822: The Words to Say It - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #822 | January 26, 2024 822: The Words to Say It Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 822 集 | 2024 年 1 月 26 日 822：要说的话 注意：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass Susanna and Margaret were close.
序言： 序言 艾拉·格拉斯 苏珊娜和玛格丽特很亲密。
It was a real friendship and a work friendship.
这是真正的友谊和工作友谊。
They talked four or five times a week, every week for the last 18 years.
他们每周聊四五次，过去 18 年每周都这样。
We would start talking about some work piece of business.
我们会开始谈论一些工作上的事情。
And then we would digress into a combination of motherly advice from her and gossiping, which would last for 30 to 45 more minutes.
然后我们就会离题，一边听她母亲般的建议，一边闲聊，这又会持续 30 到 45 分钟。
She had a lot of advice, and she didn't mince her words about what I was doing wrong.
她给了我很多建议，并且毫不讳言地指出我做错了什么。
She also was very loving and there for me.
她也非常有爱心并且支持我。
Margaret died on Tuesday.
玛格丽特于周二去世。
Margaret Riley is her name.
玛格丽特·赖利是她的名字。
She was somebody who managed screenwriters and directors and actors, too.
她也是管理编剧、导演和演员的人。
She was 58.
她58岁了。
Susanna is Susanna Fogel, one of her clients.
苏珊娜是苏珊娜·福格尔，她的客户之一。
And she says the remarkable thing about Margaret is how up until the end, she kept hidden how sick she was.
她说玛格丽特的非凡之处在于，直到最后，她都隐瞒了自己的病情。
The cancer had returned.
癌症又复发了。
It was a secret from nearly everybody.
这对几乎每个人来说都是一个秘密。
Even if you pushed and asked, she would not divulge that piece of it.
就算你再追问，她也不会透露那部分。
Like, I had texted her and said, hey, I feel like we just talk about trivial stuff.
就像，我给她发短信说，嘿，我觉得我们只是在谈论一些琐碎的事情。
And can we talk about your health?
我们可以谈谈你的健康吗？
And she said, I actually love to be distracted from talking about my health.
她说，我实际上喜欢分散注意力，不去谈论我的健康。
Let's talk about you.
我们来谈谈你吧。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Susanna Fogel And she would do that a lot.
苏珊娜·福格尔（Susanna Fogel） 她经常这样做。
Margaret didn't want to get into it.
玛格丽特不想卷入其中。
She wanted to engage with people the way she always had.
她想以她一贯的方式与人交往。
She liked working.
她喜欢工作。
She wanted to keep at it the way she was used to.
她想保持她习惯的方式。
And that continued literally until the day she died, Tuesday this week.
这种情况一直持续到她去世的那一天，也就是本周的星期二。
Doctors had already told her that she didn't have much time.
医生已经告诉她，她的时间不多了。
She was getting hospice care at home.
她正在家里接受临终关怀。
And so on Monday and Tuesday, she had a series of Zoom meetings, notes calls, calls with writers, calls with executives.
因此，周一和周二，她召开了一系列 Zoom 会议、笔记电话、与作家的电话、与高管的电话。
And she refused to let anybody cancel them, and she refused to let people come and see her when she was booked into these professional meetings, which she attended.
她拒绝让任何人取消会议，当她被预订参加她参加的这些专业会议时，她拒绝让人们来看她。
In fact, the day Margaret died, her mother was flying to LA to see her.
事实上，玛格丽特去世的那天，她的母亲正飞往洛杉矶看望她。
So there was a race for her to get from the airport in time to say goodbye.
因此，她必须争分夺秒地从机场及时赶来告别。
But in the meantime, that same day, Margaret was confirming and insisting that she be part of these Zooms.
但与此同时，就在同一天，玛格丽特确认并坚持让她成为这些 Zoom 的一部分。
She didn't want to cancel any of that.
她不想取消这一切。
So at the very end, her assistant had to lie to her and tell her that the meetings were canceled so that she wouldn't try to kick people out of her room so that she could Zoom about a project.
所以最后，她的助理不得不对她撒谎，告诉她会议被取消了，这样她就不会试图把人们赶出她的房间，这样她就可以Zoom讨论一个项目。
It could have prevented her from saying goodbye to somebody that needed to see her.
这可能会阻止她向需要见她的人说再见。
Ira Glass Susanna was in that situation because just a few days before Margaret died, somebody in Margaret's inner circle confided in her just how bad things were, which Margaret very much did not want her to know.
艾拉·格拉斯·苏珊娜就处于这种情况，因为就在玛格丽特去世前几天，玛格丽特的核心圈子里有人向她吐露事情有多糟糕，而玛格丽特非常不想让她知道这一点。
And Susanna couldn't just rush to see her because she was at a film festival, at Sundance showing a film that she and Margaret had spent five years trying to get made.
苏珊娜不能急着去看她，因为她正在参加一个电影节，在圣丹斯电影节上放映一部她和玛格丽特花了五年时间拍摄的电影。
And Saturday was the premiere.
星期六是首映式。
And so I was engaging with Margaret throughout the weekend.
所以整个周末我都在和玛格丽特交往。
Every time we texted, I wanted to stop this performance that things were fine and just tell her that I knew what was going on and tell her everything I wanted to tell her, even if it was in a text message.
每次我们发短信时，我都想停止这种“一切都很好”的表现，只是告诉她我知道发生了什么事，并告诉她我想告诉她的一切，即使是在短信中。
But I also knew that she had really wanted to engage as though things were normal.
但我也知道她真的很想像平常一样参与其中。
So there's a series of text messages we sent to each other where I'm kind of poking around the idea that I want her to let me know what's really going on, and she's refusing.
因此，我们互相发送了一系列短信，其中我有点想知道我想让她让我知道到底发生了什么，但她拒绝了。
Do you have the text there?
你那里有文字吗？
Susanna Fogel Yeah, I do.
苏珊娜·福格尔 是的，我愿意。
Yeah, can you read them?
是的，你能读懂它们吗？
Susanna Fogel Mm-hmm.
苏珊娜·福格尔 嗯嗯。
So I texted her a few hours after I got this tip from this friend of hers that she was, you know, at the end.
因此，在我从她的一位朋友那里得到消息后几个小时，我给她发了短信，说她，你知道，最后了。
And I said, hey, how are you feeling?
我说，嘿，你感觉怎么样？
She said, today's been good.
她说，今天过得很好。
How's Sundance so far?
圣丹斯到目前为止怎么样？
And I said, fun.
我说，有趣。
I'm nervous.
我很紧张。
A couple of hours later, she texted just before my screening, good luck this afternoon.
几个小时后，她在我放映前发短信说，祝你今天下午好运。
Can't wait to hear.
迫不及待想听。
Three exclamation points.
三个感叹号。
It continues from there.
它从那里继续。
Susanna sends a picture of her outfit.
苏珊娜发送了一张她的服装照片。
Margaret hearts it.
玛格丽特很喜欢它。
Then the film screens.
然后电影放映。
And then she knew the running time of the film, and the second the movie was over, she texted me again.
然后她知道电影的放映时间，电影一结束，她又给我发短信。
How did it go?
进展如何？
Three question marks, three exclamation points.
三个问号，三个感叹号。
Susanna sends pictures and a review.
苏珊娜发送照片和评论。
Her last text to Margaret on Monday, 7:06 PM, is about how she's going to come over as soon as she gets back to LA to gossip and tell her all about Sundance.
她在周一晚上 7:06 给玛格丽特发的最后一条短信是关于她一回到洛杉矶就如何过来八卦并告诉她有关圣丹斯电影节的一切。
This was Susanna laying the groundwork to just show up at Margaret's house Tuesday, whether Margaret liked it or not, and get more real.
这是苏珊娜为周二出现在玛格丽特家打下的基础，不管玛格丽特喜欢与否，变得更加真实。
Margaret never answered that text.
玛格丽特从未回复该短信。
And Susanna's found herself thinking a lot about what she wanted to say to her, ideally in person, or even in some last text that she could have sent last weekend when she still had the chance.
苏珊娜发现自己想了很多想对她说的话，最好是当面说，甚至是在她上周末还有机会的时候发的最后一条短信。
I think what's interesting is when I think about what I would have said in a final text message to her, I probably would have said, I don't even have words.
我认为有趣的是，当我想到我会在给她的最后一条短信中说的话时，我可能会说，我什至没有言语。
I don't think I would have been able to compose a text message that felt like it covered the depth of my love for her.
我不认为我能够写出一条短信来表达我对她的爱的深度。
Or the words would have failed, or they wouldn't have been enough or something.
或者这些话可能会失败，或者它们还不够，或者其他什么。
I would have talked about how words were inadequate, which she would have been very disappointed in because I'm a writer, and you know, she was representing me.
我会谈论言语是如何不足的，她会对此感到非常失望，因为我是一名作家，而你知道，她代表了我。
But you know.
但你知道。
Yeah.
是的。
She would have said, come on, you can do it.
她会说，来吧，你能行的。
Don't be a quitter.
不要成为一个放弃者。
Words can be so puny sometimes in the face of feelings.
有时候，言语在感情面前显得那么渺小。
Yeah.
是的。
If I was in person, I probably would have just ended up holding her hand.
如果是我本人，我可能会握住她的手。
I have to say, I have a lot of sympathy for her friend Margaret's position on all this.
我不得不说，我非常同情她的朋友玛格丽特在这一切上的立场。
I totally understand that feeling of, what good is talking about this going to do.
我完全理解这种感觉，谈论这件事有什么好处。
What can words possibly do here against the enormity of this awfulness?
面对这种可怕的事情，言语能起到什么作用呢？
Or on the flip side, how can words possibly capture all I feel for you?
或者反过来说，言语怎么可能表达出我对你的全部感情呢？
Today on our program, people who find themselves in situations where the words really do not seem to capture what's happening.
今天在我们的节目中，人们发现自己处于言语似乎无法捕捉正在发生的情况的情况。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One: The Speaking Part Ira Glass Act 1, The Speaking Part.
第一幕：口语部分 艾拉·格拉斯 第一幕，口语部分。
So this is a story of a woman who ran out of words, just stopped talking or close to it.
所以这是一个关于一个女人的故事，她说不出话来，只是停止说话或接近它。
It took 72 days, exactly 72 days.
花了72天，整整72天。
Chana Joffe-Walt tells what happened.
查娜·乔夫-沃尔特讲述了发生的事情。
The first time I talked to Youmna, it was a couple of months ago.
我第一次和 Youmna 谈话是在几个月前。
And we mostly talked about her four kids, the questions they were asking her, and how she was answering those questions.
我们主要谈论她的四个孩子，他们问她的问题，以及她如何回答这些问题。
There was her youngest, Joury, Juju, who had become obsessed with talking about her cat.
她最小的孩子乔里·朱朱（Joury Juju）痴迷于谈论她的猫。
The family left the cat when they fled their home in Gaza City on October 13, six days after Hamas attacked Israel.
10 月 13 日，即哈马斯袭击以色列六天后，这家人逃离加沙城的家时留下了这只猫。
Juju wanted to know, was the cat getting food?
Juju 想知道，猫有食物吗？
Yes, Youmna said.
是的，尤姆纳说。
The neighbors were feeding her.
邻居们正在给她喂饭。
There was Mohammed, 11 years old, who, two weeks into the war, had begun pulling at his lips and biting into them until the skin tore.
穆罕默德，11 岁，战争爆发两周后，他开始拉扯嘴唇，咬住嘴唇，直到皮肤撕裂。
Mohammed wanted to know if his school was still there.
穆罕默德想知道他的学校是否还在。
Yes, Youmna said.
是的，尤姆纳说。
Cerine, 8 years old.
瑟琳，8岁。
Every time the family fled, she always wanted to know where they would sleep, and would they be able to sleep together?
每次一家人逃离时，她总是想知道他们会睡在哪里，他们能睡在一起吗？
Yes, Youmna would reassure her.
是的，尤姆纳会让她放心。
We will all sleep right next to each other.
我们都会睡在彼此旁边。
The trickiest was Aline, Youmna's oldest, her 12-year-old.
最棘手的是尤姆娜 (Youmna) 中最大的孩子艾琳 (Aline)，她 12 岁。
Aline is always worried about her friends, especially that she can't reach them.
艾琳总是担心她的朋友们，尤其是她无法联系到他们。
She tells me sometimes, I don't want to call them because when they don't answer, it means that maybe they're not OK.
她有时告诉我，我不想给他们打电话，因为当他们不接听时，就意味着他们可能不太好。
Maybe something bad has happened to them.
也许他们发生了一些不好的事情。
And I think that this is the most idea that scares her.
我认为这是最让她害怕的想法。
And that's why she doesn't even try to most of the time.
这就是为什么她大多数时候都没有尝试。
I talked to Aline a little bit about this, too.
我也和艾琳谈过这个问题。
Here, let me give you Aline.
在这里，让我给你艾琳。
Chana Joffe-Walt Thank you.
查纳·乔夫-沃尔特 谢谢。
Aline told me she has five close friends.
艾琳告诉我她有五个亲密的朋友。
They're a crew.
他们是一个船员。
I called them, but they don't have signals.
我给他们打电话，但他们没有信号。
So you can't keep in touch.
所以你们无法保持联系。
Aline So I don't know anything about them.
艾琳 所以我对他们一无所知。
So I have a friend.
所以我有一个朋友。
She has a little brother.
她有一个小弟弟。
He's two month, years-- he's two months just.
他两个月了，几年了——他才两个月。
So he's so baby.
所以他真是个宝贝。
They are now staying in a car, in their car.
他们现在住在车里，住在他们的车里。
I told her, so you don't have any cousins?
我告诉她，所以你没有表兄弟姐妹吗？
You don't have any aunts in Rafah?
你在拉法没有阿姨吗？
You should go to them.
你应该去找他们。
So she told me, yes, I have, but the car does not have fuel, so I can't go.
于是她告诉我，是的，我有，但是车没有燃料，所以我不能去。
But after that, she didn't call me or send me any messages or answer me to my messages.
但在那之后，她没有给我打电话，也没有给我发任何消息，也没有回复我的信息。
So I can't do anything now.
所以我现在什么也做不了。
So she told me, maybe something bad has happened to her.
所以她告诉我，也许她发生了一些不好的事情。
What if something bad has happened to her?
万一她出了什么不好的事怎么办？
I told her we would have heard.
我告诉她我们会听到的。
If something bad has happened to her, we would have heard.
如果她发生了什么不好的事情，我们会听到的。
I would have known.
我早就知道了。
They seemed like the right words to say, even if Youmna had no idea if they were true.
这些话似乎说得对，尽管尤姆纳不知道这些话是否属实。
With Aline, with all her kids, Youmna's strategy was to sell them on her own certainty, even if there was no reliable information on who was dead or who was alive.
对于艾琳，以及她所有的孩子，尤姆娜的策略是根据自己的确定性将他们出售，即使没有关于谁死谁活着的可靠信息。
She wanted them to believe there was, and she had it.
她希望他们相信有，而且她也有。
Youmna would summon all the authority she had as a mom who knows things.
尤姆娜会发挥她作为一位了解事情的母亲所拥有的所有权威。
And Youmna is a journalist.
尤姆纳是一名记者。
She reports for Al Jazeera English in Gaza.
她为加沙半岛电视台英语报道。
So she hoped Aline would look at her, someone who has spent almost a decade tracking down records and information, and believe that of course Youmna would know if her best friend was dead.
所以她希望艾琳能看着她，一个花了近十年时间追踪记录和信息的人，并相信尤姆娜当然会知道她最好的朋友是否死了。
I tell her, like we know by the families.
我告诉她，就像我们从家人那里知道的那样。
When family is killed at bombardment, the names of those people killed are all out in a report.
当家人在轰炸中丧生时，遇难者的名字都会出现在一份报告中。
And I would have seen the names.
我会看到这些名字。
I would have told you about it.
我本来会告诉你这件事的。
Yeah.
是的。
Youmna No, I wouldn't.
Youmna 不，我不会。
Definitely not.
绝对不是。
I mean, considering the problem is that the area that Dima, her best friend, was in, that's Hamad City.
我的意思是，考虑到问题是她最好的朋友迪玛所在的地区，那就是哈马德城。
There were so many casualties, so many people killed there, so many people injured.
伤亡人数太多了，死了那么多人，受伤了那么多人。
And honestly, I don't know what else to tell her.
老实说，我不知道还能告诉她什么。
I don't want her-- I don't want her to have that thought.
我不想让她——我不想让她有这样的想法。
Aline breaks down a lot.
艾琳经常崩溃。
She's the eldest, and she understands more.
她是老大，懂事的多。
But even the younger kids were understanding more than Youmna wanted them to as the war went on.
但随着战争的继续，即使是年幼的孩子也比尤姆纳希望他们理解的要多。
They were starting to worry about everything that was happening in the parts of their world they could no longer see.
他们开始担心他们无法再看到的世界中发生的一切。
What was still standing, their school, their cat, their friends.
那些仍然矗立着的东西，他们的学校，他们的猫，他们的朋友。
And Youmna just kept trying to convince them, it's all still there.
Youmna 一直试图说服他们，一切都还在那里。
I don't think they really believed me, because sometimes they tell me, how would you know?
我不认为他们真的相信我，因为有时他们告诉我，你怎么知道？
And Mohammed had a friend from a Saa family, and so he heard that the Saa family was killed in one of the airstrikes.
穆罕默德有一个萨阿家族的朋友，所以他听说萨阿家族在一次空袭中丧生。
And he came and he asked me, do you think that Yamin was killed too with his family, or did he survive?
他来了，他问我，你认为亚民和他的家人也被杀了，还是他活了下来？
And I said, it's probably not Yamin's family.
我说，这可能不是亚敏的家人。
It's probably another family with the same name.
这可能是另一个同名的家庭。
He's probably somewhere safe.
他可能在安全的地方。
You don't have to worry about it.
你不必担心它。
So I try to, but-- and then he just stopped asking.
所以我试着这么做，但是——然后他就不再问了。
He doesn't ask me about anything anymore.
他不再问我任何事情了。
And neither does Aline.
艾琳也没有。
Oh, wow.
哦，哇。
Youmna I think they just-- it's either they're not convinced by the answers, or they just feel that they don't want to know.
我认为他们只是——要么他们不相信答案，要么他们只是觉得他们不想知道。
Chana Joffe-Walt The kids' fear of what might happen to people they couldn't see began to turn toward the family and apply to Youmna and her husband too.
查纳·乔夫-沃尔特 (Chana Joffe-Walt) 孩子们对看不见的人可能发生的事情的恐惧开始转向家人，也适用于尤姆纳和她的丈夫。
When Youmna went out reporting, her kids begged her to stay home, and not just home, but in the same room right next to them.
当尤姆娜出去报道时，她的孩子们恳求她呆在家里，不仅是待在家里，而且还待在他们旁边的同一个房间里。
They wanted all six family members together.
他们希望所有六个家庭成员都在一起。
They didn't want to let anyone out of sight.
他们不想让任何人离开他们的视线。
Youmna told me they'd repeatedly ask a question I'd heard other parents from Gaza talk about too.
尤姆纳告诉我，他们会反复问一个我也听其他加沙家长谈论过的问题。
Her kids would ask her, if we die, will we die together?
她的孩子们会问她，如果我们死了，我们会一起死吗？
At first, a week, 10 days into the war, Youmna would wave them off.
起初，在战争开始一周十天后，尤姆纳会挥手让他们离开。
You're not going to die.
你不会死的。
Then after a month passed, her answer changed to, you're always safe if you're in mommy's arms.
一个月过去了，她的回答变成了，在妈妈怀里就永远安全。
Until finally, after more than 50 days of war, Youmna landed on this answer, yes, we will all six die together.
直到最后，经过50多天的战争，尤姆纳得出了这个答案：是的，我们六个人会一起死去。
As soon as she said it, she could see her kids were relieved.
话一出口，她就看到孩子们都松了口气。
It was the one thing she could say that she could tell was actually comforting to them.
这是她能说的唯一一件事，她能感觉到这实际上让他们感到安慰。
That's where things were for Youmna and her family.
这就是 Youmna 和她的家人的生活所在。
61 days into the war, they'd relocated five times.
战争开始 61 天后，他们已经搬迁五次。
The kids were asking harder questions, except some questions which they'd stopped asking altogether.
孩子们提出了更难的问题，除了一些他们完全不再问的问题。
Words were more and more difficult, but not yet impossible.
言语变得越来越困难，但还不是不可能。
Then there was a shift.
然后发生了转变。
Youmna and her husband got word that she had permission to leave Gaza with the kids, but not with her husband.
尤姆纳和她的丈夫得到消息称，她获准与孩子们一起离开加沙，但不能与她的丈夫一起离开。
Youmna's parents and siblings are in Egypt.
尤姆纳的父母和兄弟姐妹都在埃及。
She has Egyptian citizenship.
她拥有埃及公民身份。
The kids do too, but her husband does not, even though they've been married 15 years.
孩子们也这样做，但她的丈夫却不这样做，尽管他们已经结婚 15 年了。
Immediately when they got this news, Youmna's husband, Selah, started lobbying her.
当他们得知这个消息后，Youmna 的丈夫 Selah 立即开始游说她。
He was telling me, you might have to take the kids out to safety.
他告诉我，你可能必须带孩子们到安全的地方。
You have to take them.
你必须接受它们。
This is the fifth time that we have evacuated.
这是我们第五次撤离。
He told me, just take the kids and leave.
他告诉我，带上孩子就走吧。
Youmna told him no. She couldn't bear it.
尤姆纳告诉他不。她无法忍受。
No, he said.
不，他说。
You have to go.
你必须走了。
You have to take the kids out.
你得带孩子出去。
It was late.
已经很晚了。
They thought they were talking quietly, but Aline, their 12-year-old, was always listening.
他们以为自己正在轻声交谈，但他们 12 岁的孩子艾琳却一直在听。
Yes, she actually heard her dad telling me to just take the kids and to save them.
是的，她确实听到她爸爸告诉我带孩子们去救他们。
And she was-- she just screamed, Dad, what are you saying?
她只是尖叫，爸爸，你在说什么？
We're not going anywhere without you, and we're not going to leave you here.
没有你，我们哪儿也去不了，我们也不会把你留在这里。
We're not going to leave without you.
我们不会离开你。
What if something happens to you?
如果你出了什么事怎么办？
And he even told her, Aline, this is our call.
他甚至告诉她，艾琳，这是我们的决定。
We decide.
我们决定。
We're your parents.
我们是你的父母。
And she was like, no, you don't get to decide this.
她说，不，你不能决定这件事。
We are not going to leave you.
我们不会离开你。
No one is going to leave you.
没有人会离开你。
They let it alone until morning.
他们就这样一直到早上。
They had a week to decide.
他们有一周的时间来做决定。
Their names would be on a list at the border for that week, and then the window would close.
他们的名字将出现在该周边境的名单上，然后窗口就会关闭。
When I talked to Youmna, it was the middle of that week.
当我和 Youmna 交谈时，正是那周中旬。
At night, they debated, Youmna and Selah whispering after the kids went to sleep.
晚上，他们争论，尤姆纳和塞拉在孩子们入睡后窃窃私语。
And during the day, Youmna would quietly turn everything over in her head.
白天，尤姆娜会在脑子里静静地翻阅一切。
Should she take the kids and leave him?
她应该带着孩子离开他吗？
Could she?
她可以吗？
For me and my husband, we fell in love, and we got married.
对于我和我的丈夫来说，我们坠入爱河，然后结婚了。
It wasn't just a regular marriage or anything.
这不仅仅是一场普通的婚姻或其他什么。
We're from two different nationalities and two different worlds.
我们来自两个不同的国籍，两个不同的世界。
And we had this really nice relationship, and we made a nice family, and we traveled here and there.
我们的关系非常好，我们组成了一个美好的家庭，我们到处旅行。
And he's just-- he's a part of me.
他只是——他是我的一部分。
He's a part of my heart.
他是我心的一部分。
I can't just leave him.
我不能就这么离开他。
If I would leave him, I'd be ripping a part of my heart apart.
如果我离开他，我的心就会被撕裂。
I'm not going to lie to you and tell you, no, I didn't think like that.
我不会对你撒谎并告诉你，不，我不是那样想的。
Of course I did.
我当然这么做了。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Youmna I did.
我做到了。
But I felt the guilt to even think like that because he's part of us.
但即使这样想我也感到内疚，因为他是我们的一部分。
He's a part of me.
他是我的一部分。
They talked about it for a week, and then their time was up.
他们讨论了一周，然后时间就到了。
Youmna told me she had made a decision.
尤姆娜告诉我她已经做出了决定。
They were staying.
他们留下来了。
All six of them stick together.
六个人都粘在一起了。
That was it.
就是这样。
I didn't hear from Youmna for a while.
我有一段时间没有收到 Youmna 的消息了。
There were communication blackouts in Gaza, no electricity.
加沙通讯中断，没有电力。
But I could see she was out reporting, interviewing kids in camps, who told her their stomachs ached from hunger, talking to women living in tents who are trying to manage their periods without menstrual supplies.
但我可以看到她正在出去报道，采访营地里的孩子们，他们告诉她他们的胃因饥饿而疼痛，与住在帐篷里的妇女交谈，她们试图在没有月经用品的情况下管理她们的月经。
And then on December 21, I was surprised to see a post from Youmna saying she was in Egypt.
然后在 12 月 21 日，我惊讶地看到 Youmna 发的帖子说她在埃及。
I'm really sorry it took me a lot of time to answer you, but it has been really a very difficult time.
我真的很抱歉花了很长时间才回答你，但这确实是一段非常困难的时期。
She said, in the middle of the month, her kids had started going hungry.
她说，到了月中，她的孩子们开始挨饿了。
Juju, her youngest, had stopped asking for food altogether because she knew there wasn't any.
她最小的孩子朱朱已经完全不再要食物了，因为她知道根本没有食物。
The phones were in and out.
电话进来又出去。
There was almost no internet.
几乎没有互联网。
They had very little contact with the outside world.
他们与外界的接触很少。
And then one night, Youmna got a call.
一天晚上，尤姆纳接到一个电话。
9:00 PM.
晚上 9:00。
On Wednesday, 9:00 PM, my dad found a way, and he connected with me.
星期三晚上 9:00，我爸爸找到了一个办法，他联系了我。
And he told me that you are-- your names are all on a list, and you need to travel tomorrow morning.
他告诉我，你们的名字都在名单上，你们明天早上需要出发。
You need to leave because your names are on a list.
你需要离开，因为你的名字在名单上。
Her father had gotten them back on the list of people who had permission to leave Gaza and enter Egypt.
她的父亲已将他们重新列入有权离开加沙并进入埃及的人员名单上。
They had another short window of time to leave.
他们还有很短的时间离开。
But her husband, Selah, was still not on the list.
但她的丈夫塞拉仍然不在名单上。
Selah immediately pushed, harder than he had the last time.
塞拉立即用力推，比上次更用力。
He said, it's a message from God that you need to leave with the kids.
他说，这是来自上帝的信息，你需要和孩子们一起离开。
This is the right choice now.
现在这是正确的选择。
You need to save yourself now.
你现在需要拯救自己。
The three other families Youmna and Selah were living with, they joined in too.
尤姆纳和塞拉所居住的另外三个家庭也加入了进来。
Youmna, you need to go.
尤姆娜，你该走了。
Just go.
走吧。
We're all waiting for that chance.
我们都在等待这个机会。
We're waiting to be able to travel.
我们正在等待能够旅行。
You're not doing anything wrong.
你没有做错任何事。
The wrong thing is that you would stay here.
错误的是你会留在这里。
And her parents from Egypt.
她的父母来自埃及。
Youmna Youmna, you need to think about the kids.
Youmna Youmna，你需要考虑孩子们。
My mom, she told me, the kids, they're a gift from God, and you need to protect that gift.
我妈妈告诉我，孩子们是上帝的礼物，你需要保护这份礼物。
What actually changed things for Youmna was when her dad called back and said, take Selah with you to the border.
真正改变 Youmna 生活的是当她爸爸回电话说，带 Selah 一起去边境吧。
I've spoken with them.
我和他们谈过。
They will let him through, even without an Egyptian passport.
即使没有埃及护照，他们也会让他通过。
They've given me their word.
他们已经向我做出了承诺。
Go.
去。
Youmna wasn't sure if there really was a promise or if everyone just wanted her to do as they said.
尤姆娜不确定这是否真的是一个承诺，还是每个人都只是希望她按照他们说的去做。
But she started packing.
但她开始收拾行李。
So we went to the border.
于是我们就到了边境。
The Palestinian side was telling my husband that his name is not on the list and that he can't cross with us.
巴勒斯坦方面告诉我丈夫，他的名字不在名单上，他不能与我们一起过境。
So I told them, we're not going to cross if you don't let him cross, and he's a father.
所以我告诉他们，如果你不让他过去，我们就不会过去，而且他是一个父亲。
What about these children?
这些孩子怎么办？
They need their father.
他们需要他们的父亲。
I need my husband with us.
我需要我的丈夫和我们在一起。
They told her, you'll just get to the Egyptian side, and they'll send him back.
他们告诉她，你只要到埃及那边，他们就会把他送回来。
So let them send him back, Youmna said.
所以让他们送他回去吧，尤姆纳说。
Don't you stop us.
你别阻止我们。
So the Palestinian guards let her family cross to the Egyptian side, where they sat and waited for eight hours.
于是，巴勒斯坦警卫让她的家人越过埃及一侧，他们在那里坐了八个小时。
Her husband, Selah, sat right next to her, whispering into her ear nonstop.
她的丈夫塞拉坐在她旁边，不停地在她耳边低语。
Youmna, are you listening to me?
尤姆娜，你在听我说话吗？
Youmna, you have to go without me.
Youmna，你必须离开我。
And he was literally the eight hours just telling me that I need to leave.
他实际上是在八个小时内告诉我我需要离开。
I can't go back with him.
我不能和他一起回去。
I need to save our kids' lives.
我需要拯救我们孩子的生命。
He reminded me how much we have struggled with water, how much we struggle with food.
他提醒我我们在水和食物方面经历了多少挣扎。
What are you going to do if we end up moving in tents?
如果我们最终搬进帐篷你会怎么做？
How are we going to keep them warm?
我们怎样才能让他们保持温暖呢？
How are we going to keep them safe with no toilets, with no water?
没有厕所、没有水，我们如何保证他们的安全？
He told me, I'm going to be OK.
他告诉我，我会没事的。
I'm one person.
我是一个人。
If I don't eat, it's OK.
如果我不吃的话，也没关系。
If I don't find enough water, it's fine.
如果我找不到足够的水，那也没关系。
I'm an adult.
我是成年人了。
How were you feeling during that time, Youmna, when you--
Youmna，那段时间你感觉如何，当你——
I felt like it was really-- it was really surprising.
我觉得这真的非常令人惊讶。
I felt deeply in my heart that he's going to cross with us.
我心里深深地感觉到，他要和我们一起穿越了。
It's going to be OK.
一切都会好起来的。
I just told him, don't worry, don't worry.
我只是告诉他，别担心，别担心。
I know it's going to be OK.
我知道一切都会好起来的。
And he was like, OK, OK.
他说，好吧，好吧。
Inshallah, it's going to be OK, but are you focusing with me?
安拉保佑，一切都会好起来的，但是你专注于我吗？
You need to go.
你需要走了。
Are you listening to what I'm saying?
你在听我说的话吗？
You need to go.
你需要走了。
He was telling me that this is the only choice that we have for us to continue saving their lives.
他告诉我，这是我们继续拯救他们生命的唯一选择。
So eight hours later, they actually just called our names and gave us our passports, all of us, with no problems at all.
八小时后，他们实际上只是叫了我们的名字，并给了我们所有人护照，没有任何问题。
They passed through, made it to Egypt, all of them.
他们所有人都穿越了埃及，到达了埃及。
Youmna So when we just entered my dad's home in Egypt, my husband, he got into the room, and he broke down, and he cried.
Youmna 所以，当我们刚进入我父亲在埃及的家时，我的丈夫，他走进房间，他崩溃了，他哭了。
And he cried so hard, like he cried his heart off.
他哭得很厉害，就像哭得心都碎了一样。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Youmna And I just looked at him, and I closed the door.
Youmna 我只是看着他，然后关上了门。
I just told him, you know what, I think you should cry.
我只是告诉他，你知道吗，我认为你应该哭。
You need to cry.
你需要哭。
Never.
绝不。
Never seen him cry like that.
从来没见过他哭成这样。
I was really hoping that I could do the same, but I just wish I could.
我真的希望我能做同样的事情，但我只是希望我能做到。
But I just felt like I just-- I just want to be quiet.
但我只是觉得我只是——我只是想保持安静。
When she got online, Youmna saw that Al Jazeera was reporting her cameraman, Samer Abu Daqqa, had just been killed by an Israeli drone strike.
当尤姆纳上网时，她看到半岛电视台正在报道她的摄影师萨米尔·阿布·达卡刚刚在以色列无人机袭击中丧生。
She said nothing and didn't cry.
她什么也没说，也没有哭。
She saw messages from the families they'd been living with in Rafah.
她看到了与他们一起住在拉法的家庭发来的信息。
They told her, right after she left, an airstrike had landed so close to the house that all the windows shattered.
他们告诉她，就在她离开后，一场空袭袭击了距离房子如此之近的地方，所有的窗户都被震碎了。
Meanwhile, in her parents' home, all around her, everyone was busy, her kids, her husband.
与此同时，在她父母的家里，她周围的每个人都在忙碌，她的孩子，她的丈夫。
They were re-entering the world, reacting to everything, to the food and beds and lights.
他们重新进入这个世界，对一切、食物、床和灯光做出反应。
My dad was telling me Juju, my five-year-old, Juju, come on let's take a shower.
我爸爸告诉我 Juju，我五岁的孩子 Juju，来吧，我们去洗个澡。
And she told him, there's no water to shower.
她告诉他，没有水可以洗澡。
And he was like, no, we have water here.
他说，不，我们这里有水。
And he told her to come look.
他让她过来看看。
He took her to the bathroom, and he opened the tap.
他带她去了卫生间，打开了水龙头。
And water came out, and she was very excited.
水就出来了，她很兴奋。
She was like, oh, they have water.
她说，哦，他们有水。
And he told her, we have hot water too.
他告诉她，我们也有热水。
And she was like, Mommy, Mommy, they have water in the shower.
她说，妈妈，妈妈，他们的淋浴间有水。
They have water in the tap.
他们的水龙头里有水。
And my dad, he like-- he cried.
我的父亲，他喜欢——他哭了。
He hugged her, and he cried.
他拥抱了她，哭了。
He told her, I'm sorry.
他告诉她，对不起。
I'm so sorry that you lived all this.
我很遗憾你经历了这一切。
And every single detail went on like that.
每一个细节都是这样进行的。
Oh, my God, you have this.
哦，天哪，你有这个。
Oh, my God, you have that.
哦，天哪，你有这个。
Oh, my God, I miss this so much.
哦，天哪，我非常想念这个。
Even the simple things and food and drink and so on.
即使是简单的事情和食物和饮料等等。
When Juju was like, oh, my God, water, and she was excited, and your dad started crying, how did she respond to seeing her grandfather cry?
当 Juju 说，哦，天哪，水，她很兴奋，而你爸爸开始哭，她看到祖父哭时有什么反应？
Well, she cried too.
嗯，她也哭了。
He was hugging her, and she cried too.
他抱着她，她也哭了。
And then he cried so hard.
然后他哭得很厉害。
I felt like it was easy for everyone to actually cry and bring out their emotions, and even the kids and everything.
我觉得每个人都很容易流泪并表达自己的情绪，甚至包括孩子们和其他一切。
But I wasn't even able to bring that out.
但我什至没能把它说出来。
Youmna's family was safe.
尤姆纳的家人很安全。
She was safe.
她很安全。
She was suddenly one of very few people who had experienced the war and was now about to start living on the other side of it, the after.
她突然成为极少数经历过战争的人之一，现在即将开始生活在战争的另一边，也就是战后。
It was 72 days into the war, and that day, Youmna stopped speaking.
战争已经进行了 72 天，那天，尤姆纳不再说话了。
Aside from the bare minimum basic instructions to her kids, yes, no, Youmna stopped saying anything at all.
除了对孩子们的最低限度的基本指示（是的，不）之外，尤姆娜什么也没说。
It went on like that for a week, her first week in Egypt.
这样的情况持续了一个星期，这是她到埃及的第一周。
When we talked, this conversation, it was two weeks after she'd arrived.
当我们谈话时，这次谈话是在她到达两周后。
No, I wasn't talking.
不，我没有说话。
Literally, I was not speaking, not even to my mom, not to my dad.
从字面上看，我没有说话，甚至没有对我的妈妈，也没有对我的爸爸。
I just felt like I can't just-- I can't talk.
我只是觉得我不能——我不能说话。
I have nothing to say.
我无话可说。
Wow.
哇。
Youmna I don't know.
尤姆娜我不知道。
The only thing that I felt is like I have this very strong, very big, heavy concrete sheet over my chest that's just blocking everything.
我唯一感觉到的是我的胸口上有一块非常坚固、非常大、很重的混凝土板，它挡住了一切。
It felt like I could hardly breathe.
感觉就像我几乎无法呼吸。
A lot of people from my family and my work, everywhere, everyone was telling me that I need to see a therapist, that I need to start therapy.
来自我的家人和工作单位的很多人，无论在哪里，每个人都告诉我，我需要去看治疗师，我需要开始治疗。
And actually, my organization was really pushing me towards it, that they even got me someone.
事实上，我的组织确实在推动我朝这个方向努力，他们甚至为我找到了一个人。
But I literally just opened the laptop, and I slammed it back because he just kept on asking me questions, like, how do you feel, what do you want to say.
但我真的只是打开了笔记本电脑，然后我就把它关了回去，因为他一直在问我问题，比如，你感觉如何，你想说什么。
I didn't have the ability to bring out words from my mouth.
我没有能力从嘴里说出话来。
Because words feel-- they feel wrong when you're like--
因为言语感觉——当你这样的时候，它们感觉不对——
Because words feel very, very simple and very light.
因为文字感觉非常非常简单、非常轻松。
They're not describable enough to what I feel, to the thoughts that I have in my head.
它们不足以描述我的感受和我头脑中的想法。
There are things until now that I can't speak to anyone about.
有些事情直到现在我还不能和任何人说。
Even I don't allow myself to think of, because if I do think about them, I won't be able to be normal.
甚至连我自己都不允许自己去想，因为如果我真的去想它们，我就无法正常了。
I've seen kids in pieces.
我见过孩子们被撕成碎片。
I've seen that.
我见过那个。
I've seen it with my own eyes.
我亲眼所见。
I don't want to express these things because if I do let them out, I express them.
我不想表达这些东西，因为如果我把它们说出来，我就会表达它们。
Then I start dealing with their consequences.
然后我开始处理他们的后果。
Chana Joffe-Walt What broke the logjam for Youmna to start speaking was an invitation to lunch.
查纳·乔菲-沃尔特 (Chana Joffe-Walt) 打破僵局，让尤姆纳开始发言的是午餐邀请。
A week after they'd arrived in Egypt, she and her husband visited a family of Palestinians they knew from Gaza, who are now in Egypt.
抵达埃及一周后，她和丈夫拜访了他们在加沙认识的一个巴勒斯坦人家庭，他们现在在埃及。
They all sat, ate food, and she talked.
他们都坐下来，吃东西，她说话。
They talked about neighborhoods, places they shared in common, people they knew, and flour, what it was like over the last many weeks to try to find flour.
他们谈论社区、共同的地方、认识的人以及面粉，以及过去几周寻找面粉的感受。
They didn't talk about the most brutal or scary things they'd witnessed.
他们没有谈论他们所目睹的最残酷或最可怕的事情。
They talked about the world they'd shared together in Gaza.
他们谈论了他们在加沙共同分享的世界。
That's what did it.
就是这么做的。
And when Youmna got back to her parents' house, she kept talking.
当尤姆娜回到父母家时，她一直在说话。
And she tried to share that world with her family, to tell them what it had been like in Gaza, what she'd seen.
她试图与家人分享这个世界，告诉他们加沙的情况和她所看到的。
Once I start speaking about some details, these details, they can't stand the picture of it.
一旦我开始讲一些细节，这些细节，他们就无法忍受它的画面。
They can't stand the fact that we were too thirsty, and there was no water.
他们无法忍受我们太渴了，而且没有水。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Youmna Or we were very hungry, and there was no food.
Youmna 或者我们很饿，但没有食物。
We weren't able to get food or to find food.
我们无法获得食物或找到食物。
So they would interrupt you, and they would be like, oh, my God.
所以他们会打断你，他们会说，哦，天啊。
Oh, my God.
我的天啊。
OK, this has ended.
好了，这件事就结束了。
This has gone.
这已经过去了。
And then they would even-- they would even cry to that story.
然后他们甚至会因为这个故事而哭泣。
Right?
正确的？
And you just feel like you haven't even-- you haven't even said anything about all this.
你只是觉得你甚至没有——你甚至没有对这一切说过任何话。
Youmna was speaking, but she could never get anywhere.
尤姆娜在说话，但她却无处可去。
I talked to Youmna one more time after this, mid-January.
此后，一月中旬，我再次与 Youmna 进行了交谈。
And she told me the day before, she had gone to therapy in person.
她前一天告诉我，她亲自去接受了治疗。
And apparently, she talked the entire time.
显然，她一直在说话。
It was just a stream of a million thoughts and feelings in no particular order.
这只是一百万个想法和感受的溪流，没有特定的顺序。
And as she talked, she noticed there was one particular feeling she kept circling back to.
当她说话时，她注意到有一种特殊的感觉她不断地回想起。
I told him I have a lot of rage inside.
我告诉他我内心充满愤怒。
I just feel angry.
我只是感到愤怒。
Every time it rains, I'm angry.
每次下雨我就生气。
My friends are living in tents in this cold.
这么冷，我的朋友们都住在帐篷里。
These little kids now in tents, they're getting wet.
这些小孩子现在在帐篷里，他们都被淋湿了。
Their tents are sinking in the mud.
他们的帐篷已经陷进泥里了。
People shopping in the market in Egypt made Youmna mad, people going to work, her family.
在埃及市场购物的人们、去上班的人们以及她的家人都让尤姆娜生气。
I told my sister once, she was telling me that I-- this happened in New Year's Eve.
我告诉过我姐姐一次，她告诉我，这件事发生在除夕夜。
She told me, I want to go out and celebrate New Year's Eve.
她告诉我，我想出去庆祝除夕夜。
You want to come with me?
你想跟我一起去吗？
And I just snapped.
我刚刚爆发了。
I told her, you're going to celebrate New Year's Eve?
我告诉她，你要过年吗？
People are being killed.
人们正在被杀害。
How can you say that?
你怎么能这么说呢？
And I got really angry.
我真的很生气。
And she was like, oh, I'm joking.
她说，哦，我在开玩笑。
I'm not going anywhere.
我哪儿也不去。
I'm joking, dear.
我在开玩笑，亲爱的。
It's OK.
没关系。
And I felt for a second like-- I'm not normally that fast-tempered or bad-tempered person.
我突然觉得——我通常不是那种脾气暴躁或脾气暴躁的人。
But I just felt like, what the hell?
但我只是觉得，到底是什么？
What are you saying?
你在说什么？
So she was like, no, I'm just joking.
所以她说，不，我只是开玩笑。
Was she joking?
她是在开玩笑吗？
Youmna She wasn't joking.
Youmna 她不是在开玩笑。
But the fact that I snapped about it and I felt really hurt about it made her say that she's joking, and she actually didn't go anywhere.
但事实上，我对这件事大发雷霆，而且我对此感到非常受伤，这让她说她是在开玩笑，而她实际上哪儿也没去。
So I don't even know if that's right or wrong.
所以我什至不知道这是对还是错。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Come on.
快点。
I told her, if I was there, would you be celebrating?
我告诉她，如果我在那里，你会庆祝吗？
And that's where it ends for them.
这就是他们的结局。
I'm back.
我回来了。
My family's back.
我的家人回来了。
So for them, this has ended.
所以对于他们来说，这件事已经结束了。
The big suffering has ended.
大苦难结束了。
This has never ended for me, not even a bit.
这对我来说从未结束，甚至一点也没有结束。
Not even a bit.
一点也没有。
I don't feel that it has even ended a bit.
我不觉得它甚至还没有结束。
I spend most of my day watching what's happening in Gaza, watching the news about Gaza, watching videos.
我一天的大部分时间都在关注加沙正在发生的事情，观看有关加沙的新闻，观看视频。
So for me, definitely no. I'm not living like someone who's in Gaza, and I'm not living like someone who's in Egypt now.
所以对我来说，绝对不是。我不像加沙人那样生活，现在也不像埃及人那样生活。
You're like a ghost.
你就像一个幽灵。
Youmna Exactly.
尤姆纳 没错。
I'm constantly thinking about what's happening there.
我不断地思考那里发生的事情。
I don't feel like going anywhere.
我哪儿也不想去。
I don't feel like interacting with anyone.
我不想和任何人交往。
I don't even feel like talking to people, and I just want to spend this time looking at what's happening in Gaza.
我什至不想和人说话，我只想花时间看看加沙正在发生什么。
That's where Youmna is more than 100 days into the war.
这就是尤姆纳 (Youmna) 在战争爆发 100 多天后所处的位置。
When she does talk, most of the time what comes out is rage.
当她说话时，大多数时候发出的都是愤怒。
Ira Glass Chana Joffe-Walt is a producer on our show.
Ira Glass Chana Joffe-Walt 是我们节目的制片人。
Coming up, a mother reads her teenage daughter's diary.
接下来，一位母亲正在阅读她十几岁女儿的日记。
And the things she confronts her about, the thing that upsets, her choice of words.
还有她质问她的事情、让她心烦意乱的事情、她的措辞选择。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
This American Life.
这美国生活。
I'm Ira's Glass.
我是艾拉的玻璃。
Today's show, "The Words to Say It," we have stories today about situations where words fail to get at what is really happening.
今天的节目“用言语表达”，我们今天讲述的故事是关于言语无法表达真正发生的事情的情况。
We have arrived at Act 2 of our show.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。
Act 2, Toska.
第二幕，托斯卡。
When Valerie Kipnis was growing up, there was one word that her mother just did not want to use, even if it seemed like the right word for the situation.
在瓦莱丽·基普尼斯 (Valerie Kipnis) 的成长过程中，有一个词是她母亲不愿意使用的，即使这个词看起来很适合当时的情况。
This went on for years, and it was a real puzzle for Val.
这种情况持续了很多年，这对瓦尔来说是一个真正的难题。
Here she is.
她在这里。
When I was 10 years old, in the fourth grade, my guidance counselor called Mama in to see her.
当我 10 岁的时候，四年级，我的辅导员叫妈妈来看她。
It was urgent, she said.
她说，事情很紧急。
I knew why she had called in Mama.
我知道她为什么叫妈妈来。
It was most definitely because of my nearly failing grade on a geography quiz.
这绝对是因为我的地理测验成绩几乎不及格。
I should have just told my mother.
我应该告诉我妈妈的。
I sat outside the office, ear pressed against the splintered wood door.
我坐在办公室外面，耳朵贴在破碎的木门上。
Has anything happened in the home recently?
最近家里有发生什么事情吗？
No. Perhaps you can remember a triggering event from her past or present.
不。也许你还记得她过去或现在的一个触发事件。
Again, no. Any familial history of mental illness?
再说一次，不。有精神疾病家族史吗？
Of course not.
当然不是。
Is there a history of physical abuse?
有身体虐待史吗？
A snort.
一声鼻息。
Gymnastics.
体操。
Why must you Americans always assume the worst?
为什么你们美国人总是要做最坏的打算？
She does gymnastics.
她做体操。
Well, I apologize for asking.
好吧，我很抱歉问这个问题。
It's just that the state requires that I do.
只是国家要求我这么做而已。
Still, may I suggest some sort of counseling or therapy for her?
不过，我可以建议她接受某种咨询或治疗吗？
It could be helpful.
这可能会有帮助。
It's not particularly normal for 10-year-olds to write this way.
对于10岁的孩子来说这样写并不是特别正常。
Mrs. D is concerned.
D女士很担心。
I am concerned.
我很担心。
We're all concerned.
我们都很担心。
Here's a list of some good counselors in the South Brooklyn area if you decide to seek help, which we, again, recommend.
如果您决定寻求帮助，这里列出了南布鲁克林地区的一些优秀辅导员，我们再次推荐。
Yes, OK.
是的，好的。
Thank you, Mrs. Guidance Counselor.
谢谢您，辅导员女士。
Appreciate your time, Mrs. Counselor, Mama said in her fractured English.
感谢您的宝贵时间，辅导员女士，妈妈用她支离破碎的英语说道。
On the walk home, Mama said nothing.
回家的路上，妈妈什么也没说。
She marched quickly in her burgundy crocodile print pointy-toed leather heels, clutching a paper the counselor had given her.
她穿着酒红色鳄鱼纹尖头皮高跟鞋快步走着，手里抓着辅导员给她的一张纸。
It was not my geography quiz.
这不是我的地理测验。
It was a creative writing assignment about trees for my living environment class.
这是我的生活环境课上关于树木的创意写作作业。
The last run-on sentence was, "I am hollow and dead and alive all at the same time.
最后一句是：“我既空虚又死气沉沉。
How am I any different than a tree stuck in a permanent fall?"
我和一棵永久倒塌的树有什么不同呢？”
As we walk through our apartment building's metal gates, Mama addressed me in Russian.
当我们穿过公寓楼的金属门时，妈妈用俄语对我说话。
Look at me, she said.
看着我，她说。
Are you sad, Lera?
莱拉，你伤心吗？
No, I'm fine, Mama.
不，我很好，妈妈。
Your stupid counselor seems to think you are depressed, she said as she opened the door to our apartment, gesturing with her fingers to make quotation signs in the air around the word "depressed."
你愚蠢的辅导员似乎认为你很沮丧，她一边说，一边打开我们公寓的门，并用手指在“沮丧”一词周围画了引号。
What a stupid American word.
多么愚蠢的美国词啊。
How can a child be depressed?
孩子怎么会抑郁呢？
You have everything.
你拥有一切。
You can be sad for a little, sure, but you are not depressed.
当然，你可能会感到悲伤一点，但你不会感到沮丧。
Bozhe moi, these Amerikantzi are so dramatic.
Bozhe moi，这些 Amerikantzi 太戏剧化了。
My mother yelled out to my father, Marik, do you think children can be depressed?
我妈妈对我爸爸喊道，马里克，你认为孩子会抑郁吗？
In America, my father shouted from the bedroom.
在美国，我父亲在卧室里大喊。
No, they have everything.
不，他们拥有一切。
What do they have to be depressed about?
他们有什么可沮丧的？
Exactly like I said, Mama responded, satisfied.
正如我所说，妈妈满意地回答。
We arrived in the US when I was one.
我一岁的时候我们就到达了美国。
Immigration defined the first decade of my life.
移民定义了我人生的第一个十年。
Cans of tuna for dinner, ESL classes, and small, often crowded living spaces.
晚餐吃金枪鱼罐头、ESL 课程以及狭小且经常拥挤的生活空间。
I didn't speak English fluently until I was eight.
直到八岁我才说一口流利的英语。
By the time I was in the sixth grade, I had shed my thick Russian accent and the last two letters of my first name, Valeriya.
当我上六年级时，我已经摆脱了浓重的俄罗斯口音和我名字的最后两个字母瓦莱丽娅。
I went by Valerie now, Val for short.
我现在叫瓦莱丽（Valerie），简称“瓦尔”（Val）。
My grandmothers deemed me an Amerikanka.
我的祖母认为我是美国人。
That meant I took phone calls with Con Edison, instructed landlords how to fix our oftentimes broken radiators, and negotiated rates for vacation timeshares.
这意味着我要与联合爱迪生公司打电话，指导房东如何修理经常损坏的散热器，并协商度假分时度假的价格。
I could be a moody child, self-serious, sometimes sad in ways that felt too big for my body.
我可能是一个喜怒无常的孩子，自我严肃，有时悲伤的方式感觉对我的身体来说太大了。
Mostly, I kept this to myself.
大多数情况下，我把这件事留给了自己。
But occasionally, my feelings would slip out, like one day when I was 15.
但有时候，我的感情会溜走，比如我15岁时的某一天。
I came home from dance practice to find my diary open on the marble-topped island in our kitchen, my mother crying.
我练习完舞蹈回到家，发现我的日记在厨房的大理石顶岛上打开，我的母亲在哭泣。
Lera, come sit next to me, pozhaluysta.
Lera，过来坐在我旁边，pozhaluysta。
Throwing down my backpack, I settled myself on the stool next to her.
我扔下背包，坐在她旁边的凳子上。
Lera, Lerachka, why do you write this way?
Lera、Lerachka，你们为什么这样写？
Scrawled in seafoam green jelly pen, my handwriting read, "There is no meaning to it all.
我用海泡绿果冻笔潦草地写着这样的字迹：“这一切都没有任何意义。
I would end it, but that would hurt everyone around me." The words now felt foreign.
我会结束它，但这会伤害我周围的每个人。”这些话现在感觉很陌生。
Because it's how I feel.
因为这就是我的感受。
I write what I feel.
我写我的感受。
That's the point of having a diary, Mama.
妈妈，这就是写日记的意义。
It's private.
这是私人的。
Why would you look through it?
你为什么要翻看它？
Why?
为什么？
What are these negative thoughts?
这些负面想法是什么？
Why do you have such feelings?
为什么你会有这样的感受？
Tell me, Lera, please.
请告诉我，莱拉。
Is this coming from the TV you watch?
这是来自你看的电视吗？
I knew your father should not have installed that stupid cable.
我知道你父亲不应该安装那根愚蠢的电缆。
From cable?
来自电缆？
Really, Mama?
真的吗，妈妈？
You think Hannah Montana is making me depressed?
你认为汉娜·蒙塔娜让我感到沮丧吗？
Again, with that word, "depressed." She let the syllables roll thick out of her mouth.
再说一遍，“郁闷”。她从嘴里吐出厚重的音节。
You are not depressed, Lera.
你并不沮丧，莱拉。
You simply cannot be.
你根本不可能。
This feeling is momentary.
这种感觉是短暂的。
You are a teenager.
你是一个青少年。
It is hormones.
这是荷尔蒙。
It happens to everybody.
每个人都会遇到这种情况。
OK, you are sad.
好吧，你很伤心。
Sure.
当然。
But it will be over tomorrow.
不过明天就结束了。
In true teen fashion, I yelled, you don't understand.
以真正的青少年时尚，我喊道，你不明白。
I hate you.
我恨你。
Then ran into my room, slammed the door, buried my face in a pillow, and cried.
然后跑进我的房间，关上门，把脸埋在枕头里哭了。
I wished I could reveal her inadequacy as a mother, to hurt her by really ending it.
我希望我能揭露她作为母亲的不足，通过真正结束它来伤害她。
But even alone in my room, I could hear her voice in the back of my mind, shaming me.
但即使独自一人待在房间里，我也能在脑海中听到她的声音，让我感到羞愧。
We immigrate here for you, and this is what you do to us.
我们为你移民到这里，而这就是你对我们所做的。
You are not depressed.
你没有抑郁。
You're a selfish little girl.
你是一个自私的小女孩。
This was my mother's power.
这就是我母亲的力量。
She could wear me down, even if she was only inside my head.
她可以让我疲惫不堪，即使她只在我的脑海里。
And this was how it went.
事情就是这样的。
I could be sad, but not depressed.
我可能会悲伤，但不会沮丧。
I could be nervous, but not anxious.
我可能会紧张，但不会焦虑。
I could be particular, but not obsessive.
我可以很挑剔，但不能偏执。
Therapy and medication were completely out of the question.
治疗和药物治疗是完全不可能的。
But maybe she was right.
但也许她是对的。
My job as the immigrant daughter was to be grateful, to be content.
作为移民女儿，我的工作就是感恩、满足。
I grew up.
我长大了。
I moved out.
我搬出去了。
And then a month before I turned 25, I stopped being able to take full breaths.
然后，在我 25 岁之前的一个月，我无法进行完整的呼吸。
At first, small, enclosed spaces like elevators made me anxious.
起初，像电梯这样狭小、封闭的空间让我感到焦虑。
Within a few months, I'd stop taking the subway.
几个月之内，我就不再乘坐地铁了。
Then obsessive thoughts kicked in.
然后强迫性的想法就开始了。
I moved apartments, and when I couldn't adjust to my new home, I began to walk the Williamsburg Bridge at night to my old place.
我搬了公寓，当我无法适应新家时，我开始在晚上步行威廉斯堡大桥回到我的老地方。
I still had the keys.
我还拿着钥匙。
I would sit on the floor of the vacant apartment for hours.
我会在空置公寓的地板上坐几个小时。
I did this for a month before I realized that I should perhaps seek help.
我这样做了一个月才意识到我也许应该寻求帮助。
My therapist-- I'll call her Terry-- had pink hair and worked from an office with another therapist's name on the door.
我的治疗师——我称她为特里——有一头粉红色的头发，在一间办公室里工作，门上写着另一位治疗师的名字。
It was kind of confusing, but she was cheap.
这有点令人困惑，但她很便宜。
She certified that I was depressed and anxious with OCD-like tendencies, more O than C, she said.
她说，她证实我患有抑郁症和焦虑症，有类似强迫症的倾向，O 型多于 C 型。
I was sort of proud, to have a word.
我有点自豪，能说一句话。
It felt real.
感觉很真实。
I decided to tell my parents that I was seeing a therapist.
我决定告诉我的父母我正在看治疗师。
I told them one night in the car.
一天晚上我在车上告诉他们。
I thought maybe they would be concerned or ask questions, but it was like they didn't hear me.
我以为他们可能会担心或提出问题，但他们好像没有听到我的声音。
Except I heard my mother mutter in Russian, Amerikanskaya chyzh, meaning American nonsense.
只是我听到我母亲用俄语嘀咕，Americanskaya chyzh，意思是美国废话。
And just like that, my mother's voice was back inside my head.
就这样，妈妈的声音又回到了我的脑海里。
Whenever Terry told me I was depressed, instead of feeling relieved or understood, I wanted to argue.
每当特里告诉我我很沮丧时，我不但没有感到宽慰或理解，反而想争辩。
I wanted to yell.
我想大喊大叫。
Really, depressed?
真的很郁闷吗？
Good one, Terry.
好一个，特里。
Maybe I'm just sad today.
也许我今天只是很难过。
Can't a person be sad?
人就不能悲伤吗？
Stop diagnosing me.
别再给我诊断了
But I didn't actually yell any of this.
但我实际上并没有喊出任何这些。
Instead, I would nod and let her tell me about coping mechanisms, such as yoga and journaling, a healthier diet, vitamin D.
相反，我会点点头，让她告诉我一些应对机制，例如瑜伽和日记、更健康的饮食、维生素 D。
Chekhov once wrote, "If many remedies are prescribed for an illness, you may be certain that the illness has no cure." And whenever Terry would prescribe self-care to deal with my never-ending sadness, I would think about my parents.
契诃夫曾经写道：“如果针对一种疾病开出多种疗法，那么你可能会确信这种疾病无法治愈。”每当特里给我开出自我保健的处方来应对我永无休止的悲伤时，我就会想起我的父母。
I would think about toska.
我会想到托斯卡。
OK, a word about toska.
好的，谈谈托斯卡。
For most Russians of my parents' generation, there was no real word for depression.
对于我父母那一代的大多数俄罗斯人来说，没有真正的抑郁这个词。
The word they did say was toska.
他们所说的词是“toska”。
After I gave up on Terry, I started googling around, hoping to understand why my mom was so uncomfortable with the word "depression." And here's what I learned.
在我放弃特里之后，我开始在谷歌上搜索，希望了解为什么我妈妈对“抑郁”这个词如此不舒服。这就是我学到的东西。
It goes back to the Soviet era.
这要追溯到苏联时代。
During that time, mental illness was stigmatized, seen as a problem that only afflicted capitalist societies, a problem that would disappear under Communist rule.
在那段时期，精神疾病被污名化，被视为只会困扰资本主义社会的问题，在共产主义统治下这个问题将会消失。
The model Soviet citizen, a tovarish, could not be mentally ill.
模范苏联公民，一个托瓦里什，不可能患有精神疾病。
My father once told me there could be no depression in the world we were building because we were striving for this perfection.
我父亲曾经告诉我，我们正在建设的世界不会有抑郁症，因为我们正在努力追求完美。
They did use the word "depresiya," but it felt like a foreign import.
他们确实使用了“depresiya”这个词，但感觉像是外国进口的。
And anyway, it was reserved for those in the highest rung of emotional distress, those who had lost a spouse in war or a child at birth, and not much else.
不管怎样，它是为那些情绪最痛苦的人、那些在战争中失去配偶或在出生时失去孩子的人保留的，仅此而已。
And there was another much more menacing way Soviets talked about mental illness, and that was as a political weapon.
苏联人谈论精神疾病还有另一种更具威胁性的方式，那就是作为一种政治武器。
Political and cultural dissidents were pronounced mentally ill, unsound of mind, and locked up in psychiatric hospitals.
政治和文化持不同政见者被宣布患有精神疾病，精神不健全，并被关进精神病院。
It was a very dark Soviet logic.
这是一种非常黑暗的苏联逻辑。
You couldn't be mentally ill and be a model Soviet citizen.
你不可能在患有精神疾病的情况下成为模范苏联公民。
But at the same time, if you were not a model Soviet citizen, well, the reason for that was, you were mentally ill.
但与此同时，如果你不是模范苏联公民，那么原因是你患有精神疾病。
And if you were just a person who wanted to see a psychiatrist, like people did in the West, well, therapy was essentially banned by Soviet authorities for three generations.
如果你只是一个想看精神科医生的人，就像西方人那样，那么，苏联当局基本上禁止了三代人的治疗。
Every person who received psychiatric treatment, even just a consultation, was registered by the state.
每个接受精神治疗的人，即使只是咨询，都会被国家登记。
After that, it could be difficult to apply for work or keep jobs.
此后，可能很难申请工作或保住工作。
Whatever psychiatry did exist was mostly underground.
无论精神病学是否存在，大部分都是地下的。
Mostly things stayed this way until the 1990s, until the Soviet Union fell apart.
大多数情况下，这种情况一直持续到 20 世纪 90 年代，直到苏联解体。
Now, things are different.
现在，情况不同了。
But for people like my parents who left just a few years after that, mental illness remained taboo.
但对于像我父母这样几年后就离开的人来说，精神疾病仍然是禁忌。
They had different words to talk about these sorts of feelings, words like "toska." "Toska" is a word Russians consider to be, in its essence, Russian.
他们用不同的词来谈论这些感受，比如“toska”。俄罗斯人认为“Toska”这个词本质上是俄语。
It is both of them and for them.
这是他们两人的事，也是为了他们自己的事。
It's one of the things that defines the Russian soul, which is perhaps why it is so untranslatable.
这是定义俄罗斯灵魂的事物之一，这也许就是它如此难以翻译的原因。
I think Vladimir Nabokov captures toska's meaning best.
我认为弗拉基米尔·纳博科夫最能理解托斯卡的意思。
"No single word in English renders all the shades of toska.
“英语中没有一个单词能够表达托斯卡的所有色调。
At its deepest and most painful, it is a sensation of great spiritual anguish, often without any specific cause.
在最深、最痛苦的时候，它是一种巨大的精神痛苦的感觉，通常没有任何特定的原因。
At less morbid levels, it is a dull ache of the soul, a longing with nothing to long for, a sick pining, a vague restlessness, mental throes, yearning."
在不太病态的层面上，它是一种灵魂的钝痛，一种没有什么可渴望的渴望，一种病态的憔悴，一种模糊的不安，精神上的阵痛，渴望。”
Toska and depression share some things in common, but they are not the same.
托斯卡和抑郁症有一些共同点，但并不相同。
Like, depression is the lack of desire, while toska is the desire for something unattainable.
就像，抑郁症是缺乏欲望，而托斯卡是对无法实现的东西的渴望。
Toska is not a diagnosis.
托斯卡不是诊断。
It is a collective sense of loss.
这是一种集体的失落感。
It is a heavy weight.
这是一个沉重的重量。
It is the darkness of long winters.
这是漫长冬季的黑暗。
"Toska" is the word my mother always used to describe her first decade in America.
“托斯卡”是我母亲经常用来形容她在美国的第一个十年的词。
Bilo ochen tosklivo.
Bilo ochen tosklivo。
It was filled with toska.
里面装满了托斯卡。
Mama describes her first months in New York as horrific.
妈妈形容她在纽约的头几个月非常可怕。
The story goes like this.
故事是这样的。
When we arrived at JFK, she took one look around and immediately started crying.
当我们到达肯尼迪机场时，她环顾四周，立即哭了起来。
We moved into an apartment on Avenue P in Brooklyn.
我们搬进了布鲁克林 P 大道上的一套公寓。
It felt like my soul had been ripped out of my human, my mother once told me.
我母亲曾经告诉我，感觉就像我的灵魂被从我的人类中夺走了。
I stopped seeing life in color.
我不再看到生活的色彩。
Everything about New York seemed awful and gray.
纽约的一切都显得糟糕而灰暗。
She was a 28-year-old refugee with a one-year-old.
她是一名 28 岁的难民，带着一个一岁的孩子。
She became obsessed with the past.
她开始沉迷于过去。
She forgot about the poverty that accompanied the fall of the Soviet Union, the lawlessness, the gang violence, the dead bodies she herself had walked past in the street.
她忘记了伴随苏联解体而来的贫困、无法无天、帮派暴力以及她自己在街上走过的尸体。
Mama said, I could only think of the beauty, the canals.
妈妈说，我只想到美丽的运河。
I could only think of my mother.
我只能想到我的母亲。
She spent hours walking around South Brooklyn with me in a carriage and her Walkman on full blast, listening mostly to Alexander Rosenbaum, a Russian folk singer known for his lyrics about prison confinement, Leningrad, suffering, and tortured love.
她花了几个小时和我一起坐在马车上，带着她的随身听，在布鲁克林南部散步，主要听亚历山大·罗森鲍姆（Alexander Rosenbaum）的歌，他是一位俄罗斯民谣歌手，以有关监狱监禁、列宁格勒、苦难和折磨爱情的歌词而闻名。
She would play her favorite song, "Naletela Grust," Sadness Has Descended Onto Me, on repeat.
她会重复播放她最喜欢的歌曲“Naletela Grust”，《悲伤降临到我身上》。
I imagine her cold fingers-- not yet swollen from the houses she'll clean, the toilets she will scrub-- reach for protruding plastic buttons.
我想象她冰冷的手指——还没有因为她要打扫的房子、她要擦洗的厕所而肿胀——伸手去够突出的塑料按钮。
Pause, rewind, play.
暂停、快退、播放。
During her first year in America, my mother lived in almost total solitude.
在我母亲来到美国的第一年，她几乎过着孤独的生活。
My father was in school during the day and working as a dishwasher in a Burrow Park restaurant by night.
我父亲白天在学校，晚上在布罗公园的一家餐馆里当洗碗工。
For company, she had only me, a crying baby.
她身边只有我这个爱哭的婴儿。
Mama said, I felt unnecessary in this country.
妈妈说，我觉得自己在这个国家没有必要。
I felt unnecessary to myself.
我觉得自己没有必要。
I was an adult woman with an engineering degree, and here I was sitting at home all day, not knowing how to ask for directions or buy food if I was starving.
我是一名拥有工程学位的成年女性，整天坐在家里，如果我饿了，不知道如何问路或买食物。
I felt like I might as well just roll over and die.
我觉得我还不如直接翻身去死。
She'd say, Tosklivo bilo mne.
她会说，Tosklivo bilo mne。
Toska had come over me.
托斯卡向我走来。
For a long time, I felt like "toska" was a word that belonged to my mother, but not to me.
很长一段时间，我觉得“toska”这个词是属于我母亲的，而不是属于我的。
I felt like I didn't deserve to take on a feeling from a place where I'd only spent a year of my life.
我觉得我不值得在一个我只度过了一年的地方感受到这种感觉。
It felt fraudulent to equate my puny American miserableness with the great Russian toska.
将我在美国的微不足道的悲惨与伟大的俄罗斯托斯卡等同起来感觉是一种欺骗。
I wasn't Russian enough to feel toska, and I didn't deserve to feel depression.
我还不够俄罗斯化，无法感受到托斯卡，我也不应该感到沮丧。
Despite having two languages at my disposal, I had no word to cling to.
尽管我可以使用两种语言，但我没有任何词可以坚持。
And then something happened.
然后发生了一些事情。
I was with my mother at home in her kitchen.
我和妈妈一起在家里的厨房里。
We talked as she waited for holodetz to solidify.
当她等待全息体凝固时，我们聊了聊。
And I asked her a question I used to ask all the time as a little girl.
我问了她一个我小时候经常问的问题。
I asked her to tell me the story of how we got here.
我请她告诉我我们是如何来到这里的故事。
And she told that story the same way she always had, until I asked her about the days when we lived in the apartment on Avenue P, when it was mostly me and her together.
她像往常一样讲述这个故事，直到我问她我们住在 P 大道公寓的那些日子，那时大部分时间都是我和她在一起。
She sighed.
她叹了口气。
Her hands were covered in a sticky gelatin, so she wiped her brow with the inside of her wrist.
她的双手沾满了粘稠的明胶，于是她用手腕内侧擦了擦额头。
Oh, Lera, those were the hardest years of my life.
哦，莱拉，那是我一生中最艰难的岁月。
It felt like the shadow had come over me.
感觉就像阴影笼罩着我。
I definitely felt toska, but it was also, well, probably depression, she told me.
我确实感觉到了托斯卡，但她告诉我，这也可能是抑郁症。
It was so casual, so effortless, the way she just said "depression" as if it was nothing, as if it was a word she had been saying all her life.
如此随意，如此毫不费力，她只是说出“抑郁”这个词，仿佛这没什么，仿佛这是她一生都在说的一个词。
I could see her reflection in the mirror of the microwave, and she didn't even hesitate, just kept on cooking.
我从微波炉的镜子里看到了她的倒影，她没有犹豫，继续做饭。
I sat behind her stunned.
我坐在她身后，愣住了。
Did that just happen?
那是刚刚发生的吗？
A few weeks later, we were on the phone, and I could tell she was in a strange mood.
几周后，我们通了电话，我看得出来她的心情很奇怪。
So I asked how she was doing.
所以我问她怎么样。
Depressed, Lera.
郁闷了，莱拉。
I'm feeling depressed, she said.
“我感到沮丧，”她说。
Jeez.
天啊。
This time, I was angry.
这一次，我生气了。
This is a word she's just using now?
这是她现在才用的词？
Why did she get to use the word she had always denied to me?
为什么她要使用她一直拒绝对我说的这个词？
Did she even have the right to use the word, to redefine her life so late in the game?
她有权利用这个词，在游戏这么晚的时候重新定义她的生活吗？
I resisted the urge to say something cruel.
我忍住了说一些残酷的话的冲动。
Months passed, and I began to realize that I had spent so long feeling that I did not deserve to be depressed that now, I was not allowing my mother to be depressed either.
几个月过去了，我开始意识到，我花了很长时间觉得自己不应该感到沮丧，现在，我也不允许我的母亲感到沮丧。
It took me a while to get the courage to finally ask her about it.
我花了一段时间才鼓起勇气终于向她询问这件事。
Why was she suddenly OK with this word?
为什么她突然对这个词觉得OK了？
She shrugged.
她耸耸肩。
What did you expect?
你期待什么？
I didn't know what the word really meant until recently.
直到最近我才知道这个词的真正含义。
How was I to know that's what I was experiencing?
我怎么知道这就是我所经历的？
Coming into this knowing, it wasn't a big moment for her.
意识到这一点，这对她来说并不是一个重要的时刻。
It was a bunch of smaller ones.
那是一群较小的。
She started hearing more Russian speakers use the word in America, on Russian-language TV.
她开始在美国听到更多说俄语的人在俄语电视上使用这个词。
She unattached the meaning of that Soviet depresiya from depression.
她将苏联抑郁症与抑郁症的含义分开。
And over time, the word just lost its stigma.
随着时间的推移，这个词就失去了它的耻辱。
I didn't think I could feel depression as an immigrant, she said.
“我不认为作为一名移民我会感到抑郁，”她说。
I thought I could have only been toska.
我以为我只能是托斯卡。
I think if she had said she was depressed, then she'd be admitting defeat as an immigrant.
我想如果她说她很沮丧，那么她就承认作为移民的失败。
She would be admitting that even here in America, after leaving her home to give her children a better life, things could still feel bad.
她承认，即使在美国，为了让孩子们过上更好的生活而离开家后，事情仍然会让人感觉很糟糕。
And all those times my mother told me depression was an American concept-- that I wasn't sick, but just particular, that my mood was temporary or could not possibly exist because I was too privileged in America-- looking at it now, I wonder how much of that was meant for me and how much of it was for her.
一直以来，我母亲都告诉我，抑郁症是一个美国人的概念——我没有生病，只是很特别，我的情绪是暂时的，或者不可能存在，因为我在美国享有太多特权——现在看来，我想知道其中有多少是为了我而有多少是为了她。
My mother wasn't wrong in describing how she felt in America as toska.
我母亲描述她作为托斯卡在美国的感受并没有错。
But I think she didn't realize she didn't have to choose between "toska" and "depression." She could have both words.
但我认为她没有意识到她不必在“托斯卡”和“抑郁症”之间做出选择。她可以同时拥有这两个词。
I didn't understand that either.
我也不明白。
To me, "toska" is the word that comes the closest to the feeling of being a child of immigrants, maybe better than any other word I know.
对我来说，“toska”是最接近移民孩子的感觉的词，也许比我所知道的任何其他词更好。
It's the knowledge that no matter how hard you try, you will never see the things your family saw, that you will never understand them fully.
人们知道，无论你多么努力，你都永远不会看到你家人所看到的东西，你永远不会完全理解他们。
And they will never really understand you.
他们永远不会真正理解你。
It's the yearning for a place your parents claim as home.
这是对父母称之为家的地方的渴望。
And it's a word I finally feel is mine.
我终于觉得这个词是我的了。
These days, while my mother and I are on the phone and she's cleaning, I'll hear the way she's breathing and ask if she's OK.
这些天，当我和妈妈打电话，她在打扫卫生时，我会听到她的呼吸声，并询问她是否还好。
She'll tell me she's feeling depressed, and I'll tell her that that's OK.
她会告诉我她感到沮丧，我会告诉她没关系。
There's no shame in that.
这并没有什么可耻的。
I feel it too.
我也感觉到了。
Sometimes when she asks how I'm doing, I'll take an inhale, the kind that gets caught in your throat right before you start to cry.
有时，当她问我过得怎么样时，我会深吸一口气，就像在你开始哭泣之前被卡在喉咙里的那种。
And she'll wait a minute and check I'm still there.
她会等一下，看看我还在不在。
And I'll tell her that I feel toska.
我会告诉她我有托斯卡的感觉。
And she'll say, of course you do.
她会说，你当然知道。
You're my daughter.
你是我的女儿。
Ira Glass Valerie Kipnis, a.k.a.
艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 瓦莱丽·基普尼斯 (Valerie Kipnis)，又名
Valeriya, a.k.a.
瓦莱丽娅，又名
Lera, is a producer on our show.
Lera，是我们节目的制片人。
She's working on a memoir about immigrants and untranslatable words.
她正在写一本关于移民和无法翻译的词语的回忆录。
["SEARCHING FOR A NEW WORD" BY CON BRIO]
[“寻找新词”作者：CON BRIO]
(SINGING) I'm searching for a new word.
（唱歌）我正在寻找一个新词。
I'm searching for a symbol to represent my mind in these shifting times.
我正在寻找一个符号来代表我在这个瞬息万变的时代的思想。
Our show today was produced by Susan Burton.
我们今天的节目由苏珊·伯顿制作。
The people who put together today's show include Bim Adewunmi, Sean Cole, Michael Comite, Cassie Howley, Seth Lind, Stowe Nelson, Katherine Rae Mondo, Nadia Reiman, Safiyah Riddle, Ryan Rumery, Alissa Shipp, Christopher Swetala, Marisa Robertson-Textor, Matt Tierney, Nancy Updike, and Diane Wu.
今天节目的制作人包括 Bim Adewunmi、Sean Cole、Michael Comite、Cassie Howley、Seth Lind、Stowe Nelson、Katherine Rae Mondo、Nadia Reiman、Safiyah Riddle、Ryan Rumery、Alissa Shipp、Christopher Swetala、Marisa Robertson-Textor、Matt Tierney、Nancy Updike 和 Diane Wu。
Our Managing Editor is Sarah Abdurrahman.
我们的总编辑是萨拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sarah Abdurrahman)。
Our Senior Editor is David Kestenbaum.
我们的高级编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。
Our Executive Editor is Emanuele Berry.
我们的执行编辑是埃马努埃莱·贝里。
Special thanks today to Amy Walters, Nabil Shawkat, Jack Saul, Gisha, Jennifer Kipnis, Matthew Steinberg, and Al Jazeera's podcast, The Take.
今天特别感谢 Amy Walters、Nabil Shawkat、Jack Saul、Gisha、Jennifer Kipnis、Matthew Steinberg 和半岛电视台的播客 The Take。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。
You can listen to our archive of over 800 episodes for absolutely free.
您可以完全免费收听我们的 800 多集档案。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks as always to our program's cofounder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
You know, sometimes I think he doesn't like it in this country at all.
你知道，有时我觉得他根本不喜欢这个国家。
When we named our radio show, Torey thought he had a much better name than the one we picked.
当我们为广播节目命名时，托里认为他的名字比我们选择的名字好得多。
Amerikanskaya zhyzh, meaning America nonsense.
Americanskaya zhyzh，意思是美国胡说八道。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Nonsense.
下周我们将带来更多关于《美国废话》的故事。
This American Life This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
This American Life This American Life 与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。