807: Eight Fights - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #807 | August 4, 2023 807: Eight Fights Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 807 集 | 2023 年 8 月 4 日 807：八场战斗 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
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如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass Back in the winter of 2022, in the days and weeks before Russia invaded Ukraine, there was one thing that most Ukrainians and most Russians had in common.
序言：序言 Ira Glass 回到 2022 年冬天，在俄罗斯入侵乌克兰之前的几天或几周内，大多数乌克兰人和大多数俄罗斯人有一个共同点。
They both insisted that war was impossible.
他们都坚持认为战争是不可能的。
War was unbelievable.
战争是令人难以置信的。
And one reason it was unbelievable is that many families, possibly most families on either side of the border, have family members in the other country.
令人难以置信的一个原因是，许多家庭，可能是边境两侧的大多数家庭，都有家人在另一个国家。
Many Russians have some Ukrainian roots.
许多俄罗斯人都有乌克兰血统。
Many Ukrainians have spent time living in Russia.
许多乌克兰人曾在俄罗斯生活过一段时间。
Even President Zelenskyy, like many Ukrainians, grew up speaking Russian.
就连泽连斯基总统也像许多乌克兰人一样，从小就讲俄语。
He had a career in Russia, starred in Russian movies, performed comedy for Russian audiences.
他在俄罗斯有过职业生涯，主演过俄罗斯电影，为俄罗斯观众表演过喜剧。
Even Putin's seen him perform-- called him a good actor years ago.
就连普京也看过他的表演——多年前就称他为好演员。
So when Russians did start the war, it wasn't just on the battlefield or in the airspace over Ukrainian cities.
因此，当俄罗斯人确实发动战争时，不仅仅是在战场上或在乌克兰城市上空。
It was within families.
这是在家庭内部。
This is something I had no idea about, the way a conflict like this might take the normal disagreements between people and blow them up.
这是我不知道的事情，像这样的冲突可能会把人们之间正常的分歧炸毁。
When you think about it, like, of course, right?
当你想到这一点时，就像，当然，对吧？
It was the writer Masha Gessen who explained this to me.
作家玛莎·格森向我解释了这一点。
Masha was born in Moscow, moved to the United States as a teenager with their family, then moved back to Russia as an adult to work as a journalist.
玛莎出生于莫斯科，十几岁时与家人移居美国，成年后搬回俄罗斯，担任记者。
They've written several books, now currently a staff writer at The New Yorker.
他们写了几本书，目前是《纽约客》的特约撰稿人。
And what Masha has put together today is a very unusual story where they try to capture what this is like by looking at one family and the fights they get into related to the war.
玛莎今天整理了一个非常不寻常的故事，他们试图通过观察一个家庭以及他们与战争有关的争斗来捕捉这种情况。
So what you're about to hear is one family and eight fights.
所以你将要听到的是一个家庭和八场战斗。
Here's Masha.
这是玛莎。
In normal times, we keep the peace in families by letting things go, by accommodating, by forgetting things or pretending not to notice things.
在正常情况下，我们通过放手、通融、忘记事情或假装没有注意到事情来保持家庭的和睦。
But when war starts, even the quietest, most conflict-avoidant people start fighting.
但当战争开始时，即使是最安静、最避免冲突的人也会开始战斗。
Just before the war began, on February 21, 2022, two people sat at a long dining table in a Moscow apartment.
2022 年 2 月 21 日，战争爆发前夕，莫斯科一间公寓里，两个人坐在一张长餐桌旁。
These are my friends Nadia and Karen.
这是我的朋友纳迪亚和凯伦。
They are at the center of this constellation of people I'm going to tell you about.
他们是我要向您介绍的这一群人的中心。
I've known Nadia the longest-- since she was a college student in Moscow about 25 years ago.
我认识 Nadia 的时间最长——大约 25 年前，她还是莫斯科的一名大学生。
She was tall, blonde, butch, very cool.
她身材高大，金发碧眼，肌肉发达，非常酷。
She still is.
她仍然是。
Soon after graduating, in 2003, she moved to Kyiv.
2003年毕业后不久，她搬到了基辅。
And there's Karen a gay man, a friend I've known through many relationships.
还有凯伦，一个同性恋者，我通过很多关系认识的朋友。
Twelve years ago, Karen and Nadia had a baby together.
十二年前，凯伦和纳迪亚生了一个孩子。
They lived in different countries, but it didn't seem like a big deal.
他们生活在不同的国家，但这似乎没什么大不了的。
Karen was in Moscow, Nadia in Ukraine, in Kyiv, so their son Luka was growing up in Kyiv but regularly visited his dad in Moscow.
凯伦在莫斯科，纳迪亚在乌克兰和基辅，所以他们的儿子卢卡在基辅长大，但经常去看望他在莫斯科的父亲。
And on this night, all three of them were in Karen's apartment in Moscow.
这天晚上，他们三个人都在凯伦位于莫斯科的公寓里。
Luka had gone to bed.
卢卡已经上床睡觉了。
The adults were watching a speech by Vladimir Putin.
大人们正在观看弗拉基米尔·普京的演讲。
Putin was declaring war.
普京正在宣战。
So Karen and Nadia had a fight.
于是凯伦和纳迪亚吵了一架。
Fight number one-- where does Luka go?
第一战——卢卡去哪儿了？
Even before Putin's speech, Nadia was ready.
甚至在普京讲话之前，纳迪亚就已经做好了准备。
She didn't think the war would happen, but she'd made a plan for Luka if war broke out-- a plan she hadn't told Karen about until now.
她不认为战争会发生，但如果战争爆发，她为卢卡制定了一个计划——直到现在她才告诉凯伦这个计划。
By that time, I already knew that we're not going back to Ukraine.
到那时，我已经知道我们不会再回乌克兰了。
We already had tickets to Berlin.
我们已经买好了去柏林的机票。
And who said what?
谁说了什么？
What was the argument?
争论的焦点是什么？
Well, before he was saying nothing is going to happen, and you're exaggerating, and things like this.
好吧，在他说不会发生任何事之前，你就夸大其词了，诸如此类的事情。
But then, he was like, OK, maybe something's is going to happen in Ukraine.
但后来，他想，好吧，也许乌克兰会发生一些事情。
But you definitely shouldn't, you know, take the kid away to some other country.
但你知道，你绝对不应该把孩子带到其他国家。
I was like, if there's going to be a war, it is safer to stay in Moscow--
我当时想，如果要发生战争，留在莫斯科会更安全——
This is Karen.
这是凯伦。
Karen --because nobody's going to attack Moscow.
凯伦——因为没有人会攻击莫斯科。
I live 10 minutes' walk from Kremlin.
我住的地方距离克里姆林宫步行 10 分钟。
[CHUCKLES] I can't imagine the war can come into town.
[轻笑]我无法想象战争会蔓延到城里。
He was saying, "no, I want him to stay in Moscow.
他说：“不，我希望他留在莫斯科。
It's the safest place in the world.
这是世界上最安全的地方。
I don't want him to go to Berlin." And we actually-- we didn't succeed too much in persuading him.
我不想让他去柏林。”事实上，我们并没有成功说服他。
And she didn't push too hard because that wasn't her way.
她并没有逼得太紧，因为那不是她的方式。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I just hate fighting.
我只是讨厌战斗。
I just hate when it gets ugly.
我只是讨厌它变得丑陋。
Whenever I even sense that this might be the situation, I would just go in the opposite direction.
每当我意识到可能出现这种情况时，我就会朝相反的方向走。
It would never actually get to far as to have a fight with someone.
它永远不会真正发展到与某人打架的地步。
And I think I'm so used to this.
我想我已经习惯了。
It has been for years like this.
这样的情况已经很多年了。
So we just said, "we're going to go there for two weeks."
所以我们只是说，“我们要去那里两周。”
We, as in Nadia, Luka, and Nadia's girlfriend, Sophie.
我们，就像纳迪亚、卢卡和纳迪亚的女朋友索菲一样。
And only on two weeks he agreed.
仅仅两周后他就同意了。
And everybody was like, yeah, two weeks.
每个人都说，是的，两周。
Of course.
当然。
Right.
正确的。
But then I called Sophie anyway, and I said, "Take everything, including the summer clothes."
但后来我还是给索菲打了电话，我说：“把所有东西都拿走，包括夏天的衣服。”
Now, Sophie flies to Berlin with as much stuff as she can carry on a plane.
现在，索菲带着她能带上飞机的尽可能多的东西飞往柏林。
Nadia and Luka meet her there.
纳迪亚和卢卡在那里遇见了她。
Am I understanding this correctly that you're, like, talking him into two weeks because you're not going to have a big fight with him?
我是否正确理解这一点，你之所以说服他两周，是因为你不会与他大吵一架？
Yeah, but it's just the story of our relationship.
是的，但这只是我们关系的故事。
We're just avoiding the conflicts all the time.
我们只是一直在避免冲突。
Well, she is.
嗯，她是。
This is how she is with everyone.
她对每个人都是这样。
So Nadia and Luka leave.
于是纳迪亚和卢卡离开了。
Karen stays.
凯伦留下来。
And Russia invades Ukraine.
俄罗斯入侵乌克兰。
Karen is going to protests, but he's lost, crying every day.
凯伦要去抗议，但他却迷失了方向，每天都在哭泣。
After a few days, he goes to a goodbye party at a friend's apartment.
几天后，他去朋友的公寓参加告别聚会。
And there, there were a lot of our common friends-- I don't know, 15 people.
那里有很多我们共同的朋友——我不知道，有15个人。
And everybody were discussing tickets, when and where everybody's going.
每个人都在讨论门票，以及每个人要去的时间和地点。
I can tell you when this was, because I was there.
我可以告诉你那是什么时候，因为我当时就在那里。
March 4.
3 月 4 日。
And it's true that this was all our friends were talking about.
确实，这就是我们所有朋友都在谈论的事情。
There were rumors that Russia would close the border, impose martial law, conscript all the men, and just a general sense that you had to get out now or it will be too late.
有传言称俄罗斯将关闭边境，实施戒严，征召所有士兵，人们普遍认为你必须现在离开，否则就太晚了。
At the party, Karen started to get upset.
在聚会上，凯伦开始变得心烦意乱。
Like, wait, you were all just going to leave me here?
就像，等等，你们就要把我留在这里？
And that was the moment I realized that if everybody is leaving, then I'm going to do it as well.
就在那一刻我意识到，如果每个人都离开，那么我也会这样做。
So Karen and his boyfriend buy tickets.
于是凯伦和他的男朋友买了票。
To give you a sense of just how difficult it was to get out by then, they end up flying to Ulan-Bator, the capital of Mongolia.
为了让你感受到当时的出境有多么困难，他们最终飞往了蒙古首都乌兰巴托。
From there, after a few days, they fly to Seoul, South Korea, then to Dubai, then to Yerevan, the capital of Armenia, where they stay for a bit.
几天后，他们从那里飞往韩国首尔，然后飞往迪拜，然后飞往亚美尼亚首都埃里温，并在那里停留一段时间。
Fight number two-- who is Russian, and who is Ukrainian?
第二场战斗——谁是俄罗斯人，谁是乌克兰人？
To understand the roots of this next fight, we have to go back a long time, to New Year's Eve 2010, when Karen and Nadia met.
为了了解下一场争斗的根源，我们必须追溯到很久以前，回到2010年新年前夜，当时凯伦和纳迪亚相遇了。
My friend Vera, she introduced me to Nadia, saying like, "This is Karen, and he wants to have a child.
我的朋友维拉，她把我介绍给纳迪亚，说：“这是凯伦，他想要一个孩子。
And this is Nadia, and she wants it too.
这是纳迪亚，她也想要。
So please invite me when everything is done and you're going to baptize your kid, and I'll be his or her godmother." And that was it.
所以，当一切都完成后，请邀请我，你要给你的孩子施洗，我将成为他或她的教母。”就是这样。
And we were like, OK, let's talk.
我们说，好吧，我们谈谈吧。
And several times, we talked about it.
我们多次谈论过这个问题。
And we decided, yes, let's do it.
我们决定，是的，我们就这么做吧。
They were 31 and 28.
他们分别是31岁和28岁。
They were both queer.
他们都很奇怪。
They were both Buddhists.
他们都是佛教徒。
So they had that in common.
所以他们有这个共同点。
Other than that, they didn't discuss any of the big issues of how to raise a child-- what school he would go to, what languages he would speak, how they would explain the world to him.
除此之外，他们没有讨论任何关于如何抚养孩子的重大问题——他会去什么学校，他会说什么语言，他们将如何向他解释世界。
Nadia knew she wanted to raise him in Ukraine.
纳迪亚知道她想在乌克兰抚养他。
She'd moved there from Moscow years before this.
几年前她就从莫斯科搬到了那里。
Karen wanted to stay in Moscow, but he'd visit.
凯伦想留在莫斯科，但他会来拜访。
They weren't exactly friends.
他们并不完全是朋友。
They went straight to being co-parents.
他们直接成为了共同父母。
They figured they'd work it out.
他们认为他们会解决这个问题。
A few years later, it was time to choose a school for Luka.
几年后，到了为卢卡选择学校的时候了。
Nadia had to make a commitment to the next 10 years or so of her son's schooling and the language in which he was going to study.
纳迪亚必须对儿子未来 10 年左右的学业以及他将要学习的语言做出承诺。
At the time, Kyiv had schools with instruction in Ukrainian, Russian, English, German, French.
当时，基辅设有用乌克兰语、俄语、英语、德语、法语授课的学校。
Nadia was struggling to make a choice, but Karen had a definite opinion.
娜迪亚正在艰难地做出选择，但凯伦却有明确的意见。
Of course, I was hoping that he will study Russian and he will read and write in Russian.
当然，我希望他能够学习俄语，并且能够用俄语阅读和写作。
I mean, all his family, including his Ukrainian part of the family, speaks only Russian.
我的意思是，他的所有家人，包括他的乌克兰家庭成员，都只说俄语。
And he is thinking in Russian.
他正在用俄语思考。
He never reads in Ukrainian.
他从不读乌克兰语。
So what's the point to try to artificially implement the language that he doesn't use and will not use when he grows up?
那么尝试人为地实现他不使用、长大后也不会使用的语言有什么意义呢？
Karen's kind of a funny one to be championing Russian culture.
凯伦倡导俄罗斯文化，这有点有趣。
He grew up an outsider.
他从小就是一个局外人。
His heritage is Armenian, Jewish, Greek, and, yeah, some Russian.
他有亚美尼亚血统、犹太血统、希腊血统，当然还有一些俄罗斯血统。
He has dark, curly hair, a trimmed beard, a wide, chiseled face, and a long, prominent nose.
他有一头深色卷发、修剪整齐的胡须、一张轮廓分明的宽脸和一个长而突出的鼻子。
He's beautiful.
他很漂亮。
He also doesn't look Russian at all.
他看起来也根本不像俄罗斯人。
It's not easy to grow up in Russia when you don't look ethnically Russian.
如果你看起来不像俄罗斯人，那么在俄罗斯长大并不容易。
I know.
我知道。
I grew up in Russia looking un-Russian, and I got teased, chased, and beaten up a lot.
我在俄罗斯长大，看起来不像俄罗斯人，我经常被嘲笑、追逐和殴打。
Karen's name marks him as an Armenian.
凯伦的名字表明他是亚美尼亚人。
He had to fight for the right to be Russian.
他必须为成为俄罗斯人的权利而奋斗。
Nadia, on the other hand, with her blonde hair and blue-gray eyes-- growing up in Moscow, she certainly never had to defend her right to be there.
另一方面，娜迪亚有着金色的头发和蓝灰色的眼睛——在莫斯科长大，她当然不需要捍卫自己在那里的权利。
She moved to Kyiv as a kind of experiment and found that she loved it there.
她搬到基辅作为一种尝试，并发现她喜欢那里。
It became her home.
这里成了她的家。
Karen and a lot of Nadia's friends, though, kept assuming she was in Ukraine temporarily.
然而，凯伦和纳迪亚的许多朋友一直假设她暂时在乌克兰。
On this particular night, Karen was a little drunk.
在这个特别的夜晚，凯伦有点醉了。
And that's when we started this fight.
那就是我们开始这场战斗的时候。
It started over schools, and then it went to that Ukrainian culture is not a culture, and the language is not language, and all that.
它从学校开始，然后就变成了乌克兰文化不是一种文化，语言也不是语言，等等。
And he went on and on.
他继续说下去。
And at first I was shocked.
起初我很震惊。
And so, he was like-- he said many things.
所以，他就像——他说了很多话。
And then, I was like, What am I supposed to do?
然后我就想，我该怎么办？
Because I can't fight with him.
因为我无法与他战斗。
I don't-- because I have to keep good relationships because he is Luka's father.
我不——因为我必须保持良好的关系，因为他是卢卡的父亲。
So I was like, OK, please, don't say these things.
所以我想，好吧，请不要说这些话。
Because we Ukrainians-- and he was like, no, you're not Ukrainians.
因为我们是乌克兰人——他说，不，你们不是乌克兰人。
You're Russians.
你们是俄罗斯人。
You're from Moscow, and he's Russian.
你来自莫斯科，他是俄罗斯人。
And I was like, OK.
我当时想，好吧。
Yeah, of course, I was biased, and I am still biased.
是的，当然，我有偏见，现在仍然有偏见。
But biased how?
但偏向如何呢？
Karen Biased toward Russian heritage.
凯伦偏向俄罗斯血统。
This is important part of my identity.
这是我身份的重要组成部分。
And I was convinced that this is an important part of his identity also.
我确信这也是他身份的重要组成部分。
In fact, Karen had always hoped that Nadia would move back to Moscow.
事实上，凯伦一直希望纳迪亚能搬回莫斯科。
Nadia had zero intention of doing that.
娜迪亚这样做的意图为零。
The thing is, I always hated the idea that he has to go to Moscow even over the vacation.
问题是，我一直讨厌他即使在假期也必须去莫斯科的想法。
And I never liked the influence it was on him.
我从来不喜欢这对他的影响。
Not that she said this to Karen.
这并不是她对凯伦说的。
Why start a fight?
为什么要开始打架？
Because all the time Luka was going to Russia for one month a year, his father was insistently feeding him-- like, "You're Russian.
因为卢卡每年去俄罗斯一个月，他的父亲一直坚持喂他——就像，“你是俄罗斯人。
You're not Ukrainian.
你不是乌克兰人。
You got nothing to do with Ukraine.
你和乌克兰没有任何关系。
There's no such thing as Ukrainian culture.
没有乌克兰文化这样的东西。
The Ukrainian language is not good, and there's this tremendous Russian culture-- you should heading towards that."
乌克兰语不好，而俄罗斯文化却很丰富——你应该朝那个方向发展。”
And then Luka would be coming back and saying, you know, "I don't like to attend some Ukrainian holidays or wear vyshyvanka." And I was like, "Why would you do that?"
然后卢卡会回来说，你知道，“我不喜欢参加一些乌克兰假期或穿 vyshyvanka。”我当时想，“你为什么要这么做？”
A vyshyvanka is a traditional Ukrainian embroidered Shirt.
vyshyvanka 是一种传统的乌克兰刺绣衬衫。
Karen told me he didn't have anything against Ukrainian tradition in particular.
凯伦告诉我，他并没有什么特别反对乌克兰传统的事情。
We all know that traditional costumes are just literally bad taste for everybody.
我们都知道，传统服装对每个人来说都是很糟糕的品味。
No matter if this is vyshyvanka or traditional Russian costume, we look down to that in general because it's silly, because it has something to do with the nationalism we all hated-- always.
无论这是维什万卡服装还是传统的俄罗斯服装，我们一般都会看不起它，因为它很愚蠢，因为它与我们都讨厌的民族主义有关——总是如此。
Like, at least we thought we hated.
就像，至少我们认为我们讨厌。
There's a big difference between Russian and Ukrainian national costumes.
俄罗斯和乌克兰的民族服饰有很大区别。
The vyshyvanka, long before the war, was a symbol of the renaissance of Ukrainian culture and identity after the fall of the Soviet Union.
早在战前，维希万卡就是苏联解体后乌克兰文化和身份复兴的象征。
Ukraine was a former colony of Russia.
乌克兰曾是俄罗斯的殖民地。
Karen, like most Russians, was oblivious to this.
凯伦和大多数俄罗斯人一样，没有意识到这一点。
This is not about Russia or Ukraine.
这与俄罗斯或乌克兰无关。
This is about, like, sense of style.
这与风格感有关。
Kind of.
有点儿。
To Nadia, it was about Karen's attitudes toward all things Ukrainian.
对纳迪亚来说，这关系到凯伦对乌克兰一切事物的态度。
He thought Kyiv was a backwater.
他认为基辅是一潭死水。
I hate to mention it, but he was visiting museums or theaters or concerts only when I was coming to Kyiv, and I took him to the same two or three museums.
我不想提这一点，但只有当我来基辅时，他才参观博物馆、剧院或音乐会，我带他去了同样的两三个博物馆。
And not to mention theaters-- there are almost none in Kyiv.
更不用说剧院了——基辅几乎没有。
How much theater and museums did you get when you were a kid?
你小时候去过多少剧院和博物馆？
Unfortunately not too much.
不幸的是没有太多。
Not too many.
不是太多。
Because I was born and raised in Siberia in Irkutsk.
因为我在西伯利亚的伊尔库茨克出生和长大。
And this is not, like, a big cultural center.
这并不是一个大型文化中心。
Every parent wants to give their children what they didn't have growing up.
每个父母都想给孩子他们成长过程中没有得到的东西。
Nadia, unlike Karen, grew up in the center of Moscow, in the very heart of the empire, in a privileged family.
纳迪亚（Nadia）与凯伦（Karen）不同，她在莫斯科市中心、帝国的中心的一个特权家庭中长大。
Karen couldn't believe she was willing to give up what he had so longed for as a kid.
凯伦不敢相信她愿意放弃他小时候所渴望的东西。
Nadia, for her part, wanted to avoid conflict.
就纳迪亚而言，她希望避免冲突。
So in the end, Luka didn't go to a Ukrainian school or a Russian school.
所以最终卢卡没有去乌克兰学校，也没有去俄罗斯学校。
He enrolled in a German school in Kyiv.
他就读于基辅的一所德国学校。
When the war started, all those things that Luka had heard his father say, that he and his mother are really Russian, these ideas hit Luka hard.
战争开始时，卢卡听到他父亲说的所有这些事情，他和他的母亲实际上都是俄罗斯人，这些想法对卢卡造成了沉重打击。
His father's country was bombing his motherland.
他父亲的国家正在轰炸他的祖国。
Luka was crying and saying, "It's my fault.
卢卡哭着说：“都是我的错。
I'm Russian." So I called his father, and I said, "Look what have you done.
我是俄罗斯人。”所以我打电话给他的父亲，我说：“看看你做了什么。
Luka now thinks that it's his fault because he is Russian."
卢卡现在认为这是他的错，因为他是俄罗斯人。”
He felt that he's half this and have that, and now there is huge inner conflict inside of him.
他觉得自己一半是这个，一半是那个，现在他内心有巨大的冲突。
Because to him, to his kid's mind, that was like one half of him is attacking the other half of himself.
因为对他来说，对他孩子来说，这就像他的一半在攻击自己的另一半。
Talking to Luka didn't help much.
与卢卡交谈并没有多大帮助。
Maybe he could be convinced that the war wasn't his fault, but he was still stuck with this problem of being both Ukrainian and Russian.
也许他可以确信战争不是他的错，但他仍然被乌克兰人和俄罗斯人的身份所困扰。
The war was tearing him apart.
战争把他撕裂了。
It maybe didn't help that he and his moms were still on the move.
他和他的妈妈仍然在搬家，这可能并没有帮助。
They finally landed in Lisbon.
他们终于抵达里斯本。
I was thinking maybe, suggesting maybe, you think you're going to be Portuguese since we live in Portugal?
我在想，也许，也许，你认为你会成为葡萄牙人，因为我们住在葡萄牙？
And he was like, "No, no, no, I'm German.
他说：“不，不，不，我是德国人。
I'm definitely German." And I was like, "Why?" And then the psychologist explained to me that at this age they just pick the safest environment.
我绝对是德国人。”我当时想，“为什么？”然后心理学家向我解释说，在这个年龄段，他们只会选择最安全的环境。
Luka had gone to German school in Kyiv.
卢卡曾在基辅的德国学校上学。
He was going to start attending a German school in Lisbon.
他打算开始在里斯本的一所德国学校上学。
Choosing Germany was a way to avoid choosing Ukraine or choosing Russia, a way to avoid choosing between his parents.
选择德国是避免选择乌克兰或俄罗斯的一种方式，是避免在父母之间做出选择的一种方式。
I think Germany felt neutral.
我认为德国保持中立。
Fights number three and number four-- Crimea and the globe.
第三和第四场战斗——克里米亚和全球。
A few years back, Karen surprised Nadia.
几年前，凯伦让纳迪亚感到惊讶。
For his part of summer vacation, he suggested taking Luka to Crimea.
在暑假期间，他建议带卢卡去克里米亚。
Crimea had been under Russian occupation for several years.
克里米亚多年来一直处于俄罗斯占领之下。
Once upon a time, it had been a vacation destination for both Russians and Ukrainians.
曾几何时，这里是俄罗斯人和乌克兰人的度假胜地。
But after the occupation, Crimea was off limits for Ukrainians.
但在被占领之后，克里米亚就不再是乌克兰人的禁区。
And I was like, "No, no, no, we don't go to Crimea." And they were like, "No, come on." Because the whole family of his father used to spend summer in Crimea, so they will continue doing that.
我当时想，“不，不，不，我们不去克里米亚。”他们说：“不，来吧。”因为他父亲的全家曾经在克里米亚度过夏天，所以他们会继续这样做。
And they were calling us and saying, "Can Luka come so the kids can spend time together." And I was like, "Yeah, I don't mind." But we don't go to Crimea, we Ukrainians, because it's not our land and there's the whole thing about it.
他们打电话给我们说：“卢卡可以来吗，这样孩子们就可以一起度过时光。”我当时想，“是的，我不介意。”但我们乌克兰人不会去克里米亚，因为那不是我们的土地，而且这就是它的全部。
Imagine you live in a house and one day someone comes in with a gun and just takes over the second floor.
想象一下，你住在一所房子里，有一天有人拿着枪进来，占领了二楼。
And it wasn't a bunch of empty rooms.
而且这并不是一堆空房间。
Your cousin was living there.
你的表弟住在那里。
Now your cousin isn't allowed to talk to you.
现在你的表弟不准和你说话。
And suddenly, your friend goes, "Hey, let's go visit the guy who's living on the second floor of your house.
突然，你的朋友说：“嘿，我们去拜访住在你家二楼的那个人吧。
I've always liked the view from there."
我一直很喜欢那里的景色。”
I never shared this point of view that you cannot visit annexed territories.
我从来没有同意过不能访问附属领土的观点。
Well, I guess for Ukrainians, it's completely different.
嗯，我想对于乌克兰人来说，情况完全不同。
For them, if you go there, it means that you support the idea that Crimea is part of Russia or that that was legal.
对他们来说，如果你去那里，就意味着你支持克里米亚是俄罗斯的一部分或者这是合法的。
He really couldn't see what the big deal was.
他实在是看不出有什么大不了的。
They'd go there, support the local economy.
他们会去那里支持当地经济。
After all, the people of Crimea weren't to blame for being occupied.
毕竟，克里米亚人民不应因被占领而受到指责。
There's no way I can explain what I feel.
我无法解释我的感受。
So the only way I could say, "OK, it doesn't matter what I feel.
所以我只能说：“好吧，我的感受并不重要。
Probably, you're right." But on the 1st of September, the kid would have to go to Ukrainian school.
也许，你是对的。”但9月1日，孩子必须去乌克兰学校。
And then when they ask him how he spent the summer, and if he says he goes to Crimea, he's going to be in big trouble.
然后当他们问他这个夏天过得怎么样时，如果他说他去了克里米亚，他就会遇到大麻烦。
That worked.
那行得通。
The Crimean vacation was averted.
克里米亚假期被避免了。
But then came the globe.
但随后地球出现了。
When Russia occupied Crimea, it printed up new maps and made new globes that labeled Crimea as part of Russia.
当俄罗斯占领克里米亚时，它印制了新地图并制作了新地球仪，将克里米亚标记为俄罗斯的一部分。
And as Nadia recalls, Karen and his boyfriend were coming for a visit and bringing a globe as a present for Luka.
据纳迪亚回忆，凯伦和他的男朋友来拜访，并给卢卡带来了一个地球仪作为礼物。
And on the plane, they realized that this is a Russian globe.
在飞机上，他们意识到这是一个俄罗斯地球仪。
It showed Crimea as a part of Russia.
它显示克里米亚是俄罗斯的一部分。
This would be a problem when they'd land in Ukraine and have to go through customs.
当他们降落在乌克兰并必须通过海关时，这将是一个问题。
And they got really scared that somebody would decide to check it, and they'll be in big trouble.
他们真的很害怕有人会决定检查它，他们会遇到大麻烦。
They'll be stopped and not allowed to enter the Ukraine because they brought the globe with Crimea being marked as part of Russia.
他们将被拦截，不被允许进入乌克兰，因为他们把克里米亚带到了地球上，被标记为俄罗斯的一部分。
So they were really scared, but it's-- but they couldn't throw it away because it was a big thing to get rid of.
所以他们真的很害怕，但是他们不能扔掉它，因为它是一件需要扔掉的大东西。
It's really obvious.
这真的很明显。
And, you know, in a toilet-- it's not even many places where you can leave it.
而且，你知道，在厕所里，甚至没有很多地方可以把它放在地上。
So they kind of had this poker face, and they crossed the customs, and nobody even checked.
所以他们有点扑克脸，他们通过了海关，甚至没有人检查。
They left the airport.
他们离开了机场。
They took a taxi to Nadia's house.
他们乘出租车去了纳迪亚家。
They gave the globe to Luka, and they told the story of how they had this realization on the plane and were stuck with the globe.
他们把地球仪交给了卢卡，并讲述了他们如何在飞机上意识到这一点并被地球仪困住的故事。
And it was like the biggest joke.
这就像是一个最大的笑话。
They would keep telling it to everyone.
他们会一直告诉每个人。
It was like, "Ha, ha, how funny.
就像是，“哈哈哈，真有趣。
Imagine how stupid." And I was stuck with this thing in my house.
想象一下多么愚蠢。”我被我家里的这个东西困住了。
The globe was Luka's, but it was Nadia who felt stuck with it.
地球仪是卢卡的，但纳迪亚却觉得被它困住了。
I don't want to offend your father's feelings.
我不想冒犯你父亲的感情。
It's really nice that-- and it's your present.
真是太好了——而且这是你的礼物。
And I know if I throw it away, it would be a huge scandal.
我知道如果我把它扔掉，那将是一个巨大的丑闻。
So I was kind of saying "I'm really, really sorry, and I totally understand.
所以我想说的是“我真的非常非常抱歉，我完全理解。
But again, it might be some other people visiting, other Ukrainian people visiting my house and get offended.
但同样，可能还有其他人来访，其他乌克兰人来访我家并感到被冒犯。
So I'm really sorry, but I'm getting rid of this globe." This is how-- it always been like this.
所以我真的很抱歉，但我要摆脱这个地球了。”就是这样——一直都是这样。
I couldn't really say, "What a fucking stupid idea.
我真的无法说：“这真是个愚蠢的主意。
Why the hell you brought this globe to my house, give it to your son?" It always have to be the long way after other people might get offended.
你到底为什么把这个地球仪带到我家，送给你儿子？”在其他人可能被冒犯之后，总是必须有很长的路要走。
You know how people remember important events in completely different ways?
你知道人们如何以完全不同的方式记住重要事件吗？
In Karen's version of the story, there was no globe on the airplane, no fretting about customs.
在凯伦的故事版本中，飞机上没有地球仪，也不用担心海关问题。
But there was a globe-- until there wasn't.
但有一个地球仪——直到没有了。
It's not there when I visited him the next time in Kyiv.
当我下次去基辅拜访他时，它不在那儿了。
And I was like, "And where is your globe?" And he was like, "Well, you know, there is a tiny mistake on that globe, so Mama hided it from me." And I realized what kind of mistake, but I never-- I can't recall that there was any fight about it.
我当时想，“那你的地球仪在哪里？”他说：“好吧，你知道，那个地球仪上有一个小错误，所以妈妈把它藏起来了。”我意识到了什么样的错误，但我从来没有——我不记得有过任何关于这件事的争吵。
Did she tell you that we had fight about the globe?
她有告诉过你我们为了地球而争吵吗？
No, no. She said that she felt compelled to tell you that she had to get it out of the house because Ukrainian friends would see it.
不，不。她说她觉得有必要告诉你，她必须把它带出家门，因为乌克兰朋友会看到它。
Ah, no. So nobody saw it.
啊，不。所以没有人看到。
There was no problem.
没有问题。
[LAUGHS] Right.
[笑]对。
And did Luka actually say "tiny mistake?"
卢卡真的说过“小错误”吗？
Yes.
是的。
That was-- [LAUGHS] it was so touching, you know, so sweet of him.
那是——[笑]这太感人了，你知道，他太可爱了。
He was shy and was like, well, you know, there was a tiny mistake on the globe.
他很害羞，就像，嗯，你知道，地球上出了一个小错误。
So-- [LAUGHS] I never told him, like, "What the hell?" I didn't make any drama of it.
所以——[笑]我从来没有告诉过他，“到底是什么？”我没有做任何戏剧性的事情。
And you didn't ask Nadia about it either?
你也没有问过娜迪亚吗？
Of course not.
当然不是。
It was clear that that's a problem.
很明显这是一个问题。
Fight number five-- Bucha.
第五场战斗——Bucha。
When the full scale invasion began, it began with the unimaginable.
当全面入侵开始时，一切都以难以想象的方式开始。
Almost immediately, Russian tanks were right outside of Kyiv.
几乎立刻，俄罗斯坦克就出现在基辅郊外。
Russian troops occupied the Western suburbs.
俄罗斯军队占领了西郊。
Ukrainians, fighting to keep them out of the city, blew up the bridge that connected the Western suburbs to Kyiv.
乌克兰人为将他们赶出城市而战，炸毁了连接西郊和基辅的桥梁。
And that bridge?
那座桥呢？
It's just a short walk from Nadia's house.
距离纳迪亚的家仅几步之遥。
Their town borders Bucha, a place that's become synonymous with Russian war crimes.
他们的城镇与布查接壤，布查已成为俄罗斯战争罪行的代名词。
Nadia, her girlfriend, Sophie, and Luka were watching the invasion from a distance.
纳迪亚、她的女朋友、苏菲和卢卡正在远处观看入侵。
And they were sick with worry because that house was not empty.
他们非常担心，因为那所房子并不是空的。
Nadia's father and Sophie's mother were there, along with two pugs and several cats.
纳迪亚的父亲和索菲的母亲在那里，还有两只哈巴狗和几只猫。
Were they safe?
他们安全吗？
Were they alive?
他们还活着吗？
Nadia posted on Facebook-- "We haven't heard from our parents in four days.
纳迪亚在脸书上发帖称：“我们已经四天没有收到父母的消息了。
I don't know how they're doing for food and water.
我不知道他们的食物和水怎么样。
They had a bit in reserve.
他们有一点储备。
I think they're probably afraid to fire up the stove.
我想他们可能害怕生火。
Is there anyone in the area who could show them a safe way out?"
该地区有人可以给他们指一条安全的出路吗？”
Nadia's father and Sophie's mother were the last people remaining in their gated community.
纳迪亚的父亲和索菲的母亲是他们的封闭社区中最后剩下的人。
They hung blankets over the windows.
他们把毯子挂在窗户上。
They had no electricity.
他们没有电。
And yes, they were scared.
是的，他们很害怕。
And here's the thing their daughters could not imagine-- they were in love.
这是他们的女儿们无法想象的事情——她们相爱了。
They'd gotten together.
他们在一起了。
They lived by candlelight.
他们靠烛光生活。
They made a fire in the fireplace and cooked shishkebab.
他们在壁炉里生了火，煮了烤羊肉串。
When the shelling was heavy, they lay in bed holding each other and felt the house rock back and forth.
当炮弹猛烈时，他们躺在床上互相拥抱，感觉房子前后摇晃。
Finally, Nadia got hold of some Ukrainian soldiers in the area who told her there was a way out and they'd help.
最后，纳迪亚找到了该地区的一些乌克兰士兵，他们告诉她有一条出路，他们会提供帮助。
The soldiers came to the house and told Nadia's father-- let's call him Alex-- he had half an hour to pack.
士兵们来到房子里告诉纳迪亚的父亲——我们就叫他亚历克斯吧——他有半个小时的时间来收拾行李。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Interpreter Oh, that's funny.
[说俄语] 翻译哦，这很有趣。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Interpreter I packed what I thought was particularly important.
[说俄语] 翻译 我打包了我认为特别重要的东西。
I took a coffee maker, a supply of coffee that I thought would last for six months, half a suitcase of coffee.
我带了一个咖啡机、一份我认为可以喝六个月的咖啡、半箱咖啡。
Then, for some reason, I decided I should bring wine.
然后，出于某种原因，我决定我应该带酒。
And so, I packed a suitcase of wine.
于是，我收拾了一箱酒。
And then I decided to take some things that I thought would dear to Nadia.
然后我决定带走一些我认为对娜迪亚来说很珍贵的东西。
For some reason, I took some of her Buddhist figurines.
出于某种原因，我拿走了她的一些佛像。
Yeah, 10 euro Buddha statue.
是的，10欧元的佛像。
Because it was standing in the kitchen, like in the middle of everything, and my father thought it was somehow valuable.
因为它立在厨房里，就像在一切的中间，而我父亲认为它在某种程度上很有价值。
They also brought the two pugs.
他们还带来了两只哈巴狗。
They left the cats behind with lots of food.
他们给猫留下了很多食物。
They drove into Kyiv, where they were joined by another couple and another pug.
他们开车进入基辅，在那里，另一对夫妇和另一只哈巴狗加入了他们。
By this time, the car was so tightly packed, with stuff on top of people and pugs on top of stuff, the doors could only be closed from the outside.
这时候车里已经挤得很挤了，人上面压着东西，东西上面压着哈巴狗，车门只能从外面关上。
And they started driving, and it was really difficult with all these checkpoints.
他们开始开车，所有这些检查站真的很困难。
Everybody was, like, traumatized obviously.
每个人显然都受到了创伤。
And this Ophelia, the one pug, she started to have a heat or whatever.
还有这只奥菲莉亚，那只哈巴狗，她开始发烧或其他什么情况。
Yeah?
是的？
So they started to mate all the way.
于是他们开始一路交配。
They were like driving, not sleeping, with all these checkpoints.
面对这些检查站，他们就像在开车，而不是在睡觉。
And those two dogs are fucking on everyone because they didn't have a space.
那两只狗在每个人身上操，因为他们没有空间。
So it was happening on everyone.
所以这发生在每个人身上。
And whenever they were trying to pull them apart, they were biting.
每当它们试图将它们分开时，它们就会咬住。
Alex dropped off Lena and the other couple and the male pug in Western Ukraine and continued on to Bratislava, the capital of Slovakia, where he picked up Nadia for the drive through the rest of Europe.
亚历克斯在乌克兰西部放下莉娜和另一对夫妇以及雄性哈巴狗，然后继续前往斯洛伐克首都布拉迪斯拉发，在那里他接了纳迪亚，开车穿越欧洲其他地区。
So it was my father and two dogs in a really smelly and dirty car full of some weird stuff he grabbed from the house when he had half an hour.
所以是我父亲和两只狗坐在一辆又臭又脏的车里，车里装满了他半小时从家里抓来的一些奇怪的东西。
Nadia disposed of some of the junk, including the giant IKEA Buddha, almost as soon as she got in the car.
纳迪亚几乎一上车就处理掉了一些垃圾，其中包括巨大的宜家佛像。
Then they kept driving.
然后他们继续开车。
And so we were driving and driving.
所以我们一直在开车。
And at some point the news came about Bucha.
某个时候，关于布查的消息传来了。
We started getting the pictures.
我们开始获取照片。
Ukrainian troops had just entered Bucha after a month of Russian occupation.
乌克兰军队在俄罗斯占领一个月后刚刚进入布恰。
And what they saw was bodies-- bodies lying across sidewalks, bodies in the middle of the street, bodies with their hands tied behind their backs, demolished and burnt out houses, the charred remains of tanks, and more bodies of ordinary residents of Bucha who had been executed.
他们看到的却是尸体——人行道上的尸体、街道中央的尸体、双手反绑在背后的尸体、被拆毁和烧毁的房屋、烧焦的坦克残骸，以及更多被处决的布查普通居民的尸体。
These were pictures of streets Nadia and her father knew intimately.
这些是纳迪亚和她父亲熟悉的街道的照片。
There was a park in Bucha where Nadia used to take Luka.
布查有一个公园，娜迪亚曾经带卢卡去那里。
So Nadia was in the passenger seat, looking at her phone and seeing photos of the bodies.
纳迪亚坐在乘客座位上，看着手机，看到尸体的照片。
Then she and her father switched.
然后她和她父亲交换了。
She took the wheel.
她掌管了方向盘。
So I kind of mentioned this Bucha thing.
所以我提到了这个Bucha的事情。
And I said, "Do you know what happened in Bucha?" He was like, "No." So I told him, and he was really surprised.
我说：“你知道布查发生了什么吗？”他说：“不。”所以我告诉了他，他真的很惊讶。
And he was like, "Oh, my god.
他就像是，“哦，天啊。
Really?" And I was like-- I told them all I knew.
真的吗？”我就像——我告诉了他们我所知道的一切。
And he was trying to figure it out in his head.
他试图在脑海中弄清楚这一点。
And then, he was like, "No, I can't believe in this.
然后，他说：“不，我不敢相信这一点。
This must be-- you have to check this information.
这一定是——你必须检查这个信息。
It can't be true." And I was like, "No, no, no. I already checked it.
这不可能是真的。”我当时想，“不，不，不。我已经检查过了。
It was everywhere this morning, and the sources are reliable." And he was like, "No. No, no. It can't be." And he started giving me this lecture on Ukrainian propaganda.
今天早上到处都是，而且消息来源是可靠的。”他说：“不。不，不。这不可能。”他开始给我讲有关乌克兰宣传的讲座。
Alex is Russian.
亚历克斯是俄罗斯人。
He moved to Ukraine with Nadia 20 years ago.
20 年前，他与纳迪亚 (Nadia) 搬到了乌克兰。
They built a house together, and he loved it.
他们一起盖了一座房子，他很喜欢它。
Now he was saying, "who knows if what you're reading is true.
现在他说：“谁知道你读到的内容是否属实。
Or if it's true, is it the only truth?
或者如果这是真的，它是唯一的事实吗？
And anyway, things are never so black and white."
不管怎样，事情从来都不是那么黑白分明。”
And I was like, "Wait, wait, wait wait.
我当时想，“等等，等等，等等。
Let's not switch to-- let's not discuss Ukraine propaganda.
我们不要讨论乌克兰的宣传。
I'm telling you about the situation which happened in Bucha, which I consider my hometown."
我正在告诉你发生在布查的情况，我认为那里是我的家乡。”
By suggesting that maybe things aren't so clear, so black and white, so knowable, Alex was, in fact, doing what Russian propaganda does.
亚历克斯暗示事情可能并不那么清楚、那么黑白分明、那么可知，事实上，亚历克斯正在做俄罗斯宣传所做的事情。
Its main message is that no one really knows what happened.
它的主要信息是没有人真正知道发生了什么。
If you weren't there, you can't judge.
如果你不在现场，你无法做出判断。
Everyone has a vested interest in everything.
每个人对每件事都有既得利益。
No one is a reliable source.
没有人是可靠的消息来源。
It provides people with a myriad of ways to avoid the truth and no way to know it.
它为人们提供了无数的方法来逃避真相却又无从得知真相。
But, of course, Alex was there.
但是，当然，亚历克斯就在那里。
He had just been there.
他刚刚去过那里。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN].
[说俄语]。
Interpreter I know Bucha inside out, and I've seen what kind of destruction was there.
翻译 我对Bucha了如指掌，我也见过那里有什么样的破坏。
It was horrible.
太可怕了。
I know of some absolutely awful things when soldiers would come to people's house, when they turn all over the houses looking for weapons, looking for "terrorists." And I even know of a friend of a friend who went to get a bread, and while he was getting bread he was shot and killed.
我知道一些绝对可怕的事情，当士兵来到人们的房子里，当他们翻遍房子寻找武器，寻找“恐怖分子”时。我什至认识一个朋友的朋友，他去拿面包，当他拿面包时，他被枪杀了。
And I know all of this.
我知道这一切。
I'm well aware of it.
我很清楚这一点。
But the thing is, when people talk about mass burials, about people shot with their hands tied behind their back, you know, as a scientist, I believe in facts.
但问题是，当人们谈论集体埋葬、谈论双手被绑在背后被枪杀的人时，你知道，作为一名科学家，我相信事实。
But these events, you know, I just haven't seen this for myself.
但这些事件，你知道，我只是没有亲眼目睹。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN].
[说俄语]。
Interpreter It's not that I can't believe in it.
翻译：我并不是不相信。
I just refuse to believe it.
我只是拒绝相信。
I refuse to believe that Russian soldier came and took civilians, that he tied their hands, took them all out, and then shot them all.
我拒绝相信俄罗斯士兵来了，带走了平民，他绑住了他们的手，把他们全部带走，然后枪杀了他们。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN].
[说俄语]。
Interpreter I mean, that's just genocide to take people and tie their hands and shoot them.
翻译：我的意思是，这只是种族灭绝，把人绑起来然后开枪射杀。
Well, I just psychologically refuse to believe in that.
好吧，我只是从心理上拒绝相信这一点。
So this was happening while they were driving through Spain, Nadia behind the wheel, reeling from the photos from Bucha that she had just seen; and Alex in the passenger seat, arguing his way out of believing that the atrocities actually happened.
这件事发生在他们开车穿越西班牙的时候，Nadia 坐在方向盘上，她刚刚看到的 Bucha 的照片让她头晕目眩。亚历克斯坐在乘客座位上，辩解着他不相信暴行确实发生过。
And the thing is, Nadia and her father are very close.
事实是，纳迪亚和她的父亲非常亲密。
They moved to Ukraine 20 years ago together because Alex wanted to try living there.
20 年前，他们一起搬到了乌克兰，因为 Alex 想尝试在那里生活。
They built that house together.
他们一起建造了那栋房子。
They lived together.
他们住在一起。
And she had just lived through the hell of not knowing if he was alive or dead.
而她刚刚经历了不知道他是生是死的地狱。
And now these pictures from Bucha, they showed how close the danger had been and just how awful.
现在，Bucha 的这些照片显示了危险是多么接近和多么可怕。
And this was the moment Alex chose to use the language of Russian propaganda and say maybe things were not so black and white?
就在这时，亚历克斯选择使用俄罗斯的宣传语言，说也许事情并不是那么黑白分明？
And I remember, because we were driving through Spain, and it was heavy rain.
我记得，因为我们开车穿过西班牙，当时下了大雨。
And I said, "Please stop.
我说：“请停下来。
Because if you weren't my father--"
因为如果你不是我父亲——”
"If you weren't my father." Nadia "--I would get you out of the car here, even though it's rain." And I said, "Please stop, and let's never ever have this type of conversation again." And it was silent for a minute.
“如果你不是我父亲的话。”纳迪亚：“——即使下雨，我也会把你从车里弄出来。”我说：“请停下来，我们再也不要进行这种类型的谈话了。”沉默了一分钟。
And then he said, "Blood is not water."
然后他说：“血不是水。”
That's Russian for "blood is thicker than water."
这是俄语，意思是“血浓于水”。
He was trying to ease the situation.
他试图缓和局势。
But that's when I understood that it's serious between us-- this gap.
但那时我才明白我们之间的差距很严重。
Masha Gessen.
玛莎·格森。
Coming up, after sending bombs and troops near to Nadia's house outside Kyiv, Russia sends her a bill.
接下来，在向基辅郊外纳迪亚的房子附近派遣炸弹和军队后，俄罗斯向她发出了一份法案。
That's in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.
稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program, "Eight Fights." If you're just tuning in, Masha Gessen is telling the story of one of the many families who have people on both sides of the border between Russia and Ukraine and the family fights they've gotten into since the Russian invasion.
今天的节目是《八战》。如果您刚刚收听，玛莎·格森正在讲述俄罗斯和乌克兰边境两侧都有人的众多家庭之一的故事，以及自俄罗斯入侵以来他们陷入的家庭斗争。
So far, Masha's friend Nadia has fought with her kid's dad, with her own father.
到目前为止，玛莎的朋友纳迪亚已经和她孩子的父亲以及她自己的父亲发生了争执。
Masha picks up where we left off.
玛莎从我们上次停下的地方继续。
Fight number six-- about giving money to the Russian government.
第六场斗争——关于向俄罗斯政府提供资金。
By spring of last year, a couple of months into the war, something changed in Nadia.
去年春天，战争爆发几个月后，纳迪亚发生了一些变化。
Gone was the person who avoided fights.
那个避免打架的人已经消失了。
It was almost as if she wanted confrontation.
就好像她想要对抗一样。
And it so happened that at this time, notices from the Russian authorities started arriving at Nadia's mother's apartment in Moscow, indicating that Nadia needed to pay a fine.
而恰巧此时，俄罗斯当局的通知开始抵达纳迪亚母亲位于莫斯科的公寓，表明纳迪亚需要缴纳罚款。
This was a fine she had already paid.
这是她已经缴纳的罚款。
She had a receipt.
她有一张收据。
But the Russian state which was bombing Ukraine wanted more of Nadia's money.
但轰炸乌克兰的俄罗斯政府想要纳迪亚更多的钱。
And then I've got a letter that I have to pay it again to the Ministry of Internal Affairs or something.
然后我收到一封信，要求我再次向内政部或其他机构付款。
And I was like, "Oh no, I'm not definitely paying no money to these guys in my life."
我当时想，“哦，不，我绝对不会在我的生活中不付钱给这些人。”
Oh god, some pathetic sum.
天啊，一笔可怜的钱。
Probably about 10,000 rubles.
大概10,000卢布左右。
Which I don't know even how much money is that?
我什至不知道那是多少钱？
I mean, it's not much.
我的意思是，这并不多。
It's under $100 I think.
我认为不到 100 美元。
Nadia It's definitely under $100.
Nadia 这绝对低于 100 美元。
Nadia wanted her mother to do something about it.
纳迪亚希望她的母亲为此做点什么。
Nadia demanded that she go to the tax office and appeal the fine.
纳迪亚要求她去税务局对罚款提出上诉。
She wanted her 70-year-old, five-foot-tall mother to go up against the Russian bureaucracy over less than $100.
她希望她 70 岁、身高 5 英尺的母亲能够为了不到 100 美元而与俄罗斯官僚作斗争。
And she wouldn't let it go.
而她不会放过它。
She kept calling.
她一直打电话。
Her mother understood why Nadia was upset.
她的母亲明白纳迪亚为什么不高兴。
She opposes the war too.
她也反对战争。
But she is Russian, and she looked at this fine the way a Muscovite does.
但她是俄罗斯人，她以莫斯科人的方式看待这件事。
She thought Nadia should forget about it.
她认为纳迪亚应该忘记这件事。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN].
[说俄语]。
Masha Gessen She's saying, "I mean, I live here.
玛莎·格森（Masha Gessen）她说：“我的意思是，我住在这里。
All my taxes, all my money, already goes to them anyway.
无论如何，我所有的税、我所有的钱都已经归他们所有了。
So it's not a big deal for me." Nadia knows that her mother opposes the war.
所以这对我来说不是什么大事。”纳迪亚知道她的母亲反对战争。
But that's just the thing that's driving her crazy, that her mother is so resigned.
但正是这一点让她发疯，她的母亲如此听天由命。
And I said that, you know, "That's the whole thing about you Russians, that you just can't be bothered.
我说，你知道，“这就是你们俄罗斯人的全部，就是你们不愿意被打扰。
And you pay money to this government because you can't be bothered not to pay.
你向这个政府付钱是因为你不愿意不付钱。
And this is why the whole thing is happening."
这就是整个事情发生的原因。”
Fight number seven-- the Nice showdown.
第七场比赛——尼斯对决。
Five months into the war, Karen took Luka on vacation to Nice, to the beach.
战争结束五个月后，凯伦带着卢卡去尼斯海滩度假。
I can sort of imagine how Karen was feeling.
我可以想象凯伦的感受。
He spent five months in shock and in a scramble-- emigrating, reorienting his professional life.
他在震惊和挣扎中度过了五个月——移民、重新调整他的职业生活。
And now here he was on vacation, in France.
现在他正在法国度假。
The buildings in Nice are white.
尼斯的建筑都是白色的。
The sea and the sky are blue.
大海和天空都是蓝色的。
And even the ships, also white, look like they are there to complete the postcard view.
甚至连船只也是白色的，看起来就像是为了完成明信片的景色一样。
Nice is a place a lot of people from the Russian Empire had gone to about 100 years earlier, fleeing the revolution and Civil War.
尼斯是大约 100 年前许多俄罗斯帝国人为逃离革命和内战而前往的地方。
Karen must have imagined that they experienced the same combination of feeling dislocated and soothed by the beauty of it all.
凯伦一定想象过，他们经历了同样的错综复杂的感觉，同时又被这一切的美丽所抚慰。
He took a picture of Luka at an outdoor restaurant table, his blond hair blowing against the blue, blue sky.
他在户外餐厅的餐桌上给卢卡拍了一张照片，他的金发在蔚蓝的天空中飘扬。
And he sent it to Nadia with the caption-- "The latest wave of Russian immigrants in Nice." Russian immigrants.
他把它发给纳迪亚，并附上标题——“尼斯的最新一波俄罗斯移民”。俄罗斯移民。
He wrote "Russian immigrants."
他写了《俄罗斯移民》。
You know, I was so angry.
你知道，我当时非常生气。
I took five minutes to smoke a cigarette.
我花了五分钟抽了一支烟。
And then I was like, "Oh, calm down, calm down." I was like, "He's not Russian" I wrote him.
然后我就想，“哦，冷静点，冷静点。”我当时想，“他不是俄罗斯人”，我写信给他。
And he replied, "Oh, neither are all of us."
他回答说：“哦，我们所有人都不是。”
By this, Karen meant that ethnically he himself wasn't Russian.
凯伦的意思是，从种族上来说，他本人不是俄罗斯人。
And anyway, as they'd already discussed, this whole topic of nationality was messy.
不管怎样，正如他们已经讨论过的，整个国籍话题都很混乱。
And then I had another cigarette, and I wrote, "No, no, no, you're Russian, and he's not." And he wrote, "Whatever."
然后我又吸了一根烟，我写道：“不，不，不，你是俄罗斯人，而他不是。”他写道：“无论如何。”
And then I smoked another cigarette.
然后我又抽了一根烟。
And then I said, OK, no. I'm not going to leave it this time.
然后我说，好吧，不。这次我不会离开它。
And I wrote him everything.
我把一切都写给他了。
But this time, I was like, "No, no. Let's get it straight.
但这一次，我想，“不，不。让我们说清楚吧。
We are Ukrainians." And I was like, "Now, please let us be Ukrainians because we want to be Ukrainians and we consider ourselves Ukrainians.
我们是乌克兰人。”我当时想，“现在，请让我们成为乌克兰人，因为我们想成为乌克兰人，我们认为自己是乌克兰人。
And you are not.
而你不是。
You're Russian."
你是俄罗斯人。”
Everything Nadia had kept bottled up for the last few months, for the last dozen years, came pouring out.
娜迪亚在过去几个月、过去十几年里一直压抑着的一切，都倾泻而出。
And then I felt, now, I can't stop.
然后我觉得，现在，我无法停止。
Now, I cannot stop.
现在，我无法停下来。
I have to get it out of my system.
我必须把它从我的系统中删除。
Do you have those texts?
你有那些文字吗？
Nadia I think, yes.
娜迪亚我想，是的。
Yes.
是的。
She pulls up the photo from Nice and her first text.
她拿出尼斯的照片和她的第一条短信。
And then I go, "I really don't want to fight with you, but I really need to make it clear." And then I said, "Remember in Moscow, and you were really aggressive about Luka being in Ukrainian school and insisting that he must speak on the great Russian language, to read Tolstoy, and the greatest Russian culture, and all that?
然后我说：“我真的不想和你吵架，但我真的需要说清楚。”然后我说，“还记得在莫斯科的时候，你对卢卡在乌克兰学校上学的事情非常咄咄逼人，并坚持要求他必须讲伟大的俄语、阅读托尔斯泰和最伟大的俄罗斯文化等等？
And Ukrainian, pathetic agricultural country, has no culture, and you can't stand that your son grows up in this pathetic place?
而乌克兰这个可怜的农业国家，没有文化，你不能忍受你的儿子在这个可怜的地方长大吗？
And each time after holidays, Luka were coming with his brainwashed that he's not Ukrainian.
每次假期结束后，卢卡都会被洗脑，认为自己不是乌克兰人。
And Ukrainian is all bullshit and not his.
乌克兰语全是废话，不是他的。
She brings up the Crimea vacation, the globe--
她提到了克里米亚假期、地球——
The fucking globe [LAUGHING] for Crimea.
克里米亚的该死的地球仪[笑]。
And I was depressed because of this for several months.
我也因此郁闷了好几个月。
I even had to go to a psychologist to talk about it.
我什至不得不去找心理学家谈论这个问题。
I asked Karen to read his side of the conversation.
我请凯伦读一下他的谈话内容。
She sent me a long message saying, "We are Ukrainians.
她给我发了一条很长的信息说：“我们是乌克兰人。
We were always Ukrainians, and we will always be Ukrainians.
我们一直是乌克兰人，也将永远是乌克兰人。
In our home, Russians are killers, and it will be so until the war ends." And I was like, "OK, but I can recall our first-- when we first met with you in Kyiv." She made jokes of Ukrainian life or Kyiv as a city.
在我们家里，俄罗斯人是杀手，直到战争结束都会如此。”我当时想，“好吧，但我记得我们的第一次——当我们第一次在基辅见到你时。”她拿乌克兰的生活或基辅作为一座城市开玩笑。
She was making fun of some little details.
她在取笑一些小细节。
And I was like, "OK.
我当时想，“好吧。
But remember, it's not just my own problem with this colonial mindset.
但请记住，这不仅仅是我自己的殖民心态问题。
You also had it when you just moved."
你刚搬家的时候也有过。”
They had profoundly different recollections of some of the conversations they'd had early on in their relationship.
他们对恋爱初期的一些谈话有着截然不同的回忆。
Karen remembered Nadia making fun of some aspects of Ukrainian culture.
凯伦记得纳迪亚曾取笑乌克兰文化的某些方面。
Nadia remembered herself delighting in it.
娜迪亚记得自己对此很高兴。
Now, Karen was the one who didn't want to fight.
现在，凯伦才是不想战斗的人。
He texted back.
他回了短信。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN].
[说俄语]。
Interpreter Each of us have our own path, our own traumas, and our own evolution.
我们每个人都有自己的道路、自己的创伤和自己的进化。
12 years of my relationship with you is also 12 years of my relationship with Ukraine-- with all imperial ideas, internal xenophobia.
我与你们的关系也有 12 年，也是我与乌克兰的关系的 12 年——充满了帝国主义思想和内部仇外心理。
So please, don't judge me so harshly.
所以请不要如此严厉地评判我。
But Nadia couldn't stop.
但娜迪亚无法阻止。
Nadia "And I can't do anything with this horrible rage.
纳迪亚：“面对这种可怕的愤怒，我无能为力。
And your son has to live with this mother which hates all Russian in the world and in herself.
你的儿子必须和这位母亲一起生活，她憎恨世界上所有的俄罗斯人，也憎恨她自己。
So at least please allow him not to be Russian and not to suffer from this.
所以至少请允许他不是俄罗斯人，不要遭受这种痛苦。
That's what we had." And then he's being really sweet.
这就是我们所拥有的。”然后他真的很可爱。
"I know what you feel." Blah, blah, blah.
“我知道你的感受。”巴拉，巴拉，巴拉。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN].
[说俄语]。
Interpreter To which I answer-- "Here, we have approached the most important part.
口译员对此我的回答是——“在这里，我们已经接近了最重要的部分。
Maybe you won't believe this, but every day I think about you and how painful this is.
也许你不会相信，但我每天都会想起你，这是多么痛苦。
I understand how the war and pain cements your Ukrainian patriotism.
我理解战争和痛苦如何巩固你们的乌克兰爱国主义。
And I respect that.
我尊重这一点。
Your personal history is your own business.
你的个人历史是你自己的事。
I won't tell Luka anything.
我不会告诉卢卡任何事情。
He'll come to understand everything himself one day."
总有一天他会自己明白一切。”
And that's it actually.
事实上就是这样。
And I said that we were done.
我说我们已经完成了。
I mean, I said everything I always wanted to.
我的意思是，我说了我一直想说的一切。
Yeah.
是的。
What does it feel like reading this now?
现在读到这篇文章有什么感觉？
I was-- actually, it's much better than I thought.
事实上，这比我想象的要好得多。
I actually thought I was really aggressive.
我其实以为我真的很有攻击性。
Because I really felt-- but it's really cool.
因为我真的感觉到——但这真的很酷。
I don't regret anything I said, not a word.
我不后悔我说过的任何话，一个字也不后悔。
I didn't lose it.
我没有失去它。
Before, all these years, I've been too patient.
以前，这么多年，我实在太有耐心了。
And that's it.
就是这样。
I think he got the point.
我认为他明白了。
It's hard.
这很难。
I mean, I couldn't imagine that it would insult her, and I regret it.
我的意思是，我无法想象这会侮辱她，我很后悔。
And it's hard to not just to [SPEAKING RUSSIAN].
而且很难不只是[说俄语]。
To admit your mistakes.
承认你的错误。
Karen Admit.
凯伦承认。
Yeah.
是的。
It is not even hard to admit those mistakes.
承认这些错误并不难。
It is even harder to realize that you had those mistakes as your mindset for such a long time.
更难意识到你在这么长的时间里一直把这些错误作为你的心态。
Uh.
呃。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Masha Gessen [SPEAKING RUSSIAN]?
玛莎·格森（Masha Gessen）[说俄语]？
I asked him if he wanted to switch to Russian.
我问他是否想改用俄语。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN].
[说俄语]。
Interpreter It wouldn't be easier.
翻译这不会更容易。
OK.
好的。
Either way.
不管怎样。
Karen [SPEAKING RUSSIAN].
凯伦[说俄语]。
This is difficult, you know?
这很难，你知道吗？
A lot of what Nadia remembers from this argument, for us, these were simply theoretical conversations about history.
纳迪亚从这场争论中记住的很多内容，对我们来说，这些只是关于历史的理论对话。
But as it turns out, the very things that me and others were talking about in this way, in this theoretical manner, they are now used as official reasons to justify the catastrophe, the atrocities.
但事实证明，我和其他人以这种方式、以这种理论方式谈论的事情，现在被用作官方理由来为灾难和暴行辩护。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN].
[说俄语]。
Interpreter And these are words that you spoke, that came out of your mouth.
口译员 这些是你说的、从你嘴里说出来的话。
And now, it makes you want to rinse it out with bleach and close it forever.
现在，它让你想用漂白剂冲洗它并永远关闭它。
Now, Karen asked himself why he had taken these ideas for granted, even why he-- a Greek-Jewish-Armenian Russian-- had never questioned speaking the Russian language?
现在，凯伦问自己，为什么他认为这些想法是理所当然的，甚至为什么他——一个希腊裔犹太裔亚美尼亚裔俄罗斯人——从未质疑过说俄语？
And at that time, for the first time in my life-- I'm like 41 years old.
那时，我人生中第一次——我41岁了。
And this is the first time when I ask myself, "what about me?
这是我第一次问自己：“那我呢？
Why I don't speak any of those languages and why I always answer that I'm Russian to anybody else and to myself."
为什么我不会说任何一种语言，为什么我总是对别人和我自己回答说我是俄罗斯人。”
And also, why had he spent so much time and effort insisting that Nadia and Luka were Russian?
而且，为什么他花这么多时间和精力坚持认为纳迪亚和卢卡是俄罗斯人？
Since now it is a burden for him, I'm like, oh, no. Forget it.
既然现在这对他来说是一种负担，我想，哦，不。算了。
Just leave it.
就留下它吧。
You don't need it anymore.
你不再需要它了。
And let's pretend that you are not Russian at all.
让我们假装你根本不是俄罗斯人。
If it makes your life easier, you don't need to be.
如果它让你的生活更轻松，你就不需要这样做。
No. Sorry.
不，抱歉。
[LAUGHS] I wouldn't prefer that.
[笑]我不喜欢这样。
I can't even imagine it because this is my country, and this is my culture.
我什至无法想象，因为这是我的国家，这是我的文化。
This is my problem also.
这也是我的问题。
This is my drama.
这是我的戏剧。
Because I don't want to hide my identity.
因为我不想隐藏自己的身份。
I don't want to try to escape from the responsibility I do have as a Russian person in this war.
我不想逃避作为俄罗斯人在这场战争中所承担的责任。
So let me sum this up a little bit.
让我总结一下。
You were never accepted as Russian by Russians.
俄罗斯人从未承认你是俄罗斯人。
You live in exile.
你生活在流亡之中。
The Russian government has declared you a foreign agent.
俄罗斯政府已宣布你为外国代理人。
Yes.
是的。
Masha Gessen And you consider yourself Russian?
Masha Gessen 你认为自己是俄罗斯人吗？
Does it sound like a sort of schizophrenia?
这听起来像是一种精神分裂症吗？
[LAUGHS].
[笑]。
Karen is a journalist and an LGBTQ activist-- two things the Russian government hates most.
凯伦是一名记者，也是一名 LGBTQ 活动人士——俄罗斯政府最讨厌的这两件事。
That's why he's been designated a foreign agent.
这就是为什么他被指定为外国特工。
Nadia and Karen both felt better after that Nice fight.
在那场尼斯比赛之后，纳迪亚和凯伦都感觉好多了。
They'd cleared the air.
他们消除了误会。
Nadia felt heard.
娜迪亚感到自己被听到了。
Karen felt like he'd understood something.
凯伦觉得自己好像明白了什么。
For one thing, he understood why Nadia said that she and Luka were Ukrainian and how important that was.
一方面，他理解为什么纳迪亚说她和卢卡是乌克兰人，以及这有多重要。
Their relationship improved.
他们的关系有所改善。
And also, a new Nadia had emerged-- one who told people what she really thought-- except when she didn't.
而且，一个新的纳迪亚已经出现——她会告诉人们她真正的想法——除非她不这样做。
Number eight-- the fight that wasn't.
第八——那不是一场战斗。
Nadia comes from a long line of diplomats.
纳迪亚出身于外交官世家。
Her grandparents were diplomats, and her mother really hoped Nadia would be a diplomat too, which brings me to Nadia's stepfather-- the man who was present for most of Nadia's childhood.
她的祖父母是外交官，她的母亲真的希望纳迪亚也能成为一名外交官，这让我想起了纳迪亚的继父——纳迪亚童年的大部分时间都在他身边。
Nadia adored him.
纳迪亚很崇拜他。
She calls him Dad.
她叫他爸爸。
She never called Alex that.
她从来没有这样称呼过亚历克斯。
Long after he and Nadia's mother divorced, they stayed in touch.
他和纳迪亚的母亲离婚很久之后，他们仍然保持联系。
As Nadia became an adult, they spoke less often.
随着纳迪亚成年，他们说话的次数越来越少。
But every time he called, it was like they'd seen each other just yesterday.
但每次他打电话的时候，他们就像昨天才见过一样。
And he was also a diplomat.
他也是一名外交官。
In fact, he still is a diplomat, a Russian diplomat who is still working in a high post.
事实上，他仍然是一名外交官，一名仍在高位任职的俄罗斯外交官。
And after the war started, and they fled to Lisbon, and she got Alex out of Ukraine, Nadia was starting to dread her dad's phone call-- the call she'd always looked forward to.
战争开始后，他们逃到了里斯本，她把亚历克斯带出了乌克兰，纳迪亚开始害怕她父亲的电话——她一直期待的电话。
Her birthday's at the end of May, and he always called.
她的生日是五月底，他总是打电话来。
This time, she'd have to assume that their conversation was monitored.
这一次，她必须假设他们的谈话被监听了。
So if she told him what had been happening for her since the war began.
所以如果她告诉他自战争开始以来她所发生的事情。
Even if all he did was listen, that could get him in trouble.
即使他只是倾听，也可能会给他带来麻烦。
But what if he didn't just listen?
但如果他不听怎么办？
What if he said the sort of thing a man in his position is expected to say-- defending the invasion, justifying it.
如果他说的是处于他位置的人应该说的话——为入侵辩护，为入侵辩护，结果会怎样呢？
She was scared he'd say something unforgivable.
她害怕他会说出一些不可原谅的话。
She was scared she'd say something that would get him in trouble.
她害怕自己说出的话会给他带来麻烦。
She was also maybe scared she'd say nothing and regret it.
她也可能害怕自己什么也没说并后悔。
He's quite old, so he'll be retired soon.
他年纪已经很大了，很快就要退休了。
So he's got, like, a few years left.
所以他还有几年的时间。
And he achieved what he was always wanted since he was a child.
他也实现了他从小就一直想要的东西。
And I mean, it's everything he's got-- it's really-- I know it's important for him.
我的意思是，这就是他所拥有的一切——这真的——我知道这对他来说很重要。
And it's his job, and he can't do anything else.
而且这是他的工作，他无能为力。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I really-- I don't doubt that he's a fantastic person.
我真的——我毫不怀疑他是一个很棒的人。
And whatever happens to him, I just hope he's going to be all right.
无论他发生什么，我只希望他一切都好。
I just really don't want to hurt him, and I feel really sorry for him.
我只是真的不想伤害他，我真的很对不起他。
And I think he is in a really complicated position.
我认为他的处境非常复杂。
And I think he's really sorry and he's suffering in a way.
我认为他真的很抱歉并且在某种程度上他正在遭受痛苦。
He didn't call.
他没有打电话。
I thought this would be a story about how war makes everything black and white.
我以为这会是一个关于战争如何让一切黑白分明的故事。
It does.
确实如此。
I've seen it.
我见过。
And everyone you heard from in this episode has seen it.
您在本集中听到的每个人都已经看到了。
Long-suppressed disagreements become fights to the death.
长期压抑的分歧变成了你死我活的斗争。
Fuzzy lines turn into firm boundaries.
模糊的线条变成了明确的边界。
Nothing is left unsaid.
没有什么是不说的。
It's true.
这是真的。
Most Ukrainians I have interviewed in a year and a half of covering the war have heartbreaking stories about their relationships with family in Russia.
我在一年半的报道战争过程中采访过的大多数乌克兰人都有关于他们与俄罗斯家人关系的令人心碎的故事。
But who was I kidding?
但我在跟谁开玩笑呢？
When are family conflicts ever resolved decisively?
家庭矛盾什么时候才能得到彻底解决？
When are family stories ever black and white?
家庭故事什么时候变得黑白分明了？
Nadia, for instance, could have a weeks-long fight with her mom about giving less than $100 to the Russian government.
例如，纳迪亚 (Nadia) 可能会因为向俄罗斯政府捐款不足 100 美元而与妈妈发生长达数周的争执。
She contemplated throwing her father out of the car for being unable to face the war crimes in Bucha.
她考虑将父亲扔出车外，因为她无法面对布查的战争罪行。
She flew into a rage in response to the way Karen captioned a photo of Luka.
凯伦为卢卡的照片添加标题后，她勃然大怒。
But she wasn't going to say a word to her stepdad who is actually serving the Russian state?
但她不会对她实际上为俄罗斯国家服务的继父说一句话？
An epilogue-- the Russian-Ukrainian war has been going on for more than 500 days.
尾声——俄乌战争已经持续了500多天。
Nadia, Sophie, and Luka are still living in Lisbon.
纳迪亚、索菲和卢卡仍然住在里斯本。
Karen is in Berlin.
凯伦在柏林。
A few weeks ago, the Russian government added him to its list of extremists and terrorists.
几周前，俄罗斯政府将他列入极端分子和恐怖分子名单。
This means that he will be arrested if he ever tries to go back to Russia.
这意味着如果他试图返回俄罗斯就会被捕。
When the announcement came out, Nadia called him and said, "You're one of us now." Alex and Lena, Nadia's father and Sophie's mother returned to Ukraine after Russian troops were pushed back from Kyiv.
当消息发布后，纳迪亚打电话给他说：“你现在是我们中的一员了。”俄罗斯军队从基辅撤退后，亚历克斯和莉娜、纳迪亚的父亲和索菲的母亲返回乌克兰。
They've fixed up the house and taken the blankets off the windows.
他们已经把房子修好了，也把窗户上的毯子拿掉了。
They're still very much in love.
他们仍然非常相爱。
The cats weathered their absence fine.
猫们安然度过了他们的缺席。
The rest of this epilogue is going to be about Luka because most of these fights were about him.
尾声的其余部分将是关于卢卡的，因为大多数战斗都是关于他的。
Luka turned 12 earlier this year.
卢卡今年早些时候就满 12 岁了。
He wanted to get a Harry Potter cake to bring to school.
他想买一个哈利波特蛋糕带到学校。
Then Nadia suggested they get a blue and yellow one instead-- the colors of the Ukrainian flag.
然后纳迪亚建议他们买一件蓝色和黄色的衣服——乌克兰国旗的颜色。
And he agreed.
他同意了。
When Luka heard that I was interviewing his parents, he volunteered to talk to me.
当卢卡听说我正在采访他的父母时，他自愿与我交谈。
But when I asked him about specific conflicts from the past, the vyshyvanka fight, the Crimean vacation fight, the globe fight, he drew a blank.
但当我问他过去的具体冲突、维希万卡之战、克里米亚假期之战、全球之战时，他一片空白。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN].
[说俄语]。
Interpreter I mean, I remember.
翻译 我的意思是，我记得。
It was on one of my birthdays that I was given a globe.
在我的一个生日那天，我收到了一个地球仪。
But it was kind of broke--
但它有点破了——
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN].
[说俄语]。
Interpreter I don't know.
翻译我不知道。
I don't remember any globe.
我不记得有任何地球仪。
The Ukrainian flag cake was Nadia's idea, but Luka has been standing up for the Ukrainian flag in his own way.
乌克兰国旗蛋糕是娜迪亚的主意，但卢卡一直在以自己的方式捍卫乌克兰国旗。
He plays video games online with other Russian-speaking kids.
他和其他说俄语的孩子一起在线玩电子游戏。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN].
[说俄语]。
Interpreter There is a game there where you have to draw.
翻译员那里有一个游戏，你必须画画。
And there are people on there.
而且那里还有人。
Some of them draw the Russian flag, and somebody draws the Ukrainian flag.
他们中有的画俄罗斯国旗，有的画乌克兰国旗。
And then at some point, in the chat room, they argue why Ukraine is better, why Russia will win, and so on and so forth.
然后在某个时候，在聊天室里，他们争论为什么乌克兰更好，为什么俄罗斯会赢，等等。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]?
[说俄语]？
I asked him, "Do you participate in these arguments?"
我问他：“你参与这些争论吗？”
No. [SPEAKING RUSSIAN].
不。[说俄语]。
Interpreter If I get a chance, I'm 100%.
口译员 如果我有机会，我百分百愿意。
I'm fighting for Ukraine for real.
我真的在为乌克兰而战。
And now, I consider myself 100% Ukrainian.
现在，我认为自己是 100% 乌克兰人。
I wouldn't feel comfortable living in the same country as Putin.
和普京生活在同一个国家我会感到不舒服。
A year and a half ago, so many things about Luka and his life were contested.
一年半前，关于卢卡和他的生活的很多事情都受到了争议。
Where was he going to go if a war began and for how long?
如果战争爆发，他会去哪里以及持续多久？
Who was he-- Russian, Ukrainian, both, German?
他是谁——俄罗斯人、乌克兰人、两者兼而有之、德国人？
Now, he's Ukrainian-- but a Ukrainian who plans to live in Germany when he grows up.
现在，他是乌克兰人，但计划长大后住在德国。
If he has children, he will raise them speaking Ukrainian.
如果他有孩子，他会用乌克兰语抚养他们。
He told me, though, that he may need to hire a tutor.
不过，他告诉我，他可能需要聘请一名导师。
Masha Gessen is a staff writer for The New Yorker and the author of several books, including the Future is History.
玛莎·格森 (Masha Gessen) 是《纽约客》的特约撰稿人，也是多本书的作者，其中包括《未来即历史》。
Masha's story in today's program was produced by Valerie Kipnis and some Russian journalists-- Andrey Borzenko and Lika Kremer.
今天节目中玛莎的故事由瓦莱丽·基普尼斯（Valerie Kipnis）和一些俄罗斯记者安德烈·博尔岑科（Andrey Borzenko）和利卡·克莱默（Lika Kremer）制作。
They're co-founders of the podcast company Libo/Libo which makes podcasts in Russian.
他们是播客公司 Libo/Libo 的联合创始人，该公司制作俄语播客。
This story is a co-production with them, our first.
这个故事是我们与他们联合制作的，也是我们的第一个故事。
Their website libolibo.me.
他们的网站 libolibo.me。
The people who put together today's program include Bim Adewunmi, James Bennett II, Zoe Chace, Michael Comite, Aviva DeKornfeld, Cassie Howley, Seth Lind, Stowe Nelson, Ryan Rumery, Alissa Shipp, Ike Sriskandarajah, Marisa Robertson-Texter, Matt Tierney, Nancy Updike, Diane Wu.
今天节目的制作人包括 Bim Adewunmi、James Bennett II、Zoe Chace、Michael Comite、Aviva DeKornfeld、Cassie Howley、Seth Lind、Stowe Nelson、Ryan Rumery、Alissa Shipp、Ike Sriskandarajah、Marisa Robertson-Texter、Matt Tierney、Nancy Updike、Diane Wu。
Our Managing Editor is Sarah Abdurrahman.
我们的总编辑是萨拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sarah Abdurrahman)。
Our Senior Editor is David Kestenbaum.
我们的高级编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。
Our Executive Editor is Emanuel Berry.
我们的执行编辑是伊曼纽尔·贝里。
Special thanks today to Misha Galkin and Mark Kipnis, who you heard doing English voiceovers.
今天特别感谢 Misha Galkin 和 Mark Kipnis，你们听到他们做英语配音。
Pyotr Ruzavin, Sofi Pashkual and her mom, Yelena Vernigora, Yana Mandrikina, and Stephen Steinberg.
彼得·鲁扎文 (Pyotr Ruzavin)、索菲·帕什库尔 (Sofi Pashkual) 和她的妈妈、叶莲娜·维尔尼戈拉 (Yelena Vernigora)、亚娜·曼德里基纳 (Yana Mandrikina) 和斯蒂芬·斯坦伯格 (Stephen Steinberg)。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。
You can stream our archive of over 800 episodes for absolutely free.
您可以完全免费地观看我们的 800 多集档案。
Also, we have on there now new merch, including genuinely wonderful Torey Mala-T-shirts.
此外，我们现在还有新商品，包括真正精彩的 Torey Mala-T 恤。
Take a look-- you'll see what I'm talking about.
看一下——你就会明白我在说什么。
Again, thisamericanlife.org.
再说一次，thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Special thanks as always to our program's confounder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地特别感谢我们项目的创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
He told me recently, "That's it.
他最近告诉我：“就是这样。
No more pasta.
不再有面食了。
No more rewatching The Godfather.
再也不用重看《教父》了。
No more gabagool."
不再有加巴古尔了。”
No, no, no. I'm German.
不，不，不。我是德国人。
I'm definitely German.
我绝对是德国人。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。