829: Two Ledgers - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #829 | May 10, 2024 829: Two Ledgers Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 829 集 | 2024 年 5 月 10 日 829：两个分类帐 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
序言：序言 来自 WBEZ 芝加哥的 Ira Glass，这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
I want to play something for you today.
今天我想为你演奏一些东西。
And before I do, I want to get in front of something.
在我这样做之前，我想要先做一些事情。
The story is about Guantánamo.
这个故事是关于关塔那摩的。
And I think lots of us hear "Guantánamo" at this point, and we think, ugh, it's heavy, and it's complicated.
我想我们很多人此时听到“关塔那摩”，我们会想，呃，它很沉重，而且很复杂。
And is it really still going on?
而且这种情况真的还在继续吗？
And don't I really know everything I already need to know about Guantánamo?
难道我真的不知道关于关塔那摩我需要知道的一切吗？
Maybe you've heard our co-workers Sarah Koenig and Dana Chivvis over at Serial.
也许您在 Serial 听过我们的同事 Sarah Koenig 和 Dana Chivvis。
They've been rolling out season four of Serial, and it's all about Guantánamo.
他们已经推出了《连续剧》第四季，全部都是关于关塔那摩的。
And the premise of the show is, enough time has passed that all these people who were there in its heyday can finally talk publicly about what really happened-- what it was like to work there, what it was like to be imprisoned there.
该剧的前提是，足够的时间过去了，所有在鼎盛时期在那里的人终于可以公开谈论到底发生了什么——在那里工作是什么感觉，在那里被监禁是什么感觉。
And you hear all these ordinary people who were thrown into this extraordinary situation where there were guards and interrogators and commanders and detainees and this invented offshore prison with its own weird, brand-new rules.
你会听到所有这些普通人被抛入这种非同寻常的境地，那里有警卫、审讯者、指挥官和被拘留者，而且这个离岸监狱发明了它自己奇怪的、全新的规则。
And you finally get a very clear sense of what it was like in there.
你终于对那里的情况有了一个非常清晰的认识。
But there are two episodes that they made that are about stuff that's just happened down there in the last couple of years, and about stuff that is going to happen, that's going to be in the news.
但他们制作的两集是关于过去几年里刚刚发生的事情，以及关于即将发生的事情，这些事情将出现在新闻中。
And honestly, what I heard these two episodes, I thought-- I know this sounds kind of grand.
老实说，我听到这两集，我想——我知道这听起来有点宏伟。
I thought, really, every American should hear these.
我想，真的，每个美国人都应该听到这些。
They're the kind of stories that, when you hear them, it totally changes how you understand the news after that.
这些故事当你听到它们时，会完全改变你对新闻的理解。
And they're also just amazing stories.
它们也是令人惊奇的故事。
And so what we're going to do this week and next, we're going to do something we've never done.
因此，我们本周和下周要做的事情，我们将做一些我们从未做过的事情。
We're going to run these two episodes from Serial, two full episodes on our show.
我们将播放连续剧中的这两集，即我们节目中的两集完整集。
And so, right now, today, here is the first of those two episodes.
所以，现在，今天，这是这两集的第一集。
Dana Chivvis, co-host this season of Serial, and she does this one.
达纳·奇夫维斯 (Dana Chivvis)，本季连续剧的共同主持人，她主持了这一季。
Majid Khan was 16 when his family moved to Baltimore from Pakistan.
马吉德·汗 (Majid Khan) 16 岁时，全家从巴基斯坦搬到巴尔的摩。
He went to Owings Mills High School, smoked weed, worked at his dad's gas station, and thought about becoming a DJ under the stage name "Bob Day-si." He listened to Eminem and watched Law and Order and paid attention in Ms. Sanford's social studies class, where he learned about checks and balances and due process.
他就读于 Owings Mills 高中，吸过大麻，在父亲的加油站工作，并考虑以“Bob Day-si”为艺名成为一名 DJ。他听阿姆的演讲，观看《法律与秩序》，并专心听桑福德女士的社会研究课，在那里他学习了制衡和正当程序。
So when Majid Khan found himself locked away in a cold, dark cell at a black site in 2003, he told the CIA he wanted to see a lawyer.
因此，2003 年，当马吉德·汗 (Majid Khan) 发现自己被关在一个黑色场所的一间寒冷黑暗的牢房中时，他告诉中央情报局他想见律师。
CIA is just shocked.
中央情报局只是感到震惊。
It's like, what do you thinking, who you are and where you are?
就像，你在想什么，你是谁，你在哪里？
It's like, you're talking about rights?
就像，你在谈论权利？
Son, the gloves came off a long time ago.
儿子，手套很久以前就掉了。
That's what they tell me.
他们就是这么告诉我的。
I was like, no. No, I still believe in due process.
我当时想，不。不，我仍然相信正当程序。
I still believe in due process.
我仍然相信正当程序。
Right or wrong, whatever I did, I believe in due process.
无论我做的是对是错，我都相信正当程序。
What he did-- instead of becoming a DJ, Majid joined al-Qaeda, reported directly to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the admitted mastermind of 9/11.
他所做的——马吉德没有成为一名 DJ，而是加入了基地组织，直接向公认的 9/11 策划者哈立德·谢赫·穆罕默德汇报。
Naturally, the CIA had questions for him, but the way they asked those questions, they tortured him at black sites for years.
当然，中央情报局向他提出了问题，但他们提出这些问题的方式，多年来一直在黑色网站上折磨他。
And when they were done, they sent him to Guantánamo in shackles and a diaper.
当他们完成后，他们把他戴着手铐和尿布送到关塔那摩。
Majid did bad things.
马吉德做了坏事。
He joined al-Qaeda, wore a suicide vest, tried to kill the Pakistani president.
他加入了基地组织，穿着自杀背心，试图刺杀巴基斯坦总统。
He came up with plots targeting the American government to blow up gas stations and poison the water supply near military installations, to sell poisoned medication in the United States.
他策划了针对美国政府的阴谋，炸毁加油站并在军事设施附近的供水系统中投毒，以便在美国销售有毒药物。
He delivered $50,000 to another terrorist, money the United States says was used to fund a suicide bombing that killed 11 people and injured at least 81 others.
他向另一名恐怖分子交付了 5 万美元，美国称这笔钱被用来资助一场自杀式爆炸袭击，导致 11 人死亡、至少 81 人受伤。
And then we did bad things back to Majid.
然后我们又对马吉德做了坏事。
We disappeared him for three years, locked him away for 20, tortured him.
我们失踪了他三年，把他关了二十年，折磨了他。
This story is about two ledgers-- on one side, what Majid did to us; on the other, what we did to Majid.
这个故事是关于两个账本的——一方面是马吉德对我们做了什么；另一方面是马吉德对我们做了什么。另一方面，我们对马吉德做了什么。
How do you weigh those against each other?
您如何权衡这些因素？
In the historical accounting to come, which is worse?
在未来的历史核算中，哪个更糟糕？
Majid's case is the first time at Guantánamo those ledgers are compared, and someone has to render a verdict.
马吉德的案件是关塔那摩监狱首次对这些账本进行比较，必须有人做出裁决。
Majid's story starts with his radicalization.
马吉德的故事始于他的激进化。
Unlike so many former Guantánamo detainees, there's clear public evidence that he was in al-Qaeda.
与许多前关塔那摩被拘留者不同，有明确的公开证据表明他曾参与基地组织。
He admits it.
他承认。
So this is a rare chance to hear how someone made the leap from self-described normal American teenager to self-described terrorist.
因此，这是一个难得的机会来了解某人如何从自称的正常美国青少年一跃成为自称的恐怖分子。
It's actually quite simple, to hear Majid tell it.
其实很简单，听马吉德讲。
The reason I joined al-Qaeda was the Palestine issue.
我加入基地组织的原因是巴勒斯坦问题。
It begins with Palestine.
这要从巴勒斯坦说起。
Majid Khan I had nothing against America.
马吉德汗我并不反对美国。
I didn't have it then.
我当时没有。
I don't have it now.
我现在没有了。
It's your fucking stupid foreign policy that your leaders make-- right?-- that I criticized.
我批评的是你们的领导人制定的愚蠢的外交政策——对吗？
Some people might remember President George Bush explaining September 11th, saying that al-Qaeda attacked us because they hate our freedoms, our liberty.
有些人可能还记得乔治·布什总统在 9 月 11 日解释说，基地组织攻击我们，因为他们讨厌我们的自由，我们的自由。
Actually, what al-Qaeda really hated was our support for Israel, that we had troops in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, that we had invaded Iraq the first time in 1991.
事实上，基地组织真正讨厌的是我们对以色列的支持，我们在科威特和沙特阿拉伯驻军，我们在1991年首次入侵伊拉克。
When I visited Majid last year in Belize, where he now lives with his wife and two kids in a bright-green cottage not far from the sea, it was November 2023, just weeks since the October 7 terrorist attacks on Israel and the start of the relentless bombing of Gaza in return.
去年我在伯利兹拜访马吉德时，他现在与妻子和两个孩子住在离海边不远的一栋亮绿色小屋里。那是 2023 年 11 月，距 10 月 7 日以色列遭受恐怖袭击以及对加沙的无情轰炸开始仅几周。
He had been watching a lot of cable news coverage of the war and TikTok videos.
他一直在观看大量有关战争的有线电视新闻报道和 TikTok 视频。
Like so many people, Muslims and non-Muslims alike, he was fired up about the atrocities there, the same kinds of atrocities that had spurred him to join al-Qaeda two decades ago.
像许多人一样，无论是穆斯林还是非穆斯林，他对那里的暴行感到愤怒，二十年前正是这些暴行促使他加入了基地组织。
What he was seeing was Americans making the same mistakes all over again, supporting Israel.
他看到的是美国人再次犯同样的错误，支持以色列。
You guys are so powerful, so smart, and you guys so dumbass at the same time.
你们是如此强大，如此聪明，同时又如此愚蠢。
No offense.
无意冒犯。
[LAUGHS] I mean, I'm not an American, OK, by citizenship.
[笑]我的意思是，就公民身份而言，我不是美国人。
But you guys amaze me every single time.
但你们每次都让我感到惊讶。
What's the dumbass part?
愚蠢的部分是什么？
Majid Khan Not getting the basics!
马吉德·汗 (Majid Khan) 没有掌握基础知识！
And I'm thinking, there could be another Majid Khan somewhere right now.
我在想，现在某个地方可能还有另一个马吉德汗。
Now, imagine that, back then, we didn't have YouTube, we didn't have Instagram.
现在，想象一下，那时候，我们没有 YouTube，也没有 Instagram。
And I'm thinking, what are they thinking, these kids?
我在想，这些孩子们在想什么？
And they're so stupid kids.
而且他们都是那么愚蠢的孩子。
So they could be easily misled.
所以他们很容易被误导。
And I'm thinking, how many Majid Khan out there right now that will become like me?
我在想，现在有多少马吉德汗会变得像我一样？
What led Majid to extremism was a confluence of events.
导致马吉德走向极端主义的原因是一系列事件的综合作用。
Growing up, he wasn't very religious.
在成长过程中，他并不是很虔诚。
He and his parents, his seven siblings, they didn't pray regularly.
他和他的父母，他的七个兄弟姐妹，他们不定期祈祷。
He says his mother was anti-religion.
他说他的母亲是反宗教的。
When he grew a beard, she made him shave it off.
当他长出胡子时，她让他把胡子剃掉。
But in his late teenage years after his family moved to Baltimore, he struggled with his identity.
但在他青少年时期，全家搬到巴尔的摩后，他开始为自己的身份而挣扎。
He wanted to fit into American high school life, to be cool, but he wasn't sure that being cool was very Majid.
他想融入美国高中生活，想表现得很酷，但他不确定表现得很酷就是马吉德。
He felt guilty that he didn't pray, that he was a bad Muslim.
他为自己没有祈祷而感到内疚，因为自己是一个坏穆斯林。
He started learning more about Islam from a group of proselytizers called the Tablighi Jamaat, who would visit him at work and at the mosque.
他开始从一群名为 Tablighi Jamaat 的传教者那里更多地了解伊斯兰教，他们会在工作场所和清真寺拜访他。
And then, when he was 21, Majid's mother died suddenly.
然后，当他 21 岁时，马吉德的母亲突然去世。
She was the most important person in his life, the center of their family.
她是他生命中最重要的人，是他们家庭的中心。
He says he was devastated.
他说他很伤心。
He started asking the big questions about life and death.
他开始提出有关生与死的重大问题。
He felt like he had sinned up until that point, had wasted his life.
他觉得自己在那之前就犯了罪，浪费了自己的生命。
He decided to devote himself to Islam.
他决定献身于伊斯兰教。
No more partying, no more smoking weed.
不再参加派对，不再吸大麻。
And it was at this point that he started getting more political.
正是在这一点上，他开始变得更加政治化。
At the mosque, they talked about Palestine.
在清真寺里，他们谈论巴勒斯坦。
The world seemed black and white to him.
世界对他来说似乎是黑白的。
At some point in my life, I had to choose a path.
在我生命中的某个时刻，我必须选择一条道路。
Do you want to be siding with the oppressed or oppressor?
你想站在被压迫者还是压迫者一边吗？
I chose to be siding with the oppressed.
我选择站在受压迫者一边。
Nine months after his mother's death, he went to Pakistan for a bunch of family weddings.
母亲去世九个月后，他前往巴基斯坦参加了一系列家庭婚礼。
His family wanted to arrange a marriage for him, too.
他的家人也想为他安排一桩婚事。
And secretly, he also had a fantasy of joining the jihad, maybe training at the camps in Afghanistan.
私下里，他也有加入圣战的幻想，也许可以在阿富汗的营地接受训练。
Growing up in Pakistan, Majid heard a lot about the mujahideen, how honorable they were, how brave-- like the Navy SEALs in the United States, he says.
马吉德在巴基斯坦长大，他听说过很多关于圣战者的事，他们是多么光荣，多么勇敢——就像美国的海豹突击队一样，他说。
He didn't particularly care which jihadi group he joined.
他并不特别关心自己加入了哪个圣战组织。
There were a bunch of them.
他们有很多。
I'll be honest with you, I didn't go to Pakistan to join al-Qaeda.
老实说，我去巴基斯坦不是为了加入基地组织。
They came to me.
他们来找我。
Out of billion people, billions of Muslims, I happen to have cousin and an uncle that are al-Qaeda leaders.
在数十亿人、数十亿穆斯林中，我碰巧有一个表弟和一个叔叔，他们都是基地组织的领导人。
It was January 2002, four months after 9/11.
那是 2002 年 1 月，即 9/11 事件发生四个月后。
bin Laden had denied responsibility for the attacks, though the American government had quickly concluded al-Qaeda was behind them.
本拉登否认对这些袭击负责，尽管美国政府很快就断定基地组织是袭击的幕后黑手。
Majid didn't believe it.
马吉德不相信。
And then part of me is like, come on, Muslim could do it?
然后我的一部分就想，拜托，穆斯林可以做到吗？
And I'm into conspiracy theories.
我对阴谋论很着迷。
I was like, no way.
我当时想，没办法。
I told my uncle and my cousin, like, dude, I knew the Jews were behind it.
我告诉我的叔叔和表弟，伙计，我知道犹太人是幕后黑手。
I saw it on the internet.
我在网上看到的。
I saw CIA were behind it.
我看到中央情报局是幕后黑手。
They were laughing at me.
他们在嘲笑我。
His uncle and cousin convinced him.
他的叔叔和表弟说服了他。
No, it wasn't an inside job.
不，这不是内部工作。
The Jews didn't do it.
犹太人没有这样做。
It was al-Qaeda.
这是基地组织。
It was us.
是我们。
But instead of being horrified by this information, Majid joined them.
但马吉德并没有被这个信息吓到，而是加入了他们。
I was already pissed off about the Palestine thing.
我已经对巴勒斯坦问题感到愤怒了。
Somehow, though, what I understood that happened-- I got to be careful what I'm about to say.
但不知何故，我所理解的事情发生了——我必须小心我要说的话。
It could be misconstrued.
这可能会被误解。
Almost, in my mind-- and I wasn't alone.
几乎，在我看来——而且我并不孤单。
There was some Islamic community members that I was with that they did not appreciate it, but almost had like they had it coming.
我和一些伊斯兰社区成员在一起，他们并不欣赏这一点，但几乎就像他们已经接受了一样。
The United States had it coming because of what they were doing in Palestine and the Islamic countries.
美国之所以会出现这种情况，是因为他们在巴勒斯坦和伊斯兰国家所做的事情。
And that's how I felt about it at the time.
这就是我当时的感受。
I didn't like it, but it just-- I was so mad, what was happening in Palestine.
我不喜欢它，但巴勒斯坦发生的事情让我很生气。
And it's just hard to explain that-- I've never killed before.
这很难解释——我以前从未杀过人。
I have never seen suffering before.
我以前从未见过痛苦。
But somehow that what was happening in Palestine affected me so much, that somehow I was OK to say, well, they had it coming.
但不知何故，巴勒斯坦发生的事情对我影响如此之大，以至于我可以说，好吧，他们已经做到了。
Just like, I was just watching Fox News yesterday, and everybody in Fox News-- well, if the Palestinian didn't like it, well, they had it coming.
就像，我昨天刚刚在看福克斯新闻，福克斯新闻中的每个人——好吧，如果巴勒斯坦人不喜欢它，那么，他们就会这么做。
They were the one who selected Hamas to be operating in Gaza.
他们是选择哈马斯在加沙活动的人。
Same thing.
同样的事情。
I was in that mindset.
我就是这样的心态。
I must tell you, I know I'm being honest with you, but I may come across callous.
我必须告诉你，我知道我对你很诚实，但我可能会显得冷酷无情。
But this is a brutal truth.
但这是一个残酷的事实。
So please bear with me, and try to understand.
所以请耐心听我说，并尝试理解。
I am not trying to offend you guys.
我并不是想冒犯你们。
I know you guys-- an American and patriotic American.
我认识你们——一个美国人，一个爱国的美国人。
I hope you are, and you should be.
我希望你是，而且你应该是。
And you should get a little irritated by these statements, and you should be.
你应该对这些言论感到有点恼火，你也应该如此。
But I am just telling you, I can't sugarcoat my statement so that I can please you.
但我只是告诉你，我不能粉饰自己的言论来取悦你。
Let me be clear.
让我说清楚。
Majid says he has long since rejected extremism.
马吉德说他早已拒绝极端主义。
He left al-Qaeda while he was still locked up at Guantánamo.
当他仍被关押在关塔那摩时，他就离开了基地组织。
He says he doesn't think 9/11 was righteous or good or justified, but he does understand the twisted logic behind al-Qaeda's attacks because at the age of 21, he believed in that logic himself.
他说他不认为 9/11 是正义的、好的或合理的，但他确实理解基地组织袭击背后的扭曲逻辑，因为在 21 岁时，他自己就相信这种逻辑。
He has a unique perspective of a person who has lived fully immersed in both the culture of the United States and the culture of al-Qaeda.
作为一个完全沉浸在美国文化和基地组织文化中的人，他有着独特的视角。
He can explain both worlds with fluency.
他可以流利地解释这两个世界。
Once he was in al-Qaeda, arguably, the worst thing Majid did is what Majid did not do.
可以说，一旦加入基地组织，马吉德所做的最糟糕的事情就是马吉德没有做的事情。
He did not assassinate Pakistani president Pervez Musharraf in a suicide attack, but he tried to.
他没有在自杀式袭击中暗杀巴基斯坦总统穆沙拉夫，但他试图这样做。
When he joined al-Qaeda, Majid volunteered to be a suicide bomber.
当马吉德加入基地组织时，他自愿成为一名自杀式炸弹袭击者。
I had shown my willingness to my cousin and told my uncle that, hey, by the way, if there's an opportunity, let me know.
我已经向我表弟表明了我的意愿，并告诉我叔叔，嘿，顺便说一句，如果有机会，请告诉我。
Did you say that with any kind of thought, or did you just sort of, like, offer yourself up without really thinking it through?
你这么说是经过深思熟虑的，还是只是在没有认真思考的情况下就提出了自己的要求？
No, I mean, I was sincere.
不，我是说，我是真诚的。
I truly believed that this is the way to go to heaven.
我坚信这就是通往天堂的路。
Beyond-- how sure are you it's night right now?
除此之外——你有多确定现在是晚上？
It's very dark out, yeah.
外面很黑，是的。
Majid Khan Yeah, I was that sure.
马吉德·汗 是的，我就这么确定。
That's the way to go.
这就是要走的路。
And you wanted that why?
你想要这个，为什么？
Majid Khan Who doesn't want to go to heaven?
马吉德汗 谁不想去天堂？
Well, I mean, you were 20.
好吧，我的意思是，你才20岁。
Like, you had so much of your life ahead of you.
就像，你的人生还有很多事情等着你。
Yeah, the test is over.
是的，测试结束了。
See?
看？
This life is test.
这一生就是考验。
The test is over.
测试结束了。
Majid's family had arranged a marriage for him to Rabia.
马吉德的家人为他安排了与拉比亚的婚姻。
They're still married today.
他们今天仍然结婚了。
He says their wedding was the happiest day of his life.
他说他们的婚礼是他一生中最幸福的一天。
But while they were on their honeymoon, KSM, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, called Majid's cousin.
但当他们度蜜月时，KSM，哈立德·谢赫·穆罕默德，给马吉德的表弟打电话。
He had a job for Majid to do back in Karachi.
他有一份工作要让马吉德回到卡拉奇去做。
The job was a suicide mission.
这项工作是一项自杀任务。
Majid would wear an explosive vest to a mosque where the Pakistani president, Musharraf, was expected to attend Friday prayers.
马吉德会穿着爆炸背心前往一座清真寺，预计巴基斯坦总统穆沙拉夫将出席周五的祈祷活动。
At a safe house in Karachi, Majid tried on the vest.
在卡拉奇的一个安全屋，马吉德试穿了这件背心。
KSM told me how to wear it and how to reach out to him, how close to get to blow him up, and basic training like where to sit when he reaches.
KSM 告诉我如何佩戴它，如何接触他，距离他有多近，把他炸死，以及基本训练，比如当他到达时坐在哪里。
Try to get as close as possible.
尝试尽可能接近。
The idea was, if you can just hug him, it'll be perfect.
我的想法是，如果你能拥抱他，那就完美了。
And he told me like, just remember that the idea was to do less damage to the people.
他告诉我，只要记住这个想法是为了减少对人们的伤害。
If you can get close and shake hands and just hug him and then press the button, perfect.
如果你能靠近他，握手，拥抱他，然后按下按钮，那就完美了。
He says he did ask KSM, what about all the civilians who would be killed?
他说他确实问过 KSM，所有将被杀害的平民怎么办？
Yeah, I did ask him.
是的，我确实问过他。
I did ask him.
我确实问过他。
I said, what about the civilians?
我说，那平民呢？
He justified there was some hadith was done where the Prophet was at war.
他辩解说，先知在战争期间曾写过一些圣训。
And in nighttime, there was unintentionally some civilian were killed.
而在夜间，无意间发生了一些平民被杀的事件。
Basically, in American language, it was collateral damage.
基本上，用美国语言来说，这是附带损害。
We don't want to do it, unless we have no option.
我们不想这样做，除非我们别无选择。
But somehow, when you are in this cycle that I was in, it's like being in a tornado, you know?
但不知何故，当你处于我所处的这个循环中时，就像处于龙卷风中一样，你知道吗？
There's not much time.
时间不多了。
You're not thinking.
你没有思考。
You're not saying, oh, by the way, let's just think about this, right?
你不是说，哦，顺便说一句，让我们考虑一下，对吧？
If I could go back and change it, I would.
如果我能回去改变它，我会的。
I wish I could go back and tell myself, calm down, cowboy.
我希望我能回去告诉自己，冷静点，牛仔。
You know?
你知道？
Think what you're doing.
想想你在做什么。
There's the consequences of your actions.
这是你的行为的后果。
Didn't think about my family and none of that stuff.
没有考虑我的家人，也没有考虑那些事情。
On that Friday morning, KSM drove Majid to the mosque in a red Suzuki.
那个周五早上，KSM 开着一辆红色铃木载着马吉德去清真寺。
He sat through all of Friday prayers in the suicide vest.
他穿着自杀背心参加了所有周五的祈祷。
He told me he was calm.
他告诉我他很平静。
He even fell asleep at one point because he was a little bored.
他甚至有一次因为有点无聊而睡着了。
He just wanted to get on with it.
他只是想继续下去。
But Musharraf never showed up.
但穆沙拉夫从未露面。
After the failed suicide attack, Majid continued plotting with KSM to blow up gas stations, to import explosives into the United States.
自杀式袭击失败后，马吉德继续与 KSM 密谋炸毁加油站，将炸药进口到美国。
They talked about Majid becoming a sleeper agent back home.
他们谈论马吉德在家乡成为潜伏特工。
He returned to Baltimore for a few months, where he was supposed to recruit others to join al-Qaeda.
他回到巴尔的摩几个月，在那里他应该招募其他人加入基地组织。
But once he was home, his new path and his new identity, jihadi Majid, were not so clear.
但当他回到家后，他的新道路和新身份“圣战马吉德”就不再那么清晰了。
When I was in the States, it's fascinating.
当我在美国时，这很令人着迷。
I was like, OK, life is not that bad.
我当时想，好吧，生活并没有那么糟糕。
It's like I'm living an American life.
这就像我过着美国式的生活。
And then I talked to my cousin and uncle, and then they said, look, your po, your heart has been poisoned again with the West and the love of West.
然后我和我的表弟和叔叔谈话，然后他们说，看，你的阿婆，你的心又被西方和西方的爱毒害了。
So come back to us.
所以回到我们身边吧。
We will purify your heart.
我们将净化你的心灵。
I just-- identity crisis-- I don't know, whatever you want to call it.
我只是——身份危机——我不知道，无论你怎么称呼它。
I loved living in America in a sense that my family and friends were there.
我喜欢在美国生活，因为我的家人和朋友都在那里。
That's great.
那太棒了。
But part of me said, look, they're right, too.
但我内心的一部分说，看，他们也是对的。
I want to be part of Mujahideen as well.
我也想成为圣战者组织的一员。
According to the United States government and to Majid himself, he never directly physically injured anyone.
据美国政府和马吉德本人称，他从未直接对任何人造成身体伤害。
The plots he and KSM dreamt up were abandoned.
他和KSM梦想的情节被放弃了。
He never wore a suicide vest again.
他再也没有穿过自杀背心。
The most clear of his crimes, with the gravest consequences, according to the US government, was delivering the $50,000 to another terrorist group, which prosecutors say was used to fund the JW Marriott Hotel bombing in Jakarta.
据美国政府称，他犯下的最明显、后果最严重的罪行是向另一个恐怖组织提供了 5 万美元，检察官称该组织被用来资助雅加达 JW 万豪酒店爆炸案。
Majid says he didn't know about the bomb plot or what the money would be used for.
马吉德说，他不知道炸弹阴谋，也不知道这笔钱将用来做什么。
He was just told to deliver it.
他只是被告知要交付它。
But, of course, the person who asked him to deliver it was Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the architect of 9/11.
但是，当然，要求他交付它的人是 9/11 的策划者哈立德·谢赫·穆罕默德 (Khalid Sheikh Mohammed)。
By the time the bombing happened, Majid was already in American custody.
爆炸发生时，马吉德已被美国拘留。
Early one morning in March 2003, he'd been woken up by his brother.
2003年3月的一天清晨，他被弟弟叫醒。
He was staying at his apartment in Karachi.
他当时住在卡拉奇的公寓里。
They heard shouting and banging on the door.
他们听到喊叫声和敲门声。
It was Pakistani intelligence.
这是巴基斯坦情报机构。
"Are you Bob Day-si?" they shouted at him.
“你是鲍勃·戴斯吗？”他们对他大喊大叫。
He'd used his DJ name on a Hotmail account.
他在 Hotmail 帐户上使用了自己的 DJ 名字。
They took him into custody, interrogated him, and beat him.
他们拘留了他，审问了他，并殴打了他。
There were FBI agents and some other unidentified Americans there, too.
那里还有联邦调查局特工和其他一些身份不明的美国人。
And then, after months of this, he was turned over to the CIA.
然后，几个月后，他被移交给中央情报局。
This is where the story of what Majid did ends and the story of what we did to Majid begins.
这就是马吉德所做的事情的故事结束的地方，也是我们对马吉德所做的事情的故事开始的地方。
The details of Majid's time in the CIA black sites have been covered in the news and in the Senate's report on the CIA's rendition, detention, and interrogation program, the so-called "torture report." The torture he endured was intense and brutal, which is why I was surprised to learn that he came away from it all with a respect for the CIA, a kind of opponent's respect.
马吉德在中央情报局黑点的详细情况已在新闻和参议院关于中央情报局引渡、拘留和审讯计划的报告（即所谓的“酷刑报告”）中进行了报道。他所遭受的酷刑是剧烈而残酷的，这就是为什么我惊讶地发现他带着对中央情报局的尊重——一种对手的尊重——摆脱了这一切。
It was one of the first things he told me when I arrived in Belize.
这是我到达伯利兹后他告诉我的第一件事。
We were sitting on a couch in his living room.
我们坐在他客厅的沙发上。
His daughter had just made us some tea.
他的女儿刚刚给我们泡了茶。
Two fans were blowing the sticky Caribbean air around, and he just launched into it, how he appreciated the candor of the CIA.
两个风扇吹着加勒比海粘稠的空气，他就投入其中，他多么欣赏中央情报局的坦率。
We had a very frank conversation.
我们进行了非常坦诚的交谈。
I mean, and they won't BS with us.
我的意思是，他们不会和我们废话。
I mean, they were so honest with us.
我的意思是，他们对我们非常诚实。
Like, dude, I'm going to torture you tomorrow.
就像，伙计，明天我要折磨你。
They're going to torture me tomorrow.
明天他们就会折磨我。
[CHUCKLES] And when they were done torturing me tomorrow, after one week, they're done.
[笑]当他们明天结束对我的折磨时，一周后，他们就结束了。
OK, we're not going to torture you anymore.
好吧，我们不会再折磨你了。
I mean, they were very frank, very straightforward.
我的意思是，他们非常坦率、非常直接。
He said all the prisoners with him in Camp 7-- that's the secret prison at Guantánamo, where he was eventually held, along with KSM and other men who had been tortured by the CIA-- all the prisoners in Camp 7 felt that way.
他说，与他一起关押在 7 号营的所有囚犯——那是关塔那摩的秘密监狱，他最终被关押在那里，还有 KSM 和其他曾受到中央情报局酷刑的人——7 号营的所有囚犯都有这种感觉。
I mean, I've talked to KSM.
我的意思是，我已经和 KSM 谈过了。
I've talked to all the brothers in Camp 7.
我已经和七号营的所有弟兄谈过了。
We actually had a lot of respect for CIA.
我们实际上非常尊重中央情报局。
We understood why they're torturing us.
我们明白他们为什么要折磨我们。
We understood they want intelligence.
我们知道他们想要情报。
It's part of the business.
这是业务的一部分。
It comes with the job.
它是随着工作而来的。
And our job is to hold intelligence as much as possible, as much as bearable.
我们的工作就是尽可能多地保留情报，尽可能多地保留情报。
And we had a mutual respect for that.
我们对此相互尊重。
It's not that Majid was OK with being tortured, of course.
当然，这并不是说马吉德可以接受酷刑。
The CIA did horrifying things to him at the black sites.
中央情报局在黑色地点对他做了可怕的事情。
He was held underwater, hanged, force fed, short shackled.
他被关在水下、绞死、强行灌食、戴短脚镣。
He was left naked in the cold, in the dark, with music blasting.
他赤身裸体地待在寒冷、黑暗中，音乐声震耳欲聋。
He didn't see the sun for two years, except in the brief moments when he was transported between buildings.
除了在建筑物之间穿梭的短暂时刻外，他已经两年没有见到太阳了。
He had barely any human contact, just his guards, his interrogators, and his torturers.
他几乎没有任何人际接触，只有他的看守、审讯者和拷打者。
One of the reasons why Majid wanted me to understand his respect for the CIA was so I would understand how he felt about his treatment at Guantánamo to contrast it.
马吉德希望我理解他对中央情报局的尊重的原因之一是，这样我就能理解他对关塔那摩监狱待遇的感受，并与之对比。
Because for Majid, his time in Camp 7 was worse.
因为对于马吉德来说，他在七号营的时光更糟糕。
He wasn't being interrogated anymore.
他不再受到审讯。
Sometimes the FBI would pay him a visit, ask him some questions.
有时联邦调查局会拜访他，问他一些问题。
But that's it.
但仅此而已。
So the cruelty at Guantánamo had no purpose.
因此，关塔那摩的残酷行为没有任何目的。
CIA torture was like surgical.
中央情报局的酷刑就像外科手术一样。
OK, for a few hours, a few months or whatever, they're trying to-- there's a reason behind it.
好吧，在几个小时、几个月或其他时间里，他们试图这样做——这背后是有原因的。
They're doing it.
他们正在做。
I get it, why they're doing it.
我明白了，他们为什么这么做。
But there was no justification of what they did in Camp 7.
但他们在 7 号营地的所作所为没有任何正当理由。
Zero.
零。
It's like just hanging a cat for 10 days, just for the sake of it.
这就像只是为了吊死一只猫十天。
It's just the nature, sadistic nature that I could not understand in Camp 7.
这就是七号营地的本质，虐待狂的本质，这是我无法理解的。
I try not to think about it, honestly.
老实说，我试着不去想它。
It was the lowest point in my life.
那是我人生中的最低点。
Compared to the CIA, the guards in Camp 7 could be brutally childish.
与中央情报局相比，七号营的警卫简直是幼稚到了极点。
Majid says they put metal and stones into his food.
马吉德说，他们在他的食物中加入了金属和石头。
When he didn't return his tray in protest, they shaved his head as punishment and then took his tray altogether, just scooped the food into his hands.
当他没有归还托盘以示抗议时，他们剃了他的头作为惩罚，然后把他的托盘完全拿走了，只是把食物舀到他手里。
When the International Committee of the Red Cross gave him a photo of his three-year-old daughter, the first time he learned he had a daughter, a guard took the photo away from him.
当红十字国际委员会给他一张他三岁女儿的照片时，他第一次得知自己有一个女儿，一名警卫从他手中拿走了照片。
He says he went crazy, kicked at the door, tried to break the security camera.
他说他疯了，踢门，试图打破安全摄像头。
And then there were the noises, constant noises, from the guards knocking on his cell at all hours of the day and night, opening and shutting the prison doors.
然后就是狱警不分昼夜地敲他的牢房、打开和关闭监狱门的噪音，持续不断的噪音。
The building itself made noise.
建筑物本身发出噪音。
There were high frequency whining sounds from the air conditioners and the security cameras.
空调和安全摄像头发出高频呜呜声。
There were vibrations.
有震动。
Majid was in isolation.
马吉德处于隔离状态。
No one to talk to, no distractions, no way to sleep.
没有人可以说话，没有干扰，无法入睡。
It all seemed intentional.
这一切似乎都是故意的。
When he talks about that time today, it still makes him upset that the guards at Gitmo drove him to the brink, to the point where he felt like he was losing his mind, just to mess with him.
今天，当他谈到那次事件时，仍然让他感到不安，关塔那摩监狱的警卫把他逼到了崩溃的边缘，让他觉得自己失去了理智，只是为了惹恼他。
I remember pulling my beard, right?
我记得拉过我的胡子，对吗？
Literally just pulling and banging my head against the wall.
从字面上看，只是把我的头拉到墙上并撞到墙上。
Literally?
字面上地？
Literally?
字面上地？
Majid Khan Literally.
马吉德汗字面意思。
And to this, I'll show you.
为此，我将向您展示。
This is the artery I chew.
这是我咀嚼的动脉。
I chewed that artery right here.
我就在这里咬断了那条动脉。
He was so distressed and so desperate for them to treat him better that he chewed through the vein in the crook of his arm.
他非常痛苦，非常渴望他们能更好地对待他，以至于他咬破了臂弯里的静脉。
It was the only way he could get them to pay attention to the pain he was in.
这是他能让他们关注他所承受的痛苦的唯一方法。
They had to respond.
他们必须做出回应。
His arm was gushing blood.
他的手臂正在涌出鲜血。
Had to take him to the medical clinic, which meant they had to write reports, which the camp commanders would have to see.
必须带他去诊所，这意味着他们必须写报告，营地指挥官必须看到这些报告。
You had to act like a maniac to prove to them there is a problem.
你必须表现得像个疯子才能向他们证明存在问题。
Majid said other Camp 7 prisoners did the same kind of thing.
马吉德说，七号营的其他囚犯也做了同样的事情。
Majid was at Guantánamo for over a year before he met with his attorneys.
马吉德在关塔那摩待了一年多，然后才与律师会面。
He hadn't been charged with anything yet.
他还没有被指控任何罪名。
It was possible he'd be held indefinitely or charged with crimes that could carry a life sentence.
他有可能被无限期监禁或被指控犯有可能被判处无期徒刑的罪行。
He was barely keeping it together in Camp 7.
他在七号营勉强维持住一切。
He wanted out-- of Guantánamo, of captivity.
他想离开关塔那摩，摆脱囚禁。
He wanted to be with his family.
他想和家人在一起。
He told his attorneys he would take a plea deal, admit to his crimes, cooperate with the government, as long as he got the opportunity to speak in public about the torture.
他告诉他的律师，只要他有机会公开谈论酷刑，他就会接受认罪协议，承认自己的罪行，并与政府合作。
That's what I asked for.
这就是我所要求的。
That was my number-one goal.
这是我的第一目标。
Allow me to speak.
请允许我发言。
Let me tell the world what they did to me.
让我告诉全世界他们对我做了什么。
He was pissed.
他很生气。
Sure, he understood why the CIA had tortured him, but he also knew it was against the rules.
当然，他明白中央情报局为什么折磨他，但他也知道这是违反规定的。
I was mad at that time.
我当时很生气。
I was really mad.
我真的很生气。
I was like, you got to pay for this.
我当时想，你必须为此付出代价。
I'm going to tell the whole world about it.
我要把这件事告诉全世界。
So, revenge-- but also, there was a practical reason he wanted to talk.
所以，报复——而且，他想说话也是有实际原因的。
He figured he could use it as leverage in his own legal case.
他认为他可以在自己的法律案件中利用它作为筹码。
It was a thought he'd had back in the black sites.
这是他在黑色站点时就有的想法。
Fun fact, the CIA told me, Majid, we can't let you go.
有趣的是，中央情报局告诉我，马吉德，我们不能让你走。
I was like, why not?
我当时想，为什么不呢？
They said, look, we think if we let you go, you speak fluent English, and then you're going to tell the world how American fucked me up.
他们说，听着，我们认为如果我们让你走，你会说流利的英语，然后你就会告诉世界美国人是如何搞砸我的。
And you're going to end up in Oprah show or something.
你最终会出现在奥普拉脱口秀之类的节目中。
And that's the problem.
这就是问题所在。
It was very honest people, when it comes to the-- they didn't hide it, that was the problem was.
这是非常诚实的人，当谈到这一点时，他们没有隐瞒，这就是问题所在。
It's not-- I understood it was not what I did.
这不是——我知道这不是我所做的。
It's so much what they did to me.
他们对我做了这么多。
Dana Chivvis Majid guessed that if a jury heard what the CIA had done to him firsthand, they would give him a lighter sentence.
达纳·奇夫维斯·马吉德猜测，如果陪审团亲眼目睹中央情报局对他所做的一切，他们会给他从轻的刑罚。
Deep down, I knew that this was the silver bullet for me.
在内心深处，我知道这对我来说是灵丹妙药。
Well, what do you mean, it was the silver bullet for you?
好吧，你的意思是，这对你来说是灵丹妙药？
I mean, it was a ticket out of jail card, basically.
我的意思是，这基本上是一张出狱卡。
It's like you can't put a person, like, 50 years in prison and plus torture, right?
就像你不能把一个人判处 50 年监禁并加上酷刑，对吧？
So it just, from my perspective, is that this was the only shot I have.
所以，从我的角度来看，这是我唯一的机会。
Dana Chivvis He had lived in the United States long enough to absorb an American sense of justice-- from watching Law and Order, from his high school teachers.
达纳·奇夫维斯（Dana Chivvis） 他在美国生活了足够长的时间，从观看《法律与秩序》、从他的高中老师那里吸收了美国人的正义感。
He calls it a "side effect of being American." He was making a bet that the American public, by way of an American jury, would have the same sense of American justice that he had.
他称之为“作为美国人的副作用”。他打赌，通过美国陪审团，美国公众将拥有与他相同的美国正义感。
The other prisoners in Camp 7 with him, Majid says they did not understand this.
马吉德说，与他一起在 7 号营地的其他囚犯并不明白这一点。
It's remarkable to hear Majid talk about these other prisoners in Camp 7 itself, a place that was so secret the government didn't even acknowledge its existence until 2008.
听到马吉德谈论 7 号营中的其他囚犯真是太了不起了，这个地方非常秘密，政府甚至直到 2008 年才承认它的存在。
No reporter has ever been there.
没有记者去过那里。
And then there's Majid, the only Camp 7 prisoner to ever leave Guantánamo.
然后是马吉德，他是唯一离开关塔那摩七号营的囚犯。
So he's really the only person who can speak freely about what was happening inside those highly classified walls.
所以他确实是唯一一个可以自由谈论这些高度机密的墙内发生的事情的人。
The other prisoners with him were considered to be the actual worst of the worst-- high-level terrorist leaders, plotters, and soldiers like KSM.
与他在一起的其他囚犯被认为是最糟糕的人中最糟糕的——高级恐怖分子领导人、策划者和像 KSM 这样的士兵。
There was also Abu Zubaydah, who allegedly ran his own extremist network, associated with al-Qaeda.
还有阿布·祖巴伊达（Abu Zubaydah），据称他经营着自己的极端主义网络，与基地组织有联系。
Another guy called Hambali, who was accused of orchestrating the 2003 Marriott bombing in Jakarta, the plot Majid delivered money for.
另一个名叫汉巴利的人被指控策划了 2003 年雅加达万豪酒店爆炸案，马吉德为这起事件提供了资金。
And then there was Majid.
然后是马吉德。
I was a greenhorn.
我是个新手。
Dana Chivvis The other detainees were older than Majid.
Dana Chivvis 其他被拘留者的年龄都比马吉德大。
He was only 23 when he was captured.
他被捕时年仅23岁。
Plus, he points out he hadn't done any hardcore jihadi training at the camps in Afghanistan.
另外，他指出他没有在阿富汗的营地进行过任何核心的圣战训练。
He hadn't shot an AK-47, or lived in a cave, or sworn an oath to bin Laden.
他没有开过AK-47，也没有住在山洞里，也没有向本·拉登宣誓。
I was the kid on the block, right?
我就是那个街区里的孩子，对吧？
Everybody was concerned about me because they understood that this kid has not been to Afghanistan.
每个人都关心我，因为他们知道这个孩子没有去过阿富汗。
He doesn't know much about Islam.
他对伊斯兰教了解不多。
He doesn't know.
他不知道。
They were worried about me.
他们很担心我。
It's like, we've got to take care of this kid, you know?
就像，我们必须照顾这个孩子，你知道吗？
And then they did.
然后他们就这么做了。
I mean, honest to God, they did.
我的意思是，对上帝说实话，他们做到了。
Otherwise, I don't think I would have made it.
否则，我想我不会成功。
It was so terrible in Guantánamo Bay.
关塔那摩湾的情况太可怕了。
Majid wanted to help them, these men he calls his prison brothers.
马吉德想帮助他们，他称这些人为他的监狱兄弟。
And because he was a little bit American, he understood something they didn't.
因为他有一点美国人血统，所以他理解一些他们不理解的东西。
Just as Majid believed torture could be legal currency in his own case, he figured it could be helpful in theirs, too.
正如马吉德相信酷刑在他自己的案件中可以成为合法货币一样，他认为这对他们的案件也可能有帮助。
So--
所以——
He undertook a reporting project to document the extent of everyone's torture, on a spreadsheet he drew by hand.
他开展了一个报告项目，在他亲手绘制的电子表格上记录每个人遭受酷刑的程度。
I wrote down all the methods that I knew were used after talking to other detainees, like waterboarding, hanging, hunger, made to sit, made to stand.
在与其他被拘留者交谈后，我写下了我所知道的所有方法，比如水刑、绞刑、饥饿、强迫坐、强迫站。
I just made the whole list on the left side.
我刚刚在左侧列出了整个列表。
And then I put all the detainee names on the rest of the page.
然后我把所有被拘留者的名字写在页面的其余部分。
Not everyone wanted to talk about the torture.
并不是每个人都想谈论酷刑。
Some of the prisoners felt that it was better left between them and God.
一些囚犯觉得最好由他们和上帝来决定。
Honestly, I had to drag it out of them.
老实说，我不得不把它从他们身上拖出来。
It was not that easy to even convince some of the brothers to tell me about that.
甚至说服一些弟兄告诉我这件事也不是那么容易的。
I said, look, I'm just doing this project.
我说，看，我只是在做这个项目。
Do it for me.
为我做吧。
They said, OK, OK.
他们说，好吧，好吧。
And then they start telling me all about that.
然后他们开始告诉我这一切。
I think the brother didn't understand because most of them didn't live in the States.
我想这位兄弟不明白，因为他们大多数人不住在美国。
And they didn't understand how powerful-- the torture could be an asset in their legal case.
他们不明白酷刑有多么强大——在他们的法律案件中可以成为一种财富。
Right?
正确的？
And I said, look, you need to-- you've got to put it down.
我说，听着，你需要——你必须把它放下。
This could be a ticket out of here.
这可能是一张离开这里的票。
And a lot of brothers were pretty naive about this legal system because on their own experience, they had a legal system in Arab countries, which is dictatorship.
而很多戒友对于这个法律体系还是很天真的，因为根据他们的亲身经历，他们在阿拉伯国家有一个法律体系，那就是独裁。
So--
所以——
So it doesn't matter.
所以没关系。
Majid Khan Every day we get torture in Egypt, Libya.
马吉德汗在埃及、利比亚每天都会遭受酷刑。
Yeah, what's the big deal?
是啊，有什么大不了的？
No, this is America.
不，这是美国。
You actually do have rights here, even though it doesn't seem like it right now.
你确实在这里拥有权利，尽管现在看起来并非如此。
But there's a system out there.
但那里有一个系统。
Things had gotten a bit more relaxed in Camp 7 by then.
那时七号营地的情况已经变得轻松一些了。
The prisoners could talk to each other through the bean holes-- the mail-like slots in their cell doors-- which the guards left open for them.
囚犯们可以通过豆洞（牢房门上像邮件一样的槽）互相交谈，看守为他们敞开了豆洞。
Majid would ask the other prisoners questions.
马吉德会问其他囚犯问题。
I said, OK, how many times waterboarding?
我说，好吧，水刑多少次？
How many days?
几天？
OK, I'll remember exactly.
好的，我会记住的。
Three months, OK.
三个月，可以。
He interviewed them outside during rec time.
他在休息时间在外面采访了他们。
Well, he's working out elliptical.
嗯，他正在椭圆机上锻炼。
I'm working out, and I'm doing push-ups, whatever.
我正在锻炼，我正在做俯卧撑，等等。
At first, he took a legal pad with him into the rec yard.
起初，他带着一本便条本走进了娱乐场。
But then, he says the guards caught on, said nobody could take legal pads into the rec yard anymore.
但后来，他说警卫明白了，说没有人可以再把合法便笺本带进娱乐场了。
I said, OK, no problem.
我说，好吧，没问题。
I'm not going anywhere.
我哪儿也不去。
I'll get time with the brother.
我会抽出时间陪弟弟的。
I'll interview him.
我会采访他。
So I would sometime memorize it.
所以有时我会记住它。
And then I'll go back to my cell, and I write it down.
然后我会回到我的牢房，把它写下来。
So it took a long time to complete that sheet.
所以花了很长时间才完成那张纸。
He worked on it for months.
他为此工作了几个月。
Some of the stories he heard defied categorization.
他听到的一些故事无法归类。
So then I had to categorize in a way that it falls in that category, right?
那么我必须以某种方式对其进行分类，使其属于该类别，对吧？
Like Nashiri had a unique experience, like that he was hanged for maybe 18 hours or so.
就像 Nashiri 有一次独特的经历一样，他被绞死了大约 18 个小时左右。
And they call it-- I don't know-- like two point restrictions.
他们称之为——我不知道——就像两点限制。
Like, your hands are tied up, and your legs are tied up.
比如，你的手被绑起来，你的腿也被绑起来。
Right?
正确的？
So there's two points of restraint.
所以有两点要克制。
And his experience was that the restraint is one leg and two hands on top, and then another leg to the wall.
而他的经验是，约束是一条腿，两只手放在上面，然后另一条腿靠在墙上。
So he's like just like this--
所以他就像这样——
Kind of scissored out-- Majid Khan Scissored.
有点像剪刀——马吉德汗剪刀。
--with his legs.
——用他的腿。
Majid Khan Yeah, so he can't move right, left.
马吉德汗：是的，所以他不能左右移动。
So that was unique.
所以这是独一无二的。
I just remember it was unique.
我只记得它很独特。
I didn't even put it in there.
我什至没有把它放在那里。
I was like, OK, I made a side note.
我当时想，好吧，我做了一个旁注。
One of his interviews in particular stuck with him.
他的一次采访给他留下了特别深刻的印象。
Mustafa al Hawsawi, one of the 9/11 defendants accused of sending money to the 9/11 hijackers.
Mustafa al Hawsawi，9/11 被告之一，被指控向 9/11 劫机者汇款。
I asked him, what was the worst torture?
我问他，最严重的折磨是什么？
And he said, before I answer that, he said, I'll tell you what was the best torture for me.
他说，在我回答之前，他说，我会告诉你对我来说最好的折磨是什么。
And I said, what does that mean?
我说，这是什么意思？
He said, look, the best one, when they put me in a coffin and they filled it with water, right?
他说，看，最好的一个，当他们把我放进棺材并装满水时，对吧？
And you can just literally just-- or they put me inside of a box with the bugs and everything.
你可以只是——或者他们把我放在一个装有虫子和所有东西的盒子里。
He said, I loved it.
他说，我喜欢它。
I said, why?
我说，为什么？
He said, that was the only time I felt that I was not naked.
他说，那是我唯一一次感觉到自己没有赤身裸体。
For him, being naked in front of a man or woman, that was the most torture to him.
对于他来说，在男人或女人面前赤身裸体，就是对他最大的折磨。
By the end of the project, Majid felt he had done something great.
项目结束时，马吉德觉得自己做了一件伟大的事情。
He had a record of the torture the United States government was so intent on keeping secret.
他有一份美国政府极力保密的酷刑记录。
I thought that this could be the breakthrough that we were looking for in our lives, that it could alleviate some of the pain that the camp were doing to us.
我认为这可能是我们在生活中寻找的突破，它可以减轻营地给我们带来的一些痛苦。
He kept the spreadsheet in his cell, hoping to share it in court someday.
他将电子表格保存在自己的牢房里，希望有一天能在法庭上分享。
Majid's attorney spent years working on a plea deal.
马吉德的律师花了数年时间致力于达成认罪协议。
Finally, in 2012, they reached an agreement.
最终，在2012年，他们达成了协议。
Majid would plead guilty to five charges, including murder, conspiracy, and spying, and he would cooperate with the prosecution, help them in their cases against the other prisoners.
马吉德将承认五项指控，包括谋杀、共谋和间谍罪，他将与检方合作，帮助他们起诉其他囚犯。
In return, he would get a reduced sentence, a maximum of 19 years.
作为回报，他将获得最多 19 年的减刑。
And, crucially for Majid, he would finally get to speak to tell the story of his torture in court.
而且，对马吉德来说至关重要的是，他终于可以在法庭上讲述自己遭受酷刑的故事了。
Majid talked to the other Camp 7 prisoners about the plea deal.
马吉德与 7 号营的其他囚犯谈论了认罪协议。
He told me some of them were against it, but KSM gave him his blessing.
他告诉我，他们中的一些人反对，但 KSM 给予了他祝福。
But he said, yeah, I'm happy for you.
但他说，是的，我为你感到高兴。
Because he told me, look, I feel sorry for you.
因为他告诉我，看，我为你感到难过。
I've killed 3,000 people.
我已经杀了三千人了
Who the fuck are you?
你他妈是谁？
You're nobody in the chain of command.
你不是指挥系统中的任何人。
I don't know how Majid cooperated, what information he gave the American government to fulfill his end of the bargain.
我不知道马吉德是如何合作的，他向美国政府提供了哪些信息来履行他的诺言。
He told me it wasn't much, but a prosecutor in the case told me that he did confess to plots the United States government didn't even know about yet.
他告诉我这并不多，但该案的一名检察官告诉我，他确实承认了美国政府甚至还不知道的阴谋。
After a decade of cooperation, it was time for Majid to be sentenced in front of a judge.
经过十年的合作，马吉德是时候在法官面前被判刑了。
But before he did that, he and his defense team had one more card to play.
但在此之前，他和他的防守团队还有一张牌要打。
I guess you could call it the torture card.
我想你可以称它为酷刑卡。
They would turn the years of captivity and abuse in the black sites to Majid's advantage.
他们将把多年来在黑色场所的囚禁和虐待变成马吉德的优势。
According to the rules of the military commissions, and to Majid's plea agreement, Majid could call witnesses to support his case that he should get leniency.
根据军事委员会的规则和马吉德的认罪协议，马吉德可以传唤证人支持他的案件，他应该得到宽大处理。
By then, many of the darkest details of the CIA's torture program had been revealed-- waterboarding, the destruction of videotapes of the torture, even the death of a prisoner at the salt pit, a black site where Majid was once held.
到那时，中央情报局酷刑计划的许多最黑暗的细节已经被揭露——水刑、酷刑录像带的销毁，甚至一名囚犯在盐坑（马吉德曾经被关押的黑色场所）死亡。
But what were still a secret-- are still a closely guarded secret to this day-- are the identities of the torturers themselves.
但至今仍然是一个秘密——至今仍然是一个严密保守的秘密——施虐者本人的身份。
Majid's lawyers knew that the CIA did not want those names revealed-- ever, so they made that part of their strategy.
马吉德的律师知道中央情报局永远不希望这些名字被泄露，所以他们把这作为他们战略的一部分。
His attorneys submitted a list of 115 people they wanted to call to the stand.
他的律师提交了一份他们想要传唤出庭的 115 人名单。
Some of the names were far-fetched.
有些名字是牵强的。
George Bush was on it, along with Condoleezza Rice.
乔治·布什和康多莉扎·赖斯都参与其中。
Some were lower level, like Camp 7 commanders and FBI agents who spent time with Majid at Guantánamo.
有些级别较低，例如 7 号营指挥官和联邦调查局特工，他们曾在关塔那摩与马吉德共度时光。
But most importantly, the list included the people who were involved in the CIA's rendition, detention, and interrogation program, the torture program, the people who conceived of it, who ran it, and the people who tortured Majid.
但最重要的是，这份名单包括参与中央情报局引渡、拘留和审讯计划、酷刑计划的人、该计划的构思者、执行者以及酷刑马吉德的人。
Majid and his defense team wanted to put the entire government apparatus responsible for the torture program on the stand.
马吉德和他的辩护团队希望让负责酷刑计划的整个政府机构出庭作证。
Unsurprisingly, a legal battle ensued.
不出所料，一场法律战随之而来。
After years of motions and responses to motions, and bickering, and the intrusion of COVID, the judge finally ruled, said Majid could ask for time off his sentence because of the torture, and he could call some of the CIA witnesses.
经过多年的动议和对动议的回应、争吵以及新冠病毒的入侵，法官最终做出裁决，称马吉德可以因遭受酷刑而请求减刑，并且他可以传唤一些中央情报局的证人。
It was a major decision in Majid's favor.
这是一个对马吉德有利的重大决定。
The government's hands were tied.
政府的手脚被绑住了。
They were never going to be able to produce the CIA witnesses.
他们永远无法提供中央情报局的证人。
The CIA would make sure of that.
中央情报局会确保这一点。
So instead, the two sides agreed.
于是，双方反而同意了。
Majid would drop the whole witness testimony thing if the government would shave eight years off his sentence.
如果政府将马吉德的刑期减刑八年，他就会放弃整个证人证词的事情。
Eight years-- it was a lot.
八年——很长了。
Plus, the judge gave Majid another year off to ding the prosecution for discovery violation.
此外，法官还给马吉德一年的刑期，以指控检方违反证据开示罪。
So that made nine years total.
这样总共就有九年了。
I mean, shaving off nine years, you can imagine how desperate were they, 'cause they know they were fucked.
我的意思是，减去九年的时间，你可以想象他们有多么绝望，因为他们知道自己完蛋了。
What this meant, if all went according to plan, was that Majid would get out just four months after the sentencing hearing.
这意味着，如果一切按计划进行，马吉德将在量刑听证会后四个月后出狱。
And he would finally get to read his statement in court about what the American government had done to him, which he and his attorneys would write carefully to make sure the government couldn't classify it.
他最终会在法庭上宣读他关于美国政府对他所做的事情的声明，他和他的律师会仔细地写下声明，以确保政府无法将其保密。
The one thing he wouldn't get?
他得不到的一件事是什么？
He wouldn't get to talk about the torture other prisoners had undergone at CIA black sites-- everything he'd recorded in that spreadsheet-- because that might give the government a reason to classify his statement.
他不会谈论其他囚犯在中央情报局黑点遭受的酷刑——他在电子表格中记录的一切——因为这可能会让政府有理由对他的陈述进行分类。
What Majid could do was tell his own experience as completely as possible.
马吉德能做的就是尽可能完整地讲述自己的经历。
That was the best way he could represent what they'd all gone through.
这是他能够代表他们所经历的一切的最好方式。
Nearly two decades after Majid was captured at his brother's apartment in Karachi, his day in court was finally scheduled.
马吉德在卡拉奇哥哥的公寓被捕近二十年后，他出庭的日子终于安排好了。
According to the rules of the military commissions, a jury would be present for Majid's sentencing hearing.
根据军事委员会的规则，陪审团将出席马吉德的量刑听证会。
They would be told Majid had pled guilty.
他们会被告知马吉德已认罪。
They would be told about his crimes-- the money for the hotel bombing, the assassination attempt on Musharraf, his work for al-Qaeda.
他们会被告知他的罪行——酒店爆炸案的资金、对穆沙拉夫的暗杀企图、他为基地组织所做的工作。
But-- and I know how strange this sounds-- they would not be told that Majid and the government had already come to an agreement.
但是——我知道这听起来有多奇怪——他们不会被告知马吉德和政府已经达成协议。
Instead, they'd be told to consider Majid's crimes alongside whatever Majid had to say for himself and come up with an appropriate sentence.
相反，他们会被告知要考虑马吉德的罪行以及马吉德为自己所说的一切，并提出适当的判决。
Whatever the jury came back with, whether it was a short sentence or long, it wouldn't have a material effect on Majid's case.
无论陪审团做出什么裁决，无论是短刑还是长刑，都不会对马吉德的案件产生实质性影响。
His sentence was set.
他的刑期已定。
But their decision would have symbolic meaning.
但他们的决定具有象征意义。
This would be the first time a prisoner of the CIA's black sites would speak about his treatment in public.
这将是中央情报局黑色站点的囚犯第一次在公开场合谈论他的待遇。
There might never be another reckoning for the crimes of that era-- not in a legal way, at least.
对那个时代的罪行可能永远不会再有一次清算——至少不会以合法的方式。
The jury would weigh the two ledgers-- what Majid did against what we did to Majid-- and decide for Majid, for the country, where justice lies.
陪审团将权衡两份账本——马吉德所做的与我们对马吉德所做的——并为马吉德、为正义所在的国家做出决定。
It's what Majid had been hoping for so many years.
这是马吉德多年来一直希望的。
But now that it was finally happening, he worried that he was too late.
但现在事情终于发生了，他担心自己已经太晚了。
It was 2021.
那是 2021 年。
The country had moved on.
这个国家已经向前迈进了。
The existential battle of the day was with COVID, not al-Qaeda.
当今的生死存亡之战是与新冠病毒的斗争，而不是与基地组织的斗争。
Majid worried that the only reason the government was letting him talk was that nobody really cared anymore.
马吉德担心政府让他讲话的唯一原因是没人真正关心。
I think at this stage, I think CIA and the Americans know that Americans lost interest, right?
我认为现阶段，我认为中央情报局和美国人知道美国人失去了兴趣，对吧？
Honestly, being really pragmatic about it, they lost interest.
老实说，由于非常务实，他们失去了兴趣。
They know it happens.
他们知道这会发生。
Bad shit happened.
糟糕的事情发生了。
And it's almost like they had created a tolerance for this that is almost-- how do you say-- desensitized to torture now.
就好像他们已经创造了一种宽容，现在几乎——你怎么说——对酷刑麻木不仁了。
And it's a fact.
这是事实。
And I think that's what the CIA is like, fuck it.
我认为中央情报局就是这样的，操他妈的。
Let him speak.
让他说话。
I don't think they care anymore, honestly.
老实说，我认为他们不再关心了。
What's the big deal?
有什么大不了的？
Waterboarding?
水刑？
We already heard it 100 times.
我们已经听过 100 遍了。
Dana Chivvis.
达纳·奇夫维斯.
Coming up, Majid finally gets his day in court.
即将到来，马吉德终于在法庭上度过了他的一天。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
This American Life.
这美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program, "Two Ledgers." We're playing an episode from the new season of Serial, which is all about Guantánamo.
今天的节目是《两本账本》。我们正在播放新一季《连续剧》中的一集，内容都是关于关塔那摩的。
Dana Chivvis picks up the story of Majid Khan where she left off, on the day of his sentencing hearing.
达纳·奇夫维斯 (Dana Chivvis) 在马吉德·汗 (Majid Khan) 量刑听证会当天，继续讲述马吉德·汗 (Majid Khan) 的故事。
The courtroom at Guantanamo is a long, windowless rectangle with six rows of defense tables on the left, mirrored by four rows of prosecution tables on the right.
关塔那摩的法庭是一个没有窗户的长方形，左边有六排辩护桌，右边有四排起诉桌。
It looks like any other sterile courtroom, except in the back, there's a gallery separated by a thick wall of glass and a 40-second audio delay.
它看起来就像任何其他无菌法庭，除了在后面，有一个由厚玻璃墙隔开的画廊和 40 秒的音频延迟。
That's where the press and the public sit.
那是媒体和公众坐的地方。
On this day, October 28, 2021, that's where Majid's father and sister are seated.
2021 年 10 月 28 日这一天，马吉德的父亲和妹妹就坐在那里。
Majid had been allowed to see them earlier that morning for the first time in 19 years.
那天早上早些时候，马吉德被允许见到他们，这是 19 年来的第一次。
Did anything surprise you in that meeting about either one of them or about how you felt or how they acted?
在那次会议中，对于他们中的任何一个人，或者对于你的感受或他们的行为，有什么让你感到惊讶的吗？
Well, the first thing, I was like, they're short.
嗯，第一件事，我想，它们很矮。
I was like, did I get tall, or is like-- or they're shorter?
我当时想，我是变高了，还是——或者他们变矮了？
'Cause I thought they were about my size.
因为我以为它们和我的尺寸差不多。
This hearing would be the first time they learned the details of Majid's imprisonment.
这次听证会是他们第一次了解马吉德入狱的细节。
There is no publicly available recording of this hearing, but I do have the transcripts, and I've spoken with several people who were there that day.
这次听证会没有公开的录音，但我有笔录，而且我已经与当天在场的几个人交谈过。
Majid sits at the front of the courtroom at a defendant's table with four of his attorneys.
马吉德和他的四名律师坐在法庭前面的被告席旁。
Court starts at 9:06 AM.
法庭于上午 9:06 开始。
The lawyers spend most of the day selecting the jury-- not a jury of Majid's peers, not even civilians.
律师们一天的大部分时间都在选择陪审团——不是由马吉德的同行组成的陪审团，甚至不是平民。
In this military court, the jury consists of eight senior officers from across the armed forces, which, if you were once in al-Qaeda, tough room.
在这个军事法庭上，陪审团由来自武装部队的八名高级军官组成，如果你曾经在基地组织工作过，那么陪审团将是一个艰难的房间。
The sentencing proceedings don't really get going until after 5:00.
量刑程序直到5:00之后才真正开始。
A prosecutor reads the stipulation of fact to the jury, the document that describes in cold legalese all the crimes Majid has admitted to.
检察官向陪审团宣读了事实规定，该文件以冰冷的法律术语描述了马吉德承认的所有罪行。
It's dispassionate, but detailed, and it's damning.
它是冷静的，但详细的，而且是该死的。
The story of a young man given asylum by the United States who turns his back on the country and his family to join the terrorists who attacked us, with hopes of attacking us again.
一个获得美国庇护的年轻人的故事，他背弃了国家和家人，加入了袭击我们的恐怖分子，并希望再次袭击我们。
After the prosecutor finishes reading the stipulation of fact, they break for dinner.
检察官读完事实规定后，他们休息吃晚饭。
And then finally, at around 7:40 PM, Majid, in a black suit and tie his lawyers bought him, steps up to the podium, 39-page statement in hand, and faces the military jury in their dress uniforms.
最后，在晚上 7 点 40 分左右，马吉德穿着律师给他买的黑色西装和领带，走上讲台，手里拿着 39 页的声明，面对着穿着制服的军事陪审团。
He's nervous.
他很紧张。
This is the moment he's been thinking about for 18 years.
这是他十八年来一直在思考的时刻。
But it's late.
但已经晚了。
He's tired.
他累了。
His back is killing him.
他的背痛得要了他的命。
The judge says, "And, Mr. Khan, you may proceed." Majid proceeds.
法官说：“汗先生，您可以继续了。”马吉德继续说道。
"I begin in name of God.
“我以上帝的名义开始。
My name is Majid Khan.
我的名字是马吉德·汗。
And for the last 15 years, I have been incarcerated at Naval Station Guantánamo Bay, or Gitmo."
在过去 15 年里，我一直被监禁在关塔那摩湾海军基地，即关塔那摩监狱。”
Majid read some of his statement for me.
马吉德为我宣读了他的一些声明。
"I have a story that I have waited almost two decades to tell, so I want to start by thanking you all for taking the time to listen to my statement.
“我有一个故事，我等了近二十年才讲出来，所以我首先要感谢大家花时间听我的发言。
Today, I stand before you, meek and humble, humble and meek, asking for you to listen to my story with a sensitive and compassionate ear."
今天，我站在你们面前，温柔而谦虚，谦虚而温柔，请求你们用敏感而富有同情心的耳朵来听我的故事。”
Majid takes responsibility for his crimes and apologizes to his family.
马吉德对自己的罪行承担责任，并向家人道歉。
He explains to the jury how he ended up in al-Qaeda, how, after returning to Baltimore in 2002, his family tried to keep him from going back to Pakistan because they were afraid of what he'd gotten involved in there, how his father hid his travel documents, how he lied to his father to get them back.
他向陪审团解释了他是如何加入基地组织的，2002 年返回巴尔的摩后，他的家人如何试图阻止他返回巴基斯坦，因为他们担心他在那里卷入什么，他的父亲如何隐藏他的旅行证件，他如何向父亲撒谎以取回这些证件。
"He's here in court today.
“他今天出庭了。
I can see him.
我能看到他。
I want to tell him, Baba, I'm sorry.
我想告诉他，爸爸，对不起。
I'm very sorry."
我很抱歉。”
And then Majid recounts everything the CIA did to him in detail for two hours, hoping that by saying what happened to him personally, he can overcome the apathy to torture, the disgust for al-Qaeda.
然后马吉德用两个小时详细讲述了中央情报局对他所做的一切，希望通过讲述他个人的经历，可以克服对酷刑的冷漠和对基地组织的厌恶。
Because it's one thing to read about torture on a page, and another to be faced with the person who endured it, 20 feet away, describing it to you.
因为在纸上读到有关酷刑的内容是一回事，而在 20 英尺外面对遭受酷刑的人向您描述酷刑又是另一回事。
He starts the day he was captured, picking up where the stipulation of fact drops off.
他从他被俘的那一天开始，从事实规定的缺失开始。
He describes how the Pakistani authorities took him to a lockup, interrogated him, how there were Americans there, too, how the Pakistanis beat him-- the first time he was ever beaten.
他描述了巴基斯坦当局如何把他带到看守所，审问他，那里也有美国人，巴基斯坦人如何殴打他——这是他第一次被殴打。
"I was frequently hooded and strapped into metal boots.
“我经常戴着兜帽，绑在金属靴子上。
Now, these metal boots were-- I call them ski metal boots, about this high.
现在，这些金属靴子——我称之为滑雪金属靴子，大约这么高。
They would make me stand on those metal boots, and they are punching me and beating me up.
他们会让我站在那些金属靴子上，他们对我拳打脚踢。
I remember fearing that if I had fell over forward, there was no doubt my leg would snap.
我记得我担心如果我向前摔倒，毫无疑问我的腿会折断。
I was so afraid of what would happen next.
我非常害怕接下来会发生什么。
I remember an older American, a US interrogator, who would tell me they were not buying my story.
我记得一位年长的美国人，一位美国审讯员，他会告诉我他们不相信我的故事。
Quote, 'You're peeing on my shoes and telling me it's raining,' end of quote.
引用，“你在我的鞋子上撒尿，并告诉我正在下雨”，引用结束。
This man would frequently threaten me, saying, like, 'Son, we're going to take care of you.
这个男人经常威胁我，说，‘儿子，我们会照顾你的。
We are going to send you to a place that you cannot imagine.
我们将带你去一个你无法想象的地方。
We'll take you somewhere and make you talk,' end of quote.
我们会带你去某个地方并让你说话，”引文结尾。
He threatened my family, and he threatened to rape my sister."
他威胁我的家人，还威胁要强奸我的妹妹。”
Majid tells the jury about the day his Pakistani guard said he was going home, but instead, he was taken to an airport and handed over to the CIA.
马吉德告诉陪审团，那天他的巴基斯坦警卫说他要回家，但他却被带到机场并移交给中央情报局。
How the Americans cut his clothes off him, gave him an enema, put him in a diaper, and duct-taped goggles and earmuffs to his head.
美国人如何把他的衣服剪掉，给他灌肠，给他穿上尿布，并用胶带将护目镜和耳罩绑在他的头上。
And then they flew him to another country.
然后他们把他飞到另一个国家。
He describes the black site he calls "the American torture place." The windows of the American torture place were covered in cloth, and there was techno music blasting.
他描述了这个被他称为“美国酷刑场所”的黑色场所。美国酷刑场的窗户都用布遮盖着，还播放着电子音乐。
An interrogator in a black mask asked him questions about al-Qaeda plots in the United States and at Heathrow Airport.
一名戴着黑色面具的审讯员向他询问了有关美国和希思罗机场基地组织阴谋的问题。
And when he wasn't satisfied with Majid's answers, he counted down on his fingers from 10.
当他对马吉德的回答不满意时，他就用手指从10开始倒数。
At zero, a guard grabbed the chains around Majid's hands, threw them over a wooden beam in the ceiling, and hoisted Majid into the air.
零时，一名警卫抓住马吉德手上的铁链，将其扔到天花板的木梁上，然后将马吉德举到空中。
"With sudden movement, the guards had hoisted the chain attached to my hands and pulled the chain tight.
“随着突然的动作，警卫把我手上的铁链举了起来，并将铁链拉紧。
After a few more pulls, I was hanging by my hands with my shackled feet barely touching the ground.
又拉了几下，我就被双手吊住了，脚镣铐几乎没着地。
The interrogators left the room as I screamed in pain and tried to support my weight.
当我痛苦地尖叫并试图支撑自己的体重时，审讯者离开了房间。
After a while, the interrogator--"
过了一会儿，审讯者——”
Majid tells the jury they left him hanging like that for an hour or two, and then dragged him into a tiled bathroom to a bathtub filled with ice water.
马吉德告诉陪审团，他们让他就这样悬挂了一两个小时，然后把他拖进铺着瓷砖的浴室，放到装满冰水的浴缸里。
"The US interrogator placed me feet first into the ice water and then pushed my body flat to the bottom of the tub.
“美国审讯员先把我的脚放入冰水中，然后将我的身体平推到浴缸底部。
I was still wearing a thin cloth hood.
我还戴着薄布兜帽。
While some US interrogators held my body under the water, the lead interrogator pushed my head under the water and held me down as I struggle against drowning.
当一些美国审讯者将我的身体压在水下时，领头的审讯者将我的头按到水下，在我挣扎着防止溺水时压住我。
As I gasped for air, the interrogator would demand answer to the questions.
当我喘着粗气时，审讯者会要求我回答问题。
They repeatedly submerged me.
他们多次把我淹没。
When I could get air, I would beg them to stop and swear to them that I did not know anything."
当我能呼吸到空气时，我会求他们停下来并向他们发誓我什么都不知道。”
The people I talked to who were in court that day said Majid was stoic as he read his statement.
那天在法庭上与我交谈的人说，马吉德在宣读他的陈述时表现得很坚忍。
Sometimes he acted out the scene he was describing.
有时他会表演他所描述的场景。
Like when he talked about being hung from a beam, he put his arms up into the air.
就像当他谈到被吊在横梁上时一样，他将双臂举到空中。
He pointed out the scars on his ankles when he told the jury how his feet swelled so much, the ankle cuffs cut into his skin.
当他告诉陪审团时，他指出了脚踝上的伤疤，他的脚肿得这么厉害，脚踝套子切进了他的皮肤。
Different details from his statement lodged in different people's heads.
他的陈述中的不同细节出现在不同人的脑海中。
For the prosecutor, Colonel Walt Foster, it was hearing how Majid was strung up by his arms.
对于检察官沃尔特·福斯特上校来说，他听到的是马吉德是如何被双臂吊死的。
For Majid's attorney, Major Michael Lyness, it was the bugs.
对于马吉德的律师迈克尔·莱尼斯少校来说，问题在于虫子。
"But I could feel tiny bugs, smaller than mosquitoes, biting me repeatedly until I bled.
“但我能感觉到比蚊子还小的小虫子不断地咬我，直到我流血。
With my hands shackled, I couldn't swat the bugs or scratch the sores they left."
我的双手被铐住，无法拍打虫子，也无法抓挠它们留下的疮口。”
There's one person from the black sites who Majid refers to specifically in his statement, gives him a nickname, a man he calls the "torture doctor." In April 2004, Majid tells the jury, he was moved to a different black site, which he refers to as "long-term CIA prison." He realized nobody was coming to help him.
马吉德在声明中特别提到了一个来自黑人网站的人，并给他起了一个绰号，他称之为“酷刑医生”。 2004 年 4 月，马吉德告诉陪审团，他被转移到另一个黑色地点，他将其称为“中央情报局长期监狱”。他意识到没有人来帮助他。
He was on his own.
他只能靠自己了。
He started a hunger strike to protest.
他开始绝食抗议。
So the torture doctor and the guards force fed him, sometimes with an IV, sometimes with a tube up the nose and down the throat.
于是，酷刑医生和恶警就强行给他灌食，有时是静脉注射，有时是用管子从鼻子插到喉咙。
"I remember the torture doctor right in front of me.
“我记得我面前的酷刑医生。
He would take the tube, and he would sharpen the tube and put a hot sauce.
他会拿起管子，然后将管子削尖并放上辣酱。
And then he would nose feed me."
然后他就会用鼻子喂我。”
And then when that didn't break his will, when he continued to hunger strike--
然后当这并没有摧毁他的意志时，当他继续绝食时——
"After the force feeding failed to get me to cooperate, they returned to torture me.
“灌食未能让我配合后，他们又回来折磨我。
This part is extremely painful to talk about as a Muslim and in front of my parents and my sister.
作为一名穆斯林，在我的父母和姐姐面前谈论这件事是非常痛苦的。
In the month of September 2004, still at long-term CIA prison, I was raped by a CIA torture doctor while being restrained.
2004年9月，我还在中央情报局的长期监狱里，在被束缚的情况下被中央情报局的酷刑医生强奸了。
They did it in my cell.
他们在我的牢房里做的。
I was restrained very tightly and secured by at least two guards.
我被至少两名警卫紧紧地束缚着。
The CIA torture doctor was there to administer the insertion, but it was not a medical procedure.
中央情报局的酷刑医生在那里执行插入操作，但这不是医疗程序。
I remember one time in my cell, I asked this torture doctor why he was doing this, and he whispered with viciousness.
我记得有一次在我的牢房里，我问这位酷刑医生为什么要这样做，他恶狠狠地低声说道。
And he said, quote, 'You're a fucking terrorist,' end of quote.
他说，引述，“你他妈的是个恐怖分子”，引述结束。
I swear to God, I remember exact words.
我向上帝发誓，我记得一清二楚。
He grabbed me like this, and he says, 'You're a fucking terrorist.'
他这样抓住我，然后说：“你他妈的是个恐怖分子。”
This is the hardest part.
这是最难的部分。
They used green garden hoses, regular-sized hoses connected to one side to my rectum, another one to the faucet.
他们使用绿色花园软管，常规尺寸的软管连接到我的直肠，另一侧连接到水龙头。
And they would turn on the water.
他们会打开水。
And I could feel the gush of water going into my rectum.
我能感觉到水涌入我的直肠。
I remember feeling immense pressure in my bowels, a pain I had never felt."
我记得我的肠子感到巨大的压力，一种我从未感受过的疼痛。”
The CIA euphemistically called this "rectal rehydration." They didn't stop at water.
中央情报局委婉地称之为“直肠补液”。他们没有在水边停下来。
Once, the torture doctor and the guards bound Majid with duct tape and shackles and put two bottles of Ensure into his rectum.
有一次，酷刑医生和警卫用胶带和脚镣将马吉德绑起来，并将两瓶安康药放入他的直肠中。
And then, later that same day, they puréed Majid's entire lunch tray-- hummus, pasta, sauce, nuts, and raisins-- and inserted all of that into his rectum, too.
然后，当天晚些时候，他们将马吉德的整个午餐托盘——鹰嘴豆泥、意大利面、酱汁、坚果和葡萄干——打成泥，并将所有这些也插入他的直肠。
This was known as rectal feeding.
这被称为直肠喂养。
The body cannot absorb nutrients this way.
身体无法通过这种方式吸收营养。
So a more accurate word for it is rape.
所以更准确的说法是强奸。
At least five other CIA prisoners were raped this way, too, according to the Senate report.
根据参议院的报告，至少还有其他五名中央情报局囚犯也以这种方式被强奸。
On page 30 of his 39-page statement, Majid stops reading and takes a sip of water.
在 39 页声明的第 30 页，马吉德停止阅读并喝了一口水。
He tells the jury apologetically that he's nearly done, asks them to bear with him.
他抱歉地告诉陪审团他已经快完成了，请他们耐心等待。
The judge says, would you like to take a break, Mr. Khan?
法官说，汗先生，你想休息一下吗？
And Majid says, Judge, I would like to get it over with-- thanks him for his concern.
马吉德说，法官，我想结束这件事——感谢他的关心。
He picks back up in May of 2006, when things had started to change in CIA custody, ease up a little.
2006 年 5 月，他重新振作起来，当时中央情报局的拘留情况开始发生变化，稍微放松了一些。
He went on a hunger strike again.
他再次绝食抗议。
But this time, the Americans didn't punish him, didn't rape him.
但这一次，美国人没有惩罚他，也没有强奸他。
He told them he was depressed, and they offered him Prozac.
他告诉他们他很沮丧，他们给了他百忧解。
Majid tells the jury how, in September of 2006, he was transferred to Guantánamo, how, on the plane ride there, he felt, for the first time, like he might actually survive.
马吉德告诉陪审团，2006 年 9 月，他如何被转移到关塔那摩，在飞往那里的飞机上，他如何第一次感觉到自己可能真的能活下来。
But then he was put in Camp 7.
但随后他被关进了七号营。
He describes his treatment there, the noises, the cruelty of the guards.
他描述了他在那里受到的待遇、噪音以及警卫的残忍行为。
Here, he goes off script.
在这里，他脱离了剧本。
Tells the jury that this is just a, quote, "summary of the summary of the summary of the summary." That he has 600 pages of notes about his treatment at Guantánamo, but he doesn't want to bore them.
告诉陪审团这只是一个引用，“摘要的摘要的摘要的摘要”。他有 600 页关于他在关塔那摩所受待遇的笔记，但他不想让它们变得无聊。
And then he wraps it up, thanks his attorneys, takes responsibility for his actions and his crimes, and apologizes to everyone he's hurt, including his wife, Rabia, and his daughter, Manaal, whom he's never met.
然后他结束了这一切，感谢他的律师，为自己的行为和罪行承担责任，并向所有受到伤害的人道歉，包括他的妻子拉比亚和他从未见过的女儿马娜尔。
He apologizes to his father again, and to his siblings, apologizes for abandoning them after their mother died.
他再次向他的父亲道歉，也向他的兄弟姐妹道歉，因为在母亲去世后抛弃了他们。
"I have wanted to tell my story for a very long time.
“我很久以来就想讲述我的故事。
I am so very appreciative for your attention.
我非常感谢您的关注。
Thank you for letting me share it with you today."
谢谢你今天让我与你分享。”
At this point, Majid's been reading for two hours non-stop.
至此，马吉德已经不间断地阅读了两个小时。
He says, God bless, and walks back to his seat.
他说：“愿上帝保佑”，然后走回座位。
By all accounts of the people I've talked to, the jury listened to Majid's statement like statues, unmoving.
根据我采访过的人的说法，陪审团像雕像一样听着马吉德的陈述，一动不动。
The next day, Colonel Foster, the prosecutor, gives a closing statement for the government.
第二天，检察官福斯特上校向政府作结案陈词。
He tries to refocus the trial around the crimes of Majid Khan, rather than the crimes of the United States government.
他试图将审判的重点重新集中在马吉德汗的罪行上，而不是美国政府的罪行上。
He talks about the victims of the Jakarta bombing, who've been off stage for most of the hearing, and reads their names out loud.
他谈到了雅加达爆炸事件的受害者，他们在听证会的大部分时间都在舞台外，并大声朗读了他们的名字。
Colonel Foster plays down the torture, saying, quote, "I would concur that Mr. Khan received extremely rough treatment by the individuals that detained him, and it is right for you to consider that conduct.
福斯特上校淡化了酷刑，他说，“我同意汗先生受到拘留他的人的极其粗暴的对待，你应该考虑这种行为。
However, despite what Mr. Khan experienced, he is still alive and with us here today, a luxury that the dead and the 11 victims of the JW Marriott Hotel bombing do not have."
然而，尽管汗先生经历了这些，他仍然活着，并且今天和我们在一起，这是 JW 万豪酒店爆炸案的死者和 11 名受害者所没有的奢侈。”
The jury can choose a sentence anywhere from 25 to 40 years.
陪审团可以选择 25 至 40 年的刑期。
Colonel Foster asked them to sentence him in the upper range of the spectrum.
福斯特上校要求他们对他进行最高刑罚。
Major Michael Lyness, one of Majid's defense attorneys, gives a rebuttal.
马吉德的辩护律师之一迈克尔·莱尼斯少校提出了反驳。
He asks the jury to give Majid 25 years.
他请求陪审团判处马吉德 25 年有期徒刑。
And then the judge sends him off to deliberate.
然后法官让他去商议。
They're gone for three hours.
他们已经走了三个小时了。
When they come back, the judge asks Majid to stand, and the foreman reads a sentence.
当他们回来时，法官要求马吉德起立，工头宣读判决。
Quote, "Majid Shoukhat Khan, this military commission sentences you to be confined for 26 years, zero months, zero days."
引用：“Majid Shoukhat Khan，这个军事委员会判处你 26 年零个月零天监禁。”
Again, Majid doesn't have to serve all this time.
再说一遍，马吉德不必一直发球。
His sentence is already set.
他的刑期已经定了。
But 26 years, it's only one year more than the minimum.
但26年，只比最低限度多了一年。
It's proof that Majid was right to bet that a jury of Americans would give him a lighter sentence once they heard about the torture.
这证明马吉德打赌美国陪审团在听说酷刑后会给他从轻的判决是正确的。
The judge thanks the jury, reminds them not to talk about their deliberations.
法官感谢陪审团，提醒他们不要谈论他们的审议结果。
And then, just as he's about to excuse them, the foreman indicates he has something else to say.
然后，正当他准备原谅他们时，工头表示他还有别的话要说。
He has a letter for the defense team.
他有一封写给辩护队的信。
He hands the letter to the bailiff, who walks over and gives it to Majid's attorney, Major Lyness, who leaves it there on the desk, tantalizingly folded in half while the judge wraps up the session.
他把信交给法警，法警走过去把它交给马吉德的律师莱内斯少校，后者把信留在桌子上，在法官结束庭审时，它诱人地对折成两半。
We wanted to open right away.
我们想马上开业。
Right?
正确的？
And everybody is acting like it's not a big deal, nonchalant.
每个人都表现得好像这没什么大不了的，漠不关心。
The judge finally says, Mr. Khan, I wish you all the best in the future.
法官最后说，汗先生，祝你未来一切顺利。
This court is adjourned.
本法庭休庭。
And then once the judge left the building, like a pack of dogs, attacked that letter.
然后法官一离开大楼，就像一群狗一样，攻击了那封信。
I was like, let me read it.
我当时想，让我读一下。
It's my letter.
这是我的信。
It's like, let me hold it.
就好像，让我握住它。
The letter is written in tidy handwriting on lined paper.
这封信是用工整的笔迹写在横格纸上的。
It reads, quote, "The panel members listed below recommend clemency in the case of Majid Shoukhat Khan." It's a letter to the so-called "Convening Authority." That's the person who's the final arbiter of Majid's case.
引用其中写道：“下面列出的小组成员建议对马吉德·舒哈特·汗（Majid Shoukhat Khan）一案予以宽大处理。”这是一封写给所谓“召集机构”的信。他是马吉德案的最终仲裁者。
It's a military justice thing.
这是军事正义的事情。
I'm not going to explain.
我不打算解释。
It's a letter asking the Convening Authority to go easy on Majid.
这是一封要求召集当局对马吉德宽大处理的信。
It says Majid should get leniency because he was denied due process, because he was a young man when he committed his crimes and is no longer a threat for future extremism, and because he was so badly abused by the United States.
报告称，马吉德应该获得宽大处理，因为他被剥夺了正当程序，因为他犯罪时还很年轻，不再对未来的极端主义构成威胁，还因为他受到美国的严重虐待。
Quote, "This abuse was of no practical value in terms of intelligence or any other tangible benefit to US interests.
引用：“这种滥用行为在情报方面或对美国利益的任何其他有形利益方面没有任何实际价值。
Instead, it is a stain on the moral fiber of America." It's signed by seven of the eight jury members, all officers of the United States military, all serving during the global war on terrorism, and who, having compared the two ledgers, rendered their verdict on this era of American history.
相反，这是美国道德上的污点。”它由八名陪审团成员中的七名签署，他们都是美国军方军官，都在全球反恐战争中服役，他们在比较两份账本后，对美国历史的这个时代做出了裁决。
What Majid did was bad, but what we did to him was punishment enough.
马吉德的所作所为很糟糕，但我们对他所做的已经足够惩罚了。
I think for lots of people in the military, this conclusion will not come as a surprise.
我认为对于很多军方人士来说，这个结论不会让人感到意外。
This idea of torturing prisoners isn't some abstract moral debate for them.
对他们来说，折磨囚犯的想法并不是什么抽象的道德辩论。
It's personal, practical.
这是个人的、实用的。
If they get captured by the enemy, they don't want to be tortured.
如果他们被敌人俘虏，他们不想受到折磨。
They don't want other Americans to be tortured.
他们不希望其他美国人受到折磨。
They want that kind of thing to be out of bounds.
他们希望这种事情不被允许。
They need the US to hold the line.
他们需要美国坚守阵地。
The clemency letter is framed on my wall in my office.
这封宽大处理信被装裱在我办公室的墙上。
That's Major Lyness, one of Majid's defense attorneys.
那是莱尼斯少校，马吉德的辩护律师之一。
And the original document is in my closet.
原始文件在我的衣柜里。
And I still don't know what to do with it.
我仍然不知道该怎么办。
I don't know who-- does the National Archives want this original document?
我不知道谁——国家档案馆想要这份原始文件吗？
Because it's currently just in my closet.
因为它目前就在我的衣柜里。
Why didn't you frame the original on your office wall?
你为什么不把原件装裱在办公室的墙上呢？
Why is that the one in the closet?
为什么衣柜里只有这个？
To me, it's the public's.
对我来说，这是公众的。
It's a public document.
这是一份公开文件。
It should be put somewhere where everybody can see it.
它应该放在每个人都可以看到的地方。
It's the kind of historical document that could, should, end up in a textbook, but it probably won't.
这是一种可以、应该被写入教科书的历史文献，但很可能不会。
It will probably stay in Major Lyness's closet.
它可能会留在莱尼斯少校的衣柜里。
I reached out to the CIA for comment on this story, for comment on Majid's treatment.
我联系了中央情报局，请其对此事发表评论，对马吉德的待遇发表评论。
In response, a CIA spokesperson sent me a statement-- quote, "The CIA's detention and interrogation program ended in 2009.
作为回应，中央情报局发言人给我发了一份声明——引述，“中央情报局的拘留和审讯计划于 2009 年结束。
The CIA has committed and remains committed to never again operating such a program of enhanced interrogation techniques," end quote.
中央情报局已经承诺并将继续致力于不再实施此类增强审讯技术的计划，”引用结束。
So many of the players in this story, in all these Guantánamo stories, just want to put that place behind them.
这个故事中的许多参与者，在所有这些关塔那摩故事中，只是想把那个地方抛在身后。
The American government certainly wants us to forget about Gitmo, the black sites, the torture.
美国政府当然希望我们忘记关塔那摩监狱、黑色网站和酷刑。
And Majid, too.
还有马吉德。
He finally got out of prison in February 2023, 11 months after his sentence officially ended.
2023 年 2 月，即刑期正式结束 11 个月后，他终于出狱。
His attorneys met him in Belize, helped him set up his new house.
他的律师在伯利兹会见了他，帮助他建立了新房子。
Two months later, Rabia and Manaal joined him.
两个月后，拉比亚和马纳尔加入了他。
He helped Manaal hang rainbow-colored lights around her room.
他帮助玛纳尔在她的房间周围挂上了彩虹色的灯。
He spotted her as she put a ladder on a chair on her bed to reach the ceiling.
当她把梯子放在床上的椅子上以到达天花板时，他发现了她。
In some photos he and Rabia took shortly after they were reunited, they're both beaming, like newlyweds.
在他和拉比亚重聚后不久拍摄的一些照片中，他们都笑容满面，就像新婚夫妇一样。
Majid spent the first 20 years of adult life in prison.
马吉德在监狱中度过了成年后的前 20 年。
Now, suddenly, at the age of 44, he's a husband and a father.
现在，突然间，44 岁的他成为了丈夫和父亲。
He has a 20-year-old daughter and a new baby.
他有一个 20 岁的女儿和一个新生儿。
He's got to learn to raise a kid, find a job, convince the banks to give him a bank account.
他必须学会抚养孩子，找到工作，说服银行给他一个银行账户。
He doesn't want to be talking about any of this stuff, doesn't want to relive it.
他不想谈论任何这些事情，也不想重温它。
He couldn't sleep the week I was in Belize interviewing him.
我在伯利兹采访他的那一周他无法入睡。
He just wants to move on.
他只是想继续前进。
I don't give a fuck about history.
我他妈的才不关心历史。
Like, I don't want it to be a part of history-- with all due respect, I just want to be forgotten.
就像，我不希望它成为历史的一部分——恕我直言，我只是想被遗忘。
You know, who cares?
你知道，谁在乎呢？
Who's Majid Khan?
马吉德汗是谁？
If I die and bury someone someplace, I will make sure nobody knows where I am.
如果我死后把某人埋在某个地方，我会确保没有人知道我在哪里。
When I die, I just want to make sure only two people come-- my two loved ones.
当我死的时候，我只想确保只有两个人会来——我的两个亲人。
That's it, my daughter and my wife.
就是这样，我的女儿和我的妻子。
I'm happy.
我很高兴。
That's what I prefer.
这就是我更喜欢的。
Majid told me the sentencing hearing, the clemency letter, they were validating in the moment, but writ large, the American public?
马吉德告诉我量刑听证会、宽大处理信，他们此刻正在验证，但大体而言，美国公众？
He doesn't think anyone noticed.
他认为没有人注意到。
And he's probably right.
他可能是对的。
But you know who did notice?
但你知道谁注意到了吗？
The accused masterminds of 9/11-- or their lawyers, anyway.
无论如何，被指控的 9/11 策划者或者他们的律师。
If Majid got a more lenient sentence because he was tortured, could they?
如果马吉德因为受到酷刑而得到更轻的判决，他们可以吗？
Next time.
下次。
Ira Glass That'll be next time on Serial and on our show as well.
Ira Glass：这将在下次连续剧和我们的节目中出现。
We'll be running one more episode from the Guantánamo series next week.
下周我们将再播放关塔那摩系列剧的一集。
Season 4 of Serial was edited by Julie Snyder, with additional editing from Jen Guerra and myself.
《连续剧》第 4 季由 Julie Snyder 剪辑，Jen Guerra 和我自己进行了额外剪辑。
It's produced by Serial and The New York Times.
它由《Serial》和《纽约时报》制作。
You can hear the rest of the season-- and I recommend it-- all about Guantánamo wherever you get your podcasts.
无论你在哪里收听播客，都可以听到本季剩余的节目——我推荐它——所有关于关塔那摩的内容。
Other people who have put this season together include Rozina Ali, Cora Currier, Sofia Degli Alessandri, Emma Grillo, Mack Miller, Ben Phelan, Carol Rosenberg, Al-Amyn Sumar, Ndeye Thioubou, Phoebe Wang, Susan Wessling, and New York Times deputy managing editor Sam Dolnick.
其他参与本季制作的人包括 Rozina Ali、Cora Currier、Sofia Degli Alessandri、Emma Grillo、Mack Miller、Ben Phelan、Carol Rosenberg、Al-Amyn Sumar、Ndeye Thioubou、Phoebe Wang、Susan Wessling 和《纽约时报》副总编辑 Sam Dolnick。
Sean Cole, Mike Comite, Sarah Koenig, Safiyah Riddle, Matt Tierney, and Jessica Weisberg did the work to put this Serial episode onto our program.
肖恩·科尔、迈克·科米特、莎拉·科尼格、萨菲亚·里德尔、马特·蒂尔尼和杰西卡·韦斯伯格将这一连续剧纳入我们的节目。
Special thanks today to Talia Baiocchi, Alison Beckman at the Center for the Victims of Torture, Nina Lassam, Alvin Melathe, and Tug Wilson.
今天特别感谢酷刑受害者中心的 Talia Baiocchi、Alison Beckman、Nina Lassam、Alvin Melathe 和 Tug Wilson。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org, where you can stream our archive of over 800 episodes for absolutely free.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org，您可以在其中完全免费地观看我们的 800 多集档案。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our program's cofounder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
He does not understand why people at the office did not get his Halloween costume last year.
他不明白为什么办公室里的人去年没有得到他的万圣节服装。
He's like, isn't it obvious?
他说，这不是很明显吗？
A rhinoceros on St. Patrick's Day.
圣帕特里克节的一头犀牛。
I was a greenhorn.
我是个新手。
Ira Glass I'm Ira Glass.
艾拉·格拉斯 我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
Next week on the podcast of This American Life.
下周在《美国生活》的播客上。
Most of the people imprisoned at Guantánamo were low-level fighters at best.
大多数被关塔那摩监狱的人充其量只是低级战士。
More than 95% were never charged with a crime.
超过 95% 的人从未被指控犯罪。
But if there was any case at Guantánamo where you think justice would be done, it was the trial for the man accused of orchestrating 9/11.
但如果说关塔那摩监狱有任何案件让你认为正义会得到伸张的话，那就是对被指控策划 9/11 的人的审判。
So, more than two decades later, how's it going with that trial?
那么，二十多年过去了，那次审判进展如何呢？
Answer-- even that's messed up in some really shocking ways.
答案是——即便如此，在某些方面也确实是一团糟。
Next week on the podcast on your local public radio station.
下周在当地公共广播电台的播客上播出。
This American Life This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
This American Life This American Life 与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。