800: Jane Doe - This American Life

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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #800 | May 26, 2023 800: Jane Doe Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.

00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 800 集 | 2023 年 5 月 26 日 800：Jane Doe 注：《This American Life》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。

If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.

如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。

Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.

文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。

Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.

请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。

Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass Some things in your life you decide you're never going to talk about.

序言：序言 Ira Glass 在你的生活中，有些事情你决定永远不会谈论。

For Jules, it was what her youth pastor did to her long ago when she was a teenager in Texas.

对于朱尔斯来说，这就是她的青年牧师很久以前对她所做的，当时她还是德克萨斯州的一名青少年。

She tried to put it aside -- tried to move on.

她试图把它放在一边——试图继续前进。

But then #MeToo happened with so many more women reporting men who'd assaulted or harassed them.

但随后“#MeToo”运动发生，更多女性举报男性袭击或骚扰她们。

And Matt Lauer had been on the front cover of the USA Today, and I thought, oh my goodness.

马特·劳尔登上了《今日美国》的封面，我想，天哪。

It inspired me so much that that very day, I wrote to my abuser, who was now a pastor at a megachurch.

这给了我很大的启发，以至于那天我写信给我的施虐者，他现在是一家大型教堂的牧师。

He never responded, so she wrote a blog post about it, thinking, you know, maybe 100 people would see it.

他从未回复过，所以她写了一篇关于此事的博文，心想，也许 100 人会看到它。

That was not the moment we were in.

那不是我们所处的时刻。

It became international news, and because of #MeToo, there were consequences that would have been unimaginable just a year before.

这成为了国际新闻，而且由于#MeToo，造成的后果在一年前是难以想象的。

The former youth pastor resigned from his job at the megachurch.

这位前青年牧师辞去了在大型教会的工作。

Things changed for Jules, too.

朱尔斯的情况也发生了变化。

All of a sudden, lots of women were calling her for advice on how to handle what they were going through, and she found a lot of meaning in those conversations.

突然间，很多女性打电话给她，寻求如何处理她们正在经历的事情的建议，她在这些谈话中发现了很多意义。

She set up a nonprofit that funds therapy for women who've been sexually assaulted, but there were aftershocks from her #MeToo moment that she never could have guessed, like with her three daughters.

她成立了一个非营利组织，为遭受性侵犯的女性提供治疗资金，但她从未预料到她的#MeToo时刻带来的余震，就像她的三个女儿一样。

There's this conversation a year or two after she came forward.

在她站出来一两年后，就有了这次谈话。

One of them said, mommy, why do you have to be a survivor?

其中一个说，妈妈，你为什么一定要成为幸存者？

And that just broke my heart.

这让我心碎。

Probably about six or seven, and I had to explain, sweetheart, I didn't choose for this to happen.

大概六七岁，我必须解释一下，亲爱的，这不是我选择的。

I didn't choose to be a survivor.

我没有选择成为幸存者。

All my girls have seen me in tears over the years because of all this, and they also know that it takes up a lot of time.

多年来，我所有的女儿们都看到我因为这一切而流泪，她们也知道这占用了我很多时间。

Right, because she sees you counseling other people and talking to people about it, and

是的，因为她看到你向其他人提供咨询并与人们谈论这件事，并且

Right.

对。

You know, I'll say, hold on, honey, I'm on the phone with a survivor.

你知道，我会说，等等，亲爱的，我正在和一位幸存者通电话。

I've got an advocacy meeting at 1 o'clock or whatever, and so they see it as taking time away from them.

我下午 1 点左右要召开一个宣传会议，所以他们认为这会占用他们的时间。

But they also see the emotional toll it can take.

但他们也看到了这可能造成的情感损失。

Five years after the #MeToo explosion, some powerful and well known men lost their jobs.

#MeToo 爆炸五年后，一些有权有势的知名人士失去了工作。

A few went to prison.

一些人进了监狱。

Over 20 states passed laws to make workplaces safer.

20 多个州通过了提高工作场所安全性的法律。

Some changed statutes of limitations so people have more time to report sexual harassment and assault.

有些改变了诉讼时效，以便人们有更多时间举报性骚扰和性侵犯。

That change, by the way, is why E.

顺便说一句，这种变化就是 E.

Jean Carroll was able to sue former President Trump recently.

让·卡罗尔最近能够起诉前总统特朗普。

Lots of employers adopted new HR policies, introduced more trainings.

许多雇主采取了新的人力资源政策，推出了更多培训。

There was a bump in reporting for a while, but you know what we haven't heard that much about?

一段时间以来，报道数量有所增加，但你知道我们没有听说过什么吗？

How this has played out in the lives of the women who stepped forward and went public with their stories.

这在那些挺身而出并公开讲述自己故事的女性的生活中得到了怎样的体现。

I and a few of my coworkers have been talking to women like that, and one of the things I thought was so striking was the small ways that the aftermath of coming forward continues to pop up in their daily lives.

我和我的一些同事一直在与这样的女性交谈，我认为如此引人注目的一件事是，挺身而出的后果继续在她们的日常生活中出现。

For starters, a few of them told me that any time they meet someone new, even years later, they do this calculation in their head -- what do they know about me?

首先，他们中的一些人告诉我，每当他们遇到新朋友时，即使是几年后，他们也会在脑海中进行这样的计算——他们对我了解多少？

What have they read, if anything?

他们读过什么（如果有的话）？

It's stressful.

压力很大。

Take Tanya Selvaratnam.

以坦尼娅·塞尔瓦拉特南为例。

She says she felt tremendous relief when she spoke out in 2018 about her abusive relationship with the New York State Attorney General, Eric Schneiderman, and he stepped down hours after her story came out.

她说，2018 年，当她公开谈论自己与纽约州总检察长埃里克·施奈德曼 (Eric Sc​​hneiderman) 的虐待关系时，她感到无比轻松，而他在她的故事曝光几小时后就辞职了。

But in the time since then, she still gets reminded of it in certain kinds of social interactions.

但从那以后，她仍然会在某些社交互动中想起这件事。

One example is I had gone on a few dates with a man who was wonderful and so kind, and we got together one night and he asked how my day had been, and there was an essay I had written, which had just come out in Elle magazine.

一个例子是，我和一个非常友善的男人约会了几次，有一天晚上我们聚在一起，他问我这一天过得怎么样，我写了一篇文章，刚刚发表在《Elle》杂志上。

And he asked if he could read it, and as I was saying what I had been doing that day, I realized, oh wait, we haven't talked about my story because it's not something that I lead with, and he wanted to read it.

他问他是否可以读它，当我说那天我在做什么时，我意识到，哦等等，我们还没有谈论我的故事，因为这不是我引导的东西，而他想读它。

And I said, sure, and so then he looked it up and he read it.

我说，当然，然后他查了一下并读了它。

He sent me a beautiful note, thanking me for sharing my story and he's sorry for what I went through, and then I never heard from him again.

他给我发了一封漂亮的便条，感谢我分享我的故事，他对我所经历的事情感到抱歉，然后我就再也没有收到他的消息。

What did you take from that?

你从中得到了什么？

Tanya Selvaratnam A good guy, but my story made him uncomfortable.

坦尼娅·塞尔瓦拉特南 (Tanya Selvaratnam) 是个好人，但我的故事让他感到不舒服。

Like I hope that people recognize it was a sliver of my life.

就像我希望人们认识到这是我生命的一小部分。

It was a short sliver of my life, and that there's a whole life before and after that I have forged separate from that sliver.

这是我生命中的一小段，而在这之前和之后，我已经与那段生命分开了。

Calling around, we heard about women switching careers, falling into debt from legal fees, but we also heard specific things that were so individual to each person.

四处打电话，我们听说女性转行、因律师费而负债累累，但我们也听到了每个人都因人而异的具体事情。

An associate professor at Tufts dental school reported a coworker, and then after, she met with her supervisor about it, and the way that the supervisor responded was so upsetting to her that now, the clothes she wore to those meetings.

塔夫茨牙科学校的一位副教授举报了一位同事，然后她就此事与主管会面，而主管的回应方式让她感到非常不安，以至于现在她参加这些会议时穿的衣服。

She says she can't wear those clothes anymore or even look at them.

她说她不能再穿那些衣服了，甚至不能再看它们了。

One woman, a wildland firefighter with the US Forest Service, told us that she expected after she reported that her bosses would start training the staff differently.

一位美国林务局的荒地消防员女士告诉我们，在她报告她的老板会开始以不同的方式培训员工后，她预计。

They didn't.

他们没有。

So now that's something she does for her co-workers -- kind of DIY.

所以现在她为她的同事做一些事情——有点DIY。

Another woman, a truck driver in California, Laura Zuniga, came forward with the expectation that something would happen to the man that she reported.

另一位妇女劳拉·祖尼加 (Laura Zuniga) 是加利福尼亚州的一名卡车司机，她挺身而出，预计她举报的男子会出事。

When it didn't, when he kept his job, she shut herself in a room for a while, stopped cooking for her three daughters, stopped taking them out, stopped being a mom.

如果没有，当他保住工作时，她把自己关在房间里一段时间，不再为三个女儿做饭，不再带她们出去，不再做一个母亲。

They'd come to her door and she'd tell them to go make themselves cereal or a sandwich.

他们来到她家门口，她会叫他们去给自己做麦片或三明治。

She says it especially got to the two older girls.

她说这对两个年龄较大的女孩来说尤其如此。

Now they're very shy.

现在他们非常害羞。

The two older ones are very shy.

两个年长的人非常害羞。

They don't want to go nowhere.

他们哪儿也不想去。

Somebody comes, they ring the doorbell -- they run to the room.

有人来了，他们按门铃——他们跑向房间。

No. Somebody came over, they'll come out like nothing.

不，有人过来了，他们就会像没事人一样出来。

Now they just wait for the people to leave.

现在他们只等人离开。

Yeah.

是的。

Laura Zuniga They stick to themselves.

劳拉·祖尼加（Laura Zuniga） 他们坚持自己。

I think they lost maybe some part of their childhood.

我认为他们可能失去了童年的一部分。

When Chanel Miller reported what happened to her, she wound up in front of a jury.

当香奈儿·米勒 (Chanel Miller) 报告她的遭遇时，她出现在陪审团面前。

It was a pretty well-known case.

这是一个相当著名的案例。

She was known as Emily Doe, and then came out with her name after #MeToo happened.

她被称为艾米丽·多伊（Emily Doe），并在#MeToo 事件发生后公开了自己的名字。

A swimmer at Stanford University named Brock Turner sexually assaulted her while she was unconscious.

斯坦福大学一名名叫布洛克·特纳的游泳运动员在她昏迷不醒时对她进行了性侵犯。

She'd been drinking at a party.

她在一次聚会上喝酒了。

She says the experience of telling that story in a courtroom has stayed with her in a bunch of ways, including this one.

她说，在法庭上讲述这个故事的经历在很多方面都让她印象深刻，包括这件事。

If it's 10:00 PM in New York, which is pretty early for New York, and I'm trying to decide whether I'm going to take the subway or a taxi home, in order to make that decision, I tell the story of the evening back to myself.

如果现在是纽约晚上 10:00，这对于纽约来说相当早，而我正在尝试决定是乘坐地铁还是乘坐出租车回家，为了做出这个决定，我会向自己讲述晚上的故事。

So if I went to a book reading and had some champagne, I think, you know, I sound like a reasonable, credible person.

因此，如果我去看书并喝了一些香槟，我想，你知道，我听起来像是一个通情达理、可信的人。

I'm going to take a risk and take the subway.

我要冒险乘坐地铁。

The subway is assumed to be riskier than the taxi.

地铁被认为比出租车风险更大。

If I went to a friend's birthday party and I was wearing a bear costume and drank Hennessy out of a coconut and won a hula hooping contest, I think, you know, that person sounds a little bit more unhinged.

如果我去参加朋友的生日聚会，穿着小熊服装，喝着椰子里的轩尼诗，还赢得了呼啦圈比赛，我想，你知道，那个人听起来有点精神错乱。

I don't feel like explaining that to a jury, so I'm going to take a taxi.

我不想向陪审团解释这一点，所以我打算乘出租车。

Wow.

哇。

Because you really play out the whole thing in your head as do I want to say this in court someday?

因为你真的在脑子里把整件事都演完了，就像我有一天想在法庭上说的那样？

And what's sad about that is that I am not thinking about my own safety.

可悲的是我没有考虑自己的安全。

I'm thinking about how to increase my chances of being believed.

我正在考虑如何增加别人相信我的机会。

Today on our show, we have the story of somebody who came forward, and what happened to her next has never been told.

今天在我们的节目中，我们讲述了一个挺身而出的人的故事，而她接下来发生的事情却从未被告知。

In fact, she's only been known as Jane Doe, and she's remarkable in a few ways.

事实上，她只被称为“Jane Doe”，但她在很多方面都很出色。

First of all, she is so young.

首先，她还那么年轻。

She's just a teenager, and she spoke out about one of the most powerful people in her state.

她只是一个十几岁的孩子，却公开谈论了她所在州最有权势的人之一。

And in this case, the story that the public knows is very, very different from what actually happened to her.

而在这起案件中，公众所知道的故事与她身上实际发生的事情非常非常不同。

In some ways, the public story is the opposite of her experience of it.

在某些方面，公众的故事与她的经历相反。

From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.

来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Stay with us.

留在我们身边。

Act One.

第一幕。

The Intern.

实习生。

So the person our show is about today was a 19-year-old intern in the Idaho state legislature, and I should say before I go any further that there is no way to discuss what happened to her without talking about sexual violence.

所以我们今天的节目讲述的是一位 19 岁的爱达荷州立法机构实习生，在继续讨论之前我应该​​说，如果不谈论性暴力，就无法讨论她身上发生的事情。

Take that as a heads up for what's to follow.

将此作为接下来发生的事情的提示。

In 2021, this teenager reported that a state representative twice her age raped her.

2021 年，这名青少年举报称，一名年龄是她两倍的州代表强奸了她。

She came forward with her story, and then so many things went differently than they would have before #MeToo.

她讲述了自己的故事，然后很多事情都与 #MeToo 之前不同。

Idaho's state house had put in place a basic reporting system for complaints like this.

爱达荷州议会已经针对此类投诉建立了基本的报告系统。

The incident was investigated, there were consequences -- all within a month and a half.

该事件得到了调查，并产生了后果——这一切都在一个半月内发生。

The house put on a hearing and came to a fast decision.

众议院举行了听证会并迅速做出了决定。

Committee, we have a motion.

委员会，我们有一项动议。

I will summarize that motion.

我将总结该动议。

Our motion is that representative von Ehlinger should be censured with the following restrictions and conditions.

我们的动议是，应在以下限制和条件下谴责冯·埃林格代表。

One, that he be immediately suspended without pay or benefits.

第一，立即停职，没有工资或福利。

Two, that he must immediately vacate his office in the capitol and not return to capitol grounds for the remainder of the 66th Idaho legislature.

第二，他必须立即腾出在国会大厦的办公室，并且在爱达荷州第 66 届立法机构的剩余会议期间不得返回国会大厦。

And three...

还有三个...

The committee vote was unanimous.

委员会投票结果一致。

They then called for a vote from the full House to expel the representative.

然后他们要求众议院全体投票以驱逐该代表。

He immediately resigned.

他立即辞职了。

So you know, that's change right, post #MeToo?

所以你知道，#MeToo 发布后，这就是改变吗？

State legislators talked about how proud they were of their ability to do the right thing so quickly.

州立法者表示，他们为自己能够如此迅速地做正确的事情而感到自豪。

They praised their colleagues around the hearing as masterful.

他们称赞听证会上的同事非常出色。

One of our producers, Miki Meek, watched all this happen back then, and she had a question -- namely, what was all this like for Jane Doe?

我们的一位制片人米基·米克（Miki Meek）当时目睹了这一切，她有一个问题——对于无名氏来说，这一切是什么样的？

Here's Miki.

这是米基。

I live just south of Boise, and the story of Jane Doe was all over the news.

我住在博伊西南部，无名氏的故事充斥着新闻。

There was a public ethics hearing in the Idaho House.

爱达荷州众议院举行了公共道德听证会。

I watched her answer questions.

我看着她回答问题。

Did you make a report to Boise Police Department that on March 9th, you had been raped by Representative von Ehlinger?

您是否向博伊西警察局报告 3 月 9 日您被众议员 von Ehlinger 强奸？

Yes.

是的。

Miki Meek The first thing I noticed -- Jane Doe was young.

Miki Meek 我注意到的第一件事——Jane Doe 很年轻。

Just a teenager.

只是一个少年。

Just out of high school.

高中刚毕业。

They had her behind these giant black curtains up on a dais at the very front of the room.

他们把她安排在房间最前面的讲台上巨大的黑色窗帘后面。

These big black curtains that hung off some tall metal frames were supposed to shield her identity, which was weird because nothing was being done to disguise her actual voice.

这些挂在一些高大的金属框架上的黑色大窗帘本应保护她的身份，这很奇怪，因为没有采取任何措施来掩盖她的真实声音。

I couldn't stop thinking, what is happening here?

我无法停止思考，这里发生了什么？

It felt very Handmaid's Tale, like she was on trial.

感觉很像《使女的故事》，就像她正在接受审判一样。

Did you tell him to stop?

你让他停下来了吗？

Jane Doe I said no.

简·多伊 我说不。

Did you say other things that indicated no?

您还说过其他表示“不”的事情吗？

Multiple.

多种的。

Multiple different reiterations.

多次不同的重复。

I even tried to just convince him to not, telling him I wasn't on birth control and I hadn't shaved myself or -- things to make me seem unappeasable, you know?

我什至试图说服他不要这样做，告诉他我没有节育，我没有刮胡子，或者——那些让我看起来难以平静的事情，你知道吗？

And he just continued.

他只是继续说下去。

So that's a pretty intense thing to hear a teenager recounting behind a black curtain.

所以听到一个青少年在黑幕后讲述是一件非常激烈的事情。

And then here's the part that really made me wonder what this was all like for Jane.

接下来的部分真正让我想知道这对简来说是什么样的。

Something happened after she finished her testimony.

她完成证词后发生了一些事情。

After she exited the room, the mics picked up a faint scream.

她离开房间后，麦克风听到了微弱的尖叫声。

[SCREAM] It was hers.

[尖叫]这是她的。

Some of the representatives conducting the hearing looked around in confusion for a split second, and then got back to work calling up witnesses.

一些主持听证会的代表困惑地环顾四周，然后又开始传唤证人。

Watching this back in 2021, just four years after the #MeToo movement broke, I assumed Jane Doe was part of a younger generation of women who were reporting sexual violence.

回想 2021 年，也就是#MeToo 运动爆发四年后，我认为无名氏是举报性暴力的年轻一代女性中的一员。

But who knows?

但谁知道呢？

She was literally invisible at the hearing.

她在听证会上几乎是隐形的。

What was it like for her back behind that curtain and what was that scream?

她躲在窗帘后面感觉怎么样？那尖叫声是什么？

I wanted to find out more about what exactly happened to Jane Doe.

我想了解更多关于无名氏到底发生了什么的事情。

I reached out to Jane Doe through her lawyers after the hearing to see if she wanted to share more.

听证会结束后，我通过她的律师联系了无名氏，看看她是否愿意分享更多信息。

Five months later, I noticed a couple of missed calls on my phone.

五个月后，我注意到手机上有几个未接来电。

I called back.

我回了电话。

It was Jane.

是简。

She'd been calling me and not leaving messages, trying to reach me out of the blue because she worried I'd try to record our call without her knowing.

她一直打电话给我，但没有留言，试图突然联系我，因为她担心我会在她不知情的情况下尝试记录我们的通话。

She said she was feeling paranoid.

她说她感到偏执。

When I finally met Jane in person, she was very direct.

当我最终见到简本人时，她非常直接。

She'd been seeing all these people talking about her and finally wanted to give her side of it.

她看到所有这些人都在谈论她，最后她想表达自己的观点。

She had a lot to say about every part of the process that led her up to the seat behind the black curtain.

她对整个过程的每个部分都有很多话要说，直到她走到黑幕后面的座位上。

She just turned 20.

她刚满20岁。

She was really funny -- a total goofball.

她真的很有趣——一个彻头彻尾的傻瓜。

She has a membership at a trampoline gym.

她是一家蹦床健身房的会员。

I love it there.

我喜欢那里。

Miki Meek Her favorite?

米基·米克 她最喜欢的是？

The dodgeball zone.

躲避球区。

I love being a big sister, and I don't get the chance to be a big sister a lot, so when I get a chance to just, like, go annihilate some little, like, nine year olds, I will.

我喜欢当大姐姐，但我没有太多机会当大姐姐，所以当我有机会去消灭一些小孩子，比如九岁的孩子时，我会的。

[LAUGHTER] They're always like, ah, you got me!

[笑声]他们总是说，啊，你抓住了我！

I love kids, you know?

我喜欢孩子，你知道吗？

Jane's a big sister to many younger siblings.

简是许多弟弟妹妹的姐姐。

She's always teasing them with fart jokes.

她总是用放屁笑话来取笑他们。

But the main thing that really stood out to me about her is just how much she loves nerding out about the state legislature.

但她最让我印象深刻的是她多么喜欢研究州立法机构。

I have pictures and I would love to show you.

我有照片，很乐意给你看。

I always have a bunch of pictures of the state house -- the state house is so pretty.

我总是有一堆州议会大厦的照片——州议会大厦太漂亮了。

She pulled up a photo of the Idaho state flag hanging from the rotunda.

她拿出一张悬挂在圆形大厅上的爱达荷州国旗的照片。

You got the tree.

你得到了那棵树。

You got the deer.

你得到了鹿。

And I mean, like, I think it's beautiful.

我的意思是，我认为它很漂亮。

Her favorite pictures were of her cubicle -- a big wood desk, swivel chair, and her own name plaque.

她最喜欢的照片是她的小隔间——一张大木桌、转椅和她自己的名字牌。

And it was really funny, too.

这也很有趣。

Like, the sergeant at arms put my name in all caps on it because she said then that people would find me easier.

就像，武装中士把我的名字全部大写，因为她当时说人们会更容易找到我。

No, I'd never had my own office.

不，我从来没有自己的办公室。

I was shook.

我很震惊。

Honestly, if I will just get straight to really what it made me feel, I felt like I was walking on gold.

老实说，如果我能直接体会它给我带来的真正感受，我感觉自己就像在黄金上行走一样。

Like, literally my entire family -- I'm the first one to ever work for the government, right?

就像，实际上是我的整个家庭——我是第一个为政府工作的人，对吧？

I mean, yeah, I was just proud of myself.

我的意思是，是的，我只是为自己感到骄傲。

The capitol had been a surreal place for Jane to find herself in.

对简来说，国会大厦是一个超现实的地方。

Just a few years earlier, she was a pregnant high school freshman trying to figure her life out.

就在几年前，她还是一名怀孕的高中新生，试图弄清楚自己的生活。

She started making money by working field jobs on potato and corn farms, and picked up a night shift at Panda Express.

她开始通过在马铃薯和玉米农场做田间工作赚钱，并在熊猫快车公司找到了夜班。

As a sophomore, she enrolled herself in a special high school for teen parents and started volunteering in domestic violence shelters.

大二时，她在一所专门为青少年父母开设的高中就读，并开始在家庭暴力庇护所做志愿者。

She quickly became the kind of model overachiever who gets voted most likely to become President of the United States.

她很快就成为了最有可能当选美国总统的模范优等生。

When Jane was a senior in high school, she signed up to be a page in the Idaho House of Representatives.

当简高中四年级时，她报名成为爱达荷州众议院的一名侍从。

She ran errands for a special committee and was celebrated on the local news for it.

她为一个特别委员会跑腿，并因此而受到当地新闻的赞扬。

The first teen mom to serve as a page in the state house.

第一个在州议会大厦担任侍从的青少年妈妈。

Her work in domestic violence programs brought her here to learn more about the legislative process.

她在家庭暴力项目中的工作使她来到这里了解更多有关立法程序的信息。

Jane learned the steps on how to make a bill, and for fun, sat in on meetings of the Judiciary and Rules Committee.

简学习了如何制定法案的步骤，并为了好玩，参加了司法和规则委员会的会议。

She liked tracking all the different drafts of bills that got introduced and seeing what happened to them.

她喜欢跟踪所有提出的不同法案草案，看看它们发生了什么。

She'd grown up with an abusive dad and then had a boyfriend who was violent with her.

她在一个虐待她的父亲的陪伴下长大，然后又有一个对她施暴的男朋友。

Seeing firsthand just how badly the criminal process worked for victims, she wondered why it wasn't better.

她亲眼目睹了刑事诉讼程序对受害者的影响有多么糟糕，她想知道为什么不做得更好。

And now that she'd seen the work of a lawmaker up close, she decided that's what she wanted for herself.

现在，她已经近距离观察了一位立法者的工作，她决定这就是她自己想要的。

So after the page program was over, after she graduated from high school, Jane decided she had to get back to the House.

因此，当页面节目结束后，当她高中毕业后，简决定她必须回到众议院。

She applied for an internship, and to get it, she needed to find a representative who would sponsor her.

她申请了实习机会，为了获得实习机会，她需要找到一位能够赞助她的代表。

So I just reached out to everybody I could that I knew, you know, because you could find their contact online.

所以我就联系了所有我能认识的人，因为你可以在网上找到他们的联系方式。

You can find their email and stuff, so I just was, like, sending emails like, hey.

你可以找到他们的电子邮件和其他东西，所以我只是发送电子邮件，嘿。

What did you say?

你说什么？

Jane Doe I was like, Hi, I don't know if you remember me.

Jane Doe 我当时想，嗨，我不知道你是否还记得我。

I was a page last year.

去年我是一个页面。

I don't know if you remember on your committee -- blah, blah, blah, depending on who I was talking to.

我不知道你是否还记得你的委员会——等等，等等，取决于我在和谁说话。

But basically, I'm just like, Hey, you know, I'm really interested in coming back this year and learning more.

但基本上，我只是想，嘿，你知道，我真的很感兴趣今年回来学习更多。

I think I can benefit you and benefit me at the same time.

我想我可以让你受益，同时也让我受益。

I have a lot that I want to learn.

我有很多想要学习的东西。

Like, I wanted to be there, you know?

就像，我想去那里，你知道吗？

Like, I wanted to learn.

就像，我想学习。

She got an internship with a Republican representative -- not von Ehlinger, the one she reported for raping her.

她得到了一位共和党代表的实习机会，而不是她举报的强奸她的冯·埃林格。

It was another one.

这是另一件。

She started at the beginning of 2021 -- a desk of her own on the ground floor of the Idaho State Capitol.

她从 2021 年初开始在爱达荷州议会大厦底层设立一张自己的办公桌。

She felt like this was the beginning of something much bigger.

她觉得这是更大的事情的开始。

Jane remembers running into Representative von Ehlinger pretty soon after the 2021 legislative session started.

简记得 2021 年立法会议开始后不久就遇到了众议员冯·埃林格。

She wasn't interning for him.

她不是在给他实习。

He was just another Republican representative -- a very new one.

他只是另一位共和党代表——一位非常新的代表。

I reached out to von Ehlinger and his lawyer for comment, but didn't get a response.

我联系了冯·埃林格和他的律师征求意见，但没有得到回复。

He hasn't been talking to the press.

他没有接受媒体采访。

It was his first term in the House.

这是他在众议院的第一个任期。

He was a substitute teacher from Northern Idaho.

他是来自爱达荷州北部的代课老师。

There was a few times when I'd walk out of committee and he was, like, there and I'd just -- you know, I smile and wave at everybody.

有几次，当我走出委员会时，他就在那里，我只是——你知道，我微笑着向每个人挥手致意。

And then he just kind of stared at me, and I was like, I'm just going to keep walking.

然后他只是盯着我看，我就想，我要继续走。

And then I think the second time -- there was a bunch of people like right where the entrance was to go get to my office.

然后我想第二次——有一群人就在入口处，要前往我的办公室。

There was a bunch of people there, so I'm just kind of like lingering, and then Ehlinger was like, Oh, how are you?

那里有很多人，所以我有点想逗留，然后埃林格说，哦，你好吗？

I had my intern badge, and he was just like, Who do you intern for?

我拿着实习生徽章，他就问，你为谁实习？

And I was like, Well, I'm just, I have my own office over here, and --

我当时想，好吧，我只是，我在这里有自己的办公室，而且——

He was holding some cookies shaped like Idaho.

他手里拿着一些形状像爱达荷州的饼干。

I was like, oh, those are cool-looking cookies.

我当时想，哦，这些饼干看起来很酷。

And he was like, oh, do you want them?

他说，哦，你想要它们吗？

And I was like, Sure.

我当时想，当然。

Like, I'm just going to my office right now.

就像，我现在要去办公室。

I'll put them there.

我会把它们放在那里。

And he's like, OK, and just like follows me back.

他说，好吧，然后就跟着我回来了。

Well, I mean, I wasn't too weirded out by it.

嗯，我的意思是，我对此并没有感到太奇怪。

I was just like, OK, like it's just another one of them.

我当时就想，好吧，就像这只是其中的另一个。

Whatever, it's just another sir.

不管怎样，这只是另一个先生。

There's a lot of sirs in there, OK.

里面有很多先生，好吧。

There's sirs everywhere.

到处都是先生。

S-I-R?

先生？

Jane Doe Yeah, sir.

简·多伊 是的，先生。

It's just because you've got to say sir.

只是因为你必须说先生。

Like literally suits -- like men in suits.

就像字面上的西装——就像穿西装的男人。

Jane adds that sir is the kind of male representative who would text her late at night about a non-urgent work question, who'd keep her in his office too long, and who she overheard talking with other sirs about whether she looked better in her tan skirt or her striped one.

简补充说，先生是那种会在深夜给她发短信询问不紧急的工作问题的男性代表，会让她在办公室待得太久，而且她无意中听到他和其他先生谈论她穿棕褐色裙子还是条纹裙子更好看。

She told me there were a lot of sirs in the House.

她告诉我众议院里有很多先生。

Sometimes she'd get this creeping feeling that they would look at her and think, wow, how exotic.

有时她会有一种毛骨悚然的感觉，他们会看着她，心想，哇，多么有异国情调啊。

Jane's Hispanic.

简是西班牙裔。

Many of the other women working in the capitol were blonde and white.

在国会大厦工作的许多其他女性都是金发和白人。

After von Ehlinger gave her those Idaho-shaped cookies, Jane says he was suddenly walking by her desk multiple times a day to make small talk.

简说，冯·埃林格给了她那些爱达荷形状的饼干后，他突然每天多次经过她的办公桌旁闲聊。

He gave her his phone number.

他给了她他的电话号码。

Food seemed to be the main currency of flirting for a lot of the sirs.

对于许多先生来说，食物似乎是调情的主要货币。

Jane says they were constantly offering her snacks from their mini fridges or dropping off lunch.

简说，他们经常从迷你冰箱里给她提供零食或送午餐。

At times, all this free food was nice.

有时，所有这些免费食物都很好。

Jane's internship was unpaid.

简的实习是无薪的。

She was supporting herself and her three-year-old son with a second job.

她靠第二份工作养活自己和三岁的儿子。

She worked the overnight shift at a domestic violence shelter for $8 an hour.

她在家庭暴力庇护所上夜班，每小时 8 美元。

When von Ehlinger eventually asked her out to dinner, Jane says she initially felt reluctant, but talked about it with her friends, who told her to go for the food.

当冯·埃林格最终邀请她出去吃饭时，简说她最初感到不情愿，但和朋友们谈论了这件事，朋友们告诉她去吃饭。

Remember, she was 19 -- only a year out of high school.

请记住，她当时 19 岁——高中毕业仅一年。

He was 38.

他38岁了。

Did you think of it as like, this is a date?

你是否认为这是一次约会？

This is a working dinner?

这是工作餐吗？

This is something in between or who knows?

这是介于两者之间的事情，谁知道呢？

I obviously knew that he was interested in me, but I more or less was like, well, he's going to help me out.

我显然知道他对我感兴趣，但我或多或少地想，好吧，他会帮助我。

Like, because I told him all my interests, right?

就像，因为我告诉了他我所有的兴趣，对吗？

Like, I was like, I want to work on the judiciary system, blah, blah, blah, and he's like, you know, I know these people and I could maybe, you know, connect you with, like, he was, no, he didn't, like, promise anything, but he definitely was like, hey, I could help you out.

就像，我当时想，我想在司法系统工作，等等，等等，他就像，你知道，我认识这些人，我也许可以，你知道，将你与，就像，他是，不，他没有，就像，承诺任何事情，但他肯定是，嘿，我可以帮助你。

And that was my goal.

这就是我的目标。

She wanted to grow her network.

她想扩大自己的人际网络。

Von Ehlinger picked Jane up after she'd finished her internship for the day in a BMW he borrowed from his roommate, then drove her to a steak restaurant downtown.

冯·埃林格 (Von Ehlinger) 在简结束当天的实习后，开着从室友借来的一辆宝马来接她，然后开车送她去了市中心的一家牛排餐厅。

And then over dinner, he had made some weird remarks, and I was like, this is kind of weird.

然后在晚餐时，他说了一些奇怪的言论，我想，这有点奇怪。

What kind of remarks struck you as weird?

什么样的言论让你觉得奇怪？

Because he was like, I have a dry sense of humor.

因为他就像，我有一种冷幽默感。

Like, what are you doing later?

比如，你稍后要做什么？

And I'm like, I'm going to go pick up my son, I guess.

我想，我想我要去接我的儿子了。

Like, I don't know.

就像，我不知道。

Like I'm just going to go home.

就像我要回家一样。

And he's like, oh, well I'm hoping to do you.

他说，哦，好吧，我希望能帮助你。

And he was just laughing, and then he just, like, ate, and then the waiter guy came up and I was like, OK.

他只是笑了，然后他就吃了，然后服务员过来了，我说，好吧。

I just wanted to ignore it.

我只是想忽略它。

Like the other things, I'm just like, oh, just pretend I didn't hear that.

就像其他事情一样，我只是想，哦，假装我没有听到。

Because not to egg it on -- I definitely wasn't trying to make it worse.

因为不是为了怂恿——我绝对不想让事情变得更糟。

And then we were going to leave and I was like, cool, I'm going to go home.

然后我们要离开，我想，酷，我要回家了。

Von Ehlinger was supposed to take her straight back to her car at the capitol, but instead, he made a detour to his apartment, supposedly to run a quick errand.

冯·埃林格本应直接带她回到国会大厦的车上，但他却绕道去了自己的公寓，据说是为了快速办点事。

This is probably evident, but a heads up that this is where the rape happens, and I'm going to give some of those details.

这可能是显而易见的，但请注意，这就是强奸发生的地方，我将提供其中一些细节。

Jane gave me permission and felt it was important to lay out the specifics of what happened to her.

简获得了我的许可，并认为有必要详细说明发生在她身上的事情。

After he parked, Jane felt pressured to go in.

停好车后，简然感到很有压力，想要进去。

She says he opened her car door and reached for her arm.

她说他打开了她的车门并伸手抓住了她的手臂。

She felt anxious knowing that he sometimes carried a handgun.

知道他有时携带手枪，她感到很焦虑。

Once inside his apartment, Jane tried to keep some distance.

进入他的公寓后，简试图保持一定的距离。

She went and sat on his couch, but he picked her up and carried her to his bedroom.

她走到他的沙发上坐下，但他把她抱起来，带到了他的卧室。

I wanted to run out of his -- like I was envisioning myself running out of his room and, like, running down the hall, but it was just in my head.

我想跑出他的房间——就像我想象自己跑出他的房间，沿着走廊跑一样，但这只是在我的脑海里。

Like I couldn't do it.

就像我做不到一样。

I don't know.

我不知道。

Like my brain was shot, like I couldn't move.

就像我的大脑被击中一样，我无法动弹。

You know, when you're paralyzed like, I can't move.

你知道，当你瘫痪时，我无法动弹。

Jane kept saying no, but von Ehlinger forced his penis into her mouth.

简一直拒绝，但冯·埃林格将他的阴茎强行塞进她的嘴里。

She pulled her head away so hard that it snapped back and hit the wall.

她用力地把头拉开，以至于头猛地向后撞到了墙上。

He then climbed on top of her, pinning one of her arms under his knee, masturbating.

然后他爬到她身上，将她的一只手臂压在膝盖下，自慰。

Von Ehlinger was over 6 feet, 200 pounds.

冯·艾林格 (Von Ehlinger) 身高超过 6 英尺，体重 200 磅。

Jane's 5' 3".

简身高 5 英尺 3 英寸。

I just stared at his curtains.

我只是盯着他的窗帘。

They were so dark, like I called them American red in my head, is what I was naming them.

它们太黑了，就像我在脑海中称它们为“美国红”一样，这就是我给它们起的名字。

Like I was in disbelief.

就像我难以置信一样。

Like I said no. I said no. What was I supposed to do?

就像我说不。我说不。我应该做什么？

Hit him?

打他？

Was I supposed to attack him?

我应该攻击他吗？

Like, he should have just gotten off of me, and he didn't.

就像，他应该从我身上离开，但他没有。

He just didn't, and I was so shocked.

他只是没有这样做，我感到非常震惊。

Afterward, she says, he told her, when I'm at this point, I just become an out of control man.

后来，她说，他告诉她，当我到了这个地步，我就变成了一个失控的人。

He then acted like nothing happened and drove her back to her car.

然后他就像什么都没发生一样，开车送她回到车上。

Jane Doe had been assaulted by a state legislator.

无名氏遭到州议员的袭击。

Now she had to try to figure out what to do next.

现在她必须思考下一步该做什么。

Like the vast majority of sexual assault survivors, Jane decided she wasn't going to tell anyone.

和绝大多数性侵犯幸存者一样，简决定不告诉任何人。

She wanted to get back to work.

她想回去工作。

She tried to convince herself she was fine, but that plan fell apart when she showed up back at the capitol for work just a couple of days later.

她试图说服自己自己没事，但几天后她又回到国会大厦上班，这个计划就泡汤了。

And so I was on the ground floor going towards where my office is, and I seen him at the very end, like, walking out of a committee room, and I was like, I can't do this.

所以我在一楼朝我的办公室走去，我看到他在最后，就像从委员会房间里走出来一样，我当时想，我不能这样做。

I can't, I can't do this.

我不能，我不能这样做。

No. I was like, oh my gosh.

不，我当时想，天哪。

I just had to hold on to the wall.

我只得扶着墙。

I was like-

我当时就像——

[EXHALES] Like, you know, right in the middle of a frigging panic attack.

[呼气]就像，你知道，就在一次可怕的恐慌发作中。

I was, like, not functioning.

我就像无法正常工作一样。

I couldn't function.

我无法正常工作。

I was scared.

我很害怕。

I was so scared, like I went straight to Kim Blackburn.

我很害怕，就像我直接去找金·布莱克本一样。

Kim Blackburn.

金·布莱克本。

That's who she talked to -- the assistant sergeant at arms for the House.

这就是她交谈的对象——众议院的助理军士长。

When Jane was a high school page the previous year, Kim was her supervisor.

前一年，当简（Jane）担任高中页面时，金（Kim）是她的主管。

It was hard to find a private place to talk, so they walked out to the rotunda and sat on a bench facing that big Idaho state flag.

很难找到一个私人的地方说话，所以他们走到圆形大厅，坐在一张面向爱达荷州大旗的长凳上。

Jane told Kim that von Ehlinger had raped her, then she went to the bathroom and threw up.

简告诉金，冯·埃林格强奸了她，然后她去洗手间吐了。

Well initially, to even report, I was like -- to convince myself, I was like, well, I'm a citizen.

好吧，一开始，甚至要报告，我就像 - 为了说服自己，我就像，好吧，我是一个公民。

I'm a constituent.

我是选民。

I witnessed a crime brought by one of their legislators and I am giving that to the higher up or whatever, you know what I mean?

我亲眼目睹了他们的一名立法者提起的犯罪行为，我正在将其向上级举报或其他什么，你知道我的意思吗？

I'm reporting that because that's what a good Samaritan does.

我之所以报告这一点，是因为这就是好撒玛利亚人所做的。

That's what you do.

这就是你要做的。

That's what you're supposed to do, and so me being a domestic violence, sexual assault advocate myself, what would I be telling a different 19 year old who got assaulted by a legislator?

这就是你应该做的，所以我自己是一个家庭暴力、性侵犯的倡导者，我会告诉另一个被立法者袭击的 19 岁年轻人什么？

So I was like, cool.

所以我就想，很酷。

Not cool, but like, cool.

不酷，但就像，酷。

Like I will do this.

就像我会这样做一样。

Like I don't really want to do this, but I have to do this?

就像我真的不想这样做，但我必须这样做？

Oh yeah.

哦，是的。

Why would you want to do that?

你为什么要这么做？

Why would anybody want to do that?

为什么有人想要这样做？

Why would anybody choose to be like, yeah, take my life, right?

为什么有人会选择这样，是的，要了我的命，对吧？

My whole life.

我的一生。

So at that point, I was like, fuck it.

所以在那一点上，我想，去他妈的。

This is my job now.

这是我现在的工作。

This is where things started going differently than they would have in years past at the Idaho Capitol.

这就是爱达荷州国会大厦事情开始与往年不同的地方。

Jane didn't know this, but when she told the supervisor about von Ehlinger, she became the first person to publicly test out the legislature's brand new process for responding to sexual misconduct allegations.

简并不知道这一点，但当她告诉主管有关冯·埃林格的事情时，她成为第一个公开测试立法机关应对性行为不端指控的全新流程的人。

The assistant sergeant at arms was now required to share Jane's report with one of the higher ups.

助理军士现在被要求与一位上级分享简的报告。

She went to the top person in the House, the Speaker, who took it very seriously.

她去找了众议院最高领导人议长，议长对此非常重视。

Within minutes of receiving Jane's report, he notified the Attorney General's office, who then notified the Boise Police.

收到简的报告后几分钟内，他通知了总检察长办公室，后者随后通知了博伊西警方。

They took her to a victim center, where a nurse gave her a rape kit exam.

他们把她带到受害者中心，那里的一名护士给她做了强奸试剂盒检查。

But Jane waffled about whether she wanted to move forward with a police investigation and decided she didn't want to press charges.

但简对于是否要继续警方调查犹豫不决，并决定不提出指控。

She wanted to move on, focus on her work, and let the capitol deal with von Ehlinger so another intern didn't get hurt.

她想继续前进，专注于她的工作，并让国会大厦来处理冯·埃林格，这样另一名实习生就不会受伤。

The new protocol at the capitol landed with the Ethics Committee in the Idaho House, but then what?

国会大厦的新协议已提交给爱达荷州众议院的道德委员会，但接下来呢？

While the legislature had a way to respond to sexual misconduct complaints, it did not have any guidelines for how to conduct this kind of investigation.

虽然立法机关有办法回应不当性行为投诉，但没有任何关于如何进行此类调查的指导方针。

Representative Sage Dixon, a Republican from Northern Idaho, chaired the Ethics Committee.

来自爱达荷州北部的共和党众议员塞奇·迪克森 (Sage Dixon) 担任道德委员会主席。

He was the first one on it to see Jane's report.

他是第一个看到简报告的人。

It shocked me because I wasn't aware of any of that, so it was a lot to absorb.

这让我很震惊，因为我对此一无所知，所以需要吸收很多东西。

I was disturbed in thinking that this is quite possibly going to be something larger than we'd like it to be, as far as within Idaho.

我很不安地想到，就爱达荷州而言，这很可能会比我们希望的更大。

Had you ever handled anything like this as a legislator?

作为立法者，你有处理过这样的事情吗？

No. Miki Meek Most everything that happened next, Dixon and his committee had to make up.

不。米基·米克 接下来发生的大部分事情，迪克森和他的委员会都必须弥补。

He had no training on how to run an investigation into a sexual misconduct complaint.

他没有接受过如何对不当性行为投诉进行调查的培训。

His job outside of the House is running an electrical contracting business.

他在众议院之外的工作是经营电力承包业务。

So one of his first thoughts was we should talk to Jane.

所以他的第一个想法是我们应该和简谈谈。

Jane was at the capitol when a secretary notified her to appear before the House Ethics Committee.

当秘书通知简出席众议院道德委员会时，她正在国会大厦。

She didn't know what to expect, so when she headed into that interview, she brought a lawyer who's also a sexual assault advocate.

她不知道会发生什么，所以当她接受采访时，她带来了一位律师，他也是性侵犯倡导者。

And right before we walked in there, all we heard from that room -- a burst of laughter, and so that already made me, like, what the heck?

就在我们走进那里之前，我们从那个房间里听到了所有的声音——一阵笑声，所以这已经让我觉得，到底是什么？

Did you hear that?

你听到了吗？

Me and my lawyer were like, are they laughing right now?

我和我的律师当时想，他们现在在笑吗？

What are they laughing about?

他们在笑什么？

How did that make you feel, walking into that room?

走进那个房间，你感觉如何？

I was more irritated.

我更生气了。

More like confused, kind of hurt -- kind of felt judged.

更像是困惑，有点受伤——有点被评判的感觉。

Dixon says he doesn't remember what they were talking about, but was certain they weren't laughing about Jane.

迪克森说他不记得他们在谈论什么，但确信他们没有嘲笑简。

Once Jane walked in the room, she saw the Ethics Committee was made up of Representatives she saw all the time at her internship.

简一走进房间，就看到道德委员会是由她在实习时经常见到的代表组成的。

She felt ashamed.

她感到羞愧。

They were seated around a long table -- three men and two women.

他们围着一张长桌坐下——三男两女。

She took a seat at the end.

她在最后面坐下。

Dixon asked her to recount the night von Ehlinger raped her, but as soon as she got to the part about him climbing on top of her, Dixon stopped her.

迪克森让她回忆一下冯·埃林格强奸她的那晚，但当她讲到他爬到她身上的部分时，迪克森阻止了她。

He said, quote, "I think maybe the committee's getting uncomfortable, too."

他说，“我认为委员会可能也感到不舒服。”

At first, I was just like, what did you say?

一开始我只是想，你说什么？

Well I didn't say that, but I was like, you are telling me that I'm making you uncomfortable?

好吧，我没这么说，但我想，你是在告诉我我让你不舒服吗？

Like you're telling me -- you're telling me.

就像你告诉我的——你告诉我的。

I was assaulted sexually, but you're uncomfortable with this conversation after you asked me to have this conversation.

我遭到性侵犯，但在你要求我进行这次谈话后，你对这次谈话感到不舒服。

You asked me.

你问我。

You brought me here.

你带我来这里的。

You made this happen, and you're just going to tell me to stop.

你让这件事发生了，你只是要告诉我停下来。

What?

什么？

Like this doesn't, it made me so angry.

就像这不一样，这让我很生气。

I read the transcript of this, and later he said, please don't think that we're, I'm cutting you off because we don't want to hear anything more.

我读了这篇文章的文字记录，后来他说，请不要认为我们是，我打断你，因为我们不想再听到任何事情。

And so, did that clarification make a difference to you?

那么，这个澄清对你有影响吗？

No. Not in any way.

不，无论如何都不是。

Like, that was a huge insult.

就像，这是一个巨大的侮辱。

You made me relive a horrible experience and just tell me you're uncomfortable by it.

你让我重温了一次可怕的经历，只是告诉我你对此感到不舒服。

I was so hurt.

我很受伤。

I was so hurt by Dixon because I know his son.

迪克森让我很受伤，因为我了解他的儿子。

I'm friends with his son.

我和他儿子是朋友。

He was a page with me.

他是我的侍从。

Dang.

当当。

You hurt me, Dixon.

你伤害了我，迪克森。

You hurt me.

你伤害了我。

You hurt me.

你伤害了我。

There are some well-established practices for interviewing sexual assault victims.

采访性侵犯受害者有一些行之有效的做法。

Using trained investigators who know how to interview a victim without re-traumatizing them is one, and those investigators should be external and independent, not people who work together every day.

其中之一是使用训练有素的调查员，他们知道如何采访受害者而不再次伤害他们，这些调查员应该是外部的、独立的，而不是每天一起工作的人。

I asked Dixon about that moment in the room.

我问迪克森在房间里的那一刻。

He told me after Jane left, a Deputy AG who was there told him you don't interrupt sexual assault victims in the middle of their story.

他告诉我，简离开后，在场的一名副总检察长告诉他，不要在性侵犯受害者讲述故事的过程中打断他们。

I could tell Jane Doe was getting visibly disturbed and I didn't want her to be that way, so I told her you don't need to answer any more.

我看得出来简·多伊明显感到不安，我不想让她那样，所以我告诉她你不需要再回答了。

Just dead stop.

就这样死死地停下来。

We're done.

我们完成了。

We're fine, trying to protect her the best way as a husband and a father that I would think to protect somebody that's vulnerable and having a hard time.

我们很好，作为丈夫和父亲，我们正在努力以最好的方式保护她，我认为这是为了保护那些脆弱且处境艰难的人。

Not knowing that dynamic -- now I know that it was hard at that point, that it was one of the difficult things.

不知道那种动态——现在我知道当时很困难，这是困难的事情之一。

So I apologize to her about that.

所以我为此向她道歉。

I'm sure that made it tougher.

我确信这让事情变得更加困难。

The Ethics Committee doesn't investigate crimes.

道德委员会不调查犯罪行为。

They had no protocol for what to do, but they did have this one thing -- something that was clearly in the purview of the Ethics Committee -- conduct unbecoming.

他们没有规定要做什么，但他们确实有这样一件事——这显然属于道德委员会的职权范围——行为不雅。

Was Representative von Ehlinger's conduct conduct unbecoming?

冯·埃林格议员的行为是否不当？

As they looked into it, reports started surfacing about other women he'd pursued and made uncomfortable in his very short time at the capitol -- a journal clerk, a security guard, and a lobbyist who said he followed her to the bathroom.

当他们调查此事时，有关他在国会大厦短暂停留期间追求过并令其感到不舒服的其他女性的报道开始浮出水面——一名日记职员、一名保安和一名说他尾随她去洗手间的说客。

All of them were younger than him.

他们都比他年轻。

The committee also discovered that the top leadership in the House knew about two of these reports.

委员会还发现众议院最高领导层了解其中两份报告。

Instead of confronting von Ehlinger, they sent a representative to warn him to stop being, quote, "overly nice." Dixon and the committee brought these allegations to him and gave von Ehlinger the chance to resign quietly and to avoid any public embarrassment.

他们没有与冯·埃林格对质，而是派了一名代表警告他不要“过于友善”。迪克森和委员会向他提出了这些指控，并给了冯·埃林格一个安静辞职的机会，以避免任何公众尴尬。

But he didn't step down.

但他没有下台。

Instead, he told the committee he and Jane Doe had consensual sex.

相反，他告诉委员会他和无名氏发生了自愿的性行为。

To them, pursuing a sexual relationship of any kind with an intern was not OK.

对他们来说，与实习生发生任何形式的性关系都是不好的。

It seemed like a clear violation of the rule -- conduct unbecoming.

这似乎明显违反了规则——行为不雅。

Since he refused to resign, the only option they had left was to convince two-thirds of the House that von Ehlinger had violated conduct unbecoming.

由于他拒绝辞职，他们唯一的选择就是让众议院三分之二的议员相信冯·埃林格的行为不当。

Then they could get him expelled.

然后他们就可以把他开除。

But to do this, they'd have to hold a public hearing.

但要做到这一点，他们必须举行公开听证会。

Once the hearing was announced, one of von Ehlinger's attorneys did something that shocked Jane and her lawyers -- he released Jane's name to reporters.

听证会宣布后，冯·埃林格的一位律师做了一件令简和她的律师震惊的事情——他向记者公布了简的名字。

It ended up on a far right news site with her photo.

它最终出现在一个最右边的新闻网站上，上面有她的照片。

Jane was no longer anonymous.

简不再是匿名的。

I'm just like, holy shit, my world is ending.

我只是想，天啊，我的世界就要结束了。

Nobody would talk to me.

没有人愿意跟我说话。

Nobody would even look at me in the eye anymore.

甚至没有人会再看我的眼睛。

I went from smiling and waving to everybody to nobody would look at me.

我从微笑着向每个人挥手，变成了没有人会看我。

And so then that's when I was really like, dang, they hate me.

那时我真的很想，天哪，他们恨我。

Like everybody in that state house just hates me.

就像州议会大厦里的每个人都讨厌我一样。

An ally of von Ehlinger in the House went after Jane, too -- a then representative named Priscilla Giddings.

冯·埃林格在众议院的一位盟友也追捕简——当时的代表名叫普里西拉·吉丁斯。

She posted Jane's photo on Facebook and emailed a newsletter to her constituents calling von Ehlinger Idaho's very own Kavanaugh and Jane a honey trap out on a liberal smear job.

她在 Facebook 上发布了简的照片，并通过电子邮件向她的选民发送了一封时事通讯，称冯·埃林格·爱达荷州自己的卡瓦诺和简是自由派诽谤工作的美人计。

The hearing, she said, was part of a national #MeToo witch hunt.

她说，这次听证会是全国#MeToo 政治迫害活动的一部分。

I reached out to Giddings, but she didn't respond.

我联系了吉丁斯，但她没有回应。

Jane tried to keep going to work, but she hated that every time someone looked at her, they thought about the rape.

简试图继续去工作，但她讨厌每次有人看着她时，他们都会想到强奸案。

She couldn't function and needed to get out of the capitol.

她无法正常工作，需要离开国会大厦。

Back at home, all she could do to get through the day was sleep.

回到家，她能做的就是睡觉来度过这一天。

She couldn't keep food down and was failing all of her college classes except for one -- a criminal justice course.

她无法控制食物，除了一门刑事司法课程外，她所有的大学课程都未及格。

I'm not even kidding.

我什至没有开玩笑。

I'm not even kidding.

我什至没有开玩笑。

It was victimology.

这是受害者学。

I was taking victimology all through that.

整个过程中我都在研究受害者学。

In victimology, one of the things they talk about is how victims are often re-traumatized by the very systems that are supposed to get them justice.

在受害者学中，他们谈论的一件事是受害者如何经常受到本应为他们伸张正义的系统的再次伤害。

If you're a victim of sexual violence, the trauma is about having no power, so any attempt toward justice -- police, court, or HR procedures -- should be designed to make sure the person feels a sense of control.

如果你是性暴力的受害者，创伤就是没有权力，所以任何伸张正义的尝试——警察、法庭或人力资源程序——都应该旨在确保这个人有一种控制感。

For instance, before a victim even makes a report, they should know what all the possible steps of the process could be.

例如，在受害者提出报告之前，他们应该知道该过程的所有可能步骤是什么。

That way, they can decide if they still want to proceed.

这样，他们就可以决定是否仍要继续。

And if it's a workplace like the state house, you want to give the victim the option to give their testimony in private instead of forcing them to retell and relive their assault in public.

如果是像州议会大厦这样的工作场所，您希望让受害者可以选择私下提供证词，而不是强迫他们在公共场合重述和重温他们的攻击行为。

In the Idaho House, the process wasn't designed with the sexual assault victim in mind.

在爱达荷州众议院，这一过程的设计并未考虑到性侵犯受害者。

Instead, it looked a lot more like a regular criminal trial.

相反，它看起来更像是一场普通的刑事审判。

Dixon talked a lot about von Ehlinger's right to defend himself, while Jane says she wasn't consulted about whether she even wanted to come to the hearing.

迪克森谈了很多关于冯·埃林格为自己辩护的权利，而简说，没有人询问她是否愿意参加听证会。

They issued a subpoena for her to appear.

他们发出传票要求她出庭。

I asked Dixon why he thought that was necessary.

我问迪克森为什么他认为这是必要的。

We were subpoenaing other witnesses, and so to maintain that consistency, I think, is why, and just that it didn't look like we were favoring one side or the other.

我们传唤了其他证人，所以我认为，为了保持这种一致性，这就是原因，只是看起来我们并不偏袒某一方。

Because it is a subpoena, if she hadn't appeared, then arrest is the consequence of that, right?

因为是传票，如果她不出庭，那么后果就是被捕吧？

Yes.

是的。

I don't think it's absolute that arrest is a consequence of that.

我认为逮捕并不是绝对的结果。

If we wanted to take it to that end, we could have.

如果我们想达到这个目的，我们可以做到。

So if she hadn't come, I mean, what would have --

所以如果她没有来，我的意思是，会发生什么——

I don't know, Miki.

我不知道，米基。

That's tough because I feel she needed to be there for the face-your-accuser portion of it.

这很难，因为我觉得她需要在那里面对你的指控者。

In the days leading up to the hearing, Jane's lawyer said they did everything they could to prevent the hearing from being a disaster for her.

在听证会前几天，简的律师表示，他们已尽一切努力防止听证会对她来说是一场灾难。

They asked if she could testify remotely and with her voice disguised, or even better, in a closed session that wasn't open to the public.

他们询问她是否可以远程作证，并伪装声音，或者更好的是，在不向公众开放的闭门会议中作证。

They said the answer they always got back from the Attorney General's office was no. No one seems to have a clear answer on why this was.

他们说，他们从总检察长办公室得到的答案总是是否定的。似乎没有人能明确回答这是为什么。

One of the Deputy AG's running the case declined to comment.

负责此案的一名副总检察长拒绝发表评论。

Dixon told me he never received her attorney's requests and says he would have been open to Jane testifying remotely.

迪克森告诉我，他从未收到过她律师的请求，并表示他愿意接受简远程作证。

In the end, Jane's lawyer said the only protection that was offered up to her were those black curtains.

最后，简的律师表示，为她提供的唯一保护就是那些黑色的窗帘。

She would tell her story in public, behind a black curtain.

她会在黑幕后公开讲述她的故事。

Miki Meek.

米基·米克.

Coming up -- the hearing and the protective power of tennis shoes.

接下来——网球鞋的听力和保护能力。

That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.

芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。

This American Life.

这美国生活。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Today's program -- Jane Doe.

今天的节目——Jane Doe。

Five years since #MeToo blew up and there are all these systems that are supposed to crank into action now when somebody steps forward, we have the story of Jane Doe, a teenager in Idaho.

自#MeToo 爆发五年以来，当有人挺身而出时，所有这些系统都应该立即启动，我们有爱达荷州青少年简·多伊的故事。

Now to be clear, Jane Doe did not come forward because of #MeToo.

现在需要澄清的是，无名氏并不是因为#MeToo而站出来的。

Actually, when our producer, Miki Meek, asked her about it, Jane said all she knew about #MeToo is that it was something for celebrities.

事实上，当我们的制片人米基·米克 (Miki Meek) 问及此事时，简说她只知道 #MeToo 是名人的活动。

Nonetheless, the response to her was shaped by #MeToo.

尽管如此，人们对她的反应还是受到#MeToo 运动的影响。

She was a test case of the legislature's new reporting system that they were making up as they went.

她是立法机关新报告制度的一个测试案例，该制度是他们边走边编造的。

We pick up our story with Act Two, The Witness.

我们从第二幕《证人》开始我们的故事。

Heads up, this part of the story contains brief references to suicide.

请注意，故事的这一部分包含有关自杀的简短提及。

Here's Miki.

这是米基。

The morning of the hearing, Jane woke up terrified.

听证会当天早上，简被吓坏了。

She had a full blown panic attack and threw up.

她惊恐发作，呕吐了。

She jumped in the shower and put on "Beautiful" by Eminem to try and pump herself up.

她跳进淋浴间，播放阿姆的《Beautiful》，试图让自己打起精神。

She then put on a black dress.

然后她穿上了一件黑色连衣裙。

This was an inside joke to herself because she felt like she was about to attend her own funeral.

这是她自己的一个内心笑话，因为她觉得自己即将参加自己的葬礼。

Jane's mom picked her up and they headed to the capitol.

简的妈妈接了她，然后他们前往国会大厦。

Her lawyers told me that nobody came up with a secure plan to get her into the building without people seeing who she was.

她的律师告诉我，没有人想出一个安全的计划，让她在不被人看到她是谁的情况下进入大楼。

So one of her lawyers reached out to a senator who met Jane and her mom at a private entrance outside the capitol, then led them through a series of tunnels and some back hallways until Jane finally got to a door in the hearing room.

因此，她的一位律师联系了一位参议员，这位参议员在国会大厦外的一个私人入口遇见了简和她的妈妈，然后带领他们穿过一系列隧道和一些后走廊，直到简最终到达听证室的一扇门。

She looked at the curtains and a random bronze statue of Abraham Lincoln's head.

她看着窗帘和随意摆放的亚伯拉罕·林肯头像青铜雕像。

Her chair was right in front of him.

她的椅子就在他面前。

His eyes wouldn't move, you know?

他的眼睛不会转动，你知道吗？

He was just staring at me the whole time, and I was like, OK.

他一直盯着我看，我当时想，好吧。

It was just weird.

这很奇怪。

It was just flat out weird.

这实在是太奇怪了。

What did you think when you saw that black curtain?

当你看到那块黑色的窗帘时，你有什么感想？

Well, I was like, I can see through this.

好吧，我当时想，我能看透这一点。

I can see everybody.

我可以看到每个人。

Like, they can see me, and I was kind of freaking out at first, but they really couldn't see me.

就像，他们可以看到我，一开始我有点害怕，但他们真的看不到我。

From her side, the curtain looked more sheer.

从她这边看，窗帘显得更加透明。

She looked through it to a room packed with legislators and press.

她透过窗户看到一间挤满了立法者和媒体的房间。

The people who could actually see her, though, included five Ethics Committee members, their counsel, a secretary, two Deputy AG's, von Ehlinger's attorney, and von Ehlinger.

不过，真正能见到她的人包括五名道德委员会成员、他们的律师、一名秘书、两名副总检察长、冯·埃林格的律师和冯·埃林格。

Jane had only seen him around the capitol a couple of times since he raped her.

自从他强奸了她之后，简只在国会大厦附近见过他几次。

Her black curtain was slightly open to give those people line of sight on Jane during the hearing.

她的黑色窗帘微微拉开，让那些人在听证会期间可以看到简。

My body was not there.

我的身体不在那里。

I just held so tight to my chair -- just held on to it just so I had something.

我紧紧地抓住我的椅子——只是抓住它，这样我就有了东西。

And you knew they weren't going to protect your voice going into it?

你知道他们不会保护你的声音吗？

No. Miki Meek Jane's voice was live-streamed.

不。Miki Meek Jane 的声音是现场直播的。

The hearing was broadcast online.

听证会通过网络直播。

I think we need to be able to cross-examine the accuser here.

我认为我们需要能够在这里盘问原告。

That's von Ehlinger's attorney.

那是冯·埃林格的律师。

Publicly cross-examining witnesses of sexual assault is certainly not best practice for this kind of thing.

公开盘问性侵犯的证人当然不是这类事情的最佳做法。

For instance, other state legislatures that have adopted procedures for handling complaints do not allow victims to be cross-examined in public, certainly not by the perpetrators.

例如，其他已采取处理投诉程序的州立法机构不允许受害者接受公开盘问，当然也不允许施暴者接受盘问。

But again, they had no process for this in Idaho.

但同样，他们在爱达荷州没有任何流程。

So von Ehlinger's lawyer adopted tactics out of a criminal trial.

因此，冯·埃林格的律师采取了刑事审判中的策略。

He predictably turned Jane into the defendant, following the usual playbook that gets used on sexual assault victims.

不出所料，他遵循了针对性侵犯受害者的惯常做法，将简变成了被告。

He cast her as mentally unstable and a flirt, which was a thing Jane had felt around the capitol ever since she reported von Ehlinger.

他把她描绘成精神不稳定、爱调情的人，自从简举报冯·埃林格以来，她就在国会大厦感受到了这一点。

That she was being judged and cast, in her words, as a, quote, "gold digging, crazy Mexican pothead." Von Ehlinger's lawyer nitpicked tiny details to insinuate that maybe she was a liar.

用她的话来说，她被评判和选为“淘金者，疯狂的墨西哥瘾君子”。冯·埃林格的律师对一些小细节吹毛求疵，暗示她可能是个骗子。

I'm just wondering if you can just read that -- just that one sentence.

我只是想知道你是否能读一下——就那一句话。

On the night of March 10, 2021, she met him in downtown Boise.

2021 年 3 月 10 日晚上，她在博伊西市中心遇见了他。

Thank you.

谢谢你。

But it wasn't March 10, 2021, was it?

但这不是 2021 年 3 月 10 日，不是吗？

No. Edward Dindinger It was March 9th.

不，Edward Dindinger 那是 3 月 9 日。

Isn't that correct?

这不是正确的吗？

Yes, I told police that.

是的，我告诉警察了。

Edward Dindinger OK, why did you tell Miss Blackburn that it was March 10?

爱德华·丁丁格 好吧，你为什么告诉布莱克本小姐今天是 3 月 10 日？

The supervisor who Jane had reported to is the one who accidentally made a mistake in her written report, not Jane.

简汇报的主管是她的书面报告中不小心写错的人，而不是简。

Meanwhile, von Ehlinger barely spoke.

与此同时，冯·埃林格几乎没有说话。

He kept pleading the fifth.

他不断恳求第五个。

When the Ethics Committee kept pointing out that this wasn't a criminal proceeding and it didn't apply, he still refused.

当道德委员会不断指出这不是刑事诉讼并且不适用时，他仍然拒绝。

What sucked up most of the time, though, was the core of von Ehlinger's defense, which was essentially, this was not rape -- we were dating, which is allowed.

然而，大多数时候最糟糕的是冯·埃林格辩护的核心，从本质上讲，这不是强奸——我们正在约会，这是允许的。

There's no anti-fraternization policy in the Idaho state house.

爱达荷州议会没有反友好政策。

Again, here's his attorney.

再说一次，这是他的律师。

Does Representative von Ehlinger have any hiring or firing authority over you?

冯·埃林格代表对您有聘用或解雇的权力吗？

No. Edward Dindinger Does Representative von Ehlinger have any supervisory authority over you?

没有。 Edward Dindinger 代表 von Ehlinger 对您有任何监督权吗？

He asked some version of this question more than 30 times to different witnesses.

他向不同的目击者问过这个问题的不同版本超过 30 次。

Are you aware of any policy that would be violated by a representative having a relationship with an intern of the age of majority?

您是否知道与达到法定年龄的实习生有关系的代表会违反任何政策？

Thank you.

谢谢。

Miki Meek He's basically saying, tell me where it says a powerful, middle aged legislator can't date a 19-year-old intern, and always got the same answer.

Miki Meek 他基本上是在说，告诉我哪里说有权有势的中年立法者不能和 19 岁的实习生约会，但总是得到相同的答案。

Written policy, no. Representative 2 Not that I'm, not that I'm aware of.

书面政策，没有。代表 2 我不是这样，我也不知道。

Von Ehlinger's lawyer did the same kind of thing with the other woman who testified about von Ehlinger's troubling behavior.

冯·埃林格的律师对另一位为冯·埃林格的令人不安的行为作证的女性做了同样的事情。

Like a chief clerk who said one of her employees complained when von Ehlinger asked her out.

就像一位首席文员说，当冯·埃林格约她出去时，她的一名员工抱怨了。

His attorney's response to that was, she wasn't wearing a wedding ring, which of course, has nothing to do with whether von Ehlinger should have asked her out at work.

他的律师对此的回应是，她没有戴结婚戒指，这当然与冯·埃林格是否应该约她出去工作无关。

His attorney charged ahead.

他的律师冲锋在前。

Ms. Maulin, in your experience, isn't wearing a wedding ring a generally accepted sign that a woman is unavailable?

莫林女士，根据您的经验，戴结婚戒指不是一个普遍接受的表明女人无法相处的标志吗？

It can be construed that way, but I don't think that that's a requirement to be unavailable.

可以这样解释，但我不认为这是不可用的要求。

I didn't ask if it was a requirement.

我没有问是否有要求。

Is it completely unreasonable, in your opinion, for an individual who is interested in a woman to notice that she is not wearing a wedding ring and assume he's permitted to ask her a question?

在您看来，一个对某个女人感兴趣的人注意到她没有戴结婚戒指并认为他可以问她问题，这是完全不合理的吗？

I don't think a wedding ring is indicative of whether or not you can ask a woman a question.

我不认为结婚戒指代表你是否可以向女人提问。

This is an absurd thing to argue, but he's also arguing inside an absurd, incoherent set of rules.

这是一件荒谬的事情，但他也是在一套荒谬、不连贯的规则中进行争论。

The Idaho legislature has a process for reporting sexual harassment, but not actually a policy against it in the rules for the Senate and the House.

爱达荷州立法机构有报告性骚扰的程序，但实际上参议院和众议院的规则中并没有针对性骚扰的政策。

They don't have an anti-fraternization policy, but they have rules about decorum -- rules forbidding smoking, drinking, and eating on the House floor.

他们没有反亲善政策，但有礼仪规则——禁止在众议院吸烟、饮酒和饮食。

A rule about conduct unbecoming of a state legislator, but nothing for sexual harassment.

一条关于州立法者行为不当的规定，但没有针对性骚扰的规定。

The part of the hearing I'd always wanted to know more about ever since I first saw it was what happened when Jane finally walked away from that black curtain.

自从我第一次看到听证会以来，我一直想更多地了解听证会的一部分，那就是当简最终走开黑幕时发生的事情。

She sat behind it for 40 minutes, answering questions.

她在后面坐了 40 分钟，回答问题。

I freaking lose it.

我差点失去它。

I lose it.

我失去了它。

And then I was just angry.

然后我就生气了。

I was like, I'm going to get the F out of here.

我当时想，我要把F带出这里。

I don't want to be here anymore.

我不想再呆在这里了。

You think I want to help you?

你以为我想帮你吗？

Jane told me that when she stood up to leave, she had a panic attack.

简告诉我，当她站起来准备离开时，她惊恐发作。

There was a private exit she was supposed to go out of, but she was so upset that she pushed through the wrong door and landed out in a public hallway.

她本来应该从一个私人出口出去，但她太沮丧了，推错了门，落在了公共走廊上。

That's when that scream came out of her.

就在这时，她发出了尖叫声。

[SCREAM] Jane Doe Just start running up the hallway, and that's when I heard people behind me.

[尖叫] Jane Doe 刚开始沿着走廊跑，就在那时我听到了身后有人的声音。

Some of von Ehlinger's supporters -- all women -- followed her out into the hallway.

冯·埃林格的一些支持者——全是女性——跟着她走到走廊上。

There was a local reporter with them, too.

和他们一起的还有一名当地记者。

They crowded around her and started filming Jane with their phones.

他们围在她身边，开始用手机拍摄简。

I broke.

我打破了。

I broke.

我打破了。

I screamed.

我尖叫起来。

I screamed a lot.

我尖叫了很多。

Like screaming how much I was going to kill myself.

就像尖叫我多么想自杀。

All I wanted to do was get to the top of the building.

我只想到达大楼的顶部。

She was trying to get to a balcony in the rotunda to throw herself off.

她试图跑到圆形大厅的阳台上跳下去。

Her lawyers blocked her.

她的律师阻止了她。

Jane collapsed on the ground.

简瘫倒在地上。

Her mom held her while her lawyers pulled out an umbrella and opened it to try and block her face from the people filming her.

她的妈妈抱着她，而她的律师拉出一把雨伞并打开它，试图挡住她的脸，让拍摄她的人看不到。

It took several minutes before security at the capitol finally showed up and escorted Jane out of the building.

几分钟后，国会大厦的保安终于出现并护送简出了大楼。

The hearing lasted two days.

听证会持续了两天。

At the end of the second day, the committee recommended to expel him.

第二天结束时，委员会建议将他开除。

He resigned just hours later.

几个小时后他就辞职了。

Representative Dixon, head of the Ethics Committee, saw this as a successful outcome.

道德委员会主席、众议员迪克森认为这是一个成功的结果。

I told Dixon how traumatizing the whole experience was for Jane, and what happened after she ran out of the hearing room.

我告诉迪克森整个经历对简来说是多么的痛苦，以及她跑出听证室后发生的事情。

I mean, if that's what the consequences were for her for showing up in public -- for testifying in public, I mean, is it, yeah, was it worth having her be in public like that?

我的意思是，如果这就是她公开露面的后果——公开作证，我的意思是，是的，值得让她那样公开吗？

Probably not.

可能不会。

But again, this was all new to us as a committee.

但同样，这对我们委员会来说都是新鲜事。

Not being familiar with that trauma and how it expresses itself in people, we had no idea and did everything we thought we were doing correctly to protect her.

由于不熟悉这种创伤以及它如何在人们身上表达，我们不知道并做了我们认为正确的一切来保护她。

But I think we could have gone on without that because we did have her previous testimony that we could have brought up and had or showed everybody.

但我认为，如果没有这个，我们也可以继续下去，因为我们确实有她之前的证词，我们可以提出并拥有或向所有人展示。

We had the transcripts that we were able to show to the body, which again, was important to me so that they knew what we had known.

我们有可以向尸体出示的笔录，这对我来说很重要，这样他们就能知道我们所知道的事情。

And that probably would have sufficed.

这可能就足够了。

This, of course, is impossible to know.

当然，这是不可能知道的。

Another member of the Ethics Committee told me they thought without Jane's testimony in person, von Ehlinger would still be in the legislature.

道德委员会的另一位成员告诉我，他们认为如果没有简亲自作证，冯·埃林格仍将留在立法机构。

I mean, is there anything that you would want her to know or that you...

我的意思是，有什么你想让她知道的事情或者你...

Just I'm very sorry if we increased that trauma or that we did, because it never was our intent.

只是如果我们增加了这种创伤或者我们确实这么做了，我感到非常抱歉，因为这从来都不是我们的本意。

I know each one of those members feels very strongly that she was wronged and wanted to protect her, but just due to our inexperience, things didn't come out maybe as cleanly as they could have.

我知道每一位成员都强烈地感到自己受到了委屈，并想保护她，但由于我们缺乏经验，事情可能并没有像他们本可以的那样干净利落。

So what happened to Jane after all of that?

那么在这一切之后简发生了什么？

She never finished the internship she loved at the capitol, and after the hearing, never went back to her office with her name in all caps.

她从未完成她喜欢的在国会大厦的实习，听证会结束后，她再也没有带着自己的名字全部大写回到办公室。

Five months after the hearing, she was cleaning houses and she was a wreck.

听证会结束后五个月，她正在打扫房屋，但她已经崩溃了。

She'd lost 20 pounds.

她减掉了 20 磅。

She couldn't stop replaying the assault and the hearing in her head.

她无法停止在脑海中回放这次袭击和听证会。

So much of her day-to-day now was a physical battle.

现在她的日常生活大部分时间都是在进行身体上的战斗。

She was dealing with severe PTSD.

她正在应对严重的创伤后应激障碍。

Just going on the freeway and you would see the tip of the capitol, like my body would just, like [GASP].

只要走在高速公路上，你就会看到国会大厦的尖端，就像我的身体一样，就像[喘息]。

Immediately.

立即地。

Just like when you're falling, can you imagine just that [GASP] moment?

就像你跌倒时一样，你能想象那个[喘息]的时刻吗？

Like just staying in that.

就像只是呆在里面一样。

My body is just in a state of shock, you know?

我的身体正处于休克状态，你知道吗？

Like, frozen.

就像，冻结了。

She was still getting harassed by von Ehlinger sympathizers who continued to publish her name online.

她仍然受到冯·埃林格同情者的骚扰，他们继续在网上发布她的名字。

Random strangers had shown up at her old apartment, asking questions.

随机的陌生人出现在她的旧公寓里，提出问题。

There was even a man who'd show up at Boise political events, mocking her, dressed as a woman, wearing a sash with Jane's real name on it.

甚至有一个男人会出现在博伊西的政治活动中，嘲笑她，打扮成女人，戴着一条写着简真名的腰带。

There were also people who sympathized with her, too, and that was also hard.

也有人同情她，这也很难。

When she was out in public, she never knew when someone was going to try and approach her.

当她出现在公共场合时，她永远不知道什么时候会有人试图接近她。

Where does this come up when you get recognized?

当你被认出时，这个问题会出现在哪里？

So I went to a job fair, OK, and it was just a bunch of booths of people, and you just go to the next one.

所以我去了一个招聘会，好吧，那只是一堆人的摊位，你只需去下一个。

And this one lady I went up to went, and I was like, you know, my name is [BLEEP].

我去找一位女士，我当时想，你知道，我的名字是[BLEEP]。

I worked here and here, blah, blah, blah.

我在这里和这里工作过，等等，等等。

I think I'd be, I'd like to take an application.

我想我会，我愿意申请。

And she's just like, her eyes were already watering.

她就像，她的眼睛已经流泪了。

Like she was already, like, crying, and she's like, miss, did you, are you Jane Doe?

就像她已经哭了，她说，小姐，你是吗，你是简·多伊吗？

What did you say?

你说什么？

Jane Doe I was like, fuck.

Jane Doe 我当时想，操。

But I was like, yes.

但我想，是的。

Yes, ma'am.

是的，女士。

Like, yeah.

就像，是的。

And she's like, oh my gosh.

她就像，天哪。

Like, I watched that, blah, blah, blah.

就这样，我看了，哈哈哈，哈哈哈。

And then I was recognized again at the Walmart, and that lady recognized me by my face.

然后我在沃尔玛再次被认出，那位女士通过我的脸认出了我。

You know, and then that's when a lot of people try to share their frickin' rape stories, and you're just like, I really don't want to hear that.

你知道，那时很多人试图分享他们该死的强奸故事，而你就像，我真的不想听到这个。

Like, I'm still recovering from my own.

就像，我还在从自己的痛苦中恢复过来。

Like, why would you share that?

比如，你为什么要分享这个？

So not that I don't care, per se, right?

所以这并不是说我不关心，对吧？

But I don't care.

但我不在乎。

I don't want to hear it.

我不想听。

Jane started talking about herself in the past tense.

简开始用过去时态谈论自己。

I was high energy.

我精力充沛。

I was spunky.

我很勇敢。

I was funny.

我很有趣。

And her plans felt past tense, too.

她的计划也感觉已经成为过去式。

She no longer talked about being a lawmaker.

她不再谈论成为立法者。

She was sure she could never set foot back in the capitol, and was thinking about moving out of state.

她确信自己永远无法回到国会大厦，并正在考虑搬出州。

The state house had a process to take her seriously when she reported von Ehlinger, but after that, they had nothing.

当她举报冯·埃林格时，州议会有一个严肃对待她的程序，但在那之后，他们什么也没有了。

Jane felt like they weren't concerned with what the experience did to her.

简觉得他们并不关心这次经历对她造成的影响。

They just needed my testimony.

他们只是需要我的证词。

They needed to do this because they needed to do their jobs.

他们需要这样做，因为他们需要做好自己的工作。

Like they didn't really look at me as a human.

就像他们并没有真正把我当作一个人一样。

They were just, oh, well she reported this, so she got to do this.

他们只是，哦，好吧，她报告了这件事，所以她必须这样做。

So might as well just fucking make her, right?

所以也许他妈的就让她这么做吧？

Like that's what it felt like, that they only needed me to get this process going.

感觉就是这样，他们只需要我来推动这个过程。

Like they didn't consider anything else.

就像他们没有考虑任何其他事情一样。

And so I mean, that's where it gets me.

所以我的意思是，这就是它让我着迷的地方。

Like I mean, what would you do, what would you have done if I was your kid?

就像我的意思是，如果我是你的孩子，你会怎么做？

What would you have made sure happen if I was yours?

如果我是你的，你会确保发生什么？

All Jane had wanted to do was work at the capitol, but after she got doxxed, she said everyone there who talked to her about job opportunities went silent.

简一直想做的就是在国会大厦工作，但在她被人肉搜索后，她说那里所有与她谈论工作机会的人都沉默了。

To make money, she started helping her stepdad out at his plumbing business and picked up work as a caregiver at a memory care facility.

为了赚钱，她开始帮助继父做水管生意，并在一家记忆护理机构找到了一份护理员的工作。

And then one year after the ethics hearing, Jane got a rare sort of do over of the entire ordeal with von Ehlinger.

道德听证会一年后，简罕见地重新经历了冯·埃林格的整个磨难。

The District Attorney in the County for Boise charged him with felony rape.

博伊西县地方检察官指控他犯有强奸重罪。

This happened because after she got doxxed, Jane told the police she'd cooperate with the criminal case.

发生这种情况是因为简在被人肉搜索后告诉警方，她会配合刑事案件的调查。

She was so scared all the time, she felt like she had to for her own protection.

她一直很害怕，她觉得为了保护自己，她必须这么做。

This time, things went very differently.

这一次，事情发生了很大的变化。

The prosecutors handling her case understood that they needed to deal with her with care.

处理她案件的检察官明白他们需要谨慎对待她。

They walked her through each step so she always knew what to expect.

他们引导她完成每一步，所以她总是知道会发生什么。

They did not subpoena her.

他们没有传唤她。

They intentionally built a whole case where she didn't have to take the stand.

他们故意制造了一个完整的案件，让她不必出庭作证。

They had other witnesses like the nurse who did Jane's rape kit exam.

他们还有其他证人，比如对简进行强奸试剂盒检查的护士。

But Jane decided that she did want to testify against von Ehlinger.

但简决定她确实想出庭作证指控冯·埃林格。

A Sheriff picked her up in an unmarked car and drove her to a secret courthouse entrance.

一名警长开着一辆没有标记的汽车接她，并将她带到一个秘密的法院入口。

She had a therapy dog named Yuko in the courtroom and a victim witness coordinator by her side.

她在法庭上养了一只名叫 Yuko 的治疗犬，身边还有一名受害者证人协调员。

I was there, sitting a couple rows behind von Ehlinger, but even with all that support, watching Jane on the stand that day was harrowing.

我当时就在那里，坐在冯·埃林格后面几排，但即使有这么多的支持，那天看着简站在证人席上还是令人痛苦。

She looked like she was having an out-of-body experience.

她看起来就像有灵魂出窍的经历。

She stared at him blankly and could barely talk.

她茫然地看着他，几乎说不出话来。

When she tried to answer questions about how he'd raped her, she suddenly stopped.

当她试图回答有关他如何强奸她的问题时，她突然停了下来。

She pushed her chair away from the mic, stood up, and said, I can't do this.

她把椅子从麦克风旁推开，站起来说，我不能这样做。

She walked out of the courtroom.

她走出法庭。

So I ran out of the room and immediately fell down a flight of stairs.

于是我跑出了房间，立刻从楼梯上摔了下来。

Like that sounds stupid, but I did, and I don't know what, in my mind, like, I just needed to run, and then I ran across Front Street.

这听起来很愚蠢，但我做到了，而且我不知道在我看来，我只需要跑，然后我跑过前街。

I ran across Myrtle, which is the big road.

我跑过默特尔，那是大路。

Big, busy roads -- downtown Boise.

宽阔、繁忙的道路——博伊西市中心。

Four lanes.

四车道。

I was trying to go to the bridge, OK.

我正试图去桥上，好吧。

In my brain, that's where I was going, but my ankle was getting to me.

在我的脑海里，那是我要去的地方，但我的脚踝正在逼近我。

The bridge, she says, because maybe she could jump.

这座桥，她说，因为也许她可以跳下去。

She was having a post-traumatic reaction.

她出现了创伤后反应。

Same as at the hearing, Jane's first instinct was to do what she hadn't been able to do the night she was raped: run away.

和听证会上一样，简的第一反应是去做她被强奸当晚没能做到的事情：逃跑。

She'd torn a tendon and leaned up against a tree.

她拉伤了肌腱，靠在一棵树上。

One of her attorneys named Guy followed her out to try to calm her.

她的一位名叫盖伊的律师尾随​​她出去，试图让她平静下来。

Guy says when the police showed up, one of them grabbed her arm and dropped her to the ground.

盖伊说，当警察出现时，其中一名警察抓住她的手臂，将她扔到地上。

Jane was so distraught, she doesn't remember that.

简然心烦意乱，她不记得了。

So many people.

这么多人。

It was like nine different officers on me, and I was just on the floor.

就像九个不同的警察在对付我，而我只是躺在地板上。

I was just screaming and, like, hitting my head over and over.

我只是尖叫着，就像一遍又一遍地敲着我的头。

And I looked over, and I'll never forget this, and I seen Guy on his hands and knees.

我看过去，我永远不会忘记这一点，我看到盖伊双手和膝盖着地。

He was crying.

他在哭。

Jane Doe And he was, like, shaking his head.

Jane Doe 他就像是在摇头。

And I don't know what about that hurt me, and I stopped for a second.

我不知道这对我造成了什么伤害，我停了下来。

During this brief pause, the police put a full body restraint wrap, a helmet, and handcuffs on Jane.

在这短暂的停顿期间，警察给简戴上了全身束缚带、头盔和手铐。

They put her in a squad car and transferred her to a hospital for psychiatric care.

他们把她送进警车，然后将她转移到医院接受精神治疗。

She spent three days there.

她在那里呆了三天。

When she was released, her mom picked her up.

当她被释放时，她妈妈接走了她。

As soon as they pulled on the freeway, a text showed up on her mom's phone.

他们一驶上高速公路，她妈妈的手机上就出现了一条短信。

I hear [DING SOUND] and then she, like [GASP].

我听到[丁声]，然后她，就像[喘息]。

She's like, do you want to read that?

她说，你想读那个吗？

And I'm just like, OK.

我只是想，好吧。

I have a smoothie in my hand, like...

我手里拿着一杯冰沙，就像……

It was a text from one of Jane's attorneys.

这是简的一位律师发来的短信。

The jury in von Ehlinger's trial had just come to a verdict.

冯·埃林格案的陪审团刚刚做出裁决。

I didn't believe it.

我不相信。

I was like, no way.

我当时想，没办法。

What?

什么？

Why didn't you believe it?

你为什么不相信呢？

Jane Doe Nobody thought that he would have, oh, just a slap on the wrist he's going to get because he's a good old boy or, there were so many comments.

Jane Doe 没有人想到他会因为他是个好老男孩而受到，哦，只是一记耳光，或者，有这么多的评论。

When do you get to hear about a prosecuted, convicted for what they did.

你什么时候会听到有人因自己的所作所为而被起诉、定罪。

And he got that.

他明白了。

You know how lucky I am?

你知道我有多幸运吗？

It's true Jane is the best case scenario for what a rape survivor can get.

确实，简是强奸幸存者所能得到的最好的情况。

Von Ehlinger was kicked out of the Idaho Capitol a month and a half after she reported.

冯·埃林格在她举报后一个半月就被赶出了爱达荷州国会大厦。

He was arrested, and a judge sentenced him to 20 years in prison.

他被捕，法官判处他 20 年监禁。

Less than 3% of sexual assaults ever result in a conviction or incarceration, but the lived reality of best case scenario for Jane hardly feels like a win.

不到 3% 的性侵犯最终会被定罪或监禁，但对于 Jane 来说，最好的情况在现实生活中几乎感觉不到胜利。

Von Ehlinger still maintains he did nothing wrong.

冯·埃林格仍然坚称自己没有做错任何事。

He's appealing his conviction to the state Supreme Court.

他正在向州最高法院上诉。

His sympathizers continue to harass her, and she regularly sees a psychiatrist and a therapist for PTSD.

他的同情者继续骚扰她，她经常去看精神科医生和创伤后应激障碍治疗师。

She takes ice baths a few times a week to shock herself into feeling like she's back in her body.

她每周洗几次冰浴，让自己感到震惊，感觉自己又回到了自己的身体里。

More than two years after the ethics hearing, nothing is preventing another Jane Doe from going through almost the exact same process she did.

道德听证会两年多后，没有什么可以阻止另一个无名氏经历与她几乎完全相同的过程。

This really gets to her.

这真的让她很感动。

The Idaho House and the Senate still have not adopted a sexual harassment or anti-fraternization policy into their rules.

爱达荷州众议院和参议院仍未将性骚扰或反联谊政策纳入其规则。

They also haven't adopted a specific process for how to investigate future reports of sexual misconduct.

他们也没有采取具体的程序来调查未来的不当性行为报告。

There are state legislatures that have adopted some best practices.

有些州立法机构已经采用了一些最佳实践。

Oregon offers confidential counseling for victims to help them decide what kind of action they want to take, and New York and Oregon use independent external investigators.

俄勒冈州为受害者提供保密咨询，帮助他们决定采取何种行动，纽约和俄勒冈州则聘请独立的外部调查员。

Neither state requires victims to retell and relive their assault in public.

这两个州都要求受害者在公共场合重述和重温他们的攻击行为。

The one improvement Dixon and other Ethics Committee members did make is stronger confidentiality protections for anyone who reports, so anyone who releases a victim's name could face consequences.

迪克森和其他道德委员会成员确实做出的一项改进是对任何举报者提供更严格的保密保护，因此任何泄露受害者姓名的人都可能面临后果。

But at the same time, the committee also decided they can cover the legal fees of lawmakers accused of sexual harassment or assault.

但与此同时，委员会还决定他们可以支付被指控性骚扰或性侵犯的议员的法律费用。

This is where we are more than five years after #MeToo: more awareness there's a problem, a more immediate sense that you should care and respond when someone reports, but nobody's invented new systems where what a victim actually wants and needs is at the center.

这就是 #MeToo 事件发生五年多后的情况：人们更多地认识到了问题的存在，当有人举报时，你应该关心并做出回应，但没有人发明新系统，以受害者真正想要和需要的东西为中心。

Part of me was excited.

我的一部分很兴奋。

Part of me, like, still admired the state house.

我的一部分仍然很欣赏州议会大厦。

Flat just scared -- like confusion, like scared.

平淡只是害怕——就像困惑，就像害怕。

I don't want to, I don't want to, I don't want to.

我不想，我不想，我不想。

Very scared.

非常害怕。

Like, I made sure I had running shoes on.

就像，我确保我穿了跑鞋。

I made sure I had, like, stretchy pants, you know.

我确保我有弹力裤，你知道的。

In case I need to run, like, just take precautions.

如果我需要跑步，比如，采取预防措施。

I had somebody, you know, on standby in case I needed to get picked up.

你知道，有人随时待命，以防我需要接我。

Now, more than two years out from the hearing, Jane's been back at the capitol more than a dozen times.

现在，距离听证会已经过去两年多了，简已经回到国会大厦十几次了。

She says sometimes she gets random stares from lobbyists or male representatives who won't look her in the eye, but she doesn't care.

她说，有时说客或男性代表会随意盯着她看，他们不会直视她的眼睛，但她不在乎。

In January, she went to the inaugural ball held in the rotunda of the capitol.

一月份，她参加了在国会大厦圆形大厅举行的就职舞会。

What was it like?

是什么样子的？

Jane Doe It was fun.

简·多伊 这很有趣。

I mean, I didn't wear heels.

我是说，我没穿高跟鞋。

I did still wear, like, flats just in case.

我仍然穿着平底鞋，以防万一。

Look, there's the speaker.

看，说话者来了。

Miki Meek The rotunda's all lit up.

Miki Meek 圆形大厅都亮了。

Yeah, and it was, like, just all fancy.

是的，就像，一切都很奇特。

Like, it was just so cool.

就像，这真是太酷了。

Then I danced.

然后我跳舞了。

I danced with some people.

我和一些人一起跳舞。

A representative encouraged her to take a picture back on the House floor.

一名代表鼓励她回到众议院拍张照片。

Literally I'm in the Speaker's spot in the House, holding the gavel.

从字面上看，我是众议院议长的位置，握着木槌。

Just, she's like, pose, pose for me.

只是，她就像，摆姿势，摆姿势给我。

I, like, saw you two years ago and you were just like, I can't go back there.

我两年前见过你，你当时就说，我不能再回到那里了。

And now you've got a gavel.

现在你有了一把木槌。

I know, right?

我知道，对吧？

And I wish that, like, I wish things turned out differently.

我希望，就像，我希望事情有不同的结果。

Jane's thought about how different things might be, the alternate life she'd have if the rape had never happened.

简想过，如果强奸从未发生过，事情会有多么不同，她会有怎样的生活。

She'd still be working at the capitol instead of her stepdad's plumbing company.

她仍然会在国会大厦工作，而不是在她继父的管道公司工作。

Maybe she'd be an attache, popping into committee meetings for things she wants to learn more about, like Health and Welfare or State Affairs.

也许她会成为一名随员，参加委员会会议，了解她想了解更多的事情，比如健康和福利或国家事务。

Instead, she's here -- somewhere between where she intended to be and the very dark place she's been in for the last couple of years.

相反，她在这里——介于她原本想去的地方和过去几年她所处的非常黑暗的地方之间。

She's just now returning to her original plans.

她现在才回到原来的计划。

I'm going to be a lawmaker.

我要成为一名立法者。

You know, I'll never be, I will never have shame walking into that building anymore.

你知道，我永远不会，我再也不会因为走进那栋大楼而感到羞耻了。

Going forward, hell no. Hell no. I'm a multi-generation Idahoan.

展望未来，地狱不。天哪，不。我是一个多代爱达荷人。

You know, my mother is here.

你知道，我妈妈就在这里。

My siblings are here.

我的兄弟姐妹在这里。

My son is here.

我儿子在这里。

I'm here.

我在这儿。

No way you're going to oust me from, I pay my taxes.

你不可能把我赶出去，我纳税。

Like, this is our building.

就像，这是我们的大楼。

Jane's mapping out her path back: PTA, city council, and then the state house.

简正在规划她的回归之路：PTA、市议会，然后是州议会。

Miki Meek is a producer on our show.

米基·米克 (Miki Meek) 是我们节目的制片人。

If you've experienced sexual assault and want to talk to somebody, you can reach out to the National Sexual Assault Hotline.

如果您经历过性侵犯并想与某人交谈，您可以拨打国家性侵犯热线。

1-800-656-HOPE.

1-800-656-希望。

If you're having thoughts of suicide, call the National Suicide Prevention Hotline.

如果您有自杀的念头，请拨打国家预防自杀热线。

You do that by dialing 988 on your phone.

您可以通过用手机拨打 988 来完成此操作。

That's it.

就是这样。

Just 988.

才988。

Fiona Apple recorded this for us.

Fiona Apple 为我们记录了这一点。

(SINGING) You've heard of the wonders our land does possess, its beautiful valleys and hills.

（唱歌）你们听说过我们的土地所拥有的奇观，美丽的山谷和山丘。

The majestic forests where nature abounds, we love every nook and rill.

雄伟的森林充满了大自然，我们热爱每一个角落和小溪。

And here we have Idaho, winning her way to fame.

在这里，爱达荷正在赢得她的名声。

Silver and gold in the sunlight blaze, and romance lies in her name.

银色和金色在阳光下闪耀，浪漫就在她的名字里。

Singing, we're singing of you, ah, proudly too, all our lives through we'll go singing, singing of you, singing of Idaho.

歌唱，我们在歌唱你，啊，也自豪，我们一生都会歌唱，歌唱你，歌唱爱达荷。

There's truly one state in this great land of ours where ideals can be realized.

在我们这片伟大的土地上，确实有一个国家可以实现理想。

The pioneers made it so for you and me, a legacy we'll always prize.

先驱们为你和我创造了这一点，这是我们将永远珍惜的遗产。

And here we have Idaho, winning her way to fame.

在这里，爱达荷正在赢得她的名声。

Silver and gold in the sunlight blaze, and romance lies in her name.

银色和金色在阳光下闪耀，浪漫就在她的名字里。

Singing, we're singing of you, ah, proudly too, all our lives through we'll go singing, singing of you, singing of Idaho.

歌唱，我们在歌唱你，啊，也自豪，我们一生都会歌唱，歌唱你，歌唱爱达荷。

OK, so I know that we could have ended the show right here with this song, and in fact, we did plan on ending it right here, but then last week, I did this one more interview that just got to those of us who were putting together the show, and it's an interview with somebody who Jane Doe has been thinking about.

好吧，所以我知道我们本可以用这首歌结束节目，事实上，我们确实计划在这里结束它，但上周，我又做了一次采访，采访了我们这些正在整理节目的人，这是对 Jane Doe 一直在考虑的某个人的采访。

A woman who, for a while, was known as Emily Doe.

一位曾一度被称为艾米丽·多伊（Emily Doe）的女性。

And so here is just one more thing before we go today.

在我们今天离开之前，还有一件事要讲。

This is Act Three.

这是第三幕。

Doe Meet Doe.

多伊遇见多伊。

OK, so while Miki was talking to Jane for this story, Jane was reading this book called Know My Name, and Know My Name was written by a survivor who had been anonymous for several years, and then came out with her name.

好吧，所以当Miki和Jane谈论这个故事的时候，Jane正在读这本书叫“知道我的名字”，而“知道我的名字”是由一位匿名多年的幸存者写的，然后才以她的名字出来。

This is somebody who we had, actually, one quick quote from in the top of the show -- Chanel Miller is her real name.

实际上，我们在节目顶部引用了她的一句话——香奈儿·米勒 (Chanel Miller) 是她的真名。

Stanford swimmer Brock Turner sexually assaulted her in 2015, and then she wrote this victim impact statement as Emily Doe, and this statement went online.

斯坦福大学游泳运动员布洛克·特纳 (Brock Turner) 于 2015 年对她进行了性侵犯，然后她以艾米丽·多伊 (Emily Doe) 的身份撰写了这份受害者影响声明，该声明发布到了网上。

Millions of people read it.

数百万人阅读了它。

Eighteen members of the House of Representatives -- Democrats and Republicans -- took turns reading it out loud in Congress.

十八名众议院议员——民主党人和共和党人——轮流在国会大声朗读这句话。

It was a thing.

这是一件事。

And Jane Doe is thinking these days about whether she wants to come out with her real name, and so I talked to Chanel Miller about how she decided to do that, and also what it was like for her to be anonymous as Emily Doe for so long before she did.

简·多伊（Jane Doe）这些天正在考虑她是否愿意公开自己的真名，所以我和香奈儿·米勒（Chanel Miller）谈论了她是如何决定这样做的，以及她在这样做之前这么长时间以艾米丽·多伊（Emily Doe）的身份匿名是什么感觉。

In those four years, less than 10 people in my life knew, and at the time, it was cool that I had the power of invisibility.

在那四年里，我生命中只有不到10个人知道，当时我拥有隐形能力真是太酷了。

But long term, what's not cool is when you can't turn the invisibility off, because if you're always invisible, then you just start to slowly dissolve, and just to be in the world and leave such a big part of me at home every day led to such a fragmented experience by the end.

但从长远来看，不酷的是当你无法关闭隐身功能时，因为如果你总是隐身，那么你就会开始慢慢溶解，而只是在这个世界上，每天把我的很大一部分留在家里，最终导致了如此支离破碎的经历。

Did Emily Doe seem like a person who is separate from you in some way?

艾米丽·多伊（Emily Doe）在某种程度上看起来是不是一个与你不同的人？

Well, she's sort of like a beacon and she's very bold.

嗯，她有点像一座灯塔，而且非常大胆。

Emily Doe is just this unshakable, clear headed person who didn't take anything from anybody.

艾米丽·多伊就是这样一位坚定不移、头脑清醒的人，她没有从任何人那里拿走任何东西。

And I don't know.

我不知道。

I am not confrontational.

我不具有对抗性。

You have to understand, like, in my book, I talk about how when I'm handed change at the grocery store, I just throw it in my bag because I don't want to hold anybody up.

你必须明白，就像在我的书中，我谈到当我在杂货店拿到零钱时，我只是把它扔进包里，因为我不想妨碍任何人。

I get so nervous.

我很紧张。

If I'm at a cafe and I have to ask the barista the Wi-Fi password -- rather not.

如果我在一家咖啡馆，我必须向咖啡师询问 Wi-Fi 密码——而不是问。

I'll figure out a way to work without internet for an hour.

我会想办法在没有网络的情况下工作一个小时。

And so in my day-to-day life, I'm someone who is very shrunken most of the time, and it takes a lot to be able to assert myself.

所以在我的日常生活中，我大部分时间都是一个非常萎缩的人，需要付出很多努力才能坚持自己的主张。

I think what's incredible about Emily Doe is that she can show up when she needs to.

我认为艾米丽·多伊的不可思议之处在于她可以在需要的时候出现。

Emily Doe takes a stand.

艾米丽·多伊表明立场。

Chanel Miller Yes.

香奈儿·米勒 是的。

And so you're reading about this Emily Doe, who seems so amazing.

所以你正在读到关于艾米丽·多伊（Emily Doe）的报道，她看起来非常了不起。

And it doesn't feel like you.

而且感觉不像你。

Emily Doe, I don't think, is allowed to make a lot of jokes.

我认为艾米丽·多伊不被允许开很多玩笑。

Like, she exists in a space that has that -- that can be sensitive, where you want to be really conscious of what you're saying.

就像，她存在于一个充满敏感的空间，你想要真正意识到自己所说的话。

You want to take care of people.

你想照顾人。

Even now, when people -- people will sometimes see me on the street and burst into tears, and I don't know what that is, but I just -- anytime somebody gives me a compliment, I imagine Emily Doe as this, like, statue, and they give me a flower, and I walk over and put the flower at her feet, and then I come back to myself.

即使是现在，当人们——人们有时会在街上看到我，然后放声大哭，我不知道那是什么，但我——每当有人赞美我时，我就会想象艾米丽·多伊像这样，就像雕像一样，他们给我一朵花，我走过去，把花放在她脚边，然后我回过神来。

So the next thing I want to do is something unusual.

所以接下来我想做的是一些不寻常的事情。

Jane Doe from our story has read your book.

我们故事中的无名氏读过你的书。

She read it with interest and she sent these next questions.

她饶有兴趣地阅读了该内容，并发送了接下来的问题。

OK.

好的。

Ira Glass That she would love to hear your answers to.

Ira Glass 她很想听听你的答案。

OK.

好的。

Ira Glass OK.

艾拉·格拉斯 好的。

First one.

第一个。

When did you know -- you can totally see where she's coming from in this question, too -- when did you know that you were emotionally and mentally ready to put your real name out there?

你什么时候知道——你也能完全明白她在这个问题上的出发点——你什么时候知道你在情感上和精神上已经准备好把你的真实姓名公布出来了？

What were the signs that you were seeing in your own life telling you that you were ready?

您在自己的生活中看到哪些迹象表明您已经准备好？

There were so many things I thought were impossible at the beginning that have now become ordinary, and I want her to know that for herself.

有很多一开始我认为不可能的事情现在都变得很平常，我想让她自己知道这一点。

So I couldn't even verbalize what had happened to me when I was alone in a therapist's office, and I wore a jacket.

所以当我独自一人在治疗师办公室里时，我什至无法用语言描述发生在我身上的事情，而且我穿着一件夹克。

This is at the beginning.

这是一开始的情况。

Chanel Miller This is at the very beginning.

香奈儿·米勒 (Chanel Miller) 这是最开始的事。

I had wore a jacket with sleeves that covered my hands, and now I can walk in in a regular afternoon, make a recording that will go out to millions of people, and afterward, I will move on to something else.

我穿着一件夹克，袖子盖住了我的手，现在我可以在一个普通的下午走进去，录制一张唱片，分发给数百万人，然后，我会转向其他事情。

Recording -- you're talking about this interview we're doing right now.

录音——你正在谈论我们现在正在进行的这次采访。

Correct, but this will not sink me, and by the end, I could get back on my feet so quickly, and so I thought, I don't have to be afraid anymore that something is going to blindside me.

是的，但这不会让我沉沦，到最后，我可以很快重新站起来，所以我想，我不必再担心有什么事情会让我措手不及。

And that's when you knew that you were emotionally and mentally ready to put your name out there?

就在那时你知道你在情感上和精神上都准备好把你的名字公布出来了吗？

Yes, I can do this.

是的，我可以做到这一点。

Ira Glass Jane Doe's next question for you is, what's the pros and cons list you made before you came out with your own name?

艾拉·格拉斯·简·多伊向您提出的下一个问题是，在您以自己的名字命名之前，您列出的利弊清单是什么？

OK.

好的。

Cons -- cons is that any time you are Googled, it is the first thing that comes up.

缺点——缺点是，任何时候你在谷歌上搜索，它都是第一个出现的东西。

It'll be the first thing everybody sees you as.

这将是每个人看到你的第一眼。

Pros -- pros, I get to be in rooms with people again.

优点——优点，我可以再次和人们一起呆在房间里。

What does that mean?

这意味着什么？

Chanel Miller Like, I don't have to be lonely anymore.

Chanel Miller 就像，我不必再孤独了。

I was so lonely.

我是如此孤独。

It's so lonely to be hiding this much.

隐藏这么多真是太孤独了。

Like it's so isolating.

就像它是如此孤立。

Other cons?

其他缺点？

Chanel Miller Feeling exposed.

香奈儿·米勒 (Chanel Miller) 感觉暴露无遗。

Like it felt like I was in this storm and I had a little tarp covering me, and at any moment, the wind was going to rip the tarp off, and I'm just clenching it down all of the time.

感觉就像我在这场暴风雨中，我身上盖着一块小防水布，风随时都会把防水布撕下来，而我一直紧紧地抓着它。

And so when it finally rips off, you're like, OK, now I can just give in to it.

所以当它最终失败时，你会想，好吧，现在我可以屈服于它了。

I can get soaked and see where we go from here.

我可以全身湿透，看看我们接下来该去哪里。

You know, it is hard -- like every time I'm introduced, there's a trigger warning, and I think that's, there'll probably be one at the top of this episode, and...

你知道，这很难——就像每次介绍我时，都会有一个触发警告，我想，这一集的顶部可能会有一个，而且......

Wait, you mean every time you're introduced, you mean on the radio or something like that?

等等，你的意思是每次你被介绍时，你的意思是在广播或类似的东西上？

Yeah, this may be really distressing and I'm sitting there like, what am I about to do to these people?

是的，这可能真的很令人痛苦，我坐在那里想，我要对这些人做什么呢？

[LAUGHTER] So I want to be introduced and not have to warn people that I'm about to start speaking, you know?

[笑声] 所以我想被介绍，而不是警告人们我即将开始讲话，你知道吗？

OK, this is our last question from Jane Doe.

好的，这是 Jane Doe 提出的最后一个问题。

OK.

好的。

Ira Glass Who is Emily Doe to you now?

艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 现在对您来说谁是艾米丽·多伊 (Emily Doe)？

Is she gone?

她走了吗？

She's there.

她就在那儿。

She'll definitely always be there.

她肯定会一直在那里。

Be there as a separate person from you?

作为一个与你不同的人存在吗？

Still?

仍然？

Yeah.

是的。

She's a statue.

她是一座雕像。

Ira Glass Oh, I thought you might say that, like, you have now, you've integrated her.

Ira Glass 哦，我想你可能会说，你现在已经整合了她。

She's now part of you.

她现在是你的一部分了。

Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

I think in the beginning interviews, I said that because it sounds very harmonious.

我想在开始的采访中，我这么说是因为听起来很和谐。

OK.

好的。

All right, noted.

好吧，注意到了。

That's a lie.

那是一个谎言。

Let's move on.

让我们继续吧。

She's still out there.

她还在外面。

Chanel Miller.

香奈儿·米勒.

Chanel Miller's book, again, is called Know My Name.

香奈儿·米勒的书又叫《知道我的名字》。

She's also a visual artist.

她也是一位视觉艺术家。

She did the show art for today's episode that you can see at our website.

她为今天的剧集制作了表演艺术，您可以在我们的网站上看到。

Well the program was produced today by Miki Meek and Valerie Kipnis and edited by Chana Joffe-Walt.

该节目今天由 Miki Meek 和 Valerie Kipnis 制作，由 Chana Joffe-Walt 编辑。

People who put together today's program include Chris Benderev, Phia Bennin, Zoe Chace, Sean Cole, Michael Comite, Aviva DeKornfeld, Alaa Mostafa, Stowe Nelson, Katherine Rae Mondo, Sarah Parrish, Nadia Reiman, Laura Starecheski, Lilly Sullivan, Frances Swanson, Christopher Swetala, Marisa Robertson-Textor, Matt Tierney, Julie Whitaker, and Diane Wu.

今天节目的制作人包括 Chris Benderev、Phia Bennin、Zoe Chace、Sean Cole、Michael Comite、Aviva DeKornfeld、Alaa Mostafa、Stowe Nelson、Katherine Rae Mondo、Sarah Parrish、Nadia Reiman、Laura Starecheski、Lilly Sullivan、Frances Swanson、Christopher Swetala、Marisa Robertson-Textor、Matt Tierney、Julie Whitaker、和黛安吴。

Our Managing Editor is Sarah Abdurrahman.

我们的总编辑是萨拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sarah Abdurrahman)。

Our Senior Editor is David Kestenbaum.

我们的高级编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。

Our Executive Editor is Emanuele Berry.

我们的执行编辑是埃马努埃莱·贝里。

Special thanks today to Annie Hightower, Erika Birch, Melissa Ing, Lindsay Meyer, Nora Cassidy, Kelly Boyle, Rachel Dissell, Michaela Myers, Maria Patrick from the National Women's Law Center, Rebecca Traister, Rick Rossein, Pilar Melendez, James Dawson, Robyn Semian, Andy Slater, and the DART Center for Journalism and Trauma.

今天特别感谢国家妇女法律中心的 Annie Hightower、Erika Birch、Melissa Ing、Lindsay Meyer、Nora Cassidy、Kelly Boyle、Rachel Dissell、Michaela Myers、Maria Patrick、Rebecca Traister、Rick Rossein、Pilar Melendez、James Dawson、Robyn Semian、Andy Slater 以及 DART 新闻与创伤中心。

The musicians who play with Fiona Apple -- Amy Wood, David Garza, Sabastian Steinberg, and John Would.

与 Fiona Apple 一起演奏的音乐家包括艾米·伍德 (Amy Wood)、大卫·加尔萨 (David Garza)、萨巴斯蒂安·斯坦伯格 (Sabastian Steinberg) 和约翰·威尔 (John Will)。

Our website, thisamericanlife.org.

我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。

This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.

《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。

Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.

一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。

He's been training at a boxing gym, doing some sparring.

他一直在拳击馆训练，进行一些拳击比赛。

I keep telling him, stick to your own weight class, but he won't listen.

我一直告诉他，坚持你自己的体重级别，但他不听。

So when I get a chance to just, like, go annihilate some little, like, nine year olds, I will.

所以当我有机会去消灭一些小孩子，比如九岁的孩子时，我会的。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Back next week with more stories of This American Life.

下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。

(SINGING) Singing, singing of you, singing of Idaho.

（歌唱）歌唱，歌唱你，歌唱爱达荷。

Singing, singing of you.

歌唱，歌唱你。

Singing of Idaho.

爱达荷州的歌声。

Singing, singing of you.

歌唱，歌唱你。

Singing of Idaho.

爱达荷州的歌声。

Singing, singing of you.

歌唱，歌唱你。

Singing of Idaho.

爱达荷州的歌声。

This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.

《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。