813: Is That What I Look Like? - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #813 | November 3, 2023 813: Is That What I Look Like?
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 813 集 | 2023 年 11 月 3 日 813：这就是我的样子吗？
Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Nancy Updike From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
序言：序言 来自 WBEZ 芝加哥的 Nancy Updike，这就是《美国生活》。
I'm Nancy Updike filling in for Ira Glass.
我是南希·厄普代克（Nancy Updike），接替艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）。
Today's show is a rerun, a good one, and I'm going to start with this story that I want to share.
今天的节目是重播，非常棒，我将从我想分享的这个故事开始。
It's a little personal.
这有点个人化。
I was at MAC, the makeup store, not the computer store.
我在MAC，化妆品店，而不是电脑店。
And I was buying foundation, which I almost never wear.
我买了粉底，但我几乎从不穿。
It's the makeup you put all over your face to give yourself the pretend perfect skin.
这是你在脸上涂上的化妆品，让自己拥有假装完美的皮肤。
And I asked the salesman for help finding the right color.
我请推销员帮忙找到合适的颜色。
And he looked at me, and he said-- almost like he was thinking out loud-- he said, your neck, it's so much more yellow than your face.
他看着我，然后说——几乎就像他在大声思考——他说，你的脖子，比你的脸黄得多。
And then he turned away to start looking for the impossible color that would solve this problem of the yellow right next to the so-much-more-yellow.
然后他转过身去开始寻找一种不可能的颜色来解决黄色与更黄色相邻的问题。
And if you're thinking, oh, this was just a sales technique to invent a problem and then offer to fix it with more products, I wish that had been the case.
如果你在想，哦，这只是一种销售技巧，发明一个问题，然后提出用更多产品来解决它，我希望情况确实如此。
But this was not an upsell.
但这并不是追加销售。
This was a cri de coeur.
这是一次强烈的呐喊。
The man really just seemed to be expressing his frustration at this stumper of my mismatched face and neck.
这个男人似乎真的只是在表达他对我不协调的脸和脖子的沮丧。
This sort of out-of-the-blue, perfectly sharpened comment stops you cold, because it's not an insult.
这种出乎意料、尖锐的评论会让你感到冷漠，因为这不是侮辱。
It's an observation that is true.
这是一个真实的观察。
You just hadn't thought of it before.
只是你之前没有想到而已。
It's shocking, because you think, I know myself.
这很令人震惊，因为你认为，我了解我自己。
I know what I've got, what I haven't got.
我知道我拥有什么，没有什么。
No one's going to spot something about me that I haven't already seen.
没有人会发现我身上一些我还没见过的东西。
Not true.
不正确。
You can be among friends, doing something you love, feeling great.
你可以和朋友在一起，做你喜欢的事情，感觉很棒。
We were backstage, getting ready to go on, preparing.
我们在后台，准备继续，准备着。
This is Dee Watson.
这是迪·沃森。
She was in a play a while back.
不久前她还在演戏。
And it was all Black women.
而且都是黑人女性。
We were all-- some of us or most of us were a little bit bigger than the average, you know.
我们所有人——我们中的一些人或大多数人都比平均水平稍大一些，你知道。
And it was a supportive atmosphere.
这是一种支持性的氛围。
And the subject of big behinds came up.
大屁股的话题就出现了。
And me having one, I know all about it.
我也有一个，我知道这一切。
And one of the younger cast members-- she was about 25-- said, my mother thought your butt was so big, it had to be a prop.
一位年轻的演员——大约 25 岁——说，我妈妈觉得你的屁股这么大，一定是个道具。
Oh, my god.
我的天啊。
Dee Watson And at that moment, I didn't hear anything else anybody said.
迪伊·沃森（Dee Watson）：在那一刻，我没有听到任何人说任何话。
I just was-- that was echoing through my head.
我只是——这在我脑海中回响。
And I could hear everybody laughing, and oh, my gosh, that's so funny.
我能听到每个人都在笑，哦，天哪，这太有趣了。
And I'm standing there, about-- I wanted to cry.
我站在那里，我想哭。
I really wanted to cry.
我真的很想哭。
And I really don't think this young girl really meant to hurt me.
我真的不认为这个年轻女孩真的想伤害我。
Well, and maybe it's like, we're all women, and so--
好吧，也许我们都是女人，所以——
Yeah.
是的。
Nancy Updike --you know, it's safe here to say anything.
南希·厄普代克——你知道，在这里说任何话都是安全的。
Yeah.
是的。
I think she thought I would think that was funny.
我想她以为我会觉得这很有趣。
And I did not.
但我没有。
These are not statements that a human being forgets.
这些不是人类会忘记的陈述。
The moment you hear the observation, it becomes part of how you see yourself, seemingly forever.
当你听到这个观察的那一刻，它就成为你如何看待自己的一部分，似乎永远如此。
Even something tiny, if it hits you right, can turn into this chirpy little voicemail that your brain is never able to erase.
即使是一些微小的东西，如果它击中了你，也可以变成你的大脑永远无法抹去的欢快的小语音邮件。
And it doesn't have to be about looks.
而且它不一定是关于外观。
It can be a comment on how you run or laugh or drive, how much money you make, or what books you've read or haven't read-- any outside assessment of you that you never saw coming and could not shake once it was uttered.
它可以是关于你如何跑步、大笑或开车的评论，你赚了多少钱，或者你读过或没读过哪些书——任何你从未见过的、一旦说出来就无法动摇的外界对你的评价。
One of our former producers, Jane Feltes-- she's actually now Jane Marie-- years ago, dated a man who she later decided was a jerk.
我们的一位前制片人简·菲尔特斯（Jane Feltes）——她实际上现在是简·玛丽（Jane Marie）——几年前，和一个男人约会过，后来她发现这个男人是个混蛋。
He wanted to make her feel insecure.
他想让她没有安全感。
But one night, they were watching TV, and her feet were sticking up out of the blanket.
但有一天晚上，他们正在看电视，她的脚从毯子里伸出来。
And he turned to me, and he said, oh, you have juice box toes.
他转向我，说，哦，你有果汁盒脚趾。
And I was like, what?
我当时想，什么？
And he said, yeah, like Fred Flintstone feet.
他说，是的，就像弗莱德·燧石的脚。
He's a caveman, literally, a caveman-- a cartoon of a cave-- a chubby, squat, cartoon of a caveman.
他是一个穴居人，从字面上看，一个穴居人——一个洞穴的卡通——一个胖乎乎、矮胖的穴居人的卡通。
And I know it sounds so stupid, because who cares what shape my toes are?
我知道这听起来很愚蠢，因为谁在乎我的脚趾是什么形状？
But you do want the person that you're in love with to just think that every part of you is amazing and beautiful, or shut up about it.
但你确实希望你所爱的人只是认为你的每一部分都是令人惊叹和美丽的，或者对此闭嘴。
Or shut up about it.
或者闭嘴。
Maybe they're ugly.
也许他们很丑。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Now that I'm looking at them, I don't know.
现在我看着他们，我不知道。
My big toe is definitely square.
我的大脚趾肯定是方形的。
When I get shy kids, one of the things I do with them is I try to give them permission to make fun of me.
当我遇到害羞的孩子时，我对他们做的一件事就是尝试允许他们取笑我。
This is a fifth-grade teacher named Matthew Dicks, who is either the bravest or the most foolhardy man in America.
这是一位名叫马修·迪克斯的五年级老师，他要么是美国最勇敢的人，要么是最鲁莽的人。
And they often come out of their shells by becoming the person who can taunt the teacher.
他们常常会走出自己的外壳，成为可以嘲笑老师的人。
That sounds very dangerous.
这听起来很危险。
Matthew Dicks No. (LAUGHING) It is.
马修·迪克斯 不。（笑）是的。
I mean, you have to teach them where the line is.
我的意思是，你必须告诉他们底线在哪里。
And sometimes I don't know where the line is either, so.
有时我也不知道界限在哪里，所以。
A few years ago, there was a girl in his class-- very shy.
几年前，他班上有一个女孩——非常害羞。
And she got the nod that it was OK for her to make fun of Matthew if she wanted.
她得到了点头，如果她愿意的话，可以取笑马修。
So one day, she came in, and she just walked in very casually, and she looked at me, and she said, Hi, Jerry.
所以有一天，她进来了，她只是非常随意地走进来，她看着我，然后说，嗨，杰瑞。
And I looked at her, and I said, Jerry?
我看着她，我说，杰瑞？
And she said, never mind, and she just walked away.
她说，没关系，然后就走开了。
And I knew she was setting me up for some joke.
我知道她是在陷害我开什么玩笑。
And it went on for days.
这种情况持续了好几天。
She would-- just every time she'd walk by me, she'd say, hey, Jerry.
她会——每次她走过我身边时，她都会说，嘿，杰瑞。
How's it going?
怎么样了？
And so finally, after about a week, I couldn't take it anymore.
最后，大约一周后，我再也无法忍受了。
And she came in one morning, and she said, how you doing, Jerry?
一天早上她来了，她说，杰瑞，你好吗？
And I said, fine.
我说，好吧。
Who is Jerry?
杰瑞是谁？
And she said, Jerry is your bald spot.
她说，杰瑞是你的秃头。
Yikes.
哎呀。
Matthew Dicks And I tried to play it off like, I don't have a bald spot.
马修·迪克斯：我试着假装自己没有秃头。
Go sit down.
快去坐下吧。
Give me a break.
让我休息一下。
Ha, ha.
哈，哈。
That was, like, the most ridiculous week-long joke I've ever heard in my life.
这就像是我一生中听过的最荒谬的长达一周的笑话。
But as soon as my kids left the room to go to gym, I ran to the bathroom, and I leaned over the sink.
但当我的孩子们离开房间去健身房时，我就跑到浴室，靠在水槽上。
And at the very top of my head, I had a bald spot that I had no idea about.
在我的头顶上，有一个我不知道的秃点。
Hey, can I ask a logistical question?
嘿，我可以问一个后勤问题吗？
How does a fifth-grader spot the top of your head?
五年级学生如何识别你的头顶？
Oh, so in my classroom, I teach Shakespeare to my students.
哦，所以在我的教室里，我教我的学生莎士比亚。
And we have a stage in my classroom.
我的教室里有一个舞台。
I've built a stage with, like, curtains and lighting and everything.
我搭建了一个舞台，里面有窗帘、灯光等等。
So if you're standing on my stage in my classroom, you can look down on me.
所以如果你站在我教室里的讲台上，你就可以看不起我。
Now, you can say that Matthew brought this on himself.
现在，你可以说这是马太自找的。
He gives some students permission to make fun of him, and he built a stage where students can peer down at him in judgment.
他允许一些学生取笑他，他还搭建了一个舞台，让学生们可以俯视他并做出评判。
But even if he did none of that, he's still a sitting duck for this exact kind of critical gaze.
但即使他什么也没做，他仍然是这种批评目光的靶子。
You have 20 people-- you have 20 students, did you say?
你有 20 个人——你有 20 个学生，你是说吗？
Yeah, it's between 20 and 30 every year.
是的，每年20到30之间。
OK, so between 20 and 30 people looking at you all day, every work day, and just taking stock of you.
好吧，每个工作日都有 20 到 30 个人整天看着你，只是对你进行评估。
Yes, it's constant.
是的，它是恒定的。
I had pink eye a couple of weeks ago.
几周前我得了红眼病。
The kids knew I had pink eye before I did.
孩子们比我先知道我得了红眼病。
Because they just stare at you all day, and they see any sort of minute change in you.
因为他们整天盯着你，他们看到你的任何微小变化。
You know, you're really the only thing they look at for a great majority of the day.
你知道，他们一天中大部分时间里唯一关注的就是你。
So they notice these little things.
所以他们注意到这些小事情。
If I get a new shirt, they immediately notice.
如果我买了一件新衬衫，他们会立即注意到。
Everything that changes about me, they notice right away.
我的一切变化，他们都会立即注意到。
Today on the radio show, I, Nancy "Yellow Neck" Updike, bring you stories about people facing the unexpected moment of realizing how other people see them, what that means, and what in God's name to do about it.
今天在广播节目中，我，“黄脖子”南希·厄普代克，为大家带来一些故事，讲述人们面临意想不到的时刻，意识到别人如何看待他们，这意味着什么，以及以上帝的名义该怎么做。
Today's show-- "Is That What I Look Like"?
今天的节目——《我就是这样的吗》？
Prepare to learn the truth.
准备好了解真相。
Plus, a special guest appearance that will surprise and delight you.
此外，还有一位特别嘉宾的亮相，一定会给您带来惊喜和喜悦。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, Blunt Force.
第一幕，钝力。
Domingo Martinez has this story about a vision in Brownsville, Texas.
多明戈·马丁内斯讲述了德克萨斯州布朗斯维尔的一个愿景的故事。
Here's Domingo.
这是多明戈。
When I was 16, I realized, as far as my family went, school was considered my time, which meant I couldn't be pressed into labor by my father or grandmother.
当我16岁时，我意识到，就我的家庭而言，学校被认为是我的时间，这意味着我不能被父亲或祖母强迫分娩。
They were farm workers, and they made no claim on my time when I was supposed to be in school.
他们是农场工人，当我应该上学时，他们没有占用我的时间。
So I learned to take advantage of this.
所以我学会了利用这一点。
I'd make it to school before 7:30 AM, either by school bus or my mother's Taurus, and then wait out options for escape.
我会在早上 7:30 之前赶到学校，要么乘坐校车，要么乘坐我母亲的 Taurus，然后等待逃跑的选择。
By my sophomore year, this kid named Tony Garcia had become my primary friend.
到了我大二的时候，这个名叫托尼·加西亚的孩子已经成为我最好的朋友。
Tony was nearly 19 and only a junior.
托尼快 19 岁了，还只是一名三年级学生。
But he didn't seem all that bad, because he had good parents and an even better little brother who was about to lap him at graduation.
但他看起来并没有那么糟糕，因为他有很好的父母，还有一个更优秀的弟弟，毕业时就要圈他一圈。
Together, Tony and I would find ways to while away the hours by doing anything other than attending class before we had to report home again.
在必须再次回家报到之前，托尼和我会一起想办法通过做除上课以外的任何事情来消磨时间。
We were big fans of Huckleberry Finn and Tom Sawyer, and we believed we were continuing a long-celebrated American tradition by ditching class and getting stoned-- a fantasy combination of Mark Twain and Hunter S.
我们是《哈克贝利·费恩历险记》和《汤姆·索亚历险记》的忠实粉丝，我们相信，我们正在继续一项久负盛名的美国传统，即抛弃阶级、嗑药——这是马克·吐温和亨特·S·的奇幻组合。
Thompson.
汤普森.
But really, we were just lazy and looking for a good time.
但实际上，我们只是懒惰并寻找美好时光。
The skipping itself was not a problem.
跳过本身并不是问题。
The problem was taking care of our grades and absences on our report cards before they reached our parents.
问题是在我们的成绩单上记录我们的成绩和缺勤情况，然后再送到我们的父母那里。
And it was actually Tony who initiated me into the trade that I eventually pursued-- graphic design.
实际上是托尼引导我进入了我最终从事的行业——平面设计。
But in this early stage, in high school, it was plain and simple forgery.
但在高中的早期阶段，这只是简单的伪造。
There was no design in what we were doing.
我们所做的事情没有任何设计。
It was Tony who placed the first X-Acto knife I ever held in my hands.
托尼将我手中的第一把 X-Acto 刀放在了我的手中。
And immediately, I felt an overwhelming sense of possibility, holding that little penknife.
立刻，我握着那把小小刀，感受到了一种压倒性的可能性。
We'd intercept the report cards when they came in the mail.
当成绩单邮寄过来时，我们会截取它们。
And then, Tony took careful pains to explain this whole process to me, his flunky-- a term that came uncomfortably close to becoming literal-- over the photocopier in the library, feeding dimes into the machine like he was playing slots, in search of a copy that didn't blur or show the incisions in the original.
然后，托尼在图书馆的复印机上煞费苦心地向我解释整个过程，他的跟班——这个词令人不舒服地接近字面意思——像玩老虎机一样把一毛钱塞进机器里，寻找一份不会模糊或显示原件切口的副本。
Look, man, he said through his trendy and tinted John Lennon glasses-- a wanker style even then.
瞧，伙计，他戴着那副时髦的有色约翰·列侬眼镜说道——即使在当时也是一种混蛋风格。
You just got to remove the 2 from the 23 absences and then lighten the reproduction, and now you got 3 absences in first period, instead of 23.
你只需从 23 场缺席中去掉 2 场，然后减轻复制，现在你在第一节缺席 3 场，而不是 23 场。
Now take the 8 from the 48, move the 4 over, and put the 8 in front of that.
现在从 48 中取出 8，将 4 移过去，然后将 8 放在 48 的前面。
And now you have a B in Spanish instead of an F.
现在你的西班牙语成绩是 B，而不是 F。
Oh, I said, in total understanding, a big smile growing on my face.
哦，我完全理解了，脸上露出灿烂的笑容。
Give a man a ride, he skips for a day.
给一个人一程，他会跳过一天。
Teach him how to forge-- it was ridiculously short-sighted, sure.
教他如何锻造——这确实是短视得可笑。
But at that age, I never thought further than the immediate threat.
但在那个年纪，我除了眼前的威胁之外从未考虑过更多事情。
Simply convincing my mother everything was quiet at school was enough for me.
对我来说，只要让妈妈相信学校里一切都很安静就足够了。
Dealing with school records and the larger consequences of robbing myself of even a substandard education-- all that, I would face at a later date, and certainly have.
处理学校记录以及剥夺自己甚至不合格教育的更大后果——所有这些，我以后都会面对，而且肯定会遇到。
Tony would usually borrow his mother's car for our expeditions-- a blue Oldsmobile Delta 88.
托尼通常会借他母亲的车来参加我们的探险——一辆蓝色的奥兹莫比尔 Delta 88。
We'd leave school and drive to South Padre Island, a resort town at the end of a 28-mile highway that felt much more cosmopolitan than Brownsville, Texas, ever could.
我们离开学校，开车前往南帕德里岛，这是一个位于 28 英里高速公路尽头的度假小镇，感觉比德克萨斯州布朗斯维尔更加国际化。
We did that drive back and forth, three or four times a day, listening to Led Zeppelin, nodding our heads in unison with whomever else was stoned or drunk in the car.
我们每天开车来回三四次，听着齐柏林飞艇的音乐，与车里吸毒或喝醉的其他人一致点头。
My junior year and his senior year, Tony's parents bought him a Dodge Daytona.
我大三和大四的时候，托尼的父母给他买了一辆道奇代托纳。
It was the year he would most assuredly graduate, they felt, and it was a chance for him to develop responsibility.
他们认为，这是他最有把握毕业的一年，也是他培养责任感的机会。
In the mornings, the minute my mother would drop me off at school and disappear around the corner, Tony would drive around and park right in front of the school to pick me up, right in front of everybody.
早上，当我妈妈送我去学校并消失在拐角处时，托尼就会开车兜风，把车停在学校前面来接我，就在所有人面前。
Dude, you got to come skipping with me today, he'd say.
伙计，你今天一定要跟我一起去跳绳，他会说。
But on one particular morning, late in 1988, I balk.
但在 1988 年末的一个特定早晨，我犹豫了。
Nah, Tony, I got to go back to class today, I protest.
不，托尼，我今天必须回去上课，我抗议。
It's Thursday, and I haven't been since last week.
今天是星期四，自从上周以来我就没有去过。
Look, he says, I got two signed reentry slips.
他说，你看，我有两张签名的返回单。
I can get you back in tomorrow or next week.
我可以让你明天或下周回来。
It's not a problem.
这不是问题。
And I found a new place to get killer weed.
我还找到了一个可以获取致命杂草的新地方。
Finding pot was always a problem.
寻找锅一直是个问题。
So when Tony said he found someone new, and it wasn't one of the morons who hung out by the tennis courts before school, I was intrigued.
所以当托尼说他找到了一个新朋友，而且不是放学前在网球场闲逛的白痴时，我很好奇。
We first drive to a housing project east of school, where a woman sold $2 quarts of Budweiser out of her living room from a cooler to anyone with money, no questions asked.
我们首先驱车前往学校东边的一个住房项目，在那里，一位女士从她客厅的冷藏柜里把价值 2 美元的百威啤酒卖给任何有钱的人，不问任何问题。
We buy a couple of quarts and smoke the last half-joint Tony has on the way to his new killer weed supplier.
我们买了几夸脱，抽了托尼在去他新的杀手杂草供应商的路上剩下的最后半支烟。
I was getting a bit high when I began to recognize the route he was taking, and was then thoroughly taken aback when he drove right into my grandmother's driveway.
当我开始认出他走的路线时，我有点兴奋，当他直接开进我祖母的车道时，我彻底吃了一惊。
I couldn't understand why.
我不明白为什么。
It just didn't make sense.
这根本没有道理。
This was the same driveway my family Pontiac would regularly pull into after church on Sundays when I was growing up in the late 1970s-- my mother's mother's house in downtown Brownsville.
当我在 20 世纪 70 年代末长大时，我家的庞蒂亚克 (Pontiac) 周日做完礼拜后经常把车停在这条车道上——我母亲的母亲在布朗斯维尔市中心的房子。
I was, I think the term is, "unnerved." My two uncles, Johnny and Abel, were working on a '79 Camaro when Tony drives up and parks hood to hood with their car.
我想，我觉得这个词应该是“感到不安”。我的两个叔叔，约翰尼和阿贝尔，正在修理一辆 79 款科迈罗，这时托尼开车过来，把他们的车停在了车上。
The hood was up, and they were both leaning into the guts of the engine.
引擎盖升起，他们都靠在发动机的内部。
Their heads popped up like bearded biker prairie dogs.
他们的头像长着胡须、骑自行车的草原土拨鼠一样伸出来。
I sat frozen in the passenger seat, uncertain what to do next.
我坐在副驾驶座上，一动不动，不知道下一步该做什么。
Tony, noticing that I was startled, tells me to be cool, to chill out.
托尼注意到我很吃惊，就告诉我要冷静，冷静下来。
These guys look mean, but they're all right.
这些人看上去很卑鄙，但他们都很好。
Anyways, he says as he's getting out of the driver's side, they're kind of dumb.
无论如何，当他离开驾驶员一侧时，他说，他们有点傻。
But they got great weed.
但他们得到了很好的杂草。
Didn't I know it.
难道我不知道吗。
Abel and Johnny had a long history with local biker gangs, even a rumored affiliation with the Hell's Angels.
亚伯和约翰尼与当地的摩托党帮派有着悠久的历史，甚至有传言称他们与地狱天使有联系。
They could get drugs nobody else could in this town.
他们可以获得这个镇上其他人无法获得的毒品。
And as a result, they were total burnouts, hardly capable of cogent speech patterns in either English or Spanish.
结果，他们完全精疲力尽，几乎无法用英语或西班牙语进行令人信服的演讲模式。
They landed in jail as often as other people attended church.
他们入狱的次数与其他人去教堂的次数一样多。
But what they lacked in brains, they certainly made up in brawn.
但他们在头脑上的不足，肯定是在体力上弥补的。
Not that they'd tear apart a teenager like Tony or me, not in the daylight, anyway.
并不是说他们会撕碎像托尼或我这样的青少年，至少不会在光天化日之下。
They had a code about that sort of thing.
他们有关于此类事情的守则。
But if they felt cheated, they'd have taken a tire iron to my head long before they recognized me as their nephew.
但如果他们觉得自己被骗了，早在他们认出我是他们的侄子之前，他们就会用轮胎熨斗敲打我的头。
They were that burned out.
他们已经精疲力竭了。
So I sit there, paralyzed, in the front seat, side B of Houses of the Holy playing on Tony's cassette deck.
于是，我坐在前排座位上，瘫痪了，在《Houses of the Holy》的 B 侧，在托尼的录音机上播放着音乐。
And because it's hot, the AC is blasting.
因为天气很热，空调开得很大。
So once Tony closes the door, I can't hear anything.
所以一旦托尼关上门，我就听不到任何声音。
I just watch as this terrifying pantomime plays out before me.
我只是看着这可怕的哑剧在我面前上演。
Tony, half-shaven in his preppy clothes, closes the door and hails his greeting.
托尼穿着学院风的衣服，刮了一半胡子，关上门，向他打招呼。
My uncle Abel, already brain-dead from years of sniffing paint, narrows his eyes in suspicion, and then noiselessly responds with a nodding, hey.
我叔叔亚伯因长年吸油漆而已经脑死亡，他怀疑地眯起眼睛，然后无声无息地点点头回应，嘿。
Tony averts eye contact, looking anywhere but directly at Abel, for fear that Abel might charge like a gorilla.
托尼避免目光接触，看向任何地方，但不直视亚伯，因为担心亚伯会像大猩猩一样冲锋。
Abel gives him a suspicious quick upward jut of the chin that says, did I sell to you before?
亚伯可疑地快速向上抬起下巴，说道，我以前卖给过你吗？
Who told you I got weed?
谁告诉你我有大麻了？
Tony lowers his head in quiet confidence, talking to Abel.
托尼自信地低下头，与亚伯交谈。
Then my uncle Johnny nods towards me in the car, says something to Tony.
然后我叔叔约翰尼在车里向我点点头，对托尼说了些什么。
They all turn to look at me.
他们都转头看着我。
My eyes go wide, a big smile on my face, nodding.
我睁大眼睛，脸上露出灿烂的笑容，点点头。
Tony says something, and then they all laugh together.
托尼说了些什么，然后他们一起笑了。
Led Zeppelin still plays loudly in the car.
车里仍然大声播放着齐柏林飞艇的音乐。
Then, my uncle Abel slaps Tony on the back and leads him around to the back of the car, right where I am.
然后，我叔叔亚伯拍了拍托尼的背，带他绕到车后部，就在我所在的地方。
Johnny stands there, too, looking at me and smiling, makes his index finger and thumb into a mock roach, and laughs.
约翰尼也站在那里，微笑着看着我，把他的食指和拇指做出了模仿蟑螂的样子，然后笑了起来。
I mimic the roach back.
我模仿蟑螂的背影。
Even now, he doesn't recognize me.
即使现在，他也不认识我。
Then, Tony and Abel emerge around the other side of the car with Tony's hand in his pocket, and both of them are laughing like they're suddenly old friends.
然后，托尼和阿贝尔出现在车的另一边，托尼的手插在口袋里，他们俩都笑着，就像突然成为了老朋友一样。
Tony turns and waves, and both Johnny and Abel wave back.
托尼转身挥手，约翰尼和亚伯也向他挥手。
The door opens, and Tony says, dude, we got a big joint for 2 bucks, as he gets in the driver's seat.
门打开了，托尼坐进驾驶座时说，伙计，我们花了 2 美元买了一大块大麻烟。
This has freaked me out to no end.
这让我吓坏了。
Abel and Johnny are both waving, making the universal roach smoking signal as we drive off.
当我们开车离开时，亚伯和约翰尼都在挥手，发出普遍的蟑螂吸烟信号。
And it leaves me feeling really, really conflicted.
这让我感到非常非常矛盾。
The car slips up the southernmost terminus of Highway 77, and we head north from urban Brownsville to drive around as we smoke the joint.
汽车在 77 号高速公路最南端的终点站滑行，我们从布朗斯维尔市区向北行驶，边抽大麻边开车。
Tony lights it, and it starts burning purple.
托尼点燃它，它开始燃烧紫色。
Purple haze, he says, and then follows it with his characteristic, aah!
紫雾，他说，然后按照他的特点，啊！
Hey, man, I say, I'm kind of scared about smoking this.
嘿，伙计，我说，我有点害怕抽烟。
I've never seen one burn this color.
我从来没有见过有人烧出这种颜色。
Aw, dude, says Tony, don't worry about it.
哦，伙计，托尼说，别担心。
Those guys got killer weed, man.
那些家伙有致命的大麻，伙计。
They're like bikers or something.
他们就像骑自行车的人什么的。
It's probably laced with something.
大概是夹杂着什么东西吧。
That's why it was 2 bucks.
这就是为什么它是2块钱。
This idea sounds appealing to Tony.
这个想法听起来对托尼很有吸引力。
It scares the shit out of me.
它把我吓坏了。
We're both getting incredibly high.
我们都变得非常高。
Hey, man, says Tony, wouldn't it be messed up if, like, when you were high, your hair went into a huge orange Afro, and the higher you were, the bigger your Afro got?
嘿，伙计，托尼说，如果，就像，当你嗨的时候，你的头发变成一个巨大的橙色爆炸头，而你越高，你的爆炸头就越大，那不是很混乱吗？
You couldn't go anywhere, because people would be like, man, that guy's stoned.
你哪儿也去不了，因为人们会说，伙计，那家伙喝醉了。
I sit there in Tony's car and think about my uncles Johnny and Abel.
我坐在托尼的车里，想着我的叔叔约翰尼和亚伯。
Johnny had been stabbed in the back with a flatheaded screwdriver about a month earlier in a street fight.
大约一个月前，约翰尼在一场街头斗殴中被平头螺丝刀从背后刺伤。
His lung had been punctured, and my grandmother said you could hear whistling every time he inhaled.
他的肺部被刺穿了，我祖母说他每次吸气时你都能听到口哨声。
He wouldn't go to the hospital to get it treated for three days.
他已经三天没有去医院治疗了。
We're halfway done with the joint when I say to Tony, hey, man, I don't want to get stoned anymore.
当我对托尼说时，我们已经完成了一半，嘿，伙计，我不想再吸毒了。
All right, well, put it out, Tony says, nodding his head back and forth to Zeppelin.
好吧，好吧，把它灭了，托尼说，向齐柏林飞艇来回点头。
Tony's left hand is fingering chords into the neck of an imaginary guitar as he's driving.
托尼一边开车，一边用左手在想象中的吉他琴颈上弹奏和弦。
I watch his fingers move for a few seconds, suspended and twisting around like they're an overturned king crab.
我观察了他的手指移动了几秒钟，悬浮并扭转，就像一只翻倒的帝王蟹。
And I can find no correlation with the chords in the song.
而且我找不到与歌曲中的和弦有任何关联。
Man, I mean, I don't want to smoke pot anymore, I say to him.
伙计，我的意思是，我不想再吸大麻了，我对他说。
I don't want to skip class anymore.
我不想再逃课了。
I want to get back to school.
我想回到学校。
Not today, but, like, in general.
不是今天，而是一般情况下。
I don't want to feel like this anymore, like I'm doing something bad.
我不想再有这样的感觉了，就像我在做坏事一样。
I feel like this all the time now.
我现在一直有这样的感觉。
Dirty.
肮脏的。
Look at that really [BLEEP] small house over there.
看看那边那个真的[哔]的小房子。
We were on an overpass, and I just noticed a house beneath us in the Brownsville country club, about a 1/4 of the size of the houses surrounding it.
我们在立交桥上，我刚刚注意到我们下面布朗斯维尔乡村俱乐部的一座房子，大约是周围房子大小的 1/4。
Tony starts laughing so hard, I have to make him focus back on the driving.
托尼开始笑得很厉害，我必须让他重新集中精力开车。
But then, I laugh along with him.
但后来我就跟着他一起笑了。
You're stoned, he tells me.
你已经醉了，他告诉我。
Yeah, I say, I'm way stoned.
是的，我说，我已经醉了。
Hey, man, I say a little later.
嘿，伙计，我稍后再说。
We're driving back to South Padre Island now.
我们现在正开车返回南帕诸岛。
You know those guys we bought weed from earlier today?
你认识我们今天早些时候买大麻的那些人吗？
The bikers?
骑自行车的人？
Tony says.
托尼说。
That was my grandmother's house, man.
那是我祖母的房子，伙计。
Those were my uncles, I say, even though I'm really embarrassed by it.
我说，那些是我的叔叔，尽管我对此感到非常尴尬。
Tony finds this befuddling.
托尼觉得这令人困惑。
He can't figure out what the bikers were doing at my grandmother's house.
他不明白那些骑自行车的人在我祖母家里做什么。
Those dudes were my mom's brothers, man, my uncles, I explain.
我解释说，那些家伙是我妈妈的兄弟，伙计，我的叔叔。
Tony is laughing so hard, he has to pull over to the side of the road.
托尼笑得太厉害了，他不得不把车停到路边。
His laughing is infectious, and I find myself laughing right along with him, laughing harder than I have laughed in a really, really long time.
他的笑很有感染力，我发现自己也跟着他一起笑，笑得比我很长一段时间都笑得更厉害。
But I'm feeling utterly beyond redemption on the inside, like I'd just done something today that I couldn't take back, like my course was now set.
但我内心感到完全无法救赎，就像我今天刚刚做了一些我无法收回的事情，就像我的路线现在已经确定一样。
Domingo Martinez, reading a story from his memoir, The Boy Kings of Texas.
多明戈·马丁内斯正在阅读他的回忆录《德克萨斯男孩国王》中的故事。
Act Two, Not My First Time at the Rodeo.
第二幕，不是我第一次参加牛仔竞技表演。
Parents and children are lifelong mirrors for each other.
父母和孩子是彼此一生的镜子。
How do you see me?
你怎么看我？
How do I see myself through my relationship with you?
我如何通过与你的关系来看待自己？
Even when you're not face to face with one of your parents, there are conversations between you that play back in your head your whole life-- what they said, what you said.
即使你没有与父母中的一位面对面，你们之间的对话也会在你的脑海中回放一生——他们说了什么，你说了什么。
Sometimes you repeat those conversations to explain to someone else or to yourself who you are or who your parents are.
有时你会重复这些对话，向别人或自己解释你是谁或你的父母是谁。
But what if you could rehear the actual dialogue decades later-- not your memory of it but the words that were truly spoken between you and a parent?
但是，如果几十年后你能重听真实的对话——不是你的记忆，而是你和父母之间真正说过的话，会怎样呢？
A while back, I did a story about someone who got that exact chance.
不久前，我写了一个关于某人得到这个机会的故事。
Bill Lahey was in his early 20s and on the phone with his father in 1978 when he heard a faint pinging sound on the phone.
1978 年，比尔·莱希 (Bill Lahey) 20 岁出头，正在和父亲通电话，这时他听到电话里传来微弱的“叮”的一声。
He mentioned it, and his father said--
他提到这件事，他父亲说——
When did that start?
那是从什么时候开始的？
Bill Lahey It's been there all along.
Bill Lahey 它一直都在那里。
Must be my bad ear.
一定是我耳朵坏了。
Bill Lahey Just a ping, like, every five seconds.
Bill Lahey 每五秒就发出一次 ping 信号。
Monitored or something?
被监控还是什么？
Bill's Father Huh?
比尔的父亲啊？
(CHUCKLING) Yeah.
（笑）是的。
Sometimes I wonder if this phone is tapped.
有时我想知道这部手机是否被窃听。
Two decades later, after his father had died, Bill was at his dad's house in Ohio, cleaning out the office.
二十年后，他的父亲去世后，比尔在他父亲位于俄亥俄州的家里清理办公室。
And I opened up a file cabinet and found 30 or 40 cassette tapes with his unmistakable handwritten notations of names and dates.
我打开一个文件柜，发现了 30 或 40 盘盒式磁带，上面有他明确无误的手写姓名和日期。
And I knew instantly what they were, that he had been surreptitiously taping us.
我立刻就知道那是什么，他一直在偷偷地录我们。
Even at the time his father was recording, Bill had guessed what could be going on.
甚至在他父亲录音的时候，比尔就已经猜到会发生什么了。
It was the kind of thing his father might do.
这是他父亲可能会做的事情。
And he did.
他做到了。
He recorded hours of calls with Bill.
他记录了与比尔的几个小时的通话。
And according to his own handwritten labels, he also taped his four other children, his wife, his mother, other relatives, his priest.
根据他自己手写的标签，他还贴上了他的其他四个孩子、他的妻子、他的母亲、其他亲戚、他的牧师。
He recorded calls at home and in the car.
他对家里和车里的电话进行了录音。
Recording test number four.
记录第四项测试。
Road noise, average to low.
道路噪音，中等偏低。
Speed, 60 miles an hour.
速度，每小时 60 英里。
From the dates on the cassettes, Bill figured they were an archive of his father, trying to get the people around him onto his side.
从录音带上的日期来看，比尔认为它们是他父亲的档案，试图让他周围的人站在他一边。
Bill's mother had left his father after 37 years of marriage.
比尔的母亲在结婚 37 年后离开了他的父亲。
Bill remembered the gist and tone of those conversations pretty well.
比尔清楚地记得那些谈话的要点和语气。
They were memorable.
他们令人难忘。
And he put off listening to the recordings of them.
他推迟了听他们的录音。
For 12 years, they sat in a black nylon duffel bag that he would move every time the family moved.
12年来，他们一直放在一个黑色尼龙行李袋里，每次全家搬家时，他都会移动这个行李袋。
This was a pile of information Bill wasn't sure he wanted, from an era of his life he knew he didn't want to relive.
这是比尔不确定自己想要的一堆信息，来自他知道自己不想重温的那个时代。
He'd sided with his mom in the divorce, even before the divorce.
在离婚时，甚至在离婚之前，他就站在他妈妈一边。
Since junior high, he'd been lobbying her to leave his dad.
从初中起，他就一直游说她离开他的父亲。
As Bill saw his father, he was smart, tenacious, and a tremendous bully with a bad, quick temper and huge blowups.
比尔看到他的父亲时，他聪明、顽强，是一个脾气暴躁、脾气暴躁、脾气暴躁的恶霸。
He got worse over time, and he was worse when he drank.
随着时间的推移，他的病情越来越严重，尤其是喝酒之后，情况更糟。
What Bill remembered from the taped conversations were long calls where his father bullied him and he fought back hard.
比尔从录音对话中记得，他的父亲欺负他，他则奋力反击。
He saw himself as his mother's advocate and protector.
他将自己视为母亲的拥护者和保护者。
I remember him trying to recruit me in his campaign to keep his marriage together.
我记得他试图招募我参加他的竞选活动，以维持他的婚姻。
And so my memory was me saying versions of, look, she doesn't want to do that anymore.
所以我的记忆是我说过这样的话，看，她不想再这样做了。
You guys have tried for a long time.
你们已经尝试了很长时间了。
Let it go.
放手吧。
(CHUCKLING) You know, some version of, face facts, it's over.
（咯咯笑）你知道，有些版本，面对事实，一切都结束了。
So you remember pushing back verbally, arguing with him.
所以你记得口头上反驳他，与他争论。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
All the time.
一直以来。
Nancy Updike After those 12 years of holding on to the tapes, Bill finally reached just about the age his father had been when he'd made the recordings.
南希·厄普代克 (Nancy Updike) 保存了这些磁带 12 年之后，比尔终于达到了他父亲录制录音时的年龄。
And suddenly, Bill wanted to hear them.
突然，比尔想听听他们的声音。
He felt ready but nervous.
他感觉自己已经准备好了，但也很紧张。
Here was raw data about what I actually did in conversations with my dad.
这是关于我在与父亲的对话中实际做了什么的原始数据。
And I just took one of the tapes with me-- has my name on it-- and went into our car in the back of our house, partially because it was the only place that had a cassette tape recorder that I knew of.
我只是随身携带了一盘磁带——上面有我的名字——然后走进了我们房子后面的车，部分原因是这是我所知道的唯一有盒式磁带录音机的地方。
And the first thing that came on was his voice, pretty aggressively questioning me about something.
首先出现的是他的声音，非常咄咄逼人地询问我一些事情。
And his voice was as clear as the day I heard it.
他的声音和我听到那天一样清晰。
So you got pretty involved there, didn't you, for somebody who didn't want to take sides?
所以你非常参与其中，不是吗，为了一个不想选边站队的人？
I certainly did.
我当然做到了。
Nancy Updike His father was talking about the fact that Bill and his four siblings all sided with their mother in the divorce, in one way or another.
南希·厄普代克（Nancy Updike）的父亲正在谈论这样一个事实：比尔和他的四个兄弟姐妹在离婚中都以某种方式站在了他们的母亲一边。
So why did you do it?
那你为什么这么做呢？
What, were you feeling sorry for your mother?
怎么，你对不起你妈妈吗？
No. Bill's Father For being oppressed?
不，比尔的父亲因为受到压迫？
You'd think she was going around in a wheelchair.
你可能会认为她是坐在轮椅上走来走去。
How would you feel, Bill?
比尔，你感觉如何？
And have that kind of a situation where, you know, the mother hen's being protected-- from who?
在这种情况下，你知道，母鸡受到保护——免受谁的侵害？
She's got everybody believing that I'm a goddamn bully.
她让每个人都相信我是个该死的恶霸。
She's so psychotic, because she's got everybody believing that I'm a bastard.
她太神经质了，因为她让每个人都相信我是个混蛋。
That's how psychotic she is.
可见她有多神经质。
How would you feel if you were me, Bill?
比尔，如果你是我，你会有什么感觉？
And I listened for, probably, two minutes.
我大概听了两分钟。
And I was like, OK.
我当时想，好吧。
(LAUGHING) That's what they are.
（笑）他们就是这样。
This is just really intense.
这实在是太激烈了。
I put-- took the tape out, went back and went into the house, told my wife about it, and didn't listen to them again for, I don't know, three or four months.
我把磁带拿出来，回到屋里，告诉了我妻子这件事，然后，我不知道，有三四个月没有再听他们说话了。
When Bill went back to listening for real, what he heard was his father pushing one main point with him, hour after hour, which was, how about you talking your mother into trying again?
当比尔回去认真听时，他听到的是父亲一小时又一小时地向他强调一个要点，那就是，你说服你母亲再试一次怎么样？
[SIGHS] Well-- just from talking to Mother over the months, um, I've seen really no sign of changing her mind or--
[叹气]嗯——从这几个月和母亲的谈话来看，嗯，我确实没有看到她改变主意的迹象，或者——
Well, has anybody really tried to, Bill, forcibly, persuasively?
那么，比尔，有没有人真的尝试过强行地、有说服力地这样做呢？
Is it fair that she doesn't try, whether she wants to or not?
不管她愿不愿意，她不去尝试公平吗？
And the answer, obviously, is, no, it isn't fair.
显然，答案是，不，这不公平。
To have to go down the drain and lose the war for a few battles without trying is, to me, absurd.
在我看来，在没有尝试的情况下就必须付诸东流并输掉战争是荒谬的。
Yeah.
是的。
Well, I guess because I see more than just a few battles.
嗯，我想是因为我看到的不仅仅是几场战斗。
All right, so there was a bunch of them.
好吧，所以有一堆。
What the hell is the difference?
到底有什么区别？
There were a lot of good times.
有很多美好的时光。
Why do you look at the black part?
为什么要看黑色的部分？
Well, Dad, because I didn't see that time that things were-- worked well.
嗯，爸爸，因为我当时没有看到事情进展顺利。
Not-- I mean, maybe when I was very young.
不——我的意思是，也许在我很小的时候。
You mean you had no remembrance-- we had no happiness, Bill?
你的意思是你没有记忆——我们没有幸福，比尔？
You just said you never saw the times when we did.
你刚才说你从未见过我们那样的时代。
A period.
一个时期。
I mean, when-- a period when I'd say things were just generally--
我的意思是，当——我会说事情一般般的时期——
Oh, you have a short memory, Bill.
哦，你记性不好，比尔。
I'm sorry to say that.
我很抱歉这么说。
We used to go up to Lake Erie.
我们曾经去伊利湖。
We had a lot of good times.
我们度过了很多美好时光。
You know--
你知道——
Bill, are you saying that there's no use trying?
比尔，你是说尝试没有用吗？
What's the bottom line?
底线是什么？
Let's get down to it.
让我们开始吧。
This is a lot of conversation.
这是很多对话。
Tell me what your attitude is.
告诉我你的态度是什么。
Are you advocating that we don't try?
你是否主张我们不要尝试？
I'm just-- I'm just taking-- Bill's Father No, I want to know.
我只是——我只是——比尔的父亲 不，我想知道。
Why do you take so long to answer?
为什么你这么长时间才回答？
Kind of like, say something.
有点像，说点什么。
(LAUGHING) Like, you know, just don't sit there.
（笑）就像，你知道，只是不要坐在那里。
I was less confrontational than I remember or expected.
我不像我记忆中或预期的那样具有对抗性。
But I could remember that thought process that I went through.
但我记得我经历过的思考过程。
If I say x, he's going to blow up.
如果我说x，他就会爆炸。
If I say y, I'm going to throw my mom under the bus.
如果我说是，我就会把我妈妈扔到公共汽车下。
I just-- I know what Mother's-- at least from what she tells me she's-- this has been something that she's obviously been thinking about a long time.
我只是——我知道母亲的想法——至少从她告诉我的情况来看——这显然是她已经思考了很长时间的事情。
Not-- not no long time.
不会——不会很久。
Maybe four or five years.
也许四五年。
Bill, do you know that her mind might be affected and she may not be herself psychologically?
比尔，你知道她的思想可能会受到影响，她可能在心理上不再是她自己吗？
For four or five years?
四五年？
Bill's Father Bill, do you realize that her mind might be affected?
比尔的父亲比尔，你知道她的思想可能会受到影响吗？
She may not be herself psychologically?
她心理上可能不是她自己吧？
For that long of time?
这么长时间？
Bill's Father Yes.
比尔的父亲 是的。
Would you like to see-- see us happy if we can arrange to be together?
如果我们能安排在一起，你愿意看到我们幸福吗？
Sure.
当然。
Bill's Father Why don't you say that?
比尔的父亲 你为什么不这么说呢？
Where was the warrior in me?
我内心的战士在哪里？
Where was the standup person that was willing to call a lie a lie, willing to draw bright lines, and say, I'm not-- I won't even put up with having a conversation about this?
那个愿意称谎言为谎言、愿意划清界限并说“我不是——我什至不会忍受就此进行对话”的正直人在哪里？
And some of these conversations go on so long.
其中一些对话持续了很长时间。
I mean, 45 minutes, an hour, and he's just hammering away at you and at the points he's making.
我的意思是，45 分钟，一个小时，他只是不断地对你和他所提出的观点进行反复强调。
Why did you stay on such a long time?
你为什么呆了这么长时间？
Why not just say, you know, Dad, I got to go?
为什么不直接说，你知道，爸爸，我得走了？
Yeah, no, I-- I mean, I was-- so I was living in Wisconsin during a lot of this taping.
是的，不，我——我的意思是，我——所以在大部分录音期间我都住在威斯康星州。
I felt badly that my mom was back there, basically, by herself, dealing with him.
我感觉很糟糕，因为我妈妈回到了那里，基本上是她一个人在和他打交道。
And I think I had some notion that by staying on the phone with him, you know, it's like a little bit of the rodeo clown.
我想我有一些想法，通过与他通电话，你知道，这有点像牛仔竞技小丑。
You know, those old rodeo clowns would be sent out.
你知道，那些老牛仔竞技小丑会被派出去。
The cowboy would be bucked off the bull.
牛仔会被公牛推开。
And those rodeo clowns--
还有那些牛仔竞技表演的小丑——
To distract the bull?
为了分散公牛的注意力？
Bill Lahey --would go out to distract the bull.
比尔·莱希（Bill Lahey）——会出去分散公牛的注意力。
Bill wasn't crushed by the difference between what he heard on the tapes and the tough line he'd remembered taking with his dad.
比尔并没有因为他在录音带上听到的内容和他记忆中对父亲采取的强硬路线之间的差异而感到沮丧。
But it did throw him off balance.
但这确实让他失去了平衡。
He really had seen himself, from the time he was a kid, as a warrior, standing up to the strong, protecting the weak, a sort of superhero, when it came to arguing against his dad.
从他还是个孩子的时候起，他就真的把自己视为一名战士，对抗强者，保护弱者，在与父亲争辩时，他是一位超级英雄。
But I was less heroic.
但我没那么英勇。
It was like I was more pragmatic.
就好像我更加务实了。
It was less of an epic struggle of right and wrong and more mundane than that.
这与其说是一场史诗般的对与错之争，不如说更加平凡。
I mean, what kid fantasizes about being a pragmatist?
我的意思是，哪个孩子会幻想成为一名实用主义者？
[LAUGHS] Right.
[笑]对。
Nancy Updike Bill says his mother thrived after the divorce.
南希·厄普代克·比尔说，他的母亲在离婚后过得很好。
His father, he says, stayed more or less the same.
他说，他的父亲或多或少保持着原样。
He married again, divorced again.
他又结婚了，又离婚了。
Bill kept up a relationship with him his whole life.
比尔一生都与他保持着关系。
That had been his other goal during these calls, besides protecting his mom-- not losing his dad.
除了保护他的妈妈之外，这是他在这些电话中的另一个目标——不要失去他的爸爸。
He had thought about that even during the worst arguments.
即使在最激烈的争论中他也想到了这一点。
Better a long silence than words he couldn't take back.
长时间的沉默比他无法收回的话要好。
Bill saw his father once or twice a year, every year, after the divorce.
离婚后，比尔每年都会见到他父亲一两次。
And he spoke to him by phone every few weeks until he died.
他每隔几周就和他通一次电话，直到他去世。
I'll call you back soon.
我很快就会给你回电话。
You could call me in the evening.
你可以晚上给我打电话。
Your number's the same?
你的号码是一样的吗？
Bill Lahey Sure.
比尔·莱希 当然可以。
All right.
好的。
Bill Lahey Any time you want to chat.
Bill Lahey 任何时候你想聊天都可以。
All right.
好的。
Bill Lahey OK.
比尔·莱希 好的。
So I will talk to you soon.
所以我很快就会和你谈谈。
OK, I'm glad you called.
好的，很高兴你打电话来。
Bill Lahey Yeah.
比尔·莱希 是的。
Take care.
小心。
Bill Lahey OK, Dad.
比尔·莱希 好吧，爸爸。
Good night.
晚安。
Coming up-- what the movie The Breakfast Club can teach you about parenting if you were in The Breakfast Club.
接下来——如果您参加过《早餐俱乐部》，电影《早餐俱乐部》可以教您有关育儿的知识。
That's in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.
稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Nancy Updike, sitting in for Ira Glass.
我是南希·厄普代克，代理艾拉·格拉斯。
Every week, we choose a theme.
每周我们都会选择一个主题。
You know that.
你知道的。
And we present various stories on that theme.
我们围绕这个主题呈现各种故事。
Today's show-- "Is That What I Look Like?" Stories of seeing yourself through other people's eyes, whether you want to or not.
今天的节目——《我就是这样的吗？》无论你愿意与否，通过别人的眼睛看到自己的故事。
And we're here at Act Three, which I think is going to be kind of a two-parter.
我们现在处于第三幕，我认为这将是两部分。
Act Three-- Ben, do you want to do that part?
第三幕——本，你想做那个部分吗？
I'm talking to Ben Calhoun, one of the producers here.
我正在和本·卡尔霍恩交谈，他是这里的制片人之一。
And he's got a small story.
他还有一个小故事。
He's embarrassed to tell it, but I'm making him.
他不好意思说出来，但我逼着他。
So Ben.
所以本.
Yeah?
是的？
Nancy Updike Take us back.
南希·厄普代克带我们回去。
It's eighth grade?
这是八年级吗？
Eighth grade.
八年级。
And I should just say, like, I played tuba.
我应该说，比如，我吹大号。
I was small.
我还小。
That was me.
那是我。
And definitely, like, zero attention from the girls in Roosevelt Middle School.
当然，罗斯福中学的女孩们的关注度为零。
I had this teacher, though, who-- her name was Miss Savage.
不过，我有一位老师，她的名字叫萨维奇小姐。
She was the cool teacher.
她是一位很酷的老师。
I bet.
我敢打赌。
Ben Calhoun Yeah.
本·卡尔霍恩 是的。
She was younger than, like, pretty much every teacher in the school.
她几乎比学校里的每一位老师都年轻。
She was, like, into Jane's Addiction, and she was, like, the rock-and-roll teacher, and all of the kids sort of, like, idolized her.
她就像是简的瘾君子，她就像是摇滚老师，所有的孩子都崇拜她。
OK, and we are going in a G/PG direction with this, right?
好的，我们将朝着 G/PG 方向前进，对吗？
Just checking.
只是检查。
So there was just this one day when I'm just, like, standing in the classroom, and there was, like, a-- there was, like, a crowd of girls that were standing around Miss Savage.
所以有一天，当我站在教室里时，就像有一群女孩站在萨维奇小姐周围。
And I don't-- I have no idea what they were talking about.
我不知道他们在说什么。
And Miss Savage is, like, saying something, and then, out of the blue, she says-- and she points to me.
萨维奇小姐好像在说些什么，然后她突然说——她指着我。
Like, I'm standing on the other side of the room, and she says, look out for that Ben Calhoun.
就像，我站在房间的另一边，她说，小心那个本·卡尔霍恩。
He's going to be a heartbreaker.
他将会成为一个令人心碎的人。
It was like a crowd of faces pivoted like satellites and looked at me.
就像一群面孔像卫星一样旋转着看着我。
And I was just like, I don't-- I don't totally know what happened, but it feels like maybe my life might have changed just right then.
我当时想，我不——我完全不知道发生了什么，但感觉也许我的生活可能就在那时发生了改变。
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
Did it change?
改变了吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah, did the girls kind of start to notice?
是啊，女孩们开始注意到了吗？
One girl in particular.
特别是一位女孩。
Nancy Updike That's all you need.
南希·厄普代克 这就是你所需要的。
Yeah.
是的。
Nancy Updike And that really can be all you need to change your life when you're a teenager-- just one person who thinks you're great.
南希·厄普代克（Nancy Updike） 当你十几岁的时候，这真的可以是你改变生活所需要的一切——只需一个认为你很棒的人。
Because chances are, your own sense of yourself is way off.
因为很有可能，你对自己的认识已经很差了。
A friend of a friend-- this is a woman in her 50s-- came across an old photo of herself as a teenager.
一位朋友的朋友——一位 50 多岁的女性——偶然发现了一张自己十几岁时的旧照片。
And it had been years since she'd seen any pictures of herself at that age.
她已经很多年没有见过自己那个年纪的照片了。
And she looked at them and thought, oh, wait, I was pretty.
她看着他们，心想，哦，等等，我很漂亮。
I was pretty.
我本来就很漂亮
It kind of floored her.
这让她有些震惊。
Because of course, the girl in the pictures looked nothing like the way she thought of herself at the time.
当然，因为照片中的女孩看上去与她当时对自己的看法完全不同。
She said she wished she'd known it back then.
她说她希望自己当时就知道这一点。
It would have made a difference.
这本来会有所作为。
Lots of us have had that experience-- looking at old family pictures or yearbooks, seeing things we never saw at the time.
我们很多人都有过这样的经历——看着旧的家庭照片或年鉴，看到我们当时从未见过的东西。
This next story is a very specialized case of that kind of thing.
下一个故事是此类事情的一个非常特殊的案例。
It's about the actress Molly Ringwald, who, of course, doesn't just have photos, but movies, beautifully shot, widescreen, full-length Hollywood films of herself as a teenager.
这是关于女演员莫莉·林沃德 (Molly Ringwald) 的，当然，她不仅有照片，还有电影，拍摄精美，宽银幕，长篇好莱坞电影，讲述了她十几岁的经历。
She's the redhead, the star, in those three iconic '80s movies by John Hughes-- Pretty in Pink, Sixteen Candles, and The Breakfast Club.
她是约翰·休斯 80 年代三部标志性电影《红粉佳人》、《十六支蜡烛》和《早餐俱乐部》中的红发女郎、明星。
Recently, she revisited one of those movies, not exactly by choice, and she talked to Ira Glass.
最近，她重新审视了其中一部电影，这并非完全出于选择，她还与艾拉·格拉斯进行了交谈。
Here's Ira.
这是艾拉。
I suppose it's not a big surprise that Molly Ringwald does not sit around watching old Molly Ringwald films.
我想莫莉·林沃德不坐在那儿看莫莉·林沃德的老电影并不奇怪。
You know, she's seen 'em.
你知道，她见过他们。
She needs a big reason to go back to them.
她需要一个充分的理由才能回到他们身边。
And recently, her daughter gave her a reason.
而最近，女儿给了她一个理由。
Her daughter, Mathilda, is 10.
她的女儿玛蒂尔达 10 岁。
And Mathilda wanted to see The Breakfast Club.
玛蒂尔达想去看看早餐俱乐部。
Of course, 10 is a little young to see The Breakfast Club, but most of her friends had seen it.
当然，10 岁看《早餐俱乐部》有点年轻，但她的大多数朋友都看过。
So it was kind of weird that she was the only one that hadn't seen this movie.
所以她是唯一一个没有看过这部电影的人，这有点奇怪。
And she said that it was a conversation at slumber parties where that's a movie that some kids want to watch, and that she had always said, plea-- I don't want to watch it.
她说这是在睡衣派对上的一次谈话，那是一部有些孩子想看的电影，她总是说，恳求——我不想看它。
Can we watch something else?
我们可以看点别的吗？
Because she wanted to watch it with me, which I thought was really nice.
因为她想和我一起看，我觉得这真的很好。
I wonder if it's like she wants to watch it with you-- like, that's a nice thing to say to your mom.
我想知道她是否想和你一起看——就像，这对你妈妈来说是件好事。
But the truth could also be, she just doesn't want to watch it with them.
但事实也可能是，她只是不想和他们一起看。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
Like, can you imagine watching your mom with a group of your friends, like, and you have no idea what's about to happen?
就像，你能想象看着你的妈妈和一群朋友在一起，你不知道会发生什么吗？
Yeah.
是的。
I didn't even really think about that, but yeah, I'm sure that had something to do with it.
我什至没有真正考虑过这一点，但是，是的，我确信这与它有关。
Mathilda does not like surprises.
玛蒂尔达不喜欢惊喜。
And the fact is, Molly Ringwald preferred to watch it with Mathilda.
事实上，莫莉·林沃德更喜欢和玛蒂尔达一起观看。
It just seemed like it might be a nice experience to share together.
看起来一起分享可能是一次很好的经历。
And there were things in the film that she knew that she was going to want to talk to Mathilda about.
她知道电影中有些事情她想和玛蒂尔达谈论。
Like, for instance, there's a scene where she smokes pot in the film as a teenager.
例如，电影中有一个场景是她十几岁的时候吸大麻。
So Molly showed her The Breakfast Club, not sure at all how she was going to react, not sure what it would be like to see the film through Mathilda's eyes.
于是莫莉给她看了《早餐俱乐部》，完全不知道她会作何反应，也不知道通过玛蒂尔达的眼睛看这部电影会是什么样子。
We sent her a tape recorder to record what happened.
我们给她寄了一台录音机来记录发生的事情。
Hello.
你好。
Ira Glass Which, by the way, Mathilda loved the tape recorder.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 顺便说一句，玛蒂尔达（Mathilda）喜欢录音机。
Hello.
你好。
So-- Ira Glass She loved talking into the tape recorder.
所以——艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 她喜欢对着录音机说话。
She loved answering questions-- though she is not going to hear this radio story for a long time.
她喜欢回答问题——尽管她很长一段时间不会听到这个广播故事了。
That's the plan.
这就是计划。
The Breakfast Club, if you've never seen, is five kids.
如果你从未见过，早餐俱乐部有五个孩子。
They're stuck together in school on a Saturday, for all-day detention.
周六，他们被困在学校里，全天被拘留。
They're kids who never would normally talk to each other in school.
他们是在学校里通常不会互相交谈的孩子。
It's a jock, a brain, a tough kid, a popular girl, and an outsider girl.
这是一个运动员，一个大脑，一个坚强的孩子，一个受欢迎的女孩，一个局外人的女孩。
And you know, it's a John Hughes movie.
你知道，这是一部约翰·休斯的电影。
They bond, talking about all these things that everybody feels in high school.
他们建立了联系，谈论每个人在高中时感受到的所有事情。
And you can totally see why it still gets to kids and why it's the John Hughes film that Molly Ringwald looks back on as her favorite.
你完全可以理解为什么它仍然受到孩子们的欢迎，以及为什么莫莉·林沃德回顾约翰·休斯的电影时最喜欢它。
So she and Mathilda-- they make popcorn.
所以她和玛蒂尔达——他们制作爆米花。
They futz around with the TV.
他们摆弄着电视。
And you know, stars are just like us.
你知道，明星就像我们一样。
They do not know how to operate their video systems either.
他们也不知道如何操作视频系统。
They cannot figure out how to turn it on, and is it DVD or HDMI?
他们不知道如何打开它，是 DVD 还是 HDMI？
I mean, it sounds really silly.
我的意思是，这听起来真的很愚蠢。
I mean, it's like, it was almost like a date, you know?
我的意思是，这就像，这几乎就像一次约会，你知道吗？
Like, where you just-- you just want everything to go OK.
就像，你只是希望一切顺利。
Yeah.
是的。
Molly Ringwald You know?
莫莉·林沃德 你知道吗？
I didn't want her to-- I didn't want her to not like it, you know?
我不想让她——我不想让她不喜欢，你知道吗？
I didn't want her to get bored.
我不想让她感到无聊。
OK.
好的。
Wait.
等待。
Mathilda OK, it's fun to talk to-- ah!
玛蒂尔达 好吧，和你聊天很有趣——啊！
You!
你！
Oh, my god, it's you!
天啊，原来是你啊！
[LAUGHTER] Ira Glass Was there any point during the film where you had second thoughts about watching it with her?
[笑声] 艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 在电影中是否有任何时刻让你重新考虑与她一起观看这部电影？
The sex stuff, I was a little-- I was cringing a little bit.
性方面的事情，我有点——我有点畏缩。
Oh, are you medically frigid or is it psychological?
哦，你的性冷淡是医学上的还是心理上的？
I didn't mean it that way!
我不是那个意思！
You guys are putting words in my mouth!
你们居然把话塞到我嘴里！
You know, there's a whole part where everyone is saying, did you do it?
你知道，有一部分每个人都在说，你做到了吗？
Did you do it?
你做到了吗？
Yeah, answer it.
是啊，回答一下吧
Andrew Just answer the question, Claire.
安德鲁，请回答问题，克莱尔。
Answer the question.
回答问题。
Molly Ringwald So then, I'm thinking, she's going to ask me, what are they talking about?
莫莉·林沃德 那么，我在想，她会问我，他们在谈论什么？
But then, she just didn't ask.
但后来，她只是没有问。
It was-- she was not-- all of that stuff, she just didn't want to know.
是——她不是——所有这些东西，她只是不想知道。
And so I was trying to sort of ask her what she got out of that, what she thought we were talking about, but trying to ask her in such a way where I wouldn't tell her, where I wouldn't end up talking about sex if she didn't know.
所以我试图问她从中得到了什么，她认为我们在谈论什么，但试图以一种我不会告诉她的方式问她，如果她不知道，我最终不会谈论性。
So all the talk about, did she do it, did she not do it, all of that stuff, kind of--
所以所有的谈论，她做了吗，她没有做吗，所有这些事情，有点——
The what-- the what part?
什么——什么部分？
Molly Ringwald When they were like, did you do it?
莫莉·林沃德（Molly Ringwald） 当他们问，是你做的吗？
Did you do it?
你做到了吗？
Claire, just answer the question.
克莱尔，回答问题吧。
Answer the question.
回答问题。
And my husband's sitting there, looking at me, just, stop.
我丈夫坐在那里，看着我，停下来。
Stop.
停止。
She doesn't get it.
她不明白。
So this is the first time that you saw the film as a parent.
这是您第一次作为父母观看这部电影。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ira Glass Did you see it differently?
Ira Glass 你有不同的看法吗？
Absolutely.
绝对地。
I really did.
我真的做到了。
Like, I really kind of felt for the parents.
就像，我真的很同情父母。
For people who haven't seen The Breakfast Club, a lot of it is about the kids being disappointed in the parents.
对于没有看过《早餐俱乐部》的人来说，很多都是关于孩子们对父母的失望。
Yeah, and how alone and isolated and frustrated you feel with your parents.
是的，你和父母在一起时感到多么孤独、孤立和沮丧。
And now, I see the movie, and I just-- I think, oh, their poor parents.
现在，我看了这部电影，我只是想，哦，他们可怜的父母。
And I think that when it was pointed out to me that the movie just talks about how all parents suck, you know, then I thought in my mind, well, actually, that might be kind of good, because then she can see that she doesn't have parents like that.
我认为，当有人向我指出这部电影只是讲述所有父母如何糟糕时，你知道，然后我在心里想，好吧，实际上，这可能有点好，因为这样她就可以看到她没有那样的父母。
And then, she can appreciate us.
然后，她就能欣赏我们。
[LAUGHS] And--
[笑]还有——
OK, so afterwards, you're talking to her about the film, and there's this moment that gets surprisingly emotional.
好吧，之后，你和她谈论这部电影，这一刻变得令人惊讶的情绪化。
And let me play you that.
让我给你玩这个。
Which character, when the characters talk, and you think, like, oh, that's what I feel like?
哪个角色，当角色说话时，你会想，哦，这就是我的感觉？
Are there any that you say, like, yeah, that's like what I feel like?
你有没有说，是的，这就像我的感觉一样？
Just a little bit of, like-- is it, like, Brian or something?
只是一点点，比如，是布莱恩之类的吗？
Brian, I should say, is the straight-A student whose parents pressure him to get good grades, played by Anthony Michael Hall.
我应该说，布莱恩是一个全优生，他的父母向他施压，要求他取得好成绩，由安东尼·迈克尔·霍尔饰演。
You kind of feel like Brian?
你感觉像布莱恩吗？
Mathilda I do, kind of.
玛蒂尔达 我喜欢，有点。
He's really sweet, isn't he?
他真的很可爱，不是吗？
Mathilda I know, but you kind of, like, sometimes pressure me in school.
玛蒂尔达我知道，但你有时在学校给我施加压力。
[LAUGHS NERVOUSLY]
[紧张地笑]
No, but barely.
不，但勉强。
Like-- Molly Ringwald Wow, really?
就像——莫莉·林沃德（Molly Ringwald） 哇，真的吗？
Wait, wait.
等等，等等。
Wait, no, no, no. No, tell me.
等等，不，不，不。不，告诉我。
Tell me.
告诉我。
Oh, hey!
哦，嘿！
[SOBBING] Molly Ringwald Hey!
[抽泣] 莫莉·林沃德 嘿！
No, it's OK.
不，没关系。
No, no, no. Sweetie.
不，不，不。亲爱的。
Hey, it's OK!
嘿，没关系！
OK.
好的。
Molly Ringwald I'm just-- I'm just surprised.
莫莉·林沃德（Molly Ringwald） 我只是——我只是很惊讶。
Yeah.
是的。
Molly Ringwald OK, well, you know what?
莫莉·林沃德 好吧，你知道吗？
That's really good for me to know.
知道这对我来说真的很好。
I had no idea.
我不知道。
Like, when did I make you feel like that?
比如说，我什么时候让你有这样的感觉了？
When you kept on saying, like, I wish I did better in school.
当你一直说“我希望我在学校表现更好”时。
Oh, because I said that I wish I did better in school?
哦，因为我说我希望我在学校表现更好？
So--
所以——
But you don't anymore.
但你不再这样了。
Ira Glass Do you remember the things she's talking about, of you saying to her, like, oh, I wish that I had done better in school?
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：你还记得她说的话吗？你对她说过的话，比如，哦，我希望我在学校表现得更好吗？
[SIGHS] I was really surprised.
[叹气]我真的很惊讶。
I was not expecting that at all.
我根本没想到会这样。
And the only thing that I can think of, really, is we have this homework battle.
事实上，我唯一能想到的就是我们有这场家庭作业之战。
And it's incredibly frustrating.
这非常令人沮丧。
And--
还有——
It's frustrating to get her to do the work.
让她做这项工作真是令人沮丧。
Yeah because it's really easy.
是的，因为这真的很容易。
I mean and I'm not just saying that as an adult.
我的意思是，我不只是作为一个成年人这么说。
I mean, it's easy.
我的意思是，这很容易。
It's easy work for her.
这对她来说是很容易的工作。
Molly Ringwald It's easy work for her.
莫莉·林沃德（Molly Ringwald） 这对她来说很容易。
If she would just sit down, do it, it would take 15 minutes, 20 minutes.
如果她坐下来做，就需要 15 分钟、20 分钟。
But she resents the fact that she has to do it so much, and it became such a battle, that she would sort of lie, sprawled out, kind of barely write-- you couldn't even read her writing.
但她怨恨的是，她必须做这么多事情，这变成了一场战斗，她会撒谎，四肢摊开，几乎不写——你甚至无法阅读她的作品。
And I would just get so frustrated with her, and you know, and I would yell at her and say, you can do better than this.
我会对她感到非常沮丧，你知道，我会对她大喊大叫，说，你可以做得更好。
You're smarter than this.
你比这个聪明。
You know, all the things that parents say.
你知道，父母所说的一切。
And I think it must have affected her.
我想这一定影响了她。
And then, she said, well, you don't do it anymore.
然后，她说，好吧，你不要再这样做了。
You know, and the reason why I don't do it anymore is because I don't do her homework with her anymore, because I can't.
你知道，我不再这样做的原因是我不再和她一起做作业了，因为我做不到。
I find it too frustrating.
我觉得太令人沮丧了。
When she said that, I thought, like, oh, is she just being protective of you, you know?
当她这么说时，我想，哦，她只是在保护你，你知道吗？
I think she was being protective of me, too.
我想她也是在保护我。
I think the thing that I noticed the most was Mathilda kind of wanting to make me feel OK.
我想我最注意到的是玛蒂尔达想让我感觉良好。
She really did not want to hurt my feelings or make me upset, and she wants to please me, too.
她真的不想伤害我的感情或让我心烦意乱，她也想取悦我。
I can hear that when I-- [SIGHS] Yeah.
当我——[叹气]是的，我能听到。
Well, the fact that the next thing that happens-- she instantly goes to, I have better parents than they do.
好吧，事实上，接下来发生的事情——她立即想到，我有比他们更好的父母。
So is there anything else that you got out of the movie that you--
那么你从这部电影中还有什么其他的收获吗——
Um, like, well, I have better parents than them.
嗯，嗯，我有比他们更好的父母。
[LAUGHS] You're just saying that to make me feel better.
[笑]你这么说只是为了让我感觉好一点。
Come on.
快点。
I mean, it was bizarre how she just said the thing that I hoped she would get out of it.
我的意思是，她说出了我希望她能摆脱困境的话，这很奇怪。
She knows.
她知道。
I mean, she can intuit that.
我的意思是，她能凭直觉知道这一点。
She knew that I was hoping for that.
她知道我也希望如此。
Yeah, she was giving me a little present, wrapped in a bow.
是的，她给了我一件小礼物，用蝴蝶结包着。
But at a moment where it doesn't feel like that at all.
但此刻却完全没有那种感觉。
No. No, not at all.
不，不，一点也不。
Ira Glass The whole thing, after wondering a lot about what happened when Mathilda cried and how she handled it, and should she have let Mathilda talk for longer, and should she have asked her more questions or different questions-- you know, you just can never know what things that you say to your kids are going to stay with them, and just little things, said in a passing moment, that are going to bounce around in their heads and lead them to conclusions that you don't intend or expect in any way.
艾拉·格拉斯：在想了很多关于玛蒂尔达哭泣时发生的事情以及她如何处理这件事之后，她是否应该让玛蒂尔达多说一会儿，是否应该问她更多的问题或不同的问题之后——你知道，你永远不知道你对你的孩子说的话会留在他们的脑海里，而只是一瞬间说的小事，会在他们的脑海中跳来跳去，并导致他们得出你不打算或不期望的结论。
Yeah.
是的。
I think there's always moments where you perceive things differently.
我认为总有一些时刻你会对事物有不同的看法。
I know it with my own mom and dad.
我和我自己的爸爸妈妈都知道这一点。
I mean, there are times where I'll tell a story that I've heard a million times over the years, you know, and my mom will just completely switch it up, or she'll see it completely differently.
我的意思是，有时候我会讲一个多年来我听过一百万遍的故事，你知道，我妈妈会完全改变它，或者她会完全不同地看待它。
Like some story from your childhood, like you're telling this story about something they did or--
就像你童年的某个故事，就像你正在讲述他们所做的事情的故事，或者——
Yeah.
是的。
Ira Glass And they're just like, no, no, no.
Ira Glass：他们只是说，不，不，不。
Well, yeah.
嗯，是的。
I mean, there's one.
我的意思是，有一个。
You know, I come from a family where my sister was sort of designated as the great beauty in the family.
你知道，我来自一个家庭，我的妹妹被认为是家里的大美女。
And this was just, like, known.
这就是众所周知的。
My sister--
我的妹妹——
I was the talented one, my brother was the smart one, and my sister was the beautiful one.
我是有才华的，我哥哥是聪明的，我姐姐是美丽的。
And I remember actually asking my mom at-- I must have been around Mathilda's age-- if she thought that I was pretty.
我记得我当时确实问过我妈妈——我当时的年纪应该和玛蒂尔达差不多——她是否认为我漂亮。
And she said, you're cute.
她说，你很可爱。
And--
还有——
Ooh.
哦。
Molly Ringwald Yeah, and that is really not what you want to hear when you're-- (LAUGHING) 10 years-- I mean, now, it's OK.
Molly Ringwald 是的，当你——（笑）10 岁——我的意思是，现在，这真的不是你想听到的。
I would be OK with cute.
可爱的话我就可以了。
But when you're 10, it was just devastating.
但当你10岁的时候，这简直是毁灭性的。
And-- and she completely denies that now.
而且——她现在完全否认了这一点。
And I mean, something that would have such an impact on me-- I mean, I just-- I wasn't making it up.
我的意思是，那些会对我产生如此大影响的事情——我的意思是，我只是——我没有编造出来。
It really affected me.
这确实影响了我。
She says, oh, I always knew that you were beautiful.
她说，哦，我一直都知道你很漂亮。
You know, ask your father.
你知道，问你父亲就知道了。
And obviously, like, if she had any idea how it would bounce around in your head, she would have never said it, too.
显然，如果她知道它会如何在你的脑海中跳动，她也永远不会说出来。
She didn't think like, oh, that's going to stick.
她不认为，哦，这会持续下去。
(LAUGHING) No, no. I don't think that she did.
（笑）不，不。我不认为她这么做了。
I have a friend.
我有一个朋友。
Her mom would tell her and her sister, no, you girls are average.
她妈妈会告诉她和她姐姐，不，你们女孩很普通。
Oh!
哦！
Ira Glass No, no, like, you guys are-- you girls are average.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 不，不，就像，你们——你们女孩很普通。
You know, like, you're smart, but you're average smart.
你知道，你很聪明，但你的聪明程度一般。
And I was like, wow, you were not raised by Jews, man.
我当时想，哇，你不是由犹太人养大的，伙计。
[LAUGHTER]
[笑声]
That is not the message you get.
这不是您收到的消息。
I mean, in my experience, there's a lot of, you're so special.
我的意思是，根据我的经验，有很多，你很特别。
You're the most special.
你是最特别的。
You're so special.
你很特别。
You know, like, the boys and the girls.
你知道，就像男孩和女孩一样。
You know, like, she's the most talented--
你知道，她是最有才华的——
Well, I was always told that I was special.
嗯，我总是被告知我很特别。
I mean, there was no question that I was special and that I was destined for greatness.
我的意思是，毫无疑问我很特别，而且我注定会变得伟大。
As a little kid?
作为一个小孩子？
Molly Ringwald As a little kid.
莫莉·林沃德小时候。
Wow.
哇。
Molly Ringwald From the time that I was really little.
莫莉·林沃德（Molly Ringwald） 从我很小的时候起。
I mean, to the point where-- [CHUCKLES] this is kind of heavy, but I'll tell you anyway.
我的意思是，到了——[笑]这有点沉重，但无论如何我都会告诉你。
My first brother died.
我的第一个兄弟死了。
He was the first, and I was the last, so we never met.
他是第一个，我是最后一个，所以我们从未见过面。
But my mom was understandably just devastated by this and was sort of suicidal for a while.
但可以理解的是，我妈妈对此感到震惊，有一段时间有点自杀倾向。
I mean, didn't actually try anything, but she was considering, and then was-- [LAUGHS] this makes her sound so hippy dippy, and she's not at all.
我的意思是，实际上并没有尝试任何事情，但她正在考虑，然后是——[笑]这让她听起来很嬉皮士，但她根本不是。
But she believes that she conversed with a spirit.
但她相信她与灵魂交谈。
And what they said, basically-- and this is a story that I've heard since I was very small-- that she was here for another reason, for someone else.
他们所说的，基本上——这是我从小就听过的故事——她来这里是为了另一个原因，为了其他人。
And as soon as I was born, she knew that it was me.
我一出生，她就知道那是我。
That's a lot to put on you.
这对你来说有很多负担。
Molly Ringwald Yeah.
莫莉·林沃德 是的。
It's heavy.
它很重。
(LAUGHING) It's really--
（笑）这真的是——
She told you that when you were a little girl, that she was put on this Earth because of you?
她告诉你，当你还是个小女孩的时候，她是因为你才来到这个地球上的？
She believed that that was why-- yeah, I mean, because she knew that there was some reason why she was supposed to stick around and--
她相信这就是为什么——是的，我的意思是，因为她知道她应该留下来是有原因的——
And stay alive.
并活下去。
And it was to have this little girl, who was you, who was such a special gift to the world.
正是有了这个小女孩，你就是你，她是给世界的一份特别的礼物。
Yeah.
是的。
Ira Glass So how strange that you would end up famous by the age of 15 or something.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 那么，你在 15 岁左右就成名了，这真是太奇怪了。
Well, I kind of had to.
嗯，我有点不得不这么做。
I mean, I kept my mom alive.
我的意思是，我让我妈妈活了下来。
And so then, when you actually did become a movie star as a teenager, did she take that as proof?
那么，当你十几岁的时候真的成为一名电影明星时，她会以此作为证据吗？
Like, oh, see, that was all true?
就像，哦，看，这都是真的吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Ira Glass And did you, at the time?
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）当时你也这么做吗？
Like, did the whole story fit together for you, too?
就像，整个故事也适合你吗？
Yeah.
是的。
I had to succeed.
我必须成功。
I had to be great.
我必须变得伟大。
I know.
我知道。
And then, what do I do?
然后，我该怎么办？
I turn around, and I pressure my daughter, because I think she's so great.
我转过身来，向我的女儿施压，因为我觉得她太棒了。
I know.
我知道。
Yeah.
是的。
Nancy Updike Ira J.
南希·厄普代克·艾拉·J.
Glass with Molly Ringwald.
莫莉·林沃德的玻璃。
She's still acting and translating, and she's working on a new book about her Paris years.
她仍在表演和翻译，并且正在写一本关于她在巴黎的岁月的新书。
And Mathilda-- she's in college now and just finished filming her first movie.
玛蒂尔达——她现在正在上大学，刚刚拍完她的第一部电影。
Our program was produced today by Jonathan Menjivar, with Alex Blumberg, Ben Calhoun, Sean Cole, Stephanie Foo, Chana Joffe-Walt, Sarah Koenig, Brian Reed, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, and Ira Glass.
我们今天的节目由 Jonathan Menjivar 与 Alex Blumberg、Ben Calhoun、Sean Cole、Stephanie Foo、Chana Joffe-Walt、Sarah Koenig、Brian Reed、Robyn Semien、Alissa Shipp 和 Ira Glass 共同制作。
Our senior producer for this show was Julie Snyder.
我们这个节目的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
Production help from Simon Adler and Lilly Sullivan, additional production help on today's rerun from James Bennett II, Michael Comite Katherine Rae Mondo, Stowe Nelson, and Matt Tierney.
西蒙·阿德勒 (Simon Adler) 和莉莉·沙利文 (Lilly Sullivan) 提供了制作帮助，詹姆斯·贝内特二世 (James Bennett II)、迈克尔·科米特 (Michael Comite)、凯瑟琳·雷蒙多 (Katherine Rae Mondo)、斯托·尼尔森 (Stowe Nelson) 和马特·蒂尔尼 (Matt Tierney) 为今天的重播提供了额外的制作帮助。
Our website-- thisamericanlife.org, where you can stream over 800 of our episodes for absolutely free.
我们的网站 -- thisamericanlife.org，您可以在其中完全免费观看我们的 800 多集节目。
Thanks, as always, to our program's confounder, Torey Malatia, and to our boss, Mr. Ira Glass.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的创始人托里·马拉蒂亚 (Torey Malatia) 和我们的老板艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 先生。
While he was hosting the show recently, he spent a little time moonlighting as a realtor.
最近在主持节目时，他花了一点时间兼职做房地产经纪人。
He's really got to work on his pitch.
他确实需要在球场上努力。
Look at that really [BLEEP] small house over there.
看看那边那个真的[哔]的小房子。
I'm Nancy Updike.
我是南希·厄普代克。
Ira Glass will be back with more stories of This American Life.
艾拉·格拉斯将带着更多《美国生活》的故事回来。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。