820: It Wouldn’t Be Make-Believe If You’d Believe In Me - This American Life

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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #820 | December 22, 2023 820: It Wouldn’t Be Make-Believe If You’d Believe In Me Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.

00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 820 集 | 2023 年 12 月 22 日 820：如果你相信我，它就不会是虚构的 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。

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Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.

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Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.

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Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass As this year comes to an end, and we think about what politics looks like right now in our country, a good place to understand it is a state political party that made a very bold choice this year.

序言：序言 Ira Glass 今年即将结束，我们思考我们国家现在的政治是什么样子，一个很好的理解它的地方是一个国家政党，它今年做出了非常大胆的选择。

Dave Dishaw The convention will come to order.

戴夫·迪肖 大会即将召开。

The state is Michigan.

该州是密歇根州。

This is a meeting that happened in February, where the Michigan Republican Party had to pick a new leader.

这是二月份举行的一次会议，密歇根共和党必须选出一位新领导人。

If you want to return to your seats, you're welcome to.

如果您想返回座位，欢迎您。

If you don't, that's fine.

如果你不这样做，那也没关系。

I know you're going to get up and sprint to vote here in a minute.

我知道你马上就会起身冲到这里投票。

They were at a crossroads.

他们正处于十字路口。

They'd gotten killed in the midterm elections, which was just a few months before this-- creamed.

他们在中期选举中被杀，就在这之前的几个月——雪上加霜。

They were further out of power than they'd been in 40 years, with Democrats controlling the State House, the Senate, the Governor's Office, most of the Congressional seats.

他们的权力比40年来更加严重，民主党控制着州议会、参议院、州长办公室和大部分国会席位。

And why?

为什么？

Well, a big reason was because the Republicans had all these candidates who were pushing the idea that the presidential election had been stolen.

嗯，一个重要原因是因为共和党拥有所有这些候选人，他们都在推动总统选举被窃取的想法。

And Michigan voters are not into that.

密歇根州选民对此并不感兴趣。

They do not want to elect candidates who are obsessed with the election being stolen, apparently.

显然，他们不想选出那些痴迷于选举被窃取的候选人。

So at this meeting in February, the party needed to elect a leader who's going to rebuild and take the party forward.

因此，在二月份的这次会议上，该党需要选举一位将进行重建并带领该党前进的领导人。

And if you think about it, one logical path they could have taken is, they could have picked somebody who renounced the whole election fraud thing.

如果你想一想，他们本可以采取的一条合乎逻辑的道路是，他们本可以选择一个放弃整个选举舞弊行为的人。

Right?

正确的？

All the conspiracy theories about voting machines and just all that stuff that Michigan voters are rejecting.

所有关于投票机的阴谋论以及密歇根州选民所拒绝的所有东西。

But there were no candidates like that at all, nobody who said, let's drop all this election fraud stuff.

但根本没有这样的候选人，没有人说，让我们放弃所有这些选举舞弊的东西。

Because a candidate like that would not have a ghost of a chance with the Republicans in this room, who are the ones who actually pick the new party leader.

因为这样的候选人在这个房间里的共和党人那里根本没有机会，而共和党人才是真正挑选新党魁的人。

In the last few years, election-fraud stop-the-steal enthusiasts have driven out the regular, old-fashioned conservatives, and even other MAGA-loving Trump enthusiasts.

在过去的几年里，选举舞弊、制止盗窃的热衷者已经赶走了普通的、老式的保守派，甚至其他热爱特朗普的热衷者。

Those people have been ousted, if they didn't care enough about election fraud or if they have ties to the old party establishment that this new guard sees as completely corrupt, compromising RINOs.

如果这些人对选举舞弊不够关心，或者他们与旧党建制有联系，而新卫兵认为这些人是完全腐败、妥协的绿诺，那么他们就会被赶下台。

So in the end, at this convention, there were nine candidates.

所以最终，在这次大会上，有九名候选人。

And just to give you a sense of the range of this group, the most traditional Republican of this bunch was a guy named Scott Greenlee.

为了让你了解这个群体的范围，这群人中最传统的共和党人是一个名叫斯科特·格林利的人。

And he's somebody who thought like, OK, election fraud is a problem.

他认为，好吧，选举舞弊是一个问题。

But he also came with connections to donors, to old-school pre-January 6 Republicans.

但他也与捐助者、1 月 6 日之前的老派共和党人有联系。

In fact, Greenlee's an experienced political consultant, which, by the way, in this crowd, is not an asset.

事实上，格林利是一位经验丰富的政治顾问，顺便说一句，在这群人中，这并不是一种资产。

He talked to one of the producers on our show, Zoe Chace.

他与我们节目的制片人之一佐伊·切斯进行了交谈。

So everyone's telling me that you're the establishment candidate.

所以每个人都告诉我你是建制派候选人。

Oh, my goodness.

哦，我的天啊。

Well, I get called all the names.

好吧，我被叫了所有的名字。

I mean, I'm called establishment.

我的意思是，我被称为机构。

I get called a RINO.

我被称为绿诺 (RINO)。

That's even worse.

那就更糟了。

I've also been called an "America First" guy, because in 2016, I was working extremely hard for President Trump, long before a lot of people were involved in the party.

我也被称为“美国优先”的人，因为在 2016 年，我为特朗普总统工作得非常努力，早在很多人参与该党之前。

So that's Scott Greenlee, the most traditional Republican.

这就是斯科特·格林利，最传统的共和党人。

The least traditional candidate for party chair was a complete political outsider in every way, somebody whose involvement in politics started in 2020 as a poll watcher in Detroit, someone who got famous when she claimed that she saw election fraud with her own eyes.

最不传统的党主席候选人在各方面都是完全的政治局外人，她从 2020 年作为底特律的民调观察员开始涉足政治，因声称亲眼目睹选举舞弊而出名。

She went on to Steve Bannon's podcast and all kinds of right-wing media, and then ran for Secretary of State.

她继续关注史蒂夫·班农的播客和各种右翼媒体，然后竞选国务卿。

She's an arresting talker, Black, a Millennial, a devout Christian, named Kristina Karamo.

她是一位引人注目的健谈者、布莱克、千禧一代、虔诚的基督徒，名叫克里斯蒂娜·卡拉莫。

So she tries to become Michigan Secretary of State and was soundly rejected by voters, defeated by 14 percentage points-- again, because Michigan voters are not going for the kind of election-fraud stuff that she was peddling.

因此，她试图成为密歇根州国务卿，但遭到了选民的彻底拒绝，以 14 个百分点的差距落败——这又是因为密歇根州选民不会接受她兜售的那种选举舞弊行为。

And she did not concede the race, still hasn't, which is something that the Republican delegates at the state convention loved about her.

她没有认输，现在仍然没有，这是州代表大会上共和党代表们喜欢她的一点。

It's the reason I did not concede after the 2022 election.

这就是我在 2022 年大选后没有认输的原因。

Why would I concede to a fraudulent process?

我为什么要承认欺诈过程？

Conceding to a fraudulent process is an agreement with the fraud, is which I will not do.

承认欺诈过程就是与欺诈达成协议，这是我不会做的。

We will grow this party without compromising our values.

我们将在不损害我们价值观的情况下发展这个政党。

We're going to be a party that grows like never before.

我们将成为一个前所未有的成长型政党。

We're going to be a political machine that strikes fear in the heart of Democrats, and we're going to win.

我们将成为一台让民主党人心生恐惧的政治机器，我们将会获胜。

Vote Karamo Pego!

投票卡拉莫·佩戈！

[CHEERING] Ira Glass And-- maybe you saw this coming-- Karamo wins.

[欢呼]艾拉·格拉斯——也许你已经预见到了这一点——卡拉莫获胜。

She becomes the head of the Michigan Republican Party, the outsiderist, the grassroots-ist-- not for nothing, the Christianist.

她成为密歇根州共和党的领袖、局外人、草根主义者——并非无缘无故，她是基督教徒。

And in picking Karamo, Michigan Republicans were saying, basically, what we want as a party is somebody to lead, who, A, believes the election was stolen, and B, has no connection to any establishment political machinery of the past, which is all corrupt.

在选择密歇根州卡拉莫时，共和党人基本上是在说，作为一个政党，我们想要的是一个领导者，A 认为选举被窃取，B 与过去任何腐败的政治机构没有任何关系。

That kind of purity test is something that you see a lot among Republicans right now.

这种纯度测试现在在共和党人中经常看到。

In the House of Representatives in Washington, so many political fights are basically between Republicans who don't want to compromise at all, and everybody else.

在华盛顿众议院，这么多的政治斗争基本上都是在根本不想妥协的共和党人和其他人之间进行的。

You see this in other Republican state parties in swing states-- Arizona, Colorado, Georgia.

你在摇摆州的其他共和党州党中也看到了这一点——亚利桑那州、科罗拉多州、佐治亚州。

But no state party has taken the flying leap off the cliff that the Michigan Republicans have.

但没有一个州像密歇根共和党那样从悬崖上一跃而下。

More than any other state party, they have the least politically connected, furthest-from-the-establishment, most ideological party leader and her followers running things.

与其他任何政党相比，他们的政治联系最少、离建制最远、意识形态最强的政党领导人及其追随者在管理事务。

Among other things, I have to say it is an enormously idealistic act, done by true believers who feel deeply that the only way out of the mess that we're in as a country is a total break with what has come before.

除其他外，我不得不说，这是一种极其理想主义的行为，是由真正的信徒所做的，他们深深地感到，摆脱我们作为一个国家所陷入的混乱的唯一出路就是与以前的情况彻底决裂。

And when Karamo won, they were amped.

当卡拉莫获胜时，他们兴奋不已。

I am excited.

我很兴奋。

Everything's going to change.

一切都会改变。

There were tears.

有泪水。

Woman 1 (CRYING) Oh, my God!

女人1（哭泣）哦，天啊！

Today, on our program, when a political party takes a leap like this one, throws itself out in an act of faith like this one, in a major swing state, what does that gamble look like?

今天，在我们的节目中，当一个政党在一个重要的摇摆州迈出这样的一步，以这样的信仰行动将自己抛出去时，这场赌博是什么样的？

What happens next?

接下来会发生什么？

Today, we're going to look at how this year unfolded for these true believers.

今天，我们将看看这些真正的信徒今年的情况如何。

Producer Zoe Chace went many, many times to Michigan throughout this year and has a special up-close and personal look at how all this played out.

制片人佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace）今年多次前往密歇根州，对这一切的发生进行了特别的近距离和个人观察。

From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.

来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Stay with us.

留在我们身边。

Act One, The Lonely Island.

第一幕，孤岛。

OK, before we jump any deeper into this, maybe I should take a sec and explain just what a state party actually does.

好吧，在我们深入讨论这个问题之前，也许我应该花一点时间解释一下缔约国实际上做了什么。

It's basically an organization set up to handle all kinds of boring, practical work that you need to do if you want to win elections.

它基本上是一个组织，旨在处理如果你想赢得选举就需要做的各种无聊而实际的工作。

They recruit candidates.

他们招募候选人。

They organize meetings.

他们组织会议。

There are these massive get-out-the-vote operations for state elections and for national candidates, too.

州选举和全国候选人也有大规模的投票行动。

And above all else, they raise money to pay for campaigns, buy ads, and do everything else.

最重要的是，他们筹集资金来支付竞选费用、购买广告以及做其他一切事情。

And the person who raises that money, usually, is the party chair.

筹集这笔钱的人通常是党主席。

So to have somebody with no political connections in that job like Kristina Karamo-- that is very unusual.

因此，让像克里斯蒂娜·卡拉莫这样没有政治关系的人担任这份工作，这是非常不寻常的。

Zoe tells the story from here.

佐伊从这里讲述故事。

Now, Kristina Karamo was elected in February, and the party did not pull together behind their new chair.

现在，克里斯蒂娜·卡拉莫 (Kristina Karamo) 在二月份当选，该党并没有齐心协力支持他们的新主席。

There was a ton of infighting still over the first few months.

在最初的几个月里，仍然存在大量的内讧。

And the first major test of her leadership, her ability to get things done, came this fall-- the Mackinac Island conference.

今年秋天，麦基诺岛会议对她的领导力和完成工作的能力进行了第一次重大考验。

It's a big, symbolic, fabled event in Michigan politics.

这是密歇根政坛的一件重大的、具有象征意义的传奇事件。

Politicians, lobbyists, presidential candidates all make their way up to Northern Michigan and get on a ferry to this island where no cars are allowed-- horse-drawn carriages instead.

政客、游说者、总统候选人都前往密歇根州北部，乘坐渡轮前往这座禁止汽车通行的岛屿，只能使用马车。

So the whole place does smell like horse shit, which makes it a perfect setting for a group of politicos.

所以整个地方确实闻起来像马粪，这使它成为一群政客的完美场所。

They hobnob.

他们热衷于交往。

They gossip.

他们八卦。

They make deals.

他们做交易。

They raise money.

他们筹集资金。

And the test for Kristina was, with all the old-school Republicans she and her followers have ejected from the party, could she raise enough money to even hold the conference?

克里斯蒂娜面临的考验是，在她和她的追随者将所有老派共和党人逐出党内的情况下，她能否筹集到足够的资金来举办这次会议？

Would it even happen?

它会发生吗？

Raising money is probably the most important thing the state party chair does, and Kristina has no fundraising background.

筹集资金可能是州党主席所做的最重要的事情，而克里斯蒂娜没有筹款背景。

Over the last 10 years, the list of reported jobs she's done are the scraping-by kind-- salesclerk, trivia host, substitute teacher, adjunct community college instructor.

在过去的十年里，据报道，她做过的工作都是零星的——售货员、问答主持人、代课老师、社区大学兼职讲师。

She made a Christian podcast.

她制作了一个基督教播客。

Her plan to fund the party was to get donations from small Republican businesses who have supposedly been sitting on the sidelines because they didn't think the party was conservative enough.

她为该党提供资金的计划是从小型共和党企业那里获得捐款，这些企业据称因为认为该党不够保守而一直袖手旁观。

But that never seemed to get off the ground.

但这似乎从未取得进展。

And for months before Mackinac, there were rumors like, how would she ever come up with the cash for this big showboaty affair?

在麦基诺之前的几个月里，就有这样的谣言：她如何才能为这场盛大的炫耀活动筹集到现金？

To get a read on those rumors, I checked in now and then with Jon Smith.

为了了解这些谣言，我时不时地与乔恩·史密斯核实。

He's the perfect person to go to, because he totally epitomizes what the Michigan GOP has become.

他是一个完美的人选，因为他完全体现了密歇根州共和党的现状。

He's an unabashed conspiracy theorist.

他是一个毫不掩饰的阴谋论者。

He started in state politics around 2020.

他于 2020 年左右开始涉足州政坛。

He chartered two buses to get to January 6-- didn't go inside the Capitol, he says.

他包租了两辆公共汽车前往 1 月 6 日，但他没有进入国会大厦内，他说。

And he and others stop-the-steal-ers took over their local county parties.

他和其他阻止盗窃者接管了当地的县政党。

Jon's on the state committee now.

乔恩现在是州委员会的成员。

And he was like, I doubt Kristina raised enough money to pull off Mackinac.

他说，我怀疑克里斯蒂娜筹集了足够的资金来完成麦基诺的任务。

I think they're lying to people about speakers and stuff.

我认为他们在扬声器之类的问题上对人们撒谎。

They don't have a way to pay for them, I don't think.

我不认为他们没有办法支付费用。

But I think-- you know that documentary with that guy that did that concert on the island-- "Fry"?

但我想——你知道那个在岛上举办音乐会的那个人的纪录片——《弗莱》吗？

I think that's what they're doing here.

我想这就是他们在这里所做的。

[LAUGHS] The Fyre Festival.

[笑]Fyre 音乐节。

Jon Smith But it's MIGOP, you know.

乔恩·史密斯：但你知道，这是 MIGOP。

That's what District 9 chair is telling me.

这就是第九区主席告诉我的。

Literally, in the Fyre Festival documentary, people show up in the Bahamas, and instead of Blink 182 and the Instagram models they were promised, there is no music, no food, no water, and soggy FEMA tents.

从字面上看，在 Fyre Festival 纪录片中，人们出现在巴哈马，但没有音乐、没有食物、没有水和湿透的 FEMA 帐篷，而不是承诺的 Blink 182 和 Instagram 模特。

What we all find at Mackinac isn't quite that desperate.

我们在麦基诺发现的情况并没有那么令人绝望。

When I got up to the Grand Hotel, there was definitely a Republican conference taking place, with Trump hats and red-white-and-blue sparkly pins, as promised.

当我到达格兰德酒店时，肯定正在举行共和党会议，正如所承诺的那样，戴着特朗普的帽子和红白蓝闪闪发光的别针。

And a grand piano playing a song about how anything is possible if only you believe.

一架三角钢琴演奏着一首歌曲，讲述只要你相信，一切皆有可能。

But apparently, this year was really different from past years.

但显然，今年与往年确实不同。

At night, I was wandering with a couple attendees, including one of the younger vice chairs, Hassan Nehme, in a suit and a low founding-fathers-y ponytail.

晚上，我和几位与会者一起闲逛，其中包括一位年轻的副主席哈桑·内梅 (Hassan Nehme)，他穿着西装，扎着开国元勋般的低马尾辫。

We were headed upstairs in an elevator, looking for the Mackinac parties, which I'd heard were legendary.

我们乘电梯上楼，寻找麦基诺派对，我听说这是一个传奇。

Oh, you haven't been to one of these before?

哦，你以前没有去过其中之一吗？

No. Hassan Nehme Oh, yeah, it's very fun.

不，Hassan Nehme 哦，是的，这很有趣。

Oh, yeah, this is very-- it's like-- imagine going to the mall, and there's, like, one store open.

哦，是的，这非常——就像——想象一下去购物中心，那里有一家商店开着。

This is how this weekend feels to me.

这就是这个周末给我的感觉。

'Cause last time you walk on the porch, there's, like, 800 people, and now, there's, like, nobody--

因为上次你走在门廊上时，大约有 800 个人，而现在，几乎没有人——

Yeah.

是的。

Last time, there were around 2,000 attendees.

上次，约有2,000人参加。

This year, the best guess I saw was 800 at the very most.

今年，我看到的最好的猜测是最多 800。

Last time, Ted Cruz was a keynote speaker.

上次，特德·克鲁兹 (Ted Cruz) 担任主旨演讲人。

A big name national Republican.

一位大名鼎鼎的全国共和党人。

This time?

这次？

QAnon proponent Jim Caviezel, who made the sleeper summer hit movie about child sex trafficking, Sound of Freedom.

QAnon 支持者吉姆·卡维泽 (Jim Caviezel) 制作了有关儿童性交易的暑期热门电影《自由之声》。

He also played Jesus in the Passion of the Christ.

他还在《耶稣受难记》中饰演耶稣。

Out on the colossal porch at one point, I talked to another state committee member who was upset about how things seemed to be going.

有一次，在巨大的门廊上，我与另一位州委员会成员交谈，他对事情的进展感到不安。

Well, it's not exactly what we were hoping or anticipating.

嗯，这并不完全是我们所希望或预期的。

Mark Forton is one of those who wanted a complete break with how it used to be.

马克·福顿 (Mark Forton) 是那些想要彻底打破过去现状的人之一。

And how it used to be was that the head of the party was a super-rich Michigan guy, real estate mogul Ron Weiser.

过去的情况是，该党的领导人是密歇根州的超级富豪、房地产大亨罗恩·韦瑟(Ron Weiser)。

In the last few years, the party yearly budget has been something like $20 million, a chunk of which came directly from Weiser, and mostly one other rich family in Michigan-- the Devoses.

在过去的几年里，该党的年度预算约为 2000 万美元，其中很大一部分直接来自韦瑟，而且大部分来自密歇根州的另一个富裕家族——德沃斯家族。

We knew that if the grassroots took over the state party, that the big shooters would go.

我们知道，如果草根阶层接管了国家党，那么大人物就会下台。

Not all of them, but we knew the DeVos family would go and Mr. Weiser would go.

不是所有人，但我们知道德沃斯家族会走，韦泽先生也会走。

They're all globalist.

他们都是全球化主义者。

They're all part of the same great, big mess that Michigan's in-- you know, bringing in the Chinese, battery factories.

它们都是密歇根州陷入的同样巨大混乱的一部分——你知道，引进了中国电池工厂。

So I mean, we know they're globalists.

所以我的意思是，我们知道他们是全球主义者。

And then, Mark spins out the first of the many times I will hear the theory that Kristina is a globalist plant, and that the reason things are going so badly is that the establishment planned it this way, from the beginning of her rise to power.

然后，马克说出了我多次听到的理论中的第一个：克里斯蒂娜是一个全球主义工厂，事情进展如此糟糕的原因是，从她上台之初，当权者就是这样计划的。

They knew the grassroots had had enough and they're going to take over this party.

他们知道草根阶层已经受够了，他们将接管这个政党。

They knew it then.

他们当时就知道了。

Now, the question is, are these globalist types-- are they going to sit by and take it?

现在的问题是，这些全球主义者会袖手旁观吗？

Or are they going to start planning for when the grassroots take over-- what do we do next?

或者他们是否会开始计划当草根接管时——我们下一步做什么？

They're after Michigan.

他们正在追寻密歇根。

There's no doubt.

毫无疑问。

But she's like the most anti-globalist of them all.

但她是他们中最反全球化的一个。

She's the anti-globalistest.

她是最反全球化的人。

Oh, I know.

哦，我知道。

I'm not accusing her.

我不是在指责她。

I'm saying, but who's pulling the strings?

我是说，但是谁在幕后操纵呢？

Who-- I just don't know what to think.

谁——我只是不知道该怎么想。

I'm telling you things that-- you're asking me what's on my mind.

我告诉你的事情——你在问我在想什么。

You're asking me what I'm concerned about.

你问我在担心什么。

And none of them are facts.

但这些都不是事实。

But my gosh, you look at all this crap going on, and you can't come up with a decent answer.

但我的天哪，你看着发生的所有这些废话，你却想不出一个像样的答案。

I just don't know.

我只是不知道。

I just-- I'm trying to find out.

我只是——我想找出答案。

That's not the only conspiracy theory I hear about Kristina.

这并不是我听到的关于克里斯蒂娜的唯一阴谋论。

In the hallway, I run into someone whose conspiracy theory is on a parallel track, but going the other way-- Braden Giacobazzi, kind of a frantic little dude.

在走廊里，我遇到了一个人，他的阴谋论与他的阴谋论是平行的，但却是相反的——布雷登·贾科巴齐(Braden Giacobazzi)，一个疯狂的小家伙。

He's a major Kristina supporter, a chair on one of her committees.

他是克里斯蒂娜的主要支持者，也是她的一个委员会的主席。

Braden says it's not Kristina who's the globalist plant.

布雷登说克里斯蒂娜不是全球主义工厂。

Instead, there are secret operatives within the party who are trying to take her out.

相反，党内有秘密特工试图除掉她。

They're doing it by starting all these rumors.

他们是通过制造这些谣言来做到这一点的。

He and his friend, Ken Beyer, another Karamo loyalist, told me about a few.

他和他的朋友、另一位卡拉莫的忠实拥护者肯·拜尔（Ken Beyer）向我讲述了一些事情。

Like, today, they came up with a rumor that Karamo is going to retire.

就像今天，他们传出卡拉莫要退休的传言。

It's, like, the most absurd nonsense.

这是最荒谬的废话。

I saw that on Twitter.

我在推特上看到了。

Braden Giacobazzi But why even start that rumor?

Braden Giacobazzi 但为什么要开始这个谣言呢？

What is that?

那是什么？

They lied, because they didn't want people to show up and pack the house.

他们撒谎了，因为他们不想让人们出现并收拾屋子。

That's why they didn't--

这就是为什么他们没有——

So they-- I mean, we've been fighting this for a while, and all they do is lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie.

所以他们——我的意思是，我们已经为此斗争了一段时间，他们所做的就是撒谎，撒谎，撒谎，撒谎，撒谎，撒谎，撒谎。

And they'll make up the most absurd rumors, because they know if they do that, it'll make-- it will try to discredit this event, try to discredit the administration, and try to discredit, basically, all of the MIGOP.

他们会编造最荒谬的谣言，因为他们知道，如果他们这样做，就会试图抹黑这一事件，试图抹黑政府，并试图抹黑，基本上，抹黑所有的 MIGOP。

People want power.

人们想要权力。

There's an old saying.

有句老话。

I don't know where it comes from.

我不知道它从哪里来。

But some people would rather rule over ashes than allow somebody to beat them.

但有些人宁愿统治骨灰，也不愿让别人打败他们。

That's absolutely-- oh, well, there you go.

这绝对是——哦，好吧，就这样。

I think it's from Game of Thrones.

我认为这是权力的游戏。

The actual business at Mackinac, the meeting of party leaders, was a showdown between Kristina supporters and Kristina skeptics about party finances.

麦基诺会议的实际任务是政党领导人的会议，这是克里斯蒂娜支持者和克里斯蒂娜对政党财务的怀疑论者之间的摊牌。

This was a closed meeting, but I got a tape.

这是一次非公开会议，但我得到了一盘磁带。

Kristina's team claimed they'd raised $650,000.

克里斯蒂娜的团队声称他们已经筹集了 65 万美元。

The skeptics demanded they open up the books and prove it.

怀疑论者要求他们打开书籍并证明这一点。

Toward the end of the meeting, Kristina went to the podium to defend herself.

会议快结束时，克里斯蒂娜走上讲台为自己辩护。

As far as the financial health of the party, the party is not going bankrupt.

就该党的财务状况而言，该党不会破产。

It's not.

它不是。

But-- but-- but I mean, what-- if you received the treasurer report, unless you think the treasurer is lying to you-- now, I will make a comment about a lot of the people who aren't giving.

但是-但是-但是我的意思是，如果你收到了财务主管的报告，除非你认为财务主管在对你撒谎-现在，我将对很多没有捐款的人发表评论。

Is it because they don't like or feel we're going to bankrupt or because they don't like the philosophical direction of the party?

是因为他们不喜欢或觉得我们会破产，还是因为他们不喜欢党的哲学方向？

[APPLAUSE] That's what's really going on here.

[掌声]这就是这里真正发生的事情。

At the end of the day, Kristina's team does not agree to, quote unquote, "open the books," show them the party finances.

最终，克里斯蒂娜的团队不同意“打开账簿”，向他们展示政党的财务状况。

And everyone trudges down to the boats, frustrated with each other, dodging the piles of fresh horse shit.

每个人都费力地走到船上，彼此沮丧，躲避成堆的新鲜马粪。

Act Two, Another Purity Test.

第二幕，另一个纯度测试。

Just a few days after the conference ended, there was something else, that really has nothing to do with money, that came up about Kristina's GOP-- about who's welcome inside this party.

会议结束后几天，克里斯蒂娜的共和党又出现了一些与金钱无关的事情——关于谁在这个党内受到欢迎。

It was an email anonymously penned by a guy who called himself Paul Revere.

这是一封由一位自称保罗·里维尔（Paul Revere）的人匿名撰写的电子邮件。

And the gist was, an Islamic takeover of America is happening.

要点是，伊斯兰正在接管美国。

Homicidal Islamic terrorists are becoming entrenched and infecting our whole country.

杀人的伊斯兰恐怖分子正在根深蒂固并感染我们整个国家。

It concluded, "To paraphrase Sir Winston Churchill, Islam in a man is as dangerous as rabies in a dog."

报告的结论是：“用温斯顿·丘吉尔爵士的话来说，伊斯兰教对人来说就像狂犬病对狗一样危险。”

This email was sent out to district chairs and vice chairs of the state party.

这封电子邮件已发送给缔约国的区主席和副主席。

Three of the vice chairs are Muslim, and two of them replied all, because they felt attacked by the anonymous email.

其中三名副主席是穆斯林，其中两人全部回复，因为他们感到受到匿名电子邮件的攻击。

One of them was Hassan Nehme, the guy I was in the elevator with at Mackinac.

其中之一是哈桑·内梅 (Hassan Nehme)，他是麦基诺大学时和我一起在电梯里的人。

Here's what he wrote.

这是他写的。

"Good evening, Kristina.

“晚上好，克里斯蒂娜。

This email was sent out to the Republican leadership, every elected member, and all the district chairs.

这封电子邮件已发送给共和党领导层、每位当选议员以及所有选区主席。

Conveniently, you were not added, So I decided to forward it over.

方便的是，你没有被添加，所以我决定转发过来。

I noticed that others have forwarded it to you, so I was eagerly awaiting a response from you."

我注意到其他人已经转发给你了，所以我急切地等待着你的回复。”

Hassan wants her to condemn it publicly.

哈桑希望她公开谴责这一行为。

He continues, "I took the liberty of reaching out to my contacts at Fox, ABC, and a couple of the Detroit news outlets today, with the hopes that you would join the Muslim vice-chairs to respond to this.

他继续说道，“今天我冒昧地联系了我在福克斯、美国广播公司和几家底特律新闻媒体的联系人，希望你们能与穆斯林副主席一起对此做出回应。

We need to ensure our constituents understand that the party will not stand for this and that our party stands for the Constitution, which defends the freedom of religion.

我们需要确保我们的选民明白，我们的政党不会支持这一点，我们的政党支持捍卫宗教自由的宪法。

So you either join us on air and we all play nice and show what our party stands for, or we go on there and talk about how you have sidelined us and that you have yet to condemn any of this rhetoric." Hassan says he never heard back from Kristina.

所以你要么加入我们的直播，我们都表现得很好，展示我们党的主张，要么我们继续谈论你如何排挤我们，并且你还没有谴责任何这种言论。”哈桑说他从未收到克里斯蒂娜的回复。

I went to talk with Hassan and his cousin Ali about their place in the party, if there even is a place in this party for them under Karamo.

我去和哈桑和他的表弟阿里谈论他们在党内的地位，如果卡拉莫领导下的党内有他们的一席之地的话。

These are idealistic Republicans who agree with her and what she stands for.

这些都是理想主义的共和党人，他们同意她和她的主张。

They were like exactly what you might think the Republican Party would want-- young Muslim guys in the Democratic stronghold of Dearborn, genuinely excited about the potential of bringing Arab Americans into the Republican Party.

他们正是你所认为的共和党想要的人——民主党大本营迪尔伯恩的年轻穆斯林小伙子，对将阿拉伯裔美国人带入共和党的潜力感到由衷的兴奋。

I met them at a business they own, a print shop in a cellar, no cell phone service, no windows, fluorescent lights, concrete walls, and their dog Pickles.

我在他们拥有的一家企业遇见了他们，一家位于地窖的印刷店，没有手机服务，没有窗户，没有荧光灯，没有水泥墙，还有他们的狗泡菜。

Where we sat in the back was a big sign up for Hassan's election.

我们坐在后面的地方是哈桑当选的大牌。

He ran for the US House a year ago, for Rashida Tlaib's seat.

一年前，他竞选美国众议院议员，竞选拉希达·特莱布 (Rashida Tlaib) 的席位。

Or he tried.

或者他尝试过。

I didn't even make it past the primaries.

我什至没有通过初选。

It was-- I spent my entire campaign trying to prove to the Republicans that I was a Republican because of my faith, so it was very fun.

我整个竞选活动都在努力向共和党人证明我是一名共和党人是因为我的信仰，所以这非常有趣。

It was very interesting.

这很有趣。

It was the first time my life I sat in a meeting where they're talking about anti-Sharia law.

这是我一生中第一次参加他们谈论反伊斯兰教法的会议。

And I'm a Muslim.

我是穆斯林。

I didn't know what Sharia law was.

我不知道什么是伊斯兰教法。

So I'm just sitting there listening to these people talk things about my faith that I don't even believe, and how we're getting into politics to take it all over and corrupt society.

所以我只是坐在那里听这些人谈论我什至不相信的信仰，以及我们如何进入政治来接管一切并腐败社会。

And I'm just sitting there like-- I'm a politician, running for Congress, sitting in the audience, listening to this.

我只是坐在那里——我是一名政治家，竞选国会议员，坐在观众席上，听着这个。

And it happened a lot.

这种事发生了很多次。

It happened a lot.

发生了很多事。

It's kind of what led to running for the vice-chair roles-- was kind of, hey, this is not right.

这就是导致竞选副主席角色的原因——有点，嘿，这是不对的。

The more people seem to doubt them, the more these guys wanted to prove that they belonged.

人们越怀疑他们，这些人就越想证明他们的归属。

Like, we're family-values conservatives, too.

就像，我们也是家庭价值观的保守派。

We're concerned about what our kids are learning in schools, too.

我们也关心孩子在学校学到的东西。

We think there's big election fraud, too.

我们认为也存在严重的选举舞弊行为。

We belong here so much, we actually should be in the leadership of the party.

我们是如此属于这里，我们实际上应该在党的领导下。

Hassan ran for coalitions vice chair, Ali ran for administrative vice chair.

哈桑竞选联盟副主席，阿里竞选行政副主席。

No one ran against them.

没有人与他们对抗。

Still, on the day of the leadership race, when Karamo was elected chair, one of the people in their own district tried to sabotage them.

尽管如此，在领导层竞选当天，当卡拉莫当选主席时，他们所在地区的一个人试图破坏他们。

They wanted to open the floor to nominations, because they couldn't let the Muslims run unopposed.

他们希望为提名开放，因为他们不能让穆斯林在无人反对的情况下参选。

And there was ladies out of Macomb-- and this was, like-- a lot of people have on record, saying, like, they were going around saying those exact quotes.

有来自马科姆的女士们——这就像——很多人都有记录，说，就像，她们到处都在说那些确切的引言。

Yeah, isn't that crazy?

是啊，这不是很疯狂吗？

Zoe Chace That's Ali, Hassan's cousin, admin vice chair.

佐伊·查斯 这是阿里，哈桑的表弟，行政副主席。

He's more relaxed than Hassan, tipped back in his seat.

他比哈桑更放松，靠在座位上。

He says things started to get weird right before the vote.

他说，投票前事情开始变得奇怪。

While right before that, some lady came up to us.

就在这之前，一位女士向我们走来。

I forgot her name, but she was talking to us like, hey, do you take Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior?

我忘记了她的名字，但她对我们说，嘿，你接受耶稣基督作为你的主和救主吗？

And we're like, bro, what the-- that's so off.

我们就想，兄弟，这太不对劲了。

That's out of pocket, first of all.

首先，这是自掏腰包的。

Second of all, you're asking someone that doesn't believe in that if they want to believe in it now.

其次，你是在问那些不相信这一点的人现在是否愿意相信这一点。

Like, you didn't even build up to it.

就像，你甚至没有建立起来。

This is just like, you walked onto the convention floor--

这就像，你走进会议场地——

I wouldn't hire her if I had a sales company.

如果我有一家销售公司，我就不会雇用她。

She came up to where our districts are.

她来到了我们的区所在的地方。

We were going to our district's areas.

我们要去我们区的地区。

And it was just rude, the way--

这太粗鲁了，方式——

Yeah, it was so rude.

是的，这太粗鲁了。

Hassan Nehme And no, but we had the conversation-- I had the conversation with her gladly.

Hassan Nehme 不，但我们进行了交谈——我很高兴与她进行了交谈。

And then actually, after the convention, I met up with her, and we had another conversation for, like, an hour.

实际上，在大会结束后，我遇到了她，我们又进行了大约一个小时的谈话。

I'm more than willing to entertain that conversation, how our faiths are very similar or not.

我非常愿意进行这样的对话，无论我们的信仰是否相似。

I'm not an enemy.

我不是敌人。

We are not enemies, the way the media perceives it.

正如媒体所认为的那样，我们不是敌人。

But I'll have that conversation all day, but--

但我会整天谈论这个话题，但是——

Wait, tell the story, though.

等等，先讲个故事吧。

Because I feel like I'm missing the beginning of the story.

因为我觉得我错过了故事的开头。

So what happened?

那么发生了什么？

So we were at convention, doing our rounds.

所以我们参加了大会，进行巡视。

This is the day of the election, so we're talking to everybody, letting them know, hey, this is our plan.

今天是选举日，所以我们正在与每个人交谈，让他们知道，嘿，这是我们的计划。

This is what we're doing.

这就是我们正在做的事情。

We're introducing ourselves.

我们正在自我介绍。

You know, yada, yada.

你知道，雅达，雅达。

And somebody goes up there during new business and wants to put it out there, like hey, we want to open the floor to have them-- or change bylaws so we could put people up against them.

有人在新业务期间走到那里，想要把它放在那里，就像嘿，我们想开放场地让他们——或者改变章程，这样我们就可以让人们反对他们。

And everybody starts going crazy.

每个人都开始疯狂。

And--

还有——

Did they say specifically, like, because they're Muslim?

他们有没有特别说，比如，因为他们是穆斯林？

Yeah, they were passing out pamphlets.

是的，他们正在分发小册子。

We learned after the fact, that there were pamphlets being passed out by these ladies.

事后我们得知，这些女士正在散发小册子。

Like, how are you going to let their voices-- and then--

就像，你要如何让他们的声音——然后——

Just to be clear, someone stood up during convention to make a motion that someone could declare their candidacy right then, to stop these Muslims from becoming leaders of the party.

需要澄清的是，有人在大会期间站起来提出动议，要求有人可以立即宣布自己的候选人身份，以阻止这些穆斯林成为该党的领导人。

Still, it didn't pass, and these guys ended up as vice chairs.

尽管如此，它还是没有通过，这些人最终成为了副主席。

They were excited.

他们很兴奋。

Like, hey, what's my budget line?

就像，嘿，我的预算线是多少？

What's the credentials to start emailing people as official state party representatives?

开始向作为官方缔约国代表的人发送电子邮件的凭据是什么？

Let's drive around, set up meetings, do whatever it is this new experimental group of people wants to do, to reach out to people.

让我们开车四处走动，召开会议，做这群新的实验人员想做的任何事情，接触人们。

But there were no leadership team meetings.

但没有召开领导团队会议。

They say no one called them to tell them, here's what we want you to do and how to do it, and that they were the ones, Hassan and Ali, who set up the first leadership meeting for vice chairs all across the state.

他们说没有人打电话告诉他们，这就是我们希望你们做什么以及如何做，而哈桑和阿里正是他们，为全州的副主席召开了第一次领导会议。

Kristina didn't show up to it.

克里斯蒂娜没有出现。

Then, there was the whole Mackinac situation.

然后，就是整个麦基诺的情况。

The guys wanted to help plan it, and the bylaws say that the admin vice chair-- that's Ali-- is supposed to play a big role in planning it.

这些人想帮助规划它，章程规定行政副主席——阿里——应该在规划过程中发挥重要作用。

But they say no one would communicate with them about it.

但他们表示没有人会与他们沟通此事。

Finally, they ended up at a meeting in Lansing with Kristina and some of her team, where they came away with the message, we don't want people like you leading things with this party.

最后，他们最终在兰辛与克里斯蒂娜和她的一些团队成员举行了一次会议，会议上他们传达了这样的信息：我们不希望像你这样的人领导这个政党。

In Hassan and Ali's telling, this is how the meeting went.

据哈桑和阿里讲述，会议是这样进行的。

Hassan was like, why aren't you advertising what a diverse leadership we are?

哈桑说，你为什么不宣传我们的领导层是多么多元化？

You're Black.

你是黑人。

You have three Arab-Muslim vice chairs.

你们有三名阿拉伯穆斯林副主席。

You have an Indian-American district chair.

您有一位印度裔美国人区主席。

You should be talking about that.

你应该谈论这个。

Yeah, it all goes back to, it's a Judeo-Christian movement, and somehow, my faith doesn't play a role in that.

是的，这一切都可以追溯到，这是一场犹太基督教运动，不知何故，我的信仰在其中并没有发挥作用。

Well, yeah, along those lines.

嗯，是的，沿着这些思路。

You want exact-- but yes, along those lines, it's like, it's the Judeo-Christian values, and we're not a part of this plan.

你想要确切的——但是，是的，沿着这些思路，这就像，这是犹太基督教价值观，而我们不是这个计划的一部分。

How did it make you feel?

你感觉如何？

Hassan Nehme I don't know.

哈桑·内梅 我不知道。

I'm used to it.

我已经习惯了。

I don't care.

我不在乎。

I'm still going to do what I think is right.

我仍然会做我认为正确的事情。

It just bothers you, because it's not like-- the Federalist Papers and the Anti-Federalist Papers were some of the best things I've ever read in my life, and those conversations that took place.

它只是让你烦恼，因为它不像——联邦党人文集和反联邦党人文集是我一生中读过的最好的东西，以及发生的那些对话。

And then, you deal with this type of rhetoric, and you're like, if we're truly talking about the founding fathers, the founding fathers did all of this so there's freedom of religion, so--

然后，你处理这种类型的言论，你会说，如果我们真正谈论的是开国元勋，开国元勋们做了这一切，所以有宗教自由，所以——

Ali had stepped out and walks back into the room at this point.

此时阿里已经走出去，走回房间。

No, we were talking about the diversity and why we're not playing it and playing the three--

不，我们正在谈论多样性以及为什么我们不玩它并玩三人组 -

Oh, yeah, yeah.

哦，是啊，是啊。

She said-- Zoe Chace "She," Kristina.

她说——佐伊·切斯“她”，克里斯蒂娜。

The country wasn't founded off of Muslim beliefs.

这个国家并不是建立在穆斯林信仰的基础上的。

It was founded off of Judeo-Christian beliefs.

它是建立在犹太基督教信仰的基础上的。

And that's a fact.

这是事实。

You can look that up for yourself." And then, I'm like, yeah, we understand that, but like, let's be more inclusive and word it differently, so everyone's included, you know.

你可以自己查一下。”然后，我想，是的，我们理解这一点，但是，让我们更具包容性，用不同的措辞，这样每个人都包括在内，你知道。

Because we got the most amount of Muslims in America right in your-- like, right there, you know?

因为我们在美国有最多的穆斯林，就在那里，你知道吗？

I don't want to talk about what was said in that conversation, like exactly what was said.

我不想谈论那次谈话中所说的内容，就像所说的那样。

Hassan starts to get annoyed, staring down the table at Ali.

哈桑开始生气，盯着桌子下面的阿里。

But yeah, she was-- Hassan Nehme No, I'm genuinely-- we're trying to keep our Republican Party together, and I'm not-- this just makes it a lot more--

但是，是的，她是——哈桑·内梅（Hassan Nehme）不，我真诚地——我们正在努力让我们的共和党团结在一起，而我不是——这只会让事情变得更加——

Hey, the truth is the truth, man.

嘿，事实就是事实，伙计。

Once you say something, you say it.

一旦你说了什么，你就说它。

I'm not against the truth, man.

我并不反对事实，伙计。

I'm not against the truth.

我并不反对事实。

It's just, this would cause much more problems when it comes out-- the wording that was used-- it plays the rhetoric-- then hey, we were just told that you guys are not a part of the plan.

只是，当它出来时，这会引起更多问题——所使用的措辞——它是一种修辞——然后嘿，我们刚刚被告知你们不是计划的一部分。

Well, she didn't say that.

嗯，她没这么说。

Zoe Chace Basically, they felt like at the meeting in Lansing, that they were being subjected to a different purity test-- not one about who was grassroots enough, but about whether anybody but Christians had a place in Kristina Karamo's party.

佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace）基本上，他们感觉就像在兰辛的会议上一样，他们正在接受一种不同的纯洁性测试——不是关于谁足够草根，而是关于除了基督徒之外是否有人在克里斯蒂娜·卡拉莫的政党中占有一席之地。

I talked to Kristina about this, and she categorically denied this version of events.

我和克里斯蒂娜谈过此事，她断然否认了这个版本的事件。

She says, of course, there's a place for Muslims in her leadership, and she says she did try to include Hassan and Ali, but they were unresponsive.

她说，当然，穆斯林在她的领导层中占有一席之地，她说她确实试图让哈桑和阿里包括在内，但他们没有反应。

Hassan shared screenshots with me that showed him reaching out to her about Mackinac specifically and getting brushed off.

哈桑与我分享了一些截图，显示他专门向她询问了麦基诺的事情，但遭到了拒绝。

In any case, by the time they got to Mackinac, which they had played no part in putting together, Hassan and Ali were feeling salty.

无论如何，当他们到达麦基诺时（他们并没有参与建造麦基诺），哈桑和阿里已经感到厌烦了。

We got there, and we didn't even-- they didn't even make us name tags.

我们到了那里，但我们甚至没有——他们甚至没有为我们制作名牌。

And that was a statement.

这是一个声明。

Like, you already know--

就像，你已经知道了——

That was so mean.

那太卑鄙了。

Hassan Nehme That was offensive.

哈桑·内梅（Hassan Nehme） 这很令人反感。

And they got mad when we asked, where's our name tags?

当我们问“我们的名牌在哪里？”时，他们很生气。

Like, hey, guys, we don't have name tags, and they're like, here, and then they gave us, like-- whatever.

就像，嘿，伙计们，我们没有名牌，他们就像，在这里，然后他们给了我们，就像——无论如何。

At that point, I'm not going to lie, I was kind of being petty.

那时，我不想撒谎，我有点小气。

They gave us, like, General Admission, and I'm like, hey, we're vice chairs.

他们给了我们普通入场券，我说，嘿，我们是副主席。

Like, no, no, no. Can I get a VIP one?

就像，不，不，不。我可以获得 VIP 吗？

Like, what are you guys doing?

比如，你们在做什么？

But yeah, we were not involved.

但是，是的，我们没有参与其中。

All I did there to help was, during the meeting on Sunday, the lights guy asked me if he could head out, so I told him, yeah, go ahead, leave.

我在那里所做的只是在周日的会议期间，灯光师问我是否可以出去，所以我告诉他，是的，走吧，离开。

[LAUGHS]

[笑]

Nice.

不错。

Zoe Chace We're still talking when Hassan's phone rings.

佐伊·切斯：我们还在说话，哈桑的电话就响了。

It's Jon Smith, the guy I always talk to about what's happening in the party-- the Fyre Festival guy.

这是乔恩·史密斯（Jon Smith），我总是和他谈论派对上发生的事情——Fyre Festival 的负责人。

He's got news.

他有消息了

No, I've been doing a six-hour-long interview.

不，我一直在进行六个小时的采访。

So, so Matt Gaetz led the charge, and they got McCarthy out and voted with the Democrats.

所以，马特·盖茨带头冲锋，他们把麦卡锡赶了出来，并投票支持民主党。

Oh, they got him out?

哦，他们把他救出来了？

Zoe Chace He's out?

佐伊·切斯 他出去了吗？

First time in history.

历史上还是第一次。

Zoe Chace Relatable to these new Michigan Republicans, who have a habit of overthrowing.

佐伊·查斯（Zoe Chace）与这些新密歇根共和党人有共鸣，他们有推翻的习惯。

First, they overthrew their own establishment.

首先，他们推翻了自己的建制。

Now, they're having buyer's remorse over the bet they made on Kristina, wondering if they should try to remove her, too.

现在，他们对克里斯蒂娜的赌注感到后悔，想知道是否也应该尝试将她除掉。

I mean, there's no good time to remove a leadership role.

我的意思是，现在还不是取消领导角色的好时机。

But if it's out of spite, then I don't like it.

但如果是出于恶意，那么我不喜欢它。

If it's out of principle and it's true to what they're saying, then fuck it, go for it.

如果这是不符合原则的，而且确实是他们所说的，那就去他妈的，去做吧。

You know, I kind of agree with Jon there.

你知道，我有点同意乔恩的观点。

Like, if everything is really as corrupt as they're saying and we get more solid evidence, and everything's spread to the light and it looks like what it is, then I don't see these efforts as being misguided.

就像，如果一切真的像他们所说的那样腐败，并且我们得到了更确凿的证据，并且一切都传播到了光明中，而且看起来就像它本来的样子，那么我不认为这些努力被误导了。

Are you talking about Kristina now or are you still talking about McCarthy?

你现在是在谈论克里斯蒂娜还是还在谈论麦卡锡？

I was ordering pizza, so I just jumped in, pretending I know what we were talking about, to be honest.

我当时正在点披萨，所以我就插话进来，说实话，假装我知道我们在说什么。

So were we talking about Kristina or McCarthy right now?

那么我们现在谈论的是克里斯蒂娜还是麦卡锡？

But as far as Jon Smith personally goes, he buried the lead on this call.

但就乔恩·史密斯个人而言，他在这次电话会议上占据了领先地位。

Hassan checks his email while we're on the phone.

当我们打电话时，哈桑查看了他的电子邮件。

As district chair?

当区主席？

Hassan Nehme Jon?

哈桑·内梅·乔恩？

What are you thinking, man?

你在想什么，伙计？

I'm trying to understand why you decided to resign.

我想了解你为什么决定辞职。

I can't-- I can't afford to play the game anymore.

我不能——我再也玩不起这个游戏了。

What are you going to-- Jon Smith It's an expensive hobby.

你打算做什么——乔恩·史密斯 这是一个昂贵的爱好。

Construction work.

建筑工作。

Ali Hossein I'm hiring.

我正在招聘阿里·侯赛因。

So I quit, because I can't afford to play, man.

所以我退出了，因为我玩不起，伙计。

It's expensive, going across the district, you know?

跨区的话很贵，你知道吗？

And it's just, uh-- it's hard on the bank, man.

只是，呃——这对银行来说很难，伙计。

To be honest with you, I wake up to politics 24/7.

老实说，我每天 24/7 都会接触到政治。

So I mean, I need to get off the mindset and get into work.

所以我的意思是，我需要摆脱思维定势并投入工作。

I mean, I'm right there with you, man.

我的意思是，我就在你身边，伙计。

It's--

这是——

I drive a 2000 Saturn with one fender, guys.

伙计们，我开的是一辆 2000 Saturn，只有一个挡泥板。

Hey.

嘿。

I mean, I put 90,000 miles on my truck, and I was forced to buy my lease because of this, and spent a lot of-- I promise you, I'm in the same boat, and it's-- ugh.

我的意思是，我的卡车行驶了 90,000 英里，因此我被迫购买租赁，并且花费了很多 - 我向你保证，我在同一条船上，而且它 - 呃。

But I'm just hoping we-- you know, it works.

但我只是希望我们——你知道，它有效。

It doesn't-- it doesn't-- it's not working out.

它没有——它没有——它没有成功。

[CHUCKLES]

[笑声]

That is an interesting question to me.

这对我来说是一个有趣的问题。

These leadership roles are volunteer, not paid.

这些领导角色是自愿的，没有报酬。

Like, did the party only work before because there were rich people who could afford to do them?

比如，以前的聚会是不是因为有富人有能力举办才有效？

How long can the not-rich people afford to be in political leadership here?

不富裕的人能够承担这里的政治领导职务多久？

Of all the people to leave now, I'm surprised it's Jon.

在所有现在要离开的人中，我很惊讶是乔恩。

You know, he was one of the first people in Michigan to make a show of pushing out the establishment-- part of this wave of new leaders who ousted their county chairs to create this grassroots state party, run by the newbies, disconnected from the old guard.

你知道，他是密歇根州第一批表现出推翻建制派的人之一，他是这一波新领导人的一部分，他们罢免了县主席，创建了一个由新手管理的草根州政党，与老保守派脱节。

He walked so Kristina could run.

他走着，这样克里斯蒂娜就可以跑了。

As for Hassan and Ali, they hadn't found the party an especially welcoming place, either before or after Kristina's takeover.

至于哈桑和阿里，无论是在克里斯蒂娜接管之前还是之后，他们都没有发现这个聚会是一个特别受欢迎的地方。

But they're going to keep trying.

但他们会继续努力。

Seeing how hard they're having to fight to be included, it makes me think about how relatively unimportant winning seems to be in post-January 6 purity politics.

看到他们为了被纳入其中而付出的努力，这让我想到，在 1 月 6 日之后的纯洁政治中，胜利似乎变得相对不那么重要了。

Like, if the party wanted to win, you could imagine a world where they'd be reaching out to guys like this instead of sidelining them.

就像，如果政党想获胜，你可以想象一个世界，他们会向这样的人伸出援手，而不是将他们边缘化。

But instead, it seems that this new version of the party is winnowing it down to a relatively small, untainted-by-compromise group of principled people.

但相反，这个新版本的党似乎正在将其筛选成一个相对较小的、不受妥协污染的有原则的人群体。

Not a winning strategy for a political party-- in Michigan in particular.

对于一个政党来说，这不是一个制胜策略——尤其是在密歇根州。

Zoe Chace.

佐伊·查斯。

Coming up, how to topple a Republican leader?

接下来，如何推翻共和党领导人？

Well, like somebody said a half-century ago, follow the money.

好吧，就像半个世纪前有人说的那样，追随金钱。

It's about to get real.

这即将成为现实。

That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.

芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。

It's This American Life.

这就是美国生活。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

As this year ends, noticing the kind of fights happening among Republicans in the US House of Representatives and around the country, we have this political story that we thought captures something about the state of Republican politics this year from Michigan.

今年结束时，我们注意到美国众议院和全国各地共和党人之间发生的斗争，我们认为这个政治故事反映了密歇根州今年共和党政治的一些状况。

We're calling the episode, "It Wouldn't Be Make Believe if You'd Believe in Me." Zoe Chace picks up where she left off.

我们将这一集称为“如果你相信我，就不会相信我”。佐伊·切斯 (Zoe Chace) 从上次停下的地方继续。

The last week of September, the plot to oust Kristina heated up, when someone in the Michigan GOP sent out a barrage of screenshots to a few reporters.

九月的最后一周，当密歇根州共和党中的某人向几位记者发送了大量屏幕截图时，推翻克里斯蒂娜的阴谋愈演愈烈。

They were of bank statements of the Michigan GOP.

它们是密歇根州共和党的银行对账单。

It was a little confusing, this collection of random screenshots, but it did seem like the party was almost completely out of money.

这组随机截图有点令人困惑，但看起来聚会几乎完全没钱了。

Jon Smith got the texts.

乔恩·史密斯收到了短信。

He didn't see any evidence of this thing Kristina's people had said at Mackinac about the money they'd raised.

他没有看到任何证据证明克里斯蒂娜的人在麦基诺说过他们筹集的资金。

He was depressed.

他很沮丧。

And they just told us we raised $600,000, which is a lie.

他们只是告诉我们我们筹集了 60 万美元，这是一个谎言。

They're lying, Zoe.

他们在撒谎，佐伊。

They're lying.

他们在撒谎。

They're lying to everyone.

他们对每个人都撒谎。

I guess, do you think they're lying because they're, like, corrupt?

我想，你认为他们撒谎是因为他们腐败吗？

Or do you think they're lying because they're scared?

或者你认为他们因为害怕而撒谎？

I think they're scared.

我想他们很害怕。

That's what I'm saying.

这就是我所说的。

We would be OK with it if they would just open the books.

如果他们愿意打开书本，我们就同意了。

We would help them.

我们会帮助他们。

If we need to raise $150,000 this weekend, we would all go out as a united front across the state of Michigan and make it happen.

如果我们需要在本周末筹集 150,000 美元，我们将在整个密歇根州团结一致，实现这一目标。

They're choosing to be deceptive.

他们选择欺骗。

Like, you think that if from the very beginning they had said, hey, we're not going to any of the old donors, we're doing a whole new thing, so we need you guys to fundraise, like, all the time, people would have gone with that?

就像，你认为如果从一开始他们就说，嘿，我们不会去找任何老捐助者，我们正在做一件全新的事情，所以我们需要你们筹款，就像，一直以来，人们都会同意吗？

I don't know.

我不知道。

But they could have just been honest right from the get-go.

但他们本可以从一开始就诚实。

You don't feel bad leaving people kind of in the middle of this mess?

让人们陷入这种混乱之中，你不会感到难过吗？

People were getting scared that the party was in no way going to be able to run next year's elections.

人们开始担心该党根本无法参加明年的选举。

There would be no fundraising, no Get Out the Vote, no coordination of strategy.

不会有筹款，不会投票，不会协调战略。

They were going to lose control of 2024.

他们将失去对 2024 年的控制。

And that brings us to Act 3, "The Insurrectionists Insurrect Again."

接下来我们进入第三幕“叛乱分子再次叛乱”。

The guy who leaked the bank account screenshots-- Warren Carpenter-- was a major Kristina supporter at first.

泄露银行账户截图的人是沃伦·卡彭特（Warren Carpenter），他最初是克里斯蒂娜的主要支持者。

Warren helped get Kristina elected.

沃伦帮助克里斯蒂娜当选。

He raised money for her secretary-of-state campaign.

他为她的国务卿竞选活动筹集资金。

He whipped votes for her chair race.

他为她的主席竞选赢得了选票。

I went to talk to him.

我去跟他说话。

He runs a landscaping business in the suburbs of Detroit.

他在底特律郊区经营一家园林绿化公司。

He walked me to the back of his office.

他带我到他办公室的后面。

Yeah.

是的。

I don't like it.

我不喜欢它。

Zoe Chace You'll get used to it.

佐伊·查斯 你会习惯的。

Ah, I don't like it.

啊，我不喜欢它。

I don't want to do that.

我不想那样做。

You want to record me?

你想给我录音吗？

[SIGHS] Zoe Chace Warren comes off antagonistic right from the beginning, and a little manic.

[叹气]佐伊·切斯·沃伦从一开始就显得敌对，还有点狂躁。

What he's just done-- leaking documents to the press about Kristina-- it's a big deal, though.

不过，他刚刚所做的事情——向媒体泄露有关克里斯蒂娜的文件——这是一件大事。

Well-- [LAUGHS] It's like you didn't read the news or something.

嗯——[笑]就像你没有读过新闻或其他什么东西一样。

"It's like you didn't read the news or something," he says.

“就像你没有读过新闻或其他什么一样，”他说。

That morning, the morning we spoke, September 29, Detroit News reporter Craig Mauger, an eminently fair and lightning-fast journalist, published a write-up of all the documents Warren had sent him.

那天早上，也就是我们谈话的那个早晨，9 月 29 日，底特律新闻记者克雷格·莫格（Craig Mauger），一位极其公正且速度快如闪电的记者，发表了沃伦发给他的所有文件的报道。

The article begins, "The Michigan Republican Party had about $35,000 in its bank account in August, according to internal records that flashed new warning signs about the dire state of the GOP's finances." This is followed shortly by a quote from a former state GOP official-- "These numbers demonstrate that the party isn't just broke, but broken."

文章开头写道：“根据内部记录，密歇根州共和党 8 月份的银行账户里约有 35,000 美元，这对共和党的严峻财务状况发出了新的警告信号。”随后不久引用了一位前州共和党官员的话：“这些数字表明该党不仅破产了，而且已经崩溃了。”

Warren is also extensively quoted in the article, which is a big betrayal of Kristina, talking to a journalist who, in her view, is just in league with the establishment trying to take her out.

沃伦在文章中也被广泛引用，这是对克里斯蒂娜的一次重大背叛，她与一位记者交谈，在她看来，这位记者只是与试图除掉她的当权者勾结。

Warren says he dabbled in Republican politics before this movement took off, worked on a statewide campaign over 10 years ago, but not much since then, until Trump.

沃伦表示，在这场运动爆发之前，他就涉足了共和党政治，十多年前曾参与过一场全州范围的竞选活动，但此后一直没有涉足，直到特朗普当选。

He loves Trump, calls him Big Daddy, and had that school board come-to-Jesus so many Republicans did around the COVID protocols-- masking in schools kind of thing.

他喜欢特朗普，称他为“大爸爸”，并让学校董事会接受了很多共和党人围绕新冠协议所做的事情——在学校里戴口罩之类的事情。

He went to January 6 after he thought he saw the election get stolen.

在他认为自己看到选举被窃取后，他于 1 月 6 日去了。

Says he didn't go inside the Capitol, but he had such an intense experience there, that not long after, he had a mental breakdown, as he puts it.

他说他没有进入国会大厦，但他在那里经历了如此强烈的经历，以至于不久之后，正如他所说，他精神崩溃了。

That's when he got involved in his local party.

就在那时，他加入了当地的政党。

He's one of the newbies who got elected to district chair, part of the wave that took over the party this year.

他是当选区主席的新人之一，是今年接管该党的浪潮的一部分。

He'd been part of Kristina's inner circle, but now, he'd resigned from his position as district chair and was talking smack in the press.

他曾是克里斯蒂娜核心圈子的一员，但现在，他辞去了区主席的职务，并在媒体上发表了严厉的言论。

So what happened?

那么发生了什么？

Well, a few weeks before the Mackinac conference, Warren got on the phone with Kristina's chief of staff, Joel Studebaker, and the rest of her team.

嗯，在麦基诺会议前几周，沃伦与克里斯蒂娜的幕僚长乔尔·斯图贝克（Joel Studebaker）以及她的团队其他成员通了电话。

And they were telling him they needed help to pull off the conference.

他们告诉他，他们需要帮助才能完成这次会议。

So he looked at their financial situation, and he responded with what I now understand to be his typical intensity.

因此，他查看了他们的财务状况，并以我现在所理解的他典型的强度做出了回应。

How much money do you have?

你有多少钱？

How much money do we need?

我们需要多少钱？

How much money are we owed?

欠我们多少钱？

Who's been paid?

谁得到了报酬？

Right?

对吗？

What's the problem?

有什么问题吗？

What do you need?

你需要什么？

Why am I on the fucking call with you?

我他妈为什么要和你打电话？

But like, Joel Studebaker didn't know what the numbers were.

但乔尔·斯图贝克并不知道这些数字是多少。

Like, they didn't know any of the numbers for anything.

就像，他们不知道任何数字。

They were literally flying by the fucking seat of their pants, shooting from the hip.

他们简直就是凭着直觉飞来飞去，从臀部开始射击。

It was-- I mean, it was the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard of in my entire life.

这是——我的意思是，这是我一生中听过的最可笑的事情。

Like, there was no budgetary schematic they could share with me.

就像，他们没有可以与我分享的预算示意图。

And during that initial Friday call, the only thing they had to share was like, they almost had the program ready to go to the printer.

在周五的最初电话会议中，他们唯一要分享的就是，他们几乎已经准备好将程序打印出来。

A program with speakers on it they didn't have the cash to pay for, it seemed.

一个带有扬声器的节目，他们似乎没有现金支付。

Warren called campaign finance experts, who looked at what he had and told him to get as far away as possible from this organization.

沃伦打电话给竞选财务专家，他们查看了他所拥有的一切，并告诉他尽可能远离这个组织。

I've looked at Warren's documents, and what I saw looked like a broke party, spending money way faster than it was taking anything in.

我看过沃伦的文件，我看到的是一个破产的派对，花钱的速度比吸收任何东西的速度都要快。

I also went over the party's FEC filings, though they haven't filed since July.

我还查看了该党向 FEC 提交的文件，尽管他们自 7 月份以来就没有提交过文件。

In all that I looked at, I did see some very unusual accounting, but nothing illegal, like Warren alleges.

在我查看的所有内容中，我确实看到了一些非常不寻常的会计，但没有像沃伦声称的那样违法。

So there's only two ways that this could-- there's only two things that this could possibly be, in my mind, all right?

所以只有两种可能的方式——在我看来，这可能只有两种情况，好吗？

It is either gross negligence, incompetence, right?

这要么是严重疏忽，要么是无能，对吗？

I would ascribe intent and say that it's malicious.

我会归因于意图并说这是恶意的。

And therefore, if it's malicious, then you have to go to the next conclusion, which is, then it's destruction of the party.

因此，如果它是恶意的，那么你必须得出下一个结论，那就是，它是对党的破坏。

Now, can you ascribe intent for destruction of the party?

现在，你能归因于破坏党的意图吗？

Warren goes on to float his own version of the sabotage theory I heard from other people, that Kristina herself is controlled by some kind of national operation, launched at the Michigan Republican Party in order to destroy it.

沃伦继续提出了我从其他人那里听到的破坏理论的他自己的版本，即克里斯蒂娜本人受到某种全国性行动的控制，该行动是针对密歇根共和党发起的，目的是摧毁它。

Either an operative or it's a fed.

要么是特工，要么是联邦调查局。

But it's either from the Democratic side or it's from an agency.

但它要么来自民主党，要么来自某个机构。

He's pretty sure it's an op and that it's not just in Michigan.

他非常确定这是一次行动，而且不仅仅是在密歇根州。

That would explain why GOPs in Georgia, Arizona, and Idaho are struggling.

这可以解释为什么佐治亚州、亚利桑那州和爱达荷州的共和党陷入困境。

Someone's sabotaging them.

有人在破坏他们。

But even if it's not an op, as someone who helped put Kristina in office in the first place, Warren now feels responsible for where she's brought the party.

但即使这不是一次行动，作为最初帮助克里斯蒂娜上台的人，沃伦现在也觉得自己对她带领政党走向何方负有责任。

And Warren's a doer.

沃伦是一个实干家。

He's also make-amends-er.

他也是一个弥补者。

I find that out myself when he calls me and apologizes for yelling at me at one point.

当他打电话给我并为有一次对我大喊大叫而道歉时，我自己发现了这一点。

Maybe that comes from his years in AA.

也许这源于他在 AA 的岁月。

So Warren has a plan to make things right.

所以沃伦有一个计划来纠正事情。

Oust Kristina Karamo.

驱逐克里斯蒂娜·卡拉莫。

He has a whole 18-point plan to do it.

他有一个完整的 18 点计划来做到这一点。

That Detroit News article was a first step.

底特律新闻的那篇文章是第一步。

Now he's whipping votes against her, just like he whipped votes for her at the beginning of the year, trying to make sure he has the numbers.

现在他正在煽动选票反对她，就像他在年初为她煽动选票一样，试图确保他有足够的支持率。

You file for the meeting.

您申请参加会议。

When we get the signatures, we're going to have all the signatures needed to overthrow.

当我们获得签名时，我们将拥有推翻所需的所有签名。

So then it just shows them, it's over.

那么它就告诉他们，一切都结束了。

I want psychologically for them to be beat before they even go into this.

我希望他们在进入这件事之前就在心理上被打败。

And it's over.

一切都结束了。

Uh, OK, everybody, I just want to get started real quick about why everyone's on the phone call.

呃，好的，各位，我只想快速开始了解为什么每个人都在打电话。

The next time I hear Warren's voice, it's from a Zoom meeting someone sent me of state committee members from around Michigan.

下次我听到沃伦的声音时，是在一次 Zoom 会议上，有人给我发送了来自密歇根州各地的州委员会成员。

Warren called the meeting.

沃伦召集了这次会议。

He has a spreadsheet of the 100-or-so people in the state committee color-coded-- who's with him, who's against him.

他有一份电子表格，其中列出了州委员会中大约 100 名人员，并用颜色进行了标记——谁支持他，谁反对他。

He's literally counting votes, trying to get to that majority to oust Kristina.

他实际上是在计票，试图获得多数票来罢免克里斯蒂娜。

OK, so let's go through this real quick.

好的，让我们快速浏览一下。

Everybody in red is in red until they're probably confirmed otherwise.

每个穿红色衣服的人都是红色的，直到他们可能被确认为红色。

So I need some people to speak up as we go through some of these.

因此，在我们处理其中一些问题时，我需要一些人发声。

I mean, Andy, is there anybody in your district that's not on board with this?

我的意思是，安迪，你所在地区有人不同意这个吗？

Andy?

安迪？

You muted?

你静音了？

All right.

好吧。

No, they're all-- all those people are for this.

不，他们都是——所有这些人都是为了这个。

That's not Andy.

那不是安迪。

That's Jon Smith.

那是乔恩·史密斯。

Despite having quit as district chair, he can't stay away.

尽管辞去区主席职务，他仍无法离开。

Warren and Jon go back and forth on whether or not they have a 2/3 majority.

沃伦和乔恩就他们是否拥有 2/3 多数席位反复争论。

Or do they only need 50%?

或者他们只需要50%？

Listen, if we don't have enough, if we don't have 2/3, we don't call the fucking meeting.

听着，如果我们没有足够的钱，如果我们没有 2/3，我们就不会召开他妈的会议。

Right?

对吗？

Nancy Pelosi doesn't bring anything to the floor if it doesn't have all the fucking votes.

如果没有获得所有该死的选票，南希·佩洛西就不会提出任何意见。

Neither do I.

我也没有。

So I mean, that's it right there.

所以我的意思是，就是这样。

You got the 2/3 to call the meeting.

您有 2/3 的票数来召开会议。

It's over.

结束了。

I'm telling you.

我告诉你。

So let me just-- just trust me on this, please, guys.

所以让我——请相信我，伙计们。

I know I'm forceful, and I'm sorry.

我知道我很强势，我很抱歉。

I'm a boss, and nobody ever tells me no, and that's why I'm not good at this job.

我是老板，从来没有人对我说不，这就是为什么我不擅长这份工作。

That's why I'm not a good district chair, and I'm not good at collaboration stuff.

这就是为什么我不是一个好的区主席，也不擅长合作。

And please don't take my forcefulness for trying to beat up on anybody.

请不要认为我的暴力是因为我试图殴打任何人。

It's not what I'm trying to do.

这不是我想做的。

I'm trying to convince you that this is a--

我试图让你相信这是——

Well, we're at the threshold of 50%.

嗯，我们正处于 50% 的门槛。

That's what I'm telling people when I'm talking to people is like, do we not move forward, or where do we get to the point where we have to start having this discussion?

这就是我在与人们交谈时告诉人们的，我们是否不继续前进，或者我们到了哪里必须开始进行讨论？

So I think we're at that point with 54 people.

所以我想我们现在有 54 个人。

I mean, that's a significant number.

我的意思是，这是一个很大的数字。

That's more than 50%.

那是超过50%。

We are the majority on state committee at this point without whipping a single fucking person.

我们现在是州委员会的多数，却没有鞭打任何一个人。

Then who shows up in the Zoom?

那么 Zoom 中出现的是谁呢？

The guy Warren lined up to replace Karamo.

沃伦（Warren）取代了卡拉莫（Karamo）。

And guess who it is?

猜猜这是谁？

Scott Greenlee.

斯科特·格林利。

Yes, Scott Greenlee, the guy who ran for chair from the beginning of the story, who wasn't America-first enough to get elected in the first place.

是的，斯科特·格林利，这个从故事一开始就竞选主席的人，他一开始就不够美国优先，不足以当选。

Remember?

记住？

I'm called establishment.

我叫建业。

I get called a RINO.

我被称为绿诺 (RINO)。

That's even worse.

那就更糟了。

Now, he makes his pitch to this renegade faction that he should be the choice of the renegade faction.

现在，他向这个叛徒派宣扬，他应该是叛徒派的选择。

And he cuts quickly to the chase.

他很快切入正题。

I think I could probably raise $1/2 million in the first week, a couple million by the end of the year, 5 by March, and salvage the cycle with about $10 million in total fundraising.

我想我可能会在第一周筹集 1/200 万美元，到年底筹集到几百万美元，到 3 月份筹集到 5 百万美元，并以大约 1000 万美元的总筹款来挽救这个周期。

And certainly, we have the challenge that some people wouldn't like, necessarily, everyone who is donating to the party.

当然，我们面临的挑战是，有些人不一定喜欢所有向该党捐款的人。

But I would welcome any and all dollars, within reason.

但在合理的范围内，我欢迎任何和所有的美元。

I mean, certainly, if Hillary Clinton moved to Michigan and said she wanted to help, I'd be a little suspicious.

我的意思是，当然，如果希拉里·克林顿搬到密歇根州并说她想提供帮助，我会有点怀疑。

But short of that, if people want to help this party rebuild, they're going to get an open door not a closed door.

但除此之外，如果人们想帮助这个政党重建，他们将得到敞开的大门，而不是紧闭的大门。

Some donors won't come back, Greenlee says.

格林利说，一些捐助者不会回来。

It's going to be a hard sales job to go to people who've been demonized.

向那些被妖魔化的人推销将是一项艰巨的工作。

Of course, I'll include grassroots, but we all got to play nice together.

当然，我会包括草根阶层，但我们都必须合作愉快。

Warren interrupts him.

沃伦打断了他的话。

Hey, Scott.

嘿，斯科特。

I had a question sent to me.

有人向我发送了一个问题。

How can you assure us that John Yob will not be running the party?

你如何向我们保证约翰·约布不会领导该党？

[LAUGHS] Zoe Chace John Yob is a powerful political consultant in Michigan.

[笑] 佐伊·查斯·约翰·约布 (Zoe Chace John Yob) 是密歇根州一位很有影响力的政治顾问。

He's been around, a political director for the John McCain campaign, symbol of the hated establishment.

他一直是约翰·麦凯恩竞选团队的政治总监，是令人憎恶的建制派的象征。

Uh, because I'll be the chairman.

呃，因为我要当主席。

I mean--

我的意思是——

Hey-- hey, Scott?

嘿——嘿，斯科特？

Hey, Scott?

嘿，斯科特？

This is Jon.

这是乔恩。

That would be a real question.

这将是一个真正的问题。

You know, you just said you have a hard time identifying what is grassroots and stuff like that.

你知道，你刚才说你很难确定什么是草根之类的东西。

But that is a legit question.

但这是一个合法的问题。

Sure.

当然。

So John and I have worked together.

所以约翰和我一起工作。

John and I have worked against each other.

约翰和我一直互相反对。

But you know, unless you guys are liking John Yob as chair, he's not running the party.

但你知道，除非你们喜欢约翰·约布担任主席，否则他不会领导这个政党。

I guarantee that.

我保证。

I'll take his input when it makes sense.

当他的意见有意义时，我会采纳他的意见。

That's for sure.

这是肯定的。

I don't want to close anybody out.

我不想将任何人拒之门外。

I don't want to manage by exclusion.

我不想通过排除来管理。

I think we need everybody pushing in the same direction.

我认为我们需要每个人都朝着同一个方向努力。

But I will make the decisions the chairman needs to make.

但我将做出主席需要做出的决定。

And you elect me, and I'll be running the party.

你选举我，我将主持这个聚会。

Greenlee-- from another era, it sounds like-- talking to consultants, raising money, being inclusive, bringing people in, instead of cutting people out.

格林利——听起来像是来自另一个时代——与顾问交谈、筹集资金、包容、引进人才，而不是淘汰人才。

The call ends shortly after that.

通话不久后结束。

They don't quite have the numbers to oust Kristina.

他们没有足够的人数来驱逐克里斯蒂娜。

I can't tell how Greenlee went over.

我不知道格林利是怎么过去的。

Jon's not sure either.

乔恩也不确定。

He and Warren chat afterwards.

随后他和沃伦聊天。

Hey, Warren.

嘿，沃伦。

Warren Carpenter What up, Jonny?

沃伦·卡彭特 怎么样，乔尼？

I put Tom in the waiting room.

我把汤姆安排到候诊室。

What are you--

你是什么——

What'd you think?

你觉得怎么样？

Jon Smith Yeah, that's what I was going to ask you.

乔恩·史密斯：是的，这就是我要问你的问题。

Uh, like, here's the thing.

呃，就像，事情是这样的。

Zoe Chace Warren's moving a million miles an hour.

佐伊·切斯·沃伦 (Zoe Chace Warren) 的行驶速度为每小时 100 万英里。

He's like, Scott or not, I know I'm going to get the votes to remove her.

他说，无论斯科特与否，我知道我会得到选票来罢免她。

Jon's still stuck on whether the grassroots will stomach him.

乔恩仍然犹豫基层是否会接受他。

I think he's an honest guy.

我认为他是一个诚实的人。

Warren Carpenter Yeah, he's super honest, dude.

沃伦·卡彭特 是的，他非常诚实，伙计。

You know what I mean?

你知道我的意思？

Like, if he says he's going to do it, I think he will do that.

就像，如果他说他要这么做，我想他就会这么做。

Yeah.

是的。

Because there's a reason he's the only guy that's still allowed in all the rooms, dude.

因为他是唯一一个仍然被允许进入所有房间的人，这是有原因的，伙计。

All the rest of these consultants are like ghosts.

其余的所有顾问都像幽灵一样。

They're like vapors.

它们就像蒸气一样。

You don't ever see 'em anywhere.

你在任何地方都看不到他们。

They're always lurking.

他们总是潜伏着。

Like, he's out in the open every single day, like, posting on Facebook about how to be a good leader, dude.

就像，他每天都在公开场合，比如在 Facebook 上发布关于如何成为一名优秀领导者的帖子，伙计。

You know what I mean?

你知道我的意思？

Yeah.

是的。

I'm wondering if Scott Greenlee is salvageable to the delegates.

我想知道斯科特·格林利是否还能被代表们拯救。

And I think he very well could be.

我认为他很有可能成为这样的人。

It's not like we got that many options, though.

不过，我们并没有那么多选择。

[CHUCKLES]

[笑声]

Hey, listen, my wife-- Jon Smith Do your thing.

嘿，听着，我的妻子——乔恩·史密斯 做你的事。

There's been a coup attempt to overthrow Kristina, and they've got a bunch of people that were lying.

一场政变企图推翻克里斯蒂娜，而他们有一群人在撒谎。

OK?

好的？

You want to know some of the lies that were out there?

你想知道一些外面的谎言吗？

Sure.

当然。

Darlene Oh, Kristina went to meet Donald Trump for dinner, and she came in a swimsuit and a cover-up.

达琳哦，克里斯蒂娜去见唐纳德·特朗普共进晚餐，她穿着泳衣和罩衫来了。

This is Darlene, Kristina supporter.

这是达琳，克里斯蒂娜的支持者。

I'm at a pasta dinner, called by Kristina's chief of staff, in a swanky ballroom in the suburbs of Detroit.

我正在底特律郊区的一间豪华舞厅里参加由克里斯蒂娜的幕僚长召集的意大利面晚宴。

The invitation read, "Join MIGOP Chief of Staff Joel Studebaker as he offers a rebuttal to claims of impropriety." In other words, spaghetti, meatballs, a PowerPoint for dessert.

邀请函上写着：“与 MIGOP 参谋长乔尔·斯图贝克一起反驳有关不当行为的指控。”换句话说，意大利面、肉丸、一份 PowerPoint 甜点。

Darlene's here for it.

达琳就来了。

All right?

好的？

They're kind of manipulating things to where it looks one way.

他们以一种方式操纵事物。

Kristina has not drawn a paycheck since July.

克里斯蒂娜自七月份以来就没有领过薪水。

All right?

好的？

You can see that in some of the filings.

您可以在一些文件中看到这一点。

First of all, they said, oh, Mackinac is not going to happen.

首先，他们说，哦，麦基诺事件不会发生。

She's skimming the money.

她在偷钱。

The speakers aren't getting paid.

演讲者没有得到报酬。

It's going to end up in the parking lot.

它最终会停在停车场。

Don't go.

别走。

Refund your ticket.

退票。

Mackinac was a huge success.

麦基诺取得了巨大的成功。

Kristina went back to what a conference should be-- God, country, and party, and family.

克里斯蒂娜回到了会议的本质——上帝、国家、政党和家庭。

She went there.

她去了那里。

She didn't go with all the dinner parties, all the different drinking parties.

她没有参加所有的晚宴，所有不同的酒会。

She went to bring us all back to our roots.

她去把我们所有人带回了我们的根源。

She is grassroots, and she's grassroots all the way.

她是草根，而且一直都是草根。

She is not selling out.

她并没有出卖。

She never has, and she never will.

她从来没有，也永远不会。

Downstairs, in the room literally just below this one, in another giant ballroom, is Warren, sitting alone with his laptop, a projector behind him.

楼下，就在这个房间的正下方，在另一个巨大的宴会厅里，沃伦独自坐着，拿着笔记本电脑，身后有一台投影仪。

He booked the room at 3:00 PM today, after he heard he was going to be barred from attending Kristina's rebuttal event.

在听说自己将被禁止参加克里斯蒂娜的反驳活动后，他于今天下午 3:00 预订了房间。

He's wearing a red baseball cap that says "Trump was right," and he's totally by himself.

他戴着一顶红色棒球帽，上面写着“特朗普是对的”，而且他完全是一个人。

I was like, is it him?

我心想，是他吗？

How are you doing, man?

你好吗，伙计？

What's up?

这是怎么回事？

Zoe Chace I don't know.

佐伊·查斯 我不知道。

Does it feel weird, everybody upstairs and you down here?

楼上的各位和楼下的你，是不是感觉很奇怪？

Yeah.

是的。

Zoe Chace Because I know, like, you lost all your friends, and that must feel hard.

佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace）因为我知道，你失去了所有的朋友，这一定很难受。

I'm always recording.

我一直在录音。

Warren Carpenter OK, well, I don't know, man.

沃伦·卡彭特 好吧，我不知道，伙计。

You come over with the microphone, I'm not sure.

你拿着麦克风过来，我不确定。

It's taking Warren longer than he expected to execute his 18-point plan.

沃伦执行 18 点计划的时间比他预期的要长。

Because, as he says, he's a vote counter, and he hasn't been getting enough people on the board.

因为，正如他所说，他是一名计票员，而他在董事会中没有吸引到足够的人。

And last week, he got invited to a meeting of the Macomb County GOP to present his documents and make his case.

上周，他受邀参加马科姆县共和党的一次会议，展示他的文件并阐述他的观点。

He put up a rapidfire slideshow for the delegates to convince them that Kristina was a fraud.

他为代表们制作了快速幻灯片，让他们相信克里斯蒂娜是个骗子。

And honestly, he sounded slightly unhinged.

老实说，他听起来有点精神错乱。

Here's some Facebook video of that event.

这是该活动的一些 Facebook 视频。

Guess what?

你猜怎么着？

There's more!

还有更多！

There's another one!

还有另外一个！

Wait!

等待！

There's four more!

还有四个！

Over $100,000 that can't be accounted for in deposits!

超过10万美元无法入账！

(YELLING) This is your party!

（大喊）这是你的派对！

But he's raised enough heat that Karamo's people decided they want to respond publicly to his claims.

但他引起了足够的热度，卡拉莫的人民决定公开回应他的说法。

Hence the pasta dinner and counterpresentation.

因此，意大利面晚餐和反面表演。

For Warren's part, he's here to respond to the response to his claims and try to keep his cool.

就沃伦而言，他来这里是为了回应人们对他的说法的回应，并努力保持冷静。

My whole motive of coming tonight was I'm just going to be calm.

我今晚来的全部动机就是我想保持冷静。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Warren Carpenter Right?

沃伦·卡彭特 对吗？

And I was going to answer people's questions if they had concerns.

如果人们有疑虑，我会回答他们的问题。

And--

还有——

Someone comes in and asks, are you in the middle of an interview?

有人进来问，你在面试吗？

Yeah, she's talking to me just real quick.

是的，她跟我说话速度很快。

But do you want to talk?

但你想谈谈吗？

I just wanted to bring her up to speed on what's going on down here.

我只是想让她了解这里发生的事情。

Can you give her a kind of an overview?

你能给她一个概述吗？

Yeah.

是的。

So anybody that wants to ask anything after all this is done, they come down here, and I'll open up documents, show them whatever they want to see.

因此，在这一切完成后，任何想问任何问题的人都可以来这里，我会打开文件，向他们展示他们想看的任何内容。

I got everything-- I got everything that I got.

我得到了一切——我得到了我所得到的一切。

If you had pasta, I'd stay.

如果你有意大利面，我会留下来。

Warren Carpenter Then it would-- I get it, I get it.

沃伦·卡彭特 那么它会——我明白了，我明白了。

You gotta spend the money.

你得花这笔钱。

Zoe Chace You got some curious customers.

Zoe Chace 你有一些好奇的顾客。

In the ballroom upstairs, it's maybe 75 people.

楼上的宴会厅大约有 75 人。

Kristina's chief of staff, Joel Studebaker, is presenting a rebuttal to Warren's crazed Facebook video.

克里斯蒂娜的幕僚长乔尔·斯图贝克 (Joel Studebaker) 正在对沃伦疯狂的 Facebook 视频进行反驳。

He opens with a Bible verse, but then gets surprisingly detailed, shows snapshots of bank statements.

他以一首圣经经文开始，但随后变得令人惊讶的详细，展示了银行对账单的快照。

After complaining that the previous administration left them with little money and some debt, which is true, there's this admission.

在抱怨上届政府给他们留下的钱很少和一些债务（这是事实）之后，他们承认了这一点。

Here's the reality.

这就是现实。

Fundraising has been a challenge.

筹款一直是一个挑战。

It's been very difficult.

这非常困难。

A lot of these things, you know, they're just realities.

你知道，很多事情都是现实。

And we need help.

我们需要帮助。

We do need help.

我们确实需要帮助。

But you got to be able to work together.

但你们必须能够一起工作。

And there's no way we're going to do that if we keep giving liberal media interviews and if we keep walking through demonization schemes.

如果我们继续接受自由派媒体采访，如果我们继续实施妖魔化计划，我们就不可能做到这一点。

It's just not going to happen.

这不会发生。

So we need help, and we need to do it the right way.

所以我们需要帮助，并且需要以正确的方式去做。

We need to collaborate.

我们需要合作。

When Kristina finally speaks, she talks about finances, about Mackinac, and she's frank.

当克里斯蒂娜最终说话时，她谈到了财务、麦基诺，而且她很坦率。

She admits they would have liked to make a lot more money off the conference.

她承认他们希望通过这次会议赚更多的钱。

They're still in debt for $110,000 speaker's fee-- for Jim Caviezel, for example.

他们仍然欠着 110,000 美元的演讲费债务——例如吉姆·卡维泽的演讲费。

She reminds everyone that the reason they elected her is they wanted to run the party differently, not raise $20 million and run right through it like previous chairs.

她提醒大家，他们选举她的原因是他们想要以不同的方式管理政党，而不是像以前的主席那样筹集 2000 万美元并直接管理它。

So where did all this $20 million go?

那么这2000万美元都去哪儿了？

What was it spent on?

到底花了什么钱呢？

Oh, I know, a bunch of consultants who did nothing.

哦，我知道，一群什么也没做的顾问。

So that's what it was spent on.

所以这就是花了。

I mean, where did all the money get-- people brag about how much money they raised, and then go pay off their friends.

我的意思是，所有的钱都是从哪里来的——人们吹嘘自己筹集了多少钱，然后去还清他们的朋友。

So that what's been going on for decades.

所以这就是几十年来发生的事情。

So yes, we disrupted that system.

所以，是的，我们破坏了这个系统。

So you know--

所以你知道——

[APPLAUSE] Zoe Chace She spoke for 20 minutes, no pauses or hesitations, mostly informing the crowd of mostly supporters that she was the victim of a deep-state conspiracy to take her out.

[掌声]佐伊·切斯 (Zoe Chace) 她讲话了 20 分钟，没有停顿或犹豫，主要是告诉在场的大多数支持者，她是深层政府阴谋的受害者，目的是将她赶下台。

Again, this whole deep-state thing is very real.

再说一次，这整个深层政府的事情是非常真实的。

It is very real.

这是非常真实的。

Because their goal is that if these people don't succeed, not just here, but also places like Colorado, Kansas, Georgia, where you have a bunch of America-first chairs, the goal for these people is, if these people fail, then a grassroots person won't dare run for chair.

因为他们的目标是，如果这些人不成功，不仅是在这里，还有像科罗拉多州、堪萨斯州、佐治亚州这样的地方，那里有一堆美国优先的椅子，这些人的目标是，如果这些人失败了，那么基层人民就不敢竞选椅子。

And a lot of the people who may or may not want to support a grassroots person for chair wouldn't do it because it's like, well, last time, it was so horrible.

许多可能愿意或不愿意支持基层人士担任主席的人都不会这样做，因为就像，好吧，上次，这太可怕了。

We can never do it again.

我们永远不能再这样做了。

She called out the people she sees as covert deep-state operatives within the current party.

她指出了她认为是现任党内秘密深层国家特工的人。

When she describes them, they sound a lot like Warren.

当她描述他们时，他们听起来很像沃伦。

And the thing about it is, these people-- they pretend to be patriots like us so they can get close to us.

问题是，这些人假装是像我们一样的爱国者，这样他们就可以接近我们。

They pretend to be one of us so we will trust them.

他们假装是我们中的一员，这样我们就会信任他们。

Moving on next to Ali and Hassan, not by name.

继续前进到阿里和哈桑旁边，但不指名道姓。

I mean, I had two vice chairs falsely accuse me of being a bigot against Muslims.

我的意思是，有两位副主席错误地指责我对穆斯林持偏执态度。

But she insists, her administration hasn't ever lied or committed any crimes.

但她坚称，她的政府从未撒过谎或犯下任何罪行。

The fighting itself, she says, is a tactic to keep her from succeeding.

她说，战斗本身就是阻止她成功的一种策略。

The fighting, however, immediately continues.

然而，战斗立即继续。

Back downstairs in Warren's room, a guy from Kristina's team swaggers in to confront Warren.

回到楼下沃伦的房间，克里斯蒂娜团队的一个人大摇大摆地走进来与沃伦对峙。

His name's Ken Beyer.

他的名字叫肯·拜尔。

He said he'd received a text from Warren saying, I'm coming after you.

他说他收到沃伦发来的短信，说我来找你。

Warren says, it just said, I'm coming.

沃伦说，它只是说，我来了。

And there's this big Wild-West-y faceoff between them.

他们之间发生了一场狂野西部式的大对峙。

Hey, Ken!

嘿，肯！

You going to ask some questions?

你要问一些问题吗？

Oh, I just [INAUDIBLE].

哦，我只是[听不清]。

If you're going to threaten me, do it to my face.

如果你要威胁我，就当着我的面这样做吧。

Oh, I'd never threaten you at all.

哦，我根本不会威胁你。

Get out of here.

离开这里。

Listen, I could have you removed for trespassing, just as you were about to have me removed.

听着，我可以以非法侵入罪将你驱逐出境，就像你正准备将我驱逐出境一样。

I didn't threaten you.

我没有威胁你。

It wasn't ever a threaten.

这从来都不是威胁。

But if you want to threaten me, do it to my face.

但如果你想威胁我，就当着我的面这样做吧。

I never threatened you, Ken.

我从来没有威胁过你，肯。

You seem like you're upset.

你看起来好像很不高兴。

Good night.

晚安。

Now, a little crowd gathers, watching them go at it across the basement ballroom.

现在，一小群人聚集在一起，看着他们穿过地下室舞厅。

Come on, Ken.

来吧，肯。

Look at all the files, baby!

看看所有的文件，宝贝！

Come on, baby, come on!

来吧，宝贝，来吧！

What about your felony?

你的重罪呢？

Warren Carpenter Yeah, I got a felony for drunk driving.

沃伦·卡彭特 是的，我因醉酒驾驶而被判重罪。

It was years ago.

那是几年前的事了。

See this right here?

看到这里了吗？

That's a negative in the account!

那是账户里的负数！

There's the $15,000 that came in!

15,000 美元进来了！

This is the problem with the coup Warren's trying to pull off.

这就是沃伦试图实现的政变的问题所在。

It's the problem that was baked into Karamo's version of the party from the start.

这是卡拉莫版本的派对从一开始就存在的问题。

This group of people all agree on some basic issues-- election fraud, less immigration, no gun control, abortion is murder, don't tell me when to wear a mask, don't tell my children what to read, and the rent is too damn high.

这群人在一些基本问题上都达成了一致——选举舞弊、减少移民、没有枪支管制、堕胎就是谋杀、别告诉我什么时候戴口罩、别告诉我的孩子该读什么、房租太高了。

But what's brought them all together running this party is their lack of trust in any kind of political leadership.

但让他们聚集在一起管理这个政党的原因是他们对任何形式的政治领导层都缺乏信任。

They are a very suspicious, conspiracy-minded group.

他们是一个非常可疑、有阴谋论的群体。

And that's how they look at everything, including each other.

这就是他们看待一切的方式，包括彼此。

Of course they can't agree on who the real enemy is of the cause they all actually believe in.

当然，他们无法就谁是他们真正信仰的事业的真正敌人达成一致。

Right before this story went to air this week, Kristina Karamo finally agreed to an interview.

就在本周这个故事播出之前，克里斯蒂娜·卡拉莫终于同意接受采访。

I reached her while she was taking a morning walk.

当她早上散步时，我找到了她。

I asked her about her year in power.

我问她执政那一年的情况。

I told her it seemed like, for all her good intentions, the party's ended up in disarray, broke, and ineffective, without the money it needs to win elections next year.

我告诉她，尽管她的初衷是好的，但该党最终却陷入了混乱、破产和无效，没有赢得明年选举所需的资金。

I will say, I reject your premise that my tenure should be defined by funds.

我会说，我拒绝你的前提，即我的任期应该由资金来定义。

See, that's the problem.

你看，这就是问题所在。

Your premise is off.

你的前提已经关闭了。

Your premise is that I should be defined by money, because the only people that benefit from the premise you're positing is the political class.

你的前提是我应该用金钱来定义，因为唯一从你提出的前提中受益的人是政治阶层。

The only people that benefit are the elitists.

唯一受益的人是精英主义者。

And I was elected to reject that premise.

我被选为拒绝这个前提。

This is what it's like to talk to her about this.

这就是和她谈论这件事的感觉。

She wouldn't say what she'd do to get the party out of this mess.

她不愿透露自己会采取什么措施来让聚会摆脱困境。

She wouldn't even acknowledge that they're in a mess.

她甚至不承认他们陷入了混乱。

We're not bankrupt.

我们没有破产。

That's not true.

那不是真的。

So the thing about it is, we are operating at a positive cash flow.

所以问题是，我们的运营现金流为正。

So yes, it has-- have I hit the financial goals that I would like?

所以，是的，我是否达到了我想要的财务目标？

Not at the level I would like, but we are on our way.

虽然没有达到我想要的水平，但我们已经在路上了。

Well, that's why I guess I'm asking just for any example.

好吧，这就是为什么我想我只是想举个例子。

Is there a fundraiser in which you tapped into businesses that had been sitting on the sidelines, like you talked about in your campaign?

是否有一次筹款活动让您接触到了一直处于观望状态的企业，就像您在竞选中谈到的那样？

Of course.

当然。

Zoe Chace Or something like that?

佐伊·查斯（Zoe Chace）或者类似的东西？

Of course.

当然。

Zoe Chace Just any specific you can give me?

Zoe Chace 您能给我具体的信息吗？

Yeah, well, for one, yes.

是的，嗯，一方面，是的。

But I don't know what specific you're looking for.

但不知道你具体要找什么。

Because my question is, why are you so dogmatic on the notion of people who want to push the elitist narrative?

因为我的问题是，为什么你对那些想要推动精英主义叙事的人如此教条？

That's my question.

这就是我的问题。

Because I've answered it multiple times.

因为我已经回答过很多次了。

But my question to you, so why are you so aggressive on that notion?

但我问你的问题是，为什么你对这个想法如此激进？

I'm not going to go through the nuts and bolts of every person who's given $1 or $10,000 or $20,000 to our administration.

我不会详细介绍每个向我们的政府捐赠 1 美元、10,000 美元或 20,000 美元的人的具体细节。

I've answered, we're operating at a positive cash flow.

我已经回答过，我们的运营现金流为正。

As of last month, they're bringing in more than they're spending.

截至上个月，他们的收入超过了支出。

Not because of any fundraising.

不是因为任何筹款。

They got a payout from a national committee.

他们从国家委员会得到了一笔报酬。

But they're still deep in debt, and I could not get any specifics from Kristina on how the party would bring in the millions they've always used to run elections for 2024.

但他们仍然负债累累，而且我无法从克里斯蒂娜那里得到任何关于该党将如何筹集他们一直用于 2024 年选举的数百万美元的具体信息。

She pointed out, again and again, that was the wrong question.

她一再指出，这是一个错误的问题。

They've cut costs.

他们削减了成本。

They do have a plan to run a ground game.

他们确实有计划举办一场地面比赛。

And once that happens, I can judge how that goes.

一旦发生这种情况，我就可以判断事情进展如何。

Over the last few months, I've watched her circle of supporters get smaller.

在过去的几个月里，我发现她的支持者圈子越来越小。

District chairs have resigned.

区主席已辞职。

Members of the budget committee resigned, upset about the finances and that the leadership wouldn't listen to them.

预算委员会成员辞职，因为对财务状况感到不满，而且领导层不听他们的意见。

For all intents and purposes, the party split in two.

出于所有意图和目的，该党一分为二。

What does it feel like to have all these people, who you guys were on the same team to begin with, calling for your ouster or coming after you, making all these claims?

让所有这些人，你们一开始就在同一个团队，要求你下台或追随你，提出所有这些主张，感觉如何？

Like, what does it feel like?

比如说，感觉怎么样？

What's the experience like for you?

对您来说，这是一种怎样的体验？

It's betrayal.

这是背叛。

I don't like it.

我不喜欢它。

But when you realize, again, the fact that our country is corrupt and the way it is, because most of the people involved in politics are dishonest.

但当你再次意识到我们国家腐败的事实和现状时，因为大多数参与政治的人都是不诚实的。

People want to lie and try to demean my character.

人们想要撒谎并试图贬低我的品格。

I mean, so be it.

我的意思是，就这样吧。

I just keep going.

我只是继续前进。

I was talking to Jon Smith, who was there when this all began.

我正在和乔恩·史密斯交谈，这一切开始时他就在场。

I said, it seems like the year of Kristina Karamo has been a year of failure.

我说，克里斯蒂娜·卡拉莫的这一年似乎是失败的一年。

The party stopped doing most of the basic normal stuff any political party has to do.

该党停止做任何政党必须做的大部分基本正常事情。

And they're limping as they go into this major presidential election year.

当他们进入这个重要的总统选举年时，他们一瘸一拐。

And Jon was like, no. Don't write your story like it was a waste.

乔恩说，不。不要把你的故事写得像浪费一样。

It wasn't a waste.

这不是浪费。

Things are going to continue to be different now.

现在情况将继续有所不同。

We did something.

我们做了一些事情。

We changed the party.

我们改变了政党。

We put a non-billionaire in charge here.

我们让一位非亿万富翁负责这里。

This is just a first step.

这只是第一步。

Maybe a misstep, but we're not going to just disappear.

也许是一个失误，但我们不会就这么消失。

["IT LOOKS LIKE THE PARTY IS OVER," BY JOHN ANDERSON]

[“看起来派对已经结束了”，作者：约翰·安德森]

Well, our program was edited today by Laura Starecheski, produced by Chris Benderev, with help from James Bennett the Second.

今天我们的节目由劳拉·斯塔莱切斯基 (Laura Starecheski) 编辑，克里斯·本德列夫 (Chris Benderev) 制作，詹姆斯·贝内特二世 (James Bennett the Second) 帮助。

The people who put together today's show include Phia Bennin, Michael Comite, Bethel Habte, Cassie Hawley, Valerie Kipnis, Seth Lind, Stowe Nelson, Katherine Rae Mondo, Nadia Reiman, Ryan Rumery, Alyssa Shipp, Ike Sriskandarajah, Christopher Swetala, Marisa Robertson-Textor, Nancy Updike, and Diane Wu.

今天节目的制作人包括 Phia Bennin、Michael Comite、Bethel Habte、Cassie Hawley、Valerie Kipnis、Seth Lind、Stowe Nelson、Katherine Rae Mondo、Nadia Reiman、Ryan Rumery、Alyssa Shipp、Ike Sriskandarajah、Christopher Swetala、Marisa Robertson-Textor、Nancy Updike 和 Diane Wu。

Our managing editor is Sarah Abdurrahman.

我们的总编辑是萨拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sarah Abdurrahman)。

Our senior editor is David Kestenbaum.

我们的高级编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。

Our executive editor is Emanuele Berry.

我们的执行编辑是 Emanuele Berry。

Special thanks today to Isaac Arnsdorf, Kelefa Sanneh, Craig Mauger, Jonathan Oosting, Simon Schuster, Laura Gibbons, Carrie Levine, Jason Roe, Jamie Roe, Zoe Clarke, Colin Jackson, Tyler Scott, Dustin Dwyer, Todd Gillman, Lance Lashaway, Kelly Sackett, Rola Makki, Jonathan Chapman, and Lori Skibo.

今天特别感谢 Isaac Arnsdorf、Kelefa Sanneh、Craig Mauger、Jonathan Oosting、Simon Schuster、Laura Gibbons、Carrie Levine、Jason Roe、Jamie Roe、Zoe Clarke、Colin Jackson、Tyler Scott、Dustin Dwyer、Todd Gillman、Lance Lashaway、Kelly Sackett、Rola Makki、Jonathan Chapman 和 Lori Skibo。

Our website-- thisamericanlife.org, where you can stream our archive of over 800 episodes for absolutely free.

我们的网站 -- thisamericanlife.org，您可以在这里免费观看我们的 800 多集档案。

This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.

《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。

Thanks, as always, to our program's confounder, Mr. Torey Malatia.

一如既往地感谢我们计划的混杂者 Torey Malatia 先生。

You know, I invited him to Hanukkah this year.

你知道，我今年邀请他来光明节。

I don't know.

我不知道。

I think it's the last time.

我想这是最后一次了。

He lit the candles.

他点燃了蜡烛。

He's great at the dreidel game.

他非常擅长陀螺游戏。

But he just kept saying the same thing over and over.

但他只是一遍又一遍地说同样的话。

Do you take Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior?

你接受耶稣基督为你的主和救主吗？

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Back next week with more stories of This American Life.

下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。

["IT LOOKS LIKE THE PARTY IS OVER," BY JOHN ANDERSON]

[“看起来派对已经结束了”，作者：约翰·安德森]

This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.

《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。