831: Lists!!! - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #831 | August 15, 2025 831: Lists!!!
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 831 集 | 2025 年 8 月 15 日 831：列表！！！
Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass The People's Almanac came out in the mid 1970s-- it's hard to imagine a more eccentric bestseller.
序言：序言 Ira Glass 《人民年鉴》出版于 20 世纪 70 年代中期——很难想象还有比这更古怪的畅销书了。
Over 1,400 pages long, it read like an encyclopedia written by an excited and precocious 15-year-old who loved all the obscure details of all the knowledge in all the world.
这本书长达 1,400 多页，读起来就像一本百科全书，作者是一位兴奋而早熟的 15 岁孩子，他热爱世界上所有知识的所有晦涩细节。
There are sections on the greatest man-made disasters ever, and also on the greatest prizefighters, a guide to buried treasure in the United States, biographies of famous and infamous scientists, a history of advertising going back to ancient Greece, and also a chapter about a minister who took over a newspaper for a week in the year 1900 and made all editorial decisions-- what was on the front page, what they covered, based on what he believed Jesus would have done, if Jesus had gone into the newspaper game.
其中有关于有史以来最严重的人为灾难的章节，也有关于最伟大的职业拳击手的章节，美国埋藏宝藏的指南，著名和臭名昭著的科学家的传记，可以追溯到古希腊的广告史，还有一章讲述一位牧师在 1900 年接管一家报纸一周并做出所有编辑决定——头版的内容，报道的内容，基于他相信如果耶稣参与报纸游戏，耶稣会做什么。
And at the end of the book was an address and a note from the authors asking for suggestions for future editions, and asking readers to tell them what parts of the book they liked and disliked.
书的最后有作者的地址和注释，征求对未来版本的建议，并要求读者告诉他们喜欢和不喜欢书中的哪些部分。
So we eventually received thousands of letters, each of which I read.
所以我们最终收到了数千封信，我阅读了每封信。
David Wallechinsky was one of the authors of The People's Almanac.
大卫·沃勒钦斯基 (David Wallechinsky) 是《人民年鉴》的作者之一。
And because of that, I was able to determine that the most popular chapter in The People's Almanac was lists.
正因为如此，我能够确定《人民年鉴》中最受欢迎的章节是列表。
Ira Glass Lists!
艾拉·格拉斯名单！
Of all the knowledge in the world, people most loved 25 pages, out of the 1,400-page book, that had some lists.
在世界上所有的知识中，人们最喜欢的是这本 1,400 页的书中有一些列表的 25 页。
Some of those lists were boring stuff, like the world's 15 biggest cities and 10 tallest buildings and 10 longest rivers.
其中一些清单很无聊，比如世界上 15 座最大的城市、10 座最高的建筑和 10 条最长的河流。
But there were weirder lists-- 20 historical figures who were born as illegitimate children, 15 people who had an absurd number of spouses.
但还有更奇怪的名单——20名历史人物是非婚生子女，15人的配偶数量多得荒唐。
And this one that was maybe a little more edgy in 1975 when this was published-- 20 celebrities who've been psychoanalyzed.
1975 年出版时，这篇文章可能更前卫一些——20 位名人接受过精神分析。
From the letters they got, Wallechinsky says that they learned that one list that readers really loved was--
瓦勒钦斯基说，从他们收到的信件中，他们了解到读者真正喜欢的一份清单是——
Famous people who never existed, but live today, like Sherlock Holmes, Superman, Wonder Woman, Scrooge McDuck.
那些从未存在过但如今仍活着的名人，如夏洛克·福尔摩斯、超人、神奇女侠、史克鲁奇·麦克老鸭。
Scrooge McDuck, not technically a person, but you get the idea.
严格来说，斯克鲁奇·麦克老鸭（Scrooge McDuck）不是一个人，但你明白我的意思。
And the most popular list was "Nine Breeds of Dog that Bite the Most." So based on that, we decided to do the first Book of Lists.
最受欢迎的名单是“咬人最多的九种狗”。基于此，我们决定制作第一本清单之书。
The first Book of Lists was an even bigger, even more ridiculously huge bestseller, a pop culture phenomenon.
第一本《清单之书》是一本更大、更可笑的畅销书，是一种流行文化现象。
It sold over three million copies, had four sequels, a short-lived TV spin off, and a board game.
它的销量超过三百万份，有四部续集、一部短命的电视衍生剧和一款棋盘游戏。
I was a teenager in the 1970s.
20 世纪 70 年代，我还是个青少年。
I had no interest in this kind of thing whatsoever, but I remember it being one of those ubiquitous books that you could not help but know about.
我对这类东西一点兴趣都没有，但我记得这是一本你无法不知道的无处不在的书。
And looking back on it now, reading The Book of Lists today, I think they accidentally figured out how to give the pleasure of scrolling the internet way before the internet existed.
现在回想起来，今天读《清单之书》，我想他们在互联网出现之前就意外地想出了如何提供在互联网上滚动的乐趣。
Basically, it was a way to leaf through impossibly random stuff until something catchy grabbed your eye.
基本上，这是一种翻阅不可能的随机内容，直到有吸引人的东西吸引你的眼球的方法。
We had different kinds of lists.
我们有不同类型的清单。
And people were responding to all of them.
人们对所有这些都做出了回应。
We had the celebrity lists, where we would ask Ronald Reagan, what are the events in history you wish you could have witnessed?
我们有名人名单，我们会问罗纳德·里根，您希望亲眼目睹哪些历史事件？
Then there were the straight lists that were statistical-- what were the worst airlines in the world based on deaths per miles flown?
然后是统计数据的直接列表——根据每英里飞行死亡人数计算，世界上最差的航空公司是哪家？
And then my favorite kind were what we call the annotated lists, where you'd actually have to do some research and then put a paragraph describing the entry.
然后我最喜欢的类型是我们所说的带注释的列表，您实际上必须在其中进行一些研究，然后放置一段描述条目的段落。
The most popular list they ever did was like that.
他们做过的最受欢迎的清单就是这样的。
And before I tell you what this list was, I want you to please listen for a second to some of the lists that it had to beat out to be the most popular list.
在我告诉你这个列表是什么之前，我希望你听一下它必须击败的一些列表才能成为最受欢迎的列表。
OK, here we go.
好的，我们开始吧。
[CLEARS THROAT] 15 famous events that happened in the bathtub.
[清嗓子]浴缸里发生的15件著名事件。
16 names of things that you never knew had names.
16 个你从来不知道的事物的名称。
18 famous brains and what they weighed.
18 个著名的大脑以及他们的重量。
14 men who became units of measurement and the units named after them.
成为测量单位的 14 个人以及以他们命名的单位。
Benjamin Franklin's 8 reasons to marry an older woman.
本杰明·富兰克林的 8 个与年长女性结婚的理由。
A lot of competition there.
那里有很多竞争。
So what was in that most popular list?
那么最受欢迎的列表中有什么？
Six sexual positions in order of popularity, and then the advantages and disadvantages of each one.
按受欢迎程度排列的六种性交姿势，然后是每种姿势的优点和缺点。
Decades later, people still tell me, thank you so much for that list.
几十年后，人们仍然告诉我，非常感谢你提供的这份清单。
I learned so much.
我学到了很多。
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
And maybe this is obvious on its face, but just lay out why that would be such a big deal in the '70s.
也许这从表面上看是显而易见的，但只需说明为什么这在 70 年代会如此重要。
I think it was a big deal because nobody talked about it.
我认为这是一件大事，因为没有人谈论它。
It wasn't in print.
它没有印刷。
And I think a lot of people only thought there was one sexual position.
我认为很多人只认为只有一种性交姿势。
No. David Wallechinsky Yeah.
不，大卫·沃勒钦斯基 是的。
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
I mean, there were people like that.
我的意思是，有这样的人。
And a lot of the people who would tell me about how it affected them, they read it at a time when they were teenagers.
很多告诉我这本书对他们有何影响的人，他们在青少年时期就读过这本书。
It's interesting, I just opened it up to that page in the book.
很有趣，我刚刚打开了书上的那一页。
And these are so basic.
这些都是非常基本的。
It literally is just like, which person is on top--
从字面上看，就像是哪个人在上面——
Yeah.
是的。
Ira Glass --and whether they're sort of lying, sitting, or standing.
Ira Glass——以及他们是躺着、坐着还是站着。
And each position gets five sentences maybe-- a sentence of advantage, a sentence of disadvantage.
每个位置可能有五个句子——一个有利的句子，一个不利的句子。
It's very terse.
非常简洁。
It's two pages total.
一共两页。
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊，是啊。
It's not the Kama Sutra.
这不是《爱经》。
David Wallechinsky has thought way more about lists than most of us.
大卫·沃勒钦斯基 (David Wallechinsky) 对列表的思考比我们大多数人都多。
And he told me this one story that illustrates how putting something on a list has such power.
他告诉我这个故事，说明将某件事列入清单具有如此大的力量。
He said that for most of his adult life, he was kind of obsessed about the terrible things that repressive governments around the world do to their people.
他说，在他成年后的大部分时间里，他都对世界各地的专制政府对其人民所做的可怕事情感到困扰。
And he wanted to write about it for magazines and convince people how important this was.
他想为杂志撰写有关此事的文章，让人们相信这是多么重要。
And he really couldn't figure out how to do that compellingly.
他真的不知道如何才能令人信服地做到这一点。
And so in 2003, I got this idea.
所以在2003年，我有了这个想法。
I'll do it as a list-- the 10 worst living dictators.
我将把它列成一个清单——现存的十个最糟糕的独裁者。
And I was obsessive in creating the order of the list of worst dictators.
我痴迷于创建最糟糕独裁者名单的顺序。
I had criteria, different criteria.
我有标准，不同的标准。
And then I gave extra credit for dictators who tortured or murdered their political opponents.
然后我对那些折磨或谋杀政治对手的独裁者给予了额外的赞扬。
He published this list, with write-ups on each dictator, in Parade Magazine, which was a big deal at the time.
他在《游行》杂志上发表了这份名单，其中包括对每位独裁者的评论，这在当时是一件大事。
It reached 32 million people.
人数达到 3200 万人。
And it was so popular that we did it annually.
它非常受欢迎，我们每年都会这样做。
And it became a cover story.
这成为了封面故事。
So millions of people read about this topic they would not otherwise have read about.
因此，数百万人阅读了他们本来不会阅读的这个主题。
The list format made accessible to people a subject they didn't know they might be interested in.
列表格式使人们可以访问他们不知道自己可能感兴趣的主题。
It made the subject digestible and human.
它使这个主题变得易于理解和人性化。
Here were 10 awful human beings you could have feelings about.
这里有 10 个你可能会产生感情的可怕的人。
That's the power of a list.
这就是列表的力量。
But of course, most of the lists in our lives are different from this.
但当然，我们生活中的大部分清单都与此不同。
Most are the lists that we write for ourselves.
大多数是我们为自己编写的列表。
And it's interesting.
这很有趣。
People put all kinds of things on those lists.
人们把各种各样的事情都列在这些清单上。
Oh, my god.
我的天啊。
I feel nervous.
我感到紧张。
Ira Glass Why do you feel nervous?
Ira Glass 你为什么感到紧张？
Because I was just looking through my list, and I just feel like a freak.
因为我只是在浏览我的清单，我只是觉得自己像个怪胎。
This is Aviva DeKornfeld, a producer at our show here.
我是 Aviva DeKornfeld，我们节目的制片人。
And I learned about the very personal and idiosyncratic lists that she keeps in a staff meeting where I talked about Wallechinsky and different kinds of lists.
我在一次员工会议上了解到她保留的非常个人化和特殊的清单，我在会议上谈到了沃列钦斯基和不同类型的清单。
And at that meeting, Aviva started talking about her lists.
在那次会议上，Aviva 开始谈论她的清单。
And so I was offering this, kind of assuming I would start saying my lists and then everyone else would be like, yeah, yeah, me too.
所以我提供这个，有点假设我会开始说出我的清单，然后其他人都会说，是的，是的，我也是。
And then they would share their lists, and it would be kind of like this bonding moment.
然后他们会分享他们的清单，这有点像这个亲密的时刻。
That's what you thought was going to happen?
这就是你认为会发生的事情吗？
Yeah.
是的。
And that's not what happened at all.
但事实并非如此。
What happened is that I named a couple of my more recent lists.
发生的事情是我列出了一些最近的清单。
And then everyone started laughing and was like, what the hell?
然后每个人都开始大笑，并说，到底是什么？
In fact, Laura, our coworker, messaged in the chat, "Aviva's brain," with like seven exclamation points.
事实上，我们的同事劳拉（Laura）在聊天中留言“Aviva 的大脑”，并带有七个感叹号。
And it felt a little-- I mean, it was all in good spirits, but it felt a little embarrassing.
感觉有点——我是说，心情很好，但感觉有点尴尬。
Aviva does keep some lists that lots of people keep-- practical stuff like books she wants to read or gift ideas for people she loves.
Aviva 确实保留了一些很多人都保留的清单——实用的东西，比如她想读的书或给她爱的人的礼物。
But then on the Notes app of her phone, there's a whole bunch of lists that have no practical purpose at all, but are really just her organizing the stuff that is rattling around in her head.
但在她手机的备忘录应用程序上，有一大堆列表，根本没有任何实际用途，但实际上只是她整理脑子里的东西。
So a list that is just organizing my brain is-- let me look-- things that are off-brand for me, or common things I've never done, or times strangers have involved me in their business for unclear reasons, like on the street or on the subway.
因此，我的大脑中列出的清单是——让我看看——对我来说不合时宜的事情，或者我从未做过的常见事情，或者陌生人出于不明原因让我参与他们的生意的时候，比如在街上或地铁上。
That happens to me all the time.
这种事经常发生在我身上。
OK, so then let's dive into those lists.
好的，那么让我们深入研究这些列表。
Things that are off-brand for me--
对我来说不属于品牌的东西——
OK.
好的。
I'm bad at jumping.
我跳得不好。
I'm inconsistent with my birth control.
我的节育措施不一致。
You mean you're not taking your pill every day that you should?
您的意思是您没有每天按时服药？
Because I'm organized.
因为我是有组织的。
The other thing that's embarrassing about reading these lists is that they're so private.
阅读这些列表的另一件令人尴尬的事情是它们是如此私密。
But whatever, I don't care.
但无论如何，我不在乎。
I can't rollerblade.
我不会滑旱冰。
I hate PETA, even though I was vegan for a year and vegetarian for a bunch of years.
我讨厌善待动物组织，尽管我吃了一年素食，吃了很多年素食。
I just really don't like them.
我只是真的不喜欢他们。
I don't love bowling.
我不喜欢打保龄球。
That's a new addition.
这是一个新的补充。
The last one I really don't want to share, but will.
最后一个我真的不想分享，但会。
But it probably shouldn't be on the radio because it makes me seem really psychotic, which is that I've never kissed anyone famous.
但它可能不应该出现在广播中，因为这让我看起来真的很精神病，也就是说我从来没有亲吻过任何名人。
And I just assumed I would have by now.
我只是假设我现在已经有了。
Because you're how old?
因为你几岁了？
Aviva DeKornfeld 30.
阿维瓦·德科恩菲尔德 30。
Yeah, a ton.
是的，一吨。
And the most famous person I've ever kissed is the captain of the Belgian field hockey team, which is not famous.
而我亲吻过的最有名的人是比利时曲棍球队的队长，这支球队并不出名。
No, that is not famous.
不，那并不出名。
Aviva DeKornfeld No. Yeah, his name was Jay.
Aviva DeKornfeld 不。是的，他的名字叫杰伊。
This list, or the list "Common things I've never done"-- which, by the way, only has two items on it, karaoke and going to Costco-- or the list, "Where I feel the emotions that I feel on my body," or the list, "Times people have referred to me as neurodivergent, even though I don't think I am"-- all these lists are different ways that Aviva is naming parts of herself for herself.
这张清单，或者“我从未做过的常见事情”清单——顺便说一句，上面只有两项，卡拉 OK 和去好市多——或者清单“我在身体上感受到的情绪”，或者清单“有时人们称我为神经分歧者，尽管我不认为我是”——所有这些清单都是 Aviva 为自己命名的不同方式。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah, I'm just trying to make sense of who I am and what is going on in my brain.
是的，我只是想弄清楚我是谁以及我的大脑中正在发生什么。
In list form.
以列表形式。
Aviva DeKornfeld Yeah, because it's so organized and clear and clean.
Aviva DeKornfeld 是的，因为它是如此有组织、清晰和干净。
And the business of making sense of yourself I've found to be extremely messy.
我发现了解自己的意义是极其混乱的。
With that in mind, Aviva still keeps old defunct lists because they're like a record of who she was-- lists from when she was a teenager, like "Harmless things my dad hates," or "Things I should have known," or her very first list, "Scenes from my grandmother's nursing home"-- made on weekly visits when she was 14, trying to make sense of that world.
考虑到这一点，Aviva 仍然保留着旧的、不再使用的清单，因为它们就像是她是谁的记录——她十几岁时的清单，比如“我爸爸讨厌的无害的事情”或“我应该知道的事情”，或者她的第一个清单，“我祖母疗养院的场景”——她在 14 岁时每周都会去拜访，试图理解那个世界。
Normally, she doesn't show these lists to anybody.
通常，她不会向任何人展示这些清单。
She'd just notice something about herself, and then she'll notice a second example of the same thing, and she starts to collect them so she can stare at the list, try to understand it.
她只会注意到自己的一些事情，然后她会注意到同一件事的第二个例子，然后她开始收集它们，这样她就可以盯着列表，尝试理解它。
And the fact that it's collected on a list, what feeling does that give you, once it's on the list?
事实上，它被收集在一个列表中，一旦它出现在列表中，会给你什么感觉？
Oh, my god, it's like relief.
哦，天哪，这就像解脱一样。
It's so nice.
真是太好了。
Because it's just bouncing around in my brain.
因为它只是在我的脑子里跳来跳去。
And so once it's on a list, I don't feel like I have to remember it.
所以一旦它出现在清单上，我就觉得我不需要记住它。
But it isn't just you don't have to think about it.
但这不仅仅是您不必考虑的问题。
It's like you don't have to worry about it.
就好像你不必担心它一样。
Before you put it on the list, it seems like there's a kind of fretting of like, what does this mean about me that this is a thing?
在你把它列入清单之前，似乎有一种烦恼，比如，这对我来说意味着什么？
And then once you put it on the list, you're like, I know what it means.
一旦你把它放在清单上，你就会想，我知道它意味着什么。
It means it's on this list.
这意味着它在这个列表中。
Yeah, totally.
是的，完全可以。
That's true.
这是真的。
I exist, and this is a thing about me.
我存在，这是关于我的事情。
Today, on our program, lists, and how they tame the chaos of the world.
今天，在我们的节目中，列出了他们如何驯服世界的混乱。
I have to say, I feel very aware in putting together everything that I have said to you so far today.
我不得不说，将我今天到目前为止对你们所说的一切整理起来，我感到非常有意识。
The way I did it is the way I write every radio story I've ever done since, I don't know, forever.
我这样做的方式就是我写每一个广播故事的方式，从那以后，我不知道，永远。
The first thing I do is I make a list of all the possible quotes that I might use.
我做的第一件事是列出我可能使用的所有可能的引用。
So in this case, it was three single-spaced typed pages of quotes from Aviva and from David Wallechinsky, with asterisks by the quotes I like the most.
因此，在本例中，这是三页单行距打字的 Aviva 和 David Wallechinsky 的引言，其中我最喜欢的引言旁边带有星号。
And then what I do is I stare at the list until it just pops out for me.
然后我所做的就是盯着清单，直到它突然出现在我面前。
This quote should come first, and this one second, and this one should end the thing.
这句话应该放在第一位，然后是这个，最后这个应该结束这件事。
I have no idea how to write any radio story without a list to take control of all the confusion and all the possible choices that I could make and make it make sense.
我不知道如何在没有列表的情况下写任何广播故事来控制所有的混乱和我可以做出的所有可能的选择并使其有意义。
So today, lists, how they run the world and everything in it.
所以今天，我们列出了他们如何管理这个世界以及其中的一切。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
And hold on, I have a list right here.
等等，我这里有一份清单。
Number 1, stay with us.
第一，留在我们身边。
Number 2, stay with us.
第二，和我们在一起。
Number 3, stay with us.
第三，留在我们身边。
It's This American Life, Act 1, "List for Life." So let's start our show today with a list designed as a kind of magical tool for living your life and maximizing your potential and being your very best self.
这就是《美国生活》，第一幕，“生活清单”。因此，让我们以一份清单开始今天的节目，这份清单被设计为一种神奇的工具，可以帮助您过上生活，最大限度地发挥您的潜力，并成为最好的自己。
Or anyway, that's what this list was supposed to do.
或者无论如何，这就是这个列表应该做的事情。
The story comes to us from John Fecile.
这个故事来自约翰·费西尔。
Sure.
当然。
John Fecile You want to see it?
约翰·费西尔 你想看吗？
It's right-- this is it right here.
没错——就是这里。
I'm on a Zoom call with my brother Pat, talking about a list that was written by our other brother, Mike.
我正在和我的兄弟帕特进行 Zoom 通话，谈论我们的另一个兄弟迈克写的一份清单。
And I want to ask him what he thinks I should do with it.
我想问他认为我应该用它做什么。
It's one of the last pieces of Mike's writing that we have.
这是我们所拥有的迈克最后的作品之一。
What do you think should be done with this list?
您认为应该对这份清单做什么？
I don't care.
我不在乎。
John Fecile If you burned it, I wouldn't feel sad.
约翰·费西尔 如果你把它烧掉，我不会感到难过。
I wouldn't be angry.
我不会生气。
I'd say, why'd you burn it without me?
我会说，你为什么不带我就烧掉它？
My brother Mike died in 2015.
我的兄弟迈克于 2015 年去世。
That's almost 10 years ago now.
那已经是差不多10年前的事了。
Jeez.
天啊。
And trigger warning and all that, he died because of a suicidal act.
并触发警告和所有这些，他因自杀行为而死亡。
It's unclear why he did what he did.
目前还不清楚他为什么这么做。
There were stories his roommates told about paranoia, hallucinations, Mike becoming obsessed with aliens.
他的室友讲述了关于偏执、幻觉、迈克对外星人着迷的故事。
It was all so sudden and shocking that my family and I started grasping around for anything, trying to make it all make sense, which brings me to the list.
这一切来得如此突然和令人震惊，我和我的家人开始四处寻找任何东西，试图让这一切变得有意义，这让我进入了这个清单。
Mike wrote the list the summer he was about to be a sophomore in high school-- 16 principles to live his life by, titled, "Goals for Success," double underlined on a rectangular piece of poster board.
迈克在他即将上高中二年级的那个夏天写下了一份清单——他生活的 16 条原则，标题为“成功的目标”，在一块长方形的海报板上画了双下划线。
They were corny bro-isms, if I'm being honest.
老实说，他们都是老生常谈的兄弟主义。
"Make a commitment.
“做出承诺。
Be unselfish.
要无私。
Create unity.
创造团结。
Come together as never before." As you can see, Mike was a real overachiever, Type A type.
以前所未有的方式聚集在一起。”正如你所看到的，迈克是一个真正的优等生，A 型。
"Improve every day as a player, person, and student.
“作为一名球员、个人和学生，每天都在进步。
Be tough.
要强硬。
Be self-disciplined-- do it right, don't accept less."
自律——做正确的事，不接受更少的事。”
He was captain of the high school football team, straight-A student.
他是高中橄榄球队的队长，全优生。
"Give great effort.
“付出很大的努力。
Be enthusiastic.
要有热情。
Eliminate mistakes.
消除错误。
Don't beat yourself." He hung the list on his closet door, facing his bed, so that when he woke up in the morning, the first thing he saw was-- "Expect to win.
别打败自己。”他把名单挂在衣柜门上，面向床，这样当他早上醒来时，他看到的第一件事就是——“期待胜利。
Be consistent.
保持一致。
Develop leadership.
培养领导力。
Be responsible."
要有责任感。”
I first noticed the list when I went into Mike's bedroom to steal a pair of his boxers.
当我走进迈克的卧室偷他的一条平角内裤时，我第一次注意到了这份清单。
I was always forgetting to do my laundry.
我总是忘记洗衣服。
Mike always did his.
迈克总是做他的。
And my feelings about the list were immediately complicated.
我对这份名单的感觉立刻变得复杂起来。
I felt like it was somehow judging me.
我觉得它在某种程度上评判我。
I was the oldest of my siblings.
我是兄弟姐妹中最年长的。
But to me, Mike always felt older.
但对我来说，迈克总是感觉自己老了。
He was Mr. Rotary Club, Mr. Scheduled Out His Daily Routine.
他是扶轮社先生，安排了他的日常事务。
I was Mr. Been Arrested Twice, Mr. Smoking Weed out of an Aluminum Can and Probably Doing Irreparable Damage to my Lungs in the Woods.
我是两次被捕的先生，在树林里用铝罐吸大麻，可能对我的肺造成了不可挽回的伤害。
And Mike knew he was better than me.
迈克知道他比我更好。
He even wrote a poem in English class about how disappointed he was in me.
他甚至在英语课上写了一首诗来表达他对我有多失望。
I'm not kidding.
我不是在开玩笑。
It was titled "Second Chances."
它的标题是“第二次机会”。
Back then, I resented the list.
那时，我对这份清单很反感。
I probably made fun of him about it because that was the nature of our relationship, even though we were close.
我可能为此取笑他，因为这就是我们关系的本质，尽管我们很亲密。
But after he died, I actually saw these principles as something I should live up to.
但在他去世后，我实际上认为这些原则是我应该遵守的。
Because at that point, I was spiraling.
因为在那一刻，我正在螺旋式上升。
Mike was 24 when he died.
迈克去世时年仅 24 岁。
I was 26.
那年我26岁。
I couldn't get myself together-- drinking, depression, a simmering, futile anger at the universe.
我无法让自己平静下来——酗酒、抑郁、对宇宙酝酿着、徒劳的愤怒。
The original had been framed.
原件已装裱。
And I asked my parents if I could have it, and hung it up in my apartment by the front door.
我问我的父母是否可以拥有它，然后把它挂在我公寓的前门旁。
I thought maybe its commandments might rub off on me.
我想也许它的戒律可能会影响到我。
And there it stayed for a bit.
它在那里停留了一会儿。
I'd glance at it every once in a while and feel again like I was falling short.
我会时不时地看一眼，然后再次感觉自己的能力不够。
So after a couple of years, I took it down.
所以几年后，我把它拿了下来。
I shoved it in the back of my closet.
我把它塞进衣柜后面。
It just bothered me, the toxic positivity, therapist-waiting-room-posterness of it all.
这一切让我感到困扰，有毒的积极性，治疗师候诊室的海报。
But I also couldn't bear to get rid of it, which is why I called up Pat to finally figure out what to do with it.
但我也无法忍受摆脱它，这就是为什么我打电话给帕特，最终弄清楚如何处理它。
If anything, I would think the list would be cursed.
如果有的话，我认为这份名单会被诅咒。
So you can keep it if it makes you feel better.
因此，如果它让您感觉更好，您可以保留它。
I don't want anything to do with the list.
我不想与这份名单有任何关系。
Pat was the closest person to Mike in the world.
帕特是世界上与迈克最亲近的人。
He's two years younger than Mike, who was a year and a half younger than me.
他比迈克小两岁，迈克比我小一岁半。
Pat and I can't even agree on the most basic things about the list.
帕特和我甚至无法就这份清单的最基本的事情达成一致。
And he had neat handwriting.
而且他的字迹工整。
That was one thing that struck me, looking at the list, is how neat his handwriting is.
看着这份名单，让我印象深刻的一件事是他的笔迹是多么工整。
Yeah way!
是的，方式！
Pat Fecile Are those straight lines?
帕特·费塞尔 那些是直线吗？
Are we looking at the same photo?
我们在看同一张照片吗？
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
Pat Fecile No, that's not neat.
Pat Fecile 不，这不太好。
That's neat.
这很整洁。
Pat Fecile Look at the K.
帕特·菲西尔（Pat Fecile） 看看 K.
He doesn't even dot the i's.
他甚至没有点“i”。
But he's consistently not dotting his i's.
但他始终不加点他的“i”。
That says something.
这说明了一些事情。
That he never learned how to write the letter i?
他从来没有学过如何写“i”这封信？
Pat saw something in the list that I also felt, but I couldn't necessarily name.
帕特在清单中看到了一些我也感觉到的东西，但我不一定能说出名字。
What role do you think the list played in his death?
您认为这份名单在他的死亡中扮演了什么角色？
The list didn't play a role, but it's a reflection of his psychology, which played every role in his death and shows you the type of responsibility he felt.
这份清单没有发挥任何作用，但它反映了他的心理，这种心理在他的死亡中发挥了每一个作用，并向你展示了他所感受到的责任类型。
It shows you the type of pressure he put on himself.
它向您展示了他给自己施加的压力类型。
There's nothing about self-care in it.
里面没有任何关于自我保健的内容。
And there's nothing about being true to yourself either.
忠于自己也没什么意义。
It shows you a lot of what was going on with him and this mindset that he got trapped in and that made him very sick.
它向你展示了他身上发生的很多事情，以及他陷入的这种心态，这让他病得很厉害。
When Mike was a sophomore at Penn State, he started experiencing delusions and he was barely sleeping.
当迈克在宾夕法尼亚州立大学读二年级时，他开始出现妄想症，并且几乎无法入睡。
But if he felt like he was struggling, he didn't tell anyone.
但如果他觉得自己在挣扎，他不会告诉任何人。
He kept going to class.
他继续去上课。
His roommates noticed.
他的室友注意到了。
And they were talking about how to get him help.
他们正在讨论如何向他寻求帮助。
And I think, this is just my opinion, a guess, that Mike didn't want to be found out.
我认为，这只是我的观点和猜测，迈克不想被发现。
In the past, I've connected the list to Mike's mindset, as in, he was not somebody who's going to be vulnerable if he was suffering.
过去，我将这份清单与迈克的心态联系起来，因为他不是一个在遭受痛苦时就会变得脆弱的人。
No, he was not.
不，他不是。
John Fecile Are there any bullet points that stand out to you in particular?
John Fecile 有没有什么要点让您特别印象深刻？
There's a bunch.
有一堆。
"Eliminate mistakes," that's one of the ones that's just so stupid.
“消除错误”是最愚蠢的错误之一。
Eliminate mistakes?
消除错误？
What do you mean?
你是什么意思？
That's why they're mistakes.
这就是为什么他们是错误的。
Pat Fecile Yeah.
帕特·菲塞尔 是的。
"Create unity.
“创造团结。
Come together as never before." I mean, he's not just trying to get people to come together, "as never before."
以前所未有的方式聚集在一起。”我的意思是，他不仅仅是“以前所未有的方式”让人们走到一起。
[LAUGHS] I like that one.
[笑]我喜欢那个。
That reminds me of, he was a good unifier.
这让我想起，他是一个很好的统一者。
He had friends across all the arbitrary social cliques.
他的朋友遍布各个社会派系。
After he passed, did you think about the list at all?
他去世后，你有考虑过这份名单吗？
I didn't give it a lot of thought until I went to the football banquet and heard Mr. Ricci speak.
我并没有多想，直到我去参加足球宴会并听到里奇先生讲话。
And then I got pretty angry.
然后我很生气。
And then I was pretty annoyed at the list.
然后我对这份清单感到非常恼火。
One of the captains of our 2008 team and a 2009 Garnet Valley graduate, Mike Fecile, embodied the qualities of the coachable player.
我们 2008 年球队的队长之一、2009 年石榴石谷毕业生迈克·费西尔 (Mike Fecile) 体现了可教练球员的品质。
That's Mike's high school football coach, in case you can't just tell from his voice, renaming an award after my brother at a banquet in 2016.
这是迈克的高中橄榄球教练，如果你无法仅从他的声音中辨别出来的话，他在 2016 年的一次宴会上以我哥哥的名字重新命名了一个奖项。
Mike created and shared a list of goals for success, 16 standards that he vowed to uphold and to use as a compass to guide his path.
Mike 创建并分享了一系列成功目标和 16 项标准，他发誓要坚持这些标准，并将其用作指导自己道路的指南针。
They were, "Make a commitment.
他们是，“做出承诺。
Be unselfish."
做个无私的人。”
This is really the moment the list passed into lore, when it became the way my brother was remembered.
这确实是这份名单进入传说的时刻，它成为人们记住我兄弟的方式。
The coach paid to have Goals for Success professionally matted and framed.
教练花钱让成功目标得到了专业的布置和框架。
That's the copy that I have.
这就是我拥有的副本。
He also hung a replica of the list in our high school's weight room, next to a photo of Mike in football gear, with his tough game face on to inspire future generations, which I appreciated.
他还在我们高中的举重室里挂了一份这份名单的复制品，旁边是迈克穿着橄榄球装备的照片，他脸上的坚韧表情激励了后代，我对此表示赞赏。
He was putting so much into memorializing Mike.
他为纪念迈克付出了很多。
But later, I started worrying about the kids who saw it and whether they might judge themselves by it the same way that I had.
但后来，我开始担心那些看到它的孩子们，以及他们是否会像我一样用它来评判自己。
We want our players to do what you're supposed to do and believe if it is to be, it's up to me.
我们希望我们的球员做你应该做的事情，并且相信如果要做的话，这取决于我。
We want them to be model citizens, model athletes, and model sons.
我们希望他们成为模范公民、模范运动员和模范儿子。
In essence, we want them to be like Mike Fecile.
本质上，我们希望他们像迈克·费西尔一样。
The coach goes on to describe what happened to Mike.
教练接着描述了迈克的遭遇。
He says that he fell from the fourth floor balcony of his dorm and that it was an accident, which he got from my parents.
他说他是从宿舍四楼阳台摔下来的，是一次意外，是我父母给他的。
That was how they framed it.
他们就是这样设计的。
But Mike didn't fall.
但迈克没有摔倒。
He jumped.
他跳了起来。
The list still makes me feel sad.
这份清单仍然让我感到悲伤。
But that was when the list started making me feel angry.
但从那时起，这份清单开始让我感到愤怒。
To me, it's like this obsession with image that is such a toxic quality of the community that we're from and the family that we're from.
对我来说，这就像对形象的痴迷，对我们所在的社区和我们所在的家庭来说是一种有毒的品质。
We may have looked good from the outside, but alcoholism and mental illness run in our family and were a big part of my childhood.
从外表上看，我们可能看起来不错，但酗酒和精神疾病是我们家族的遗传，也是我童年的重要组成部分。
You don't need to know the specifics.
你不需要知道具体细节。
Just know that it was chaos.
只知道当时很混乱。
And not even Mr. Golden Child was spared from it.
就连金童先生也未能幸免。
But where I struggled and flailed and totally embodied all that chaos, Mike tried to contain it, to impose order on it, to fix it by being perfect.
但在我挣扎、挣扎、完全体现出所有混乱的地方，迈克试图控制它，给它强加秩序，通过完美来修复它。
And that's what the list is, a manifestation of his drive to be perfect.
这就是这份清单，体现了他追求完美的动力。
That's how Pat sees it, anyway.
无论如何，帕特就是这么看的。
It's painful for me, the list, because it's about what trauma did to Mike.
这份清单对我来说很痛苦，因为它关系到迈克的创伤。
And now these adults are waving it around like it was some sort of thing to be proud of with him.
现在这些成年人正在挥舞着它，就像这是一件值得他骄傲的事情。
And there's a lot of things that I'm very proud of that he did.
他所做的很多事情我都感到非常自豪。
I'd rather those things be remembered than this insane pressure that he put on himself.
我宁愿记住这些事情，也不愿记住他给自己施加的疯狂压力。
What do you wish he was remembered for?
你希望他因什么而被人们铭记？
What are the things you want him remembered for?
你希望他因哪些事情被铭记？
I think just who he was, really.
我真的认为他是谁。
There's really nothing to be ashamed of.
确实没有什么可羞耻的。
But he wasn't this model person in school.
但他并不是学校里的模范人物。
We sold weed together.
我们一起卖杂草。
We provided pretty much the entire football team with weed.
我们几乎为整个足球队提供了大麻。
We had a little business thing going on.
我们有一点生意上的事。
It was funny.
这很有趣。
It wasn't bad.
这还不错。
It was funny.
这很有趣。
It's also just the truth.
这也是事实。
Whether it's funny or not funny, I just want the truth remembered.
不管好笑还是不好笑，我只是想让真相被记住。
I don't want to have to deal with these fake stories about Mike.
我不想处理这些关于迈克的假故事。
When I was at the banquet, they gave a check to the kid that won his award.
当我参加宴会时，他们给了获奖的孩子一张支票。
And I'm with dad.
而且我和爸爸在一起。
And the kid comes up.
孩子就上来了。
And dad says to him, he goes, make sure you spend this on other people.
爸爸对他说，他走了，确保你把钱花在其他人身上。
That's what Mike would have done.
这就是迈克会做的。
And I look at the kid--
我看着那个孩子——
That's what I said.
我就是这么说的。
And I looked at dad and I go, who are you talking about?
我看着爸爸，然后我问，你在说谁？
You talking about Mike?
你在说迈克吗？
And then I look at the kid and I'm just like, dude, my brother would have spent this on the dumbest shit, all right?
然后我看着那个孩子，我就想，老兄，我哥哥会把这个花在最愚蠢的事情上，好吗？
You do whatever you want with that money, kid.
你可以用这笔钱做任何你想做的事，孩子。
Go have fun.
去玩吧。
Really?
真的吗？
You said that?
你这么说？
Pat Fecile Yeah.
帕特·菲塞尔 是的。
He would have.
他会的。
He would have blown that money.
他会花掉这笔钱的。
He was greedy--
他很贪心——
He was terrible with money.
他在钱方面很糟糕。
John Fecile --and also bad with money, yeah.
约翰·费西尔（John Fecile）——是的，而且在金钱方面也很糟糕。
He would buy a $400 pair of sunglasses and then accidentally leave them on top of a car and lose them.
他会买一副价值 400 美元的太阳镜，然后不小心把它们落在车顶上并丢失。
Didn't he put a subwoofer in his car too, at one point?
他不是曾经在自己的车里放过低音炮吗？
The subwoofer was awesome, OK?
低音炮很棒，好吗？
The subwoofer was such a deal and perfectly for the hatchback.
低音炮非常划算，非常适合掀背车。
And Dad put his foot down--
爸爸放下了脚——
The list doesn't just leave out Mike's flaws.
这份清单不仅仅遗漏了迈克的缺点。
It also misses, really, the best stuff about him.
事实上，它也错过了他最好的东西。
He was warm, generous, extremely goofy.
他热情、慷慨，但又非常愚蠢。
He was curious.
他很好奇。
And that was a really good quality that he had.
这是他所拥有的非常好的品质。
He found people really interesting.
他发现人们真的很有趣。
So he liked to listen.
所以他很喜欢听。
Be curious would be a good one to be on here.
保持好奇心是一件好事。
Yeah.
是的。
Kids from my grade, they come up to me and they tell me stories about Mike, when they started on the football team and they felt they didn't belong there.
我年级的孩子们来到我身边，给我讲关于迈克的故事，当他们开始加入橄榄球队时，他们觉得自己不属于那里。
Because the older kids were dicks.
因为大一点的孩子都是混蛋。
And they said my brother would come around and he would comfort them and he would encourage them.
他们说我哥哥会过来，他会安慰他们，他会鼓励他们。
And then I remember hearing from Ally Opromolla.
然后我记得听到艾丽·奥普罗莫拉的来信。
And she said when they were dating, Mike had a great relationship with her grandmother.
她说，当他们约会时，迈克和她的祖母关系很好。
And he would watch TV with her grandmother.
他会和她的祖母一起看电视。
I think it was like game shows or something.
我认为这就像游戏节目之类的。
Maybe it was Wheel of Fortune.
也许这就是命运之轮。
And he would just watch TV with her.
他只会和她一起看电视。
And they would shoot the shit.
他们会开枪。
Yeah, those are the stories that I'm proud of.
是的，这些都是我引以为豪的故事。
Because they are a reflection of who he was.
因为它们反映了他是谁。
He was a good guy that people enjoyed.
他是一个人们喜欢的好人。
And that's the kind of stuff I want to remember.
这就是我想要记住的事情。
Last year, Pat wrote to the football coach at our high school and asked him to use the list to spread awareness about suicide.
去年，帕特写信给我们高中的橄榄球教练，要求他使用这份清单来提高人们对自杀的认识。
He got him to add a line to the bottom of it.
他让他在底部添加一行。
It says, "There is great strength in vulnerability, as it takes courage to push through the fear and share one's true self with others."
它说：“脆弱中蕴藏着巨大的力量，因为需要勇气克服恐惧并与他人分享真实的自我。”
Recently, after my wife and I moved into our new apartment, I made a decision to hang up the list again.
最近，我和妻子搬进新公寓后，我决定再次挂清单。
It's in my home office.
它在我的家庭办公室里。
Now I'm the one looking at it every day.
现在我每天都在看它。
And I don't resent it anymore.
我不再怨恨它了。
Maybe it still makes me feel a little weird, OK?
也许这仍然让我觉得有点奇怪，好吗？
But I see it for what it is.
但我看到了它的本质。
I don't feel judged by it.
我不觉得自己因此受到评判。
And some of the lists, I'm genuinely down with.
其中一些清单我真的很不满意。
Create unity is a beautiful idea.
创造团结是一个美好的想法。
It reminds me of the best of Mike.
它让我想起了迈克最好的一面。
But mostly, I just like looking at my brother's handwriting.
但大多数时候，我只是喜欢看我哥哥的笔迹。
John Fecile.
约翰·费西尔.
He's a Senior Producer at the show Snap Judgment.
他是《快速判断》节目的高级制片人。
His story was produced by Sean Cole.
他的故事由肖恩·科尔制作。
Coming up, over a hundred dogs and one giant bear, and its list of enemies.
接下来是一百多只狗和一只巨熊，以及它的敌人名单。
That's in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.
稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program-- Lists!
今天的节目——榜单！
How they tame the chaos of the world.
他们如何驯服世界的混乱。
This list is all the dogs in my dog's life, kind of segmented by different criteria.
这个列表是我的狗生命中的所有狗，按不同的标准分类。
This is Bobby Sherwood, who's friends with one of our producers here, Chris Benderev.
这是鲍比·舍伍德（Bobby Sherwood），他是我们这里的一位制片人克里斯·本德列夫（Chris Benderev）的朋友。
And he's showing Chris a lists that he keeps on his phone of neighborhood dogs.
他向克里斯展示了他手机上保存的邻居狗的名单。
We've got Lunchbox, who's a cream Scottie with a turquoise vest.
我们有午餐盒，他是一只奶油色的苏格兰人，穿着绿松石背心。
We've got Virgil, who is some kind of doodle dog.
我们有维吉尔，他是某种涂鸦狗。
But I said, "little fried chicken dog." And the owner looks like my friend Otto.
但我说：“小炸鸡狗。”店主看起来像我的朋友奥托。
Some doodles have tight, curly brown hair fur.
有些涂鸦有紧密的、卷曲的棕色毛发。
And it looks exactly like fried chicken.
而且它看起来和炸鸡一模一样。
So this dog literally looks like a walking piece of fried chicken.
所以这只狗看起来就像一块会走路的炸鸡。
Bobby keeps this list because there are so many dogs where he lives.
鲍比保留了这份清单，因为他住的地方有很多狗。
There are 130 dogs on this list.
这份名单上有130只狗。
And his memory isn't always the greatest.
而且他的记忆力并不总是最好的。
And he's convinced that people can tell if you don't know their dog's name and you're faking it by saying things like--
他相信，如果你不知道他们的狗的名字，而你只是通过说这样的话来假装，人们就能看出来——
How's he or she doing today?
他或她今天过得怎么样？
Or how's your puppy?
或者你的小狗怎么样了？
You got to find--
你必须找到——
And he is not into the potential awkwardness of that.
他并不认为这可能会带来尴尬。
OK, just for context, he does have a list of people like this too, to remember the spouses of friends and coworkers that he's met just once, and people's kids.
好吧，仅供参考，他也有一份这样的人的名单，以记住他只见过一次的朋友和同事的配偶，以及人们的孩子。
But the dog list, he also finds it helpful to rank all the dogs.
但在狗名单上，他还发现对所有狗进行排名很有帮助。
So his dog Chewy's favorites are at the top.
所以他的狗 Chewy 最喜欢的就是上面的。
And his least favorites are at the bottom.
他最不喜欢的在底部。
There are some dogs that bully Chewy, so we throw them at the bottom of the list.
有些狗会欺负Chewy，所以我们把它们放在列表的底部。
And then we know, hey, this one is [BLEEP] who beats up Chewy.
然后我们知道，嘿，这个人是[BLEEP]，他殴打了Chewy。
You might want to bleep that name.
你可能想念出这个名字。
To see how this works in practice, Chris followed Bobby to the dog park.
为了看看这在实践中是如何运作的，克里斯跟随鲍比去了狗公园。
And it doesn't take long before they get into a list-needing situation.
没过多久，他们就会陷入需要清单的境地。
I definitely think I recognize that dog, the tall doodle over there.
我想我绝对认得那只狗，就是那边那只高高的涂鸦。
So I see a big boy I'm sure Chewy's run into at this dog park before.
所以我看到了一个大男孩，我确信 Chewy 以前在这个狗公园遇到过。
Let me see.
让我看看。
Scrolling.
滚动。
He scrolls down the list on his phone until he gets to the dog park section, searching for a dog with a description--
他向下滚动手机上的列表，直到到达狗公园部分，搜索一条带有描述的狗——
Shaggy brown doodle?
毛茸茸的棕色涂鸦？
Yeah.
是的。
I don't know.
我不知道。
He finds nothing.
他什么也没发现。
He'll have to add that one to the list.
他必须将其添加到列表中。
Bobby has no idea how other dog owners do it, keep track of all the dogs, though I think it's entirely possible that other people are no better with the names than he is.
鲍比不知道其他狗主人是如何做到这一点的，跟踪所有的狗，尽管我认为其他人完全有可能对这些名字并不比他更好。
And they just don't care.
他们只是不在乎。
Yeah, he's a cutie.
是的，他是个可爱的人。
Ira Glass When he and Chris get back to the house, they run into a neighbor's dog who somehow wasn't on the list yet.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：当他和克里斯回到家时，他们遇到了邻居的狗，但不知何故它还没有出现在名单上。
I'm going to add it to the list, though.
不过，我会把它添加到列表中。
I've actually bumped into that dog many times.
事实上，我已经多次撞见那只狗了。
And he always says he's friendly.
而且他总是说他很友善。
And it's like, yeah, I know.
就像，是的，我知道。
We've met like 10 times.
我们已经见过10次了。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I don't know.
我不知道。
That guy needs a list though, you know?
那家伙需要一份清单，你知道吗？
Act 2, "Target List." There's some lists you definitely do not want to be on.
第二幕，“目标清单”。有一些列表是您绝对不希望出现的。
This past Thanksgiving, M had people come stay with them at a house they affectionately call the dacha because it's out of the city and they're Russian.
刚刚过去的感恩节，M 让人们来和他们一起住在一所他们亲切地称为别墅的房子里，因为它位于城外，而且他们是俄罗斯人。
That's just the word Russians use.
这只是俄罗斯人使用的词。
M is M.
米是米。
Gessen.
格森。
They write about Russia for The New Yorker and in books.
他们为《纽约客》和书籍撰写有关俄罗斯的文章。
And the day after Thanksgiving, two of their guests left for some other celebration.
感恩节后的第二天，他们的两位客人出发去参加其他庆祝活动。
And a bunch of the remaining guests, four or five people, went on a hike, a pretty vertical one, actually, up a nearby mountain.
剩下的一群客人，四五个人，去徒步旅行，实际上是一次相当垂直的徒步旅行，爬上附近的一座山。
So they get to a spot way up high.
所以他们到达了一个很高的地方。
Yeah, it's an overlook point.
是的，这是一个忽略点。
It's pretty tiny.
它非常小。
We're all standing pretty close together, looking out at the Catskills and the little town where we live.
我们都站得很近，眺望着卡茨基尔山和我们居住的小镇。
And then two of us pulled out our phones.
然后我们两个人拿出了手机。
As one does.
正如一个人所做的那样。
How much nature can you take?
你能承受多少自然？
And both of us saw a news item that one of the friends who had left that morning had been declared a foreign agent.
我们俩都看到一则新闻，说那天早上离开的一位朋友被宣布为外国特工。
Foreign agent, in other words, the Russian government just put him on an official list of people that it is not very fond of.
外国特工，换句话说，俄罗斯政府只是把他列入了一份不太喜欢的官方名单。
Foreign agent is not a good thing.
外国代理人不是什么好东西。
And this is something that the Russian government does almost every Friday.
而这也是俄罗斯政府几乎每周五都会做的事情。
Right.
正确的。
It's like this weird, weird spectator sport to see who is now a foreign agent.
这就像一场奇怪的、奇怪的观赏性运动，看看谁现在是外国经纪人。
It's weird.
很奇怪。
It's like a sinister version of when Oscar nominations come out or something, you know?
这就像奥斯卡提名公布之类的险恶版本，你知道吗？
Actually, that's not a bad simile.
事实上，这并不是一个糟糕的比喻。
Because when Oscar nominations come out, then you have to wonder, what's going to be the outcome for any one of these?
因为当奥斯卡提名出来时，你必须想知道，其中任何一项的结果会是什么？
Yeah.
是的。
M.
M。
Gessen And with foreign agents, it's a little bit like that.
格森：对于外国特工来说，情况有点类似。
Part of being on the list of foreign agents is that you're put on notice.
被列入外国特工名单的一部分原因是你会受到注意。
You're on our radar.
你在我们的雷达上。
We may launch a criminal case against you, which has much harsher consequences.
我们可能会对您提起刑事诉讼，这会产生更严重的后果。
Oh, you can graduate from this list to worse lists?
哦，你可以从这个列表转到更糟糕的列表吗？
Yes, they end up on other lists, like the wanted list.
是的，他们最终出现在其他名单上，比如通缉名单。
Or somebody just stays a foreign agent indefinitely.
或者有人无限期地担任外国代理人。
But it's extremely unpleasant.
但这是非常不愉快的。
It sort of reconfigures your world.
它在某种程度上重新配置了你的世界。
So they're out on this mountain.
所以他们就在这座山上。
M and one of the other Russians reads this on their phones, that their friend who they just had Thanksgiving dinner with the night before is now a foreign agent.
M 和其他一位俄罗斯人在手机上读到了这一消息，前一天晚上刚刚与他们共进感恩节晚餐的朋友现在是一名外国特工。
So we both say his last name, Venyavkin.
所以我们都说他的姓氏，维尼亚夫金。
And this is something that's actually happened before between the two of us, where we just take out our phones on a Friday, see a name, and say the name.
这是我们两个人之间以前实际发生过的事情，我们只是在周五拿出手机，看到一个名字，然后说出这个名字。
Because you don't have to say, Venyavkin has been named a foreign agent, because we know it's Friday.
因为你不必说，维尼亚夫金已被任命为外国特工，因为我们知道今天是星期五。
M says Russia is now in an age of lists.
M 表示，俄罗斯现在正处于一个清单时代。
It started when Vladimir Putin created the list of foreign agents when he took the presidency for a second time in 2012.
这一切始于弗拉基米尔·普京 (Vladimir Putin) 2012 年第二次就任总统时制定的外国特工名单。
And he started clamping down on dissent.
他开始压制异见。
At first, it was just organizations on the foreign agents list-- human rights groups, media outfits.
起初，这些组织只是外国代理人名单上的组织——人权组织、媒体机构。
And then, three and a half years ago, they started adding the names of people to the list.
然后，三年半前，他们开始将人员姓名添加到名单中。
Russia actually modeled its foreign agent law on an American foreign agent law.
俄罗斯实际上以美国外国代理人法为蓝本制定了其外国代理人法。
It dates to the 1930s.
它的历史可以追溯到 20 世纪 30 年代。
One key difference between the two laws, among many, in America, to be a foreign agent, you actually have to be working for or acting on behalf of a foreign government organization.
两项法律之间的一个关键区别是，在美国，要成为外国代理人，您实际上必须为外国政府组织工作或代表外国政府组织行事。
And you put yourself on the list.
然后你把自己列入名单。
You register as a foreign agent.
您注册为外国代理人。
In Russia, the government just puts you on a list, calls you a foreign agent, and voila, you are one.
在俄罗斯，政府只是把你列入名单，称你为外国特工，瞧，你就是其中之一。
M says this list and the way the Putin government has been using it are typical of the way he's operating these days.
M 表示，这份清单以及普京政府使用该清单的方式是他目前的典型运作方式。
It's very bureaucratic.
这是非常官僚主义的。
And so all these lists have weird nomenclatures.
所以所有这些列表都有奇怪的术语。
It's foreign agents list or undesirable organizations or unfriendly countries.
它是外国特工名单或不良组织或不友好国家。
So the United States, for example, is an unfriendly country to Russia.
例如，美国对俄罗斯来说就是一个不友好的国家。
Right.
正确的。
M.
M。
Gessen What they mean is mortal enemy.
格森 他们的意思是不共戴天的敌人。
It's so weird that they feel compelled to divide off the world into the friendly countries and unfriendly countries, that they actually have to write it down on a list.
这太奇怪了，他们觉得有必要把世界分为友好国家和不友好国家，他们实际上必须把它写在一张清单上。
That's a great point.
这是一个很好的观点。
It's a combination of a country that has the ideology of a fortress under siege and a country that has a deeply, deeply bureaucratic self-understanding.
这是一个有着被围困的堡垒意识形态的国家和一个有着深深的官僚主义自我认识的国家的结合体。
So everything has to be somehow classified and put down on paper or in an Excel table.
因此，所有内容都必须以某种方式进行分类并记录在纸上或 Excel 表格中。
This resurgent totalitarianism in Russia, it's really focused on the bureaucracy.
俄罗斯极权主义的复兴，其真正的焦点是官僚机构。
The bureaucracy is its heart, its core.
官僚机构是它的心脏、它的核心。
And that's why lists are so important.
这就是为什么列表如此重要。
Are you on this list?
你在这个名单上吗？
M.
M。
Gessen I'm not.
格森 我不是。
I'm on a different list, a worse list.
我在另一个名单上，一个更糟糕的名单上。
What list is that?
那是什么名单？
M.
M。
Gessen I'm on the wanted list, because there's a criminal case against me.
格森 我在通缉名单上，因为有一桩针对我的刑事案件。
M says that being put on one of these lists throws you out of the normal world and into this weird, undefined limbo or purgatory, where things are different and more worrisome.
M 说，被列入这些名单之一会让你脱离正常的世界，进入这个奇怪的、不确定的地狱或炼狱，那里的事情是不同的，更令人担忧。
Because it's unclear what's going to happen next.
因为目前还不清楚接下来会发生什么。
What is clear is that it's a permanent status change.
显而易见的是，这是永久性的状态变化。
Our program today is about lists.
我们今天的节目是关于列表的。
And as part of that, we wanted to hear from people who are on a target list, about what it's like to live that disquieting life.
作为其中的一部分，我们想听听目标名单上的人的意见，了解那种令人不安的生活是什么样的。
And M agreed to reach out to some to talk about it and talk especially about what it's like to be on the foreign agent list.
M 同意联系一些人谈论此事，特别是谈论被列入外国特工名单的感觉。
The foreign agent list is interesting, because being on that list really can mean such a wide range of things.
外国代理人名单很有趣，因为出现在该名单上确实意味着很多事情。
Maybe it'll be nothing.
或许就什么都不会了。
Or maybe things will get a lot worse.
或者也许事情会变得更糟。
Here's what M put together.
这是 M 整理的内容。
I've been watching the foreign agent list grow for a few years.
几年来我一直在观察外国代理人名单的增长。
It's now about 400 people, most of them living outside of Russia.
现在约有 400 人，其中大多数居住在俄罗斯境外。
And I probably know half of them.
我可能认识其中一半。
That's one reason I've been sort of obsessed with the list.
这就是我对这份清单着迷的原因之一。
It's a day that changes your life.
这是改变你生活的一天。
I was cutting the turkey.
我正在切火鸡。
And I believe that I was in the midst of cutting my fourth turkey in a row.
我相信我正在连续切第四只火鸡。
This is Ilya, my friend who was put on the list the Friday after Thanksgiving.
这是伊利亚，我的朋友，感恩节后的星期五被列入名单。
Fourth turkey that weekend or fourth turkey that day?
那个周末的第四只火鸡还是那天的第四只火鸡？
Probably that weekend.
大概是那个周末。
And then I saw my wife coming to me.
然后我看到我的妻子向我走来。
And I realized that she was pale.
我发现她脸色苍白。
And I realized that something happened.
我意识到发生了一些事情。
And then she told me that I was declared a foreign agent.
然后她告诉我，我被宣布为外国特工。
Here's Galina Arapova's version of the experience of finding out she was on the list.
以下是加琳娜·阿拉波娃 (Galina Arapova) 讲述的发现自己在名单上的经历。
She's a media lawyer who was representing journalists who had been put on the list.
她是一名媒体律师，代表被列入名单的记者。
Then she was branded a foreign agent herself.
然后她自己就被贴上了外国特工的标签。
She was the first lawyer on the list.
她是名单上的第一位律师。
She found out when a reporter called to ask her about the implications.
当记者打电话询问她的影响时，她发现了这一点。
Believe it or not, for the first few seconds, I didn't realize that he is actually saying to me that my name appeared on the list.
不管你信不信，在最初的几秒钟里，我并没有意识到他实际上是在对我说我的名字出现在名单上。
I thought that he was asking me to provide a comment like what would happen, what if you appear on the list, how that would affect your life.
我以为他是在要求我提供评论，比如会发生什么，如果你出现在名单上会怎样，这会如何影响你的生活。
And then I just realized that it's actually not a hypothetical, that he's actually informing me that my name is on the list.
然后我才意识到这实际上不是一个假设，他实际上是在通知我我的名字在名单上。
Being put on the foreign agent list has consequences regardless of where the person lives.
无论该人居住在哪里，被列入外国特工名单都会产生后果。
And once the Russian government names you a foreign agent, you face a bunch of choices.
一旦俄罗斯政府将你指定为外国特工，你就会面临很多选择。
Because there are all sorts of special rules that apply to foreign agents.
因为有各种适用于外国代理人的特殊规则。
And you have to decide whether you're going to comply.
你必须决定是否要遵守。
One rule, every time you communicate anything publicly or semi-publicly in the media or in social media or in a dating app even, you have to warn people that they're dealing with a foreign agent.
一条规则是，每次你在媒体、社交媒体甚至约会应用程序中公开或半公开地交流任何内容时，你都必须警告人们他们正在与外国特工打交道。
There's a special disclaimer you have to use in extra large type.
有一个特殊的免责声明，您必须在超大字体中使用。
It's huge.
它是巨大的。
It has to be in font, in letters twice bigger than the main text.
它的字体必须是正文的两倍大。
Do you remember the exact words?
你还记得确切的单词吗？
You can say them in Russian if you want.
如果你愿意的话，你可以用俄语说出来。
The disclaimer says, this message or information was created and/or disseminated by a foreign agent, non-governmental organization.
免责声明称，此消息或信息是由外国代理人、非政府组织创建和/或传播的。
Which is quite a big paragraph, considering the size.
考虑到篇幅，这是一个相当大的段落。
In social media, it would be like in Caps Lock.
在社交媒体中，就像大写锁定一样。
And it gets more Byzantine.
它变得更加拜占庭式。
A person who has been put on the list must create a corporation.
被列入名单的人必须创建一家公司。
And the corporation, in the eyes of the state, is you.
在国家眼中，公司就是你。
And you are the corporation.
而你就是公司。
This corporation has to file quarterly financial reports detailing the income you make and the money you spend, submit to an annual audit, and also post regular reports of your activities, whatever that means, on the internet, or submit them to the media for publication.
该公司必须提交季度财务报告，详细说明您的收入和支出，提交年度审计，并定期在互联网上发布您的活动报告（无论这意味着什么），或将其提交给媒体进行发布。
The paperwork has to be perfect every time, but the rules are vague.
每次的文书工作都必须完美，但规则却很模糊。
So you can make mistakes easily.
所以你很容易犯错误。
And then if you made a mistake, here, government comes with a fine.
如果你犯了错误，政府就会处以罚款。
First fine, second fine, and then criminal case.
第一次罚款，第二次罚款，然后是刑事案件。
So it's all made as a big trap.
所以这一切都是一个大陷阱。
And all these games around it, it's like Tom and Jerry game.
所有围绕它的游戏，就像汤姆和杰瑞的游戏。
They are just running after us and we're trying to run away, trying to still do the job.
他们只是在追我们，而我们却试图逃跑，试图继续完成工作。
Galina follows the rules.
加琳娜遵守规则。
Most of her clients do, even if they're living outside of Russia.
她的大多数客户都这样做，即使他们居住在俄罗斯境外。
Because everyone has someone or something left behind-- family members that the authorities can decide to harass, property the authorities can seize.
因为每个人都有留下的人或东西——当局可以决定骚扰的家庭成员、当局可以扣押的财产。
My friend Karen decided not to follow the rules.
我的朋友凯伦决定不遵守规则。
He'd left Russia right after the full-scale invasion of Ukraine.
他在全面入侵乌克兰后立即离开俄罗斯。
And a couple of months later, his name popped up on the list.
几个月后，他的名字出现在名单上。
Like everyone, he still had a million things tying him to Russia.
和每个人一样，他还有一百万件事将他与俄罗斯联系在一起。
So I knew that I'm not going to play by those rules.
所以我知道我不会遵守这些规则。
And I decided to just get rid of everything I had back there, including my apartment.
我决定扔掉我在那里拥有的一切，包括我的公寓。
So you were thinking that now that you were on this list of foreign agents, your property in Russia was in danger and you should basically take money out of the country?
所以你在想，既然你在外国特工名单上，你在俄罗斯的财产就处于危险之中，你基本上应该把钱带出这个国家？
It felt like nothing.
感觉没什么。
I told myself, we don't go there.
我告诉自己，我们不去那里。
I mean, in that infinite depth of feelings about your country and everybody who you left there and stuff, it can drive you crazy.
我的意思是，对你的国家和你离开那里的每个人的无限深切的感情，它会让你发疯。
So I just didn't feel anything.
所以我只是没有任何感觉。
A little over a year later, Karen found out that he was on another list, the list of extremists and terrorists.
一年多后，凯伦发现自己在另一个名单上，即极端分子和恐怖分子名单。
This was, you could say, an upgrade.
可以说，这是一次升级。
It meant that the Russian state froze whatever assets he still had in Russia.
这意味着俄罗斯政府冻结了他在俄罗斯仍然拥有的所有资产。
So he'd been smart to sell his apartment.
所以他卖掉他的公寓是明智的。
But being on this list also meant they'd opened a criminal case against him.
但出现在这份名单上也意味着他们已经对他提起刑事诉讼。
Just to make this clear, he hadn't been informed that there was a case against him.
澄清一下，他没有被告知有针对他的案件。
Karen had to hire a lawyer to figure out what he was charged with and which prosecutor was charging him.
凯伦不得不聘请一名律师来弄清楚他被指控的罪名以及哪位检察官对他提出指控。
Karen and I have talked about this weird process of having to find your own case, because there's also a criminal case against me in Russia.
凯伦和我谈到了必须找到自己的案件的奇怪过程，因为俄罗斯也有一起针对我的刑事案件。
I found out about it from articles in Russian government media.
我是从俄罗斯政府媒体的文章中了解到这一点的。
And then my name appeared on the wanted list.
然后我的名字出现在通缉名单上。
In the hierarchy of lists, the wanted list is probably the worst-- that we know about anyway.
在列表的层次结构中，通缉名单可能是最糟糕的——无论如何我们都知道。
I've now been arrested in absentia, and in the next few months, a Moscow court is going to sentence me to 7 or 8 or 9 years in prison.
我现在已被缺席逮捕，在接下来的几个月里，莫斯科法院将判处我七年、八年或九年监禁。
It took my lawyer two months to find the case against me for, quote, "spreading false information about the Russian military." Karen said I was lucky.
我的律师花了两个月的时间才找到针对我的案件，引用“散布有关俄罗斯军方的虚假信息”。凯伦说我很幸运。
It took his lawyer six months to find his case.
他的律师花了六个月的时间才找到他的案子。
Karen's crime?
凯伦的罪行？
Years ago, Karen donated money to Alexei Navalny's anti-corruption foundation.
多年前，凯伦向阿列克谢·纳瓦尔尼的反腐败基金会捐款。
Navalny is the Russian politician who died in an Arctic prison earlier this year.
纳瓦尔尼是今年早些时候死于北极监狱的俄罗斯政治家。
And when did you give money to the Navalny organization?
你什么时候给纳瓦尔尼组织捐款的？
Do you remember?
你是否记得？
Well, for years.
嗯，多年来。
And that, of course, it was long before they labeled Navalny Foundation as illegal or extremist or anything else.
当然，很久之后他们才将纳瓦尔尼基金会标记为非法或极端主义或其他任何东西。
I was one of thousands of people, I believe, who supported Navalny and his foundation.
我相信，我是支持纳瓦尔尼及其基金会的数千人之一。
Do you have any idea how much money you gave them?
你知道你给了他们多少钱吗？
Not that much.
没那么多。
I believe a few hundred dollars total.
我相信总共有几百美元。
By the way, Alexei Navalny was also on the list of extremists and terrorists.
顺便说一句，阿列克谢·纳瓦尔尼也在极端分子和恐怖分子名单上。
He still is on that list, because the authorities say they haven't received proper documentation of his death.
他仍然在该名单上，因为当局表示他们尚未收到有关他死亡的适当文件。
Any contact with Russian state recently resembles more and more contact with hooligans back in elementary or middle school.
最近与俄罗斯政府的任何接触都越来越像小学或中学时与流氓的接触。
Bullies?
恶霸？
Karen Yeah, like with bullies.
凯伦 是的，就像恶霸一样。
This is a feeling that they are very strong, very hostile, and very-- [SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
这是一种他们非常强烈、非常敌对、非常--[俄语]的感觉
Small minded?
心胸狭隘？
Karen Yeah, strong, hostile, and small-minded, sort of feeling that they are like big, angry animal who is trying to attack you when they're scared of you, and who can kill you because they're scared of you.
凯伦 是的，坚强，充满敌意，心胸狭隘，感觉他们就像巨大而愤怒的动物，当他们害怕你时试图攻击你，并且因为害怕你而可以杀死你。
Let's just call this animal what it is.
我们就这样称呼这种动物吧。
You're describing a bear, a Russian bear.
你正在描述一只熊，一只俄罗斯熊。
With the Russian bear on your heels, you have to watch your step.
俄罗斯熊紧随其后，你必须小心脚步。
If you're going to travel, you have to ask, is it safe?
如果你要去旅行，你一定要问，安全吗？
Can I go there?
我可以去那里吗？
Ilya Krasilschik, a different Ilya, now divides all the countries in the world into three categories.
伊利亚·克拉西尔希克（Ilya Krasilschik），另一个伊利亚，现在将世界上所有国家分为三类。
Can't go, maybe can't go, can go with consequences.
不能去，也许不能去，可以去，后果自负。
Can go with consequences really means don't go.
可以承担后果实际上意味着不去。
You don't want the consequences.
你不想要后果。
Ilya started a media outlet called HelpDesk, which reports on the war in Ukraine and helps Ukrainians flee the fighting.
伊利亚创办了一家名为 HelpDesk 的媒体机构，专门报道乌克兰战争并帮助乌克兰人逃离战火。
In the eyes of the Russian state, he has been a criminal for more than two years for posting about war crimes in Bucha.
在俄罗斯政府眼中，他因在 Bucha 上发布有关战争罪行的帖子而在两年多的时间里已经成为罪犯。
I haven't been a criminal for as long as Ilya has, but I've also learned there's a whole convoluted science to it.
我当罪犯的时间不像伊利亚那么久，但我也了解到其中有一个复杂的科学原理。
Some countries will extradite people to Russia, some countries might.
有些国家会把人引渡到俄罗斯，有些国家可能会。
And then there's Interpol, the International police, which Russia tries to use to have people detained and sometimes extradited.
然后是国际刑警组织，即国际警察，俄罗斯试图利用它来拘留人员，有时甚至引渡人员。
The planning that goes into traveling to other countries can get very granular.
前往其他国家旅行的计划可能会非常细致。
Sometimes it's not about where you go, but about which company you're flying.
有时，重要的不是您要去哪里，而是您乘坐的是哪家公司的航班。
And this is really difficult.
这真的很难。
Because, for example, Turkish Airlines, if something will happen, they can land in Russia.
因为，比如说土耳其航空，如果有事的话，他们可以降落在俄罗斯。
Because they have this airport as the Plan B airport.
因为他们把这个机场作为B计划机场。
But you need to call every airline and ask them for every route.
但您需要致电每家航空公司并询问他们每条航线的信息。
And I think somebody should do this.
我认为应该有人这样做。
You could easily spend all your time, your entire life perfecting the act, being Jerry who keeps evading Tom.
你可以轻松地花费你所有的时间、你的一生来完善这一行为，成为不断躲避汤姆的杰瑞。
So it's absurd.
所以这是荒谬的。
And absurd should be fun.
荒谬应该是有趣的。
I don't know, like Kafka, yeah?
我不知道，就像卡夫卡一样，是吗？
Kafka is funny in some way, but it's also awful.
卡夫卡在某种程度上很有趣，但也很糟糕。
It used to be, when a friend was named a foreign agent, I would send them a note saying, proud to know you, like it was some sort of recognition.
过去，当一个朋友被任命为外国特工时，我会给他们发一张便条，上面写着“很荣幸认识你”，就像这是某种认可一样。
At some point, that stopped feeling right.
在某些时候，这种感觉不再正确了。
I didn't feel proud, not when my friends were put on a list and not when I landed on Russia's wanted list.
当我的朋友被列入名单时，当我被列入俄罗斯通缉名单时，我没有感到自豪。
When that happened, my friend Ilya, the one who was carving the turkeys at Thanksgiving, texted me, "I'm not sure what the protocol is.
当这种情况发生时，我的朋友伊利亚（Ilya），也就是在感恩节切火鸡的那个人，给我发短信说：“我不确定协议是什么。
Do I congratulate you or express condolences?" I felt sad.
我是向你表示祝贺还是表示哀悼？”我感到很难过。
Help me understand the sadness.
帮助我理解悲伤。
Because when I found out that there was a criminal case against me, and then later when I found out that I was arrested in absentia, in a sense, intellectually, it's almost exciting.
因为当我发现有一起针对我的刑事案件，然后当我发现我被缺席逮捕时，从某种意义上说，从理智上来说，这几乎是令人兴奋的。
And as people often say, it's a sort of recognition.
正如人们常说的，这是一种认可。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
M.
M。
Gessen And I felt profoundly sad.
格森和我感到非常悲伤。
I felt like I was carrying around another burden that hadn't been there before.
我感觉自己背负着另一种以前从未有过的负担。
What is it?
它是什么？
Oh, that's a good one.
哦，那是一件好事。
If I'm telling you something rude, if I'm telling you I hate you, it's OK to be sad about that.
如果我告诉你一些粗鲁的事情，如果我告诉你我恨你，那么为此感到难过是可以的。
Because it's sad that someone hates me.
因为有人讨厌我真是令人难过。
And when I'm saying that, well, I'm honored by that or they're stupid, I feel that this reaction's just shielding you from the sadness and tragedy of that.
当我这么说时，好吧，我对此感到荣幸，或者他们很愚蠢，我觉得这种反应只是让你免受悲伤和悲剧的影响。
The elephant in the room of my sadness is that being considered a criminal by the Russian state means I'll never be able to go home again, not even if there is a change of regime.
让我悲伤的是，被俄罗斯政府视为罪犯意味着我永远无法再回家，即使政权更迭也如此。
I doubt that the first, second, or even third thing they're going to do after Putin is purge all the lists.
我怀疑普京下台后他们要做的第一、第二甚至第三件事就是清除所有名单。
So like the vast majority of Russians who are on these lists, I'm in exile for life.
因此，就像这些名单上的绝大多数俄罗斯人一样，我终生流亡。
For many of us who live outside of Russia, this business of being on lists is really akin to having a troublesome chronic illness.
对于我们许多居住在俄罗斯境外的人来说，列入名单实际上就像患有一种麻烦的慢性病。
You keep tabs on it.
你密切关注它。
You modify your behavior as necessary.
您根据需要修改您的行为。
You hope it doesn't kill you.
你希望它不会杀了你。
But other than that, you live a relatively normal, American, or German or Dutch life.
但除此之外，你过着相对正常的美国、德国或荷兰生活。
For those who are still in Russia, though, the condition can be much more serious.
不过，对于那些仍在俄罗斯的人来说，情况可能要严重得多。
Zoya is one such person.
卓娅就是这样的人之一。
Zoya is not her real name.
佐娅不是她的真名。
She's an LGBT activist.
她是一名 LGBT 活动家。
And in November of last year, the Russian Supreme Court declared the, quote, "international LGBT movement was an extremist organization."
去年 11 月，俄罗斯最高法院宣布“国际 LGBT 运动是一个极端主义组织”。
Zoya had been put on lists even before that, though, internal lists circulated within government agencies.
不过，早在这之前，卓娅就已被列入名单，但内部名单在政府机构内部流传。
These lists aren't meant to be public, but there is an illicit service that will search different internal lists and databases and send you what they find-- like a Freedom of Information Act request, but fast, unredacted, and for sale.
这些列表并不意味着公开，但有一种非法服务会搜索不同的内部列表和数据库，并向您发送他们找到的内容——就像信息自由法案的请求一样，但速度很快，未经编辑，并且可以出售。
You can just pay a very small amount, like $30, and download everything what they have on you, including these informal lists that police create for their work.
你只需支付很少的费用，比如 30 美元，就可以下载他们拥有的所有内容，包括警方为他们的工作创建的这些非正式列表。
You will be able to see how this regime see you, what do they have on you.
你将能够看到这个政权如何看待你，他们对你有什么看法。
Do they follow your flights?
他们跟踪您的航班吗？
It's enough information.
这是足够的信息。
And what you get is an Excel document or PDF?
您得到的是 Excel 文档还是 PDF？
PDF Document.
PDF 文档。
M.
M。
Gessen On the PDF, the lists you're on are marked in red.
Gessen 在 PDF 中，您所在的列表以红色标记。
So her PDF said extremism and terrorism in red.
所以她的 PDF 中用红色表示极端主义和恐怖主义。
But again, this wasn't the public list of extremists and terrorists.
但同样，这不是极端分子和恐怖分子的公开名单。
Yeah, it's two different lists.
是的，这是两个不同的列表。
If it's possible, I will say it to you in Russian.
如果可以的话，我会用俄语对你说。
If you can translate it.
如果你能翻译一下的话。
M.
M。
Gessen So the reason you wanted to say it in Russian is not because you can't translate it, but because the word doesn't exist.
Gessen 所以你想用俄语说这个词的原因不是因为你无法翻译它，而是因为这个词不存在。
Yeah.
是的。
M.
M。
Gessen Right?
格森 对吗？
So it's like, if they added another suffix to the word suspect.
就像，如果他们在“嫌疑人”这个词上添加另一个后缀。
So it's closest to if they called you suspectable in extremism and suspectable in terrorism.
因此，这最接近于他们称您涉嫌极端主义和恐怖主义嫌疑。
Yes.
是的。
M.
M。
Gessen It's like this internal list is the draft of a list.
格森：这个内部清单就像是清单的草稿。
Eventually, Zoya will probably be brought up on charges.
最终，佐娅可能会受到指控。
She'll be the suspect in a made-up crime.
她将成为一起捏造犯罪的嫌疑人。
But for now, in draft form, she is merely suspectable.
但就目前而言，在选秀阶段，她只是值得怀疑。
Can you tell me why you were trying to buy this information?
您能告诉我您为什么要购买此信息吗？
I think it's for me to understand the reality around me.
我认为这对我来说是为了了解我周围的现实。
Because when you are inside country, you very often don't feel that it's risky to stay there.
因为当你在国内时，你通常不会觉得呆在那里有风险。
And when you get this information, you understand it now.
当您获得这些信息时，您现在就明白了。
You cannot be safe.
你不可能安全。
You have to be prepared every day that you could be arrested.
您必须每天做好可能被捕的准备。
They could come to your flat.
他们可能会来你的公寓。
And it's not a question will they come or not.
他们来或不来并不是问题。
They will.
他们会的。
Just the question is, when?
只是问题是，什么时候？
And will you have time to leave the country?
你有时间离开这个国家吗？
Will you have time to say goodbye for your parents or not?
你是否有时间向父母告别？
And what did Zoya do after finding out she was on this list of people who would eventually, probably be placed on the list of extremists and terrorists?
卓娅发现自己在这份最终可能被列入极端分子和恐怖分子名单的人名单中后，做了什么？
She cried.
她哭了。
She started making some plans for leaving the country someday.
她开始制定一些有一天离开这个国家的计划。
And she made one very practical plan for staying.
她制定了一项非常实用的留下来计划。
We bought a very good door.
我们买了一扇非常好的门。
And when I came to the shop, I asked a guy to recommend me a door, the best, the best when police will come and they want to break this door.
当我来到商店时，我请一个人给我推荐一扇门，最好的，最好的，当警察来时，他们想打破这扇门。
I need like 15 minutes, 20 minutes.
我需要15分钟，20分钟。
And they choose this door for me.
他们为我选择了这扇门。
This was the main criteria.
这是主要标准。
When you were buying the door, what did they think you needed it for?
当您购买这扇门时，他们认为您需要它做什么？
They thought that I'm a drug dealer.
他们以为我是毒贩
And the guy told me that, OK, you will have time to throw away to the toilet everything what you have.
那个人告诉我，好吧，你将有时间把你拥有的一切都扔进厕所。
I didn't explain them why I need this door.
我没有向他们解释为什么我需要这扇门。
I think that probably it's a more understandable reason for them.
我认为这对他们来说可能是一个更容易理解的原因。
Police usually come in the morning.
警察通常早上来。
Every evening before I'm going to sleep, I check the door, everything, all this, everything should be closed.
每天晚上睡觉前，我都会检查门，所有的东西，所有的东西，所有的东西都应该关上。
Because if not, then I will not have this 20 minutes.
因为如果没有的话，我就没有这20分钟了。
Three.
三。
M.
M。
Gessen And why do you need 20 minutes?
Gessen 为什么你需要 20 分钟？
I need to clean my computer and contacts.
我需要清理我的计算机和联系人。
Because if I will not do this, then all my friends will be in the risk.
因为如果我不这样做，那么我所有的朋友都会面临危险。
And also I have to fix my dog.
我还得修理我的狗。
My dog will protect me.
我的狗会保护我。
And they could shoot dog.
他们可以射杀狗。
So you have to put your dog in the other room?
所以你必须把你的狗放在另一个房间吗？
Yeah, in the bathroom.
是的，在浴室里。
And ask them-- and kindly ask them to not touch him.
并询问他们——并善意地要求他们不要碰他。
Zoya has many reasons to stay in Russia.
卓娅有很多理由留在俄罗斯。
Since her sister died of cancer several years ago, Zoya and Zoya's mother have together been raising Zoya's niece.
自从她的姐姐几年前因癌症去世后，卓娅和卓娅的母亲一起抚养卓娅的侄女。
Zoya's parents don't want to leave.
卓娅的父母不想离开。
Zoya's partner doesn't want to leave.
卓娅的搭档不想离开。
Most important, Zoya doesn't want to leave.
最重要的是，卓娅不想离开。
So she has decided that she will stay as long as she possibly can.
因此她决定尽可能长时间地留下来。
She believes the authorities will give her one final warning, something like leave the country now or go to jail, and then she'll leave.
她相信当局会给她最后一次警告，比如立即离开这个国家或入狱，然后她就会离开。
I'm not sure why she thinks there will be a warning.
我不确定她为什么认为会有警告。
When it comes to her niece, though, Zoya is sure that the girl should leave the country as soon as she is old enough.
不过，当谈到她的侄女时，佐娅确信这个女孩一旦足够大就应该离开这个国家。
I don't believe that she will have a future.
我不相信她会有未来。
I don't believe that life will be better in Russia.
我不相信俄罗斯的生活会更好。
I see now how many people support Putin in these elections and how people celebrate it.
我现在看到有多少人在这些选举中支持普京以及人们如何庆祝它。
And I wish all the best for my niece.
我祝愿我的侄女一切顺利。
I want her to live in a free country with the possibility to choose partners, work, opinion, everything.
我希望她生活在一个自由的国家，有机会选择伴侣、工作、观点等等。
What if I said all the same things to you?
如果我对你说同样的话怎么办？
It's good for someone that wish me all the best.
这对于一个祝我一切顺利的人来说是件好事。
But my niece, this is what I wish for her.
但我的侄女，这就是我对她的希望。
But of course, she will decide.
但当然，她会做出决定。
Just before we sat down for our interview, Zoya told me something that was still pretty new to her too.
就在我们坐下来接受采访之前，佐娅告诉我一些对她来说仍然很新鲜的事情。
She was pregnant.
她怀孕了。
I am in a huge crisis now.
我现在正处于巨大的危机之中。
Because today, all morning, I just cried.
因为今天整个早上我都在哭。
And I feel it how I start to care not about myself, but about the child.
我感觉到我开始不再关心自己，而是关心孩子。
It's like this child, when they're born, will already be in one of those lists.
就像这个孩子，当他们出生时，就已经在这些名单之一中了。
Hannah Arendt called bureaucracy the rule by nobody.
汉娜·阿伦特称官僚主义为无人统治。
Maybe that's why it feels so hopeless.
也许这就是为什么感觉如此绝望。
They label you an extremist or a foreign agent, and next thing you know, you're using those terms yourself to describe your life.
他们给你贴上极端分子或外国特工的标签，接下来你知道的，你自己就用这些术语来描述你的生活。
Because it is your life-- thinking about where you can go, what you can say in public, how you're being singled out by the Russian state can affect people you love, and how it can always, always get worse.
因为这是你的生活——思考你可以去哪里，你可以在公共场合说些什么，你被俄罗斯政府单独挑选出来会如何影响你所爱的人，以及事情如何总是变得更糟。
And you're never not going to think about it.
你永远不会不去想它。
M.
M。
Gessen is a staff writer at The New Yorker and the author of several books, most recently The Future is History.
格森是《纽约客》的特约撰稿人，也是多本书的作者，最近出版的一本是《未来即历史》。
This program was produced and edited by Nancy Updike and me.
该节目由南希·厄普代克和我制作和编辑。
Nancy also produced M.
南希还制作了M.
Gessen's story.
格森的故事。
People who put together today's show today include Michael Comite, Andrea López Cruzado, Aviva DeKornfeld, Bethel Habte, Cassie Howley, Seth Lind, Katherine Rae Mondo, Safiyah Riddle, Ryan Rumery, Alissa Shipp, Christopher Swetala, Marisa Robertson-Textor, and Matt Tierney.
今天节目的制作人包括 Michael Comite、Andrea López Cruzado、Aviva DeKornfeld、Bethel Habte、Cassie Howley、Seth Lind、Katherine Rae Mondo、Safiyah Riddle、Ryan Rumery、Alissa Shipp、Christopher Swetala、Marisa Robertson-Textor 和 Matt Tierney。
Our Managing Editor is Sarah Abdurrahman.
我们的总编辑是萨拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sarah Abdurrahman)。
And our Senior Editor is David Kestenbaum.
我们的高级编辑是 David Kestenbaum。
Our Executive Editor is Emanuele Berry.
我们的执行编辑是埃马努埃莱·贝里。
Special thanks today to Elijah Wallechinsky, Lika Kremer, Jinae West, Isaac Arnsdorf, and Martine Powers.
今天特别感谢 Elijah Wallechinsky、Lika Kremer、Jinae West、Isaac Arnsdorf 和 Martine Powers。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。
If you need something to listen to, you can stream our archive of over 800 episodes for absolutely free, thisamericanlife.org.
如果您需要听一些东西，您可以完全免费地播放我们的 800 多集档案，thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
How does he describe his own management style?
他如何描述自己的管理风格？
In a list with three main points.
在一个包含三个要点的列表中。
Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life.
艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 将于下周回归，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。