812: The Bear at the End of the Tunnel - This American Life

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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #812 | October 20, 2023 812: The Bear at the End of the Tunnel Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.

00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 812 集 | 2023 年 10 月 20 日 812：隧道尽头的熊 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。

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如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。

Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.

文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。

Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.

请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。

Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass

序言：序言 艾拉·格拉斯

His brother needed somebody last minute, because a guy bailed on him.

他的兄弟在最后一刻需要有人，因为有人抛弃了他。

Jeff also had somebody bail on him.

杰夫还让人保释了他。

He'd moved back home for the summer, for this girl he liked.

为了这个他喜欢的女孩，他暑假搬回了家。

And it became, like, really apparent right away that that wasn't going to work out.

事情很快就变得很明显，那就是行不通。

So he had some time on his hands.

所以他还有一些空闲时间。

His brother was doing a research study on black bears.

他的兄弟正在对黑熊进行研究。

His brother was a wildlife biologist and offered him this job as a field tech.

他的兄弟是一名野生动物生物学家，并为他提供了这份现场技术人员的工作。

And a summer working with black bears was a dream, so--

和黑熊一起工作的夏天是一个梦想，所以——

That wouldn't be a dream for everybody.

这不是每个人的梦想。

Why was that a dream for you?

为什么这对你来说是一个梦想？

Oh, I just think bears are the coolest animals.

哦，我只是觉得熊是最酷的动物。

They're so cool.

他们太酷了。

Black bears are, like, so cool, how fast they can climb a tree.

黑熊真是太酷了，他们爬树的速度有多快。

Like, their ears-- I love their-- bears' ears.

就像，他们的耳朵——我爱他们的——熊的耳朵。

I just love everything about bears.

我喜欢关于熊的一切。

So Jeff loves bears.

所以杰夫喜欢熊。

His brother, Wes, studies bears.

他的兄弟韦斯研究熊。

Jeff is the younger brother.

杰夫是弟弟。

Wes is the older brother.

韦斯是哥哥。

Wes's research was to track where bears were in Bryce Canyon National Park in Utah.

韦斯的研究是追踪犹他州布莱斯峡谷国家公园中熊的位置。

Here he is.

他在这里。

There was a bear that had broken into a tent, swatted a woman while she was sleeping, really scared her.

有一头熊闯入帐篷，趁着熟睡的妇女猛扑，真把她吓坏了。

And so the idea was to collar some bears, track them, see where they're going, how they're spending their time.

所以我们的想法是给一些熊戴上项圈，追踪它们，看看它们要去哪里，它们如何度过时间。

If they could figure that out, the park could relocate campsites away from those areas and post signs.

如果他们能解决这个问题，公园可以将露营地迁离这些区域并张贴标志。

So Wes and Jeff spent a summer putting collars with GPS devices onto a bunch of wild bears.

因此，韦斯和杰夫花了一个夏天的时间给一群野熊戴上带有 GPS 设备的项圈。

And then in the winter, they had to go back and check on the bears, do a quick exam, make sure their collars weren't too tight once the bears fattened up for winter, swap out any old collars that needed new batteries.

然后到了冬天，他们必须回去检查熊的情况，进行快速检查，确保一旦熊养肥过冬，它们的项圈不会太紧，并更换需要新电池的旧项圈。

And it turns out the easiest way to do that is to visit the bears when they're hibernating in their dens.

事实证明，最简单的方法就是在熊在巢穴中冬眠时拜访它们。

In most bear dens, that job isn't actually too difficult or scary.

在大多数熊窝里，这项工作实际上并不太困难或太可怕。

The dens are small, like a cavity in some rock or under a tree, Wes says.

韦斯说，这些巢穴很小，就像岩石上或树下的洞一样。

And they're generally shallow enough that I can just-- I have a pole that has a syringe on the end of it.

它们通常足够浅，我可以——我有一根杆子，杆子的末端有一个注射器。

I can just extend that pole and sedate the bear from outside of the den.

我可以伸出那根杆子，从巢穴外面给熊注射镇静剂。

I don't generally even have to go inside.

我通常甚至不需要进去。

Generally.

一般来说。

Jeff But then, you get a couple dens where it's like you're the only thing between the bear and the exit.

杰夫：但是，你会得到几个洞穴，就好像你是熊和出口之间唯一的东西。

And that's when it gets kind of sketchy.

这就是它变得有点粗略的时候。

Oh, this one was, like, on another level, though.

哦，不过，这个是在另一个层面上的。

This one was crazy.

这个人太疯狂了。

This one happened on a wintry day.

这件事发生在一个寒冷的日子。

The two of them headed out to see bear number 95 in their study.

两人出去看看书房里的95号熊。

They saw a signal on the GPS, climbed maybe 1,000 feet up a steep hillside to get to him in the snow.

他们看到 GPS 上有信号，就爬上大约 1,000 英尺的陡峭山坡，在雪地里找到了他。

It was hard and cold.

天气又硬又冷。

And then they struggled to find any opening at all in the rock that could be a den, because it's just a blanket of snow everywhere.

然后他们努力在岩石上寻找任何可能成为洞穴的开口，因为到处都是一层雪。

They searched for maybe half an hour.

他们搜寻了大约半个小时。

And then Wes is, like, standing on this, like, tiny little opening.

然后韦斯就站在这个小小的开口上。

And then I see these branches right by his feet.

然后我看到这些树枝就在他脚边。

And a lot of times, bears will, like, bring branches into their den.

很多时候，熊会把树枝带进它们的巢穴。

So I'm like, Wes, like, I think you're standing on top of the den.

所以我说，韦斯，我想你正站在书房顶上。

(CHUCKLING) And he's just like, no way.

（笑）他就是这样，不可能。

They clear away the snow, and it's an opening the size of a manhole cover, going into the side of a sandstone cliff.

他们清除了积雪，这是一个井盖大小的开口，通向砂岩悬崖的一侧。

And then we crouched down and looked.

然后我们蹲下来看。

And, like-- I mean, you could only see, like, 20 feet in, and it's just black.

而且，就像——我的意思是，你只能看到 20 英尺内，而且它只是黑色的。

So honestly, this den-- it would be terrifying to go in it if you, like, didn't know anything was in there.

老实说，这个巢穴——如果你不知道里面有什么东西的话，进去会很可怕。

And you know that there's a bear in there, so that just intensifies it so much more.

你知道那里有一只熊，所以这只会让事情变得更加激烈。

But it's like even if there wasn't a bear, I'd be like, this is scary.

但即使没有熊，我也会想，这太可怕了。

Wes and Jeff discuss whether they're going to go into this hole.

韦斯和杰夫讨论是否要进入这个洞。

Black bears aren't like grizzlies.

黑熊不像灰熊。

They almost never attack people.

他们几乎从不攻击人。

But going into this very unusual den where the bear might feel trapped or threatened and have no way out except through them-- that's a choice.

但是进入这个非常不寻常的巢穴，熊可能会感到被困或受到威胁，除了通过它们之外别无出路——这是一种选择。

Jeff does talk back to Wes way more than any normal field tech would, because he's his brother.

杰夫与韦斯顶嘴的次数确实比任何正常的现场技术人员都要多，因为他是韦斯的兄弟。

But Wes is the boss, and he's like, we came this far, and we really do need to change that bear's collar.

但韦斯是老板，他说，我们已经走到这一步了，我们确实需要更换那个熊的项圈。

And I start crawling in, looking for the back of the den, looking for the bear, and it's just not there.

我开始爬进去，寻找巢穴的后面，寻找那只熊，但它不在那里。

And this hole just plunges into darkness.

而这个洞就陷入了黑暗。

My headlamp only goes so far.

我的头灯只能照到这么远。

And I just keep going.

我只是继续前进。

And immediately, I realize, like, shit, this is a really, really long den.

我立刻意识到，妈的，这是一个非常非常长的巢穴。

This is much longer than anything I've ever seen or even heard of.

这比我见过或听说过的任何东西都要长得多。

How long?

多长时间？

Wes This thing extends 80 feet back, and at the end of it, it's just pitch black.

韦斯 这东西向后延伸了 80 英尺，到了尽头，只剩下一片漆黑。

You kind of-- you really do have to suppress a lot of primal stuff that's telling you this is a place where you are not supposed to be.

你确实必须压抑很多原始的东西，这些东西告诉你这是一个你不应该出现的地方。

This is not a place for humans.

这不是人类的地方。

Wes is in front, big brother, scientist.

韦斯在前面，大哥，科学家。

Jeff's behind-- little brother, assistant.

杰夫在后面——弟弟，助手。

And they're army-crawling, because the tunnel is too low to stand up in.

他们像军队一样爬行，因为隧道太低，无法站立。

It's pretty cramped.

这是相当狭窄的。

And you know that feeling where you're in your belly in a tunnel, inching towards a bear?

你知道那种感觉，你在隧道的肚子里，慢慢地走向一只熊吗？

No, of course not.

不，当然不是。

You don't know that feeling.

你不知道那种感觉。

Who has done that?

谁这样做过？

But you have been in this situation of moving toward something scary or dreadful ahead.

但你一直处于这种情况，正在走向前方令人恐惧或可怕的事情。

And now, you have gotten yourself in it.

而现在，你已经深陷其中了。

You can't turn back.

你无法回头。

You have to keep moving.

你必须继续前进。

You just have to deal.

你只需要处理。

And that is what today's show is about.

这就是今天节目的主题。

We have this story, and then we have another one in the second half of the show.

我们有这个故事，然后我们在节目的后半部分有另一个故事。

And yes, it's This American Life from WBEZ Chicago, Ira Glass.

是的，这就是芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》，艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass)。

Anyway, so they're edging towards this bear, right?

不管怎样，所以他们正在接近这只熊，对吗？

The tunnel was gently sloping downward.

隧道缓缓向下倾斜。

And the smell-- you may be wondering about the smell.

还有气味——你可能想知道这种气味。

It's like wet earth, musty.

就像潮湿的泥土，发霉了。

The bear brings in a nest of, like, pine tree boughs and other sticks and stuff.

熊带来了一个由松树枝和其他棍子之类的东西组成的巢。

So it does kind of smell cedary and nice, too.

所以它确实有一点雪松的味道，也很好闻。

Hmm.

唔。

Jeff Like, it's musty, but it's honestly not as bad as what you would think.

杰夫：就像，它有霉味，但说实话，它并没有你想象的那么糟糕。

Because when a bear goes into hibernation-- Wes will give you a lot more scientific name on this, but they create, like, a butt plug of, like, poop, so that they won't poop the entire time they're in their den.

因为当熊进入冬眠状态时——韦斯会给你更多关于这一点的科学名称，但它们会创造出一个像粪便的屁股塞，这样它们就不会在它们的巢穴里的整个过程中大便。

So there's, like, no feces or urine in there.

所以里面没有粪便或尿液。

So it honestly isn't terrible.

所以老实说这并不可怕。

They may be 15, 20, 25 feet into the tunnel, and Wes's headlamp points at the far end.

他们可能距离隧道 15、20、25 英尺，韦斯的头灯指向远端。

And I just see these two green eyes at the very end of this tunnel, staring back at me.

我只看到隧道尽头有两只绿眼睛，正盯着我。

And the thing about these hibernating bears is they-- bears don't hibernate very deeply.

这些冬眠熊的特点是——熊冬眠的深度并不深。

So if a bear hears you approaching its den, it can come out of that hibernation, and generally, within 5 to 10 minutes, they can be mobile.

因此，如果熊听到您接近它的巢穴，它就会从冬眠中醒来，通常在 5 到 10 分钟内，它们就可以活动了。

And so this bear was awake.

于是这只熊就醒了。

And they have the tapetum lucidum, which is the thing you see in cats' eyes or deer eyes or whatever that reflects light back at you.

它们有绒毡层，这是你在猫眼或鹿眼或任何能将光反射回你身上的东西上看到的东西。

And they reflect a really kind of green glow.

它们反射出一种真正的绿色光芒。

And so it's just, again, the stuff of nightmares.

所以这又是一场噩梦。

Like, you're crawling down a deep, dark hole in the mountains, and there's two green eyes shining back at you.

就像，你正从山上一个又深又黑的洞里爬下去，然后有两只绿色的眼睛在向你闪光。

The light starts to catch these two eyeballs at the very end of the den that are just, like, gleaming back at us.

光线开始吸引位于巢穴尽头的两个眼球，它们就像在向我们闪闪发光。

So at that point, I'm, like, terrified.

所以在那一点上，我很害怕。

And I start kind of freaking out.

我开始有点害怕。

I start saying, Wes, this is crazy, this is crazy.

我开始说，韦斯，这太疯狂了，这太疯狂了。

Like, I don't know about this.

比如说，我不知道这件事。

And Jeff just started saying, we shouldn't be here, we shouldn't be here, we shouldn't be here.

杰夫开始说，我们不应该在这里，我们不应该在这里，我们不应该在这里。

It was like a mantra that he was repeating.

他就像是在重复着一句咒语。

And it was starting to really freak me out.

这真的开始让我感到害怕。

Like, I was trying to summon all this courage and draw on all my experience, and then I have him behind me telling me that we just should not be in there.

就像，我试图鼓起所有勇气并利用我所有的经验，然后他在我身后告诉我我们不应该在那里。

And so I turned around.

于是我转过身来。

And then Wes just goes, Jeff, shut up.

然后韦斯就走了，杰夫，闭嘴。

[CHUCKLES] So then my immediate response was like, you're so brave.

[笑] 所以我的第一反应是，你太勇敢了。

[CHUCKLES]

[笑声]

And then, he just started repeating, you're the bravest person I've ever met, you're the bravest person I've ever met.

然后，他开始重复，你是我见过的最勇敢的人，你是我见过的最勇敢的人。

And that helped, actually.

实际上，这很有帮助。

That made me feel a lot better.

这让我感觉好多了。

It's funny how he needs to keep saying something to have some place to put his fear.

有趣的是，他需要不断地说些什么才能有地方发泄他的恐惧。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

I think, for him, he needed to vocalize that, and for me, I was really going inward and just trying to focus on the bear.

我认为，对他来说，他需要大声说出这一点，而对我来说，我真的很向内，只是想把注意力集中在熊身上。

And I was looking for any cues that that bear was going to be aggressive.

我正在寻找任何表明那只熊将具有攻击性的线索。

And at that point, you leave.

那时，你就离开了。

What are you watching for?

你在看什么？

Wes They make a really distinctive [HUFFING] sound when they're really, really upset.

韦斯 当他们非常非常沮丧时，他们会发出一种非常独特的[哈芬]声音。

And then, they also can-- they make this really interesting jaw-popping noise, too.

然后，他们也可以——他们也会发出这种非常有趣的、令人瞠目结舌的声音。

It literally clacks its jaws.

它确实会打响它的下巴。

It pops its jaws.

它张开下巴。

It's kind of like a [CLICKING] sound.

有点像[咔哒]声。

And then from there, it proceeds to swatting the ground with its paws.

然后从那里开始，它用爪子拍打地面。

And then if it is still upset, it'll bluff-charge you.

如果它仍然不高兴，它就会虚张声势地向你收费。

And a bluff charge is just where the bear comes at you, and then stops short.

虚张声势的冲锋就是熊冲向你，然后突然停下来的地方。

Are you terrified?

你害怕吗？

Wes Oh, yeah.

韦斯 哦，是的。

Oh, yeah, I was absolutely terrified.

哦，是的，我真的很害怕。

I have a video that I took when I got close to the bear.

我有一段视频，是我靠近熊时拍的。

I took a quick video from my phone.

我用手机拍了一段简短的视频。

And at the very end of it, you just hear me say, this is so scary.

在最后，你只会听到我说，这太可怕了。

[AUDIO PLAYBACK] Wes (OUT OF BREATH) OK.

[音频回放] 韦斯（上气不接下气）好的。

Oh, this is so fucking scary.

哦，这太他妈可怕了。

This is so scary.

这太可怕了。

[END PLAYBACK] Wes Because it really was.

[回放结束] 韦斯 因为确实如此。

It was terrifying.

太可怕了。

[AUDIO PLAYBACK] Wes [PANTING] Oh my gosh.

[音频回放]韦斯[气喘吁吁]哦天哪。

[END PLAYBACK] Wes All of my body, a lot of my psyche was saying, you absolutely need to get out of this den.

[回放结束] 韦斯：我全身心都在说，你绝对需要离开这个巢穴。

It's this feeling of being a soft, pink human being in a place where we don't belong.

这是一种在我们不属于的地方成为一个柔软的、粉红色的人的感觉。

Of course, Wes, being in the tunnel with this bear-- he's a bear expert.

当然，韦斯，和这只熊一起在隧道里——他是熊专家。

And he's thought some about what this experience must have been like for the bear.

他思考了这次经历对于这只熊来说一定是什么样的。

Where these black bears live, they're top dog.

在这些黑熊居住的地方，它们是顶级狗。

There's nothing bigger or more dangerous than them.

没有什么比它们更大或更危险的了。

And so they don't have stuff that crawls into their dens and gets closer and closer to them.

因此，它们没有东西爬进它们的巢穴并离它们越来越近。

So it must be a very unique experience for them as well.

所以这对他们来说也一定是一次非常独特的经历。

Like, I'm obviously a bear.

就像，我显然是一只熊。

Like, what the hell is this thing doing in here?

就像，这东西到底在这里做什么？

Wait, when the bear sees you, like, it knows it can kick your ass, right?

等等，当熊看到你时，它知道它可以踢你的屁股，对吗？

Like, it can just look at you, and it doesn't even-- without even thinking or doing any math in its head or something, it just sees your size, and it just knows, well, you're not a threat.

就像，它可以只是看着你，它甚至不思考或做任何数学计算什么的，它只是看到你的大小，它就知道，好吧，你不是威胁。

But then, is it scared?

但话又说回来，它害怕吗？

Yeah, you know, I think the thing that we have to realize with wild animals is that for them, a fight means much more than can I win or will I lose.

是的，你知道，我认为对于野生动物，我们必须认识到，对它们来说，一场战斗的意义远大于我能赢或输。

It's like, am I going to be injured in this?

就像，我会因此受伤吗？

Because for any animal, bears included, if they sustain a big injury in any kind of scuffle or fight or whatever, that could be a death sentence for them.

因为对于任何动物来说，包括熊，如果它们在任何形式的扭打或打斗或其他什么中受到严重伤害，那可能对它们宣判死刑。

Because then they no longer have the ability to feed or escape or even move.

因为那时它们不再有进食、逃跑甚至移动的能力。

And so they tend to be very risk-averse.

因此他们往往非常厌恶风险。

So Wes and Jeff keep army-crawling forward with a syringe full of sedative on the end of a 7-foot pole.

因此，韦斯和杰夫在一根 7 英尺长的杆子末端拿着装满镇静剂的注射器，继续像军队一样爬行。

And finally, Wes gets close enough to jab it into the bear.

最后，韦斯足够近，将它刺入了熊身上。

Mission accomplished, right?

任务完成了，对吗？

But we jab it.

但我们戳它。

The bear doesn't react at all.

熊完全没有反应。

Doesn't flinch, and most important, does not fall asleep, partly because it'd gotten so big since they'd last seen it-- like, 350 pounds-- which would require way more sedative than West gave it.

不会退缩，最重要的是，不会睡着，部分原因是自从他们上次看到它以来，它已经变得太大了——大约 350 磅——这需要比韦斯特给予的镇静剂更多的镇静剂。

So the two of them head back out of the cave to prepare another dose of sedative, which they definitely are going to need.

于是，他们两个就从山洞里出来，准备另一剂他们肯定需要的镇静剂。

That job goes to Jeff, the little brother.

这项工作交给了弟弟杰夫。

And it was something I was fully capable of doing, but I think I was still just dialed up all the way to 11, with all my emotions, and my thoughts weren't clear.

这是我完全有能力做的事情，但我想我仍然只是一直拨到11，带着我所有的情绪，我的想法并不清晰。

So I was doing a terrible job.

所以我的工作做得很糟糕。

Yeah, I'm just making a mess.

是的，我只是把事情弄得一团糟。

I'm, like, fumbling around.

我就像在摸索。

And eventually, the bear, like, makes its way all the way through the 80 feet of den and starts coming out.

最终，这只熊一路穿过 80 英尺的巢穴并开始出来。

This is not the plan.

这不是计划。

It would be very bad for a tranq'd-out bear to leave its den at all.

对于一头昏迷过去的熊来说，离开它的巢穴是非常糟糕的。

It could easily wander off and get lost in the snow in the middle of winter.

在隆冬时节，它很容易在雪地里迷路和迷路。

And Wes and Jeff-- remember, they're bear guys.

韦斯和杰夫——记住，他们是熊人。

They do anything they can think of so the bears in this research don't get hurt by it, and experience the minimum amount of discomfort or stress.

他们会做任何他们能想到的事情，这样研究中的熊就不会受到伤害，并将不适或压力降到最低。

They have another field tech with them who's been waiting outside the tunnel.

他们还有另一名现场技术人员，他一直在隧道外等待。

And Wes orders that guy now, keep the bear in the den.

韦斯现在命令那个家伙，把熊留在巢穴里。

And the guy starts swatting at the bear with a plastic shovel to keep it from emerging.

那家伙开始用塑料铲子猛击熊，防止它出现。

And it just does not care.

它只是不在乎。

It's not even registering that he's there and just keeps walking past him.

它甚至没有注意到他在那里，只是一直从他身边走过。

Wow.

哇。

Wes So yeah.

韦斯 所以是的。

So at that point, I ran.

所以那个时候我就跑了。

And the thing that I really didn't want to have happen was the drug take hold while this bear was trying to get away and have it tumble down the hillside or down a cliffside or something like that.

我真的不希望发生的事情是，当这只熊试图逃跑并让它从山坡上或悬崖边上或类似的地方滚下来时，药物就占据了主导地位。

I just wasn't willing to let that happen.

我只是不愿意让这种事发生。

So I ran and actually grabbed the bear by its back legs and pulled them out from under it.

于是我跑过去，抓住了熊的后腿，把它们从熊的下面拉了出来。

And then I straddled the bear and pushed its head down into the snow.

然后我跨坐在熊身上，把它的头按进雪里。

In the meantime, I had sent--

与此同时，我已经发送了——

Wait, wait, wait, wait.

等等，等等，等等，等等。

What are you-- what are you talking about?

你在说什么？

You're able to do that because the bear is kind of like-- is the bear walking like a sort of cartoon drunk bear kind of thing?

你之所以能做到这一点，是因为熊有点像——熊走路时像卡通醉熊一样吗？

Like, it's staggering along?

就像，它是令人震惊的吗？

Yeah, that's honestly exactly how it was walking.

是的，老实说，它就是这样走路的。

That's a perfect representation.

这是一个完美的体现。

[CHUCKLING] Ira Glass So he's on top of this bear, straddling it, holding its collar and head down in the snow.

[咯咯笑]艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：所以他骑在这只熊的身上，跨坐在它身上，把它的项圈和头埋在雪里。

He's actually gotten a second dose of sedative into him by then, but the bear is still awake.

那时他实际上已经注射了第二剂镇静剂，但熊仍然醒着。

And Wes then looks over at Jeff, who is so panicked that he has dropped the entire case of drugs.

然后韦斯看向杰夫，杰夫非常惊慌，以至于扔掉了整箱毒品。

Jeff is supposed to be preparing a third dose.

杰夫应该正在准备第三剂。

And I just yell at Jeff.

我只是对杰夫大喊大叫。

I say, Jeff, come grab this bear.

我说，杰夫，来抓住这只熊。

I'll do the drugs.

我会做药。

Kind of an unusual set of sentences to say to anybody.

对任何人来说这都是一套不寻常的句子。

They switch places.

他们交换位置。

Jeff is now the one straddling the bear, hands on its collar.

杰夫现在骑在熊身上，双手放在熊的项圈上。

And the bear gets up and starts to move again.

熊站起来并再次开始移动。

And it's almost like-- you know that movie, The Replacements, where Keanu Reeves is a quarterback?

这几乎就像——你知道那部电影《替身》中基努·里维斯是四分卫吗？

Or any of the football movies where the big hefty lineman catches the ball?

或者有哪部足球电影里有大块头边锋接住球的吗？

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Jeff And then they're just, like, slowly moving towards the end zone, and the whole defense jumps on him, and they're just kind of, like, falling off of him and trucking...

杰夫然后他们就像，慢慢地向达阵区移动，整个防守都跳到他身上，他们就像从他身上掉下来然后卡车运过来......

And he's still going towards the goal line?

他仍然朝着球门线前进吗？

Yeah,

是的，

...is going in a straight line with all these people hanging on him?

……这么多人都抓着他，他要走直线吗？

It's kind of like that.

有点像那样。

We were just hanging on this black bear, and it's just, like, slowly going in a straight line.

我们只是挂在这只黑熊身上，它就像慢慢地沿着一条直线前进。

Jeff's holding it by the collar, getting dragged along-- slowing it down a little bit, but that's all he can do, in this thing with this bear where none of the normal rules apply, totally off the map.

杰夫抓住它的衣领，被拖着走——稍微放慢了速度，但这就是他所能做的，在这件事上，这只熊没有任何正常的规则适用，完全脱离了地图。

I was like, this is what I have to do, but I can't believe I'm doing it.

我当时想，这就是我必须做的，但我不敢相信我正在这样做。

It was, like, surreal.

这有点超现实。

Like, I just-- it's like I was in a dream.

就像，我只是——就像我在梦中一样。

It starts making its way to more of a downward slope, too, so now, it's really hard for me to stop it.

它也开始走下坡路，所以现在，我真的很难阻止它。

And I'm just kind of, like, on the back of it.

我只是有点，就像，在它的后面。

And it walks straight into a pine tree, and literally, like, couldn't figure out what was going on and just tried to keep walking forward into a tree.

它径直走到一棵松树上，从字面上看，就像，不知道发生了什么，只是试图继续向前走，撞到一棵树上。

Wes remembers it more like a juniper bush, but in any case, it does the job.

韦斯记得它更像是杜松树丛，但无论如何，它确实起到了作用。

The bear stops, finally passes out on the ground.

熊停了下来，最后昏倒在地上。

They do their business, change the collar, examine the bear.

他们做自己的事情，更换项圈，检查熊。

And then, so the bear doesn't get lost and confused in the snow when it wakes up, they grab its limbs and drag it 15 yards or so back up the slope to the opening of the tunnel, which is exactly as completely exhausting as you would imagine.

然后，为了让熊醒来时不会在雪地里迷路和困惑，他们抓住它的四肢，将它拖回斜坡上 15 码左右，到达隧道的开口处，这与你想象的完全一样，筋疲力尽。

It takes maybe half an hour.

大概需要半个小时。

The temperature is dropping.

气温正在下降。

Wes is worried that the bear might get cold, so he leaves a blanket on top of him before they go.

韦斯担心这只熊会着凉，所以在他们离开之前，他在他身上留了一条毯子。

Looking back, what Wes and Jeff both talk about is the terror that they felt in that tunnel.

回想起来，韦斯和杰夫谈论的都是他们在隧道中感受到的恐惧。

Wes says it was a whole new level of fear he didn't know existed, like the kind of primal fear that, long ago, humans must have had all the time facing off with animals that wanted to kill them and eat them.

韦斯说，这是一种全新的恐惧水平，他不知道这种恐惧的存在，就像很久以前，人类必须一直面对那些想要杀死他们并吃掉他们的动物的那种原始恐惧。

And it's something that we've forgotten, but I think it's something that still sits deep inside of us, that when you do have these experiences with large animals, that it bubbles to the surface.

这是我们已经忘记的事情，但我认为它仍然深深地存在于我们内心深处，当你确实有过与大型动物接触的经历时，它就会浮出水面。

And in a way, it was really intoxicating.

从某种程度上来说，这确实令人陶醉。

I'll tell you, that night, I didn't sleep a wink, because my adrenaline was just coursing through my body.

我告诉你，那天晚上我没有合眼，因为我的肾上腺素在我的身体里流动。

It just made me feel-- honestly, made me feel very alive.

老实说，这让我感觉自己充满活力。

And even when I think back on that, I can still remember the feelings I had that night as I went back to my cabin and everything, just how bright the stars seemed and how crisp the air felt.

即使当我回想起来时，我仍然记得那天晚上我回到我的小屋时的感受以及一切，星星看起来多么明亮，空气感觉多么清新。

And it really just reminded me how good it is to be alive.

它确实提醒了我活着是多么美好。

And the bear?

那熊呢？

The bear was fine.

那只熊很好。

The drugs they gave it, it probably doesn't remember the details of what happened, Wes said.

韦斯说，他们给它的药物，它可能不记得发生的事情的细节。

And over a year later, Wes went back to that tunnel when the bear wasn't in it and found the blanket inside.

一年多后，当熊不在里面时，韦斯回到了那个隧道，并在里面发现了毯子。

The bear must have liked it a little.

小熊一定有点喜欢它。

It smelled like bear, fur all over it.

它闻起来像熊，浑身上下都是毛皮。

Wes took it back, kept it as a souvenir.

韦斯把它拿回来，留作纪念。

He says it still smells faintly like bear.

他说它仍然有淡淡的熊味。

After the break, we have another story of people thrown into a dangerous and utterly foreseeable situation, and how they handle it, in this episode that we're calling "The Bear at the End of the Tunnel." Wes and Jeff, by the way, have a podcast where they tell stories of animal attacks.

休息后，我们有另一个故事，讲述人们陷入危险且完全可预见的境地，以及他们如何处理它，在这一集我们称之为“隧道尽头的熊”。顺便说一句，韦斯和杰夫有一个播客，讲述动物袭击的故事。

It's called Tooth and Claw.

这就是所谓的“牙齿和利爪”。

If you enjoyed this story that you just heard, you should know that by their standards, this story was not so special.

如果你喜欢刚刚听到的这个故事，你应该知道，按照他们的标准，这个故事并没有那么特别。

The ones on their show-- way more eventful.

他们的节目中的人物——更加多事。

More in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.

当我们的节目继续时，芝加哥公共广播电台将提供更多信息。

It's This American life from Ira Glass.

这就是艾拉·格拉斯的《美国生活》。

Today's program, again-- "The Bear at the End of the Tunnel," stories of people who find themselves trapped in some dangerous situation, and now they just have to deal.

今天的节目又是——“隧道尽头的熊”，讲述人们发现自己陷入危险境地，现在他们必须应对的故事。

We have arrived at Act Two of our show.

我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。

Act Two-- "The Devil's in the Details.

第二幕——“细节决定成败。

And There Are so Many Details."

还有很多细节。”

So a few months ago, we brought you this story from one of our producers, Miki Meek, about an OB/GYN in rural Idaho who was deciding whether or not to leave the state after Roe versus Wade was overturned and abortion was outlawed there.

几个月前，我们为您带来了我们的制片人米基·米克 (Miki Meek) 的故事，讲述的是爱达荷州乡村的一名妇产科医生在罗伊诉韦德案被推翻、堕胎在该州被禁止后决定是否离开该州。

I don't want to leave here.

我不想离开这里。

I mean, I don't want to leave, but I don't know if I can stay.

我的意思是，我不想离开，但我不知道我是否可以留下来。

This OB/GYN, Amelia Huntsberger, was facing in Idaho a set of abortion laws that kicked in after Roe was overturned that are some of the most restrictive in the country.

这位妇产科医生阿米莉亚·亨茨伯格 (Amelia Huntsberger) 在爱达荷州面临着罗伊案被推翻后生效的一系列堕胎法，这些法律是该国限制最严格的法律之一。

And can I just say, I think when most of us think of these laws, we think of their effect on abortion clinics and abortion care providers.

我只能说，我认为当我们大多数人想到这些法律时，我们会想到它们对堕胎诊所和堕胎护理提供者的影响。

That wasn't this story.

那不是这个故事。

Amelia was a general OB/GYN at a hospital-- in other words, doing pap smears, birth control, delivering babies.

阿米莉亚是一家医院的普通妇产科医生——换句话说，负责做子宫颈抹片检查、节育、接生。

And her hospital did not terminate pregnancies unless there was a medical complication-- which, by the way, is like most hospitals in the United States.

除非出现医疗并发症，否则她的医院不会终止妊娠——顺便说一句，这就像美国的大多数医院一样。

But when Roe was overturned and these new laws in Idaho took effect, they defined abortion in the broadest possible terms.

但当罗伊案被推翻并且这些新法律在爱达荷州生效时，他们以最广泛的术语定义了堕胎。

It was effectively a complete ban.

这实际上是一项彻底的禁令。

Even pregnancies that weren't going to be viable could not be terminated.

即使是无法存活的妊娠也无法终止。

And any doctor who performed an abortion, breaking those rules, faced severe consequences.

任何违反这些规则而进行堕胎的医生都会面临严重的后果。

They could lose their medical license, they could go to prison for two to five years, and they could get sued.

他们可能会被吊销行医执照，可能会入狱两到五年，还可能会被起诉。

Family members could sue.

家庭成员可以提起诉讼。

If a rape resulted in a pregnancy and the victim decided to get an abortion, the rapist's family could sue the doctor for performing the abortion.

如果强奸导致怀孕，而受害者决定堕胎，强奸者的家人可以起诉实施堕胎的医生。

And the problem for Amelia, this OB/GYN, is that she ran into all kinds of situations where, in the course of administering normal health care for her patients, she could run afoul of the law.

阿米莉亚（Amelia）这位妇产科医生面临的问题是，她在为患者提供正常医疗保健的过程中遇到了各种可能触犯法律的情况。

For instance, if a patient showed up at her hospital miscarrying and bleeding uncontrollably, in the past, Amelia could terminate the pregnancy to stop the bleeding.

例如，如果一个病人在她的医院出现流产和失控出血，在过去，阿米莉亚可以终止妊娠以止血。

But now, she could be charged with a felony if she did that, if she did anything to terminate a pregnancy, if it still had a, quote, "fetal heartbeat." That's a phrase in the law, though in the early stages, it's not a heartbeat.

但现在，如果她这样做，如果她采取任何措施终止妊娠，如果仍然有“胎儿心跳”，她可能会被指控犯有重罪。这是法律上的一句话，尽管在早期阶段，这并不是一个心跳。

It's just electrical activity and some tissue that could eventually become a heart.

这只是电活动和一些最终可能成为心脏的组织。

So now, when Amelia faced pregnancies with serious complications, situations where the longer she waited to act, the more danger the patient was in, she could no longer just think about what was best for the patient who was in front of her.

所以现在，当阿米莉亚面临怀孕时出现严重并发症，等待时间越长，病人的危险就越大时，她不能再只考虑什么对眼前的病人最好。

You know, when you do surgery like that, where somebody is having ongoing active bleeding, that's already high stress.

你知道，当你做这样的手术时，如果有人持续活动性出血，那就已经是很大的压力了。

And that sort of high stress-- like, I trained for that.

那种高压力——就像，我为此进行了训练。

I know what to do with that.

我知道该怎么办。

I can handle that.

我能处理好。

Then you add in this other weird layer of, like, is her brother going to not understand that this was a not-viable pregnancy and that her life was at risk?

然后你再加上另一个奇怪的层，比如，她哥哥是否会不明白这是一次无法存活的怀孕，并且她的生命处于危险之中？

And what about her mom?

那她妈妈呢？

What about her partner?

她的伴侣呢？

What about her sister?

她姐姐呢？

Do these people understand how serious this condition is?

这些人知道这种情况有多严重吗？

Or do they only understand that I removed a pregnancy that had a heartbeat?

或者他们只知道我切除了有心跳的妊娠？

I don't know.

我不知道。

How am I supposed to know?

我怎么知道？

So she worried about getting sued.

所以她担心被起诉。

She worried about getting prosecuted.

她担心会被起诉。

This came up all the time.

这个问题一直都在出现。

At the end of our story back in March, Amelia was still hanging on in Idaho, still deciding.

在我们三月份的故事结束时，阿米莉亚仍在爱达荷州坚持，仍在做出决定。

Since then, so much has happened.

从那时起，发生了很多事情。

Just a few weeks after we aired that story, Amelia decided she was going to move away because of Idaho's abortion laws.

就在我们播出这个故事几周后，阿米莉亚决定因为爱达荷州的堕胎法而搬走。

She was one of the first OB/GYNs in the state to announce she was going.

她是该州第一批宣布要去的妇产科医生之一。

About a week after that, something that she feared might happen someday happened a lot quicker than she had imagined.

大约一周后，她担心有一天会发生的事情发生得比她想象的要快得多。

The hospital where she practiced-- Bonner General Health-- announced that it was shutting down its entire labor and delivery department.

她所在的医院——邦纳综合健康中心——宣布将关闭整个待产和分娩部门。

The hospital cited the new laws as one reason.

医院引用新法律作为原因之一。

They said recruiting new doctors would be, quote, "extremely difficult." Finances was the other reason.

他们表示，招募新医生将“极其困难”。财务是另一个原因。

Since then, all three of the other OB/GYNs who shared a practice with Amelia have left the state.

从那时起，与阿米莉亚共用诊所的其他三名妇产科医生都离开了该州。

What Amelia dreaded most in moving away was, what was going to happen to her patients?

阿米莉亚搬走后最担心的是，她的病人会发生什么？

How would all this affect everyone in Idaho trying to have a baby?

这一切会对爱达荷州想要生孩子的每个人产生什么影响？

We thought about that for today's show, because what would happen to them?

我们在今天的节目中考虑了这一点，因为他们会发生什么？

This was, in a sense, the bear in the tunnel-- the difficulties and possible danger that all those patients face because of the new laws.

从某种意义上说，这就是隧道中的熊——所有这些患者因新法律而面临的困难和可能的危险。

And what has unfolded since has been pretty dramatic.

此后发生的事情非常引人注目。

Our producer, Miki Meek, went back to talk to patients and to the lawmakers who put them into the situation that they're in in the state.

我们的制片人米基·米克（Miki Meek）回去与患者和立法者交谈，他们将他们置于该州的处境中。

Here's Miki.

这是米基。

I talked to half a dozen pregnant women who'd been planning to deliver at Bonner General and suddenly found themselves contorting their lives around logistical problems they had never imagined facing for something as everyday as trying to have a baby in the state of Idaho.

我与六位原本计划在邦纳将军医院分娩的孕妇进行了交谈，她们突然发现自己的生活因后勤问题而扭曲，她们从未想象过在爱达荷州生孩子这样的日常事务会面临这些问题。

Brooke Macumber is 25 years old and was days away from giving birth when I reached her.

布鲁克·麦康伯 (Brooke Macumber) 25 岁，当我找到她时，距离分娩还有几天。

Amelia had been her doctor, and Brooke's plan had been to do her prenatal appointments at Bonner General and deliver there, too.

阿米莉亚是她的医生，布鲁克的计划是在邦纳总医院进行产前预约并在那里分娩。

But now, the closest Idaho hospital with a labor and delivery department was almost two hours away, in a small city called Coeur d'Alene.

但现在，距离最近的爱达荷州医院（设有待产科）有近两个小时的路程，位于一个名叫科达伦的小城市。

She had to take her three little kids with her in the car on a four-hour round trip for every prenatal appointment-- blood pressure, fetal heartbeat.

每次产前检查，她都必须带着三个小孩在车里来回四个小时——测量血压、胎儿心跳。

Four hours for a 15-minute check-in.

15 分钟办理登机手续需要 4 小时。

The days that we would have to go out to Coeur d'Alene, it was, like, from 9:30 to 6 o'clock at night.

我们必须去科达伦的日子，大概是晚上 9:30 到 6 点。

I would have my sister-- she lives in Spokane, so she's about 35 minutes from Coeur d'Alene.

我想让我姐姐——她住在斯波坎，所以她距离科达伦大约 35 分钟路程。

But she would hang out with the kids so I could go to my appointment.

但她会和孩子们一起出去玩，这样我就可以去赴约。

And then we would have to go out for lunch or do a picnic, and then go to a park.

然后我们必须出去吃午饭或野餐，然后去公园。

Because I'm like, they can't just sit in the car for four hours back to back.

因为我想，他们不能就这样连续四个小时坐在车里。

The distance of the hospital also worried her.

医院的距离也让她担心。

She was freaked out about not getting to the hospital in time and giving birth on the side of the road.

她因为没有及时赶到医院而在路边生下孩子而感到害怕。

Her labors have always been pretty fast.

她的分娩速度一直都很快。

Would she have time to make it to the hospital?

她有时间去医院吗？

When Brooke got three weeks away from her due date, she couldn't take being on high alert all the time.

当布鲁克距离预产期还有三周时，她无法忍受一直保持高度警惕。

So she moved in with her mom, who lived two hours away, close to Brooke's new hospital.

于是她搬去和妈妈住在一起，妈妈住在布鲁克的新医院附近，离她有两个小时的路程。

Brooke took the kids with her.

布鲁克带着孩子们一起去。

Her husband couldn't join them because of work, and her mom was working every day.

她的丈夫因为工作不能和他们在一起，而她的妈妈每天都在工作。

So Brooke was caring for three little kids, basically on her own at eight months pregnant.

因此，怀孕八个月的布鲁克基本上独自一人照顾三个孩子。

It was hard to leave her husband.

离开她的丈夫很难。

But splitting up their family temporarily was the only solution they could come up with.

但暂时拆散一家人，却是他们唯一能想到的解决办法。

Me and my husband have never really been apart before, and so being in a bed alone has been strange.

我和我丈夫以前从未真正分开过，所以单独躺在床上很奇怪。

And then our two boys-- they've had some trouble sleeping, so they'll wake up in the middle of the night.

然后我们的两个儿子——他们睡眠有些困难，所以他们会在半夜醒来。

So then both the boys will crawl into bed with me, and then I wind up, like, on the couch, because I'm like, I need to try to at least get one more hour of rest.

然后两个男孩都会和我一起爬上床，然后我就躺在沙发上，因为我想，我需要尝试至少再休息一小时。

Bonner General had been the only labor and delivery unit in its region of northern Idaho.

邦纳总公司是爱达荷州北部地区唯一的分娩单位。

When it shut down, it became a statistic in a whole separate longstanding crisis-- the closure of labor and delivery services in rural hospitals all over the country.

当它关闭时，它成为了一场完全独立的长期危机的统计数据——全国各地乡村医院的分娩和分娩服务关闭。

Nearly half of rural community hospitals no longer offer obstetrics care.

近一半的农村社区医院不再提供产科护理。

The chaos created by Bonner General's closure for the women I spoke with involved the most basic important stuff-- childcare, money.

邦纳将军百货公司的关闭给我采访过的女性带来了混乱，涉及最基本的重要问题——儿童保育、金钱。

Some women told me they would lose a day's worth of pay every time they had to drive to an appointment.

一些女性告诉我，每次她们必须开车去赴约，她们就会损失一天的工资。

They talked about having to budget hundreds or even thousands of extra dollars for travel or housing in a place closer to a labor and delivery department, or switching to a midwife not covered by insurance.

他们谈到必须额外预算数百甚至数千美元用于前往靠近分娩部门的地方旅行或住宿，或者改用不受保险覆盖的助产士。

Or if they went to another state to get care, insurance might not cover that either.

或者，如果他们去另一个州接受护理，保险也可能不承保。

I talked to one woman who told me she bought helicopter insurance for a medical evacuation flight, in case she started hemorrhaging or had some other kind of emergency complication.

我与一位女士交谈，她告诉我她为医疗后送航班购买了直升机保险，以防她开始出血或出现其他紧急并发症。

Turns out it's cheaper than you'd think-- $75.

结果比你想象的要便宜——75 美元。

And she wasn't the only one.

而且她不是唯一一个。

Helicopter insurance for normal pregnancies.

正常怀孕的直升机保险。

This woman's name is Jessie Grossman.

这个女人的名字叫杰西·格罗斯曼。

She's 32 years old, and this was her first kid.

她今年32岁，这是她的第一个孩子。

And in Idaho, she worried the abortion laws tied doctors hands in too many cases.

在爱达荷州，她担心堕胎法在太多情况下束缚了医生的手脚。

So I decided-- what I put in my birth plan was that if we do have to transfer to the hospital, I want to be taken to Washington.

所以我决定——我在我的分娩计划中加入的是，如果我们确实必须转移到医院，我想被带到华盛顿。

Like, I can be less worried about dying, basically.

就像，基本上我可以不那么担心死亡了。

But you know, then of course, I'm just spiraling about, well, what if the worst-case scenario happens?

但你知道，当然，我只是在盘旋，好吧，如果最坏的情况发生怎么办？

And what if I have sepsis?

如果我患有败血症怎么办？

Is the helicopter going to be able to get us to Spokane in time?

直升机能及时送我们到斯波坎吗？

And just this, like, "am I going to die," "is my baby going to die," like, fear.

就像“我会死吗”，“我的孩子会死吗”之类的，恐惧。

And there's no guarantees.

而且没有任何保证。

For anyone-- pregnant person, doctor, anyone-- who might want to look at the maternal mortality statistics in Idaho since the new laws passed, the state used to have a committee that tracked maternal deaths and their causes.

对于任何人——孕妇、医生、任何人——如果想了解新法律通过后爱达荷州孕产妇死亡率统计数据，该州曾经有一个委员会来跟踪孕产妇死亡及其原因。

But it doesn't anymore.

但现在不再这样了。

The legislature decided not to renew it in its last session.

立法机关在上届会议上决定不再延长该法案。

Idaho is now the only state in the country without a committee like this.

爱达荷州现在是该国唯一没有这样的委员会的州。

So that's the situation for these women who just needed general OB/GYN care during their pregnancies.

这就是这些在怀孕期间只需要一般妇产科护理的女性的情况。

But then there are the high-risk patients, which includes, by the way, anyone who's expecting twins, anyone with high blood pressure or diabetes, anyone over 35, and anyone whose pregnancies include rare complications.

但还有一些高风险患者，顺便说一句，其中包括任何怀双胞胎的人、任何患有高血压或糖尿病的人、任何超过 35 岁的人，以及任何怀孕时出现罕见并发症的人。

These people are in a much more dire situation in Idaho now, because they may need what's called a maternal fetal medicine doctor.

这些人现在在爱达荷州的处境更加严峻，因为他们可能需要所谓的母胎医学医生。

These are highly skilled OB/GYNs, specialists at keeping both the fetus and the patient alive and healthy through these pregnancies.

这些是技术精湛的妇产科医生，是在怀孕期间保持胎儿和患者存活和健康的专家。

And these doctors have been leaving the state.

这些医生已经离开该州。

Kayla Smith had a maternal fetal medicine doctor.

凯拉·史密斯有一位母胎医学医生。

Her first pregnancy had complications, but things were going smoothly with this one.

她第一次怀孕时出现了并发症，但这次一切都很顺利。

It was a boy.

那是一个男孩。

She and her husband had picked out a name-- Brooks.

她和她的丈夫选定了一个名字——布鲁克斯。

And then, when she was 19 weeks, she went in for her anatomy scan.

然后，当她 19 周大时，她去做了解剖扫描。

And I just remember the sonograph.

我只记得超声波检查仪。

Like, I know they can't say anything, but she just kept going over his heart, like, quite a bit.

就像，我知道他们不能说什么，但她只是不断地触及他的心。

And so of course I'm, like, talking myself down, like, it's fine.

所以我当然会贬低自己，就像，没关系。

It's just different this time.

只是这次不同。

Like, each person has a different way of doing things.

就像，每个人都有不同的做事方式。

And then, it was just really quiet.

然后，就真的很安静了。

And then she left.

然后她就离开了。

And so Dr. Cooper walked into the room.

于是库珀博士走进了房间。

Dr. Kylie Cooper, her maternal fetal medicine specialist.

凯莉·库珀博士是她的母胎医学专家。

I just remember she had a diagram, and she-- I just remember her being like, I have never seen a heart defect this severe before.

我只记得她有一张图表，我只记得她说，我以前从未见过如此严重的心脏缺陷。

Like, they couldn't really see the baby's aorta at all.

就像，他们根本看不到婴儿的主动脉。

Like, his-- [SIGHS] I guess-- aortic arch wasn't really formed.

就像，他的——[叹气]我猜——主动脉弓还没有真正形成。

The only thing Kayla wanted to know was, could Brooks survive past birth?

凯拉唯一想知道的是，布鲁克斯能活过出生后吗？

She and her husband had already decided they could care for a child with special needs, so Dr. Cooper referred her to a pediatric cardiologist.

她和她的丈夫已经决定他们可以照顾一个有特殊需要的孩子，因此库珀医生将她转介给儿科心脏病专家。

But he told her, no. Brooks's chances of survival were very unlikely.

但他告诉她，不。布鲁克斯的生存机会非常渺茫。

He called some of the best pediatric hospitals in the country, and none of them could offer her a surgical option to fix his heart.

他给全国一些最好的儿科医院打电话，但没有一家医院能为她提供修复心脏的手术选择。

She remembers sitting in an ultrasound room with her doctor.

她记得和医生坐在超声波室里。

She's like, if you decide to continue this pregnancy, like, I'm here for you, and we will figure out what that means and where we need to go from here.

她就像，如果你决定继续怀孕，就像，我会在你身边，我们会弄清楚这意味着什么以及我们需要从这里走向何方。

She's like, but if you do decide that you did not want to continue this pregnancy, she's like, I'm just really sorry.

她会说，但如果你确实决定不想继续怀孕，她会说，我真的很抱歉。

(CRYING) There's nothing I personally can do for you.

（哭泣）我个人无能为力。

And you understood at that point, like, this is because of the laws.

那时你就明白了，这是因为法律。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

I mean, her hands were tied.

我的意思是，她的双手被绑住了。

I knew, I knew she was protecting herself.

我知道，我知道她是在保护自己。

But also, like, I would never ask her to be in that position.

但同样，我永远不会要求她处于那个位置。

Yeah, we just all kind of looked at each other like, what the hell do we do now?

是的，我们只是互相看着对方，我们现在到底要做什么？

Most patients like Kayla, whose pregnancies have what are called lethal and life-limiting fetal anomalies, choose termination, because continuing their pregnancies will result in miscarriage, stillbirth, or death shortly after delivery.

大多数像凯拉这样的患者，其怀孕时患有所谓的致命和限制生命的胎儿异常，都会选择终止妊娠，因为继续怀孕会导致流产、死产或产后不久死亡。

But Kayla's doctor could not offer her a termination.

但凯拉的医生无法终止她的妊娠。

Just a week or so before this, terminating a pregnancy like Brooks's would not have been considered an illegal abortion in Idaho.

就在大约一周前，像布鲁克斯这样终止妊娠在爱达荷州还不会被视为非法堕胎。

But now, under Idaho's new laws, it was.

但现在，根据爱达荷州的新法律，情况确实如此。

So Kayla started asking her doctor about, what if she did continue her pregnancy and delivered Brooks's?

于是凯拉开始询问她的医生，如果她继续怀孕并生下了布鲁克斯的孩子怎么办？

What would it be like for him?

对他来说会是什么样子？

Would he feel any pain during the birth?

生孩子的时候他会感到疼痛吗？

Would he suffer from air hunger, feel breathlessness as he gasped for air?

他会不会感到空气饥饿，呼吸困难而呼吸困难？

But of course, her doctor couldn't guarantee that he wouldn't feel anything, even with palliative care and morphine.

但当然，即使有姑息治疗和吗啡，她的医生也不能保证他不会有任何感觉。

So then it just also felt like there was only one option, and it wasn't one that we wanted to make.

所以感觉就像只有一种选择，而这不是我们想要做的。

But I don't want my son to suffer.

但我不想让我的儿子受苦。

I don't-- I'm not going to put myself through that and also risk my own life.

我不会——我不会让自己经历这些，也不会冒着生命危险。

Because Dr. Cooper kept reiterating to me, she's like, you have a 40% chance of getting preeclampsia again.

因为库珀医生不断向我重申，她说，你有 40% 的机会再次患上先兆子痫。

Preeclampsia is one of the leading causes of maternal mortality.

先兆子痫是孕产妇死亡的主要原因之一。

It usually involves a surge in blood pressure that can seriously harm or kill a pregnant patient.

它通常会导致血压升高，从而严重伤害或杀死孕妇。

It's unpredictable and hard to know when it'll happen and how severe it will be, which brings us to the main thing doctors find so frustrating about Idaho's new abortion laws.

这是不可预测的，很难知道它何时会发生以及会有多严重，这让我们看到了医生对爱达荷州新堕胎法感到如此沮丧的主要问题。

There's language in the law that says they can't terminate a pregnancy unless it's, quote, "to prevent the death of the pregnant woman." Dr. Cooper said she doesn't know what that means.

法律中有规定，除非“为了防止孕妇死亡”，否则不能终止妊娠。库珀博士说她不知道这意味着什么。

Does it mean she'd have to wait for Kayla to be near death's door from preeclampsia before she could intervene?

这是否意味着她必须等到凯拉因先兆子痫而濒临死亡，才能进行干预？

Her whole training-- all doctors' training-- is to stop problems before death ever becomes imminent.

她的全部训练——所有医生的训练——都是在死亡迫近之前阻止问题。

The only other situation where Dr. Cooper could terminate a pregnancy is if the fetal heartbeat stopped, if the fetus was dead.

库珀医生可以终止妊娠的唯一其他情况是胎儿心跳停止或胎儿死亡。

Kayla described her options in Idaho as a, quote, "shit buffet."

凯拉将她在爱达荷州的选择描述为“狗屎自助餐”。

So do I risk going to term, knowing that I'm not even going to have a son to take home, and risk my life, and not be there for my daughter?

那么，我是否会冒着足月的风险，因为我知道我什至不会有一个儿子可以带回家，冒着生命危险，而不是在我的女儿身边？

I mean, I want to make it very clear that I was, at that point, 20 weeks pregnant.

我的意思是，我想明确表示，当时我已经怀孕 20 周了。

Like, I could feel him move.

就像，我能感觉到他在动。

He was very active.

他非常活跃。

(EMOTIONALLY) And what that does to someone's mental health-- it's just devastating.

（情感上）这对某人的心理健康造成的影响是毁灭性的。

Because I felt-- I just felt trapped.

因为我感觉——我只是感觉被困住了。

There are some really dark thoughts that I never thought I would have thought.

有一些非常黑暗的想法是我从未想过的。

Things like, you know, is there a chance that his heart will stop?

比如，你知道，他的心脏有可能停止跳动吗？

Because I know here, where I'm currently at in Idaho, that would be a reason for them to help me.

因为我知道我现在在爱达荷州的什么地方，这将是他们帮助我的一个原因。

I heard this from other pregnant women in Idaho with lethal fetal anomalies.

我从爱达荷州其他患有致命胎儿异常的孕妇那里听说了这一点。

They found themselves wishing for the heartbeats to stop.

他们发现自己希望心跳停止。

Hearing that Brooks could suffer if he made it to term, Kayla decided to leave the state in order to end her pregnancy.

听说布鲁克斯如果足月出生可能会遭受痛苦，凯拉决定离开该州以结束怀孕。

She got an appointment at a hospital in Seattle, because she was so far along-- 21 weeks, second trimester.

她在西雅图的一家医院预约了，因为她已经怀孕 21 周了，处于妊娠中期。

And because it wasn't clear if her insurance was going to cover it, she had to pay almost $15,000 up front.

由于不清楚她的保险是否承保，她必须预先支付近 15,000 美元。

She and her husband took out a loan, and then drove seven and a half hours with their two-year-old daughter.

她和丈夫申请了一笔贷款，然后带着两岁的女儿开了七个半小时的车。

Kayla had a choice of how to end her pregnancy-- with a surgical procedure or by inducing labor early.

凯拉可以选择如何终止妊娠——通过外科手术或提前引产。

Kayla knew she wanted to induce.

凯拉知道她想引诱。

She delivered Brooks after 12 hours of labor.

经过 12 个小时的分娩，她生下了布鲁克斯。

He was stillborn.

他死了。

She says there was this weird eerie silence in the delivery room, and then everyone left so she and her husband could hold Brooks.

她说产房里出现了一种奇怪的、令人毛骨悚然的沉默，然后每个人都离开了，这样她和她的丈夫就可以抱布鲁克斯了。

There were things that came up after that were kind of-- like, someone just-- people saying, congratulations, like just walking in the room and--

之后出现的一些事情有点——就像，有人只是——人们说，恭喜，就像走进房间一样——

Right.

正确的。

[SIGHS] Right.

[叹气]对。

Miki Meek Brooks was cremated.

米基·米克·布鲁克斯被火化。

Two weeks later, Kayla made the seven and a half hour drive back to Seattle to pick up his ashes.

两周后，凯拉驱车七个半小时返回西雅图领取他的骨灰。

My parents would have, without a doubt, driven up to Seattle to get him if I needed them to, and brought him to us when they were able to come over here.

毫无疑问，如果我需要的话，我的父母会开车去西雅图接他，并在他们能够过来时把他带到我们这里。

But I just remember talking with my husband and being like, it doesn't make me feel good.

但我只记得和我丈夫交谈，这并不让我感觉良好。

Like, I feel like I just need to go.

就像，我觉得我只需要离开。

And he was like, then you just need to go.

他说，那你就走吧。

And so I drove-- I drove over to Seattle with my daughter.

于是我和女儿开车去了西雅图。

It was one of those things that I was like, I just need to be in charge of this, so I know what's happening.

这是我喜欢的事情之一，我只需要负责这件事，所以我知道发生了什么。

Kayla was the first case like this that her doctor, Dr. Cooper, handled after Idaho's abortion laws changed, her first case where she couldn't do anything to help.

凯拉是爱达荷州堕胎法修改后，她的医生库珀医生处理的第一个这样的病例，也是她无能为力的第一个病例。

Then there were more patients like Kayla she couldn't help.

然后还有更多像凯拉这样的病人，她却无法帮助。

And in April of this year, she was the first maternal fetal medicine doctor to leave Idaho because of its abortion laws.

今年四月，她成为第一位因爱达荷州堕胎法而离开爱达荷州的母胎医学医生。

There was already a shortage of these specialists in Idaho before the laws went into effect-- only nine in the entire state.

在法律生效之前，爱达荷州就已经出现了这些专家的短缺——全州只有九名。

Now, there are just five, and one of those will retire before the end of the year.

现在，只有五人，其中一人将在今年年底前退休。

That fear that every pregnant woman I talked to in Idaho had, that they'd be left totally on their own in a medical emergency, it happened to Becca, the last patient Dr. Cooper had to tell, I'm sorry, I can't help you, before she moved out of Idaho.

我在爱达荷州采访过的每一位孕妇都有这样的恐惧，担心她们在医疗紧急情况下会完全独自一人，这种情况发生在贝卡身上，她是库珀医生在搬出爱达荷州之前不得不告诉的最后一位病人，“对不起，我帮不了你”。

Becca is 31.

贝卡 31 岁了。

She lives in the Boise area and used to oversee a fitness club.

她住在博伊西地区，曾负责管理一家健身俱乐部。

She went to college on a pole-vaulting scholarship.

她凭借撑杆跳奖学金进入大学。

When she was about 16 weeks pregnant, she learned that her fetus had a genetic anomaly.

当她怀孕约16周时，她得知胎儿存在基因异常。

Multiple organs were developing abnormally, including its heart and kidneys.

多个器官发育异常，包括心脏和肾脏。

If she continued the pregnancy, she'd likely miscarry and was at risk for preeclampsia or severe hemorrhaging.

如果她继续怀孕，她可能会流产，并有患先兆子痫或严重出血的风险。

You know when you see in movies, and people get, like, a fatal diagnosis, and they just kind of go numb, and all you hear is a blabbering doctor in the background?

你知道吗，当你在电影中看到，人们得到了致命的诊断，然后他们就变得麻木了，而你听到的只是背景中一个喋喋不休的医生？

And I don't actually remember a whole lot of that conversation.

我实际上不记得那次谈话的全部内容。

I just remember sitting there and trying not to bawl my eyes out.

我只记得我坐在那里，努力不让自己的眼睛哭出来。

Because we'd wanted this one.

因为我们想要这个。

We wanted to grow our family.

我们想要扩大我们的家庭。

We tried for almost a whole year for this one.

为了这个，我们尝试了几乎一整年。

And we told people.

我们告诉人们。

We were like, yeah, we're pregnant.

我们当时就想，是的，我们怀孕了。

It's going to be exciting, you know.

你知道，这将会很令人兴奋。

And we think it's going to be a little girl or something, you know.

我们认为这将是一个小女孩或其他什么东西，你知道。

She decided to make the same choice Kayla made-- leave the state.

她决定做出与凯拉相同的选择——离开该州。

Becca drove to Portland, Oregon, to terminate her pregnancy at a clinic.

贝卡开车前往俄勒冈州波特兰市的一家诊所终止妊娠。

But that's not what she and her husband told their family and friends.

但这并不是她和她丈夫告诉家人和朋友的。

We were not comfortable being outright and telling them exactly why we were going to Portland.

我们不愿意直接告诉他们我们为什么要去波特兰。

So we told family and friends that we were going for genetic testing.

所以我们告诉家人和朋友我们要去基因检测。

Yeah.

是的。

Becca Just because it is so controversial right now in our state, and we didn't want to risk losing good relationships if it came down to it.

贝卡：只是因为它现在在我们州很有争议，我们不想冒着失去良好关系的风险。

Becca's story is different from Kayla's, because she wasn't able to get the full procedure.

贝卡的故事与凯拉的不同，因为她无法获得完整的程序。

The night before her appointment for a surgical termination, she started miscarrying.

在她预约进行手术终止的前一天晚上，她开始流产。

It was around midnight.

当时已是午夜时分。

She was at a hotel with her husband and two-year-old daughter, who were sleeping.

她和丈夫以及两岁的女儿在一家酒店里睡觉。

And I was just laying in bed, and I started counting and counting.

我躺在床上，开始数啊数。

And contractions were happening every 30 seconds.

宫缩每 30 秒发生一次。

And so the only thing that I kept thinking to myself was like, oh, no, this is-- it's happening.

所以我一直在心里想的唯一一件事就是，哦，不，这是——它正在发生。

And so the only thing I could think of was to lay on my side, to breathe through it and relax, and just think to myself, like, I have to keep this thing in.

所以我唯一能想到的就是侧躺，呼吸并放松，然后对自己说，我必须把这个东西留在里面。

I've got less than eight hours.

我还有不到八个小时

I've got to keep it in, got to keep it in.

我必须把它留在里面，必须把它留在里面。

The clinic didn't open until the morning.

诊所直到早上才开门。

So Becca woke her husband, who phoned the clinic's on-call doctor.

于是贝卡叫醒了她的丈夫，后者给诊所的值班医生打电话。

Becca says the doctor told them she'd be fine.

贝卡说医生告诉他们她会没事的。

She was just cramping.

她只是抽筋了。

Her contractions continued to get more intense, surging, and then backing off.

她的宫缩继续变得更加强烈、剧烈，然后又减弱。

Her husband kept going out to the hotel hallway to call the doctor again.

她的丈夫一直到酒店走廊再次打电话给医生。

They thought about getting an ambulance but knew their insurance wouldn't cover it.

他们考虑叫一辆救护车，但知道他们的保险不承保。

Becca says she forced herself to not make a sound-- no crying or groaning.

贝卡说，她强迫自己不发出声音——不哭也不呻吟。

Her daughter was sleeping in a Pack 'n Play near her, and she didn't want to wake her up and scare her.

她的女儿正在她附近的 Pack 'n Play 里睡觉，她不想吵醒她并吓到她。

Then what happens next gets graphic.

然后接下来发生的事情就会变得生动起来。

And then, right around 4 o'clock is when it-- all of a sudden, like, it was just a consistent, intense, just curdling, like, you-want-to-scream-and-grit-your-teeth contraction.

然后，就在四点左右，突然之间，就像是一种持续的、强烈的、令人凝结的收缩，就像，你想要尖叫并咬紧牙关。

And it lasted what seemed like forever.

它似乎持续了很久。

And then, the pressure was completely gone.

然后，压力就完全消失了。

And then, all of a sudden, I started leaking amniotic fluid everywhere.

然后，突然间，我开始到处漏羊水。

So I ran to the toilet, and all of a sudden, my body, once again, had one another-- one of those contractions, and just squeezing like you're going to squeeze all your organs out of you.

于是我跑向厕所，突然之间，我的身体再次出现了收缩——一种收缩，就像你要把你所有的器官都挤出来一样。

And out came the baby.

婴儿就出来了。

And I looked down at the toilet bowl, and there it was.

我低头看了看马桶，它就在那里。

And I just kind of sat there and just stared at it.

我只是坐在那里，盯着它。

Becca got into the hotel shower, and again says she didn't make a sound, even when her husband was trying to get her uterus to contract so she'd stop bleeding, which meant kneading his fist into her lower abdomen, the way the doctor instructed him over the phone.

贝卡走进酒店的淋浴间，再次表示，即使她的丈夫试图让她的子宫收缩以止血，她也​​没有发出任何声音，这意味着她需要用拳头揉捏她的下腹部，就像医生在电话中指示的那样。

She says it was incredibly painful.

她说这是非常痛苦的。

And so laying in the shower and-- is just streams of blood going into the drain.

所以躺在淋浴间——只是血流进下水道。

And the whole time, you're just like, why is this happening?

一直以来，你都在想，为什么会发生这种事？

This should not be happening.

这不应该发生。

If Becca had been able to get a termination in Idaho, it probably wouldn't have.

如果贝卡能够在爱达荷州终止妊娠，那可能就不会了。

Her doctor, Kylie Cooper, could have done the procedure as soon as she decided.

她的医生凯莉·库珀本可以在她决定后立即进行手术。

Becca would have been in and out in a day, not in a hotel room far from home.

贝卡一天就可以进出，而不是在离家很远的酒店房间里。

In the morning, when the clinic opened up, a couple of employees showed up to collect the fetus.

早上，诊所开门时，几名员工来接胎儿。

Becca then hobbled over to the clinic for an exam.

贝卡随后一瘸一拐地前往诊所进行检查。

It was next to her hotel, and she had to walk past a line of anti-abortion protesters.

它就在她住的酒店旁边，她必须经过一排反堕胎抗议者。

Her husband had to stay behind to watch their daughter.

她的丈夫不得不留下来照顾女儿。

When she came back, they drove home to Idaho, seven hours.

当她回来时，他们开车七个小时回到爱达荷州。

They sat silently almost the whole way.

一路上他们几乎一言不发。

Before talking to Kayla and Becca, one part of the post-Roe experience I'd never heard about was that people who had to travel out of state to terminate safely had all these complications figuring out what to do with the remains, because of rules about traveling across state lines with human remains.

在与凯拉和贝卡交谈之前，我从未听说过的后罗伊经历的一部分是，由于携带人类遗骸跨越州界的规定，那些必须出国才能安全终止生命的人在弄清楚如何处理遗骸时遇到了所有这些复杂的问题。

Becca had wanted to donate the body for medical research to give her pregnancy loss more meaning.

贝卡原本想捐献遗体用于医学研究，让她的流产更具意义。

But for logistical reasons at the clinic, she didn't get that option.

但由于诊所的后勤原因，她没有得到这个选择。

Becca and her husband decided to cremate, but they had no idea when the clinic would send the remains.

贝卡和她的丈夫决定火化，但他们不知道诊所什么时候会把遗体送来。

A couple of weeks later, we're home, and a postal worker comes up to our door and was like, hey, I'm here.

几周后，我们回到家，一名邮政工作人员来到我们家门口，说，嘿，我在这里。

You need to sign for a package.

您需要签收包裹。

And I was like, oh, OK.

我当时想，哦，好吧。

There's this white box that says, "remains," labeled on every single side of the box.

有一个白色盒子，上面写着“遗骸”，盒子的每一面都贴有标签。

For some reason, the box was addressed to baby and not the parents.

由于某种原因，这个盒子是写给婴儿的，而不是父母的。

And the postal worker doesn't actually realize it until I was signing for it, and she saw the name on the top, and her face just fell.

直到我签字时，邮政工作人员才真正意识到这一点，她看到上面的名字，脸色就沉了下来。

And she was like, OK, bye, and immediately just left.

她说，好吧，再见，然后就立即离开了。

And I was just like-- [SIGHS].

我就像——[叹气]。

So I just grabbed the box and shut the door and just sat down.

于是我抓起盒子，关上门，然后坐下来。

As a terrible coda to a terrible experience, back home, Becca worried that people who'd helped them go out of state might get in trouble if she talked about it.

作为一次可怕经历的可怕结尾，贝卡担心，如果她谈论这件事，那些帮助他们离开州的人可能会遇到麻烦。

It wasn't clear who a prosecutor might go after.

目前尚不清楚检察官可能会追捕谁。

So in the earliest, hardest days, she had a secret instead of just a loss.

所以在最早、最艰难的日子里，她有一个秘密，而不仅仅是失落。

I didn't feel like I could openly talk about it.

我觉得我不能公开谈论它。

And so a lot of the grieving process, at least for me, is being able to talk about it, write about it, like, you know, even just sympathize or empathize with other people who've gone through similar situations.

所以很多悲伤的过程，至少对我来说，是能够谈论它，写下它，就像，你知道，甚至只是同情或同情经历过类似情况的其他人。

People-- they just don't-- it made it a muted and quiet, very lonely grieving process.

人们——他们只是不这样做——这使它成为一个沉默、安静、非常孤独的悲伤过程。

Becca and Kayla met recently.

贝卡和凯拉最近认识了。

They're part of a group of people, with other patients and doctors, who are trying to sue the state, hoping to expand the exceptions in the abortion laws to include lethal fetal anomalies like the ones they had in their pregnancies.

他们与其他病人和医生一起试图起诉国家，希望扩大堕胎法的例外范围，将致命的胎儿畸形包括在内，就像他们在怀孕期间出现的那样。

And most important, they want the law to allow doctors to provide abortions to preserve a person's health, not just to prevent their death, which is the language in the law right now.

最重要的是，他们希望法律允许医生提供堕胎服务以保护一个人的健康，而不仅仅是为了防止他们的死亡，这是目前法律中的措辞。

Their case was filed by the Center for Reproductive Rights, who filed similar legal actions in other states with restrictive laws.

他们的案件是由生殖权利中心提起的，该中心还在其他具有限制性法律的州提起了类似的法律诉讼。

They represented the abortion clinic in the Supreme Court case that overturned Roe.

他们在最高法院推翻罗伊案中代表堕胎诊所。

I contacted the two Idaho lawmakers in the House and Senate who sponsored the law that criminalizes abortion.

我联系了爱达荷州众议院和参议院的两位议员，他们发起了将堕胎定为犯罪的法律。

I wanted to find out how they think it's working.

我想知道他们认为它是如何运作的。

Were they hearing about the kinds of experiences I was?

他们听说过我的经历吗？

Did they know about the doctors leaving the state?

他们知道医生离开该州的事吗？

Do they think they need to make any changes?

他们认为需要做出任何改变吗？

One of the law's sponsors declined an interview, and the other didn't respond to multiple requests.

该法律的一位发起人拒绝接受采访，另一位则没有回应多项请求。

So I reached out to Republican lawmakers who voted for the law back in 2020, before Roe fell.

因此，我联系了 2020 年罗伊下台之前投票支持该法案的共和党议员。

Senator Jim Guthrie represents a district in southern Idaho and identifies as pro-life.

参议员吉姆·格思里 (Jim Guthrie) 代表爱达荷州南部的一个选区，他认为自己是反堕胎人士。

I was surprised he walked into the interview with a notebook with stats about the number of doctors who had left the state and started citing them.

我很惊讶他带着一本笔记本走进采访现场，笔记本上有离开该州的医生人数统计数据，并开始引用这些数据。

So far, it's at least 19 doctors.

到目前为止，至少有19名医生。

That worried him.

这让他很担心。

I'm pro-life, but I think there's got to be some consideration for the docs as they practice, that they're not going to find themselves in court.

我是反堕胎人士，但我认为医生在执业时必须考虑到他们不会上法庭。

The second is the health of the mom.

其次是妈妈的健康。

Because when you talk about pro-life, the life of a mother is-- if you're trying to protect that, that's pro-life, too, to me.

因为当你谈论反堕胎时，母亲的生活就是——如果你想保护它，那对我来说也是反堕胎的。

When you first voted for the abortion laws, did you think that Roe would actually fall, or did it feel more like a symbolic act at that time?

当您第一次投票支持堕胎法时，您是否认为罗伊实际上会倒台，或者当时感觉更像是一种象征性行为？

That's a good question.

这是个好问题。

And I think, to answer that honestly, probably didn't think it would happen.

我认为，老实回答这个问题，我可能没想到会发生这种情况。

Because it had gone on for, what, 50 years?

因为它已经持续了，什么，50年？

Something like that?

类似的事情？

He's the chair of a committee in the Senate that abortion bills go through before they go to the rest of the legislature for a vote.

他是参议院一个委员会的主席，堕胎法案在提交立法机关其他成员进行投票之前要先通过该委员会。

He says the language in the abortion ban was always more aggressive than his own personal beliefs.

他说，堕胎禁令中的语言总是比他个人的信仰更具侵略性。

At that time when you voted for them, were you looking that closely at the language of the laws?

当你投票给他们的时候，你有那么仔细地观察法律的语言吗？

You know, maybe there was some things overlooked, as far as what the consequences would be, because they weren't truly consequences yet.

你知道，也许有些事情被忽视了，至于后果是什么，因为它们还不是真正的后果。

In your subconscious, you're thinking, it's not going to be overturned, so this is one way you can make a statement.

在你的潜意识里，你在想，它不会被推翻，所以这是你发表声明的一种方式。

You kind of get into that deal where if you're pro-life, even though the bill has some things that are problematic, you know, you're going to come down on the side of erring on the side of protecting the unborn.

如果你是反堕胎人士，即使该法案有一些问题，你也可能会加入到这样的协议中，你知道，你会站在保护未出生婴儿的一边。

Like the other lawmakers I talked to, he says he believed the intent of the laws, when he voted for them, was to shut down abortions happening in clinics in the state, not to help shut down a rural labor and delivery unit or force patients to travel out of state because of severe fetal abnormalities.

和我交谈过的其他立法者一样，他说，当他投票支持这些法律时，他相信这些法律的目的是禁止该州诊所进行堕胎，而不是帮助关闭农村分娩单位或迫使患有严重胎儿畸形的患者离开该州。

Those were consequences he didn't foresee.

这些都是他没有预见到的后果。

Now, seeing how things have played out, do you regret voting for those laws, or would you have done something different if you could go back in time?

现在，看看事情是如何发展的，你是否后悔投票支持这些法律，或者如果你能回到过去，你会做一些不同的事情吗？

In the context of being pro-life and recognizing the importance of the unborn, I feel like that vote at that time, with what was in place as far as trying to push back against an embedded law, I think that was an appropriate vote at the time, even though once the Roe versus Wade was overturned is when the reality, I think, sunk in for all of us.

在反对堕胎和认识到未出生婴儿的重要性的背景下，我觉得当时的投票，就试图推翻一项既定法律而言，我认为当时这是一次适当的投票，尽管我认为，一旦罗伊诉韦德案被推翻，我们所有人就都明白了现实。

I talked to three Republican legislators, and they were all in the same situation, trying to grapple with the consequences of what had just been theoretical policy when they first voted for them, but now was real law, affecting real situations in people's lives.

我与三位共和党立法者交谈过，他们都处于同样的境地，试图解决他们第一次投票时只是理论政策的后果，但现在是真正的法律，影响着人们生活中的真实情况。

Where Republican lawmakers used to be pretty much on the same side, now they have different ideas about how to apply pro-life to Idaho's new laws.

共和党立法者过去几乎站在同一边，但现在他们对于如何将反堕胎适用于爱达荷州的新法律有不同的想法。

The next lawmaker I talked to was Representative Brent Crane.

我交谈的下一位立法者是众议员布伦特·克兰(Brent Crane)。

For nearly 20 years, he's represented a district outside of Boise and makes his living running a fire alarm and security business.

近 20 年来，他一直代表博伊西以外的一个地区，并以经营火灾报警和安全业务为生。

He believes in life at conception and says he's proudly sponsored or co-sponsored more than a dozen pieces of anti-abortion legislation.

他相信受孕时的生命，并表示他自豪地发起或共同发起了十几项反堕胎立法。

He and Senator Guthrie are on the same page, as far as seeing the need to broaden exceptions in the abortion laws.

对于扩大堕胎法例外的必要性，他和格思里参议员的看法是一致的。

But they also have to work alongside lawmakers who think there shouldn't be any exceptions-- for instance, for rape and incest victims.

但他们也必须与认为不应该有任何例外的立法者合作——例如，对于强奸和乱伦的受害者。

Representative Crane describes them as still stuck in what he calls a pre-Roe mindset, where everything is still black and white.

克雷恩代表称他们仍然停留在他所谓的前罗伊思维模式中，一切仍然是黑白分明的。

He says he used to view abortion that way, too, until Roe finally fell.

他说他也曾经这样看待堕胎，直到罗伊最终倒台。

I remember sitting by the fireplace with my wife.

我记得和妻子坐在壁炉旁。

That's usually where we sit and download in the evening or early morning.

我们通常在晚上或清晨坐在那里下载。

And I said, I've got to get my head around this issue, because we are not prepared to deal with this as a state.

我说，我必须认真思考这个问题，因为我们还没有准备好作为一个州来处理这个问题。

What did you mean by that?

你这是什么意思？

Brent Crane A post-Roe environment is totally different.

布伦特·克兰 后罗伊时代的环境完全不同。

In pre-Roe, all legislation was crafted to try to set questions up before the court.

在罗伊之前，所有立法都是为了试图在法庭上提出问题。

Well, now, you're in a post-Roe environment where you have to govern.

好吧，现在，你处于后罗伊时代的环境中，你必须进行治理。

And that means you have to have legislation that is going to work.

这意味着你必须制定行之有效的立法。

And for a pro-life lawmaker-- most pro-life lawmakers will take a very conservative and very rigid stance on the issue of life.

对于反堕胎立法者来说，大多数反堕胎立法者在生命问题上会采取非常保守和非常僵化的立场。

Like, no, I'm not-- I'm not going to give any ground at all for any more exemptions.

就像，不，我不会——我不会为更多的豁免提供任何理由。

That's it.

就是这样。

Whatever.

任何。

For me, personally, I think that there are some instances where the families need to make those decisions.

就我个人而言，我认为在某些情况下，家庭需要做出这些决定。

Again, this is a place where lawmakers who used to all be on the same side of abortion are now in conflict.

过去在堕胎问题上持同一立场的立法者现在又陷入了冲突。

And there was a draft of a bill in the last legislative session that got to the main problem with the current law, the way OB/GYNs see it.

上届立法会议上有一项法案草案，该草案解决了现行法律的主要问题，即妇产科医生的看法。

The bill would have allowed abortions for some serious health complications before they became life-threatening-- in other words, letting doctors make decisions based on the health of the pregnant person, not just their potential death.

该法案将允许在一些严重的健康并发症危及生命之前进行堕胎——换句话说，让医生根据孕妇的健康状况做出决定，而不仅仅是他们可能的死亡。

Representative Crane chairs the House committee that abortion legislation goes through.

克兰众议员担任众议院委员会主席，负责堕胎立法的通过。

And he scheduled a hearing for the bill that he had to cancel at the last minute because he didn't have the votes to get it out of committee.

他为该法案安排了听证会，但在最后一刻不得不取消，因为他没有足够的票数将该法案从委员会中剔除。

For some of his members, considering the health of the pregnant person opened a can of worms.

对于他的一些成员来说，考虑到孕妇的健康，他们打开了一罐蠕虫。

Behind closed doors, that was part of the debate.

闭门后，这是辩论的一部分。

And then, if we're opening health of the mother, where does that stop?

然后，如果我们要公开母亲的健康状况，那到哪里为止呢？

Is it mental health?

是心理健康吗？

Is it just tied to physical health?

它仅仅与身体健康有关吗？

Is it financial health?

是财务健康吗？

What is-- how are you defining health of the mother?

您如何定义母亲的健康？

Representative Julianne Young is a Republican from southeastern Idaho.

众议员朱丽安·杨（Julianne Young）是来自爱达荷州东南部的共和党人。

She's vice chair of that committee, and opposed that new language about health complications.

她是该委员会的副主席，并反对关于健康并发症的新措辞。

What I don't want to do is put language in that's so vague that it has the effect of opening the door to abortion in situations where you could protect both lives.

我不想做的就是使用如此含糊的语言，以免在可以保护双方生命的情况下为堕胎打开大门。

And so if we're talking about high blood pressure, if we're talking about conditions that are common to pregnancy, then we don't want that lumped into anything that could be a life-threatening condition for the mother.

因此，如果我们谈论高血压，如果我们谈论怀孕期间常见的疾病，那么我们不希望将其归入任何可能危及母亲生命的疾病中。

Because the reality is that as women, we put our lives on the line by choosing to have children.

因为现实是，作为女性，我们选择生孩子是冒着生命危险的。

There are always risks with every pregnancy, and you can never eliminate every risk.

每次怀孕都会有风险，而且您永远无法消除所有风险。

What is your-- yeah, what's your medical knowledge of pregnancy?

你的——是的，你对怀孕的医学知识是什么？

Oh, well, I'm not going to claim to be an OB/GYN, but I've learned a lot-- (LAUGHING) over the years.

哦，好吧，我不会自称是一名妇产科医生，但这些年来我学到了很多东西——（笑）。

And you know, I guess I speak to the issue not as a medical professional but as a mother.

你知道，我想我不是以医学专业人士的身份，而是以母亲的身份来谈论这个问题。

That's really where my expertise is.

这确实是我的专长所在。

She has 10 children.

她有 10 个孩子。

She switches off bringing her youngest two to the Capitol with her, and they sit in on committee meetings and hearings.

她不再带最小的两个孩子去国会大厦，而是旁听委员会会议和听证会。

Also, random fact-- turns out my uncle was her orthodontist when she was a kid.

另外，随机的事实——原来我叔叔在她小时候是她的牙齿矫正医生。

Representative Young is wary of letting doctors consider the health of the pregnant person, of giving doctors in Idaho hospitals the kind of control they had before Roe fell.

杨议员对于让医生考虑孕妇的健康，以及给予爱达荷州医院的医生在罗伊倒下之前所拥有的控制权持谨慎态度。

For Representative Young, the sweep of the new laws is not some overreach.

对于杨众议员来说，新法律的全面实施并不是有些过分。

It is the point.

这就是重点。

The concern, I think, with the health exception is that we have some in the medical community who have practiced in an environment for a lot of years where the life of the child was not valued equally.

我认为，除了健康方面的例外之外，令人担忧的是，我们医学界的一些人多年来一直在一个儿童生命没有受到同等重视的环境中执业。

Are you talking about in Idaho hospitals specifically or--

你具体是指爱达荷州的医院还是——

Around the country.

全国各地。

Because that was the way it was.

因为事情本来就是这样的。

It was a fetus.

那是一个胎儿。

It was a clump of cells.

那是一团细胞。

And there wasn't the protection in the courts for the life of the child.

法庭也没有对孩子的生命提供保护。

Unlike Senator Guthrie, who is worried about doctors leaving Idaho, Representative Young thinks that some Idaho OB/GYNs are exaggerating their fears about prosecution under the law.

与担心医生离开爱达荷州的格思里参议员不同，杨众议员认为，一些爱达荷州妇产科医生夸大了他们对法律起诉的恐惧。

She says others are scaring themselves by overthinking the phrase, "to prevent death." She points to language in the law that says they can use their, quote, "good-faith medical judgment."

她说，其他人过度思考“防止死亡”这个词是在吓自己。她指出法律中的措辞称他们可以使用“善意的医学判断”。

Representative Crane, who talked about the pre-Roe and post-Roe mindsets of Republicans, also agrees with her on this.

克莱恩代表谈到了共和党人前罗伊和后罗伊的心态，他也同意她的观点。

On this topic, he doesn't see as much gray.

在这个话题上，他并没有看到太多灰色地带。

If you're not performing elective abortions, you have nothing to worry about.

如果您不进行选择性堕胎，则无需担心。

Just like if you're not going over the speed limit, you don't have to worry about a cop pulling you over for speeding.

就像如果您没有超速，您不必担心警察因超速而将您拦下。

"Elective abortions" is a phrase anti-abortion lawmakers and activists use.

“选择性堕胎”是反堕胎立法者和活动人士使用的一个短语。

But it's not a medical distinction.

但这不是医学上的区别。

In medicine, any termination of a pregnancy for any reason is an abortion, whether it's to prevent death, or to help rape and incest victims, or just not wanting to be pregnant.

在医学上，任何原因终止妊娠都是堕胎，无论是为了防止死亡，还是为了帮助强奸和乱伦受害者，或者只是不想怀孕。

They're all just called "abortions." Disconnects like this in terminology are another frustration doctors in Idaho have about the new laws.

它们都被称为“堕胎”。像这样的术语脱节是爱达荷州医生对新法律的另一个不满。

OB/GYNs who have left and ones that are trying to figure out if they can stay but aren't sure if they can stay-- they're like, the law is still vague to me.

已经离开的妇产科医生和那些试图弄清楚自己是否可以留下来但不确定是否可以留下来的妇产科医生——他们认为，法律对​​我来说仍然很模糊。

What's the vague-- what's the vagueness in the law?

法律中有哪些模糊之处？

The vagueness for them-- there's an exception for life of the pregnant patient.

他们的含糊之处是——怀孕患者的生命有一个例外。

But what does that need to be?

但这需要是什么？

How is that defined?

这是如何定义的？

Is that 15% close to death?

那15%是不是已经接近死亡了？

50%?

50%？

45%?

45%？

And also, there are these things that come up.

而且，还会出现这些事情。

This person has preeclampsia.

此人患有先兆子痫。

It is going to develop.

它将会发展。

I can't say when.

我不能说是什么时候。

They're like, I just-- I can't operate in that area, because there isn't that health language.

他们就像，我只是——我无法在那个领域进行操作，因为没有那种健康语言。

So I mean, honestly, do you think that if a doctor says, hey, look, I'm going to have to take your child, goes to the dad, I'm going to either have to-- if I don't take the child, the mom's going to die, what do you want me to do?

所以我的意思是，老实说，你是否认为如果医生说，嘿，听着，我将不得不带着你的孩子，去找爸爸，我要么必须——如果我不带孩子，妈妈就会死，你想让我做什么？

Take the child.

带着孩子。

He does that.

他就是这么做的。

And you get a wildly aggressive prosecutor that says, I'm going to take you to court for violating the trigger law in the state of Idaho.

然后你会遇到一位非常咄咄逼人的检察官，他说，我要把你告上法庭，因为你违反了爱达荷州的触发法。

You think a reasonable court of people that are made up of just honest citizens like you and I are going to say, yeah, we're going to throw you in jail for that?

你认为一个由像你和我这样的诚实公民组成的合理法庭会说，是的，我们会因此把你关进监狱？

We're going to prosecute you for that?

我们会因此起诉你吗？

They're not going to.

他们不会的。

How long has the law been in effect, right?

该法律已经生效多久了，对吗？

It's been in effect a little over a year.

它已经生效一年多了。

Have any doctors been prosecuted?

有医生被起诉吗？

Have any cases come forward?

有案例出现吗？

No.

不。

I mean, I think what the doctors are saying is they're like, I know lawmakers are telling us that, but there is no guarantee that a prosecutor isn't going to come after me.

我的意思是，我认为医生所说的是，我知道立法者是这么告诉我们的，但不能保证检察官不会来追捕我。

There is no guarantee that a family member isn't going to sue me.

无法保证家庭成员不会起诉我。

And I don't want to have to go to court.

我不想上法庭。

And I've also got kids, and I've got a livelihood.

我也有孩子了，我也有生计了。

You know, we have an AG that's really aggressive.

你知道，我们有一个非常有侵略性的 AG。

So they're like, the lawmakers' assurance of "no one's going to come after you," "you're not going to lose in court," isn't assurance for me.

所以他们就像，立法者保证“没有人会追捕你”，“你不会在法庭上失败”，这对我来说并不是保证。

I understand.

我明白。

I mean, I spent more than almost 90 days listening to these exact same arguments.

我的意思是，我花了近 90 天的时间聆听这些完全相同的论点。

And so I mean, look, life of the mother is life of the mother.

所以我的意思是，看，母亲的生活就是母亲的生活。

It's not this highly technical, highly nuanced argument that I think some of these folks are scared about.

我认为这些人中的一些人害怕的并不是这种技术性很强、微妙的论点。

I don't know.

我不知道。

I mean, you're a reporter.

我的意思是，你是一名记者。

I'm an alarm guy.

我是一个报警人。

For me, it's pretty simple.

对我来说，这非常简单。

Life of the mother-- hey, the mother's life?

母亲的生活——嘿，母亲的生活？

Yeah, OK, then I have the ability to operate in this space.

是啊，好吧，那我就有能力在这个空间运作了。

I mean, I think that's where OB/GYNs get mad.

我的意思是，我认为这就是妇产科医生生气的地方。

We have legislators who are not doctors.

我们的立法者不是医生。

That's true.

这是真的。

But on the flip side, you have doctors that are trying to tell legislators how to do their job.

但另一方面，医生试图告诉立法者如何做好他们的工作。

And we have constituents that are asking us, hey, this is what we want you to enact, and that's where the tension exists.

我们的选民问我们，嘿，这就是我们希望你们制定的，这就是存在紧张的地方。

I ran by him and Representative Young some of the specific experiences I'd heard from pregnant women and OB/GYNs-- the actual people who've been stuck shouldering the emotional and logistical burdens of the new abortion laws-- and how disconnected they said they felt from this new era in Idaho that's supposed to be pro-life and pro-family.

我向他和杨众议员讲述了我从孕妇和妇产科医生那里听到的一些具体经历——这些人实际上一直承担着新堕胎法的情感和后勤负担——以及他们表示，他们对爱达荷州这个本应支持堕胎和支持家庭的新时代感到多么脱节。

Here's how Representative Young sees this moment.

以下是杨议员对此时此刻的看法。

So what I hear you describing a lot seems like adjusting to a new situation.

所以我听到你描述的很多内容似乎都是为了适应新的情况。

And undoubtedly, there's a little pain with every change.

毫无疑问，每次改变都会带来一些痛苦。

So we just don't live in a world where everything works out perfectly all the time.

所以我们只是生活在一个一切都完美无缺的世界里。

And so that-- just because there's some inconvenience associated with making the policy change to protect life doesn't mean that it's not the right thing to do.

因此，仅仅因为为保护生命而改变政策会带来一些不便，并不意味着这不是正确的做法。

Because there's always two sides to the story, and there are a lot of babies who are going to live in this state that might not have lived.

因为故事总是有两个方面，而且有很多婴儿将生活在这种可能不会生活的状态中。

And that's valuable.

这很有价值。

That's worth protecting.

那是值得保护的。

That's worth paying a price for, even, if it means that there has to be some growing pains associated with that.

即使这意味着必须经历一些成长的痛苦，但这是值得付出代价的。

OB/GYNs in the state have been telling me that access to good maternal health care in Idaho has deteriorated so rapidly over the last year that the state is now in crisis.

该州的妇产科医生告诉我，去年爱达荷州获得良好孕产妇保健服务的情况急剧恶化，以至于该州现在陷入了危机。

Does that feel accurate to you, is "crisis" the word that you would use?

您觉得这是否准确？您会使用“危机”这个词吗？

Yeah, you know, I guess I haven't seen that yet.

是的，你知道，我想我还没见过。

But what I keep coming back to as a legislator, if you're a physician that doesn't want to adhere to a standard of protecting both the life of the mother and the life of the child, then that may be frustrating for you.

但作为一名立法者，我不断提到，如果您是一名医生，不想遵守保护母亲和孩子生命的标准，那么这可能会让您感到沮丧。

I think there's going to be some sorting out, maybe, as the standard of practice adjusts to what the statute is.

我认为随着实践标准适应法规的内容，也许会进行一些整理。

Do you-- I mean, I guess the concern is like, if people-- an adjustment is-- yeah, like--

你——我的意思是，我想人们担心的是，如果人们——调整是——是的，比如——

I guess what I'm saying, Miki, is I don't think that we have to desert this value of protecting life in order to have a thriving OB community.

Miki，我想我想说的是，我不认为我们必须放弃保护生命的价值观才能拥有一个繁荣的 OB 社区。

We should be able to make these two things work together.

我们应该能够使这两件事一起工作。

And it might take a minute to have the conversation and figure it out, but I do believe that it's possible.

可能需要一分钟的时间来进行对话并找出答案，但我确实相信这是可能的。

In the year after Idaho's new laws went into effect, Representative Young and other lawmakers did end up making a few changes to the law.

在爱达荷州新法律生效的第二年，杨众议员和其他立法者最终对法律进行了一些修改。

Some of the most notable-- abortions are now legal for certain kinds of pregnancies that are never going to be viable, like ectopic pregnancies.

其中一些最值得注意的是，对于某些永远无法存活的怀孕类型，例如宫外孕，堕胎现在是合法的。

And abortions are now legal for rape and incest victims, if those victims do it in the first 13 weeks and file a police report.

现在，对于强奸和乱伦受害者来说，堕胎是合法的，前提是这些受害者在头 13 周内堕胎并向警方报案。

Since most sexual assault victims never report, this is still a steep barrier.

由于大多数性侵犯受害者从未举报，这仍然是一个巨大的障碍。

But the thing OB/GYNs wanted most-- new wording that would allow them to consider the health of their pregnant patients-- legislators didn't give them that.

但妇产科医生最想要的东西——允许他们考虑怀孕患者健康的新措辞——立法者并没有给他们这些。

The lawmakers say they're still working on it.

立法者表示他们仍在研究此事。

But after that legislative session ended, that's when most of the OB/GYNs who left the state or decided to retire early got out.

但在那次立法会议结束后，大多数离开该州或决定提前退休的妇产科医生就离开了。

We're living in this moment where there's a political and ideological sorting happening in many parts of the country.

我们生活在这个国家许多地区正在发生政治和意识形态分类的时刻。

There are people who are picking up and specifically moving to red or blue states to escape the laws their state legislatures have passed.

有些人正在选择并专门搬到红州或蓝州，以逃避州立法机关通过的法律。

It just seems easier than trying to change the politics of the place where you live.

这似乎比试图改变你居住地的政治更容易。

But the big question for the patients I talked to in Idaho is, how many OB/GYNs will still be left standing to care for them after the "sorting-out" period Representative Young brought up is finally done?

但对于我在爱达荷州采访的患者来说，最大的问题是，在杨代表提出的“整理”期最终结束后，还有多少妇产科医生仍会留下来照顾他们？

In a recent survey, 50% of OB/GYNs in the state said they were definitely leaving or still considering leaving-- 50%.

在最近的一项调查中，该州 50% 的妇产科医生表示他们肯定会离开或仍在考虑离开——50%。

Miki Meek is one of the producers of our show.

米基·米克是我们节目的制作人之一。

Two of the women in her story with high-risk pregnancies, Becca and Kayla, are pregnant again, both with girls.

她的故事中的两位高危怀孕妇女贝卡和凯拉再次怀孕，而且都是女孩。

Kayla recently moved out of state because of the abortion laws.

由于堕胎法，凯拉最近搬出了该州。

Well, today's program was produced by Aviva DeKornfeld and Nancy Updike.

嗯，今天的节目是由 Aviva DeKornfeld 和 Nancy Updike 制作的。

The people who put together our show today include Jane Ackermann, James Bennett II, Susan Burton, Jendayi Bonds, Sean Cole, Michael Comite, Bethel Habte, Stowe Nelson, and Katherine Rae Mondo, Nadia Reiman, Alix Spiegel, Lilly Sullivan, Frances Swanson, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, Julie Whitaker, and Diane Wu.

今天节目的制作人包括 Jane Ackermann、James Bennett II、Susan Burton、Jendayi Bonds、Sean Cole、Michael Comite、Bethel Habte、Stowe Nelson、Katherine Rae Mondo、Nadia Reiman、Alix Spiegel、Lilly Sullivan、Frances Swanson、Christopher Swetala、Matt Tierney、Julie Whitaker 和 Diane Wu。

Our managing editor is Sarah Abdurrahman.

我们的总编辑是萨拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sarah Abdurrahman)。

Our senior editor is David Kestenbaum.

我们的高级编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。

Our executive editor is Emanuele Berry.

我们的执行编辑是 Emanuele Berry。

Special thanks today to Emily Corrigan, Stacy Seyb, Katie Bradish, Lauren Sanders, Leandra Wright, Jaclyn Kettler, Paige Belfry, Jen Jackson Quintano, Becky Uranga, Liz Woodruff, and Ali Block from the podcast The Nocturnists.

今天特别感谢播客 The Nocturnists 中的 Emily Corrigan、Stacy Seyb、Katie Bradish、Lauren Sanders、Leandra Wright、Jaclyn Kettler、Paige Belfry、Jen Jackson Quintano、Becky Uranga、Liz Woodruff 和 A​​li Block。

Our website-- thisamericanlife.org, where you can stream our archive of over 800 episodes for absolutely free-- thisamericanlife.org.

我们的网站 -- thisamericanlife.org，您可以在其中完全免费地播放我们的 800 多集档案 -- thisamericanlife.org。

This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.

《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。

Thanks as always to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia-- I don't know how he snuck into the Republican caucus this week, as it's been fighting over who the new House speaker should be.

一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人托里·马拉蒂亚先生——我不知道他是如何混入本周的共和党党团会议的，因为共和党党团会议一直在争论谁应该成为新的众议院议长。

He said he totally figured out how to tell when any Republican was going to vote against Jim Jordan.

他说他完全知道如何判断共和党人何时会投票反对吉姆·乔丹。

They make a really distinctive-- [HUFFING] sound when they're really, really upset.

当他们非常非常沮丧时，他们会发出一种非常独特的声音——[哈芬]。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Back next week with more stories of This American Life.

下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。

This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.

《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。