805: The Florida Experiment - This American Life

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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #805 | July 14, 2023 805: The Florida Experiment Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.

00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 805 集 | 2023 年 7 月 14 日 805：佛罗里达实验 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。

If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.

如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。

Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.

文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。

Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.

请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。

Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass Justina Tedesco knows exactly when she got the idea to leave suburban New Jersey and move to a different state.

序言：序言 艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 贾斯蒂娜·泰德斯科 (Justina Tedesco) 清楚地知道她何时产生了离开新泽西郊区并搬到另一个州的想法。

It was still at the height of COVID.

当时仍处于新冠疫情最严重的时期。

Her second-grader was doing remote learning.

她的二年级学生正在进行远程学习。

The vaccine had barely been introduced, and most people couldn't get it.

疫苗刚刚推出，大多数人都无法接种。

She was working from home, and her son's class took a snack break.

她在家工作，而她儿子的班级则午休。

So we would usually go into the kitchen, grab a snack.

所以我们通常会走进厨房，吃点零食。

And on the TV was, of course, Fox News.

电视上当然还​​有福克斯新闻。

And DeSantis was on the TV talking about the pandemic and how he disapproved of how other states were handling things.

德桑蒂斯在电视上谈论了这一流行病，以及他如何不赞成其他州的处理方式。

And he said, he goes, well, since we're handling things so differently, if you're not happy in the state you live in, come to Florida.

他说，他说，好吧，因为我们处理事情的方式如此不同，如果你对你居住的州不满意，就来佛罗里达吧。

We welcome you here.

我们欢迎您来到这里。

If you look at home sales, I mean, it's pretty clear that people are viewing Florida as a landing pad.

如果你看看房屋销售情况，我的意思是，很明显人们将佛罗里达州视为着陆点。

When we looked up the clip, DeSantis didn't exactly tell people to move to Florida.

当我们查看这段视频时，德桑蒂斯并没有确切地告诉人们搬到佛罗里达州。

But you can see how Justina took it that way.

但你可以看到贾斯蒂娜是如何采取这种方式的。

You know, Tucker, it's interesting.

你知道，塔克，这很有趣。

As this went on, I would encounter people, particularly in September, that would move from parts of the country, say, look, they closed our schools.

随着这种情况的继续，我会遇到人们，特别是在九月，他们会从该国的部分地区搬来，比如说，看，他们关闭了我们的学校。

I want-- your schools are open.

我希望你们的学校能够开放。

I'm going to come here because you guys are doing it right.

我会来这里是因为你们做得对。

And I really do think these lockdowns have driven some people to Florida who just had enough with these draconian, ineffective restrictions.

我确实认为这些封锁已经迫使一些人来到佛罗里达，他们已经受够了这些严厉、无效的限制。

I don't know, it was like music to our ears.

我不知道，这对我们来说就像音乐。

And I thought about it for a second.

我想了一会儿。

And I'm like, could you imagine us living in Florida?

我想，你能想象我们住在佛罗里达吗？

Could we do it?

我们能做到吗？

Could we just pick up everything and move?

我们可以把所有东西都收拾起来然后搬家吗？

The big thing she wanted, in-person learning for her son.

她最想要的就是为儿子亲自学习。

For Dennis and Alenda Michael, in a small town in Washington State, it was a story on NBC News around the same time that did the job.

对于华盛顿州一个小镇的丹尼斯·迈克尔 (Dennis Michael) 和阿伦达·迈克尔 (Alenda Michael) 来说，大约同一时间 NBC 新闻上的一则报道完成了这项工作。

The story was about a grocery store in Naples, Florida.

这个故事是关于佛罗里达州那不勒斯的一家杂货店的。

And it was a hit piece on them because everybody was walking around the store without their mask on.

这对他们来说很受欢迎，因为每个人都没有戴口罩在商店里走来走去。

In fact, the reporter in the story reads comments from people who saw video of this store online.

事实上，报道中的记者读到了在网上看到这家商店视频的人的评论。

Prompting mostly heavy criticism.

引发的大多是严厉的批评。

"I can't stop watching this.

“我无法停止观看这个。

My jaw is literally on my desk.

我的下巴实际上是在我的桌子上。

This should be a crime.

这应该是犯罪行为。

People across the country are dying because of behavior like this." And from a woman mourning her father's death from COVID--

全国各地的人们都因为这样的行为而死亡。”一名妇女哀悼她父亲因新冠肺炎去世——

And I thought, that's a place I want to be.

我想，那是我想去的地方。

Wait, wait, wait.

等等，等等，等等。

I just want to be sure I understand.

我只是想确定我理解。

There was a story on television saying, look how terrible these people are.

电视上有一个故事说，看看这些人有多可怕。

They're walking around without masks.

他们不戴口罩到处走动。

And you saw that, and you concluded--

你看到了这一点，你得出结论——

That's where I want to be.

这就是我想去的地方。

The "terrible people part" I ignored because it looked to me like there were people that were enjoying life.

我忽略了“可怕的人部分”，因为在我看来，有些人正在享受生活。

And it just was a sense of freedom that we didn't have in Washington State.

这就是我们在华盛顿州所没有的自由感。

I was curious about all this because in the speeches that Ron DeSantis is giving as he runs for president, he talks a lot about how Florida is the fastest-growing state, which it is.

我对这一切感到好奇，因为在罗恩·德桑蒂斯竞选总统时发表的演讲中，他大量谈论佛罗里达州如何成为发展最快的州，事实也确实如此。

And he talks about how people are moving to Florida because of him and all he's done there, which, who knows?

他谈到人们如何因为他和他在那里所做的一切而搬到佛罗里达，谁知道呢？

It's true that among the transplants, there are twice as many Republicans as Democrats.

确实，在移植者中，共和党人的数量是民主党人的两倍。

But I wondered, what is really happening?

但我想知道，到底发生了什么？

Was DeSantis actually the reason that people uprooted their lives and crossed the country, like they wanted to be part of his Florida experiment?

德桑蒂斯真的是人们背井离乡、穿越整个国家的原因吗，就像他们想成为他的佛罗里达实验的一部分一样？

So in the last week, I've talked to a half dozen people who told me, yes, they did exactly that.

所以在上周，我和六个人交谈过，他们告诉我，是的，他们就是这么做的。

Though they all said it wasn't just politics.

尽管他们都说这不仅仅是政治。

It was also the fact that there's no state income tax in Florida, and housing prices, for nearly all of them, that's way cheaper than where they moved from.

事实上，佛罗里达州没有州所得税，而且几乎所有人的房价都比他们搬来的地方便宜得多。

They love the sunny, summery lifestyle.

他们喜欢阳光明媚、夏日的生活方式。

But they all said politics clinched it, in particular, COVID politics, the way Governor Ron DeSantis broke ranks early and loudly from other states in opening schools and ditching mask mandates.

但他们都表示，政治决定了这一点，特别是新冠政治，州长罗恩·德桑蒂斯(Ron DeSantis)在开放学校和放弃口罩强制令方面很早就与其他州大声喧哗。

And that's when migration to the state picked up.

就在那时，向该州的移民开始增多。

As one woman, Kim, who moved from Payson, Utah, put it--

正如一位来自犹他州佩森的女性 Kim 所说——

We honestly had never even considered Florida prior to COVID.

老实说，在新冠疫情爆发之前，我们从未考虑过佛罗里达州。

Wow.

哇。

Kim Yeah, it had not been on our list at all.

Kim 是的，它根本不在我们的名单上。

Justina wanted to get her second-grader on board with the idea of moving.

贾斯蒂娜想让她的二年级学生接受搬家的想法。

So before they put their house on the market, she sat down with him on the living room couch, and they each put a piece of paper on the coffee table, and each wrote out the pros and cons of going to Florida.

因此，在他们把房子推向市场之前，她和他一起坐在客厅的沙发上，他们每人在咖啡桌上放了一张纸，并各自写下了去佛罗里达的利弊。

And I said, OK, well, Vincent, let's sit down and let's write down all the things that come to your mind about what makes Florida awesome, and then what we would might miss if we move away from New Jersey.

我说，好吧，文森特，让我们坐下来，写下您想到的所有关于佛罗里达州为何如此精彩的事情，以及如果我们搬离新泽西州，我们可能会错过什么。

And so he goes, OK.

于是他就走了，好吧。

So my list started with, obviously, at the top of mine was in-person learning.

因此，显然，我的清单首先是面对面学习。

And then I had on my list, no state income tax.

然后我的名单上没有州所得税。

I wrote DeSantis down as one of the items.

我把德桑蒂斯作为其中一项写了下来。

He was literally just-- his name was listed as number 3.

他确实只是——他的名字被列为第三名。

And some of my cons were missing our family, not having the convenience of being able to have babysitters as frequently--

我的一些缺点是想念我们的家人，没有经常请保姆的便利——

She has a big Italian family living around them in New Jersey.

她周围有一个意大利大家庭住在新泽西州。

And when I went to go review my son's list, and I said, hey, what do you have, his list had-- his pros were lizards, were on his pros list.

当我去查看我儿子的名单时，我说，嘿，你有什么，他的名单上有——他的职业是蜥蜴，在他的职业名单上。

And I think I actually had that on my cons list.

我想我的缺点清单上确实有这个。

[LAUGHS] Justina Tedesco And on his cons list, he wrote sharks.

[笑] Justina Tedesco 在他的缺点清单上，他写了鲨鱼。

But the most important thing, he didn't write that he would miss his classmates or his school, which told Justina his remote learning experience was so bad, he wasn't bonding with those kids, and they really got to get out of New Jersey and into in-person school.

但最重要的是，他没有写下他会想念他的同学或学校，这告诉贾斯蒂娜他的远程学习经历非常糟糕，他与那些孩子没有联系，他们真的必须离开新泽西州并进入面对面的学校。

While COVID policies were the thing that really convinced the people I talked to into moving, almost all of them liked the other stuff that Ron DeSantis has so prominently brought to Florida, his anti-woke policies, restricting what's said in schools about sexuality and race and systemic racism, his ban on gender-affirming care for trans kids, and on transgender girls doing sports with other girls, his ban on abortion after six weeks.

虽然新冠疫情政策真正说服了我采访过的人搬家，但几乎所有人都喜欢罗恩·德桑蒂斯为佛罗里达州带来的其他东西，包括他的反觉醒政策，限制学校里有关性、种族和系统性种族主义的言论，禁止对跨性别儿童提供性别肯定的照顾，禁止跨性别女孩与其他女孩一起做运动，禁止六周后堕胎。

Justina weighs up the trade-offs this way.

贾斯蒂娜以这种方式权衡利弊。

I do miss all my family.

我确实想念我的家人。

And I said to myself too, you know, I'd rather be where I have most things in common with people.

我也对自己说，你知道，我宁愿呆在与人们有最多共同点的地方。

And I can always visit New Jersey or New York on vacation.

我可以随时去新泽西或纽约度假。

[CHUCKLES]

[笑声]

Ira Glass For today on our program, Ron DeSantis is running around the country telling Americans we can all have what these new Floridians are loving in their new homes if we vote for him for president.

艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 在今天的节目中，罗恩·德桑蒂斯 (Ron DeSantis) 正在全国各地奔波，告诉美国人，如果我们投票支持他当选总统，我们就可以在新家里拥有这些新佛罗里达人所喜爱的东西。

Maybe you've seen the bumper sticker, "Make America Florida."

也许您见过保险杠贴纸：“让美国成为佛罗里达州”。

So what would that be like?

那会是什么样子呢？

How's it working out for people?

人们的情况如何？

Today, we go inside the Florida experiment he's created there.

今天，我们将深入了解他在佛罗里达州进行的实验。

From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.

来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Stay with us.

留在我们身边。

Act one, Prescription for Freedom.

第一幕，自由的处方。

So Ron DeSantis' governorship, and also the presence of Donald Trump in the state, have created a kind of hothouse of a political experiment on the right in Florida, with all kinds of wealthy influential right-wingers migrating to the state, specifically to Sarasota County, northwest of Mar-a-Lago over on the Gulf Coast.

因此，罗恩·德桑蒂斯的州长任期以及唐纳德·特朗普在该州的存在，在佛罗里达州创造了一种右翼政治实验的温室，各种富有、有影响力的右翼分子移民到该州，特别是墨西哥湾沿岸海湖庄园西北部的萨拉索塔县。

Perfect example, Mike Flynn is one of the newest arrivals.

完美的例子是，迈克·弗林（Mike Flynn）是最新抵达的人之一。

He moved to Englewood in Sarasota County.

他搬到了萨拉索塔县的恩格尔伍德。

You might remember Mike Flynn.

你可能还记得迈克·弗林。

President Trump appointed him as national security advisor, and he lasted only 23 days in that job.

特朗普总统任命他为国家安全顾问，但他只任职了 23 天。

He got kicked out after getting in trouble for lying to the FBI about talking to the Russian ambassador.

他因在与俄罗斯大使交谈的问题上向联邦调查局撒谎而陷入麻烦后被开除。

In Florida, he started a whole new life, waging a kind of information war and a political war on the far right.

在佛罗里达州，他开始了全新的生活，在极右翼发动了一场信息战和政治战。

And Sarasota is the right place for a guy like that to live out his dreams.

萨拉索塔是这样的人实现梦想的正确地方。

Steve Bannon, the co-founder of Moms for Liberty, the headquarters of Rumble, of Truth Social-- I could go on-- Charlie Kirk, Patrick Byrne, Doug Logan, they all have ties to Sarasota County.

史蒂夫·班农 (Steve Bannon)，Moms for Liberty 的联合创始人，Rumble 的总部，Truth Social 的总部——我可以继续说下去——查理·柯克 (Charlie Kirk)、帕特里克·伯恩 (Patrick Byrne)、道格·洛根 (Doug Logan)，他们都与萨拉索塔县有联系。

Tucker Carlson is just down the coast.

塔克卡尔森就在海岸边。

For whatever reason, Sarasota County, which in the past was a wealthy, white area for old-fashioned pro-business Republican types, has now become a place where these MAGA right wing rich guys have set about building their ideal version of society.

不管出于什么原因，萨拉索塔县过去是老式亲商共和党人的富裕白人地区，现在已经成为这些“MAGA”右翼富人开始建设他们理想社会的地方。

And at Flynn's side, there's this one guy in particular who's been bounding from one project to the next, creating this little parallel universe down there that we're going to talk about in this next story because this guy's a pioneer in this movement that you're going to be hearing a lot about in this next election.

在弗林身边，有一个特别的人，他从一个项目跳到下一个项目，在那里创造了一个小小的平行宇宙，我们将在下一个故事中讨论它，因为这个人是这场运动的先驱，你将在下一次选举中听到很多关于这个运动的内容。

Maybe you've already heard of it, medical freedom.

也许你已经听说过它：医疗自由。

In Ron DeSantis' case for being president, "Make America Florida," medical freedom is a big item.

在罗恩·德桑蒂斯竞选总统的“打造佛罗里达州美国”中，医疗自由是一项重要内容。

One of our producers, Zoe Chace, was very interested to understand its appeal and growing popularity, and spent some time down in Sarasota County.

我们的制作人之一佐伊·查斯（Zoe Chace）非常有兴趣了解它的吸引力和日益增长的受欢迎程度，并在萨拉索塔县呆了一段时间。

The guy I'm here to talk about is named Vic Mellor.

我在这里要谈论的这个人名叫维克·梅勒（Vic Mellor）。

He has a bunch of money, likes to spend it on politics.

他有很多钱，喜欢把钱花在政治上。

Just a few months ago, he paid $3 million for a building in Sarasota County, 959 East Venice Avenue.

就在几个月前，他斥资 300 万美元购买了萨拉索塔县东威尼斯大道 959 号的一栋建筑。

And then here's the studio-- Zoe Chace He's teaming up with Mike Flynn and some others to use it for this hybrid office down here.

然后是工作室 - Zoe Chace 他正在与 Mike Flynn 和其他一些人合作，将其用于这里的混合办公室。

One side of it is a production house for the launch of Flynn's upcoming podcast.

它的一侧是一个制作室，用于推出弗林即将推出的播客。

And then here's the studio where General Flynn is going to start his--

然后这里是弗林将军将要开始他的工作室——

This is really nice.

这真的很好。

Like, most people with their little shows, it's not like this.

就像大多数人的小表演一样，事情不是这样的。

This is a big studio space.

这是一个很大的工作室空间。

Well, I guess it's good that I have no experience in it, then, huh?

嗯，我想我没有这方面的经验也很好，不是吗？

So I come out swinging hard.

所以我出来时会用力挥杆。

Well, what would you expect for General Flynn?

那么，您对弗林将军有何期望？

He's going to have top of the line-- I'm going to give him top-of-the-line everything, you know?

他将拥有顶级的——我将为他提供顶级的一切，你知道吗？

Vic is a big guy.

维克是个大人物。

He ducks through doors.

他躲进门。

He's tall.

他很高。

He's wide.

他很宽。

He dresses like he just walked off a construction site, which he did.

他的穿着就像刚从建筑工地走出来一样，他确实做到了。

He runs a precast concrete business.

他经营一家预制混凝土企业。

He makes the huge blocks of hollowed-out concrete that make up buildings.

他制造了构成建筑物的巨大的空心混凝土块。

He dreams big, which brings me to the other half of 959 East Venice, the part I really want to tell you about.

他的梦想很大，这让我想到了东威尼斯 959 号的另一半，这是我真正想告诉你的部分。

The place where Vic and his movement are inventing something new.

维克和他的运动在这里发明了一些新东西。

Specifically, the other half of this building is going to be a medical clinic, We The People Health and Wellness Center.

具体来说，这座建筑的另一半将是一个医疗诊所，即我们人民健康与保健中心。

"We the People," drawn in Founding Fathers cursive on the big glass doors.

大玻璃门上用开国元勋的草书写着“我们人民”。

A clinic that caters to people who did not get the COVID vaccine, who do not trust the medical establishment, and want a place to go where they can be treated by people who think like they do.

这家诊所为那些没有接种新冠疫苗、不信任医疗机构、希望能得到与他们想法相同的人治疗的人提供服务。

It's about 10,000 square foot.

面积约为10,000平方英尺。

This will be the IV room.

这将是静脉注射室。

Vic shows me the exam rooms, the carved-out area for pediatrics, the adult examination area, the soft-gray IV-drip room where you can sit quietly and get liquid vitamins pumped into your arms.

维克带我参观了检查室、儿科专区、成人检查区、浅灰色的静脉滴注室，您可以安静地坐着，将液体维生素注射到手臂中。

The whole building is 10,000 square feet.

整座建筑占地10,000平方英尺。

This is roughly half.

这大约是一半。

It opens in September, two to three nurses, maybe a primary care doctor, one pediatrician, for sure, at least to start.

它于九月开业，至少在开始时有两到三名护士，也许还有一名初级保健医生，一名儿科医生。

I wanted to take a look at this building of Vic's because it captures so much to me about this moment in American politics, this half ivermectin clinic, half Mike Flynn flagship podcast studio, it's symbolic of a new momentum on the right, where people took certain lessons from the pandemic-- mandates are bad.

我想看一下维克的这座建筑，因为它对我来说捕捉到了美国政治这一时刻的很多信息，这个一半是伊维菌素诊所，一半是迈克·弗林旗舰播客工作室，它象征着右翼的新势头，人们从大流行中吸取了某些教训——强制措施很糟糕。

Vaccines are suspect.

疫苗值得怀疑。

The scientific community is out to get you.

科学界正在抓捕你。

The government telling you what to do in health care is dangerous-- and they're building a movement from those principles.

政府告诉你在医疗保健方面应该做什么是危险的——他们正在根据这些原则发起一场运动。

959 East Venice is like an early fort on that frontier, a beachhead for this political movement that's coming into the mainstream called "medical freedom." Also, I'm not going to say this is uniquely Florida, but it's pretty Florida-shaped what happened here.

959东威尼斯就像该边境的一座早期堡垒，是一场名为“医疗自由”的政治运动的滩头堡，该运动正在进入主流。另外，我不会说这是佛罗里达州独有的，但这里发生的事情很符合佛罗里达州的风格。

So let me get into Vic's story and the experience of some of these other people in Sarasota to explain how this building came to be.

因此，让我通过维克的故事和萨拉索塔其他一些人的经历来解释这座建筑是如何形成的。

Vic is a new political convert, and he's newly flush.

维克是一位新的政治皈依者，而且他刚刚发红。

Vic is not one of the new arrivals in Sarasota County.

维克并不是萨拉索塔县的新移民之一。

He's in his early 50s now.

他现在50出头了。

He's been here 30 years.

他在这里已经30年了。

He started with nothing and built a successful concrete business.

他白手起家，创办了一家成功的混凝土企业。

He was a big Fox News watcher with a recent history of bringing new things into the world that he thinks should exist.

他是福克斯新闻的忠实观察者，最近将他认为应该存在的新事物带入了世界。

Like before he built this clinic, a few years ago, feeling antsy and agitated about the state of the world with some money to burn, he decided to buy some land a few miles away from his place in Venice.

就像几年前他建立这家诊所之前一样，他对世界的现状感到焦躁不安，手上还有一些钱要烧，他决定在离他在威尼斯的住处几英里远的地方买一些土地。

And I said, this is what I'm going to do.

我说，这就是我要做的。

I am going to open up a campground for kids.

我要为孩子们​​开设一个露营地。

It's going to be based on the Constitution with an emphasis on the Second Amendment.

它将以宪法为基础，重点是第二修正案。

So while the kids are out there, we're going to teach them gun safety.

因此，当孩子们在外面时，我们将教他们枪支安全知识。

And then we're going to bring them out to the range, and they can be proficient, shooting and such, and--

然后我们会把他们带到射击场，他们可以很熟练，射击等等，而且——

Teach kids how to shoot?

教孩子怎么射击？

Vic Mellor Teach kids how to shoot, absolutely.

维克·梅勒绝对是教孩子们如何射击。

But it's a day camp too.

但这也是日间营。

People just go out.

人们只是出去。

I got water slides, and I got all these other little adventure things they do.

我有水滑梯，还有他们所做的所有其他小冒险活动。

We got-- there's a big lake with gators, and fish, and zip lines.

我们有一个大湖，里面有鳄鱼、鱼和滑索。

And we zip line right over the gators.

我们就在鳄鱼上方滑索。

It's--

这是——

Yeah, absolutely.

是的，绝对是。

Zoe Chace He calls it The Hollow because it's a swampy, hollowy place, and after the hollow-core concrete blocks he manufactures.

Zoe Chace 他称其为“空心”，因为这是一个沼泽、空心的地方，以他制造的空心混凝土块命名。

When I was out there, it was like a lost boy paradise, these kind of wild gardens around, bouncing hanging bridges that were stretching over the water between a few islands, grape trellises, flowers, bushes.

当我在那里的时候，它就像一个迷失的男孩天堂，周围有这样的野生花园，弹跳的吊桥在几个岛屿、葡萄架、鲜花和灌木丛之间延伸在水面上。

There's a gator right there.

那里有一只鳄鱼。

Zoe Chace Where?

佐伊·切斯在哪里？

Ah!

啊!

Holy--

圣哉——

What, are you scared?

什么，你害怕吗？

That's like a 6 or 7-footer.

这就像一个6或7英尺的人。

That's a baby.

那是一个婴儿。

After he built The Hollow, Vic met Mike Flynn, which changed his life.

在建造 The Hollow 后，维克遇到了迈克·弗林，这改变了他的生活。

And these days, they talk or see each other every day.

如今，他们每天都会交谈或见面。

Vic helps Flynn get all his projects off the ground and helps fund some of them.

维克帮助弗林启动了他的所有项目，并为其中一些项目提供了资金。

I would call Mike Flynn a father figure in Vic's life.

我认为迈克·弗林是维克生命中的父亲。

He doesn't disagree with that.

他并不同意这一点。

He grew up without a dad in Woonsocket, Rhode Island.

他在罗德岛州文索基特长大，没有父亲。

When General Flynn showed up in Sarasota-- that's how Vic always refers to him, as General-- it organized Vic's ambient angst about Trump witch hunts in the media and his jones about the Second Amendment into something much closer to Flynn's worldview, which amounts to a comprehensive One World Order conspiracy aimed at him and other Trump loyalists.

当弗林将军出现在萨拉索塔时——维克总是这样称呼他，作为将军——它把维克对特朗普在媒体上政治迫害的周围焦虑和他对第二修正案的嘲笑组织成更接近弗林的世界观，这相当于针对他和其他特朗普忠诚者的全面同一个世界秩序阴谋。

Flynn didn't have to push Vic very far.

弗林不必把维克逼得太远。

Vic was at January 6.

维克当时是 1 月 6 日。

He didn't go into the Capitol building, he says, but he's totally unrepentant about it.

他说，他没有进入国会大厦，但他对此完全不悔。

He's still convinced the election was stolen from Trump.

他仍然坚信选举是从特朗普那里窃取的。

OK, so the creation of this clinic at 959 East Venice, it all begins back in 2020, during the pandemic.

好吧，这家诊所在东威尼斯 959 号的创建，一切都要追溯到 2020 年大流行期间。

Vic chafed against the lockdowns and the masks.

维克对封锁和口罩感到恼火。

And lucky for him, he lives in Florida, where the governor, Ron DeSantis, issued an executive order pretty early on in the summer of 2021 that told school districts to stop forcing kids to wear masks in school.

对他来说幸运的是，他住在佛罗里达州，那里的州长罗恩·德桑蒂斯 (Ron DeSantis) 很早就在 2021 年夏天发布了一项行政命令，要求学区停止强迫孩子们在学校戴口罩。

The school board in Sarasota didn't want to follow the governor's order.

萨拉索塔的学校董事会不想遵守州长的命令。

They wanted to keep kids in masks.

他们想让孩子们戴着口罩。

Vic's got two young children in that school district.

维克有两个年幼的孩子在那个学区。

So at that point, all the parents, everyone freaked out.

所以那一刻，所有的父母，每个人都吓坏了。

And they made all these groups, and everyone's meeting all over the place, just trying to organize and do whatever.

他们成立了所有这些团体，每个人都在各地开会，只是想组织起来并做任何事情。

And then someone just said, hey, how about we all just meet at The Hollow?

然后有人就说，嘿，我们都在 The Hollow 见面怎么样？

And I was like, OK, bring them all down.

我当时想，好吧，把他们都打倒。

Let's do this.

让我们这样做吧。

At this big meeting, Vic meets a very essential partner in this whole endeavor, the other person this story's about, one of the newly politicized moms of Sarasota County.

在这次大型会议上，维克遇到了整个努力中非常重要的合作伙伴，也就是这个故事的另一个人，萨拉索塔县新近政治化的妈妈之一。

Small but mighty Tanya Parus, petite blonde, pink nail polish, with a bustling just-left-the-PTA-meeting energy.

小而强大的坦尼娅·帕鲁斯 (Tanya Parus)，身材娇小，金发碧眼，涂着粉红色指甲油，充满了家长会会议结束后的活力。

She's got a 5- and a 7-year-old in school.

她有一个 5 岁和一个 7 岁的孩子在学校。

I did not want my children to be in masks.

我不想让我的孩子们戴着口罩。

They did not want it.

他们不想要它。

My son was breaking out in all these disgusting things, and I have psoriasis.

我的儿子爆发了所有这些令人厌恶的事情，而我患有牛皮癣。

So I was like, oh, my god, what if he's getting-- he's got psoriasis and it's coming out?

所以我就想，哦，天哪，如果他得了牛皮癣，而且牛皮癣又出来了怎么办？

So I was getting really upset.

所以我真的很沮丧。

So I was like--

所以我就像——

From the mask, you think?

从面具来看，你觉得呢？

Tanya Parus From the mask.

坦尼娅帕鲁斯 从面具。

And he was not being sanitary with it.

而且他对此并不卫生。

He's--

他是——

[INTERPOSING VOICES] Tanya Parus Yeah, exactly.

[插话] Tanya Parus 是的，没错。

And then now I have a kindergartner coming in who definitely can't wear a mask.

现在我有一个幼儿园的孩子进来，他绝对不能戴口罩。

I mean, he was flicking them across the room, dropping them on the floor.

我的意思是，他把它们弹过房间，扔到地板上。

I saw absolutely no purpose in him wearing it.

我完全看不出他戴它的目的。

Drop it on the bathroom floor and then put it on his face, and I'm like, that's absolutely disgusting.

把它扔到浴室地板上，然后放在他脸上，我想，这绝对是恶心的。

So Vic and a bunch of parents, Tanya among them, decided to organize a big mask waiver signing out at The Hollow, where doctors would give them notes so their kids wouldn't have to wear masks in school.

因此，维克和包括塔尼娅在内的一群家长决定在 The Hollow 组织一次大规模的口罩豁免签字仪式，医生会给他们开具便条，这样他们的孩子就不必在学校戴口罩了。

Tanya is a former EMT.

塔尼娅是一名前急救人员。

She was in a trailer they installed out there taking vitals before they met with the doctors.

在他们会见医生之前，她在他们安装的拖车里进行生命体征检查。

And we started it early in the morning, and cars just started coming in, just pouring in, and pouring in, and pouring in.

我们一早就开始了，汽车开始进来，涌入，涌入，涌入。

And it's hot.

而且很热。

It's freaking hot, and everyone's waiting outside.

天气太热了，大家都在外面等着。

So I would poke my head out.

于是我就探出头来。

And I'm like, holy crap.

我就像，天哪。

There was-- I mean, there was so many people lined up, I couldn't see the end of the line.

我的意思是，有很多人在排队，我看不到队伍的尽头。

And it wrapped all the way around.

而且它一直缠绕着。

It was completely full of people.

里面完全挤满了人。

To be clear, the thing they're all fighting against, wearing masks in school, the science shows masks are effective at slowing the spread of COVID if you wear them.

需要明确的是，他们都在反对在学校戴口罩，但科学表明，如果戴口罩，可以有效减缓新冠病毒的传播。

This mask waiver event at The Hollow was a turning point.

The Hollow 的这次免口罩活动是一个转折点。

Once Vic saw how many of them there were, he realized, we could be doing a lot more here.

当维克看到有多少人后，他意识到我们可以在这里做更多的事情。

This is a full-fledged political movement that I can throw myself into.

这是一场我可以全身心投入的成熟政治运动。

Tanya, meanwhile, became this connector between these apostate doctors and patients who didn't want to go to regular hospitals.

与此同时，坦尼娅成为了这些叛教的医生和不想去正规医院的患者之间的联络人。

In late 2021 and into the next year, if you wanted a doctor who would see you without a mask or wouldn't push the vaccine, she could give you names.

在 2021 年底和明年，如果你想要一位不戴口罩就诊或不会推销疫苗的医生，她可以给你名字。

People talk to each other.

人们互相交谈。

They say, hey, Tanya hooked me up with another doctor, whomever.

他们说，嘿，塔尼娅给我介绍了另一位医生，无论是谁。

It's like a whole parallel medical system.

这就像一个完整的并行医疗系统。

It felt like a totally underground medical system.

感觉就像一个完全地下的医疗系统。

And then I did a lot of the vetting for these doctors because they were so busy with patients and dealing with people who needed ivermectin and had COVID.

然后我对这些医生进行了很多审查，因为他们非常忙于与患者打交道，并与需要伊维菌素和患有新冠病毒的人打交道。

Getting ivermectin became a huge focus of this emerging parallel medical system.

获得伊维菌素成为这个新兴并行医疗系统的一大焦点。

A surprising amount of the emotion driving this movement has to do with ivermectin.

推动这一运动的大量情感与伊维菌素有关。

You probably remember ivermectin, the horse drug.

您可能还记得伊维菌素，马药。

People started taking huge doses to cure themselves of COVID at one point.

人们一度开始服用大剂量的药物来治愈自己的新冠病毒。

But the science says ivermectin doesn't work for COVID.

但科学表明伊维菌素对新冠病毒无效。

It's an amazing drug for other things like parasites, not COVID.

这是一种神奇的药物，可以治疗寄生虫等其他疾病，但不能治疗新冠病毒。

No matter, though.

不过没关系。

Doctors on YouTube were promoting things like ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine as miracle cures, quick, cheap, easy solves for COVID.

YouTube 上的医生正在宣传伊维菌素和羟氯喹等药物，认为它们是治疗新冠肺炎的灵丹妙药，快速、廉价、简单。

You may remember that YouTube and Twitter and Facebook removed videos because it wasn't true, and it got put on that shortlist of designated official misinformation that the tech companies would actually do something about.

你可能还记得，YouTube、Twitter 和 Facebook 删除了视频，因为它不真实，并且它被列入了指定的官方错误信息的候选名单中，科技公司实际上会对此采取行动。

But when those ivermectin-loving doctors got shut down, they only got more famous within the medical freedom movement, and set up shop on alternative media platforms like Rumble and Telegram.

但当那些热爱伊维菌素的医生被关闭后，他们在医疗自由运动中变得更加出名，并在 Rumble 和 Telegram 等替代媒体平台上开店。

They created a whole alternate ecosystem of podcasts and podcast networks.

他们创建了一个完整的播客和播客网络替代生态系统。

While he's an amazing person who has been persecuted by the COVID police like no one else.

虽然他是一个了不起的人，却像其他人一样受到新冠警察的迫害。

Thank you for joining me, Dr. Eric Nepute.

感谢您加入我的行列，埃里克·内普特博士。

How are you doing?

你好吗？

Brigade surgeon while serving in the army, Dr. Rashid Buttar.

在军队服役期间的旅外科医生，拉希德·布塔尔博士。

Today, we are speaking, yet again, to an eminent expert.

今天，我们再次与一位著名专家交谈。

The basic conspiracy theory articulated on a lot of these shows is this-- COVID was a man-made created virus masterminded by Bill Gates and the World Health Organization in order to control the world's population.

许多这些节目所阐明的基本阴谋论是这样的——新冠病毒是一种人造病毒，由比尔·盖茨和世界卫生组织策划，目的是控制世界人口。

Vaccines were pushed in order to kill us.

疫苗的推出是为了杀死我们。

Lockdowns were used in order to control us.

封锁是为了控制我们。

Moderna, Pfizer, they're in on it.

Moderna、辉瑞，他们都参与其中。

They want to kill off ivermectin because it's a cheap alternative to what they're selling.

他们想要消灭伊维菌素，因为它是他们所销售产品的廉价替代品。

The conspiracy has a name.

这个阴谋有一个名字。

It's called The Great Reset.

这就是所谓的“大重置”。

And that's what Flynn will be covering on his show down the hall from the clinic, among other things.

这就是弗林将在诊所大厅里的节目中报道的内容以及其他内容。

General Flynn, back to you, sir.

弗林将军，回到您身边，长官。

What is this vaccination campaign truly all about, for anybody who may be hearing this for the first time?

对于第一次听到这个消息的人来说，这次疫苗接种运动到底是为了什么呢？

What we are facing is, we are facing a globalist takeover of every freedom-loving country in the world, and they're using this vaccination to control us.

我们面临的是，我们面临着全球主义者接管世界上每一个热爱自由的国家，他们正在利用这种疫苗来控制我们。

When I ask Vic and Tanya straight-up if they believe in the Great Reset, they were both like, I'm not going to cop to that exact thing, like all the stuff you said.

当我直接问维克和坦尼娅是否相信大重置时，他们都说，我不会承认那件事，就像你所说的那样。

Specifically, like, maybe it wasn't Bill Gates.

具体来说，也许不是比尔·盖茨。

But, yes, there was a power grab, and there was money to be made.

但是，是的，有权力争夺，有钱可赚。

And if you think about that, that doesn't mean that you're a conspiracy theorist.

如果你想一想，这并不意味着你是一个阴谋论者。

That just means that there's greedy people in the world, which we all know.

这只是意味着世界上有贪婪的人，这是我们都知道的。

It doesn't mean that I'm a bad person because I believe our government is more corrupt than you do.

这并不意味着我是一个坏人，因为我相信我们的政府比你们更腐败。

This is a patriotic movement.

这是一场爱国运动。

It is.

这是。

I'm going to say, fuck this globalist shit, you know?

我想说，操这个全球主义狗屎，你知道吗？

Seriously.

严重地。

I'm totally against it.

我完全反对。

It makes sense to me that Tanya was the person who threw herself into this project of building this alternative medical system, and now running the We The People Clinic at 959 East Venice.

对我来说，Tanya 全身心投入到建立替代医疗系统的项目中并在东威尼斯 959 号经营我们人民诊所是有道理的。

She's definitely a take-matters-into-your-own-hands type.

她绝对是一个凡事亲力亲为的人。

And she feels like doctors haven't listened to her in the past when she needed them.

她觉得医生过去在她需要的时候没有听她的。

I basically have a 21-year-old son, and I have a 9 and a 7.

我基本上有一个21岁的儿子，我有一个9岁和一个7岁。

So I had 13 miscarriages in between.

所以这期间我流产了 13 次。

Oh, my god.

我的天啊。

Tanya Parus Yeah.

坦尼娅·帕鲁斯 是的。

That was-- yeah, that was awful.

那是——是的，那太糟糕了。

That was an awful time in my life.

那是我生命中一段可怕的时光。

But--

但是——

It was awful.

太糟糕了。

So, obviously, and I'm research, research, research, research.

所以，显然，我正在研究、研究、研究、研究。

That's all I do.

这就是我所做的一切。

What I do is I dig in.

我所做的就是挖掘。

You wanted to solve that, figure that out.

你想解决这个问题，想办法解决这个问题。

I like to solve everything, try to at least have an understanding for myself.

我喜欢解决所有问题，尝试至少对自己有一个了解。

Nine miscarriages in, Tanya seemed to find a doctor who figured out something that might help.

经过九次流产后，塔尼娅似乎找到了一位医生，他找到了一些可能有帮助的方法。

And then she had two kids right in a row, the kids who years later would go on to flick masks onto the bathroom floor during COVID.

然后她连续生了两个孩子，几年后，这些孩子在新冠疫情期间继续将口罩扔到浴室地板上。

I didn't like that it took me nine miscarriages before anyone cared to figure out what the heck was wrong with me.

我不喜欢的是，我流产了九次之后，才有人想弄清楚我到底出了什么问题。

What we're chronicling here, remember, is the establishment of a headquarters of this new MAGA-fied medical freedom movement at 959 East Venice Avenue, half podcast studio, half medical clinic.

请记住，我们在这里记录的是这个新的MAGA-fied医疗自由运动在东威尼斯大道959号建立的总部，一半是播客工作室，一半是医疗诊所。

And the next big moment in the story of the creation of this building happens at arguably the opposite of this place, the main hospital in the area, Sarasota Memorial Hospital.

这座建筑的创建故事中的下一个重要时刻可以说发生在这个地方的对面，即该地区的主要医院萨拉索塔纪念医院。

Not long after the mask mandate event at The Hollow, Vic started up a political organizing company to support what he calls "freedom candidates," America-first candidates, essentially, Trumpists.

在 The Hollow 举行的口罩授权活动后不久，维克创办了一家政治组织公司，以支持他所谓的“自由候选人”，即美国优先的候选人，本质上是特朗普主义者。

He called it The Hollow 2A and threw a lot of money into it.

他将其命名为“The Hollow 2A”，并投入了大量资金。

They supported a slate of school board candidates who swept into office.

他们支持了一批成功入职的学校董事会候选人。

They also backed another group of candidates for a local hospital.

他们还支持当地一家医院的另一组候选人。

Sarasota Memorial Hospital is governed by a publicly elected board, and they supported four candidates who were aligned with this medical freedom movement.

萨拉索塔纪念医院由公众选举的董事会管理，他们支持四名与医疗自由运动保持一致的候选人。

These candidates were basically anti-everything the hospital was doing, anti the CDC protocols they used, anti the vaccines they administered, upset that the hospital didn't offer ivermectin and other alternative medicines to patients who wanted it to treat COVID.

这些候选人基本上反对医院所做的一切，反对他们使用的疾病预防控制中心协议，反对他们注射的疫苗，对医院没有向想要治疗新冠病毒的患者提供伊维菌素和其他替代药物感到不安。

They kind of wanted to tear the whole place down, and they called for a big investigation into everything that had transpired during COVID.

他们有点想把整个地方拆掉，他们呼吁对新冠疫情期间发生的一切进行大规模调查。

Three of their preferred candidates won, not enough to control the board, enough to make some noise.

他们青睐的三名候选人获胜，虽然不足以控制董事会，但足以引起一些轰动。

The public hospital has public meetings every month, and you can imagine how those have been going.

公立医院每个月都有公开会议，你可以想象那些会议进行得怎么样。

So let's begin our meeting.

那么让我们开始我们的会议吧。

Zoe Chace In February of this year, 2023, the board was delivering the results of a three-year review of the hospital's performance during the COVID pandemic.

Zoe Chace 今年 2023 年 2 月，董事会公布了对医院在新冠病毒大流行期间的绩效进行为期三年的审查结果。

The report was glowing.

报告内容精彩纷呈。

The hospital's COVID-19 death rate was about 25% lower than state and national averages.

该医院的 COVID-19 死亡率比州和全国平均水平低约 25%。

Hospital stays were shorter too, which is a pretty great verdict for a place full of elderly people.

住院时间也更短，这对于一个充满老年人的地方来说是一个相当好的结论。

Vic and The Hollow crew didn't believe those results at all.

维克和空心团队根本不相信这些结果。

They started pushing for a completely independent investigation of the hospital's COVID practices.

他们开始推动对医院的新冠疫情做法进行完全独立的调查。

Kind of like those forensic audits that people who thought the election was stolen wanted after 2020.

有点像那些认为选举被窃取的人在 2020 年之后想要进行的法证审计。

Demands to comb through every ballot, every gear of the voting machines.

要求梳理每张选票、投票机的每一个装置。

But this, of course, was way more personal because there was all this grief and pain mixed in with the suspicion.

但这当然是更私人的事情，因为所有的悲伤和痛苦都与怀疑交织在一起。

When we had people getting up there crying and saying, all we want to do is, I want answers.

当人们站起来哭着说，我们想做的就是，我想要答案。

I want to sit down with the-- I want to understand why my husband died, why you wouldn't let me come in there, why you wouldn't use ivermectin.

我想坐下来谈谈——我想了解为什么我丈夫死了，为什么你不让我进去，为什么你不使用伊维菌素。

Why did you give her remdesivir when I told you not to give her remdesivir?

当我告诉你不要给她瑞德西韦时，你为什么给她瑞德西韦？

All of these things were coming up.

所有这些事情都发生了。

My son was 39 years of age and ended up in the hospital.

我儿子当时 39 岁，最后住进了医院。

"My son was 39 years of age when he went into the hospital," this one woman is saying up at the mic.

“我儿子入院时已经 39 岁了，”一位女士对着麦克风说道。

We weren't allowed with him.

我们不被允许和他在一起。

He was alone.

他独自一人。

He was alone.

他独自一人。

And we had a prescription of ivermectin that was very hard to fill.

我们开的伊维菌素处方很难配药。

We finally got it filled.

我们终于把它填满了。

We brought it in, and they refused it.

我们把它带进来，他们拒绝了。

And it's like, where is the team anymore?

就像，团队在哪里？

There's no team.

没有团队。

It's like, doctors are making the decisions for all of us.

就像医生正在为我们所有人做出决定。

"It's like the doctors are making decisions for all of us."

“这就像医生在为我们所有人做出决定。”

They said his organs are failing.

他们说他的器官正在衰竭。

He's 39.

他39岁了。

What do you mean his organs are failing?

你说他的器官正在衰竭是什么意思？

We asked for ivermectin.

我们要了伊维菌素。

I had my lawyer on the phone.

我的律师正在打电话。

"They said his organs are failing.

“他们说他的器官正在衰竭。

He's 39.

他39岁了。

What do you mean his organs are failing?

你说他的器官正在衰竭是什么意思？

We asked for ivermectin.

我们要了伊维菌素。

I had my lawyer on the phone.

我的律师正在打电话。

They refused.

他们拒绝了。

All the nurses and doctors," she goes on, "I know how hard you work.

所有的护士和医生，”她继续说道，“我知道你们工作有多努力。

But the CDC protocol, it's killing people."

但疾病预防控制中心的方案，它正在杀人。”

Dr. Manny Gordillo ran the COVID response at the hospital.

曼尼·戈迪略 (Manny Gordillo) 医生负责医院的新冠疫情应对工作。

He was at that hearing, but didn't speak.

他出席了听证会，但没有发言。

Ivermectin came up in so much of the testimony that I wanted to talk to him about that.

证词中大量提到了伊维菌素，我想和他谈谈这一点。

It was a stand-in for so many things, but it was also just a drug, a relatively harmless drug.

它是很多东西的替代品，但它也只是一种药物，一种相对无害的药物。

Why not just give them the ivermectin?

为什么不直接给他们伊维菌素呢？

So ivermectin, to me, is just a symbol.

所以伊维菌素对我来说只是一个象征。

It's a word.

这是一个词。

When they did properly done studies, they showed that it is no better than placebo.

当他们进行适当的研究时，他们发现它并不比安慰剂更好。

Large studies, they show no benefit of the thing.

大量研究表明，这并没有什么好处。

So then, how are we going to be-- after the properly done study showed that there is no benefit, how are we going to be telling people, oh, yeah, the thing doesn't work, but I'm still going to give it to you?

那么，在正确完成的研究表明没有任何好处之后，我们将如何告诉人们，哦，是的，这东西不起作用，但我仍然会把它给你？

So we're not in medicine giving people placebo and stuff like that, especially when it distracts from giving the proper medications.

因此，在医学领域，我们不会给人们服用安慰剂之类的东西，尤其是当它分散了人们对正确药物的注意力时。

That's what drives him nuts, when people who have been lied to refuse remdesivir, which can work, and want ivermectin, which does not.

这就是让他发疯的原因，因为有人被骗拒绝接受有效的瑞德西韦，却想要伊维菌素，而伊维菌素无效。

Manny Gordillo Which just make no sense.

曼尼·戈迪罗 这毫无意义。

So then it becomes a problem.

那么这就成了一个问题。

This is the unbridgeable divide between the medical professionals and the medical freedom people in this case.

这就是本案中医疗专业人士与医疗自由人士之间不可逾越的鸿沟。

To the activists, it's bad medicine to not give ivermectin.

对于活动人士来说，不给予伊维菌素是一剂良药。

To the professionals, it's bad medicine to give it.

对于专业人士来说，这是不好的药。

There's not a middle ground to be had.

没有中间立场可取。

Dr. Gordillo is an infectious disease specialist, and he's had many of these confrontations-- conversations-- with family members demanding alternative COVID treatments over the past few years.

Gordillo 医生是一名传染病专家，在过去几年里，他与家人进行了多次此类对抗和对话，要求采取替代的新冠治疗方法。

It was rough running the hospital's COVID response.

医院的新冠疫情应对工作很艰难。

He'd coped with death threats against his family, protests outside the ICU.

他曾应对过针对家人的死亡威胁和重症监护室外的抗议活动。

He'd work 100 hours a week.

他每周工作 100 小时。

It was hard on his marriage.

他的婚姻很艰难。

His wife was like, these patients hate you, and you're still going to work for them?

他的妻子说，这些病人恨你，你还要为他们工作吗？

What kind of a person are you?

你是一个什么样的人？

I thought what happened at the meeting might make him mad.

我想会议上发生的事情可能会让他生气。

I mean, I was frustrated more than mad because by that time, I knew what the strategy of these people was.

我的意思是，我感到沮丧而不是生气，因为到那时，我知道这些人的策略是什么。

I was mad at the people that did the manipulation.

我对那些进行操纵的人感到愤怒。

I wasn't mad at the patients.

我没有生病人的气。

The patients, in the end, they are victims from the manipulators.

患者最终成为操纵者的受害者。

Dr. Gordillo is from Peru, from a place he says the choices were becoming a fisherman or a priest.

戈迪略博士来自秘鲁，他说来自秘鲁的选择是成为一名渔民或一名牧师。

He tried something else, of course, but he still fishes.

当然，他尝试了其他事情，但他仍然钓鱼。

That's one of the things he loves about living in Sarasota.

这是他喜欢住在萨拉索塔的事情之一。

Something that surprised me, Dr. Gordillo did take a serious look at ivermectin.

令我惊讶的是，戈迪略博士确实认真研究了伊维菌素。

There were early studies showing it killed COVID in a test tube.

早期研究表明它可以在试管中杀死新冠病毒。

Problem was, the doses it took were much too high to give to a human being.

问题是，它所服用的剂量对于人类来说太高了。

He says, when people know they're going to die, people always ask for alternative treatments to all kinds of things, for HIV, cancer.

他说，当人们知道自己将要死去时，人们总是会寻求替代疗法来治疗艾滋病、癌症等各种疾病。

He's seen it a lot over 30 years.

30多年来他已经见过很多次了。

And his attitude is, if the treatment won't hurt you, sure, go get it elsewhere.

他的态度是，如果治疗不会伤害你，当然，去其他地方接受治疗。

If an alternative clinic gives out ivermectin, he's like, whatever, they're just not going to do it at his hospital.

如果其他诊所提供伊维菌素，他会想，无论如何，他们不会在他的医院这样做。

I personally don't have a problem with that.

我个人对此没有问题。

If people, in the end, they're going to decide on their own what they want to do, all I can do is give them advice on what is the best treatment as I know it, as our current state of science and the current state of knowledge tells us.

如果人们最终要自己决定想要做什么，我所能做的就是向他们提供我所知道的最佳治疗方法的建议，正如我们目前的科学状况和知识状况告诉我们的那样。

And that's the way science goes.

这就是科学的发展方向。

I let Tanya and Vic know Gordillo had taken a serious look at ivermectin.

我让坦尼娅和维克知道戈迪洛已经认真考虑了伊维菌素。

But when he did look at the studies that were done in America with thousands of people, it showed that basically ivermectin was a placebo.

但当他确实查看了在美国对数千人进行的研究时，发现伊维菌素基本上是一种安慰剂。

It was like no better than a sugar pill.

这就像一颗糖丸一样。

OK, so I would like to see this study that he's referring to, and I would like to see who did it.

好的，所以我想看看他提到的这项研究，我想看看是谁做的。

I'm sure it was cherry-picked because they knew this was coming up anyways.

我确信这是精心挑选的，因为他们知道无论如何都会出现这种情况。

His answer probably shouldn't surprise anyone who's been living in America lately.

他的回答可能不会让最近住在美国的任何人感到惊讶。

You have studies?

你有学业吗？

I have studies too.

我也有学业。

You have doctors?

你们有医生吗？

I have doctors that say the opposite.

我有一些医生的说法恰恰相反。

It's not just him.

不只是他。

He's a stand-in for thousands of epidemiologists.

他是数千名流行病学家的替身。

Like, is it possible that you guys, for all your best intentions, that you guys aren't properly evaluating scientific studies because you're not doctors?

就像，你们是否有可能因为你们不是医生而没有正确评估科学研究？

No, I'm not a doctor.

不，我不是医生。

I've taken ivermectin.

我吃过伊维菌素。

I know it works.

我知道它有效。

I don't need a doctor to tell me it works.

我不需要医生告诉我它有效。

I know it works.

我知道它有效。

I've seen other people take it who were sick-- really sick-- take it, and it works.

我见过其他生病的人服用它——真的病了——服用它，并且它有效。

So if he has the stance that it's still a placebo, then he's an idiot, and he's part of what's wrong with what's going on here.

因此，如果他坚持认为这仍然是安慰剂，那么他就是个白痴，他也是这里发生的问题的一部分。

Also, Zoe, I wanted to add that I've never once said that I was the reviewer of all these clinical studies.

另外，佐伊，我想补充一点，我从未说过我是所有这些临床研究的审稿人。

These studies that have come out, I've personally spoken with doctors who've been evaluating the studies.

这些研究已经发表，我亲自与评估这些研究的医生进行了交谈。

And that's where I'm getting my answers from.

这就是我得到答案的地方。

The two sides on this are so divided and both so embattled that the one thing they have in common is how misunderstood each side feels by the other.

双方在这件事上的分歧如此之大，双方都如此紧张，以至于他们的一个共同点就是每一方都被对方误解了。

At that board meeting at Sarasota Memorial Hospital, it was true for Dr. Gordillo.

在萨拉索塔纪念医院举行的董事会会议上，戈迪略博士确实如此。

It was true for Tanya.

对坦尼娅来说确实如此。

I don't think you'd understand unless you were on this side of the opinion gateway how shitty they made us feel.

我认为除非你站在意见门户的这一边，否则你不会理解他们让我们感到多么糟糕。

Because of what?

因为什么？

To me, it's like, why am I-- I just don't believe in mandates.

对我来说，这就像，为什么我——我只是不相信强制。

It doesn't mean that I'm a fascist.

这并不意味着我是法西斯分子。

It doesn't mean--

这并不意味着——

Tanya was like, OK, it's not going to work at Sarasota Memorial.

坦尼娅说，好吧，这在萨拉索塔纪念馆是行不通的。

No, they were never even going to offer an apology.

不，他们甚至不会道歉。

So I knew that there was-- we needed a place where people could go and be seen by a doctor, regardless.

所以我知道，无论如何，我们需要一个人们可以去看医生的地方。

So let's say another pandemic happens.

假设另一场流行病发生了。

Are you still comfortable going to see your doctor today?

今天你还方便去看医生吗？

No. Will you be in two years if another pandemic happens?

不会。如果两年后再次发生大流行，您会这样吗？

No.

不。

So we still need a place.

所以我们还需要一个地方。

And that was the whole point with Vic was, I just, more so than anything, told him, we've got to get something.

这就是维克的重点，我只是告诉他，我们必须得到一些东西。

We have to get something up.

我们必须做点什么。

We have to.

我们必须。

That's when the Medical Center at 959 East Venice Avenue became a reality.

就在此时，位于东威尼斯大道 959 号的医疗中心成为现实。

Florida's a great place to do this.

佛罗里达州是这样做的好地方。

Tanya's side is winning in Florida.

坦尼娅的球队正在佛罗里达州获胜。

In September 2021, DeSantis hired this vaccine-skeptical surgeon general to run Florida's response to the COVID pandemic, someone who altered a report's findings to claim the COVID vaccine had more adverse side effects than it actually has.

2021 年 9 月，德桑蒂斯聘请了这位对疫苗持怀疑态度的卫生局局长负责佛罗里达州应对新冠病毒大流行的工作，他篡改了一份报告的调查结果，声称新冠疫苗的不良副作用比实际情况更多。

DeSantis started publicly questioning the vaccines, saying they could be dangerous, and publicly deriding CDC protocols.

德桑蒂斯开始公开质疑这些疫苗，称它们可能很危险，并公开嘲笑疾病预防控制中心的协议。

This anti-vaccine agenda in Florida arguably had consequences.

佛罗里达州的这一反疫苗议程可以说产生了后果。

One study estimated 30,000 extra deaths just in Florida because people didn't get vaccinated.

一项研究估计，仅佛罗里达州就有 30,000 人因没有接种疫苗而额外死亡。

DeSantis also created this brand-new committee of physicians who would assess any federal health guidelines coming into the state.

德桑蒂斯还创建了这个全新的医生委员会，负责评估该州出台的任何联邦健康指南。

Dr. Gordillo at Sarasota Memorial Hospital calls this group radical, extremely right wing, outside of mainstream science.

萨拉索塔纪念医院的戈迪略博士称这个团体是激进的、极右翼的，脱离了主流科学。

The same day he announced that committee, DeSantis filed a petition with the Florida Supreme Court to convene a grand jury, a grand jury to look into things Pfizer and Moderna claimed about the vaccine, which he says were criminally misleading.

就在他宣布成立该委员会的同一天，德桑蒂斯向佛罗里达州最高法院提交了一份请愿书，要求召集一个大陪审团，由一个大陪审团来调查辉瑞和莫德纳关于疫苗的说法，他称这些说法具有刑事误导性。

Dr. Gordillo was like, what is happening?

Gordillo 博士说，发生了什么事？

Manny Gordillo It's just, the whole thing to me is just so politicized.

曼尼·戈迪洛：只是，整件事对我来说太政治化了。

And that upsets me because to see that coming from our governor, that's a little bit too much for me.

这让我感到不安，因为看到我们的州长这样说，对我来说有点太过分了。

Yeah, what do you mean, too much for you?

是的，你的意思是，对你来说太多了？

Yeah, I can't take it.

是啊，我受不了。

It's just-- [LAUGHS] Yeah, it's something that I never thought that it was going to happen in the United States.

只是——[笑]是的，我从来没有想过这会发生在美国。

Maybe if I'm living in North Korea, perhaps, or in China, but not in the US.

也许如果我住在朝鲜，或者在中国，但不是在美国。

In what sense?

从什么意义上说？

Manny Gordillo In the sense that we're telling people-- we're getting a radical view, and do not accept any other points of view, and then push the agenda.

曼尼·戈迪洛（Manny Gordillo）：从某种意义上说，我们正在告诉人们——我们正在得到一个激进的观点，并且不接受任何其他观点，然后推动议程。

DeSantis is now campaigning for president on his COVID policies, the way he, quote unquote, "fought back the Iron Curtain of Faucism." The language he uses seems designed to appeal to anyone who believes that COVID was a virus created to control us all.

德桑蒂斯现在正在竞选总统，宣传他的新冠病毒政策，他用这种方式“反击了野兽派的铁幕”。他使用的语言似乎是为了吸引那些相信新冠病毒是一种旨在控制我们所有人的病毒的人。

From the very beginning, we refused to let this state descend into some type of Faucian dystopia.

从一开始，我们就拒绝让这种状态陷入某种福斯式的反乌托邦。

In Florida, we reject the biomedical security state which erodes liberty, harms livelihoods, and divides our society.

在佛罗里达州，我们拒绝接受侵蚀自由、损害生计并分裂我们社会的生物医学安全国家。

We've stood for freedom across the board, and the result has been, Florida has defeated Faucism.

我们一直主张全面自由，结果是，佛罗里达州击败了野兽派。

Freedom has prevailed in the Sunshine State.

自由在阳光之州盛行。

Governor DeSantis just signed a set of four medical freedom bills into law two months ago.

两个月前，德桑蒂斯州长刚刚签署了四项医疗自由法案，使之成为法律。

The press release reads, "Permanent protections for Floridians from the biomedical security state." It not only outlaws any, quote, "discrimination based on vaccine status," it also protects a doctor's right to disagree with what DeSantis has called, "the preferred narrative of the medical community."

新闻稿写道：“永久保护佛罗里达人免受生物医学安全状态的影响。”它不仅禁止任何“基于疫苗状态的歧视”，还保护医生不同意德桑蒂斯所谓的“医学界首选叙述”的权利。

The legislation protects doctors from any discipline by state medical boards for spreading wrong information about, say, ivermectin or the vaccine.

该立法保护医生免受州医疗委员会因传播伊维菌素或疫苗等错误信息而受到的纪律处分。

That's good news for Vic's clinic and any doctors or nurses who choose to work there.

这对于维克诊所以及选择在那里工作的任何医生或护士来说都是个好消息。

DeSantis wants them to keep practicing here in Florida.

德桑蒂斯希望他们继续在佛罗里达州练习。

There have been a bunch of other medical freedom-type bills introduced in state legislatures around the country in the past year.

去年，全国各州立法机构还提出了一系列其他医疗自由类型的法案。

And you can see some Republican legislators citing what's happening in Florida as their inspiration.

你可以看到一些共和党立法者引用佛罗里达州发生的事情作为他们的灵感。

Some of these bills protect doctors who want to promote things like ivermectin for COVID.

其中一些法案保护那些想要推广伊维菌素等治疗新冠药物的医生。

Florida's law is far and away the most comprehensive.

佛罗里达州的法律无疑是最全面的。

It's the only one that prohibits, quote, "international health organizations"-- the ones Vic and Tanya are so worried about-- "from dictating state policy," for example.

例如，这是唯一一个禁止“国际卫生组织”（维克和坦尼娅非常担心的组织）“决定国家政策”的组织。

Florida stands alone.

佛罗里达州孤立无援。

As Vic prepares for his clinic's opening in September, he's part of a growing market for anti-vax enthusiasts.

当维克准备他的诊所于九月开业时，他成为了不断增长的反疫苗爱好者市场的一部分。

The medical freedom movement already has blood banks for the unvaccinated, a whole suite of unvaccinated fertility options, unvaccinated sperm, unvaccinated surrogacy, unvaccinated eggs, unvaccinated breast milk donation.

医疗自由运动已经为未接种疫苗的人提供了血库、一整套未接种疫苗的生育选择、未接种疫苗的精子、未接种疫苗的代孕、未接种疫苗的鸡蛋、未接种疫苗的母乳捐赠。

Unvaccinated dating apps are a thing.

未接种疫苗的约会应用程序是一个问题。

Mike Flynn recently soft-launched an unvaccinated online community called 4thePURE.

迈克·弗林 (Mike Flynn) 最近软启动了一个名为 4thePURE 的未接种疫苗的在线社区。

And Vic, he's already planning an outpatient surgery center next to 959 East Venice.

而维克，他已经计划在东威尼斯 959 号旁边建立一个门诊手术中心。

And he says word is getting out about the clinic.

他说有关诊所的消息已经传开。

My phone is blowing up with people that want to build with the same concept.

我的手机因想要以相同概念构建的人们而爆炸。

So--

所以——

Expansion.

扩张。

This is already-- I only got so much time in my day to do certain things that I'm already doing.

这已经是——我一天中只有这么多时间来做我已经在做的某些事情。

So probably in August, I'm going to really entertain expanding into clinics up and down the West Coast of Florida.

因此，可能在八月，我将真正考虑扩展到佛罗里达州西海岸上下的诊所。

Yeah, but it will be.

是的，但它会的。

It's going to be successful.

一定会成功的。

When Tanya showed me around the clinic, she pointed to the very front wall.

当塔尼娅带我参观诊所时，她指着最前面的墙。

To explain what she wants to put there, she tells me that when she staffed the clinic, she reached out to some of the doctors who'd lost their jobs for what she saw as telling the truth, going against the mainstream.

为了解释她想放在那里的内容，她告诉我，当她为诊所配备人员时，她联系了一些因她认为说实话、违背主流而失业的医生。

Like the pediatrician she hired, Dr. Renata Moon, she'd been terminated from her practice in Spokane, Washington, she says, for refusing to turn over paperwork showing she was vaccinated against COVID.

她说，和她雇用的儿科医生雷纳塔·穆恩博士一样，她也因拒绝交出证明她接种了新冠疫苗的文件而被解雇在华盛顿州斯波坎的诊所。

I really want to take the doctor's letters of termination, and frame them, and put them all along this wall.

我真的很想把医生的终止信拿下来，装进镜框，然后把它们都贴在墙上。

Whoa.

哇哦。

Tanya Parus Because I have probably about 20 or 30 of them that would send them to me.

Tanya Parus 因为我可能有大约 20 或 30 个人会寄给我。

It speaks volumes when you can see, sorry, we're terminating you because you refuse to stop treating with ivermectin.

当您看到“抱歉，因为您拒绝停止伊维菌素治疗，我们就要解雇您”时，这就很有意义了。

That's really showing what this place is about.

这确实展示了这个地方的意义。

It's about freedom.

这是关于自由的。

It's not ivermectin.

这不是伊维菌素。

It's the point of, the doctors should be able to prescribe whatever they feel the patient could benefit from.

重点是，医生应该能够开出他们认为患者可以受益的任何处方。

What she's describing is the world DeSantis wants.

她所描述的是德桑蒂斯想要的世界。

And Tanya and Vic, they're just living in it, thriving in it.

坦尼娅和维克，他们只是生活在其中，在其中茁壮成长。

DeSantis wants this for all of America.

德桑蒂斯希望全美国都能做到这一点。

He's out there selling it.

他在外面卖的。

Little problem he's having though, Vic anyway, he'd never go for DeSantis for president.

不过他遇到的问题并不大，无论如何，维克，他永远不会选择德桑蒂斯当总统。

He's a Trump guy.

他是特朗普的人。

Coming up, you finally figure out what your dream job is, and it more or less gets outlawed by the Florida legislature.

接下来，你终于弄清楚你梦想的工作是什么，它或多或少被佛罗里达州立法机关宣布为非法。

That's in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.

稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。

It's This American Life.

这就是美国生活。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Today's show, "The Florida Experiment." Ron DeSantis wants to make America more like Florida.

今天的节目“佛罗里达实验”。罗恩·德桑蒂斯想让美国变得更像佛罗里达州。

We go for a visit to see what that might be like.

我们去参观一下，看看那会是什么样子。

We've arrived at Act Two of our program.

我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。

Act two, Their Eyes Were Watching Tallahassee.

第二幕，他们的目光注视着塔拉哈西。

So probably the biggest part of Governor DeSantis' agenda focuses on education.

因此，德桑蒂斯州长议程的最大部分可能集中在教育上。

He and Florida Republicans have passed law after law defining what can and cannot be taught in the classroom.

他和佛罗里达州共和党人通过了一项又一项法律，定义了课堂上可以教授什么和不可以教授什么。

And that's not just in elementary and high schools.

这不仅仅是在小学和高中。

It's also in universities.

大学里也是如此。

This February, Florida Republicans in the statehouse introduced this big bill, HB 999 to limit what you can teach in every public college and university in the state.

今年 2 月，佛罗里达州共和党人在州议会提出了这项重大法案 HB 999，以限制该州每所公立学院和大学的教学内容。

The earliest versions of the bill were far-reaching.

该法案的最早版本影响深远。

They didn't just ban critical race theory and identity politics from all general education courses.

他们不仅禁止所有通识教育课程中批判性的种族理论和身份政治。

They made it so no student could major or minor in gender studies or in what the bill calls "radical feminist theory," things that have been standard in universities for decades.

他们这样做是为了让学生不能主修或辅修性别研究或该法案所称的“激进女权主义理论”，这些东西几十年来一直是大学的标准。

For professors who might try to sneak something by, early drafts of the bill didn't explicitly say what would happen to them.

对于那些可能试图偷偷溜走的教授来说，该法案的早期草案并没有明确说明他们会遭遇什么。

But they did say that tenured professors could have their tenure reviewed at any time.

但他们确实表示，终身教授可以随时对其任期进行审查。

Understandably, professors all over the state wondered what this new bill was going to mean in practice.

可以理解的是，全州各地的教授都想知道这项新法案在实践中意味着什么。

Emmanuel Dzotsi wondered that too and followed things for one semester between the introduction of the bill and its final passage at one of the biggest universities in Florida, Florida State.

Emmanuel Dzotsi 也想知道这一点，并在佛罗里达州最大的大学之一的佛罗里达州最大的大学之一的该法案提出和最终通过之间花了一个学期的时间来跟踪事情。

He has this story about what it was like for a professor and one of her students.

他有一个关于一位教授和她的一名学生的故事。

So one of the many students affected by this new law is Kaysin.

因此，Kaysin 是受这项新法律影响的众多学生之一。

She's Black, moved to Florida as a kid.

她是黑人，小时候搬到佛罗里达州。

She was a freshman this past year.

去年她还是一年级新生。

Kaysin's very bright, and not just in the smart and intelligent kind of way.

凯辛非常聪明，而且不仅仅是聪明才智。

She's a really positive person, very earnest.

她是一个非常积极、非常认真的人。

At a school with more than 30,000 undergrads, she couldn't meet enough of them.

在一所拥有三万多名本科生的学校里，她遇到的人还不够多。

I will start talking to people if we just happen to be passing each other and I notice something.

如果我们碰巧擦肩而过并且我注意到一些事情，我就会开始与人们交谈。

Like, oh, my gosh, your hair looks so cute.

就像，哦，天哪，你的头发看起来真可爱。

[LAUGHS] Yes, that's probably a good way to put it.

[笑]是的，这可能是一个很好的表达方式。

I meet a lot of people that way.

我通过这种方式认识了很多人。

Kaysin was also super passionate about the academic side of things.

凯辛也对学术方面的事物充满热情。

She chose Florida State, in part, because she got a scholarship, and she was aiming to be the first person in her family to get a bachelor's degree.

她选择佛罗里达州立大学的部分原因是她获得了奖学金，并且她的目​​标是成为家里第一个获得学士学位的人。

Her focus was to do something that would get her a job, so she looked into picking up a major in entrepreneurship, which would give her the tools to start her own business.

她的重点是做一些能让她找到工作的事情，所以她考虑选择创业专业，这将为她提供开创自己事业的工具。

But then she signed up for this African-American studies class, just, you know, to try it, which, as any disappointed parent of a business major who drops it all for a life in humanities can tell you, this is how it starts.

但后来她报名参加了这个非裔美国人研究课程，你知道，只是为了尝试一下，正如任何一个放弃了商业专业、投身于人文学科的失望家长可以告诉你的那样，这就是它的开始。

Kaysin loved the course, couldn't ask enough questions of her professor.

凯辛很喜欢这门课程，她向教授提出了很多问题。

I lost my mind.

我失去了理智。

I entered a fervor.

我进入了一种热情。

Because I knew I could not ask him every single question I wanted to in the middle of class, I would literally write down every single one of my thoughts.

因为我知道我不能在课堂上问他所有我想问的问题，所以我会逐字写下我的每一个想法。

And then after class, I would literally follow him out of the building.

下课后，我真的会跟着他走出大楼。

We would just talk for as he's walking to his car from the classroom.

当他从教室走向他的车时，我们就聊聊。

[LAUGHTER] Emmanuel Dzotsi So this man is trying to leave, and you're just like, could you--

[笑声] Emmanuel Dzotsi 所以这个人正试图离开，而你就像，你能——

Yes.

是的。

I would just be talking to him and asking him more and more questions about what he thought about different things.

我只是和他说话，问他越来越多的问题，了解他对不同事物的看法。

Kaysin loved the class so much that by the end of the semester, she switched her major to English and added a minor in African-American studies.

凯辛非常喜欢这门课，以至于在学期结束时，她将专业改为英语，并辅修了非裔美国人研究。

She wanted to dive deeper on Black writers from her state, from Florida.

她想更深入地了解她所在州佛罗里达州的黑人作家。

So for her second semester, she signed up for a class on Southern Black literature, the Literatures and Cultures of the Afro Gulf South, taught by a Black female professor named Dr. Alisha Gaines.

因此，在第二学期，她报名参加了一门关于南方黑人文学的课程，即非洲海湾南部的文学和文化，由一位名叫艾丽莎·盖恩斯博士的黑人女教授教授。

And when Kaysin met Dr. Gaines on the first day of class, she was obsessed with her.

当凯辛在上课的第一天遇到盖恩斯博士时，她就被她迷住了。

I thought she was so cool.

我觉得她很酷。

[LAUGHS] She just arrived into class with this kind of warm confidence.

[笑]她刚刚带着这种温暖的自信来到课堂。

I remember noticing that she was wearing what I would say is kind of almost this fancy black dress, but then was wearing sneakers with it.

我记得注意到她穿着我所说的几乎是这种漂亮的黑色连衣裙，但随后又穿着运动鞋。

The sneakers got you?

运动鞋抓住你了吗？

Kaysin I don't know.

凯辛我不知道。

It was my first time having a Black professor in college, a Black female professor in college.

这是我第一次在大学里有一位黑人教授，一位黑人女教授。

And it was just-- it was like I was able to look at her and think to myself, I could be like that someday.

就好像我能够看着她并自言自语，有一天我也可以成为那样。

That's something I could be.

这就是我可以做的事。

Within a few weeks of meeting Dr. Gaines, Kaysin decided she was going to become just like her, become a professor of African-American literature.

在见到盖恩斯博士的几周内，凯辛决定要像她一样，成为一名非裔美国文学教授。

But right as she figured out what she wanted to do with her life, HB 999 was introduced.

但就在她弄清楚自己想做什么的时候，HB 999 出现了。

It was late February, a few weeks into the semester.

那是二月底，开学几周后。

I think that I first saw it on Instagram.

我想我第一次看到它是在 Instagram 上。

And I read over it.

我读了一遍。

And I thought to myself, well, that can't be true.

我心想，好吧，这不可能是真的。

That's insane.

那太疯狂了。

Kaysin realized that a lot of the things that she loved most about Gaines' class might be affected by this bill.

凯辛意识到，她最喜欢盖恩斯班级的很多事情可能会受到这项法案的影响。

The class was, of course, about literature.

这堂课当然是关于文学的。

But it also involved discussions about the cultural and political context for each book.

但它也涉及对每本书的文化和政治背景的讨论。

For example, at one point, they read a novel about one family's experience of Hurricane Katrina, and they talked about the role systemic racism played in the government's response to it.

例如，有一次，他们读了一本关于一个家庭遭受卡特里娜飓风经历的小说，并谈到了系统性种族主义在政府应对飓风中所扮演的角色。

It felt like without those sorts of discussions, Literatures and Cultures of the Afro Gulf South just wasn't Literatures and Cultures of the Afro Gulf South.

感觉如果没有这些类型的讨论，非洲海湾南部的文学和文化就不是非洲海湾南部的文学和文化。

And she felt like her entire field of study, Black literature, specifically Black literature that probed the true legacy of what it means to be Black in America, the thing she had just realized she wanted to make her life's work, was under threat.

她觉得她的整个研究领域，黑人文学，特别是探讨美国黑人的真正意义的黑人文学，她刚刚意识到自己想要将其作为一生的工作，都受到了威胁。

Like, there was one day where they were discussing Their Eyes Were Watching God in class, and Kaysin just couldn't stop thinking about the bill.

比如，有一天，他们在课堂上讨论《他们的眼睛注视着上帝》，凯辛就无法停止思考这笔账单。

I was just thinking about, what if no one else ever gets to even read this in a class again?

我只是在想，如果其他人再也没有机会在课堂上读到这篇文章怎么办？

What if no one gets to have these kind of discussions that we're having again?

如果没有人能够再次进行我们正在进行的此类讨论怎么办？

Kaysin wondered how seriously she should take the bill.

凯辛想知道她应该如何认真地对待这笔帐单。

It was something I was wondering about too.

这也是我想知道的事情。

I thought, this bill is just a draft.

我想，这个法案只是一个草案。

Surely a lot of this sweeping language targeting subjects, that was going to come out, right?

当然，很多针对主题的全面语言都会出现，对吧？

And even if it didn't and the bill passed, it's such an attack on free speech, surely it wouldn't hold up in court.

即使没有通过并且法案获得通过，这也是对言论自由的攻击，肯定不会在法庭上站得住脚。

But pretty much every one of the professors who talked to me at FSU said that the bill's very introduction had a chilling effect.

但佛罗里达州立大学与我交谈的几乎每一位教授都表示，该法案的提出产生了寒蝉效应。

The language in the bill was so broad, it was hard to pin down exactly what would be prohibited.

该法案中的措辞如此宽泛，很难确定到底要禁止什么。

Professors told me that they and their colleagues were feeling pressured to change things about their work, regardless of what happened with the law.

教授们告诉我，无论法律发生了什么，他们和他们的同事都感到有压力要改变他们的工作。

And Dr. Gaines says, that didn't seem like an accident.

盖恩斯博士说，这看起来不像是一次意外。

Some of the early versions of this legislation is so ridiculous and outlandish.

这项立法的一些早期版本是如此荒谬和古怪。

And you realize, it's written to chill.

你意识到，它是为了冷静而写的。

It's written to put us on notice.

写这封信的目的是为了引起我们的注意。

But even believing that, it was hard to know what to do.

但即使相信这一点，也很难知道该怎么做。

Like, the same week the bill was introduced, Dr. Gaines got word that she was going to be teaching a course she hadn't taught before in the fall, Major Figures in American Literature, which is a really broad subject, right?

就像，在该法案提出的同一周，盖恩斯博士得知她将在秋季教授一门她以前从未教授过的课程，即美国文学中的主要人物，这是一个非常广泛的主题，对吧？

In theory, you could teach any assortment of great American authors.

理论上，你可以教授任何类型的伟大的美国作家。

And Dr. Gaines was considering making the focus of the class the authors of the Harlem Renaissance.

盖恩斯博士正在考虑将哈莱姆文艺复兴的作者作为全班的焦点。

The authors that I would want to talk with students about are major American authors, but they're also Black.

我想和学生谈论的作家都是美国主要作家，但他们也是黑人。

So can I just teach Black folks, and people will be fine with that?

那么我可以只教黑人，人们就会同意吗？

Or are they wanting Whitman?

或者他们想要惠特曼？

Or are they wanting Faulkner?

或者他们想要福克纳？

Gaines wondered, with HB 999 and all of the discourse around education in the state, if she could teach the historical racial context around an era like the Harlem Renaissance and its continued relevance today in a class where some students would just be there to fulfill a writing requirement.

盖恩斯想知道，通过 HB 999 以及该州有关教育的所有讨论，她是否可以在课堂上教授哈莱姆文艺复兴这样的时代的历史种族背景及其在今天的持续相关性，而在课堂上，一些学生只是为了满足写作要求。

She would encounter students from all different kinds of majors, students who might not necessarily be trying to learn about Black writers, and who would be able to record her classes and report her.

她会遇到来自各种不同专业的学生，​​这些学生可能不一定想了解黑人作家，也可能能够录制她的课程并报告她。

Is there going to be a student in my class taking it just to be controversial, just to be difficult?

我的班上是否会有学生只是为了引起争议、为了变得困难而上这门课？

That kind of stuff you don't want to keep at the forefront of your brain when you're trying to interact with students, and learn with them, and engage the material.

当你尝试与学生互动、与他们一起学习并参与材料时，你不希望将此类内容保留在大脑的最前沿。

But you have to think about it a little bit.

但你必须稍微考虑一下。

And then it creates a little bit of a, can I-- can I fully trust this classroom?

然后它产生了一点点，我可以——我可以完全信任这个教室吗？

Can I fully trust all my students?

我可以完全信任我所有的学生吗？

In March, I heard about something that was adding to the sense of dread so many people I talked to were feeling.

三月份，我听说了一些事情，这让我交谈过的很多人都感到更加恐惧。

It was a list that was getting passed around, and on it were 34 classes at FSU.

这是一份被广泛流传的名单，上面有 FSU 的 34 个班级。

Most of the professors I talked to about it didn't know exactly what it meant to be on the list, but they figured it wasn't a good thing.

我采访过的大多数教授并不确切知道列入名单意味着什么，但他们认为这不是一件好事。

At first, it wasn't exactly clear who created the list.

起初，并不清楚是谁创建了这份名单。

The DeSantis administration?

德桑蒂斯政府？

The university?

大学？

Dr. Gaines and I looked through the list.

盖恩斯博士和我浏览了这份清单。

There are programs and classes you'd expect to see, courses that talk about race and gender in ways that might concern Republicans on an anti-woke crusade, like AMH 2096, Black Women in America, or SYD 3800, Sociology of Sex and Gender.

有些课程和课程是您期望看到的，这些课程谈论种族和性别的方式可能会引起共和党反觉醒运动的关注，例如 AMH 2096、美国黑人女性或 SYD 3800、性与性别社会学。

But there are many classes missing.

但还有很多课程缺失。

Dr. Gaines' class that Kaysin was in, Literatures and Cultures of the Afro Gulf South, wasn't on there, which made no sense, not that she was complaining.

凯辛所在的盖恩斯博士的课程“非洲海湾南部的文学与文化”并不在那里，这毫无意义，但她并不是在抱怨。

That-- excuse me-- legislators, that is an exhaustive list of all the courses that you need to worry about.

对不起，立法者们，这是你们需要担心的所有课程的详尽清单。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Complete list, don't look any further.

完整列表，不用再看了。

You also had a lot of classes that didn't seem to fit, like Classical Perspectives on Dance, Masterpieces of German Literature.

你还有很多似乎不合适的课程，比如舞蹈的古典视角、德国文学杰作。

After looking into it, I figured out that the university made the list.

查了一下之后，我发现这所大学上榜了。

The DeSantis administration had requested all public universities send in a comprehensive list of anything on campus related to diversity and inclusion and critical race theory.

德桑蒂斯政府要求所有公立大学提交一份全面的清单，列出校园内与多样性、包容性和批判种族理论相关的所有内容。

I couldn't get anyone at the school to explain to me why this oddly random list of courses was what they decided to send in.

我无法让学校里的任何人向我解释为什么他们决定发送这个奇怪的随机课程列表。

Was it some Machiavellian mind game?

这是某种马基雅维利式的心理游戏吗？

Was it incompetence?

是无能吗？

Who knows?

谁知道？

But this disembodied list being passed around, it had an effect.

但这份无形的清单被四处传递，却产生了效果。

It added to the web of self-doubt and fear that professors at FSU were feeling.

这加剧了佛罗里达州立大学教授们的自我怀疑和恐惧。

Some of them were already changing their courses, trying to make them hold up to scrutiny.

他们中的一些人已经在改变他们的路线，试图让他们经得起审查。

I talked to one professor who removed work by Ibram Kendi from his syllabus and emphasized empirical studies about traffic stops and hiring discrimination instead.

我与一位教授交谈过，他从教学大纲中删除了 Ibram Kendi 的作品，转而强调有关交通堵塞和招聘歧视的实证研究。

Two other professors took the understandable step of changing the names of their courses, basically erasing the giant targets they had on their backs.

另外两位教授采取了可以理解的步骤，更改了课程名称，基本上消除了他们背上的巨大目标。

A class called "Critical Race Theory" will now be listed as "The Sociology of Race and Ethnicity." Another class, "Feminism and Travel," you can find out under the new name, "Journeys in Women's Literature." Both courses are, content-wise, basically the same as they were before.

名为“批判种族理论”的课程现在将被列为“种族和民族社会学”。另一门课程“女权主义与旅行”，您可以在新名称“女性文学之旅”下找到。这两门课程的内容与以前基本相同。

We are already self-censoring.

我们已经在自我审查了。

And, in fact, I pulled critical race theory out of my self-description on my faculty web page.

事实上，我从我的教师网页上的自我描述中提取了批判性的种族理论。

That's Dr. Celia Caputi, one of Dr. Gaines' colleagues in the English department.

那是西莉亚·卡普蒂博士，盖恩斯博士在英语系的同事之一。

She teaches classes about women's literature.

她教授有关女性文学的课程。

And the subjects targeted in the legislation were so open to interpretation with no explanation of what the punishment would be that she honestly couldn't figure out what she should be teaching.

立法中针对的主题是如此开放，没有解释惩罚的内容，以至于她真的不知道自己应该教什么。

Feminist theory and gender studies were baked into her courses.

女权主义理论和性别研究被纳入她的课程中。

She worried about losing her tenure and getting fired.

她担心失去任期并被解雇。

And so she spent an enormous amount of time this past semester trying to do whatever she could to protect herself.

因此，上个学期她花了大量时间试图尽一切努力保护自己。

I had started writing a new article just about a week ago.

大约一周前我开始写一篇新文章。

And now I look at the first page, and I was really proud.

现在我看到第一页，我真的很自豪。

I wrote down-- I wrote the introduction up.

我写下了——我写下了引言。

I had written a lot of notes, but I finally sat down at the computer and wrote up the introduction.

我写了很多笔记，最后还是坐在电脑前写下了简介。

And, well, guess what.

而且，好吧，你猜怎么着。

It references a concept called the "lesbian continuum" in the second paragraph.

它在第二段中引用了一个称为“女同性恋连续体”的概念。

[LAUGHTER] Emmanuel Dzotsi What's the lesbian continuum?

[笑声] Emmanuel Dzotsi 什么是女同性恋连续体？

OK, the lesbian continuum is a concept here-- we're talking feminist theory, uh-oh!

好吧，女同性恋连续体是这里的一个概念——我们谈论的是女权主义理论，呃哦！

The F word, that terrible thing-- the lesbian continuum is a concept put forth by lesbian feminist poet Adrienne Rich.

F字，那个可怕的东西——女同性恋连续体是女同性恋女权主义诗人艾德丽安·里奇提出的一个概念。

And her theory is that in a patriarchal heterosexist culture where women are fully responsible for caring for infants, every child, every infant's first love is his or her mother.

她的理论是，在父权异性恋文化中，女性完全负责照顾婴儿，每个孩子，每个婴儿的初恋都是他或她的母亲。

And so that for women, the initial disposition is same-sex love, and that heterosexist culture forces a woman to realign herself.

所以对于女性来说，最初的倾向是同性之爱，异性恋文化迫使女性重新调整自己。

And--

还有——

In other words, if you're a Florida Republican who believes that radical liberal professors are turning students gay, this article would be a red flag.

换句话说，如果您是佛罗里达州共和党人，认为激进自由派教授正在使学生变成同性恋，那么这篇文章将是一个危险信号。

You see now how this puts me in this situation?

你现在明白这让我陷入这样的境地了吗？

Yeah.

是的。

[LAUGHS] I see now how you're in it, yeah.

[笑]我现在明白你的处境了，是的。

Yeah, everything I want to do, everything I can get excited about, makes me feel insecure at the same time.

是的，我想做的一切，一切能让我兴奋的事情，同时都让我感到不安全。

Is this going to make me or break me?

这会成就我还是毁掉我？

This is one of the people who wrote HB 999, State Representative Alex Andrade.

这是写 HB 999 的人之一，州代表亚历克斯·安德拉德 (Alex Andrade)。

He'd been hearing about this chilling effect from so many critics of the bill.

他从许多对该法案的批评者那里听到了这种令人寒心的影响。

He was defensive when asked about it at first, about his intent, very angry that people thought he and the bill were racist, which he denies.

当一开始被问及此事和他的意图时，他表现出防守态度，对人们认为他和该法案是种族主义的行为感到非常愤怒，但他否认了这一点。

He says the fear that greeted HB 999 was inflamed by Democrats and the media.

他说，民主党人和媒体加剧了人们对 HB 999 的恐惧。

When I said that professors were feeling like they needed to change their courses, he was like, good.

当我说教授们觉得他们需要改变他们的课程时，他说，很好。

Maybe they need to.

也许他们需要这样做。

The whole purpose of the bill is to, if you're going to make an argument, tie it to fact.

该法案的全部目的是，如果你要提出论点，请将其与事实联系起来。

Tie it to evidence.

将其与证据联系起来。

And if you want to still teach a conclusion without evidence, higher education institutions in the state of Florida may not be for you.

如果你仍然想在没有证据的情况下得出结论，佛罗里达州的高等教育机构可能不适合你。

Here's the thing.

事情是这样的。

Andrade doesn't believe that systemic racism is inherent to the institutions of the United States today, even though a whole host of academic work says it is.

安德拉德并不认为系统性种族主义是当今美国机构所固有的，尽管大量学术著作都表明它是固有的。

He says, it's important that people learn about the systemic racism of the past.

他说，人们了解过去的系统性种族主义很重要。

Learn about Jim Crow, for example.

例如，了解吉姆·克劳法。

But that's the past, he says.

但那已经是过去了，他说。

If there's an institution that's racist right now, he said to me, I'll fight it with you.

他对我说，如果现在有一个存在种族主义的机构，我会和你一起对抗。

Our justice system, it is inherently unequal and does disproportionately affect Black men.

我们的司法系统本质上是不平等的，并且对黑人产生了不成比例的影响。

And there is a direct line between high rates of incarceration and policing that is tied to possible implicit racial bias.

高监禁率和治安之间存在直接联系，这与可能存在的隐性种族偏见有关。

I think that's pretty cut and dry.

我认为这已经很简单了。

Well, no, there's no question that there have been instances.

嗯，不，毫无疑问确实有这样的例子。

What I've just told you is that if you point me to an institution that is intentionally being racist today, I will fight it with you.

我刚才告诉你的是，如果你向我指出今天有一个故意种族主义的机构，我将与你一起对抗。

OK, that's great.

好的，太好了。

I hope you're noticing the distinction Andrade is making here.

我希望您注意到安德拉德在这里所做的区分。

He's saying, there are isolated instances of, say, Black men being arrested because they're Black.

他说，有一些孤立的例子，比如黑人因为是黑人而被捕。

But that's not proof of institutional racism.

但这并不能证明制度性种族主义。

There's no evidence.

没有证据。

If you can't point to me what institution is racist today.

如果你不能指出今天哪个机构是种族主义者。

Yeah, I mean, I have.

是的，我是说，我有。

But let's move on here because I have other questions, and I want you to be aware of your time.

但让我们继续吧，因为我还有其他问题，我希望您注意一下您的时间。

Whoa, Emmanuel, Emmanuel.

哇，伊曼纽尔，伊曼纽尔。

Emmanuel Dzotsi I have.

伊曼纽尔·佐西 我有。

Come on, mate.

来吧，伙计。

No, you haven't.

不，你没有。

Emmanuel Dzotsi I don't know.

伊曼纽尔·佐西 我不知道。

I would disagree with that.

我不同意这一点。

And a big part of teaching also is just acknowledging where the weight of the scholarship is.

教学的很大一部分也只是承认奖学金的重要性。

And if the weight of the scholarship, which it does, says that a lot of our systems in this country are inherently unequal because initially they were not necessarily built to serve everybody, that just kind of is what it is.

如果奖学金的分量（确实如此）表明我们这个国家的许多制度本质上是不平等的，因为最初它们不一定是为了服务所有人而建立的，那就是事实。

There's no disagreement that Jim Crow laws were racist, that are evidence of systemic racism.

毫无疑问，吉姆·克劳法是种族主义的，这是系统性种族主义的证据。

However, if anyone is saying today, currently our institutions are inherently racist--

然而，如果今天有人说，目前我们的机构本质上是种族主义的——

Because it's just false.

因为这只是假的。

Emmanuel Dzotsi Right, well, we're disagreeing.

Emmanuel Dzotsi 是的，好吧，我们不同意。

I don't think it's false.

我不认为这是假的。

I know it's not.

我知道不是。

But thank you for sharing that.

但谢谢你分享这一点。

He did this a few times.

他这样做了几次。

Presented with the weight of the evidence, he'd just say, there's no evidence, or he'd mention a study that he'd seen.

面对证据的分量，他只会说，没有证据，或者他会提到他见过的一项研究。

And this is what's making life for professors so hard.

这就是教授们生活如此艰难的原因。

They do already present clear and fact-based evidence.

他们确实已经提供了明确且基于事实的证据。

But Andrade is telling them they can't state what their evidence adds up to if it's a conclusion he and the Republican legislature don't agree with.

但安德拉德告诉他们，如果他和共和党立法机构不同意这个结论，他们就不能陈述他们的证据的结论。

How do you navigate that?

你如何导航？

As one professor told me, we can't just get up there and be like, so there's these discrepancies in health outcomes, but I can't tell you why.

正如一位教授告诉我的那样，我们不能只是站起来说，健康结果存在这些差异，但我不能告诉你原因。

That's just not teaching.

那根本就不是教学。

I reached out to the DeSantis administration to ask them about HB 999.

我联系了德桑蒂斯政府，向他们询问 HB 999 的情况。

They didn't directly respond to my questions.

他们没有直接回答我的问题。

Instead, their press secretary sent me links to a DeSantis press conference and a couple of other public statements about the bill.

相反，他们的新闻秘书向我发送了德桑蒂斯新闻发布会的链接以及其他一些有关该法案的公开声明。

And the message from those was pretty clear.

这些信息传达的信息非常明确。

If you want to teach stuff about critical race theory or gender ideology, we're not going to be funding it.

如果你想教授有关批判种族理论或性别意识形态的知识，我们不会资助它。

Go somewhere else.

去别的地方吧。

Dr. Gaines said that professors heard that message loud and clear.

盖恩斯博士说，教授们清楚地听到了这一信息。

Students did too.

学生们也这么做了。

Kaysin, for sure, she was following the news about the bill.

凯辛，当然，她正在关注有关该法案的新闻。

She came up and approached me at the end of my class.

下课时她走过来向我走来。

And she was just very upset.

她只是非常沮丧。

She said, what are you going to do about it?

她说，那你打算怎么办？

What did she mean by that?

她这话是什么意思？

Alisha Gaines I think she meant, are you going to curtail what you have to say or what we're going to read or teach?

艾丽莎·盖恩斯（Alisha Gaines）我想她的意思是，你会减少你要说的话或者我们要读或教的内容吗？

Are you going to roll over?

你要翻身吗？

Kaysin said she actually meant something a little different.

凯辛说她的意思实际上有点不同。

I wanted to know how she was handling it because I kind of wanted to know how I should handle it, almost.

我想知道她是如何处理这件事的，因为我有点想知道我应该如何处理它，几乎。

Oh, you were like, I need to ask her how she's handling it so I can know how seriously I should be taking this, how afraid I should be?

哦，你说，我需要问她是如何处理这件事的，这样我才能知道我应该多么认真地对待这件事，我应该多么害怕？

Yeah.

是的。

Emmanuel Dzotsi Dr. Gaines told Kaysin she wasn't going to change her class at all, but she'd been feeling the pressure.

Emmanuel Dzotsi 盖恩斯博士告诉凯辛，她根本不会改变班级，但她一直感受到压力。

A few weeks earlier, she decided to show a documentary in both of the classes she was teaching that semester.

几周前，她决定在她那个学期教授的两门课上放映一部纪录片。

The documentary was called Invisible History, Middle Florida's Hidden Roots, and it was a documentary about the legacy of slavery around Leon County, where FSU is located.

这部纪录片名为《看不见的历史，佛罗里达州中部隐藏的根源》，是一部关于佛罗里达州立大学所在莱昂县奴隶制遗留问题的纪录片。

The first class she showed it to was all grad students.

她向全班展示的都是研究生。

And when the film was finished, there was this stunned silence in the room.

当电影结束时，房间里陷入了令人震惊的沉默。

One of my graduate students said, well, DeSantis didn't want us to see that.

我的一位研究生说，好吧，德桑蒂斯不想让我们看到这一点。

As in, Dr. Gaines, you just did something that could get you in trouble.

就像盖恩斯博士一样，你刚刚做了一些可能会给你带来麻烦的事情。

Dr. Gaines was surprised.

盖恩斯博士很惊讶。

This was just a fact-based documentary that had been made by a filmmaker in residence at FSU, though it is pretty unflinching in the way it ties Leon County's Jim Crow past with its present.

这只是一部基于事实的纪录片，由佛罗里达州立大学的一位常驻电影制片人制作，尽管它毫不犹豫地将莱昂县的吉姆·克劳过去与现在联系在一起。

Half an hour later, she screened the same documentary for Kaysin's class.

半小时后，她为凯辛的班级播放了同一部纪录片。

And they were in the middle of a film when she noticed something.

当他们正在看电影时，她注意到了一些事情。

I think the documentary was about-- had gotten to a point about lynching.

我认为这部纪录片是关于——已经到了关于私刑的地步。

So it was a very heavy moment.

所以这是一个非常沉重的时刻。

I'm not going to say it wasn't.

我不会说不是。

That history is hard.

那段历史是艰难的。

That's painful.

那很痛苦。

And that history is right here in Leon County itself.

这段历史就在莱昂县本身。

And there was a moment where a student walked out of the classroom while it was screening.

放映时，有一个学生走出教室。

I literally kind of jumped in my seat because I wasn't sure why he was leaving.

我几乎从座位上跳了起来，因为我不确定他为什么要离开。

I was immediately thinking, is he walking out because he's protesting what I'm screening?

我立即想到，他退出是因为他抗议我正在放映的内容吗？

Is he walking out because he is made so very uncomfortable by this documentary about slavery in Leon County or Middle Florida?

他退出是因为这部关于莱昂县或佛罗里达州中部奴隶制的纪录片让他感到非常不舒服吗？

All of these things are kind of racing through my head.

所有这些事情都在我的脑海中快速闪过。

Gaines wasn't sure what would happen if she had offended his kid.

盖恩斯不确定如果她冒犯了他的孩子会发生什么。

So she wrote down some notes about where exactly in the film he'd walked out and then sat there, anxiously looking at the other students to see if anyone else was going to follow.

于是她记下了他在电影中具体走出去的地方，然后坐在那里，焦急地看着其他学生，看看是否还有人会跟着走。

And then--

然后——

That student came back a few minutes later.

几分钟后那个学生回来了。

He had just gone to the restroom.

他刚刚去洗手间。

And so I'm having this, [GASPS] oh, gosh.

所以我就这样了，[喘息]哦，天哪。

He was just using the restroom.

他刚刚上厕所。

I checked with the student, and he hadn't actually gone to the bathroom.

我和那个学生核实了一下，他实际上并没有去洗手间。

He stepped into the hall because of some news he'd gotten.

他走进大厅，是因为得到了一些消息。

But Dr. Gaines was seeing threats where there weren't any.

但盖恩斯博士却在不存在威胁​​的地方看到了威胁。

She was beginning to doubt herself.

她开始怀疑自己了。

It's that double think that I have never had to do in a classroom in my entire career.

在我的整个职业生涯中，我从未在课堂上做过这样的双重思考。

By early April, as the bill was being debated in committee, Kaysin was finding it increasingly difficult to stay upbeat as she saw news about the bill's progress.

到了四月初，当委员会正在对该法案进行辩论时，凯辛发现，当她看到有关该法案取得进展的消息时，她越来越难以保持乐观。

It had been a rough semester.

这是一个艰难的学期。

I was trying my best to enjoy it, even though there was a kind of constant backdrop of stress with everything happening.

我尽最大努力去享受它，尽管发生的一切都会带来一种持续的压力。

And I thought about dropping out of college.

我想过从大学退学。

Wait, wait, wait.

等等，等等，等等。

Kaysin Yeah, it ran through my head several times.

Kaysin 是的，这句话在我脑海中闪过好几次。

Even though I enjoyed it, even though I was so focused on getting to class, in my head, several times, I was like, maybe I should just bail out.

尽管我很享受它，尽管我如此专注于去上课，但在我的脑海里，有几次我想，也许我应该放弃。

It's kind of like if someone gives you a beautiful present, like they give you a beautiful watch.

这有点像有人给你一份漂亮的礼物，就像他们给你一块漂亮的手表一样。

And they say, hey, I might take this away at any second.

他们说，嘿，我可能随时把它拿走。

And when I take it away, I'm just straight up going to mug you.

当我把它拿走时，我就会直接去抢劫你。

Would you accept the watch?

你愿意接受这块手表吗？

Would you want to wear it on your wrist, so that after it's gone, you'd have to see the place where it was, that little tan line where the watch was?

你想把它戴在手腕上，这样当它消失后，你就必须看到它所在的地方，即手表所在的那条棕褐色小线吗？

Would you want to still accept that watch when it would feel safer to not have it at all?

当根本不拥有那块手表会感觉更安全时，您是否仍然愿意接受那块手表？

Right after the semester finished, DeSantis signed his big higher ed package.

学期结束后，德桑蒂斯签署了他的高等教育大包。

That final law did not have some of the things the professors I spoke with found most alarming.

最终的法律没有包含与我交谈过的教授们认为最令人担忧的一些内容。

They dropped the idea that no one could major or minor in gender studies or feminist theory or critical race theory.

他们放弃了这样的想法：没有人可以主修或辅修性别研究、女权主义理论或批判种族理论。

They dropped the idea that unruly professors could have their tenure reviewed at any time.

他们放弃了不守规矩的教授可以随时审查其任期的想法。

But the law does say that in general education courses, you can't teach identity politics or that systemic racism or sexism are built into the institutions of the United States.

但法律确实规定，在通识教育课程中，你不能教授身份政治，也不能教授美国机构中存在的系统性种族主义或性别歧视。

Kaysin saw the news about the bill passing and thought about her future.

凯辛看到法案通过的消息，思考了自己的未来。

They're not going to stop here, she told me.

他们不会停在这里，她告诉我。

Who knows what further restrictions to higher education they might make next year?

谁知道明年他们可能会对高等教育做出哪些进一步的限制？

Would you want to stick around for that?

你愿意为此留下来吗？

It's a thing she's talking about a lot nowadays with the people in her life, with her friends, with her parents, just what staying or leaving would mean, especially as a Black person in the South.

如今，她经常与她生活中的人、她的朋友、她的父母谈论留下或离开意味着什么，尤其是作为南方的黑人。

I was in that particular headspace when I went to my dad.

当我去找我爸爸时，我正处于那个特殊的顶空之中。

And I was like, I think I need to get out of this state.

我想，我想我需要摆脱这种状态。

I don't think I should stay here whatsoever.

我认为我不应该留在这里。

I don't feel safe.

我感觉不安全。

And he took that in.

他接受了这一点。

Then he was to me, like, but we don't run from things like that.

然后他对我来说就是这样，但我们不会逃避这样的事情。

And I was like, dude, what are you talking about?

我当时就想，伙计，你在说什么？

And he was like, we're Black people.

他说，我们是黑人。

We're living in the South.

我们住在南方。

If we left every time we felt threatened, no one would be here right now.

如果我们每次感到受到威胁就离开，那么现在就没有人在这里了。

And it was just this idea of, when people are trying to scare you away, you don't just go along with it.

这就是这样的想法，当人们试图吓跑你时，你不会只是附和。

You don't do them the favor of leaving.

你的离开并没有给他们带来好处。

You stay, and you try to make things right.

你留下来，并努力让事情变得正确。

And if you do leave, it's because you found something that you definitely know is better.

如果你确实离开了，那是因为你发现了一些你肯定知道更好的东西。

You leave for you, not for them.

你离开是为了你自己，不是为了他们。

Whether or not Kaysin stays in Florida through grad school, the one thing she knows for sure is that she still wants to be a professor, just like Dr. Gaines.

无论凯辛是否留在佛罗里达读研究生，她确定的一件事是她仍然想成为一名教授，就像盖恩斯博士一样。

The new law didn't change that.

新法律并没有改变这一点。

It did have a chilling effect.

它确实产生了寒蝉效应。

But what that looks like right now among the professors I talk to is people feeling fear, maybe changing their course names or removing things from their CVs.

但现在在我采访的教授中，人们感到恐惧，可能会更改课程名称或从简历中删除一些内容。

But mostly, these educators are standing their ground and teaching the same things they were before.

但大多数情况下，这些教育工作者都坚持自己的立场，教授的内容与以前相同。

Dr. Gaines, for instance, that class about major American writers, she decided to go ahead and teach only Black authors from the Harlem Renaissance.

例如，盖恩斯博士在关于美国主要作家的课程中，她决定继续只教授哈莱姆文艺复兴时期的黑人作家。

Dr. Celia Caputi is moving ahead with her article referencing the lesbian continuum.

西莉亚·卡普蒂 (Celia Caputi) 博士正在继续撰写她提到女同性恋连续体的文章。

The faculty union is telling everyone, don't change your classes.

教师工会告诉大家，不要改变你的班级。

If they try to use the law to stop you, we'll fight.

如果他们试图利用法律来阻止你，我们就会战斗。

Reporter Emmanuel Dzotsi.

记者伊曼纽尔·佐西。

Act Three: Goodbye Sunshine (podcast only) Ira Glass Act three, Goodbye Sunshine.

第三幕：再见阳光（仅限播客） Ira Glass 第三幕，再见阳光。

So here's my bedroom.

这是我的卧室。

My suitcase is out on my bed, and then I just have three boxes left to unpack-- actually, no, two boxes left to unpack.

我的手提箱放在床上，然后我只剩下三个盒子需要打开——实际上，不，还有两个盒子需要打开。

So we started our show with people moving to Florida.

所以我们从搬到佛罗里达的人们开始了我们的节目。

We end with somebody moving away.

我们以有人搬走而告终。

Eliza's 16, just finished her sophomore year of high school.

伊丽莎 16 岁，刚刚读完高中二年级。

And I talked to her two days after she arrived in the house her family just moved to in Virginia.

在她抵达她的家人刚刚搬到弗吉尼亚州的房子两天后，我与她进行了交谈。

They moved because of the law that Ron DeSantis enacted in May that bans gender-affirming care for anybody under 18.

他们之所以搬家，是因为罗恩·德桑蒂斯 (Ron DeSantis) 在 5 月颁布了一项法律，该法律禁止为 18 岁以下的任何人提供性别确认护理。

Eliza's trans, takes a hormone blocker, an estrogen.

伊丽莎的反式性别，需要服用激素阻断剂，即雌激素。

Yeah, it was just, the a concern is that I wouldn't be able to get the care that I needed.

是的，只是，担心的是我无法获得我需要的护理。

So we had to move somewhere where we knew that that wouldn't be threatened, at least for another couple of years.

所以我们必须搬到一个我们知道不会受到威胁的地方，至少在接下来的几年里。

Eliza's dad is in the military, so she's moved around a lot, Ohio, Texas, Germany, Los Angeles, Huntsville, Montgomery, been to lots of schools.

伊丽莎的父亲在军队，所以她搬了很多地方，俄亥俄州、德克萨斯州、德国、洛杉矶、亨茨维尔、蒙哥马利，去过很多学校。

She says, usually there's an even split between people who believe different kinds of things, but not in her school in Florida.

她说，通常相信不同事物的人之间的分歧是均匀的，但在佛罗里达州她的学校却并非如此。

It was just very-- I feel like the entire scale was shifted to the right.

我感觉整个规模都向右移动了。

I feel like even the most progressive people at my school were still way, way less progressive than any other place that I've been in before.

我觉得即使是我学校里最进步的人，也仍然比我以前去过的任何其他地方进步得多。

It's just so casual, just really common, really normal to just be awful and then to be exclusionary to people.

这是很随意的，很常见，很正常，只是变得很糟糕，然后被人们排斥。

But I just got kind of used to it.

但我只是有点习惯了。

I don't know.

我不知道。

Florida's just going to be Florida.

佛罗里达就只是佛罗里达。

We're putting this interview with you-- our conversation that we're having right now-- into an episode of our show that begins with people who moved to Florida because they liked the politics there.

我们将对您进行的这次采访（我们现在正在进行的对话）放入我们节目的一集中，该节目以那些搬到佛罗里达州的人们开始，因为他们喜欢那里的政治。

And I wonder, when you hear that, what do you think of people like that?

我想知道，当你听到这句话时，你对这样的人有什么看法？

Um, I think that is a crazy thing to hear.

嗯，我觉得听到这个消息真是太疯狂了。

And it just shows-- I don't know.

它只是表明——我不知道。

I feel like-- congratulations, that the things that are being threatened every day don't affect you.

我觉得——恭喜你，每天受到威胁的事情并没有影响到你。

You're lucky.

你很幸运。

But that's not the case for me, and that's not the case for a lot of people.

但对我来说不是这样，对很多人来说也不是这样。

Parts of the law that made Eliza move have been overturned by the courts.

导致伊丽莎搬迁的部分法律已被法院推翻。

But that doesn't matter to her family.

但这对她的家人来说并不重要。

Eliza wasn't out to many people in Florida.

在佛罗里达州，伊丽莎并没有对很多人出柜。

Most kids at school didn't know she was trans.

学校里的大多数孩子都不知道她是变性人。

So when she had to explain to them the reason why she was leaving, she kept it simple.

因此，当她必须向他们解释自己离开的原因时，她保持简单。

"Politics," she said.

“政治，”她说。

Well, our program was produced today by Zoe Chace and Alaa Mostafa.

嗯，我们今天的节目是由 Zoe Chace 和 Alaa Mostafa 制作的。

The people put together today's show include Bim Adewunmi, Chris Benderev, James Bennett II, Phia Bennin, Sean Cole, Michael Comite, Aviva DeKornfeld, Bethel Habte, Cassie Howley, Valerie Kipnis, Seth Lind, Caitlin Love, Stowe Nelson, Katherine Rae Mondo, Nadia Reiman, Ryan Rumery, Alissa Shipp, Lilly Sullivan, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, and Diane Wu.

今天节目的制作人包括 Bim Adewunmi、Chris Benderev、James Bennett II、Phia Bennin、Sean Cole、Michael Comite、Aviva DeKornfeld、Bethel Habte、Cassie Howley、Valerie Kipnis、Seth Lind、Caitlin Love、Stowe Nelson、Katherine Rae Mondo、Nadia Reiman、Ryan Rumery、Alissa Shipp、Lilly Sullivan、Christopher斯维塔拉、马特·蒂尔尼和黛安·吴。

Managing editor is Sarah Abdurrahman.

总编辑是萨拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sarah Abdurrahman)。

Our senior editor is David Kestenbaum.

我们的高级编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。

Our executive editor is Emmanuele Berry.

我们的执行主编是埃曼纽尔·贝里 (Emmanuele Berry)。

Ike Sriskandarajah produced act three of our show.

艾克·斯里斯坎达拉贾 (Ike Sriskandarajah) 制作了我们节目的第三幕。

Special thanks today to Paul Westcott of L2 Data, Devan Vilfrard, Jacob Perry, Dominique Jean Louis, Taylor Cox, John Gregory, Laurel Bristow, the National Conference of State Legislatures, Julio Ochoa, Stephanie Colombini, Earle Kimel, Paul Offit, Kim Savage, Rob Brooks, Ann Davies, Christopher Spata from The Tampa Bay Times, Zac Anderson from the Sarasota Herald-Tribune, Tho Bishop, Paul and Brenda Chabot, Selene San Felice, Adam Steinbaugh, Aubrey Jewett, Susan MacManus, and Julia Manchester and Max Greenwood, who wrote about Florida turning red for The Hill.

今天特别感谢 L2 Data 的 Paul Westcott、Devan Vilfrard、Jacob Perry、Dominique Jean Louis、Taylor Cox、John Gregory、Laurel Bristow、全国州议会会议、Julio Ochoa、Stephanie Colombini、Earle Kimel、Paul Offit、Kim Savage、Rob Brooks、Ann Davies、《坦帕湾时报》的 Christopher Spata、《萨拉索塔先驱论坛报》的 Zac Anderson， Tho Bishop、Paul 和 Brenda Chabot、Selene San Felice、Adam Steinbaugh、Aubrey Jewett、Susan MacManus、Julia Manchester 和 Max Greenwood，他们为《The Hill》撰写了有关佛罗里达变红的文章。

This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.

《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。

Our website, thisamericanlife.org, where we have new merch, including great new T-shirts and more.

我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org 上有新商品，包括精美的新 T 恤等。

My favorite is this really beautiful illustration of our show's co-founder Mr. Torey Malatia.

我最喜欢的是我们节目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生的这幅非常漂亮的插图。

Check it out, thisamericanlife.org.

看看这个americanlife.org。

Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.

一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。

He refuses to go to dinner and a movie with me if it's just the two of us.

如果只有我们两个人，他拒绝和我一起吃饭和看电影。

And here's why.

原因如下。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Back next week with more stories of This American Life.

下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。

This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.

《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。