808: The Rest of the Story - This American Life
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Sign up for a free Life Partners trial, and you can watch the video “A Night of Stories and Improv.”
注册免费试用《Life Partners》，您可以观看视频“故事与即兴表演之夜”。
00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #808 | August 18, 2023 808: The Rest of the Story Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 808 集 | 2023 年 8 月 18 日 808：故事的其余部分 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass For over 30 years, five days a week, there was this thing on the radio called The Rest of the Story, just 3 and 1/2, 4 minutes long.
序言：序言 Ira Glass 30 多年来，每周五天，广播里都有一个叫做“故事的其余部分”的节目，只有 3 又 1/2，4 分钟长。
It ran all over the country.
它跑遍了全国。
Paul Harvey was the announcer.
保罗·哈维是播音员。
He did two other daily broadcasts that, if you ever heard them, you will never forget them-- the way he wrote, the way he sounded.
他还做了另外两场每日广播，如果你听过它们，你将永远不会忘记它们——他写作的方式，他听起来的方式。
Hello, Americans.
你好，美国人。
This is Paul Harvey.
这是保罗·哈维。
Stand by for news.
静候消息。
My first job in Chicago, making stories for NPR, my windows at the NPR Chicago bureau looked out over a section of East Wacker Drive that was called Paul Harvey Drive, which I loved, thinking that somewhere not far from where I was sitting Paul Harvey had been up since 3:30 in the morning, pounding out his scripts on an electric typewriter.
我在芝加哥的第一份工作是为 NPR 制作新闻报道，从 NPR 芝加哥分社的窗户向外望去，可以看到东瓦克大道上一段叫做保罗·哈维大道的路段，我很喜欢这里，心想在离我坐的地方不远的地方，保罗·哈维从凌晨 3:30 就起床了，用电动打字机敲打着剧本。
At his height, he was on over 1,200 radio stations, which, by the way, is more stations than NPR has-- just a massive audience, 24 million.
在他的巅峰时期，他曾在 1,200 多个广播电台工作过，顺便说一句，这比 NPR 的广播电台还要多——但听众人数却非常庞大，只有 2,400 万。
His daily show, Paul Harvey News and Comment, was the day's news delivered like brisk radio poetry with some folksy humor or some conservative opinion.
他的每日节目“保罗·哈维新闻与评论”就像轻快的广播诗歌一样传达当天的新闻，带有一些民间幽默或一些保守观点。
But his show The Rest of the Story is what I want to talk about today.
但我今天要讲的就是他的节目《故事的其余部分》。
Typical episode, just jumps into the action.
典型的情节，只是跳入行动。
Now is the winter of Ted's discontent.
现在是特德不满的冬天。
You can see the frustration, even the anger in his face and in his gait as he stalked down Madison Avenue that blustery morning.
那个狂风大作的早晨，当他沿着麦迪逊大道大步走时，你可以从他的脸上和步态中看到沮丧，甚至愤怒。
He had thought himself, hoped himself a book author, a poet.
他曾以为自己、希望自己是一名作家、一名诗人。
But the great publishers of New York, New York had repeatedly demonstrated the error of his ways.
但纽约的伟大出版商却一再证明了他的做法是错误的。
I have to say, listening to Paul Harvey makes me feel like I need to go back to radio school.
我不得不说，听保罗·哈维的歌让我觉得我需要回到广播学校。
He just has this incredibly musical sense of timing, of when to pause, when to take the pitch of his voice up and down, which he would do like a singer climbing up and down the scales.
他对时机有着令人难以置信的音乐感，什么时候暂停，什么时候上下提高声音的音调，他就像歌手在音阶上上下移动一样。
Listen to the way he performs the next few sentences as just one long sentence, including dialogue.
听听他如何将接下来的几句话当作一个长句来表演，包括对话。
A volume of verse?
诗集？
Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Verse was not selling these days.
哦，不，不，不，不，不。这些天 Verse 不畅销。
Anyhow, Ted's particular volume was simply too different from others in its category.
不管怎样，特德的这本书与同类中的其他书实在是太不同了。
And worse still, it was too fantastic.
更糟糕的是，这太梦幻了。
Who sounds like that?
听起来像谁？
Paul Harvey Sorry, they had said.
保罗·哈维 对不起，他们说过。
27 times.
27次。
27 respected publishing houses had perused Ted's imagined masterpiece and rejected it, and not all of them politely.
27 家受人尊敬的出版社仔细阅读了特德的想象杰作，但都拒绝了它，而且并非所有出版社都礼貌地拒绝了它。
Ted learned his lesson.
特德吸取了教训。
He decided he's going to go home and had a plan for his manuscript.
他决定回家并为他的手稿制定了计划。
And he was going to vent his aggravation by burning that document, a bonfire of the inanities.
他打算通过焚烧这份文件来发泄他的愤怒，就像一场愚蠢的篝火。
Nice tip of the hat there to the title of a Tom Wolfe novel, or possibly to 15th-century church history.
这是对汤姆·沃尔夫小说标题的致敬，也可能是对 15 世纪教堂历史的致敬。
Then Ted runs into a guy he knew from school, Mike McClintock, there in Madison Avenue.
然后特德在麦迪逊大道遇到了他在学校认识的一个人迈克·麦克林托克。
And Mike invites him up to his office.
迈克邀请他到他的办公室。
Well, Mike's new office, the establishment by which he had been hired only three hours earlier, was Vanguard Press, a publisher, and more significant, a publisher Ted had somehow overlooked.
好吧，迈克的新办公室是先锋出版社，一家出版商，而更重要的是，泰德不知何故忽视了一家出版商，三小时前他才被聘用。
And you have guessed the rest.
剩下的你已经猜到了。
Ted did get published.
特德确实出版了。
And he got famous.
他出名了。
And later, he would marvel, "If I'd been going down the other side of Madison Avenue that morning, I'd be in the dry cleaning business instead."
后来，他惊叹道：“如果那天早上我沿着麦迪逊大道的另一边走，我就会从事干洗行业。”
For once upon a grotesque disappointment in the winter of 1937, following an intolerable 27 turndowns by the high priests of the publishing industry of New York, there was a little volume on the verge of incineration entitled And To Think That I Saw It on Mulberry Street.
1937 年冬天，在纽约出版业的大祭司们 27 次令人难以忍受的拒绝之后，出现了一次荒唐的失望，有一本题为《想想我在桑树街看到的》的小书濒临焚毁。
And that was followed by Horton Hatches the Egg.
接下来是霍顿孵化蛋。
And that was followed by How the Grinch Stole Christmas.
接下来是圣诞怪杰如何偷走圣诞节。
Then came The Cat in the Hat, and Green Eggs and Ham, and The Lorax.
然后是戴帽子的猫、绿鸡蛋和火腿以及洛拉克斯。
Of course, you know their creator as Ted Geisel.
当然，您知道他们的创造者是特德·盖塞尔 (Ted Geisel)。
You know him by his pen name, Dr. Seuss.
你知道他的笔名是苏斯博士。
Only now you know the rest of the story.
现在你才知道故事的其余部分。
Lots of episodes of The Rest of the Story are like this one, about somebody who fails at something for a long time, and then there's a lucky break, and everything changes.
《故事的其余部分》的很多情节都与这一集类似，讲述的是一个人在某件事上长期失败，然后幸运地突破，一切都改变了。
So for example, there's this skinny, shy, lonely kid who gets beat up till a fireman teaches him to stand and fight.
举个例子，有一个瘦弱、害羞、孤独的孩子，他被殴打，直到消防员教他站立和战斗。
And they became--
他们变成了——
The two-fisted, ultimately tough screen legend you knew as John Wayne.
约翰·韦恩（John Wayne）是一位双拳、终极强硬的银幕传奇人物。
There's the 14-year-old boy who writes to Franklin Delano Roosevelt asking for $10, who turns out to be--
有一个 14 岁的男孩写信给富兰克林·德拉诺·罗斯福索要 10 美元，结果他是——
Fidel Castro.
菲德尔·卡斯特罗。
Fidel Castro!
菲德尔·卡斯特罗！
Ira Glass Fidel Castro is actually unusual.
艾拉·格拉斯·菲德尔·卡斯特罗实际上很不寻常。
Most of the rest of the story episodes are about white guys.
故事的其余大部分情节都是关于白人的。
We sent away for this MP3 archive of 663 episodes.
我们发送了这个包含 663 集的 MP3 存档。
34 were women.
34 名是女性。
Sometimes Paul Harvey would go historical, like when he tells the story of a practice that was banned in England and colonial America because it led to disorder in the streets, unruly mobs spilling into churches, profanity.
有时保罗·哈维会讲述历史，比如当他讲述一种在英国和殖民地美国被禁止的做法的故事时，因为它导致街道混乱、不守规矩的暴徒涌入教堂、脏话。
But people would not stop doing this thing.
但人们不会停止做这件事。
It went underground and continues to this day.
它转入地下并持续至今。
Americans simply could not, still cannot kick the habit of it, of observing Christmas.
美国人根本无法、仍然无法戒掉庆祝圣诞节的习惯。
I went back and listened to a bunch of these in preparing this week's show.
在准备本周的节目时，我回去听了很多这些内容。
And I've wondered if you could tell the story of The Rest of the Story in the style of The Rest of the Story.
我想知道你是否可以用《故事的其余部分》的风格来讲述《故事的其余部分》的故事。
OK, here's my best shot at that.
好的，这是我最好的尝试。
Mr. Aurandt was 28 years old-- a concert pianist, doing great, performed with orchestras all over the world.
奥兰特先生今年 28 岁，是一名音乐会钢琴家，表现出色，曾与世界各地的管弦乐团合作演出。
But then he decided to make a change, something that would be less nerve-racking than waking up to perform.
但后来他决定做出改变，这比起床表演更省心。
His new gig?
他的新演出？
Writing radio scripts, five a week, for somebody else to read.
每周编写五个广播剧本，供其他人阅读。
They made thousands this way together.
他们就这样一起赚了几千。
The guy on the radio got all the credit.
广播里的那个人得到了所有的功劳。
People thought of it as his show.
人们认为这是他的表演。
The person who got all the credit was Paul Harvey.
获得全部功劳的是保罗·哈维。
Mr. Aurandt was in the background.
奥兰特先生在后台。
And who was Mr. Aurandt?
奥兰特先生是谁？
Well, I should tell you his full name-- Paul Aurandt, Jr.
好吧，我应该告诉你他的全名——小保罗·奥兰特 (Paul Aurandt, Jr.)。
His father?
他的父亲？
Well, some people once knew him as Paul Aurandt, but you know him by a different name-- Paul Harvey.
嗯，有些人曾经知道他叫保罗·奥兰特，但你知道他有一个不同的名字——保罗·哈维。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Every episode of the rest of the story was written for Paul Harvey by his own son.
故事其余部分的每一集都是保罗·哈维自己的儿子为他写的。
And now you know the rest of the story.
现在你知道故事的其余部分了。
What's so enjoyable about these stories is they just put you into this world where it seems like, OK, everything is going one way, and then there's a twist at the end that changes everything.
这些故事的有趣之处在于，它们只是把你带入这个世界，看起来，好吧，一切都在朝着一个方向发展，然后最后的一个转折改变了一切。
It all looks different.
一切看起来都不一样了。
And here at our show this week, we thought, we wanna do that.
在本周的展会上，我们想，我们想这么做。
That seems fun.
看起来很有趣。
So today, we have three real-life stories where things are going along one path, and then things turn, and the meaning of everything changes.
所以今天，我们要讲三个现实生活中的故事，事情沿着一条道路发展，然后事情发生转变，一切的意义都发生了变化。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act one, "Burning Down the Couch." OK, so at any point in the last four decades if you've felt depressed or anxious, or for any other reason you decided to see a psychiatrist, there's a Rest of the Story story behind the treatment they offer.
第一幕“烧毁沙发”。好吧，在过去四十年的任何时候，如果您感到沮丧或焦虑，或者出于任何其他原因决定去看精神科医生，他们提供的治疗背后都有一个故事的其余部分。
It's the story of a man named Ray Osheroff.
这是一个名叫雷·奥谢罗夫的人的故事。
He was a psychiatry patient in 1979 whose case was part of turning the entire field of psychiatry into what it is today.
1979 年，他是一名精神病学患者，他的病例是整个精神病学领域变成今天的样子的一部分。
He became famous, or maybe I should say notorious, among psychiatrists.
他在精神科医生中变得出名，或者我应该说是臭名昭著。
Ray died over a decade ago, but one of our producers, Chris Benderev, has been digging into what happened.
雷十多年前去世了，但我们的制片人之一克里斯·本德列夫一直在深入调查发生的事情。
Here he is.
他在这里。
Let's begin with how a lot of psychiatrists would tell you the story of Ray Osheroff.
让我们从许多精神科医生如何向您讲述雷·奥谢洛夫的故事开始。
It starts in the mid-1970s when life was good for Ray.
事情要从 20 世纪 70 年代中期开始，当时 Ray 的生活还算不错。
He was a doctor, a kidney doctor, with a successful pair of dialysis clinics in the DC area.
他是一名医生，一名肾脏医生，在华盛顿地区拥有两家成功的透析诊所。
He lived in a gorgeous house in a swanky part of northern Virginia with his new wife.
他和他的新婚妻子住在弗吉尼亚州北部一个时髦地区的一栋华丽的房子里。
They had a baby on the way.
他们在路上生下了一个孩子。
But then he descended into what we'd call today a mental health crisis.
但随后他陷入了我们今天所说的心理健康危机。
What set this off were two decisions Ray made.
引发这一切的是雷做出的两个决定。
First, Ray sold off his ownership stake in his clinics.
首先，雷卖掉了他在诊所的所有权股份。
He'd continue to be the top doctor there, but he didn't want the stress of running them anymore.
他将继续担任那里的顶级医生，但他不想再承受管理他们的压力。
And second, Ray had an ex-wife.
其次，雷有一位前妻。
And this ex-wife asked him if she could take their two boys to Europe for a year.
这位前妻问他是否可以带他们的两个儿子去欧洲一年。
Her new husband's job was sending him there.
她的新丈夫的工作把他送到那里。
And Ray said OK.
雷说好的。
But Ray came to regret both decisions, felt he'd thrown away his business and felt he'd abandoned his two boys.
但雷对这两个决定感到后悔，觉得自己抛弃了自己的生意，抛弃了两个儿子。
He spiraled into a deep depression.
他陷入了深深的沮丧之中。
He becomes increasingly repetitive almost.
他几乎变得越来越重复。
It was like he was stuck in these thought loops.
他就像陷入了这些思维循环之中。
This is Rachel Aviv.
这是雷切尔·阿维夫。
She's a staff writer for The New Yorker.
她是《纽约客》的特约撰稿人。
There's a chapter in her latest book about Ray.
她的最新书中有一章是关于雷的。
And he couldn't stop replaying all of his missteps.
他无法停止重演他所有的失误。
And that led him to a state of feeling suicidal, and his wife felt like he needed to be hospitalized.
这导致他有自杀倾向，他的妻子觉得他需要住院治疗。
Ray picked one of the most esteemed psychiatric hospitals in the country, Chestnut Lodge in Rockville, Maryland.
雷选择了全国最受尊敬的精神病医院之一，马里兰州罗克维尔的切斯特纳特洛奇医院。
Ray didn't know much about the Lodge.
雷对旅馆了解不多。
But he'd heard of it because it'd became famous as the basis of a best-selling novel called I Never Promised You a Rose Garden.
但他听说过它，是因为它作为畅销小说《我从未答应过你一座玫瑰园》的基础而闻名。
The book uses different names for the main character and the location, but it basically tells the story of the author's own experience as a patient at Chestnut Lodge.
这本书对主角和地点使用了不同的名字，但基本上讲述了作者自己作为栗子小屋病人的经历的故事。
It was about this young girl.
是关于这个年轻女孩的。
And essentially, over the course of a year the most famous analyst there brings her from a state of psychosis to being almost entirely recovered.
本质上，在一年的时间里，那里最著名的分析师让她从精神病状态几乎完全康复。
The Lodge believed you could fix even serious issues by taking time to really talk them out and dissect them.
洛奇相信，只要花时间真正讨论并剖析它们，就可以解决甚至严重的问题。
Like you need to address whatever is causing your anguish.
就像你需要解决导致你痛苦的任何事情一样。
And through the patient listening of the analyst, you'll finally understand what is causing your illness.
通过分析师的耐心倾听，您最终会了解导致您患病的原因。
It's kind of a beautiful idea.
这是一个美丽的主意。
It's like you take this respite to understand yourself.
就好像你利用这个休息时间来了解自己。
Yeah, it felt like such a humane approach to mental illness and the spirit of optimism.
是的，这感觉就像是一种对待精神疾病的人道方法和乐观精神。
And on January 2, 1979, Ray is driven to Chestnut Lodge.
1979 年 1 月 2 日，雷被驱车前往栗树小屋。
This is Eric Caplan, a historian of psychiatry who's writing a book about Ray.
我是埃里克·卡普兰，一位精神病学历史学家，正在写一本关于雷的书。
Eric says Ray checked himself into the Lodge expecting to be there two, maybe three months at the most.
埃里克说，雷入住旅馆时预计最多待两到三个月。
But winter turned to spring, and Ray was still inside.
但冬去春来，雷仍然在里面。
Eric spoke with a friend of Ray's who went to visit him around that time.
埃里克与雷的一位朋友进行了交谈，他当时去看望了他。
He told me Ray was this incredibly well-groomed person who only used to wear bespoke suits.
他告诉我雷是一个非常衣着得体的人，以前只穿定制的西装。
And here he goes to see his friend, and he arrives, and he can't believe his eyes.
他去见他的朋友，当他到达时，他简直不敢相信自己的眼睛。
Ray's hair is down to his shoulders.
雷的头发垂到肩膀。
He's bedraggled.
他浑身脏兮兮的。
He's lost now 40 to 45 pounds.
他现在减重了 40 到 45 磅。
So none of his clothes fit.
所以他的衣服都不合身。
He can no longer use a fork and knife.
他不能再使用刀叉了。
His fine motor skills had deteriorated, so he would eat with his hands.
他的精细运动技能已经退化，所以他只能用手吃饭。
Eating with his hands?
用手吃饭吗？
Eric Caplan Was eating with his hands.
埃里克·卡普兰正在用手吃饭。
Ray had lost his dexterity and so much weight because he was in a constant state of agitation, couldn't stop pacing around the ward, ruminating about his failures as a father and a businessman.
雷失去了灵活性和体重，因为他一直处于焦躁状态，无法停止在病房里踱步，反思自己作为父亲和商人的失败。
He would pace up to 10 hours a day, eight to 10 hours a day.
他每天最多工作10个小时，每天8到10个小时。
So his feet became blistered and infected to the point that he needed now regular treatment from a podiatrist.
因此，他的脚起水泡并受到感染，现在需要足病医生的定期治疗。
Clearly, whatever they were doing at this premier psychiatric hospital was not working for Ray.
显然，他们在这家顶级精神病医院所做的一切对雷来说都不起作用。
And Chestnut Lodge's failure here is what this story is about, how professionals should treat mental illness.
而栗子小屋在这里的失败正是这个故事所要讲述的，专业人士应该如何治疗精神疾病。
The Lodge believed fervently in old-fashioned psychoanalysis.
洛奇热衷于老式的精神分析。
They were fans of Sigmund Freud.
他们是西格蒙德·弗洛伊德的粉丝。
When a patient arrived, they'd take an extremely detailed history.
当病人到达时，他们会记录非常详细的病史。
They interviewed Ray's mother extensively, learned about his tumultuous childhood, how his father mostly wasn't around, and how when he was he'd explode at Ray and belittle him mercilessly.
他们广泛采访了雷的母亲，了解了他动荡的童年，他的父亲大多不在身边，以及当他在的时候他如何对雷大发雷霆并无情地贬低他。
The Lodge believed so strongly in classical psychoanalysis that it usually wouldn't pair it with psychiatric medications.
洛奇对经典精神分析坚信不疑，因此通常不会将其与精神科药物搭配使用。
Whether a patient had depression or schizophrenia, the Lodge used drugs sparingly.
无论患者患有抑郁症还是精神分裂症，该旅馆都很少使用药物。
So when Ray asked for antidepressants, which by 1979 would have been common in a psychiatric hospital--
因此，当雷要求提供抗抑郁药时（到 1979 年，这种药在精神病院里已经很常见了）——
They explained to him, no, we're not going to give you any drugs.
他们向他解释说，不，我们不会给你任何毒品。
And the direct quote that he's told by the ward administrator, a guy named Wesley Dingman, was, "You're going to need every neuron you have to fight this disease."
病房管理员韦斯利·丁曼 (Wesley Dingman) 直接告诉他的话是：“你需要每一个神经元来对抗这种疾病。”
And so the Lodge continued with its treatment-- lots of psychoanalysis, no antidepressants.
于是旅馆继续进行治疗——大量的精神分析，没有抗抑郁药物。
And Ray continued to unravel.
雷继续解开谜团。
Sometimes he'd hit himself.
有时他会打自己。
Other times, he'd pick fights with the other patients.
其他时候，他会和其他病人打架。
And of course, he kept pacing.
当然，他一直在踱步。
The Lodge did get Ray to calm down somewhat when they threatened to strap him down in ice-cold bed sheets for hours, something they were known to do with unruly patients.
当他们威胁要把雷绑在冰冷的床单上几个小时时，旅馆确实让雷平静了一些，众所周知，他们对不守规矩的病人就是这么做的。
In the Lodge's own internal notes, Ray's doctor admitted that Ray's symptoms weren't improving.
在旅馆自己的内部记录中，雷的医生承认雷的症状没有改善。
But no matter.
但没关系。
Their approach would be slow and steady.
他们的接近会缓慢而稳定。
At one meeting, Ray's doctor said, quote, "If he does stay in treatment for five or 10 years, he may get a good result out of it." Another doctor said maybe Ray could switch to being an outpatient after three years.
在一次会议上，雷的医生说，“如果他坚持治疗五年或十年，他可能会得到很好的结果。”另一位医生表示，也许雷可以在三年后转为门诊医生。
As best I can tell, the Lodge did not inform Ray about this timeline.
据我所知，分会并没有告知雷这个时间表。
Again, here's Rachel Aviv.
雷切尔·阿维夫再次报道。
I think that is the assumption that's so insulting, that it's OK to just take a decade out of your life to be a patient who learns to understand yourself better.
我认为这种假设非常侮辱人，认为花上十年的时间来成为一个学会更好地了解自己的病人是可以的。
Ray's mother, who was horrified at her son's deterioration inside the lodge, eventually checked Ray out and transferred him to a treatment center in Connecticut.
雷的母亲对儿子在小屋内的病情恶化感到震惊，最终检查了雷并将他转移到康涅狄格州的治疗中心。
There, he was finally prescribed antidepressants and other psychiatric medications.
在那里，他最终被开了抗抑郁药和其他精神科药物。
Once that happened, Ray's pacing lessened and eventually stopped altogether.
一旦发生这种情况，雷的步伐就放慢了，最终完全停止了。
By his 10th day, his depression and numbness began to lift.
到了第十天，他的抑郁和麻木开始消失。
Here's an archival recording of Ray.
这是雷的档案录音。
I think the first change I noticed in myself was that I could experience the feeling of sadness.
我想我注意到自己的第一个变化是我可以体验到悲伤的感觉。
What I had experienced before was different from sadness.
我以前所经历的与悲伤不同。
And so one day when I woke up, I thought about, my God, I haven't seen my kids, oh, in a year, and then I started to weep.
所以有一天，当我醒来时，我想到，天哪，我已经一年没见到我的孩子了，然后我开始哭泣。
That is the first time I recall crying during that period of time.
那是我记得那段时间第一次哭。
There's a Jane Kenyon poem that describes when you take antidepressants, you suddenly feel like you've been forgiven for a crime that you realize you didn't commit.
简·凯尼恩（Jane Kenyon）有一首诗描述了当你服用抗抑郁药时，你会突然觉得自己犯下的罪行已被宽恕，但你意识到自己没有犯下这一罪行。
I think it is such a profound moment where all of these obsessive thoughts suddenly don't feel necessary anymore.
我认为这是一个如此深刻的时刻，所有这些强迫性的想法突然感觉不再有必要了。
There's just space in your brain.
你的大脑里只有空间。
And that seems to be what happened for him.
这似乎就是他身上发生的事情。
Within three months, Ray was back to his old self-- well groomed, cracking jokes.
三个月之内，雷又恢复了原来的样子——打扮得漂漂亮亮，爱开玩笑。
He went home to Virginia.
他回到弗吉尼亚的家。
But it had been almost a year, and a lot had changed.
但已经快一年了，很多事情都发生了变化。
For one thing, Ray's ex-wife had gone to court to change their custody agreement.
一方面，雷的前妻告上法庭，要求更改监护权协议。
And because Ray was locked up at the Lodge, he'd lost his visitation rights with his kids.
由于雷被关在小屋里，他失去了与孩子们的探视权。
Meanwhile, Ray's new wife, who'd already moved out with the baby, was now divorcing him.
与此同时，雷的新婚妻子已经带着孩子搬出去了，现在要和他离婚。
And finally, when Ray returned to the dialysis practice that he'd helped build, the doctor he'd left in charge decided to open a competing office in the same building.
最后，当雷回到他帮助建立的透析诊所时，他留下负责的医生决定在同一栋大楼内开设一个竞争办公室。
He felt like he had lost everything.
他感觉自己失去了一切。
He lost his children.
他失去了孩子。
He lost his wife.
他失去了妻子。
His house was empty because his wife had taken all the furniture.
他的房子空了，因为他的妻子拿走了所有的家具。
His patients followed this doctor to the new business, so he didn't have enough patients to fill a day of work.
他的病人跟着这位医生去了新的业务，所以他没有足够的病人来填补一天的工作。
And now he knows because he went to two very different psychiatric hospitals that like, oh, maybe I could have just been gone for less than two months.
现在他知道了，因为他去了两家截然不同的精神病院，就像，哦，也许我可以离开不到两个月。
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
And for him, that was infuriating.
对他来说，这令人愤怒。
And this is the part of the story that Ray's known for because he leapt into action to get back what he'd lost, like Uma Thurman in Kill Bill or Liam Neeson in Taken, if those revenge movies had taken place in Virginia and Maryland civil court proceedings.
这就是雷闻名的故事部分，因为他立即采取行动，夺回自己失去的东西，就像《杀死比尔》中的乌玛·瑟曼或《飓风营救》中的连姆·尼森一样，如果这些复仇电影发生在弗吉尼亚州和马里兰州的民事法庭诉讼中。
First, Ray petitioned to get back his visitation rights with his kids and got them.
首先，雷请求收回他和孩子们的探视权，并得到了他们。
Then he sued his former colleague for undermining the business and won.
然后他起诉他的前同事破坏业务并获胜。
And finally--
最后——
This is the health claims arbitration case of Raphael J.
这是 Raphael J. 的健康索赔仲裁案。
Osheroff v.
奥谢洛夫诉。
Chestnut Lodge et al.
栗子旅馆等。
He sued Chestnut Lodge for malpractice.
他以渎职罪起诉栗树旅馆。
Ray's legal team argued that the Lodge had harmed him professionally and personally by withholding antidepressants and instead trying to break him down during countless therapy sessions.
雷的法律团队辩称，该旅馆拒绝提供抗抑郁药物，而是在无数次的治疗过程中试图让他崩溃，这对他的职业和个人都造成了伤害。
Here's one of Ray's lawyers describing how unusually harsh the Lodge doctors were.
雷的一位律师描述了洛奇医生的严厉程度。
The therapy, you'll hear, was confrontative.
你会听到，这种疗法是对抗性的。
And I'm quoting now.
我现在引用。
I'm not making this up.
这不是我编造的。
"Cut the shit, Ray.
“少说废话，雷。
You're symbolically dead.
你象征性地死了。
You'll disappear off the face of the earth.
你将从地球表面消失。
No one else wants to hear from you.
没有人想听到你的消息。
The only person who feels guilty about what happened to you is your mother.
唯一对发生在你身上的事情感到内疚的人是你的母亲。
The rest of the world could care less.
世界其他地方可能不太关心。
Take a tin cup and go beg on Connecticut Avenue if things are so bad for you."
如果情况对你来说太糟糕的话，拿一个锡杯去康涅狄格大街乞讨。”
Chestnut Lodge defended itself by saying they believed Ray's depression was secondary to deeper underlying issues which they had to fix first.
Chestnut Lodge 为自己辩护说，他们认为雷的抑郁症是他们必须首先解决的更深层次的根本问题的次要因素。
The lawsuit dragged on for years.
这场官司拖了好几年。
And as one professor put it, Ray's case was, quote, "discussed in every academic department of psychiatry in North America." Because on one side you had doctors like the ones at Chestnut Lodge.
正如一位教授所说，雷的案例“在北美精神病学的每个学术部门都进行了讨论”。因为一方面有像栗子旅馆那样的医生。
And on the other side, rooting for Ray, were a lot of psychiatrists who felt places like the Lodge had made their profession look reckless and out of touch, who worried their fellow doctors had basically forgotten the M in MD.
另一方面，许多支持雷的精神科医生认为像洛奇这样的地方让他们的职业看起来鲁莽和脱节，他们担心他们的医生同事基本上已经忘记了MD中的M。
And in 1987, Chestnut Lodge settled and paid Ray an undisclosed amount of money.
1987 年，Chestnut Lodge 达成和解并向 Ray 支付了一笔金额不详的款项。
He later said it was around $350,000, nearly a million dollars in today's money.
他后来说，这笔钱大约是 35 万美元，相当于今天的近 100 万美元。
In essence, Ray won.
从本质上讲，雷赢了。
Afterwards, psychiatrists everywhere were put on notice.
随后，各地的精神科医生都收到了通知。
Now, if they didn't at least offer medication when the evidence showed it could help, they might get sued too.
现在，如果他们在证据显示药物有帮助时至少不提供药物，他们也可能会被起诉。
Ray's case is not the only reason that when you walk into a psychiatrist's office today you are far more likely to be offered pills than a Rorschach test, but it contributed to that shift.
今天，当你走进精神科医生的办公室时，你更有可能接受药物治疗，而不是进行罗夏墨迹测试，雷的案例并不是唯一的原因，但它促成了这种转变。
In the late '80s and early '90s, Ray's case was written about in big academic journals.
八十年代末九十年代初，雷的案例被各大学术期刊报道。
He spoke at psychiatry's biggest annual conference.
他在精神病学最大的年度会议上发表了讲话。
The Philadelphia Inquirer and The New York Times wrote about the case.
《费城问询报》和《纽约时报》对此案进行了报道。
Then in 1989, The Washington Post wrote a long feature about Chestnut Lodge and Ray.
1989 年，《华盛顿邮报》写了一篇关于切斯特纳特·洛奇和雷的长篇专题报道。
It ended by saying he'd found love again and reestablished relationships with his three sons.
最后说他再次找到了爱情，并与三个儿子重建了关系。
The reporter wrote that Ray, quote, "feels lucky that he's been able to work his way back to normalcy." And Ray basically became lore.
记者写道，雷“很幸运，他能够通过自己的努力恢复正常。”而雷基本上就成了绝杀。
The way that I confronted the story, like in textbooks-- I had read an obituary of him in 2012, was he won this case.
我面对这个故事的方式，就像教科书上一样——我在2012年读过他的讣告，是他赢了这个官司。
It represented the triumph of biological psychiatry.
它代表了生物精神病学的胜利。
We can no longer deprive people of medications they need.
我们不能再剥夺人们所需的药物。
And he lived happily ever after.
并且他从此过上了幸福的生活。
And that's pretty much where the story ends.
故事到此就结束了。
But that's just not what happened.
但事实并非如此。
The truth is it was not happily ever after.
事实是，从此以后并不幸福。
The simple story that the meds made him better, it wasn't that simple.
药物让他好转这个简单的故事，其实没那么简单。
Here's the rest of the story.
这是故事的其余部分。
By the time Ray died in 2012, in terms of family at least, Ray was largely alone.
2012 年 Ray 去世时，至少就家庭而言，Ray 基本上是孤独一人。
He'd been divorced four times, and he'd been estranged from all three of his children.
他已经离婚四次，并且与三个孩子都疏远了。
So what happened?
那么发生了什么？
What went wrong?
出了什么问题？
Obviously, I couldn't ask Ray directly.
显然，我不能直接问雷。
But in a memoir he later wrote, he made it pretty clear who he thought was responsible-- Chestnut Lodge.
但在他后来写的回忆录中，他非常清楚地表明了他认为责任人是谁——切斯特纳特洛奇(Chestnut Lodge)。
Quote, "By destroying every facet of my personhood, they deprived me forever of love and any possible measure of security and satisfaction that I could ever gain thereafter.
引用：“通过摧毁我人格的各个方面，他们永远剥夺了我的爱以及我此后可以获得的任何可能的安全感和满足感。
They amputated my past, deprived me of a future."
他们斩断了我的过去，剥夺了我的未来。”
In that memoir, which was never published, Ray writes that he'd had an idyllic relationship with his sons.
在那本从未出版的回忆录中，雷写道，他与儿子们有着田园诗般的关系。
They'd bond during car rides.
他们会在乘车时建立联系。
He'd give them baths and gently tuck them into bed at night.
他会给他们洗澡，晚上轻轻地把他们塞进床上。
Then came the move to Europe, his depression, and, most importantly, Chestnut Lodge.
然后搬到了欧洲，他陷入了抑郁症，最重要的是，栗子旅馆。
After all that, he wrote, it was too late to salvage a relationship.
他写道，经历这一切之后，想要挽救一段关系已经太晚了。
The thing is, Ray's kids don't see it that way.
问题是，雷的孩子们不这么看。
Here's Sam Osheroff, Ray's oldest son.
这是萨姆·奥谢洛夫，雷的大儿子。
So I think there are two truths.
所以我认为有两个事实。
I think he was maltreated at Chestnut Lodge.
我认为他在栗子旅馆受到了虐待。
I think he should have sued.
我认为他应该起诉。
I think what happened to him was a tragedy.
我认为发生在他身上的事情是一场悲剧。
Yeah.
是的。
And he did lose things to that.
他确实因此失去了一些东西。
But I would say that even if my father had never gone through that acute depression and went into Chestnut Lodge, he still would have been in the same position at the end of his life.
但我想说，即使我父亲从未经历过那种严重的抑郁症并进入栗子旅馆，他在生命的尽头仍然会处于同样的境地。
Sam says his dad wound up cut off from so much of the family because of problems with his behavior that predate his time at Chestnut Lodge and his spiral into depression, and even his kids moving to Europe.
萨姆说，他的父亲最终与家人断绝了联系，因为他在切斯特纳特旅馆之前就存在行为问题，并陷入了抑郁症，甚至他的孩子搬到了欧洲。
They were there from as early as Sam can remember.
从萨姆记事起，他们就在那里。
As a child, you don't know what that means to be mentally ill, but you can certainly sense it, yeah.
作为一个孩子，你不知道精神病意味着什么，但你肯定能感觉到，是的。
And it pervaded everything.
它遍及一切。
What do you mean by that, pervaded everything?
你说的渗透到一切是什么意思？
I think every interaction with him, every overnight visit, it was off.
我认为与他的每一次互动，每一次过夜的拜访，都是失败的。
Everything was off.
一切都停止了。
Things were weird and tense.
事情变得奇怪而紧张。
And yeah, I don't remember ever a moment of relaxation with him.
是的，我不记得和他在一起有过任何放松的时刻。
I think he carried around an enormous and unrelenting amount of rage with him at all times.
我认为他始终怀着巨大而无情的愤怒。
Was it scary?
可怕吗？
Like did you did you worry about him focusing it on you?
就像你担心他把注意力集中在你身上吗？
Yeah.
是的。
I never worried about him-- OK, here's an incident.
我从不担心他——好吧，这是一个事件。
I remember once we were spending the night at his house.
我记得有一次我们在他家过夜。
And I had a friend spending the night.
我有一个朋友过夜。
And as you do when you're eight, you stay up, and you laugh, and you read comic books.
就像你八岁的时候一样，你熬夜、大笑、看漫画书。
And he came in and started screaming at us to go to bed.
他进来并开始尖叫着让我们去睡觉。
And he opened the door and slammed it, and then opened it and slammed it, and opened it and slammed it.
他打开门，关上门，然后打开门，关上门，再打开门，关上门。
He must have done it 25 times.
他一定已经做过25次了。
So that's the kind of rage.
这就是那种愤怒。
And yeah, that's, you know.
是的，就是这样，你知道。
I wouldn't say it was directed at me.
我不会说这是针对我的。
I was the unlucky recipient for being in the wrong place at the wrong time and doing something innocuous that happened to set it off at that moment.
我是那个不幸的接收者，因为我在错误的时间出现在错误的地点，做了一些无伤大雅的事情，却恰巧在那一刻引发了它。
Sam and others say that Ray was always quick to anger and just aggressive.
萨姆和其他人说，雷总是很容易生气，而且很有攻击性。
Sam's stepdad told me that Ray once threatened to have him killed by a hit man, said Ray told him he'd figured out exactly how much the job would cost.
山姆的继父告诉我，雷曾经威胁要让一名杀手杀死他，并说雷告诉他，他已经算出了这份工作的确切成本。
And the thing is, even after Ray got out of Chestnut Lodge, got on meds, won his visitation rights back, and became semi-famous for his miracle cure, his sons say that he kept doing the same kinds of disturbing things that he'd done before he'd been hospitalized.
事实是，即使雷离开了栗子旅馆，接受了药物治疗，重新赢得了探视权，并因奇迹般的治疗而小有名气，但他的儿子们说，他仍然继续做与入院前相同的令人不安的事情。
Like this one time in 1987, Ray was trying to rebuild his relationship with Sam and his younger brother Joe.
就像 1987 年的这一次，雷试图重建与山姆和弟弟乔的关系。
The boys had developed an interest in theater, so Ray took them to a show at the Kennedy Center in DC.
男孩们对戏剧产生了兴趣，所以雷带他们去看了华盛顿肯尼迪中心的一场演出。
Joe says his dad was sometimes really generous in that way.
乔说他的父亲有时在这方面非常慷慨。
But then during the show, Ray's beeper started going off over and over.
但在演出期间，雷的蜂鸣器开始一遍又一遍地响。
Remember, he's a doctor.
请记住，他是一名医生。
Multiple times, Ray got up, shuffled down the aisle, and took the calls.
雷多次站起来，拖着脚步走过过道，接听电话。
Here's Joe.
这是乔。
This thing was so loud, this beeper.
这东西声音太大了，这个蜂鸣器。
It would reverberate off the walls.
它会在墙壁上产生回响。
So at the end of the show, we're in a sea of audience members trying to leave the theater.
所以在演出结束时，我们身处一大群试图离开剧院的观众之中。
And someone said, hey, next time, leave your beeper at home.
有人说，嘿，下次，把你的传呼机留在家里。
And he said, lady, I hope your mother gets sick as shit someday and nobody comes to take care of her.
他说，女士，我希望有一天你妈妈病得很厉害，没有人来照顾她。
And he didn't just say it under his breath.
而且他不只是低声说出来。
He was screaming it at her.
他对着她尖叫。
What do you and Sam do during a moment like that?
在这样的时刻你和萨姆会做什么？
Oh, we walked 50 feet ahead of him all the way to the parking lot.
哦，我们在他前面 50 英尺处一直走到停车场。
Huh.
呵呵。
Joe Osheroff Even as I talk about it now, I get butterflies in my stomach.
乔·奥谢洛夫 即使我现在谈论这件事，我心里还是忐忑不安。
For his sons, Ray was still just as uncomfortable to live with as he had been before the Chestnut Lodge saga.
对于他的儿子们来说，雷和他一起生活仍然和栗子小屋传奇发生之前一样不舒服。
They did notice one thing had changed about their dad though.
不过，他们确实注意到他们的父亲发生了一件事情。
He began talking often about how because of what he'd gone through at the Lodge, he was on his way to becoming a household name.
他开始经常谈论由于他在旅馆的经历，他如何成为家喻户晓的人物。
He would hint.
他会暗示。
He'd say, this incredible thing happened to me.
他会说，这不可思议的事情发生在我身上。
You wouldn't believe it.
你不会相信的。
I'm writing a book.
我正在写一本书。
It's going to be a movie.
这将是一部电影。
I've talked to these producers.
我已经和这些制作人谈过了。
It's going to be the biggest movie of the year.
这将成为今年最大的电影。
Ray gave Sam and Joe the latest draft of his memoir.
雷向山姆和乔提供了他的回忆录的最新草稿。
As time went on, their relationship with their dad became more strained.
随着时间的推移，他们和父亲的关系变得更加紧张。
And they say Ray started directing more of his anger at them.
他们说雷开始将更多的愤怒发泄在他们身上。
For Sam, this all came to a head a bit after he'd graduated from college.
对于山姆来说，这一切在他大学毕业后就达到了紧要关头。
He actually stood up in the middle of a restaurant and began screaming at me.
他实际上站在一家餐厅中间，开始对我尖叫。
And at that point, I walked out of the restaurant.
就在那时，我走出了餐厅。
And I had no idea where I was.
我不知道自己在哪里。
I don't think I had more than $5 on me at the time.
我想我当时身上的钱不超过5美元。
And eventually found my way to some relative's house, spent the night there.
最终我找到了一个亲戚的家，在那里过夜。
The next morning, rented a car, drove home, and I did not see him again for many, many years.
第二天早上，租了一辆车，开车回家，我已经很多很多年没有再见到他了。
Joe cut off contact with Ray around the same time.
乔大约在同一时间切断了与雷的联系。
Joe and Sam say Ray's third son, who they haven't heard from in 30 years, cut off contact with their dad even earlier.
乔和萨姆说，雷的第三个儿子已经 30 年没有音讯，更早就与父亲断绝了联系。
I reached out to him, but did not hear back.
我向他伸出手，但没有听到回复。
These parts of Ray's personality that persisted after getting out of Chestnut Lodge and getting on meds, they actually came up in the lawsuit because the Lodge had a theory to explain them.
雷的这些性格部分在离开栗子旅馆并接受药物治疗后仍然存在，它们实际上出现在诉讼中，因为旅馆有一个理论可以解释它们。
Can you explain what is meant in psychiatry as the narcissistic personality?
您能解释一下精神病学中的自恋人格是什么意思吗？
Features will include grandiosity, absorption with self, shallow, brittle relationships with other human beings, and very--
特征包括浮夸、专注于自我、与其他人的关系浅薄、脆弱，以及非常——
This is Ray's former doctor at the Lodge, Manuel Ross.
这是雷在旅馆的前医生曼努埃尔·罗斯。
Those features would define a narcissistic personality disorder.
这些特征将定义自恋型人格障碍。
Did you arrive at an opinion as to whether that was involved with Dr. Osheroff?
对于这是否与奥谢罗夫博士有关，您有意见吗？
Yes, I thought there was no doubt about it.
是的，我认为这是毫无疑问的。
Now, I should say over a dozen psychiatrists were deposed for the lawsuit.
现在，我应该说，十多名精神科医生因这起诉讼而被免职。
And there was disagreement over whether Ray would have met the clinical criteria for narcissistic personality disorder when he was at the Lodge.
对于雷在旅馆时是否符合自恋型人格障碍的临床标准，存在分歧。
Some said no. Some weren't sure.
有人说不。有些人不确定。
Some thought he had some kind of personality disorder.
有些人认为他有某种人格障碍。
Some said the depression made it hard to tell.
有人说，抑郁症让人很难说清楚。
But some, like Dr. Ross, were sure.
但有些人，比如罗斯博士，对此深信不疑。
I felt that the narcissistic personality disorder had been an enduring feature of his life that had dogged him, that led to repeated difficulties with people in his life and essentially compromised his ability to lead a successful and rewarding existence.
我觉得自恋型人格障碍是他生活中一个持久的特征，一直困扰着他，导致他与生活中的人一再发生困难，从根本上损害了他过上成功和有意义的生活的能力。
Was Dr. Ross' diagnosis correct?
罗斯医生的诊断正确吗？
I've tried to answer that question definitively, and I'm still not sure.
我试图明确地回答这个问题，但我仍然不确定。
But for whatever it's worth, I did read Ray's memoir, and here's what I can say.
但无论它的价值如何，我确实读过雷的回忆录，这就是我能说的。
It does not read like a memoir.
它读起来不像一本回忆录。
It reads like a disorganized, 500-page screed against a lot of the people he worked and lived with.
这本书读起来就像一篇杂乱无章的、长达 500 页的长篇大论，针对的是与他一起工作和生活的许多人。
He retraces his downfall over and over, each time with new conspirators working against him.
他一次又一次地回顾自己的垮台，每次都会有新的阴谋者与他作对。
And the tone is grandiose.
而且语气很宏大。
Ray writes unironically that he'd been a, quote, "king on a very shaky throne," whose success had drawn a host of predators.
雷讽刺地写道，他曾是一位“王位摇摇欲坠的国王”，他的成功吸引了许多掠夺者。
He'd been duped by, in his words, "vengeful wives" who'd introduced "avowed enemies" and "Trojan horses" into his dialysis practice in order to destroy it.
用他的话说，他被“复仇的妻子”欺骗了，她们将“公开的敌人”和“特洛伊木马”引入他的透析实践中，以摧毁它。
Ray also rails against the lawyer who won him his settlement money against Chestnut Lodge because Ray felt he deserved millions more.
雷还抱怨为他赢得切斯特纳特洛奇案和解金的律师，因为雷觉得他应该得到数百万美元的赔偿。
In the book, Ray's greatest ire is saved for Chestnut Lodge though, who subjected him to a, quote, "one-man holocaust."
在书中，雷最大的愤怒是切斯特纳特·洛奇（Chestnut Lodge），他让他遭受了“单人大屠杀”。
In 2010, Ray reached out to Sam on Facebook after years apart.
2010 年，雷在 Facebook 上联系了时隔多年的山姆。
He wanted to meet up.
他想见面。
Sam's first child had just been born.
萨姆的第一个孩子刚刚出生。
And I thought, well, this will be interesting.
我想，好吧，这会很有趣。
Maybe this will be a chance to introduce him to his granddaughter and perhaps we'll find some sort of way to move forward here.
也许这将是一个把他介绍给他的孙女的机会，也许我们会找到某种方式在这里继续前进。
So we decided to meet in a town about 45 minutes away.
所以我们决定在距离酒店约 45 分钟路程的一个小镇见面。
And I remember it was a restaurant, and we were outdoors.
我记得那是一家餐馆，我们在户外。
So we must have been outside at a picnic table.
所以我们一定是在外面的野餐桌旁。
Sam says his dad looked older and seemed gentler.
萨姆说他的父亲看起来更老，而且看起来更温和。
He didn't raise his voice at all.
他根本没有提高声音。
But once they got their food--
但一旦他们拿到食物——
It was like no time had passed.
就好像时间没有过去一样。
He picked up exactly where he left off.
他从上次停下的地方继续说道。
He was, again, obsessed with the Chestnut Lodge thing, obsessed with his book.
他再次沉迷于栗子旅馆的事情，沉迷于他的书。
And that's all he really wanted to talk about.
这就是他真正想谈论的。
He didn't really ask questions about my life, didn't really ask about his new granddaughter, just launched right back into the same old stuff as if we hadn't missed a decade together.
他并没有真正询问我的生活，也没有真正询问他的新孙女，只是又回到了同样的旧事物，就好像我们没有错过一起度过的十年一样。
And when he see-- I mean, this is his granddaughter.
当他看到——我的意思是，这是他的孙女。
How does he react when he sees her?
当他看到她时，他有什么反应？
Well, I think he was happy to meet her, and he cooed over her a bit, but then pretty much directly afterwards went straight back into his spiel.
嗯，我想他很高兴见到她，并对她咕咕了一会儿，但之后几乎就直接回到了他的长篇大论中。
You won't believe this.
你不会相信这一点。
You have to read the new version of it.
你必须阅读它的新版本。
It's going to be a movie.
这将是一部电影。
And I know the rest of the however many hours we spent together was spent with him talking about himself and his Chestnut Lodge experience, and his book.
我知道我们在一起度过的其余时间都是和他一起谈论他自己和他的栗子旅馆经历以及他的书。
And this is, what, 30, 35 years after the fact.
而这已经是 30、35 年后的事了。
I mean, you told me he handed you a copy of his manuscript of his book when you were a teenager, and he's basically doing the same thing again.
我的意思是，你告诉我，当你十几岁的时候，他给了你一份他的书的手稿，而他基本上又在做同样的事情。
He brought another copy and gave me another copy.
他又带来了一份，也给了我另一份。
Yep.
是的。
Chris Benderev And it sounds like you did go in hoping maybe it'd be different.
Chris Benderev 听起来你确实希望事情会有所不同。
Yeah.
是的。
I mean, I think you always have that hope with a living parent until you can't anymore, that there can be some sort of way to salvage some part of a relationship.
我的意思是，我认为你总是对活着的父母抱有这样的希望，直到你不再能，可以有某种方式来挽救一段关系的某些部分。
So it was pretty disappointing.
所以这非常令人失望。
I want to clarify that not everyone experienced Ray this way.
我想澄清的是，并不是每个人都经历过雷这样的经历。
For instance, a couple long-time friends of Ray's told me that he was definitely not a narcissist devoid of empathy.
例如，雷的几个老朋友告诉我，他绝对不是一个缺乏同理心的自恋者。
For one thing, as a doctor he cared deeply about his patients, sometimes helped pay their rent or fund funerals.
一方面，作为一名医生，他非常关心病人，有时帮助他们支付房租或资助葬礼。
And one of Ray's friends told me he was a good listener, someone that she could vent to for an hour uninterrupted.
雷的一位朋友告诉我，他是一个很好的倾听者，她可以不间断地向他倾诉一小时。
This friend believed Ray had other kinds of mental disorders though and admitted that he could get, quote, "obsessional," especially about the Chestnut Lodge ordeal, which colored the rest of his life.
这位朋友相信雷患有其他类型的精神障碍，并承认他可能会“着迷”，尤其是对栗树小屋的磨难，这给他的余生带来了色彩。
He was a great friend, she said, but probably somebody who was very difficult to live with.
她说，他是一个很好的朋友，但可能是一个很难相处的人。
Whatever ailed him, Ray did seem to know that there was something wrong with him.
不管他有什么毛病，雷似乎确实知道他出了什么问题。
All his life, he kept receiving psychotherapy and various medications.
他一生都在接受心理治疗和各种药物治疗。
He even did electroshock therapy.
他甚至还进行了电击疗法。
But it never seemed to help with his closest relationships.
但这似乎对他最亲密的关系没有帮助。
I put all this to Rachel Aviv.
我把这一切都交给了雷切尔·阿维夫。
Reading about Ray and learning about Ray, he does make me think of certain people I know.
阅读有关雷的故事并了解雷，他确实让我想起了我认识的某些人。
And I think maybe we all know people like this who are just difficult.
我想也许我们都认识这样的人，他们只是很难相处。
And it's just like they can't seem to change.
而且他们似乎无法改变。
And I don't know.
我不知道。
I find myself interested in that because I don't know what they're supposed to do or what we're supposed to do if they're kind of truly unchangeable.
我发现自己对此很感兴趣，因为我不知道他们应该做什么，或者如果他们确实无法改变的话我们应该做什么。
Yeah, I think everyone knows someone a little bit like him.
是的，我想每个人都认识一个有点像他的人。
And I think the really hard thing is that there isn't actually a good cure for that.
我认为真正困难的是实际上没有很好的治疗方法。
Right.
正确的。
There isn't a pill that we give for that.
我们没有为此提供药物。
No. And that feels like a challenge to the project of psychiatry, that there are people who have personality problems, but that are not that receptive to treatment.
不。这感觉像是对精神病学项目的挑战，有些人有人格问题，但不太愿意接受治疗。
If Ray did have a personality disorder, it's worth noting that they are, as the American Psychological Association put it, notoriously hard to treat.
如果雷确实患有人格障碍，那么值得注意的是，正如美国心理学协会所说，这种人格障碍是出了名的难以治疗。
It's funny.
很有趣。
The story that Ray's best known for is a hopeful one.
雷最著名的故事是一个充满希望的故事。
The moral is meds can help us.
道德是药物可以帮助我们。
Psychiatry can help us.
精神病学可以帮助我们。
But when you look at the whole arc of Ray's life and see what his family saw, and how he ended up, that story falls apart.
但当你回顾雷的整个人生，看看他的家人所看到的以及他的结局时，这个故事就崩溃了。
Yes, meds can help.
是的，药物可以提供帮助。
But if anything, Ray's life shows the limits of what psychiatry can do for us, how some of us have problems that psychiatry still has a hard time defining and an even harder time trying to fix.
但如果说有什么不同的话，雷的生活表明了精神病学能为我们做的事情的局限性，以及我们中的一些人如何面临精神病学仍然难以定义、更难以解决的问题。
Chris Benderev is a producer on our show.
克里斯·本德列夫 (Chris Benderev) 是我们节目的制片人。
Rachel Aviv's book that features a chapter on Ray is called Strangers to Ourselves.
雷切尔·阿维夫（Rachel Aviv）的书《我们自己的陌生人》（Strangers to Ourselves）中有一章是关于雷的。
Eric Caplan is looking for a publisher for his book about Ray's case.
埃里克·卡普兰正在为他有关雷案件的书寻找出版商。
It's called Do No Harm.
这就是所谓的“不伤害”。
Coming up, you get to a certain age with your parents and what could they ever do to surprise you?
接下来，你和父母一起到了一定的年龄，他们会做什么让你感到惊讶呢？
What cards could they still hold up their sleeve?
他们还能袖手旁观什么牌？
One man finds out in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
当我们的节目继续进行时，一名男子在一分钟内从芝加哥公共广播电台得知。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's show, "The Rest of the Story." I loved Paul Harvey's old radio show, which had that name, and we are shamelessly knocking it off today.
今天的节目是“故事的其余部分”。我喜欢保罗·哈维（Paul Harvey）的旧广播节目，它就是这个名字，而我们今天无耻地把它取消了。
We have stories where things seem to be all heading one way, meaning one thing, and then there's a twist.
我们有一些故事，事情似乎都朝着一个方向发展，意味着一件事，然后出现了转折。
We have arrived at act two of our program.
我们已经进入了计划的第二幕。
Act two, "Oh, Mother, Where Art Thou?" Samuel James has actually lived through a rest of the story kind of experience in his own life.
第二幕“哦，妈妈，你在哪里？”塞缪尔·詹姆斯实际上在他自己的生活中经历了故事的其余部分。
Here he is.
他在这里。
My mother died three times, each more surprising than the last.
我的母亲死了三次，每次都比上一次更令人惊讶。
The first time she died, I was 12 years old.
她第一次去世时我12岁。
No one wants to tell a child their mother is dead, let alone how it happened.
没有人愿意告诉孩子他们的母亲已经去世，更不用说这是怎么发生的了。
I was also in foster homes at the time, and I was told about her death in the shortest, most emotionally convenient way possible for them.
当时我也在寄养家庭里，我以对他们来说最短、最情感上最方便的方式得知了她的死讯。
"Your mother took prescription pills," they said.
“你母亲服用处方药，”他们说。
"It says on the bottle not to take pills with alcohol, but she did."
“瓶子上写着不要与酒精一起服药，但她却这么做了。”
And so I decided to never drink alcohol.
所以我决定永远不喝酒。
It's an easy decision for a 12-year-old, and somehow it never got any more difficult.
对于一个 12 岁的孩子来说，这是一个简单的决定，而且不知何故，它从未变得如此困难。
Peer pressure only made me dig in harder.
同侪压力只会让我更加努力。
My parents had been together for more than 20 years when my mother died.
当我母亲去世时，我的父母已经在一起20多年了。
Mourning was especially difficult for my father.
哀悼对我父亲来说尤其困难。
But time healed as many wounds as it could.
但时间治愈了尽可能多的伤口。
Surviving became managing became thriving.
生存变成了管理，变成了繁荣。
He developed a relationship with her memory.
他与她的记忆建立了联系。
And anyone who came to the house would have to join in because he'd put the brass urn containing my mother's ashes on top of the entertainment center right above the TV, like a shrine.
任何来到我家的人都必须加入，因为他把装有我母亲骨灰的黄铜瓮放在电视正上方的娱乐中心顶部，就像一个神龛。
Sometimes there was incense beside it.
有时旁边还有香。
Sometimes the urn was in a blue velvet bag.
有时骨灰盒装在蓝色天鹅绒袋中。
Sometimes it was just there by itself.
有时它就独自存在。
One day-- I was an adult at this point-- my father and I were watching TV together.
有一天，我已经成年了，我和父亲一起看电视。
My eyes drifted up to my mother's urn, and I started thinking back to being told how she died.
我的目光飘向母亲的骨灰盒，我开始回想起被告知她是怎么死的。
I learned years earlier that the pills she'd taken with alcohol were for bipolar disorder.
几年前，我了解到她与酒精一起服用的药片是治疗双相情感障碍的。
As an adult, I've seen what that can be like.
作为一个成年人，我已经看到了那会是什么样子。
And so as we were sitting there, I just started thinking out loud.
所以当我们坐在那里时，我开始大声思考。
"You know," I said, "I always thought there was a chance that Mom took her own life." "What?" my father replied, confused.
“你知道，”我说，“我一直认为妈妈有可能结束自己的生命。” “什么？”我父亲困惑地回答道。
"I don't know," I said.
“我不知道，”我说。
"I've known some people over the years who also suffer with bipolar disorder.
“多年来我认识一些也患有双相情感障碍的人。
I thought there was a chance."
我以为有机会。”
My father asked, "Wait.
父亲问道：“等等。
What the hell are you talking about?" "I just thought there was a chance she committed suicide.
你到底在说什么？” “我只是觉得她有可能自杀。
We don't have to talk about it.
我们不必谈论它。
I'm not trying to start a fight." My father, more confused than ever and more than a little annoyed, "Of course she committed suicide!"
我并不是想挑起一场争斗。”我父亲比以往更加困惑，也更加恼火，“她当然是自杀了！”
She had died from taking pills with alcohol, like my caseworker told me at the time, leaving out one very important part.
正如我的个案工作者当时告诉我的那样，她是因服用含酒精的药物而死亡的，但遗漏了一个非常重要的部分。
It's not as though my father and I never talked about my mother.
我和父亲并不是从来没有谈论过我的母亲。
We talked about her all the time, just never about the circumstances of her death.
我们一直在谈论她，但从未谈论过她的死亡情况。
We'd both avoided the topic out of respect for each other, similarly and mistakenly thinking we had a common understanding.
出于对彼此的尊重，我们都回避了这个话题，同样错误地认为我们有共同的理解。
This was the second time my mother died.
这是我母亲第二次去世。
We talked for a long time, both incredulous.
我们聊了很长时间，两人都难以置信。
The light and funny mood of our usual conversations came and went, going through the details, wondering how we'd both missed this for decades.
我们平常谈话时轻松有趣的气氛来来去去，仔细地讨论细节，想知道我们几十年来怎么都错过了这一点。
To me, his life as a widower was suddenly so much heavier than I'd realized.
对我来说，他作为鳏夫的生活突然比我想象的要沉重得多。
He was suddenly so much stronger than I'd realized.
他突然变得比我想象的要坚强得多。
And I became aware of a war inside my mother that I'd never realized.
我开始意识到母亲内心有一场我从未意识到的战争。
Learning how your parent died decades later, you feel like you're supposed to do something with that, but you don't know what.
几十年后得知你的父母是如何去世的，你觉得你应该为此做点什么，但你不知道做什么。
There's a remourning, and certain memories begin to look very different.
有一种哀悼，某些记忆开始变得非常不同。
The main reason I'm a musician is because of my parents' love of music, my mother especially.
我成为一名音乐家的主要原因是因为我的父母对音乐的热爱，尤其是我的母亲。
She was a trained dancer from a young age, and so I was taking dance lessons at age five.
她从小就是一名训练有素的舞者，所以我五岁时就开始学习舞蹈。
Dance parties would spring up in the house all the time, and I loved joining the old people doing the old dances, even though they sometimes came with unnecessary tutorials.
家里总是举办舞会，我喜欢和老人一起跳古老的舞蹈，尽管他们有时会带来不必要的教程。
I remember a long lecture once on the difference between the Twist and the Peppermint Twist.
我记得有一次关于麻花和薄荷麻花之间区别的长篇演讲。
Dancing in the house was normalized to the point that I've had dance parties throughout my life even now.
在家里跳舞已经成为常态，甚至现在我一生都在举办舞会。
But what I didn't see at the time was how manic my mother's dance parties were.
但当时我没有看到的是我母亲的舞会有多么狂热。
I didn't notice that sometimes they lasted so long my parents weren't able to do that day's errands.
我没有注意到有时它们会持续很长时间，以至于我的父母无法完成当天的任务。
Sometimes the dance parties happened instead of important appointments.
有时，舞会取代了重要的约会。
I never noticed how tired all of this made my father.
我从来没有注意到这一切让我父亲有多累。
I did notice that the dance parties didn't happen when she got sad.
我确实注意到，当她伤心时，舞会就不会举行。
But not everything shifted.
但并非一切都发生了变化。
Some memories didn't change at all.
有些记忆根本没有改变。
By the time I was five years old, I asked my mother for a drum kit, and she says yes.
当我五岁的时候，我向妈妈要一套架子鼓，她答应了。
And a few months go by, and I ask her if she wants to hear me play Gene Krupa's legendary drum solo from "Sing, Sing, Sing." And she says yes.
几个月过去了，我问她是否想听我演奏吉恩·克鲁帕（Gene Krupa）的《唱，唱，唱》中的传奇鼓独奏。她说是的。
I started playing music at five, but I'm not a prodigy by any means.
我五岁就开始演奏音乐，但无论如何我都算不上神童。
I'm a regular five-year-old kid thrashing around on the drums, and I can't keep a beat.
我是一个普通的五岁孩子，敲着鼓，却跟不上节奏。
And so I finished playing this solo terribly.
我就这样以糟糕的方式完成了这首独奏。
And she applauds.
她鼓掌。
And I ask if she wants to hear it again.
我问她是否想再听一次。
And she says yes.
她说是的。
So I play it again.
所以我又玩了一次。
I was too tired to try a third time, but if I had asked she would have said yes again.
我太累了，无法再尝试第三次，但如果我问她，她会再次答应。
She would have said yes all day.
她一整天都会说“是”。
There's no mania in that, just love.
其中没有狂热，只有爱。
My father's will stated his wish to be cremated.
我父亲的遗嘱表明了他希望被火葬的愿望。
He wanted his ashes buried at the veterans' cemetery about an hour from my home, and he wanted my mother's ashes to be mixed in with his.
他希望自己的骨灰埋在距我家大约一小时路程的退伍军人墓地，他希望我母亲的骨灰与他的骨灰混合在一起。
I had him cremated, but I stopped his wishes there.
我把他火化了，但我阻止了他的愿望。
Putting his ashes that far from me felt like throwing him away, so I kept him at my apartment.
将他的骨灰放在离我那么远的地方就像把他扔掉一样，所以我把他留在了我的公寓里。
But shortly after my father died, I spoke to his friend, Fred, who I've never liked.
但在我父亲去世后不久，我和他的朋友弗雷德交谈，我从来不喜欢他。
He asked me about my father's ashes and when they might be at the cemetery.
他问我父亲的骨灰情况，以及骨灰什么时候会到达墓地。
I had told them I was figuring that out, but all the figuring had been done.
我告诉他们我正在解决这个问题，但所有的计算都已经完成了。
My father was where he was going to stay.
我父亲就是他要住的地方。
But then came the guilt.
但随之而来的是愧疚。
It felt like my father was sending a passive-aggressive message from beyond the grave through Fred.
感觉就像我父亲正在通过弗雷德从坟墓之外发出被动攻击的信息。
And so I made a deal with my dead father.
所以我和我死去的父亲做了一笔交易。
I would mix my mother's ashes in with his if he would just make Fred leave me alone.
如果他能让弗雷德别打扰我，我会把我母亲的骨灰和他的骨灰混合在一起。
Back then, I was still going through my father's house.
那时，我还在经过我父亲的房子。
My mother's urn was right there on top of the entertainment center where it had always been.
我母亲的骨灰盒就在娱乐中心的顶部，原来的地方。
This time no incense, no blue velvet bag.
这次没有香，没有蓝丝绒包。
Now, if you're unfamiliar, metal urns are heavy.
现在，如果您不熟悉的话，金属瓮很重。
Their tops screw off, and the grinding sound of metal on metal is louder than you think it's going to be.
它们的顶部旋开，金属与金属之间的摩擦声比你想象的要大。
And it reverberates through your hands.
它会通过你的双手产生回响。
In the movies, the ashes are all loose inside.
电影里，骨灰全部散落在里面。
My mother's ashes had come in a plastic bag clamped together with a metal tag.
我母亲的骨灰装在一个用金属标签夹在一起的塑料袋里。
But after the sound of metal on metal echoed around me and the reverberations rattle my knuckles, I discovered my mother's urn contained no bag and no ashes.
但当金属碰撞的声音在我周围回响，余音使我的指关节嘎嘎作响后，我发现母亲的骨灰盒里没有袋子，也没有骨灰。
The urn was completely empty.
瓮已经完全空了。
I don't know if you've ever had ashes suddenly go missing, but it's impossible to search for them in a way that makes sense.
我不知道你是否经历过骨灰突然失踪的情况，但以一种有意义的方式寻找它们是不可能的。
At first, it felt a little like looking for my keys.
起初，感觉有点像在寻找我的钥匙。
I tried remembering where I saw them last.
我试着回忆最后一次见到他们的地方。
But they'd only ever been in the one place.
但他们只去过一个地方。
I remembered what a prankster my father had been, often for his own entertainment.
我记得我父亲是一个多么爱恶作剧的人，常常是为了自己的娱乐。
So I looked in all the drawers.
于是我翻遍了所有的抽屉。
I even looked in the fridge, places, honestly, I definitely would have seen a bag of ashes that had been there.
我什至看了冰箱里的地方，老实说，我肯定会看到那里有一袋骨灰。
Then the panic set in, and I was looking under the couch between the cushions.
然后恐慌开始了，我在沙发下面的垫子之间寻找。
Then it was coat pockets and any container I could find.
然后是外套口袋和我能找到的任何容器。
I was digging through the pantry because maybe there's another urn that accidentally got mixed in with the cans.
我在食品储藏室里翻找，因为也许还有一个瓮不小心和罐头混在一起了。
Maybe they fell into one of these shoes in the closet.
也许他们掉进了衣柜里的其中一只鞋子里。
Maybe one of the books on the shelf is hollowed out.
也许书架上的一本书被掏空了。
She had to be here somewhere.
她一定在这儿的某个地方。
I searched the house obsessively for weeks, but I never found her ashes.
我着迷地搜查了房子好几个星期，但我从未找到她的骨灰。
That's the third time my mother died.
这是我母亲第三次去世。
Years have gone by, and the truth is I never stopped looking really.
几年过去了，事实是我从未停止过寻找。
There's no urgency anymore, and it's been a long time since I panicked about it.
已经没有什么紧迫感了，我已经很久没有因为这件事而惊慌失措了。
But every so often, I'll reach all the way in the back of a drawer or feel around on top of a cabinet just in case.
但时不时地，我会把手伸到抽屉后面，或者在柜子顶部摸索，以防万一。
Samuel James in Portland, Maine.
塞缪尔·詹姆斯在缅因州波特兰。
Samuel is a musician and does these great performances where he tells stories and plays guitar.
塞缪尔是一位音乐家，他通过讲故事和弹吉他进行了精彩的表演。
And you can see those at therealsamueljames.com.
您可以在 realsamueljames.com 上看到这些内容。
He did most of the music for this story.
他为这个故事创作了大部分音乐。
By the way, if you or anybody you know is in crisis or needs help, the suicide and crisis lifeline is available all day and night.
顺便说一句，如果您或您认识的任何人处于危机或需要帮助，自杀和危机生命线全天候可用。
Just dial 988.
只需拨打 988 即可。
Again, that's 988.
再说一次，那是988。
Act three, "Righteous Gemstone." This next story starts with a move, an apartment search, and a mystery.
第三幕，“正义宝石”。下一个故事从一次搬家、一次公寓搜索和一个谜团开始。
Bim Adewunmi has the rest of the story.
Bim Adewunmi 讲述了故事的其余部分。
When she was 31, Jean got the opportunity to move to Berlin.
31 岁时，Jean 有机会搬到柏林。
In a way, she had been preparing for this since she was in middle school in upstate New York.
在某种程度上，她从纽约州北部上中学起就一直在为此做准备。
Back then, she'd made a choice.
那时，她就做出了选择。
You had a choice of three languages, Spanish was for the cool, fun kids, French was for the sophisticates, and German was for the intellectuals.
你可以选择三种语言，西班牙语适合酷、有趣的孩子，法语适合老练的人，德语适合知识分子。
And so obviously, I chose German.
很明显，我选择了德语。
That's how I envisioned myself at that age.
这就是我对那个年纪的自己的想象。
Many years later, she got to make use of that choice.
许多年后，她不得不利用这个选择。
She was living in London at the time, working as a copywriter and wanting to shake things up.
当时她住在伦敦，担任文案撰稿人，想要改变现状。
I knew Jean a little back then.
那时我对吉恩有一点了解。
We lived in different corners of London with mutual friends in common.
我们住在伦敦的不同角落，有共同的朋友。
And randomly, months after she moved to Berlin, so did I.
随机地，她搬到柏林几个月后，我也搬到了柏林。
I was there on a journalism fellowship for only a few months, and we only managed to hang out a couple of times.
我在那里只呆了几个月的新闻奖学金，我们只出去玩过几次。
One of those times was at her apartment.
其中一次是在她的公寓里。
And I remember thinking how amazing it was-- huge windows, solid wood floors, luxuriously large.
我记得我当时想那是多么令人惊奇——巨大的窗户，实木地板，豪华的大。
No one else I knew had an apartment like it.
我认识的人中没有人拥有这样的公寓。
I remember thinking to myself, oh, it's huge.
我记得我心里想，哦，它太大了。
Like, it's a cathedral of an apartment.
就像，这是一座公寓的大教堂。
It was a very good apartment under the circumstances.
在当时的情况下，这是一套非常好的公寓。
It was on Helmholtzplatz, which is a large square in Prenzlauer Berg, which is a sort of chichi kind of neighborhood-- beautiful, old building, kind of classic courtyard style.
它位于亥姆霍兹广场，这是普伦茨劳贝格的一个大广场，这是一种奇奇的社区——美丽的老建筑，一种经典的庭院风格。
And yeah, the apartment, it did feel enormous.
是的，公寓确实感觉很大。
The living room was huge.
客厅很大。
The bedroom was huge.
卧室很大。
I remember another friend came to visit from England.
我记得还有一位朋友从英国来拜访。
And I had maybe been there for about five months.
我可能在那里待了大约五个月。
And she said, Jean, when are you going to get more furniture?
她说，琼，你什么时候要买更多家具？
And I said, well, what more furniture do I need?
我说，好吧，我还需要什么家具？
I live here alone.
我一个人住在这里。
Before I go any further with the story, a little context.
在我进一步讲述这个故事之前，先介绍一下背景。
At the time that we were living in Berlin, it was almost comically hard to find an apartment, especially for foreigners like us.
当我们住在柏林时，找到一套公寓几乎是可笑的，特别是对于像我们这样的外国人来说。
I'd been lucky to find my apartment share in Kreuzberg, thanks to a friend and lucky timing.
感谢朋友和幸运的时机，我很幸运地在克罗伊茨贝格找到了我的公寓。
But Jean lived alone and had somehow found this unicorn of an apartment.
但吉恩独自一人生活，并以某种方式找到了这间公寓的独角兽。
And I always wondered, the way so many of us obsess over our friends' apartments, how did she land this?
我一直想知道，我们这么多人都对朋友的公寓着迷，她是怎么得到这个的？
The story of how she found her apartment started the usual way.
她如何找到公寓的故事以通常的方式开始。
She saw a listing online, and then went along at a set time on a specific day to view the apartment.
她在网上看到了一份房源信息，然后在特定日期的固定时间去看了公寓。
Also typical, she was there with about 30 other people, and all of them were her competition for the lease.
同样典型的是，她和其他大约 30 个人一起在那里，他们都是她争夺租约的竞争对手。
And then you have to fill out an application on the spot.
然后你必须当场填写一份申请表。
So I went to the realtor and said in my halting German, I'm really interested in this apartment.
于是我去找房地产经纪人，用结结巴巴的德语说，我对这套公寓真的很感兴趣。
I'd like to fill out an application.
我想填写一份申请表。
But I don't speak German very well, obviously.
但显然我德语说得不太好。
And so I'd like to take it away, and then I'll submit it.
所以我想把它拿走，然后再提交。
And he just looked at me and shook his head sort of disdainfully, I felt.
我感觉他只是看着我，轻蔑地摇了摇头。
This disdainful realtor, he tells Jean to write down her information.
这位轻蔑的房地产经纪人让吉恩写下她的信息。
And if by some miracle one of the many German-speaking and German-writing applicants doesn't get the apartment, he'll call her.
如果出现奇迹，众多讲德语和写德语的申请者中的一位没有得到这套公寓，他会给她打电话。
So she takes an application form and dutifully writes down her number and her name on his notepad.
于是她拿了一份申请表，尽职尽责地在他的记事本上写下了她的电话号码和名字。
And without a lot of hope, she walks away.
她没有抱太大希望就走开了。
And then this man chased me into the hallway.
然后这个男人把我追到了走廊。
And he said, Edelstein.
他说，埃德尔斯坦。
That's such a beautiful name, Edelstein.
埃德尔斯坦，这是一个多么美丽的名字。
It's so special.
太特别了。
Edelstein is her last name.
埃德尔斯坦是她的姓氏。
And as for why he was fixated on it, well, his next question cleared it up.
至于他为何如此着迷，好吧，他的下一个问题就解决了。
Where are you from?
你从哪来？
Where is your family from?
你的家人来自哪里？
Indeed.
的确。
That was when I knew what he wanted to know was, are you Jewish?
那时我就知道他想知道的是，你是犹太人吗？
Whether implicitly or explicitly asked, "are you Jewish?" has been historically a notably heavy question.
无论是含蓄还是明确地问，“你是犹太人吗？”历史上一直是一个特别沉重的问题。
For one thing, it's difficult to discern the intentions of the asker.
一方面，很难辨别提问者的意图。
How would you describe the tone of his voice when he said your name?
当他说出你的名字时，你会如何描述他的语气？
Like was it full of awe maybe?
也许它充满了敬畏？
Or what was it?
或者那是什么？
Yeah.
是的。
I think awe, excitement, a touch of delight.
我觉得敬畏、兴奋、一丝喜悦。
[LAUGHS] That's a pretty impressive mix of tones.
[笑]这是令人印象深刻的音调组合。
For the past several years before she'd moved to Berlin, Jean had been living in the UK.
在搬到柏林之前的几年里，琼一直住在英国。
And while living in London, she'd been the victim of overt anti-Semitic harassment, having slurs thrown at her in person on the street, but also the covert kind-- in her inbox in response to some of her writing.
在伦敦生活期间，她一直是公开反犹太主义骚扰的受害者，有人在街上当面对她进行诽谤，但也有隐蔽的——在她的收件箱里回应她的一些写作。
So naturally, she was always listening for vocal inflections.
很自然地，她总是在倾听声音的变化。
And I said, I think, danke, thank you-- very uncomfortable.
我说，我想，danke，谢谢你——非常不舒服。
And I know, or I felt, that question meant, are you Jewish?
我知道，或者我觉得，这个问题的意思是，你是犹太人吗？
And I didn't feel comfortable answering it because despite all of his enthusiasm, I wasn't sure what his intentions were or what his opinions were.
我不愿意回答这个问题，因为尽管他充满热情，但我不确定他的意图是什么或他的意见是什么。
Ultimately, when in 2012 a middle-aged German person asked me a question trying to find out if I was Jewish, I felt like what I wanted to ask him was, well, what did your family do during the war?
最终，2012 年，当一位德国中年人问我一个问题，试图查明我是否是犹太人时，我觉得我想问他的是，嗯，你的家人在战争期间做了什么？
Jean did not get that apartment.
吉恩没有得到那套公寓。
But the next day, Claudia, her friend who had helped her fill out the application, heard from the realtor.
但第二天，帮她填写申请表的朋友克劳迪娅接到了房地产经纪人的来信。
She said, Jean, the realtor called.
她说，琼，房地产经纪人打来电话。
And he said, Ms. Edelstein, she can't have that apartment, but I have a special apartment for the special Edelstein.
他说，埃德尔斯坦女士，她不能拥有那间公寓，但我有一个特别的公寓给特别的埃德尔斯坦。
The special Edelstein.
特别的埃德尔斯坦。
Jean Hannah Edelstein And Claudia was like, I guess you should find out what's going on.
Jean Hannah Edelstein 和 Claudia 说，我想你应该知道发生了什么事。
Because she had lived in Berlin for a long time.
因为她已经在柏林生活了很长时间。
She knew it was hard to get an apartment.
她知道买一套公寓很难。
Right.
正确的。
Jean Hannah Edelstein So basically, the realtor said that the apartment downstairs, which was identical to the one that I had seen, would be available.
Jean Hannah Edelstein 基本上，房地产经纪人说楼下的公寓与我看到的一模一样，将可供使用。
And he would not put it on the market, but hold it for me so that I could have that apartment.
他不会把它放在市场上，而是为我保留它，这样我就可以拥有那套公寓。
The whole process.
整个过程。
So there were not 39 people besides me in that apartment.
所以那间公寓里除了我之外就没有39个人了。
Wow.
哇。
I mean, that's pretty special treatment.
我的意思是，这是非常特殊的待遇。
It was very special.
这很特别。
Bim Adewunmi For a special lady with a special name.
Bim Adewunmi 献给一位有着特殊名字的特殊女士。
For a special Edelstein.
为特别的埃德尔斯坦。
Bim Adewunmi [LAUGHS]
Bim Adewunmi [笑]
And that was only the first time Fraulein Edelstein would get a little something extra for her troubles.
这只是埃德尔斯坦小姐第一次因为她的麻烦而得到一点额外的东西。
When it came time to open a bank account in order to get paid at her new job, she went in and spoke to a bank employee.
当她需要开设一个银行账户以便在新工作中获得报酬时，她走进去与一名银行员工交谈。
And she was just like, ugh.
她就像，呃。
This is going to be very difficult.
这将是非常困难的。
Maybe we can find time for your appointment.
也许我们可以找到时间与您预约。
And I was a little anxious because I needed the bank account to get paid.
我有点着急，因为我需要银行账户才能收到付款。
And she said, OK, well, write your name and phone number down, and we'll call you to make an appointment.
她说，好吧，写下你的名字和电话号码，我们会给你打电话预约。
So I did.
所以我做到了。
And then she went, oh, Edelstein.
然后她说，哦，埃德尔斯坦。
Oh, I'll do it myself.
哦，我自己来做吧。
She got an appointment for the next day.
她预约了第二天。
And the bank worker made a point to introduce Jean to the bank manager, who shook her hand solemnly, like she was a visiting dignitary or something.
银行工作人员特意将吉恩介绍给银行经理，银行经理郑重地与她握手，就像她是来访的贵宾或什么的。
But there was more.
但还有更多。
And then she said, oh, and let me get you something else.
然后她说，哦，让我给你买点别的东西吧。
And she gave me a mug, a bank-branded mug to take with me.
她给了我一个杯子，一个银行品牌的杯子让我随身携带。
And I went back to the office.
然后我就回到了办公室。
And I was like, hey, guys, I got my bank mug.
我当时想，嘿，伙计们，我得到了我的银行马克杯。
And everyone else said, I didn't get a mug.
其他人都说，我没有得到杯子。
This kept happening, and it led to some odd analogies.
这种情况不断发生，并导致了一些奇怪的类比。
So there's two things I would compare it to.
因此，我可以将其与两件事进行比较。
One is being a really hot person, which I am not.
一是成为一个非常热情的人，但我不是。
I'm a perfectly nice looking person, but I'm not someone where being good looking is my number one defining characteristic.
我是一个长得非常漂亮的人，但我并不是一个把长得好看作为我的第一特征的人。
And I have friends who maybe fall in that category.
我有一些朋友可能属于这一类。
I feel like we've all met them.
我感觉我们都见过他们。
And you know what it's like, where you go places with them and suddenly people are like, would you like a free drink?
你知道那是什么感觉，当你和他们一起去某个地方时，突然人们会问，你想喝一杯免费饮料吗？
Can I upgrade your hotel room?
我可以升级你们酒店的房间吗？
Would you like me to walk around and carry things for you?
您需要我为您走动并搬运东西吗？
That sort of thing.
诸如此类的事情。
The other thing she'd compare it to, being a B-list celebrity.
她将其与另一件事进行比较，那就是成为二流名人。
Getting a smoother experience at the immigration desk at the airport, a sudden discount on a couch-- all things that happened to Jean.
在机场的移民柜台获得更顺畅的体验，突然在沙发上享受折扣——所有这些都发生在吉恩身上。
This is so embarrassing.
这太尴尬了。
When I was shopping, if I use my debit card and I handed it to somebody in a store, I became used to them looking at it and saying, oh, Edelstein to the extent that I would just naturally pause and wait for this moment of recognition.
当我购物时，如果我使用借记卡并将其交给商店里的某人，我就会习惯于他们看着它并说，哦，埃德尔斯坦，以至于我会自然地停下来等待这一刻的认可。
So what was it about her name that unlocked this very specific door?
那么，她的名字是什么，开启了这扇特殊的门呢？
In direct translation, Edelstein means noble stone or precious stone, sometimes used as a synonym for diamond.
在直接翻译中，Edelstein 的意思是高贵的石头或宝石，有时用作钻石的同义词。
This made sense to Jean.
这对吉恩来说是有道理的。
Some of her ancestors had been jewelers.
她的一些祖先曾是珠宝商。
But none of that explained the innate delight it brought out in people.
但这些都无法解释它给人们带来的与生俱来的快乐。
There was just some ineffable cuteness her name held to the average German ear, she was told.
有人告诉她，她的名字对于普通德国人来说有一种难以形容的可爱感。
It was like being named Jean Adorable.
这就像被命名为“Jean Adorable”一样。
Like some people would giggle with joy when they saw her name.
就像有些人看到她的名字就会高兴地咯咯笑一样。
Did anybody give you anything that felt like a satisfactory answer for why your name held this hold over people?
有没有人给过你一个令人满意的答案，解释为什么你的名字对人们有如此大的影响力？
No, not really.
不，不是真的。
They would say, oh, it's very elegant.
他们会说，哦，这很优雅。
It's very sweet.
非常甜。
It's such a cute name.
这是一个多么可爱的名字啊。
It's very special.
这很特别。
Some people would say it's very old-fashioned.
有人会说，这太老套了。
And then I would say, is it because it's Jewish?
然后我会说，是因为它是犹太人吗？
And they'd say, yeah, that too.
他们会说，是的，也是这样。
But then they would return to the specific sweetness of the name.
但随后他们又会回到这个名字的特殊甜蜜之处。
Jean had this distinct feeling every time someone made a big deal out of her name, like they had been presented with an opportunity.
每当有人拿她的名字大肆渲染时，简都会有这种明显的感觉，就像他们得到了一个机会一样。
It made her remember a story her older brother, who'd also studied German at school, had told her about a thing he'd noticed while on exchange in Germany when he was 15.
这让她想起了她哥哥的一个故事，他也在学校学过德语，他告诉她他 15 岁时在德国交换时注意到的一件事。
Several adults seemed to make a point of mentioning their age to him.
几个成年人似乎特意向他提及自己的年龄。
Like they'd slip it into conversation in a way that seemed strange.
就好像他们会以一种看起来很奇怪的方式将其融入谈话中。
And while he didn't know for sure why, he had a theory.
虽然他不确定为什么，但他有一个理论。
They wanted him to know that they were too young.
他们想让他知道他们还太年轻。
The truth of that reality lingered in her mind as she would receive these upticks in customer service, reconciling the extreme pleasantness of these interactions with the uncomfortable possibility of why, never knowing how much of it was the cuteness of her name versus something darker.
当她收到客户服务的这些提升时，这个现实的真相一直萦绕在她的脑海里，她将这些互动的极度愉快与可能的令人不安的原因调和起来，永远不知道其中有多少是她名字的可爱与更黑暗的东西。
The larger story surrounding having this name, of course, is that there was a crime against humanity perpetrated against bearers of this name and other people with names like Jean's.
当然，围绕这个名字的更大的故事是，对这个名字的持有者和其他像吉恩这样的名字的人犯下了反人类罪。
Some of those people had lived in the very same neighborhood Jean was now living in.
其中一些人曾经住在吉恩现在居住的同一个社区。
Many Jewish people were taken from Prenzlauer Berg and killed.
许多犹太人从普伦茨劳贝格被带走并被杀害。
There's no nice way to say that.
没有什么好的方式可以这么说。
And so on the one hand, there was a sense of pride in reclaiming the space there, but it was uncomfortable.
因此，一方面，人们对夺回那里的空间有一种自豪感，但又感到不舒服。
And I didn't pursue the story of who was this man who was renting me the apartment?
我也没有追究这个租给我公寓的男人是谁？
Did he own the apartment?
这套公寓是他的吗？
Did his family own the building?
他的家人拥有这栋大楼吗？
How did the person who owned the building gain ownership of the building?
建筑物的所有者如何获得建筑物的所有权？
I did go to an office to sign a lease, and that person was not Jewish, so.
我确实去办公室签了租约，那个人不是犹太人，所以。
Yeah.
是的。
Jean Hannah Edelstein Yeah.
吉恩·汉娜·埃德尔斯坦 是的。
I felt some mild concern about why I had been given this apartment.
我对为什么会得到这套公寓感到有些担忧。
And the concern was that it felt slightly unfair, or what?
人们担心的是，这感觉有点不公平，还是什么？
That it was some kind of reparations that hadn't been discussed with me.
这是某种尚未与我讨论过的赔偿。
Did you ever think, I actually don't want to know why?
你有没有想过，我其实并不想知道为什么？
Like if I could know, I wouldn't want it to be confirmed.
就像如果我知道的话，我不会希望它被证实。
Yes.
是的。
Because I think then it would have made any of these interactions very painful.
因为我认为那样的话，任何这些互动都会变得非常痛苦。
Because if someone had said to me, I'm doing this because my grandparents did a horrible thing and it makes me feel better, I would have said, this has nothing to do with that.
因为如果有人对我说，我这样做是因为我的祖父母做了一件可怕的事情，这让我感觉好多了，我会说，这与那无关。
It's not better.
这并没有更好。
You're not fixing anything.
你没有修复任何东西。
So it could remain a sort of funny, slightly dark phenomenon as long as it wasn't interrogated.
因此，只要不受到审问，它就可能仍然是一种有趣的、略显黑暗的现象。
Jean returned to the US just over a year after moving to Berlin.
搬到柏林一年多后，吉恩回到了美国。
Back in Brooklyn, she went to a bookstore, where she was asked for her name to sign up to the mailing list.
回到布鲁克林，她去了一家书店，在那里她被要求提供姓名以注册到邮件列表。
And I said, Edelstein.
我说，埃德尔斯坦。
And they were just like, OK, and typed it out.
他们就像，好吧，然后把它打了出来。
What do you feel then?
那你有什么感觉？
Jean Hannah Edelstein Humbled.
吉恩·汉娜·埃德尔斯坦感到谦卑。
[LAUGHS] Jean Hannah Edelstein I felt so humbled.
[笑]Jean Hannah Edelstein 我感到非常谦卑。
Really?
真的吗？
Jean Hannah Edelstein Yeah.
吉恩·汉娜·埃德尔斯坦 是的。
Brooklyn is full of Steins, and Steins, and Steins even.
布鲁克林充满了斯坦因，斯坦因，甚至还有斯坦因。
It didn't make me special anymore.
它不再让我变得特别了。
Jean doesn't miss that old frisson that passed through her when she said her name in Berlin.
琼并没有怀念她在柏林说出自己的名字时那种古老的颤栗感。
She stopped pronouncing her name the German way, Edelstein, within weeks of returning home.
回家后几周内，她就不再用德国人的方式发音自己的名字“埃德尔斯坦”(Edelstein)。
The lack of reaction was her welcome home sign.
缺乏反应是她欢迎回家的标志。
And everybody knows the big reason why home is special is that nobody treats you like you're special.
每个人都知道家之所以特别的一个重要原因是没有人像你一样对待你。
Bim Adewunmi is a producer on our program.
Bim Adewunmi 是我们节目的制作人。
Jean Hannah Edelstein tells this story and others in her memoir.
吉恩·汉娜·埃德尔斯坦在她的回忆录中讲述了这个故事和其他故事。
It's called This Really Isn't About You.
它的名字叫《这真的不是关于你的》。
Our program was produced today by Ike Sriskandarajah.
今天我们的节目由 Ike Sriskandarajah 制作。
The people who put together today's program include James Bennett the Second, Phia Bennin, Jendayi Bonds, Sean Cole, Michael Comite, Bethel Habte, Kyla Jones, Tobin Low, Miki Meek, Stowe Nelson, Katherine Rae Mondo, Nadia Reiman, Ryan Rumery, Alix Spiegel, Frances Swanson, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, Julie Whitaker, and Diane Wu.
今天节目的制作人包括 James Bennett the Second、Phia Bennin、Jendayi Bonds、Sean Cole、Michael Comite、Bethel Habte、Kyla Jones、Tobin Low、Miki Meek、Stowe Nelson、Katherine Rae Mondo、Nadia Reiman、Ryan Rumery、Alix Spiegel、Frances Swanson、Christopher Swetala、Matt Tierney、Julie Whitaker 和 Diane Wu。
Our managing editor is Sarah Abdurrahman.
我们的总编辑是萨拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sarah Abdurrahman)。
Our senior editor is David Kestenbaum.
我们的高级编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。
Our executive editor is Emanuele Berry.
我们的执行编辑是 Emanuele Berry。
Special thanks to Eric Winkler, Brett Wean, Barbara Sangreto, Henry Kellerman, Jonathan Otto, Robert Greenspan, and Bob White at WYPR in Baltimore.
特别感谢巴尔的摩 WYPR 的 Eric Winkler、Brett Wean、Barbara Sangreto、Henry Kellerman、Jonathan Otto、Robert Greenspan 和 Bob White。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org, where you can stream our archive of over 800 episodes for absolutely free.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org，您可以在其中完全免费地观看我们的 800 多集档案。
Free, do you hear me?
免费，你听到了吗？
Also, you'll find new merch, including the colorful and wonderful Torey Malat-shirt.
此外，您还会发现新商品，包括色彩缤纷、精美的 Torey Malat 衬衫。
Again, thisamericanlife.org.
再说一次，thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
You know, theater casting is just amazing these days.
你知道，现在的戏剧选角真是太棒了。
And he got the role of Maria in West Side Story, the one who sings "I feel pretty, oh, so pretty." Torey has a great voice, but after a couple of rehearsals he told the director it wasn't for him.
他在《西区故事》中扮演了玛丽亚一角，她唱着“我感觉很漂亮，哦，太漂亮了”。托雷的声音很好，但排练几次后他告诉导演这不适合他。
I'm not someone where being good looking is my number one defining characteristic.
我不是一个以好看为第一特征的人。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Good day.
再会。
Only now you know the rest of the story.
现在你才知道故事的其余部分。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。