806: I Can't Quit You, Baby - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #806 | July 28, 2023 806: I Can't Quit You, Baby Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 806 集 | 2023 年 7 月 28 日 806：我不能离开你，宝贝 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
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如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Sean Cole Late last year, I got some not-so-great health news that kind of scared the hell out of me.
序言：序言 肖恩·科尔 去年年底，我收到了一些不太好的健康消息，这让我吓坏了。
Basically, I was diagnosed with mild emphysema, lung disease, and two-- what they're calling small, benign nodules.
基本上，我被诊断患有轻度肺气肿、肺部疾病和两种——他们所说的小良性结节。
One on each lung.
每个肺各一个。
It's like scar tissue.
就像疤痕组织一样。
I'm trying to focus on the words mild, small, and benign.
我试着把注意力集中在“温和”、“小”和“良性”这些词上。
The cause wasn't mysterious.
原因并不神秘。
I'd been a daily cigarette smoker for about 35 years.
我每天吸烟已有大约 35 年了。
It used to be a pack a day when I was younger, sometimes more.
我年轻的时候一天一包，有时甚至更多。
I'd cut it down to maybe a half or a third of that later on.
稍后我会把它减少到一半或三分之一。
And I'd been meaning to quit for a long time.
我很早就想放弃了。
But I just never tried to, not really.
但我只是从来没有尝试过，没有真正尝试过。
And now it felt like I had no choice, which, before I tell you what happened next, I feel like I should explain what a huge change that was going to be.
现在感觉我别无选择，在我告诉你接下来发生的事情之前，我觉得我应该解释一下这将是一个多么巨大的变化。
I always say I started smoking when I was 15 and started inhaling when I was 16.
我总是说我15岁时开始吸烟，16岁时开始吸气。
Partly, I just wanted to be like the people in the British TV dramas I was watching on PBS, pulling these perfect, little, white cylinders out of silver cases that snapped shut.
部分原因是，我只是想像我在 PBS 上观看的英国电视剧中的人一样，将这些完美的白色小圆柱体从突然关闭的银色盒子中拉出来。
I remember I painted an empty metal Band-Aid container light blue and kept my Salem menthols in there, puffing at them in my parents' driveway.
我记得我把一个空的金属创可贴容器涂成了浅蓝色，然后把我的塞勒姆薄荷糖放在里面，在我父母的车道上吸着它们。
In my 30s and 40s, I was the guy in the friend group that always had cigarettes.
在我30多岁和40多岁的时候，我是朋友圈里总是抽烟的人。
I'd smoke during the shortest of walks, like from this office to the hotel bar across the street.
我会在最短的步行路程中吸烟，比如从办公室到街对面的酒店酒吧。
I'd smoke after a 10-mile training run for a half marathon.
我会在半程马拉松 10 英里训练后吸烟。
You smoke in your car, someone would ask.
有人会问，你在车里抽烟吗？
And I'd say, yeah, that's why I bought it.
我会说，是的，这就是我买它的原因。
Whenever I imagined myself stranded in the woods or on a life raft in the middle of the ocean, the panic I felt was about not having enough cigarettes with me.
每当我想象自己被困在树林里或在大海中央的救生筏上时，我感到的恐慌就是因为我身上没有足够的香烟。
So the prospect of stopping for good always felt like trying to strand myself on purpose, like everything in me opposed it.
因此，永远停下来的前景总是让人感觉像是故意让自己陷入困境，就像我内心的一切都反对它一样。
The emphysema diagnosis was in early November.
肺气肿的诊断是在十一月初。
I figured I'd put off quitting until after Christmas when I didn't have to work for a bit.
我想我应该把辞职推迟到圣诞节后，那时我就不用工作了。
Whenever I went too long without smoking, my cognition would slow down to where I could barely think.
每当我长时间不吸烟时，我的认知就会减慢到几乎无法思考的程度。
December 28, I'll stop, I told myself, and started practically counting down the cigarettes.
12 月 28 日，我要停下来了，我告诉自己，然后开始倒数香烟。
I recorded voice memos through all of this.
我在这一切过程中都录制了语音备忘录。
This one's from December 21, a week before quitting day.
这是 12 月 21 日的照片，戒烟日前一周。
This is one of the last times I'll be sitting here, smoking out the window, looking at the World Trade Tower.
这是我最后一次坐在这里，向窗外抽烟，看着世贸大厦。
[EXHALES] And then I guess going forward, I'll just sit here and-- I don't know-- think or something.
[呼气]然后我想接下来，我会坐在这里——我不知道——思考什么的。
This is how much of a smoker I was.
这就是我吸烟的程度。
I didn't even realize that when you don't smoke, you don't have to go and sit by the window.
我什至没有意识到，当你不吸烟时，你不必去坐在窗边。
But the thing I'm really here to tell you about is how I was planning to quit.
但我真正想告诉你们的是我打算如何戒烟。
I was going to read a book, "the book" for people in my situation.
我打算读一本书，针对与我处境相同的人的“书”。
It's called Allen Carr's Easy Way to Stop Smoking.
这就是艾伦卡尔的简单戒烟方法。
You might have heard of it.
您可能听说过。
It's sold millions and millions of copies.
它已售出数百万份。
It's pretty famous.
这是相当有名的。
A lot of famous people read it and then kvell about it on television.
许多名人读过这本书，然后在电视上对它大吃一惊。
James Spader is a fan.
詹姆斯·斯派德是他的粉丝。
It was so easy.
太容易了。
It was so perfect.
太完美了。
And it was all because of this book.
而这一切都是因为这本书。
Ellen DeGeneres-- Ellen Degeneres The Easy Way to Stop Smoking, Allen Carr wrote it.
艾伦·德杰尼勒斯 (Ellen Degeneres) — 艾伦·卡尔 (Allen Carr) 撰写的《艾伦·德杰尼勒斯戒烟简单方法》。
And everybody who reads the book stops.
每个读这本书的人都会停下来。
And so I stopped.
于是我停了下来。
And I'm so glad I quit because I had a monkey on--
我很高兴我放弃了，因为我有一只猴子——
Ashton Kutcher-- Ashton Kutcher And the great thing is, while you're reading the book, you get to smoke.
阿什顿·库彻（Ashton Kutcher）——阿什顿·库彻（Ashton Kutcher） 最棒的是，当你读这本书的时候，你可以抽烟。
He tells you when to light up.
他告诉你什么时候点灯。
He's like, all right, light one now.
他现在就像，好吧，轻一点。
And you're like, oh, absolutely.
你就像，哦，绝对。
He insists that you keep smoking while you're reading the book.
他坚持要求你在看书的时候继续抽烟。
And then when you finish it, you stop.
然后当你完成它时，你就停下来了。
This is Allen Carr, recorded back in 2005.
这是艾伦·卡尔 (Allen Carr)，录制于 2005 年。
And it will enable any smoker to quit immediately, permanently, and actually enjoy the process.
它将使任何吸烟者能够立即、永久戒烟，并真正享受这个过程。
Before you dismiss my claims, bear in mind that I've been proving them for over 20 years.
在您驳回我的主张之前，请记住，20 多年来我一直在证明这些主张。
That's why my book and global network of clinics are so successful.
这就是为什么我的书和全球诊所网络如此成功。
This book is the only thing that's ever given me a shred of hopefulness about stopping smoking.
这本书是唯一让我对戒烟抱有一丝希望的书。
It literally always felt impossible in the past.
过去总感觉这是不可能的。
And now here's this guy saying that not only would I be able to do it, but actually be happy about it.
现在这个人说我不仅能够做到这一点，而且实际上对此感到高兴。
That's the true measure of success, Allen Carr says, not just stopping, but becoming a happy non-smoker.
艾伦·卡尔说，这才是成功的真正衡量标准，不仅仅是戒烟，而是成为一个快乐的非吸烟者。
I couldn't imagine being happy not smoking.
我无法想象不吸烟会多么幸福。
I couldn't imagine that a bunch of words could get someone to stop feeling an incredibly strong urge, that words alone could make something that seems so impossible actually happen.
我无法想象一堆言语可以让某人停止感受到一种难以置信的强烈冲动，仅凭言语就可以使看似不可能的事情真正发生。
What type of witchery was afoot here in this book?
这本书里发生了什么类型的巫术？
And all the stories in today's show are about that, people casting spells to try to make people completely change their directions in life in some way.
今天节目中的所有故事都是关于这个的，人们施展咒语，试图让人们以某种方式彻底改变他们的生活方向。
Oh, and you get to listen to me try to quit smoking.
哦，你可以听我尝试戒烟。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, The Straw that Broke Joe Camel's Back.
第一幕，压垮骆驼乔的最后一根稻草。
We're actually not sure about that title.
我们实际上不确定这个标题。
There's a couple of others here that we liked.
这里还有其他一些我们喜欢的。
Act One, Can I Still be a Joker and a Midnight Toker?
第一幕，我还能当小丑和午夜小丑吗？
Or this one, Act One, the Unbearable Lighterlessness of Being.
或者这一幕，第一幕，存在中难以忍受的轻者。
Anyway, the book is relatively short and really, really repetitive.
不管怎样，这本书相对较短，而且非常非常重复。
He says you have to follow every instruction to the letter.
他说你必须严格遵守每一条指示。
And the way it works-- Carr says most people who try to convince you not to smoke will tell you the reasons you shouldn't, health risks, all the money you spend, whatever.
卡尔说，大多数试图说服你不要吸烟的人都会告诉你不应该吸烟的原因、健康风险、你花的钱等等。
But he says smokers already know all of that.
但他说吸烟者已经知道这一切。
If any of that actually worked, Allen Carr says, you'd have quit by now.
艾伦·卡尔说，如果其中任何一个真的有效，你现在就已经退出了。
Now what he does instead is the opposite.
现在他所做的却恰恰相反。
He names all of the reasons you give for smoking, all the things you like about it or think it's offering you.
他列出了你吸烟的所有原因、你喜欢吸烟或认为吸烟给你带来的所有好处。
And he carefully explains why every one of those reasons is bogus.
他仔细地解释了为什么这些理由都是假的。
He describes it as a kind of deprogramming, ultimately removing any desire for a cigarette.
他将其描述为一种解除编程，最终消除对香烟的任何渴望。
And a lot of the precepts make a lot of sense.
而且很多戒律都很有意义。
For instance, he says smokers believe that smoking helps them focus and concentrate.
例如，他说吸烟者相信吸烟可以帮助他们集中注意力。
But he says they're just kidding themselves.
但他说他们只是在开玩笑。
That's just an illusion.
那只是一个幻觉。
All smoking does is remove the distraction of nicotine withdrawal.
吸烟的全部作用就是消除尼古丁戒断的干扰。
So you only think it's helping you think better.
所以你只是认为它可以帮助你更好地思考。
There are tons of fallacies like that, he says.
他说，类似的谬论还有很多。
And smokers perpetuate them without even realizing it.
吸烟者甚至在没有意识到的情况下使这些症状永久存在。
This is from the book.
这是书上的。
He says, "smokers claim that the cigarette relaxes them and helps them to handle stressful situations.
他说：“吸烟者声称香烟可以让他们放松，帮助他们应对压力。
But they also claim that it helps them get going in the morning and that it gives them a boost.
但他们也声称，这可以帮助他们早上起床，给他们带来动力。
How can a drug that relaxes you or relieves stress also stimulate you?
一种既能让你放松或缓解压力的药物又怎么能刺激你呢？
This contradiction illustrates the truth about smoking.
这个矛盾说明了吸烟的真相。
The cigarette just doesn't do any of the things we tell ourselves it does."
香烟根本不会做任何我们告诉自己它能做的事情。”
I should say he distinguishes Easyway from just going cold turkey, or what he calls the willpower method.
我应该说，他将 Easyway 与“突然戒掉”或他所说的“意志力方法”区分开来。
Those poor souls aren't real nonsmokers, he says.
他说，那些可怜的人并不是真正的不吸烟者。
They're just smokers who aren't letting themselves smoke.
他们只是不让自己吸烟的吸烟者。
And what kind of life is that?
那是什么样的生活？
Whereas if you have no desire to smoke anymore, you don't need willpower.
而如果你不再想吸烟，你就不需要意志力。
You also won't be irritable or depressed or gain weight or any of the things that, according to most people, make quitting hard.
你也不会出现烦躁、抑郁、体重增加或任何在大多数人看来使戒烟变得困难的事情。
Also, the reported success rate for willpower alone is really low.
此外，据报道，仅依靠意志力的成功率确实很低。
And it depends on who you ask.
这取决于你问的是谁。
But it might be as low as 3% to 5%.
但可能会低至 3% 至 5%。
Cutting down doesn't work, Allen Carr says, because it just makes every cigarette seem that much more precious.
艾伦·卡尔说，减少吸烟量是行不通的，因为它只会让每支香烟都显得更加珍贵。
That's why he says to just smoke as you normally would while you read the book.
这就是为什么他说在你读这本书的时候就像平常一样抽烟。
Also, he really wants you to sit with it.
而且，他真的希望你能坐在一起。
How's the taste?
味道怎么样？
What's it really feel like, going down into your lungs?
进入肺部到底是什么感觉？
And don't even get him started on nicotine replacement therapy.
甚至不要让他开始尼古丁替代疗法。
Patches, gum, all that stuff, that's just going to keep you wanting cigarettes.
贴片、口香糖，所有这些东西，只会让你一直想抽烟。
He'd get into arguments on this point, like this one on Sky TV, with someone from a smoking cessation charity.
他会在这一点上与来自戒烟慈善机构的人发生争论，就像天空电视台的这场争论一样。
It's not nicotine replacement therapy.
这不是尼古丁替代疗法。
It's nicotine maintenance.
这是尼古丁维护。
You're actually giving them nicotine, the drug they're addicted to.
你实际上给了他们尼古丁，这是他们上瘾的药物。
And that keeps their body craving nicotine.
这让他们的身体对尼古丁产生了渴望。
It's absolute nonsense.
这绝对是无稽之谈。
You are giving them nicotine.
你给他们尼古丁。
But it's stepping them down gradually so that they can come off it.
但它正在逐渐让他们下台，以便他们能够摆脱困境。
Can you tell me the proved rates of success on nicotine replace?
您能告诉我尼古丁替代疗法的成功率吗？
That's what the adverts say.
广告上就是这么说的。
It's four times greater.
是原来的四倍。
Four times greater than what?
比什么大四倍？
Four times greater than just using willpower alone.
比单独使用意志力强四倍。
But willpower doesn't work.
但意志力不起作用。
Sarah Ward No, it doesn't--
莎拉·沃德 不，不是——
So it's four times greater than nothing.
所以它比什么都没有强四倍。
Well, and if you-- Sean Cole Allen Carr never had any training in psychology or medicine.
好吧，如果你——肖恩·科尔·艾伦·卡尔从未接受过任何心理学或医学方面的培训。
He says one day, he just realized what a con smoking is, and took things from there, started working with individual clients in the early '80s, then group seminars, then the book, and ultimately, an organization that operates in more than 50 countries around the world.
他说有一天，他才意识到什么是吸烟骗子，并以此为起点，在 80 年代初开始与个人客户合作，然后举办小组研讨会，然后出书，最终建立了一个在全球 50 多个国家/地区开展业务的组织。
For my money, his cred was even better than that of a therapist or a psychiatrist.
在我看来，他的信誉甚至比治疗师或精神科医生还要好。
He was a smoker for about as long as I was, and much heavier, sometimes a hundred cigarettes a day.
他抽烟的时间和我差不多，而且烟瘾更大，有时一天要抽一百支烟。
He had tried to quit a lot of times before hitting upon his method, at which point he just stopped on a dime.
在想到他的方法之前，他曾多次试图放弃，但到了这个时候他就戛然而止了。
If only he'd figured it out way sooner.
如果他早点想明白就好了。
Allen Carr died of lung cancer in 2006.
艾伦·卡尔于 2006 年因肺癌去世。
He hadn't been a smoker for about 20 years.
他已经大约 20 年没有吸烟了。
I felt this growing excitement as I read the book.
当我读这本书时，我感到越来越兴奋。
I was starting to beat out my fear of quitting.
我开始克服对戒烟的恐惧。
At one point I wrote in a notebook, "Allen Carr is right about the taste.
有一次我在笔记本上写道：“艾伦·卡尔关于味道的看法是正确的。
It's foul.
这是犯规的。
Smoke felt bad going down my lungs.
烟顺着肺部流下去，感觉很糟糕。
I think my thinking about smoking has genuinely changed."
我认为我对吸烟的看法确实发生了改变。”
The night before my final day of smoking, I felt like a kid on Christmas Eve Eve, sort of thrilled and wishing the day would just hurry up and get here already.
在我吸烟的最后一天的前一天晚上，我感觉就像一个平安夜的孩子，有点兴奋，希望这一天能快点到达这里。
Allen Carr said this might happen.
艾伦·卡尔说这可能会发生。
The next night, December 27, I smoked my final cigarette, a sort of a ritual built into the process.
第二天晚上，也就是 12 月 27 日，我抽完了最后一支烟，这是抽完烟过程中的一种仪式。
For some reason, I wanted to be outside, walking the neighborhood.
出于某种原因，我想去外面，在附近散步。
I smoked it maybe faster than any cigarette ever, knocked the burning ember off the butt, threw it in somebody's trashcan, and said, out loud, goodbye cigarettes.
我抽它的速度可能比任何香烟都快，把烟蒂上燃烧的余烬敲掉，把它扔进别人的垃圾桶里，然后大声说，再见香烟。
And when I woke up the next day, I wanted a cigarette more than I ever remember wanting one first thing in the morning, which is not what the book says is supposed to happen.
当我第二天醒来时，我比我记忆中早上第一件事更想要一支烟，这不是书上所说的应该发生的事情。
I don't know what I did or didn't do or what exactly went wrong.
我不知道我做了什么或没做什么，也不知道到底出了什么问题。
But suddenly, the way felt anything but easy.
但突然间，我感觉这条路一点也不轻松。
In the book, over and over again, Allen Carr says some version of, the actual physical withdrawal from nicotine is a very mild, slightly empty, insecure feeling.
艾伦·卡尔在书中一遍又一遍地说过，从尼古丁中实际戒断身体是一种非常温和、略显空虚、不安全的感觉。
It's so mild that most smokers don't even notice it throughout their smoking lives.
它非常温和，以至于大多数吸烟者在整个吸烟生涯中都没有注意到它。
I've also heard that the physical withdrawal only lasts three days.
我还听说物理戒断只能持续三天。
Or is it a week?
还是一周？
Or is it three weeks?
还是三个星期？
And after that, it's merely psychological.
在那之后，这只是心理上的。
I've heard the individual cravings last anywhere from three to five minutes and then they pass.
我听说个别的渴望持续三到五分钟，然后就消失了。
All I can say is in my experience, all of this is utter horseshit.
我只能说，根据我的经验，所有这些都是胡说八道。
I don't even understand the concept of individual cravings.
我什至不明白个人渴望的概念。
In my case, withdrawal has meant a constant, crazed yearning that varies in tolerability throughout the day.
就我而言，戒断意味着一种持续不断的、疯狂的渴望，这种渴望在一天中的耐受性有所不同。
This is how I described it a couple of weeks in.
这就是我几周后的描述。
"It's like a worldwide itch, like all of my limbs are phantom limbs, like I swallowed a live animal much larger than me that promptly died.
“这就像一种全世界的痒，就像我的所有四肢都是幻肢，就像我吞下了一只比我大得多的活体动物，但它很快就死了。
And now I have to walk around with it inside of me, soul and all.
现在我必须带着它走来走去，全身心地带着它。
Or it's like opening all these awful, little packages in which there's something I can't see, that painfully stings me.
或者就像打开所有这些可怕的小包裹，里面有一些我看不到的东西，这让我痛苦不已。
And there's no telling how many more I have to open, nor for how long.
而且不知道我还需要打开多少个，也不知道要打开多长时间。
It is the thing I'm thinking about more than any other thing and more than all of the other things." This was on January 13.
这是我比其他任何事情都更想考虑的事情。”这是 1 月 13 日。
I've had a bunch of snacks.
我已经吃了一堆零食了
And nothing makes it better.
没有什么能让事情变得更好。
Literally nothing makes it better.
从字面上看，没有什么能让事情变得更好。
Everything makes-- everything that I do instead of smoking makes me want to smoke more.
我所做的一切而不是吸烟都会让我想抽更多烟。
This is the worst day of the nonsmoking that there's been so far.
这是迄今为止禁烟最糟糕的一天。
Day-- what is it?
日——是什么？
We're now going into day 17.
我们现在进入第 17 天。
I don't fucking know.
我他妈不知道。
I don't know.
我不知道。
They're hard.
他们很难。
They're all hard.
他们都很难。
The thing about thinking something's going to be easy is that when it's ultimately not, it makes it that much harder, like yeah, if I can't do it, I must be an idiot.
认为某件事会很容易的事情是，当它最终并非如此时，它就会变得更加困难，就像是的，如果我做不到，我一定是个白痴。
And thinking back on some of the passages in the book, I felt gaslit, like my lived experience was being questioned.
回想起书中的一些段落，我感到气愤，就像我的生活经历受到了质疑。
This is Allen Carr on a British talk show sometime in the early aughts.
这是艾伦·卡尔 (Allen Carr) 早期在英国脱口秀节目中的表现。
We talk about these terrible withdrawal pangs.
我们谈论这些可怕的戒断痛苦。
You say to somebody, well, where did it hurt you?
你对某人说，好吧，你哪里受伤了？
Where?
在哪里？
Show me.
给我看看。
I can say exactly where.
我可以准确地说出在哪里。
January 18, it's like three weeks in.
1 月 18 日，已经过去三个星期了。
I had this attack.
我遭受了这次袭击。
I was on the corner in my neighborhood, trying to decide whether to go home or go to the bar.
我在附近的拐角处，试图决定是回家还是去酒吧。
I chose the bar.
我选择了酒吧。
And my brain was like, oh, we're walking a bunch.
我的大脑就像，哦，我们正在散步。
Time for a cigarette, huh?
是时候抽根烟了，嗯？
And I said, no, we don't do that anymore.
我说，不，我们不再这样做了。
And my brain was like, what do you mean?
我的大脑就像，你是什么意思？
It's time for a cigarette.
是时候抽支烟了。
And I said, no, it's not.
我说，不，不是。
And then it's like I was physically punched in the solar plexus with something electric that sent a shock up through my face and head.
然后就好像我的太阳神经丛被某种带电的东西击中了，我的脸和头都受到了电击。
I screamed.
我尖叫起来。
crazy.
疯狂的。
I just literally turned to walk in the other direction.
我只是转身朝另一个方向走去。
I just went, fuck, Like fuck.
我只是去，他妈的，就像他妈的。
Oh, my fucking god.
哦，我的天哪。
Well, it better get better at some point.
嗯，最好在某个时候变得更好。
It got worse.
情况变得更糟了。
I've gained weight.
我体重增加了。
I've been drinking more.
我已经喝多了。
I went a month with no nicotine at all and then gave in and started having a nicotine lozenge here and there.
我一个月完全没有尼古丁，然后屈服了，开始到处吃尼古丁含片。
I have about two a day now, which naturally made me relitigate everything Allen Carr had said.
我现在每天大约有两次，这自然让我重新审视艾伦·卡尔所说的一切。
It also made me wonder why wasn't this working for me if it works for so many people.
这也让我想知道，如果这对很多人都有效，为什么对我不起作用。
So I started looking for answers.
所以我开始寻找答案。
And I stumbled across this podcast that was way more revelatory to me about my addiction than anything in the book.
我偶然发现了这个播客，它比书中的任何内容都更能揭示我的毒瘾。
Welcome to The Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到胡伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
You might be familiar with Andrew Huberman.
您可能熟悉安德鲁·休伯曼。
He's kind of a neuroscience rock star now, has a lab at Stanford School of Medicine where he researches neurobiology and ophthalmology.
他现在是一位神经科学摇滚明星，在斯坦福大学医学院设有一个实验室，研究神经生物学和眼科。
But apart from that, he's made it a personal mission to explain how your brain and body work so you can maybe make better choices.
但除此之外，他还把解释你的大脑和身体如何工作作为他的个人使命，这样你也许可以做出更好的选择。
And he has an episode on nicotine, which made me feel like someone had put their hand on my shoulder, looked me in the eye, and said you, Sir, are not insane.
他有一段关于尼古丁的插曲，这让我感觉有人把手放在我的肩膀上，看着我的眼睛，说你，先生，没有疯。
Again, Allen Carr's central premise is that all the things smokers like about smoking, that it relaxes us and focuses us and gives us a boost, Carr says that the only thing we're feeling is just the withdrawal going away.
艾伦·卡尔的中心前提是，吸烟者喜欢吸烟的所有好处，它让我们放松，集中注意力，给我们提振，卡尔说，我们唯一感觉到的就是戒断症状消失。
But according to Huberman, that's not true at all.
但根据休伯曼的说法，事实并非如此。
Scientists have been studying the brain chemistry of this for years, decades.
多年来，科学家们一直在研究这种大脑化学物质。
And just to be super abbreviated about it here-- podcast is two hours long-- nicotine juices up your brain with these three chemicals: dopamine-- you've heard of dopamine, people think it causes pleasure.
在这里简单说一下——播客有两个小时——尼古丁通过这三种化学物质使你的大脑充满活力：多巴胺——你听说过多巴胺，人们认为它会带来快乐。
But it's also the thing that makes you want pleasure.
但这也是让你想要快乐的事情。
It motivates you, makes you strive, pursue.
它激励你，让你努力，追求。
Acetylcholine, which I had never heard of, helps you focus, come up with ideas, plus-- this is weird-- you have acetylcholine receptors on your muscles too, which Huberman says could explain why some people feel more physically relaxed on nicotine-- and then epinephrine, which you could just call adrenaline.
我从来没有听说过乙酰胆碱，它可以帮助你集中注意力，提出想法，而且——这很奇怪——你的肌肉上也有乙酰胆碱受体，胡伯曼说这可以解释为什么有些人在尼古丁和肾上腺素的作用下感觉身体更放松，然后肾上腺素，你可以称之为肾上腺素。
So when Allen Carr says the nicotine itself doesn't give you a boost-- it gives you a boost.
因此，当艾伦·卡尔说尼古丁本身不会给你带来刺激时，它却会给你带来刺激。
And when you put all of that together--
当你把所有这些放在一起时——
We now have a very clear picture.
我们现在有了一个非常清晰的画面。
Reward pathways are turned on.
奖励途径已开启。
Attention is turned on.
注意力已开启。
Alertness is turned on.
警觉性已开启。
You feel better than you felt a few minutes ago.
你感觉比几分钟前好多了。
Your blood pressure is up.
你的血压升高了。
Your heart rate is up.
你的心率上升了。
Your preparedness for thinking is elevated as well.
你的思考准备也得到了提高。
And yet your body is somewhat relaxed.
然而你的身体却有些放松。
That's a very interesting state of mind and body-- interesting because it's somewhat ideal for cognitive work.
这是一种非常有趣的身心状态——有趣是因为它对于认知工作来说有点理想。
If you were going to sit down and work on a book or you were going to sit down and try and figure out a hard math problem or you're going to write a letter that's been really challenging for you to write or maybe that you're really excited to write but that you've been slow to get out the door for whatever reason here-- I'm talking about my own habits of procrastination-- well, that state of being very alert, but your body being relaxed, is almost, if not the optimal state for getting mental work done.
如果你要坐下来写一本书，或者你要坐下来尝试解决一个困难的数学问题，或者你要写一封信，这封信对你来说真的很有挑战性，或者你可能真的很兴奋写信，但无论出于什么原因，你一直很慢地走出门——我说的是我自己的拖延习惯——好吧，那种非常警觉，但你的身体放松的状态，即使不是进行脑力工作的最佳状态，也几乎是。完成了。
We're talking about one molecule, nicotine, found in plants like tomatoes and potatoes and the tobacco plant, one molecule that can trigger activation of all the circuits for focus and motivation in one fell swoop.
我们谈论的是一种分子，尼古丁，存在于西红柿、土豆和烟草等植物中，这种分子可以一下子触发所有集中注意力和动力回路的激活。
That is remarkable.
这是非常了不起的。
When I got in touch with Huberman and we sat down for a conversation, he said this stuff was obvious to him the first time he smoked a cigarette.
当我与休伯曼取得联系并坐下来交谈时，他说当他第一次抽烟时，这些东西对他来说是显而易见的。
He was 14, same time he had his first cup of black coffee.
14 岁那年，他喝了第一杯黑咖啡。
I thought that was about as good as it gets until I took my first drag off a cigarette.
我以为这已经是最好的了，直到我第一次吸了一口烟。
And then I realized, wow, wow, wow, nicotine just makes everything look a little different-- feel focused and relaxed.
然后我意识到，哇，哇，哇，尼古丁让一切看起来都有点不同——感觉专注和放松。
That's a very hard combo for most people to just drop themselves into.
对于大多数人来说，这是一个非常困难的组合。
Unfortunately, nicotine also has a lot of harmful side effects.
不幸的是，尼古丁也有很多有害的副作用。
It constricts blood flow, can cause heart problems.
它会限制血液流动，可能导致心脏问题。
And just to say the whole second half of the podcast is about how incredibly bad tobacco is for you.
只是想说，播客的整个后半部分都是关于烟草对你有多么糟糕。
Huberman doesn't smoke anymore or use any kind of nicotine.
胡伯曼不再吸烟或使用任何尼古丁。
I ran him through some of Allen Carr's claims about nicotine.
我向他讲述了艾伦·卡尔关于尼古丁的一些说法。
And he did give me his take on them, although warily.
他确实向我表达了他对这些问题的看法，尽管他很谨慎。
I have to be careful because I don't want to discourage anyone from using a resource, like this book, that could help them move away from an unhealthy practice.
我必须小心，因为我不想阻止任何人使用像这本书这样的资源，这可以帮助他们摆脱不健康的做法。
Sure, sure.
当然，当然。
Andrew Huberman So I don't want to undermine his efforts because I think that the effort is a noble and important one.
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）所以我不想破坏他的努力，因为我认为这种努力是崇高而重要的。
But--
但是——
He says Allen Carr's right, that you can get so dependent on nicotine that you don't derive any benefit anymore and just smoke so you can feel normal.
他说艾伦·卡尔是对的，你可能会变得如此依赖尼古丁，以至于你不再获得任何好处，而只是吸烟，这样你才能感觉正常。
That can happen with any addictive drug.
任何成瘾药物都可能发生这种情况。
But he says there are tons of studies supporting the idea that nicotine helps with focus.
但他表示，有大量研究支持尼古丁有助于集中注意力的观点。
And no, it doesn't curb your stress.
不，它并不能减轻你的压力。
But it might make you better able to handle stress because you're more keyed up and vigilant.
但这可能会让你更好地应对压力，因为你会更加紧张和警惕。
So if the central premise of the book is flawed and nicotine can do all of these enjoyable, useful things--
因此，如果这本书的中心前提有缺陷，而尼古丁可以做所有这些令人愉快、有用的事情——
Why do you think, if you were to conjecture, would this system that didn't work for me, per se, work for so many people when--
如果你猜想的话，你认为为什么这个本身对我不起作用的系统会对这么多人起作用，当——
I was thinking about that.
我正在考虑这个。
I think I know why.
我想我知道为什么。
So from a neurobio-- I look at everything through the lens of biology, much to the discomfort of people close to me.
因此，从神经生物学角度来看，我通过生物学的视角来看待一切，这让我身边的人感到不舒服。
But I can say that the book did a very interesting thing.
但我可以说这本书做了一件非常有趣的事情。
I have to give him credit.
我必须给予他信任。
What he did is, he tried to bypass all the deeper biology of dopamine-acetylcholine addiction, et cetera.
他所做的是，他试图绕过多巴胺乙酰胆碱成瘾等所有更深层次的生物学。
And what he did was, he said you've got a forebrain.
他所做的是，他说你有前脑。
Your forebrain can tell itself stories.
你的前脑可以给自己讲故事。
By telling itself stories, you can set context.
通过给自己讲故事，你可以设定背景。
So let's tell yourself a story.
那么让我们给自己讲一个故事。
And the story is this.
故事是这样的。
Withdrawal doesn't really exist.
提款实际上并不存在。
Or it exists but nicotine--
或者它存在但尼古丁——
--the biology of nicotine doesn't really exist.
——尼古丁的生物学原理实际上并不存在。
And when you feel uncomfortable, that's-- in other words, he used the lack of knowledge about the way it really works, in the reader, to trick the reader into tricking themselves into bypassing what would potentially be a much more complicated process.
当你感到不舒服时，换句话说，他利用读者对它真正运作方式的缺乏了解来欺骗读者，让他们绕过一个可能更加复杂的过程。
Now for some people-- and apparently, celebrities-- it worked for them.
现在对于一些人——显然是名人——来说，它对他们有用。
But what if I came along with just the tiniest bit of knowledge to the contrary?
但如果我只掌握了一点点相反的知识呢？
Or what if someone like you has an experience to the contrary?
或者，如果像您这样的人有相反的经历怎么办？
Well then bam, you're right back in square one.
那么，砰，你又回到了第一个方格。
I guess it just doesn't work for me.
我想这对我来说不起作用。
Or there's something wrong with me.
或者我有什么问题。
Something wrong with me.
我有问题。
That's what I'd been feeling like.
这就是我一直以来的感受。
And that's sort of endemic to the method, like if it doesn't work, it's because you didn't follow all of the instructions.
这是该方法特有的情况，就像如果它不起作用，那是因为您没有遵循所有说明。
Or you didn't understand part of it.
或者你没理解其中的一部分。
Read it again.
再读一遍。
Or call us.
或者致电我们。
Or attend the live seminar.
或参加现场研讨会。
In one edition of the book, Allen Carr writes that if you're thinking I'm still craving cigarettes after reading it, then quote, "you are being very stupid.
艾伦·卡尔在该书的一个版本中写道，如果你认为读完这本书后我仍然想抽烟，那么请引用：“你太愚蠢了。
How can you claim I want to be a non-smoker and then say I want a cigarette?
你怎么能说我想成为一个不吸烟者，然后又说我想抽烟呢？
That's a contradiction.
这是一个矛盾。
If you say I want a cigarette, you're saying I want to be a smoker.
如果你说我想要一支香烟，你就是在说我想成为一名吸烟者。
Nonsmokers don't want to smoke cigarettes.
不吸烟者不想吸烟。
You already know what you really want to be.
你已经知道你真正想成为什么。
So stop punishing yourself."
所以别再惩罚自己了。”
Having this information, knowing what nicotine was and is no longer doing to me, was comforting because I was like, it's not in my imagination.
有了这些信息，知道尼古丁对我过去和现在不再有什么作用，我感到很安慰，因为我想，这不在我的想象中。
I wish I'd known all this before I'd stopped, that I'd had more of a map of the landscape, instead of just pretending I wasn't even on the continent.
我希望在停下来之前我就知道这一切，希望我能有一张更多的风景地图，而不是假装我根本不在这片大陆上。
This was March 31, the day after I talked with Huberman.
这是 3 月 31 日，也就是我与休伯曼交谈后的第二天。
It's three months in.
已经三个月了
I've been trying to get dressed for-- I don't know, like 10 or 15 minutes.
我已经尝试穿好衣服了——我不知道，大约有 10 或 15 分钟。
Everything's just a little bit harder since I stopped smoking.
自从我戒烟后，一切都变得有点困难了。
I'm slower.
我比较慢
I'm slower.
我比较慢
And I'll forget-- I mean, supposedly it's good for-- nicotine is good for working memory, meaning-- why did I come into the kitchen again?
我会忘记——我的意思是，据说尼古丁对工作记忆有好处，意思是——为什么我又进了厨房？
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
And I've no working memory anymore.
我已经没有工作记忆了。
And so it takes me forever to do simple things.
所以我要花很长时间才能做简单的事情。
And they're not as-- fun?
而且它们并不那么——有趣？
That's not the word for getting dressed.
这不是形容穿衣服的词。
But they're not-- it just feels like-- everything feels a little bit like a chore.
但他们并不——只是感觉——一切都感觉有点像一件苦差事。
Oh, goodness.
哦，天哪。
There have been lots of news stories about Allen Carr's Easyway.
关于艾伦·卡尔的 Easyway 有很多新闻报道。
He was interviewed a ton in the UK when he was alive.
他在世时在英国接受了大量采访。
And the people who took over the organization after him have done a lot of press.
在他之后接管该组织的人做了很多新闻报道。
But looking high and low, I hadn't seen anyone question the scientific accuracy of the method, even though most of the biology Huberman talks about has been known for a little while.
但从高处和低处看，我没有看到有人质疑该方法的科学准确性，尽管休伯曼谈论的大部分生物学已经为人所知有一段时间了。
So either I'm missing something, which happens a lot, or nobody's ever raised this particular issue with them before.
因此，要么我遗漏了一些东西（这种情况经常发生），要么以前没有人向他们提出过这个特定问题。
So he'll be there.
所以他会在那里。
I did actually pour you a cup of--
我确实给你倒了一杯——
Oh, that's fine Thank you.
哦，那好吧，谢谢。
Sean Cole So I sat down with John Dicey, Allen Carr's successor.
肖恩·科尔 因此，我与艾伦·卡尔的继任者约翰·戴西进行了交谈。
He's the global CEO and senior facilitator of Easyway now.
他现在是 Easyway 的全球首席执行官和高级协调员。
He also took the seminar himself to quit smoking, and says he was so enthralled by how well it worked that he, quote, unquote, "hassled and harangued Allen Carr to let him get involved."
他还亲自参加了这个研讨会来戒烟，并表示他对它的效果非常着迷，以至于他“苦苦哀求艾伦·卡尔让他参与其中”。
They butted heads sometimes.
他们有时会发生冲突。
But John really considers Carr to be a genius.
但约翰确实认为卡尔是个天才。
I asked him if they'd ever talked about brain chemistry when Carr was alive.
我问他卡尔在世时他们是否谈论过大脑化学。
He said they had, although--
他说他们有，尽管——
He wasn't really interested in the science side--
他对科学方面并不真正感兴趣——
He wasn't?
他不是吗？
John Dicey No, I think he-- neither am I, really.
约翰·戴西 不，我想他——我也不是，真的。
Really?
真的吗？
John Dicey I've got to say, it's one of those things-- I don't really think it has much to bring to the table, if that makes sense.
约翰·戴西（John Dicey） 我必须说，这是其中之一——我真的不认为它有太多可以讨论的内容，如果这有意义的话。
Because he talked-- he would say that he was the world's leading expert on quitting smoking.
因为他会说他是世界领先的戒烟专家。
Yes.
是的。
Sean Cole You're smiling as I say that.
肖恩·科尔：当我这么说时，你微笑着。
[LAUGHS] So he wouldn't-- as the world's leading expert in quitting-- self-professed world's leading expert in quitting smoking-- be necessarily curious about that stuff?
[笑] 那么他——作为世界领先的戒烟专家——自称是世界领先的戒烟专家——不一定会对这些东西感到好奇吗？
Yeah, I think he was busy doing other things.
是的，我认为他正忙着做其他事情。
So in terms of the Easyway method.
所以就 Easyway 方法而言。
It's now being applied to, I think it's 15 or 16 different addictions or issues.
我认为它现在被应用于 15 或 16 种不同的成瘾或问题。
There's the easy way to stop drinking, the easy weigh, W-E-I-G-H, to lose weight.
有一种简单的戒酒方法，简单的称重方法，W-E-I-G-H，可以减肥。
There's one about being addicted to your phone-- lots of things.
其中之一是对手机上瘾——很多事情。
I should say an updated version of the book, different from the one I read, addresses brain science for the first time.
我应该说，这本书的更新版本与我读过的版本不同，第一次涉及脑科学。
But it's very selective.
但这是非常有选择性的。
And it still claims nobody's ever had any pleasure or benefit from nicotine.
它还声称没有人从尼古丁中获得过任何乐趣或好处。
I started taking John Dicey through what I'd learned from Andrew Huberman, the research that contradicts what's in the book, and that might help explain why, for a lot of people, it's not going to be easy to walk away from smoking.
我开始向约翰·戴西介绍我从安德鲁·胡伯曼那里学到的东西，这项研究与书中的内容相矛盾，这可能有助于解释为什么对很多人来说戒烟并不容易。
So when the book says that it doesn't physically aid in concentration, just scientifically, it does aid in concentration.
因此，当书上说它在物理上并不能帮助集中注意力时，只是从科学角度来看，它确实有助于集中注意力。
I told him.
我告诉他。
He's wrong.
他错了。
Sean Cole You think he's wrong?
肖恩·科尔 你认为他错了？
I don't think he's wrong.
我不认为他错了。
I know he's wrong.
我知道他错了。
He's a neurobiologist.
他是一位神经生物学家。
John Dicey I don't care what he is.
约翰·戴西 我不在乎他是什么。
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
John Dicey That's what-- I'm not being disrespectful to him.
约翰·戴西：就是这样——我并不是对他不敬。
Yeah, no, sure.
是的，不，当然。
John Dicey He has a theory.
约翰·戴西 他有一个理论。
His theory--
他的理论——
--on many levels.
——在很多层面上。
And I'm struggling to understand why there's a desperation to prove or believe that nicotine does something when it doesn't.
我很难理解为什么人们急于证明或相信尼古丁有作用，而实际上却没有。
I've never heard so much nonsense in my life.
我这辈子从来没有听过这么多废话。
I'm sorry.
对不起。
Very nice guy, I'm sure.
非常好的人，我确信。
And I'm sure he believes what he's saying.
我确信他相信他所说的。
But it's absolute nonsense.
但这绝对是无稽之谈。
I think that's where we're misunderstanding each other because I'm not looking for positives of nicotine.
我认为这就是我们互相误解的地方，因为我并不是在寻找尼古丁的积极作用。
I was just looking for what is the mechanism.
我只是想看看这个机制是什么。
I was just like looking for what is the mechanism.
我只是想看看这是什么机制。
And when I learned about the different neurochemicals that nicotine evokes in the brain, it just felt like-- that the method was predicated on a lie, that nicotine--
当我了解到尼古丁在大脑中激发的不同神经化学物质时，我感觉——这个方法是基于谎言，尼古丁——
Your feeling is that you would-- you'll take nicotine for the rest of your life?
您的感觉是您会——您将终生服用尼古丁？
Well, it wasn't my plan.
嗯，这不是我的计划。
It wasn't my plan because--
这不是我的计划，因为——
Why isn't it your plan?
为什么这不是你的计划？
Why isn't it your plan if it's giving you these tremendous benefits?
如果它给你带来了这些巨大的好处，为什么它不是你的计划呢？
You struggle without it.
没有它你就会挣扎。
Why wouldn't you just take it for the rest of your life?
你为什么不带着它度过余生呢？
I think because there are health detriments that are nothing like--
我认为是因为存在一些健康危害——
Things got spicy with John Dicey.
约翰·戴西的事情变得很棘手。
He emailed me more than once, weeks after the fact, to say he was still reeling from the interview, doesn't understand why anyone would push back at the Allen Carr Easyway method.
几周后，他不止一次给我发电子邮件，说他仍然对采访感到震惊，不明白为什么有人会反对艾伦·卡尔 Easyway 方法。
We've only ever done good in the world, he said.
“我们在这个世界上只做过好事，”他说。
That's like kicking a cat.
这就像踢猫一样。
And why would anyone ever suggest there was a benefit to nicotine, other than maybe the tobacco companies or big pharma?
除了烟草公司或大型制药公司之外，为什么有人会认为尼古丁有好处呢？
If it was true, I could almost live with that.
如果这是真的，我几乎可以忍受。
If nicotine did make it easier for people to concentrate, non-nicotine addicts to concentrate, I could live with that.
如果尼古丁确实能让人们更容易集中注意力，让非尼古丁成瘾者更容易集中注意力，我可以接受。
I'm genuinely interested to look at the studies you've looked at.
我真的很想看看你看过的研究。
If there were advantages to it, I'd certainly acknowledge that.
如果它有好处，我当然会承认。
But there aren't.
但没有。
It's just--
这只是——
I guess, how can you say there aren't when you say that you haven't looked at the science, that it's just not-- and that's fine that it's not interesting to you.
我想，当你说你没有研究过科学时，你怎么能说不存在呢，它只是不存在——而且你对它不感兴趣也没关系。
But when it's not interesting to you, and so you haven't really read about it, and Allen didn't really read about it, then how can you say it's not true?
但是，如果你对它不感兴趣，所以你没有真正读过它，艾伦也没有真正读过它，那么你怎么能说它不是真的呢？
It's just-- it's irrelevant, isn't it?
这只是——这无关紧要，不是吗？
I don't know.
我不知道。
I wouldn't want to spend too much time discussing whether the moon is made out of cheese.
我不想花太多时间讨论月亮是否是由奶酪制成的。
I'm pretty sure it isn't.
我很确定不是。
[LAUGHTER] Do you know what I mean?
[笑声]你知道我的意思吗？
I think it's hugely dangerous to talk about that there might be benefits to nicotine when it's just simply not true.
我认为谈论尼古丁可能有好处是非常危险的，而事实并非如此。
It's unfortunate the book didn't work for you.
不幸的是这本书不适合你。
And I'm really sorry about that.
对此我真的很抱歉。
And I wish you'd reached out for help at the time because it doesn't have to be this complicated.
我希望您当时能够寻求帮助，因为事情不必这么复杂。
It really doesn't.
确实没有。
I'm really pleased you're not smoking.
我真的很高兴你不抽烟。
And I hope you're as well as you can be with the prognosis and everything like that.
我希望你对预后和类似的事情都能满意。
Yeah, thank you.
是的，谢谢。
John Dicey If you think this understanding has helped you continue not smoking, that's brilliant.
约翰·戴西（John Dicey）：如果您认为这种理解帮助您继续戒烟，那就太棒了。
But you-- are you well?
但你——你还好吗？
You sort of--
你有点——
Thank you for asking.
谢谢你的询问。
I think I'm OK.
我想我还好。
So basically, they say that the emphysema is mild, that it affects--
所以基本上，他们说肺气肿是轻微的，它会影响--
John Dicey says the organization doesn't make any claims about the success rate of the book.
约翰·戴西表示，该组织并未对这本书的成功率做出任何声明。
For any measurable success, they always point to the seminar they give, which Allen Carr always said was about 90% effective.
对于任何可衡量的成功，他们总是指出他们举办的研讨会，艾伦·卡尔总是说研讨会的效率约为 90%。
He based that figure on only about 10% of seminar goers taking advantage of the money-back guarantee.
他得出的这一数字是基于只有大约 10% 的研讨会参加者利用了退款保证。
In order to get your money back, you have to do the session two additional times for free.
为了拿回你的钱，你必须额外免费参加两次课程。
Anyway, the company has backed off from that claim in recent years.
不管怎样，该公司近年来已经放弃了这一说法。
The seminar was put through a couple of randomized, controlled trials where it was pitted against methods that offer both behavioral support and pharmacology, nicotine replacement, that kind of thing.
该研讨会进行了几项随机对照试验，与提供行为支持和药理学、尼古丁替代品等的方法进行了比较。
The more recent and bigger of those studies found that 19% of the Allen Carr people were still quit after six months versus 15% of the other group.
这些研究中最新、规模更大的研究发现，19% 的 Allen Carr 人群在六个月后仍然戒烟，而其他群体的这一比例为 15%。
With the margin of error, that basically means they're on par.
考虑到误差幅度，这基本上意味着它们是相当的。
Although 19% success still means that the method didn't work for four out of five people in the study.
尽管 19% 的成功率仍然意味着该方法对研究中五分之四的人不起作用。
John Dicey told me he doesn't think those studies are a good reflection of what the results are, out in the real world.
约翰·戴西告诉我，他认为这些研究并不能很好地反映现实世界的结果。
I'm literally-- [COUGHS] --looking through my kitchen window, watching police officers smoke on the fire escape of the precinct.
我真的——[咳嗽]——透过厨房的窗户，看着警察在辖区的防火梯上抽烟。
And this is four months in.
这已经是四个月了。
Wherever you look, wherever you smell, there it is, your past.
无论你看向哪里，无论你闻到哪里，它都在那里，你的过去。
It's like you broke up with someone who was horrible for you.
这就像你和一个对你来说很糟糕的人分手了。
And then you leave your apartment and that person is on every street corner, wafting their perfume at you, which was and remains intoxicating, literally.
然后你离开你的公寓，那个人就出现在每个街角，向你飘来香水，这确实是令人陶醉的。
And then you go back to the confines of your apartment.
然后你回到你的公寓范围内。
And you look out the window.
你看着窗外。
And there they are, blowing kisses at a brick wall.
他们就在那里，对着砖墙飞吻。
Now I can't tell whether I'm talking about the metaphor or the physical reality.
现在我不知道我是在谈论隐喻还是物理现实。
I actually may have stumbled into a really good, though, kind of worrying explanation as to why I'm not in the percentile-- whatever it is-- of Allen Carr success stories.
事实上，我可能无意中找到了一个非常好的、但又令人担忧的解释，解释了为什么我没有进入艾伦·卡尔成功故事的百分位（无论是什么）。
I talked with a prominent psychiatrist who's had patients that use the method.
我和一位著名的精神科医生交谈过，他的病人也使用过这种方法。
So she's familiar with the book.
所以她对这本书很熟悉。
Her name is Anna Lembke.
她的名字叫安娜·莱姆克。
She runs the Addiction Medicine Dual Diagnosis Clinic at Stanford.
她在斯坦福大学经营成瘾医学双重诊断诊所。
She also wrote a book called Dopamine Nation, which is where I learned that nicotine increases dopamine levels by 150%, which is 50% more than sex.
她还写了一本叫《多巴胺国家》的书，在这本书中我了解到尼古丁可以使多巴胺水平提高 150%，比性多 50%。
I called her to talk science.
我打电话给她谈论科学。
But our conversation became a little like a therapy session at some points.
但我们的谈话在某些时候变得有点像治疗课程。
I told her there's this thing that happens in the shower when I first turn the water cold at the end.
我告诉她，当我最后第一次把水冷时，在淋浴时会发生这种情况。
It makes you feel good after, not during.
它让你在之后而不是期间感觉良好。
And weirdly, I don't just crave a cigarette right at that moment.
奇怪的是，在那一刻我不只是想抽烟。
It's this very specific sensation, like I'm taking a big whiff from a glass ashtray that I just emptied but haven't washed out yet.
这是一种非常特殊的感觉，就像我从刚刚倒空但还没有洗掉的玻璃烟灰缸里吸了一大口烟一样。
It's not a gross feeling.
这不是一种恶心的感觉。
It's a wanting feeling.
这是一种想要的感觉。
Does it happen immediately, when you turn the-- feel first feel the pain of the cold water?
当你第一次感受到冷水的疼痛时，它会立即发生吗？
Yes.
是的。
Anna Lembke OK, so that's very interesting.
Anna Lembke 好的，这很有趣。
There's a whole, famous series of experiments showing--
有一整套著名的实验表明——
She told me there were these studies done where they would take a rodent and get it addicted to some drug by letting it press a lever over and over again to receive that drug.
她告诉我，他们进行了一些研究，他们会拿一只啮齿动物，通过让它一遍又一遍地按下杠杆来接受某种药物，从而使其对某种药物上瘾。
But then if you take the drug out of the equation, it'll eventually stop hitting the button because-- what's the point?
但如果你把药物从等式中剔除，它最终会停止按下按钮，因为——这有什么意义呢？
And then it wanders off to do other things in the cage to amuse itself.
然后它就去笼子里做其他事情来自娱自乐。
However--
然而——
If, then, you take that same animal and you expose it to a painful foot shock, the animal will immediately run over to the lever and wildly start pressing it--
那么，如果你带着同一只动物，让它遭受痛苦的足部震动，动物会立即跑到控制杆处，开始疯狂地按下它——
Whoa.
哇哦。
Anna Lembke --as a way to-- yeah, isn't that interesting?
安娜·莱姆克（Anna Lembke）——作为一种——是的，这不是很有趣吗？
So I suspect that is what is happening to you, that by having cold-water showers, what you're doing is you're shocking your body with a painful stimulus, which is then triggering your automatic neurological safety and compensatory mechanism, which is to smoke a cigarette.
所以我怀疑这就是发生在你身上的事情，通过洗冷水澡，你所做的就是用一种痛苦的刺激来震动你的身体，然后触发你的自动神经安全和补偿机制，那就是抽烟。
Whoa.
哇哦。
That's wild.
那太疯狂了。
Wow.
哇。
Anna Lembke Yeah, yeah, in other words, you've created an elaborate, neurological circuit around smoking.
安娜·莱姆克：是的，是的，换句话说，你已经围绕吸烟创建了一个复杂的神经回路。
And even months after you've stopped smoking, that neurological circuit is still healthy and firing away in response to significant stressors.
即使在你戒烟几个月后，神经回路仍然健康，并且会在应对重大压力源时做出反应。
People talk about the physical addiction to nicotine and the psychological addiction to nicotine.
人们谈论尼古丁的身体成瘾和尼古丁的心理成瘾。
That sounds physical to me.
这对我来说听起来很物理。
It's--
这是——
[SIRENS WAILING] Sean Cole All this time, I'd been focusing on the damage that smoking had done to my lungs, 35 years worth of damage.
[警报声哀号] Sean Cole 一直以来，我一直关注吸烟对我的肺部造成的损害，相当于 35 年的损害。
I somehow hadn't thought in terms of doing that amount of damage to my brain too.
不知怎的，我也没有想到会对我的大脑造成如此大的伤害。
That'll take a long time to repair, Anna Lembke told me, especially given my age.
安娜·伦布克告诉我，这需要很长时间才能修复，尤其是考虑到我的年龄。
My brain isn't as plastic as it once was.
我的大脑不再像以前那样具有可塑性。
And there's another school of thought, she said, a more depressing one, which wonders whether the damage could be so far gone I can't repair it.
她说，还有另一种思想流派，一种更令人沮丧的思想，它想知道损害是否已经严重到我无法修复的地步。
It'll always be in this state of perpetual neurological withdrawal, which might require some kind of intervention.
它永远处于这种永久的神经退缩状态，这可能需要某种干预。
And in your case, that might look something like nicotine replacement therapies for life, potentially--
就你的情况而言，这可能看起来像是终身尼古丁替代疗法，可能——
For life?
为了一生？
Anna Lembke Yeah, for life, and potentially at higher doses than what you're currently taking.
Anna Lembke：是的，终身服用，而且剂量可能比您目前服用的剂量更高。
Wow.
哇。
Anna Lembke So-- yeah, so we used to use nicotine replacement therapy just to help people quit.
Anna Lembke 所以——是的，所以我们过去使用尼古丁替代疗法只是为了帮助人们戒烟。
But more and more, we're now using them in the maintenance phase, where people are just using them for years to decades.
但我们现在越来越多地在维护阶段使用它们，人们只是使用它们几年到几十年。
And again, the thinking there is that wow, the ideal is that with sustained abstinence, your brain would heal and you would return to whatever your pre-smoking baseline was.
再次，人们的想法是，哇，理想的是，通过持续戒烟，你的大脑会愈合，你会回到吸烟前的基线。
But in reality, what we see is that some people don't get to that place, and that they may need some form of nicotine to feel and function OK, going forward, indefinitely.
但实际上，我们看到的是有些人没有达到那个程度，他们可能需要某种形式的尼古丁来感觉和功能正常，并无限期地向前迈进。
Whoa.
哇哦。
So it's possible that I've broken my brain, sort of, my dopamine receptors, to the point where they're just not going to return to normal?
所以有可能我已经破坏了我的大脑，某种程度上，我的多巴胺受体，以至于它们无法恢复正常？
Yeah.
是的。
That's possible.
这是可能的。
I don't like to hear you say that your brain is broken.
我不喜欢听你说你脑子坏了。
But I guess just to think about it a little differently, it just could be that you no longer have the brain plasticity to completely reverse the changes.
但我想稍微换个角度思考一下，可能只是你不再具有完全扭转这些变化的大脑可塑性。
I had to listen back to that part of the interview a few times to fully feel the bomb drop of it.
我不得不反复听几次采访的那部分才能充分感受到其中的炸弹落下。
I know it's not an official diagnosis or anything or even an unofficial one.
我知道这不是官方诊断或任何东西，甚至不是非正式诊断。
I don't want to overreact.
我不想反应过度。
But the impact is something like when I learned I have lung disease.
但这种影响就像我得知自己患有肺病一样。
Permanent brain changes and lack of plasticity makes me think of aging, which makes me think of dying.
大脑的永久性变化和可塑性的缺乏让我想到了衰老，这让我想到了死亡。
Nicotine replacement for life, for the rest of my life-- how long is that going to be?
尼古丁替代品终生，我的余生——那会持续多久？
And still, even assessing all of that damage, knowing all of the havoc that smoking has wreaked on my body, still I wish there was some dimension in which I could keep doing it.
尽管如此，即使评估了所有这些损害，知道吸烟对我的身体造成的所有破坏，我仍然希望在某个方面我可以继续这样做。
If you're wondering, it's now been seven months.
如果你想知道的话，现在已经七个月了。
And I still haven't smoked a cigarette.
而且我还没有抽过烟。
Every now and then, I almost wake up to it all over again, like, I'm still not doing that?
时不时地，我几乎会再次醒来，想，我还是不这样做吗？
Talking with Anna Lembke confirmed this idea that had been pecking at me since I first read the book.
与安娜·伦布克的交谈证实了这个想法，自从我第一次读这本书以来，这个想法就一直困扰着我。
Allen Carr says there's only one kind of smoker and that any smoker can find it easy to quit.
艾伦·卡尔说，只有一种吸烟者，任何吸烟者都会发现戒烟很容易。
But I talked with a lot of people who had tried the method, folks it both worked for and didn't.
但我和很多尝试过这种方法的人交谈过，这些人要么有效，要么无效。
And I just think there's different kinds of smokers.
我只是认为吸烟者有不同类型。
I think there's a certain kind of smoker, like me, for whom there's just a lot of anger lurking in it.
我认为有某种类型的吸烟者，就像我一样，对他们来说，潜藏着很多愤怒。
It's like every hour or a couple of hours, we climb up to the roof and fling ourselves off of it as a petulant fuck you to being alive.
就好像每隔一个小时或几个小时，我们就会爬上屋顶，然后从屋顶上跳下来，就像一个任性的他妈的让你活着。
After all, we started doing this thing when we were kids, like 15, 16.
毕竟，我们在还是孩子的时候就开始做这件事了，比如 15、16 岁。
No wonder there's such a delicious nihilism to it for some of us.
难怪我们中的一些人有如此美妙的虚无主义。
It's like my 15-year-old fingers were still lifting the cigarette up to my 51-year-old lips.
就好像我 15 岁的手指仍在将香烟举到我 51 岁的嘴唇上。
I can't think of a lot of other behaviors that aren't associated with survival-- but it's even the opposite of survival-- that I did every day for that long.
我想不出还有多少其他行为与生存无关——但这甚至与生存相反——我每天都在做这么长时间的事情。
There's a line in one of the editions of the book I have, where Allen Carr writes, "if health, happiness, and freedom aren't enough to inspire you, then you have bigger problems than smoking." I underlined that passage.
我所拥有的书中的一个版本中有一句话，艾伦·卡尔在其中写道：“如果健康、幸福和自由不足以激励你，那么你就会遇到比吸烟更严重的问题。”我在这段话下划了线。
And in the margin, I wrote, "this is possible."
我在页边空白处写道：“这是可能的。”
Coming up, when you wish you knew how and whether to quit someone, and then you receive possibly the most well-articulated relationship advice of all time.
接下来，当你希望知道如何以及是否离开某人时，你可能会收到有史以来最清晰的关系建议。
That's in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.
稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Sean Cole, sitting in for Ira Glass.
我是肖恩·科尔，代理艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program, I Can't Quit You, Baby, stories of being on the verge of a big change, not wanting to let go, and the people who give you that final push.
今天的节目《我不能离开你，宝贝》讲述了处于重大变化边缘却不愿放手的故事，以及给你最后推动力的人们。
We now present act two of our program.
我们现在介绍我们节目的第二幕。
Act Two, A Spoonful of Sugar.
第二幕，一勺糖。
When we were putting together this week's show, one of the other producers here thought of this advice column she read, years ago, where the person writing in wasn't sure if they should quit a relationship or not.
当我们整理本周的节目时，这里的一位其他制作人想到了她几年前读过的这个建议专栏，其中写的人不确定他们是否应该放弃一段关系。
It was the column Cheryl Strayed used to do, called Dear Sugar.
这是谢丽尔·斯特雷德（Cheryl Strayed）曾经做过的专栏，名为《亲爱的糖》（Dear Sugar）。
Here's the letter.
这是这封信。
"Dear Sugar, I'm in my early 20s.
“亲爱的Sugar，我才20岁出头。
I've been in a serious relationship with the same guy for six years, on and off, and the off portion taking place when I was younger.
我和同一个人断断续续地保持着认真的关系六年了，断断续续的关系发生在我年轻的时候。
I have been very distracted and have been second guessing the relationship for a while now.
我一直很心烦意乱，有一段时间一直在重新猜测这段关系。
But I can't come to grips with losing this person, that seems to be right for me, permanently.
但我无法接受失去这个人，这似乎对我来说是永远的。
And of course, I don't want to break his heart.
当然，我不想伤他的心。
Then again, I don't want to settle and have regrets later in life.
话又说回来，我不想安定下来，让以后的生活留下遗憾。
I feel like we want different things out of life and we have different interests.
我觉得我们想要从生活中得到不同的东西，我们有不同的兴趣。
But I just can't decide.
但我就是无法决定。
I've talked to him about my feelings, for the record, but to no avail.
我和他谈过我的感受，记录在案，但没有结果。
We went on this little break.
我们继续这个短暂的休息。
But god knows breaks never work.
但天知道休息是行不通的。
Basically, my biggest fear is being alone and never finding anyone that measures up.
基本上，我最大的恐惧是独自一人，找不到任何能达到标准的人。
It doesn't help that my closest friends are settling down with their boyfriends and are talking about marriage.
我最亲密的朋友已经和他们的男朋友安定下来并谈论婚姻，这无济于事。
Cringe.
畏缩。
Honestly, I feel like marriage and that kind of commitment represents a loss of personal identity.
老实说，我觉得婚姻和这种承诺代表着个人身份的丧失。
I'm not sure why.
我不知道为什么。
But I would love your advice, Sugar.
但我很想听听你的建议，糖。
Please help.
请帮忙。
Sincerely, Scared and Confused.
真诚的，害怕和困惑。
Here's Cheryl Strayed, reading her response.
谢丽尔·斯特雷德正在阅读她的回复。
Dear Scared and Confused, I lived in London when I was 20.
亲爱的害怕和困惑，我 20 岁时住在伦敦。
I was technically homeless and desperately broke.
从技术上讲，我无家可归，而且身无分文。
But I didn't have the papers an American needs to get a job in London.
但我没有美国人在伦敦找到工作所需的文件。
So I spent most of my time walking the streets, searching for coins that people had dropped.
所以我大部分时间都在街上走，寻找人们掉落的硬币。
One day, when I was searching for coins, a man in a business suit approached and asked me if I wanted an under-the-table job, three days a week at a major accounting firm that has since collapsed due to corruption.
有一天，当我在寻找硬币时，一名穿着西装的男子走过来，问我是否想在一家大型会计师事务所从事每周三天的地下工作，该事务所后来因腐败而倒闭。
Sure, I said.
当然，我说。
And this is how I became coffee girl one two three.
这就是我成为咖啡女孩一二三的原因。
Coffee girl was my actual job title.
咖啡女孩是我真正的职位名称。
The one two three was tacked on to communicate the fact that I was responsible for providing coffee and tea to all the accountants and secretaries who worked on the first three floors of the building.
添加一二三是为了传达这样一个事实：我负责为大楼前三层工作的所有会计师和秘书提供咖啡和茶。
It was a harder job than you might think.
这比你想象的更难。
Coffee girl, men would call, as I passed them with my tray, often snapping their fingers to draw my attention their way.
当我端着托盘经过他们身边时，男人们会这样称呼“咖啡女孩”，她们常常打响指来吸引我的注意力。
I wore a black skirt over white tights and a black vest over a white shirt.
我在白色紧身衣外面穿了一条黑色裙子，在白色衬衫外面穿了一件黑色背心。
And I was almost always out of breath.
我几乎总是气喘吁吁。
Banned from the elevator, I had to race up and down steps in a stairwell, that ran along the back of the building, to get from one floor to the next.
由于被禁止乘坐电梯，我不得不在沿着大楼后面的楼梯井里跑上跑下，从一层到下一层。
That stairwell was my sanctuary, the only place where nobody snapped their fingers and called me coffee girl.
那个楼梯间是我的避难所，是唯一没有人打响指并称我为咖啡女孩的地方。
During my breaks, I'd walk down to the first floor and go outside and sit on a patch of concrete that edged the building that housed the major accounting firm that has since collapsed due to corruption.
休息期间，我会走到一楼，走到外面，坐在一块混凝土上，这块混凝土位于一家大型会计师事务所所在大楼的边缘，该事务所后来因腐败而倒塌。
One day while I was sitting there, an old woman came along and asked me where, in America, I was from.
有一天，当我坐在那里时，一位老妇走过来问我来自美国的哪里。
I told her.
我告诉她。
And she said that years before, she had visited the place in America where I'm from.
她说，几年前，她参观过我来自美国的地方。
We had a nice conversation.
我们聊得很愉快。
And each day after that, she came along during the time when I was sitting on the patch of concrete.
此后的每一天，当我坐在水泥地上的时候，她都会出现。
And we talked.
我们聊了。
She wasn't the only person who came to talk to me.
她不是唯一来找我说话的人。
I was in love with someone at the time.
那时我爱上了一个人。
In fact, I was married to that someone.
事实上，我已经和那个人结婚了。
And I was in way over my head.
我有点不知所措。
At night, after I made love to this man, I would lie beside him and cry because I knew that I loved him but that I couldn't bear to stay with him because I wasn't ready to love only one person yet.
晚上，当我和这个男人做爱后，我会躺在他身边哭泣，因为我知道我爱他，但我无法忍受和他在一起，因为我还没有准备好只爱一个人。
And I knew that if I left him, I would die of a broken heart.
我知道如果我离开他，我会心碎而死。
And I would kill him of a broken heart too.
我也会因为伤心而杀了他。
And it would be over for me when it came to love because there would never be another person who I'd love as much as I loved him, or who loved me as much as he loved me, or who was as sweet and sexy and cool and compassionate and good, through and through.
当谈到爱情时，这对我来说就结束了，因为再也没有另一个人像我爱他一样爱我，或者像他爱我一样爱我，或者像他一样甜蜜、性感、冷静、富有同情心和善良，彻头彻尾。
So I stayed.
所以我留下来了。
We looked for coins on the streets of London together.
我们一起在伦敦街头寻找硬币。
And sometimes, he would come and visit me at the major accounting firm that has since collapsed due to corruption, while I was on my breaks.
有时，当我休息时，他会到一家因腐败而倒闭的大型会计师事务所拜访我。
One day, he came while the old woman was there.
有一天，他来了，而老妇人也在场。
The man I love and the old woman had never come at the same time.
我爱的男人和老女人从来没有同时出现过。
But I had told him about her.
但我已经告诉过他关于她的事了。
And I had told her about him too.
我也告诉过她关于他的事。
"Is this your husband," the old woman exclaimed with jubilant recognition when he walked up.
“这是你的丈夫吗？”当他走上前来时，老妇人高兴地喊道。
She shook his hand with both of her hands.
她用双手握着他的手。
And they chatted for a few minutes.
他们聊了几分钟。
And then she left.
然后她就离开了。
The man I loved was silent for a good while, giving the old woman time to walk away.
我爱的男人沉默了好一会儿，给老妇人时间走开。
And then he looked at me and said, with some astonishment, "she has a bundle on her head."
然后他看着我，有些惊讶地说：“她头上缠着一个包袱。”
"She has a bundle on her head," I said.
“她头上缠着一个包袱，”我说。
"She has a bundle on her head," he said back.
“她头上缠着一个包袱，”他回答道。
And then we laughed and laughed and laughed, so hard it might, to this day, still be the time I laughed the hardest.
然后我们笑啊笑啊笑，笑得很厉害，直到今天，仍然是我笑得最厉害的时候。
He was right.
他是对的。
He was right.
他是对的。
That old woman, all that time, all through the conversations we'd had as I sat on the concrete patch, had had an enormous bundle on her head.
那个老妇人，一直以来，在我坐在水泥地上的整个谈话过程中，她的头上都顶着一个巨大的包袱。
She appeared perfectly normal in every way but this one.
除了这一点之外，她在各方面都显得完全正常。
She wore an impossible, 3-foot tower of ratty old rags and ripped up blankets and towels on top of her head, held there by a complicated system of ropes tied beneath her chin, and fastened to loops on the shoulders of her raincoat.
她穿着一个不可思议的、3英尺高的破旧破布塔，头上顶着撕破的毯子和毛巾，用一套复杂的绳索系在她的下巴下面，并固定在雨衣肩上的环上。
It was a bizarre sight.
这是一个奇怪的景象。
But in all my conversations with my husband about the old woman, I'd never mentioned it.
但在我和丈夫谈论那个老妇人的所有谈话中，我从未提到过它。
"She has a bundle on her head," we shrieked to each other, through our laughter, on the patch of concrete that day.
“她头上缠着一个包袱。”那天，我们在水泥地上笑着互相尖叫。
But before long, I wasn't laughing any more.
但不久之后，我就不再笑了。
I was crying.
我哭了。
I cried and cried and cried as hard as I'd laughed.
我哭啊哭啊，哭得像我笑得那么厉害。
I cried so hard I didn't go back to work.
我哭得很厉害，没有回去工作。
My job as coffee girl one two three ended right then and there.
我作为咖啡女孩一二三的工作就在那里结束了。
"Why are you crying," asked my husband as he held me.
“你为什么哭？”我丈夫抱着我问道。
"Because I'm hungry," I said.
“因为我饿了，”我说。
But it wasn't true.
但这不是真的。
It was true that I was hungry.
我确实饿了。
During that time, we never had enough money or enough food.
在那段时间里，我们从来没有足够的钱或足够的食物。
But it wasn't the reason I was crying.
但这不是我哭泣的原因。
I was crying because there was a bundle on the old woman's head, and I hadn't been able to say that there was, and because I knew that was somehow connected to the fact that I didn't want to stay with the man I loved anymore.
我哭是因为老妇人的头上有一个包袱，而我却无法说有，因为我知道这在某种程度上与我不想再和我爱的男人在一起这一事实有关。
But I couldn't bring myself to acknowledge what was so very obvious and so very true.
但我无法让自己承认如此明显且如此真实的事情。
That was such a long time ago, Scared and Confused.
那是很久以前的事了，既害怕又困惑。
But it all came back when I read your letter.
但当我读到你的信时，一切又回来了。
It made me think that perhaps that moment delivered me here to say this to you.
这让我想到也许那一刻让我来到这里对你说这些。
You have a bundle on your head, Sweet Pea.
你头上有一个包袱，甜豌豆。
And though that bundle may be impossible for you to see right now, it's entirely visible to me.
尽管您现在可能无法看到该捆绑包，但我完全可以看到它。
You aren't torn.
你没有被撕裂。
You're only just afraid.
你只是害怕而已。
You no longer wish to be in a relationship with your lover, even though he's a great guy.
你不再希望与你的爱人建立关系，即使他是一个很棒的人。
Fear of being alone is not a good reason to stay.
害怕孤独并不是留下来的好理由。
Leaving this man you've been with for six years won't be easy.
离开这个陪伴你六年的男人并不容易。
But you'll be OK.
但你会没事的。
And so will he.
他也会的。
The end of your relationship with him will likely also mark the end of an era of your life.
你和他关系的结束很可能也标志着你生命中一个时代的结束。
In moving into this next era, there are going to be things you lose and things you gain.
在进入下一个时代的过程中，你会失去一些东西，也会得到一些东西。
Trust yourself.
相信自己。
It's Sugar's golden rule.
这是糖的黄金法则。
Trust in yourself means living out what you already know to be true.
相信自己意味着活出你已经知道的真理。
Yours, Sugar.
你的，糖。
When that producer brought it up at the weekly story meeting, someone else said that she had read the same column, and that it was what made her decide to divorce her husband.
当制片人在每周的故事会上提起这件事时，其他人说她读过同一专栏，这就是她决定与丈夫离婚的原因。
Said the same thing happened with a friend of hers, read the column, left the relationship.
说同样的事情发生在她的一个朋友身上，读了专栏后就离开了关系。
This is what I'm talking about, about a kind of spell being cast.
这就是我所说的，关于施展的一种咒语。
Cheryl told us that of all of the thousands of letters she's gotten in the 13 years she's had the column, this is the most common predicament people find themselves in.
谢丽尔告诉我们，在她开设专栏的 13 年里，她收到了数千封来信，这是人们最常遇到的困境。
All over the world, people are wondering, is it time to get out?
世界各地的人们都在想，是时候离开了吗？
Something like a third of all of her letter writers ask her this question.
大约三分之一的写信人都问过她这个问题。
An adaptation of Cheryl Strayed's columns is now streaming on Hulu.
谢丽尔·斯特雷德 (Cheryl Strayed) 专栏的改编版现已在 Hulu 上播出。
It's called Tiny Beautiful Things.
它的名字叫《微小的美丽的事物》。
Our audio version of this column was produced by Diane Wu.
本专栏的音频版本由 Diane Wu 制作。
Sometimes the words that convince someone to quit a thing aren't advice, aren't supportive.
有时，说服某人放弃某件事的话语并不是建议，也不是支持性的。
But they're just as effective in getting you to let go, maybe more so.
但它们对于让你放手同样有效，甚至更有效。
This next story is a case like that.
下一个故事就是这样的例子。
And it's from producer, Zoe Chace.
这是制片人 Zoe Chace 的作品。
To start this next quitting story, I have to take you back a few months, to November, 2022, election night.
为了开始下一个戒烟故事，我必须把你带回到几个月前，即 2022 年 11 月的选举之夜。
We ran a story about an election administrator.
我们报道了一个关于选举管理员的故事。
Lots of people with that job have quit in the last few years because of harassment and death threats from people who believed the last election, or last elections, were stolen.
过去几年，许多从事这份工作的人都辞职了，因为有人相信上次选举被盗，并发出死亡威胁。
Not this guy, not Heider Garcia in Tarrant County Texas, home of Fort Worth.
不是这个人，不是德克萨斯州塔兰特县的海德·加西亚，沃斯堡的家乡。
He'd never be driven out by conspiracy theorists.
他永远不会被阴谋论者赶走。
In fact, he'd figured out, it seemed, this rare way to work with them, to invite them in.
事实上，他似乎已经想出了这种与他们合作、邀请他们加入的罕见方式。
So there was this one time-- Zoe Chace One example-- during one election, one of the activists came in to where the votes are tallied.
所以有一次——佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace）的一个例子——在一次选举期间，一名活动人士来到计票处。
And this activist was like, if I were in charge, I would make the walls glass so you could see the election machines and where every cable goes.
这位活动人士说，如果我负责，我会把墙壁做成玻璃，这样你就可以看到选举机器和每根电缆的走向。
Heider was like, OK, I hear you.
海德说，好吧，我听到了。
So I told him, what about if we rearrange the room so the machines are not in this little cabinet under the desk, but up where you can see them.
所以我告诉他，如果我们重新布置房间，让机器不在桌子下的这个小柜子里，而是在你可以看到它们的地方，怎么样？
And you can-- He said, well, maybe that would be a start.
你可以——他说，好吧，也许这将是一个开始。
So the next election, they came back in the runoff.
因此，在下一次选举中，他们在决选中卷土重来。
When they walked in the room, I told them, all the machines are on top of the tables.
当他们走进房间时，我告诉他们，所有的机器都在桌子上面。
You can see them back there, against the glass.
你可以在后面透过玻璃看到它们。
They're labeled, what each one of them does.
它们被标记为每个人的作用。
This is what you wanted, right?
这就是你想要的，对吗？
And so he had that moment of, OK, well, you got me on that one.
所以他有那么一刻，好吧，好吧，你让我明白了。
And it's little things like that we keep doing, right?
我们一直在做这样的小事，对吧？
Heider gave out his cell phone to anyone who wanted it.
海德把他的手机送给了任何想要的人。
There was this one activist in particular, Aubree Campbell.
特别是一位活动家，奥布里·坎贝尔 (Aubre Campbell)。
She had this channel on Telegram about election fraud stuff.
她在 Telegram 上有一个关于选举舞弊的频道。
And she posted about Heider a lot.
她还发布了很多关于海德的帖子。
And she called him all the time.
而且她一直给他打电话。
And she called him on election day.
她在选举日给他打电话。
So there's a picture going around.
于是就有了这样的画面。
And it's and it's purported to be a map of outages of all of the machines.
它据称是所有机器的停电地图。
Is that-- are you having issues with that?
那是——你对此有什么问题吗？
I'm going to send it to you to-- just so you see what this is--
我要把它发给你——只是为了让你看看这是什么——
All right.
好吧。
Yeah, send it to me.
是啊，发给我吧
I'll take a look, see what it is.
我去看看，看看是什么。
Please.
请。
That'd be great.
那太好了。
Yeah, I-- Zoe Chace He and Aubree had built up a real relationship, even though they didn't agree on anything.
是的，我 - Zoe Chace 他和 Aubree 建立了真正的关系，尽管他们在任何事情上都没有达成一致。
She came by on election night to hang out and watch everything and ask more questions.
她在选举之夜过来闲逛，观看一切并提出更多问题。
It really seemed to me like nothing could deter him from this job.
在我看来，没有什么可以阻止他从事这份工作。
The reporter who brought us Heider's story, Natalia Contreras, she talks about Heider's radical patience with the election conspiracists who used to fill his office.
为我们带来海德故事的记者娜塔莉亚·孔特雷拉斯 (Natalia Contreras) 谈到了海德对过去担任他办公室的选举阴谋分子的极端耐心。
And election administrators in the rest of the country looked to Heider as a model for transparency, openness, efficiency.
全国其他地区的选举管理人员将海德视为透明度、开放性和效率的典范。
The Secretary of State of Texas back then, not a Democrat, a very conservative guy, said to Natalia last year, if you were building a prototype for an elections administrator, you would just copy Heider Garcia.
当时的德克萨斯州国务卿不是民主党人，而是一个非常保守的人，他去年对娜塔莉亚说，如果你正在为选举管理员构建一个原型，你只需复制海德·加西亚即可。
But an April 16, 2023, Heider released a letter.
但2023年4月16日，海德发布了一封信。
It begins, gentlemen, please accept this letter as my formal resignation from the position as election administrator for Tarrant County.
首先，先生们，请接受这封信，作为我正式辞去塔兰特县选举管理员的职务。
Five months after we ran that story, Heider had quit.
在我们报道那个故事五个月后，海德辞职了。
Some people in the county were pretty upset.
县里的一些人很不高兴。
They spoke up at this public meeting.
他们在这次公开会议上发表了讲话。
One of the people was Aubree, the voter-fraud activist who was always questioning him.
其中一人是奥布里，一位经常质疑他的选民欺诈活动人士。
I was also shocked at Heider's resignation.
我对海德的辞职也感到震惊。
I've been working with him.
我一直在和他一起工作。
He is transparent.
他是透明的。
I want to give him that credit.
我想把这个功劳归功于他。
It is a loss because he's built these systems.
这是一种损失，因为这些系统是他建造的。
And he knows more about these computerized voting systems than most people on this planet.
他比这个星球上的大多数人更了解这些计算机化投票系统。
I don't think it's necessarily a win for the movement or for Tarrant County.
我认为这不一定是运动或塔兰特县的胜利。
But--
但是——
So what happened?
那么发生了什么？
Heider wouldn't talk about it for this story, citing his new job.
海德以他的新工作为由，不愿在这篇报道中谈论此事。
He's on this federal election advisory committee now.
他现在是联邦选举咨询委员会的成员。
But here's what we figured out.
但这就是我们的结论。
And a lot of this is based on Natalia's reporting for Vote Beat.
其中很多内容都是基于 Natalia 对 Vote Beat 的报道。
It actually all started the night we were down there, election night.
实际上这一切都始于我们在那里的那个晚上，选举之夜。
One of the elections Heider was overseeing was for who would be his new boss, a position called County Judge, the guy who would be in charge of Tarrant County.
海德负责监督的选举之一是选举谁将成为他的新老板，这个职位称为县法官，负责塔兰特县。
The winner was a man named Tim O'Hare.
获胜者是一个名叫蒂姆·奥黑尔的人。
He heavily featured election-fraud issues in his campaign, claiming that voter fraud is rampant-- it is not-- that the 2020 election was possibly stolen from Trump-- it was not.
他在竞选活动中重点强调了选举舞弊问题，声称选民舞弊十分猖獗——事实并非如此——2020 年的选举可能是从特朗普手中窃取的——事实并非如此。
Heider had dealt with scores of election skeptics.
海德曾与数十名选举怀疑论者打过交道。
But now one was his boss.
但现在有一个人是他的老板。
One of the first things Tim O'Hare did, when he got into office a few months ago, was set up an Election Integrity Task Force, like he'd promised during his campaign, to investigate election crimes.
蒂姆·奥黑尔几个月前上任时所做的第一件事就是成立选举诚信工作组，就像他在竞选期间承诺的那样，调查选举犯罪。
There was a big press conference.
举行了一场大型新闻发布会。
We encourage everyone to report actions that they have concerns about, whether it's at the voting booth, whether it is--
我们鼓励每个人报告他们所担心的行为，无论是在投票站，还是——
Heider was not consulted about the task force.
没有就特别工作组的问题咨询海德。
And when the task force was announced, he was not there.
当特别工作组宣布成立时，他并不在场。
A reporter asked if Heider was part of the Task Force.
一名记者询问海德是否是特别工作组的成员。
The Task Force is made up of investigators and deputies.
工作组由调查员和副手组成。
So he is-- I fully expect him to cooperate with it.
所以他——我完全希望他能够配合。
But he's not part of the Task Force, per se.
但他本身并不是特别工作组的成员。
It's worth mentioning even if you believe there is a major problem with voter fraud, which lots of officials in Texas do, Tarrant County got a special shout out in the big 2020 election audit that Texas did for running its election so smoothly, a quote, "quality, transparent election." That was Heider.
值得一提的是，即使你认为存在选民欺诈的重大问题（德克萨斯州的许多官员都这么认为），但塔兰特县在德克萨斯州进行的 2020 年大型选举审计中特别受到称赞，因为选举顺利进行，引用了“高质量、透明的选举”。那是海德。
So the Election Integrity Task Force was one thing.
因此，选举诚信工作组是一回事。
They also fought over the budget.
他们还就预算问题发生争执。
Money had been approved for Heider to buy an expensive attachment for a mail-sorting machine.
海德获得了资金，可以购买昂贵的邮件分拣机附件。
But O'Hare wouldn't vote to release the funds for it.
但奥黑尔不会投票决定发放资金。
There was an awkward back and forth at a public meeting, with O'Hare questioning him, like, why was this necessary.
在一次公开会议上，双方出现了尴尬的来回对话，奥黑尔问他，比如，为什么这是必要的。
Is there some other way that it's going to save money?
还有其他省钱的方法吗？
Because that's not saving money.
因为那不是省钱。
No. This is not an investment to save money.
不，这不是为了省钱而进行的投资。
This is an investment to make a labor incentive.
这是一项对劳动力进行投资的激励措施。
Did you not say, earlier, that you thought it would save money?
你之前不是说你认为这样可以省钱吗？
Nope.
没有。
No, no, I said I don't even think that I can come up with a number to save money.
不不，我说我根本不认为我能想出一个省钱的数字。
We're never going to get $150,000 back in year one.
我们永远不可能在第一年拿回 15 万美元。
That's not what I'm here to-- it's an investment in a cleaner, smoother, more efficient operation.
这不是我来这里的目的——这是对更清洁、更顺畅、更高效的运营的投资。
But it's not a case of saving money.
但这不是省钱的问题。
This was a real change for Heider, the golden boy of Texas elections.
对于德克萨斯州选举的金童海德来说，这是一个真正的变化。
To a certain degree, what made Tarrant County elections so secure, efficient, and transparent was the pricey election equipment.
在某种程度上，塔兰特县选举之所以如此安全、高效和透明，是因为昂贵的选举设备。
So Heider was accustomed to getting his requests approved.
所以海德已经习惯了他的请求得到批准。
Heider's previous boss, a Republican, once told Vote Beat, "if Garcia tells us he needs something, then we're going to get it for him."
海德的前老板是一名共和党人，他曾对 Vote Beat 表示，“如果加西亚告诉我们他需要什么，那么我们就会为他提供。”
Around this time, Heider and Tim O'Hare met in his office, where things clearly did not go well.
大约在这个时候，海德和蒂姆·奥黑尔在他的办公室见面，事情显然进展不顺利。
Heider mentioned it at the end of his resignation letter.
海德在辞职信的最后提到了这一点。
it ends, "Judge O'Hare, my formula to administer a quality, transparent election stands on respect and zero politics.
它的结尾是：“奥黑尔法官，我管理高质量、透明选举的秘诀是尊重和零政治。
Compromising on those values is not an option for me.
对我来说，在这些价值观上妥协不是一个选择。
You made it clear in our last meeting that your formula is different, thus my decision to leave.
你在我们上次会议上明确表示你的方案是不同的，因此我决定离开。
I wish you the best.
我祝你一切顺利。
Tarrant County deserves that you find success."
塔兰特县值得你取得成功。”
I reached out to Tim O'Hare.
我联系了蒂姆·奥黑尔。
He didn't respond.
他没有回应。
But one thing that came out later, on a radio show that O'Hare was on, was he didn't like the way Heider talked to reporters-- at all.
但后来在奥黑尔参加的广播节目中透露出一件事，他根本不喜欢海德与记者交谈的方式。
That seems like a central problem he had with Heider.
这似乎是他与海德之间的一个核心问题。
He said someone had given him a public-records request of Heider's communications.
他说有人向他提出了海德通信公开记录的要求。
And he didn't like what he saw in his texts with the press.
他不喜欢他在给媒体的短信中看到的内容。
Funny.
有趣的。
That was my favorite thing about Heider.
这是我最喜欢海德的一点。
So it was one guy that got Heider to go.
所以是一个人让海德离开的。
After dealing with countless voter-fraud activists over the years, Heider and Tim O'Hare had a meeting.
多年来，在与无数选民欺诈活动人士打交道后，海德和蒂姆·奥黑尔进行了一次会面。
And then Heider quit.
然后海德就辞职了。
Or you could say it was more than one guy.
或者你可以说这不仅仅是一个人。
O'Hare had been put in office by the voters, in an election that Heider had made sure it was fair.
奥黑尔是由选民推选上任的，海德确保这次选举是公平的。
Heider's last day was Friday, May 19.
海德的最后一天是 5 月 19 日星期五。
Aubree gave Heider a copy of The Federalist Papers.
奥布里给了海德一份《联邦党人文集》。
She inscribed it, "thank you for your assistance with my current understanding of Texas election procedures.
她写道：“感谢您帮助我了解德克萨斯州选举程序。
Please take time to relax.
请花点时间放松一下。
And I hope you enjoy perusing these early writings of the founding fathers."
我希望您喜欢细读这些开国元勋的早期著作。”
When we drove away from Heider's office that election night in 2022, I felt like we had witnessed this little scene that could be a model for how elections offices could be in the election-conspiracy era, where the administrators and the skeptics would be able to-- if not agree, at least coexist through elections.
2022 年选举之夜，当我们开车离开海德的办公室时，我感觉我们亲眼目睹了这个小场景，它可以成为选举办公室在选举阴谋时代的典范，在这个时代，管理者和怀疑论者将能够（即使不能达成一致）至少通过选举共存。
Heider, running around, making sure his workers were getting what they needed, while all night long, this one woman in a red, white, and blue dress followed the ballot bags around with a clipboard, taking notes.
海德四处奔走，确保他的工人们得到了他们需要的东西，而整个晚上，这位穿着红、白、蓝相间连衣裙的女人拿着剪贴板跟着选票袋走来走去，做笔记。
It felt oddly peaceful, stable.
感觉出奇的平静、稳定。
I was kind of optimistic.
我有点乐观。
Yeah no-- six months later, I don't see it that way.
是的，不——六个月后，我不这么认为。
Zoe Chace is one of the producers of our show.
佐伊·查斯是我们节目的制片人之一。
The program was produced today by Aviva DeKornfeld.
该节目今天由 Aviva DeKornfeld 制作。
The people who put together today's show include Jane Ackermann, Bim Adewunmi, James Bennett II, Phia Bennin, Chris Benderev, Jendayi Bonds, Michael Comite, Valerie Kipnis, Miki Meek, Katherine Rae Mondo, Stowe Nelson, Sara Parish, Nadia Reiman, Lilly Sullivan, Frances Swanson, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, and Julie Whitaker.
今天节目的制作人包括 Jane Ackermann、Bim Adewunmi、James Bennett II、Phia Bennin、Chris Benderev、Jendayi Bonds、Michael Comite、Valerie Kipnis、Miki Meek、Katherine Rae Mondo、Stowe Nelson、Sara Parish、Nadia Reiman、Lilly Sullivan、Frances Swanson、Christopher Swetala、Matt Tierney 和 Julie Whitaker。
Our managing editor is Sarah Abdurrahman.
我们的总编辑是萨拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sarah Abdurrahman)。
Our senior editor is David Kestenbaum.
我们的高级编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。
Our executive editor is Emmanuele Berry.
我们的执行主编是埃曼纽尔·贝里 (Emmanuele Berry)。
Special thanks today to Nikki Glaser, Jennifer White, William Georgides, Anthony Perullo, Viki Merrick, Ben Bianccini, Aditya Murkerji, Grace McCants, Julie Snyder, Rob Mohr, Gary Holl, Jamie Knapp, and Miranda Suarez.
今天特别感谢 Nikki Glaser、Jennifer White、William Georgides、Anthony Perullo、Viki Merrick、Ben Bianccini、Aditya Murkerji、Grace McCants、Julie Snyder、Rob Mohr、Gary Holl、Jamie Knapp 和 Miranda Suarez。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange, and our website, thisamericanlife.org, where we have all this new merch, great new t-shirts, lots of stuff.
《This American Life》由 PRX、公共广播电台和我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org 向公共广播电台提供，在网站上我们有所有这些新商品、很棒的新 T 恤和很多东西。
There's a beautiful illustration of our show's co-founder, Torey Malatia, on one of the shirts.
其中一件衬衫上有我们节目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 的精美插图。
Go check it out, thisamericanlife.org.
去看看，thisamericanlife.org。
Thanks, as always, to my boss, Ira Glass.
一如既往地感谢我的老板艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass)。
He was in the park the other day.
那天他在公园里。
And he jumped into this double Dutch routine with some kids.
他和一些孩子一起开始了这种双重荷兰式的生活。
He was like, left, right, cross, turn.
他就像，左，右，交叉，转身。
He was a natural.
他是一个天生的人。
Killed it.
杀了它。
And very proud of himself.
并且非常为自己感到骄傲。
"I mean, that's a very hard combo for most people to just drop themselves into."
“我的意思是，对于大多数人来说，这是一个非常困难的组合。”
I'm Sean Cole, back next week with more stories of This American Life.
我是肖恩·科尔，下周带着更多《美国生活》的故事回来。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。