835: Children of Dave - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #835 | May 16, 2025 835: Children of Dave Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 835 集 | 2025 年 5 月 16 日 835：戴夫的孩子 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass My dad's ATM password was 1119 till the day he died.
序言：序言 Ira Glass 我父亲的 ATM 密码直到他去世的那天都是 1119。
1119 was also in the password for his home WiFi network.
1119 也是他家 WiFi 网络的密码。
1119 was shorthand for 1119 Bayard Street, which is where his grandfather, my great grandfather, owned a tiny grocery store on the ground floor of a house in downtown Baltimore in the 1920s, '30s, '40s, '50s.
1119 是 1119 Bayard Street 的简写，他的祖父，也就是我的曾祖父，在 20 世纪 20 年代、30 年代、40 年代和 50 年代在巴尔的摩市中心一栋房子的底层拥有一家小杂货店。
Picture a neighborhood bodega, and you've got the general size of this thing.
想象一下附近的一个小酒馆，你就知道了它的大概大小。
The family lived upstairs, worked downstairs.
一家人住在楼上，工作在楼下。
So much happened at 1119 Bayard.
1119 Bayard 发生了很多事情。
So many things about our family were set in motion there.
关于我们家庭的很多事情都是在那里启动的。
But my sisters and I only got little scraps of stories about the place, this handful of family-defining origin stories that got trotted out now and then.
但我和我的姐妹们只得到了关于这个地方的一些故事片段，这些关于家庭的起源故事时不时地被流传出来。
Like, for instance, there was the one about the chickens.
比如说，有一个关于鸡的故事。
My dad and his brother Lenny both worked in the store from the time they were little kids.
我父亲和他的兄弟莱尼从小就在这家商店工作。
And chickens were slaughtered at the store, which freaked them out, both of them.
店里还宰了鸡，这把他们俩都吓坏了。
To the point where, decades later, as grown men, neither of them ate chicken, and they'd explain this was the reason why.
几十年后，作为成年男子，他们都不吃鸡肉，他们会解释这就是原因。
Or there's the story about my great grandfather's bookkeeping skills.
或者有一个关于我曾祖父的簿记技巧的故事。
I'm actually named for my great grandfather, Isadore Friedlander.
我实际上是以我的曾祖父伊萨多·弗里德兰德（Isadore Friedlander）的名字命名的。
My parents chose Ira instead of Isadore because Isadore Glass is a parsable English sentence-- "Is a door glass?" My mom once told me that they picked Ira over the alternatives because it sounded less Jewish to them, which just goes to show how completely, utterly Jewish their entire world was back then.
我父母选择了 Ira 而不是 Isadore，因为 Isadore Glass 是一个可解析的英语句子——“Is adoor glass?”我妈妈曾经告诉我，他们选择了 Ira 而不是其他选择，因为这对他们来说听起来不那么犹太化，这恰恰表明他们的整个世界当时是多么完全、彻底的犹太化。
I've heard all my life what a kind-hearted man Isadore was and a soft touch, which brings me to this next story we would hear now and then.
我一生都听说过伊萨多尔是一个多么善良的人，他的态度多么温柔，这让我想起了我们时不时听到的下一个故事。
During the Depression, when everybody in the neighborhood was broke and buying on credit, Isadore set up a system where every customer would have a little book, like this flimsy paper thing, where he would write down what they owed.
在大萧条时期，当附近的每个人都破产并以赊账方式购买时，伊萨多尔建立了一个系统，每个顾客都会有一本小书，就像这种脆弱的纸质东西，他会在上面写下他们所欠的钱。
But the thing about the system was the customer kept the book.
但这个系统的问题是顾客保留了这本书。
Maybe you see the problem with this.
也许你看到了这个问题。
All the time, customers would show up at the store and say, I lost my book.
一直以来，顾客都会出现在商店里并说，我把书弄丢了。
And Isadore would say to them, ah, it's OK.
伊萨多尔会对他们说，啊，没关系。
What do you think you owe?
你认为你欠什么？
And then they'd say some not very high number.
然后他们会说一些不是很高的数字。
And he'd write it down and hand them a new book to take home.
他会把它写下来，然后交给他们一本新书带回家。
Years later, my dad became a certified public accountant.
多年后，我父亲成为一名注册会计师。
And this became one of those "the day Peter Parker got bit by the radioactive spider" sort of origin stories, what bad bookkeeping he saw his grandfather do at 1119 Bayard and how he was going to do better.
这成为了“彼得·帕克被放射性蜘蛛咬的那一天”之类的起源故事之一，他看到祖父在 1119 Bayard 的记账工作多么糟糕，以及他将如何做得更好。
I'm sure some good things happened at 1119 Bayard, but those stories didn't get passed down.
我确信 1119 Bayard 发生了一些好事，但那些故事并没有流传下来。
We heard painful things.
我们听到了痛苦的事情。
My dad was miserable working there.
我爸爸在那里工作很痛苦。
So was his brother.
他的兄弟也是如此。
His mom, my Grandma Frieda, got out of the store, went to college, taught Latin in junior high school, but then got dragged back into the family business against her will, like Michael Corleone, when her dad, Isadore, got sick.
他的妈妈，我的奶奶弗里达，离开了商店，上了大学，在初中教拉丁语，但后来违背她的意愿又被拖回家族企业，就像迈克尔·柯里昂一样，当她的父亲伊萨多尔生病时。
I visited 1119 Bayard-- I don't know-- maybe half a dozen times in my life, a dozen times.
我不知道，我一生中可能去过 1119 Bayard 六次，十几次。
Usually it would happen when my Uncle Lenny came to town.
通常这会发生在我叔叔莱尼进城的时候。
He and my dad would drive us all downtown, and we'd stand outside 1119 Bayard.
他和我爸爸会开车送我们去市中心，我们会站在 1119 Bayard 外面。
And the two of them would marvel at the place, at the fact of it, and I think at the distance they'd come from there-- my dad with his accounting firm out in the suburbs, my uncle, who became a surgeon and moved to San Diego, their kids raised in the kind of middle class comfort that we ate all the chicken we could ever want.
他们两个人都会惊叹于这个地方，惊叹于它的事实，我想他们来自那里的距离——我的父亲在郊区拥有他的会计师事务所，我的叔叔成为了一名外科医生并搬到了圣地亚哥，他们的孩子在中产阶级的舒适环境中长大，我们吃掉了我们想要的所有鸡肉。
I always found those trips disappointing.
我总是觉得那些旅行令人失望。
We'd take a picture and hang around there on the sidewalk.
我们会拍张照片并在人行道上闲逛。
It's not a store anymore.
它不再是一家商店了。
It's just somebody's house.
这只是某人的房子。
It doesn't look like anything.
它看起来不像什么。
A rowhouse in a block of rowhouses.
排屋街区中的一栋排屋。
At some point a few years ago, somebody painted a cheerful Christian mural on one side of the building with a quote from the Book of Mark.
几年前的某个时候，有人在建筑物的一侧画了一幅欢快的基督教壁画，上面引用了《马可福音》中的一句话。
Every time I've gone to 1119 Bayard and stood on the sidewalk, I've tried to picture it, my family there long ago, Frieda in her 30s, at the cash register against her will, my dad as a little boy, opening boxes and putting stuff on shelves.
每次我去 1119 Bayard 站在人行道上时，我都会试着想象一下，很久以前我的家人就在那里，30 多岁的弗里达，违背自己的意愿在收银台前，我的父亲还是个小男孩，打开盒子，把东西放在架子上。
I'm not great at that kind of thing.
我不擅长这类事情。
It's like trying to summon ghosts with a Ouija board, and the little pointer refuses to budge.
这就像试图用通灵板召唤鬼魂，而小指针却拒绝移动。
We've all got these spots from our family's past, and we go to them.
我们家族过去都曾去过这些地方，所以我们会去那里。
And they're like Civil War battlefields that have been washed of blood long ago.
它们就像很久以前就被鲜血洗净的内战战场。
We pause there and look at the trees and the grassy fields.
我们在那里停下来，看看树木和草地。
And we want-- what?
我们想要——什么？
Some connection to something.
与某事有某种联系。
I am who I am partly because of this place.
我之所以成为现在的我，部分原因在于这个地方。
But now it's mute.
但现在却悄无声息了。
So we take a selfie and try to tune into the past, like a distant radio station whose signal we can just barely make out.
所以我们拍一张自拍照，尝试调回到过去，就像一个遥远的广播电台，我们几乎听不清它的信号。
Today on our program, we have a story of somebody else who heads out to a place like that from his family's history, looking for answers.
今天在我们的节目中，我们讲述了一个故事，讲述的是另一个人前往他家族历史中类似的地方寻找答案。
And he gets so much more out of it than I ever did at 1119 Bayard about who he is.
他从这件事中得到的关于他是谁的信息比我在 1119 Bayard 得到的要多得多。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Part One: Part One Ira Glass OK, so we're devoting today's entire program to this one story.
第一部分：第一部分 Ira Glass 好的，所以我们今天的整个节目都在讲这个故事。
It's by Boen Wang, who we've had on our show before.
这是 Boen Wang 的作品，我们之前在节目中见过他。
He's a producer whose work has its own very distinct sound and feeling.
他是一位制作人，他的作品有其独特的声音和感觉。
That's one of the things that we, on our staff, really like about him.
这是我们员工真正喜欢他的事情之一。
Here is what he put together today for you.
这是他今天为您整理的。
August 1989.
1989 年 8 月。
My dad is in an airport.
我爸爸在机场。
He's flown from Beijing to Tokyo to San Francisco to Denver to Oklahoma City, almost missing his flight multiple times because he can't understand the announcements in English.
他从北京飞往东京，旧金山，丹佛，俄克拉荷马城，多次差点错过航班，因为他听不懂英文广播。
He is here to get a PhD from the University of Oklahoma.
他来这里是为了从俄克拉荷马大学获得博士学位。
He's here for a new life, a life where he doesn't sit chain smoking cigarettes at his boring job in a Jeep factory, while living in a tiny room with no running water or heating or cooling.
他来这里是为了开始新的生活，在这种生活中，他不再坐在吉普车工厂无聊的工作中连续抽烟，同时住在一个没有自来水、暖气或制冷的小房间里。
He wants a life where something changes.
他想要一种有所改变的生活。
It's the middle of the night in the Oklahoma City airport.
现在是俄克拉荷马城机场的半夜。
He had sent a letter to the university with the date and time of his arrival, so that someone could pick him up.
他已经给大学写了一封信，注明了他到达的日期和时间，以便有人来接他。
He scans the crowd, looking for someone holding a sign with his name on it, but finds no one.
他扫视人群，寻找举着写有他名字的牌子的人，但没有发现任何人。
One by one, the crowd thins out until my dad is stuck in the middle of this airport in the middle of this foreign country, a stranger in a strange land.
人群逐渐稀疏，直到我父亲被困在这个异国他乡的机场中央，成为异国他乡的陌生人。
Attention, airport.
注意，机场。
This is the final boarding call for the airline flight 382--
这是航空公司 382 航班的最后一次登机呼叫——
So you were alone?
所以你是一个人吗？
Dad Yeah, I was alone.
爸爸 是的，我一个人。
And I was looking for someone to pick me up.
我正在找人来接我。
But all the passengers left, and no one stayed around, and no sign for picking me up.
但所有乘客都走了，没有人留下来，也没有接我的迹象。
So as I was trying to leave, thinking what I'm going to do, and then this nice gentleman approached me.
当我试图离开时，想着我要做什么，然后这位友善的绅士向我走来。
This nice gentleman, the first white American my dad ever talks to, introduces himself as Dave.
这位和蔼可亲的绅士是我父亲交谈过的第一位美国白人，他介绍自己是戴夫。
Dave isn't his real name.
戴夫不是他的真名。
I changed it to protect his privacy.
我改变了它以保护他的隐私。
And he comes here to pick me up.
他来这里接我。
He's about the same height, and he wears glasses.
身高差不多，还戴着眼镜。
He has a very warm smile.
他有着非常温暖的微笑。
A warm smile.
温暖的微笑。
Dad Yeah, he smiles warmly and said that he is going to take me.
爸爸是的，他温暖地笑着说他要带我去。
So I was so happy to see him.
所以我很高兴见到他。
Dave takes my dad to his car and drives half an hour south to his home in Norman, the college town that surrounds the University of Oklahoma.
戴夫把我爸爸带到他的车上，向南行驶半小时到达他位于诺曼的家，诺曼是俄克拉荷马大学周围的大学城。
My dad meets Dave's wife and, finally, having reached the end of his trans-Pacific ordeal--
我父亲遇见了戴夫的妻子，终于结束了他的跨太平洋磨难——
He told me to sleep in this room.
他叫我睡在这个房间里。
So I took a shower and went to sleep.
于是我洗了个澡就去睡觉了。
Dave is a Christian, the leader of a local church's Chinese ministry.
Dave是一名基督徒，是当地教会中文事工的领袖。
Dave gives my dad a bible, the first English language book he studies from cover to cover, and invites him to a weekly Bible study and Sunday service.
戴夫给了我爸爸一本圣经，这是他从头到尾学习的第一本英语书，并邀请他参加每周的圣经学习和周日礼拜。
In time, my dad will accept Christ.
假以时日，我父亲就会接受基督。
So will my mom after she arrives in America later that year.
我妈妈那年晚些时候抵达美国后也会如此。
My parents will raise me and my older sister as Christians.
我的父母将以基督徒的身份抚养我和我的姐姐。
We will attend church every Sunday in Oklahoma and then in Philly, where my dad finds a job and where I grow up.
我们每周日都会去俄克拉荷马州的教堂，然后去费城，那里是我父亲找到工作的地方，也是我长大的地方。
It's the perfect conversion story, the sort of testimony you'd share in front of an audience at church.
这是一个完美的转变故事，是你在教堂的观众面前分享的那种见证。
My parents grew up during the Cultural Revolution, when the Communist Party suppressed any expression of religion.
我的父母在文化大革命期间长大，当时共产党压制任何宗教表达。
They were atheists by default.
他们默认是无神论者。
Their conversion here in America goes against everything they learned in China.
他们在美国的皈依与他们在中国学到的一切背道而驰。
The only problem with this story is me.
这个故事唯一的问题是我。
After 22 years of Christianity, I left and never came back.
信奉基督教 22 年后，我离开了，再也没有回来。
(SUBJECT) YOUNG BOEN WANG: Have you ever felt depressed?
（主题）年轻的 BOEN WANG：您曾经感到沮丧吗？
Perhaps a bit blue?
也许有点蓝色？
Did you ever have an existential crisis and start to question the very foundation of your faith?
您是否曾经遇到过生存危机并开始质疑您信仰的基础？
I am raised in the church.
我是在教堂长大的。
I go to Sunday school, and worship service, and youth group, and Bible study, which I come to lead.
我去主日学校、礼拜仪式、青年小组和圣经学习，这些都是我来领导的。
Every break, I go to a retreat that's held at a camp near Lancaster, out in Amish country.
每次休息时，我都会去参加在阿米什乡村兰卡斯特附近的一个营地举行的静修活动。
When I'm 17, I make this promo video for our upcoming spring youth retreat.
当我 17 岁时，我为我们即将到来的春季青年静修会制作了这段宣传视频。
(SUBJECT) YOUNG BOEN WANG: Maybe you have doubts about your faith.
（主题）年轻的 BOEN WANG：也许你对你的信仰有疑问。
Maybe you've been a Christian for many years, but you're still uncertain about some things.
也许你已经成为基督徒很多年了，但你仍然对一些事情不确定。
Maybe you're new to Christianity and have a lot of questions.
也许您刚接触基督教并且有很多问题。
Either way, you should take the opportunity to go to the spring youth retreat.
不管怎样，你都应该抓住机会去参加春季青年静修会。
Don't believe me?
不相信我？
Just listen to these satisfied customers.
只要听听这些满意的客户就知道了。
At first, I wasn't too sure about this retreat thing, you know?
起初，我对这个闭关的事情不太确定，你知道吗？
I mean, like, people going to woods, singing, worshiping, isn't that what cults do?
我的意思是，人们去树林里唱歌、崇拜，这不是邪教所做的吗？
But then I went to it, and it was really interesting.
但后来我去了，发现真的很有趣。
We went singing, we worshipped.
我们去唱歌，我们敬拜。
And it wasn't a cult at all.
这根本不是邪教。
I mean, you should definitely go.
我的意思是，你绝对应该去。
In retrospect, this sounds like a cry for help.
回想起来，这听起来像是在呼救。
I'm totally not trapped in a cult, haha.
我完全没有陷入邪教，哈哈。
Being immersed for decades in this not-cult didn't just shape my behavior-- it rewired my brain.
几十年来沉浸在这种非邪教中不仅塑造了我的行为，而且还重塑了我的大脑。
Like, even today, when I'm washing the dishes, I'll be thinking about how this Scrub Daddy that I'm using is falling apart.
就像，即使在今天，当我洗碗时，我也会想到我正在使用的这款磨砂膏是如何崩溃的。
And I should probably get some new sponges from the supermarket.
我也许应该从超市买一些新海绵。
And Jesus Christ, remember that time at the food bazaar in Flatbush when I almost ran my shopping cart into that old lady, and she yelled at me?
天哪，还记得那次在弗拉特布什的食品集市吗？当时我差点把购物车撞到那位老太太身上，她对我大喊大叫？
God, I'm such a worthless piece of shit.
天哪，我真是个废物。
But anyway, I should probably go to Giant Eagle to get some sponges.
但无论如何，我应该去巨鹰那里买一些海绵。
And Jesus Christ, remember that time when I met up with the Arts Council guy at the 61C Cafe across the street from the Giant Eagle, and we said goodbye, but then we were walking the same way and awkwardly made more conversation until we reached his car?
天哪，还记得那次我在巨鹰街对面的 61C 咖啡馆遇见艺术委员会的人，我们说了再见，但随后我们又沿着同一条路走，尴尬地进行了更多交谈，直到我们到达他的车前？
God, I'm such a worthless piece of shit.
天哪，我真是个废物。
But anyway, I should email the landlord about how the dishwasher doesn't work so I don't have to hand wash these dishes.
但无论如何，我应该向房东发送电子邮件，告知洗碗机无法工作，这样我就不必手洗这些碗碟了。
It hasn't worked this entire time.
一直以来都没有发挥作用。
And Jesus Christ, it's been almost a year since I moved into this apartment, and I still haven't emailed him.
天哪，自从我搬进这间公寓已经快一年了，我仍然没有给他发电子邮件。
God, why am I such a procrastinator?
天啊，我为什么这么拖延？
I'm such a worthless piece of shit.
我真是个一文不值的废物。
Sometimes I whisper it to myself.
有时我对自己低声说。
I'm a worthless piece of shit.
我就是一个一文不值的废物。
I hate myself.
我讨厌我自己。
This is the main thing I learned from Christianity, that I'm a worthless piece of shit.
这是我从基督教中学到的最重要的事情：我是一个毫无价值的废物。
And listen, I know that that's not the main message of the Gospel.
听着，我知道这不是福音的主要信息。
I know Jesus teaches us that we're redeemed by His sacrifice, that we're all children of God.
我知道耶稣教导我们，我们因他的牺牲而得到救赎，我们都是神的孩子。
But all that nice, feel-good stuff bounced right off of me.
但所有这些美好的、感觉良好的东西都立刻从我身上弹开。
What was drilled into my mind and what I really internalized is that while I'm a child of God, I'm also a child of Adam, who ate the forbidden fruit offered to him by Eve and whose original sin I inherit.
深入我脑海、真正内化的是，虽然我是上帝的孩子，但我也是亚当的孩子，亚当吃了夏娃献给他的禁果，我继承了他的原罪。
Christians remind you of it all the time.
基督徒总是提醒你这一点。
I was at a wedding where the groom's brother told the newlyweds they need to never forget that they're broken sinners-- at a celebration of the couple.
我在一次婚礼上，新郎的兄弟告诉新婚夫妇，他们永远不要忘记他们是破碎的罪人——在这对夫妇的庆祝活动上。
So I learned to hate myself.
于是我学会了讨厌自己。
I need to punish myself every moment of every waking hour of every day for my sinfulness, which morphs into a need to punish myself for anything I've ever done that's vaguely embarrassing.
我需要为自己的罪孽而每天醒着的每一刻惩罚自己，这变成了为我曾经做过的任何令人尴尬的事情惩罚自己的需要。
For years, I hated talking about myself because I hated myself.
多年来，我讨厌谈论自己，因为我讨厌自己。
If I'm at a social event and meet someone new, I'll be like, so where do you live?
如果我在社交活动中认识新朋友，我会问，你住在哪里？
How long have you been there for?
你在那里呆了多久了？
How do you like it?
你喜欢吗？
Where are you from?
你从哪来？
What school did you go to?
你去哪所学校？
And if someone asks me a question, like what I do for a living, I'm like, oh, uh, well, you know, I make podcasts or whatever.
如果有人问我一个问题，比如我以什么为生，我会说，哦，呃，好吧，你知道，我制作播客或其他什么。
It's stupid.
这很愚蠢。
And then I do rhetorical jujitsu and redirect back to the other person.
然后我会练习修辞柔术并重定向回另一个人。
What do you do for a living?
你靠什么谋生？
How did you get into that?
你是怎么进入这个领域的？
How do you like it?
你喜欢吗？
Humility is a big part of Christianity.
谦卑是基督教的重要组成部分。
The good are humble, quiet, and meek, while the evil are loud, boisterous, and proud.
善人谦卑、安静、温顺，恶人则喧闹、喧闹、骄傲。
As Solomon teaches us in Proverbs, "When pride comes, then comes disgrace.
正如所罗门在《箴言》中教导我们的：“骄傲来了，耻辱也来了。
But with humility comes wisdom."
但谦卑会带来智慧。”
So if I don't want to disgrace myself, I need to make sure the attention is always on the other person.
因此，如果我不想让自己丢脸，我需要确保注意力始终集中在对方身上。
I need to stay humble and never answer anyone's questions about me.
我需要保持谦虚，永远不要回答任何人关于我的问题。
Because if I talk about myself, they'd soon discover my fundamental worthless piece of shit-ness and be as disgusted with me as I am with myself.
因为如果我谈论我自己，他们很快就会发现我根本上毫无价值，并且会像我对自己一样厌恶我。
Besides, who would want to talk to me in the first place?
再说了，谁愿意和我说话呢？
Who would possibly want to get to know me, befriend me, or, God forbid, date me?
谁可能想认识我，与我交朋友，或者，上帝保佑，与我约会？
Sex was out of the question, even as an adult living on my own.
即使作为一个独自生活的成年人，性也是不可能的。
As Jesus says in the Sermon on the Mount, anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
正如耶稣在登山宝训中所说，凡看见妇女就动淫念的，心里已经与她犯奸淫了。
So not only is it immoral to have sex, to just think about sex is a sin.
因此，发生性行为不仅是不道德的，而且仅仅思考性行为也是一种罪过。
I held on to that even after I left the church and graduated college.
即使我离开教会并大学毕业后，我仍然坚持这一点。
I simply cannot imagine myself ever dating.
我简直无法想象自己曾经约会过。
When I thought about the future, I pictured myself getting frozen fish nuggets from Trader Joe's, frozen hash browns and tartar sauce from Giant Eagle, and eating them together as the saddest fish and chips in the world, while watching through all of Twin Peaks, which is what I did my first semester in grad school, living with Craigslist roommates in a single room in Pittsburgh.
当我想到未来时，我想象自己从Trader Joe's买冷冻鱼块，从Giant Eagle买冷冻土豆煎饼和鞑靼酱，然后一起吃它们，就像世界上最悲伤的鱼和薯条一样，同时观看整个双峰，这就是我在研究生院的第一个学期所做的，与Craigslist的室友住在匹兹堡的一个单间里。
I read an interview in The Cut with a, quote, "58-year-old virgin," who said that the worst part about his life is, quote, "laying alone at night, falling asleep, and then getting up in the morning and remembering you're alone." I read that, and I was like, yep.
我在《The Cut》上读到了一篇采访，引用一位“58 岁的处女”，他说他一生中最糟糕的部分是，引用，“晚上独自躺着，睡着了，然后早上起床，才想起你独自一人。”我读到了，我想，是的。
All right, here we go.
好吧，我们开始吧。
At age 25, I started dating my partner and now fiancée, Grace.
25 岁时，我开始和我的伴侣、现在的未婚妻格蕾丝约会。
They're the first person I ever dated.
他们是我约会的第一个人。
We saw the movie Challengers the other day, the horny Zendaya tennis movie about three tennis players who fuck each other while fucking each other over.
前几天我们看了电影《挑战者》，一部赞达亚的性感网球电影，讲述了三个网球运动员一边互相操一边互相操的故事。
On the drive back from the theater, Grace was like--
从剧院回来的路上，格蕾丝就像——
Wow, the horny Zendaya tennis movie sure was horny, don't you think?
哇，性感的赞达亚网球电影确实很性感，你不觉得吗？
And I was like-- Boen Wang Uh, well, I just really like the soundtrack by Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross of Nine Inch Nails.
我当时想——Boen Wang 嗯，我真的很喜欢《九寸钉》的 Trent Reznor 和 Atticus Ross 的配乐。
They also did the music for The Social Network and Gone Girl and the Watchmen TV show.
他们还为《社交网络》、《消失的爱人》以及电视节目《守望者》创作了音乐。
Right, but the movie was also, like, really horny, right?
是的，但这部电影也非常性感，对吧？
Did it make you horny?
它让你性欲旺盛吗？
Uh, maybe.
呃，也许吧。
I don't know.
我不知道。
It's just that Nine Inch Nails actually released an album of instrumentals in 2008 entirely through a Creative Commons license, so you don't have to pay any licensing fees.
只是九寸钉实际上在2008年就完全通过知识共享许可发行了一张乐器专辑，所以你不需要支付任何许可费用。
I actually used some of their songs in my podcasts.
我实际上在我的播客中使用了他们的一些歌曲。
Boen, did the horny Zendaya tennis movie make you horny?
Boen，性感的赞达亚网球电影让你性感了吗？
Why are you being so immature about this?
为什么你在这件事上这么不成熟？
I don't know what exactly happened in this moment, but I felt like a child.
我不知道这一刻到底发生了什么，但我感觉自己像个孩子。
I felt swallowed by an overwhelming feeling of shame-- shame about sex, about sexual desire, and simply being a sexual being, for having a body.
我感到一种压倒性的羞耻感吞没了我——对性、对性欲、对作为一个有性的存在、对拥有身体的羞耻。
For a long time, I wish I didn't have a body, that I was a floating consciousness, freed from the shame and guilt of the flesh.
很长一段时间，我希望自己没有身体，希望自己是一个漂浮的意识，摆脱了肉体的羞耻和罪恶感。
It's been seven years since I left Christianity, but the effects are still there.
我离开基督教已经七年了，但影响仍然存在。
These mental grooves are so well worn at this point, it's basically instinct.
这些思维模式在这一点上已经非常陈旧了，这基本上是本能。
Where does my fucked up-ness come from?
我的操蛋心从何而来？
Well, I think I can trace all of this back to my dad at the Oklahoma City airport.
嗯，我想我可以将这一切追溯到我在俄克拉荷马城机场的父亲。
The story of my dad waiting for someone to pick him up at the airport has taken on an almost mythological significance to me, this moment that sealed my fate years before I even existed, because as he stood in the terminal, he also stood at a crossroads.
我父亲在机场等待有人接他的故事对我来说几乎具有神话般的意义，这一刻在我存在之前就决定了我的命运，因为当他站在航站楼时，他也站在十字路口。
Is there an alternate reality where Dave doesn't pick him up and someone else does instead, someone who isn't a Christian, and my dad never converts, and my life is so much better as a result?
是否有另一种现实，戴夫没有接他，而是由其他人接他，一个不是基督徒的人，而我父亲从未皈依，而我的生活因此而变得更好？
I was born in Oklahoma and moved away when I was two.
我出生在俄克拉荷马州，两岁时搬走了。
I have no memories of living there or of Dave.
我没有住在那里的记忆，也没有关于戴夫的记忆。
What was it about this place and these people that made my parents choose Christianity?
这个地方和这些人是什么让我父母选择了基督教？
If I went there myself, if I talked to Dave and the people who knew them, visited the places they spent time in, attended the church they worshipped at, and tried to imagine what their lives were like 35 years ago, maybe then I could finally understand why things went the way they did.
如果我亲自去那里，如果我与戴夫和认识他们的人交谈，参观他们度过的地方，参加他们做礼拜的教堂，并尝试想象他们 35 年前的生活是什么样的，也许那时我终于能理解为什么事情会像他们那样发展。
OK, I am standing in the Oklahoma City airport.
好的，我站在俄克拉荷马城机场。
I had this idea where I would stand where my dad stood, looking around for someone to pick him up.
我有一个想法，我会站在我父亲站的地方，四处寻找有人来接他。
But I don't know exactly where that would be.
但我不知道具体在哪里。
Mostly I'm just tired and want to lay in a bed.
大多数时候我只是累了，想躺在床上。
I think I'll go do that.
我想我会去做那件事。
Rolling my suitcase across the parking lot, I think about how my dad flew in from Beijing as an "alien," to use the official terminology, while I arrived from Pittsburgh as a US citizen.
我推着行李箱穿过停车场，想着我的父亲是如何以“外星人”（用官方术语来说）的身份从北京飞来的，而我则是以美国公民的身份从匹兹堡飞来的。
How my dad was at the mercy of strangers for transportation, while I have a license and rental car.
我的父亲如何在交通方面受到陌生人的摆布，而我有驾照和租车。
How I would now retrace the route my dad took from Oklahoma City to Norman, and how the one thing we share is a sense of exhaustion, of wanting nothing more than a warm bed in a private room at the end of a long day in a strange place.
我现在会如何回顾父亲从俄克拉荷马城到诺曼的路线，以及我们共同的一件事是一种疲惫感，在一个陌生的地方结束漫长的一天后，我们只想在私人房间里睡一张温暖的床。
["DO YOU REALIZE??" BY THE FLAMING LIPS]
[“你意识到了吗？”在燃烧的嘴唇旁]
Do you remember what you saw looking out the window?
你还记得你往窗外看到的景象吗？
I think it's just highways.
我认为这只是高速公路。
It's dark outside.
外面天黑了。
Red Lobster, Chick-fil-A, McDonald's.
红龙虾、福来鸡、麦当劳。
I'm just naming chain restaurants here, all lit up in neon signs.
我只是在这里列出连锁餐厅的名字，它们都亮着霓虹灯。
Highway signs-- get off, get on, exit, I-35.
高速公路标志——下车、上车、出口、I-35。
Here we go.
开始了。
University of Oklahoma is our exit.
俄克拉荷马大学是我们的出口。
And then we went along, and we got to Norman.
然后我们继续前行，到达了诺曼。
I think I was very tired.
我想我很累了。
I fall asleep quickly.
我很快就睡着了。
(SUBJECT) THE FLAMING LIPS: (SINGING) That everyone you know someday will--
（主题）火焰般的嘴唇：（唱歌）有一天你认识的每个人都会——
The next day, I go to my parents' first apartment.
第二天，我去了父母的第一间公寓。
I just want to see it with my own eyes.
我只想亲眼看看。
The building is two stories and painted a pale yellow, with a big porch a guy is sitting on.
这座建筑有两层，漆成淡黄色，一个大门廊上坐着一个人。
All of a sudden--
突然——
[SIREN] Boen Wang I guess that's some sort of warning?
[SIREN] Boen Wang 我猜这是某种警告？
Maybe like a tornado warning?
也许像龙卷风警告？
Is there a tornado coming?
龙卷风要来了吗？
No idea.
不知道。
Anyway, I'm going to do my parents' commute, walk to the old chemistry building that they used to stay at.
不管怎样，我要陪父母上下班，步行到他们曾经住过的旧化学大楼。
It's very quiet, nobody.
很安静，没有人。
When you walk on the street, you even can hear your own footsteps and your own breathing.
当你走在街上时，你甚至可以听到自己的脚步声和自己的呼吸声。
We came from Beijing and such big cities, so many people.
我们来自北京，这么大的城市，这么多人。
Everywhere is crowd.
到处都是人群。
All of a sudden, you went to a place just opposite.
突然，你去了对面的一个地方。
So you can imagine that kind of shocking [CHUCKLES] feeling.
所以你可以想象那种令人震惊的[咯咯]感觉。
This might be the chemistry building.
这可能是化学大楼。
This is the old chemistry building.
这是老化学楼。
It's called the chemistry building annex.
它被称为化学大楼附属建筑。
I kind of feel very lost and have no sense of being anchored to any spot because I feel I'm just parachute to the place in the middle of nowhere.
我感觉很失落，没有被固定在任何地方的感觉，因为我觉得我只是降落伞到一个不知名的地方。
I don't know anyone.
我谁也不认识。
You start with zero.
你从零开始。
I mean, you are on ground zero.
我的意思是，你处于零基础。
Three or four stories and faded yellow brick, some castle-like turrets on the top.
三四层楼，褪色的黄砖，顶部有一些城堡般的角楼。
Interesting.
有趣的。
Some of the outside is pretty corroded now.
外面的一些东西现在已经严重腐蚀了。
When you said you just parachuted into this place and you started at zero, you had nothing, do you think that's why you relied so heavily on the church?
你说你刚跳伞来到这里，从零开始，你一无所有，你认为这就是你如此依赖教会的原因吗？
I think so, because you all of a sudden lost your-- your don't have a gravity.
我想是的，因为你突然失去了重力。
You don't have a gravity.
你没有重力。
Life is so fragile.
生命是如此脆弱。
That's how I felt.
我就是这么感觉的。
This could be happening in a second, just turning upside down.
这可能会在一秒钟内发生，只是颠倒过来。
I visit the campus library and find physical copies of my parents' PhD dissertations.
我参观了校园图书馆，找到了我父母的博士论文的实体副本。
My mom's is titled "Formation and Characterization of Anchored Polymer Coatings on Alumina." There's a Cheetos bag sandwiched between the front cover and first page.
我妈妈的标题是“氧化铝上锚定聚合物涂层的形成和表征”。封面和首页之间夹着一个奇多袋。
No idea why.
不知道为什么。
I ask my mom about this later.
我后来问了妈妈这件事。
Did you leave a Cheetos bag in your dissertation, maybe as some sort of message to future readers?
您是否在论文中留下了奇多袋，也许是为了向未来的读者传达某种信息？
She's like, what?
她就像，什么？
No.
不。
In the acknowledgments, which is the only section I can understand, she writes, "I shall give all glory and honor to GOD," all caps.
在致谢词中，这是我唯一能理解的部分，她写道：“我将把所有的荣耀和尊贵归给上帝”，全部大写。
"HE," all caps, "is my strength." I throw away the Cheetos bag on my way out.
“HE”全部大写，“是我的力量。”我出门时扔掉了奇多袋。
[PHONE DIALING] The first person I talk to in Oklahoma is Dave, the nice gentleman with the warm smile who took my dad in and brought him to Christ.
[电话拨号] 我在俄克拉荷马州第一个见到的人是戴夫，他是一位带着温暖微笑的好绅士，他收留了我的父亲并把他带入了基督。
Dave knew me as an infant and visited us in Philly, which I have no memory of.
戴夫（Dave）在我还是个婴儿的时候就认识我了，并曾到费城拜访过我们，但我对那儿没有任何记忆。
My parents always referred to him as my yeye, my grandfather, perhaps in place of the yeye in China I never met.
我的父母总是称他为“我的爷爷”，也许是用来代替我从未见过的中国的“爷爷”。
This would probably be my first and only chance to talk to him, at least since I gained consciousness and the power of speech.
这可能是我第一次也是唯一一次与他交谈的机会，至少自从我获得意识和言语能力以来是这样。
I wanted to know, who is this man?
我想知道，这个人是谁？
How did he end up in charge of this Chinese ministry that changed the fate of my parents' lives-- and my life?
他是如何最终掌管这个改变了我父母以及我的命运的中国事工的？
Hi.
你好。
Nice to finally talk with you.
很高兴终于能和你说话了。
How are you?
你好吗？
Well, I'm well-- [CLEARS THROAT] excuse me-- for being 90 next February.
好吧，我很好——[清嗓子]对不起——明年二月就满 90 岁了。
Oh, wow.
哦，哇。
You're OK with me recording this?
你同意我录制这个吗？
You're recording it?
你在录音吗？
Boen Wang Yeah, is that OK?
王博恩 是的，可以吗？
I found that if you publicly identify somebody, the devil really can come in and try to take away their testimony.
我发现，如果你公开指认某人，魔鬼真的会进来并试图夺走他们的证词。
And I would just urge you that if you do write this, that's honoring to your mom and dad, but you don't want the devil jumping on them.
我只是敦促你，如果你真的写了这篇文章，那是对你父母的尊重，但你不想让魔鬼跳到他们身上。
So do you understand that?
那么你明白吗？
I do, yeah.
我愿意，是的。
The way I understand what Dave is saying here is that since I'm publicizing my parents' story, I need to make sure not to dishonor or slander them, because the devil is lying in wait.
我理解戴夫在这里所说的是，既然我要公开我父母的故事，我需要确保不要羞辱或诽谤他们，因为魔鬼正在等待着。
Dave worked as a campus minister in colleges across the US and the world, in Nebraska and Maryland and Nairobi, Kenya.
戴夫曾在内布拉斯加州、马里兰州和肯尼亚内罗毕的美国和世界各地的大学中担任校园部长。
But he spent the bulk of his career ministering to Chinese international students at OU, as the University of Oklahoma is confusingly nicknamed, starting in 1987, two years before my parents arrived.
但从 1987 年开始，他的大部分职业生涯都在 OU（俄克拉荷马大学的绰号很混乱）上为中国国际学生服务，比我父母来的两年早。
Did you have any sort of prior knowledge of China or Chinese culture or the language or anything like that?
您对中国或中国文化或语言或类似的东西有任何了解吗？
Well, [CLEARS THROAT] no. When the Chinese started coming over here from mainland China, they had never been in a church.
好吧，[清嗓子]不。当中国人开始从中国大陆来到这里时，他们从未去过教堂。
They had never met a Christian.
他们从未见过基督徒。
They had never seen a Bible.
他们从未见过圣经。
But they came over here, wanting to know our culture.
但他们来到这里，想了解我们的文化。
It sounded like he almost stumbled into this role.
听起来他几乎是无意中扮演了这个角色。
He saw a new population at OU, many of whom were already curious about Western culture and Christianity, and he was happy to oblige.
他在俄勒冈大学看到了一批新人，其中许多人已经对西方文化和基督教感到好奇，他很乐意效劳。
It was clarifying for me to learn that Dave had been a missionary in Kenya.
得知戴夫曾是肯尼亚的传教士，这让我明白了一些。
I've come to think of him as a sort of domestic missionary, serving people from outside the US, within the US.
我开始将他视为一种国内传教士，为美国以外的人们服务。
I think it's somewhere close to 450 Chinese-- closer, maybe, even to 500 during that time over the years, say.
我认为大约有 450 名中国人，多年来，可能甚至接近 500 名中国人。
We didn't rush them.
我们没有催促他们。
We didn't want them to become Christians to please us.
我们不想让他们成为基督徒来取悦我们。
But we would love them.
但我们会爱他们。
We'd take them on trips.
我们会带他们去旅行。
We'd have Bible study with them.
我们会和他们一起学习圣经。
Among these acts of love were practical things, like picking my dad up from the airport.
这些爱的行为中有一些实际的事情，比如去机场接我爸爸。
My mom came four months later.
四个月后我妈妈来了。
Dave picked her up as well.
戴夫也接了她。
At that point, my dad was ready to convert.
那时，我父亲已经准备好皈依了。
Dave and his wife came to my parents' apartment.
戴夫和他的妻子来到我父母的公寓。
My dad got on his knees, prayed to accept Jesus into his heart.
我父亲跪下，祈祷接受耶稣进入他的心里。
And then your dad looked up and smiled.
然后你爸爸抬起头来微笑。
And he said, this wasn't as hard as I thought it would be.
他说，这并不像我想象的那么难。
[CHUCKLES] And he was really happy.
[笑]他真的很高兴。
And I looked over at your mom, and she was crying.
我看着你妈妈，她在哭。
And I said, what's the matter?
我说，怎么了？
And she said, well, you're a Christian, and now my husband's a Christian, but I'm the only one that's not a Christian.
她说，好吧，你是基督徒，现在我丈夫也是基督徒，但我是唯一一个不是基督徒的人。
I just feel now it seems there's a line between me and Daddy.
我现在只是觉得我和爸爸之间似乎有一条界限。
And so that make me mixed feeling, really mixed feeling.
这让我感觉很复杂，真的很复杂。
You felt like there was a line, like a dividing line between you and Dad at that moment?
那一刻你感觉你和爸爸之间有一条线，就像一条分界线？
Yeah, because he became a child of God.
是的，因为他成为了神的孩子。
I'm not yet.
我还没有。
So it feels like we are now in a different path.
所以感觉我们现在正走在一条不同的道路上。
And I said, well, be patient.
我说，好吧，要有耐心。
We'll get to that.
我们会解决这个问题的。
But you need to know what it's all about first.
但你首先需要知道这是什么。
[CHUCKLES] Oh, I loved your parents.
[笑]哦，我爱你的父母。
How long after my dad came to Christ until my mom came to Christ as well?
我父亲信主后多久我妈妈也信主了？
Oh, it was only maybe a month or two or three weeks.
哦，可能只有一个月或两三个星期。
Over the phone, I didn't have the courage to tell this kindly old man who led my parents to the path of Christianity, who then raised me on that path, that I rejected all of that and that I'm still recovering.
在电话里，我没有勇气告诉这位善良的老人，他带领我的父母走上了基督教的道路，然后又在这条道路上养育了我，我拒绝了这一切，我仍在康复中。
But then, when I go to him in person, I resolve to tell him the full truth.
但当我亲自去找他时，我决定告诉他全部真相。
Dave is in an assisted living facility now.
戴夫现在住在辅助生活设施中。
In the lobby, I meet his son and daughter-in-law, who had asked that I not record the conversation.
在大厅里，我遇到了他的儿子和儿媳，他们要求我不要录音。
Dave had fallen recently and broken a vertebrae.
戴夫最近跌倒并骨折了。
He sits in an armchair in his room and wears a neck brace.
他坐在房间里的扶手椅上，戴着颈托。
If he sneezes or laughs too hard, he can hurt himself.
如果他打喷嚏或笑得太厉害，他可能会伤害自己。
After a softball question, I forced myself to come clean.
在一个垒球问题之后，我强迫自己坦白。
I'm no longer Christian.
我不再是基督徒了。
How does he feel about people he tried to lead to Christ who either didn't believe or later left?
他对那些他试图带领他们归向基督的人有什么看法，但他们要么不信，要么后来离开了？
Dave smiles.
戴夫微笑着。
He asks if I'd heard the story of the prodigal son.
他问我是否听说过浪子的故事。
It's a classic, one of Jesus's most famous parables, where a failson disobeys his dad and later returns to him, penitent and willing to accept any punishment.
这是一个经典，是耶稣最著名的寓言之一，其中一个失败者违背了他的父亲，后来回到他身边，悔罪并愿意接受任何惩罚。
But instead, his dad forgives him and welcomes him home.
但相反，他的父亲原谅了他并欢迎他回家。
Dave then explains that he has a daughter who left the church.
戴夫随后解释说，他有一个离开教会的女儿。
In high school, she angrily confronted Dave with tears in her eyes and told him, Dad, please apologize to me for being a Christian.
高中时，她含着泪水愤怒地面对戴夫，告诉他，爸爸，请为我是基督徒而向我道歉。
I think I understand what she meant by that.
我想我明白她的意思。
It's a way of saying, apologize for making this decision for me, for raising me with this belief I didn't choose and that I don't agree with.
这是一种表达方式，为我做出这个决定而道歉，为我以这种我没有选择、我不同意的信念抚养长大。
In a sense, I'm asking him the same thing-- Yeye, why did you convert my parents?
从某种意义上说，我在问他同样的事情——夜夜，你为什么要改变我的父母？
His daughter left the faith.
他的女儿离开了信仰。
Dave didn't try to convince her of anything, just kept loving her and praying for her.
戴夫没有试图说服她任何事情，只是继续爱她并为她祈祷。
And after 20 years, she, like the prodigal son, returned to the faith and to her father.
20年后，她像浪子一样，回到了信仰，回到了父亲身边。
These days, she visits him every week in the assisted living facility.
这些天，她每周都会去辅助生活设施探望他。
Dave emphasizes again that he never forced anyone to believe anything, that if someone chooses to reject Christianity, they need to be loved, whatever their decision is.
戴夫再次强调，他从未强迫任何人相信任何事情，如果有人选择拒绝基督教，他们需要被爱，无论他们的决定是什么。
But he also tells me, there will be nobody going to hell who didn't have an opportunity to accept Christ.
但他也告诉我，没有机会接受基督的人不会下地狱。
He says it in a way that isn't angry or spiteful-- just sad, almost kind.
他说这句话时的语气中没有愤怒或恶意——只是悲伤，几乎是善意的。
It's getting late.
天色已晚了。
Dave needs to take his medication.
戴夫需要服药。
We stand up.
我们站起来。
I love you, he tells me.
我爱你，他告诉我。
Give my love to your parents.
将我的爱转达给你的父母。
We hug.
我们拥抱。
And I get it.
我明白了。
I get why my parents converted.
我明白为什么我的父母改变了。
This man is filled with so much love and gives it so freely-- to my parents, to me, to all of the people he picked up from the airport and fed and sheltered and helped get on their feet.
这个男人充满了如此多的爱，并且如此无私地给予——给我的父母，给我，给所有他从机场接他、为他提供食物、住所并帮助他们重新站起来的人。
Where does his love come from?
他的爱从何而来？
In the moment, I'm convinced that it must be something beyond what any human is capable of.
此刻，我确信这一定是超出任何人类能力的事情。
It must come from God.
它必须来自上帝。
On the receiving end of his unconditional love, I consider being the prodigal son.
在接受他无条件的爱时，我认为自己是个浪子。
For the briefest flash of a moment, I consider returning.
在最短暂的一瞬间，我考虑回来。
Can I pray for you?
我可以为你祈祷吗？
Boen Wang When we were on the phone, this is how Dave ended the call.
Boen Wang 当我们通电话时，Dave 就这样结束了通话。
I didn't feel like I could say no. I didn't want to disappoint my white grandpa.
我觉得我无法拒绝。我不想让我的白人爷爷失望。
Sure.
当然。
Dave OK.
戴夫 好的。
Lord, thank you for this wonderful invention, the phone, that Boen and me may join our hearts at the throne of grace.
主啊，感谢你发明了电话这个奇妙的发明，让我和伯恩可以在施恩的宝座前与我们心连心。
And Lord, I just want to thank you for Boen calling.
主啊，我只想感谢你给伯恩打来电话。
And I pray that, for the rest of his life, that he will walk with you till he draws his last breath.
我祈祷，在他的余生中，他能与你同行，直到他咽下最后一口气。
In Christ's name, Amen.
奉基督的名，阿门。
Amen.
阿门。
I talked to Dave on Saturday night.
周六晚上我和戴夫谈过。
Come Sunday, it's obvious where I have to go.
到了周日，我要去哪里就很明显了。
Quick voice memo, because I'm already late, but I'm at the church.
快速语音备忘录，因为我已经迟到了，但我在教堂。
Kind of tired.
有点累了。
Woke up at 8:30.
8点30分就醒了。
Stayed up too late last night.
昨晚熬夜太晚了。
Already late, but I'm going to go to this Mandarin Sunday school.
已经晚了，但我要去这个普通话主日学校。
We'll see how it goes.
我们会看看事情进展如何。
This is the church where Dave led the Chinese fellowship, the one my parents attended and that I attended as an infant until we moved away when I was two.
这是戴夫领导中国团契的教堂，我的父母也参加过这个教堂，我小时候也参加过这个教堂，直到我两岁的时候我们搬走了。
What did this place mean to them?
这个地方对他们来说意味着什么？
These are people who had zero experience with organized religion.
这些人对有组织的宗教经验为零。
What do they get from going?
他们出去能得到什么？
The Chinese Fellowship is now run by seven people, seven Daves, in other words, three of whom are Chinese and four of whom are white.
华人联谊会现在由七个人管理，七位戴夫，换句话说，其中三人是华人，四人是白人。
I spoke to one of the new white Daves over the phone, who told me that I could record the service.
我通过电话与一位新白人戴夫交谈，他告诉我可以录制这次仪式。
But a few days later, while I was cooking butternut squash risotto, he called again and told me he had found a podcast called Jesus Wept.
但几天后，当我正在煮胡桃南瓜烩饭时，他再次打电话告诉我他发现了一个名为“耶稣哭泣”的播客。
[JESUS WEPT THEME MUSIC] Jesus Wept is a podcast my fiancée Grace and I make, where we analyze and, to be honest, make fun of various topics related to evangelical Christianity.
[耶稣哭泣主题音乐] 耶稣哭泣是我和未婚妻格蕾丝制作的一个播客，我们在其中分析并说实话，取笑与福音派基督教相关的各种主题。
We process our respective religious traumas through humor.
我们通过幽默来处理各自的宗教创伤。
In the most recent episode, I went to a Chinese church and recorded the service.
在最近的一集中，我去了一家华人教堂并录制了仪式。
Afterwards, Grace and I critiqued the speakers and-- again, to be honest-- made fun of them.
之后，格蕾丝和我批评了演讲者，并且——说实话——再次取笑了他们。
I told Grace about how one of the speakers said that because Paul writes that women shouldn't have authority over men, she won't teach men in the church.
我告诉格蕾丝，一位演讲者说，因为保罗写道，女人不应该拥有凌驾于男人之上的权威，所以她不会在教会里教导男人。
So then, basically, she is like, well, in the church, I will teach women, I will teach children, but I will not teach men, except in specific circumstances.
所以，基本上，她就像，嗯，在教堂里，我会教女人，我会教孩子，但我不会教男人，除非在特定情况下。
Like what?
比如什么？
Boen Wang I don't know, but--
王伯恩 我不知道，但是——
How to change a diaper?
如何换尿布？
Boen Wang [CHUCKLES] Maybe.
王伯恩 [笑] 也许吧。
Or--
或者——
But she can't teach?
但她不会教书吗？
Boen Wang Yeah.
王博恩 是啊。
I don't know.
我不知道。
New Dave tells me over the phone that after listening to the podcast, he's changed his mind and won't allow me to record anything in Norman, which is reasonable.
New Dave 在电话中告诉我，听完播客后，他改变了主意，不允许我用诺曼语录制任何内容，这是合理的。
I recorded a church service and made fun of it, and he doesn't want me to do the same thing to his church.
我录制了一场教堂礼拜并取笑了它，他不希望我对他的教堂做同样的事情。
In the podcast, I talk about how I don't believe in God.
在播客中，我谈论了我如何不相信上帝。
And as we wrap up the conversation, New Dave says he needs my word that I won't record anything.
当我们结束谈话时，纽戴夫说他需要我保证我不会录制任何内容。
He says, I know you don't believe in God, but there must be something you can base your word on, like your Chinese heritage--
他说，我知道你不信上帝，但你的话一定有依据，比如你的中国血统——
[ORIENTAL RIFF] --which is kind of a weird thing to say.
[东方即兴演奏]——这样说有点奇怪。
But I'm like, sure, you have my word.
但我想，当然，我向你保证。
See you Sunday.
周日见。
When I enter the church, New Dave is waiting in the lobby.
当我进入教堂时，纽戴夫正在大厅里等候。
I shake his hand and tell him I'm not recording-- that was a royalty-free sound effect from freesound.org-- although I do have the pink notebook I'd bought from Target for $3.
我握了握他的手，告诉他我不会录音——那是来自 freesound.org 的免版税音效——尽管我有从 Target 花 3 美元买的粉色笔记本。
We walk past an armed guard to the gymnasium, where the Mandarin Sunday school is held.
我们经过一名武装警卫来到体育馆，那里举办普通话主日学。
It seems notable that the Mandarin Sunday school isn't in a dedicated classroom, but an echoey gym with a basketball court.
值得注意的是，普通话主日学并不是在专门的教室里，而是在一个有篮球场的回声体育馆里。
New Dave introduces me to a group of Chinese immigrants sitting around a folding table.
纽戴夫向我介绍了一群围坐在折叠桌旁的中国移民。
They ask if I can speak Chinese.
他们问我是否会说中文。
I say I can understand it OK, but not speak it that well.
我说我听得懂，但说得不好。
New Dave is like, ah, there's that phrase, ABC.
新戴夫就像，啊，有那个短语，ABC。
[ORIENTAL RIFF] And I'm like, yep, that's me, American Born Chinese.
[东方即兴] 我想，是的，这就是我，美国出生的中国人。
As a side note, I really hate the phrase ABC.
顺便说一句，我真的很讨厌 ABC 这个短语。
Just call me Chinese-American.
就叫我美籍华人吧。
Anyway, New Dave says that since he can't speak Mandarin, he's going to leave us to it.
不管怎样，新戴夫说，既然他不会说普通话，那就让我们自己来吧。
It's nice to be away from white people, at least for a little bit, to talk among ourselves in the language I associate with family, home, love.
离开白人，至少暂时离开，用我与家人、家庭、爱情联系在一起的语言进行交谈，这感觉很好。
My parents must have really craved that when they first came here.
当我的父母第一次来到这里时，他们一定非常渴望这个。
Where else could they find a Chinese community in a small town in Oklahoma?
在俄克拉荷马州的一个小镇上，他们还能在哪里找到华人社区呢？
Someone later tells me that this church is usually the first stop for new Chinese immigrants.
后来有人告诉我，这座教堂通常是中国新移民的第一站。
People from church are willing to give rides to the supermarket, furniture for apartments, help with taxes, and all sorts of essential services.
教会的人们愿意提供去超市的乘车、公寓的家具、税收方面的帮助以及各种基本服务。
My mom still uses a set of bowls that Dave got for her.
我妈妈仍然使用戴夫给她买的一套碗。
When the service begins, we sing hymns in Mandarin.
仪式开始时，我们用普通话唱赞美诗。
Again, this is not a recording from Oklahoma.
再次强调，这不是来自俄克拉荷马州的录音。
It's YouTube.
这是 YouTube。
The speaker, an older white guy, delivers the sermon in English.
演讲者是一位年长的白人，用英语进行布道。
And like most sermons, it's boring.
就像大多数布道一样，它很无聊。
I picture my parents in these same seats, praying the same prayers, singing the same songs that I would grow up singing.
我想象着我的父母坐在同样的座位上，做着同样的祈祷，唱着我长大后会唱的同样的歌曲。
Boen Wang.
王本恩.
Coming up, Boen flies home and considers the question-- maybe it wasn't Christianity that messed him up as a kid.
抵达后，博恩飞回家并思考这个问题——也许并不是基督教让他小时候陷入困境。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
Part Two: Part Two Ira Glass It's This American Life.
第二部分：第二部分 Ira Glass 这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program, Children of Dave, Boen Wang's pilgrimage to finally understand why his parents decided to become Christians when they arrived in America.
今天的节目《戴夫的孩子》讲述了王伯恩的朝圣之旅，最终了解了他的父母为何在抵达美国后决定成为基督徒。
We pick up our story where we left off before the break.
我们从休息前停下来的地方继续讲故事。
When I fly home to Pittsburgh and tell Grace about going to my parents' church and meeting Dave, they point out that maybe I'm just blaming Christianity for my own problems.
当我飞回匹兹堡的家，告诉格蕾丝去我父母的教堂并见到戴夫时，他们指出也许我只是把自己的问题归咎于基督教。
Maybe Christianity is just my excuse to hate myself.
也许基督教只是我恨自己的借口。
It gave my self-loathing a shape and structure, but it isn't the root cause.
它给了我自我厌恶的形状和结构，但这不是根本原因。
Maybe I would have hated myself no matter what.
也许无论如何我都会讨厌自己。
Maybe it doesn't matter what path my dad chose at that crossroads in the Oklahoma City airport.
也许我父亲在俄克拉荷马城机场的十字路口选择哪条路并不重要。
If he never met Dave and never believed, maybe I'd still have the same self-loathing.
如果他从未见过戴夫并且从未相信过，也许我仍然会有同样的自我厌恶。
If I grew up communist like my parents, maybe I'd be like, ugh, I'm such a bourgeois, capitalist, worthless piece of shit.
如果我像我父母一样在共产主义背景下长大，也许我会说，呃，我就是一个资产阶级、资本主义、一文不值的废物。
I need to write another self-criticism and do another struggle session.
我还要再写一篇检讨，再办一次斗争会。
Thankfully, I can answer the question of whether I'd hate myself if I hadn't been raised Christian by comparing myself with my high school friend, Andrew.
值得庆幸的是，我可以通过将自己与高中朋友安德鲁进行比较来回答这个问题：如果我不是在基督教环境下长大的，我是否会恨自己。
Andrew grew up in the same suburb of Philly as me.
安德鲁和我在费城同一个郊区长大。
His parents are highly-educated Chinese immigrants.
他的父母都是受过高等教育的中国移民。
We attended the same school district and have the same circle of friends.
我们就读于同一个学区，有同样的朋友圈。
But he was raised by atheist parents who were never interested in Christianity or church.
但他是由无神论者父母抚养长大的，他们对基督教或教会从来不感兴趣。
I asked my mom one time.
有一次我问过妈妈。
I was like, have you ever been to church?
我当时就想，你去过教堂吗？
And she was like, uh, yeah, of course we've been to church.
她说，呃，是的，我们当然去过教堂。
And then what she really meant was that we walked into a church one time and walked out.
她真正的意思是，我们有一次走进一座教堂，然后又走了出去。
So I sit Andrew down and tell him that I want to conduct a science experiment.
所以我让安德鲁坐下来告诉他我想进行一个科学实验。
Where you're the atheist control group, and I am the ex-Christian test subject.
你们是无神论者对照组，而我是前基督徒测试对象。
OK, I understand that we have a sample size of two, but just humor me.
好吧，我知道我们的样本量是两个，但请幽默一下。
Andrew has lived the life I always imagined-- a life without church or youth group or Bible study or retreats near Lancaster, out in Amish country.
安德鲁过着我一直想象的生活——在兰卡斯特附近的阿米什乡村，没有教堂、青年团体、圣经学习或静修所的生活。
And so my question is, in this alternate atheist reality that Andrew was raised in, does he also struggle with self-loathing?
所以我的问题是，在安德鲁成长的这个另类无神论现实中，他是否也与自我厌恶作斗争？
Does he not like himself?
他不喜欢自己吗？
I don't like myself.
我不喜欢自己。
Boen Wang OK, all right.
王伯恩 好的，好的。
Well, fine.
好吧，好吧。
But does he dislike himself the same amount as I do, in the same way?
但他是否和我一样不喜欢自己，以同样的方式呢？
Does he do the thing where I ask someone endless follow-up questions, and if they ask me something, I do verbal jujitsu and redirect it back to them, because I hate talking about myself, because I hate myself?
他是否会做这样的事情：我问某人没完没了的后续问题，如果他们问我什么，我会做口头柔术并将其重定向回给他们，因为我讨厌谈论自己，因为我讨厌自己？
So familiar.
如此熟悉。
I could say those exact same words.
我可以说同样的话。
And that's exactly what I do.
这正是我所做的。
Like, if Andrew is meeting one of his colleagues for the first time, he'll be like--
就像，如果安德鲁第一次见到他的一位同事，他会像——
What department are you in?
你在什么部门？
How long have you been in the university for?
你在大学呆了多久了？
What kind of research are you doing?
你在做什么类型的研究？
What's your lab like?
你的实验室是什么样的？
Who are you working with?
你和谁一起工作？
And if someone asks Andrew a question like what his research is, he'll be like--
如果有人问安德鲁一个问题，比如他的研究是什么，他会这样——
Oh, I work in biostats.
哦，我在生物统计学家工作。
And then I just call it a day.
然后我就到此为止了。
I just make sure as hard as possible that they don't ask me any questions.
我只是尽可能确保他们不会问我任何问题。
I don't want to talk about it.
我不想谈论它。
Andrew didn't even have to grow up Christian to hate himself and for his self-hatred to manifest in the exact same way.
安德鲁甚至不必在成长过程中成为基督徒，也会憎恨自己，并且他的自我憎恨也会以完全相同的方式表现出来。
So where is this coming from?
那么这是从哪里来的呢？
Andrew doesn't believe in sin or God.
安德鲁不相信罪或上帝。
Why do we hate ourselves, even though we were raised with such different beliefs?
尽管我们是在如此不同的信仰中长大的，为什么我们会恨自己？
Well, Andrew thinks the answer might be right in front of us.
好吧，安德鲁认为答案可能就在我们面前。
I wonder, with this science experiment, maybe the main thing that's balancing us, that makes us comparable, is a second generation upbringing.
我想知道，通过这个科学实验，也许平衡我们、使我们具有可比性的主要因素是第二代的成长。
Our parents are from a very specific cohort of people who grew up during the Cultural Revolution, went to the best colleges in China, went abroad to get STEM PhDs, and got well-paying jobs in academia and pharmaceuticals and biomedicine.
我们的父母来自一个非常特殊的群体，他们在文化大革命期间长大，毕业于中国最好的大学，出国获得 STEM 博士学位，并在学术界、制药和生物医学领域找到了高薪工作。
And I think that, to me, makes me always kind of feel inadequate in a way, right?
我认为，对我来说，这让我在某种程度上总是感觉自己不够好，对吧？
Like, I'll never be able to do that.
就像，我永远无法做到这一点。
I'll never be able to achieve that rags-to-riches kind of story, because I was never in rags.
我永远无法实现那种白手起家的故事，因为我从来都不是衣衫褴褛的。
[CHUCKLES] My parents were the ones that struggled through that.
[笑]我的父母是那些在这件事上挣扎的人。
So we're more or less on the same page when it comes to self-loathing.
因此，在自我厌恶方面，我们或多或少是有共识的。
But what about the shame I feel about sex and sexuality?
但是我对性和性行为感到羞耻又如何呢？
What about my inability to talk about the horny Zendaya tennis movie with Grace?
我无法与格蕾丝谈论性感的赞达亚网球电影怎么办？
Does Andrew feel that same immense shame?
安德鲁是否也感到同样巨大的耻辱？
So, then, how did you feel about sex, morally?
那么，从道德上来说，你对性的感受如何？
There's nothing wrong with it.
没有什么问题。
I think this is also somewhat funny that a lot of Christians will marry early, right?
我认为这也有点有趣，很多基督徒会早婚，对吧？
Because they have to marry before they have sex.
因为他们必须先结婚再发生性行为。
But for people that don't grow up Christian, the consensual act of sex is just not a problem.
但对于非基督徒长大的人来说，双方同意的性行为并不是问题。
Andrew started dating when he was 15.
安德鲁 15 岁时开始约会。
I didn't start until a decade later.
直到十年后我才开始。
When we tried to isolate the effect Christianity had on me, that's the word we kept returning to-- shame.
当我们试图孤立基督教对我的影响时，我们不断回到这个词——羞耻。
The shame I feel about having a body, about being a wretched sinner in need of redemption-- Andrew feels none of that.
我为自己拥有一个身体、为自己是一个需要救赎的可怜罪人而感到羞耻——安德鲁却没有任何感觉。
The shame goes to my very core in a way that Andrew can't relate to.
这种耻辱深入到我的内心深处，而安德鲁却无法体会。
I told him about how, even today, when I remember something embarrassing I said, or did years ago--
我告诉他，即使在今天，当我记得几年前我说过或做过的一些令人尴尬的事情时——
I'll still say out loud to myself, because it's such a reflex at this point, of, like, oh, I hate myself.
我仍然会大声对自己说，因为此时此刻这是一种反射，就像，哦，我讨厌自己。
I should kill myself.
我应该自杀。
Like, I verbalize that.
就像我用语言表达的那样。
You still say that?
你还这么说？
Boen Wang Yeah.
王博恩 是啊。
You act surprised.
你表现得很惊讶。
Have you ever done this?
你曾经这样做过吗？
Have you ever said-- no?
你有没有说过——不？
No?
不？
But I-- yeah, that's intense, man.
但我——是的，这太激烈了，伙计。
That's intense reflex.
这是强烈的反射。
[LAUGHS] I don't have that reflex.
[笑]我没有那种反应能力。
Are you telling me that you've never said out loud to yourself, I hate myself.
你是不是在告诉我，你从来没有对自己大声说过，我讨厌自己。
I want to kill myself.
我想自杀。
You never said that, Andrew?
你从来没有这么说过，安德鲁？
I have never said that.
我从来没有这么说过。
That's the Christian difference, man.
这就是基督徒的区别，伙计。
[LAUGHTER] That's the Christian difference.
[笑声] 这就是基督教的区别。
Yeah.
是的。
[PIANO COVER OF "DO YOU REALIZE??"]
[钢琴翻唱《你意识到吗？？》]
The Christian difference is a belief that my existence is fundamentally wrong.
基督徒的差异在于相信我的存在从根本上来说是错误的。
The Christian difference is a need to punish myself for my existence.
基督徒的不同之处在于需要为自己的存在而惩罚自己。
I don't regret being raised Christian.
我不后悔自己是基督徒。
I wouldn't be who I am today otherwise.
否则我就不会是今天的我。
And I'm incredibly grateful for everything my parents have done for me.
我非常感谢我的父母为我所做的一切。
But on this one aspect, I know I would have experienced less pain if my dad had stood at that crossroads in the Oklahoma City airport and chosen a different path.
但就这一方面而言，我知道，如果我父亲站在俄克拉荷马城机场的十字路口并选择了另一条路，我所经历的痛苦就会少一些。
I never told my parents about the damage Christianity caused me.
我从未告诉我的父母基督教对我造成的伤害。
I didn't want to make them feel bad or think I was blaming them.
我不想让他们感觉不好或认为我在责怪他们。
I didn't want to seem ungrateful.
我不想显得忘恩负义。
But now, it's what I finally decide to do.
但现在，这就是我最终决定要做的事情。
At this point, it's the only thing I can do.
此时此刻，这是我唯一能做的了。
I was actually damaged by going to church and being raised in church.
事实上，我因为去教堂并在教堂长大而受到了伤害。
Does that make sense?
这有道理吗？
Do you understand that?
你明白吗？
It's heartbreaking to realize.
意识到这一点真是令人心碎。
And of course, whatever happened in the past, it's gone.
当然，无论过去发生过什么，都已经过去了。
It's the past, right?
已经过去了，对吧？
But I just feel that we could have done better.
但我只是觉得我们可以做得更好。
We could have done better.
我们本来可以做得更好。
Because we really didn't check on how you received the information.
因为我们确实没有检查您是如何收到信息的。
We didn't really talk to you that much.
我们其实并没有和你聊那么多。
And we just receive automatically without checking.
我们只是自动接收而不检查。
And we just blindly believe everything that church teaches is right.
我们只是盲目地相信教会所教导的一切都是正确的。
Yes, because-- I mean that blindly not believe what church is teaching-- the way they teach.
是的，因为——我的意思是盲目地不相信教会所教导的——他们教导的方式。
Yeah.
是的。
So then do you have any regrets, then, about raising me and sister in the church?
那你对在教会养育我和姊妹有什么遗憾吗？
Yes, but after you said that to me.
是的，但是在你对我说了那句话之后。
Yeah, I do feel.
是的，我确实有感觉。
I do feel I didn't really pay too much attention to how they taught you, how they taught you, and how that has print on you and how that manifest in your overall well-being.
我确实觉得我并没有真正关注他们如何教你，他们如何教你，以及这对你有何影响以及如何体现在你的整体幸福感中。
Yeah, I do feel very sorry.
是的，我确实感到非常遗憾。
I was not expecting this.
我没想到会这样。
I always thought my mom and dad were a united front, true believers.
我一直以为我的妈妈和爸爸是统一战线的忠实信徒。
When I first interviewed my mom about converting to Christianity, she described it as this happy moment when she joined my dad in the same belief.
当我第一次采访我妈妈关于皈依基督教的事情时，她形容这是她怀着同样的信念加入我父亲的幸福时刻。
I feel we are same people now.
我感觉我们现在是同一个人了。
[LAUGHS] We are same people.
[笑]我们是同一个人。
We are equal footing.
我们是平等的。
We are children of God.
我们是神的孩子。
But when I came back to her a few months later--
但几个月后我回到她身边时——
Actually, I was thinking that the time I decided to become a Christian, I think I'm very premature to make my decision because I really do not know much, and I just got here.
其实我在想，当我决定成为一名基督徒的时候，我觉得我做出这个决定还为时过早，因为我真的了解不多，而且我才刚刚来到这里。
And the things has been changed dramatically for me in every aspect.
对我来说，事情在各个方面都发生了巨大的变化。
And I don't really have that kind of self-confidence to my own belief.
而我对自己的信仰真的没有那种自信。
So I feel there are a lot of outside factors.
所以我觉得有很多外部因素。
My mom wants to be clear about this here on the radio.
我妈妈想在广播中澄清这一点。
She will always be thankful to the people from church who helped her get on her feet, in the same way that I want to be clear that I'll always be thankful to my parents.
她将永远感谢教会中帮助她站起来的人，就像我想明确的那样，我将永远感谢我的父母。
But looking back, my mom sees that the kindness of Christians can be transactional.
但回想起来，我妈妈发现基督徒的善意可以是交易性的。
We give you free stuff, and in return, you go to church.
我们给你免费的东西，作为回报，你去教堂。
This is how church tries to get those people to become believers.
这就是教会试图让这些人成为信徒的方式。
No, if you really believe, you are not bribing that person to become a believer.
不，如果你真的相信，你就不会贿赂那个人成为信徒。
That's my point.
这就是我的观点。
You think it's bribery?
你认为这是贿赂吗？
Mom Yeah, I think that's a bribery.
妈妈 是的，我认为这是贿赂。
That's a strong word, Mom.
这是一个强烈的词，妈妈。
Mom Yeah, I do feel-- no, I do feel that's a bribery.
妈妈 是的，我确实觉得——不，我确实觉得这是贿赂。
You bribe those people.
你贿赂那些人。
You give them free lunch, free ride, free stuff.
你给他们免费午餐、免费乘车、免费东西。
[LAUGHS] Yeah.
[笑]是的。
Well, how about all the free stuff that you and Dad got when you were first in Oklahoma?
好吧，当你第一次来到俄克拉荷马州时，你和爸爸得到的所有免费东西怎么样？
I didn't really think about that at the moment.
我当时并没有真正考虑过这一点。
Now I feel, yeah.
现在我觉得，是的。
Over the years, my mom's been really hurt by people from church.
多年来，我妈妈深受教会人士的伤害。
She had raised questions about the Bible.
她提出了有关圣经的问题。
Like, if God created everything, why did He also create Satan?
就像，如果上帝创造了一切，为什么他也创造了撒旦？
Why would He allow Satan to tempt Eve into eating the forbidden fruit?
为什么他会允许撒但引诱夏娃吃禁果呢？
Why would He even create forbidden fruit in the first place?
他为什么要创造禁果呢？
No one at church would ever fully engage with her.
教堂里没有人会完全与她交往。
They'd give her surface-level platitudes that never satisfied her.
他们会给她一些肤浅的陈词滥调，但这些陈词滥调却永远令她不满意。
There was also a period when she was depressed.
她也曾有过一段沮丧的时期。
I remember coming home from school and seeing my mom lying on the couch with the lights turned off and the curtains closed.
我记得放学回家，看到妈妈躺在沙发上，灯关了，窗帘也拉上了。
My mom tells me that while some people at church helped her in this moment, others weren't so kind, and some actually seemed happy that she was suffering.
我妈妈告诉我，虽然教堂里的一些人在这一刻帮助了她，但其他人并不那么友善，有些人实际上似乎很高兴她正在受苦。
I think now they believe-- they already labeled me as a non-believer.
我想现在他们相信了——他们已经给我贴上了非信徒的标签。
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
Why do they think that you're a non-believer?
为什么他们认为你是一个非信徒？
Because I don't go to church anymore.
因为我不再去教堂了。
I do not participate in any kind of church activities.
我不参加任何形式的教会活动。
Because I don't get anything from participating in all those activities.
因为参加所有这些活动我没有得到任何东西。
And if I ask them questions, they give me standard answers.
如果我问他们问题，他们会给我标准答案。
I just feel I'm in a circle, [LAUGHS] not going anywhere.
我只是觉得我在一个圈子里，[笑]哪儿也去不了。
I don't really get enriched or enlightened by doing all those activities.
我并没有通过做所有这些活动而真正变得丰富或启发。
She hasn't been there since the pandemic shut everything down and is much happier for it.
自从大流行导致一切关闭以来，她就没有去过那里，并且为此感到高兴多了。
But as my mom withdrew from church, my dad got even more involved.
但随着我妈妈退出教会，我爸爸变得更加参与其中。
He became a deacon and spent more and more time at church functions and less and less time at home with his family.
他成为一名执事，花在教堂活动上的时间越来越多，在家陪伴家人的时间越来越少。
If someone needed a ride to the supermarket, he would do it.
如果有人需要搭车去超市，他就会这么做。
If someone needed a ride to the airport, he would do it.
如果有人需要搭车去机场，他就会这么做。
My mom was not happy about this.
我妈妈对此很不高兴。
I feel he's like a robot.
我感觉他就像一个机器人。
He just does it automatically whenever someone-- from all directions, to the point that he completely crazy.
每当有人从四面八方而来时，他就会自动这样做，以至于他完全疯了。
So that is time I think the church can destroy a family.
所以我认为教会可以摧毁一个家庭。
Church can really destroy a family because when you are not really thinking on the same level, at the same level, on the same page, and you kind of just go apart.
教会确实可以摧毁一个家庭，因为当你们没有真正在同一水平、同一水平、同一页上思考时，你们就会分开。
So do you feel like church almost destroyed our family?
那么你觉得教会几乎毁掉了我们的家庭吗？
Yes.
是的。
I was really, really upset at one point.
有一次我真的非常非常沮丧。
So my mom finally put her foot down and gave my dad an ultimatum.
所以我妈妈最终坚定了立场，给我爸爸下了最后通牒。
And I told Dad, you quit your deacon now.
我告诉爸爸，你现在辞去你的执事职务了。
Otherwise, we are not going to have a same life under the same roof.
否则，我们不会在同一个屋檐下过同样的生活。
So Daddy sent a letter to church that he's going to resign.
于是爸爸给教会写了一封信，表示他要辞职。
It was almost comforting, realizing I wasn't the odd one out in my family.
当我意识到自己并不是家里唯一的异类时，我感到很欣慰。
I thought I was the only one who was damaged by Christianity and who left the church.
我以为我是唯一一个被基督教伤害而离开教会的人。
I thought it was me against them, but it turns out that my mom was actually on my side this whole time.
我以为是我反对他们，但事实证明我妈妈其实一直站在我这边。
Who knew?
谁知道？
I wasn't surprised that my dad gave in to my mom, though.
不过，我对父亲屈服于母亲并不感到惊讶。
When it comes down to it, he puts family first.
归根结底，他把家庭放在第一位。
I asked him once if he ever had any regrets, and he told me the story about how, when my sister was a baby, he discovered that she had torn up an important piece of mail.
有一次我问他是否后悔过，他给我讲了一个故事，当我妹妹还是个婴儿时，他发现她撕毁了一封重要的邮件。
My dad yelled at her and made her cry, and then he thought to himself, why did I do that?
我爸爸对她大喊大叫，让她哭了，然后他心想，我为什么要这么做？
She's just a baby.
她只是个婴儿。
She doesn't understand what she's doing.
她不明白自己在做什么。
And he remembered that moment forever.
他永远记得那一刻。
So he's always been a kind, thoughtful, reflective person who wants the best for us.
所以他一直是一个善良、体贴、善于思考的人，希望我们能得到最好的。
He's also always been a true believer, going back to the very beginning.
他也一直是一个真正的信徒，从一开始就是如此。
My dad has been accepted to the University of Oklahoma.
我父亲已被俄克拉荷马大学录取。
He applies for his passport and visa so that he can leave Beijing.
他申请护照和签证以便离开北京。
On the evening of June 3, my parents watched the news on their landlord's TV since they don't have one of their own.
6月3日晚上，我的父母在房东的电视上观看了新闻，因为他们没有自己的电视。
There's a TV announcement say don't go to Tiananmen Square.
电视上有广告说不要去天安门广场。
[SPEAKING MANDARIN] Boen Wang They go to bed.
[普通话] Boen Wang 他们去睡觉了。
In the middle of the night, we heard some gunshots.
半夜，我们听到一些枪声。
And on the morning of June 4, they wake up.
6月4日早上，他们醒来了。
In the morning, we were planning to visit a friend, to bicycle to her home.
早上，我们打算去拜访一位朋友，骑自行车去她家。
On the way, we saw a lot of buses.
一路上，我们看到了很多公交车。
They were turned around and blocked the road.
他们被调转方向，挡住了路。
And also, a lot of huge trucks, like armored vehicles, just parked along the highways, blocking the road.
而且，很多巨型卡车，就像装甲车一样，停在高速公路沿线，堵塞了道路。
All the government offices are shut down.
所有政府办公室均已关闭。
The entire city is shut down.
整个城市都被封锁了。
To get his passport, my dad now needs a letter from his workplace saying he didn't participate in the demonstrations.
为了获得护照，我父亲现在需要他工作单位的一封信，表明他没有参加示威活动。
But there's a problem.
但有一个问题。
He had to quit his job to apply for the passport.
他不得不辞掉工作去申请护照。
And they're saying that since he doesn't work there anymore, they can't provide him with that letter.
他们说，由于他不再在那里工作，他们无法向他提供那封信。
My dad is freaking out.
我爸爸吓坏了。
He staked his entire life on studying abroad.
他把一生的赌注都押在了出国留学上。
This was his plan, his future, his chance to leave his boring job in a Jeep factory, living in his tiny room in Beijing with no running water or heating or cooling.
这是他的计划，他的未来，他有机会摆脱吉普车工厂无聊的工作，住在北京的小房间里，没有自来水、暖气或制冷。
Now, his future is crumbling before his eyes.
现在，他的未来在他眼前摇摇欲坠。
In this most desperate hour, my dad does something he's never done before.
在这最绝望的时刻，爸爸做了一件他以前从未做过的事情。
So I pray to God, OK, or Shang Di.
所以我向上帝祈祷，好吧，或者上帝。
I ask Shang Di to help me.
我请求尚迪帮助我。
So that's how I think I prayed for the first time.
我想这就是我第一次祈祷的方式。
Were you specifically praying to the God of Christianity at the time?
你当时有专门向基督教的上帝祈祷吗？
We don't have the habit of praying growing up.
我们从小就没有祷告的习惯。
We don't have the habit of praying or talking to a god or something.
我们没有祈祷或与神交谈之类的习惯。
So it just came natural, you know.
所以这很自然，你知道。
I just lying on bed and say, oh, God, help me.
我只是躺在床上说，哦，上帝，帮助我。
I never knew this story.
我从来不知道这个故事。
I thought my dad's first encounter with God was in America.
我以为我父亲第一次见到上帝是在美国。
But two months earlier in Beijing, my dad naturally and spontaneously cried out to a God he didn't yet know or believe in.
但两个月前在北京，我父亲自然而然地向他还不认识或不相信的上帝呼喊。
And then when his workplace finally gave him the letter that allowed him to leave China, it had to be God answering his prayer.
然后，当他的工作单位最终给了他允许他离开中国的信时，这一定是上帝回应了他的祈祷。
So my dad was already primed to believe.
所以我父亲已经准备好相信了。
And when he came to America, he would have encountered a Christian eventually, inevitably.
当他来到美国时，他最终不可避免地会遇到一个基督徒。
So, I think in my case, I will meet someone else, and I will come to the faith, yeah.
所以，我想就我而言，我会遇到其他人，我会找到信仰，是的。
You would have eventually been exposed to Christianity, and you would have always, after having considered it, accepted it.
你最终会接触到基督教，并且在考虑之后你总是会接受它。
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Well, I think it's a fundamental truth.
嗯，我认为这是一个基本事实。
God is revealed to us in the Bible.
神在圣经中向我们启示。
And then everyone has to make a decision either to accept it or to reject it.
然后每个人都必须做出决定，要么接受，要么拒绝。
When my dad stood at the Oklahoma City airport waiting for someone to pick him up, I always thought that he stood at a crossroads, that if Dave hadn't appeared, my dad wouldn't have become Christian.
当我父亲站在俄克拉荷马城机场等待有人接他时，我一直以为他站在十字路口，如果戴夫没有出现，我父亲就不会成为基督徒。
But I understand now that he was ready to be a Christian.
但我现在明白他已经准备好成为一名基督徒了。
Norman's a small town.
诺曼是一个小镇。
He probably would have run into Dave and his Chinese Ministry eventually.
他最终可能会遇到戴夫和他的中国事工。
And even if my dad didn't go to Oklahoma, there are kind Christians with warm smiles in every city in America.
即使我父亲没有去俄克拉荷马州，美国的每个城市都有善良的基督徒带着温暖的微笑。
So the airport didn't matter.
所以机场无所谓。
There was never a crossroads.
从来没有十字路口。
It was a straight line.
这是一条直线。
["DO YOU REALIZE??" BY SHARON VAN ETTEN]
[“你意识到了吗？”作者：莎朗·范·埃滕]
That story by Boen Wang.
王博恩的故事。
He's an audio producer living in Pittsburgh with his fiancée, Grace Gilbert, who came up with the title for today's episode.
他是一名音频制作人，与未婚妻格蕾丝·吉尔伯特 (Grace Gilbert) 居住在匹兹堡，今天这一集的标题是由格蕾丝·吉尔伯特提出的。
Boen's website, boen.cool.
Boen 的网站，boen.cool。
That's B-O-E-N dot cool.
这真是 B-O-E-N 点很酷。
Well, our program was produced today by Lilly Sullivan.
嗯，我们今天的节目是由莉莉·沙利文制作的。
The people who put together today's show include Phia Bennin, Michael Comite, Henry Larson, Seth Lind, Katherine Rae Mondo, Safiyah Riddle, Ryan Rumery, Alissa Shipp, Alix Spiegel, Christopher Swetala, and Matt Tierney.
今天节目的制作人包括 Phia Bennin、Michael Comite、Henry Larson、Seth Lind、Katherine Rae Mondo、Safiyah Riddle、Ryan Rumery、Alissa Shipp、Alix Spiegel、Christopher Swetala 和 Matt Tierney。
Our managing editor is Sarah Abdurrahman.
我们的总编辑是萨拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sarah Abdurrahman)。
Our senior editor is David Kestenbaum.
我们的高级编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。
Our executive editor is Emanuele Barry.
我们的执行编辑是埃马努埃莱·巴里。
Special thanks today to Rebecca Curtis at the University of Oklahoma, Axin Hua, Jenny Lin, Manhong Liu, and Jesse Naus and Greta Zewe at Red Caiman Studios.
今天特别感谢俄克拉荷马大学的 Rebecca Curtis、Axin Hua、Jenny Lin、Manhong Liu、Red Caiman Studios 的 Jesse Naus 和 Greta Zewe。
This is our very last show with our production fellow Safiyah Riddle, who's done a great job here.
这是我们与制作人员萨菲亚·里德尔 (Safiyah Riddle) 合作的最后一场演出，他在这里做得非常出色。
She is off to do reporting for the Associated Press at her next job in Montgomery, Alabama.
她将在阿拉巴马州蒙哥马利的下一份工作中为美联社做报道。
We hope she finds a story down there she can come back and do here on the radio.
我们希望她能在那里找到一个故事，然后回来在广播中报道。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。
If you're looking for something to listen to on a long drive during the summer holiday, you can stream from our archive of over 800 episodes for absolutely free.
如果您想在暑假期间在长途驾驶中寻找一些听的东西，您可以完全免费地从我们的 800 多集档案中观看。
Thisamericanlife.org.
Thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our program's cofounder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
You know, he is the worst babysitter I have ever seen.
你知道，他是我见过的最糟糕的保姆。
Baby won't go to bed, starts crying.
宝宝不肯睡觉，开始哭闹。
Torey's technique?
托雷的技术？
He leans into the crib, looks into the baby's eyes, and says--
他靠在婴儿床上，看着婴儿的眼睛，说道——
Why are you being so immature about this?
为什么你在这件事上这么不成熟？
I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life.
我是艾拉·格拉斯，下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
["DO YOU REALIZE??" BY SHARON VAN ETTEN]
[“你意识到了吗？”作者：莎朗·范·埃滕]
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。