833: Come Retribution - This American Life

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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #833 | June 7, 2024 833: Come Retribution Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.

00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 833 集 | 2024 年 6 月 7 日 833：来报应 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。

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如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。

Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.

文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。

Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.

请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。

Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass It may be a little hard to remember now, but when Donald Trump announced he was officially running for president again this time around, he did not seem inevitable-- far from it.

序言：序言 艾拉·格拉斯 现在可能有点难以记住，但当唐纳德·特朗普宣布他再次正式竞选总统时，他似乎并不是不可避免的——远非如此。

It was a week after the midterm elections where the Trumpiest candidates lost some key races.

中期选举一周后，最支持特朗普的候选人输掉了一些关键竞选。

Polls showed Governor Ron DeSantis beating him for the Republican nomination.

民意调查显示，州长罗恩·德桑蒂斯在共和党提名中击败了他。

He had very few endorsements from other Republican politicians.

他几乎没有得到其他共和党政客的支持。

Jonathan Karl covered Trump's announcement for ABC News, where he's Chief Washington correspondent.

乔纳森·卡尔 (Jonathan Karl) 担任美国广播公司 (ABC) 驻华盛顿首席记者，报道了特朗普的声明。

I mean, I was at Mar-a-Lago.

我是说，我当时在海湖庄园。

It was a really flat speech.

这是一次非常平淡的演讲。

First of all, it was teleprompter Trump.

首先，是提词器特朗普。

He was reading from the teleprompter.

他正在朗读提词器。

And there was no fire and brimstone to it.

而且里面没有火和硫磺。

It was kind of warmed over policy proposals.

人们对政策建议感到有点热情。

It was flat.

它是平的。

But we will bring our supply chains and manufacturing base back home, as we were strongly doing during the Trump administration.

但我们将把我们的供应链和制造基地带回国内，就像我们在特朗普政府期间大力做的那样。

And we will systematically--

我们将系统地——

People tried to leave the room.

人们试图离开房间。

I mean, I was there in Mar-a-Lago.

我是说，我当时在海湖庄园。

I saw people going to the exits halfway through the speech.

演讲进行到一半时，我看到人们走向出口。

And at one point, there were so many people leaving that they actually blocked the exits.

有一次，离开的人太多了，甚至堵住了出口。

They told me it was for security reasons.

他们告诉我这是出于安全原因。

But I don't think he wanted a half-empty Mar-a-Lago ballroom at the conclusion of his presidential announcement.

但我认为他不希望在总统声明结束时看到半空的海湖庄园宴会厅。

So, not a great beginning.

所以，这不是一个好的开始。

When did it turn around?

什么时候转过来的？

Jonathan says that began with the speech that Trump gave a few months later, in March 2023, at the annual CPAC conference of conservatives.

乔纳森说，这始于几个月后，即 2023 年 3 月，特朗普在保守派年度 CPAC 会议上发表的演讲。

It was a very different speech with a very different tone.

这是一次非常不同的演讲，语气也非常不同。

It's really dark, and it is filled with talk about getting, essentially, revenge at those who have wronged him.

这真的很黑暗，而且充满了关于报复那些冤枉他的人的讨论。

Democrat prosecutors-- oh, they're after me for so many things.

民主党检察官——哦，他们在很多事情上追捕我。

Oh, those prosecutors.

哦，那些检察官。

Some are racists.

有些是种族主义者。

Some hate our country.

有些人讨厌我们的国家。

They all hate me.

他们都讨厌我。

They'll get me for anything, anything.

他们会为任何事抓捕我。

"You put a comma in this paragraph.

“你在这一段中加了一个逗号。

Why did you do that?" I don't really know.

你为什么这么做？”我真的不知道。

This is the famous speech where he said, "I am your retribution."

这就是他著名的演讲：“我是你的报应”。

In 2016, I declared, I am your voice.

2016年，我宣布，我是你的声音。

Today I add, I am your warrior, I am your justice.

今天我补充一句，我是你的战士，我是你的正义。

And for those who have been wronged and betrayed, I am your retribution.

而对于那些受过委屈和背叛的人来说，我就是你们的报应。

I am your retribution.

我就是你的报应

[CHEERING] Jonathan Karl And that line, obviously, stuck out in the speech itself.

[欢呼]乔纳森·卡尔 显然，这句话在演讲本身中很突出。

But then speaking to Steve Bannon afterwards--

但事后与史蒂夫·班农交谈——

Steve Bannon, former Trump advisor, still apparently talks to him.

特朗普前顾问史蒂夫·班农显然仍在与他交谈。

--he said that was the pivotal moment in the campaign that the campaign got its mojo.

——他说，这是竞选活动的关键时刻，竞选活动获得了魔力。

And he kept on calling it the Come Retribution speech.

他一直称其为“报应”演讲。

Come Retribution, Bannon explained to Jonathan, was reference to a book about a supposed plot by the Confederacy to kidnap and maybe kill Abraham Lincoln.

班农向乔纳森解释说，《报应来了》指的是一本关于南部邦联绑架并可能杀死亚伯拉罕·林肯的阴谋的书。

The plan was code named Come Retribution because it was revenge.

该计划的代号为“报应”，因为它是复仇。

I don't think that Bannon is calling for the assassination of Trump's political opponents or anything like that.

我不认为班农呼吁暗杀特朗普的政治对手或类似的事情。

But he is calling for-- and Trump is calling for-- an effort to get even with these people, to make them pay for their transgressions, their transgressions being crossing Donald Trump.

但他正在呼吁——特朗普也在呼吁——努力报复这些人，让他们为自己的违法行为付出代价，他们的违法行为正在冒犯唐纳德·特朗普。

Weeks after that speech, former President Trump held his very first official campaign rally for the new campaign-- kind of a big moment.

在那次演讲几周后，前总统特朗普为新竞选活动举行了他的第一次正式竞选集会——这是一个重要时刻。

It was not in a swing state or any place that he needed to pick up votes.

这不是一个摇摆州，也不是他需要拉选票的任何地方。

The location he chose-- Waco, Texas.

他选择的地点——德克萨斯州韦科。

Now, I've been covering presidential campaigns for a long time.

现在，我已经报道总统竞选活动很长时间了。

And presidential announcements, they often are weighted in symbolism-- Barack Obama in Springfield.

总统的声明往往具有象征意义——巴拉克·奥巴马在斯普林菲尔德。

He decides to have it in Waco, Texas.

他决定在德克萨斯州韦科举办。

Waco, Texas, of course, is the place where the Branch Davidians, David Koresh, had their standoff with federal agents in 1993.

当然，得克萨斯州韦科市是大卫教派大卫·科雷什 (David Koresh) 1993 年与联邦特工发生对峙的地方。

This, of course, ended in disaster.

当然，这以灾难告终。

The place went up in flames.

这个地方着火了。

75 people died.

75人死亡。

It is the symbol for the far-right of a government that is out of control and is a threat to its own citizens.

它是失控的极右政府的象征，对本国公民构成威胁。

So here is the place that Donald Trump goes to have his very first rally.

这里是唐纳德·特朗普第一次举行集会的地方。

When I asked Bannon about it, I was like, come on, Waco?

当我向班农询问此事时，我说，来吧，韦科？

What is going on here?

这是怎么回事？

He said, what do you mean?

他说，你什么意思？

We are the Trump Davidians.

我们是特朗普大卫教徒。

We laughed, but there was clearly a message being sent.

我们笑了，但显然有一条信息正在发送。

The federal government was out of control.

联邦政府失控了。

The deep state was out of control when the Branch Davidians were raided, and the result was a bloodbath.

当大卫教派遭到袭击时，深层政府失去了控制，结果是一场大屠杀。

Once again, they are out of control.

他们再一次失控了。

This time they're going after Donald Trump and his MAGA supporters.

这次他们的目标是唐纳德·特朗普和他的 MAGA 支持者。

And what you saw on stage when the rally started, did it seem appropriate to the setting and to that context?

当集会开始时，你在舞台上看到的情况是否适合当时的环境和背景？

It was so remarkable.

这真是太了不起了。

And a lot of people-- people didn't really note it much because we're early in the presidential campaign cycle, I mean long before people were actually going to be voting.

很多人——人们并没有真正注意到这一点，因为我们正处于总统竞选周期的早期，我的意思是早在人们真正投票之前。

But it started with Donald Trump coming out on stage silently, as the speakers started blaring the national anthem performed by a group called the J6 Choir, the J6 Choir being people who are in a DC prison for alleged crimes related to January 6, allegedly assaulting police officers, breaking into the Capitol building.

但一切开始时，唐纳德·特朗普默默地走上舞台，演讲者开始高唱由 J6 合唱团演奏的国歌，J6 合唱团是因涉嫌与 1 月 6 日袭击警察、闯入国会大厦有关的犯罪行为而被关押在华盛顿特区监狱的人。

And Trump, as this is playing out, is standing on stage, hand over his heart.

当这一切上演时，特朗普正站在舞台上，交出他的心。

And the scenes on the screens behind Trump are the images of the assault on the US Capitol on January 6.

而特朗普身后屏幕上的画面，正是1月6日美国国会大厦遭到袭击的画面。

Again, we're in Waco, Texas.

再说一次，我们在德克萨斯州韦科。

One nation under God.

上帝之下的一个国家。

J6 Choir (SINGING) O say does that star-spangled--

J6 合唱团（歌唱）噢，星条旗永不落——

Donald Trump spoke for an hour and a half, and most of it was the kind of stuff you'd expect-- how Joe Biden's running down the country, how great things were when Trump was president.

唐纳德·特朗普讲了一个半小时，大部分都是你所期待的内容——乔·拜登如何统治这个国家，特朗普担任总统时有多么伟大的事情。

He talked about inflation and China and the fake news media.

他谈到了通货膨胀、中国和假新闻媒体。

But over and over, through the speech, and in his speeches since, he lectured about how the government under Joe Biden is out to get you.

但在这次演讲以及此后的演讲中，他一遍又一遍地讲述乔·拜登领导下的政府如何对付你。

The Biden regime's weaponization of law enforcement against their political opponent is something straight out of the Stalinist Russia horror show.

拜登政权针对其政治对手的执法武器化简直就是斯大林主义俄罗斯恐怖秀的表现。

Let there be no doubt the injustices being done, not only to me but to dozens across our country, will not stand.

毫无疑问，所发生的不公正行为，不仅对我，而且对我们国家的数十个人来说，都是无法忍受的。

And we're not going to stand for it.

我们不会容忍这种行为。

It's the heart of his speech.

这是他演讲的核心。

It's the core of his message.

这是他的信息的核心。

The government is out of control.

政府失控了。

It is out to get you.

它是来抓你的。

I'm the guy standing in the way.

我就是那个挡路的人。

That's why I'm being prosecuted.

这就是我被起诉的原因。

Prosecutorial misconduct is their new tool, and they are willing to use it at levels never seen before.

检察官不当行为是他们的新工具，他们愿意以前所未有的水平使用它。

The impression that people have is that Trump hasn't changed.

人们的印象是特朗普没有改变。

Yeah, he's outrageous.

是的，他太离谱了。

Yeah, he does controversial stuff.

是的，他做了一些有争议的事情。

But that's actually not correct.

但实际上这是不正确的。

Trump has changed at least the message.

特朗普至少改变了信息。

This is a very different campaign.

这是一次非常不同的活动。

This is not the campaign that got him elected to the White House in 2016.

这并不是他在 2016 年当选白宫的竞选活动。

And it's not the campaign that he waged in 2020.

这并不是他在 2020 年发起的竞选活动。

This is different.

这是不同的。

For those who have been wronged and betrayed, of which there are many people out there that have been wronged and betrayed, I am your retribution.

对于那些被冤屈被背叛的人，被冤屈被背叛的人还有很多，我就是你们的报应。

We will take care of it.

我们会处理的。

This is something that Jonathan thinks lots of people might not have noticed until lately, the degree to which Donald Trump's campaign this time around is about getting back at his enemies.

乔纳森认为很多人可能直到最近才注意到这一点，唐纳德·特朗普这次的竞选活动在很大程度上是为了报复他的敌人。

Jonathan tries to capture this in his book about Trump, Tired of Winning, which is actually the inspiration for today's show.

乔纳森试图在他关于特朗普的书《厌倦了胜利》中捕捉到这一点，这实际上是今天节目的灵感来源。

And what exactly might Donald Trump's revenge look like if he got back into office?

如果唐纳德·特朗普重新上任，他的报复到底会是什么样子呢？

Well, in some ways, it's still hard to say.

嗯，在某些方面，这仍然很难说。

Here's the best information out there on this.

这是关于这方面的最佳信息。

Number one on his agenda, for a long time, seemed to be that he was going to go after other Republicans, specifically people who had been his allies and turned against him.

很长一段时间以来，他的首要议程似乎是他要追捕其他共和党人，特别是那些曾经是他的盟友但转而反对他的人。

That's who he seemed to be the most angry about.

看来他最生气的就是这个人。

And we know this because people close to Trump told reporters like Isaac Arnsdorf from The Washington Post that this is who he talked about going after.

我们之所以知道这一点，是因为与特朗普关系密切的人告诉《华盛顿邮报》的艾萨克·阿恩斯多夫等记者，这就是他所说的要追捕的人。

Isaac heard the retribution speech.

艾萨克听到了报应的演讲。

And I didn't really think about it as a synonym for revenge until we were talking to people who had heard Trump say privately, no, actually, there are specific people who we are going to punish for the crime of criticizing Donald Trump.

我并没有真正将其视为复仇的同义词，直到我们与那些听到特朗普私下说的人交谈，不，实际上，我们将因批评唐纳德·特朗普的罪行而惩罚某些特定的人。

People like his former Attorney General Bill Barr, who called Trump's idea that the election was stolen "total nonsense." Or the former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Mark Milley; they had a falling out.

像他的前司法部长比尔·巴尔这样的人称特朗普关于选举被窃取的想法“完全是无稽之谈”。或者前参谋长联席会议主席马克·米利；他们闹翻了。

In public, Trump talks about locking up Republicans like Liz Cheney, the top Republican in the January 6 hearings.

在公开场合，特朗普谈到要关押共和党人，比如 1 月 6 日听证会上的共和党最高领导人利兹·切尼 (Liz Cheney)。

And how could he do this?

而他怎么能这么做呢？

Well, the second thing that we know about Donald Trump's retribution is that he's probably going to use the Department of Justice to go after his enemies if he takes the White House again, and other parts of government as well.

好吧，关于唐纳德·特朗普的报复，我们知道的第二件事是，如果他再次入主白宫，他可能会利用司法部追捕他的敌人，以及政府的其他部门。

He tells people that's what he wants to do.

他告诉人们这就是他想做的事。

And also, people from his first administration have come forward, talked about how he wanted to do that during his first term in office, but he was stopped.

而且，他第一届政府的人也站出来谈论他在第一个任期内如何想这样做，但他被阻止了。

Trump's former Attorney General Jeff Sessions, is quoted in the Mueller report, saying that Trump asked him to authorize an investigation into Hillary Clinton.

穆勒报告援引特朗普前司法部长杰夫·塞申斯的话说，特朗普要求他授权对希拉里·克林顿进行调查。

His former Chief of Staff John Kelly told The New York Times about how, during his first term, Trump asked him to sic the IRS on former FBI director James Comey.

他的前幕僚长约翰·凯利告诉《纽约时报》，特朗普在第一个任期内如何要求他向国税局起诉前联邦调查局局长詹姆斯·科米。

He told The Washington Post that Trump would often suggest using the Department of Justice or the FBI to prosecute his political enemies.

他告诉《华盛顿邮报》，特朗普经常建议利用司法部或联邦调查局来起诉他的政敌。

Again, The Washington Post's Isaac Arnsdorf.

又是《华盛顿邮报》的艾萨克·阿恩斯多夫。

Kelly would just kind of say, yes, sir, and then kind of sit on it until he forgot about it and moved on.

凯利只会说，是的，先生，然后就坐在上面，直到他忘记这件事并继续前进。

This is not a secret that Trump wanted to use power this way when he was president the first time.

特朗普第一次担任总统时就想这样使用权力，这不是什么秘密。

But Jeff Sessions didn't do it.

但杰夫·塞申斯没有这么做。

John Kelly didn't do it.

约翰·凯利没有这么做。

And guess what?

你猜怎么着？

They are not going to be there in a second term.

他们不会在第二个任期内留任。

Trump has told people that his biggest regret from his first term was appointing people who told him no like that.

特朗普告诉人们，他第一个任期内最大的遗憾是任命了那些告诉他不要那样的人。

And he's not going to do it again.

他不会再这样做了。

And the truth is, there's no law to stop any president from using the Department of Justice to go after people this way.

事实是，没有法律可以阻止任何总统利用司法部以这种方式追捕人民。

It's just tradition.

这只是传统。

Which brings me to number three, Democrats.

这让我想到第三个，民主党。

I know; this one's not a surprise.

我知道;这并不奇怪。

I will appoint a real special prosecutor to go after the most corrupt president in the history of the United States of America, Joe Biden--

我将任命一名真正的特别检察官来追捕美利坚合众国历史上最腐败的总统乔·拜登——

[APPLAUSE] --and the entire Biden crime family and all others involved with the destruction of our elections, our borders, and our country itself.

[掌声]——以及整个拜登犯罪家族和所有其他参与破坏我们的选举、我们的边界和我们国家本身的人。

They're destroying our country.

他们正在摧毁我们的国家。

And here's number four-- he'll target low-level government officials who stopped him in the past.

第四，他将针对过去阻止他的低层政府官员。

I will totally obliterate the deep state.

我将彻底消灭深层政府。

We will obliterate the deep state.

我们将消灭深层政府。

And we know who they are.

我们知道他们是谁。

I know exactly who they are.

我清楚地知道他们是谁。

He tried to accomplish that in the last months of his first term by changing the rules with an executive order so that he could fire civil servants who didn't do what he wanted.

他试图在第一个任期的最后几个月实现这一目标，通过一项行政命令改变规则，以便他可以解雇那些不按照他的意愿行事的公务员。

When Joe Biden took office, Biden reversed that policy to what it was.

当乔·拜登上任后，拜登扭转了这一政策。

But it's been reported that Trump loyalists are planning to bring it back.

但有报道称，特朗普的支持者正计划将其恢复。

There's one more thing to keep in mind, as we contemplate what retribution might mean in a second Trump term.

当我们思考特朗普第二任期内的报复可能意味着什么时，还有一件事需要记住。

And that's how Donald Trump and his allies see the powers of the president.

这就是唐纳德·特朗普和他的盟友如何看待总统的权力。

Trump's lawyers have been arguing lately in the Supreme Court, in the Georgia vote fraud case, that the president has enormous latitude to use the arms of government to do whatever he wants, much greater latitude than previous presidents have taken.

特朗普的律师最近在最高法院的佐治亚州选票欺诈案中辩称，总统拥有巨大的自由度，可以利用政府的力量为所欲为，比前任总统拥有更大的自由度。

Trump's lawyers told the Supreme Court that if the president ordered the military to kill a political opponent-- in their view, he could not be prosecuted for that as a crime.

特朗普的律师告诉最高法院，如果总统命令军队杀死政治对手，在他们看来，他不能因此被视为犯罪。

The only people who could do anything about it is Congress, and the only thing they can do is impeach him.

唯一能做点什么的就是国会，他们唯一能做的就是弹劾他。

Over the past year, Donald Trump has gone through periods where he really was not talking about retaliation that much.

在过去的一年里，唐纳德·特朗普经历了一段时期，他实际上并没有过多地谈论报复。

Then a week ago, of course, he was found guilty on 34 felony counts in New York City, and retribution is back in force.

当然，一周前，他在纽约市被判犯有 34 项重罪，报复又重新生效。

Only now, he's been joined by an army of furious right-wing commentators and politicians who are demanding prosecutions of Democrats in retaliation for Trump's court cases.

直到现在，一群愤怒的右翼评论员和政客才加入他的行列，他们要求起诉民主党人，以报复特朗普的法庭案件。

If the Democrats are going to play this game, we've got to play the same.

如果民主党要玩这个游戏，我们也必须玩同样的游戏。

We have to play by their rules.

我们必须遵守他们的规则。

Now, when are we going to start arresting Democrats?

现在，我们什么时候开始逮捕民主党人？

That's what I want to know.

这就是我想知道的。

Republican AGs all over the country should pursue their own indictments.

全国各地的共和党总检察长都应该提出自己的起诉。

Take corrupt Democrats.

以腐败的民主党人为例。

Put them on trial in front of juries that already hate them before the trial even begins.

让他们在审判开始之前就已经讨厌他们的陪审团面前接受审判。

Those were Todd Starnes on the Truth Network and Matt Walsh, who has nearly 3 million subscribers on YouTube.

他们是真相网络 (Truth Network) 的托德·斯塔恩斯 (Todd Starnes) 和 YouTube 上拥有近 300 万订阅者的马特·沃尔什 (Matt Walsh)。

Here's Donald Trump, Jr.

这是小唐纳德·特朗普。

(SUBJECT) DONALD TRUMP, JR: If we don't start fighting fire with fire, they're just going to keep doing it.

（主题）小唐纳德·特朗普：如果我们不以毒攻毒，他们就会继续这样做。

And they'll take their wins, and they'll laugh.

他们会赢得胜利，然后会开怀大笑。

And when we do it back, they'll say, you're threatening democracy.

当我们反击时，他们会说，你在威胁民主。

It's like, wait, you're the ones literally trying to jail your political opposition.

就像，等等，你们才是真正试图监禁你们的政治反对派的人。

So, what we have this year is an unusual candidate who is promising something we have not seen in a presidential candidate before, that once he gets into office, he's going to take retribution on those who have opposed him.

因此，今年我们遇到的是一位不寻常的候选人，他承诺了我们以前在总统候选人中从未见过的事情，即一旦他上任，他将对那些反对他的人进行报复。

And he's telling us that he believes he has broad powers to command the Justice Department and other branches of government to help him do that.

他告诉我们，他相信自己拥有广泛的权力来命令司法部和其他政府部门帮助他做到这一点。

We wanted to take an hour to think about what that might look like and what it might mean for the people who are going to be most affected by it, and that is the people who've crossed him in the past, people on his enemies list.

我们想花一个小时的时间来思考这可能会是什么样子，以及这对于受其影响最大的人来说可能意味着什么，这些人就是过去与他有过冲突的人，他的敌人名单上的人。

How seriously are they taking this?

他们对此有多认真？

After all, Donald Trump says a lot of shit that he never really delivers on.

毕竟，唐纳德·特朗普说了很多他从未真正兑现的废话。

He never fully built that wall with Mexico.

他从未与墨西哥完全建成那堵墙。

Mexico did not pay for any of it.

墨西哥没有支付任何费用。

He never did lock up Hillary Clinton, though he did try.

尽管他尝试过，但他从未真正关押过希拉里·克林顿。

As I speak these words, Trump is leading in three of the six swing states, tied in the other three.

当我说出这些话时，特朗普在六个摇摆州中的三个州领先，其他三个州并列。

Today we visit with a few of the people that Trump hates as they try to puzzle out what Trump might do to them.

今天，我们拜访了一些特朗普讨厌的人，他们试图弄清楚特朗普可能会对他们做什么。

How do you plan for this?

您对此有何计划？

We get a variety of answers.

我们得到了各种各样的答案。

From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.

来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Stay with us.

留在我们身边。

Act One, Republicans Who Crossed Trump.

第一幕，反对特朗普的共和党人。

So we're going to start today with two Republicans who are both pretty worried about what Donald Trump might do to them if he returns to office.

因此，我们今天要从两位共和党人开始，他们都非常担心唐纳德·特朗普如果重返办公室可能会对他们做什么。

One of them was a die-hard Trump loyalist.

其中之一是特朗普的铁杆支持者。

One of them was a die-hard Trump opponent.

其中之一是特朗普的铁杆反对者。

Alix Spiegel visited with them.

阿利克斯·斯皮格尔拜访了他们。

Plainville, Kansas, is a small town, less than 2,000 people, the kind of place that feels very far away from the rest of the world, from its noise and its concerns and its dangers, which I think is part of what attracted Stephanie Grisham to the area.

堪萨斯州的普莱恩维尔是一个小镇，人口不到 2,000 人，是那种感觉远离世界其他地方、远离喧嚣、担忧和危险的地方，我认为这是吸引斯蒂芬妮·格里沙姆来到该地区的部分原因。

See this lady right here?

看到这里这位女士了吗？

Alix Spiegel A 70-ish year old woman in a colorful hat passes in front of Stephanie's car.

阿利克斯·斯皮格尔 (Alix Spiegel) 一位戴着彩色帽子的 70 岁左右的妇女从斯蒂芬妮的车前经过。

I really want to be her friend.

我真的很想成为她的朋友。

She's always dressed to the nines and goes to all the high school football games.

她总是衣着光鲜亮丽，参加所有的高中橄榄球比赛。

And I just love her.

我就是爱她。

Stephanie moved here from DC four years ago.

斯蒂芬妮四年前从华盛顿搬到这里。

Uh-huh.

嗯嗯。

It's been a lot to get used to, but man, I've sure grown to love it.

这需要花很多时间去适应，但是伙计，我确实已经爱上它了。

I really have.

我真的有。

Stephanie's previous scene was the White House.

斯蒂芬妮之前的场景是白宫。

She was one of the Trump staffers who lasted the longest.

她是特朗普任职时间最长的幕僚之一。

She went to a Trump rally two weeks after his descent on the golden escalator and was amazed by how he connected with the crowd.

在特朗普乘坐金色自动扶梯下降两周后，她参加了特朗普的集会，并对他与人群的联系感到惊讶。

She'd never seen anything like it.

她从来没有见过这样的事情。

So she signed up and lasted all the way until the storming of the Capitol on January 6.

于是她就报名了，并一路坚持到1月6日国会大厦被袭为止。

I was interested in talking with Stephanie because when she was with the Trumps, it was actually part of her job to help them take retribution against their enemies.

我有兴趣与斯蒂芬妮交谈，因为当她与特朗普家族在一起时，帮助他们对敌人进行报复实际上是她工作的一部分。

Stephanie played a variety of roles for the Trumps.

斯蒂芬妮在特朗普家族扮演过多种角色。

She was Melania's Chief of Staff for a time, but she also worked at the highest levels of the West Wing.

她曾担任梅拉尼娅的幕僚长，但她也在白宫西翼的最高层工作。

In fact, at one point she was Press Secretary and Director of Communications for the White House and was also responsible for communications for Melania.

事实上，她曾担任白宫新闻秘书和通讯总监，还负责梅拉尼娅的通讯工作。

PS, she was the only White House Press Secretary to never hold a single press briefing.

PS，她是唯一一位从未举行过新闻发布会的白宫新闻秘书。

But Stephanie says even outside of her formal White House jobs, she spent a huge amount of time with the Trumps.

但斯蒂芬妮表示，即使在正式的白宫工作之外，她也花了大量时间与特朗普一家相处。

I would always go with them during all the holidays.

整个假期我都会和他们一起去。

So I was at Mar-a-Lago with them for Christmas, New Year's, all the way to Easter.

所以我和他们一起在海湖庄园度过了圣诞节、新年，一直到复活节。

So I was just always there.

所以我一直都在那里。

Always there-- so literally in the room at so many critical moments.

总是在那里——在很多关键时刻都在房间里。

Like on election night in 2020, it was Stephanie who tiptoed into the First Lady's bedroom around 1:00 to wake her, so Melania would be dressed and ready to go on camera when Trump came out to speak.

就像 2020 年选举之夜一样，斯蒂芬妮在 1:00 左右蹑手蹑脚地走进第一夫人的卧室叫醒她，这样当特朗普出来讲话时，梅拉尼娅就会穿好衣服准备上镜。

As Melania got ready in the bathroom, Stephanie says that she sat with Barron at the end of her bed, watching television news and calling out the results so Melania would know which states had been decided.

当梅拉尼娅在浴室里做好准备时，斯蒂芬妮说她和巴伦坐在床尾，看电视新闻并喊出结果，这样梅拉尼娅就知道哪些州已经决定了。

Really, Stephanie's been through all kinds of things with the Trumps.

确实，斯蒂芬妮和特朗普一家经历了各种各样的事情。

I mean, there was the time he felt that he needed to tell me that Stormy Daniels was wrong about his penis size.

我的意思是，有一次他觉得他需要告诉我斯托米·丹尼尔斯关于他阴茎尺寸的说法是错误的。

So that was a really weird conversation.

所以那是一次非常奇怪的谈话。

And he called me from Air Force One, which made the whole conversation worse because there's a tiny delay between the person on the plane and the person on the ground.

他从空军一号给我打电话，这让整个谈话变得更糟，因为飞机上的人和地面上的人之间有一点延迟。

January 6 was the turning point for Stephanie.

1 月 6 日是斯蒂芬妮的转折点。

She says she was horrified that Trump didn't immediately denounce the breach of the Capitol and attacks on Mike Pence.

她说，令她感到震惊的是，特朗普没有立即谴责闯入国会大厦和袭击迈克·彭斯的事件。

And when she reached out to Melania to ask her to intervene with her husband, Melania said no. For Stephanie, that was the last straw.

当她联系梅拉尼娅请求她干预她的丈夫时，梅拉尼娅拒绝了。对于斯蒂芬妮来说，这是最后一根稻草。

She told me she sent her resignation email about 15 minutes later.

她告诉我，大约 15 分钟后她发送了辞职电子邮件。

But Stephanie didn't stop at resigning.

但斯蒂芬妮并没有停止辞职。

She also agreed to testify for the January 6 Committee, spoke out against Donald Trump on television, and wrote a tell-all book about her experience with the Trumps that became a national bestseller.

她还同意为 1 月 6 日委员会作证，在电视上公开反对唐纳德·特朗普，并写了一本讲述她与特朗普一家的经历的书，该书成为全国畅销书。

From a Trump perspective, Stephanie says she's sinned in almost every possible way she could sin.

从特朗普的角度来看，斯蒂芬妮说她几乎以所有可能犯罪的方式犯了罪。

And she's been clear from the beginning, literally from the moment she pressed send on her resignation email, about what that would mean for her.

从一开始，从她按下辞职电子邮件发送的那一刻起，她就很清楚这对她意味着什么。

Oh, I knew I would be cast out.

哦，我知道我会被赶出去。

I knew I would immediately be a traitor.

我知道我很快就会成为叛徒。

I mean, I helped do it to people.

我的意思是，我帮助人们做到了这一点。

If anybody spoke out against Mrs. Trump or the President, I was the one issuing terrible statements, calling them a liar, saying they were looking for fame.

如果有人公开反对特朗普夫人或总统，我就是那个发表可怕言论的人，称他们是骗子，说他们在追求名誉。

Stephanie says that since she was a Trump true believer, she mostly felt fine about this.

斯蒂芬妮说，由于她是特朗普的忠实信徒，所以她对此感觉很好。

She saw it as an important part of her job to push back.

她认为反击是她工作的重要组成部分。

But still, she says, there were some uncomfortable moments.

但她说，仍然有一些不舒服的时刻。

I called Mitt Romney a "scum," I think.

我认为，我称米特·罗姆尼为“败类”。

And this is a man I had worked for and actually had really respected and was always really kind when I ever passed by him.

这是一个我曾为之工作过的人，实际上我非常尊敬他，当我经过他身边时，他总是非常友善。

And I remember right when the word "scum" came out of my mouth, I, inside, was like, oh, that was way too far, way too far.

我记得当“人渣”这个词从我嘴里出来时，我内心就想，哦，那太远了，太远了。

That was really harsh, and that was pretty gross of me.

这真的很残酷，对我来说也很恶心。

And of course, I get back to the White House, and I got just praise from the President.

当然，当我回到白宫时，我得到了总统的赞扬。

That was great.

那很棒。

You were so tough.

你太坚强了。

You're so tough, you know.

你太坚强了，你知道的。

So then that makes you feel good because now the President is happy with you.

那么这会让你感觉很好，因为现在总统对你很满意。

And that's one of the things about Donald Trump.

这就是唐纳德·特朗普的特点之一。

He doesn't give you a specific direction.

他不会给你一个具体的方向。

He just says, go after him.

他只是说，追他吧。

And he leaves you to do the dirty work.

他让你去做肮脏的工作。

Stephanie says one of the only times Trump gave her very specific directions was after John Kelly stepped down as Chief of Staff and then criticized Trump in the press.

斯蒂芬妮说，特朗普给她的唯一一次非常具体的指示是在约翰·凯利辞去幕僚长职务后，然后在媒体上批评特朗普。

Stephanie says at one point Trump called her to say she needed to make a public statement savaging Kelly, who was a person Stephanie liked and respected.

斯蒂芬妮说，特朗普有一次打电话给她，说她需要发表一份公开声明来严厉批评凯利，而凯利是斯蒂芬妮喜欢和尊重的人。

He said that I needed to call this reporter and say, General Kelly doesn't understand "the genius of our great President." And he said, take it down, take this down.

他说我需要打电话给这位记者说，凯利将军不理解“我们伟大总统的天才”。他说，把它拿下来，把这个拿下来。

So I remember I wrote it down, and I hung up the phone and I sat there.

所以我记得我把它写下来，然后我挂了电话，坐在那里。

And I remember, I called my boyfriend.

我记得，我打电话给我男朋友。

I called one of the deputy chiefs of staff at the time.

我给当时的一位副参谋长打了电话。

And I think I called just, like, my best friend.

我想我只是给我最好的朋友打了电话。

And I knew.

我知道。

I was like, oh, my gosh, he wants me to say this.

我当时想，哦，天哪，他想让我这么说。

This is horrible, right?

这太可怕了，对吧？

And everyone was like, yeah, that's really horrible.

每个人都说，是的，这真的太可怕了。

But I picked up the phone, and I did it.

但我拿起了电话，我做到了。

And it sounded like I worked for Kim Jong-un.

听起来我好像为金正恩工作过。

Like, "the genius of our great President"-- who says that?

就像“我们伟大总统的天才”——这句话是谁说的？

But I did.

但我做到了。

And so he called me later that day, the President, and said, hey, that was great.

那天晚些时候，他打电话给我，总统，说，嘿，那太好了。

I really appreciate what you said.

我真的很欣赏你所说的。

That was really tough.

那真的很艰难。

And I'm thinking, you had me write that down.

我在想，你让我把它写下来。

It was just very, very clear, Stephanie says, that Trump wanted you to be as ruthless as possible with his enemies.

斯蒂芬妮说，非常非常清楚，特朗普希望你对他的敌人尽可能无情。

She says Trump seemed to genuinely admire people who were ruthless.

她说特朗普似乎真的很钦佩那些冷酷无情的人。

I remember one specific time when we were in a bilat with President Erdogan of Turkey.

我记得有一次我们与土耳其总统埃尔多安一起参加比拉特会议。

And we were all sitting around this table.

我们都坐在这张桌子周围。

I was, I think, maybe the only woman in the room, maybe a couple others.

我想，我可能是房间里唯一的女性，也许还有其他几个。

But out of the blue, literally, he just yells down to me, Stephanie, who do you think is the biggest killer, this guy or President Xi of China?

但出乎意料的是，他只是对我大喊，斯蒂芬妮，你认为谁是最大的杀手，这个家伙还是中国的习主席？

He asked me that in a room of 30 to 40 people.

他在一个有 30 到 40 人的房间里问我这个问题。

I'm supposed to decide who's the biggest murderer, as if that's cool.

我应该决定谁是最大的凶手，好像这很酷。

And I remember, I just said, I don't know.

我记得，我刚刚说过，我不知道。

This guy looks pretty tough, sir.

先生，这家伙看起来很坚强。

[LAUGHS AWKWARDLY] You know, you laugh about it.

[尴尬地笑]你知道，你为此笑了。

And I remember afterwards, he came up to me and grabbed my elbow.

我记得后来，他走到我身边，抓住了我的肘部。

And he goes, hey, just so you know, it's President Xi.

他说，嘿，让你知道，这是习主席。

I've seen him do some shit.

我见过他干过一些坏事。

And that was the moment that I was like, he really loves this.

那一刻我就想，他真的很喜欢这个。

He really loves-- he wanted to know who has murdered more of their own people, their own people.

他真的很爱——他想知道谁谋杀了更多自己的人民，他们自己的人民。

Ah!

啊!

Unfortunately for Stephanie, Donald Trump doesn't usually forget his grudges.

对于斯蒂芬妮来说不幸的是，唐纳德·特朗普通常不会忘记他的恩怨。

And maybe worse, it's not just Donald who's angry with her.

也许更糟糕的是，不只是唐纳德对她生气。

The worst part for me is that I'm on her radar.

对我来说最糟糕的是我在她的监视范围内。

So like, a General Kelly is not on Melania Trump's radar.

就像凯利将军不在梅拉尼娅·特朗普的关注范围内一样。

So I've got both of them.

所以我两个都有了。

[LAUGHS] And I know that she is very, very good at revenge as well.

[笑]我知道她也非常非常擅长复仇。

Now, I want to be clear.

现在，我想澄清一下。

Stephanie seems to genuinely care for and, in some ways, even admire Melania Trump.

斯蒂芬妮似乎真正关心梅拉尼娅·特朗普，在某些方面甚至钦佩梅拉尼娅·特朗普。

Since she was Melania's Chief of Staff and Communications Director, they got to know each other pretty well.

由于她是梅拉尼娅的幕僚长兼通讯总监，他们彼此非常了解。

And you can tell when you read Stephanie's book that even now, she has fond feelings for her former boss, misses her even.

当你读斯蒂芬妮的书时你会发现，即使是现在，她仍然对她的前老板怀有好感，甚至想念她。

But she's seen what Melania's capable of.

但她看到了梅拉尼娅的能力。

She says Melania has tried to use the government to go after enemies in the past.

她说，梅拉尼娅过去曾试图利用政府来追捕敌人。

She had a friend who kind of worked for her, Stephanie Winston Wolkoff, who also wrote a book about her while we were in the White House.

她有一个为她工作的朋友斯蒂芬妮·温斯顿·沃尔科夫（Stephanie Winston Wolkoff），当我们在白宫时，她还写了一本关于她的书。

And when Stephanie's book came out, Melania wanted to sue her.

当斯蒂芬妮的书出版时，梅拉尼娅想起诉她。

Because that's what they do.

因为这就是他们所做的。

The Trumps sue people.

特朗普一家起诉人们。

And Melania's reasoning was she wanted to sue Stephanie for violating a non-disclosure agreement that Stephanie had signed-- well, we all signed.

梅拉尼娅的理由是她想起诉斯蒂芬妮违反了斯蒂芬妮签署的保密协议——好吧，我们都签署了。

But those had been deemed that they didn't really matter because we work for the government.

但这些被认为并不重要，因为我们为政府工作。

And Pat Cipollone, our attorney, our White House attorney, kept telling Melania, no, if you want to do this, you need to do it with your personal lawyer.

我们的律师帕特·西波隆（Pat Cipollone），我们的白宫律师，一直告诉梅拉尼娅，不，如果你想这样做，你需要和你的私人律师一起做。

This isn't a government thing.

这不是政府的事。

And Melania was like, nope.

梅拉尼娅说，不。

Nope, I want to sue her.

不行，我要告她。

I want to sue her.

我想起诉她。

And she forced Pat Cipollone to make the Justice Department take it on.

她还强迫帕特·西波隆让司法部介入。

Pat said, two or three times, this should be your personal lawyer.

帕特说，两三遍，这应该是你的私人律师。

This is not a government situation.

这不是政府的情况。

And she finally, one day, said, I don't care.

最终有一天，她说，我不在乎。

Do it.

做吧。

And so they did it.

他们就这么做了。

I reached out to Pat Cipollone and the Justice Department to confirm Stephanie's story.

我联系了帕特·西波隆和司法部，以证实斯蒂芬妮的故事。

Neither would comment.

两人均不愿发表评论。

The Justice Department did file a suit against Stephanie Winston Wolkoff shortly after her book came out.

在斯蒂芬妮·温斯顿·沃尔科夫的书出版后不久，司法部确实对她提起了诉讼。

The Biden administration dropped that suit its first month in office.

拜登政府在上任第一个月就撤销了该诉讼。

But this story points to something that really worries Stephanie about a second Trump term.

但这个故事指出了斯蒂芬妮对特朗普第二任期真正担心的事情。

She believes there will be many fewer Pat Cipollines-- people willing to push back or say no to the Trumps-- because, like Ira mentioned earlier, Trump has told people he's not going to appoint anyone this time around who will tell him no.

她相信帕特·西波林（Pat Cipollines）——愿意反击或对特朗普家族说“不”的人——会少得多，因为就像艾拉之前提到的那样，特朗普已经告诉人们，这次他不会任命任何对他说“不”的人。

And there's something else that Stephanie is worried about in a second Trump term, something I heard from a few people.

我从一些人那里听到了斯蒂芬妮在特朗普第二任期内担心的其他事情。

It's not how he'd use government institutions for personal retribution.

这不是他利用政府机构进行个人报复的方式。

It's another weapon at his disposal.

这是他可以使用的另一件武器。

He and she, they both, can call forth these armies of people-- mostly online, but certainly, we've seen, with January 6 and other situations, that some are in public.

他和她，他们俩，都可以召集这群人——大部分是在网上，但当然，我们已经看到，在 1 月 6 日和其他情况下，有些人是在公共场合。

And you just get besieged with hate and bullying.

而你只会被仇恨和欺凌所包围。

And they know that, and they wield that power like no problem.

他们知道这一点，并且毫无问题地运用这种权力。

And I remember, there were times with Mrs. Trump that I'd say, do you want me to put a statement out about this person who said something bad about you?

我记得，有时我会和特朗普夫人说，你想让我针对这个说你坏话的人发表一份声明吗？

And she'd say, no, no, no. We will let all my fans get them.

她会说，不，不，不。我们会让我所有的粉丝得到它们。

And that meant the people online, all her supporters who would go after this person.

这意味着网上的人，所有她的支持者都会追捕这个人。

And they do.

他们确实这么做了。

Several people I spoke to for this story told me that they feared Trump would encourage a kind of culture of vengefulness in his second term, and that MAGA zealots might feel liberated to do what they want because Trump's government will have their backs.

为这篇报道采访过的几位人士告诉我，他们担心特朗普会在第二个任期内鼓励一种复仇文化，而“让美国再次伟大”的狂热分子可能会感到可以自由地做他们想做的事，因为特朗普政府会支持他们。

After all, he has already promised to pardon the January 6 rioters, which brings me to Fred Wellman and the way that fear of retribution from Trump supporters can infect a life.

毕竟，他已经承诺赦免 1 月 6 日的骚乱者，这让我想到了弗雷德·威尔曼 (Fred Wellman)，以及对特朗普支持者报复的恐惧会影响人们的生活。

Fred lives in a suburb of St. Louis on this residential street with modest houses.

弗雷德住在圣路易斯郊区的这条住宅街上，周围都是简陋的房屋。

And he told me that a couple of months ago, right before bed, he let his dog River out for her bedtime stretch.

他告诉我，几个月前，就在睡觉前，他让他的狗 River 出去做睡前伸展运动。

I open the door.

我打开门。

She jumps down three steps.

她跳下三级台阶。

And sitting right here with those garbage cans are was a pickup truck, sitting there idling, facing my house.

和那些垃圾桶在一起的是一辆皮卡车，空转地坐在那里，面向我的房子。

And I'm like, OK.

我想，好吧。

I watched them for a second.

我看了他们一会儿。

I couldn't see-- tinted windows.

我看不见——有色窗户。

Couldn't see what was going on.

看不清发生了什么。

I'm like, that's strange.

我想，这很奇怪。

You're talking 10 o'clock at night.

你说的是晚上10点。

What got me going was I gave him bug eyes.

让我继续下去的是我给了他一双虫眼。

I looked at him.

我看着他。

I gave the stink eye.

我给了臭眼。

It was like, what are you doing here?

就像，你在这里做什么？

Just looked.

刚刚看了。

And he had to know I saw him.

他必须知道我看到了他。

And I came back in.

然后我就回来了。

They didn't leave, which is really suspicious.

他们并没有离开，这确实很可疑。

And in your mind, what was the first thought you had about who could be sitting in that truck?

在你的脑海中，你对谁可能坐在那辆卡车里的第一个想法是什么？

Trump supporters.

特朗普的支持者。

MAGA, MAGA extremists, if you will.

MAGA，MAGA 极端分子，如果你愿意的话。

I'm on the list.

我在名单上。

I'm on the list.

我在名单上。

Of enemies.

敌人的。

I'm on the MAGA enemies list.

我在 MAGA 敌人名单上。

To be clear, it's not a literal list, but Fred's definitely done enough to get on the wrong side of Trump world.

需要明确的是，这不是一个字面上的清单，但弗雷德的做法绝对足以站在特朗普世界的错误一边。

Fred was executive director of the Lincoln Project.

弗雷德是林肯项目的执行董事。

Maybe you've heard of it-- it's this group of high-profile Republican operatives who set out to use their political know-how to keep Trump out of power in 2020 and immediately attracted attention and money.

也许你听说过——正是这群备受瞩目的共和党特工，着手利用他们的政治技巧让特朗普在 2020 年下台，并立即吸引了关注和金钱。

The group trolled Trump on Twitter daily and spent close to $80 million on a series of viral anti-Trump campaign ads.

该组织每天在 Twitter 上攻击特朗普，并花费近 8000 万美元制作一系列病毒式反特朗普竞选广告。

Trump responded with rage tweets; there were a bunch.

特朗普以愤怒的推文回应；有很多。

And those written attacks from Trump almost immediately translated into actual attacks from Trump supporters.

特朗普的这些书面攻击几乎立即转化为特朗普支持者的实际攻击。

One Lincoln Project founder I talked to said that hundreds of boxes of excrement were mailed to his house.

我采访过的一位林肯计划创始人说，数百箱排泄物被邮寄到他家。

Then, a couple of months ago, Fred discovered that all of his information and the information of his family members had been posted on this doxing site that he didn't want to name but which he showed me during our visit.

然后，几个月前，弗雷德发现他的所有信息和他家人的信息都发布在这个人肉搜索网站上，他不想透露姓名，但在我们访问期间他向我展示了该网站。

I keep it open.

我保持打开状态。

Alix Spiegel I love the picture of the--

阿利克斯·斯皮格尔（Alix Spiegel）我喜欢这张照片——

Yeah, it's great.

是的，太棒了。

Alix Spiegel --the devil.

阿利克斯·斯皮格尔——魔鬼。

It's very subtle.

这是非常微妙的。

There it is, Fred Wellman.

就是这样，弗雷德·威尔曼。

That's my stepson.

那是我的继子。

That's my dad who's dead.

那是我死去的父亲。

That's my ex-wife's ex-husband.

那是我前妻的前夫。

That's my brother.

那是我的兄弟。

That's my mother.

那是我的母亲。

They do have all the emails and socials right.

他们确实拥有所有电子邮件和社交功能。

They have all your email?

他们有你所有的电子邮件吗？

They have all your--

他们拥有你所有的——

Yeah, but that's not me.

是的，但那不是我。

I guess there's a Fred Wellman who's a realtor they keep mistaking for me.

我猜有一个弗雷德·威尔曼（Fred Wellman），他是一名房地产经纪人，他们一直误认为是我。

Oh, no. Alix Spiegel --be like, sorry, guy?

哦，不。阿利克斯·斯皮格尔——抱歉，伙计？

At the top of the page was a box which listed how many people had searched for Fred's name.

页面顶部有一个框，列出了有多少人搜索过弗雷德的名字。

There were 187.

有187个。

And now this truck was sitting near his driveway.

现在这辆卡车停在他的车道附近。

Could it be a Trump supporter?

会不会是特朗普的支持者？

So anyway, I did what I do, which is-- [LAUGHS] you know.

所以无论如何，我做了我该做的事，那就是——[笑]你知道。

Just explain what this is.

简单解释一下这是什么。

Fred Wellman I have a 9 millimeter handgun, a Smith and Wesson 9 millimeter.

Fred Wellman 我有一把 9 毫米手枪，一把史密斯威森 9 毫米手枪。

In the drawer by your bed?

在你床边的抽屉里吗？

Fred Wellman Yeah.

弗雷德·威尔曼 是的。

Yeah, or actually, on the nightstand.

是的，或者实际上，在床头柜上。

Before getting sideways with Trump world, Fred didn't keep guns in his house, much less on his bedside table.

在与特朗普世界擦肩而过之前，弗雷德并没有把枪放在家里，更不用说放在床头柜上了。

It's not that Fred's uncomfortable with guns.

这并不是说弗雷德对枪感到不舒服。

Fred's military.

弗雷德的军队。

He went to West Point, was a protégé of David Petraeus, served in Desert Storm, and had three combat tours in Iraq.

他曾就读于西点军校，是大卫·彼得雷乌斯的门生，曾在“沙漠风暴”中服役，并曾三度前往伊拉克作战。

It's just that after his time in the military, Fred struggled very seriously with PTSD.

只是在入伍后，弗雷德与创伤后应激障碍 (PTSD) 作了非常严重的斗争。

And so to be safe, about seven years ago, he got rid of all of his weapons.

因此，为了安全起见，大约七年前，他扔掉了所有武器。

He told me it was the responsible thing to do for his kids, for his family.

他告诉我，这是对他的孩子、对他的家人负责任的事情。

Easy access to guns kills veterans.

轻易获得枪支会导致退伍军人死亡。

So it was a big deal for me to go ahead and get one.

所以对我来说，继续获得一个是一件大事。

Did you have-- is it OK for me to ask?

我可以问你吗？

Did you at a certain point have real trouble with suicidal ideation?

您在某个时候是否真的有过自杀意念的困扰？

[LAUGHS] Oh, yeah.

[笑]哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

That was a constant companion to me for many years.

多年来，它一直陪伴着我。

Many, many years.

很多很多年了。

But I went into treatment for PTSD back in 2018, as my wife and I separated.

但早在 2018 年，当我和妻子分居时，我就接受了创伤后应激障碍 (PTSD) 治疗。

And I took that, and I'm still in therapy, still treating it.

我接受了它，我仍在接受治疗，仍在治疗它。

I've come a long way.

我已经走了很长一段路。

That's why Fred swore off guns, at least until he was promoted to executive director of the Lincoln Project in 2021.

这就是弗雷德发誓戒枪的原因，至少在他于 2021 年晋升为林肯项目执行董事之前是这样。

MAGA supporters already hated them, but on his first day on the job, something happened that unleashed a whole new level of fury at the group.

MAGA 的支持者已经讨厌他们了，但在他上任的第一天，发生了一些事情，让该组织更加愤怒。

One of the Lincoln Project's founders admitted to sending sexually suggestive messages to young men, which turned MAGA's anger at the group up to 11.

林肯计划的一位创始人承认向年轻男性发送性暗示信息，这使得 MAGA 对这个组织的愤怒达到了 11 点。

The daily barrage was so extreme the professional security consultants hired to do a threat analysis told Fred and his colleagues to avoid going outside.

每天的攻击是如此极端，以至于受雇进行威胁分析的专业安全顾问告诉弗雷德和他的同事避免外出。

Fred felt he had no choice.

弗雷德觉得他别无选择。

He says he drove to a store and purchased the Smith and Wesson, carried it everywhere, even inside his house.

他说他开车去一家商店买了史密斯威森（Smith and Wesson），随身带着它，甚至在他的房子里。

I need to have it in the same room just to make sure, in case somebody kicked the door in or came in the back door, that I'd at least be able to fight back.

我需要把它放在同一个房间里，以确保万一有人踢门或从后门进来，我至少能够反击。

I had a whole plan where I'd fall back.

我有一个完整的计划，我会撤退。

I set up a safe room.

我设置了一个安全室。

I mean, just put my extra ammo in the bathroom upstairs, so if I had to retreat to the bathroom I'd have the extra ammo in the bathroom.

我的意思是，把多余的弹药放在楼上的浴室里，这样如果我不得不撤退到浴室里，我就会在浴室里放多余的弹药。

I mean, it was pretty intense for a while there.

我的意思是，有一段时间那里的气氛非常激烈。

Again, I'm an old soldier.

再说一遍，我是一名老战士。

I'm not going to sit back and let them kill me.

我不会袖手旁观，让他们杀了我。

Being aware of my surroundings, being aware of my operational security is my way of life now.

了解周围环境、了解操作安全是我现在的生活方式。

It has to be.

必须如此。

You don't have any choice.

你别无选择。

Which brings me back to that night in late January and the truck parked in front of Fred's driveway.

这让我回想起一月底的那个晚上，卡车停在弗雷德的车道前。

Fred told me he peeked through the blinds with the gun in his hand waiting, until eventually it drove away.

弗雷德告诉我，他手里拿着枪，透过百叶窗往外看，直到它最终开走了。

At the time, did you question, am I being paranoid?

当时你有没有质疑，我是不是偏执了？

Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

I always do.

我总是这样。

You always do.

你总是这样。

I mean, why wouldn't you?

我的意思是，你为什么不呢？

It's a weird thing to think somebody might want to-- just, it's so ridiculous, the idea.

认为有人可能想要这样做是一件很奇怪的事情——只是，这个想法太荒谬了。

Even somebody who lives this life is wondering, am I just being ridiculous?

即使是过着这种生活的人也会想，我是不是很可笑？

And I always question that.

我总是质疑这一点。

Does it bother you to think that you're paranoid?

认为自己偏执会让你感到困扰吗？

Mm-hmm, yeah, it does.

嗯嗯，是的，确实如此。

But that's their goal, right?

但这就是他们的目标，对吗？

I mean, the goal, I think, for all these guys, is to make us on edge, to wear us out, to make you quit, to say, you know what?

我的意思是，我认为，对于所有这些人来说，目标是让我们紧张，让我们疲惫不堪，让你放弃，说，你知道吗？

This is too much heat.

这热量太大了。

This is too much danger for me.

这对我来说太危险了。

And I have peers who have done that.

我有一些同行已经做到了这一点。

I have peers who have backed out of their-- quieted down or gone to other things.

我的一些同龄人要么安静下来，要么去做其他事情。

The goal is-- and I think about it.

目标是——我想了一下。

Why would I not think about it?

我为什么不考虑一下呢？

So they want us to be scared.

所以他们希望我们感到害怕。

They want us to chicken out.

他们希望我们退缩。

They want us to be broke.

他们希望我们破产。

It's like, you see how I live.

就像，你看我是怎么生活的。

I live humbly.

我生活得很卑微。

Go for it, dude.

加油吧，伙计。

There's nothing more dangerous than a man with zero assets and zero fucks.

没有什么比一个零资产、零操的男人更危险的了。

Yeah, and that's you?

是啊，那是你吗？

Fred Wellman That's me.

弗雷德·威尔曼 那就是我。

Oh, yeah, that's me in a million ways.

哦，是的，这就是我的一百万种方式。

Kids are grown.

孩子们都长大了。

I'm not married, so my wife's not going to get hit with anything.

我还没有结婚，所以我的妻子不会受到任何打击。

I'm on my own.

我只能靠自己了。

Fred and Stephanie both worry that in a second Trump term, he'll install people in the federal government who will come after them-- in the IRS, in the Justice Department.

弗雷德和斯蒂芬妮都担心，在特朗普的第二个任期内，他会在联邦政府中安插一些人来接替他们——国税局和司法部。

Like, for example, they both think their taxes could be audited.

例如，他们都认为他们的税收可以被审计。

Or I don't know if they would have DOJ come after me for treason.

或者我不知道他们是否会让司法部以叛国罪追捕我。

He was big on treason.

他的叛国罪很严重。

What do you mean, he was big on treason?

你说他叛国罪大不大是什么意思？

He would always just, if people spoke out against him-- that's treason, that's treason.

如果人们公开反对他，他总是会说——那就是叛国，那就是叛国。

That's what he felt.

这就是他的感受。

It's not going to be just about Donald Trump or Melania Trump.

这不仅仅是关于唐纳德·特朗普或梅拉尼娅·特朗普。

Some people who will also be placed, without a doubt, into the administration, they, too, will be empowered to go after people they perceive were traitors.

毫无疑问，一些人也将被安排进入政府，他们也将被授权追捕他们认为是叛徒的人。

And so it's going to be a small, little army of people that I think will be just settling all kinds of scores, using the government.

因此，我认为这将是一小群人，他们将利用政府来解决各种问题。

You want to talk about what is it going to look like for people like me.

你想谈谈像我这样的人会是什么样子。

Let's say you say you replace half the IRS with MAGA extremists.

假设您用 MAGA 极端分子取代了一半的国税局。

And they go through people like me's books.

他们会翻阅像我这样的人的书。

You know as well as I do, I probably didn't cross a T or dot an I.

你和我一样清楚，我可能没有划过 T 或点 I。

It's not hard to find a crime when you look for it.

当你寻找犯罪时，并不难发现它。

So what happens with people like me?

那么像我这样的人会怎样呢？

You see where this goes?

你知道这是怎么回事吗？

It's very easy to use the administrative state, the deep state, if you will, in very evil ways.

如果你愿意的话，以非常邪恶的方式利用行政国家、深层国家是非常容易的。

Which is why Fred and his girlfriend have been making plans.

这就是弗雷德和他的女朋友一直在制定计划的原因。

Can you just explain the trip that you're going to be taking this summer?

您能简单介绍一下您今年夏天要进行的旅行吗？

Yeah, we're going to go abroad.

是的，我们要去国外。

I've done the research of what needs to do to establish the first steps in the process to find yourself living somewhere else.

我已经研究了需要做什么才能确定自己在其他地方生活的过程的第一步。

And we're planning on taking some of those steps this summer, just to be safe, establishing bank accounts and travel patterns, making contact with the local passport offices, those sorts of things.

为了安全起见，我们计划今年夏天采取其中一些措施，建立银行账户和旅行模式，与当地护照办公室联系，诸如此类。

There are other ways that Fred has adjusted his life in anticipation of a Trump presidency.

为了迎接特朗普当选总统，弗雷德还通过其他方式调整了自己的生活。

Explain that.

解释一下。

Why?

为什么？

Why are you not married?

你为什么不结婚？

Well, there's no legal entanglement that way.

嗯，这样就没有法律纠葛了。

They can't go after her because she's my partner or my wife.

他们不能追捕她，因为她是我的伴侣或我的妻子。

There is no-- we have not intertwined our finances, for example, just in case.

例如，为了以防万一，我们没有将我们的财务交织在一起。

I do not want my challenges to affect those I love, be it my kids, my partner, even my ex, OK?

我不希望我的挑战影响到我所爱的人，无论是我的孩子、我的伴侣，甚至是我的前任，好吗？

I do not want them entangled in this.

我不想让他们卷入这件事。

As for Stephanie, she doesn't like to talk about what she'll do if Trump gets elected for a second term.

至于斯蒂芬妮，她不喜欢谈论如果特朗普当选连任她会做什么。

The only thing she'd say on the record is that she has also considered leaving the country.

她唯一记录在案的是，她也考虑过离开这个国家。

In fact, Stephanie told me she's in this text group with four women, former Trump administration staffers who have publicly repudiated him.

事实上，斯蒂芬妮告诉我，她在这个短信群里有四名女性，她们是特朗普政府的前工作人员，她们曾公开否认过他。

All of them testified in front of the January 6 Committee.

他们所有人都在 1 月 6 日委员会面前作证。

She says that when Trump's poll numbers look especially good, they comfort each other with these half-funny, half-serious texts.

她说，当特朗普的民调数字看起来特别好时，他们就会用这些半搞笑、半严肃的短信互相安慰。

Our big joke is that we're going to end up in Gitmo.

我们最大的笑话是我们最终会到达关塔那摩监狱。

And I'm always telling people, will you just fill my commissary up?

我总是告诉人们，你能把我的小卖部填满吗？

I love ramen.

我喜欢拉面。

I'll just eat ramen all the time.

我就一直吃拉面。

Do you think that you could end up in jail?

你认为你最终会入狱吗？

Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

I don't know for what, but yeah.

我不知道为什么，但是是的。

I mean, I even worry some days about just disappearing one day.

我的意思是，有时我什至担心有一天会消失。

Like a black ops.

就像黑色行动一样。

One day Stephanie's just gone.

有一天，斯蒂芬妮走了。

Where'd she go?

她去哪儿了？

That's really dramatic.

这真是太戏剧性了。

I doubt that would happen, but it has crossed my mind.

我怀疑这种情况会发生，但我已经想到了。

Because you think they're capable of that?

因为你认为他们有能力做到这一点？

Yeah.

是的。

I mean, yes.

我的意思是，是的。

Alix Spiegel Stephanie and Fred know that these hypotheticals seem really extreme, but they feel like they have no choice but to think about them.

阿利克斯·斯皮格尔·斯蒂芬妮和弗雷德知道这些假设看起来确实很极端，但他们觉得除了思考之外别无选择。

It's messed up that the United States of America in 2024, because you have a political difference with someone who ran for office, you actually have to come up with a plan to possibly leave our country.

2024 年的美利坚合众国是一团糟，因为你和竞选公职的人有政治分歧，你实际上必须想出一个可能离开我们国家的计划。

If Donald Trump wins on November 5, Fred and Stephanie will have roughly two months before the new administration takes power to figure out what to do, two months to make a decision about whether to stay or whether to go.

如果唐纳德·特朗普 (Donald Trump) 于 11 月 5 日获胜，弗雷德和斯蒂芬妮在新政府上台之前将有大约两个月的时间来考虑该做什么，还有两个月的时间来决定是否留下或是否离开。

In the meantime, they wait.

与此同时，他们等待。

Fred told me that a couple of weeks ago he had another visit from an idling truck.

弗雷德告诉我，几周前，一辆闲置的卡车再次来访。

Alix Spiegel is one of the producers of our show.

阿利克斯·斯皮格尔是我们节目的制片人之一。

Coming up, how's the plan for retribution affecting your marriage?

接下来，报复计划对你的婚姻有何影响？

And do Trump voters actually give a damn about Trump's calls for retribution?

特朗普的选民真的在乎特朗普要求报复的呼声吗？

That's in a minute, Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.

芝加哥公共广播电台，一会儿我们的节目就会继续。

It's This American Life.

这就是美国生活。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Today's program, Come Retribution.

今天的节目，《报应来了》。

One of the current presidential candidates is openly promising revenge if he takes office.

现任总统候选人之一公开承诺，如果他上任，将进行报复。

We're looking at what that might mean and talking to some of the people he might take revenge upon.

我们正在研究这可能意味着什么，并与他可能报复的一些人交谈。

We've arrived at Act Two of our program.

我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。

Act Two, The Deep Stater.

第二幕，深层国家者。

So like Fred and Stephanie, this next guy is not trying to pick a fight with Donald Trump.

因此，就像弗雷德和斯蒂芬妮一样，下一个人也不会试图与唐纳德·特朗普发生争执。

He's just trying to do his job.

他只是想做好他的工作。

Mr. Chairman, ranking members, thank you for the opportunity to address the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence.

主席先生，各位高级成员，感谢你们给我机会在众议院常设情报特别委员会发言。

This is former Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman.

这是前亚历山大·温德曼中校。

He's the White House staffer who went to his superiors and officially reported the phone call that President Donald Trump had that led to his first impeachment trial.

他是白宫工作人员，向上级报告了唐纳德·特朗普总统的电话，该电话导致了他的第一次弹劾审判。

You remember this call?

你还记得这个电话吗？

It was with the president of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, back in July 2019.

这是 2019 年 7 月与乌克兰总统弗拉基米尔·泽连斯基 (Volodymyr Zelenskyy) 的会面。

Lieutenant Colonel Vindman wrote the talking points for President Trump that day.

温德曼中校当天为特朗普总统撰写了谈话要点。

Trump was supposed to congratulate Zelenskyy for winning a big election-- normal stuff.

特朗普本应该祝贺泽连斯基赢得一场重大选举——这是正常的事情。

But instead, Trump famously went off message and asked Zelenskyy for a favor.

但相反，特朗普却出言不逊，请求泽连斯基帮忙。

He asked Zelenskyy to investigate Hunter Biden.

他要求泽连斯基调查亨特·拜登。

Vindman and some other officials were listening in.

温德曼和其他一些官员正在倾听。

I was concerned by the call.

接到电话我很担心。

What I heard was inappropriate, and I reported my concerns to Mr. Eisenberg.

我听到的内容是不恰当的，我向艾森伯格先生报告了我的担忧。

It is improper for the President of the United States to demand a foreign government investigate a US citizen and a political opponent.

美国总统要求外国政府调查美国公民和政治对手是不恰当的。

In his testimony, Vindman emphasized that he did not go public with these concerns, but reported them up the chain of command, as his job required, because they had national security implications.

温德曼在证词中强调，他没有公开表达这些担忧，而是根据工作要求向上级指挥系统报告了这些担忧，因为它们对国家安全有影响。

He was not hoping to put the President on a trial.

他不希望对总统进行审判。

There was somebody else, an intelligence official, who blew the whistle and made the phone call public.

还有另外一个人，一位情报官员，揭发了这个电话并公开了此事。

But it was Vindman who became the public face of all this, who testified in public at the impeachment hearings, wearing his medals and his uniform, and was probably the most dramatic testimony of the hearings.

但温德曼成为了这一切的公众形象，他在弹劾听证会上公开作证，穿着他的奖章和制服，这可能是听证会上最引人注目的证词。

And there were consequences to that.

这会带来后果。

Two days after Donald Trump beat the impeachment charges, he fired Vindman from his White House job.

唐纳德·特朗普击败弹劾指控两天后，他解雇了温德曼的白宫工作。

One of Trump's advisors told CNN that this was meant to send a message to anybody who might cross Trump.

特朗普的一位顾问告诉美国有线电视新闻网，这是为了向任何可能反对特朗普的人传递一个信息。

Though he is now out of the White House, Vindman was still a military officer, but apparently too hot a property for the military to give a serious job to.

尽管温德曼现在离开了白宫，但他仍然是一名军官，但显然对于军方来说，这是一个太热门的职位，无法给他们一份严肃的工作。

They offered this combat veteran, a multilingual expert who'd been coordinating all US policy on Ukraine, Russia, and former Soviet states, a job at an army museum that had not even opened yet.

他们为这位退伍军人提供了一份在一家尚未开放的军事博物馆的工作，这位退伍军人是一位多语言专家，一直在协调美国对乌克兰、俄罗斯和前苏联国家的所有政策。

This is about as far from the action as you can get.

这与您所能得到的行动相差甚远。

Vindman decided to leave the military, start a new life.

温德曼决定离开军队，开始新的生活。

He moved with his wife, Rachel, and his daughter to Florida, to a big, pretty house with huge windows.

他与妻子雷切尔和女儿搬到了佛罗里达州一栋漂亮的大房子里，窗户很大。

Well, when you walk into our house, you walk into a very empty space.

好吧，当你走进我们的房子时，你会走进一个非常空旷的空间。

High ceilings-- that's why we have the echoes.

高高的天花板——这就是我们有回声的原因。

Literally has only dog beds in it.

从字面上看，里面只有狗床。

And we tallied 11 dog beds for three dogs across the house.

我们统计了一下房子里有 11 个狗床，可以容纳 3 只狗。

Yeah.

是的。

Ira Glass Yeah, this is a room where there would be living room furniture and curtains and stuff.

Ira Glass 是的，这个房间里有客厅家具、窗帘之类的东西。

Yes.

是的。

We have a plan for all of that, but we are not purchasing the furniture and the curtains, the window treatments, until we have a little bit more clarity on the election in November because I don't know what we're going to do.

我们有一个针对所有这些的计划，但我们不会购买家具、窗帘、窗帘，直到我们对 11 月份的选举有了更多的了解，因为我不知道我们要做什么。

We don't have plans to leave.

我们没有离开的计划。

But if Donald Trump is re-elected--

但如果唐纳德·特朗普再次当选——

That sounds a little-- that, frankly, sounds a little bit alarmist.

这听起来有点——坦率地说，听起来有点危言耸听。

And I understand the idea that we need to save money in general just to make sure that-- contingencies, which is--

我理解这样的想法：我们总体上需要省钱，只是为了确保——意外事件——

Yeah, that's fair, contingencies.

是的，这很公平，偶然性。

Your contingencies are different than my contingencies.

你的意外事件和我的意外事件不同。

I think we have a different calculus for how we calculate the danger.

我认为我们对于如何计算危险有不同的计算方式。

What's interesting talking to the Vindmans is that they do not agree on the danger they're in.

与文德曼一家交谈的有趣之处在于，他们对于自己所面临的危险并不一致。

It really drives home how nobody knows what Donald Trump's retribution is going to look like, who he's going to go after, or what he's going to try to do to them.

这确实让我们明白，没有人知道唐纳德·特朗普的报复会是什么样子，他会追捕谁，或者他会试图对他们做什么。

So you have all these people guessing, like the Vindmans.

所以所有这些人都在猜测，比如温德曼一家。

Rachel's best guess is that they really might need to leave the country.

雷切尔的最佳猜测是他们可能真的需要离开这个国家。

Things might get that bad for them.

事情对他们来说可能会变得那么糟糕。

Alex just doesn't see it.

亚历克斯只是没有看到。

This is the country that gave his family refuge from authoritarianism.

这个国家为他的家人提供了免受独裁统治的庇护。

He arrived here at the age of four, after his dad fled the Soviet Union.

在他的父亲逃离苏联后，他四岁时来到这里。

You just can't imagine leaving the country.

你简直无法想象离开这个国家。

No, not possible.

不，不可能。

I think the fact is that I served a full military career to protect this country, and I'm not going to give it up.

我认为事实是我整个军旅生涯都是为了保护这个国家，我不会放弃。

Well, I would just say that Ali and I, our 13-year-old, have an ulterior motive here.

好吧，我只想说，阿里和我，我们 13 岁的孩子，在这里别有用心。

And this is an ideal space to be able to--

这是一个理想的空间，能够——

Can you please be serious?

你能认真点吗？

Alexander Vindman Yes, to be able to play her VR because there's no impediments, you know--

Alexander Vindman 是的，能够玩她的 VR，因为没有任何障碍，你知道——

When I ask them each, separately, to explain why they see whatever danger they might be in so differently, they each had the same answer-- temperament.

当我分别要求他们每个人解释为什么他们对自己可能面临的危险有如此不同的看法时，他们每个人都有相同的答案——气质。

Alex is exceedingly optimistic.

亚历克斯非常乐观。

It is a little annoying at times.

有时有点烦人。

So I would revert to what my daughter says about us, which is that I'm responsible for fun, and Rachel is responsible for safety.

所以我会回到我女儿对我们的评价，那就是我负责乐趣，雷切尔负责安全。

Hey, wait.

嘿，等等。

Why does it work out that way?

为什么会这样呢？

You're the military officer.

你是军官。

How is she the safety one?

她的安全感怎么样？

Because I'm the fun one.

因为我是那个有趣的人。

I tend to be pretty optimistic and kind of on the happy-go-lucky side.

我倾向于非常乐观，并且有点无忧无虑。

In person, at home, Alex Vindman is more boyish and funnier than the decorated officer you might have seen on TV, if you watched any of his congressional testimony.

就个人而言，在家里，亚历克斯·温德曼比你在电视上看到的功勋军官（如果你看过他在国会的证词）更加孩子气和有趣。

He's the one who will clown around for long stretches with the little nephews and nieces at the pool, doing cannonballs and riling them up.

他是那个会和小侄子侄女们一起在泳池边长时间小丑表演、发射炮弹并激怒他们的人。

He's the one who thinks things will work out.

他是那个认为事情会成功的人。

She's the one who takes a grimmer view of their prospects.

她是那个对他们的前景持更悲观看法的人。

And that's how it's been from the beginning of the troubles with Donald Trump, going all the way back to the very first conversation about the Zelenskyy phone call and what it might mean for their family.

这就是从唐纳德·特朗普遇到麻烦开始的情况，一直到关于泽伦斯基电话以及这对他们的家人可能意味着什么的第一次谈话。

That first conversation, they both say, happened when the news broke about that phone call.

他们都说，第一次谈话是在那个电话的消息传出时发生的。

Rachel heard a story about the Trump-Zelenskyy call on NPR.

雷切尔在 NPR 上听到了有关特朗普与泽伦斯基通话的故事。

And then that night, Alex brought it up with her, this thing in the news that obviously was something very close to his own job.

然后那天晚上，亚历克斯向她提起了这件事，新闻中的这件事显然与他自己的工作非常接近。

And we were laying in bed, and he said, can you please call and check on professional liability insurance tomorrow?

我们躺在床上，他说，你明天可以打电话检查一下职业责任保险吗？

And he rolled over and went to sleep.

他翻了个身，睡着了。

And I was awake all night long.

而我整晚都醒着。

He wanted her to check on buying professional liability insurance to cover legal fees.

他希望她检查是否购买职业责任保险来支付律师费。

The Vindmans were a couple who had to figure out how to deal with other hard stuff before this-- tough overseas postings, including three years in Moscow.

温德曼夫妇是一对夫妇，在此之前他们必须弄清楚如何处理其他困难的事情——艰苦的海外工作，包括在莫斯科的三年。

They lost their first child, who was born four months early and died a week later.

他们失去了第一个孩子，孩子早产四个月，一周后去世。

But this was something without any normal rulebook, testifying against a sitting president.

但这是没有任何正常规则手册的事情，是对现任总统的证词。

And the way they dealt with the blowback seems to be they got very practical, tried to assess the risks and their options as clearly as they could.

他们处理反弹的方式似乎非常务实，试图尽可能清楚地评估风险和他们的选择。

After Alex testified, he got called a traitor, a double agent who was working for Ukraine.

亚历克斯作证后，他被称为叛徒，是为乌克兰工作的双重间谍。

They got doxxed, threatened, menacing letters were sent to their house, anti-Semitic slurs.

他们遭到人肉搜索、威胁、恐吓信寄到他们家，还有反犹太诽谤。

It was frightening.

太可怕了。

But they were pragmatic about it-- got the Army to do a threat assessment, made arrangements to move to a military base if things got too severe.

但他们对此很务实——让陆军进行威胁评估，并安排在情况变得过于严重时转移到军事基地。

And this past year, they kept that risk assessment going, keeping an eye on the things that Donald Trump's been saying about retribution.

在过去的一年里，他们继续进行风险评估，密切关注唐纳德·特朗普关于报复的言论。

When he's talking a lot about putting his enemies in jail, they did feel like, oh, that's us.

当他大肆谈论将敌人关进监狱时，他们确实觉得，哦，那就是我们。

And Alex's hackles raise any time Trump talks about the impeachment hoax or the phone call that he had with Zelenskyy back in July 2019.

每当特朗普谈到弹劾骗局或他 2019 年 7 月与泽伦斯基的电话时，亚历克斯都会感到愤怒。

I mean, there was something I guess commented on just within the past week, where he claimed that it was a perfect phone call.

我的意思是，我猜就在过去的一周内，他发表了一些评论，他声称这是一次完美的电话。

Actually, I could pull it up here.

其实我可以把它拉到这里。

Give me a second.

等一下。

OK, this was two days ago.

好吧，这是两天前的事了。

So this is at his rally just two days ago in Dayton, Ohio, where he was talking about the fact that there was a video or audio tape of the phone call, July 25 phone call.

就在两天前，他在俄亥俄州代顿举行的集会上谈到了这样一个事实：有一个关于 7 月 25 日电话的视频或录音带。

Shifty Adam Schiff.

狡猾的亚当·希夫。

This is one of the most dishonest human beings.

这是最不诚实的人之一。

He's talking about the Democrat who ran the impeachment hearings, Adam Schiff.

他说的是主持弹劾听证会的民主党人亚当·希夫。

He made up my conversation that I had with the president of Ukraine.

他编造了我与乌克兰总统的谈话内容。

He made up the conversation.

他编造了谈话。

But here's what they didn't know.

但这是他们不知道的。

The phone call-- because it was a White House call, and for some reason, it happened to be on tape.

那通电话——因为这是白宫的电话，而且出于某种原因，它碰巧被录音了。

So I let them go more and more.

所以我越来越让他们走。

The stories got wilder and wilder.

故事变得越来越疯狂。

Then we released the tape.

然后我们释放了磁带。

They died.

他们死了。

They didn't know that phone call was taped.

他们不知道电话被录音了。

And they got caught.

他们被抓住了。

Just in case there's any ambiguity in your mind right now, none of this is true.

以防万一你现在心里有任何歧义，这些都不是真的。

It's complete fantasy.

这完全是幻想。

There is no tape of the Zelenskyy phone call.

没有泽连斯基的电话录音。

The transcript we have comes from staff notes made during the call.

我们得到的文字记录来自工作人员在通话期间所做的笔记。

So Trump did not release any tape of any sort and catch Schiff or anybody else in any lies.

因此，特朗普没有发布任何类型的录音带，也没有抓住希夫或其他任何人的谎言。

He talks about these things all the time, in multiple venues.

他一直在多个场合谈论这些事情。

This was literally two days ago.

这实际上是两天前的事。

And so that tells you, you're still on his mind.

所以这告诉你，你仍然在他的脑海里。

Alex and I talked about it.

亚历克斯和我谈过这件事。

It was very chilling, I think, that he brought up the phone call.

我认为他打来电话真是令人不寒而栗。

Because you'd like to think he moved on to other people that he hates-- Liz Cheney.

因为你会认为他转向了他讨厌的其他人——利兹·切尼。

I don't know-- I mean, any number of people.

我不知道——我的意思是，有多少人。

And he does talk about them, but that's still there.

他确实谈论过它们，但那仍然存在。

And I think he would absolutely seek retribution.

我认为他绝对会寻求报复。

So you'd like to think that we could fly under the radar for a little bit if things got bad, but I'm not so sure.

所以你可能会认为，如果事情变得糟糕，我们可以在雷达下飞行一段时间，但我不太确定。

If things did get bad, what did the Vindmans think retribution for them might look like from Donald Trump or the people around him?

如果事情确实变得糟糕，温德曼夫妇认为唐纳德·特朗普或他周围的人可能会对他们进行怎样的报复？

I asked them to rank from most likely to least likely.

我要求他们从最有可能到最不可能进行排名。

At the top of the list was some of the stuff other people told us.

列表顶部是其他人告诉我们的一些内容。

They'd try to take Alex's pension or entitlements, or maybe the president would direct the Department of Justice or the FBI to investigate Alex, and he'd have to hire a lawyer, which is a huge hassle, even if no conviction came from it.

他们会试图剥夺亚历克斯的养老金或权利，或者总统可能会指示司法部或联邦调查局调查亚历克斯，而他必须聘请律师，这是一个巨大的麻烦，即使没有定罪。

When I asked them about their most far-fetched fears, Rachel said she was hesitant to mention this next one because it's so out there.

当我问他们最牵强的恐惧时，雷切尔说她很犹豫是否要提及下一个，因为它太遥远了。

But she worries that Alex would be tried for treason, and the penalty could be death.

但她担心亚历克斯会因叛国罪受审，刑罚可能是死刑。

Yeah, I don't want to seem like a nut, but if you just google or just do a search on Twitter or something-- what they want most of all is Alex to be arrested and tried for treason.

是的，我不想看起来像个疯子，但如果你只是用谷歌或 Twitter 之类的东西搜索一下——他们最希望的是亚历克斯被捕并因叛国罪受审。

They truly think that he went against his commander in chief, and that is an act of treason.

他们确实认为他违背了他的总司令，这是叛国行为。

Right, the MAGAs.

对，MAGA。

Ira Glass His most far-fetched fear?

艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）他最牵强的恐惧是什么？

Again, neither of them think these things are likely.

同样，他们两人都不认为这些事情是可能发生的。

I think about the fact that I'm an immigrant, and is there any chance that I could lose my citizenship as a naturalized citizen?

我想一想，我是一名移民，作为入籍公民，我是否有可能失去公民身份？

And then I, frankly, don't have a country, frankly, because the Soviet Union doesn't exist.

然后坦率地说，我没有国家，因为苏联不存在。

The Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic doesn't exist.

乌克兰苏维埃社会主义共和国并不存在。

So that idea has probably crossed my mind once or twice, that that would be a tougher thing to bear than even some of the prosecutions or something of that nature, that I would lose the fact that I'm an American.

所以这个想法可能在我的脑海中闪过一两次，这将是比一些起诉或类似性质的事情更难以忍受的事情，我会失去我是美国人的事实。

I don't want to read too much into this, but her worst fear is that he'd die, and his worst fear is not that he'd die, but that he would lose his country.

我不想过多地解读这一点，但她最担心的是他会死，而他最担心的不是他会死，而是他会失去他的国家。

Back in the impeachment hearings, Vindman ended his prepared testimony by talking about his father, who he looks up to and who he's turned to for advice his whole life.

回到弹劾听证会上，温德曼在准备好的证词结束时谈到了他的父亲，他尊敬他，并且一生都向他寻求建议。

His dad was a civil engineer, who had risen through the ranks and prospered in the old Soviet Union, couldn't stand the wrongdoing that he saw built into the system, and fled to start again at the bottom in America, at the age of 47.

他的父亲是一名土木工程师，曾在前苏联晋升并致富，但他无法忍受体制中存在的不当行为，于是逃到美国，在 47 岁时从底层开始重新开始。

Not long before Alex testified in Congress, they were driving to a family wedding in Rhode Island, and Alex let his dad know that he might be pulled into the upcoming impeachment hearings

亚历克斯在国会作证前不久，他们正开车去罗德岛参加一个家庭婚礼，亚历克斯让他的父亲知道他可能会被拉入即将举行的弹劾听证会

And that there was no way for me to avoid being drawn into this.

我无法避免被卷入其中。

And his counsel was, don't mess around with these people.

他的建议是，不要和这些人打交道。

They could wreck everything for you, derail your career and all that kind of stuff.

他们可能会毁掉你的一切，让你的职业生涯脱轨等等。

I was in the car.

我当时在车里。

I was in the very back, and there was a lot of Russian.

我坐在最后面，那里有很多俄语。

I understand Russian, but I don't speak it.

我懂俄语，但不会说。

But I could see them in the front.

但我可以看到他们在前面。

I mean, Alex's dad was yelling, and he was very upset.

我的意思是，亚历克斯的爸爸在大喊大叫，他非常沮丧。

And his dad was saying?

他爸爸说？

Rachel Vindman Don't testify.

雷切尔·温德曼 不要作证。

Don't testify against the most powerful man in the world.

不要作证反对世界上最有权势的人。

Don't do it.

不要这样做。

There's nothing to be gained for it.

对此没有任何收获。

Don't do it.

不要这样做。

And he was actually more concerned about, like-- the Soviet context would be imprisoned, murdered, or things of that nature.

他实际上更担心，比如——在苏联环境下会被监禁、谋杀或类似的事情。

So he thought you could be imprisoned and murdered?

所以他认为你可能会被监禁并被谋杀？

Well, I mean, we had lived in the US for 40 years, so he knows the US is different than the Soviet Union.

嗯，我的意思是，我们在美国生活了 40 年，所以他知道美国与苏联不同。

But when you cross power, that kind of unchecked power with that kind of personality, that the consequences would be severe.

但当你与权力、那种不受约束的权力和那种性格发生冲突时，后果就会很严重。

At his testimony, Vindman nodded to that disagreement with his dad, talked about how in many countries, including Russia, raising concerns about the president's phone call, even privately in the chain of command, would have severe repercussions.

在作证时，温德曼承认了与父亲的分歧，并谈到在包括俄罗斯在内的许多国家，对总统的电话提出担忧，即使是私下在指挥系统中，也会产生严重的影响。

And offering public testimony involving the president would surely cost me my life.

提供涉及总统的公开证词肯定会让我丧命。

Dad, I'm sitting here today in the US Capitol, talking to our elected professionals, is proof that you made the right decision 40 years ago to leave the Soviet Union and come here to the United States of America in search of a better life for our family.

爸爸，我今天坐在美国国会大厦，与我们当选的专业人士交谈，这证明您在 40 年前做出了正确的决定，离开苏联来到美利坚合众国，为我们的家人寻找更好的生活。

Do not worry.

不用担心。

I will be fine for telling the truth.

我会很好地说出真相。

Alex says that at the time that really seemed true to him, that he could testify without serious repercussions.

亚历克斯说，当时他觉得这确实是真的，他可以作证而不会造成严重后果。

But today?

但今天呢？

I'd say if we go into 2024 with Trump being reelected, I wouldn't have that kind of confidence going forward.

我想说，如果我们进入 2024 年特朗普连任，我就不会再有这样的信心了。

I still have a lot of faith in this country, but if we do elect Trump a second time around, I'm not sure if right would still matter.

我对这个国家仍然充满信心，但如果我们再次选举特朗普，我不确定正义是否仍然重要。

Act Three, Four More Years.

第三幕，还有四年。

OK, so we've heard from a bunch of people who are dreading a second Trump term.

好的，我们听到了一群人担心特朗普连任。

What about the people who are excited about Trump winning, who've been gearing up for it?

那些对特朗普获胜感到兴奋、一直在为之做好准备的人呢？

We wondered, is Donald Trump's desire for revenge something they share?

我们想知道，唐纳德·特朗普的复仇欲望是他们所共有的吗？

Is this part of his pitch something they actually care about?

他们真正关心的是他的这部分内容吗？

Zoe Chace talked to a bunch of Trump voters before and after the guilty verdicts in his court case a week ago.

一周前，佐伊·查斯(Zoe Chace)在法庭案件被判有罪之前和之后与一群特朗普选民进行了交谈。

The first group of voters I talked to, they were at a Trump rally in Wildwood, New Jersey, literally on the boardwalk with arcade games.

我采访的第一批选民是在新泽西州怀尔德伍德举行的特朗普集会上，实际上是在木板路上玩街机游戏。

And today, a Justice for January 6 Prisoners tribute band.

今天，一支为 1 月 6 日囚犯伸张正义的致敬乐队。

[BAND PLAYING "WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT"]

[乐队演奏“我们不会接受它”]

The line to get into the rally was on the beach, in the sand.

参加集会的队伍排在沙滩上。

The mood was upbeat.

气氛很乐观。

The music was classic.

音乐很经典。

The vibe was relaxed and sunny, lots of families.

气氛轻松而阳光明媚，有很多家庭。

I started talking to people, asking everyone, what are the top things you want from Trump if he's back in office, curious if they'd say revenge.

我开始和人们交谈，问每个人，如果特朗普重新上任，你最希望从他那里得到什么，好奇他们是否会说报复。

Inflation to go down, lower inflation, gas prices, migrants, the borders closed.

通货膨胀下降，通货膨胀、汽油价格、移民、边境关闭。

100% economy.

100%经济。

I drive a pickup truck, and shit's getting expensive for me.

我开一辆皮卡车，对我来说，东西越来越贵了。

Lower rent, mortgage, that kind of thing.

降低租金、抵押贷款等等。

I have a 28-year-old that's trying to buy a home, and we told them not even to bother to move out right now.

我有一个 28 岁的孩子想要买房，我们告诉他们现在甚至不用搬出去。

Just to bring things back to a normalcy, to bring fuel prices back.

只是为了让事情恢复正常，让燃油价格恢复。

Just try to take it back to the way it was four years ago.

试着让它回到四年前的样子。

Notice what never came up-- retribution.

注意从未出现过的事情——报应。

This is very obviously not a scientific sample, but still, out of about two dozen people, none of them mentioned it.

这显然不是一个科学样本，但在大约两打人中，仍然没有人提到这一点。

I even brought up specific people who crossed Trump, like testified against him in the New York trial.

我什至提到了那些与特朗普有过冲突的人，比如在纽约审判中作证反对他的人。

And people were like, eh, I don't know.

人们的反应是，呃，我不知道。

You think that Trump, do you think he's going to go after Stormy Daniels or Michael Cohen, like punish them?

你认为特朗普会追捕斯托米·丹尼尔斯或迈克尔·科恩，惩罚他们吗？

He gives two craps.

他给出了两个废话。

Zoe Chace Really?

佐伊·切斯 真的吗？

Even though he--

尽管他——

Right.

对。

Woman 1 But no, I think he has more important things to do.

女人1 但是不，我认为他还有更重要的事情要做。

Exactly.

确切地。

Exactly.

确切地。

I think he's going to put it behind him, yes.

我想他会把它抛在脑后，是的。

Do you think he's going to go after Biden?

你认为他会追捕拜登吗？

No, he's not.

不，他不是。

Biden is an old man.

拜登是个老人了。

He's not going to live that much longer.

他不会活那么久了。

I don't see retribution or revenge.

我看不到报应或报复。

He is for the people.

他是为了人民。

He is for helping the people.

他是为了帮助人民。

That's what we need.

这就是我们所需要的。

When Trump started this campaign, something that he said was, I am your warrior.

当特朗普开始竞选时，他说的是，我是你的战士。

I am your justice.

我是你的正义。

I am--

我是——

Retribution.

报应。

Retribution, right, was the word I think he used.

我认为他用的是“报应”这个词。

Yeah.

是的。

What do you think if he does end up using the DOJ to go after his political enemies--

如果他最终利用司法部追捕他的政敌，你怎么看？

That's what they're doing.

这就是他们正在做的事情。

So now he knows how to do it.

所以现在他知道该怎么做了。

But he won't do that.

但他不会那样做。

To everybody here, retribution isn't some hypothetical future thing to be afraid of.

对于这里的每个人来说，报应并不是某种假设的未来值得害怕的事情。

It's already here.

它已经在这里了。

It's happening now, under Biden.

现在，在拜登的领导下，这种情况正在发生。

And Biden is the one using his Justice Department to persecute his political opponent.

而拜登就是利用司法部迫害政治对手的人。

Six special prosecutors on him, sent the FBI to raid his house.

六名特别检察官针对他，派联邦调查局突击搜查他的家。

There's no evidence any of that's true.

没有证据表明这些都是真的。

These are all independent investigations, but people believe it.

这些都是独立调查，但人们却相信。

So they have weaponized the DOJ.

所以他们已经将司法部武器化。

Look at Mar-a-Lago, the raid.

看看海湖庄园的突袭。

You're like, the Justice Department is totally politicized.

你会说，司法部完全政治化了。

They got to go.

他们得走了。

They're using their power and authority.

他们正在利用自己的权力和权威。

They're abusing their power and authority in order to silence this person because for whatever reason, they have so much hatred towards Donald Trump.

他们滥用权力和权威来让这个人闭嘴，因为无论出于何种原因，他们对唐纳德·特朗普怀有如此大的仇恨。

And it's like, you hate him that much?

就像，你那么恨他吗？

Would you be comfortable with a president going after his political enemies, like using the DOJ and the--

你是否愿意接受一位总统追捕他的政敌，比如利用司法部和——

No, no. That's not what it's designed for.

不，不。这不是它的设计目的。

No. I wouldn't--

不，我不会——

I think that's what's happening to him.

我想这就是发生在他身上的事情。

I don't think that's right.

我认为这是不对的。

This brings me to something I want to draw your attention to, something very different from most of what you've heard this hour.

这让我想提请你们注意一些事情，一些与你们这一小时听到的大多数内容非常不同的事情。

A significant number of people in my unscientific sample told me they don't want Trump or anyone else to use the powers of the federal government to take down their political opponents.

在我的不科学样本中，有相当多的人告诉我，他们不希望特朗普或其他任何人利用联邦政府的权力打倒他们的政治对手。

They want things the way they used to be.

他们想要事情像以前一样。

They want things back to normal.

他们希望一切恢复正常。

Is there something that Trump could do with respect to going after his political enemies that would make you uncomfortable?

特朗普在追捕他的政敌方面是否会做一些让你感到不舒服的事情？

If he did a witch hunt like we're going through right now.

如果他像我们现在正在经历的那样进行政治迫害。

Yeah, nope.

是的，不。

Zoe Chace And what do you want Trump's Justice Department to look like?

佐伊·查斯（Zoe Chace）：您希望特朗普的司法部是什么样子？

Well, you know what?

嗯，你知道吗？

I don't know, but maybe it should be nonpartisan.

我不知道，但也许应该是无党派的。

It sounds like you don't want the Justice Department to be used by a president to go after their political enemies.

听起来你不希望总统利用司法部来追捕他们的政敌。

And you kind of feel like that's what's happening now.

你感觉这就是现在正在发生的事情。

They did.

他们做到了。

Supporters Free Trump!

支持者释放特朗普！

Free Trump!

释放特朗普！

Free Trump!

释放特朗普！

Free Trump!

释放特朗普！

Free Trump!

释放特朗普！

You know what looked extra bad to Trump supporters?

你知道对特朗普支持者来说什么看起来特别糟糕吗？

Trump getting convicted of 34 felonies in the middle of Manhattan by a bunch of people who probably didn't vote for him.

特朗普在曼哈顿市中心被一群可能不投票给他的人判处 34 项重罪。

I ran over to Trump Tower the day after the verdict, where supporters were gathering to hear Trump speak, wondering if I was going to hear anything different at this fever pitch moment.

判决后的第二天，我跑到特朗普大厦，支持者聚集在那里听特朗普讲话，想知道在这个狂热的时刻我是否会听到任何不同的声音。

I was mushed up against the glass of the Prada store with a bunch of people, asking, what about now, post-verdict?

我和一群人挤在普拉达商店的玻璃前，问，判决后现在怎么办？

Should Trump use the government to punish his enemies at this point?

特朗普此时应该利用政府来惩罚他的敌人吗？

Do you feel excited about the idea of revenge or retribution?

你对复仇或报复的想法感到兴奋吗？

See, when he's saying that, it's not like revenge that I'm going to go out and kill people or beat people, put them in jail.

看，当他这么说时，我出去杀人或殴打人，把他们关进监狱，这不像是复仇。

It's to stop the deep state and stop corruption.

这是为了阻止深层政府并阻止腐败。

In a way, you think of it as making things fairer?

在某种程度上，你认为这让事情变得更加公平？

Yes.

是的。

Zoe Chace Not like an eye for an eye.

Zoe Chace 不像以眼还眼。

OK, so what would you think, though, if Trump did use the levers of the federal government to go after his political opposition?

好吧，那么，如果特朗普确实利用联邦政府的杠杆来追捕他的政治反对派，你会怎么想？

He won't.

他不会。

He won't.

他不会。

Zoe Chace Even though he has said he would?

佐伊·切斯 尽管他已经说过他会这么做？

OK.

好的。

That guy was from the Bronx, but another guy I met had flown in from Indiana to support Trump during the trial.

那个人来自布朗克斯，但我遇到的另一个人是从印第安纳州飞来的，在审判期间支持特朗普。

That's passion.

这就是激情。

Would you be comfortable with Trump using the levers of the federal government against his political enemies?

您对特朗普利用联邦政府的手段对付他的政敌感到满意吗？

Like, he's talked about going after the Biden crime family, or he's talked about going after the radical AGs, radical prosecutors.

比如，他谈到要追捕拜登犯罪家族，或者他谈到要追捕激进的检察官、激进的检察官。

Would you be comfortable with that coming from him?

你对他说的话感到满意吗？

No, my preference would be that as soon as Donald Trump is inaugurated as the 47th president that he pardons himself and he pardons Joe Biden.

不，我的偏好是，一旦唐纳德·特朗普就任第 47 任总统，他就会赦免自己并赦免乔·拜登。

Well, Joe Biden's not on trial right now.

嗯，乔·拜登现在没有受审。

No, he's not on trial now.

不，他现在没有受审。

But I would like him to issue a pardon for the crimes that he has done, rather than prosecuting him, so that no one could prosecute him.

但我希望他能够赦免他所犯下的罪行，而不是起诉他，这样就没有人可以起诉他了。

I see.

我懂了。

If Trump becomes president, you just want to move on.

如果特朗普成为总统，你只想继续前进。

Yes.

是的。

Zoe Chace Retribution doesn't seem to be motivating these Trump voters as much as it's motivating Trump himself.

佐伊·查斯的报应似乎并没有像激励特朗普本人那样激励这些特朗普选民。

But if it's not turning them away-- it sure doesn't seem to be-- then he has a good chance of getting into the White House.

但如果这没有让他们望而却步——看起来确实如此——那么他就有很大机会入主白宫。

If he gets there, it won't really matter what was driving the voters.

如果他到达那里，那么选民的驱动因素就不再重要了。

He'll be able to do whatever he wants.

他将能够做任何他想做的事。

Credits Ira Glass Today's program was produced by Alix Spiegel and edited by Alix and me and Laura Starcheski and Bethel Habte.

图片来源：Ira Glass Today 的节目由 Alix Spiegel 制作，由 Alix 和我、Laura Starcheski 和 Bethel Habte 编辑。

The people who put together today's episode include Chris Benderev, Phia Bennin, Sean Cole, Michael Comite, Aviva DeKorenfeld, Seth Lind, Katherine Rae Mondo, Nadia Reiman, Safiyah Riddle, Ryan Rumery, Alissa Shipp, Lilly Sullivan, Christopher Swetala, Marisa Robertson-Textor, Matt Tierney, and Diane Wu.

今天这一集的制作人员包括 Chris Benderev、Phia Bennin、Sean Cole、Michael Comite、Aviva DeKorenfeld、Seth Lind、Katherine Rae Mondo、Nadia Reiman、Safiyah Riddle、Ryan Rumery、Alissa Shipp、Lilly Sullivan、Christopher Swetala、Marisa Robertson-Textor、Matt Tierney 和 Diane Wu。

Our Managing Editor is Sarah Abdurrahman.

我们的总编辑是萨拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sarah Abdurrahman)。

Our Senior Editor is David Kestenbaum.

我们的高级编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。

Our Executive Editor is Emanuele Berry.

我们的执行编辑是埃马努埃莱·贝里。

Special thanks today to Mark Zaid, Eugene and Cindy Vindman, Jennifer Jacobsen, Jennifer Weaver, James Sherk, Ellen Wittman, Stephen Bradbury, Kelefa Sanneh, Ryan Gidursky, and Sarah Isghur.

今天特别感谢 Mark Zaid、Eugene 和 Cindy Vindman、Jennifer Jacobsen、Jennifer Weaver、James Sherk、Ellen Wittman、Stephen Bradbury、Kelefa Sanneh、Ryan Gidursky 和 ​​Sarah Isghur。

Washington Post reporter Isaac Arnsdorf, who you heard at the top of the show, wrote a great book about Trump's followers called Finish What We Started.

《华盛顿邮报》记者艾萨克·阿恩斯多夫（Isaac Arnsdorf），你在节目开头听到的，写了一本关于特朗普追随者的好书，名为《完成我们开始的事情》（Finish What We Started）。

Our website, thisamericanlife.org.

我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。

If you are needing something to listen to, you don't know what to do while you're doing a thing, you can stream our archive of over 800 episodes for absolutely free, thisamericanlife.org.

如果您需要听一些东西，并且在做某事时不知道该做什么，您可以完全免费地观看我们的 800 多集档案，thisamericanlife.org。

This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.

《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。

Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.

一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。

He is constantly asking me this about the host of The Daily, Michael Barbaro.

他经常向我询问《每日报》主持人迈克尔·巴巴罗的情况。

Who do you think is the biggest killer-- this guy or President Xi of China?

你认为谁是最大的杀手——这个人还是中国的习主席？

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Back next week with more stories of This American Life.

下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。

[CLOSING SONG] This American Life This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.

[片尾曲] This American Life This American Life 与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。