming to the States and living in Moulton's childhood home with his parents.
几年前，他在我们的节目中对一位翻译进行了一次令人难忘的采访，这位翻译与他在伊拉克合作并关系密切，最终来到美国并与父母一起住在莫尔顿童年的家里。
Basically, he became part of their family while waiting to get asylum because of all the death threats against him for collaborating with Americans.
基本上，他在等待获得庇护时成为了他们家庭的一员，因为他因与美国人合作而受到死亡威胁。
Joe Biden took an interest in Seth Moulton back when Moulton first ran for Congress in 2014, when Biden was vice president.
2014 年，当莫尔顿首次竞选国会议员时，乔·拜登就对塞斯·莫尔顿产生了兴趣，当时拜登还是副总统。
Biden went to Massachusetts to do a rally endorsing him.
拜登前往马萨诸塞州举行集会支持他。
And they rode in a car together, where Moulton says the vice president offered him half of his peanut butter and jelly sandwich.
他们一起坐了一辆车，莫尔顿说副总统给了他一半的花生酱和果冻三明治。
And he was not sure if you're supposed to say no to that offer from the vice president.
他不确定你是否应该拒绝副总统的提议。
So he said yes.
所以他说是的。
Moulton's age and his military experience, Moulton says Biden's told him a few times he reminds him of his son, Beau.
莫尔顿的年龄和他的军事经验，莫尔顿说，拜登曾多次告诉他，他让他想起了他的儿子博。
Moulton and I spoke this past Monday, July 15.
莫尔顿和我于 7 月 15 日星期一进行了交谈。
He told me the story of turning his back on Joe Biden starts, of course, on debate night.
他告诉我，他背弃乔·拜登的故事当然是从辩论之夜开始的。
Well, I think, like most Americans, I felt the debate was an unmitigated disaster for President Biden.
嗯，我认为，像大多数美国人一样，我认为这场辩论对拜登总统来说是一场彻头彻尾的灾难。
I mean, we all remember the times he couldn't keep his train of thought.
我的意思是，我们都记得他无法保持思路的时候。
He lost his place.
他失去了自己的位置。
He seemed incoherent.
他看上去语无伦次。
I thought one of the most remarkable moments was when he literally took our best issue, abortion, and pivoted immediately to our worst issue, immigration.
我认为最引人注目的时刻之一是他真正解决了我们最好的问题——堕胎，并立即转向我们最糟糕的问题——移民。
I mean, you almost couldn't make it up.
我的意思是，你几乎无法弥补。
I want to ask you a question that I worry might be a little awkward for you to answer.
我想问你一个问题，我担心你回答起来可能有点尴尬。
And I hope you can answer it honestly.
我希望你能诚实地回答。
The side of President Biden that we all saw on television that night during the debate-- you're in DC.
那天晚上辩论期间，我们都在电视上看到了拜登总统的一面——你们在华盛顿。
You hear a lot of things, I'm sure.
我确信你听到了很多事情。
Had you seen that side of him before that night?
那天晚上之前你见过他的另一面吗？
Had you heard about that side of him before that night?
那天晚上之前你听说过他的另一面吗？
Is that something people talk about?
这是人们谈论的事情吗？
Yes.
是的。
Yes, it is.
是的。
I've seen the president fairly regularly as a member of Congress, although it does feel like his staff is hiding him far more than they used to.
作为国会议员，我经常见到总统，尽管确实感觉他的工作人员比以前更加隐藏他。
But I've seen a dramatic change, in particular over the last several months.
但我看到了巨大的变化，特别是在过去的几个月里。
I saw him at the White House Christmas Ball.
我在白宫圣诞舞会上见过他。
And he looked older and frailer.
而且他看起来更老了，也更虚弱了。
But he was excited to see me, quickly recounted things we've done together or whatnot.
但他很高兴见到我，很快就讲述了我们一起做过的事情等等。
Then I saw him, most recently, just a few weeks ago in Normandy, for the 80th anniversary of D-Day.
然后我最近一次见到他，是几周前在诺曼底，庆祝诺曼底登陆 80 周年。
He was speaking with a small group of us.
他正在与我们一小群人交谈。
And the change was pretty dramatic.
这种变化是相当戏剧性的。
How so?
为何如此？
Seth Moulton Well, it was more like the things that we saw in the debate.
塞斯·莫尔顿（Seth Moulton）：嗯，这更像是我们在辩论中看到的事情。
Not that bad, but more in that direction.
没那么糟糕，但更多的是朝这个方向发展。
Like him having a hard time summoning the words for things?
就像他很难用语言表达事物一样？
Yeah, more like that, yes.
是的，更像是这样，是的。
But as someone who's been a very long-time Joe Biden fan, as someone who's admired him, as someone who's been a mentee of his, it was hard to see.
但作为一个长期是乔·拜登粉丝的人，作为一个钦佩他的人，作为一个曾经是他的学员的人，很难看出这一点。
And it was concerning, to the point where, although I don't think there's a single American who expected what we saw the night of that debate, I wasn't entirely surprised.
令人担忧的是，尽管我认为没有一个美国人预料到我们在辩论当晚所看到的情况，但我并不完全感到惊讶。
So when we came back to the House floor the next day, everyone was sharing the same view.
因此，当我们第二天回到众议院时，每个人都持有相同的观点。
I didn't speak to anyone who thought it was OK other than Speaker Pelosi, who just said, well, I don't know that we can judge a campaign by one debate.
除了佩洛西议长之外，我没有和任何认为这可以接受的人交谈，佩洛西只是说，好吧，我不知道我们可以通过一场辩论来判断一场竞选。
But I really felt she had to say that.
但我真的觉得她必须这么说。
Party leaders are in a little bit different position.
党的领导人的立场略有不同。
But all of us in the rank and file thought it was a total disaster.
但我们所有普通员工都认为这完全是一场灾难。
And I think most of us were clear that the only way forward for Democrats to have a chance in this election is to get a new nominee at the top of the ticket.
我认为我们大多数人都清楚，民主党在这次选举中有机会的唯一出路就是让一位新的提名人成为首选。
Over the next few days, Moulton says, he tried to call everybody he knew in the White House, anybody close to the inner circle, to express his concerns about the president's performance and the path ahead.
莫尔顿说，在接下来的几天里，他试图给白宫里所有他认识的人、任何与核心圈子关系密切的人打电话，表达他对总统表现和未来道路的担忧。
I made a lot of phone calls.
我打了很多电话。
And I got nothing in response.
我没有得到任何回应。
Now, I'm not offended by that.
现在，我对此并不生气。
I don't want to come across as thinking that the White House should return my phone calls.
我不想给人留下认为白宫应该回我电话的印象。
But given the circumstances, you'd expect some low-level aide to just give me a call and say, we've heard your concerns.
但考虑到这种情况，你可能会期望一些低级别助手给我打电话说，我们已经听到了你的担忧。
Here's what we're doing about them.
这就是我们正在对他们做的事情。
But it was just a wall of silence.
但这只是一堵沉默的墙。
What did that say to you?
这对你说了什么？
Seth Moulton It said to me that they're not taking this seriously.
Seth Moulton：它对我说，他们并没有认真对待这件事。
We needed to hear a new plan.
我们需要听到一个新计划。
And first, you just simply need to hear that they're being honest about the situation at hand.
首先，您只需要听到他们对当前情况的诚实态度即可。
But I wasn't hearing any of that.
但我没有听到任何这些。
When I came home to Massachusetts, I held a Zoom meeting with a lot of local Democratic officials.
当我回到马萨诸塞州的家中时，我与许多当地的民主党官员举行了一次 Zoom 会议。
And these are people who tend to be very establishment players.
这些人往往都是非常保守的人。
They want to stick with the status quo, by and large.
总的来说，他们希望维持现状。
So I expected the majority of them to be in favor of Biden remaining on the ticket.
因此，我预计他们中的大多数人都会支持拜登继续参选。
I'd say it was about 80% in favor of his stepping aside.
我想说大约有 80% 的人支持他下台。
That was powerful as well.
那也很强大。
It's five days after the debate before the first Democratic lawmaker calls for Biden to step down.
辩论结束五天后，首位民主党议员呼吁拜登下台。
A day later, a second one does.
一天后，第二个也成功了。
That same night, Moulton releases a very polite, pretty hedgey statement saying, "I have grave concerns about President Biden's ability to defeat Donald Trump," and then going on to say if the president can't demonstrate that he can do a better job prosecuting the case against Trump, quote, "We should have all viable options on the table." So that goes out.
同一天晚上，莫尔顿发表了一份非常礼貌、相当谨慎的声明，称“我对拜登总统击败唐纳德·特朗普的能力感到严重担忧”，然后接着说，如果总统不能证明他可以更好地起诉特朗普的案件，他引用的话是：“我们应该把所有可行的选择摆在桌面上。”这样就消失了。
But then later that night, I showed my statement to a friend who was visiting, a Marine.
但那天晚上晚些时候，我向一位来访的海军陆战队员朋友展示了我的陈述。
And this great friend of mine, who I trust for advice, he read it, and he said, what are you trying to say?
我的这位好朋友，我信任他的建议，他读了这本书，他说，你想说什么？
I said, well, I'm basically saying that he should step aside.
我说，好吧，我基本上是说他应该让位。
And he said, well, then why don't you just say it, Seth?
他说，好吧，那你为什么不直接说出来呢，塞斯？
And I gave him this long explanation for why being polite was the appropriate thing to do here and actually more likely to result in mission accomplishment.
我给了他这么长的解释，解释为什么礼貌是在这里应该做的适当的事情，而且实际上更有可能导致任务的完成。
Let's be respectful of the president and push him gently in the right position, not be so explicit.
让我们尊重总统并温和地把他推到正确的位置，而不是那么明确。
But I thought about it a lot that night.
但那天晚上我想了很多。
And I woke up thinking about it the next morning.
第二天早上我醒来时就在想这件事。
And I decided, if I honestly think he should step aside, then you know what?
我决定，如果我真的认为他应该让位，那么你知道吗？
I should just say it.
我应该这么说。
And so the next morning on the one interview I did, a local NPR station--
第二天早上，在我接受的一次采访中，当地一家 NPR 电台——
WBUR.
WBUR。
Seth Moulton When we were talking about the statement, I just simply added those few words.
塞思·莫尔顿（Seth Moulton）当我们谈论该声明时，我只是简单地添加了这几句话。
He should step aside.
他应该靠边站。
And with that, Seth Moulton became the third Democrat to demand the president step down.
至此，塞思·莫尔顿成为第三位要求总统下台的民主党人。
He told me he didn't expect tons of his colleagues to join him and follow suit, even though so many of them agreed that Biden should step aside.
他告诉我，他没想到会有很多同事加入他的行列并效仿，尽管他们中很多人都同意拜登应该下台。
That's just how Congress works, he says.
他说，这就是国会的运作方式。
He's in other situations where his colleagues agree on important stuff behind the scenes but don't take a public stand.
在其他情况下，他的同事在幕后就重要问题达成一致，但不公开表明立场。
I didn't, frankly, expect a lot of people to jump right in with me.
坦率地说，我并没有期望很多人会立即加入我的行列。
But I mean, I'm sorry to admit that.
但我的意思是，我很遗憾地承认这一点。
And so what happened?
那么发生了什么？
Watching the news, I really wondered if, for somebody like you, if after making a statement like that-- you're walking through the halls of Congress.
看着新闻，我真的想知道，对于像你这样的人来说，在发表这样的声明之后，你是否正在穿过国会大厅。
You're going down to the floor.
你要下到地板上。
Are you, like, a pariah?
你是一个贱民吗？
Are people not meeting your eye?
人们不看你的眼睛吗？
What's it like?
它是什么样的？
Well, it was interesting.
嗯，这很有趣。
I was very curious what would happen the first time I came back to Washington and walked out onto the House floor for votes that evening.
我很好奇当我第一次回到华盛顿并在那天晚上走到众议院投票时会发生什么。
And it did seem like people were just avoiding me, like they didn't want to be caught in a conversation.
人们确实似乎只是在回避我，就像他们不想被卷入谈话一样。
But it was totally different as soon as I walked into the cloakroom, in other words, away from the reporters and the TV cameras.
但当我走进衣帽间，即远离记者和电视摄像机时，情况就完全不同了。
And people had a lot of nice things to say.
人们有很多好话要说。
He says he did try to lobby some of his colleagues, told him they should come forward publicly also.
他说他确实试图游说他的一些同事，告诉他他们也应该公开站出来。
And a few did.
有一些人做到了。
But generally, most did not.
但一般来说，大多数人没有。
And why not?
为什么不呢？
Fear, best as he can tell.
恐惧，据他所知是最清楚的。
They were scared of ticking off the president and his team, of going against the Democratic establishment, of sticking their necks out.
他们害怕激怒总统和他的团队，害怕与民主党建制派作对，害怕冒险。
That fear is not entirely unreasonable.
这种担心并非完全没有道理。
Michigan Congresswoman Hillary Scholten was kicked out of a Democratic Party planning meeting to coordinate get-out-the-vote efforts because, Politico reported, the Michigan State Democratic Party didn't like the fact that she called on President Biden to step down.
据《Politico》报道，密歇根州女议员希拉里·肖尔滕被踢出民主党协调投票工作的计划会议，因为密歇根州民主党不喜欢她呼吁拜登总统下台。
Moulton told me the main time he heard anybody make any kind of principled argument against speaking out was at a meeting of the Democratic caucus.
莫尔顿告诉我，他主要一次听到有人提出反对发言的原则性论点，是在民主党核心小组会议上。
This is Democratic members of the House.
这是众议院的民主党议员。
They met 12 days after the debate to discuss Biden.
他们在辩论后 12 天会面讨论拜登。
People who were concerned about the chaos or supposed chaos of what might come next, the people who were unsure whether this should go directly to Vice President Harris or should be some sort of open mini-primary, as James Carville and Jim Clyburn have suggested.
那些担心接下来可能发生的混乱或所谓的混乱的人，那些不确定这是否应该直接交给副总统哈里斯的人，或者应该像詹姆斯·卡维尔和吉姆·克莱伯恩所建议的那样，进行某种公开的小型初选的人。
Moulton spoke at that meeting.
莫尔顿在那次会议上发表了讲话。
And afterwards, he says, colleagues who were not sticking their necks out publicly continued to tell him that they liked what he was saying and doing in public.
他说，后来，那些没有在公开场合伸出援手的同事继续告诉他，他们喜欢他在公共场合的言论和做法。
Do you feel impatient or frustrated with them?
您对他们感到不耐烦或沮丧吗？
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
I mean, I'll be honest.
我的意思是，我会说实话。
Look, I know people have very different political backgrounds and constituencies to represent.
看，我知道人们有非常不同的政治背景和代表的选区。
I know some people are hearing more folks back home who just want Biden to stay in the race.
我知道有些人听到更多的人在国内只想让拜登留在竞选中。
At least, I'm guessing that they do.
至少，我猜他们是这样的。
And what is your read of the politics of this?
您对此有何看法？
Like, you're in a safe Democratic district or a pretty safe Democratic district.
就像，你在一个安全的民主党选区或一个相当安全的民主党选区。
Is this good for you politically?
这在政治上对你有好处吗？
Like, calls and emails and texts and stuff to your office, are they mostly people supporting you, coming out and saying this about the president?
比如，给你办公室打电话、发电子邮件、发短信等等，他们大多是支持你的人，站出来谈论总统吗？
Interestingly, the calls and messages we've received from people in the district are very supportive.
有趣的是，我们从该地区的人们那里收到的电话和信息都非常支持。
It's just, thank you for saying what we all saw.
只是，谢谢你说出我们都看到的事情。
But there seems to be some kind of organized campaign nationally to attack me, because a lot of the messages on social media, on Twitter, and to our office that come from outside the district have been highly critical.
但全国范围内似乎有某种有组织的运动来攻击我，因为社交媒体、推特上以及我们办公室上来自学区外的许多信息都非常批评。
Wait, wait.
等等，等等。
Do you think it's possible that your own party or your own president is organizing people to yell at you online?
你认为你自己的政党或你自己的总统有可能组织人们在网上对你大喊大叫吗？
I mean, that's pretty standard practice, I think.
我的意思是，我认为这是相当标准的做法。
I don't know if that's exactly what's happening right now, or it's just self-organizing groups, or even Twitter bots.
我不知道这是否就是现在正在发生的事情，或者这只是自组织团体，甚至是 Twitter 机器人。
I mean, I don't really know.
我的意思是，我真的不知道。
We haven't spent a lot of time digging into it.
我们没有花很多时间去深入研究它。
For a lot of us reading news reports during the three weeks before President Biden dropped out, as the days rolled on and President Biden kept insisting that he didn't think he lost any ground in the race and he wasn't going to listen to anybody but himself on this, the chances of him actually leaving the race seemed to get more and more remote.
对于我们很多在拜登总统退出竞选前三周阅读新闻报道的人来说，随着日子一天天过去，拜登总统一直坚称他不认为自己在竞选中失去了任何优势，而且他不会听除了他自己之外的任何人的意见，他真正退出竞选的机会似乎变得越来越渺茫。
But this past Monday, Congressman Moulton told me that from where he sat, the whole thing was still very much an open question, even after the assassination attempt on Donald Trump and that photo with his fist in the air.
但上周一，国会议员莫尔顿告诉我，从他坐的位置来看，整件事在很大程度上仍然是一个悬而未决的问题，即使是在唐纳德·特朗普遭到暗杀以及那张举起拳头的照片之后。
I mean, look, from my narrow perspective, and the phone calls I've received, it's intensified calls for President Biden to step aside.
我的意思是，从我狭隘的角度来看，以及我收到的电话，要求拜登总统下台的呼声越来越高。
It's going to be even harder for Democrats to win after that attempted assassination.
在那次暗杀未遂事件之后，民主党想要获胜将变得更加困难。
And so how do we increase pressure on the White House?
那么我们如何加大对白宫的压力呢？
I understand that you were on a phone call that President Biden was on this weekend.
据我所知，您正在接听拜登总统本周末的电话。
What can you say about that?
对此你能说什么？
It was a Zoom meeting.
这是一场 Zoom 会议。
And he was speaking with the new Democratic coalition.
他正在与新的民主党联盟交谈。
And well, there were a few dozen of us on with him.
好吧，我们有几十个人和他在一起。
And I'm not going to share details of a confidential meeting.
我不会透露秘密会议的细节。
But I'll just say that it was discouraging.
但我只想说这令人沮丧。
It left me feeling affirmed of my position and felt like things are bad and getting worse.
这让我对自己的立场感到肯定，并感觉事情很糟糕并且变得更糟。
I mean, this was not a high-stakes debate.
我的意思是，这不是一场高风险的辩论。
This was just a low-stakes conversation with a bunch of fellow Democrats.
这只是与一群民主党同僚的一次低风险对话。
But it didn't go terribly well for the president.
但对于总统来说，事情进展得不太顺利。
How so?
为何如此？
Seth Moulton It just seemed like he's not taking our concerns seriously, making a lot of excuses, on the one hand, citing polls that say he's doing better while dismissing all the bad polls by saying polls don't matter, and just continuing to refuse to answer this question about, how are you going to turn things around, sir?
塞思·莫尔顿：他似乎没有认真对待我们的担忧，找了很多借口，一方面引用民意调查说他做得更好，另一方面又驳斥所有糟糕的民意调查，说民意调查无关紧要，只是继续拒绝回答这个问题：先生，你将如何扭转局面？
So as we record this, it's Monday, July 15.
当我们记录这一点时，时间是 7 月 15 日星期一。
19 members of Congress and one senator are with you, basically, in total, calling for President Biden to step down.
基本上总共有 19 名国会议员和一名参议员与你站在一起，呼吁拜登总统下台。
And then the rest of the Democratic Party elected officials are on the other side.
然后其他民主党民选官员则站在另一边。
How is that feeling?
那种感觉怎么样？
Well, first of all, that's just not an accurate characterization.
嗯，首先，这并不是一个准确的描述。
19 plus 1 are public.
19加1是公开的。
The majority are with me.
大多数人都支持我。
And so therefore, how does it feel?
那么，感觉如何？
It feels frustrating.
感觉很沮丧。
Can I ask you, are you in a sort of a perverse situation, where, when you watch the president now on TV, you're sort of hoping for him to slip up?
我能问你，你是否处于一种反常的境地，当你现在在电视上看到总统时，你有点希望他犯错？
Like, if he slips up more, it'll speed--
就像，如果他失误得更多，速度就会加快——
No. No, no no. Ira Glass --him on the path towards having to step down?
不，不，不，不。艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）——他正走向下台吗？
It's an interesting question.
这是一个有趣的问题。
No, I'm not hoping the president will slip up.
不，我不希望总统会犯错。
But I am hoping that something happens to push him over the edge, just to make him realize, to face reality here.
但我希望发生一些事情把他推到悬崖边，让他意识到，要面对这里的现实。
I think it's important to say, Ira, that I genuinely love Joe Biden.
艾拉，我认为重要的是要说我真的爱乔·拜登。
He's been a great mentor to me.
他对我来说是一位伟大的导师。
He's consistently given me great advice.
他一直给我很好的建议。
I have nothing but good things to say about Joe Biden.
对于乔·拜登，我只有好话要说。
Is there some moment between you that especially stands out or you think captures what it's like being-- or what it was like in the past between you and him?
你们之间是否有某个时刻特别引人注目，或者你认为捕捉到了你和他之间的存在感，或者过去的感觉？
President Biden used to have me over for breakfast when he was vice president.
拜登总统在担任副总统时经常请我来吃早餐。
We'd sit at his residence.
我们会坐在他的住处。
And of course, breakfast was always scheduled for about an hour and it would go for close to three.
当然，早餐总是安排在一个小时左右，实际上会持续到接近三个小时。
And he would regale me with stories from his time in the Senate and the lessons that he's learned about politics over the years.
他会向我讲述他在参议院的经历以及多年来他在政治方面学到的教训。
I'd ask very serious questions, pose situations where I needed advice.
我会问非常严肃的问题，提出我需要建议的情况。
And he genuinely took me under his wing.
他真诚地把我保护在他的羽翼之下。
It felt like he was invested in me personally.
感觉就像他对我个人进行了投资。
Now, there are hundreds of people in politics who know Joe Biden better than I.
现在，政界有数百人比我更了解乔·拜登。
I'm still relatively new to this whole thing.
我对这整件事还比较陌生。
But I like him a lot.
但我很喜欢他。
I could tell that he cared.
我看得出来他很关心。
Knowing him to the degree that you do, are you surprised that he won't give up?
以你对他的了解程度，你对他不放弃感到惊讶吗？
He's incredibly tenacious.
他非常顽强。
But I also know he's dedicated to our country.
但我也知道他致力于我们的国家。
And there's a well-worn phrase in the Marines that they try to drill into you day after day in training, which is, it's not about you.
海军陆战队有一句老生常谈的话，他们试图在日复一日的训练中向你灌输，那就是，这与你无关。
And that's my fundamental message to President Biden today, is, sir, this is not about you.
这是我今天向拜登总统传达的基本信息，先生，这与你无关。
You're an amazing president.
你是一位了不起的总统。
You've been an incredible senator.
你是一位令人难以置信的参议员。
You've done so much for the United States of America.
你为美利坚合众国做了很多事情。
And now, the best thing you can do is to step aside and give us just a little bit better chance at defeating Donald Trump and winning this election.
现在，你能做的最好的事情就是退到一边，让我们有更好的机会击败唐纳德·特朗普并赢得这次选举。
Congressman Seth Moulton from Massachusetts.
来自马萨诸塞州的国会议员塞思·莫尔顿。
Again, we spoke on Monday, well before the president decided to step down.
周一，在总统决定下台之前，我们再次进行了交谈。
Coming up, typing with your pinkies, how it has the power to make you rethink everything about your own sister.
来吧，用你的小指打字，它如何有力量让你重新思考关于你自己妹妹的一切。
We have a true-life example.
我们有一个真实的例子。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program, The Big Rethink, stories of people reconsidering something fundamental about themselves and the way they see themselves and what happens next.
今天的节目《大反思》讲述了人们重新思考关于自己的一些基本问题、他们看待自己的方式以及接下来会发生什么的故事。
We've arrived at Act Three of our show.
我们已经到了节目的第三幕了。
Act three, Anything You Can Do, I Can Do Backwards.
第三幕，你能做的任何事情，我都能倒着做。
OK, so in this time of country-defining decisions, we close our show out today with yet another story of critical import about two sisters and their pinkies, a story Elna Baker stumbled on.
好吧，在这个决定国家决定的时刻，我们以另一个关于两姐妹和她们的小指的重要故事结束今天的节目，这是埃尔娜·贝克偶然发现的一个故事。
I was chatting with a friend of a friend, Zoe Kushlefsky, at a bar when she casually mentioned she was about to attempt to break the world record for speed typing the alphabet using only her pinkies.
我正在一家酒吧与朋友的朋友佐伊·库什莱夫斯基 (Zoe Kushlefsky) 聊天时，她漫不经心地提到她即将尝试打破仅用小指快速输入字母的世界纪录。
It took me a minute to process.
我花了一分钟来处理。
There's a world record for typing with your pinkies?
用小指打字有世界纪录吗？
How do you even know that's a thing?
你怎么知道那是一件事？
Where does that idea even come from?
这个想法从何而来？
And that's when Zoe said--
就在那时佐伊说——
My sister.
我的妹妹。
I stole it.
我偷了它。
Elna Baker Sisters-- so twisted, right?
艾尔娜·贝克姐妹——太扭曲了，对吧？
My sister has something, and I want to take it from her.
我姐姐有一样东西，我想从她那里拿走。
Here's how it all started.
这就是一切的开始。
One day, Zoe's sister, Eliza, texted her this.
有一天，佐伊的姐姐伊丽莎给她发了一条短信。
"LOL, I don't know if you heard, but I broke a world record tonight, fastest time typing the alphabet backwards with my pinky fingers.
“哈哈，我不知道你是否听说过，但今晚我打破了一项世界纪录，用我的小指向后输入字母的最快时间。
LOL, I did it in 6.31 seconds.
哈哈，我用了 6.31 秒就完成了。
And the record is 9.65.
记录是9.65。
My next texts were, "LOL, what?
我的下一条短信是：“哈哈，什么？
That's so bizarre and cool.
这真是太奇怪了，也太酷了。
Bet I can do it in 6:30.
我打赌我能在 6 点 30 分内完成。
I'm going to ruin your night."
我会毁了你的夜晚。”
Wow.
哇。
So it was sort of instantaneous, your desire to take this record from her?
所以你想从她手中夺走这张唱片的愿望是瞬间发生的吗？
Yeah, I guess so.
是的，我想是的。
And I was joking, but it was coming from a true place of, I really do bet I could do it.
我是在开玩笑，但它来自真实的地方，我真的敢打赌我能做到。
Like, should I?
就像，我应该吗？
No, I shouldn't.
不，我不应该。
Unless--
除非——
So Zoe opens her laptop and gives it a try, starts typing the alphabet backwards with her pinkies.
于是佐伊打开她的笔记本电脑并尝试一下，开始用小指向后输入字母表。
She's not great, but she's improving rapidly and live-texting Eliza as she gets better.
她不是很好，但她正在迅速进步，并且随着伊丽莎的好转，她会实时发短信。
And she said, "If you keep practicing, I bet you can get it." And I said, "I think I could, too, but I would feel like an asshole, LOL." She said, "They have the same one for alphabet forwards.
她说：“如果你继续练习，我打赌你一定能成功。”我说：“我想我也可以，但我会觉得自己像个混蛋，哈哈。”她说：“他们有相同的字母表前锋。
The record is 5.7 seconds." And I said, "With pinkies?
记录是 5.7 秒。”我说，“用小指？
That would be kind of sick if I got forwards and you got backwards, LOL." Got to throw the LOL in there to soften it, as always.
如果我前进而你后退，那就有点恶心了，哈哈。”像往常一样，我必须把哈哈放在那里来软化它。
Zoe, right then and there, decided that she would go for trying to beat the record for typing the alphabet with your pinkies forward, like she's not dethroning her sister and taking her record.
佐伊当时就决定，她要努力打破小指朝前打字的记录，就像她不会推翻她姐姐并打破她的记录一样。
Because to me, that was a way to just ever so slightly sidestep the idea of coming for her gig.
因为对我来说，这是一种稍微回避参加她演出的想法的方法。
And did you think that was going to work?
你认为这会起作用吗？
Did you think that was believable?
你认为这可信吗？
No. Elna Baker There's a specific kind of mind game endemic to sisterhood.
不。埃尔娜·贝克（Elna Baker） 姐妹情谊中有一种特有的心理游戏。
And I want to use this stupid pinky thing to examine that, how something so small can blow up because of deep stuff from the past.
我想用这个愚蠢的小指东西来研究一下，如此小的东西如何会因为过去的深刻的东西而爆炸。
Like in Zoe's case, from her perspective, Eliza has always been upstaging her.
就像佐伊的例子一样，从她的角度来看，伊丽莎一直抢了她的风头。
They're both just a few years out of college, but Eliza is already a software engineer with a high-paying job.
他们都刚从大学毕业几年，但伊丽莎已经是一名软件工程师，拥有一份高薪工作。
Zoe's a nanny.
佐伊是一名保姆。
Eliza travels the world.
伊丽莎环游世界。
Zoe binge watches Vanderpump Rules.
佐伊狂看《范德庞规则》。
And Eliza's always racking up some new achievement.
伊丽莎总是取得一些新的成就。
Like, she only came up with the idea to break the world record because she needed something to do after running her first half marathon, whereas Zoe feels left behind in life.
比如，她之所以产生打破世界纪录的想法，是因为她在跑完第一个半程马拉松后需要找点事做，而佐伊则感觉自己在生活中被抛在了后面。
She moved to LA to become a TV writer but hasn't had the confidence to try yet.
她搬到洛杉矶成为一名电视编剧，但还没有信心去尝试。
And this leads me to the second thing you need to know.
这引出了你需要知道的第二件事。
The day Zoe got the text from Eliza, it was a big day for Zoe.
佐伊收到伊丽莎发来的短信的那天，对佐伊来说是一个重要的日子。
Just that afternoon, she had finished four months of treatment in a super intense eating disorder program.
就在那天下午，她完成了为期四个月的超强度饮食失调计划的治疗。
Like, I'm talking eating all my meals in the company of a therapist, basically, or a nutritionist.
就像，我说的是在治疗师或营养师的陪伴下吃所有的饭菜。
And now, I was like, OK, now it's time to work myself back into the real world.
现在，我想，好吧，现在是时候让自己回到现实世界了。
Does it feel like she's rubbing her life in your face?
是不是感觉她正在把自己的生命擦在你脸上？
Yes.
是的。
I mean, for a few good minutes, I was-- I was just kind of like, this was my-- like, I felt really proud of myself for getting through treatment.
我的意思是，在好几分钟的时间里，我——我只是有点像，这就是我——就像，我为自己经历了治疗感到非常自豪。
I felt like I had just kind of had my own accomplishment.
我觉得我已经有了自己的成就。
And that's when-- record scratch-- she got the text from Eliza, and photos.
就在那时——记录一下——她收到了伊丽莎的短信和照片。
Eliza was surrounded by friends.
伊丽莎周围都是朋友。
Everyone's raising their pinkies and celebrating.
每个人都举起小指庆祝。
And I'm sitting alone on my couch.
而我独自坐在沙发上。
No one is around me.
我周围没有人。
I'm just sitting, kind of stewing in my own emotions.
我只是坐着，沉浸在自己的情绪中。
So I was a little bit-- yeah, I was a little bitter.
所以我有点——是的，我有点痛苦。
I was like, doesn't she know it's my last day of treatment?
我当时想，她难道不知道这是我治疗的最后一天吗？
Like, doesn't she know how horrible the timing of this is?
就像，她难道不知道这个时机有多可怕吗？
I just was bitter.
我只是很苦涩。
I was just like, congratulate me.
我当时就想，恭喜我。
This isn't-- this is my moment.
这不是——这是我的时刻。
This was supposed to be my thing.
这本来应该是我的事。
So Zoe finds a typing speed website that can time her and starts rage-typing with her pinkies.
于是佐伊找到了一个可以给她计时的打字速度网站，并开始用小指疯狂打字。
To give you an idea of how absurd this looks, hold up your pinkies like Dr. Evil and try to type anything.
为了让您了解这看起来有多么荒谬，请像邪恶博士一样举起您的小指并尝试输入任何内容。
Now try to do it faster.
现在尝试做得更快。
Now faster.
现在更快了。
Now repeat that for months.
现在重复这个几个月。
Insane, right?
疯了，对吧？
But Zoe became completely fixated on winning.
但佐伊完全专注于胜利。
Zoe and Eliza are stepsisters.
佐伊和伊丽莎是继姐妹。
When Zoe was eight, her dad met Eliza's mom.
佐伊八岁时，她的父亲遇见了伊丽莎的妈妈。
And within a couple years, he lived with Eliza's mom and Eliza.
几年之内，他与伊丽莎的妈妈和伊丽莎住在一起。
Zoe would visit every other weekend.
佐伊每隔一个周末就会来一次。
Zoe was already self-conscious about her weight.
佐伊已经对自己的体重感到不自在了。
Her dad was always on her about it.
她的父亲总是对她说这件事。
And right away, she started comparing her body to Eliza's.
她立即开始将自己的身体与伊丽莎的进行比较。
Eliza, it always just seems to come naturally to.
伊丽莎，这似乎总是很自然。
She was always athletic.
她总是很运动。
She ran track.
她跑田径。
I felt like Eliza was the daughter that my dad dreamed of.
我觉得伊丽莎是我父亲梦想的女儿。
For dessert, he might serve Zoe fruit, while Eliza got pie.
作为甜点，他可能会为佐伊提供水果，而伊丽莎则提供馅饼。
There'd be little critical comments.
不会有什么批评性的评论。
Zoe's dad had been fat, lost weight his senior year of high school, and felt like it made life so much easier.
佐伊的父亲很胖，在高中四年级时减肥了，他觉得这让生活变得轻松多了。
He thought he was helping Zoe, but now sees how wrong-headed all that was.
他以为自己是在帮助佐伊，但现在他发现这一切是多么错误。
But as a teenager, Zoe decided that since Eliza was thin and got good grades and everything seemed easy for her, that Eliza was the favorite, and she was more of a burden.
但在十几岁的时候，佐伊认为，由于伊丽莎很瘦，成绩很好，而且一切对她来说都很容易，所以伊丽莎是最受欢迎的，而她更多的是一种负担。
All these past wounds ready to rip open with one ill-timed text.
所有这些过去的伤口都准备好被一篇不合时宜的短信撕开。
All this from a pinky world record.
这一切都来自小指世界纪录。
It is all connected, but it is pretty wild that all this stuff is coming up.
一切都是相互关联的，但所有这些东西的出现真是太疯狂了。
Six months go by, and Zoe's getting faster by the millisecond.
六个月过去了，佐伊的速度越来越快。
Early on, she double-checks with Eliza.
早些时候，她与伊丽莎再次确认。
Are you sure you're OK with this?
你确定你对此没问题吗？
And Eliza's like, yeah, sure.
伊丽莎说，是的，当然。
So Zoe trains on.
于是佐伊继续训练。
Finally, she's ready to go for it.
最后，她准备好了。
To officially break the record, Zoe has to video her attempt to break the record and send it into Guinness.
为了正式打破纪录，佐伊必须录制她打破纪录的尝试并将其送入吉尼斯世界纪录。
And so on the day of her first attempt, she invited friends over.
因此，在她第一次尝试的那天，她邀请了朋友过来。
I wore sweatbands around my head and my wrists because it was, like, my athletic, Olympian event.
我在头上和手腕上戴了防汗带，因为这就像我的体育奥运会比赛。
Like, your Rocky moment.
就像，你的洛奇时刻。
Zoe Kushlefsky Yeah, it was fully my Rocky moment.
佐伊·库什莱夫斯基 (Zoe Kushlefsky) 是的，这完全是我的洛基时刻。
And I should have gotten tiny little sweatbands for my pinkies.
我应该为我的小指买一条小小的吸汗带。
That was a missed opportunity.
那是一个错失的机会。
I did my little slate, where I say, my name is Zoe Kushlefsky.
我做了我的小石板，上面写着我的名字是佐伊·库什莱夫斯基。
I'm here in Los Angeles.
我在洛杉矶。
I'm in Los Angeles, California.
我在加利福尼亚州洛杉矶。
I am attempting to break the record for the fastest time to type the alphabet with the little fingers.
我正在尝试打破用小手指输入字母最快时间的记录。
Oh, and I'm here with my witnesses, Rebekah Kochan--
哦，我和我的证人一起在这里，Rebekah Kochan——
Zoe goes up to her computer, holds her hands in the air, cracks her knuckles, and wiggles her fingers, warms up her pinkies.
佐伊走到电脑前，举起双手，敲响指关节，扭动手指，暖和小指。
Great.
伟大的。
OK.
好的。
Are we ready?
我们准备好了吗？
OK.
好的。
3, 2, 1, go.
3、2、1，走。
Done.
完毕。
4.6 seconds.
4.6秒。
The record to beat was 5.12.
要打破的记录是 5.12。
After a few months, Guinness writes her back.
几个月后，吉尼斯给她回信。
She was now the Guinness World Records' time holder.
她现在是吉尼斯世界纪录的保持者。
Zoe calls up Eliza to tell her the good news.
佐伊打电话给伊丽莎，告诉她这个好消息。
She let me sit in and record.
她让我坐下来录音。
So, yeah, I got the record.
所以，是的，我得到了记录。
How do you feel about that?
你对此有何感想？
I'm excited for you.
我为你感到兴奋。
Zoe Kushlefsky Thank you.
佐伊·库什莱夫斯基 谢谢。
Yeah.
是的。
Elna Baker Eliza congratulates her, but also says--
埃尔娜·贝克·伊丽莎祝贺她，但也说——
For me, I'm really over the whole record thing, to be honest.
对我来说，说实话，我真的已经结束了整个唱片的事情。
For me, it was-- like, it's almost been-- what-- like, nine months now since I did it?
对我来说，自从我这么做以来，已经——就像，几乎——什么——就像，九个月了？
And so I'm very over it.
所以我已经受够了。
I'm just excited for you.
我只是为你感到兴奋。
I don't really care anymore, from my perspective.
从我的角度来看，我真的不再关心了。
I did what I set out to do.
我做了我想做的事。
So for me, it was just, yeah, something fun to do.
所以对我来说，这只是，是的，一件有趣的事情。
And so it doesn't really matter to me anymore, all the specifics.
所以所有的细节对我来说已经不再重要了。
I don't know.
我不知道。
It just depends what it meant to you.
这仅取决于它对您意味着什么。
I think it could have been-- it was different for you.
我认为这对你来说可能是不同的。
But for me, I mean, it wore off a while ago.
但对我来说，我的意思是，它不久前就消失了。
So it passed pretty quickly for me.
所以这对我来说很快就过去了。
But for you, it might be different.
但对于你来说，情况可能会有所不同。
True, true.
真的，真的。
Elna Baker I felt like I could hear Zoe deflating on the call.
埃尔娜·贝克 (Elna Baker) 我感觉我能听到佐伊在电话中泄气。
She went from cheering and laughing to being ashamed for even caring.
她从欢呼、大笑，到连关心都感到羞愧。
This was such a sister counterattack.
这简直就是姐姐的逆袭啊。
She seemed so harsh.
她看起来很严厉。
But when I sat down with Eliza to talk about it, she was warm, self-deprecating.
但当我和伊丽莎坐下来谈论这件事时，她很热情，但很自嘲。
I come in frazzled.
我进来时疲惫不堪。
My hands have a little ketchup on them.
我的手上沾有一点番茄酱。
So I played the call for her and just asked her, what was up with that?
于是我给她打了电话，问她怎么了？
Not great.
不太好。
I mean, I think I sound defensive and upset.
我的意思是，我觉得我听起来很防御并且很沮丧。
Defensive?
防守？
Eliza I think so.
伊丽莎 我想是的。
I'm like, I don't even really care.
我想，我什至不在乎。
But for you, it's different.
但对你来说，情况就不一样了。
Oh, this matters to you, but it doesn't matter to me.
哦，这对你来说很重要，但对我来说并不重要。
For you, it's good.
对你来说，这很好。
Here's the thing.
事情是这样的。
Eliza knew Zoe was recording her.
伊丽莎知道佐伊正在给她录音。
And in good sister fashion, she'd said she was OK with it, but she wasn't really.
以好姐妹的方式，她说她对此表示同意，但实际上并非如此。
So she was flustered and uncomfortable.
所以她心里很慌乱，很不舒服。
And she had other feelings, too.
她还有其他的感受。
This itch Zoe has to take her down, Eliza's noticed, and it doesn't feel great.
伊丽莎注意到了佐伊必须把她打倒的渴望，但这种感觉并不好。
If you look at the story from her perspective, Eliza breaks a world record.
如果你从伊丽莎的角度来看这个故事，她打破了世界纪录。
And when she first texts her sister, hey, I did this cool thing.
当她第一次给她姐姐发短信时，嘿，我做了一件很酷的事情。
Zoe's response is, fuck your thing.
佐伊的回应是，操你的东西。
And I guess I was just like, why is her first response to compete with me and one-up me?
我想我当时就想，为什么她的第一反应是与我竞争并胜过我？
And I was just like, instead of being happy for me, she saw it as this competition.
我就想，她并没有为我感到高兴，而是将其视为这场比赛。
And her first response was, I can do it better.
她的第一反应是，我可以做得更好。
This is this cool thing that I tried to achieve.
这是我试图实现的很酷的事情。
And now you're trying to beat it.
现在你正试图打败它。
Yeah.
是的。
And I think it's the fact that her first text after was, I bet I can do it faster.
我认为事实是她之后的第一条短信是，我打赌我可以做得更快。
Right, she didn't even say congratulations first.
对了，她连恭喜都没有先说。
Yeah.
是的。
So then it's like, if that's where this is coming from, that feels hurtful.
所以，如果这就是它的来源，那感觉很伤人。
The entire way it was phrased was just doing it better than me.
它的整个措辞方式只是比我做得更好。
Eliza didn't say any of this to Zoe, though.
不过，伊丽莎没有对佐伊说这些。
She felt like it was a dumb thing to get her feelings hurt over.
她觉得让自己的感情受到伤害是一件愚蠢的事情。
So instead, she texted Zoe, I dare you.
因此，她给佐伊发短信说，我敢说你。
Eliza says, Zoe always trying to one-up her this way-- Eliza doesn't get it.
伊丽莎说，佐伊总是想用这种方式来对付她——伊丽莎不明白。
You personally have never felt like you've been competing with Zoe?
你个人从来没有觉得你一直在和佐伊竞争？
Not competing.
不竞争。
To me, it's not even comparable.
对我来说，根本没有可比性。
I've always admired the fact that she's out in LA, living her dreams.
我一直很钦佩她在洛杉矶实现自己的梦想。
And it's just that she is in a very different career path.
只是她的职业道路截然不同。
But I always think everything she is doing there is amazing.
但我始终认为她在那里所做的一切都是令人惊奇的。
And she's married.
她已经结婚了。
And she has a house.
而且她有房子。
Yes, Zoe is married.
是的，佐伊结婚了。
She lives in a nice house.
她住在一所漂亮的房子里。
She and her wife have a great relationship.
她和她的妻子关系很好。
Eliza hasn't yet checked off those big life boxes.
伊丽莎还没有勾选那些大的生活盒子。
She's also, Eliza told me, the performer of the family, the one who upstages her.
伊丽莎告诉我，她也是这个家庭的表演者，是抢了她风头的人。
Plus, Zoe's the oldest.
另外，佐伊是最年长的。
She's actually the big sister.
其实她才是大姐姐
Eliza's like, you win.
伊丽莎说，你赢了。
I felt like she set the tone.
我觉得她定下了基调。
Like, she was player one on the Wii.
就像，她是 Wii 上的一号玩家。
She had to go to the bathroom first when we got home from the car ride.
当我们乘车回家时，她必须先去洗手间。
Like, not in any resentful way, just in like a, that was the pecking order.
就像，不是以任何怨恨的方式，只是就像，这就是啄食顺序。
You're the oldest sibling.
你是最大的兄弟姐妹。
Like, that felt right.
就像，感觉不错。
And I think she even said to me, too.
我想她也对我说过。
I think she said she feels like there's a point where it flipped.
我想她说她感觉事情到了一个转折点。
And to her, I felt more like the older sister.
对她来说，我感觉更像是姐姐。
But that never happened for me.
但这对我来说从未发生过。
I've always seen her as the older sister.
我一直把她当作姐姐。
I still look up to her a lot.
我还是很尊敬她的。
I think I still really like to get her approval.
我想我还是很想得到她的认可。
I don't know if she said.
不知道她有没有说过。
But actually, someone made a comment about that recently in our family, that I like to get her approval.
但实际上，最近我们家里有人对此发表了评论，说我喜欢得到她的认可。
So to me, I've always looked up to her and admired her, and I still do.
所以对我来说，我一直尊敬她、钦佩她，现在仍然如此。
She told me she had no idea that the day she texted Zoe about her world record was the day Zoe ended treatment.
她告诉我，她不知道她给佐伊发短信谈论她的世界纪录的那一天就是佐伊结束治疗的那一天。
And Zoe never said anything.
佐伊什么也没说。
And she also had no idea that from the time they were kids, Zoe felt inferior to her.
她也不知道，从他们还是孩子的时候起，佐伊就觉得自己不如她。
Yeah, that's shocking to me.
是的，这让我很震惊。
Elna Baker Shocking?
艾尔娜·贝克 令人震惊吗？
Yeah.
是的。
I mean, I just don't see myself in that role.
我的意思是，我只是不认为自己扮演这个角色。
Like, wow.
就像，哇。
Like, she's doing so much better.
就像，她做得好多了。
I didn't realize she felt like that.
我没有意识到她有这样的感觉。
Eliza says that growing up, she had no idea Zoe thought Eliza was the favorite, the daughter their dad really wanted.
伊莉莎说，在成长过程中，她并不知道佐伊认为伊莉莎是最受欢迎的，是他们父亲真正想要的女儿。
She never noticed that she got dessert and Zoe got fruit.
她从来没有注意到她得到了甜点，佐伊得到了水果。
I mean, it makes me sad to think that.
我的意思是，想到这一点我就很难过。
Some of that, I think, especially now that we're older, I'm very aware of.
我想，其中一些我非常清楚，尤其是现在我们长大了。
But I definitely, again, wasn't as a child.
但我再次肯定，我不再是个孩子了。
And it makes me sad to think of Zoe going through all that and feeling very alone and me having no idea.
想到佐伊经历了这一切，感到非常孤独，而我却一无所知，这让我感到难过。
Like, that is so isolating.
就像，那太孤立了。
But then I also see it from your perspective, because it sort of has nothing to do with you.
但我也从你的角度来看，因为这与你无关。
But it does-- like, I don't see it from my perspective.
但它确实如此——就像，我不从我的角度看待它。
It does have to do with me, I mean, even if it doesn't directly.
我的意思是，这确实与我有关，即使不是直接的。
Like, I wish I could have been there for her and-- yeah, I don't know why I wasn't.
就像，我希望我能在她身边——是的，我不知道为什么我没有。
Like, I don't know, just being younger and just not seeing these things.
就像，我不知道，只是年轻，没有看到这些东西。
And maybe it's not something that I was primed to think about.
也许这不是我准备考虑的事情。
So I wasn't even noticing.
所以我什至没有注意到。
Since this whole pinky record thing, for the first time, Zoe and Eliza have started talking about all this, directly.
自从这整个小指唱片事件以来，佐伊和伊丽莎第一次开始直接谈论这一切。
They called each other, compared notes.
他们互相打电话，交换意见。
Zoe was like, oops, I didn't say congratulations after you got your record, did I?
佐伊说，哎呀，你拿到唱片后我没有说恭喜，是吗？
And Eliza was like, I had no idea you thought my job was cool.
伊丽莎说，我不知道你认为我的工作很酷。
And Zoe, who in one sentence will say she admires Eliza and in the next say she's jealous, has realized that they're two sides of the same coin, and how she feels about Eliza in any given moment has everything to do with how she feels about herself.
佐伊，前一句话会说她钦佩伊丽莎，下一句话又说她嫉妒，她意识到这是同一枚硬币的两面，她在任何特定时刻对伊丽莎的感觉与她对自己的感觉密切相关。
And she's being more generous with her.
而且她对她更加慷慨了。
It all looks different now, to both of them.
对于他们两人来说，现在一切看起来都不同了。
Elna Baker, she's the cohost of the podcast Pretty Sure I Can Fly with Johnny Knoxville.
埃尔娜·贝克 (Elna Baker) 是播客《很确定我能与约翰尼·诺克斯维尔 (Johnny Knoxville) 一起飞行》的联合主持人。
Listen wherever you get your podcasts.
无论您在哪里收听播客，都可以收听。
Her story was produced by Lilly Sullivan and edited by Nadia Reiman.
她的故事由莉莉·沙利文 (Lilly Sullivan) 制作，纳迪亚·雷曼 (Nadia Reiman) 编辑。
Credits Ira Glass Well, our program was produced today by Susan Burton and Dana Chivvis and edited by Laura Starecheski.
图片来源：Ira Glass 嗯，我们的节目今天由 Susan Burton 和 Dana Chivvis 制作，并由 Laura Starecheski 编辑。
The people who put our show together today include Chris Benderev, Jendayi Bonds, Sean Cole, Michael Comite, Aviva DeKornfeld, Emmanuel Dzotsi, Hany Hawasly, Henry Larson, Tobin Low, Katherine Rae Mondo, Ryan Rumery, Alix Spiegel, Ike Sriskandarajah, Frances Swanson, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, Julie Whitaker, and Diane Wu.
今天节目的制作人包括 Chris Benderev、Jendayi Bonds、Sean Cole、Michael Comite、Aviva DeKornfeld、Emmanuel Dzotsi、Hany Hawasly、Henry Larson、Tobin Low、Katherine Rae Mondo、Ryan Rumery、Alix Spiegel、Ike Sriskandarajah、Frances Swanson、Christopher Swetala、Matt Tierney、Julie Whitaker 和 Diane Wu。
Our managing editor is Sarah Abdurrahman.
我们的总编辑是萨拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sarah Abdurrahman)。
Our senior editor is David Kestenbaum.
我们的高级编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。
Our executive editor is Emanuele Barry.
我们的执行编辑是埃马努埃莱·巴里。
Special thanks today to everybody at WUWM, especially David Lee and Ele Ellis.
今天特别感谢 WUWM 的每个人，特别是 David Lee 和 Ele Ellis。
Also thanks to Ben Terris, Mike Elk with PayDay Report, Mike Pesca, Sarah McCammon, Don Gonyea, Jonathan Weisman, and Paula Moura.
还要感谢 Ben Terris、《PayDay Report》的 Mike Elk、Mike Pesca、Sarah McCammon、Don Gonyea、Jonathan Weisman 和 Paula Moura。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。
If you're looking for something to listen to during a long drive during this holiday summer or while you're waiting for planes to fly, you can stream from our archive of over 800 episodes for absolutely free.
如果您想在这个夏季假期的长途驾驶中或等待飞机起飞时寻找一些听的东西，您可以完全免费地从我们的 800 多集档案中收听。
Free, did you hear me?
免费，你听到了吗？
thisamericanlife.org.
thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our program's cofounder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
When he's in Washington, DC, he actually goes to the same yoga class that Joe Biden does.
当他在华盛顿特区时，他实际上和乔·拜登上同一堂瑜伽课。
But the teacher is so overbearing.
但老师就是这么霸道。
Torey keeps having to tell her--
托里一直不得不告诉她——
Let's be respectful of the president and push him gently in the right position.
让我们尊重总统并轻轻地把他推到正确的位置。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。