823: The Question Trap - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #823 | January 24, 2025 823: The Question Trap Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 823 集 | 2025 年 1 月 24 日 823：问题陷阱 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
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Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
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Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
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Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass The question started right after Tobin and his husband moved to
序言：序言 Ira Glass 这个问题是在托宾和他的丈夫搬到
Tobin's family was pretty excited about this.
托宾的家人对此非常兴奋。
They all live within an hour.
他们都活在一个小时之内。
And they brought meals over for weeks.
他们连续几个星期都送饭菜过来。
His mom bought them shades.
他妈妈给他们买了墨镜。
But this question popped up.
但这个问题就出现了。
And the first time I noticed it happening, it was with my aunt.
我第一次注意到这件事发生是在我姨妈身上。
Kind of out of nowhere, she was like, oh, Which one of you is handy?
有点突然，她说，哦，你们哪一个方便？
Is one of you handy?
你们中的一个人方便吗？
And I was just like, why does she want to know that?
我当时想，为什么她想知道这个？
Why does she care?
她为什么关心？
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
Tobin Low And I had, like, feelings about it, and I couldn't tell why.
托宾·洛（Tobin Low） 我对此有某种感觉，但我说不出为什么。
And then, it just kind of kept happening with other family members.
然后，这种事就不断地发生在其他家庭成员身上。
Like, they would be talking about, oh, you guys moved in together into this house.
就像，他们会谈论，哦，你们一起搬进了这所房子。
Which one of you is handy?
你们谁方便？
And on its face, it was kind of like, oh, we know when you're in a house, there's a lot of things to fix and a lot of things to do.
从表面上看，这有点像，哦，我们知道当你在房子里时，有很多东西需要修理，很多事情要做。
But it felt like there was something else happening there, and it kind of bothered me.
但感觉那里发生了其他事情，这让我感到困扰。
Something else there, like there was a question underneath the question that they were trying to get the answer to.
还有其他东西，就像他们试图找到答案的问题下面有一个问题。
Yeah, like there was something else trying to be figured out.
是的，就像还有其他事情需要弄清楚。
And I don't know.
我不知道。
Like, the more I thought about it and why I was having feelings about it, it was kind of like this weird aha moment of, like, oh, I think you're asking who the man is in my relationship.
就像，我越想它以及为什么我对此有感觉，这有点像这个奇怪的顿悟时刻，就像，哦，我想你在问我关系中的那个男人是谁。
[LAUGHTER] Ira Glass Right.
[笑声] Ira Glass 对。
You're both men.
你们都是男人。
Yes.
是的。
Ira Glass But one of you is really the man.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 但你们中的一个人才是真正的男人。
Yes.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Ira Glass Then, when Tobin would tell them that it was his husband who was the handy one, he felt like he was just giving them ammunition to put a picture of their relationship that just bugged him, like they were being sized up into familiar categories.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 然后，当托宾告诉他们，是他的丈夫才是最得心应手的人时，他觉得自己只是在给他们提供弹药，让他们把他们的关系描绘成一幅让他烦恼的画面，就像他们正在被归入熟悉的类别一样。
Which of you is the husband?
你们谁是丈夫？
Which of you is the wife?
你们谁是妻子？
Like, it was weird, because whenever they would ask it, I could feel myself getting defensive.
就像，这很奇怪，因为每当他们问这个问题时，我都能感觉到自己变得很防御。
I didn't want to give them that picture.
我不想给他们那张照片。
And I think part of my defensiveness came from, I think-- well, oh, man, not to take us in a whole other direction.
我认为我的部分防御来自于，我想——好吧，哦，伙计，不要把我们带向另一个方向。
But if you spend any amount of time in the closet--
但如果你在衣柜里待了很长时间——
"In the closet." For Tobin, that means middle school and high school.
“在衣柜里。”对于托宾来说，这意味着初中和高中。
I think you're afraid of being found out at all as being effeminate in any way.
我认为你害怕被人发现在任何方面都是女性化的。
Like, I know for me, I was very conscious of if anyone could detect, quote unquote, you know, "feminine" traits about me, and then figure out if I was gay or not.
就像，我知道对我来说，我非常意识到是否有人能够发现，引用不引用，你知道，我的“女性”特征，然后弄清楚我是否是同性恋。
And so I do think that myself and a lot of gay men carry that around for kind of the rest of your life.
所以我确实认为我自己和很多男同性恋者都会在余生中带着这种感觉。
And so I think that comes up in having to answer a question like this also.
所以我认为这也必须回答这样的问题。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah, it's funny, because it's like this innocent question, and then really, underneath it, it's like there's a bomb waiting to go off, actually.
是的，这很有趣，因为这就像一个无辜的问题，然后真的，在它的下面，实际上就像有一颗炸弹等待着爆炸。
Like, there's so many feelings.
好像，有很多感触。
Yeah, it feels like it hits on a thing, at least for me, that I spent a lot of time as a kid running from, or spent a lot of time trying to not have to answer.
是的，感觉它击中了一件事情，至少对我来说，我小时候花了很多时间逃避，或者花了很多时间试图不去回答。
Yeah.
是的。
Tobin Low Like, how masculine am I?
托宾·洛（Tobin Low） 就像，我有多有男子气概？
And is somebody else more masculine than I am?
难道还有人比我更有男子气概吗？
And, like, I do want to make room for the idea that they could have meant none of this, like, absolutely none of this.
而且，就像，我确实想为这样的想法腾出空间，即他们可能没有这些，就像，绝对没有这些。
Did you address it directly with any of them?
您是否直接与他们中的任何人讨论过这个问题？
No, because that would be bonkers.
不，因为那会很疯狂。
[LAUGHS] To just say--
[笑]只想说——
[LAUGHTER] Oh, you asked me who's handy.
[笑声]哦，你问我谁方便。
You're trying to say I'm not a man.
你试图说我不是男人。
Like, that-- the leap in logic to say that outright is so huge.
就像，直接说出来，逻辑上的飞跃是如此巨大。
Well, today on our program, questions that contain other secret questions inside of them, questions that are wolves in sheep's clothing, and all kinds of situations that we've all been in-- in dating, in talking to strangers, in dealing with the saddest things that ever happened to us, and more.
好吧，今天在我们的节目中，问题中包含着其他秘密问题，披着羊皮的狼的问题，以及我们都经历过的各种情况——约会时，与陌生人交谈时，处理发生在我们身上最悲伤的事情时，等等。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
OK, so instead of four different acts today, what we're going to do is we're going to present the show as four questions.
好的，所以今天我们要做的不是四个不同的表演，而是以四个问题的形式呈现这个节目。
Here's the first one.
这是第一个。
Question, Tell Me How You Feel About This.
问题，告诉我你对此有何感受。
So Tobin, who you just heard, is one of the editors here at our show.
你刚才听说的托宾是我们节目的编辑之一。
And really, the idea for today's program came out of a conversation that happened at a staff meeting.
事实上，今天的节目的想法来自一次员工会议上的一次谈话。
And what happened was, we all got talking about these kind of question traps, where it seems like somebody is asking about one thing, but the question is a proxy for trying to figure out something else.
发生的事情是，我们都在谈论这类问题陷阱，似乎有人在问一件事，但问题却是试图弄清楚其他事情的代理。
Tobin will explain more.
托宾将解释更多。
The conversation was about the questions people ask on first dates, the kind that force who someone really is out into the open, maybe even without them realizing.
谈话的主题是人们在第一次约会时提出的问题，这种问题迫使某人的真实身份公开，甚至可能在他们没有意识到的情况下。
One such question, I didn't even know was a thing.
有一个这样的问题，我什至不知道是一件事。
But a few of my co-workers said that for Black women of a certain age, it's having a kind of renaissance.
但我的一些同事说，对于一定年龄的黑人女性来说，这是一种复兴。
Emanuele, our executive editor, asks it this way.
我们的执行主编 Emanuele 是这样问的。
"What do you think of Beyoncé?" It was a question that I found myself trying to ask, basically, a lot on first dates.
“你觉得碧昂丝怎么样？”基本上，我发现自己在第一次约会时经常想问这个问题。
Because it told me a lot about them.
因为它告诉了我很多关于他们的事情。
It's a question that tells you, one, in some ways, how they feel about a powerful Black woman.
这个问题在某种程度上告诉你他们对一位强大的黑人女性的看法。
It's a question that tells you how they think about Black women in general, kind of, a little bit, to me.
这个问题告诉你他们对黑人女性的总体看法，对我来说有一点。
And that if you feel the need to put her down or say something negative about her, it's like a real turnoff.
如果你觉得有必要贬低她或者说她的坏话，那就真的会令人厌烦。
It's like a red flag, basically.
基本上，这就像一面红旗。
If they describe her singing style as kind of like caterwauling or like, ugh, she's just screeching--
如果他们将她的歌唱风格描述为有点像猫叫，或者像，呃，她只是尖叫——
Bim, another producer, has also asked this question on many a date.
另一位制片人 Bim 在多次约会中也问过这个问题。
All these words that have double meanings if you're a woman, and also if you're a Black woman-- I'm just like, all right, so you don't like loud people.
如果你是一名女性，或者如果你是一名黑人女性，所有这些词都有双重含义——我只是想，好吧，所以你不喜欢吵闹的人。
OK.
好的。
OK.
好的。
That means you don't like me.
那说明你不喜欢我。
Could you tell me about some specific times that you've asked the Beyoncé question, and what the guy's response was and what it told you?
你能告诉我你问碧昂斯问题的一些具体时间吗？那个人的回答是什么以及它告诉了你什么？
First date, bar date, pretty standard.
第一次约会，酒吧约会，相当标准。
Beyoncé actually came on in the bar in the background.
碧昂斯实际上在酒吧里出现在后台。
I was like, oh, What do you think about Beyoncé?
我当时想，哦，你觉得碧昂丝怎么样？
And he was like, I don't-- I don't understand what the big deal is about her.
他说，我不明白她有什么大不了的。
Like, you-- like, women act like they're in a cult or something.
就像，你——就像，女人的行为就好像她们身处邪教之类的。
And it's like, they seem, like, crazy.
他们看起来就像是疯了。
I was like, oh, well, I really like her, and like, I don't really think I'm in a cult.
我当时想，哦，好吧，我真的很喜欢她，而且我真的不认为我在邪教中。
Emanuele walks the guy through all the reasons Beyoncé is, in fact, pretty great.
埃马努埃莱（Emanuele）向他解释了碧昂丝（Beyoncé）事实上非常伟大的所有原因。
But the guy didn't budge.
但那家伙并没有让步。
No, he did not-- didn't care to.
不，他没有——不在乎。
And maybe he didn't care to hear me talk in general, is what it seemed like.
也许他并不在乎听我讲话，看起来就是这样。
(LAUGHING) So.
（笑）所以。
They did not go out again, because, well, you could say he was unapologetic when he fucked up the night.
他们没有再出去，因为，好吧，你可以说，当他搞砸了这个夜晚时，他毫无歉意。
That's a play on a Beyoncé lyric, by the way.
顺便说一句，这是对碧昂斯歌词的改编。
Sorry, couldn't help myself.
抱歉，我无法自拔。
Anyway, BA Parker, who's also been on the show-- she said, for her, it doesn't even have to be Beyoncé.
不管怎样，BA Parker 也参加过这个节目——她说，对她来说，甚至不必是碧昂斯。
Any well-known Black woman does the trick.
任何著名的黑人女性都会这么做。
If you say Serena Williams, and they say, oh, I think she's overrated, or if you say, Jada Pinkett, it's like, oh, she's too masculine, or she's ruining Will Smith's life, she's controlling him-- or How do you feel about Lizzo?
如果你说塞雷娜·威廉姆斯，他们会说，哦，我认为她被高估了，或者如果你说，贾达·萍克特，那就像是，哦，她太男性化了，或者她毁了威尔·史密斯的生活，她控制了他——或者你对利佐感觉如何？
Like, she needs to cover her ass.
就像，她需要遮住她的屁股。
I bring up a Black female celebrity to get their opinion on them, and it usually becomes like the litmus test for how they would treat me as a partner, how they would view me as a person.
我会提起一位黑人女性名人来了解她们对她们的看法，这通常就像是试金石，检验她们如何对待我作为伴侣，如何看待我作为一个人。
But the Beyoncé question, she agrees, is the most potent.
但她同意，碧昂丝的问题是最有力的。
Because the answer can really tell you if you should be crazy in love or putting everything he owns in a box to the left.
因为答案确实可以告诉你，你是否应该疯狂地恋爱，或者把他拥有的一切都放在左边的盒子里。
Again, I am so sorry.
再次，我非常抱歉。
The thing about a bunch of people using the same trick, though, is that eventually, people-- in this case, men-- might catch on.
然而，一群人使用同样的技巧的问题是，最终，人们——在这种情况下是男人——可能会流行起来。
Yes, I am aware of the Beyoncé question.
是的，我知道碧昂斯的问题。
Emmanuel Dzotsi, producer and man at the show--
Emmanuel Dzotsi，制作人兼节目主持人——
Have you experienced this?
你有过这样的经历吗？
Emmanuel Dzotsi Yes, I've experienced it many times.
Emmanuel Dzotsi 是的，我已经经历过很多次了。
He told me about a date he was on where they started talking about musicals, and the movie version of Dreamgirls came up.
他告诉我他有一次约会，他们开始谈论音乐剧，然后就出现了电影版的《梦幻女郎》。
And thinking he was just answering a question about the movie, Emmanuel was honest.
伊曼纽尔很诚实，他以为自己只是在回答有关电影的问题。
He said, Beyoncé was just OK in that.
他说，碧昂丝在这方面还不错。
He didn't realize he was answering the wrong question.
他没有意识到自己回答了错误的问题。
Um, and I was just digging a hole.
嗯，我只是挖个洞。
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
She was just like, the only answer to being asked about Beyoncé is that, yes, she's fantastic.
当被问及碧昂丝时，她的唯一答案就是，是的，她太棒了。
She's amazing.
她太棒了。
Nobody can do what she does.
没有人能做她所做的事。
It was only later that he learned from another guy friend why he, as a Black man, should really only answer one way.
直到后来，他才从另一位男性朋友那里得知，为什么他作为一名黑人，实际上应该只以一种方式回答。
I remember my friend saying, basically, that is the question Black women will ask you to determine if you really like Black women.
我记得我的朋友说，基本上，这是黑人女性会问你的问题，以确定你是否真的喜欢黑人女性。
Once it was explained to me, like, I totally understood where people were coming from.
一旦向我解释，我就完全明白人们来自哪里。
And I understood what the purpose of that question was.
我明白这个问题的目的是什么。
In some cases, the Beyoncé question is like an agreed-upon farce, where both parties know they're talking in code.
在某些情况下，碧昂斯的问题就像一场商定的闹剧，双方都知道他们在用密码交谈。
Parker was recently on a date.
帕克最近正在约会。
She mentioned Beyoncé's Black is King film.
她提到了碧昂丝的《黑人为王》电影。
And he was like-- uh, (LAUGHING) He was like, I don't know what to say here.
他就像——呃，（笑）他就像，我不知道在这里该说什么。
'Cause I-- I-- I like this.
因为我——我——我喜欢这个。
I like talking to you, but I don't love Beyoncé.
我喜欢和你说话，但我不爱碧昂丝。
(LAUGHING) And I don't want you to be mad at me.
（笑）我不想让你生我的气。
He knew it was a trap.
他知道这是一个陷阱。
BA Parker (LAUGHING) He did know it was a trap.
BA Parker（笑）：他确实知道这是一个陷阱。
And how did you respond?
你的反应如何？
BA Parker I was like, What are you talking about?
BA Parker 我当时想，你在说什么？
What are you-- And he was like, I know girls do this.
你是什么——他说，我知道女孩子都会这么做。
And I was like, you're-- you're right.
我当时想，你是对的。
And I'm sorry.
我很抱歉。
(LAUGHING) I apologized.
（笑）我道歉了。
And I was like, well, I guess that's kind of the right answer.
我当时想，好吧，我想这就是正确的答案。
So we had a couple more dates.
所以我们又约会了几次。
Of course, there are other questions like the Beyoncé one-- little traps we set on dates, hoping the other person doesn't fall in, or hoping they do.
当然，还有其他问题，比如碧昂斯的问题——我们在约会时设置的小陷阱，希望对方不要掉进去，或者希望他们掉进去。
One that made the news recently, which may or may not be true-- according to an old classmate, Governor Ron DeSantis would ask dates if they liked Thai food.
最近上了新闻，这可能是真的，也可能不是——据一位老同学说，州长罗恩·德桑蒂斯会询问约会对象是否喜欢泰国菜。
But-- and this is key-- he'd pronounce it "Thigh" food.
但是——这是关键——他会把它发音为“大腿”食物。
And if they said, no, it's Thai food, not "thigh," he'd ditch the date.
如果他们说，不，这是泰国菜，而不是“大腿”，他就会放弃约会。
It was his way of testing if they'd correct him, which he did not want.
这是他测试他们是否会纠正他的方式，但他不希望这样做。
I don't know.
我不知道。
It sounds like a test I'd be grateful to fail, but that's just me.
这听起来像是一个我很庆幸失败的测试，但那只是我。
Anyway, I talked to a bunch of other people about their question traps.
不管怎样，我和其他一些人讨论了他们的问题陷阱。
Kelsey in Minnesota asked her dates about their favorite Tom Hanks movies.
明尼苏达州的凯尔西向她的约会对象询问他们最喜欢的汤姆·汉克斯的电影。
She said he's been in so many movies across multiple genres, the answer is kind of like a personality test.
她说他出演过很多不同类型的电影，答案有点像性格测试。
Toy Story, for example, tells her there is a stunted-adolescence thing going on.
例如，《玩具总动员》告诉她，青春期发育不良正在发生。
Sarah in Tampa said when she started to get a weird vibe, she'd ask, What's your favorite conspiracy theory?
坦帕的莎拉说，当她开始感受到一种奇怪的氛围时，她会问，你最喜欢的阴谋论是什么？
Most people would keep their answers lighthearted, but occasionally, someone would go all in.
大多数人都会轻松地回答，但偶尔也会有人全力以赴。
One guy started talking all about Nazi separatists.
一个人开始谈论纳粹分离主义者。
She's Jewish, so you know, kind of a deal breaker.
她是犹太人，所以你知道，有点破坏交易。
But not all question traps are subtle.
但并非所有问题陷阱都是微妙的。
There's another genre that I was surprised anyone fell for-- the kind of question that seemed covered in yellow caution tape and a sign that said, this is a trap.
还有另一种类型，我很惊讶有人会喜欢这种类型的问题，这种问题似乎被黄色警告胶带覆盖，并有一个标志说，这是一个陷阱。
This one comes from Vivian in Iowa.
这一位来自爱荷华州的维维安。
After her husband died in 2016, she found herself back out on the dating scene.
2016 年丈夫去世后，她又重新回到约会舞台。
Her question on a date was, If your ex walked by right now with their new partner, what would you do?
她关于约会的问题是，如果你的前任现在和他们的新伴侣一起走过，你会怎么做？
Which was her way of asking a much more interesting question-- How fucked up was your last relationship?
这是她问一个更有趣的问题的方式——你的上一段感情有多糟糕？
First time I did it, the guy said, I would punch him and give her a piece of my mind.
那个人说，我第一次这样做时，我会打他，然后告诉她我的想法。
Oh, my god.
我的天啊。
Vivian (LAUGHING) Exactly.
薇薇安（笑）：没错。
We had just sat down to have a nice lunch on a Sunday afternoon.
周日下午我们刚刚坐下来享用一顿美味的午餐。
So I'm like, do I get up and go, or-- [LAUGHS] And that's when the story came out of how he was still about a couple of weeks away from going to court for finalizing his divorce.
所以我想，我是该起身离开，还是——[笑]就在那时，故事发生了，距离他上法庭最终完成离婚还有大约几周的时间。
And it had been a 38-year relationship, and he found out she had been cheating for most of the time, in a completely serendipitous way.
这段感情已经持续了 38 年，他发现她大部分时间都在出轨，而且完全是偶然的。
She gave him an old phone that she had wiped, and when she downloaded the cloud, it downloaded into his phone, too.
她给了他一部已经擦拭过的旧手机，当她下载云时，它也下载到了他的手机中。
And that's how he found out.
他就是这样发现的。
Wow, you got so much information from that one question.
哇，你从这个问题中得到了这么多信息。
You got to make it efficient.
你必须让它变得高效。
Why draw it out?
为什么要画出来呢？
I was shocked.
我很震惊。
This question is so clearly, How bad was your last breakup?
这个问题问得很清楚，你上次分手有多糟糕？
Do I have anything to worry about?
我有什么可担心的吗？
But something about turning it into a fun little icebreaker made these guys open up.
但把它变成一个有趣的小破冰船让这些人敞开心扉。
There was another guy that said, well, we would have to leave immediately, because I don't want to see them.
还有一个人说，好吧，我们必须立即离开，因为我不想看到他们。
And my reply was, You don't want to see them, or you don't want them to see us?
我的回答是，你不想看到他们，或者你不想让他们看到我们？
And what was his response?
他的反应是什么？
Vivian Oh, he-- never answered directly.
薇薇安哦，他——从来没有直接回答过。
But I knew then that he was still in a relationship.
但我当时就知道他仍然处于恋爱关系中。
With her now-husband, they met at a widows' support group.
他们与她现在的丈夫在一个寡妇支持小组中相识。
He talked about his loneliness and being a single parent.
他谈到了他的孤独和作为单亲父母的感受。
They kind of just got each other.
他们就像刚刚得到彼此一样。
And she knew the question, What would you do if your ex showed up?
她知道这个问题：如果你的前任出现，你会怎么做？
would not be right for this nice guy who had just lost his wife.
对于这个刚刚失去妻子的好人来说，这是不合适的。
She wasn't going to ask that.
她不会问这个的。
The last person I talked to was Jessica.
我最后一个交谈的人是杰西卡。
She teaches ESL classes in Atlanta.
她在亚特兰大教授 ESL 课程。
What's your go-to question?
你最想问的问题是什么？
Jessica Uh, "Do you believe in ghosts?"
杰西卡呃，“你相信有鬼吗？”
Ghosts.
鬼魂。
I bet you didn't see that one coming, did you-- "Do you believe in ghosts?" Here's how Jessica says it works.
我打赌你没有看到那个人过来，是吗——“你相信有鬼吗？”杰西卡说它是这样工作的。
There is no one right answer.
没有一个正确的答案。
It just matters that you and your partner have the same answer, essentially, at its core.
重要的是你和你的伴侣在本质上有相同的答案。
Your minds kind of work in a similar way.
你的思维也以类似的方式运作。
Was there ever a time that you asked the ghost question, the person answered differently than you, and you went ahead and dated that person anyway?
是否有过这样的经历：你问了鬼问题，那个人的回答与你不同，但你还是继续和那个人约会？
And how did that go?
进展如何？
[CHUCKLES] Yes.
[轻笑]是的。
Yeah.
是的。
I was engaged before I married my husband now.
我现在和丈夫结婚之前就已经订婚了。
And the ghost question really should have been my get-the-fuck-out moment.
而幽灵问题确实应该是我滚蛋的时刻。
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
Her answer to the question is, I don't really believe in ghosts, but if there was evidence to the contrary, I could be convinced.
她对这个问题的回答是，我并不真的相信有鬼，但如果有相反的证据，我就可以相信。
I'm open to changing my mind.
我愿意改变主意。
And his response was, no, and there is no information that you could give me to change my mind.
他的回答是，不，你也没有任何信息可以让我改变主意。
And I just-- I don't see why anyone would really think that.
我只是——我不明白为什么有人会这么想。
At the time, she didn't think much about the difference in their answers.
当时，她并没有多想他们的答案有何不同。
But then, as she got to know him better, other things would come up.
但随着她对他的了解越来越多，其他的事情就会出现。
And I was frustrated about the fact that, like, everything with you is so black-and-white.
我对这样的事实感到沮丧，就像，与你有关的一切都是如此黑白分明。
Like, not everything is black-and-white.
就像，并非一切都是黑白的。
Sometimes they're gray.
有时它们是灰色的。
And then I thought back to his answer to this question.
然后我回想起他对这个问题的回答。
His rigidity was one of the big things that broke them up.
他的僵化是导致他们破裂的一大原因。
Now, she tells everyone she knows, if you're seeing someone new, ask them the ghost question.
现在，她告诉她认识的每个人，如果你遇到新朋友，请问他们鬼问题。
It could save you a lot of time.
它可以节省你很多时间。
The thing about any trap, of course, is there are ways to sidestep it, disarm it.
当然，任何陷阱的问题在于都有办法避开它、解除它。
And then, the person who laid the trap has to decide what to do.
然后，设下陷阱的人必须决定该怎么做。
Emanuele had to make such a decision.
埃马努埃莱不得不做出这样的决定。
Ironically enough, my current boyfriend had no idea who Beyoncé was-- who's the only person who had that response.
讽刺的是，我现在的男朋友不知道碧昂斯是谁——他是唯一有这种反应的人。
What did that tell you?
这告诉你什么？
Emanuele Berry That he just needed, like, some education?
埃马努埃莱·贝里 他只是需要一些教育？
[LAUGHTER] He's older, and he's not from this country, and doesn't listen to music, really, and like, by the second date, he had read the entire Wikipedia page for me, and he knew Beyoncé's birthday, and that she was married to Jay-Z, and he knew about the elevator fight.
[笑声]他年纪大了，他不是来自这个国家，也不听音乐，真的，到第二次约会时，他已经为我读完了整个维基百科页面，他知道碧昂斯的生日，知道她和 Jay-Z 结婚了，他也知道电梯打斗的事。
Yeah.
是的。
It ended up being a green flag.
它最终成为一面绿旗。
Now, I talk to him about Beyoncé all the time, and I don't necessarily think he's, like-- he's not going out to Beyoncé concerts or anything, but he understands how important she is and how important she is to me, and lets me rant about her, so, that's all you ever really want, right?
现在，我一直和他谈论碧昂丝，我不一定认为他不会去参加碧昂丝的音乐会或其他任何事情，但他了解她对我有多重要，也让我对她咆哮，所以，这就是你真正想要的，对吧？
It is.
这是。
All I think anyone wants is someone you don't feel like you have to set a trap for, someone who you can look at them and say, you're everything I need and more.
我认为任何人都想要的是一个你不需要为之设置陷阱的人，一个你可以看着他们说，你就是我所需要的一切，甚至更多。
It's written all over your face.
都写在你的脸上了。
Baby, I can feel your halo.
宝贝，我能感觉到你的光环。
Pray it won't fade away.
祈祷它不会消失。
Sorry, I'm going to stop now.
抱歉，我现在要停下来了。
Question Two, How Old Are Your Kids?
问题二、您的孩子多大了？
So there's a particular piece of small talk that happens all the time that, for some people, is the most normal thing in the world, and for others, is a super delicate minefield.
因此，有一种特殊的闲聊一直在发生，对于某些人来说，这是世界上最正常的事情，而对于另一些人来说，则是一个超级微妙的雷区。
This story that you're about to hear is about a couple for whom it is a minefield.
你将要听到的这个故事是关于一对夫妇的，对他们来说这是一个雷区。
And how, one day, a question like this comes up, and it goes completely differently from how it's ever gone before for them, in a spectacularly wild way.
有一天，像这样的问题出现了，而且它的发展与他们以前的经历完全不同，以一种极其疯狂的方式。
You'll hear what I'm talking about.
你会听到我在说什么。
Chris Benderev tells the story.
克里斯·本德列夫讲述了这个故事。
Stacey Silberman is a real estate agent in Southern California, and she's well suited to the job because she's excellent at making conversation with strangers about anything.
史黛西·西尔伯曼 (Stacey Silberman) 是南加州的一名房地产经纪人，她非常适合这份工作，因为她非常擅长与陌生人谈论任何事情。
But for the past six and a half years, there's been this classic genre of get-to-know-you banter that's become a lot more complicated for her and her husband, Michael.
但在过去的六年半里，这种经典的相互了解的玩笑方式对她和她的丈夫迈克尔来说变得更加复杂。
And that's questions about their children.
这是关于他们孩子的问题。
Um, yes, all the time.
嗯，是的，一直都是。
Talking to people, getting introductions-- it's always asking about our kids.
与人交谈、接受介绍——总是会询问我们孩子的情况。
How many kids do you have?
你有几个孩子？
Blah, blah, blah, blah.
巴拉，巴拉，巴拉，巴拉。
How old are they?
他们几岁了？
The answers to these questions are complicated for Stacey, because her older child, Max, died in 2017.
对于 Stacey 来说，这些问题的答案很复杂，因为她的大孩子 Max 已于 2017 年去世。
So it has been six and a half years, because I have a dot tattoo for every six months.
已经六年半了，因为我每六个月就有一个点纹身。
This is Stacey's husband, Michael, Max's dad.
这是史黛西的丈夫，迈克尔，麦克斯的父亲。
He's a CPA, straight-laced kind of guy, for the most part.
在大多数情况下，他是一名注册会计师，是一个古板的人。
Max always wanted us to get tattoos, and we never did.
麦克斯一直希望我们纹身，但我们从来没有这样做。
And I feel like--
我觉得——
He had a wonderful sleeve and lots of tattoos.
他有一个很棒的袖子和很多纹身。
But-- so I'm covered in tattoos, and my right arm is an entire memorial for Maxie.
但是——所以我全身都是纹身，我的右臂就是马克西的完整纪念碑。
I've got the kids tattooed up here on my right shoulder, so.
我把孩子们纹在了我的右肩上，所以。
Never.
绝不。
But you know, it's-- tattoos are a very interesting thing.
但你知道，纹身是一件非常有趣的事情。
It's less than the least I can do, but it does help me through the pain, and tattooing really, how I see it from my perspective, is just socially acceptable cutting.
这虽然不是我能做的，但它确实帮助我度过了痛苦，而且从我的角度来看，纹身确实是社会可以接受的切割方式。
Max was a funny kid, always loved playing pranks, who, by 15, was struggling with drug addiction, going in and out of treatment.
马克斯是个有趣的孩子，总是喜欢恶作剧，15 岁时，他就开始与毒瘾作斗争，时常接受治疗。
He overdosed when he was 25 in his parents' house.
25 岁时，他在父母家里吸毒过量。
And after he died, for a while, Michael and Stacey were around friends and family who knew what had happened.
在他去世后的一段时间内，迈克尔和史黛西都在朋友和家人身边，他们知道发生了什么事。
So nobody asked those "Do you have kids" sort of questions.
所以没有人问“你有孩子吗”之类的问题。
But then Stacey traveled to a conference in Albuquerque.
但后来史黛西前往阿尔伯克基参加一个会议。
She was sitting down for lunch next to a couple-- friendly, blonde woman and her husband.
她坐在一对夫妇旁边吃午饭——友好的金发女人和她的丈夫。
And they began asking Stacey where she was from and what she did-- and then, finally, those questions.
他们开始问史黛西来自哪里、做什么——最后，这些问题。
"Do you have kids?" "How old are they?" And the woman was, you know, kind of Southern, very sweet, very bubbly.
“你有孩子吗？” “他们多大了？”你知道，这个女人是南方人，非常可爱，非常活泼。
And when people are like that with me, you know, I'm pretty open.
当人们对我这样的时候，你知道，我很开放。
And so I felt like being authentic.
所以我觉得自己是真实的。
And I told her, you know, one of my children died of an overdose two years ago.
我告诉她，你知道，我的一个孩子两年前死于服药过量。
And now, I have one.
现在，我有了一个。
This did not go over well.
这件事进行得并不顺利。
Stacey This woman and her husband-- it really upset them.
史黛西 这个女人和她的丈夫——这真的让他们很不安。
They couldn't-- they just couldn't handle the conversation.
他们不能——他们只是无法处理谈话。
I just saw this major pity face, with the open mouth and the, oh, OK.
我刚刚看到这张可怜的脸，张着嘴，哦，好吧。
And does the conversation with them kind of stall out at that point, and then they kind of go?
与他们的谈话是否会在那时陷入僵局，然后他们就离开了？
Totally stalled.
完全停滞了。
They never talked to me again.
他们再也没有和我说过话。
Of course, over time, this happened again and again.
当然，随着时间的推移，这种情况一再发生。
Strangers would ask them these sorts of questions.
陌生人会问他们这类问题。
And when they'd answer, it'd suck all the air out of the room, which made Michael especially uncomfortable.
当他们回答时，房间里的空气就会被吸走，这让迈克尔特别不舒服。
He never liked sharing this stuff with strangers.
他从来不喜欢与陌生人分享这些东西。
He's more of a private person.
他是一个比较注重隐私的人。
But together, he and Stacey came up with a strategy for how to handle things.
但他和史黛西一起想出了一个处理事情的策略。
When we're out and about and the question comes up, we look at each other just a little, imperceptibly so, so nobody could really pick up what's going on.
当我们出去走动时，问题出现了，我们会不知不觉地互相看一眼，所以没有人能真正了解发生了什么。
And then usually, Stacey will answer however she answers, and I support her unreservedly.
通常情况下，史黛西怎么回答都会回答，我毫无保留地支持她。
A lot of the times, I actually lie.
很多时候，我其实是在撒谎。
We have two kids.
我们有两个孩子。
This is their ages.
这是他们的年龄。
Talk to you later.
我们回聊。
[CHUCKLES] And keep it short and sweet.
[笑]并保持简短而甜蜜。
Because sometimes the white lie is better for that person.
因为有时善意的谎言对那个人来说更好。
Because they're at a party, they're out having fun, and they definitely don't want to hear about your dead child.
因为他们正在参加聚会，他们出去玩，他们绝对不想听到你死去的孩子的消息。
And so on they went, answering some questions about their kids and bobbing and weaving around others for six and a half years-- until this one day last November, when they got themselves into a situation that was very different from any that they'd been in before-- and very public.
就这样，他们继续回答一些关于孩子的问题，并在六年半的时间里与其他人打交道——直到去年十一月的这一天，当时他们陷入了一种与以前截然不同的境地——而且非常公开。
One thing to know about Stacey and Michael is they both spend a lot of their time working at a recovery center for people struggling with addiction.
关于史黛西和迈克尔，需要了解的一件事是，他们都花了很多时间在康复中心工作，为那些与毒瘾作斗争的人服务。
And sometimes they hang out with the other staff and clients there.
有时他们会和那里的其他员工和客户一起出去玩。
And so I saw that they were going to a show at the Hollywood Improv where Sarah Silverman was performing, and I'm like, oh, my god, I love Sarah Silverman.
所以我看到他们要去好莱坞即兴表演，莎拉·西尔弗曼正在表演，我就想，哦，天哪，我爱莎拉·西尔弗曼。
I want to go.
我想去。
I want to go.
我想去。
And I said when we got there, I go, I want to sit front row, center.
我说，当我们到达那里时，我走了，我想坐在前排中间。
I want to get heckled.
我想被质问。
[CHUCKLES] I want to be right under Sarah Silverman.
[咯咯笑]我想在莎拉·西尔弗曼 (Sarah Silverman) 的领导下。
I want her to heckle me if possible.
如果可能的话，我希望她能质问我。
Or me-- I guess we heckle them.
或者我——我想我们会质问他们。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I just wanted to be a part of it.
我只是想成为其中的一部分。
They get seats, front row center.
他们有座位，前排中间。
But before Sarah Silverman came on stage that night at the Hollywood Improv, there was this opener-- guy named Adam Ray, early 40s, wearing a Mariners cap.
但那天晚上，在莎拉·西尔弗曼 (Sarah Silverman) 登上好莱坞即兴表演舞台之前，有一个开场白——名叫亚当·雷 (Adam Ray) 的男子，四十岁出头，戴着水手队的帽子。
And he's got this backing band-- drums, keyboard, backup singers.
他有一支伴奏乐队——鼓手、键盘手、和声歌手。
[MUSIC PLAYING] And he ends his set with a song about how all his friends with kids are miserable and boring now.
[音乐播放] 他以一首歌曲结束了他的演出，歌曲讲述了他所有有孩子的朋友现在是如何痛苦和无聊的。
(SINGING) A lot of my friends-- they have kids.
（唱歌）我的很多朋友——他们都有孩子。
Ooh, good for you.
哦，对你有好处。
Ohhh, good for you.
哦哦，对你有好处。
Who cares?
谁在乎？
Who cares?
谁在乎？
Who cares?
谁在乎？
Who cares?
谁在乎？
But then the song shifts.
但随后歌曲发生了变化。
Adam Ray says-- or sings-- that he and his wife are still deciding about having kids.
亚当·雷说——或者唱道——他和他的妻子仍在决定要不要孩子。
And suddenly, he turns to the crowd, wants to find someone with kids who can make an argument for having them.
突然，他转向人群，想找到一个有孩子的人，可以为拥有孩子提出论据。
Adam starts in the front row, with the guy a few seats away from Stacey and Michael.
亚当从前排开始，他离史黛西和迈克尔只有几个座位。
(SINGING) Do you have kids?
（唱）你有孩子吗？
Audience Member No!
观众会员不！
(SINGING) Hell, yeah.
（唱）天啊，是啊。
Michael So the minute the word "kids" came up, I went on high alert.
迈克尔 所以，当“孩子”这个词出现时，我就高度警惕。
And I just had a feeling, oh, my god, we're sitting in the front row.
我只是有一种感觉，哦，天哪，我们坐在前排。
Is he going to come to us?
他会来找我们吗？
(SINGING) Do you have kids?
（唱）你有孩子吗？
Audience Member Fuck no.
观众会员他妈的没有。
[LAUGHTER] Adam Ray (SINGING) Can somebody stick to the script.
[笑声] Adam Ray（唱歌）有人能坚持剧本吗？
[LAUGHTER] Michael So I'm nervous, because I don't know what I'm going to say.
[笑声] Michael 所以我很紧张，因为我不知道我要说什么。
I don't know how I'm going to deal with it.
我不知道我该如何处理它。
And remember, we're in a comedy club, and even though Stacey and I subconsciously communicate with one another, we can't do that here in this venue and look at each other and get an idea of, what are you thinking, what are you thinking, without talking.
请记住，我们在一个喜剧俱乐部，即使史黛西和我下意识地互相交流，我们也不能在这个场所这样做，互相看着对方，不说话就知道你在想什么，你在想什么。
So I'm there, sort of, in a desert, waiting.
所以我就在那里，在沙漠里，等待着。
And then, I saw him coming to me.
然后，我看到他向我走来。
Of course.
当然。
So he comes to me, do you have any kids?
于是他来找我，你有孩子吗？
(SINGING) Do you have kids?
（唱）你有孩子吗？
Michael Damn right, I do.
迈克尔该死的，我知道。
(SINGING) That's what I'm talking about!
（唱）这就是我所说的！
Pretty assertive, for the guy who doesn't like talking about this.
对于一个不喜欢谈论这个的人来说，非常自信。
I was thinking about, what are you-- fucking-- you don't have kids and you're proud?
我在想，你在想什么——妈的——你没有孩子却很自豪？
Like, shut the fuck up and get out.
就像，他妈的闭嘴，滚出去。
Right?
正确的？
You know?
你知道？
So there probably was a little attitude, perhaps.
所以也许有一点态度。
You think?
您认为？
[LAUGHTER] And, uh, I figured that would be it.
[笑声] 而且，呃，我想就是这样了。
(SINGING) How many kids do you have?
（唱）你有几个孩子？
Can you help change our minds today with whatever you say about the blessings kids come to be?
今天，您所说的关于孩子们的祝福能否帮助我们改变想法？
How many kids do you have?
你有几个孩子？
Is it one?
是一个吗？
How many kids do you have?
你有几个孩子？
How many kids do you have?
你有几个孩子？
You have--
你有——
Two.
二。
Chris Benderev And he's still not done.
Chris Benderev 他还没有完成。
(SINGING) Two, two kids.
（唱）两个，两个孩子。
Which one is your favorite?
你最喜欢哪一个？
There's always-- 'cause there's always one that you're like, you can go back inside your mom.
总有——因为总有一个你喜欢的，你可以回到你妈妈的体内。
The tall one or the short one?
高的还是矮的？
Which one is your favorite?
你最喜欢哪一个？
Which one do you want more than the other?
你比另一个更想要哪一个？
They're definitely probably not here, so you can say, so you can say, which one you forgot the birthday of.
他们肯定不在这里，所以你可以说，所以你可以说，你忘记了哪一个的生日。
You wouldn't mind if they took the bus to Irvine tonight.
如果他们今晚乘公共汽车去欧文，你不会介意的。
First of all, how old are your kids?
首先，你的孩子多大了？
So he finally comes down to me with a microphone-- How old are your kids?
所以他终于拿着麦克风来找我——你的孩子多大了？
And that's where I was having difficulty calculating.
这就是我难以计算的地方。
Because nobody asks me how old they are, typically.
因为通常没人问我他们多大了。
So the first thing that went through my mind was-- well, Sabrina's 26, and by that time, I was fucked.
所以我脑子里想到的第一件事是——好吧，萨布丽娜已经 26 岁了，到那时，我完蛋了。
Because there was no time to figure out, OK, so Max is 31.
因为没有时间去弄清楚，好吧，所以 Max 是 31 岁。
That didn't happen.
那没有发生。
While Michael's thinking, Adam the comedian keeps holding the microphone, waiting.
当迈克尔思考时，喜剧演员亚当一直拿着麦克风等待。
This dad is taking too long to answer.
这位爸爸花了太长时间才回答。
And then, finally--
然后，最后——
(SINGING) Oh, my god, you don't know.
（唱歌）哦，天啊，你不知道。
Wait a second.
等一下。
You're bringing down the energy of the show with your lack of knowledge of your kids.
由于你对孩子缺乏了解，你正在降低节目的活力。
I felt protective over him in that moment.
那一刻我对他产生了保护欲。
Like, that's a loaded question, and that's why he can't answer you.
就像，这是一个沉重的问题，这就是为什么他无法回答你。
(SINGING) Here's the mom.
（唱歌）这是妈妈。
Mom, how old are the kids?
妈妈，孩子们几岁了？
Mom, Mom, do you know if you have kids?
妈妈，妈妈，你知道你有孩子吗？
Dad doesn't know.
爸爸不知道。
Dad doesn't know how old his children are.
爸爸不知道他的孩子多大了。
And then, I thought to myself, oh, now, I've got to tell the truth.
然后，我心想，哦，现在，我必须说实话。
And so in a split second-- very impulsive moment-- I said, I'm sorry to tell you this, but one of our kids is actually dead.
所以在一瞬间——非常冲动的时刻——我说，我很遗憾地告诉你这一点，但我们的一个孩子实际上已经死了。
I'm sorry to tell you, but one is actually dead.
我很遗憾地告诉你，但实际上已经死了一个。
No!
不！
Adam Ray (SINGING) Oh.
亚当·雷（唱）哦。
Ohh.
哦。
What the fuck!
搞什么鬼！
(SINGING) Oh, my god.
（唱歌）哦，天啊。
Adam Ray (SINGING) Oh.
亚当·雷（唱）哦。
RIP.
安息吧。
RIP.
安息吧。
RIP.
安息吧。
(SINGING) RIP.
（唱）安息吧。
Adam Ray (SINGING) Ohh.
亚当·雷（演唱）哦。
Ohh.
哦。
What the fuck.
搞什么鬼。
Ah, that's a-- I'm taking a sip of my Casa Azul.
啊，那是——我正在喝一口我的 Casa Azul。
On stage, no one quite knows what to do.
在舞台上，没有人完全知道该怎么做。
One of the backup singers puts her hands over her face.
一位和声歌手用手捂住脸。
The keyboard player just shakes his head like, no.
键盘手只是摇头，表示“不”。
And then, I realized, like, uh-oh, I just screwed the show.
然后，我意识到，呃，哦，我刚刚搞砸了演出。
Ohh.
哦。
(SINGING) RIP.
（唱）安息吧。
Well, I'm so sorry.
嗯，我很抱歉。
(SPEAKING) Wow, all right.
（说话）哇，好吧。
(SINGING) This song has taken a turn.
（唱）这首歌已经转了。
[LAUGHTER] Chris Benderev This moment for the comedian seems pretty insurmountable, right?
[笑声] Chris Benderev 对于这位喜剧演员来说，这一刻似乎是难以克服的，对吧？
Like, what could he possibly do to save his set after that?
比如，在那之后他能做什么来拯救他的作品呢？
I called him up-- Adam Ray-- and he said he considered changing the subject, but chose not to.
我给他——亚当·雷——打电话，他说他考虑过改变话题，但最终选择不这么做。
(SINGING) This song is taking a turn.
（唱歌）这首歌正在轮流。
(SPEAKING) Well.
（说话）好吧。
Don't have kids.
不要有孩子。
Don't have kids.
不要有孩子。
OK.
好的。
(SINGING) So that's what I'm looking for, so we can end this song on a higher note than we are right now.
（唱歌）这就是我正在寻找的，这样我们就能以比现在更高的音调结束这首歌。
And finally, it's actually Stacey who saves the day.
最后，实际上是史黛西拯救了世界。
She motions for Adam the comedian, and he bends down and points his mic at her.
她向喜剧演员亚当示意，他弯下腰，将麦克风指向她。
And then she says--
然后她说——
Our dead son would think this is hilarious.
我们死去的儿子会觉得这很搞笑。
I said, our dead son would think this was hilarious.
我说，我们死去的儿子会觉得这很搞笑。
(SINGING) That's the best compliment I've ever received.
（唱）这是我收到过的最好的赞美。
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, her dead son would think it's hilarious.
是啊，是啊，是啊，是啊，她死去的儿子会觉得这很搞笑。
Yeah, yeah--
是啊是啊——
It wasn't a lie at all.
这根本不是谎言。
Our dead son would have thought this was hilarious.
我们死去的儿子一定会觉得这很搞笑。
He would have been like, oh, my god, of course my mom stepped in a big pile of shit.
他会说，哦，天哪，我妈妈当然踩到了一大堆屎。
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
Then, Adam gets an idea.
然后，亚当想到了一个主意。
Adam Ray (SINGING) What's the name of your son who's passed on?
Adam Ray（唱） 你去世的儿子叫什么名字？
Max.
最大限度。
Adam Ray (SINGING) His name was Max.
亚当·雷（唱歌）他的名字叫马克斯。
Max.
最大限度。
Let's give it up for Max right now.
我们现在就为麦克斯放弃吧。
[CROWD CHEERING] (SINGING) Give it up for Max right now.
[人群欢呼]（唱歌）现在就为麦克斯放弃吧。
Give it up for Max right now.
现在就为麦克斯放弃吧。
Yeah.
是的。
Give it up for Max right now.
现在就为麦克斯放弃吧。
Yeah, give it up for Max right now.
是啊，现在就为了麦克斯放弃吧。
Yeah, give it up for Max right now.
是啊，现在就为了麦克斯放弃吧。
Yeah, give it up for Max right now.
是啊，现在就为了麦克斯放弃吧。
Yeah, give it up for Max right now.
是啊，现在就为了麦克斯放弃吧。
Yeah, give it up for Max right now.
是啊，现在就为了麦克斯放弃吧。
[CROWD CHEERING] Max, baby!
[人群欢呼]麦克斯，宝贝！
You guys are amazing.
你们太棒了。
Thank you so much.
太感谢了。
The video of Adam's set actually made the rounds on TikTok and Instagram afterward.
Adam 的视频随后在 TikTok 和 Instagram 上流传。
Stacey says she read every last comment-- all these people rejoicing for and remembering her son.
史黛西说她读了每一条评论——所有这些人都为她的儿子感到高兴并纪念她。
I've listened to that thing, like, 100 times, I think, as I keep enjoying it.
我想我已经听了大概 100 遍了，因为我一直很喜欢它。
I mean, it was like, it was incredible.
我的意思是，这就像，这太不可思议了。
It just was an incredible moment in time.
这真是一个令人难以置信的时刻。
Lots of people have asked them questions, putting them in this complicated spot.
很多人向他们提出问题，让他们陷入了这个复杂的境地。
But this time, in front of all those people, that ended with a room full of strangers cheering for Max-- this time is their favorite.
但这一次，在所有这些人面前，最终以满屋子的陌生人为麦克斯欢呼而告终——这一次是他们最喜欢的。
Chris Benderev is one of the producers of our show.
克里斯·本德列夫是我们节目的制片人之一。
Coming up-- a question about a 400-year-old play and the personal question underneath that question.
接下来——一个关于一部 400 年历史的戏剧的问题以及该问题背后的个人问题。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program-- the question trap.
今天的节目——提问陷阱。
What we're talking about today is those questions that can seem benevolent, innocent, harmless, innocuous, could not hurt a fly.
我们今天谈论的是那些看似仁慈、天真的、无害、无害、连一只苍蝇都伤不了的问题。
But underneath, they're really asking something else, or quietly making a point about something else.
但在内心深处，他们实际上是在问别的事情，或者悄悄地表达别的观点。
We've arrived at question three of our program-- Question Three, How's Your Mom?
我们已经到了节目的第三个问题——问题三，你妈妈怎么样？
So we spotted this next thing we want to play you in an academic journal.
所以我们发现了我们想要在学术期刊上为您展示的下一件事。
It was originally a paper in Medical Anthropology Quarterly, written by an anthropologist named Janelle Taylor, who adapted it to read here on the radio.
它最初是《医学人类学季刊》上的一篇论文，由一位名叫詹妮尔·泰勒的人类学家撰写，她将其改编为在广播中阅读。
This one question that Janelle Taylor is writing about-- it kept showing up all the time in her personal life.
珍妮尔·泰勒正在写的这个问题——它在她的个人生活中一直出现。
And she says, as an anthropologist, she knows, when lots of people are asking the same question over and over, it means something.
她说，作为一名人类学家，她知道，当很多人一遍又一遍地问同样的问题时，这意味着什么。
And she wrote this essay to think through what is underneath that question.
她写这篇文章是为了思考这个问题背后的含义。
My mother is living with progressive dementia.
我的母亲患有进行性痴呆症。
Because I'm reading these words on the radio, I can't hear your response.
因为我正在广播中读到这些话，所以我听不到你的回应。
But I'm listening for the question that, as I've learned, always comes.
但据我所知，我正在倾听这个总是会出现的问题。
Everyone, almost without exception, responds with some version of the same question.
每个人几乎无一例外地都会回答同一问题的某个版本。
Does she recognize you?
她认得你吗？
There are variants, of course.
当然，还有一些变体。
Does she still know who you are?
她还知道你是谁吗？
But does she still know your name?
但她还知道你的名字吗？
However it may be phrased, the question is always whether my mother recognizes me, meaning, can she recite the facts of who I am, what my name is, and how I'm related to her?
不管怎么说，问题始终是我母亲是否认得我，也就是说，她能说出我是谁、我叫什么、我和她有什么关系等事实吗？
When everyone keeps asking me, Does she recognize you?
当大家不断问我，她认得你吗？
I find myself thinking, that is the wrong question.
我发现自己在想，这是一个错误的问题。
I believe the question really is-- or should be-- Do you, do we, recognize her as a person who is still here?
我相信问题确实是——或者应该是——你，我们，认出她是一个还在这里的人吗？
"Does she recognize you?" The weirdness of the question becomes more obvious if you think about what would be required to answer it.
“她认得你吗？”如果你考虑一下回答这个问题需要什么，这个问题的奇怪性就会变得更加明显。
Let's say I asked my mother, What's my name?
假设我问妈妈，我叫什么名字？
Who am I?
我是谁？
How old am I?
我几岁了？
How do we know each other?
我们如何认识彼此？
Testing her that way-- what does it prove?
这样测试她——能证明什么？
What does it actually accomplish?
它实际上实现了什么？
I read a book by a journalist named Lauren Kessler.
我读了一位名叫劳伦·凯斯勒的记者写的书。
She wrote about how she would correct her own mother when her mother called her by the wrong name.
她写到，当她母亲叫错她的名字时，她会如何纠正她的母亲。
Every time she would visit her mother, she'd take framed photos from the dresser and point to them and quiz her mother.
每次她去看母亲时，她都会从梳妆台上拿出镶框的照片，并指着它们询问她的母亲。
You know who this is, don't you, Mom?
你知道这是谁，不是吗，妈妈？
Of course, she didn't.
当然，她没有。
Kessler writes, "So I told her, again and again, each visit, who is who, and then quizzed again.
凯斯勒写道：“所以每次拜访时，我都会一遍又一遍地告诉她，谁是谁，然后再次询问。
Thinking back on this now, I am appalled at my insensitivity.
现在回想起来，我对自己的麻木不仁感到震惊。
What did I think I was doing?
我以为我在做什么？
I managed to accomplish only two things.
我只完成了两件事。
I made myself miserable, and I made my mother irritable.
我让自己很痛苦，也让妈妈很烦躁。
I don't need my mother to tell me my name or how I'm related to her.
我不需要妈妈告诉我我的名字或者我和她的关系。
I already know these things, and I know that she has dementia.
我已经知道这些事情了，而且我知道她患有痴呆症。
So why then would I make a point of asking her these questions that I know she can't possibly answer?
那么我为什么要特意问她这些我知道她不可能回答的问题呢？
It seems rude, or just mean.
这看起来很粗鲁，或者只是刻薄。
I can't bring myself to do it.
我无法让自己这么做。
I guess you could say that my mother raised me better than that."
我想你可以说我母亲把我养育得比这更好。”
"Does she recognize you?" I'm not so convinced that the inability to remember names necessarily means that a person with dementia can't recognize or care about other people.
“她认得你吗？”我不太相信无法记住名字就一定意味着痴呆症患者无法识别或关心其他人。
But very often, it does mean that other people stop recognizing and caring about them.
但很多时候，这确实意味着其他人不再认识和关心他们。
My mother was close to lots of people.
我的母亲与很多人都很亲近。
But only one friend remains present in her life.
但她的生活中只剩下一位朋友。
Every month or two, Eli Davis drives an hour and a half from her home to Seattle to visit Mom, bringing treats and hugs and her always-cheerful self.
每隔一两个月，伊莱·戴维斯 (Eli Davis) 就会开车一个半小时从家到西雅图看望妈妈，带来零食、拥抱和她总是开朗的自己。
I love her dearly for it.
我因此非常爱她。
And I wonder, where are the others?
我想知道，其他人在哪里？
Where are the couples with whom my parents socialized, the women with whom Mom spent hours and hours on the phone all through my childhood?
那些与我父母交往的夫妇，那些在我童年时期与妈妈一起花上几个小时打电话的女人在哪里？
This shouldn't surprise me as much as it has.
这不应该让我感到如此惊讶。
Maybe it's not fair to expect friends to step up.
也许期望朋友挺身而出是不公平的。
Even close family drop off.
甚至亲密的家人也会放弃。
Friendships in America are not usually expected to survive dementia.
在美国，友谊通常不会在痴呆症中幸存下来。
Friendships are often more like pleasure crafts than life rafts-- not built to brave the really rough waters.
友谊往往更像是游艇而不是救生筏——不是为了勇敢地面对汹涌的海水而建造的。
"Does she recognize you?" When people ask me whether my mother still recognizes me, they're often expressing concern for me, asking me how I'm bearing up under the burden of suffering that her dementia must place on me.
“她认得你吗？”当人们问我母亲是否还认得我时，他们常常表达对我的关心，问我如何承受她的痴呆症给我带来的痛苦。
And they're quite ready to hear about my burdens and my suffering.
他们很乐意听到我的负担和痛苦。
What they find harder to hear, I think, is that being around my mother is not a nightmare or a horror.
我想，他们觉得更难听到的是，在我母亲身边并不是一场噩梦或恐怖。
It's not like any of that.
它不像那样。
Here's what it is.
这就是它是什么。
In a cafe, as we share a scone, Mom and I make what passes for conversation.
在一家咖啡馆里，当我们分享烤饼时，妈妈和我进行了一些看似谈话的谈话。
I've learned to ask only the sort of question that doesn't require any specific information to answer.
我学会了只问不需要任何具体信息即可回答的问题。
"So, things going OK with you these days?" "How's my favorite mom doing?
“那么，你这些天过得还好吗？” “我最爱的妈妈怎么样了？
You doing all right?"
你还好吗？”
I tell her funny little stories about my kids.
我给她讲关于我孩子们的有趣的小故事。
Sometimes we leaf through a magazine, looking at pictures and commenting on them.
有时我们会翻阅杂志，查看图片并对它们进行评论。
Sometimes we look out the window, and I make general observations that require no specific response.
有时我们望向窗外，我会做出一般性的观察，不需要具体的回应。
"Looks like spring is coming." "Look at those leaves coming out on the trees." "That guy's hair is really curly." With each exchange, Mom smiles at me, beaming affectionately in that familiar, slightly conspiratorial way, as if we're both in on the same joke.
“看来春天要来了。” “看看树上长出的叶子。” “那家伙的头发真卷。”每次交流时，妈妈都会对我微笑，以那种熟悉的、略带阴谋的方式深情地微笑，就好像我们都在讲同一个笑话。
So our conversations go nowhere.
所以我们的谈话毫无进展。
But it doesn't matter what we say, really, or whether we said it before, or whether it's accurate or interesting or even comprehensible.
但实际上，我们说什么，或者我们之前是否说过，或者它是否准确、有趣，甚至是否可理解，并不重要。
The exchange is the point.
交流才是重点。
Mom and I are playing catch with touches, smiles, and gestures, as well as words, lobbing them back and forth to each other in slow, easy, underhand arcs.
妈妈和我用触碰、微笑、手势和言语来玩接球游戏，以缓慢、轻松、低手的弧线相互来回抛球。
The fact that she drops the ball more and more often doesn't stop the game from being enjoyable.
她越来越频繁地丢球这一事实并没有阻止比赛的乐趣。
It's a way of being together.
这是一种在一起的方式。
"Does she recognize you?" She may not recognize me, in a narrowly cognitive sense.
“她认得你吗？”从狭义的认知意义上来说，她可能不认识我。
But my mom does recognize me as someone who's there with her, someone familiar, perhaps.
但我妈妈确实认出了我和她在一起，也许是一个熟悉的人。
And she doesn't need to have all the details sorted out in order to care for me.
她不需要把所有的细节都搞清楚才能照顾我。
The impulse to care, the habit of caring-- these are things that run deep in my mother-- someone who, for most of her life, was very engaged in caring for other people-- her children, her husband, her grandchildren, her friends.
关心的冲动、关心的习惯——这些都是我母亲根深蒂固的东西——她一生的大部分时间都非常关心别人——她的孩子、她的丈夫、她的孙子、她的朋友。
Even some of the behavioral quirks that my mom has developed make sense to me in those terms-- as expressions of care.
甚至我妈妈养成的一些行为怪癖对我来说也是有意义的——作为关心的表达。
Here's an example.
这是一个例子。
People with dementia often engage in repetitive behaviors, and Mom is no exception.
痴呆症患者经常会做出重复的行为，妈妈也不例外。
When I take her out to a cafe, I usually get a cup of black coffee for myself and order a cup of hot chocolate for her.
当我带她去咖啡馆时，我通常会为自己点一杯黑咖啡，并为她点一杯热巧克力。
Not too hot, and don't forget the whipped cream on top.
不太热，别忘了上面的生奶油。
As we drink them, she checks constantly to see whether my cup and hers are even, whether the liquids have been drunk down to the same level.
当我们喝它们时，她不断检查我的杯子和她的杯子是否均匀，液体是否喝到同一水平。
And if not, she'll hurry up and drink more to catch up, or else, stop and wait for me.
如果没有的话，她就赶紧多喝点酒赶上，要不然就停下来等我。
Or if we share a cookie, she's concerned to make sure that the haves be the same size and that we eat them at the same rate.
或者，如果我们分享一块饼干，她会担心确保饼干的大小相同并且我们以相同的速度吃它们。
I think keeping track of whether our drinks and cookies are even comes naturally to my mother-- a woman who has always had to carefully divide quite limited resources-- first, with her own brothers, and later, among her four children.
我认为记录我们的饮料和饼干是否对我的母亲来说是很自然的事——一个总是不得不小心地分配相当有限的资源的女人——首先是她自己的兄弟，后来是她的四个孩子。
She's cared about such details all her life, and caring about them was also a way in which she cared for other people.
她一生都在关心这样的细节，关心这些细节也是她关心别人的一种方式。
Mom also does still take care of me, in some small but important ways.
妈妈仍然在一些小而重要的方面照顾我。
One time, a little more than a year ago, I stopped by the assisted living facility where she was living at the end of a very busy day in an especially hectic week.
有一次，大约一年多前，我在特别忙碌的一周结束了非常忙碌的一天后，去了她住的辅助生活设施。
I had stayed up very late the night before, trying to finish grading student papers, then spent the whole day teaching and in meetings.
前一天晚上我熬夜很晚，试图完成学生论文的批改，然后一整天都在教学和开会。
I went with her up to her room.
我陪她去了她的房间。
I turned on the TV, and we sat down together on the couch.
我打开电视，我们一起坐在沙发上。
I was exhausted.
我已经筋疲力尽了。
I leaned back and yawned.
我向后靠去，打了个哈欠。
Mom patted my hand and said to me, You're tired.
妈妈拍拍我的手对我说，你累了。
Just go ahead and sleep.
继续睡觉吧。
You can just lay down right here.
你可以就躺在这里。
And so I sat there next to my mom, holding her hand, feeling her warmth against me, all along one side of my body.
于是我坐在妈妈旁边，握着她的手，感受着她的温暖，遍布我身体的一侧。
And I leaned my head on her shoulder and slept.
我把头靠在她的肩膀上睡着了。
"Does she recognize you?" For a while after we first moved my mother into an assisted living facility, she often said that she wanted to "go home." I understood this to mean that she wanted to move back to the house where she had lived for 40 years until my father's death, the house in which I grew up.
“她认得你吗？”在我们第一次把我母亲搬进辅助生活机构后的一段时间里，她经常说她想“回家”。我的理解是，她想搬回我父亲去世前她住了 40 年的房子，也就是我长大的房子。
Usually, I responded with my own mild version of reality orientation, explaining as gently as possible that that house was all empty and cold now, and nobody was there to keep her company or help her do stuff, so it was probably better to stay here.
通常，我会用我自己温和的现实取向来回应，尽可能温和地解释说，那所房子现在空荡荡的，寒冷的，没有人在那里陪伴她或帮助她做事，所以留在这里可能更好。
One time, though, I asked her a question instead-- "You mean, home to the house up in Edmonds?"
不过有一次，我反而问了她一个问题——“你是说，埃德蒙兹那栋房子的家吗？”
"No, on the farm," she answered.
“不，在农场，”她回答。
''You go down--" With her raised arm, she traced out the curve of a long-ago road.
“你下去——”她举起手臂，描绘出一条很久以前的道路的曲线。
For the first few years of her life, my mother had lived on a small farm in southern Idaho, before her father moved the family to Seattle during World War II to seek work on the docks.
在我母亲出生的最初几年里，她住在爱达荷州南部的一个小农场里，后来她的父亲在第二次世界大战期间举家搬到西雅图去码头寻找工作。
"They're inside there," she added.
“它们就在那里，”她补充道。
"Who?" I asked.
“谁？”我问。
"My mom and my dad." My mother's in her 70s.
“我妈妈和我爸爸。”我妈妈70多岁了。
Her parents are not waiting for her inside an Idaho farmhouse.
她的父母没有在爱达荷州的农舍里等她。
You could use that evidence to draw a clear line between us.
你可以利用这些证据在我们之间划清界限。
Me here, on the side of reality, competence, personhood, recognition; her over there, on the side of delusion, incapacity, not quite fully human.
我在这里，站在现实、能力、人格、认可的一边；那边的她，处于妄想、无能、不完全人性的一面。
But what she was longing for was her childhood home.
但她最向往的还是儿时的家。
She missed her mom and dad.
她想念她的妈妈和爸爸。
She was trying, in her own way, to hold on to them, just as I was trying, against the odds, to hold on to her.
她试图以自己的方式抓住它们，就像我试图克服困难抓住她一样。
Our predicament is exactly the same.
我们的困境完全一样。
Janelle Taylor-- she is a professor at the University of Toronto, teaching medical anthropology.
珍妮尔·泰勒（Janelle Taylor）——她是多伦多大学教授医学人类学的教授。
Her mom, Charlene Taylor, died in 2019.
她的母亲夏琳·泰勒 (Charlene Taylor) 于 2019 年去世。
Janelle is collecting this essay and others about dementia into a book.
珍妮尔正在将这篇文章和其他有关痴呆症的文章收集成一本书。
You can find a link to the original academic article that she wrote at our website.
您可以在我们的网站上找到她撰写的原始学术文章的链接。
Act Four, Can I Help You?
第四幕，我可以帮你吗？
OK, here's one last example of a question that has another question lurking behind it.
好的，这是问题的最后一个例子，其背后还潜藏着另一个问题。
Question goes like this.
问题是这样的。
If Matthew scored an average of 15 points per basketball game and played 24 games in one season, how many points did he score in the season?
如果马修平均每场篮球得到15分，并且一个赛季打了24场比赛，那么他这个赛季得了多少分？
That's a question from the SHSAT, which is a standardized test given to middle school students in New York City.
这是 SHSAT 的问题，SHSAT 是针对纽约市中学生的标准化考试。
A high score on the SHSAT will get you into one of the eight top public schools in the city-- wonderful schools.
在 SHSAT 上取得高分将使您进入该市八所顶尖公立学校之一——很棒的学校。
A low score will keep you in the regular public school system, where your school may be assigned by lottery.
低分将使您留在常规公立学校系统中，您的学校可能通过抽签分配。
So the question lurking behind that math question is, Are you good enough?
所以隐藏在数学问题背后的问题是，你足够好吗？
Are you good enough to go to the best schools?
你足够优秀去最好的学校吗？
And maybe from there, to the best colleges?
也许从那里，到最好的大学？
And from there, to all the advantages you get from that kind of education, including a higher income, maybe a better job, all other sorts of stuff?
从那里开始，你从这种教育中获得的所有好处，包括更高的收入，也许更好的工作，所有其他种类的东西？
Kind of a big scary chasm opening up in the Earth behind that innocent little math problem.
在这个无辜的小数学问题背后，地球上出现了一条可怕的大裂缝。
In 2017-- Ira Glass For five years, Milo Cramer tutored kids who wanted to leap over that chasm and into those eight elite high schools.
2017 年——艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 五年来，米洛·克莱默 (Milo Cramer) 为那些想要跨越鸿沟进入这八所精英高中的孩子提供辅导。
It first made Milo feel good.
这首先让米洛感觉良好。
Because I thought I was helping children.
因为我以为我是在帮助孩子们。
And I only gradually came to understand that I was really just a fucked-up cog in a larger, fucked-up system.
我只是逐渐明白，我实际上只是一个更大的、该死的系统中的一个该死的齿轮。
This recording is from a one-person show that Milo did this fall about the kids they tutored.
这段录音来自米洛今年秋天制作的一场关于他们辅导的孩子们的单人节目。
I worry a little that it's going to be hard to get across over the radio what's so special about this show.
我有点担心很难通过广播了解这个节目的特别之处。
Most of it is songs-- songs about the kids that Milo tutored-- these very funny and heartbreaking portraits of these middle school and high school kids and Milo's relationship to them.
其中大部分是歌曲——关于米洛辅导的孩子们的歌曲——这些非常有趣和令人心碎的描绘这些初中和高中的孩子以及米洛与他们的关系。
Like, for example, the boy who takes a lot of pleasure denouncing God and the Democrats.
例如，就像那个以谴责上帝和民主党为乐的男孩。
(SINGING) Jason's 16, and he proudly identifies as libertarian.
（唱歌）杰森 16 岁，他自豪地认为自己是自由主义者。
He's a 16-year-old libertarian.
他是一个 16 岁的自由主义者。
I'm kind of afraid of him.
我有点怕他。
Milo is not a great singer.
米洛不是一个伟大的歌手。
They would tell you that themself.
他们自己会告诉你这一点。
Or a skilled musician.
或者是一位技艺精湛的音乐家。
But they've written songs in secret since they were the age that these kids are that they're writing about.
但从他们所写的这些孩子的年龄起，他们就开始秘密写歌了。
And there's just something in the intentional roughness and sincerity of what they're doing that kind of matches the rawness of these kids and their feelings-- and of Milo's reactions to them.
他们所做的事情故意粗暴而真诚，与这些孩子的原始性和他们的感受以及米洛对他们的反应相匹配。
When a girl from Queens named Dana, who's better at math than Milo, and probably should be a scientist or engineer someday, tells Milo that if she does end up in college, she wants to study theater, Milo, who's broke and struggling and wanting to do theater, sings--
当一个来自皇后区的女孩达娜（她的数学比米洛更好，也许有一天会成为一名科学家或工程师）告诉米洛，如果她最终进入大学，她想学习戏剧时，身无分文、挣扎求存、想做戏剧的米洛唱道——
(SINGING) I want to tell her not to!
（唱）我想告诉她不要这样做！
I want to tell her not to!
我想告诉她不要这样！
You cannot study theater!
你不能学戏剧！
You have to study math!
你必须学数学！
You're good at math!
你数学很好啊！
You're failing math?!
你数学不及格？！
You want to study theater?!
你想学戏剧吗？！
Theater doesn't matter!
剧不重要！
There's a pandemic!
有流行病！
Lots of the songs in the show are about the kids' anxieties about school and this test and all the pressure they feel from their parents.
节目中的很多歌曲都是关于孩子们对学校和这次考试的焦虑以及他们从父母那里感受到的所有压力。
And they're about Milo trying to figure out not just how to teach them, but what they possibly could say to comfort them.
米洛不仅试图弄清楚如何教他们，而且还试图弄清楚他们可以说些什么来安慰他们。
Faith, for example, is a terrible reader.
例如，信仰是一个糟糕的读者。
(SINGING) Faith says, I think I'm stupid.
（唱歌）信仰说，我认为我很愚蠢。
I can't read.
我无法阅读。
I guess I'm stupid.
我想我是愚蠢的。
I get Bs.
我得到了 B。
I must be stupid.
我一定是个傻子。
I say, I don't think you're stupid.
我说，我不认为你傻。
Faith repeats, I'm sure I'm stupid.
信仰重复一遍，我确信我是愚蠢的。
If you think I'm smart, please prove it.
如果你认为我很聪明，请证明给你看。
I tell her, intelligence is unmeasurable and different in every individual.
我告诉她，智力是无法测量的，而且每个人的智力都不同。
Faith just looks at me and says, no. I say, yes.
信仰只是看着我说，不。我说，是的。
She says, no. She says, no, no, no, no.
她说，不。她说，不，不，不，不。
I say, hey, when I was your age, my mom hid all my report cards from me.
我说，嘿，当我像你这个年纪的时候，我妈妈把我所有的成绩单都藏了起来。
When I asked her what my grades were, she always told me, you're right where you should be.
当我问她我的成绩是多少时，她总是告诉我，你就在你应该在的地方。
You're right where you should be.
你就在你应该在的地方。
Our radio show that is about questions.
我们的广播节目是关于问题的。
And to close out the show, I'm just going to play you one more thing.
为了结束演出，我还要再给你们表演一件事。
This is one full song from Milo's show about a question that a student faced.
这是米洛节目中的一首完整歌曲，讲述了一名学生面临的问题。
It's an essay question.
这是一道论述题。
(SINGING) Divya has to respond to the question, Is Shakespeare's Othello racist?
（唱歌）迪维亚必须回答这个问题：莎士比亚的《奥赛罗》是种族主义者吗？
in a five-paragraph essay for her white teacher by Monday.
周一为她的白人老师写了一篇五段文章。
And she says, just tell me the answer, please.
她说，请告诉我答案。
I have so much homework this week.
这周我有很多作业。
I need to get this done as fast as possible.
我需要尽快完成这件事。
Is Othello racist?
奥赛罗是种族主义者吗？
Yes or no?
是还是不是？
I'm like, have you read the play?
我问你，你看过这部剧吗？
She's like, yes, and I watched the Laurence Fishburne movie.
她说，是的，我看了劳伦斯·菲什伯恩的电影。
I'm like, great, so what do you think?
我说，太好了，那你觉得怎么样？
She's like, I don't know.
她就像，我不知道。
I'm 15.
我15岁了。
I'm afraid to say the wrong thing.
我害怕说错话。
I'm like, same.
我就像，一样。
[AUDIENCE LAUGHTER] This stuff is hard to talk about, but you've got to trust yourself, even though you've also got to constantly question and interrogate yourself.
[观众笑声]这个东西很难说，但是你必须相信自己，尽管你也必须不断地质疑和拷问自己。
Either way, you've got to try.
无论哪种方式，你都必须尝试。
You've got to try.
你必须尝试一下。
You've got to try, try, try, try, try.
你必须尝试，尝试，尝试，尝试，尝试。
I'm desperate to do a good job.
我非常渴望做好工作。
Divya's Indian-American mom can hear us in the next room.
迪维亚的印度裔美国妈妈可以在隔壁房间听到我们的声音。
I do not know what to do.
我不知道该怎么办。
Divya looks at the assignment rubric to see how she'll be graded.
迪维亚查看作业评分标准，看看她将如何评分。
She needs a clear, defensible thesis, followed by three unique body paragraphs.
她需要一个清晰、站得住脚的论文，后面是三个独特的正文段落。
I can tell she's overwhelmed.
我可以看出她不知所措。
I say, remember, grades don't matter, Divya.
我说，记住，成绩并不重要，迪维亚。
Learning can't be measured.
学习是无法衡量的。
Just trust how you feel you did.
只要相信你的感觉就可以了。
She says, maybe grades don't matter if you're rich, but in my family, grades are so important.
她说，如果你有钱的话，也许成绩并不重要，但在我家里，成绩是如此重要。
I think I thought at first that Divya didn't have the words to talk about the play in any nuanced way.
我想我一开始以为迪维亚没有足够的语言来以任何细致入微的方式谈论这部剧。
But now, I start to think that her understanding is deeper than my own.
但现在，我开始觉得她的理解比我更深。
And she might never talk to me about Othello honestly and shouldn't have to.
她可能永远不会也不应该和我诚实地谈论奥赛罗。
Finally, I decide she just wants me to provide her with some easy answer to satisfy her teacher and get her through the semester unscathed.
最后，我决定她只是希望我为她提供一些简单的答案，以满足她的老师的要求，并让她毫发无伤地度过这个学期。
So I'm like--
所以我就像——
Your teacher is either looking for an essay that's like, yes, Othello is very racist.
你的老师要么正在寻找一篇类似“是的，奥赛罗非常种族主义”的文章。
The story of the play is, there's this super professionally and romantically successful Black man all of these white guys are jealous of and cannot handle.
该剧的故事是，有一个在职业和浪漫上都超级成功的黑人，所有这些白人都嫉妒并且无法应对。
That tension is resolved when the white guys trick Othello into murdering his wife, thereby turning him into the brutish stereotype they wanted him to be all along.
当白人欺骗奥赛罗谋杀他的妻子，从而将他变成他们一直希望他成为的野蛮刻板印象时，这种紧张关系就得到了解决。
That the title role was performed in blackface for centuries underscores this.
几个世纪以来，片头角色都是以黑脸表演，这凸显了这一点。
Moreover-- That's a good-- that's kind of a transition word, Divya-- "moreover," i.e. "my next body paragraph will be about." Moreover, Desdemona's whiteness, in contrast, is repeatedly presented as innately good, innocent, and desirable.
而且——这是一个很好的——这是一个过渡词，Divya——“此外，”即“我的下一个正文段落将是关于”。此外，苔丝狄蒙娜的白人形象则相反，一再被描绘成天生善良、天真无邪、令人向往。
That's one essay you could write that would get an A.
这是一篇你可以写得 A 的文章。
The other essay you could write that would also get an A goes, no, Othello is not super racist.
你可以写的另一篇也能得到 A 的文章是，不，奥赛罗不是超级种族主义者。
Othello is a flawed attempt at anti-racism, in that it's Shakespeare's only play to center a dynamic Black protagonist.
《奥赛罗》是反种族主义的一次有缺陷的尝试，因为这是莎士比亚唯一一部以充满活力的黑人为主角的戏剧。
The play was banned in apartheid South Africa for depicting an interracial relationship.
该剧因描绘跨种族关系而在种族隔离的南非被禁。
Moreover--
而且——
[AUDIENCE LAUGHTER] The play's most prejudiced characters are always presented as either stupid, Rodrigo, or evil, Iago.
[观众笑声] 剧中最有偏见的角色总是被描绘成愚蠢的罗德里戈或邪恶的伊阿古。
It would be a mistake to conflate the perspectives of these characters with the meanings of the work as a whole.
将这些人物的观点与整个作品的意义混为一谈是错误的。
Either of those essays would get As, Divya.
Divya，这两篇文章中的任何一篇都会获得 A。
But what your teacher's reductive yes-or-no prompt does not allow for is an essay that's like, what I think I think, which is something like, Othello is a product and reflection of another culture, Elizabethan England, 400 years old, written at a time when race was just being invented as a system of power.
但是，你的老师的简化的是或否提示不允许写一篇文章，就像我想的那样，就像《奥赛罗》是另一种文化的产物和反映，这种文化是伊丽莎白时代的英国，有 400 年的历史，写于种族刚刚被发明为权力体系的时代。
The play later became a cultural export of the British Empire, which colonized Black and Brown people around the world.
该剧后来成为大英帝国的文化输出，大英帝国在世界各地殖民黑人和棕色人种。
The play remains a bestseller of the Shakespeare-industrial complex.
该剧至今仍是莎士比亚工业园区的畅销书。
In other words, Divya, Othello and racism are so indelibly linked, that the question, Is Othello racist?
换句话说，迪维亚、奥赛罗和种族主义有着不可磨灭的联系，以至于问题是“奥赛罗是种族主义者吗？”
seems to confuse both what racism is and what artworks are.
似乎混淆了什么是种族主义和什么是艺术品。
In my opinion, what's really racist, Divya, is that we are required to read Othello for the billionth time, that it's on the curriculum at your Brooklyn public high school, even though the play is boring--
在我看来，真正的种族主义，迪维亚，是我们被要求读十亿遍《奥赛罗》，它出现在你们布鲁克林公立高中的课程中，尽管这部剧很无聊——
[AUDIENCE LAUGHTER] --when we could be reading any number of contemporary Black playwrights.
[观众笑声]——当我们可以阅读任意数量的当代黑人剧作家时。
[STRUMMING UKULELE] (SINGING) Divya responds, don't hate me, but I kind of liked reading Othello.
[弹奏尤克里里琴]（唱歌）Divya 回答，不要恨我，但我有点喜欢读《奥赛罗》。
The story is really crazy, and the language is really pretty.
故事真的很疯狂，语言也真的很漂亮。
[LAUGHTER, APPLAUSE] Ira Glass Milo Cramer, in the one-person show, School Pictures, recorded at Playwrights Horizons in New York.
[笑声，掌声] 艾拉·格拉斯·米洛·克莱默 (Ira Glass Milo Cramer) 在纽约剧作家地平线 (Playwrights Horizons) 录制的独角剧《学校图片》中。
To hear more songs for the show or to book them to come to your town, go to milocramer.com.
要聆听更多节目歌曲或预订他们来到您的城镇，请访问 milocramer.com。
That's Cramer with a C-- milocramer.com.
这是带有 C 的 Cramer——milocramer.com。
Well, our program was produced today by Zoe Chace.
嗯，我们今天的节目是由 Zoe Chace 制作的。
The people who put together today's show include Jendayi Bonds, Sean Cole, Michal Comite, Bethel Habte, Chana Joffe-Walt, Katherine Rae Mondo, Stowe Nelson, Safiya Riddle, Lilly Sullivan, Frances Swanson, Christopher Swetala, Marisa Robertson-Textor Matt Tierney, Nancy Updike, Julie Whitaker, and Diane Wu.
今天节目的制作人包括 Jendayi Bonds、Sean Cole、Michal Comite、Bethel Habte、Chana Joffe-Walt、Katherine Rae Mondo、Stowe Nelson、Safiya Riddle、Lilly Sullivan、Frances Swanson、Christopher Swetala、Marisa Robertson-Textor Matt Tierney、Nancy Updike、Julie Whitaker 和 Diane Wu。
Our managing editor is Sarah Abdurrahman.
我们的总编辑是萨拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sarah Abdurrahman)。
Our senior editor is David Kestenbaum.
我们的高级编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。
Our executive editor is Emanuele Berry.
我们的执行编辑是 Emanuele Berry。
Original music for the comedian story by Ryan Rumery, who also helped mix the show.
喜剧演员故事的原创音乐由瑞安·鲁默里 (Ryan Rumery) 创作，他也参与了该剧的混音工作。
Special thanks today to Lauren Kessler.
今天特别感谢劳伦·凯斯勒。
Her book is Finding Life in the Land of Alzheimer's.
她的书是《在阿尔茨海默氏症之地寻找生命》。
Also thanks to Galya Walt, Michael Rosenthal, Diana Taylor-William, Mike Taylor, Pat Taylor, David Johnson, Rachel Jackson, Tom O'Keefe, and Jolie Myers.
还要感谢加利亚·沃尔特、迈克尔·罗森塔尔、戴安娜·泰勒-威廉、迈克·泰勒、帕特·泰勒、大卫·约翰逊、雷切尔·杰克逊、汤姆·奥基夫和朱莉·迈尔斯。
Our website-- thisamericanlife.org, where you can stream our archive of over 800 episodes for absolutely free.
我们的网站 -- thisamericanlife.org，您可以在这里免费观看我们的 800 多集档案。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our program's confounder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们计划的混杂者 Torey Malatia 先生。
You know, he kind of hurt my feelings this morning.
你知道，今天早上他有点伤害了我的感情。
We ran into each other.
我们撞见了。
He asked, How am I doing?
他问，我怎么样？
I started to answer, then he was like--
我开始回答，然后他就像——
(SINGING) Well, who cares?
（唱歌）好吧，谁在乎呢？
Who cares?
谁在乎？
Who cares?
谁在乎？
Who cares?
谁在乎？
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。