810: Say It to My Face - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #810 | September 15, 2023 810: Say It to My Face Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 810 集 | 2023 年 9 月 15 日 810：当面说出来 注意：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass A few months ago, somebody said something to me that I found so humiliating that I have never talked about it.
序言：序言 Ira Glass 几个月前，有人对我说了一些我觉得很丢脸的事情，所以我从来没有谈论过它。
Not to anybody.
不适合任何人。
Not even with the people I love the most.
即使是和我最爱的人在一起也不行。
This is way too embarrassing.
这实在是太尴尬了。
It makes me wince even to think of it.
一想到这一点我就皱眉。
But telling my loved ones and my friends, that's real life.
但告诉我的亲人和朋友，这就是现实生活。
Those are people I have to live with.
这些是我必须与之一起生活的人。
You and me, here, right now, on the radio, we have a different kind of relationship, right?
你和我，在这里，此时，在广播中，我们有一种不同的关系，对吗？
I can tell you.
我可以告诉你。
So this thing happened while I was still riding around the city on this poncy little folding bike, which looks ridiculous, and there's no dignity to it, but it is handy to have a bike that folds up if you live in the city.
所以这件事发生的时候，我还在骑着这辆小折叠自行车在城市里转，这看起来很可笑，而且没有尊严，但如果你住在城市里，有一辆折叠自行车很方便。
And it was maybe 9:00 PM.
当时大概是晚上 9:00。
And I was riding home from work, and I was wearing a suit because I'd been to work.
我下班骑车回家，穿着西装，因为我去上班了。
And that morning, it had been cold, so I wore a coat, even though now, at night, it was warm enough, so the coat was unnecessary, but it was just easier to wear the coat than to be carrying it.
那天早上天气很冷，所以我穿了一件外套，尽管现在晚上已经足够暖和了，所以外套是不必要的，但穿外套比背着它容易。
I was also wearing one of those-- you know those reflective orange and yellow vests?
我也穿着其中一件——你知道那些反光的橙色和黄色背心吗？
I was wearing it because I'd had three bike accidents, thanks to the fact that the folding bike loses its grip on the street in the rain.
我戴着它是因为我遭遇了三起自行车事故，这要归功于折叠自行车在雨中在街道上失去抓地力的事实。
Extra precaution seemed worth it.
额外的预防措施似乎是值得的。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I have gray hair at that point, a neatly trimmed beard.
那时我的头发已花白，胡须修剪得整整齐齐。
I was wearing a helmet.
我戴着头盔。
All in all, I was a picture of fastidious care.
总而言之，我是一个细心呵护的人。
I was going south on Avenue B.
我正沿着 B 大道向南行驶。
I was between 3rd and 2nd Street.
我在第三街和第二街之间。
A young woman was traipsing across the street, not wearing a coat, full of cheerful, loose energy, bright eyes.
一个年轻女子在街上闲逛，没有穿外套，充满了开朗、轻松的活力，眼睛明亮。
She sees me on the bike.
她看到我骑自行车。
I am this locked down, buttoned down, helmeted, overdressed, gray-haired man in a reflective vest.
我就是这个被锁起来、扣着纽扣、戴着头盔、穿着过多、头发花白、穿着反光背心的男人。
And as I rode past her, the thing she says to me is, "Do you fart out the front?" That's all she said.
当我骑着马从她身边经过时，她对我说的是：“你在前面放屁吗？”她就是这么说的。
"Do you fart out the front?"
“你在前面放屁吗？”
It was really kind of stunning.
这真是令人惊叹。
[LAUGHS] As an insult, it's both incredibly efficient and deeply mysterious.
[笑]作为一种侮辱，它既非常有效又非常神秘。
I don't even get what image she's trying to convey, in a literal sense.
我什至不明白她想从字面意义上传达什么形象。
But I do think I get the feeling she's going for, and it's not respectful, you know?
但我确实认为我明白她想要的感觉，这不是尊重，你知道吗？
It's kind of like, you fussy, foppish, overcareful old man.
有点像，你这个挑剔、浮夸、过于小心的老人。
And can I say, that thought she had, she could have kept that to herself.
我可以说，她有这样的想法，她可以把它留给自己。
I think all kinds of things about people on the street all the time.
我一直在思考街上人们的各种各样的事情。
I keep those thoughts to myself.
我把这些想法留给自己。
I do not say those things to people, to their faces, because they are strangers.
我不会当着别人的面说这些话，因为他们是陌生人。
They are complete strangers.
他们是完全陌生的人。
They don't need to know.
他们不需要知道。
But of course, it is so much easier to say what you really think with a complete stranger.
当然，与一个完全陌生的人说出你的真实想法要容易得多。
With our friends, with our loved ones, it can be so much more difficult to be honest, sometimes.
与我们的朋友、与我们所爱的人在一起，有时要诚实要困难得多。
Right?
正确的？
When somebody you really know and you have some tough truth that you need to talk through with them, the math of figuring out when to tell them and what to say and should you actually get into it and say anything at all, it can be so complicated.
当你真正认识的人并且你有一些残酷的事实需要与他们交谈时，计算出什么时候告诉他们、说什么以及你是否应该真正参与其中并说些什么，这可能会非常复杂。
Like, sometimes you tell them, and the two of you talk it through and work it out, and it is relationship changing.
就像，有时你告诉他们，然后你们两个一起讨论并解决，这就是关系的改变。
It's vital.
这很重要。
It is so important.
这非常重要。
And sometimes, annoyingly, it fucking blows up in your face.
有时，令人烦恼的是，它会在你脸上爆炸。
Today, on our program, we have stories of two friendships.
今天，在我们的节目中，我们讲述了两段友谊的故事。
And in each of these friendships, one of the friends has something to say to the other, something big, and they have to decide, do I say it to their face?
在每一种友谊中，其中一个朋友有话要对对方说，一些大事，他们必须决定，我要当面说吗？
In each of these stories, they make a decision, and then that is actually when it gets interesting.
在每个故事中，他们都会做出决定，然后事情就变得有趣了。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act 1, "What Are Friends For?
第一幕，“朋友有什么用？
No, Seriously.
不，说真的。
What are They For?" So we start today with somebody who had something that he needed to talk through with his friend.
他们有什么用？”因此，我们从今天开始，有一个人需要与他的朋友讨论一些事情。
And rather than have the tough conversation and get things off his chest and come to some new understanding, he did not do that.
他并没有进行艰难的谈话、吐露心声并达成一些新的理解，而是没有这样做。
No, no, no. Instead, he stewed about it for years.
不，不，不。相反，他为此苦恼了很多年。
And then he talked about it to everyone, everyone, but the one person that he really needed to talk to.
然后他向所有人谈论这件事，除了他真正需要交谈的一个人。
Aviva DeKornfeld explains how that worked out for him.
阿维瓦·德科恩菲尔德 (Aviva DeKornfeld) 解释了这对他来说是如何奏效的。
The thing Gabe Mollica accidentally got stuck thinking about was a friendship breakup, and he got stuck there for a long time, eight years.
加布·莫利卡（Gabe Mollica）无意中陷入了友谊的破裂，他陷入了很长一段时间，八年。
And then he took all those thoughts and did the thing that only a former theater kid would do-- he compiled them into a one-man show.
然后他吸收了所有这些想法，做了一件只有前剧院孩子才会做的事情——他把它们编成了一场独角戏。
That's how I first heard about this story.
我就是这样第一次听说这个故事的。
I went to see Gabe's show one night because friendship is something I'm stuck thinking about, too.
一天晚上我去看了加布的演出，因为友谊也是我一直在思考的事情。
I recently went through a friend breakup myself.
我最近也经历过一次朋友分手的经历。
Gabe's a small-time comedian, lives in Queens.
加布是一位小喜剧演员，住在皇后区。
Has a day job teaching kids how to write essays.
白天的工作是教孩子们如何写论文。
And he starts his show by saying he doesn't have any real friends.
他在节目一开始就说他没有任何真正的朋友。
What he has is a group of bros-- his word-- from high school.
他拥有一群兄弟——他的话——来自高中。
And his relationship with them is very stereotypically bro-like.
他和他们的关系非常典型的兄弟关系。
They do lots of activities together-- watch sports, play video games-- but never get into the nitty gritty of what's going on in one another's emotional lives.
他们一起做很多活动——看体育比赛、玩电子游戏——但从不深入了解彼此情感生活中发生的事情。
Like, for example, in the show, Gabe describes spending the whole day with his closest friend of the bros, Nick, and then afterwards, going over to his parents' house in Long Island.
例如，在节目中，加布描述了与他兄弟中最亲密的朋友尼克度过了一整天，然后前往长岛的父母家。
And I walked through the front door.
我走进前门。
And as soon as I do, my mom spots me and she goes, oh, my God, Gabe.
当我这样做时，我妈妈发现了我，她说，哦，天哪，加布。
You were just with Nick.
你刚刚和尼克在一起。
I just saw on Facebook that Nick's sister just had a baby.
我刚刚在 Facebook 上看到尼克的妹妹刚刚生了孩子。
How does Nick feel about being an uncle?
尼克对于成为叔叔有何感想？
And I was like, what?
我当时想，什么？
How does Nick feel about being-- I was like, I've known Nick my entire life, but I don't know how Nick feels about anything.
尼克对于自己的感觉如何——我当时想，我一生都认识尼克，但我不知道尼克对任何事情的感觉如何。
But I've seen the way my mother and my sister hang out with their friends.
但我见过我母亲和姐姐与朋友们一起出去玩的方式。
In the afternoon, they get a cup of coffee.
下午，他们喝了一杯咖啡。
At night, they have a glass of wine.
晚上，他们喝了一杯酒。
This is key-- they look at each other.
这是关键——他们互相看着对方。
For them, the activity is each other.
对他们来说，活动就是彼此。
And for us, the activity is literally anything else.
对我们来说，活动实际上就是其他任何事情。
And for a long time, truly, hand to God, this did not bother me at all.
很长一段时间，真的，交给上帝，这根本没有困扰我。
But then something hard happened.
但后来发生了一些困难的事情。
And for the first time in his adult life, Gabe needed more from his friends than just a good hang.
加布成年后第一次需要从朋友那里得到的不仅仅是良好的体验。
What happened is, his mom got sick.
发生的事情是，他的妈妈生病了。
She checked into the hospital, and for weeks, doctors can't figure out what's wrong with her.
她去了医院检查，几个星期以来，医生都无法弄清楚她出了什么问题。
One afternoon, Gabe leaves the hospital to go walk the family dog, and it's his first real moment of quiet since everything happened.
一天下午，加布离开医院去遛家里的狗，这是自这件事发生以来他第一次真正安静的时刻。
He talks about this on his show, and I asked him about it.
他在节目中谈到了这一点，我问了他。
He said he texted Nick to update him on his mom's status.
他说他给尼克发短信，告诉他他妈妈的最新状况。
And he responds by telling me she might be eligible for workers' comp.
他回答说她可能有资格获得工人补偿。
You might be able to get some money for this.
您也许可以为此获得一些钱。
And I'm reading that text and realizing that that is not what I'm interested in hearing about.
我正在阅读该文本并意识到这不是我有兴趣听到的内容。
I wasn't asking for legal advice.
我没有寻求法律建议。
I was asking-- I was, in my own way, trying to get somebody to be like, hey, man, that's scary.
我在问——我以我自己的方式，试图让某人说，嘿，伙计，这太可怕了。
Are you all right?
你还好吗？
Like, I'm here for you.
就像，我在这里等你。
Gabe Mollica Yeah.
加布·莫利卡 是的。
Yeah, I'm here for you.
是的，我在这里等你。
How are you feeling?
你感觉怎么样？
Not, "you may be entitled to compensation."
不是“您可能有权获得赔偿”。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah, it was very Cellino & Barnes.
是的，这就是切利诺和巴恩斯的风格。
And I think I was upset that he was just kind of missing the mark on what I needed.
我想我很沮丧，因为他没有抓住我所需要的东西。
And so when he sent me that, it really made me feel alone.
所以当他发给我这封信时，我真的感到很孤独。
It made me feel like, what if I don't have anybody to be that in my life?
这让我觉得，如果我的生活中没有人能成为那样的人怎么办？
Somebody who just gets it without having to be explained.
一个不需要解释就明白的人。
Have you ever had that?
你有过这样的经历吗？
Gabe Mollica I had a best friend named Tim.
加布·莫利卡 我有一个最好的朋友，名叫蒂姆。
And we were very, very close.
我们非常非常接近。
And he was kind of like my guy for a couple of years.
有几年他有点像我的朋友。
And it was really special.
这真的很特别。
When Gabe talks about this in his show, this is where he pivots.
当加布在他的节目中谈到这一点时，这就是他的转折点。
From here, it turns into this long ode to the only friend Gabe had ever had who would have known what to say when his mom got sick, this guy named Tim, who he'd broken up with years ago, but still hasn't gotten over because of the abrupt way it ended.
从这里开始，它变成了一首长歌，献给加布唯一一个在他妈妈生病时知道该说什么的朋友，这个名叫蒂姆的家伙，他多年前就和他分手了，但由于结束的突然，他仍然没有忘记。
It's haunted him for years.
这件事困扰了他很多年。
This is the thing I'm going to tell you about-- Gabe's one emotionally intimate friendship with another guy and the conversation they should have had that could have changed everything.
这就是我要告诉你的事情——加布与另一个人的情感上亲密的友谊，以及他们本应该进行的对话，这可能会改变一切。
Gabe met Tim his sophomore year of college at Hamilton in poetry class.
加布在汉密尔顿大学二年级的诗歌课上认识了蒂姆。
Gabe noticed him right away, because he managed to analyze poetry in a way that somehow didn't feel pretentious.
加布立刻注意到了他，因为他设法以一种不显得自命不凡的方式分析诗歌。
He seemed sort of casually brilliant.
他看起来有点随性的才华横溢。
So one day after class, Gabe strikes up a conversation with Tim.
因此，有一天下课后，加布与蒂姆进行了交谈。
They walk across campus, talking.
他们边走边聊，穿过校园。
Tim tells him that he played varsity baseball in high school, which is very impressive to Gabe, because while he'd happily accepted his fate as a musical theater nerd, he still hadn't quite kicked that straight guy urge to be good at sports.
蒂姆告诉他，他在高中时参加了大学棒球比赛，这对加布来说印象非常深刻，因为虽然他很高兴地接受了自己作为音乐剧书呆子的命运，但他仍然没有完全消除直男想要擅长运动的冲动。
Tim, then, asks Gabe what he did in high school.
然后，蒂姆问加布他高中时做了什么。
And I'm like, yeah, man, I was in musicals.
我想，是的，伙计，我演过音乐剧。
I was a little sheepish telling him, I remember.
我记得我告诉他的时候有点不好意思。
And he kind of lights up when he hears musicals.
当他听到音乐剧时，他就会兴奋起来。
And he's like, dude, I love musicals.
他说，伙计，我喜欢音乐剧。
He's like, what have you been in?
他说，你参加过什么活动？
And I start telling him, Little Shop of Horrors, and Oklahoma, and all this stuff.
我开始告诉他，恐怖小店和俄克拉荷马州，以及所有这些东西。
And I'm like, have you ever been in a musical?
我就问，你演过音乐剧吗？
Like, you do all this stuff.
就像，你做所有这些事情。
And he's like, well, I was in one show junior year of high school.
他说，嗯，我在高中三年级的时候参加过一场演出。
I was in Guys and Dolls.
我在《红男绿女》里。
And I'm like, oh, that's crazy.
我想，哦，这太疯狂了。
I was in Guys and Dolls.
我在《红男绿女》里。
Who did you play?
你扮演了谁？
And he says, I played Sky Masterson.
他说，我扮演了斯凯·马斯特森。
And I'm like, oh, I also played Sky Masterson.
我想，哦，我也玩过 Sky Masterson。
And so we have this moment where we're kind of just like looking at each other like, oh, that's weird.
所以我们有这样的时刻，我们就像看着对方一样，哦，这很奇怪。
Like junior year of high school, we played the same character.
就像高三的时候，我们扮演同一个角色。
From there, Gabe and Tim fell into that kind of all-consuming friendship you fall into when you're young, when you have time for that kind of thing.
从那时起，加布和蒂姆就陷入了那种你年轻时有时间做那种事情时就会陷入的那种全身心投入的友谊。
This newfound relationship felt different from Gabe's high school friendships.
这种新发现的关系与加布高中时期的友谊不同。
He and Tim could talk about real stuff.
他和蒂姆可以谈论真实的事情。
We would talk about family stuff.
我们会谈论家庭的事情。
We'd talk about money stuff.
我们会谈论金钱的事情。
We'd talk about the sacrifices our parents were making.
我们会谈论我们的父母所做出的牺牲。
Yeah.
是的。
Both of us were on financial aid.
我们俩都靠经济援助。
Both of us kind of had this chip on our shoulder, like we didn't necessarily belong there.
我们俩都有这样的想法，就好像我们不一定属于那里一样。
And so we kind of had this understanding.
所以我们有这样的理解。
We just got each other.
我们刚刚得到彼此。
Tim and Gabe would regularly stay up till 4:00 AM, smoking clove cigarettes and debating the kind of stuff you debate about in college.
蒂姆和加布经常熬夜到凌晨 4:00，抽着丁香香烟，讨论大学里争论的话题。
A year passed like this.
一年就这样过去了。
Then Tim invited Gabe to come work with him at the summer camp for kids with chronic illnesses.
然后蒂姆邀请加布和他一起参加针对慢性病儿童的夏令营。
Gabe joined him and found he loved it, in part because one night at camp, Tim introduced Gabe to another counselor, Kate.
加布加入了他，发现他喜欢它，部分原因是在营地的一个晚上，蒂姆将加布介绍给另一位辅导员凯特。
Gabe remembers Tim telling him, you're going to love Kate.
加布记得蒂姆告诉他，你会爱凯特的。
She's our kind of person.
她是我们这样的人。
Tim was right.
蒂姆是对的。
Gabe and Kate talked for hours.
加布和凯特聊了几个小时。
And at the end of the night, they walked back to their bunks together.
夜幕降临时，他们一起走回自己的床位。
And so we're doing this walk, and it's very romantic.
所以我们正在散步，这非常浪漫。
And she kind of just like leans in, and we kiss.
她有点喜欢靠过来，然后我们接吻。
And something kind of goes off, at least in my brain, where I was like, whatever I need to do to hold on to this.
至少在我的大脑中，有某种东西发生了，我想，无论我需要做什么才能坚持下去。
This is like a real one.
这就像真人一样。
The rest of the summer is dreamy.
夏天剩下的时间都是梦幻般的。
But Gabe has to leave camp a couple weeks early to start a teaching job in Scotland.
但加布必须提前几周离开营地，前往苏格兰开始教学工作。
He and Kate stay in touch.
他和凯特保持联系。
They're actually in contact all the time, texting, emailing, sending poems back and forth.
他们实际上一直保持联系，发短信、发电子邮件、来回发送诗歌。
But the more time passes, the less into it Kate seems to be.
但时间过去得越久，凯特似乎就越不感兴趣。
Eventually, she calls Gabe and breaks things off.
最终，她打电话给加布，结束了一切。
Gabe was upset and wrote to Tim to tell him the news.
加布很沮丧，写信给蒂姆告诉他这个消息。
Tim responded, saying he was sorry to hear about Kate and that he loved him.
蒂姆回应说，他很遗憾听到凯特的事，并且他爱他。
Tim and Gabe and some of their camp friends had planned a New Year's trip to reunite in Edinburgh, but when they arrive, it's not fun at all, at least not for Gabe.
蒂姆和加布以及他们的一些营地朋友计划了一次新年旅行，在爱丁堡重聚，但当他们到达时，却一点也不好玩，至少对加布来说不是。
All he wants to do is hang out with Tim one-on-one and talk about Kate, but--
他只想和蒂姆一对一地出去玩，谈论凯特，但是——
Tim and I are not really talking that much.
蒂姆和我并没有聊那么多。
Why not?
为什么不呢？
Gabe Mollica I don't know.
加布·莫利卡 我不知道。
Yeah, it felt like he wasn't really interested in spending alone time with me.
是的，感觉他对和我独处的时间不太感兴趣。
Finally, days into the trip, Tim asked Gabe to hang out, just them.
最后，旅行几天后，蒂姆邀请加布出去玩，只有他们。
Gabe is thrilled.
加布很兴奋。
It feels like the trip he actually wanted to have is finally starting.
感觉他真正想要的旅行终于开始了。
They go to a casino, then walk back to Gabe's apartment, where Gabe starts making them a late night snack.
他们去了赌场，然后走回加布的公寓，加布开始给他们做夜宵。
I think I had frozen pizza bagels or something, and I preheated the oven.
我想我吃了冷冻披萨百吉饼什么的，我预热了烤箱。
And Tim is sitting on my kitchen counter.
蒂姆坐在我的厨房柜台上。
And he says, Gabe, life sucks and then you die.
他说，加布，生活很糟糕，然后你就死了。
Just out of the blue?
突然之间？
Gabe Mollica Just out of the blue.
加布·莫利卡 (Gabe Mollica) 出乎意料。
He's wearing a hat, and he's sitting on my counter.
他戴着帽子，坐在我的柜台上。
He's kind of just staring off.
他只是盯着看。
He's like, life sucks and then you die.
他说，生活很糟糕，然后你就死了。
And I'm like, what's up?
我想，怎么了？
I think at a certain point, there's a part of you that kind of knows things that are going to happen before they happen.
我认为在某个时刻，你的一部分在事情发生之前就知道将要发生的事情。
And you're like, please, anything else.
你就像，拜托，还有其他什么。
You know?
你知道？
You're like, no, no, no, no, no, preparing for impact?
你会说，不，不，不，不，不，准备迎接冲击吗？
Yeah.
是的。
He's basically like, Kate and I got together, and we're not sorry.
他基本上就像，凯特和我在一起了，我们并不后悔。
We're not going to apologize for it.
我们不会为此道歉。
This is kind of like what happened.
这有点像发生的事情。
We're together.
我们在一起了。
And you're going to have to deal with that.
你将不得不处理这个问题。
That's what's going on.
这就是正在发生的事情。
What do you say?
你怎么说？
Gabe Mollica I was mad.
加布·莫利卡 我很生气。
I think I yelled.
我想我大喊了。
I was like, what do you mean?
我当时想，你是什么意思？
I want an explanation.
我想要一个解释。
You're not thinking about how you're coming across.
你没有考虑你会遇到什么。
You're just like, what are you talking about?
你就像，你在说什么？
Are there specific moments that you look back at differently after Tim revealed to you the truth?
在蒂姆向你透露真相后，是否有一些特定的时刻让你有不同的看法？
Yeah, it makes you revisit.
是的，它让你重温。
It makes you revisit the summer.
它让你重温夏天。
There's staff party pictures of them hanging out.
有他们闲逛的员工聚会照片。
And the night of the staff party, I was in Edinburgh, and I couldn't sleep.
员工聚会当晚，我在爱丁堡，无法入睡。
And there was pictures of them together.
还有他们在一起的照片。
And I remember kind of zooming in, like, where are their hands?
我记得有点放大，就像，他们的手在哪里？
Is this intimate?
这算亲密吗？
Am I--
我是不是——
Where were their hands?
他们的手在哪里？
Gabe Mollica Her hand was kind of like by his waist.
Gabe Mollica 她的手有点像放在他的腰上。
And I was like--
我当时想——
I did talk to Kate about all this.
我确实和凯特谈过这一切。
She said she had liked Gabe.
她说她喜欢加布。
But when she fell for Tim, it felt like they were beginning the big relationship of their lives.
但当她爱上蒂姆时，感觉他们正在开始一生中的重要关系。
And that's what Tim tried to emphasize to Gabe.
这就是蒂姆试图向加布强调的。
But even with that being the case, it's pretty intense to say, I'm not sorry.
但即便如此，我还是很强烈地说，我不抱歉。
Yeah.
是的。
Aviva DeKornfeld He really said that?
Aviva DeKornfeld 他真的这么说过吗？
In my recollection, yeah.
在我的记忆中，是的。
He was just like-- or he was like, I'm not going to apologize.
他就像——或者他就像，我不会道歉。
I'm not going to--
我不会——
Right.
对。
Like admit guilt.
比如认罪。
Gabe Mollica Yeah.
加布·莫利卡 是的。
Yeah, it was like dealing with a corporation.
是的，这就像与一家公司打交道。
Like, here's your settlement, but we're not going to admit any guilt.
就像，这是你们的和解协议，但我们不会承认任何有罪。
And I kind of kept waiting for him to be like, dude, I feel awful.
我一直在等他说，伙计，我感觉很糟糕。
Would that have helped?
那会有帮助吗？
Gabe Mollica I think so, yeah.
加布·莫利卡 我想是的，是的。
I like to think there's a way he could have done that that didn't end the friendship.
我认为他可以通过某种方式做到这一点，但不会结束友谊。
This is what Gabe can't wrap his head around-- why Tim did it in this way.
这就是加布无法理解的事情——蒂姆这样做的原因。
He could deal with the breakup with Kate.
他可以处理与凯特的分手。
There's a script for that kind of heartache.
有一个剧本可以表达这种心痛。
It was Gabe's breakup with Tim that really hurt because it wasn't supposed to happen.
加布与蒂姆的分手才是真正令人痛苦的事情，因为这是不应该发生的。
It's not part of the friendship contract.
这不是友谊契约的一部分。
It felt impossible to square the coldness of what Tim had done with the guy Gabe believed his friend to be.
蒂姆对加布认为是他的朋友的人所做的事情让人感觉无法与他的冷漠相提并论。
Eight years have passed since then.
从那时起已经过去了八年。
Gabe keeps expecting him to reach out because in Gabe's mind, Tim's the one who broke the relationship.
加布一直期待他伸出援手，因为在加布看来，蒂姆才是破坏这段关系的人。
So it was on him to fix it.
所以他有责任来解决这个问题。
But they still haven't talked about what happened.
但他们还没有谈论发生的事情。
Even though Tim and Kate broke up years ago, they'd been engaged before that.
尽管蒂姆和凯特几年前就分手了，但他们在那之前就已经订婚了。
In Gabe's show, he tells the whole story, how he and Tim met, camp, Scotland, why they stopped talking, and what he wishes he could say to Tim now.
在加布的节目中，他讲述了整个故事，他和蒂姆如何在苏格兰营地相遇，为什么他们不再说话，以及他希望现在能对蒂姆说些什么。
Watching Gabe on stage, I was struck, but not surprised, by how much brain space this all still takes up for him.
看着加布在舞台上，我感到震惊，但并不感到惊讶，因为这一切仍然占据了他的大脑空间。
I know from my experience, when an important relationship implodes, detonated by one spectacularly out-of-character decision, of course, you try to make it make sense.
根据我的经验，我知道，当一段重要的关系因一个极其不合时宜的决定而崩溃时，你当然会尽力让它变得有意义。
But it's exhausting to try and put a puzzle together when you only have half the pieces.
但当你只有一半的拼图时，尝试将拼图拼凑在一起是很累人的。
So eventually, you have to stop looking for those other pieces and make a new picture with the ones you do have.
所以最终，你必须停止寻找其他作品，并用你已有的作品制作一张新照片。
That's what Gabe's doing with his show.
这就是加布在他的节目中所做的。
And he's hoping for something more.
他还希望得到更多。
He wants Tim to see the show so Tim can understand what all this was like for Gabe and apologize for the way he handled Gabe's feelings.
他希望蒂姆看到这个节目，这样蒂姆就能理解加布的这一切，并为他处理加布感情的方式道歉。
And then, maybe, he could imagine having him back as a friend.
然后，也许，他可以想象让他重新成为朋友。
The only problem with Gabe's plan, he'd never actually invited Tim to the show.
加布计划的唯一问题是，他从未真正邀请蒂姆参加演出。
The first time I did this show was in the spring of 2019.
我第一次做这个节目是在2019年春天。
So you've been doing this show for four years?
那么你做这个节目已经四年了？
Yeah.
是的。
Aviva DeKornfeld And you've never invited him through that whole time?
Aviva DeKornfeld：而你一直以来都没有邀请过他？
No. Aviva DeKornfeld Even though you made the show for him.
不，Aviva DeKornfeld 即使你为他制作了这个节目。
Yeah.
是的。
I know that sounds-- Aviva DeKornfeld Did you think that he knew about the show?
我知道这听起来——Aviva DeKornfeld 你认为他知道这部剧吗？
Yeah.
是的。
I was pretty sure that he knows about it.
我很确定他知道这件事。
Why?
为什么？
Gabe Mollica His mom's on Facebook.
Gabe Mollica 他妈妈在 Facebook 上。
Gabe's friends with Tim's mom on Facebook.
加布和蒂姆妈妈在 Facebook 上的好友。
So Tim must know about the show because you know, moms.
所以蒂姆一定知道这个节目，因为你们知道，妈妈们。
Gabe assumed Tim would show up at some point.
加布认为蒂姆会在某个时候出现。
And a handful of times, he actually thought he heard Tim's laugh in the audience.
有几次，他真的以为自己听到了观众席上蒂姆的笑声。
It seemed crazy to me to put so much time and energy and money he didn't have into making something for essentially one person, and then stopping short of actually inviting that person to see it.
在我看来，投入这么多他没有的时间、精力和金钱来为一个人制作一些东西，然后又没有真正邀请那个人去看它，这似乎很疯狂。
I'll be honest, if the thing Gabe complains about most is how men don't talk to each other about their feelings, I just want to say, dude, look in the mirror.
老实说，如果加布最抱怨的是男人们不互相谈论自己的感受，我只想说，伙计，照照镜子吧。
Since he was never going to take the final step, just invite Tim himself, I asked if I could do it for him.
由于他永远不会迈出最后一步，只需邀请蒂姆本人，我问我是否可以为他做这件事。
After briefly panicking, he told me to make the call.
在短暂的惊慌之后，他让我打电话。
To my surprise and Gabe's anxious delight, Tim agreed to come.
令我惊讶和加布焦急的高兴的是，蒂姆同意来。
We were all set.
我们都准备好了。
Tim had his plane ticket to New York.
蒂姆拿到了去纽约的机票。
Gabe had grabbed a slot at a local theater and started selling tickets for the show.
加布在当地一家剧院抢到了一个席位，并开始出售演出门票。
And then, four days before the performance, Tim emails me at midnight and says he's changed his mind.
然后，在演出前四天，蒂姆在午夜给我发电子邮件说他改变了主意。
He's not going to come.
他不会来的。
He'd realized what he signed up for, flying halfway across the country to watch himself portrayed as a villain in front of a live audience, and thought, why subject myself to that?
他意识到自己报名的目的是什么，飞越半个国家，看着自己在现场观众面前被描绘成一个恶棍，然后想，为什么自己要受这样的对待呢？
I call and text Tim, but get no response.
我给蒂姆打电话和发短信，但没有得到回复。
And then, Tim finally calls me back the night before he's supposed to get on the plane to tell me his mind was made up.
然后，蒂姆终于在他应该上飞机的前一天晚上给我回了电话，告诉我他已经下定决心了。
As it happens, Tim calls me as I'm on my way out.
碰巧，我正要出去时，蒂姆给我打电话。
I'm going to a birthday dinner, where I'll see my ex-friend for the first time since she friend dumped me via text a year ago and then refused to discuss what happened.
我要去参加一个生日晚宴，这是我第一次见到我的前朋友，因为她的朋友一年前通过短信甩了我，然后拒绝讨论发生的事情。
I was nauseated at the thought of seeing her, and yet, I spent the better part of an hour pacing outside the restaurant, trying to convince Tim to see his ex-friend, knowing mine was just on the other side of the restaurant door.
一想到要见到她，我就感到恶心，然而，我花了大半个小时在餐厅外踱步，试图说服蒂姆去见他的前朋友，因为我知道我的朋友就在餐厅门的另一边。
Like, I get why he's saying no, but I tell him, most of us in this situation, we just try to avoid our ex-friend the best we can and occasionally suffer through awkward run-ins until one of us moves away or dies.
就像，我明白他为什么拒绝，但我告诉他，我们大多数人在这种情况下，我们只是尽力避开我们的前朋友，偶尔会经历尴尬的冲突，直到我们中的一个人搬走或去世。
But he and Gabe have this rare and kind of special chance to actually get some understanding.
但他和加布有这个难得的特殊机会来真正获得一些了解。
And I tell Tim, I hope he takes the opportunity.
我告诉蒂姆，我希望他抓住这个机会。
Tim's skeptical, but the next day, he texts me a picture from the plane.
蒂姆对此表示怀疑，但第二天，他给我发了一张飞机上的照片。
Gabe heads to the theater early to get ready while I go collect Tim.
加布很早就去剧院做好准备，我则去接蒂姆。
Immediately, I see why Gabe liked him so much.
我立刻明白为什么加布这么喜欢他了。
He's warm and chatty, despite being visibly on edge.
尽管他明显处于紧张状态，但他很热情、健谈。
Tim and I walked to the show, talking about nothing, trying to pretend we're not strolling into a very strange situation.
蒂姆和我走进演出现场，什么也没说，试图假装我们没有陷入一个非常奇怪的境地。
When we find our seats, I try to talk to Tim about how he's feeling, but he's distracted, looking around, trying to see if he recognizes anyone.
当我们找到座位时，我试图和蒂姆谈谈他的感受，但他心不在焉，环顾四周，试图看看他是否认识任何人。
Are you feeling happy to be here at all or no?
来到这里你感到高兴还是不高兴？
I-- happy is not-- I wouldn't use the word "happy." I would say it's weird to be here, for sure, you know?
我——快乐不是——我不会使用“快乐”这个词。我想说，来到这里确实很奇怪，你知道吗？
Tim spots Gabe's mom, and then the show starts.
蒂姆发现了加布的妈妈，然后演出开始了。
Aviva DeKornfeld Gabe begins the show breezily, and right away, there are some jokes that really hit for Tim.
阿维瓦·德科恩菲尔德·加布 (Aviva DeKornfeld Gabe) 轻松地开始了节目，马上就出现了一些非常适合蒂姆的笑话。
[LAUGHING] Aviva DeKornfeld I wonder if Gabe can hear Tim's laugh from the stage.
[笑] Aviva DeKornfeld 我想知道 Gabe 是否能听到舞台上 Tim 的笑声。
Gabe tells lots of stories from their friendship, painting them as this kind of buddy comedy duo, if Dead Poets Society were a buddy comedy.
加布讲述了很多关于他们友谊的故事，把他们描绘成这种兄弟喜剧二人组，如果《死亡诗社》是一部兄弟喜剧的话。
The way I would take an English class, so I would just always praise whatever we were reading, put me in the very unfortunate position of going to class and being like, oh, professor, another banger from Milton, you know?
就像我上英语课的方式一样，所以我总是赞扬我们所读的任何内容，这让我处于非常不幸的境地，去上课时就像，哦，教授，来自米尔顿的另一个捣蛋者，你知道吗？
But Tim would walk into poetry class with like opinions and shit.
但蒂姆带着类似的观点和狗屎走进诗歌课。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
He'd be like, this poem's good.
他会说，这首诗很好。
This one's bad.
这个不好。
This is the best thing I've ever read.
这是我读过的最好的东西。
The show is not an 80-minute takedown.
这部剧不是一个80分钟的精彩表演。
It's mostly about how much Gabe admires Tim.
主要是关于加布对蒂姆的钦佩程度。
And yet, there are moments that are hard to watch while sitting next to Tim, like when Gabe recounts the night in Edinburgh when Tim came clean.
然而，当加布坐在蒂姆旁边时，有些时刻是很难观看的，比如当加布回忆起蒂姆坦白的爱丁堡之夜时。
And he says, well, Kate and I are together, and we're not sorry.
他说，好吧，凯特和我在一起，我们并不后悔。
I'd pinned a mic on Tim, and the absence of sound coming from him during this part of the show was conspicuous.
我把麦克风固定在蒂姆身上，在节目的这一部分中他没有发出声音，这一点很明显。
I'd spent hours talking to Gabe for this story, but sitting there, in the dark of the theater with Tim, no matter what had happened in the past, it seemed genuinely hard to be him in this moment.
我花了几个小时和加布谈论这个故事，但和蒂姆一起坐在黑暗的剧院里，无论过去发生了什么，在这一刻似乎真的很难成为他。
I don't think I'd appreciated the bravery all this required on Tim's part.
我不认为我会欣赏蒂姆所需要的勇气。
Gabe finishes the show, triumphant.
加布胜利地完成了表演。
He later told me it was the best he'd ever performed.
后来他告诉我这是他表演过的最好的一次。
Afterwards, Tim needs a minute to clear his head.
之后，蒂姆需要一分钟时间来理清思绪。
He slips out for a walk while I stand with Gabe in front of the theater.
当我和加布站在剧院门前时，他溜出去散步。
Gabe is in the middle of showing me the clove cigarettes he doesn't smoke anymore, but bought for nostalgia's sake to smoke with Tim, when Tim appears, arms open, and pulls Gabe into a hug.
加布正在向我展示他不再抽的丁香香烟，而是为了怀旧而买来和蒂姆一起抽烟，这时蒂姆出现了，张开双臂，将加布拉入怀抱。
We drive to the studio and get right into it.
我们开车到工作室并直接进入其中。
Tim said it was strange to sit in the audience, hearing someone talk about him, knowing he couldn't respond.
蒂姆说，坐在观众席上听到有人谈论他，却知道自己无法回应，这感觉很奇怪。
Of course, that didn't stop him from wanting to respond, like in the moment when it's revealed that he and Kate got together.
当然，这并没有阻止他想要做出回应，就像在他和凯特在一起的那一刻一样。
The crowd goes, boo.
人群走了，嘘。
I was like, fuck you, guys!
我当时想，操你们，伙计们！
[LAUGHS] Tim That's my life you're booing, you know?
[笑]蒂姆 这就是你在嘘我的生活，你知道吗？
OK, OK.
好的，好的。
Gabe Mollica No, no, but boo is different than ooh.
Gabe Mollica 不，不，但是 boo 与 ooh 不同。
This is-- I agree.
这是——我同意。
There's a difference.
有区别。
The two reminisce for a bit, and pretty quickly, it's apparent that Tim does not remember the rise or fall of their friendship in nearly as much detail as Gabe does.
两人回忆了一会儿，很快，蒂姆显然不像加布那样详细地记得他们友谊的兴衰。
There was one part, though, that Tim remembered clearly.
不过，有一个部分蒂姆记得很清楚。
Tim had tried at one point, in his own way, to make amends.
蒂姆曾一度尝试以自己的方式做出弥补。
A year after their breakup, he'd invited Gabe to a concert with music by the composer Edvard Grieg, which he chose specifically because there's this one song in that concert that meant a lot to both of them when they were friends.
他们分手一年后，他邀请加布参加一场由作曲家爱德华·格里格创作的音乐会，他特意选择了这场音乐会，因为那场音乐会中的一首歌对他们俩还是朋友时意义重大。
It's called "The Last Spring." Gabe first introduced the song to him in college, when he took Tim to a Grieg concert.
它的名字叫《最后的春天》。加布第一次向他介绍这首歌是在大学里，当时他带蒂姆去听格里格音乐会。
And then a few weeks later--
然后几周后——
We're like up at 3:00 AM, playing video games listening to classical music on the radio.
我们凌晨 3:00 起床，一边玩电子游戏，一边听收音机里的古典音乐。
And the song "The Last Spring" came on on the radio.
广播里播放了歌曲《最后的春天》。
And I think we just kind of like stopped talking and turned up the music and sat there and listened to it.
我想我们只是停止说话，打开音乐，坐在那里听。
But it was just a very special moment, as I remember it.
但据我所知，那是一个非常特别的时刻。
This was the context Tim had in his head when he reached out to Gabe, thinking that maybe they could be friends again.
当蒂姆联系加布时，他脑子里就是这样的背景，他认为也许他们可以再次成为朋友。
I was like, let's go to this concert together.
我当时想，我们一起去听这场音乐会吧。
It's this piece of music that has this deep resonance for both of us.
正是这首音乐给我们俩带来了深刻的共鸣。
And my feeling was, this is a gesture of good will, of extending an olive branch.
我的感觉是，这是一种善意的姿态，是伸出橄榄枝的姿态。
And then Gabe said no. And so, at that point, I was like, OK.
然后加布说不。所以，在那一点上，我想，好吧。
Ball's in his court.
鲍尔在他的球场上。
Gabe, when you got that message from Tim, did you see it as the olive branch that Tim meant it to be?
加布，当你收到蒂姆的信息时，你是否认为这是蒂姆所想的橄榄枝？
I don't think I saw it as like, this is Tim putting everything on the table.
我不认为我是这样认为的，这是蒂姆把所有事情都摆在桌面上。
My perspective was like, oh, Tim doesn't want to acknowledge the hurt he's caused.
我的观点是，哦，蒂姆不想承认他造成的伤害。
He just wants to be friends again without having to do anything, is how I felt.
他只是想再次成为朋友，而不必做任何事情，这就是我的感受。
I think that perhaps my invitation to you to go to that concert, I think I was maybe overly relying on, you should feel as sentimental about this piece of music as I do and connect it to our friendship as much as I do.
我想也许我邀请你去听那场音乐会，我想我可能过度依赖了，你应该像我一样对这首音乐感到感伤，并像我一样将它与我们的友谊联系起来。
And so, without me explaining it, I remember feeling like the meaning behind this should be self-evident.
因此，无需我解释，我记得感觉这背后的含义应该是不言而喻的。
Something Tim and Gabe seemed to have in common is a kind of magical thinking.
蒂姆和加布似乎有一个共同点，那就是都有一种神奇的思维。
Tim had hoped that Gabe would understand everything he was trying to express-- complicated feelings, like love and remorse and nostalgia-- with what was essentially a link to Ticketmaster.
蒂姆曾希望加布能够理解他想要表达的一切——复杂的感情，比如爱、悔恨和怀旧——本质上是与 Ticketmaster 的联系。
Gabe had expected Tim to, romcom-style, appear unannounced one night at his performance without ever actually inviting him to a show or even telling him it existed.
加布原以为蒂姆会像浪漫喜剧一样，在某个晚上未经事先通知地出现在他的表演中，而没有真正邀请他参加一场演出，甚至没有告诉他演出的存在。
It's like each one had all the benefit of being heard without the burden of having to say anything at all.
就好像每个人都享有被倾听的所有好处，而无需承担任何发言的负担。
The main thing Gabe wanted out of all of this was an apology for how Tim broke the news to him about Kate all those years ago.
加布最想从这一切中得到的就是蒂姆为多年前蒂姆向他透露有关凯特的消息而道歉。
He thinks if Tim had handled it differently, they could have stayed friends.
他认为如果蒂姆以不同的方式处理这件事，他们可能会保持朋友关系。
I know this is what he's waiting for.
我知道他等待的就是这个。
He's told me that.
他告诉我了。
But an hour of circling around the topic goes by before, finally, Gabe brings it up, in a sideways sort of way.
但围绕这个话题转了一小时之后，加布终于以一种侧面的方式提出了这个问题。
I guess a question for you is like, do you wish that it had happened differently?
我想你要问的问题是，你希望事情以不同的方式发生吗？
Of course.
当然。
Of course, I wish it had happened differently.
当然，我希望情况有所不同。
I would tell you 1,000% I felt bad about it.
我1000%地告诉你我对此感觉很糟糕。
I totally felt bad about it.
我对此感到非常难过。
But if I'm being totally honest, I remember that conversation differently.
但如果我完全诚实的话，我对那次谈话的记忆是不同的。
What I remember saying is less like, I'm not sorry, and more, I'm not asking your permission.
我记得我说的不是“我不抱歉”，而是“我没有征求你的许可”。
But what I didn't want was for you to be like, yeah, Timmy, please don't do this.
但我不希望你说，是的，蒂米，请不要这样做。
Yeah, I mean, that's-- it's illuminating.
是的，我的意思是，这很有启发性。
There was always a part of me that wanted you to tell me like, I think I'm in love with her.
我内心总有一部分希望你告诉我，我想我爱上了她。
I don't know what to do.
我不知道该怎么办。
And at least, it maybe would have given me the opportunity to be like, Timmy, I don't want to lose you as a friend.
至少，这可能会给我机会说，蒂米，我不想失去你这个朋友。
You're coming to me, and I want you to be happy.
你来到我身边，我希望你幸福。
And what always was frustrating was like, it never felt like I had the chance to be the bigger man.
总是令人沮丧的是，我从来没有感觉自己有机会成为更大的人。
Oh, man.
哦，伙计。
Tim No, no, that's fair because you're right.
蒂姆：不，不，这很公平，因为你是对的。
Because what I said and even what I remember saying-- you're right-- is like, I was like, I am not going to give you the chance to tell me no, or to tell me, you really don't want me to do this.
因为我说过的话，甚至我记得说过的话——你是对的——就像，我想，我不会给你机会告诉我不，或者告诉我，你真的不希望我这样做。
Yeah, so what I don't feel sorry for is the facts, right?
是的，所以我不为事实感到遗憾，对吗？
The underlying-- and but what I am learning, for the first time today is that it wasn't the facts.
但我今天第一次了解到，这并不是事实。
No, of course not.
不，当然不是。
Tim It's that it wasn't the fact, and well, and that's the-- you know.
蒂姆：这不是事实，好吧，那就是——你知道。
Aviva DeKornfeld Wait, so do you feel sorry about the way the facts came out?
Aviva DeKornfeld 等等，你对事实的公布方式感到遗憾吗？
Well, yeah, now knowing that that's the problem, yeah.
嗯，是的，现在知道这就是问题所在，是的。
I did, I think.
我想，我做到了。
Didn't we?
我们不是吗？
Aviva DeKornfeld Well, you didn't say the words, "I'm sorry."
Aviva DeKornfeld 嗯，你没有说“对不起”这句话。
No, I think-- well, I thought I said that earlier in the conversation, but I am sorry for the way that I broke that news to you.
不，我想——嗯，我想我在谈话的早些时候就说过了，但我对我向你透露这个消息的方式感到抱歉。
I really appreciate you saying that.
我真的很感谢你这么说。
Yeah, Tim, so I've been waiting a long time to hear that.
是的，蒂姆，我等这个消息已经等了很长时间了。
I was surprised by how unemotional and anti-climactic the apology felt.
我对道歉的冷漠和反高潮感到惊讶。
Here Tim was, saying all the words that Gabe had wanted so badly to hear, and yet, somehow, it didn't feel like all that much.
蒂姆在这里，说出了加布非常想听到的所有话，然而，不知何故，感觉并不那么强烈。
And I think that's because of this other thing that kept surfacing throughout their conversation.
我认为这是因为在他们的谈话中不断出现的另一件事。
It's one of those awkward things that seems borderline cruel to bring attention to, but I'd be remiss not to ask.
这是一件令人尴尬的事情，引起人们的注意似乎有点残忍，但如果我不问，那就太失职了。
So, nervously, I do.
所以，我很紧张。
The thing that I can't tell is, was your friendship as important to you, Tim, as it was to Gabe?
我无法判断的是，蒂姆，你的友谊对你来说和加布一样重要吗？
It was very important to me.
这对我来说非常重要。
I don't know how to answer that.
我不知道该怎么回答。
I think-- it was incredibly important to me.
我认为——这对我来说非常重要。
I don't know that it was as important, but he was a very, very, very important friend to me.
我不知道这有多重要，但他对我来说是一个非常非常非常重要的朋友。
Do you have friends now that occupy the space that Gabe previously occupied?
你现在有朋友占据了加布以前占据的空间吗？
I do.
我愿意。
Yeah.
是的。
Aviva DeKornfeld We wrap up our conversation shortly after this, but the question still nags at me.
Aviva DeKornfeld 在此之后不久我们就结束了我们的谈话，但这个问题仍然困扰着我。
So I asked Tim about it again the next day, when it was just the two of us talking.
所以第二天我又问了蒂姆这件事，当时只有我们两个人在说话。
It's a question I'm very self conscious about answering.
这是一个我非常有意识地回答的问题。
Why?
为什么？
Tim Because I wouldn't say like he was a guy I knew.
蒂姆，因为我不会说他是我认识的人。
Yeah, he was a very good friend of mine.
是的，他是我的一个很好的朋友。
No, see, now we're getting into things about best friends.
不，看，现在我们正在讨论关于最好的朋友的事情。
And I think like--
我认为——
Best friends can be a tier, not a person.
最好的朋友可以是一个阶层，而不是一个人。
So was he on that tier?
那么他属于那个级别吗？
Tim So, whether Gabe was on that tier, he was certainly close to it.
蒂姆·苏（Tim So），无论加布（Gabe）是否处于这一水平，他肯定已经接近这一水平了。
I don't know if I would throw him all the way up there.
我不知道我是否会把他一直扔到那里。
It was startling to see the truth of the matter laid so bare.
看到事情的真相如此暴露，令人震惊。
Tim just didn't love Gabe as much as Gabe loved Tim.
蒂姆只是不像加布爱蒂姆那样爱加布。
And really, an imbalance in love-- isn't that ultimately the reason that all relationships end?
事实上，爱情的不平衡——这难道不是所有关系结束的最终原因吗？
I ran this by Gabe, that maybe there was a mismatch in their feelings for one another or in how they understood their relationship.
我由加布（Gabe）报道，也许他们对彼此的感情或他们对彼此关系的理解不匹配。
He rejected that idea outright.
他断然拒绝了这个想法。
He says he was there.
他说他在那里。
He remembers what it felt like.
他记得那是什么感觉。
This idea that we weren't best friends, I don't want to say it's a heresy, but it's just not true.
我们不是最好的朋友的想法，我不想说这是异端邪说，但事实并非如此。
Yeah, and I think-- yes.
是的，我想——是的。
Aviva DeKornfeld It could be true in Tim's.
Aviva DeKornfeld 蒂姆的这可能是真的。
Yeah, and I just don't buy it.
是的，我就是不买。
And I think that's self-preservation.
我认为这是自我保护。
I think a part of me had been jealous that Tim and Gabe got the chance to come to some understanding, a thing that my ex-friend made clear was not on the table for us.
我想我内心的一部分嫉妒蒂姆和加布有机会达成某种谅解，我的前朋友明确表示这件事不适合我们。
But it hadn't occurred to me that sitting down together and rehashing things might not lead to some sort of new common ground, that Tim could just strike a match on Gabe's memories and say, nope, you're wrong.
但我没有想到，坐下来重新讨论事情可能不会导致某种新的共同点，蒂姆可以根据加布的记忆进行匹配，然后说，不，你错了。
It wasn't like that.
事情不是那样的。
I never felt that way about you.
我对你从来没有这样的感觉。
If that's what happens when you try to talk it out, yeah, no, thanks.
如果当你试图说出来时会发生这种情况，是的，不，谢谢。
I guess that's the problem when you write a one-man show, hoping it'll prompt someone to tell you the thing you've always wanted to hear.
我想这就是当你写一部独角戏时的问题，希望它能促使有人告诉你你一直想听的事情。
There's no guarantee that they'll say the lines you've assigned to them.
无法保证他们会说出您指定给他们的台词。
Aviva DeKornfeld is a producer at our show.
Aviva DeKornfeld 是我们节目的制片人。
Gabe Mollica's show, Solo, A Show About Friendship, reopens in October and runs in New York, LA, Boston, and Chicago.
加布·莫利卡 (Gabe Mollica) 的节目《独奏，关于友谊的节目》将于 10 月重新开播，并在纽约、洛杉矶、波士顿和芝加哥上演。
Tickets are at gabemollica.com.
门票位于 gabemollica.com。
Coming up, can words succeed where sparkly platform shoes have failed?
接下来，在闪闪发光的厚底鞋失败的地方，语言能成功吗？
That's in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.
稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program, Say It to My Face.
今天的节目，当面说。
We have two stories today.
今天我们有两个故事。
Each of them is about a friendship where there is something that the two friends do not see eye to eye on, and that something is so fundamental that talking about it seems just explosive.
他们每一个人都讲述了一段友谊，其中有一些事情是两个朋友意见不一致的，而且有些事情是如此基本，以至于谈论它似乎只是爆炸性的。
And the friends have to decide, do we discuss this at all?
朋友们必须决定，我们是否要讨论这个问题？
We've arrived at Act 2 of our program.
我们已经到了计划的第二幕。
Act 2, "Pinky Swear."
第二幕，“小指誓言”。
What's so interesting about the friends in this next story is that they talk every day.
下一个故事中的朋友们的有趣之处在于他们每天都会说话。
They are so close, best of besties.
他们是如此亲密，是最好的闺蜜。
And yet, there is something that they have never talked about that is so big and so basic, that one of them wonders, are we really as close as I thought?
然而，有一些他们从未谈论过的事情，如此重大和如此基本，以至于他们中的一个人想知道，我们真的像我想象的那么亲密吗？
Jasmine Garsd is one of the two friends.
Jasmine Garsd 是这两个朋友之一。
She's been on our show before.
她以前参加过我们的节目。
Jasmine lives here in the United States, in New York, but grew up in Buenos Aires.
Jasmine 住在美国纽约，但在布宜诺斯艾利斯长大。
On the day I left home, I sat in my kitchen with my best friend Gabbie.
我离开家的那天，我和我最好的朋友加比坐在厨房里。
A taxi was waiting outside.
一辆出租车已经在外面等候了。
We were leaving Argentina.
我们要离开阿根廷。
I was 18.
那年我18岁。
Listen, I said, barely able to make the words out without sobbing.
听着，我说，几乎无法在不抽泣的情况下听清这句话。
There's something I want you to have.
有样东西我想让你拥有。
It was a shitty gift.
这是一份糟糕的礼物。
Como, really?
科莫，真的吗？
It only means something to you.
它只对你有意义。
Seriously?
严重地？
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah, like how about your comic book collection?
是的，你的漫画书收藏怎么样？
Era re especifico!
时代特别！
Que carajos ibas a hacer con unas plataformas, tipo, fue como, okay, creo que las regalé al primer homeless que encontre.
我是一个与平台有关的人，我很高兴，好吧，克里奥是无家可归者的底漆。
What the hell am I supposed to do with these, he says he thought to himself.
我到底该怎么处理这些，他说他心里想。
Before he could say anything, Mama stuffed some cash savings in a pouch under her shirt and yelled, let's go.
他还没来得及说什么，妈妈就把一些现金积蓄塞进衬衫下面的一个袋子里，然后喊道：“我们走吧。”
My grandma, Grandma Iaia, held my face in her bony hand and whispered something in my ear.
我的奶奶，艾亚奶奶，用她瘦骨嶙峋的手捧着我的脸，在我耳边低声说了些什么。
I turned to Gabbie and told him, I'm going to move back as soon as I can.
我转向加比并告诉他，我会尽快搬回去。
I promise.
我保证。
That was more than 20 years ago.
那是20多年前的事了。
Gabbie is still my best friend.
加比仍然是我最好的朋友。
We talk all the time about everything.
我们一直谈论一切。
He knows when I'm going to go get my pap smear.
他知道我什么时候去做子宫颈抹片检查。
I know when he's had a bad day, just by the tone of his voice.
我只要听他的语气就知道他什么时候心情不好。
By now, some of my facial expressions are actually his.
现在，我的一些表情实际上是他的。
They just stuck to me, like the way I curl my lower lip when I find someone annoying.
它们只是粘在我身上，就像当我发现有人烦人时我会卷起下唇一样。
But as close as we are, we've never really talked about how I said I was going to move back, and I haven't followed through.
但尽管我们关系很亲密，但我们从未真正谈论过我说要搬回来的事情，而且我也没有付诸实施。
It became a sort of unspoken rule.
这成为一种不成文的规则。
We cannot talk about this one small, enormous thing, until recently, when all the words we'd kept in over the years came spilling out.
我们无法谈论这一件小而大的事情，直到最近，我们多年来保留的所有话语都涌了出来。
It happened by accident.
这是偶然发生的。
Of course, nothing truly happens by accident.
当然，没有什么事情是真正偶然发生的。
We reached this boiling point by our own doing, by assuming we knew one another so well, we could read each other's minds.
我们通过自己的努力达到了这个沸点，假设我们彼此非常了解，我们可以读懂彼此的想法。
And to be fair, we often could.
公平地说，我们经常可以。
We've always understood one another instinctively, from the moment we met.
从我们相遇的那一刻起，我们总是本能地相互理解。
We were 15.
那年我们15岁。
Back then, I mostly spent my summer vacations at the neighborhood park.
那时，我大部分暑假都是在附近的公园度过的。
That's where I first saw him.
那是我第一次见到他的地方。
He was lying out in the grass next to another friend of mine.
他躺在草地上，旁边是我的另一个朋友。
A cigarette hung from his lip.
他的唇边叼着一根香烟。
He held a Quilmes beer in his hand.
他手里拿着一杯基尔梅斯啤酒。
And I took one look at him and thought, what a badass.
我看了他一眼，心想，真是个坏蛋。
He took one look at me-- lanky, pale, blocking his sun-- and curled his lower lip.
他看了我一眼——瘦长、苍白、挡住了阳光——然后卷起下唇。
He was irritated.
他很生气。
Acá está como la amiga cheta.
Acá está como la amiga cheta。
Tipo te vi como es como demasiado rubia y demasiado blanca, es una cheta insoportable, tal cual.
Tipo te vi como es como demasiado rubia y demasiado blanca, es una cheta insoportable, tal cual.
Jasmine Garsd Oh, look at this one.
Jasmine Garsd 哦，看看这个。
She looks too white.
她看起来太白了。
She must be insufferable.
她一定难以忍受。
And just to prove him wrong, I took my first ever swig of beer.
为了证明他错了，我喝了第一口啤酒。
It was piss warm, but I chugged it down.
尿有点热，但我还是咽了下去。
This earned me some respect.
这为我赢得了一些尊重。
We started joking.
我们开始开玩笑。
We were very different.
我们非常不同。
I was a scared and secretly angry, nerdy Jewish girl.
我是一个害怕又暗自愤怒的书呆子犹太女孩。
He was a brown kid who was scared of being outed as gay.
他是一个棕色皮肤的孩子，害怕被揭露为同性恋。
But we quickly signaled to each other that we both came from homes where there was a lot of arguing that easily boiled over into physical fights.
但我们很快就向对方表示，我们都来自经常争吵的家庭，很容易演变成肢体冲突。
The adults in our lives, they often behaved like terrifying children.
我们生活中的成年人，他们的行为常常像可怕的孩子。
I want so badly to tell you that from that day on, we became troublemakers.
我非常想告诉你，从那天起，我们就成了麻烦制造者。
But Gabbie was not the bad boy I thought he was when we met.
但加比并不是我们见面时我想象的那个坏男孩。
We were not "el terror del barrio," rebellious teens.
我们不是“el恐怖德尔巴里奥”，叛逆的青少年。
We were, as he puts it, ninos señora, children who behaved like aunties.
正如他所说，我们是小姐姐，行为举止像阿姨。
Our big act of rebellion was secretly drinking all of my mom's tea.
我们最大的叛逆行为就是偷偷喝掉了我妈妈所有的茶。
We hung out in the park and just gossiped, smoking cheap national tobacco, ripping the filter off to feel tougher.
我们在公园里闲逛，闲聊，抽着廉价的国产烟草，撕掉过滤嘴，让自己感觉更坚强。
Comprar los cigarrillos mas baratos nacionales que podíamos encontrar--
Comprar los cigarrillos mas baratos nacionales que podíamos encontrar--
Jasmine Garsd The park, it was our island.
Jasmine Garsd 公园，那是我们的岛。
And on it, we shared our fears, our obsessions, and our escape plans, which always involved moving far away.
在上面，我们分享了我们的恐惧、我们的痴迷和我们的逃跑计划，这些计划总是涉及到远离家乡。
Things were not good at home.
家里的情况并不好。
My parents, who were professors, had been unemployed for a whole year.
我的父母都是教授，他们已经失业整整一年了。
Gabbie's-- his dad was a cab driver, his mom was a secretary-- they were barely making ends meet.
加比的父亲是一名出租车司机，母亲是一名秘书，他们勉强维持收支平衡。
Había noches donde como por ahí como cenábamos mate cocido con pan.
Había noches donde como por ahí como cenábamos mate cocido con pan。
Jasmine Garsd Sometimes, he'd come home from the park and find there was just tea and bread for dinner.
Jasmine Garsd 有时，他从公园回到家，发现晚餐只有茶和面包。
At the end of each night, we'd say goodbye, see you tomorrow.
每天晚上结束时，我们都会说再见，明天见。
I'd go back home and sometimes slip into my Grandma Iaia's bed, next to her.
我会回到家，有时会溜进我奶奶艾亚的床上，就在她旁边。
She kept a tiny plastic radio under her pillow, which blasted the news all night.
她在枕头下放了一台小型塑料收音机，整晚都在播放新闻。
And over the years, the news got increasingly worse.
多年来，消息变得越来越糟糕。
10% unemployment, 15% unemployment, 17% unemployment.
10%的失业率，15%的失业率，17%的失业率。
People started just breaking into supermarkets.
人们开始闯入超市。
The police responded brutally.
警方做出了残酷的回应。
They killed protesters just a few minutes from my house.
他们在距离我家仅几分钟路程处杀害了抗议者。
We had three replacement presidents in the span of one month.
我们在一个月内更换了三位总统。
Lying next to Iaia's radio was like falling asleep to a muffled doomsday clock.
躺在艾亚的收音机旁边就像是听着低沉的世界末日时钟入睡。
By the end of the year, my family decided to go.
到了年底，我的家人决定去。
It felt like now or never.
感觉就像现在或永远不会。
At the time, there was an exodus out of Argentina.
当时，有大批人离开阿根廷。
There was a saying I heard a few times back then, "el último en salir, apague la luz." Last one out, get the lights.
当时我曾多次听到这样一句话：“el último en salir，apague la luz”。最后一个出去，把灯打开。
In the days and weeks after my departure, Gabbie watched one friend after another pick up and leave.
在我离开后的几天和几周里，加比看着一个又一个的朋友接走并离开。
And he was still there.
而他还在那里。
He says he felt anchored to a sinking ship.
他说他感觉自己被锚定在一艘正在下沉的船上。
Me enojaba, me frustraba.
我是enojaba，我是frustraba。
me sentía como que quedaba anclado en el mismo lugar, que todos podían, que la mayoría podía elegir irse a donde quisiese.
我觉得 quedaba anclado en elmismo lugar，que todos podían，que la Mayoría podía elegir irse a donde quisiese。
Jasmine Garsd I was angry, he says.
Jasmine Garsd 我很生气，他说。
I was frustrated.
我很沮丧。
I felt like I was stuck in place.
我感觉自己被困在原地。
Everyone else could choose to go wherever they wanted, but not me.
其他人都可以选择去他们想去的地方，但我不行。
I have to stay here.
我必须留在这里。
Todo el resto, el resto de ellos pueden elegir a dónde irse, a vos no, vos te tenés que quedar acá.
Todo el Resto，El resto de ellos pueden elegir a donde irse，vos no，vos te tenés que quedar acá。
Jasmine Garsd He dreamt of studying fashion, becoming a designer.
Jasmine Garsd 他梦想学习时尚，成为一名设计师。
But his mother had sat him down and told him university was not in the cards.
但他的母亲让他坐下来，并告诉他上大学是不可能的。
They needed him to get a second job.
他们需要他找到第二份工作。
So he started waiting tables.
于是他开始当服务员。
The tips were meager.
小费很少。
No one was eating out.
没有人出去吃饭。
Meanwhile, for me, it felt like I'd gotten thrown into the deep end of America with no life jacket.
与此同时，对我来说，感觉就像是在没有救生衣的情况下被扔进了美国的深处。
We lived in a motel in Southern California.
我们住在南加州的一家汽车旅馆。
I worked a lot of jobs-- dawn at a bakery, afternoons at the supermarket.
我做了很多工作——早上在面包店，下午在超市。
Weekends, I sold cowboy boots at a store.
周末，我在一家商店卖牛仔靴。
Back then, Mama was always yelling at me.
那时，妈妈总是对我大喊大叫。
There was no A for effort.
努力没有A。
There was just, keep swimming or you'll drown.
只是，继续游泳，否则你会淹死的。
Wake up, Jasmine.
醒来吧，茉莉。
Enroll in community college, Jasmine.
就读茉莉花社区大学。
Go to bed, Jasmine.
去睡觉吧，茉莉花。
But before bed, I always tried to call Gabbie on Skype or with these international calling cards they sold at liquor stores.
但在睡觉前，我总是尝试通过 Skype 或使用酒类商店出售的国际电话卡给加比打电话。
I'd tell him about whoever I had a crush on.
我会告诉他我暗恋的人。
He'd tell me about the pants he'd designed and made for himself.
他会告诉我他为自己设计和制作的裤子。
In the background of these conversations, there was always my promise to return.
在这些谈话的背景下，我总是承诺要回来。
Whenever I'd have a bad day, whenever my creepy boss would give me another unsolicited massage, I'd call and tell him, fuck this place.
每当我有糟糕的一天，每当我令人毛骨悚然的老板再次主动给我按摩时，我都会打电话告诉他，去他妈的这个地方。
I'm so glad I'm coming back soon.
我很高兴我很快就能回来。
Whenever Gabbie would have a bad day, when he'd get into an argument with his family or his boss would throw a tantrum, he'd sigh and say, can't wait for you to come back.
每当加比心情不好时，当他与家人发生争执或老板发脾气时，他都会叹口气说，等不及你回来了。
But returning at this point was impossible.
但这个时候回去是不可能的了。
I couldn't afford to even visit, let alone move back.
我连去参观的费用都没有，更不用说搬回来了。
We just needed time, we figured.
我们想，我们只是需要时间。
I needed time.
我需要时间。
Two more years, maybe three.
还有两年，也许三年。
Three at most.
最多三个。
In the meantime, I started making money.
与此同时，我开始赚钱。
Not a lot, but I felt I could help my family for the first time.
虽然不多，但我第一次觉得我可以帮助我的家人。
I started getting a taste of an independence I could never have imagined back home.
我开始尝到一种在家里从未想象过的独立的滋味。
Still, Argentina was always in my rear view mirror, beautiful and resilient, alive, even in its wreckage.
尽管如此，阿根廷始终在我的后视镜中，美丽、坚韧、生机勃勃，即使在它的废墟中。
Gabbie would tell me about all these new things he was doing, poetry readings, a protest, a road trip.
加比会告诉我他正在做的所有这些新事情，诗歌朗诵，抗议，公路旅行。
Everyone was hurting back home, but they managed to hustle and enjoy life.
每个人都在家里受伤，但他们设法忙碌并享受生活。
Meanwhile, me, I was making money in the USA, but the closest thing I had to a friend was the flatulent co-worker I took my cigarette breaks with.
与此同时，我在美国赚钱，但我最亲近的朋友是和我一起抽烟的那位吹气的同事。
It didn't matter, though, because I knew someday soon, I would make a U-turn.
不过，这并不重要，因为我知道很快有一天，我会掉头。
I'd move back.
我会搬回去。
And when I did, I'd join Gabbie in his new adventures.
当我这样做时，我会加入加比的新冒险。
Everything would make sense again.
一切都会再次变得有意义。
And I knew that coming back home could be done because I'd seen my own family do it.
我知道回家是可以做到的，因为我看到我自己的家人这样做了。
Back in the '70s, during the dictatorship, my parents had left Argentina, and they'd returned when it was over.
早在七十年代，在独裁统治期间，我的父母就离开了阿根廷，当独裁统治结束后他们又回来了。
Gabbie and I would always sign off our phone calls the same way.
加比和我总是以同样的方式结束我们的电话。
I'd tell him, see you soon.
我会告诉他，很快再见。
And he'd say--
他会说——
Te amo hasta el cielo y devuelta Jazmina de mi corazón.
我爱你，我爱你，我爱你。
Jasmine Garsd Jazmina, my love, I love you to the sky and back.
Jasmine Garsd Jazmina，我的爱人，我爱你到天上再回来。
See you soon.
再见。
I went back to visit in 2011.
我于2011年回访。
I didn't tell anyone I was coming back, not even Gabbie.
我没有告诉任何人我要回来，甚至连加比也没有。
I thought it would be a wonderful surprise to just show up one day, unannounced.
我认为有一天突然出现会是一个美妙的惊喜。
That night, I got into the city, went to my aunt's house, ate something, and fell asleep.
那天晚上，我进了城，去了姨妈家，吃了点东西，就睡着了。
The telephone woke me up before sunrise.
天亮之前电话把我吵醒了。
They told me that Grandma Iaia had been found at the foot of the stairway at her nursing home, unconscious.
他们告诉我，艾亚奶奶被发现躺在疗养院的楼梯脚下，不省人事。
Her skull was cracked.
她的头骨裂开了。
She'd been rushed to the hospital.
她被紧急送往医院。
In my memory, it feels like I'm running underwater, too slow to make it in time.
在我的记忆中，感觉就像是在水下奔跑，速度太慢，无法及时到达。
And by the time I got to the hospital, the police had arrived.
当我到达医院时，警察已经到了。
She had died.
她已经死了。
The circumstances were murky, and it could have involved violence, so this was now an official investigation.
情况不明，可能涉及暴力，所以现在这是正式调查。
The cops wouldn't let me in.
警察不让我进去。
Dazed, I walked outside and looked for a public phone.
我茫然地走到外面寻找公用电话。
There was only one person I knew to call--
只有一个我认识的人可以打电话——
Yo estaba durmiendo.
Yo estaba durmiendo。
Jasmine Garsd Gabbie.
贾斯敏·加斯德·加比。
He was asleep.
他睡着了。
It was early.
时间还早。
I'm home, I told him.
我回来了，我告诉他。
Home, home?
家，家？
Home, home.
家，家。
I need you to come to the hospital.
我需要你来医院。
When he arrived, I fell apart in his arms.
当他到达时，我崩溃在他的怀里。
In the next few days, I went to the police to badger them.
接下来的几天，我又去警察局纠缠他们。
Hey, when can I get her body back?
哎，我什么时候才能把她的身体拿回来呢？
The officer was too busy watching a soccer game to see me.
那位警官正忙着看足球比赛，没有时间来看我。
I could hear them all yelling at the screen in the back office.
我可以听到他们都对着后台办公室的屏幕大喊大叫。
I'd forgotten about this part of Argentina, how broken things could be.
我已经忘记了阿根廷的这片土地，这里的一切是多么破碎。
At night, Gabbie would crawl into bed with me.
晚上，加比会和我一起爬上床。
We'd spoon and I'd cry, and he'd whisper, come on now, Jazmina.
我们用勺子舀着吃，我哭了，他低声说，来吧，贾兹米娜。
You know how things are here with the police.
你知道这里警察的情况如何。
But all of a sudden, I had this deep, terrifying feeling of wanting to leave.
但突然间，我有一种深深的、可怕的想要离开的感觉。
I'd never felt that before.
我以前从未有过这样的感觉。
I didn't know what to make of it.
我不知道该怎么办。
And I couldn't tell Gabbie.
我不能告诉加比。
I worried it would be too hurtful, so I kept it from him.
我担心这太伤害他了，所以我没有告诉他。
I think it was the first time in my life I kept anything from him.
我想这是我一生中第一次对他隐瞒任何事情。
He'd drift off to sleep, and I'd stay awake for hours.
他会渐渐入睡，而我会几个小时保持清醒。
A few days later, the cops called.
几天后，警察打来电话。
I was to identify Iaia's body at the city morgue.
我要去市太平间辨认艾亚的尸体。
Gabbie went with me.
加比和我一起去。
When they rolled out her body, Gabbie saw me drowning.
当他们把她的尸体推出来时，加比看到我溺水了。
He found my hand and whispered, Jazz--
他找到我的手，低声说道，爵士——
Cerra los ojos.
塞拉洛斯奥霍斯。
Jasmine Garsd --close your eyes.
Jasmine Garsd——闭上你的眼睛。
When he identified her body, he gave me a gift to remember her as one of the last times I saw her.
当他辨认出她的尸体时，他给了我一份礼物，以纪念她，这是我最后一次见到她。
The day I left, she was holding my face, whispering, "Jazmin.
我离开的那天，她捧着我的脸，低声说：“贾兹敏。
No te olvides de nosotros." Don't forget us.
没有我们的奥尔维德斯。”不要忘记我们。
After Iaia died, I felt like I had failed at the most important things, to hold on to the people I loved tight enough, to stay connected enough, or to, at the very least, go back home in time enough to say Como me voy a olvidar de vos.
伊亚去世后，我觉得自己在最重要的事情上失败了，无法紧紧抓住我所爱的人，保持足够的联系，或者至少及时回家，说“Como me voy a olvidar de vos”。
How could I ever forget you?
我怎么可能忘记你呢？
Thank you.
谢谢。
Goodbye.
再见。
I felt guilty.
我感到内疚。
Gabbie and me, we still talked every day, but whenever it came up, me visiting or moving back, I could hear myself making excuses, even when they weren't exactly true.
加比和我，我们仍然每天都会说话，但每当我去拜访或搬回来的时候，我都能听到自己在找借口，即使这些借口并不完全正确。
I can't afford a ticket.
我买不起票。
I don't have enough vacation days.
我的假期不够。
Too much work.
工作量太大了。
And then last summer, I ran out of excuses.
然后去年夏天，我就没有借口了。
My job sent me to Argentina to report on the FIFA World Cup in 2022.
由于工作原因，我前往阿根廷报道 2022 年 FIFA 世界杯。
That's when it happened.
就在那时，事情发生了。
Gabbie and I, we finally talked about it, about how 20-some years ago, we sat in my kitchen, and I made a promise that I haven't kept.
加比和我，我们终于谈论了这件事，谈论了二十多年前，我们如何坐在厨房里，我做出了一个我没有兑现的承诺。
When I hopped out of the cab and saw Gabbie walk towards me, he looked as handsome as ever.
当我跳下出租车，看到加比向我走来时，他看起来一如既往的英俊。
Gabbie!
加比！
Hola.
你好。
Que onda, Jasmina?
贾斯米娜，你怎么了？
Estas igual!
伊斯塔斯伊瓜尔！
We almost immediately snap back into it-- goofed off, pretended to be gymnasts on the jungle gym.
我们几乎立刻又回到了原来的状态——偷懒，假装自己是攀登架上的体操运动员。
He's doing great.
他做得很好。
He's a modeling agent, which he loves.
他是一名模特经纪人，他很喜欢这个职业。
He's dating a really nice guy who forces him to eat healthy.
他正在和一个非常好的人约会，他强迫他健康饮食。
Somehow, his childhood cat, Fiona, is still alive.
不知何故，他儿时的猫菲奥娜还活着。
It felt so good to just be together, like in the old days.
在一起的感觉真好，就像以前那样。
And so I got that nagging question.
所以我得到了这个令人烦恼的问题。
Is it time to come back home?
是时候回家了吗？
I blurted it out in the middle of our conversation.
我在谈话中脱口而出。
You know, my family's always like, oh, I can put you in touch with so-and-so who runs a radio station.
你知道，我的家人总是说，哦，我可以让你与经营广播电台的某某取得联系。
But I don't have the contacts.
但我没有联系方式。
I made my-- what?
我做了我的——什么？
There it was.
就在那里。
Like a nervous tic, I said it, the promise followed by the excuse.
我像紧张抽搐一样说了出来，承诺之后是借口。
I'm going to move back home.
我要搬回家了。
I just can't right now because of work, which is when Gabbie looked at me.
我现在因为工作而不能，这时加比看着我。
His lower lip curled and finally said what he really felt.
他的下唇一翘，终于说出了自己的真实感受。
He remembers the moment as well as I do.
他和我一样记得那一刻。
Boluda, como, deja de chamuyarme, como, basta, saltemos esto, saltemos este loop que tenemos hace años donde tipo voy a volver.
Boluda、como、deja de chamuyarme、como、basta、saltemos esto、saltemos este Loop que tenemos hace años donde tipo voy a volver。
Jasmine Garsd Come on, sis.
茉莉·加斯德 来吧，姐姐。
Stop bullshitting me.
别再跟我胡说八道了。
Enough.
足够的。
Let's jump out of this loop we've been stuck in for years, where you say you're moving back or you want to move back, and it's like, it's not going to happen.
让我们跳出这个多年来一直陷入的循环，你说你要搬回去或者你想搬回去，但就像，这不会发生。
Let's move on.
让我们继续吧。
O quiero volver, y es como, tipo no va a pasar, ya está, pasamos esto.
O quiero volver，y es como，tipo no va a pasar，ya está，pasamos esto。
move on, ¿entendés?, y sigamos como a otra página.
继续前进，“entendés”，y sigamos como a otra página。
Jasmine Garsd All of this, this was new information for me.
Jasmine Garsd 所有这一切对我来说都是新信息。
Gabbie was doing this thing that, in Spanish, we call desahogarse.
加比正在做这件事，在西班牙语中，我们称之为 desahogarse。
I suppose it translates into venting, but it literally means "to undrown oneself," to spit out everything you've been holding in, no matter what.
我想它翻译成发泄，但它的字面意思是“淹没自己”，吐出你一直压抑的一切，无论如何。
Hubo momentos en los que te sentiste como irritado, como boluda ya no tenes que decir eso, está todo bien?
Hubo momentos en los que te Sentiste como irritado, como boluda ya no tenes que decir eso, está todo bien？
I asked him, were there moments where you felt irritated?
我问他，你有没有感到恼火的时候？
Like, come on, girl.
就像，来吧，女孩。
You don't have to keep saying this.
你不必一直这样说。
We're good.
我们很好。
Desde el momento en que lo entendí tipo todas las veces que lo has dicho me sentí irritado.
这一刻让我感到非常愤怒。
Tipo como okay, pará.
Tipo como 好吧，帕拉。
Que pare.
阙帕。
Que pare de decirme tipo esto porque Cómo es al pedo.
这是因为我是恋童癖。
¿Para que me lo dice?
¿Para que me lo dice？
Tipo no sé.
Tipo no sé。
Jasmine Garsd Gabbie says, of course.
贾斯敏·加斯德·加比说，当然。
From the moment, I understood it.
从那一刻起，我就明白了。
Like, every time you'd said it, I felt annoyed.
就像，每次你这么说，我都感到恼火。
Like, stop.
就像，停下来。
Just stop.
停下来吧。
It was like, what is the deal here?
就像，这是怎么回事？
What are you telling me this for?
你告诉我这些是为了什么？
Como...Porque sentí que me lo decias a mi para dejarme tranquilo a mi.
Como...Porque sentí que me lo decias a mi para dejarme stille a mi。
Entendes?
同意吗？
Y finalmente era como...no!
最终时代即将来临……不！
Jasmine Garsd It felt like you were saying it to calm me down, and I was like, no. Looking back, he's kind of right.
Jasmine Garsd 感觉你这么说是为了让我平静下来，我当时想，不。现在回想起来，他是对的。
I did say these things out of guilt.
我确实是出于愧疚才说出这些话的。
I tried to soften things by talking about how challenging it was for me up north, which he says actually didn't help.
我试图通过谈论北方对我来说是多么具有挑战性来缓和气氛，他说这实际上没有帮助。
Era escuchar quejarte de algo que yo nunca tuve la posibilidad de hacer.
时代 escuchar quejarte de algo que yo nunca tuve la posibilidad de hacer。
No?
不？
Jasmine Garsd It was hearing you complain about something I never had the chance to do.
Jasmine Garsd 是听到你抱怨一些我从来没有机会做的事情。
He didn't want to hear that, not when he was barely making ends meet.
他不想听到这个，尤其是在他刚刚入不敷出的时候。
And he says the moment he realized that I was never going to move back was years ago when my Grandma Iaia died, the same moment, I suppose, it became clear to me.
他说，当他意识到我永远不会搬回去的那一刻，是在几年前，当我的祖母伊亚去世时，我想，就在同一时刻，我也明白了这一点。
Ahí fue cuando entendí, fue como como okay, Jasmin no va a volver y automáticamente me cayo esa ficha de que ya no tenias a tus abuelas, acá ya no tenias a nada que te arraigue.
嗯，一切顺利，好吧，茉莉花轮手枪和自动装置让我自动驾驶，没有任何问题，没有任何问题。
Jasmine Garsd It immediately hit me that you no longer had your grandparents here.
Jasmine Garsd 我立刻意识到你不再有你的祖父母在这里了。
So I was like, OK, nothing is anchoring her here.
所以我想，好吧，没有什么可以把她固定在这里。
But you were here, I say.
但我说，你在这里。
Si.
斯。
Pero como amigo, es decir, tampoco como hubiese querido que vuelvas por mi.
但我的朋友，我决定，我要告诉你，我的丈夫是我的。
Se entiende?
是这样吗？
No ahora.
没有阿霍拉。
En otro momento si me lo decias cuando teníamos 23 años me hubiese encantado la idea de que pudieses volver por mi.
在我的另一个时刻，我在二十三岁的时候就开始思考我的想法。
¿Entendes?
¡ 同意？
Jasmine Garsd Gabbie says, yeah, but as your friend, I mean, I wouldn't have wanted you to come back for me, not now.
Jasmine Garsd Gabbie 说，是的，但作为你的朋友，我的意思是，我不会希望你回来找我，不是现在。
At some other time in my life, like if you had said this to me when we were 23, I would have loved for you to come back for me, you know?
在我生命中的某个时候，就像如果你在我们 23 岁时对我说这句话，我会很高兴你能回来找我，你知道吗？
I do know.
我知道。
But I wasn't just saying it for him.
但我不只是为他这么说。
I was also saying it because I was terrified.
我也是因为害怕才这么说的。
Terrified that I was drifting away, and I needed to believe I still had a home, a place where I fit in perfectly.
我害怕自己正在逐渐远离，我需要相信我仍然有一个家，一个我完美融入的地方。
I still want to believe that.
我仍然愿意相信这一点。
My whole body tensed up when I asked him this question.
当我问他这个问题时，我全身都绷紧了。
Do you still think of me as Argentine?
你还认为我是阿根廷人吗？
Mm-- no quiero que te lo tomes a mal pero...no.
嗯——no quiero que te lo tomes a mal pero...不。
Wow.
哇。
Gabbie said, don't take this the wrong way, but no.
加比说，别误会，但事实并非如此。
Sos re latina.
Sos re 拉丁裔。
Pero no se, si como...no se, hoy por hoy no te presento como una amiga argentina.
Pero no se，si como...no se，hoy por hoy no te Presento como una amiga 阿根廷。
Jasmine Garsd He says, you are very Latina, but I don't know.
Jasmine Garsd 他说，你很拉丁裔，但我不知道。
Nowadays, I don't introduce you as my Argentine friend.
现在，我不会把你介绍为我的阿根廷朋友。
You're my North American friend.
你是我的北美朋友。
I realized a long time ago, but without meaning to, I started calling you my gringa friend.
我很久以前就意识到了，但无意中，我开始称你为我的外国朋友。
Eso hace tiempo me di cuenta, tipo como sin quererlo, tipo pero te presento como mi amiga norteamericana.
这是我的第一次，我的朋友是我的朋友，我的朋友是我的北美朋友。
That son of a bitch.
那个王八蛋。
Being from Argentina is like my whole identity.
来自阿根廷就像我的整个身份。
It's like my theme song.
就像我的主题曲一样。
That's how I think of myself as I move through my stupid everyday life.
这就是我在愚蠢的日常生活中对自己的看法。
What the fuck?
搞什么鬼？
I've heard this kind of thing before.
我以前听说过这样的事情。
My whole life, I had heard Latin Americans talk about US Latinos this way.
我一生都听拉丁美洲人这样谈论美国拉丁裔。
People's voice would go down half an octave when they say, oh, so-and-so is Colombian, but from the US, like it's some kind of terminal illness.
当人们说“哦，某某是哥伦比亚人，但来自美国”时，声音会低半个八度，就像得了某种绝症一样。
I guess I just didn't realize that now I live in the voice drop.
我想我只是没有意识到我现在生活在声音下降中。
Gabbie says he still loves me, even if there's parts of me that he now doesn't fully get.
加比说他仍然爱我，即使他现在还没有完全理解我的某些部分。
Que esta bien que no vuelvas.
Que esta bien que no vuelvas。
Me parece bien.
我是好人。
Es como...Me parece hasta sano que puedas entender que no hace falta que vuelvas.
Es como...Me parece hasta sano que puedas entend que no hace falta que vuelvas。
Jasmine Garsd It's OK for you not to come back for me, he says.
Jasmine Garsd：你不回来找我也没关系，他说。
It's healthy.
它很健康。
I stopped waiting for you a long time ago.
我很久以前就不再等你了。
And so, in one fell swoop, he releases me from my teenage promise, which you would think was a huge relief.
于是，他一举解除了我青少年时期的承诺，你可能会认为这是一种巨大的解脱。
But to be honest, it feels terrible.
但说实话，感觉很糟糕。
Even as I say this, I keep thinking, but wait, maybe.
即使我这么说，我仍然在思考，但等等，也许吧。
Maybe I'll move back in a few more years.
也许再过几年我就会搬回去。
Maybe when I'm old.
也许当我老了。
I don't want to be free from my oath, and I don't know where that leaves us.
我不想摆脱我的誓言，我不知道这会让我们走向何方。
Every time I think about my friendship with Gabbie, about what the glue is that keeps us together at a distance, I go back to this one memory.
每当我想到我和加比的友谊，想到是什么让我们保持距离，我就会回到这段记忆。
It happened back when we were kids, on that first day when we met in the park.
这件事发生在我们小时候，我们在公园见面的第一天。
That evening, there was a summer storm.
那天晚上，下了一场夏季暴风雨。
All our friends ran home.
我们所有的朋友都跑回家了。
It was just me and him.
只有我和他。
"El diluvio!" we yelled dramatically.
“大洪水！”我们大声喊叫。
The great flood.
大洪水。
We laughed as we stood under a ledge to avoid the downpour.
我们站在壁架下躲避倾盆大雨，哈哈大笑。
I didn't want to go back home.
我不想回家。
I never did back then.
那时我从来没有这样做过。
I didn't have to explain it to him.
我不需要向他解释。
We just knew each other profoundly from the start.
我们从一开始就非常了解对方。
He smiled at me, drenched.
他对我微笑，浑身湿透。
His brown eyes filled with mischief and said, Queres quedarte acá un rato más?
他棕色的眼睛里充满了恶作剧，说道：“Queres quedarte acá un rato más？”
Want to stay here a while longer?
想在这里多呆一会儿吗？
I felt the rush of excitement of someone who has just been spoken to for the first time.
我感受到了第一次与人交谈时的兴奋。
Yes, I answered.
是的，我回答道。
So we stood under the ledge together, watching the world around us come undone.
于是我们一起站在窗台下，看着周围的世界被破坏。
Jasmine Garsd.
茉莉花加斯德。
She first interviewed Gabbie for her podcast, The Last Cup, La Ultima Copa, which I guess officially is about soccer star Leo Messi and Argentina, but really, if you hear it, is about so much more, about leaving home, about being an outsider in another country.
她第一次采访加比是为了她的播客《最后的杯赛》，我想这正式是关于足球明星里奥·梅西和阿根廷的，但实际上，如果你听到它，它的内容远不止这些，关于离开家乡，关于在另一个国家成为局外人。
It is available in English and in Spanish, wherever you get your podcasts, produced by NPR and Futuro Studios.
无论您在何处获取由 NPR 和 Futuro Studios 制作的播客，它都有英语和西班牙语版本。
Jasmine's story for our show today was produced by Nadia Reiman.
我们今天节目中茉莉花的故事由纳迪亚·雷曼 (Nadia Reiman) 制作。
Credits Ira Glass Our program was produced today by Lilly Sullivan and edited by Laura Starecheski.
图片来源 Ira Glass 今天我们的节目由 Lilly Sullivan 制作，Laura Starecheski 编辑。
The people who put our show together today include Bim Adewunmi, James Bennett II, Jendayi Bonds, Zoe Chace, Sean Cole, Michael Comite, Andrea Lopez Cruzado, Valerie Kipnis, Tobin Low, Stowe Nelson, Katherine Rae Mondo, Ryan Rumery, Frances Swanson, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, Julie Whitaker, and Diane Wu.
今天的节目制作人包括 Bim Adewunmi、James Bennett II、Jendayi Bonds、Zoe Chace、Sean Cole、Michael Comite、Andrea Lopez Cruzado、Valerie Kipnis、Tobin Low、Stowe Nelson、Katherine Rae Mondo、Ryan Rumery、Frances Swanson、Christopher Swetala、Matt Tierney、Julie Whitaker 和 Diane Wu。
Our managing editor is Sarah Abdurrahman.
我们的总编辑是萨拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sarah Abdurrahman)。
Our senior editor is David Kestenbaum.
我们的高级编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。
Our executive editor is Emanuel Berry.
我们的执行编辑是伊曼纽尔·贝里。
Special thanks today to Greg Walloch, Jonathan Goldstein, Lauren Gonzalez, and Katie Simon.
今天特别感谢 Greg Walloch、Jonathan Goldstein、Lauren Gonzalez 和 Katie Simon。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org, where you can stream our archive of over 800 episodes for absolutely free.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org，您可以在其中完全免费地观看我们的 800 多集档案。
If you are stuck for something to listen to, there are staff recommendations like in a classy neighborhood bookstore.
如果您想听点什么，工作人员会向您推荐，就像在优雅的社区书店一样。
thisamericanlife.org.
thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our program's confounder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们计划的混杂者 Torey Malatia 先生。
His cousin, Milt, in England, is always mailing him sausages, like individual sausages.
他在英国的表弟米尔特总是给他邮寄香肠，就像单独的香肠一样。
I was walking by Torey's desk this morning and saw him opening this package.
今天早上我走过托里的办公桌，看到他打开了这个包裹。
I was like, what is that, Torey?
我当时想，那是什么，托里？
He told me--
他告诉我——
Another banger from Milton.
米尔顿的另一首热门歌曲。
Ira Glass I'm Ira Glass.
艾拉·格拉斯 我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。