830: The Forever Trial - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #830 | May 17, 2024 830: The Forever Trial Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 830 集 | 2024 年 5 月 17 日 830：永远的审判 注：《This American Life》是为耳朵而生，旨在让人们听到。
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如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
序言：序言 来自 WBEZ 芝加哥的 Ira Glass，这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
If you heard our show last week, you know that we're doing something unusual for these two weeks.
如果您上周听过我们的节目，您就会知道这两周我们正在做一些不寻常的事情。
We're featuring stories about Guantánamo made by our colleagues at Serial.
我们精选了 Serial 同事制作的有关关塔那摩的故事。
And the one this week is really the one that killed me when I first heard it.
当我第一次听到这个消息时，这周的那个真的是让我丧命的。
It's about some of the very last people still at Guantánamo, five men who were accused of plotting the 9/11 attacks, the stories about their trial.
这是关于关塔那摩最后一批人的故事，他们是被指控策划 9/11 袭击的五名男子，以及他们受审的故事。
And as Sarah Koenig points out, of everything that's happened at Guantánamo, the trial of these five men is the one place that you would think we could get to some kind of justice.
正如萨拉·科尼格（Sarah Koenig）指出的那样，在关塔那摩发生的所有事情中，对这五人的审判是你认为我们可以伸张正义的地方。
And then, in this story, step by step and piece by piece, Sarah lays out why that seems so unlikely to happen.
然后，在这个故事中，莎拉一步步、一点一点地阐述了为什么这似乎不太可能发生。
The fact that these men were tortured in CIA black sites for years messes up their cases in all kinds of ways.
这些人多年来在中央情报局黑点遭受酷刑，这一事实在各个方面都使他们的案件变得混乱。
But that is just one of the problems in the cases.
但这只是案件中的问题之一。
And there's this one section of the story that I think is especially eye-opening, and that is the section where Sarah explains what's probably the best possible outcome we could hope for in these cases, and why, when that hits the news someday, if it ever happens, it's sure to be deeply misunderstood by lots of people, maybe by most people.
我认为故事中的这一节特别令人大开眼界，在这一节中，莎拉解释了在这些情况下我们可能希望得到的最好结果是什么，以及为什么当有一天这种情况成为新闻时，如果它真的发生了，它肯定会被很多人，也许是大多数人深深误解。
And so with that, I turn things over to Serial host Sarah Koenig.
就这样，我把事情交给了连续剧主持人莎拉·柯尼格。
Every couple of weeks, at the bland hour of 5:00 PM on a Tuesday, a group of people you've never heard of clicks into a Zoom meeting.
每隔几周，在周二下午 5:00 的平淡时刻，一群你从未听说过的人就会点击加入 Zoom 会议。
They're all family members of people who died on September 11th.
他们都是 9 月 11 日去世者的家人。
(SUBJECT) VICTIM FAMILY MEMBER 2: Hi, everyone.
（对象）受害人家属 2：大家好。
(SUBJECT) VICTIM FAMILY MEMBER 3: Hi, everybody.
（对象）受害人家属 3：大家好。
There's Colleen, a nurse practitioner in the Bronx, and Terry, a retired documentary filmmaker in Boston.
科琳是布朗克斯区的一名执业护士，特里是波士顿的一名退休纪录片制片人。
Dianne, in Savannah, a retired ordained minister.
黛安娜，萨凡纳，一位退休的牧师。
Valerie, who used to work in nonprofits and her omnipresent feline.
瓦莱丽（Valerie）曾经在非营利组织工作，她的猫无处不在。
Trying to get the cat's tail out of my face.
试图把猫尾巴从我脸上移开。
Hey there.
嘿。
Victim Family Member 3 (SUBJECT) VICTIM FAMILY MEMBER 3: Oh, Barry got a haircut.
受害人家庭成员 3（主题） 受害人家庭成员 3：哦，巴里理发了。
And Phyllis, in New York, a retired teacher, who recently turned 80.
纽约的菲利斯 (Phyllis) 是一位退休教师，最近刚满 80 岁。
(SUBJECT) VICTIM FAMILY MEMBER 4: You are not 80.
（对象）受害者家庭成员 4：你还不到 80 岁。
I know.
我知道。
I'm not.
我不是。
I'm not.
我不是。
Sarah Koenig They've known each other a long time, many of them for a decade or more, through career changes and new grandchildren and health troubles.
莎拉·科尼格（Sarah Koenig） 他们已经认识很久了，其中许多人认识了十年或更长时间，经历了职业转变、新孙子和健康问题。
(SUBJECT) VICTIM FAMILY MEMBER 5: Well, well, well, yeah.
（对象） 受害者家庭成员 5： 嗯，嗯，嗯，是的。
What would we do without each other, huh?
如果没有彼此我们会做什么，是吧？
The first meeting I sat in on, June of 2022, I assumed they'd be like a support group.
2022 年 6 月，我参加了第一次会议，我以为他们会像一个支持小组。
Instead, the topic that day was the physical and mental well-being of the five men accused of orchestrating the attacks that killed their relatives.
相反，那天的话题是被指控策划杀害亲人的五名男子的身心健康状况。
If the men don't get the death penalty-- there's a very real possibility they won't-- what should the men's punishment be?
如果这些人没有被判处死刑——他们很有可能不会——那么这些人应该受到什么惩罚？
(SUBJECT) VICTIM FAMILY MEMBER 7: I think we're hearing that the 9/11 defendants don't want to leave Guantánamo.
（主题）受害者家庭成员 7：我想我们听说 9/11 被告不想离开关塔那摩。
(SUBJECT) VICTIM FAMILY MEMBER 8: No, because they think they're going to Florence, Colorado, which is very uncomfortable or worse compared to Guantánamo.
（对象）受害者家庭成员 8：不，因为他们认为自己要去科罗拉多州的佛罗伦萨，那里比关塔那摩监狱非常不舒服，甚至更糟。
Florence, Colorado, is the site of a federal supermax prison.
科罗拉多州佛罗伦萨是一座联邦超级监狱所在地。
Unless you're a federal crime buff, I'm guessing you might not be able to name anyone incarcerated in Florence, Colorado.
除非您是联邦犯罪爱好者，否则我猜您可能无法说出科罗拉多州佛罗伦萨被监禁的任何人的名字。
These guys can.
这些人可以。
(SUBJECT) VICTIM FAMILY MEMBER 9: Moussaoui.
（主题）受害者家庭成员 9：穆萨维。
Moussaoui, Hanssen, Zernoff.
穆萨维、汉森、泽诺夫。
Victim Family Member 10 (SUBJECT) VICTIM FAMILY MEMBER 10: Kaczynski.
受害人家庭成员 10（主题） 受害人家庭成员 10：Kaczynski。
Ted Kaczynski.
特德·卡钦斯基。
Sarah Koenig That's Colleen.
莎拉·柯尼格 那是科琳。
She tells the group she'd be fine with Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the alleged mastermind of 9/11, ending up in a place like Florence.
她告诉大家，如果哈立德·谢赫·穆罕默德（Khalid Sheikh Mohammed）（据称是 9/11 的策划者）最终来到佛罗伦萨这样的地方，她不会介意。
She doesn't want him put to death or tortured, but solitary for the rest of his life would be OK with her.
她不希望他被处死或遭受酷刑，但她可以接受他的余生与世隔绝。
Valerie agrees.
瓦莱丽同意。
Others think Florence is too harsh.
其他人则认为弗洛伦斯太严厉了。
(SUBJECT) VICTIM FAMILY MEMBER 11: It's awful.
（对象）受害者家属 11：太糟糕了。
I think it's like being buried alive, in a sense.
我觉得从某种意义上来说，这就像被活埋一样。
You know?
你知道？
You're underground 23 hours a day with the light on in your cell, and you get an hour outside if you behave.
你每天 23 小时都在地下，牢房里的灯还开着，如果你表现得好，你还有一个小时的时间在外面。
It's a really inhuman place.
这实在是一个没人性的地方。
(SUBJECT) VICTIM FAMILY MEMBER 12: It's very, very strict, yeah.
（对象）受害者家庭成员 12：这是非常非常严格的，是的。
Everything about this call seemed upside down, that this group of people would care about a humane future for the 9/11 defendants, that the defendants might want to remain at Guantánamo, that the last people you'd think should be dealing with any of this end up dealing with all of this.
关于这个电话的一切似乎都是颠倒的，这群人会关心 9/11 被告的人道未来，被告可能想留在关塔那摩，你认为最不应该处理这一切的人最终会处理所有这一切。
And they weren't just doing a thought experiment here.
他们不只是在这里做一个思想实验。
Their positions matter.
他们的立场很重要。
Of the many family groups that formed after 9/11, this is the only one closely monitoring the trial of the 9/11 accused, the only one whose members travel to every court session held for the case.
在 9/11 事件后成立的众多家庭团体中，这是唯一一个密切关注 9/11 被告审判的团体，也是唯一一个其成员参加该案每次法庭开庭的团体。
Collectively, they've watched hundreds of hours of court proceedings, filed multiple amicus briefs.
他们总共观看了数百小时的法庭诉讼，提交了多份法庭之友陈述。
They research deeply, stake out common sense but often unpopular positions, and lobby aggressively for those positions.
他们进行深入研究，提出常识但往往不受欢迎的立场，并积极游说这些立场。
This group is called September 11 Families for Peaceful Tomorrows, after a Martin Luther King, Jr. quote-- "Wars are poor chisels for carving out peaceful tomorrows." All the members are peaceniks.
该组织被称为“9 月 11 日家庭和平明天”，源自马丁·路德·金的名言：“战争是凿出和平明天的糟糕凿子。”所有成员都是和平主义者。
That's what brought the original members together in the first place-- their opposition to the US bombing campaign in Afghanistan a month after the September 11 attacks.
这就是最初将最初的成员聚集在一起的原因——他们反对美国在 9 月 11 日袭击发生一个月后对阿富汗进行的轰炸行动。
And especially right then, spring of 2022, this group had some political juice.
尤其是在 2022 年春天，这个团体有一些政治影响力。
The 9/11 case was at a turning point.
9/11 事件正处于转折点。
It had been in pre-trial hearings for 10 years already, 10 years, of waiting for someone to be held responsible for the deaths of their family members.
预审听证会已经进行了十年，十年，等待有人对家人的死亡负责。
And now a solution was maybe in sight.
现在解决方案也许就在眼前。
Peaceful Tomorrows had long pushed for this, for an ending.
《和平的明天》长期以来一直在推动这个结局。
Liz, one of the younger members, tells the group she's a little conflicted.
莉兹是年轻成员之一，她告诉大家她有点矛盾。
She's always been for closing Guantánamo.
她一直支持关闭关塔那摩监狱。
It's been one of the group's steadfast positions-- close it.
这是该组织的坚定立场之一——关闭它。
But then she visited the base again recently, took in the whole clattering machine of the case, and now she's not sure.
但最近她再次访问了基地，看到了整个案件的机器，现在她不确定了。
Maybe it does make more sense for the 9/11 defendants to serve out their sentences at Guantánamo, to not close down the facility.
对于 9/11 事件的被告来说，在关塔那摩监狱服刑而不是关闭该设施也许确实更有意义。
It did make me question what closing it would mean and what all of this-- like, what's next?
这确实让我质疑关闭它意味着什么以及所有这一切——比如，接下来会发生什么？
What's next for us?
我们接下来要做什么？
What's next for the detainees, the attorneys?
被拘留者和律师下一步该怎么办？
And what does justice look like for us, but what does justice also look like for them?
对于我们来说，正义是什么样子？对于他们来说，正义又是什么样子呢？
Something that I never even thought that I would sit there and think about.
我从来没有想过我会坐在那里思考一些事情。
Like, I never in my life thought I would be concerned about five people who were responsible for [LAUGHS] doing what they did.
就像，我一生中从未想过我会担心五个负责[笑]所做事情的人。
I never thought that that would happen.
我从没想过会发生这样的事。
Liz was six years old when her father, a firefighter, was killed at the World Trade Center.
当莉兹六岁的时候，她的父亲是一名消防员，在世贸中心被杀。
And now here she was, 27, working as a city councilperson in her hometown, planning her wedding on the side, and on the side, side, trying to think through one of the most morally and legally complex criminal cases in American history.
现在，27 岁的她在家乡担任市议员，一边筹划自己的婚礼，一边努力思考美国历史上道德和法律上最复杂的刑事案件之一。
Most aspects of Guantánamo can fairly be described as perverse.
关塔那摩的大部分方面都可以用“反常”来形容。
To wit, we grabbed close to 800 men, flew them to Cuba, even though most of them were nobodies, low-level fighters at best.
也就是说，我们抓了近 800 人，将他们空运到古巴，尽管他们中的大多数都是无名小卒，充其量只是低级战士。
Some weren't our enemies at all, hadn't done anything against us.
有些人根本不是我们的敌人，没有对我们做过任何事。
Many of them we treated with a level of brutality that would have been illegal on US soil.
我们对他们中的许多人实施了一定程度的残酷对待，这在美国领土上是非法的。
The vast majority, more than 95%, we never charged with a crime.
绝大多数（超过 95%）我们从未被指控犯罪。
We'd shipped all these prisoners to Guantánamo without a solid plan for letting them back out.
我们把所有这些囚犯都运送到关塔那摩，却没有一个可靠的计划让他们回去。
Many people sat there for two, three, five years, and some 12 years, 14 years, 16 years.
很多人在那里坐了两年、三年、五年，也有的十二年、十四年、十六年。
We didn't know what to do with them.
我们不知道该怎么处理它们。
30 men are still held at Guantánamo.
关塔那摩仍有 30 名男子被关押。
Of those 30, half have been cleared for transfer, just sitting there.
在这 30 个人中，有一半已经获准转移，只是坐在那里。
But the one thing that at least seemed logical about Guantánamo was the 9/11 trial.
但关塔那摩事件至少看起来合乎逻辑的一件事是 9/11 审判。
The idea of it was clear-- we held in our custody the men we believed were behind the attacks that killed nearly 3,000 people in the United States and kicked off two decades of war.
这个想法很明确——我们拘留了那些我们认为是造成美国近 3,000 人死亡并拉开了二十年战争序幕的袭击事件幕后黑手。
If anyone was our enemy at Guantánamo, it was these men.
如果有人是我们在关塔那摩的敌人，那就是这些人。
If any justice was to be had, it was through this trial.
如果要伸张正义的话，那就是通过这次审判。
But once I looked at it carefully, I had a "gather 'round, everyone" feeling.
但仔细一看，却有一种“大家都围拢过来”的感觉。
Gather 'round, and get a load of this.
聚集在一起，把这个装满。
The 9/11 case, one of the most important cases in history, inspires a shocking question.
9/11 事件是历史上最重要的案件之一，它引发了一个令人震惊的问题。
Not how is it going to end, but will it end, ever?
不是它会如何结束，而是它会结束吗？
Colleen Kelly, the nurse practitioner, was my main guide for the 9/11 trial.
执业护士科琳·凯利 (Colleen Kelly) 是我在 9/11 试验中的主要指导。
So to explain it to you, I'm going to stick with her.
因此，为了向您解释这一点，我将坚持她。
Colleen's brother, Bill Kelly, died on September 11.
科琳的兄弟比尔·凯利 (Bill Kelly) 于 9 月 11 日去世。
He was 30 years old.
那年他30岁了。
He worked in finance, something e-trade.
他从事金融、电子贸易等领域的工作。
Colleen never fully understood.
科琳始终无法完全理解。
But she used to visit his fancy Bloomberg office.
但她曾经参观过他豪华的彭博办公室。
He'd visit Colleen in the Bronx, play with his niece and nephews.
他会去布朗克斯拜访科琳，和他的侄女和侄子一起玩耍。
On September 11th, Bill happened to be at the World Trade Center for a conference.
9月11日，比尔碰巧在世贸中心参加一个会议。
So it took a few hours before the family figured out he was in the building.
因此，家人花了几个小时才发现他在大楼里。
My parents, my mother in particular, had been calling me, like begging me to go to New York and look for Bill.
我的父母，尤其是我的母亲，一直在打电话给我，恳求我去纽约寻找比尔。
Around midnight, Colleen headed into Manhattan with a friend to look for Bill, and they performed the same impotent itinerary of hundreds of other family members in the shell-shocked city, walking, walking, emergency room to emergency room.
午夜时分，科琳和一位朋友前往曼哈顿寻找比尔，他们在这座饱受炮弹袭击的城市中进行了与其他数百名家庭成员相同的无力的行程，步行，步行，从急诊室到急诊室。
Colleen and her parents and her siblings populated a sudden demographic, which eventually would squeeze into a military acronym, VFMs, Victim Family Members.
科琳和她的父母以及她的兄弟姐妹突然成为了一个人口群体，最终形成了一个军事缩写词：VFM，受害者家庭成员。
They'd eventually get their own section of the airplane that flies down to Guantánamo, their own escorts and drivers on the base, their own curtained off seating area inside the gallery of the military court, their own press conferences.
他们最终将拥有自己的飞往关塔那摩的飞机部分、基地上自己的护送人员和司机、军事法庭画廊内自己的带窗帘的座位区、自己的新闻发布会。
All that was years away.
这一切都是几年后的事了。
In the moment, right after the attack, Colleen tried to find out what happened to her brother, not the general outlines.
就在袭击发生后的那一刻，科琳试图找出她哥哥发生了什么事，而不是大致轮廓。
She had to know exactly what happened.
她必须确切地知道发生了什么。
I became obsessed with understanding his last day.
我开始着迷于了解他的最后一天。
I want to know what my brother was thinking when he was trapped on the 106th floor.
我想知道我弟弟被困在106楼时在想什么。
I want to understand, was he panicked?
我想知道他是否惊慌失措？
Was he OK?
他还好吗？
Was he hopeful?
他有希望吗？
What was he thinking?
他在想什么？
Like, it became very, very important to me.
就像，它对我来说变得非常非常重要。
Like, give me everything.
就像，给我一切。
Give me everything right now.
现在就给我一切。
Like, I want to know everything.
就像，我想知道一切。
I don't know if Bill jumped.
我不知道比尔是否跳了起来。
I believe he did.
我相信他做到了。
I became obsessed with that question in the fall of 2001.
2001 年秋天，我开始对这个问题着迷。
She went about answering that question methodically, like a detective.
她像侦探一样有条不紊地回答这个问题。
Several weeks after 9/11, Colleen's family found out that Bill had sent BlackBerry messages to his boss at Bloomberg after the plane hit the North Tower.
9/11 事件发生几周后，科琳的家人发现比尔在飞机撞上北塔后向他在彭博社的老板发送了黑莓信息。
The last message Colleen saw was from 9:23 AM.
科琳看到的最后一条消息是上午 9 点 23 分。
There was a whole hour to go.
还有整整一个小时。
The North Tower didn't collapse until 10:28.
直到10时28分，北塔才倒塌。
Colleen fixated on that last hour, on Bill's last minutes.
科琳专注于比尔的最后一小时、最后几分钟。
Bloomberg also gave Colleen's family photos of Bill from that morning at Windows on the World.
布隆伯格还向科琳提供了当天早上在世界之窗拍摄的比尔的全家福。
It turned out they'd hired a photographer for the event, who'd left just before the building was hit.
原来他们为这次活动聘请了一名摄影师，但他在大楼被击中前离开了。
Colleen spoke with the photographer, studied her pictures.
科琳与摄影师交谈，研究她的照片。
In one of them, Bill's talking with a man Colleen didn't recognize, receding hairline, glasses.
其中一张照片中，比尔正在和一个科琳不认识的男人说话，他的发际线逐渐后移，戴着眼镜。
That spring, The New York Times published a big story, a tick-tock of the final 102 minutes of the towers.
那年春天，《纽约时报》发表了一篇大报道，讲述了双塔最后 102 分钟的故事。
Colleen examined the grainy, zoomed-in shot of people teeming at the blown-out windows.
科琳仔细观察了这张放大后的颗粒状照片，照片上人们挤在被炸毁的窗户前。
In one of them, she thought she recognized Bill.
在其中一张照片中，她认为自己认出了比尔。
So Colleen contacted that photographer, went to his studio in Lower Manhattan.
于是科琳联系了那位摄影师，去了他位于曼哈顿下城的工作室。
He gave her an enlarged print to take home.
他给了她一张放大的照片带回家。
She stared at it.
她盯着它。
Yes, it looks like Bill, she thought.
是的，它看起来像比尔，她想。
He's at an open window.
他站在一扇开着的窗户前。
She sees the back of his head.
她看到了他的后脑勺。
His arm is reaching across the vertical window frame, reaching out to another man, receding hairline, like the guy from the Bloomberg photo.
他的手臂伸过垂直的窗框，伸向另一个男人，发际线后移，就像彭博社照片中的那个人一样。
Maybe Bill knew him.
也许比尔认识他。
They're holding on to each other's arms.
他们握着彼此的手臂。
This photo is partly why Colleen thinks Bill jumped.
这张照片是科琳认为比尔跳下去的部分原因。
Also, they never found any remains of her brother while other bodies were recovered from the 106th floor.
此外，他们从未发现她哥哥的任何遗骸，而在 106 楼发现了其他尸体。
Eventually, Colleen was able, as she says, to let it let go.
最终，正如科琳所说，她能够放手。
She realized excavating Bill's last minutes was her way of trying to take away some of the pain and fear her brother must have felt, a way to absorb it into herself, which was impossible.
她意识到挖掘比尔的最后几分钟是她试图消除她哥哥一定感受到的一些痛苦和恐惧的一种方式，一种将其吸收到自己身上的方式，这是不可能的。
The energy Colleen put into tracking Bill's last hour, that ferocity for uncovering information and that fealty to facts, no matter how distressing, now multiply that 1,000 fold, and that's what Colleen has dedicated to the 9/11 trial.
科琳在追踪比尔的最后一小时所投入的精力、揭露信息的凶猛和对事实的忠诚，无论多么令人痛苦，现在都增加了 1,000 倍，这就是科琳为 9/11 审判所做的贡献。
She's been to Guantánamo well over a dozen times.
她去过关塔那摩已经十几次了。
If she can't watch the trial in person, she'll sometimes go to a remote viewing station at Fort Hamilton, an Army base near the Verrazano Bridge in Brooklyn.
如果她无法亲自观看审判，她有时会前往汉密尔顿堡的远程观看站，汉密尔顿堡是布鲁克林维拉扎诺桥附近的一个陆军基地。
When hearings aren't in session, which is most of the time, she calls up experts and attorneys to ask questions and talk strategy.
当听证会不开会时（大多数情况下），她会打电话给专家和律师提出问题并讨论策略。
Before I knew better, I'd thought the actual trial of the 9/11 accused might not matter all that much to Colleen.
在我了解得更清楚之前，我以为 9/11 被告的实际审判对科琳来说可能并不那么重要。
Five men languishing at Guantánamo, imprisoned for 20 years already, unlikely to ever be free.
五名男子在关塔那摩监狱受苦受难，已被监禁 20 年，永远不可能获得自由。
Why would a trial affect Colleen's life?
为什么审判会影响科琳的生活？
Her busy life, by the way.
顺便说一句，她的生活很忙碌。
She set me straight.
她让我直了心。
She did care.
她确实在意。
Oh, my God, yes.
哦，天哪，是的。
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
Hugely.
巨大的。
Because if Bill was killed on a street corner in Manhattan, where he lived, of course I would be at that trial every day when it came to a trial, you know?
因为如果比尔在他居住的曼哈顿的街角被杀，我当然会每天在审判时参加审判，你知道吗？
It's like, you want to know all the facts.
就像，你想知道所有的事实。
You want to know how this happened, who this person was, what went on, and have people be held accountable.
你想知道这件事是如何发生的、这个人是谁、发生了什么、并追究人们的责任。
So, yes, I was always really, really interested, both in the trial as a form of accountability, but also what the hell happened that day?
所以，是的，我一直非常非常感兴趣，既对审判作为一种问责形式感兴趣，又对那天到底发生了什么感兴趣？
Like, this sounds ridiculous that I'm saying this to you right now, 22 years later.
22 年后的今天，我对你说这句话，听起来很荒谬。
No one knows.
没有人知道。
How did Khalid Sheikh Mohammed do what he did?
哈立德·谢赫·穆罕默德是如何做到这一点的？
How did the hijackers get their money?
劫机者是如何拿到钱的？
How did they get on planes?
他们是怎么上飞机的？
Who knew what, when, how?
谁知道什么、什么时间、如何？
How are all these other guys, the other four men, how are they involved?
所有这些其他人，其他四个人，他们是如何参与其中的？
So I'm intensely, obsessively, wanting to know how this all happened.
所以我强烈地、着迷地想知道这一切是如何发生的。
And why?
为什么？
Don't you feel like you know why they did it?
难道你不觉得你知道他们为什么这么做吗？
No. I've been told by people who are not the five accused why they did it.
不。不是五名被告的人告诉我他们为什么这么做。
No, I don't know why they did it.
不，我不知道他们为什么这么做。
Yeah, it's just-- it's what I need.
是的，这就是——这就是我所需要的。
It's what I need.
这就是我需要的。
Keep in mind, Colleen has looked at everything she can get her hands on about how and why 9/11 happened-- government reports, statements by the 9/11 accused, books by prominent journalists.
请记住，科琳已经研究了她能得到的有关 9/11 发生的方式和原因的所有信息——政府报告、9/11 被告的声明、著名记者的书籍。
Most extraordinary to me, she spent years visiting a former member of the militant group Weather Underground in prison.
对我来说最不寻常的是，她花了数年时间去监狱探望激进组织“地下天气”的前成员。
She wanted to know what it felt like when your belief system carried you past natural boundaries to extreme violence.
她想知道当你的信仰体系让你超越自然界限走向极端暴力时，感觉如何。
But none of it satisfied her.
但这些都没有让她满意。
In this case, Colleen needs primary sources.
在这种情况下，科琳需要第一手资源。
She needs specific answers that are still locked inside these specific defendants.
她需要具体的答案，而这些答案仍然锁定在这些特定的被告体内。
The trial would unlock them.
审判将解锁他们。
That's what trials are for.
这就是试炼的目的。
The military commissions at Guantánamo were supposed to be our Nuremberg trials, when the Allied powers prosecuted Nazis and German leaders immediately following the Second World War.
关塔那摩的军事委员会被认为是我们的纽伦堡审判，当时盟军在第二次世界大战后立即起诉了纳粹和德国领导人。
The Nuremberg trials were huge, efficient, and by many measures, successful.
纽伦堡试验规模庞大、高效，而且从许多方面来看都是成功的。
They didn't fix the world, but they at least held racists and murderers to account, helped repair a broken continent, and reset a common morality that said war crimes, no matter how chaotic or horrific, would be adjudicated in a civilized court of law for all the world to see.
他们没有修复世界，但至少追究了种族主义者和杀人犯的责任，帮助修复了破碎的大陆，并重新树立了一种共同道德，即战争罪行，无论多么混乱或可怕，都将在文明的法庭上进行裁决，让全世界看到。
It's no wonder, then, that photos of the Nuremberg trial hung on the wall at the prosecution offices of the military commissions.
因此，军事委员会检察办公室的墙上挂着纽伦堡审判的照片也就不足为奇了。
Oh, whoa.
哦，哇。
What is that?
那是什么？
On Colleen Kelly's wall hung a handmade primer explaining the military commissions, the opposite of the Nuremberg trials in terms of efficiency and success.
科琳·凯利的墙上挂着一本手工制作的入门读物，解释了军事委员会的情况，在效率和成功方面与纽伦堡试验相反。
Wait, what?
等等，什么？
Just explain what I'm looking at.
只是解释一下我在看什么。
Behind her bedroom door was a waterfall of paper, giant presentation-sized sheets describing the special court created to try a handful of Guantanamo prisoners we charged with terrorism or war crimes.
她的卧室门后面堆满了纸张，巨大的演示文稿大小的纸张描述了为审判少数被我们指控犯有恐怖主义或战争罪的关塔那摩囚犯而设立的特别法庭。
The 9/11 case was meant to be the main event.
9/11 案件本来是重头戏。
This is really helpful because we all forget about the charges against the 9/11 accused.
这确实很有帮助，因为我们都忘记了对 9/11 被告的指控。
This document was for an explainer she did years ago.
这份文件是为她多年前所做的解释而写的。
But Colleen was keeping it here because so much time had passed since the 9/11 criminal case started, she sometimes forgets the basics.
但科琳一直把它留在这里，因为自 9/11 刑事案件开始以来已经过去了很长时间，她有时会忘记一些基本知识。
Also, I suspect, because the case has emulsified into her waking life so that she hardly noticed that an enormous handwritten record of judicial disappointment occupied physical and mental real estate in her bedroom, spitting distance from her pillow while she slept.
另外，我怀疑，因为这个案子已经融入了她清醒的生活，所以她几乎没有注意到，一份巨大的手写的司法失望记录占据了她卧室里的身心空间，在她睡觉时离她的枕头很远。
It's not good.
这不好。
Sarah Koenig You can age it by the judge Colleen listed on one of the sheets, Judge Pohl.
莎拉·科尼格（Sarah Koenig） 您可以由其中一张纸上列出的科琳法官波尔法官对它进行老化。
He lasted the first six years until 2018.
他坚持了前六年直到 2018 年。
Then came Judge Parella, who left after nine months.
然后是帕雷拉法官，九个月后离开。
Then Judge Cohen came in, pledging continuity, so important in a case of this magnitude.
然后科恩法官进来，保证连续性，这对于如此规模的案件来说非常重要。
Less than a year later, Cohen retired.
不到一年后，科恩退休了。
Then Judge Watkins stepped in temporarily until Judge Keane came aboard.
然后沃特金斯法官暂时介入，直到基恩法官上任。
Judge Keane lasted two weeks.
基恩法官持续了两周。
He had conflicts.
他有冲突。
Then Judge McCall, but McCall had been a judge for less than two years, which was against the rules.
然后是麦考尔法官，但麦考尔担任法官还不到两年，这是违反规定的。
So Judge Watkins stepped in temporarily again.
于是沃特金斯法官再次临时介入。
Then Judge Acosta babysat the case for a minute until Judge McCall came back once he had two years' experience under his belt.
然后阿科斯塔法官暂时照顾了这个案子，直到麦考尔法官在拥有两年经验后回来。
Judge McCall is the current judge on the 9/11 case.
麦考尔法官是 9/11 案件的现任法官。
He's announced he might or might not be retiring at the end of this year.
他宣布他可能会或可能不会在今年年底退休。
I know you're not following this.
我知道你没有关注这个。
That's the problem.
这就是问题所在。
No one can follow this.
没有人能够遵循这一点。
Like, no joke, on January 1st, I saw some friends that I haven't seen in a long time, and they know that I'm very active in this work.
不开玩笑，1 月 1 日，我见到了一些许久未见的朋友，他们知道我对这项工作非常积极。
And they asked what's going on.
他们问发生了什么事。
And I started to explain, and I see this is a guy who's a lawyer, and he's really smart and he's really engaged on issues of great importance around the globe.
我开始解释，我发现这是一个律师，他非常聪明，他真正致力于解决全球范围内非常重要的问题。
And I just see like, after a while, just glazes over.
我只是发现，过了一会儿，我就变得呆滞了。
Yeah, I was kind of bummed out.
是的，我有点沮丧。
Do you get this sense they don't believe you?
你有没有感觉到他们不相信你？
Like, they think you must not understand what's happening because it can't be that bad?
就像，他们认为你一定不明白发生了什么，因为事情不可能那么糟糕？
Or literally, it's just too complicated?
或者从字面上看，它太复杂了？
It's too complicated.
太复杂了。
It's too complicated.
太复杂了。
Because if you start to say something, you say a sentence, you realize you have to say another sentence to explain it.
因为如果你开始说某事，你说了一句话，你就会意识到你必须说另一句话来解释它。
Because there's no way-- there is no elevator pitch for this.
因为没有办法——没有电梯推销可以做到这一点。
No elevator pitch, OK.
没有电梯推销，好吧。
But how about we take the stairs, you and me, all the way to the top, and you lend me those-- I don't know-- seven minutes, and I'll spin you through this farkakte case and this farkakte court so you can understand the bind the 9/11 case is in right now.
但是，我们走楼梯，你和我，一直到山顶，然后你借给我——我不知道——七分钟，我会带你了解这个法卡克特案件和这个法卡克特法庭，这样你就可以了解 9/11 案件现在所处的困境。
After we captured the five defendants, the men we believed plotted and carried out the 9/11 attacks, we held them in CIA custody in black sites around the world, and we tortured them.
在我们抓获五名被告后，我们相信他们策划并实施了 9/11 袭击，我们将他们关押在中央情报局位于世界各地的黑人地点，并对他们施以酷刑。
After three, four years, we sent them to Guantánamo in September of 2006.
三、四年后，我们于 2006 年 9 月将他们送往关塔那摩。
A couple of false starts later, the men eventually were arraigned in May of 2012 at a military commission in Guantánamo Bay.
经过几次失败的尝试后，这些人最终于 2012 年 5 月在关塔那摩湾的一个军事委员会受到提审。
The five defendants were Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Walid bin Attash, Ramzi bin al-Shibh, Ammar al-Baluchi, and Mustafa al-Hawsawi.
五名被告分别是哈立德·谢赫·穆罕默德、瓦利德·本·阿塔什、拉姆齐·本·希卜、阿马尔·俾路支和穆斯塔法·豪萨维。
In the courtroom, they would each sit in a different row, one behind the other, in the order they appear on the charge sheet, KSM to Hawsawi.
在法庭上，他们每个人都会坐在不同的一排，按照他们在指控单上出现的顺序，从 KSM 到 Hawsawi。
So, how is this court different from all other courts?
那么，这个法院与其他法院有何不同？
And why doesn't it work?
为什么它不起作用？
Any normal lawyer hearing what I'm about to lay out here is probably going to be horrified or else think I must be mistaken.
任何普通律师听到我将要在这里阐述的内容可能都会感到震惊，或者认为我一定是弄错了。
I am not mistaken.
我没有看错。
Here we go.
开始了。
In normal criminal court, a defendant has a constitutional right to confront his accuser.
在普通刑事法庭上，被告享有宪法权利与原告对质。
So if I accuse you of assault, say, I have to come to court, take an oath, and testify in front of a judge or jury.
因此，如果我指控你殴打，我必须出庭，宣誓，并在法官或陪审团面前作证。
In the military commissions, they'll entertain a jacked-up form of hearsay evidence, which means an FBI agent can take the stand and say, years ago, I went to a police station in Yemen, and a Yemeni cop brought me some witnesses he had already interrogated.
在军事委员会中，他们会接受一种夸张的传闻证据，这意味着联邦调查局特工可以出庭说，几年前，我去了也门的一个警察局，一名也门警察给我带来了一些他已经审问过的证人。
And I talked to all of them, and I wrote down what they told me.
我与他们所有人交谈，并写下了他们告诉我的内容。
But those original Yemeni witnesses don't have to be called in or take an oath or answer any questions because the agents who spoke with them don't even know how to find them anymore.
但那些最初的也门证人不必被传唤或宣誓或回答任何问题，因为与他们交谈的特工甚至不知道如何找到他们。
The Yemenis' secondhand statements, made through an interpreter, mind you, can be allowed as evidence in the war court at Guantánamo.
请注意，也门人通过翻译做出的二手陈述可以在关塔那摩战争法庭作为证据。
And these aren't any old criminal cases.
这些并不是什么古老的刑事案件。
These are capital cases, death penalty cases.
这些是死刑案件、死刑案件。
As one former military defense attorney said to me, allowing that kind of hearsay, quote, "that would happen nowhere else.
正如一位前军事辩护律师对我说的那样，允许这种传闻，引用，“这种事在其他地方不会发生。
That's absolutely insane," unquote.
这绝对是疯狂的，”未引述。
Also, torture.
还有酷刑。
Statements derived from torture or cruel, inhumane, and degrading treatment cannot be used in federal court, period.
来自酷刑或残忍、不人道和有辱人格的待遇的陈述不能在联邦法院使用。
But in the military commissions, it's mushier.
但在军事委员会中，情况就更加混乱了。
Something I said while I was being tortured, you can't use that in an actual trial, but it's still in dispute whether the government could use my torture-derived statements in pretrial hearings or use something my neighbor said about me while he was being tortured.
我在遭受酷刑时说过的话，你不能在实际审判中使用它，但政府是否可以在审前听证会上使用我的酷刑陈述或使用我的邻居在遭受酷刑时对我说的话，仍然存在争议。
And-- and this is the central issue now-- they might be able to use at trial statements I made after I was tortured.
而且——这是现在的中心问题——他们也许可以在我遭受酷刑后所做的审判陈述中使用。
Also, all the classified stuff.
还有，所有机密的东西。
It is mind-boggling the profusion and confusion over what is classified.
机密内容之丰富和混乱令人难以置信。
In the military commissions, the accused isn't allowed to see all the evidence against him because classified, a ton of it.
在军事委员会中，被告不被允许看到所有对他不利的证据，因为大量证据是机密的。
And it's not just documents the defense can't see.
这不仅仅是辩方看不到的文件。
A large number of potential witnesses, people who worked in black sites, say, their identities are classified.
大量潜在证人，即在黑网站工作的人，说他们的身份是保密的。
The defense can't call them because they can't identify them.
辩方无法打电话给他们，因为他们无法识别他们的身份。
And if they do happen to know the name of a CIA employee, current or former, they aren't allowed to contact them directly.
如果他们碰巧知道中央情报局现任或前任雇员的姓名，他们也不能直接联系他们。
So those are some of the baked-in problems.
这些都是一些固有的问题。
Now, to the weirder stuff.
现在，谈谈更奇怪的事情。
The cases, from the outset, have continuously fended off, let's call it, interference, intrusion, infiltration-- spying, basically.
这些案件从一开始就不断地抵御，我们称之为干涉、入侵、渗透——基本上是间谍活动。
The first big incident that made the news was in 2013, just as the case was getting underway, the kill button incident.
第一个登上新闻的重大事件发生在2013年，当时案件正在审理中，即“杀戮按钮”事件。
One Monday afternoon in court, a lawyer for Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was talking about evidence from CIA black sites.
周一下午，在法庭上，哈立德·谢赫·穆罕默德的一名律师正在谈论来自中央情报局黑色网站的证据。
And when he said the word "secret," the CCTV feed from the courtroom cut off, meaning anyone watching from the spectators' gallery or remotely suddenly heard nothing.
当他说出“秘密”这个词时，法庭上的闭路电视转播被切断，这意味着任何在旁听席上或远处观看的人突然听不到任何声音。
White noise filled the speakers.
扬声器里充满了白噪声。
The judge and the security officer sitting to his right, they do have the ability to cut the feed to avoid classified spills.
法官和坐在他右边的安全官员确实有能力切断饲料以避免机密泄漏。
But in this instance, the judge hadn't pressed the button, and neither had the security officer.
但在这一次，法官没有按下按钮，保安人员也没有按下按钮。
Someone else, some external body had cut the feed, and the judge didn't know who and he was pissed.
其他人，某个外部机构切断了饲料，法官不知道是谁，他很生气。
All kinds of questions erupted then.
各种疑问随之而来。
Who was listening in?
谁在听？
What else could they hear?
他们还能听到什么？
Was this the CIA?
这是中央情报局吗？
Did the CIA just drown out information it didn't want anyone talking about?
中央情报局是否只是掩盖了它不想让任何人谈论的信息？
Who was in charge of this thing?
这件事到底是谁负责的？
Who was really in charge?
谁真正负责？
The kill button was only the beginning.
杀戮按钮只是一个开始。
In attorney-client meeting rooms, spaces that are supposed to be sacrosanct, they'd find hidden mics in the shape of phony smoke detectors, or else, hidden in the walls.
在律师与客户的会议室，这个被认为是神圣不可侵犯的空间，他们会发现隐藏的麦克风，其形状是假烟雾探测器，或者隐藏在墙壁中。
The FBI would pry inside a defense team, in one instance, turning a defense staffer into an informant.
联邦调查局会刺探辩护团队的内部情况，例如将一名辩护人员变成线人。
An interpreter assigned to the defense seemed to have had a previous job at a CIA black site.
一名分配给辩方的翻译似乎曾在中央情报局的一个黑色站点工作过。
So who is he really working for?
那么他真正为谁工作呢？
All this bugging and snooping, it was hard not to conclude, was an effort to undermine the cases, to keep evidence and documentation of what happened to the men in black sites from becoming public.
很难不得出这样的结论：所有这些窃听和窥探都是为了破坏案件，不让有关这些人在黑网站上发生的事情的证据和文件公之于众。
This is what the CIA feared-- and still fears-- secrets of the torture program becoming public.
这就是中央情报局所担心的——并且仍然担心——酷刑计划的秘密被公之于众。
The CIA didn't offer any comment about this when I contacted them.
当我联系中央情报局时，他们没有对此发表任何评论。
Torture has infected almost every aspect of the military commissions cases.
酷刑几乎渗透到军事委员会案件的各个方面。
It's why so much of the discovery is classified or not available at all.
这就是为什么如此多的发现是机密的或根本不可用的。
It's why the men's physical and mental health is a constant topic.
这就是为什么男性的身心健康是一个永恒的话题。
It's why fighting over admissibility of evidence in the 9/11 case is epic.
这就是为什么 9/11 案件中关于证据可采性的争论如此激烈。
It's why delays and breakdowns in the proceedings are legion.
这就是诉讼程序大量延误和中断的原因。
Every one of these problems-- the kill button, the hidden mics, the classification arguments, the medical issues, and countless, frequently ridiculous others that I do not have time in our journey here to name-- all of it has involved litigation that causes months or half a year or several years of delays.
这些问题中的每一个——终止按钮、隐藏的麦克风、分类争论、医疗问题，以及无数的、经常是荒谬的其他问题，我在我们的旅程中没有时间一一列举——所有这些都涉及诉讼，导致几个月、半年或几年的延误。
And that is how a case, which could have been-- I don't know about a slam dunk, but vastly easier, surely-- remember, KSM has admitted planning 9/11-- that this case is now entering its 13th year of pretrial hearings.
这就是一个案件的方式——我不知道这是否是一个灌篮，但肯定要容易得多——记住，KSM 已经承认策划了 9/11——这个案件现在进入了第 13 年的预审听证会。
Finally, last thing-- I promise-- appeals.
最后，我保证，最后一件事是呼吁。
Many, many legal experts who's looked at the 9/11 case agree that a verdict in this case cannot survive appeal, which likely, eventually, would end up in the Supreme Court.
许多研究过 9/11 案件的法律专家一致认为，该案的判决不能在上诉中继续存在，最终可能会上诉到最高法院。
In a statement to lawmakers, a Marine Brigadier General who served as chief defense counsel for the commissions wrote that the myriad defects mean that, quote, "There are literally so many significant grounds for potential reversible error that it is impossible to list them all," unquote.
在给立法者的一份声明中，一位担任委员会首席辩护律师的海军陆战队准将写道，无数的缺陷意味着，“潜在的可逆错误有太多重要的理由，不可能一一列举”，引用。
And appeals, of course, take their own sweet time.
当然，上诉也需要慢慢来。
The appeals could add another decade to this case, easily.
上诉很容易使此案再延长十年。
So for family members of victims of the 9/11 attacks, watching the military commissions has been like trailing a mirage.
因此，对于 9/11 袭击受害者的家属来说，观看军事委员会就像是在追寻海市蜃楼。
You can hear their mounting disillusion in the VFM press conferences from Guantánamo over the years.
多年来，你可以从关塔那摩举行的 VFM 新闻发布会上听到他们日益幻灭的声音。
At first, a lot of them, they thought it could work.
起初，他们中的很多人都认为这可行。
(SUBJECT) VICTIM FAMILY MEMBER 13: I'm very honored to be here and see how our justice system works and the transparency.
（主题）受害者家属 13：我很荣幸来到这里，亲眼目睹我们的司法系统如何运作以及透明度。
Because the world needs to see that.
因为世界需要看到这一点。
That's from a press conference in 2012, when the 9/11 defendants were arraigned.
这是 2012 年一次新闻发布会上的内容，当时 9/11 的被告被提审。
Two years later, you hear people start losing their patience.
两年后，你会听到人们开始失去耐心。
(SUBJECT) VICTIM FAMILY MEMBER 14: If we could feel we were moving somehow forward towards a resolution--
（主题）受害者家属 14：如果我们能感觉到我们正在朝着解决问题的方向前进——
This woman talked about how she'd been down in Guantánamo once before in 2009 and watched a mental competency hearing for one of the 9/11 defendants, Ramzi bin al-Shibh.
这位女士讲述了 2009 年她曾一度前往关塔那摩，并观看了 9/11 被告之一拉姆齐·本·希布 (Ramzi bin al-Shibh) 的精神能力听证会。
Now, it was 2014 and she was back, watching a mental competency hearing for one of the 9/11 defendants, Ramzi bin al-Shibh.
现在，时间是 2014 年，她回来了，观看 9/11 被告之一拉姆齐·本·希卜 (Ramzi bin al-Shibh) 的精神能力听证会。
(SUBJECT) VICTIM FAMILY MEMBER 14: But here we are standing in place, since 2009 to 2014, five years standing in place.
（主题）受害者家属 14：但我们就站在原地，从 2009 年到 2014 年，已经五年了。
And it's painful.
这很痛苦。
But I see--
但我看到——
(SUBJECT) VICTIM FAMILY MEMBER 15: And I don't think this is going to be resolved in my lifetime.
（对象）受害者家庭成员 15：我认为这个问题在我有生之年不会得到解决。
And that's really what I have to say.
这就是我要说的。
And it may sound negative, but I'm not negative with anybody here or any of the people here.
这听起来可能很消极，但我对这里的任何人或这里的任何人都不持消极态度。
It's just that I want justice done.
只是我想要正义得到伸张。
And I can't see light at the end of the tunnel yet.
我还看不到隧道尽头的曙光。
After 2017, prosecutors stopped meeting with the media.
2017年之后，检察官不再会见媒体。
For Peaceful Tomorrows members, Colleen told me 2017 was also the year they realized, oh, this is never going to work.
科琳告诉我，对于和平明天的成员来说，2017 年也是他们意识到，哦，这永远行不通的一年。
We've had it.
我们已经受够了。
Like, now we've had it.
就像，现在我们已经拥有了。
It's endless.
这是无止境的。
There's always something, and there's always going to be something.
总有一些东西，而且总会有一些东西。
That's when it's like, plea deals.
那时就像是认罪交易。
Plea deals.
认罪交易。
The prosecution was still insisting they could get this trial done, get guilty verdicts against the 9/11 defendants.
检方仍然坚称他们可以完成审判，对 9/11 被告做出有罪判决。
But Colleen and Terry and the group members had lost faith.
但科琳和特里以及小组成员失去了信心。
They could see clearly now, the military commission system was a failure.
他们现在看得很清楚，军委制度是失败的。
Forget about a trial.
忘记审判吧。
The only logical solution to ending this thing, to getting a conviction that would stick, to getting the answers they wanted-- plea deals.
结束这件事、获得持久的信念、得到他们想要的答案的唯一合乎逻辑的解决方案就是认罪协议。
Anyone could see that plea deals were the way to go, right?
任何人都可以看出认罪协议是一条出路，对吗？
That's after the break.
那是休息之后。
Indeed it is.
确实如此。
Coming up, other 9/11 families and how they feel about negotiating a plea deal with the alleged 9/11 planners.
接下来将介绍其他 9/11 家庭以及他们对与所谓的 9/11 策划者谈判认罪协议的感受。
Sarah Koenig comes back, from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.
当我们的节目继续进行时，莎拉·科尼格从芝加哥公共广播电台回来了。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program, The Forever Trial.
今天的节目是《永远的审判》。
We're playing the second of two stories that we're running from the new season of Serial, which is about Guantánamo.
我们正在播放新一季连续剧中两个故事中的第二个，该故事是关于关塔那摩的。
Sarah Koenig picks up where we left off before the break.
莎拉·柯尼格 (Sarah Koenig) 从我们中场休息前停下的地方继续。
The idea of a plea agreement was that if the government took the death penalty off the table, maybe the 9/11 defendants would plead guilty and give up their right to appeal.
认罪协议的想法是，如果政府不再考虑死刑，也许 9/11 的被告会认罪并放弃上诉的权利。
The case would be over.
案子就该结束了。
The plea would include an extensive, likely months-long, sentencing hearing, almost like its own trial.
抗辩将包括一次广泛的、可能长达数月的量刑听证会，几乎就像它自己的审判一样。
And such a hearing would include a stipulation of fact.
这样的听证会将包括事实规定。
This was key to Colleen, a stipulation of fact, a narrative in which each defendant would explain, with precision, exactly what they had done to make 9/11 happen and exactly why they had done it.
这是科琳的关键，是对事实的规定，是一种叙述，其中每个被告都会准确地解释他们到底做了什么导致 9/11 发生，以及他们为什么这么做。
And that's how, through a plea deal, Colleen could get the answers she needed.
这就是通过认罪协议，科琳可以获得她需要的答案的方式。
But a plea deal in the 9/11 case, for a lot of people, that's a tough sell.
但对于很多人来说，9/11 案件中的认罪协议很难接受。
Because it's the 9/11 case.
因为这是9/11事件。
It's emotional, and a plea deal sounds wrong, like the government's giving up or just doesn't care anymore.
这是情绪化的，认罪协议听起来是错误的，就像政府放弃了或者不再关心一样。
And no death penalty for the people responsible for 9/11?
9/11 的肇事者不会被判处死刑吗？
Why would anyone ever make a deal with these guys?
为什么有人会和这些家伙做交易？
That is an understandable response, especially if you have no idea how dysfunctional the court is.
这是一个可以理解的反应，特别是如果你不知道法院的功能有多失调的话。
And let's face it, very few people have clocked the ins and outs of the 9/11 case, including most politicians.
让我们面对现实吧，很少有人了解 9/11 案件的来龙去脉，包括大多数政客。
While President Trump was in office, a plea deal in the 9/11 case was a nonstarter.
特朗普总统在任期间，9/11 案件的认罪协议根本不可能达成。
Come 2021, though, a few remarkable things happened to shake up the military commissions.
然而，到了 2021 年，发生了一些引人注目的事情，震动了军事委员会。
First, the long-serving and forceful chief prosecutor, a general who'd been committed to a death penalty trial, announced he was retiring.
首先，长期任职、强势的首席检察官、一位曾被判处死刑的将军宣布退休。
His replacement, Colleen thought, might be more amenable to a plea.
科琳认为，他的继任者可能更容易接受请求。
Then came the sentencing hearing of Majid Khan.
接下来是马吉德·汗的量刑听证会。
The military jurors' response to hearing Majid Khan talk about being tortured, their recommendation for clemency, offered a clue as to how the jurors might react to the torture of the 9/11 defendants, one of whom, as a result of being sodomized in CIA custody, has to sit on a cushioned chair in court, and eventually underwent rectal repair surgery.
军事陪审员在听到马吉德·汗谈到遭受酷刑时的反应以及他们对宽大处理的建议，为陪审员可能如何应对 9/11 被告遭受的酷刑提供了线索，其中一名被告因在中央情报局拘留期间被鸡奸，不得不坐在法庭上的软垫椅子上，并最终接受了直肠修复手术。
In other words, even if prosecutors got a conviction at trial, they might not get a death sentence.
换句话说，即使检察官在审判中被定罪，他们也可能不会被判处死刑。
--watched in frustration as one judge after another has been replaced.
——沮丧地看着一位又一位法官被替换。
Soon after Majid Khan's sentencing, the Senate Judiciary Committee held a hearing, titled "Closing Guantánamo." The only victim family member who testified was Colleen.
马吉德汗被判刑后不久，参议院司法委员会举行了一场题为“关闭关塔那摩”的听证会。唯一出庭作证的受害者家属是科琳。
Her message was strong and sad.
她传达的信息强烈而悲伤。
Family members who wanted and needed this trial to happen, she said, had already waited too long.
她说，想要并需要进行这次审判的家庭成员已经等得太久了。
In May of 2012, I sat with my dear friend Rita Lazar, watching the arraignment of the 9/11 accused.
2012 年 5 月，我和我亲爱的朋友丽塔·拉扎尔 (Rita Lazar) 坐在一起，观看 9/11 被告的提审。
Rita's brother Abe died when he stayed behind to assist a disabled co-worker on the 27th floor of the North Tower.
丽塔 (Rita) 的弟弟阿部 (Abe) 在留在北塔 27 层协助一名残疾同事时死亡。
Rita is now deceased.
丽塔现已去世。
In 2017, I was on the plane to Guantánamo with Lee Hansen, the only 9/11 family member to be deposed in the pretrial hearings.
2017 年，我和李·汉森 (Lee Hansen) 一起飞往关塔那摩，他是唯一一位在审前听证会上被废黜的 9/11 家族成员。
Lee Hansen lost his son, his daughter-in-law, and his granddaughter on flight 175.
李·汉森 (Lee Hansen) 在 175 号航班上失去了儿子、儿媳和孙女。
Mr. Hansen is now deceased.
汉森先生现已去世。
In 2019, I was on a boat crossing Guantanamo Bay with Alice Hoagland, mother of flight 93 hero Mark Bingham.
2019 年，我和 93 号航班英雄马克·宾汉姆 (Mark Bingham) 的母亲爱丽丝·霍格兰 (Alice Hoagland) 一起乘船穿越关塔那摩湾。
Alice Hoagland is now deceased.
艾丽丝·霍格兰现已去世。
Colleen and her cohort had always been the hippie 9/11 group, anti-war, anti-violence, anti-Guantánamo.
科琳和她的同伴一直是嬉皮士 9/11 团体，反战、反暴力、反关塔那摩。
In the world of victims' family members, their views were squarely in the minority.
在受害者家属的世界里，他们的观点绝对是少数。
But now, two decades later, it seemed the national mood had shifted.
但二十年后的现在，全国情绪似乎发生了变化。
Vengefulness had dimmed, and Colleen was invited to the table.
复仇的情绪已经减弱，科琳被邀请到餐桌旁。
Five other people testified as well, non-hippies, conservatives, a couple people who'd been Guantánamo boosters back in the day, who'd helped design detainee policy and the military commissions under President Bush.
另外五人也作证，他们是非嬉皮士、保守派，还有几个人是当时关塔那摩的支持者，他们帮助设计了布什总统领导下的被拘留者政策和军事委员会。
And now nobody was arguing.
现在没有人争论了。
Plea deals-- it's the only way.
认罪交易——这是唯一的方法。
--Guantánamo Bay.
——关塔那摩湾。
I thank you again for your invitation and for your time and attention.
我再次感谢您的邀请以及您的时间和关注。
Thank you, general.
谢谢你，将军。
Sarah Koenig A few months after the Senate hearing in March of 2022, the newspaper announced prosecutors and defense attorneys were in talks.
莎拉·科尼格 (Sarah Koenig) 2022 年 3 月参议院听证会几个月后，该报宣布检察官和辩护律师正在进行谈判。
They were negotiating a plea deal in the 9/11 case-- finally.
他们终于在 9/11 案件中就认罪协议进行了谈判。
That same spring is when I started listening in on the Peaceful Tomorrows Zoom meetings.
同年春天，我开始收听和平明天 Zoom 会议。
Colleen and the rest of the group knew a plea agreement and sentencing would take some time.
科琳和该组织的其他成员知道认罪协议和量刑需要一些时间。
One attorney on the case estimated 18 months.
一名负责此案的律师估计需要 18 个月。
Their strategy was to stay cool, which the lawyers negotiating the deal had also recommended.
他们的策略是保持冷静，谈判该交易的律师也建议这样做。
Yes, the plea talks had been in the papers.
是的，认罪谈话已经上了报纸。
The news was out there.
新闻就在那里。
But still, they decided, let's not make a lot of noise, no big public push.
但他们仍然决定，我们不要发出太大的噪音，不要进行大规模的公开推动。
The risk of riling up opposition was too great.
激起反对的风险太大了。
This thing was so fragile politically, even minor blowback could snuff it out.
这件事在政治上是如此脆弱，即使是轻微的反弹也可能会扼杀它。
So, they'd lie low.
所以，他们会低调。
The meetings, though, were animated.
不过，会议气氛热烈。
The group worked on a list of questions they wanted the defendants to answer in the event of a sentencing, questions some of them have harbored since 2001.
该小组制定了一系列问题，希望被告在量刑时回答，其中一些人自 2001 年以来就一直怀有这些问题。
(SUBJECT) VICTIM FAMILY MEMBER 16: Who knew that there were 20 hijackers and how they were getting their tickets?
（主题）受害人家属 16：谁知道有 20 名劫机者以及他们是如何获得机票的？
They want to know, who was the financial mastermind?
他们想知道，谁是金融主谋？
Was it KSM's nephew, Ammar al-Baluchi?
是 KSM 的侄子 Ammar al-Baluchi 吗？
Did he communicate to so-and-so that he was making this transaction?
他是否与某某沟通过他正在进行这笔交易？
Is that maybe what you're more after?
这也许是你更追求的？
(SUBJECT) VICTIM FAMILY MEMBER 16: And what were they told about why the transaction was made?
（主题）受害者家庭成员 16：他们被告知进行交易的原因是什么？
The finances are a big topic with this group, not only because they want to understand the inner workings of the plot, but because they want to understand the relative guilt of the five defendants.
财务是这个群体的一个大话题，不仅因为他们想了解情节的内部运作，而且因为他们想了解五名被告的相对罪行。
Is Ammar al-Baluchi less culpable than his uncle, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, but more culpable than Mustafa al-Hawsawi?
阿马尔·俾路支是否比他的叔叔哈立德·谢赫·穆罕默德罪责较小，但比穆斯塔法·豪萨维罪责更大？
They passed their questions along to a defense attorney working on the 9/11 case, a defense attorney.
他们将问题转达给负责 9/11 案件的辩护律师。
At first, this surprised me, but they were talking to defense attorneys as much, if not more, than they were talking to prosecutors.
起初，这让我感到惊讶，但他们与辩护律师的交谈与与检察官的交谈一样多，甚至更多。
And then, they waited.
然后，他们等待着。
Six months passed.
六个月过去了。
Eight months.
八个月。
By December, nine months since the plea negotiations started.
到 12 月，认罪谈判开始已有九个月了。
Everyone was getting antsy.
每个人都变得焦躁起来。
(SUBJECT) VICTIM FAMILY MEMBER 16: So I just-- boy, this is beyond any kind of advocacy I've ever done before.
（主题）受害者家庭成员 16：所以我只是——天哪，这超出了我以前做过的任何类型的倡导。
Hearings in the 9/11 case were on hold while the prosecution and defense tried to work it out.
9/11 案件的听证会被搁置，检方和辩方试图解决这个问题。
They were supposed to agree on so-called policy principles by now, which is a dry term, but it was the meat of the deal.
他们现在应该就所谓的政策原则达成一致，这是一个干巴巴的术语，但它是协议的实质内容。
If the men pleaded guilty, what would they get in return?
如果这些人认罪，他们会得到什么回报？
The policy principles mostly had to do with the conditions of the men's imprisonment.
政策原则主要与这些人的监禁条件有关。
They wanted assurances that as long as they were in prison, they'd have a communal situation, like they have now-- the ability to eat together and pray together, no solitary confinement.
他们希望得到保证，只要他们在监狱里，他们就会有一个公共环境，就像他们现在一样——能够一起吃饭、一起祈祷，而不是单独监禁。
Also, they wanted proper, sustained treatment for their physical and psychological trauma caused by the torture, and the ability to communicate better with their families.
此外，他们希望酷刑造成的身心创伤能够得到适当、持续的治疗，并能够与家人更好地沟通。
For the plea to progress, the prosecution needed an answer from the Biden administration, whether they supported the policy principles.
为了取得进展，检方需要拜登政府给出答案，看他们是否支持政策原则。
But Biden wasn't saying anything at all.
但拜登什么也没说。
The one-year mark came and went.
一年的印记来了又去。
Now, it was March of 2023.
现在，已经是 2023 年 3 月了。
Still nothing.
还是什么都没有。
Valerie's cat was dying.
瓦莱丽的猫快要死了。
(SUBJECT) VICTIM FAMILY MEMBER 17: I'm so sorry.
（对象）受害者家属 17：我很抱歉。
When you pet him, you have to be so careful because he's all bones, you know?
当你抚摸他时，你必须非常小心，因为他都是骨头，你知道吗？
Liz's wedding was off.
莉兹的婚礼取消了。
She was now running for mayor.
她现在正在竞选市长。
Phyllis suggested maybe they take a breather, get some distance from all the discouragement.
菲利斯建议，也许他们可以喘口气，远离所有的沮丧。
J.
J。
Connell, a defense attorney, came to a meeting to give an update, which was no update on the deal, really, but he did have something to tell them.
康奈尔是一名辩护律师，他来参加一次会议以提供最新情况，实际上这并不是交易的最新情况，但他确实有话要告诉他们。
So I have now seen a draft of the proposed stipulation of facts, and it is extensive.
所以我现在看到了拟议的事实规定草案，而且内容很广泛。
It is 200 pages long.
它有 200 页长。
That's the document Colleen and the others are waiting for, the main thing they want from this plea.
这就是科琳和其他人正在等待的文件，也是他们希望从这次请求中得到的主要内容。
In the 200-page statement, J.'s client, Aamar al-Baluchi, had laid out his background, how he ended up in this situation at such a young age.
在这份长达 200 页的声明中，J. 的客户 Aamar al-Baluchi 阐述了他的背景，以及他为何在如此年轻的时候就陷入了这种境地。
Then he talks about 9/11.
然后他谈到了 9/11。
It's really a deep examination of who exactly did what in the plot around 9/11.
这确实是对 9/11 情节中谁到底做了什么的深入审视。
I mean, it's very detailed on that point.
我的意思是，在这一点上它非常详细。
Finally, there's a section about what happened to him in prison.
最后，还有一节讲述他在监狱里发生的事情。
So, this 200-page document really dives deep into, I think, basically any question that anyone would have.
因此，我认为这份 200 页的文档确实深入探讨了基本上任何人都会遇到的问题。
Liz has a "holy shit" look on her face.
莉兹脸上露出“天哪”的表情。
Later, she told me that's what she was feeling.
后来她告诉我这就是她的感受。
Holy shit.
天哪。
This information is out there.
这些信息就在那里。
And why do we not have it?
为什么我们没有呢？
One of the five defendants had answered their questions in a document they couldn't see-- not yet, not unless there was a plea.
五名被告之一在一份他们看不到的文件中回答了他们的问题——目前还没有，除非有认罪。
But it was something.
但它是某种东西。
And then, August of last year, the public suddenly woke up.
然后，去年八月，公众突然醒悟了。
It was the government who woke them, not peaceful tomorrows.
唤醒他们的是政府，而不是和平的明天。
The prosecution sent a letter to 9/11 victim family members, to a much wider group than usual, some of whom hadn't been contacted about this case in forever, letting them know the plea negotiations were happening and seeking their opinions or concerns.
检方向 9/11 受害者家属发出了一封信，致函范围比平常更广泛，其中一些人已经很久没有就本案与他们联系，让他们知道认罪谈判正在进行，并寻求他们的意见或担忧。
And oh, man, did they need an editor for this letter-- robotically matter of fact, lousy with acronyms.
哦，天哪，他们需要一位编辑来编辑这封信吗——事实上，这封信是机械式的，缩写词很糟糕。
Sure enough, nearly a year and a half after the plea negotiations had first been reported, a whole new crop of people did have opinions and concerns.
果然，在首次报道认罪谈判近一年半后，一批新的人确实提出了意见和担忧。
They called the prosecution office.
他们给检察院打了电话。
They called the press.
他们打电话给媒体。
They called Capitol Hill.
他们打电话给国会山。
The AP ran a story.
美联社报道了一个故事。
Plea negotiations could mean no 9/11 defendants face the death penalty, the US tells families.
美国告诉家属，认罪谈判可能意味着 9/11 被告不会面临死刑。
Conservatives made immediate hay.
保守派立即大干一场。
Ted Cruz took to his podcast.
特德·克鲁兹开始收听他的播客。
This story is absolutely outrageous.
这个故事绝对令人愤慨。
And I think everyone hearing it should be shocked and should be furious.
我认为每个听到这个消息的人都应该感到震惊并且应该感到愤怒。
I feel like the Biden administration should order them not to accept this plea deal.
我觉得拜登政府应该命令他们不要接受这项认罪协议。
More than 2,000 victim family members wrote an open letter to the president, protesting the plea deal.
2000多名受害者家属给总统写了一封公开信，抗议认罪协议。
Peaceful Tomorrows members were feeling like, ugh, if they could just gather all the family members in the same room and explain everything they knew about how broken the military commissions were, maybe the others would see they were never going to get a trial or the death penalty.
和平明天的成员们感觉，呃，如果他们能把所有家庭成员聚集在同一个房间里，解释他们所知道的关于军事委员会有多么糟糕的一切，也许其他人会发现他们永远不会受到审判或死刑。
If they wanted answers or any shred of accountability, a plea deal was the best they could hope for.
如果他们想要答案或任何责任，认罪协议是他们最希望得到的。
Within a couple of weeks, President Biden broke his silence regarding the plea deals.
几周之内，拜登总统打破了对认罪协议的沉默。
Well, he never said anything publicly, but a line in a prosecution court filing said the Biden administration declined the so-called policy principles.
嗯，他从未公开说过任何话，但检方提交的文件中有一句话称，拜登政府拒绝了所谓的政策原则。
Biden was not on board.
拜登并不在船上。
He would not support an assurance of no solitary confinement or an assurance of torture rehabilitation.
他不支持保证不单独监禁或保证酷刑康复。
For the past year and a half, no one had seemed clear on what role the White House was playing in these unprecedented plea negotiations, in this unprecedented criminal case, in this unprecedented court.
在过去的一年半里，似乎没有人清楚白宫在这些史无前例的认罪谈判中、在这起史无前例的刑事案件中、在这个史无前例的法庭中扮演什么角色。
Maybe the president really disagreed with the terms of the deal, or maybe, in September of 2023, it just came down to realpolitik.
也许总统真的不同意该协议的条款，或者也许在 2023 年 9 月，这只是出于现实政治。
He's coming up on an election.
他即将参加选举。
And perhaps the mother of all bad Guantánamo headlines is the one that says you're negotiating sleeping arrangements and therapy with Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the man who claimed to have beheaded Daniel Pearl and orchestrated the most devastating terror attack in modern history.
也许关塔那摩所有糟糕头条新闻的源头就是你正在与哈立德·谢赫·穆罕默德谈判睡眠安排和治疗，他声称斩首了丹尼尔·珀尔并策划了现代历史上最具毁灭性的恐怖袭击。
So.
所以。
I kept thinking about Colleen.
我一直在想科琳。
How on Earth did she have the stamina for this?
她到底哪有这个体力？
I would have given up years ago, probably a decade ago, found some way to talk myself out of caring anymore.
几年前，也许十年前，我就会放弃，找到一些方法来说服自己不再关心。
I'd asked her, was that the hardest part, just staying with it?
我问她，坚持下去是最困难的部分吗？
Because I'm so stubborn.
因为我就是这么固执。
Seriously.
严重地。
Being stubborn.
固执。
Like, I am not going to let their failure be mine as well.
就像，我不会让他们的失败也成为我的失败。
I am sticking with this.
我坚持这一点。
I'm not giving up until this ends some way, somehow.
我不会放弃，直到这一切以某种方式结束。
I'm not.
我不是。
I'm not giving up.
我不会放弃。
And so Colleen headed down to Guantánamo.
于是科琳前往关塔那摩。
Because of the plea negotiations, and before that, COVID, the 9/11 case hadn't seen much court action since 2019.
由于认罪谈判，以及在此之前的新冠疫情，自 2019 年以来，9/11 案件并未出现太多法庭诉讼。
Now, September of 2023, the whole enterprise cranked back up again.
现在，2023 年 9 月，整个企业再次恢复活力。
For the 9/11 case, that's five teams of roughly 20 people per team-- lawyers and interpreters and analysts-- then the judge and his staff, plus observers and reporters and their minders and escorts.
对于 9/11 案件，有五个小组，每组大约 20 人——律师、口译员和分析师——然后是法官和他的工作人员，再加上观察员和记者以及他们的监护人和护送人员。
Maybe 150 people heaving themselves to Cuba, including Colleen.
大约有 150 人前往古巴，其中包括科琳。
I traveled alongside Colleen.
我和科琳一起旅行。
She hadn't been to Guantánamo for 3 and 1/2 years.
她已经有 3 又 1/2 年没有去过关塔那摩监狱了。
She was in a brighter mood than I expected At the hotel, she joked that the complimentary laundry pods in her room might be listening devices.
在酒店，她的心情比我想象的要愉快，她开玩笑说她房间里的免费洗衣盒可能是监听设备。
It would be.
这将是。
All thrown in the washer, and that's what activates it to send the--
所有的东西都扔进洗衣机，这就是激活它发送——
I didn't see Colleen all that much during the week.
这周我没怎么见到科琳。
At Guantánamo, the VFMs are closely guarded and protected, mostly in an effort to keep media away from them.
在关塔那摩，VFM 受到严密看守和保护，主要是为了不让媒体接触到他们。
So it felt almost illegal to seek her out.
所以去找她几乎是违法的。
In the courtroom gallery, we'd nod to each other self-consciously as I walked by the VFM section to get to my seat.
在法庭旁听席上，当我经过 VFM 区走向座位时，我们会下意识地互相点头。
It was a strange split-screen experience to watch this pretrial hearing, knowing, or at least strongly believing, none of this is leading to an actual verdict.
观看这次审前听证会是一种奇怪的分屏体验，因为我知道，或者至少坚信，这一切都不会导致实际的判决。
But also, it's court.
而且，这是法庭。
So it's interesting, people arguing passionately about secrecy and the Constitution, witnesses testifying nervously or testily.
所以这很有趣，人们激烈地争论保密和宪法，证人紧张或暴躁地作证。
Within the larger narrative of inaction, there's a lot of action.
在更大的不作为叙述中，有很多行动。
This week's hearing, they were dealing with the crux of the case, whether statements the defendants made in 2007 after they got to Guantánamo and were no longer in CIA custody, whether those statements could be used as evidence at trial.
本周的听证会，他们讨论的是案件的症结所在：被告在2007年到达关塔那摩、不再被中央情报局羁押后所做的陈述是否可以作为审判时的证据。
The statements, which are critical to the prosecution, are known as the "clean team statements," since they were taken by teams of government investigators who were not CIA and were not, the government argues, using any form of coercion.
这些对起诉至关重要的声明被称为“干净团队声明”，因为这些声明是由非中央情报局的政府调查人员团队获取的，政府辩称，他们没有使用任何形式的胁迫。
The defense wants the clean team statements thrown out, arguing, among other reasons, that they are tainted, a backdoor way for torture-derived evidence to enter the trial, and that the interviews were not truly voluntary.
辩方希望将干净的团队声明扔掉，理由之一是这些声明受到了污染，是通过酷刑获得的证据进入审判的后门方式，而且面谈并不是真正自愿的。
Not to mention that the men were never sufficiently informed of their rights in these interviews or allowed a lawyer.
更不用说这些人在这些面谈中从未充分了解自己的权利，也没有被允许聘请律师。
The fight over whether to suppress these statements has been going on, you will be shocked to learn, for many years in many different forms.
你会惊讶地发现，关于是否压制这些言论的争论多年来一直以多种不同的形式进行。
The week we were there, the excitement was that former FBI agent Frank Pellegrino was going to be testifying, the agent who took a clean statement from Khalid Sheikh Mohammed at Guantanamo.
我们在那里的那一周，令人兴奋的是前联邦调查局特工弗兰克·佩莱格里诺将出庭作证，他从关塔那摩的哈立德·谢赫·穆罕默德那里得到了一份干净的声明。
He'd been after KSM for years prior to September 11th, probably knew more about him than anyone in law enforcement.
在 9 月 11 日之前，他已经追捕 KSM 多年，可能比执法部门的任何人都更了解他。
Pellegrino's testimony seemed great for the prosecution.
佩莱格里诺的证词似乎对检方很有帮助。
He came across as credible, said KSM answered his questions voluntarily, that he even cracked a joke or two.
他给人的印象是可信的，说 KSM 自愿回答了他的问题，甚至还讲了一两个笑话。
But Pellegrino also seemed restive with anger at the position the CIA had put him and other FBI agents in because of the black sites and the torture.
但佩莱格里诺似乎也对中央情报局因黑网站和酷刑而将他和其他联邦调查局特工置于的位置感到愤怒。
Under questioning, Pellegrino said, quote, "I think that the whole thing from the beginning was a flaming bag of crap that we got stuck with," unquote.
在接受质询时，佩莱格里诺说道，“我认为整件事从一开始就是一袋燃烧的垃圾，我们被困住了，”未引述。
One defense attorney told me it was the first time a witness had said something so plainly critical of the torture program since the proceedings began a dozen years ago.
一位辩护律师告诉我，自十几年前诉讼程序开始以来，这是第一次有证人对酷刑计划提出如此明确的批评。
A couple other significant things had happened, too-- hugely significant.
还发生了其他一些重要的事情——非常重要。
The week before, the judge had severed Ramzi bin al-Shibh from the 9/11 case, deciding, after about a decade of litigation, that he was mentally incompetent to aid in his own defense.
一周前，法官将拉姆齐·本·希卜与 9/11 案件断绝关系，经过大约十年的诉讼，法官判定他精神上无能力协助自己辩护。
Ramzi bin al-Shibh is generally considered the second most culpable of the five defendants, sort of like KSM's deputy.
Ramzi bin al-Shibh 通常被认为是五名被告中罪名第二的，有点像 KSM 的副手。
The other major news was that a month earlier, a judge in the other death penalty case before the military commissions against the Saudi man accused of orchestrating the deadly bombing of the USS Cole in 2000, that judge threw out the clean team statements in the Cole case, saying they were tainted by torture.
另一个重大新闻是，一个月前，军事委员会审理另一起针对沙特男子的死刑案件的法官，该男子被指控策划了2000年科尔号航空母舰的致命爆炸事件，该法官驳回了科尔案件中的干净团队声明，称这些声明受到了酷刑的玷污。
These developments seemed to me to point in the direction of plea deals.
在我看来，这些进展似乎指向认罪协议的方向。
The 9/11 case seemed like it was disintegrating.
9/11事件似乎正在瓦解。
I'd come down to Guantánamo thinking the plea deals were dead.
我来到关塔那摩，以为认罪协议已经死了。
But everyone was saying they're not.
但每个人都说他们不是。
Really, they're not.
真的，他们不是。
We just have to find a different way to get them done.
我们只需要找到一种不同的方法来完成它们。
J.
J。
Connell told reporters, the plea deals are sleeping.
康奈尔告诉记者，认罪协议正在休眠中。
Not in a coma-- sleeping.
不是昏迷——睡着了。
Right now, the feels like temperature, which I think is accurate, is 98 degrees.
现在，我认为准确的感觉温度是98度。
Most evenings, a bunch of us reporters hang out on outdoor couches in the hotel's courtyard.
大多数晚上，我们一群记者都会在酒店庭院的户外沙发上闲逛。
Contract workers often sit at the tables nearby, everybody drinking, while the leggy stray cats of Guantánamo dart around the edges of the patio.
合同工经常坐在附近的桌子旁，每个人都在喝酒，而关塔那摩的长腿流浪猫则在庭院边缘飞来飞去。
Colleen came to join us a couple of times to talk about the case and also to reminisce.
科琳几次来和我们一起谈论案件并回忆往事。
She's known most of these reporters for years.
这些记者中的大多数她都认识很多年了。
A few of them were on a flight to Guantánamo so notoriously terrifying that people still talk about it.
其中一些人在飞往关塔那摩的航班上，这件事是出了名的可怕，以至于人们至今仍在谈论它。
I had taken a lot of Ativan, and I went and sat next to you and said-- I'm like, tell me everything you know about Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.
我服用了很多 Ativan，然后我走到你旁边坐下说——我想，告诉我你所知道的关于 Khalid Sheikh Mohammed 的一切。
And I took, like, three sentences of notes, and then I trailed off, I guess.
我记下了三句话笔记，然后我想我的声音就减弱了。
I don't know.
我不知道。
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
What year was that?
那是哪一年？
Sarah Koenig I'm not a war reporter, but I imagine this is sort of what it's like after hours, minus the danger-- people thrown together, trying to make sense of a protracted battle.
莎拉·柯尼格：我不是一名战地记者，但我想这就是下班后的样子，除了危险之外——人们聚集在一起，试图理解一场旷日持久的战斗。
The so-called war on terror has been enormous, global, and yet, sitting here, it can feel like the whole thing is funneled down to this small klatch of people-- reporters, victims, attorneys, soldiers, drinking in the courtyard of the Navy Gateway Inn and Suites.
所谓的反恐战争是规模巨大的、全球性的，然而，坐在这里，感觉整个事情都集中到了一小群人身上——记者、受害者、律师、士兵，在海军门户酒店的庭院里喝酒。
We start talking about how this case ends.
我们开始讨论这个案子如何结束。
Plea deals, John Ryan from LawDragon says.
LawDragon 的约翰·瑞安 (John Ryan) 表示，认罪协议。
100%.
100%。
Terry McDermott, who co-wrote The Hunt for KSM, agrees-- there's never going to be a trial.
《追捕 KSM》的合著者特里·麦克德莫特 (Terry McDermott) 也同意这一观点——永远不会有审判。
Carol Rosenberg of The New York Times thinks maybe an abatement could happen.
《纽约时报》的卡罗尔·罗森伯格认为也许会出现减排。
That at some point, the judge might say, OK, government, if you won't produce CIA witnesses, then I'm going to pull the plug.
在某些时候，法官可能会说，好吧，政府，如果你不提供中情局证人，那么我就会终止。
Everybody go home until you're ready to make this a fair trial, which could mean no resolution at all.
每个人都回家，直到你准备好让这成为一次公平的审判，这可能意味着根本没有解决方案。
One night, J.
一天晚上，J.
Connell, the defense attorney, turns up.
辩护律师康奈尔出现。
He's wearing shorts and sandals, a brace on his ankle from an injury sustained in spin class.
他穿着短裤和凉鞋，脚踝上戴着在动感单车课上受伤的支架。
He grabs a club soda.
他抓起一杯苏打水。
I ask him, all these things that are happening-- the decision to sever Ramzi bin al-Shibh, the USS Cole judge's ruling on the clean team statements, the flaming pile of crap-- does it feel like this case might be crumbling in the defense's favor?
我问他，所有这些正在发生的事情——切断拉姆齐·本·希布的决定、科尔号法官对干净团队声明的裁决、一堆燃烧的垃圾——是否感觉这个案子可能会以对辩方有利的方式崩溃？
He says, look, I know you've been down here before.
他说，听着，我知道你以前来过这里。
And there's this temptation to feel like I've come at a pivotal moment, and something important is happening.
我很容易觉得自己来到了一个关键时刻，有一些重要的事情正在发生。
But this is our 47th hearing?
但这是我们的第 47 次听证会？
And they've all felt like that.
他们都有过这样的感觉。
Like, I always feel like if it were a boxing match, we'd have won every round on points.
就像，我总觉得如果这是一场拳击比赛，我们会赢得每一轮的积分。
But what does that matter?
但这有什么关系呢？
There's no tallying up of points.
没有积分。
There's no points.
没有积分了
And so, we'll come back in November, and then we'll come back again in February, and we'll come back and back and back and back.
因此，我们将在 11 月回来，然后在 2 月再次回来，我们会回来、回来、回来、回来。
J.'s been on this case full-time since 2011.
J. 自 2011 年以来一直全职处理此案。
J.
J。
believes in the rightness of his mission, that the US government's power cannot go unchecked or trample human rights.
相信他的使命是正确的，美国政府的权力不能不受限制或践踏人权。
He tries not to get caught up in what should happen or could happen.
他尽量不陷入应该发生或可能发生的事情中。
He says he's going to stick with this case as long as it takes.
他说，只要需要，他就会坚持这个案子。
But for a minute there, he really thought this thing might end, that the plea deals would materialize, maybe by the end of 2022.
但有那么一刻，他真的认为这件事可能会结束，认罪协议可能会在 2022 年底之前实现。
He started planning his next move, entertainment law.
他开始计划下一步行动：娱乐法。
He wants to work in the music industry.
他想在音乐行业工作。
He even ordered slick new business cards, the kind that feel like a credit card.
他甚至订购了光滑的新名片，那种感觉像信用卡的名片。
Do you ever get the sense that the prosecution feels exactly the same way you guys do on the defense side?
你有没有感觉到控方的感受和你们辩方的感受完全一样？
That everyone is just like, we're locked in this falling apart train that just keeps going?
每个人都会觉得，我们被锁在这辆仍在继续行驶的支离破碎的火车里？
In dark moments, I feel like I'm a puppet in a revenge fantasy where somebody, 15 years ago, decided that they were going to put on this show about getting the death penalty against these men, knowing that the military doesn't really execute people.
在黑暗的时刻，我感觉自己就像是复仇幻想中的傀儡，15年前，有人决定上演这部关于对这些人判处死刑的节目，因为他们知道军队并没有真正处决人。
Military hasn't executed anyone since 1961, and that they needed actors for their-- they needed to put people in place.
自 1961 年以来，军方还没有处决过任何人，他们需要演员——他们需要把人安置到位。
They needed to put defense attorneys in place, prosecutors in place, judge in place.
他们需要让辩护律师就位、检察官就位、法官就位。
I don't always feel that way, but sometimes it feels like that.
我并不总是有这样的感觉，但有时会有这样的感觉。
And I could entirely imagine that the prosecution would feel like that.
我完全可以想象检方会有这样的感觉。
That they are put up there to represent the forces of revenge, and that we're put up there to represent the forces of the rule of law, and that there's just kind of a play that happens.
他们被放在那里代表复仇的力量，而我们被放在那里代表法治的力量，这只是一场戏剧的发生。
The prosecutors weren't permitted to discuss the case with me on the record, so I can't say whether they share J's revenge fantasy feeling.
检察官不被允许与我公开讨论此案，所以我不能说他们是否有J的复仇幻想感觉。
But the prosecution were the ones who initiated the plea negotiations two years ago, as the road to trial was getting only longer and darker.
但检方是两年前发起认罪谈判的，因为审判之路变得越来越漫长、越来越黑暗。
They want this show over, too.
他们也希望这个节目结束。
Toward the end of the week, I checked in with Colleen one last time.
临近周末时，我最后一次与科琳联系。
She'd been up since 3:00 AM, she said.
她说，她从凌晨 3:00 就起床了。
Her mind had been churning, so she said she wrote it all down to get her thoughts outside her body.
她的思绪一直在翻腾，所以她说她把这一切都写下来了，以便将她的想法带出体外。
She'd underestimated how sad this trip was for her.
她低估了这次旅行给她带来的悲伤。
I never cry down here.
我在这里从来不哭。
I mean, like, yeah, this was like the third time I cried down here.
我的意思是，是的，这是我第三次在这里哭泣。
I don't usually cry down here.
我通常不会在这里哭泣。
And I'm not saying that's like good or bad.
我并不是说这是好是坏。
It just is what it is.
它就是这样。
It was just, this trip was really emotional.
只是，这次旅行，实在是太感人了。
I'd seen some of that earlier in the week.
本周早些时候我已经看到了其中的一些内容。
Within 24 hours of our arrival, I'd gone to find her in her hotel room a couple of floors below mine.
我们到达后 24 小时内，我就去她的酒店房间里找到了她，她的房间比我的楼低几层。
She was falling apart a little, missing her brother, worried she couldn't remember his voice anymore, and also just being down here again, watching this case rattle back to life.
她有点崩溃了，想念她的哥哥，担心她记不起他的声音了，但她又回到了这里，看着这个案子重新焕发活力。
I think I've pinned a lot of my hope for accountability and getting to the bottom of this on some kind of a legal process because it just feels like, Jesus, he was murdered.
我想我把追究责任和追究到底的希望寄托在某种法律程序上，因为感觉就像，天哪，他被谋杀了。
Somebody be responsible for that.
有人为此负责。
This side of Colleen, I wasn't familiar with.
科琳的这一面，我并不熟悉。
I'd seen only confident, rigorous, determined Colleen, but never Colleen in despair.
我只见过自信、严谨、坚定的科琳，但从未见过绝望的科琳。
I feel like I've said this 20,000 times, but I'm really feeling this now.
我觉得这句话我已经说了两万遍了，但我现在真的有这样的感觉。
I don't know that there's ever-- that this is ever going to happen.
我不知道这是否会发生。
I don't know that there will ever be a trial.
我不知道是否会有审判。
I've never felt-- I've never questioned it as strongly as I am now.
我从来没有像现在这样强烈地质疑过它。
[SIGHS]
[叹气]
Waiting 20 years for a trial doesn't just deny Colleen answers.
等待审判 20 年并不仅仅否定了科琳的答案。
Year after year after year, it prolongs her grief, makes dealing with her brother's death harder-- if such a thing is possible.
年复一年，这延长了她的悲伤，让处理她哥哥的死亡变得更加困难——如果这种事情可能的话。
By the end of the week, Colleen was more collected.
到了周末，科琳的心情更加平静了。
She told me the VFMs had met with the defense the night before.
她告诉我，VFM 前一天晚上已经与辩方会面了。
She cried a lot at that meeting, too, she said.
她说，在那次会议上她也哭了很多次。
Like J.
像 J。
Connell, she knows better than to get her hopes up, but she realized she'd gotten her hopes up about a plea deal.
康奈尔，她知道最好不要抱太大希望，但她意识到她对认罪协议抱有希望。
The lawyers had talked about how close they'd come, really kind of close to a deal.
律师们谈到了他们距离达成协议有多近，真的很接近达成协议。
In the meeting, Colleen had aired her most cynical and, she worries, possibly her most realistic analysis of how this all ends, which is nothing.
在会议上，科琳表达了她最愤世嫉俗的态度，而且她担心，这可能是她对这一切如何结束的最现实的分析，但其实这没什么。
No trial, no plea deal, no ending.
没有审判，没有认罪协议，没有结局。
And that that nothingness, that is the plan, a plan that would serve the interests of some powerful stakeholders, namely the CIA, which would never have to reveal the identities of the people who conducted and enabled torture, or the countries where it all happened.
而这个虚无，就是这个计划，这个计划将服务于一些强大的利益相关者的利益，即中央情报局，它永远不必透露实施和允许酷刑的人的身份，或者这一切发生的国家。
Also, the detainees, who could quietly stay here at Guantánamo in the communal confinement they want, presumed innocent until they die, forgotten.
此外，被拘留者可以安静地呆在关塔那摩，按照他们想要的公共监禁方式，被认为是无辜的，直到死，被遗忘。
The politicians who could keep kicking this toxic can farther and farther into the distance, keep pretending it's out of their hands.
那些能够继续把这种有毒物质踢得越来越远的政客们，可以继续假装它已经脱离了他们的控制。
Who this plan doesn't serve, of course, is Colleen.
当然，这个计划不适合科琳。
A postscript and perhaps an antidote to this dolorous trip-- while we were at Guantánamo, another Peaceful Tomorrows member was there, too-- Leila Murphy.
这是这次悲惨之旅的后记，或许也是一剂解药——当我们在关塔那摩时，另一位“和平明天”成员也在那里——莱拉·墨菲。
Her week was so different from Colleen's.
她的一周与科琳的非常不同。
She was so different from Colleen.
她与科琳是如此不同。
In the past few years, as founding members of Peaceful Tomorrows have grown infirm or died, a bunch of young people have joined.
过去几年，随着“和平明天”的创始成员体弱或去世，一批年轻人加入了进来。
They're children of 9/11 victims-- Leila and her sister Jessica, Liz, Aiden.
他们是 9/11 受害者的孩子——莱拉和她的妹妹杰西卡、莉兹、艾登。
A young woman named Chanel started coming to the Zoom meetings in November.
一位名叫 Chanel 的年轻女性从 11 月份开始参加 Zoom 会议。
Obviously, they're self-selecting, but a remarkable number of these 9/11 kids have studied Arabic and the Middle East or spent time there.
显然，他们是自我选择的，但这些 9/11 事件的孩子中有相当多的人学习过阿拉伯语和中东，或者在那里呆过一段时间。
Leila's becoming a lawyer.
莱拉即将成为一名律师。
She wants to do criminal defense.
她想做刑事辩护。
Her sister's in med school.
她姐姐在医学院上学。
She's interested in the effects of torture on human health.
她对酷刑对人类健康的影响感兴趣。
The Murphy sisters have joked darkly that this was KSM's plan all along-- to radicalize the children of 9/11 victims against their own government.
墨菲姐妹曾阴暗地开玩笑说，这一直是 KSM 的计划——让 9/11 受害者的孩子变得激进，反对他们自己的政府。
During the day at Guantánamo, Leila met with attorneys, took copious notes during court.
白天，莱拉在关塔那摩会见了律师，并在法庭上做了大量笔记。
She was with two other young people, one a fellow law student, another a recently minted lawyer.
她和另外两个年轻人在一起，其中一个是法学院同学，另一个是新晋律师。
In the evenings, they did what young people do-- played cornhole at the Tiki Bar, played tennis or pickleball.
晚上，他们做年轻人做的事——在 Tiki 酒吧打沙包、打网球或泡菜球。
Also, I just love the sign-- "First dedicated pickleball courts in the Navy."
另外，我很喜欢这个标志——“海军第一个专用匹克球场”。
Wait, actually?
等等，实际上？
Leila Murphy That's what it says on the sign with, like, pickle clip art.
莱拉·墨菲（Leila Murphy） 标牌上就是这么写的，上面有泡菜剪贴画。
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
It's not that Leila was living it up.
莱拉并不是在过着这样的生活。
It's that she seemed to have no expectations from this trip.
而是她似乎对这次旅行并没有什么期待。
She was an observer in the literal sense, taking it in, noting it down.
她是一个真正意义上的观察者，吸收它，记录下来。
She admires Colleen and Terry and the other members of this group, but she doesn't need what they need.
她钦佩科琳和特里以及这个团体的其他成员，但她不需要他们需要的东西。
She's not waiting for answers from the 9/11 accused.
她没有等待 9/11 被告的答复。
She doesn't need a trial.
她不需要审判。
And sure, a plea deal would be good.
当然，认罪协议会很好。
She'll lobby for that.
她会为此进行游说。
But whatever happens to these five aging defendants, she doubts it'll have meaning for her.
但无论这五名老年被告发生了什么，她怀疑这对她来说是否有意义。
What Leila wants, what would be most meaningful to her, is an admission of guilt from the US government.
莱拉想要的，对她来说最有意义的，是美国政府承认有罪。
Their horrible behavior is the reason we're in this situation and the reason it's dragging on for so long and the reason that they're even pleased.
他们可怕的行为是我们处于这种情况的原因，也是这种情况持续这么久的原因，也是他们感到高兴的原因。
Like, there will never be any real justice, you know, because it's just all so fucked up.
就像，永远不会有任何真正的正义，你知道，因为这一切都太糟糕了。
[LAUGHS] The US's behavior is the reason this has dragged on.
[笑]美国的行为是这种情况拖延下去的原因。
Leila's voice dropped.
莱拉的声音低了下来。
A guy in military uniform was walking past, close enough to hear us.
一个穿着军装的家伙走过来，离我们很近，可以听到我们的声音。
Did you just get nervous because you saw someone who looked like military?
你是否只是因为看到一个看起来像军人的人而感到紧张？
I understood her trepidation.
我理解她的惶恐。
It feels somehow heretical, or at least ungrateful, with all these soldiers and sailors around, for Leila to say, all the government's post 9/11 effort, the endless war and the prison and the court, I know you did it for me.
周围有这么多士兵和水手，莱拉说，政府在 9/11 事件后所做的一切努力、无休止的战争、监狱和法庭，我知道你是为了我，这感觉有点异端，或者至少是忘恩负义。
You did it in my name.
你以我的名义做了这件事。
But none of it worked.
但这些都不起作用。
So it's time to stop now.
所以现在是时候停下来了。
Just say you made a huge mistake and that you're sorry.
只要说你犯了一个巨大的错误并且你很抱歉。
Leila knows it's a long shot.
莱拉知道这希望渺茫。
She was three years old when her father died in 2001.
2001年，她的父亲去世时，她才三岁。
And in all the time since, the government has never held itself accountable, has never worked to reset our common morality as a country.
从那时起，政府从未对自己负责，也从未努力重置我们作为一个国家的共同道德。
But this young person who's about to become a lawyer, it'd be so great if she could have this little bit of hope in the forces of the rule of law.
但对于这个即将成为律师的年轻人来说，如果能够对法治的力量抱有那么一点希望，那就太好了。
Sarah Koenig.
莎拉·科尼格.
Act Two: Act Two Ira Glass This episode, from season 4 of Serial, was produced by Jessica Weisberg and edited by Julie Snyder, Dana Chivvis, Jen Guerra, and myself, with Rozina Ali, John Ryan, and Carol Rosenberg.
第二幕：第二幕 Ira Glass 这一集来自《连续剧》第 4 季，由 Jessica Weisberg 制作，由 Julie Snyder、Dana Chivvis、Jen Guerra 和我本人以及 Rozina Ali、John Ryan 和 Carol Rosenberg 编辑。
Additional reporting from Cora Currier and Emma Grillo.
Cora Currier 和 Emma Grillo 的补充报道。
Fact-checking by Kelsey Kudak and Ben Phelan.
凯尔西·库达克 (Kelsey Kudak) 和本·费兰 (Ben Phelan) 进行的事实核查。
The original score was composed by Sofia Degli Alessandri.
原配乐由索菲亚·德利·亚历山德里 (Sofia Degli Alessandri) 创作。
Music supervision, sound design, and mixing by Phoebe Wang.
Phoebe Wang 担任音乐监督、声音设计和混音。
The series is produced by Serial Productions and the New York Times.
该剧由 Serial Productions 和《纽约时报》制作。
You can hear the rest of the season-- and I recommend it-- wherever you get your podcasts.
无论您在哪里观看播客，都可以听到本季的剩余节目——我推荐它。
Diane Wu, Mike Comite, Safiyah Riddle, and Matt Tierney helped put together this episode of our show.
Diane Wu、Mike Comite、Safiyah Riddle 和 Matt Tierney 帮助整理了我们节目的这一集。
Special thanks to Al-Amyn Sumar, Susan Wessling, Ndeye Thioubou, Mack Miller, Nina Lassam, and New York Times Deputy Managing Editor Sam Dolnick.
特别感谢 Al-Amyn Sumar、Susan Wessling、Ndeye Thioubou、Mack Miller、Nina Lassam 和《纽约时报》副总编辑 Sam Dolnick。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
He told me that growing up, his family had not one, not two, but three wells in the backyard.
他告诉我，从小到大，他家后院的井不是一口，不是两口，而是三口。
I was like, really?
我当时想，真的吗？
(SUBJECT) VICTIM FAMILY MEMBER: Well, well, well, yeah.
（对象） 受害者家庭成员： 嗯，嗯，嗯，是的。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
This American Life This American Life 与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。