81: Guns - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #81 | January 29, 2010 81: Guns Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 81 集 | 2010 年 1 月 29 日 81：枪 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass Dear friend, it's true.
序言 Ira Glass 亲爱的朋友，这是真的。
If there's even the slightest possibility that you'll have to use your gun someday for self-defense, this is going to be the most important letter you've ever read.
如果有一天你有可能不得不使用枪进行自卫，那么这将是你读过的最重要的一封信。
I'm not kidding.
我不是在开玩笑。
So please do yourself a favor.
所以请帮自己一个忙。
Go to someplace quiet, close the door, and tell everyone not to disturb you for the next 5 or 10 minutes.
去一个安静的地方，关上门，告诉大家在接下来的 5 到 10 分钟内不要打扰你。
Done?
完毕？
Good.
好的。
I'm only asking that you do this because I want you to carefully absorb and consider what I'm about to share with you.
我只是要求您这样做，因为我希望您仔细吸收并考虑我将要与您分享的内容。
It really could save your life someday.
有一天它真的可以拯救你的生命。
Well, this is an open letter from this issue of American Handgunner magazine.
嗯，这是本期《美国手枪手》杂志的一封公开信。
It's actually written by Ben Cooley, who's described as somebody with 13 years of experience in counterterrorism, hostage rescue, and SWAT training.
它实际上是由 Ben Cooley 撰写的，他被描述为在反恐、人质救援和特警训练方面拥有 13 年经验的人。
It is a four-page single-spaced letter with lots of things underlined and bolded everywhere.
这是一封四页单行距的信，到处都有很多下划线和粗体的内容。
It's actually a full-page ad.
这实际上是一个整版广告。
His thesis basically is that you have to have the fighting mindset.
他的论点基本上是你必须有战斗心态。
Naturally you have to have a gun, but in addition to a gun, more important than the gun, is what is going on in your head.
自然你得有枪，但除了枪之外，比枪更重要的是你脑子里在想什么。
Let me just read you a little bit here.
让我在这里为您读一点。
Hollywood will get you killed.
好莱坞会害死你的。
Tragically, almost everyone alive today learns their so-called fighting skills from what they see on TV and in the movies.
可悲的是，今天活着的几乎每个人都是从电视和电影中学到的所谓的战斗技巧。
I say "tragically" because everything you see on TV and film is absolutely the opposite of what you should do in a real life armed confrontation.
我说“悲剧性”是因为你在电视和电影中看到的一切与你在现实生活中的武装对抗中应该做的事情绝对相反。
Yes, I know it's almost heresy to say it, but even Dirty Harry would get his head blown off if he tried these stunts in real life.
是的，我知道这么说几乎是异端邪说，但即使是肮脏的哈利，如果他在现实生活中尝试这些特技，也会被炸掉头。
I've been reading gun magazines, and more than anything I've read in any of the issues of any of the gun magazines, this ad completely gets to me, and I've been trying to think about why.
我一直在阅读枪支杂志，这则广告比我在任何一期枪支杂志上读过的任何内容都更能吸引我，我一直在努力思考为什么。
And I think the reasons are these.
我认为原因如下。
Number one, its central attitude, its central thesis is everything you know is wrong.
第一，它的中心态度、中心论点是你所知道的一切都是错误的。
Number two, it says Hollywood is trouble.
第二，它说好莱坞是个麻烦。
Number three, it tells you that gadgets and fancy stuff cannot help you.
第三，它告诉你小玩意和花哨的东西对你没有帮助。
What will help you, the only thing that can help you, is the right attitude.
对你有帮助的，唯一能帮助你的，就是正确的态度。
Number four, it says that all I need to do is buy a video for $97, and a gun, of course, but mainly video, and I'm set.
第四，它说我需要做的就是花 97 美元买一个视频，当然还有一把枪，但主要是视频，我已经准备好了。
I read this and I have to say I want more.
我读了这篇文章，我不得不说我想要更多。
I want this.
我想要这个。
Which is not an easy thing to achieve with an ad, because the gap between gun owners and people who don't own guns, like myself, that is a vast gap in our country.
通过广告实现这一目标并不容易，因为枪支拥有者和像我这样不拥有枪支的人之间的差距在我们国家是巨大的。
It's two different cultures.
这是两种不同的文化。
But this ad, I don't know what.
但这个广告，我不知道是什么。
It's a thing about it's everything you know is wrong, can-do badassery.
事情是这样的，你知道的一切都是错的，但你却能做坏事。
I get this ad.
我收到这个广告。
This ad bridges the gap.
这则广告弥补了这一差距。
And that is also the mission of today's radio program.
这也是今天广播节目的使命。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life, distributed by Public Radio International.
这是来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today on our program, we try to bridge the gap between Americans who love their guns and Americans who hate them.
今天，在我们的节目中，我们试图弥合热爱枪支的美国人和讨厌枪支的美国人之间的差距。
Act One of our program, the NRA meets NEA.
我们计划的第一幕，NRA 与 NEA 会面。
Our own Sarah Vowell goes out shooting with her dad and a gun that weighs 110 pounds.
我们自己的莎拉·沃威尔 (Sarah Vowell) 和她的父亲带着一把重 110 磅的枪出去射击。
Act Two, Fists and Guns.
第二幕，拳头和枪。
A gun control advocate, Geoffrey Canada, explains the pleasure and power of carrying a gun.
枪支管制倡导者杰弗里·卡纳达（Geoffrey Canada）解释了携带枪支的乐趣和力量。
Act Three, Shooter, how somebody goes from victim to perp in one day.
第三幕，射手，一个人如何在一天之内从受害者变成罪犯。
Act Four, Potato Potahto, what it's like getting shot at.
第四幕，Potato Potahto，被枪击是什么感觉。
We hear from two people who drew completely opposite conclusions from the experience.
我们听到两个人从这次经历中得出了完全相反的结论。
Act Five, Straw Man.
第五幕，稻草人。
We'll talk with a man who has put five dozen illegal guns into the hands of criminals for less money than you made this year.
我们将与一个将五打非法枪支交到犯罪分子手中的人交谈，他的钱比你今年赚的钱还少。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, NRA versus NEA.
第一幕，NRA 与 NEA。
Sarah Vowell says that growing up in Oklahoma and Montana, she did not agree with her father about guns.
莎拉·沃威尔说，她在俄克拉荷马州和蒙大拿州长大，在枪支问题上并不同意父亲的观点。
And then one day, back when she was mostly a music critic writing for Spin and all sorts of places like that, she tried to cross the cultural chasm that divides the gun haters from the gun lovers in this country.
然后有一天，当她主要是一名为 Spin 和类似的地方写作的音乐评论家时，她试图跨越这个国家的枪支仇恨者和枪支爱好者之间的文化鸿沟。
If you were passing by the house where I grew up during my teenage years, and it happened to be before election day, you wouldn't have even needed to come inside to see that it was a house divided.
如果你路过我青少年时期长大的房子，而且碰巧是在选举日之前，你甚至不需要走进去就可以看到这是一栋分开的房子。
You could just look at the Democratic campaign poster in the upstairs window and the Republican one in the downstairs window, and see our home for the civil war battleground it was.
你只要看看楼上窗户上的民主党竞选海报和楼下窗户上的共和党竞选海报，就能看到我们的家，那是内战战场。
I'm not saying who was the Democrat and who was the Republican, my father or I, but I will tell you that I am not the one who plastered the family truck with National Rifle Association stickers, that I have never subscribed to Guns & Ammo, and that hunter's orange was never my color.
我不是说谁是民主党谁是共和党，是我的父亲还是我，但我会告诉你，我不是那个在家庭卡车上贴上全国步枪协会贴纸的人，我从未订阅过《枪支与弹药》杂志，猎人的橙色也从来不是我的颜色。
About the only thing my father and I agree on is the Constitution, though I'm partial to the First Amendment while he's always favored the Second.
我和父亲唯一同意的就是宪法，尽管我偏向第一修正案，而他总是支持第二修正案。
I am a gunsmith's daughter.
我是枪匠的女儿。
In our house, or as I like to call it, the United States of Firearms, guns were everywhere-- the so-called pretty ones hanging on the wall, Dad's clients' fixer-uppers leaning in the corners, an entire rack right next to the TV.
在我们的房子里，或者我喜欢称之为枪械的美国，枪无处不在——墙上挂着所谓的漂亮枪，爸爸客户的修理枪靠在角落里，电视旁边有一整架枪。
I had to move revolvers out of my way to make room for my bowl of Rice Krispies on the kitchen table.
我不得不把左轮手枪移开，以便为厨房桌子上的一碗脆米花腾出空间。
Now I even giggle when Dad calls me on election day to cheerfully inform me that he has once again canceled out my vote, but I was not always so mature.
现在，当爸爸在选举日打电话给我，高兴地告诉我他再次取消了我的投票时，我什至咯咯地笑，但我并不总是那么成熟。
There were times when I found the fact that he was a gunsmith horrifying and just weird.
有时候我发现他是一名枪匠这一事实既可怕又奇怪。
All he ever cared about was guns.
他只关心枪。
All I ever cared about was art.
我所关心的只是艺术。
And there were years and years when I holed up in my room reading Allen Ginsberg poems, and he hid out in the garage making rifle barrels, and we weren't capable of having a conversation that didn't end up in argument.
有很多年，我躲在房间里读艾伦·金斯伯格的诗，而他则躲在车库里制作步枪枪管，我们的谈话不可能不以争吵告终。
I have only shot a gun once, and once was plenty.
我只开过一次枪，而且一次就足够了。
My twin sister Amy and I were six years old-- six-- when Dad decided it was high time that we should know how to shoot.
我的双胞胎妹妹艾米和我六岁——六岁——当时爸爸决定我们应该知道如何射击。
Amy remembers the day he handed us the gun for the first time differently.
艾米对他第一次递给我们枪的那一天的记忆有所不同。
She liked it.
她喜欢它。
She says that she thought it meant that Daddy trusted us, and that he thought of us as big girls.
她说她认为这意味着爸爸信任我们，他认为我们是大女孩。
But I remember holding the pistol only made me feel small.
但我记得拿着手枪只会让我感觉自己很渺小。
It was so heavy in my hand.
它在我手里是如此沉重。
I stretched out my arm and pointed it away and winced.
我伸出手臂，指着别处，皱起了眉头。
It was a very long time before I had the nerve to pull the trigger, and I was so scared I had to close my eyes.
过了很长一段时间，我才有勇气扣动扳机，我害怕得闭上了眼睛。
It felt like it just went off by itself, as if I had no say in the matter, as if the gun just had this need.
感觉就像它自己爆炸了，就好像我在这件事上没有发言权，就好像这把枪有这种需要。
The sound it made was as big as God.
它发出的声音如同上帝一般宏大。
It kicked little me back to the ground like a bully, like a foe.
它把小我踢回地上，像一个恶霸，像一个敌人。
It hurt.
很痛。
I don't know if I dropped it or just handed it back over to my dad, but I do remember that I never wanted to touch another one again.
我不知道我是把它掉在地上还是把它交还给我爸爸，但我确实记得我再也不想碰另一个东西了。
And, since I believed in the devil, I did what my mother told me to do every time I felt an evil presence.
而且，由于我相信魔鬼，每当我感觉到邪恶的存在时，我都会按照母亲告诉我的去做。
I whispered under my breath, Satan, I rebuke thee.
我低声说，撒旦，我斥责你。
Now it's not like I'm saying I was traumatized.
现在我并不是说我受到了创伤。
It was more like I was decided-- guns, not for me.
这更像是我的决定——枪支，不适合我。
Lucky for me, both my parents grew up in exasperating households where children were considered puppets and/or slaves.
对我来说幸运的是，我的父母都在令人恼火的家庭中长大，孩子们被视为傀儡和/或奴隶。
So my mom and dad were hell-bent on letting my sister and me make our own choices.
所以我的妈妈和爸爸一意孤行，让我和姐姐做出自己的选择。
So if I decided that I didn't want my father's little death sticks to kick me to the ground again, that was fine with him.
因此，如果我决定不希望父亲的小死亡棒再次将我踢倒在地，那对他来说没问题。
He'd go hunting with my sister, who started calling herself the loneliest twin in history because of my reluctance to engage in family activities.
他会和我姐姐一起去打猎，因为我不愿意参加家庭活动，我姐姐开始称自己是历史上最孤独的双胞胎。
Of course, the fact that I was allowed to voice my opinions did not mean that my father would silence his own.
当然，允许我表达自己的观点并不意味着我的父亲会压制自己的观点。
Some things were said during the Reagan administration that cannot be taken back.
里根执政期间说过的一些话是无法收回的。
I won't bore you with the details.
我不会用细节来烦你。
Let's just say that I blamed my father for nuclear proliferation and Contra aid, while he believed that if I had my way, all the guns would be confiscated, and it would take the commies about 15 minutes to parachute in and assume control.
这么说吧，我把核扩散和反政府援助归咎于我的父亲，而他相信，如果我如愿以偿，所有的枪支都会被没收，而共产党需要大约 15 分钟的时间才能空降并接管控制权。
We're older now, my dad and I, and the older I get, the more I'm interested in becoming a better daughter.
现在，我和爸爸都长大了，我年纪越大，我就越有兴趣成为一个更好的女儿。
First on my list, figure out that whole gun thing.
在我的清单上，首先要弄清楚整个枪的事情。
Not long ago, my dad finished his most elaborate tool of death yet, a cannon.
不久前，我父亲完成了他迄今为止最精致的死亡工具——一门大炮。
He built a 19th century cannon from scratch.
他从头开始建造了一门 19 世纪的大炮。
It took two years.
花了两年时间。
After tooling a million guns, after inventing and building a rifle barrel boring machine, after setting up a complicated shop filled with lathes and bluing tanks and outmoded blacksmithing tools, the cannon is his most ambitious project ever.
在加工了一百万支枪之后，在发明并制造了步枪枪管镗床之后，在建立了一家充满车床、发蓝罐和过时的铁匠工具的复杂车间之后，大炮是他有史以来最雄心勃勃的项目。
I thought that if I was ever going to understand the ballistic bee in his bonnet, this was my chance.
我想，如果我想了解他帽子里的弹道蜜蜂，这就是我的机会。
It was the biggest gun he ever made, and I could experience it and spend time with it with the added bonus of not having to actually pull a trigger myself.
这是他制造过的最大的枪，我可以体验它并花时间使用它，还有一个额外的好处，那就是不必亲自扣动扳机。
I called Dad and said that I wanted to come watch him shoot off the cannon.
我打电话给爸爸说我想来看他放炮。
He was immediately suspicious.
他立刻起了疑心。
He seemed nervous when I told him I wanted to record it, but I had never taken an interest in his work before, and he would take what he could get.
当我告诉他我想录下来时，他显得很紧张，但我以前从未对他的作品感兴趣，他会接受他能得到的东西。
I flew home to Montana.
我飞回蒙大拿州的家。
He loaded it into the back of his truck, and we drove up into the Bridger Mountains.
他把它装进卡车后座，然后我们开车进入布里杰山脉。
And the National Forest Service doesn't mind you setting off fiery balls of metal onto their property?
国家林务局不介意你在他们的土地上点燃炽热的金属球吗？
You cannot shoot fireworks, but this is considered a firearm.
您不能发射烟花，但这被视为枪支。
I should mention that it is a small cannon.
我应该提一下，这是一门小加农炮。
It's as long as a baseball bat and as wide as a coffee can, so it's heavy.
它有棒球棒那么长，咖啡罐那么宽，所以很重。
110 pounds.
110磅。
We get to the mountain.
我们到了山上。
My dad takes his gunpowder and other toys out of this adorable wooden box on which he has stenciled Pat G.
我爸爸从这个可爱的木盒子里拿出了他的火药和其他玩具，上面印有帕特·G。
Vowell Cannonworks.
沃厄尔炮厂。
He plunges his homemade bullets into the barrel, points it at an embankment just to be safe, and lights the fuse.
为了安全起见，他将自制的子弹插入枪管，将其指向路堤，然后点燃导火线。
The fuse is lit.
保险丝点亮。
This is like a cartoon.
这就像一部漫画。
[CANNON FIRES] Oh my god.
[炮火] 天啊。
Oh, there's smoke everywhere.
哦，到处都是烟。
It's like the Fourth of July.
就像七月四日一样。
[SINGS] Oh beautiful, for spacious skies--
[歌唱]哦，美丽，广阔的天空——
I've given this a lot of thought, how to convey the giddiness I felt as the cannon shot off, and I wish there were a more articulate way to say this, but I'm telling you, there isn't.
我已经考虑了很多，如何表达大炮发射时我感到的眩晕，我希望有一种更清晰的方式来表达这一点，但我告诉你，没有。
It's just really, really cool.
这真的非常非常酷。
My dad thought so too.
我爸爸也是这么想的。
It's also loud, louder than I can possibly convey over the radio.
它的声音也很大，比我通过收音机所能传达的声音还要大。
No, let me amend that.
不，让我修改一下。
If you want to understand how loud it was, in a moment, not yet, but when I say, turn the volume on your radio all the way up.
如果你想知道声音有多大，一会儿就知道了，但当我说的时候，把收音机的音量调到最大。
Ready?
准备好？
Now.
现在。
It was so loud and so painful, I had to touch my head to make sure my skull hadn't cracked open.
声音如此之大，如此痛苦，我不得不摸摸我的头，以确保我的头骨没有裂开。
Here's something my dad and I share.
这是我和我爸爸分享的一些东西。
We're both a little hard of hearing.
我们都有点听力不好。
Me from Aerosmith, him from gunsmith.
我来自史密斯飞船，他来自枪匠。
Hey, turn it up again.
嘿嘿，再开一下吧。
[CANNON FIRES] Sarah Vowell Man, good shot Dad.
[炮火]莎拉·沃威尔 曼，射得好，爸爸。
Just as I was wondering what was coming over me, two hikers walked by.
正当我纳闷到底发生了什么的时候，两个徒步旅行者走了过来。
We forced them to politely laugh at our jokes for a while, and Dad set the cannon off again so they could see how it works.
我们强迫他们有礼貌地对我们的笑话笑了一会儿，然后爸爸再次点燃了大炮，以便他们可以看看它是如何工作的。
So you work for the radio, and that's your dad?
那么你在电台工作，那是你的父亲？
Then this odd thing happens.
然后这种奇怪的事情发生了。
When one of the hikers says, that's quite the machine you got there, he isn't talking about the cannon.
当一位徒步旅行者说，这就是你那里的机器时，他说的并不是大炮。
He's talking about my tape recorder and my long radio microphone.
他正在谈论我的录音机和长形无线电麦克风。
I stare back at him, then I look over at my father's cannon, and down at my microphone, and I think, oh my god, my dad and I are the same person.
我回头盯着他，然后看看我父亲的大炮，再看看我的麦克风，我想，天啊，我和我爸爸是同一个人。
We're both smart-alecky loners with goofy projects and weird equipment.
我们都是自作聪明的孤独者，有着愚蠢的项目和奇怪的设备。
And since this whole target practice outing was my idea, I was no longer his adversary.
由于整个打靶练习都是我的主意，我不再是他的对手。
I was his accomplice.
我是他的同谋。
And what's worse, I was liking it.
更糟糕的是，我很喜欢它。
I haven't changed my mind about guns.
我对枪支的看法没有改变。
I can get behind the cannon because it is a completely ceremonial object.
我可以躲在大炮后面，因为它完全是一个仪式物品。
It's unwieldy and impractical just like everything else I care about in the world.
就像我在世界上关心的其他一切一样，它既笨重又不切实际。
Try to rob a convenience store with this 110-pound Saturday night special, you'll still be dragging it in the door Sunday afternoon.
尝试用这个 110 磅的周六晚上特惠来抢劫一家便利店，周日下午你仍然会把它拖进门。
[CANNON FIRES] I love noise.
[炮火]我喜欢噪音。
I make my living writing about it, and I'm always waiting for that moment in a song when something just flies out of it and explodes in the air.
我以写歌为生，我总是在等待歌曲中的那一刻，有什么东西从里面飞出来，在空中爆炸。
My dad is a one-man garage band, the kind of rock-and-roller who slaves away at his art for no other reason than to make his own sound.
我父亲是一支单人车库乐队，是那种埋头苦干艺术的摇滚乐手，除了发出自己的声音之外没有其他原因。
My dad's an artist, a pretty driven idiosyncratic one too, and he's got his last Gesamtkunstwerk all planned out.
我父亲是一位艺术家，也是一位非常有动力的独特艺术家，他已经计划好了他的最后一次总体艺术作品。
It's a performance piece.
这是一个表演作品。
We're all in it, my mom, the loneliest twin in history, and me.
我们都在其中，我的妈妈，历史上最孤独的双胞胎，还有我。
Here's how it goes.
事情是这样的。
When my father dies, take a wild guess what he wants done with his ashes.
当我父亲去世后，大胆猜测他想如何处理他的骨灰。
Here's a hint.
这是一个提示。
It requires a cannon.
它需要一门大炮。
You guys are going to love this.
你们一定会喜欢这个的。
You get to drag this thing up on top of the Gravellies on opening day of hunting season, and looking off at Sphinx Mountain, you get to put me in little paper bags, and I can take my last hunting trip on opening morning.
在狩猎季节的开放日，你可以把这个东西拖到砾石上，眺望狮身人面像山，你可以把我装在小纸袋里，我就可以在开放的早晨进行我最后一次狩猎之旅。
I'll do it too.
我也会做。
I don't know about my mom and my sister, but I'll do it.
我不知道我妈妈和姐姐怎么样，但我会做到的。
I'll have my father's body burned into ashes.
我要把我父亲的尸体烧成灰。
I'll pack this ash into paper bags.
我会把这些灰装入纸袋里。
The morbid joker has already made the molds.
病态小丑已经制作了模具。
I'll go to the mountains with my mother and my sister, bringing the cannon as he asks.
我会按照他的要求，带上大炮，和我的母亲和姐姐一起去山里。
I will plunge his remains into the barrel and point it into a hill so he doesn't take anyone with him.
我会把他的遗体扔进桶里，然后把它指向一座小山，这样他就不会带走任何人了。
I will light the fuse, but I will not cover my ears, because when I blow what used to be my dad into the earth, I want it to hurt.
我会点燃导火索，但我不会捂住耳朵，因为当我把曾经是我父亲的东西吹进土里时，我希望它受伤。
[MUSIC - "FATHER DEATH BLUES" BY ALLEN GINSBERG]
[音乐 - 艾伦·金斯堡的《死亡之父蓝调》]
Act Two, Fists and Guns.
第二幕，拳头和枪。
Drive-by shootings and tragic assaults where one teenager shoots another for a jacket or a pair of Nikes are such old news that we forget how we got to this point.
驾车枪击事件和一名青少年为了一件夹克或一双耐克而射杀另一名青少年的悲惨袭击已经是老新闻了，以至于我们忘记了我们是如何走到这一步的。
Geoffrey Canada grew up in a tough neighborhood in the South Bronx before guns were commonplace in teenage culture there.
杰弗里·卡纳达（Geoffrey Canada）在南布朗克斯的一个艰苦社区长大，当时枪支在那里的青少年文化中还很普遍。
He's also been a gun owner himself.
他本人也是一名枪支拥有者。
We wanted to talk to him about that, but first, a few words about the days before guns.
我们想和他谈谈这件事，但首先，谈谈枪支出现之前的日子。
I'll tell you, it was an absolute shock for me and my brothers when we moved from a relatively quiet area of the South Bronx, to what to us looked like a children's paradise, with children playing in the streets and games.
我告诉你，当我们从南布朗克斯一个相对安静的地区搬到一个在我们看来像是儿童天堂的地方时，我和我的兄弟们绝对感到震惊，孩子们在街上玩耍和游戏。
And we moved on the third floor on the front of the building.
我们搬到了大楼前面的三楼。
And I remember my brothers and I, we were waving at the little boys and girls from our window, waiting to go downstairs and make some friends.
我记得我和我的兄弟们，我们在窗外向小男孩和小女孩挥手，等待下楼去交一些朋友。
And one of the boys, they looked up, and he pointed his finger at me, took his fist, balled it into a fist, and rubbed it in his eye, and pointed back at me.
其中一个男孩抬起头，用手指指着我，握紧拳头，揉搓眼睛，然后又指着我。
And I remember looking at my brothers and saying, you know, I think that boy wants to beat us up.
我记得看着我的兄弟们说，你知道，我认为那个男孩想殴打我们。
And we were stunned.
我们都惊呆了。
We were like, for what?
我们当时想，为了什么？
Why would they want to fight us?
他们为什么要与我们作战？
And we went to our mother, and we told her, Ma, I think the boys want to beat us up downstairs.
我们去找妈妈，告诉她，妈妈，我想那些男孩想在楼下打我们。
And you know how mothers are.
你知道母亲们是怎样的。
She was like, oh, don't be foolish.
她说，哦，别犯傻了。
You don't even know those boys.
你甚至不认识那些男孩。
Why would they want to beat you up?
他们为什么要打你？
Just go down there and play.
就去那里玩吧。
And we realized we were literally on our own with this.
我们意识到我们真的只能靠自己来解决这个问题。
And it was from that initial introduction, each one of us had to go downstairs, have a fight, before we were accepted on the block.
正是从最初的介绍开始，我们每个人都必须下楼去打架，然后才能被接纳到街区。
And when I look back on it, it was like you had to see where you fit in into a hierarchy in terms of being able to fight.
当我回顾它时，就好像你必须看看自己在战斗能力方面处于哪个等级制度中。
And once that was established, you were pretty much OK on the block.
一旦建立起来，你就一切顺利了。
One of the things that you write about is that you say that the older boys on the block when you grew up would set the younger boys fighting.
你写的一件事是你说，当你长大后，街区里年龄较大的男孩会让年龄较小的男孩打架。
That's correct.
这是正确的。
And you know, it seemed awfully cruel to me before I knew sort of what I call the codes of violence that existed at that time.
你知道，在我知道当时存在的所谓暴力准则之前，这对我来说似乎非常残酷。
That we would just be sitting around, and the older boys would just really set us up to fight one another.
我们只是坐在一起，而年长的男孩就会真正让我们互相争斗。
They would just simply start, Rodney, can you beat Geoff?
他们只是简单地开始，罗德尼，你能打败杰夫吗？
And Rodney would say, I don't know.
罗德尼会说，我不知道。
And he'd say, well you scared of him?
他会说，你害怕他吗？
And he says, I'm not scared of him.
他说，我不怕他。
They say, well Geoff, you scared of him?
他们说，好吧，杰夫，你害怕他吗？
He's like, I'm not.
他就像，我不是。
And you were just trapped, and I would be sitting there thinking, why are they doing this?
你只是被困住了，而我会坐在那里思考，他们为什么要这么做？
Why me and Rodney?
为什么是我和罗德尼？
We were just friends, and the next thing you know we'd be having a fistfight.
我们只是朋友，接下来我们就会打架。
Later I found out that the older boys really felt it was their responsibility to teach us how to fight, because if we didn't learn it on Union Avenue, which was the block I grew up on in the South Bronx, then the other kids from Home Street, and Prospect Avenue, 157th Street, they would take advantage of us.
后来我发现，年纪较大的男孩们确实觉得教我们如何打架是他们的责任，因为如果我们不在联合大道（我在南布朗克斯长大的街区）学习如何打架，那么来自家乡街、展望大道和第 157 街的其他孩子就会利用我们。
But this was really largely fistfighting between kids that had rules around them.
但这实际上主要是那些有规则的孩子之间的打斗。
In my neighborhood there was no wrestling allowed in a fight, and the kids would break it up if you started to wrestle.
在我家附近，打架时不允许摔跤，如果你开始摔跤，孩子们就会制止。
They'd be like, no, no, that's not fair.
他们会说，不，不，这不公平。
No. I have no idea.
不，我不知道。
In another place, it was totally all right.
在另一个地方，完全没问题。
But we really believed in these rules.
但我们确实相信这些规则。
And in the end the worst that would happen was maybe a kid would get a bloody nose, but no real long-lasting damage to you.
最后最糟糕的情况可能是一个孩子会流鼻血，但不会对你造成真正的持久伤害。
Explain what the other rules were.
解释一下其他规则是什么。
What were other parts of the code of conduct?
行为准则的其他部分是什么？
When I was growing up, you had to fight somebody your own size.
在我成长的过程中，你必须与和你一样大的人战斗。
I mean, there was a real thing that people would say you couldn't pick on somebody smaller than you.
我的意思是，人们确实会说你不能选择比你小的人。
And people really reinforced this, and they would say, why are you bothering him?
人们确实强化了这一点，他们会说，你为什么打扰他？
He's not your size.
他不是你的尺寸。
You can pick on me.
你可以挑衅我。
I'm your size.
我是你的尺寸。
And people really believed that.
人们真的相信这一点。
You couldn't fight girls, and these were pretty well-understood by the other members of our youth community.
你不能和女孩打架，我们青年社区的其他成员对此非常理解。
One of the things about this whole system is that you could have a fight, and you could lose, and you could still maintain face.
整个系统的一个特点是，你可以打架，也可以输，但你仍然可以保住面子。
Oh, absolutely.
哦，绝对是。
There was no real shame in losing a fight if you fought well and courageously, and someone was just more skilled than you.
如果你打得好、勇敢，而且有人比你更有技巧，那么输掉一场比赛并没有真正的耻辱。
Indeed, once that was established, you could accept the fact that someone could beat you.
事实上，一旦确立了这一点，你就可以接受有人可以打败你的事实。
And people would just ask, can you beat Tommy?
人们会问，你能打败汤米吗？
And I would be like, no. And it was no big deal.
我会说，不。这没什么大不了的。
They would just say, OK, Tommy's more skilled.
他们只会说，好吧，汤米技术更好。
But it didn't mean that under certain conditions I wouldn't fight Tommy.
但这并不意味着在某些情况下我不会与汤米战斗。
They really were.
他们确实是。
And typically there were not what I would consider to be a lot of random fights.
通常情况下，不会出现我认为的大量随机战斗。
Every now and then there'd be some fight between two guys who were trying to work something out, but basically everybody learned where they were in the pecking order, and we established some levels of comfort with one another.
两个试图解决问题的人之间时不时会发生一些争执，但基本上每个人都知道自己在啄食顺序中的位置，并且我们彼此之间建立了一定程度的舒适度。
Now with more guns on the street, what has happened to that system of checks?
现在街上的枪支越来越多，检查制度发生了什么变化？
Well, you know it's really changed dramatically.
嗯，你知道它确实发生了巨大的变化。
One of the things that happens when you have a handgun is that you don't have to think about the consequences of your behavior that leads you into a confrontation.
当你拥有手枪时会发生的事情之一是，你不必考虑导致冲突的行为的后果。
And what I mean by that is that we actually had to think when we said something back.
我的意思是，当我们回嘴时，我们实际上必须思考。
If we were walking down the block and somebody said something to us, and they were bigger than us, we had to think, jeez, if say something to this guy, am I really prepared to go fight him?
如果我们沿着街区走，有人对我们说了些什么，而他们比我们大，我们就必须想，天啊，如果对这个家伙说些什么，我真的准备好去和他战斗了吗？
And often the case was no, I don't think so.
通常情况是否定的，我不这么认为。
So I'm going to pretend I didn't hear it.
那我就假装没听见吧。
With the handgun, you can really say, I don't care how big somebody is.
有了手枪，你真的可以说，我不在乎一个人有多大。
No one's going to say that to me.
没有人会对我这么说。
And when someone does, you stop, and you say, who are you talking to?
当有人这样做时，你停下来问，你在跟谁说话？
And you're prepared to take it to the next level.
您已准备好将其提升到一个新的水平。
In your book Fist Stick Knife Gun there comes a point where you talk about when you got a handgun yourself.
在您的《拳头刀枪》一书中，您谈到了您自己拥有手枪的情况。
Let me ask you to read 101 in your book.
让我请你读一下你书中的101。
Terrific, I'm going to read Chapter 14, part of it.
太棒了，我要去读第 14 章的一部分。
In 1971, well before the explosion of handguns on the streets of New York City, I bought a handgun.
1971 年，在纽约街头手枪爆炸之前，我买了一把手枪。
I bought the gun legally in Maine where I was in college.
我在缅因州上大学时合法购买了这把枪。
The clerk only wanted to see some proof of residency, and my Bowdoin College ID card was sufficient.
办事员只想看一些居住证明，我的鲍登学院身份证就足够了。
The gun was exactly what I needed.
这把枪正是我所需要的。
It was so small I could slip into my coat pocket or pants pocket.
它太小了，我可以放进外套口袋或裤子口袋里。
I needed the gun because we had moved from Union Avenue to 183rd Street in the Bronx, but I still traveled back to Union Avenue during the holidays when I was home from school.
我需要这把枪，因为我们已经从布朗克斯区的联合大道搬到了 183 街，但放学回家时，我仍然在假期回到联合大道。
The trip involved walking through some increasingly dangerous territory.
这次旅行涉及穿越一些日益危险的地区。
New York City was going through one of its gang phases, and several new ones had sprung up in the Bronx.
纽约市正在经历一个帮派阶段，而布朗克斯区又出现了几个新的帮派阶段。
One of the gangs liked to hang out right down the block from where we now lived on 183rd Street and Park Avenue.
其中一个团伙喜欢在我们现在居住的第 183 街和公园大道交汇处的街区附近闲逛。
When I first went away to school, I paid no mind to the large group of kids that I used to pass on my way to the store or to the bus stop back to the Bronx.
当我第一次去上学时，我并不关心我在去商店或返回布朗克斯的公共汽车站的路上经过的一大群孩子。
The kids were young, 14 or 15 years old.
孩子们都很年轻，只有 14 或 15 岁。
At 19 I was hardly worried about a bunch of street kids who thought they were tough, but over the course of the next year the kids got bolder and more vicious.
19 岁时，我几乎不担心一群自认为很坚强的街头孩子，但在接下来的一年里，孩子们变得更加大胆、更加恶毒。
On several occasions I watched with alarm as swarms of teenagers pummeled adults who had crossed them in one way or another.
有好几次，我惊恐地看到成群结队的青少年殴打那些以某种方式与他们发生冲突的成年人。
Everyone knew they were a force to be reckoned with, and many a man and woman crossed the street or walked around the block to keep from having to walk past them.
每个人都知道他们是一股不可忽视的力量，许多男人和女人穿过街道或绕着街区走，以避免从他们身边走过。
And I crossed the street also, and there were times that I went out of my way to go to another store rather than walk past a rowdy group of boys who seemed to own the block.
我也过马路，有时我特意去另一家商店，而不是走过一群吵闹的男孩，他们似乎是这个街区的主人。
On more than one occasion I rounded the corner only to come face to face with the gang.
我不止一次转过街角，却与那帮人面对面。
I could feel their eyes on me as I looked straight ahead, hoping none of them would pick a fight.
当我直视前方时，我能感觉到他们的目光注视着我，希望他们都不会挑衅。
After having survived growing up in the Bronx, here I was scared to go home and walk down my own block.
在布朗克斯长大后，我害怕回家并走在自己的街区。
The solution was simple.
解决方案很简单。
I had a gun.
我有一把枪。
I had a gun and an attitude.
我有一把枪和一种态度。
When I look back on the power the gun had over my personality and my judgment, I am amazed.
当我回顾这把枪对我的性格和判断力的影响时，我感到很惊讶。
It didn't happen all at once.
这并不是一下子发生的。
The change was subtle.
这种变化是微妙的。
At first I continue to avoid the gang of teenagers.
起初我继续避开这群青少年。
I crossed the street or turned down another block when I saw them.
当我看到他们时，我穿过马路或转入另一个街区。
But slowly, as I carried the gun with me day after day, my attitude began to change.
但慢慢地，随着我日复一日地带着枪，我的态度开始改变。
I begin to think, why should I have to walk an extra block?
我开始思考，为什么我要多走一个街区？
Why should I feel that I have to cross the street or look down when I pass those kids?
当我经过那些孩子时，为什么我会觉得我必须过马路或低头看？
By the end of two weeks, I had convinced myself that all of the habits I had cultivated to avoid conflict with the gang were unnecessarily conciliatory.
两周后，我说服自己，我为避免与帮派发生冲突而养成的所有习惯都是不必要的和解。
My behavior when I went outside began to change.
当我外出时，我的行为开始改变。
I stopped going out of my way, or crossing the street, or avoiding eye contact when I passed the gang.
当我经过这帮人时，我不再特意穿过街道，也不再避免目光接触。
In fact, I began to do the opposite.
事实上，我开始做相反的事情。
I would choose to go to the grocery store on the side of the street where the gang was gathered.
我会选择去帮派聚集的街边的杂货店。
I would walk through them head up, eyes challenging, hand in my coat pocket, finger on the trigger.
我会抬起头走过它们，眼神充满挑战，手插在外套口袋里，手指放在扳机上。
I was prepared to shoot to kill to defend myself.
我准备开枪杀人以保护自己。
My rationale was that I was minding my own business, not bothering anyone, but I wasn't going to take any stuff from anyone.
我的理由是，我只管自己的事，不打扰任何人，但我不会从任何人那里拿走任何东西。
If they decided to jump me, well they would get what they deserved.
如果他们决定跳过我，那么他们就会得到他们应得的。
I was lucky that winter break.
那个寒假我很幸运。
The time quickly came for me to go back to college and no member of the gang had felt the need to challenge a strange young man with fire in his eyes and his hand always in his coat pocket.
很快我就回到大学了，而团伙中没有人觉得有必要挑战一个眼里冒着火、手总是插在外套口袋里的陌生年轻人。
I knew if I continued to carry the gun in the Bronx, it would simply be a matter of time before I was forced to use it.
我知道如果我继续在布朗克斯携带枪，我被迫使用它只是时间问题。
My behavior would become more and more reckless each day.
我的行为一天天变得越来越鲁莽。
I unloaded the gun, wrapped it in a newspaper, took it to the town dump, and threw it away.
我把枪卸下来，用报纸包起来，带到镇上的垃圾场，然后扔掉。
Geoffrey Canada reading from his book Fist Stick Knife Gun.
杰弗里·加拿大正在阅读他的《拳头刀枪》一书。
Geoffrey Canada says that the kind of fistfights that he grew up with ended in the Bronx in the 1970s.
杰弗里·卡纳达 (Geoffrey Canada) 表示，他从小到大的那种打架行为在 20 世纪 70 年代的布朗克斯就已经结束了。
At one point in his book, he's told that one reason for the increase of handguns in the hands of teenagers is because the gun manufacturers, after saturating the market of white males, started to market guns to women and to young people.
在他的书中，他曾提到，青少年手中手枪数量增加的一个原因是，枪支制造商在白人男性市场饱和后，开始向女性和年轻人推销枪支。
It was absolutely-- for me it was a devastating discovery, because I was just really mortified to find out that what I considered to be my young people accidentally figuring out how to find these handguns through some hard looking and digging around in the inner cities was actually a marketing campaign that was aimed directly at them.
这对我来说绝对是一个毁灭性的发现，因为我真的很羞愧地发现，我认为是我的年轻人通过在内城的一番艰苦寻找和挖掘无意中发现了如何找到这些手枪，实际上是一场直接针对他们的营销活动。
And they started to change the names of handguns to make them more attractive to kids.
他们开始更改手枪的名称，以使它们对孩子们更具吸引力。
Yes, and they weren't finding these handguns.
是的，他们没有找到这些手枪。
The handgun manufacturers were finding my kids.
手枪制造商正在寻找我的孩子。
And it was not a small campaign.
这不是一场小规模的活动。
It was funded by millions of dollars.
它的资金达数百万美元。
Can you imagine what you would have thought as a kid if when you were 7 you would know that someday decades later you would be sitting in a studio?
你能想象如果你七岁时知道几十年后的某一天你会坐在工作室里，你会怎么想？
You would be writing a book about how much better it was back then?
你会写一本关于当时情况有多好的书吗？
Yes.
是的。
No, absolutely I could not have imagined doing that.
不，我绝对无法想象这样做。
And it's one of the things that really shocked me so much, was that I remember these times as being so tough.
真正令我震惊的事情之一是，我记得那些时光是如此艰难。
But yet I have to agree that this is tougher.
但我不得不承认这更困难。
It is tougher when you're dealing with the fact of you could die than when you're dealing with the fact that you could get beat up.
当你面对你可能会死的事实时，比你面对你可能会被殴打的事实时更困难。
Both are horrible for children, and I don't want to pretend that it's not damaging to a child emotionally to grow up fearing for their physical safety.
两者对孩子来说都是可怕的，我不想假装孩子在成长过程中担心自己的人身安全不会在情感上造成伤害。
It's just more damaging to grow up fearing that you're going to be killed.
在成长过程中担心自己会被杀只会造成更大的伤害。
Geoffrey Canada is the author of Fist Stick Knife Gun, A Personal History of Violence in America.
杰弗里·卡纳达 (Geoffrey Canada) 是《拳头刀枪》、《美国暴力的个人史》一书的作者。
He now runs one of the most ambitious programs in the country to help children in neighborhoods like the one he grew up in, the Harlem Children's Zone, which is remaking 100 blocks in central Harlem, and his model the Obama administration is planning to use across the country.
他现在正在实施全国最雄心勃勃的项目之一，旨在帮助像他长大的社区一样的哈莱姆儿童区中的儿童，该项目正在重建哈莱姆区中部的 100 个街区，奥巴马政府正计划在全国范围内使用他的模式。
Coming up, what it's like getting shot, and what it's like to sell guns to criminals.
接下来，就是被枪杀是什么感觉，以及向罪犯出售枪支是什么感觉。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International when our program continues.
一分钟后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, of course, we choose a theme and bring you a variety of different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，我们的节目每周都会选择一个主题，并为您带来有关该主题的各种不同类型的故事。
Today's program, guns and the people who love them.
今天的节目，枪支和热爱枪支的人。
We are at Act Three of our program.
我们正处于计划的第三幕。
Round three, Shooter.
第三回合，射手。
This next story I think is the quintessential gun story because it is both about the fear of guns and the desire for them, the pleasure people take in them.
我认为下一个故事是典型的枪支故事，因为它既讲述了对枪支的恐惧，也讲述了对枪支的渴望，以及人们从枪支中获得的乐趣。
A Chicago playwright named Bryn Magnus told this story on stage here in Chicago.
一位名叫布林·马格纳斯的芝加哥剧作家在芝加哥的舞台上讲述了这个故事。
As a kid growing up in Wisconsin, Bryn Magnus was terrorized by a bully named Dennis Schultz who used to beat him up all the time.
当布林·马格努斯在威斯康星州长大时，他被一个名叫丹尼斯·舒尔茨的恶霸吓坏了，他经常殴打他。
So he would pound on me really bad, and I would take it year after year, and I would get pretty good at looking wounded so he would stop sooner.
所以他会狠狠地攻击我，而我会年复一年地承受这种打击，而且我会很擅长看起来受伤，所以他会更快停止。
But anyway, one day I was with his cousin Kurt Schultz and Marky Welkirk and a couple of other guys at Kurt Schultz's house in his bedroom, and we were smoking pot and listening to Pink Floyd.
但无论如何，有一天，我和他的表弟库尔特·舒尔茨 (Kurt Schultz)、马基·韦尔柯克 (Marky Welkirk) 以及其他几个人一起在库尔特·舒尔茨 (Kurt Schultz) 家里的卧室里，我们一边抽着大麻，一边听平克·弗洛伊德 (Pink Floyd) 的音乐。
And the door kicked open, and it was Dennis, and he had his father's Luger pistol.
门被踢开，是丹尼斯，他拿着他父亲的鲁格手枪。
And he turned and he said, Smokey, Smokey, and then he shot Kurt Schultz in the head.
他转身说，斯莫基，斯莫基，然后他朝库尔特·舒尔茨的头部开枪。
And Kurt flipped over the chair he was sitting in back like that, and we all totally freaked out, and I dove out the window.
库尔特就这样翻转了他坐在后面的椅子，我们都吓坏了，我跳出了窗外。
I just felt glass shattering around me, and I started running.
我只感觉周围的玻璃碎裂了，我开始奔跑。
And as I was running down the street, I heard Dennis Schultz scream, get your ass back here, faggot.
当我沿着街道奔跑时，我听到丹尼斯·舒尔茨尖叫，滚回来，混蛋。
And I was like oh God, I've got to get away from this guy.
我当时想，天哪，我必须远离这个家伙。
Anyway, I'm running, and he had come out of the room after me through the window.
不管怎样，我正在跑，他已经从窗户跟着我走出了房间。
And I was running down the street, and I heard a shot, and I heard the bullet whistling past me, and I was running as fast as I could.
我沿着街道奔跑，我听到一声枪响，我听到子弹从我身边呼啸而过，我尽我所能地跑。
And then I didn't hear the shot that hit me.
然后我就没有听到击中我的枪声。
I just felt this sting in my back, and it kind of looked like this.
我只是感觉到我的背上有刺痛，看起来就像这样。
The shot spun me around, and I landed, and he came running up to me, and he stood over me with the Luger.
子弹使我旋转，我落地，他向我跑来，拿着鲁格手枪站在我身边。
And he said-- I don't even know what he said actually, because I had by this time soiled my pants, and I was really shaking.
他说——我什至不知道他到底说了什么，因为我已经弄脏了裤子，而且我真的在发抖。
And this was no act.
这并不是什么行为。
I was really frightened.
我真的很害怕。
And he just shot me like five times in the stomach, and I felt each time it hit me.
他在我肚子上开了五枪，每次击中我都有感觉。
I felt it striking me, and I looked down, and it was like wax.
我感觉到它击中了我，我低头一看，它就像蜡一样。
He had taken the bullets out of these bullets and dripped in wax over the gunpowder and put them back in this Luger.
他把子弹从这些子弹中取出，在火药上滴上蜡，然后把它们放回鲁格枪里。
And he had done this act of terrorism, which I thought was really exceptionally creative.
他做出了这种恐怖主义行为，我认为这确实是非常有创意的。
Instantly conscripted my next door neighbor, Chris Williams, to steal his father's .38 Police Special from his bedroom that night, and we spent like hours making these bullets.
那天晚上，我立即征召了我的隔壁邻居克里斯·威廉姆斯 (Chris Williams)，从他父亲的卧室里偷走了他父亲的 0.38 特种警察手枪，我们花了好几个小时来制造这些子弹。
We'd take the lead out of the bullet, and we'd drip a little-- well, first we'd dump a little of the gunpowder out, and then we'd drip a little wax in there, and then we'd put a little ketchup or fake blood in there, and then we'd drip a little more wax on top.
我们把子弹头取出来，滴一点——嗯，首先我们倒掉一点火药，然后滴一点蜡进去，然后放一点番茄酱或假血，然后在上面再滴一点蜡。
And we had it all figured out.
我们已经弄清楚了一切。
And so then we would go out into the countryside on these country roads in Wisconsin that had these really twisty, turny things.
然后我们会沿着威斯康星州的乡村道路进入乡村，那里有非常曲折的东西。
And we would scope it out.
我们会确定范围。
We'd watch the cars go by, and make sure that we had the sight lines all right, and then we would enact these great scenes where one of us would have the gun and the other would be running or standing there like, oh no. So the car would come around the corner and hit us with its light, and it would be like this boom, and ah, and fall.
我们会看着汽车驶过，确保视线正确，然后我们会表演这些伟大的场景，其中一个人拿着枪，另一个人跑着或站在那里，就像，哦不。所以汽车会拐过拐角，用灯光撞到我们，就像这样的繁荣，啊，然后坠落。
The car would screech to a halt, and then we'd get up and run away, and it was really a great time.
汽车会嘎吱嘎吱地停下来，然后我们就会站起来逃跑，这真是一段美好的时光。
And we did one where we were standing in the road, and I was the one who got shot.
我们站在路上做了一场，我就是那个被枪杀的人。
And usually what happens is the car stops like 1,000 yards before he gets to you and then waits until nothing's happening, and then slowly goes past.
通常发生的情况是汽车在他到达你身边之前停在大约 1,000 码处，然后等到什么也没发生，然后慢慢地过去。
Well this car drove right up, and it was a police car.
嗯，这辆车开过来了，是一辆警车。
And these cops get out, and they have strong flashlights, so they can see us laughing in the bushes.
这些警察走了出来，他们有很强的手电筒，所以他们可以看到我们在灌木丛中笑。
And they come over to us, and they weren't too afraid, because by that time we were so afraid.
他们向我们走来，他们并不太害怕，因为那时我们非常害怕。
They didn't think that we were going to do anything with this gun, but they said, what are you kids doing?
他们认为我们不会用这把枪做任何事，但他们说，你们孩子在做什么？
And we told them what we were doing, and he said, oh yeah?
我们告诉他们我们在做什么，他说，哦，是吗？
Let me see.
让我看看。
So I said, OK.
所以我说，好吧。
So I had Chris set up, and we got all set, and these cops were standing there with their flashlights on us.
所以我让克里斯做好了准备，我们也准备好了，这些警察就站在那里，用手电筒照着我们。
And Chris shoots me, and I fall to the ground doing my thing.
克里斯向我开枪，我倒在地上做我的事。
And there's this moment of silence, and the cop goes, yeah, that's pretty good.
沉默片刻后，警察说，是的，这很好。
Do you guys do parties?
你们举办派对吗？
Bryn Magnus recently finished his screenplay, not yet produced, about a morally invisible banker.
布林·马格努斯最近完成了他的剧本，尚未制作，讲述的是一个道德上看不见的银行家。
Act Four, Potato Potahto.
第四幕，土豆 Potahto。
Now the story of two people nearly killed in gun attacks, two people who drew very different conclusions from their experiences.
现在讲述的是两个人在枪击事件中险些丧命的故事，两个人从自己的经历中得出了截然不同的结论。
The first one we're going to hear from is Mike Robbins, a Chicago police officer, who in 1994 was shot 11 times.
我们听到的第一个消息是迈克·罗宾斯 (Mike Robbins)，他是一名芝加哥警官，1994 年身中 11 枪。
One bullet that ripped through his abdomen is still lodged an inch from his spine.
一颗穿过他腹部的子弹距离他的脊椎仍然有一英寸。
A quick warning before we begin.
在我们开始之前快速警告一下。
Some of this might not be suitable for small children.
其中一些可能不适合小孩子。
Robbins was working in the Gang Crimes Unit for the Chicago police.
罗宾斯在芝加哥警方的帮派犯罪部门工作。
He and his partner answered a call about a gang disturbance.
他和他的搭档接听了有关帮派骚乱的电话。
Shots had been heard.
听到了枪声。
They drove down a dark alley.
他们沿着一条黑暗的小巷行驶。
Robbins was driving, and somebody ran up to his side of the car.
罗宾斯正在开车，有人跑到他的车一侧。
It happened so fast, my partner and I didn't get a chance to respond.
事情发生得太快了，我和我的伙伴都没有机会做出反应。
My partner had his gun out.
我的搭档拔出了枪。
I had my gun out.
我把枪拿出来了。
And this individual just stuck the gun in the window and immediately began shooting, and stuck the gun into my chest repeatedly, several times point blank just stuck it into my chest and fired.
而这个人只是把枪插在窗户上，就立即开始射击，并多次将枪插进我的胸口，有几次是近距离地插进我的胸口并开枪。
And he's shooting you in the chest.
他正在向你的胸部开枪。
Were you wearing a bulletproof vest?
你穿防弹背心了吗？
Yes, I was wearing a bulletproof vest.
是的，我穿着防弹背心。
And in effect it's like basically someone taking a cannon and putting it in your chest and firing.
实际上，这基本上就像有人拿起一门大炮，将其放入你的胸口并开火。
That's exactly how hard it is.
这就是它有多难。
It's like a horse maybe or an elephant kicking you in the chest very hard, very painful.
就像一匹马或一头大象狠狠地踢你的胸部，非常痛苦。
Basically in '91 my parents and I had gone to eat at a local restaurant on a bright, sunny day like today.
基本上在 91 年，我和父母在像今天这样阳光明媚的日子去当地的一家餐馆吃饭。
We certainly weren't in a dark alley somewhere where we weren't supposed to be.
我们当然没有在我们不应该在的黑暗小巷里。
This is Suzanna Gratia Hupp, a chiropractor in Texas and a gun owner.
我是苏珊娜·格拉蒂亚·赫普 (Suzanna Gratia Hupp)，她是德克萨斯州的一名脊椎按摩师，也是一名枪支拥有者。
And a crowded restaurant-- it was payday, and it was the day after Boss' Day, a place that we went all the time.
还有一家拥挤的餐厅——那天是发薪日，也是老板节的第二天，我们经常去的地方。
In fact, the manager that day had invited me.
事实上，那天经理邀请了我。
We were done eating, and all of a sudden this guy crashes his truck through the window, and we promptly heard gunshots.
我们吃完饭，突然这个家伙把他的卡车撞破了窗户，我们很快就听到了枪声。
And when we heard that, your first thought is robbery.
当我们听到这个消息时，你的第一个想法就是抢劫。
It's a crowded place.
这是一个拥挤的地方。
It's a robbery.
这是抢劫。
So we immediately drop down.
于是我们立刻就下来了。
My father and I put the table up in front of us.
我和父亲把桌子放在我们面前。
But about 45 seconds into it, I'm going to say probably six people were killed at that point.
但大约 45 秒后，我想说当时可能有 6 人被杀。
He was not spraying bullets.
他没有喷子弹。
He was simply walking from one person to the other, aiming, and pulling the trigger.
他只是从一个人走到另一个人，瞄准，扣动扳机。
In my case, the individual, I could never forget his face because his face was closer than yours and mine.
就我个人而言，我永远无法忘记他的脸，因为他的脸比你和我的脸更近。
And was he cold and clinical about it, or was he just angry?
他对此是冷漠而冷静的，还是只是生气？
Very much so.
非常如此。
Ira Glass He was clinical?
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 他很临床吗？
Very cold, very clinical, and just shooting, shooting repeatedly.
非常冷，非常临床，只是拍摄，反复拍摄。
My partner was shot six times.
我的搭档中了六枪。
We screamed and hollered in the car at each other.
我们在车里互相尖叫、大喊大叫。
There was just a lot of screaming and hollering.
只有很多尖叫声和叫喊声。
Some of the things were inaudible.
有些事情是听不见的。
We're going to die.
我们快要死了。
We're going to die.
我们快要死了。
Help me.
帮我。
Tell my mother I love her.
告诉我妈妈我爱她。
I love you.
我爱你。
I told him that I love you, and he told me he loved me.
我告诉他我爱你，他也告诉我他爱我。
Actually you would have expected it to be pandemonium, but no, it was very quiet, in fact.
事实上，你本以为会是一片混乱，但事实并非如此，事实上，它非常安静。
And you can ask anybody about that particular day.
你可以向任何人询问那一天的情况。
It was oddly quiet.
气氛出奇的安静。
You'd hear an occasional scream or an occasional moan or an occasional instruction shouted, like get down or something like that.
你会偶尔听到尖叫声、呻吟声或偶尔喊叫的指令，比如趴下或类似的声音。
But otherwise it was just completely silent?
但除此之外，它只是完全沉默？
Yes.
是的。
Mike Robbins I felt it took forever.
迈克·罗宾斯 我觉得这花了很长时间。
The shooting was like in slow motion.
拍摄就像慢动作一样。
When I look back at it in retrospect, I see things very slowly now.
现在回想起来，我看事情的速度非常慢。
At this point he was about 15 feet from us.
此时他距我们约 15 英尺。
He was about 3/4 of his back turned toward me.
他大约 3/4 的背部转向我。
I had a place to rest my arm.
我有一个地方可以休息我的手臂。
It was a perfect opportunity.
这是一个绝佳的机会。
Perfect shot.
完美的拍摄。
Suzanna Hupp And then I realized that a few months earlier I made the stupidest decision of my life.
苏珊娜·赫普 然后我意识到几个月前我做出了一生中最愚蠢的决定。
My gun was 100 yards away in my car, completely useless to me, because I had chosen to obey Texas laws.
我的枪在 100 码外的车里，对我来说完全没用，因为我选择遵守德克萨斯州的法律。
My partner couldn't get a shot off at a guy on the side because he was-- as he explained to me later on, I was busy bouncing up and down in the car back and forth and up and down, that if he'd have shot, he probably would've shot me.
我的搭档无法向旁边的一个人开枪，因为他——正如他后来向我解释的那样，我正忙着在车里来回跳动，如果他开枪，他可能也会开枪打我。
Well at that point my father began to raise up and say, I got to do something.
就在那时，我父亲开始站起来说，我必须做点什么。
I got to do something.
我必须做点什么。
He's going to kill everybody in here.
他要杀了这里的所有人。
And my attention turned to him, and I started grabbing him by the shirt and pulling him down.
我的注意力转向他，我开始抓住他的衬衫，把他拉下来。
All the strength had been blown out of me, literally.
毫不夸张地说，我所有的力量都被耗尽了。
I could no longer struggle or fight with this individual.
我无法再与这个人斗争或战斗。
But when he saw what he thought was an opportunity, he jumped up and ran at the guy.
但当他看到一个他认为是机会的机会时，他跳了起来，向那家伙跑去。
Well, the guy saw my dad coming.
嗯，那家伙看到我爸爸来了。
He turned, pulled the trigger, shot my father in the chest.
他转身，扣动扳机，朝我父亲的胸部开了一枪。
And I felt that this is the way I was going to die, and this is how it feels to die.
我觉得这就是我要死的方式，这就是死的感觉。
These things were running through my mind as he was shooting.
当他拍摄时，这些事情在我脑海中闪过。
I stood up and I grabbed my mother by the shirt collar, and I said, come on, come on, we've got to run.
我站起来，抓住妈妈的衬衫领子，我说，来吧，来吧，我们得跑了。
We've got to get out of here.
我们必须离开这里。
And my feet grew wings, and I was one of the only people out of the front area there to make it out of the back.
我的脚长出了翅膀，我是前场区域中唯一能从后场冲出来的人之一。
About 23 people.
约23人。
And I turned around to say something to my mother, and realized that she had not followed me out.
我转身想对妈妈说点什么，发现她并没有跟着我出去。
One of the interesting things that happened was that I saw a vision of my mother at the time when we were shot.
发生的一件有趣的事情是，当我们被枪杀时，我看到了我母亲的异象。
And my mother had passed in 1982.
我的母亲于 1982 年去世了。
And if we have time I could tell you, but it doesn't take too long.
如果我们有时间我可以告诉你，但不会花太长时间。
But at the time when this individual was shooting and shooting and shooting in our car, I somehow mustered enough strength to turn my body to the left.
但当这个人在我们的车里射击、射击、射击时，我不知何故积聚了足够的力量，将我的身体转向左侧。
And when I did so, my mother just was in the back of the car, and she just grabbed me and pulled me right to her bosom, and just pulled my head right into her chest.
当我这么做的时候，我妈妈就在车后座，她抓住了我，把我拉到她怀里，把我的头拉进她的胸口。
She had no clothes on at all.
她根本就没有穿衣服。
She just pulled me right to her bare breasts, and just pulled me close.
她只是把我拉到她裸露的乳房上，然后把我拉得很近。
And at that time there was another loud bang and a big kick in my back.
就在这时，又是一声巨响，我的背上又被踢了一脚。
And he had shot me in the left side of my back in the shoulder blade, I found out later on.
后来我发现，他朝我后背左侧的肩胛骨开了一枪。
And then my mother had released me, and at that time the individual who was doing the shooting, he took off running down the alley.
然后我妈妈放开了我，当时负责拍摄的人就沿着小巷跑了。
And I later learned from the cops my mother had crawled over to where my father was, and was cradling him until the gunman got back around to her.
后来我从警察那里得知，我母亲爬到了我父亲所在的地方，抱着他，直到枪手回到她身边。
And they said he put the gun to her head, she looked up at him and put her head down, and he pulled the trigger.
他们说他用枪指着她的头，她抬头看着他，低下头，然后他扣动了扳机。
Well, just prior to the trial as we were being prepped by the state attorney's office, they were asking what happened next, and what happened next, and what happened next.
嗯，就在审判之前，州检察官办公室正在为我们做准备，他们询问接下来发生了什么，接下来发生了什么，接下来发生了什么。
And I explained to them, and I explained to them just like I mentioned to you about my mother appearing and pulling me close to her.
我向他们解释，就像我向你们提到我母亲出现并将我拉近她一样。
And they advised me not to do so.
他们建议我不要这样做。
Not to mention that on the stand, because they did not want to prejudice the jury or put anything into their mind, and perhaps them thinking that maybe I was suffering a period of delusion, and if doing so, then maybe I wouldn't recognize this individual who shot me.
更不用说在证人席上，因为他们不想让陪审团产生偏见，也不想把任何事情放在心上，也许他们认为我可能正经历一段妄想症，如果这样做，那么也许我就认不出这个开枪打死我的人了。
So at the time when I went on the stand, I told the jury that I had saw my mother.
所以当我出庭时，我告诉陪审团我看到了我的母亲。
I told them the very same thing.
我告诉他们同样的事情。
I didn't want to hide it at all.
我根本不想隐藏它。
My reason for saying is that to deny that this happened would be to deny that I saw my mother, to deny that God exists.
我这么说的理由是，否认这件事的发生就等于否认我见过我的母亲，否认上帝的存在。
And I did not want to do that.
我不想那样做。
I don't think that I would be able to live with myself.
我不认为我能够和自己一起生活。
I would've been better off dead.
我死了会更好。
The individual might as well have just shot me and killed me.
这个人可能刚刚开枪杀了我。
Mike Robbins came out of the experience a firm advocate for stricter gun control.
迈克·罗宾斯（Mike Robbins）从这段经历中坚定地倡导更严格的枪支管制。
He got rid of his own guns and began speaking around the country about the issue.
他扔掉了自己的枪支，并开始在全国各地谈论这个问题。
Suzanna Gratia Hupp meanwhile became a visible and important spokesperson in the fight to change the gun laws in Texas to allow concealed weapons.
与此同时，苏珊娜·格拉蒂亚·赫普 (Suzanna Gratia Hupp) 成为德克萨斯州修改枪支法以允许隐藏武器的斗争中的重要发言人。
Soon after her side won and concealed weapons became legal in Texas, she was elected as a state representative.
在她所在的一方获胜并且隐藏武器在德克萨斯州变得合法后不久，她就被选为州代表。
What do you make of somebody who goes through something very similar to what you went through and concludes the opposite?
如果有人经历了与你非常相似的事情却得出相反的结论，你会怎么看？
Well, I don't mean to chuckle.
嗯，我不是故意笑的。
I guess I've just heard this sort of thing so many times, but it does kind of floor me.
我想我已经听过很多次这样的事情了，但这确实让我感到震惊。
What I don't understand is that their logic seems to stop at the point that they think the gun is the bad guy.
我不明白的是，他们的逻辑似乎止步于他们认为枪是坏人。
Somebody that you're already talking about is willing to overlook the highest law of the land, which is taking somebody's life.
你已经在谈论的某个人愿意忽视这个国家的最高法律，这正在夺走某人的生命。
That somebody who is willing to overlook that law will allow a silly little paperwork law, a gun law, to stop them from murdering somebody.
那些愿意忽视这项法律的人会允许一项愚蠢的小文书法，即枪支法，来阻止他们谋杀某人。
If they want to kill somebody, they're not going to really worry about whether or not they can carry a concealed weapon.
如果他们想杀人，他们不会真正担心自己是否可以携带隐藏武器。
That seems insane to me.
这对我来说似乎很疯狂。
Ira Glass Let me ask you a question.
艾拉·格拉斯 让我问你一个问题。
One of the people who we are interviewing for our show is a woman who is now a state representative in Texas.
我们为我们的节目采访的人之一是一位女性，她现在是德克萨斯州的州代表。
And she had an incident where both her parents were shot, where she was almost shot.
她还发生过一次父母双双被枪杀的事件，她也差点被枪杀。
And what she concluded from that was that she should be able to carry a gun because she could've actually shot the guy.
她从中得出的结论是，她应该能够携带枪，因为她实际上可以射杀那个人。
How can you conclude from one incident that everyone in the total state of Texas should have a gun?
你怎么能从一次事件中得出结论，整个德克萨斯州的每个人都应该拥有一把枪？
What would you say to her, though?
不过你会对她说什么？
I mean, she said that if she had had a gun at that time-- like what would you want to say to her?
我的意思是，她说如果她当时有枪——你想对她说什么？
Well, anyone can say could have, should have, would have.
嗯，任何人都可以说可以、应该、会。
Anyone can say that.
任何人都可以这么说。
I mean, this is America.
我的意思是，这是美国。
You're entitled to say whatever it is you want.
你有权说任何你想说的话。
You have that First Amendment privilege, freedom of speech.
你拥有第一修正案的特权，即言论自由。
I'm thinking about it.
我正在考虑。
I'm thinking like one of the differences between your experience and hers is that when she and her parents were in this experience where they were shot at, she didn't have her gun.
我想你的经历和她的经历之间的区别之一是，当她和她的父母经历被枪杀的经历时，她没有带枪。
But you and your partner, you two men, you both had guns.
但你和你的伴侣，你们两个人，你们都有枪。
We both had guns, and it didn't protect us.
我们都有枪，但它并不能保护我们。
OK, a gun is not a guarantee.
好吧，有枪并不能保证。
It's not a guarantee.
这不是一个保证。
I'm not telling you it's a guarantee.
我不是告诉你这是一个保证。
There are going to be times-- and I tell you, one of the things that I dread is something happening to me, my being, God forbid, murdered at some point, and my being found with the gun somewhere in my possession, because I know people who are anti-gun will use that for all it's worth.
有时候——我告诉你，我害怕的事情之一就是发生在我身上的事情，我的存在，上帝保佑，在某个时候被谋杀，我被发现在我拥有的某个地方拿着枪，因为我知道反枪的人会充分利用它。
And that's probably one of my biggest fears.
这可能是我最大的恐惧之一。
And the fact--
而事实是——
Not that you would get murdered, but that you'd get murdered with the gun, and that you'll be used as propaganda?
不是说你会被谋杀，而是你会被枪杀，然后你会被用作宣传？
Yes.
是的。
Yes, and I have to say a thousand times over, it's not a guarantee.
是的，我必须说一千遍以上，这不是保证。
It simply changes the odds.
它只是改变了赔率。
[MUSIC - "JANIE'S GOT A GUN" BY AEROSMITH]
[音乐 - AEROSMITH 的《珍妮有枪》]
Act Five, Straw Man.
第五幕，稻草人。
The guns that are used in crimes are the guns that give guns a bad name.
用于犯罪的枪支是给枪支带来坏名声的枪支。
And where do those guns come from?
而这些枪又是从哪里来的呢？
Well, most of us assume that they're stolen, but in fact, according to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, only 10% of the guns confiscated at crimes are stolen.
嗯，我们大多数人都认为它们是被盗的，但事实上，根据烟酒枪械局的数据，在犯罪中没收的枪支中只有 10% 是被盗的。
Where do the rest come from?
其余的从哪里来？
60% are purchased legally.
60%是合法购买的。
Tori Marlan wrote about this when she was a staff writer at the Chicago Reader.
托里·马兰（Tori Marlan）在担任《芝加哥读者报》特约撰稿人时曾写过此事。
Most of them are acquired by a means called straw purchasing, and that means that they are purchased by someone who is legally able to buy the gun for someone who is legally unable to buy the gun.
其中大多数是通过一种称为“稻草购买”的方式获得的，这意味着它们是由合法能够购买枪支的人为合法无法购买枪支的人购买的。
So in other words, somebody without a criminal record would go and purchase a gun for somebody who does have a criminal record.
换句话说，没有犯罪记录的人会去为有犯罪记录的人购买枪支。
Right.
正确的。
Ira Glass And so why is this so hard to stop?
Ira Glass 那么为什么这种情况如此难以阻止呢？
Because it's nearly impossible to detect.
因为它几乎不可能被发现。
It's hard to stop a straw purchase in action, because the only way ATF knows that somebody's been straw purchasing is if that person's guns start turning up in crimes, and they're traced back to that person.
很难阻止购买稻草的行为，因为 ATF 知道某人购买稻草的唯一方法是该人的枪支开始在犯罪中出现，并且可以追溯到该人。
For an article in the Chicago Reader, Tori Marlan interviewed a straw purchaser who bought guns for guys in his neighborhood between 1988 and 1990, and then he was caught.
托里·马兰 (Tori Marlan) 在《芝加哥读者报》上发表了一篇文章，采访了一位稻草购买者，他在 1988 年至 1990 年间为他附近的人购买枪支，然后他被抓了。
He served 13 months for dealing firearms without a license.
他因无证经营枪支而入狱 13 个月。
She agreed to re-interview him on tape for This American Life.
她同意在《美国生活》中重新采访他。
Well, the first time I was like walking down the street, and this guy seemed to know who I was, because I used to be a security officer.
嗯，第一次我就像走在街上，这个家伙似乎知道我是谁，因为我曾经是一名保安人员。
So he approached me, and he offered me $200 dollars to buy a gun.
于是他找到我，愿意给我 200 美元买一把枪。
And I thought that was quite a bit of money for me to keep in my pocket.
我认为这对我来说是一笔相当大的钱，可以放在我的口袋里。
Were you working at the time?
你当时在工作吗？
I mean, did you have a steady income?
我的意思是，你有稳定的收入吗？
No, at the time I wasn't working.
不，当时我还没有工作。
So I went on and did that.
所以我继续这么做了。
I told him I wouldn't do it again.
我告诉他我不会再这样做了。
I'd just take the $200 and go and buy him a gun.
我就拿200美元去给他买把枪。
What did you know about him?
你对他了解多少？
Straw Purchaser Well, I knew for one thing that he dealt drugs.
稻草购买者 嗯，我知道他从事毒品交易。
That's about it.
就是这样。
I'd never known him to be a violent guy or anything like that, so I figured that it was just something that he was using for his protection.
我从来不知道他是一个暴力的人或类似的人，所以我认为这只是他用来保护自己的东西。
I had known many drug dealers that had had guns and used them just for their protection.
我认识很多毒贩，他们都拥有枪支，只是为了保护自己而使用枪支。
They didn't go around hurting people or anything.
他们不会到处伤害别人或任何东西。
I thought it might not be a good idea to do, but the same time I was broke.
我认为这可能不是一个好主意，但同时我也破产了。
I figured I wasn't going to do it again anyway, so I might as well do it this one time, get the money, and go ahead on about my business.
我想反正我不会再这么做了，所以我不妨再做一次，拿到钱，然后继续我的生意。
What were the reasons that you thought it might not be such a good idea?
您认为这可能不是一个好主意的原因是什么？
Well, I forgot that if someone did get shot with the gun, it may well could be traced back to me.
好吧，我忘记了，如果有人被枪射中，很可能可以追溯到我身上。
But seeing that those guns, they don't usually try to trace them unless it was a murder.
但看到这些枪，他们通常不会试图追踪它们，除非这是一起谋杀案。
And even then, as long as they got the person that did it, they wouldn't much care where the gun came from.
即便如此，只要找到了做事的人，他们也不会太在意枪是从哪里来的。
So tell me about the day that you went to purchase the gun.
告诉我你去买枪的那一天吧。
Was he with you?
他和你在一起吗？
Yes, he was with me.
是的，他和我在一起。
And we went out there and kind of like just bought the gun and came on back.
我们出去了，就像刚买了枪就回来了。
It wasn't no big deal.
这没什么大不了的。
Did the guy that you were buying the gun for handle the gun?
为你买枪的那个人操作过这把枪吗？
Did he pick out the gun, and did the gun dealer to your knowledge have any suspicion about the sale that he was making?
他是否挑选了这把枪？据您所知，枪支经销商对他的销售是否有任何怀疑？
Well, he did pick the gun out.
好吧，他确实把枪拿出来了。
But see, the suspicion was thrown off because he did it in such a way that it was like I was buying it.
但是你看，怀疑被打消了，因为他这样做的方式就好像我买了它一样。
I knew basically what kind he wanted, so we was looking at the guns.
我基本上知道他想要什么类型的枪，所以我们正在看枪。
And I guess when we saw a couple of them, and he agreed, I agreed, and it was like an agreement that was understood by me and him more so than the dealer.
我想当我们看到他们中的几个时，他同意了，我也同意了，这就像我和他比经销商更理解的协议。
From that point on, he must have had spread the word around, because a couple of guys in the neighborhood started approaching me, and I didn't think that was a good idea.
从那时起，他肯定已经传播了这个消息，因为附近的几个人开始接近我，我认为这不是一个好主意。
Did you know the guys who started approaching you?
你认识那些开始接近你的人吗？
Yes, I did know them.
是的，我确实认识他们。
Tori Marlan What did you know of them?
托里·马兰 你对他们了解多少？
That they basically were the same type of guys.
他们基本上是同一类型的人。
They dealt their little drugs here and there, so I didn't really think it was nothing that they was doing that was shooting people and stuff like that.
他们到处贩卖小毒品，所以我真的不认为他们所做的并不是射杀他人之类的事情。
They just probably wanted their protection.
他们可能只是想要得到保护。
They wanted to just have something for protection just like any citizen would, even though they was kind of like the underworld of citizens.
他们只是想像任何公民一样得到一些保护，尽管他们有点像公民的黑社会。
So how many guns did you eventually supply to these guys?
那么你最终向这些人提供了多少支枪呢？
Well, as time went on over a period of two years, I believe it was something like 60.
嗯，随着时间的流逝，两年多了，我相信大概有 60 岁了。
It was in the area of 60 guns.
那是在60门炮的范围内。
And how much money would you make from the purchases?
您将从购买中赚多少钱？
Well, as time went on it became lesser than that $200, I would say from $50 to $100.
嗯，随着时间的推移，它变得少于 200 美元，我想说从 50 美元到 100 美元。
It jumped all the way down.
它一路跳了下来。
That first guy, when he came along with that deal, it was like something I guess to get me started or something.
第一个家伙，当他提出这笔交易时，我想这就像是让我开始的东西之类的。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Or something that I would do just because of the money.
或者只是因为钱我才会做的事情。
It was like too much to resist, stuff like that.
诸如此类的事情让人无法抗拒。
Because I would say first of all the money came first.
因为我想说首先钱是第一位的。
And the respect that I was given from the neighborhood guys, that that was another thing.
邻居们给予我的尊重，那是另一回事了。
It was a different story from back in the old days when-- because I didn't get that much respect.
这与过去的情况不同，因为我没有得到那么多的尊重。
What do you mean?
你是什么意思？
How did that change for you?
这对你来说有何改变？
In what ways were they showing their respect?
他们以什么方式表达尊重？
Well, they were showing it in more obvious ways.
嗯，他们以更明显的方式展示了这一点。
There was always guys that never had said anything to me before was now-- oh, my buddy here, shaking my hand, and you want a drink or something?
总有一些人以前从未对我说过任何话，但现在——哦，我的朋友在这里，握着我的手，你想喝点东西吗？
Just stuff like that.
就是这样的东西。
So I was getting a lot of recognition.
所以我得到了很多人的认可。
That felt good too.
那感觉也很好。
Like I say, sometimes it was for the wrong thing.
就像我说的，有时是为了错误的事情。
You get all this good recognition for the wrong thing.
你因为错误的事情而得到了所有这些好的认可。
Did you ever wonder what was going to happen to the guns?
你有没有想过这些枪会发生什么？
I mean, did you really believe that the drug dealers wouldn't use them, or would only use them for their own protection?
我的意思是，你真的相信毒贩不会使用它们，或者只会使用它们来保护自己吗？
Did you at any time wonder if they were involved in maybe more serious criminal activity, something that would harm people?
您是否曾想过他们是否参与了更严重的犯罪活动，是否会伤害他人？
Yes, I did begin to wonder and think that they will probably be harming someone with them, because some of these guys didn't look as nice as they should look, so I figured that even though they was just dealing drugs, they might be more than just drug dealers.
是的，我确实开始怀疑并认为他们可能会用他们来伤害别人，因为其中一些人看起来并不像他们应该看起来的那么好，所以我认为即使他们只是贩毒，他们可能不仅仅是毒贩。
And I wanted to get out of that racket for sure, but I couldn't just-- I wanted to tell them that I had lost my gun card, or it got shreded or anything.
我当然想摆脱这种混乱，但我不能只是——我想告诉他们我丢失了我的枪支卡，或者它被撕碎了或者什么的。
But I ended up not being a good liar, I guess.
但我想我最终并不是一个善于撒谎的人。
Did you actually try?
你真的尝试过吗？
Straw Purchaser Well no, I didn't.
稻草购买者 嗯，不，我没有。
I didn't.
我没有。
Did you ever hear about the guns being used in crimes?
您听说过枪支被用于犯罪吗？
Yes, I did.
是的，我做到了。
A few were used in crimes I heard of.
有一些被用于我听说的犯罪活动。
The shootings that I did know about always happened because someone was trying to either stick up one of those dealers, and then ended up getting shot themselves.
我所知道的枪击事件总是发生，因为有人试图陷害其中一名毒贩，然后最终自己被枪杀。
That's all.
就这样。
It wasn't too much other than that.
除此之外并没有太多。
Well, there was once a wild shooting spree that happened, but I think a couple of people did get shot, but no one got killed.
嗯，曾经发生过一场疯狂的枪击事件，但我认为确实有几个人被枪杀，但没有人被杀。
I never knew of any murder exactly, although those federal guys did tell me there was a murder on one of them.
我从来不知道有任何谋杀案，尽管那些联邦官员确实告诉我其中一人发生了谋杀案。
But it was like out of state or something.
但这就像州外之类的。
So were you living off of the income that you were making from buying the guns?
那么你是靠购买枪支的收入生活的吗？
Yes, I was living off of that, and probably a little public aid, general assistance.
是的，我就是靠这个生活的，可能还有一点公共援助，一般援助。
So how much would you estimate that you made in the two years that you were buying the guns?
那么您估计在购买枪支的两年里您赚了多少钱？
I never really gave that a good thought, but I know it would have been somewhere in the $4,000 or $5,000 range.
我从来没有真正考虑过这个问题，但我知道它会在 4,000 美元或 5,000 美元范围内。
So you weren't getting rich off of this.
所以你并没有因此而致富。
No way.
决不。
It was just something to keep my head above water.
这只是让我保持清醒的东西。
This straw purchaser was interviewed by Tori Marlan.
这位稻草购买者接受了托里·马兰(Tori Marlan)的采访。
Only 14 of his guns, out of over 60, have been recovered by police.
他的 60 多支枪中，只有 14 支被警方查获。
Well, our program was produced today by Julie Snyder and myself with Alix Spiegel and Nancy Updike.
嗯，我们今天的节目是由朱莉·斯奈德和我、阿利克斯·斯皮格尔和南希·厄普代克制作的。
Senior editor for this show, Paul Tough.
该节目的高级编辑 Paul Tough。
Contributing editors Jack Hitt, Margy Rochlin, and consigliere Sarah Vowell.
特约编辑 Jack Hitt、Margy Rochlin 和顾问 Sarah Vowell。
Production help from Alex Blumberg, Rachel Howard, Laura Baggett, and Brian Reed.
Alex Blumberg、Rachel Howard、Laura Baggett 和 Brian Reed 为制作提供了帮助。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] Today's program was first broadcast in 1997.
[致谢] 今天的节目于 1997 年首播。
Mike Robbins, the police officer who you heard in Act Four of the show, died a decade after that first broadcast.
迈克·罗宾斯（Mike Robbins），你在节目第四幕中听到的警官，在第一次播出十年后去世。
He died in 2008.
他于 2008 年去世。
He was 57.
他57岁了。
He volunteered with kids in Chicago and remained a vocal activist for stricter handgun control until his death.
他在芝加哥做志愿者，帮助孩子们，直到去世为止，他仍然是一名倡导更严格手枪管制的积极分子。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
WBEZ management oversight for our program by our boss, Mr. Torey Malatia, who describes the first time here at public radio this way.
我们的老板 Torey Malatia 先生对我们的项目进行了 WBEZ 管理监督，他第一次在公共广播电台这样描述。
The sound it made was as big as God.
它发出的声音如同上帝一般宏大。
It kicked little me back to the ground like a bully, like a foe.
它把小我踢回地上，像一个恶霸，像一个敌人。
It hurt.
很痛。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of this American life.
下周我们将带来更多有关美国生活的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。