798: Leaving the Fold - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #798 | May 5, 2023 798: Leaving the Fold Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 798 集 | 2023 年 5 月 5 日 798：离开折叠注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass A quick warning, there are curse words that are unbeeped in today's episode of the show.
序言：序言 Ira Glass 快速警告，今天的节目中有些咒语未发出提示音。
If you prefer a beeped version, you can find that at our website, thisamericanlife.org.
如果您更喜欢蜂鸣声版本，您可以在我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org 上找到该版本。
People are complicated.
人很复杂。
That's my radical message for you today, America.
这就是我今天要向你们传达的激进信息，美国。
People contain their opposites.
人都有自己的对立面。
I personally, for example, can be a good listener, helpful to others, and also exactly the opposite, totally inattentive.
例如，我个人可以是一个好的倾听者，对他人有帮助，但也可以是完全相反的，完全不专心。
And I don't think I'm very unusual when it comes to all that.
就这一切而言，我并不认为我有什么不同寻常。
In fact, something I always find kind of annoying is when people say, I'm a good person.
事实上，当人们说我是个好人时，我总是觉得有点烦人。
Oh, yeah, sure, I did whatever.
哦，是的，当然，我做了任何事。
But, you know, I'm a good person.
但是，你知道，我是一个好人。
Blah, blah, blah, but he's a good person.
哈哈哈哈，不过他是个好人。
Really?
真的吗？
I think that says nothing real about you at all.
我认为这完全不能说明你的真实情况。
Because most of us are a mix of good and bad, right?
因为我们大多数人都是好与坏的混合体，对吗？
We have thoughtful days, and we have annoyed days.
我们有深思熟虑的日子，也有烦恼的日子。
To me, somebody who says, "I'm a good person," is somebody who is not taking a very serious look at everything they do, who they look out for and who they neglect, and all the things they could be doing for others if they really were so good.
对我来说，那些说“我是一个好人”的人，并没有非常认真地看待他们所做的每一件事，他们关心的人和他们忽视的人，以及如果他们真的那么好的话他们可以为别人做的所有事情。
To be clear, there are good people out there.
需要明确的是，那里有好人。
There are genuinely generous, good people.
有真正慷慨、善良的人。
I've met them.
我见过他们。
We've all met them.
我们都见过他们。
But in my experience, one thing they have in common is that they know better than to sum it up with the words, "I'm a good person." Because one of the things that makes them good people is that they know that they contain kindness and awfulness, light and dark, depending on the moment.
但根据我的经验，他们的一个共同点是，他们知道不能用“我是一个好人”这句话来概括。因为使他们成为好人的原因之一是他们知道自己包含善良和可怕，光明和黑暗，这取决于当时的情况。
Years ago, I had the unusual experience of having dinner with Tom Hanks.
几年前，我有过与汤姆·汉克斯共进晚餐的不寻常经历。
And one thing I loved about Tom Hanks is how annoyed he was at this reputation he has in the press of being such a nice guy.
我喜欢汤姆·汉克斯的一件事是，他对自己在媒体上被认为是个好人的名声感到非常恼火。
Journalists write entire articles about him, and that is the angle-- he's such a nice guy.
记者们写了整篇关于他的文章，这就是角度——他是一个很好的人。
If I had to sum up his attitude towards this, at least expressed in that one conversation, he said basically, I'm normal.
如果我必须总结他对此的态度，至少在那次谈话中表达出来，他基本上说，我很正常。
And so when I meet a stranger, when I'm in a work situation, I do what normal people do, and I try to act pleasant.
因此，当我遇到陌生人时，当我在工作中时，我会做正常人所做的事情，并努力表现得愉快。
And then there were other times in my life when, like anyone normal, I get irritated.
在我的生活中，也有其他时候，像任何正常人一样，我会感到恼火。
I get angry.
我生气了。
I'm not so nice.
我没那么好心。
People contain their opposites, which brings me to Jerry Springer, the king of trash TV.
人总是有对立面的，这让我想到了垃圾电视之王杰瑞·斯普林格。
When he died two weeks ago, it made me think of the story that we did about him years ago, about this whole other side of him than the one most of us think of.
当他两周前去世时，这让我想起了多年前我们为他所做的故事，关于他的另一面，而不是我们大多数人想象的那样。
And that's his political career.
这就是他的政治生涯。
This was early in his life.
这是他生命的早期。
He was deeply idealistic in a kind of John F.
他具有约翰·肯尼迪式的深深的理想主义色彩。
Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy kind of way.
肯尼迪，鲍比·肯尼迪之类的。
And I actually found this very moving.
事实上我发现这非常感人。
Springer had a hard time walking away from that part of himself.
施普林格很难摆脱自己的这一部分。
That part of him, as you'll hear when you hear the story, stayed very much alive inside the trash TV host as the years passed.
正如你在听这个故事时会听到的那样，随着时间的流逝，他的那部分在垃圾电视主持人体内仍然非常活跃。
So today on our show, what we're going to do is we're going to play you that story, which we first broadcast 20 years ago when Springer was still in the prime of his daytime TV career.
所以今天在我们的节目中，我们要做的就是给大家播放这个故事，这个故事是我们 20 年前首次播出的，当时施普林格仍处于他日间电视生涯的黄金时期。
This was part of an episode that we called back then "Leaving the Fold," all about people leaving some world that they had once inhabited, leaving some part of themselves behind, and how they missed it once they were gone.
这是我们当时称之为“离开折叠”的一集的一部分，讲述的是人们离开他们曾经居住过的世界，留下自己的一部分，以及他们离开后如何怀念它。
So we have that.
所以我们就有了。
We have some other stuff.
我们还有一些其他的东西。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, He Contains Multitudes.
第一幕，他包容大众。
So let's start today with our story about Jerry Springer, first broadcast in 2004.
今天，让我们从 2004 年首次播出的关于杰瑞·斯普林格 (Jerry Springer) 的故事开始。
One of our producers at the time, Alex Blumberg, grew up in the city where Springer was mayor, and he put the story together.
我们当时的制片人之一亚历克斯·布隆伯格 (Alex Blumberg) 在斯普林格担任市长的城市长大，他把这个故事放在一起。
Jerry Springer arrived in Cincinnati in 1969, fresh out of law school with a job at a downtown firm.
杰里·斯普林格 (Jerry Springer) 于 1969 年抵达辛辛那提，当时他刚从法学院毕业，在市中心的一家公司工作。
And in just six months, he announced he was running for Congress against the conservative incumbent.
仅仅六个月后，他就宣布将与保守派现任议员竞选国会议员。
He was 25.
那年他25岁。
He had no experience.
他没有经验。
Nobody had ever heard of him.
没有人听说过他。
But he was against the war in Vietnam, and he supported civil rights.
但他反对越南战争，支持公民权利。
And here's the thing you might not guess.
这是你可能猜不到的事情。
He was fantastic.
他太棒了。
Patricia Garry and Jene Galvin are both Cincinnati political veterans.
帕特里夏·加里（Patricia Garry）和珍·加尔文（Jene Galvin）都是辛辛那提的政治资深人士。
Here's how they remember him.
这就是他们如何记住他的。
He was absolutely the most gifted, natural politician I ever saw.
他绝对是我见过的最有天赋、最天生的政治家。
The grandmothers all loved him.
祖母们都很爱他。
The daughters all loved him.
女儿们都很爱他。
You know, the brothers and sisters-- everybody was a good friend of his.
你知道，兄弟姐妹们——每个人都是他的好朋友。
They were great.
他们很棒。
There was always that kind of a glamour around him, where he was clearly a golden boy.
他的身上总是散发着一种魅力，分明是个金童。
I put Springer at the level of Ronald Reagan, Bobby Kennedy, Bill Clinton.
我把施普林格视为罗纳德·里根、鲍比·肯尼迪、比尔·克林顿的水平。
He's that level.
他就是这个水平。
And it's not just local Cincinnati people who feel this way about Springer.
对施普林格有这种感觉的不仅仅是辛辛那提当地人。
Mike Ford met Springer back in the '70s, but has moved up in politics and is today a Democratic political strategist at the national level.
迈克·福特 (Mike Ford) 早在 70 年代就认识了施普林格，但后来在政治上晋升，如今是国家一级的民主党政治战略家。
I worked with Clinton, '90, '92.
我和克林顿一起工作过，90、92年。
'88, Dukakis.
'88，杜卡基斯。
'80, I worked for Kennedy.
80 年代，我为肯尼迪工作。
'76, I went through Birch Bayh, Mo Udall, and Jimmy Carter.
76 年，我经历了 Birch Bayh、Mo Udall 和 Jimmy Carter。
He's the best I've ever seen, bar none.
他是我见过的最好的人，没有之一。
[CHEERING] Jerry Springer Hey, welcome to the show.
[欢呼]杰里·斯普林格嘿，欢迎来到节目。
How you doing?
你好吗？
My guests today say they're coldhearted mistresses who are proud to be breaking up marriages.
今天我的客人说她们是冷酷无情的情妇，以破坏婚姻为荣。
Please meet Holly.
请认识一下霍莉。
She says she does more than just babysit her friend's three kids.
她说她所做的不仅仅是照顾朋友的三个孩子。
Holly, what is going on?
霍莉，发生什么事了？
It's kind of a long drop from wanting to save the world to hosting TV shows with titles like, "I Have Sex with My Twin" and "I Want to Be a Teen Stripper." The story of Jerry Springer is the story of an act of transformation so complete and so total that most people don't even know what happened.
从想要拯救世界到主持诸如“我和我的双胞胎发生性关系”和“我想成为一名青少年脱衣舞娘”之类的电视节目，这有点遥远。杰里·斯普林格的故事是一个如此彻底、如此彻底的转变的故事，以至于大多数人甚至不知道发生了什么。
It's really the story of two Jerry Springers-- one known only to a pocket of people in Southwest Ohio as the heir apparent to progressive politics in America, the other known the world over as the king of trash TV.
这实际上是两个杰里·斯普林格的故事——一个只有俄亥俄州西南部的一小部分人知道他是美国进步政治的明显继承人，另一个则被全世界称为垃圾电视之王。
Go ahead.
前进。
Tell her.
告诉她。
Holly Theresa, I've been screwing your husband.
霍莉·特蕾莎，我一直在欺骗你的丈夫。
And he loves having sex with this.
他喜欢与此发生性关系。
This is a comparison that comes up a lot when people talk about the other Jerry Springer.
当人们谈论另一个杰里·斯普林格时，这种比较经常出现。
And it's no coincidence.
这并非巧合。
The summer before Springer first ran for office in Cincinnati, he'd worked as a volunteer with Bobby Kennedy's presidential campaign.
施普林格首次在辛辛那提竞选公职之前的那个夏天，他曾作为志愿者参与鲍比·肯尼迪的总统竞选活动。
Here's Jene Galvin.
这是珍·加尔文。
When Jerry got to Cincinnati, he had a Boston/Harvard/Kennedy accent.
当杰瑞到达辛辛那提时，他有波士顿/哈佛/肯尼迪口音。
He doesn't have it anymore.
他已经没有了。
But when he got here, he had it.
但当他来到这里时，他就拥有了。
If you hear any old tape of him from that era, see any video clips, Jerry Springer came to town talking like Bobby Kennedy.
如果你听过他那个时代的任何旧磁带，看到任何视频剪辑，杰里·斯普林格来到城里就像鲍比·肯尼迪一样说话。
My campaign is based upon the proposition that the answers to the problems which currently plague our cities, our towns, and our homes are not to be found in the decisions in Washington.
我的竞选活动基于这样一个主张：目前困扰我们城市、城镇和家园的问题的答案不能在华盛顿的决定中找到。
They are instead to be found in the hearts, minds, and resources of our own people here at home.
相反，它们存在于我们国内人民的心灵、思想和资源中。
On old footage from this campaign, Springer looks even younger than 25.
从这次竞选活动的旧镜头来看，斯普林格看起来甚至还不到 25 岁。
He looks like a kid in one of his father's suits, pretending to be Bobby Kennedy.
他看起来就像一个穿着他父亲的一套西装的孩子，假装是鲍比·肯尼迪。
But crowds loved him.
但人们爱他。
He seemed like somebody reaching for something big, even when he's talking about business prosperity and the gross national product.
即使当他谈论商业繁荣和国民生产总值时，他看起来就像是一个追求伟大事业的人。
The GNP by itself is no mark of our national achievement, for it includes smokestacks that pollute, drugs that destroy, and ambulances which clear our highways of human wreckage.
国民生产总值本身并不是我们国家成就的标志，因为它包括造成污染的烟囱、造成破坏的毒品以及清除高速公路上的人员残骸的救护车。
It includes a mugger's knife, a rioter's bomb, and Oswald's rifle.
其中包括一把劫匪的刀、一枚暴徒的炸弹和奥斯瓦尔德的步枪。
But if the GNP tells us all this, there is much that it does not tell us.
但如果国民党告诉了我们这一切，那么还有很多事情它没有告诉我们。
It says nothing of the health of our families, the quality of their education, or the joy of their play.
它没有提到我们家庭的健康、他们的教育质量或他们玩耍的乐趣。
Springer was running in one of the whitest and most conservative parts of a very conservative city against a 10-year incumbent.
施普林格在一座非常保守的城市里最白人、最保守的地区之一竞选，对手是一位十年的现任议员。
And he lost that first race.
他输掉了第一场比赛。
It was the last time he would lose an election for the next decade.
这是他在接下来的十年里最后一次在选举中失败。
One year later, he ran for and was elected to the Cincinnati City Council.
一年后，他竞选并当选为辛辛那提市议会议员。
Tim Burke was his legislative aide on the council.
蒂姆·伯克是他在委员会的立法助理。
Jerry could go into a VFW hall and talk about why he was opposed to the war in Vietnam.
杰里可以走进 VFW 大厅，谈论他为什么反对越南战争。
And that was not a popular thing to do.
这并不是一件受欢迎的事情。
He wouldn't convince VFW folks, at least not the majority of them, that they should come out against the war in Vietnam.
他不会说服 VFW 的人，至少不会说服他们中的大多数人，他们应该站出来反对越南战争。
That wasn't in their nature.
那不是他们的本性。
But he'd walk out of that room, and they'd like him.
但他走出那个房间，他们就会喜欢他。
And this is the remarkable thing about Jerry Springer the politician.
这就是政治家杰里·斯普林格的非凡之处。
He has connectability that transcends specific viewpoints of people.
他具有超越人们特定观点的联系性。
He'd get votes from West-siders saying, I don't agree with anything you say, but I just like your style.
他会从西区人那里得到选票，说：我不同意你所说的任何话，但我只是喜欢你的风格。
I like your guts.
我喜欢你的胆量。
The result of this was that on City Council, Springer had an uncanny ability to bring a marginal message without actually marginalizing himself.
其结果是，在市议会，施普林格拥有一种不可思议的能力，可以在不真正边缘化自己的情况下带来边缘信息。
Again, here's Tim Burke, Springer's legislative aide.
再次请来蒂姆·伯克，施普林格的立法助理。
In 1971, when Jerry was elected to City Council, there was a proposal to build Riverfront Arena.
1971年，当杰里当选为市议会议员时，有人提议建造河滨竞技场。
And the proposal was to do it with public dollars.
该提议是用公共资金来做这件事。
And the original vote on council as to how that was going to go was an 8 to 1 vote.
理事会最初以 8 比 1 的投票结果决定如何进行。
Jerry was the only one who opposed it.
杰瑞是唯一反对的人。
Opposed doing it?
反对这样做？
Tim Burke Opposed doing it with public dollars.
蒂姆·伯克反对用公共资金来做这件事。
The day of a critical vote, two members of council were away.
关键投票当天，两名理事会成员缺席。
And it needed seven votes in order to meet certain procedural requirements.
为了满足某些程序要求，它需要七票。
Jerry refused to give them the procedural vote, which had been the tradition.
杰里拒绝给予他们程序性投票，这一直是传统。
You don't hold something up on a procedural vote.
你不会在程序性投票中拖延任何事情。
You're free to vote against it on the merits, but you don't hold it-- well, Jerry bucked tradition and then started just talking about why this was a bad thing to do, and we ought not to be publicly financing these things that ought to be supported by private business.
你可以自由地根据案情投反对票，但你不能坚持——好吧，杰里打破了传统，然后开始谈论为什么这是一件坏事，我们不应该公开资助这些应该由私营企业支持的事情。
And in the end, he captured the attention of the citizens of Cincinnati.
最终，他引起了辛辛那提市民的注意。
They rallied to his side.
他们聚集到他一边。
The other politicians on council got that message.
议会中的其他政治家也明白了这一点。
And Riverfront Coliseum was built with private dollars, with very little public subsidy involved.
河滨体育馆是用私人资金建造的，几乎没有涉及公共补贴。
And you don't see that happening in stadiums and arenas today.
如今，您在体育场和竞技场中看不到这种情况发生。
Oh, he really got you going, I'll tell you.
哦，我告诉你，他真的让你前进。
Guy Guckenberger is a Republican and was one of Springer's council opponents on Riverfront Coliseum funding.
盖伊·古肯伯格 (Guy Guckenberger) 是共和党人，也是施普林格市议会反对河滨体育馆资助的人之一。
He says it wasn't any fun being on the other side of an issue from Springer.
他说，在斯普林格的问题上站在另一边没有任何乐趣。
I mean, he'd, you know, make a public appeal and state a public position for an issue.
我的意思是，你知道，他会公开呼吁并针对某个问题表明公开立场。
And you were either-- you either went with him or you were the bad guy.
而你要么——你要么跟他走，要么你就是坏人。
I mean, you didn't have any choice then.
我的意思是，那时你没有任何选择。
In 1974, Springer got elected to a second term with more votes than anyone else on City Council.
1974年，施普林格以比市议会中任何人都多的票数当选连任。
Six months later, he resigned in a scandal.
六个月后，他因丑闻辞职。
An FBI investigation into an illegal massage parlor across the river in Kentucky revealed that he'd been a repeat customer.
联邦调查局对肯塔基州河对岸一家非法按摩院的调查显示，他是一名回头客。
How did they know?
他们怎么知道的？
He'd paid for a prostitute with a check.
他用支票付钱请妓。
Tim Burke was his legislative aide at the time.
蒂姆·伯克当时是他的立法助理。
We went something like 10 days in a row with the headline story in the Cincinnati Enquirer.
我们连续 10 天登上了《辛辛那提问询报》的头条新闻。
Jerry was going through all kinds of personal hell.
杰瑞正在经历各种个人地狱。
So was his wife, obviously.
显然，他的妻子也是如此。
So was his family, as he had to call them and explain to them what he had done, and what it was doing.
他的家人也是如此，因为他必须打电话给他们并向他们解释他做了什么以及正在做什么。
And this was a young man with an absolutely terrific career ahead of him.
这是一个年轻人，他的职业生涯绝对辉煌。
And it looked like it had all been destroyed.
而且看起来好像全部都被毁掉了。
And you personally, what were your thoughts?
你个人有什么想法？
Part of it was, what the hell were you doing?
一部分是，你到底在做什么？
Why would you throw away this terrific political career you had in front of you for a few minutes?
你为什么要暂时放弃眼前这个了不起的政治生涯呢？
At the time, it seemed that people weren't angry at the act as much as they were at the sheer stupidity of paying for it by check.
当时，人们似乎并没有对这种行为感到愤怒，而是对用支票支付的愚蠢行为感到愤怒。
But Springer was clearly shaken.
但施普林格显然感到震惊。
The minute the facts became public, he resigned from council, so quickly, in fact, that his colleagues seemed a little shocked.
事实一曝光，他就辞去市议会职务，事实上，他的同事们似乎都感到有些震惊。
I think Jerry would tell the story that his initial thoughts were, I'm going to resign.
我想杰里会讲这个故事，他最初的想法是，我要辞职。
I'm disgraced.
我很丢脸。
I'm leaving town.
我要离开小镇了
I'm going to go start a new life someplace else.
我要去别的地方开始新的生活。
Within about 24 hours, he and his wife Micki and his other friends decided that wasn't the way to do it.
大约 24 小时内，他和妻子 Micki 以及其他朋友认为这不是正确的做法。
And he held another press conference.
他又召开了一次新闻发布会。
And he just said, here's what happened.
他只是说，这就是发生的事情。
Here's what I did.
这就是我所做的。
I'm ashamed of it.
我对此感到羞耻。
I apologize.
我道歉。
And just came absolutely-- and bared his soul to the Cincinnati public.
他绝对来了——并向辛辛那提公众袒露了自己的灵魂。
And they rallied to him again.
他们再次聚集到他身边。
It was amazing.
太棒了。
Some of the nuns out of the College of Mount St. Joseph started a thing where they were sending stones and little pebbles to members of Cincinnati City Council, trying to encourage them to reject Springer's resignation with the message, "He who is without sin should cast the first stone." It was just-- it was tremendous the way that people responded to him.
圣约瑟夫山学院的一些修女发起了一项活动，她们向辛辛那提市议会成员寄送石头和小卵石，试图鼓励他们拒绝施普林格的辞职，并传达这样的信息：“无罪的人应该投下第一块石头。”人们对他的反应真是太棒了。
And that was really what started his comeback.
这才是他复出的真正开始。
After a few months, Springer took tentative steps to get back into public life and manages another run for city council.
几个月后，斯普林格采取了试探性措施，重返公共生活，并再次竞选市议会议员。
The Democratic Party wouldn't endorse him, but they did leave a spot open for him on the ballot.
民主党不会支持他，但他们确实在选票上为他留出了一个席位。
Jene Galvin went with him to campaign.
珍妮·加尔文和他一起去竞选。
The St. Patrick's Day parade in Cincinnati at the time was huge, huge.
当时辛辛那提的圣帕特里克节游行非常盛大。
Ran through the downtown streets.
跑过市中心的街道。
Thousands of people would come.
成千上万的人会来。
You'd hope for great weather.
你会希望有好天气。
And on this day, we had great weather, a tremendous crowd.
这一天，天气很好，人潮汹涌。
And as Jerry would come down through the crowd, they jeered him.
当杰瑞从人群中走下来时，他们嘲笑他。
They mocked him.
他们嘲笑他。
And some of it didn't mean they wouldn't vote for him, but they mocked him.
其中一些并不意味着他们不会投票给他，但他们嘲笑他。
Hey, Jerry, you got a check on you?
嘿，杰瑞，你有支票吗？
Hey, Jerry, you're really stupid, aren't you?
嘿，杰瑞，你真的很蠢，不是吗？
Why did you write a check?
你为什么写支票？
Just yelling all this stuff.
只是大喊大叫这些东西。
And he would just sit there and smile, and laugh, and take it.
他只是坐在那里微笑，大笑，接受它。
And, boy, my heart was breaking for my buddy up on that back seat because I'm down driving this car.
而且，天哪，我为坐在后座上的朋友感到心碎，因为我正在驾驶这辆车。
He just took a beating.
他刚刚挨了打。
Still, the campaign worked.
尽管如此，这项活动还是奏效了。
18 months after resigning from City Council in disgrace and admitting publicly that he'd paid for a prostitute with a check, Jerry Springer was elected by the citizens of Cincinnati to a third term on City Council.
杰里·斯普林格（Jerry Springer）耻辱地从市议会辞职并公开承认自己用支票嫖妓，18 个月后，辛辛那提市民选举他第三次担任市议会议员。
Two years later, back on the Democratic ticket again, he was elected mayor, this time with the largest vote total in the city's history.
两年后，他再次回到民主党候选人名单中，当选市长，这一次他获得了该市历史上最多的选票总数。
It's not going too far to say that less than four years after being caught writing a check to a prostitute, Jerry Springer had become the most popular politician in Cincinnati ever, partly because he was able to mock his own stupidity.
可以说，在向妓女写支票被抓不到四年后，杰里·斯普林格就成为辛辛那提有史以来最受欢迎的政治家，部分原因是他能够嘲笑自己的愚蠢。
A rock and roll radio station convinced him to record a spoof commercial, a takeoff on a popular credit card ad at the time.
一家摇滚广播电台说服他录制一段恶搞广告，模仿当时流行的信用卡广告。
Hi.
你好。
Do you know me?
你知道我吗？
My face is seen all over Cincinnati constantly.
我的脸经常出现在辛辛那提的各个角落。
But when I travel, say, across state lines, people don't know the difference between Jerry Springer and Jerry Ford.
但当我跨州旅行时，人们不知道杰里·斯普林格和杰里·福特之间的区别。
So that's why I carry this, the American Expense Card.
这就是我携带这张美国消费卡的原因。
It's the card that's good at thousands of clubs and motels across the river.
这张卡适用于河对岸的数千家俱乐部和汽车旅馆。
I can even get instant, hassle-free check approval for quick, enjoyable entertainment that can't be beat, just like me.
我什至可以获得即时、无麻烦的支票批准，享受无与伦比的快速、愉快的娱乐，就像我一样。
Most people, if they know the story at all, they know it wrong.
大多数人，即使他们知道这个故事，他们也知道是错误的。
They think Jerry Springer was mayor, there was a prostitution scandal, he resigned, and then had nothing else to do but become the Jerry Springer of The Jerry Springer Show.
他们认为杰里·斯普林格是市长，发生了卖淫丑闻，他辞职了，然后无事可做，只能成为杰里·斯普林格秀中的杰里·斯普林格。
The truth is much stranger and more complicated.
事实却更加奇怪和复杂。
Jerry Springer became mayor after the prostitute.
杰里·斯普林格在妓女之后成为市长。
And The Jerry Springer Show was a full decade and a half after that, during which time Springer left politics more or less on his own terms and then rose again to the top of an entirely different field, television journalism.
《杰里·斯普林格秀》已经过去了整整十五年，在此期间，斯普林格或多或少地按照自己的方式离开了政治，然后再次登上了一个完全不同的领域——电视新闻业的顶峰。
The president of the local Teamsters Union in Cincinnati in Northern Kentucky is warning trucking companies to send trucks out in convoys after midnight on Monday.
肯塔基州北部辛辛那提当地卡车司机工会主席警告卡车运输公司在周一午夜后将卡车组队出发。
This is Jerry Springer as he was known to Cincinnati throughout the '80s, local news anchor.
这是杰瑞·斯普林格（Jerry Springer），整个 80 年代辛辛那提都知道他是当地新闻主播。
Here's how he got there.
他是这样到达那里的。
In 1980, he stepped down as mayor to run for governor and lost in a tough three-way race.
1980年，他辞去市长职务，竞选州长，但在一场艰苦的三人竞选中落败。
When it was over, he was out of money and jobless.
一切结束后，他身无分文，也失业了。
So he accepted an offer to anchor the local news at Channel 5, the lowest-ranked local news program.
因此，他接受了在排名最低的当地新闻节目第五频道担任当地新闻主播的邀请。
In a fairly bold programming move, the station also let him end the broadcast with his own nightly commentaries, which were often of a liberal bent-- pro-union, anti-Reagan and Bush.
在一个相当大胆的节目制作举措中，电视台还让他以自己的夜间评论来结束广播，这些评论往往带有自由主义倾向——支持工会、反对里根和布什。
He ended the broadcast each night with his signature phrase, "Take care of yourself and each other."
他每天晚上都会用他的标志性短语“照顾好自己和彼此”来结束广播。
Springer spent 10 years at Channel 5, during which he brought the nightly news from last to first in the ratings and earned 10 Emmy Awards.
斯普林格在第五频道工作了 10 年，期间他将晚间新闻的收视率从最后一位提升到了第一位，并获得了 10 项艾美奖。
He attracted notice, including offers to host his own show.
他引起了人们的注意，包括主办自己的节目的邀请。
In September of 1991, the first Jerry Springer Show was taped.
1991 年 9 月，第一届 Jerry Springer Show 录制完成。
Soon afterwards, Jerry Springer left Cincinnati for good.
不久之后，杰瑞·斯普林格永远离开了辛辛那提。
His final commentary on the local news is legendary.
他对当地新闻的最后评论具有传奇色彩。
OK, bear with me.
好吧，请耐心听我说。
This will be a little tough.
这会有点困难。
You should know, this isn't the first time I thought about leaving.
你应该知道，这不是我第一次考虑离开。
I thought about it some 20 years ago when a check that would soon become part of Cincinnati folklore made me see life from the bottom.
大约 20 年前，当一张很快成为辛辛那提民间传说一部分的支票让我看到了底层生活时，我就想到了这个问题。
To be honest, a thought about ending it all crossed my mind.
说实话，我的脑海里闪过一个想要结束这一切的念头。
But a more reasonable alternative seemed to be, hey, how about just leaving town and running away, starting life over someplace else?
但更合理的选择似乎是，嘿，离开城镇逃跑，在其他地方开始生活怎么样？
You see, in political terms as well as human, here in Cincinnati I was dead.
你看，从政治角度和人性角度来看，我在辛辛那提死了。
But then in probably the luckiest decision I ever made, I decided, no, I'm staying put.
但后来我决定，不，我要留在原地，这可能是我做过的最幸运的决定。
I would withstand all the jokes, all the ridicule.
我会承受所有的笑话，所有的嘲笑。
I'd pretend it didn't hurt.
我会假装不痛。
And I would give every ounce of my being to Cincinnati.
我会把我的每一分都奉献给辛辛那提。
Why, in time, I was thinking, you'd have to like me, or if not like me at least respect me.
为什么，我当时想，你必须喜欢我，或者即使不喜欢我，至少也要尊重我。
And I'd run for council, even unendorsed.
我会竞选议员，即使没有得到认可。
And I'd prove to you I could be the best public servant you ever had, or I'd die trying.
我会向你们证明我可以成为你们曾经拥有过的最好的公务员，否则我会为此而死。
Be it as a mayor, an anchor, or a commentator, whatever it took, I was determined to have you know that I was more than a check and a hooker on a one-night stand.
无论是作为市长、主播还是评论员，无论付出什么代价，我都决心让你们知道，我不仅仅是一张支票和一个一夜情的妓女。
But something happened along the way.
但一路上发生了一些事情。
Maybe it's God's way of teaching us.
也许这就是上帝教导我们的方式。
I don't know.
我不知道。
But you see, in trying to prove something to you, I learned something about me.
但你看，在试图向你证明一些事情的过程中，我了解了一些关于我自己的事情。
I learned that I had fallen in love with you, with Cincinnati, with you who taught me more about life, and caring, and forgiving, and also, most importantly, giving, giving something back, which is part of the reason I have been-- excuse me-- so sad this week, why it's so hard to say goodbye.
我发现我已经爱上了你，爱上了辛辛那提，爱上了你，你教会了我更多关于生活、关爱、宽容的知识，而且，最重要的是，给予、回馈，这就是我——对不起——这周如此悲伤的部分原因，为什么很难说再见。
God bless you.
上帝保佑你。
And goodbye.
再见。
Amy, you have a friend, Rusty.
艾米，你有一个朋友，拉斯蒂。
Let's now welcome him to the show.
现在让我们欢迎他来到节目。
Here is Rusty.
这是拉斯蒂。
Alex Blumberg It wasn't immediate, the switch from the nightly news to this.
亚历克斯·布隆伯格（Alex Blumberg）：从晚间新闻到此的转变并不是立即发生的。
Originally, The Springer Show was meant to be the successor to Phil Donahue.
最初，施普林格秀是菲尔·多纳休的继任者。
And indeed, the first year's topics included homelessness and gun control.
事实上，第一年的主题包括无家可归和枪支管制。
Springer booked political guests like Oliver North and Jesse Jackson.
斯普林格预订了奥利弗·诺斯和杰西·杰克逊等政治嘉宾。
And the show seemed innocent and upstanding.
而且这部剧看起来天真无邪、正直。
One early show bares the quaint title "Single People-- On the Outside Looking In." But the ratings tanked.
一个早期的节目有一个古怪的标题“单身人士——从外面看”。但收视率却大幅下滑。
A new producer was hired.
聘请了一位新制片人。
And, well, you know the rest.
而且，好吧，其余的你都知道。
For those from Cincinnati, those who know the other Jerry Springer, watching the show can be bewildering.
对于那些来自辛辛那提的人来说，那些认识另一个杰里·斯普林格的人来说，观看这部剧可能会感到困惑。
Again, here's Patricia Garry, who used to work with Jerry back in his City Council days.
帕特里夏·加里（Patricia Garry）再次在市议会任职期间曾与杰里一起工作。
Well, first off, that doesn't look like Jerry.
嗯，首先，那看起来不像杰瑞。
What is it about him, do you think, when you see-- what do you see when you're looking at him on the television?
你认为，当你在电视上看到他时，你会看到什么？
I don't know.
我不知道。
I mean, is he even in there?
我的意思是，他还在里面吗？
Where is Jerry?
杰瑞在哪里？
But he's still got that outward-- he can be happy with the microphones and smiling, and all that.
但他仍然很外向——他可以对麦克风和微笑以及所有这些感到高兴。
And then he does that little pseudo-commentary at the end.
然后他在最后做了一些伪评论。
Where's that positive energy?
哪里来的正能量？
Where's that belief that he can make a difference?
他能够改变现状的信念在哪里？
Where is that wanting to make a difference that's driving that?
推动改变的愿望在哪里？
He was always shooting upward.
他总是向上射击。
I don't think that person-- I don't know if that person is around.
我不认为那个人——我不知道那个人是否在附近。
That's the thing that seems to me is that somebody with this gift clearly--
在我看来，拥有这种天赋的人显然——
It's a Greek tragedy, isn't it?
这是希腊悲剧，不是吗？
It's really a Greek tragedy, yeah.
这确实是希腊悲剧，是的。
Couldn't have written a better one, to end up being-- to end up being the joker instead of being the king.
不可能写出更好的了，最终成为小丑而不是国王。
Yeah.
是的。
Jerry Springer I'm not conflicted because I'm not-- I know there's me, and then there's the show.
Jerry Springer 我并不矛盾，因为我不——我知道有我，然后就有演出。
Jerry Springer might be the only person intimately familiar with Jerry Springer, who claims to feel no ambivalence about the place Jerry Springer has ended up.
杰里·斯普林格可能是唯一一个与杰里·斯普林格非常熟悉的人，他声称对杰里·斯普林格的结局并不感到矛盾。
I talked to him in his office before he taped his show.
在他录制节目之前，我在他的办公室与他交谈过。
It's hard not to like him.
很难不喜欢他。
He's engaging, funny.
他很有魅力，很有趣。
But there's a certain practiced quality to the way he answers questions about his career choices.
但他回答有关职业选择问题的方式有一定的熟练程度。
You know, I create this persona for the show.
你知道，我为这部剧创造了这个角色。
And that's what it is.
就是这样。
You know, I'm an act.
你知道，我是一个表演者。
It's like I'm in movies.
我就像在电影里一样。
Look, no one goes after some actor because, let's say, he played Hitler in the movies.
听着，没有人会因为某个演员在电影中扮演希特勒而追捧他。
I mean, I'm not saying anybody should have a-- yeah, have an issue with it at all.
我的意思是，我并不是说任何人都应该对此有任何问题。
Here's a person who every stage of their professional career, it's been imbued with a sense of trying to make a difference until you get to The Springer Show.
这个人在职业生涯的每个阶段都充满了努力做出改变的感觉，直到你参加施普林格秀。
Well, we've certainly made a difference in television.
嗯，我们确实在电视领域做出了改变。
I'm not sure people are happy about it.
我不确定人们是否对此感到高兴。
I try not to think about it too much.
我尽量不去想太多。
Life is what it is.
生活就是这样。
And you take what's handed, and you work as hard as you can, and hopefully you'll be successful.
你接受别人的安排，尽你所能地努力工作，希望你会成功。
But I just don't spend too much time worrying about that.
但我只是不会花太多时间担心这个。
I mean, I do my show.
我的意思是，我做我的表演。
And, look, I've always said it's a stupid show.
而且，听着，我一直说这是一场愚蠢的表演。
I've had a wonderful life because of it and all that, but I've never for a second thought that it's important.
我因此而过着美好的生活，但我从来没有想过这很重要。
It's trivial.
这是微不足道的。
It's chewing gum.
这是口香糖。
And I recognize that once you do something that's significant in life, all this other stuff is just a way to eat.
我认识到，一旦你做了一些对生活有意义的事情，所有其他的事情都只是一种吃饭的方式。
From talking to Springer and his friends, I think the best answer to the question, how did this idealistic, political guy end up in a job where he helps no one, is partly he stumbled into it and was surprised as anyone about how big it got.
通过与斯普林格和他的朋友们的交谈，我认为这个问题的最佳答案是，这个理想主义的政治人物是如何最终找到一份对任何人都没有帮助的工作的，部分原因是他偶然发现了这个问题，并且像任何人一样对它的规模有多大感到惊讶。
Once the show started what they euphemistically referred to as "targeting the youth market," its success was both instantaneous and breathtaking.
该剧一经推出（他们委婉地称为“瞄准青年市场”），立刻就获得了惊人的成功。
Within the span of a couple of years, Springer went from being just another talk show host to a worldwide phenomenon.
在几年的时间里，斯普林格从一个普通的脱口秀主持人变成了一个世界性的现象。
The Springer Show can be seen on televisions in over 40 countries worldwide, including Tunisia.
斯普林格秀可以在全球 40 多个国家的电视上观看，其中包括突尼斯。
And when the show is named after you, you get a lot of the money.
当节目以你的名字命名时，你会得到很多钱。
And the money really meant something to him.
这笔钱对他来说确实很重要。
He'd come to this country when he was five, the child of Jewish refugees who escaped to America from Nazi Germany.
他五岁时来到这个国家，是从纳粹德国逃到美国的犹太难民的孩子。
But there is some evidence that Springer is more ambivalent about his current job than he's willing to let on to a reporter.
但有一些证据表明，施普林格对自己目前的工作比他愿意向记者透露的更加矛盾。
About four or five years ago, he started making phone calls to his old friend Mike Ford, who ran several of Springer's political campaigns, just to chat about politics.
大约四五年前，他开始给他的老朋友迈克·福特(Mike Ford)打电话，只是为了聊聊政治。迈克·福特负责施普林格的几次政治竞选活动。
The more notoriety the show attracted, the more popular it became, the more frequently, it seemed to Mike, Jerry would phone him.
这部剧的名气越大，它就越受欢迎，在迈克看来，杰瑞给他打电话的次数也就越频繁。
We talked, I would say, maybe once a month.
我想说，我们可能每月谈一次。
And it was always almost getting back in.
而且它总是几乎要回来了。
He would call me.
他会给我打电话。
And he would say, so what are we going to do?
他会说，那我们该怎么办？
And I would say, well, I'm doing it.
我会说，好吧，我正在这样做。
I don't know what you're going to do, but it's not happening on the show.
我不知道你要做什么，但这不会在节目中发生。
And then we'd talk about options.
然后我们会讨论选择。
And we looked at everything.
我们审视了一切。
I went down to Mississippi to look at running against Trent Lott.
我前往密西西比州观看与特伦特·洛特的比赛。
We looked in New Orleans.
我们在新奥尔良看了看。
We looked everywhere, but especially in Ohio.
我们到处寻找，特别是在俄亥俄州。
And he was feeling it out for years.
多年来他一直在感受这一点。
I mean, he was empty, OK?
我的意思是，他很空，好吗？
That's the issue here.
这就是问题所在。
The show does not make him happy.
这个节目并不让他高兴。
It didn't fill his needs as a person.
这并不能满足他作为一个人的需求。
If you follow the news very closely, you may recall stories in early 2003 that Jerry Springer was considering a run for Senate in Ohio.
如果您密切关注新闻，您可能还记得 2003 年初杰里·斯普林格 (Jerry Springer) 正在考虑竞选俄亥俄州参议员的报道。
Much of the national news reported this as a joke, a talk show fool trying to dress up as a statesman.
许多全国性新闻都将此视为一个笑话，一个脱口秀傻瓜试图打扮成政治家。
But the small band of Jerry's friends from before knew the story was actually the opposite-- a former statesman was trying to shake off the costume of a talk show fool.
但杰瑞以前的一小群朋友知道这个故事实际上是相反的——一位前政治家试图摆脱脱口秀傻瓜的服装。
What this meant for Jerry was going around the state and speaking in front of as many Democrats as he possibly could.
这对杰里来说意味着他要走遍全州，在尽可能多的民主党人面前发表讲话。
Jene Galvin went with him.
珍妮·加尔文和他一起去了。
People say, would you come down to Hawking College and speak?
人们说，你愿意来霍金学院演讲吗？
Yes.
是的。
Will you come to the Mercer County Democratic Party dinner and speak?
您会参加默瑟县民主党晚宴并发言吗？
Yes.
是的。
Will you come down to Athens County and help a young Ohio University woman running for city council win an election?
您愿意前往雅典县帮助一位年轻的俄亥俄大学女性竞选市议会赢得选举吗？
Yes.
是的。
He goes.
他走了。
I introduced him to the State Democratic County Chairs Association back in January.
一月份我把他介绍给州民主县主席协会。
Again, Tim Burke.
又是蒂姆·伯克。
Tim Burke And as I introduced him, you could just see that there was a great deal of skepticism in that room.
蒂姆·伯克：当我介绍他时，你可以看到房间里有很多怀疑论。
Because for the most part, the county chairs from around the state of Ohio only knew Jerry for this crazy television show he has.
因为在大多数情况下，俄亥俄州各地的县主席只因为杰里的这个疯狂电视节目而认识他。
Many of you know him only as a host of some goofy television show.
你们中的许多人只知道他是一些愚蠢的电视节目的主持人。
I know him as somebody who cares deeply about people, about politics.
我知道他是一个非常关心人民和政治的人。
I'm proud to introduce you to my longtime friend, Jerry Springer.
我很自豪地向您介绍我的老朋友杰里·斯普林格。
[APPLAUSE] Jerry Springer Thank you very much.
[掌声] 杰瑞·斯普林格 非常感谢你。
May you never be on my show.
愿你永远不会出现在我的节目中。
[LAUGHTER] Tim Burke You could literally watch the audience change from skepticism to an audience that was laughing with Jerry.
[笑声] 蒂姆·伯克 你真的可以看到观众从怀疑变成和杰瑞一起大笑的观众。
The tax cuts proposed by the president are obscene.
总统提议的减税措施是令人厌恶的。
What the hell is he giving someone like me a tax break for?
他给我这样的人提供税收减免到底是为了什么？
The argument for the tax package-- and you've heard it on the-- you hear it all the time.
关于税收方案的争论——你已经听到过——你一直都听到。
The argument for the tax package is to give people back their money so they'll spend it and will help the economy.
税收计划的论点是把钱还给人们，这样他们就会花掉这些钱，从而有助于经济发展。
Here's what's stupid.
这就是愚蠢的事情。
Rich people can already afford anything they want to buy.
有钱人已经买得起他们想买的任何东西。
Do you think if I get a check back in the mail, suddenly I'm going to buy something?
你认为如果我收到邮寄的支票，我会突然去买东西吗？
If I want to buy something now, I'll go out and buy it.
如果我现在想买东西，我就会出去买。
Don't give me the money.
别给我钱。
Take that money, and make sure that every citizen in the United States of America has health insurance.
拿着这笔钱，确保美利坚合众国的每个公民都有健康保险。
That's where you spend the money.
这就是你花钱的地方。
If we would get that message across so the citizens of Ohio-- I don't care how Republican your district looks-- they will say, aha, that relates to me.
如果我们能传达这一信息，那么俄亥俄州的公民——我不在乎你所在的选区看起来如何是共和党——他们会说，啊哈，这与我有关。
Now there's a reason to sign up and vote Democrat.
现在有理由注册并投票给民主党了。
We got to give them a reason.
我们得给他们一个理由。
That's what we stand for.
这就是我们的立场。
We are right on the issues.
我们在这些问题上是正确的。
It drives me insane when I watch the news and I see this garbage.
当我看新闻时看到这些垃圾，这让我发疯。
Look, I'm the king of garbage, so I know garbage.
看，我是垃圾之王，所以我知道垃圾。
And at the end of the speech, he had them all up on their feet.
演讲结束时，他让大家都站起来。
These are a bunch of hard-bitten politicians who have heard lots of political speeches in their lives, and he had them on their feet at the end of the speech.
这些是一群顽强的政治家，他们一生听过很多政治演讲，而他在演讲结束时让他们站了起来。
He turned the room just like that.
他就这样转动了房间。
[APPLAUSE] Alex Blumberg You don't have to be a political strategist, however, to design the attack ad against the Jerry Springer Senate campaign.
[掌声] 亚历克斯·布隆伯格 然而，你不必是一名政治战略家，也能设计针对杰里·斯普林格参议院竞选活动的攻击广告。
He airs one himself, twice a day in most markets, for an hour each time.
他自己在大多数市场每天播放两次，每次一小时。
So along with the speeches and the candidate appearances, Mike Ford tried to research the question, could Jerry Springer the man get beyond Jerry Springer the show?
因此，在演讲和候选人露面的同时，迈克·福特试图研究这样一个问题：杰里·斯普林格这个人能否超越杰里·斯普林格的表演？
Put another way, had Springer forever blown his chance to do the one thing he truly loved doing?
换句话说，斯普林格是否永远失去了做他真正喜欢做的事情的机会？
We put together, more or less, focus groups.
我们或多或少地组建了焦点小组。
And we sat them in a room.
我们让他们坐在一个房间里。
And instead of asking them questions directly about Jerry, we decided what we should do is, in effect, run a campaign before their eyes that was completely honest about all the things he'd ever done wrong or were distasteful and then mixing them with a bio of the guy, and then letting him talk to camera about issues.
我们没有直接向他们询问有关杰瑞的问题，而是决定实际上应该在他们眼前开展一场活动，完全诚实地讲述他曾经做过的错误或令人反感的所有事情，然后将其与该人的个人简介混合在一起，然后让他在镜头前谈论问题。
We had impressive voices reading mean, horrible, nasty editorials.
我们用令人印象深刻的声音朗读卑鄙、可怕、令人讨厌的社论。
They had clips from the show.
他们有演出的剪辑。
They had headlines about bad things.
他们的头条新闻都是关于坏事的。
They saw all the bad, but then they saw a lot of the good.
他们看到了所有的坏处，但随后他们也看到了很多好的一面。
In every market, we started horribly.
在每个市场，我们的起步都很糟糕。
And every single one of them turned around, in every audience, in every market.
他们中的每一个都在每一个观众、每一个市场上都发生了转变。
And the key thing there was that information is received in inverse proportion to its predictability.
关键是信息的接收与其可预测性成反比。
So if you said Jerry Springer is dating a llama, they would go, yeah, yeah, I saw that in the Enquirer.
所以，如果你说杰里·斯普林格正在和一只美洲驼约会，他们会说，是的，是的，我在《国家询问报》上看到了。
But then you start to unroll this other stuff.
但随后你开始展开其他的东西。
And when he looked at camera, instead of talking about what's going on in the state and in the country, it was completely persuasive because it was all new.
当他看着镜头时，他没有谈论州和国家正在发生的事情，而是完全有说服力的，因为它是全新的。
But there was one other thing they told Mike Ford.
但他们还告诉迈克·福特另一件事。
All the people in all the focus groups said the only way they could vote for him was if he quit his show.
所有焦点小组的所有人都表示，他们投票给他的唯一方法就是他退出节目。
The voters, it turns out, could get beyond Springer the show to Springer the man, as long as Springer the man did it first, which is what killed his exploratory bid in the end.
事实证明，只要斯普林格这个人先这么做，选民就可以超越施普林格的表演，转向施普林格这个人，而这正是他最终扼杀了他的探索性竞选的原因。
He couldn't get out of his TV contract in time to start a Senate race.
他无法及时解除电视合同以开始参议院竞选。
But he's still out there giving speeches.
但他仍然在那里发表演讲。
If you go to the website runjerryrun.com, you'll see five events with Ohio Democratic organizations scheduled next month alone.
如果您访问 runjerryrun.com 网站，您会看到仅下个月就安排的俄亥俄州民主党组织的五场活动。
Springer has been thinking a lot about his message.
施普林格一直在思考他的信息。
He hits it in every speech he gives.
他在每次演讲中都击中了这一点。
And it goes something like this.
事情是这样的。
We all believe, Republicans and Democrats alike, that the purpose of government is to provide protection.
我们都相信，无论是共和党人还是民主党人，政府的目的是提供保护。
No one disputes that government should maintain a military or a police force, or try to stop terrorists.
没有人质疑政府应该维持一支军队或警察部队，或者试图阻止恐怖分子。
But Democrats believe that government should protect its citizens from another form of violence as well.
但民主党人认为政府也应该保护其公民免受另一种形式的暴力侵害。
The violence of a pink slip on a Friday afternoon that says, you've been laid off, and now you don't have enough money to take care of your family-- job insecurity, the inability to get health insurance, that you have to choose, should I take my medicine this month, or do I buy my kid a coat for the winter?
周五下午，一份解雇通知书的暴力内容是，你被解雇了，现在你没有足够的钱来照顾你的家人——工作不稳定，无法获得健康保险，你必须做出选择，我这个月应该吃药，还是给我的孩子买一件过冬的外套？
So the Democratic Party exists in America today to provide protection for middle and low-income America, particularly against economic violence, as well as military violence.
因此，民主党今天在美国的存在是为了为美国的中低收入群体提供保护，特别是针对经济暴力和军事暴力。
Has doing the show for these last eight, 10 years, has it informed your political thinking in any way?
在过去的八年、十年里做这个节目是否以任何方式影响了你的政治思维？
No, it's just confirmed it.
不，刚刚确认过。
I mean, any job I've ever had, it's been the same constituency.
我的意思是，我从事过的任何工作，都是同一个选区。
It's been middle and low-income people that need a voice, that need help, that need whatever.
中低收入人群需要发出声音，需要帮助，需要任何东西。
So even in my entertainment, that's my base.
所以即使在我的娱乐中，这也是我的基础。
In politics, it certainly was my base.
在政治上，这当然是我的基础。
When I practiced law, it was my base.
当我从事法律工作时，这是我的基础。
I mean, this is who I am.
我的意思是，这就是我。
[APPLAUSE] Jerry Springer 54 years ago this week, I came to America.
[掌声]杰里·斯普林格（Jerry Springer） 54 年前的这个星期，我来到了美国。
I was five years old.
那年我五岁。
Most of my family had been killed in the Holocaust in the camps in Germany and Austria during World War II.
第二次世界大战期间，我的大多数家人在德国和奥地利集中营的大屠杀中丧生。
The speech that you're hearing now is one Springer delivered back in January of 2003 to a group of Ohio Democratic County chairs.
您现在听到的演讲是施普林格于 2003 年 1 月向俄亥俄州民主党县主席小组发表的演讲。
There was no press there.
那里没有媒体。
And the only reason we have it on tape is because an audience member recorded the whole thing on a personal tape machine from his chair.
我们将其录制成磁带的唯一原因是一位观众在他的椅子上用个人磁带机录制了整个过程。
Probably thought it would be a joke.
大概以为这会是个笑话。
But he was so moved by the speech that he took the tape and had it duplicated at his own expense.
但他的演讲让他非常感动，于是他拿走了录音带，并自费复制了它。
He sent it around to all the county chairmen around the state.
他将其发送给全州所有县主席。
The idea being, here's a guy with a message for us.
这个想法是，这是一个给我们传达信息的人。
In the speech, Springer gives his standard economic spiel and also condemns America's current foreign policy as arrogant and bullying.
施普林格在演讲中发表了标准的经济演讲，并谴责美国当前的外交政策傲慢和霸凌。
And then he ends with his own story of first coming to America with his refugee parents on a boat from Europe.
然后他以自己的故事作为结尾，讲述了他与难民父母第一次从欧洲乘船来到美国的故事。
We came over on the Queen Mary, January 19 to January 24, a five-day voyage over to America in 1949.
1949 年，我们于 1 月 19 日至 24 日乘坐玛丽女王号前往美国，为期五天。
And when we arrived, my very first memory was my mom waking me up and saying, Jerald, we have to go up on the top deck there, one of the decks of the Queen Mary.
当我们到达时，我的第一个记忆是我妈妈叫醒我并说，杰拉尔德，我们必须去那里的顶层甲板，玛丽皇后号的甲板之一。
And all I remember-- because the rest has been told to me.
我只记得这些——因为其余的都是别人告诉我的。
I was only five.
我当时只有五岁。
But I vividly remember everyone standing out on top of the ship on the deck there-- there were about 2,000 passengers on board-- packed together, packed together.
但我清楚地记得站在船顶甲板上的每个人——船上大约有2000名乘客——挤在一起，挤在一起。
And what I remember other than being freezing is that nobody said a word.
我记得除了僵住之外，没有人说一句话。
It was absolute quiet.
周围绝对安静。
And we were passing the Statue of Liberty.
我们当时正经过自由女神像。
And my mother told me later on as I got older-- because, obviously, I wouldn't remember exactly what I had said.
后来，随着我年龄的增长，我母亲告诉了我——因为，显然，我记不清自己说了什么。
But she remembers me asking her, what are we looking at?
但她记得我问她，我们在看什么？
And what does it mean?
这意味着什么？
And she said in German, [SPEAKING GERMAN], one day everything.
她用德语说，[说德语]，总有一天一切都会发生。
The Statue of Liberty means everything.
自由女神像意味着一切。
We take it for granted today.
今天我们认为这是理所当然的。
We take it for granted.
我们认为这是理所当然的。
Remember, the Statue of Liberty stands for what America is.
请记住，自由女神像代表着美国。
We, as Democrats, have to remind ourselves and remind the country the great principles we stand for.
作为民主党人，我们必须提醒自己并提醒国家我们所代表的伟大原则。
This is a place of protection.
这是一个受保护的地方。
This is not a country of bullies.
这不是一个恶霸横行的国家。
We are not an empire.
我们不是一个帝国。
We are the light.
我们是光。
We are the Statue of Liberty.
我们是自由女神像。
Thank you for having me.
谢谢你有我。
[APPLAUSE] Alex Blumberg The elements aren't new-- the immigrant experience, help for working people, the Statue of Liberty.
[掌声] Alex Blumberg 这些元素并不新鲜——移民经历、对劳动人民的帮助、自由女神像。
But the fact is somehow electrifying for the people in that hall and the people passing around this tape.
但这个事实在某种程度上让大厅里的人和传递这盘磁带的人们感到兴奋。
Wouldn't it be funny if in the end what the world really needs is more Jerry Springer?
如果最终世界真正需要的是更多杰瑞·斯普林格，那不是很有趣吗？
Alex Blumberg, he is one of the producers of our show.
亚历克斯·布隆伯格（Alex Blumberg），他是我们节目的制片人之一。
Springer, like I said earlier, died last week at the age of 79.
正如我之前所说，斯普林格上周去世，享年 79 岁。
He was on TV until 2021 and did a weekly podcast until just a few months ago.
直到 2021 年，他一直在电视上露面，直到几个月前，他还每周做一次播客。
Since the story first aired, Mike Ford, who's the political advisor in Alex's story, has also died.
自故事首次播出以来，亚历克斯故事中的政治顾问迈克·福特也去世了。
Coming up, so two women, an Orthodox Jew, and Donald Trump walk into a bar.
即将到来，两个女人，一个正统犹太人和唐纳德·特朗普走进一家酒吧。
Actually, they walk into the second half of our show.
事实上，他们走进了我们节目的后半部分。
And that happens in just one minute on Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
当我们的节目继续进行时，这一切就发生在芝加哥公共广播电台的一分钟内。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program, "Stories of People Leaving the Fold," and like Jerry Springer, having one part of them that stays stuck back in the old days before they left.
今天的节目是“人们离开家族的故事”，就像杰里·斯普林格一样，他们的一部分仍然停留在他们离开之前的旧时光。
We have arrived at Act Two of our show-- Act Two, God and Hockey.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕——第二幕，上帝与曲棍球。
Shalom Auslander and his wife were raised in religious homes, but they were wobbling away from it, thinking of leaving the fold.
沙洛姆·奥斯兰德和他的妻子在宗教家庭中长大，但他们摇摆不定地想要离开宗教家庭。
But still, living in an Orthodox Jewish community in Teaneck, New Jersey, they were huge fans of the hockey team the New York Rangers.
但尽管如此，居住在新泽西州蒂内克的一个正统犹太社区，他们仍然是曲棍球队纽约游骑兵队的忠实粉丝。
And in 1994, the Rangers had an incredible season-- beat the Islanders, beat the Devils in a seven-game double overtime win, went to the playoffs against Vancouver.
1994 年，流浪者队度过了一个令人难以置信的赛季——击败了岛民队，在七场双加时赛中击败了魔鬼队，并进入了季后赛对阵温哥华队。
And during one of these away games, fans could go, while the team was in Vancouver, for $5 and sit in Madison Square Garden and watch the game on the jumbotron with other fans.
在其中一场客场比赛中，当球队在温哥华时，球迷们可以花 5 美元前往麦迪逊广场花园，与其他球迷一起通过大屏幕观看比赛。
But the problem for this couple was the game was on a Saturday, and religious Jews don't drive on Saturdays.
但这对夫妇面临的问题是比赛是在周六进行的，而虔诚的犹太人周六不开车。
It's against the rules of their religion.
这违反了他们的宗教规则。
Shalom and his wife really, really wanted to go.
沙洛姆和他的妻子真的非常想去。
So this was push coming to shove in terms of the whole God existence thing.
因此，就整个上帝存在而言，这是一个紧要关头。
We kind of looked at each other.
我们互相看着对方。
And I was all for going.
我完全同意去。
I just said, to hell with it.
我只是说，见鬼去吧。
My argument was if God got them in that position, and--
我的论点是，如果上帝让他们处于那个位置，而且——
[CHUCKLES] God made the Rangers winners.
[笑]上帝让流浪者队成为了胜利者。
Look, he brought over Messier from Canada.
你看，他从加拿大带来了梅西耶。
He brought over Kovalev from Russia.
他从俄罗斯引进了科瓦列夫。
He really went out of his way to get these guys into this position to win.
他真的竭尽全力让这些人进入这个位置以获得胜利。
It's probably a mitzvah to go watch them, this commandment to go watch them.
去观察他们可能是一种戒律，这条去观察他们的诫命。
What was her argument?
她的论据是什么？
Shalom Auslander Her argument was fear, terror, God revenge.
沙洛姆·奥斯兰德（Shalom Auslander）她的论点是恐惧、恐怖、上帝的复仇。
So her feeling was, let's walk.
所以她的感觉是，我们走吧。
It's about 14 miles from what we judged.
与我们的判断相距约 14 英里。
Wait a second.
等一下。
You actually thought that if you drove instead of walked that God would actually make the team lose?
你真的认为如果你开车而不是步行，上帝真的会让球队输吗？
I did.
我做到了。
Ira Glass That would be his revenge on you, really?
艾拉·格拉斯 这就是他对你的报复，真的吗？
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
Well, I certainly knew that if it did happen, there would be a part of my head that went, oh, nice going, nice going.
嗯，我当然知道，如果它真的发生了，我脑子里会有一部分会想，哦，进展顺利，进展顺利。
They play all season, and then you've got to go get in a cab, and now look what happened.
他们整个赛季都在踢球，然后你就得坐上出租车，看看发生了什么。
So let's walk from New Jersey into Manhattan, literally?
那么，我们真的从新泽西步行到曼哈顿吗？
Yes, literally.
是的，从字面上看。
Ira Glass Across the bridge.
艾拉·格拉斯 过桥。
Down Teaneck Road, walk along the side of Route 4, which is this eight-lane super slab highway, cross the George Washington Bridge, walk down the highway, cross through Harlem, hit Broadway, and then it's 100 blocks down to Madison Square Garden.
沿着提内克路 (Teaneck Road) 沿着 4 号公路一侧步行，这是一条八车道的超级板式高速公路，穿过乔治华盛顿大桥，沿着高速公路步行，穿过哈莱姆区，到达百老汇，然后再行驶 100 个街区即可到达麦迪逊广场花园。
So we go.
所以我们走吧。
And as we're heading along, it's turning out to be quite a longer walk than we thought it was, particularly in our Sabbath finest.
当我们继续前进时，事实证明这比我们想象的要长得多，尤其是在我们最好的安息日。
And those are hard shoes.
这些都是硬鞋。
But her feet are slowly blistering.
但她的脚正在慢慢起泡。
And it's just getting worse and worse, and she's complaining more and more.
而且情况越来越糟，她的抱怨也越来越多。
It's at the point where she's taking her shoes off and walking.
就在她脱掉鞋子走路的时候。
And I don't know how many of you have been in Manhattan, but that's a huge commitment to walk down a Manhattan street in just your socks.
我不知道你们中有多少人去过曼哈顿，但只穿袜子走在曼哈顿街道上是一个巨大的承诺。
You've got to be in a lot of pain.
你一定很痛苦。
So by the time we get there, the euphoria of the game took over.
所以当我们到达那里时，游戏的兴奋感占据了主导地位。
And it was just really great to be there.
能在那里真是太棒了。
But we didn't really consider God much after that until the Rangers lost.
但在那之后我们并没有真正考虑过上帝，直到流浪者队输球。
I think they lost 4-1.
我认为他们1-4输了。
It was ridiculous.
这太荒谬了。
And the game just ended, and everyone just starts filing out miserably.
比赛刚刚结束，每个人都开始悲惨地列队离开。
And we're just standing there just dumbfounded.
我们只是站在那里目瞪口呆。
I mean, not only do we now hate the Rangers, but we're just-- theologically, we're spiraling.
我的意思是，我们现在不仅讨厌流浪者队，而且从神学上来说，我们正在螺旋式上升。
And the moment that final buzzer rang, my wife looked at me and said, we should have driven.
终场哨声响起的那一刻，我的妻子看着我说，我们应该开车。
It was just that kind of, all right, if this is the way he's going to play, if this is the kind of game He's playing, then we're not having any of it.
就是这样，好吧，如果这就是他要打球的方式，如果这就是他正在打的比赛，那么我们就不会再有这样的事情了。
And we left the Garden.
然后我们就离开了花园。
I had a sidewalk dog.
我有一只路边狗。
I was like, I'm strictly non-kosher from now on.
我当时想，从现在开始我就严格不遵守犹太教规了。
[CHUCKLES] Take that.
[轻笑]拿那个。
Shalom Auslander Yeah, how do you like that?
Shalom Auslander 是的，你觉得怎么样？
Where can I get a Slim Jim around here?
我在这附近哪里可以买到 Slim Jim ？
And a milk.
还有一杯牛奶。
Shalom Auslander Yeah, exactly.
沙洛姆·奥斯兰德 是的，没错。
I never thought about this is the downside of having a personal relationship with God, is that you'd constantly be bearing a grudge.
我从来没有想过这是与神建立个人关系的缺点，就是你会不断地怀恨在心。
I thought it was all just like reassurance and stuff from God all the time.
我一直以为这一切就像是来自上帝的安慰和东西。
He's there in times of need.
在需要的时候他就在那里。
I never thought that you could actually just feel a grudge against him for something like this.
没想到你竟然会因为这样的事情而对他怀恨在心。
Well, it depends what kind of God you're picturing.
嗯，这取决于你所想象的上帝是什么样的。
I came from a normally, incredibly dysfunctional family with a pretty overbearing father.
我来自一个正常的、极其不正常的家庭，有一个非常专横的父亲。
So as a kid, you go into these Hebrew schools.
所以作为一个孩子，你会进入这些希伯来语学校。
You're hearing, "Our father who art in heaven," and I'm going, oh, God, tell me there's not another one up in heaven.
你听到的是，“我们在天上的父亲”，我要说，哦，上帝，告诉我天上没有另一位父亲了。
He's bad enough at home.
他在家里已经够糟糕的了。
He's bad enough at home.
他在家里已经够糟糕的了。
Wow, it's so interesting.
哇，太有趣了。
I realized as you said that, my image of God is exactly-- I've never put this together in my life-- is exactly my image of my father, but bigger, which is, he's usually not around.
正如你所说，我意识到，我对上帝的印象正是——我一生中从未把这些放在一起——正是我对父亲的印象，但更大，也就是说，他通常不在身边。
Sometimes he'll take an interest.
有时他会感兴趣。
He means well.
他的本意是好的。
But mostly he's kind of like, you're on your own.
但大多数时候他都会说，你只能靠自己了。
Yeah.
是的。
That wasn't mine.
那不是我的。
I wish that were mine.
我希望那是我的。
Mine was a God in heaven lumbering around in his underpants half drunk on Kedem wine, looking to yell at somebody.
我心目中的上帝是天上的神，他喝得半醉，只穿着内裤，笨手笨脚地走来走去，想要对某人大喊大叫。
[LAUGHTER] So I picture that guy watching the Ranger game going, to hell with you, buddy.
[笑声] 所以我想象那个看游骑兵队比赛的人会跟你一起见鬼去吧，伙计。
Yeah.
是的。
So you have this moment with the team.
所以你和团队一起度过了这一刻。
Does this actually have consequences past that week?
这实际上会在那周之后产生影响吗？
You know, I think it helped hasten the slide.
你知道，我认为这有助于加速下滑。
I think it was-- the week after was the first time that we just ignored the fact that it was Sabbath.
我想那是——之后的一周我们第一次忽略了安息日这一事实。
And I think our big God revolution at that point was to get in our car and go to a mall.
我认为当时我们的大上帝革命就是开车去购物中心。
And that was the big one for us.
这对我们来说是一件大事。
Sabbath was the big one.
安息日是最重要的一天。
That's the hard one to get past.
这是最难克服的一关。
So this happened a decade ago.
所以这发生在十年前。
Have there been times that you missed being religious, having that life, having that community?
你是否曾一度怀念宗教信仰、怀念那样的生活、怀念那样的社区？
Is there some part of it that you've missed along the way?
一路上你是否错过了其中的某些部分？
No, because I gave up the practice of it.
不，因为我放弃了它的练习。
But it's funny.
但这很有趣。
My family or the people from that community or anybody I went to school with would look at me and say, oh, he's completely irreligious and not spiritual at all.
我的家人、那个社区的人、或者和我一起上学的任何人都会看着我说，哦，他完全没有宗教信仰，根本没有精神。
But the truth is, I feel like the most religious person I know because I still haven't quite gotten that God out of my head.
但事实是，我感觉自己是我认识的最虔诚的人，因为我仍然没有完全把上帝从我的脑海中抹去。
He's still there.
他还在那里。
He still makes comments.
他仍然发表评论。
There's always the picture of a big, old, frowning man in the back of the room shaking his head, saying, you're going to pay for this.
房间后面总有这样一个画面：一个又大又老、皱着眉头的男人摇着头说，你要为此付出代价。
So I could say I don't believe in it, but that's not going to get that character out of my life.
所以我可以说我不相信它，但这并不会让这个角色从我的生活中消失。
And I don't know why I can't just give it up.
我不知道为什么我不能放弃它。
I wish I could.
我希望我能。
Shalom Auslander.
沙洛姆·奥斯兰德.
This story appears in his memoir, Foreskin's Lament.
这个故事出现在他的回忆录《包皮的哀歌》中。
His most recent book is a novel called Mother for Dinner.
他的最新著作是一本名为《母亲晚餐》的小说。
Act Three, Would You Like to Come Up to First Class?
第三幕，你想上头等舱吗？
Sometimes, something happens to you that you'd like to walk away from and never think about again, but you find you can't.
有时候，发生在你身上的事情你想走开，不再去想，但你发现你做不到。
For instance, you had an indelible experience with Donald Trump.
例如，你与唐纳德·特朗普有过一段不可磨灭的经历。
That's what the journalist E.
记者E是这样说的。
Jean Carroll says happened to her.
吉恩·卡罗尔说这件事发生在她身上。
These last two weeks, she's been in court.
过去两周，她一直出庭。
She's the accuser in the rape trial of Donald Trump that's been happening in New York City.
她是纽约市发生的唐纳德·特朗普强奸案审判中的原告。
Carroll says that back in the 1990s, Donald Trump raped her in a dressing room at the department store Bergdorf Goodman.
卡罗尔说，早在 20 世纪 90 年代，唐纳德·特朗普就在 Bergdorf Goodman 百货公司的更衣室里强奸了她。
He says she's lying, that her case is a, quote, "complete con job," "a hoax." She's suing him for defamation and for battery.
他说她在撒谎，她的案子是“完全的骗局”，“一个骗局”。她正在起诉他诽谤和殴打。
She's one of dozens of women who've accused the former president of sexual assault and harassment over the years.
她是多年来指控前总统性侵犯和性骚扰的数十名女性之一。
The former president denies all their allegations.
前总统否认他们的所有指控。
These stories have been so widely covered, and everybody is so used to them that a few years back, to Carroll, it felt like at that point they were just being ignored, which seemed incredible to her.
这些故事被广泛报道，每个人都已经习惯了它们，以至于几年前，对卡罗尔来说，当时感觉它们只是被忽视了，这对她来说似乎令人难以置信。
It killed her that these stories just somehow didn't seem to matter.
这些故事似乎并不重要，这让她很伤心。
And so she decided to try to do something about it.
因此她决定尝试为此做点什么。
She had a bunch of conversations with other women who have accused the president, and she published them in a series of stories in The Atlantic.
她与其他指控总统的女性进行了一系列对话，并将这些对话发表在《大西洋月刊》的一系列故事中。
And her idea was, most people only have a vague sense of these stories and don't really have much of a sense of what these women say actually happened.
她的想法是，大多数人对这些故事只有模糊的感觉，而对这些女性所说的实际发生的事情并没有太多了解。
And her thought that was that by diving into the details of the story, she would restore them to human size and full color.
她的想法是，通过深入研究故事的细节，她可以将它们恢复到人类的大小和完整的色彩。
She adapted one of the articles that she wrote back then for us.
她为我们改编了她当时写的一篇文章。
We first aired this back in 2020.
我们于 2020 年首次播出。
This particular one is with one of Donald Trump's accusers named Jessica Leeds, who actually testified in E.
这个特别的事件是与唐纳德·特朗普的一位指控者杰西卡·利兹一起发生的，她实际上在 E. 案中作证。
Jean Carroll's trial these past few weeks.
过去几周吉恩·卡罗尔的审判。
Warning about content before we start.
在我们开始之前对内容发出警告。
This is a frank conversation about alleged sexual assault.
这是一次关于涉嫌性侵犯的坦率对话。
Here's E.
这里是E。
Jean Carroll.
让·卡罗尔.
Let me set the scene-- midsummer twilight and Jessica Leeds and I are letting down what's left of our hair.
让我来设定场景——仲夏暮色，杰西卡·利兹和我正在放下我们剩下的头发。
Jessica's in her elegant crib in the Blue Ridge Mountains.
杰西卡在蓝岭山脉她优雅的婴儿床上。
I'm in my little shack just off the Appalachian Trail.
我在阿巴拉契亚小道附近的小棚屋里。
And we're Zooming like two old screech owls, discovering how much we have in common, which includes our love for Mr. Paul Newman, our age, and our height.
我们像两只老尖叫猫头鹰一样飞速前进，发现我们有多少共同点，其中包括我们对保罗·纽曼先生的热爱、我们的年龄和我们的身高。
How tall are you now?
你现在多高？
Jessica Leeds Well I'm 5' 7" now.
杰西卡·利兹 好吧，我现在身高 5 英尺 7 英寸。
I was 5' 9" at the-- I've lost 2 inches.
我那时身高 5 英尺 9 英寸——我瘦了 2 英寸。
Me too.
我也是。
I've lost 2 inches.
我瘦了 2 英寸。
Jessica Leeds I don't know where they've gone, but I've lost them.
杰西卡·利兹 我不知道他们去了哪里，但我已经失去了他们。
I love being tall.
我喜欢长得高。
When I was working, I was always so thankful--
当我工作的时候，我总是很感激——
Yeah, me too.
是的，我也是。
Jessica Leeds --that I was tall.
杰西卡·利兹——我很高。
About 40 years ago, when Jessica was working as a salesperson for a company that sold newsprint to publications like The Washington Post, she sat down next to Donald Trump on an airplane.
大约 40 年前，当杰西卡在一家向《华盛顿邮报》等出版物销售新闻纸的公司担任销售人员时，她在飞机上坐在唐纳德·特朗普旁边。
Let me just say that if you have never Zoomed with a silver-haired, soigné 78-year-old woman who describes what it's like being strapped in a seat on a Braniff Airlines flight with a future president of the United States trying to fasten his lips on her like a 6' 2" suckfish, well, in my opinion, you have not lived, let alone Zoomed at all.
我只想说，如果你从来没有和一位银发的 78 岁老妇一起 Zoomed，她描述了被绑在布兰尼夫航空公司航班上的座位上，而一位未来的美国总统试图像一条 6 英尺 2 英寸的吸鱼一样用嘴唇吻住她，那么，在我看来，你根本就没有活过，更不用说 Zoomed 了。
But before we board that flight, a refresher.
但在我们登机之前，我们先复习一下。
Jessica was one of the first women to publicly accuse Trump of sexual assault in 2016.
杰西卡是 2016 年第一批公开指控特朗普性侵犯的女性之一。
It was on the front page of The New York Times.
它登上了《纽约时报》的头版。
I knew if the story did get any attention that the first thing Trump would say is that I wasn't pretty enough.
我知道如果这个故事确实引起了任何关注，特朗普会说的第一句话就是我不够漂亮。
Right.
对。
Jessica Leeds I knew instinctively that that's what he was going to say.
杰西卡·利兹 我本能地知道这就是他要说的。
How did Jessica know?
杰西卡怎么知道的？
Because Jessica is an old bat.
因为杰西卡是一只老蝙蝠。
Old bats are the best, even better than screech owls.
老蝙蝠是最好的，甚至比尖叫猫头鹰还要好。
I'm an old bat myself.
我自己也是一只老蝙蝠了。
We old bats don't kid ourselves.
我们老蝙蝠不会自欺欺人的。
And in fact, one day after The New York Times published a story about what happened to Jessica on that plane in 1980, Trump yammered about her accusations at a rally.
事实上，就在《纽约时报》发表一篇关于 1980 年杰西卡在那架飞机上遭遇的报道的一天后，特朗普在一次集会上对她的指控大发牢骚。
(MOCKINGLY) Oh, I was with Donald Trump in 1980.
（嘲笑）哦，1980 年我和唐纳德·特朗普在一起。
I was sitting with him on an airplane.
我和他一起坐在飞机上。
And he went after me on the plane.
他在飞机上追我。
Yeah, I'm going to go after-- believe me, she would not be my first choice, that I can tell you.
是的，我要追求——相信我，她不会是我的第一选择，我可以告诉你。
You don't know.
你不知道。
That would not be my first choice.
那不会是我的第一选择。
I told Jessica the same thing happened to me.
我告诉杰西卡，同样的事情也发生在我身上。
I knew it was coming too.
我也知道它会来。
I knew it, of course.
我当然知道。
And then he said it about me-- she's not my type.
然后他就这样评价我——她不是我喜欢的类型。
Because they're running pictures of me when I'm 75 years old.
因为他们正在播放我 75 岁时的照片。
And it's not fair.
这不公平。
If they had run pictures of me as I looked, you and I caught tons of shit because we're older women.
如果他们把我的照片拍成我的样子，你和我就会抓到很多屎，因为我们都是上了年纪的女人。
For the honor of Jessica Leeds and old bats everywhere, Jessica is a beauty now, and she was a beauty 40 years ago when she got on that flight to New York.
为了杰西卡利兹和各地老蝙蝠的荣誉，杰西卡现在是个美女，40年前她登上飞往纽约的航班时也是个美女。
And as she remembers it, it was a Braniff flight.
她记得，那是布兰尼夫的航班。
Braniff was the chic airline.
布兰尼夫是一家别致的航空公司。
Her seat would have been full grain leather.
她的座位应该是全粒面皮革的。
Her flight attendant would have been clad in Halston.
她的空乘人员会穿着霍尔斯顿服装。
And her plane, it would have been painted in Perseus Green, Mercury Blue, or Sparkling Burgundy.
她的飞机会被涂成珀尔修斯绿、水星蓝或闪闪发光的酒红色。
And so what were you wearing?
那你穿什么？
Do you remember when you got on that plane?
你还记得你什么时候登上那架飞机的吗？
Yep.
是的。
I had my best suit.
我有我最好的西装。
It was a brown tweed.
那是一件棕色花呢。
Oh, I loved that suit.
哦，我喜欢那套衣服。
And it was a jacket and a skirt.
这是一件夹克和一条裙子。
It was a fabulous outfit.
这是一套很棒的衣服。
It really was.
确实如此。
I never wore it again after that day, though.
不过，那天之后我就再也没有穿过它了。
I hung on to it for quite a while, but I never wore it again.
我坚持了很长一段时间，但我再也没有穿过它。
I know exactly what she means.
我很清楚她的意思。
It was the same for me with the dress I had on at Bergdorf's.
我在 Bergdorf 穿的裙子也是如此。
I didn't want to throw it away because it was a beautiful Donna Karan.
我不想扔掉它，因为它是美丽的唐娜·卡兰。
I would never throw it away.
我永远不会把它扔掉。
But I couldn't put it on because bad things happened.
但我不能戴上它，因为发生了不好的事情。
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
E.
E.
Jean Carroll OK, so isn't that interesting?
Jean Carroll 好吧，这不是很有趣吗？
We have so much in common.
我们有很多共同点。
All right.
好吧。
So you were-- now, tell me what happened.
所以你——现在，告诉我发生了什么事。
You get on the plane.
你上飞机。
I get on the plane.
我上飞机了。
I was sitting in the back.
我坐在后面。
And I remember watching the stewardess come walking down the aisle.
我记得看着空姐走过过道。
And she saw me, and she said, would you like to come up to first class?
她看到了我，她说，你想上头等舱吗？
We have space.
我们有空间。
It never occurred to me not to say yes.
我从来没有想过不答应。
And I gathered my purse, and I went up to first class.
我拿起钱包，上了头等舱。
That had had happened before.
这种事以前也发生过。
Yeah.
是的。
I kind of accepted the fact that it was entertainment for the big honchos up in first class.
我有点接受这样一个事实：这是头等舱大佬们的娱乐。
Now, I don't understand if people understand what we're talking about, but that's what they did.
现在，我不知道人们是否明白我们在说什么，但他们就是这么做的。
They chose the best-looking, best-dressed people and put them up in first.
他们挑选出最漂亮、穿着最好的人，然后把他们放在第一位。
That's right.
没错。
E.
E.
Jean Carroll What we're talking about is how things used to be-- buying a ticket, putting on our best clothes, hopping on a cocktail party, heading for New York, or Chicago, or Miami, or any jazzy city, USA.
让·卡罗尔 我们谈论的是过去的情况——买一张票，穿上最好的衣服，参加鸡尾酒会，前往纽约、芝加哥、迈阿密或美国任何爵士城市。
And this party lacked zip unless somebody very rich or very pretty was present.
除非有非常富有或非常漂亮的人在场，否则这个聚会就缺乏活力。
Men in first class would size up the female passengers before boarding and hold a brief conference with the check-in crew.
头等舱的男士会在登机前打量女乘客，并与值机人员举行简短的会议。
Or alternately, a helpful flight attendant would simply stand in the aisle, waving people away and rearranging the seating chart so that an extremely tall chap, for instance, with black hair like greased felt could have the spot by me, which is what I told Jessica had happened on a jumbo jet to LA.
或者，一位乐于助人的空乘人员会简单地站在过道上，挥手示意人们走开，并重新安排座位表，以便一个非常高的家伙，例如，黑发像油毡一样的人可以在我身边占据一个位置，这就是我告诉杰西卡在飞往洛杉矶的大型喷气式飞机上发生的事情。
After the plane took off, following the meal, the chap shows me a photo of his private plane.
飞机起飞后，吃完饭后，那家伙向我展示了一张他的私人飞机的照片。
Then he shows me a photo of his Rolls-Royce.
然后他给我看了一张他的劳斯莱斯的照片。
Then he shows me his erection.
然后他向我展示了他的勃起。
It would never have occurred to me to call anybody and say anything.
我从来没有想过给任何人打电话并说什么。
We grew up expecting men to make a pass at-- I was not surprised.
我们从小就期待男人调情——我并不感到惊讶。
I expected it from men.
我期望男人能做到这一点。
Jessica, you and I were born during the Second World War.
杰西卡，你和我出生在第二次世界大战期间。
We did not report.
我们没有报告。
We expected it.
我们预料到了。
And we laughed.
我们笑了。
But, you know, we were wrong.
但是，你知道，我们错了。
We were wrong.
我们错了。
We should have spoken up like they're doing now.
我们应该像他们现在那样大声说出来。
Well, we were so thankful, though, to have--
好吧，不过我们还是很感激——
Yeah.
是的。
Oh, absolutely.
哦，绝对是。
E.
E.
Jean Carroll Oh, my lord.
琼·卡罗尔 哦，陛下。
The flight attendant escorts Jessica to the front of the plane.
空姐护送杰西卡到飞机前部。
She sits down in the aisle seat beside Donald Trump.
她坐在唐纳德·特朗普旁边靠过道的座位上。
As I recall, he introduced himself.
我记得他做了自我介绍。
The name meant nothing to me.
这个名字对我来说毫无意义。
It wouldn't have.
本来就不会有。
This was 1979, 1980.
这是1979年、1980年。
Jessica wasn't a native New Yorker.
杰西卡不是土生土长的纽约人。
And she was not yet aware of all the levels, the ranks, the spheres of New York society that Trump, a young rat out of Queens, was chewing his way through.
她还不知道特朗普这个来自皇后区的小老鼠正在蚕食纽约社会的各个层面、阶层和领域。
He was very good looking in 1980.
1980年的时候，他长得很帅。
Do you agree?
你同意吗？
Well-- E.
嗯——E.
Jean Carroll I found him very attractive in 1996.
Jean Carroll 1996 年我发现他非常有吸引力。
He was very pretty.
他非常漂亮。
Yeah, I guess.
是的，我想。
E.
E.
Jean Carroll He was not ugly.
让·卡罗尔 他并不丑。
I can remember-- I don't remember my reaction.
我记得——我不记得我的反应。
He was perfectly reasonable when I first sat down.
当我第一次坐下来时，他非常通情达理。
I mean, he was blonde, tall, good-sized man, that sort of stuff.
我是说，他是金发女郎，身材高大，身材魁梧，诸如此类。
But I don't remember being overwhelmed by his looks or--
但我不记得被他的外表迷住了或者——
What did we talk about?
我们聊了什么？
We talked about him.
我们谈到了他。
I remember we took off, and they served this wonderful meal.
我记得我们起飞了，他们提供了一顿美味的饭菜。
And then they came, and they picked up everything.
然后他们来了，他们捡起了所有东西。
And within a short amount of time, all of a sudden he's on me like a wet blanket.
在很短的时间内，他突然像一条湿毯子一样压在我身上。
Yes, yes.
是的，是的。
E.
E.
Jean Carroll She glances away from the screen with a revolted wince.
让·卡罗尔（Jean Carroll） 她把目光从屏幕上移开，厌恶地皱起眉头。
It was such a shock.
真是太震惊了。
It was like all of a sudden, he's like on me.
就好像突然之间，他就喜欢上我了。
Jessica is ladylike.
杰西卡很有淑女气质。
Therefore, allow me, for I have experience with Trump, to say in plain English what I believe Trump is about to do.
因此，请允许我，因为我有与特朗普打交道的经验，用简单的英语说出我认为特朗普将要做的事情。
I believe he will go straight for the crotch, just like he brags on the Access Hollywood tape, this man who today claims that he has never kissed or groped a woman without consent.
我相信他会直奔胯部，就像他在《Access Hollywood》磁带上吹嘘的那样，这个男人今天声称他从未在未经同意的情况下亲吻或抚摸过女人。
It's like he's got four extra hands because he's grabbing my breasts.
就好像他多了四只手，因为他抓住了我的胸部。
He's trying to kiss me.
他想吻我。
I'm trying to get his hands off of me.
我正试图把他的手从我身上拿开。
And this struggle went on for a little while.
而这场斗争持续了一段时间。
And then it's when he started to put his hand up my skirt that I got a jolt of strength and managed to wiggle myself out of the seat.
然后，当他开始把手伸进我的裙子时，我突然感到一股力量，设法从座位上挣脱出来。
Jessica grabs her purse and storms to the back of the plane.
杰西卡抓起钱包，冲向飞机后部。
Now, wait, so did he make it all the way to your panties or not?
现在，等等，他有没有一直到你的内裤？
No, no. E.
不，不。 E.
Jean Carroll Because you had, by that time, started to stand up, right?
Jean Carroll 因为那时你已经开始站起来了，对吧？
Right.
对。
E.
E.
Jean Carroll Was there anybody else?
吉恩·卡罗尔 还有其他人吗？
Yeah, there was the guy across the aisle whose eyes were about the size of a saucer.
是的，过道对面有一个人，他的眼睛有茶碟那么大。
And I kept thinking, why don't you say something?
我一直在想，你为什么不说点什么？
Or where is the stewardess on this whole thing?
或者整个事件中的空姐在哪里？
Why doesn't somebody come and rescue me?
为什么没有人来救我？
And that's when I realized there's only me that was going to rescue me.
就在那时我意识到只有我能拯救我。
So that's when I--
所以就在那时我——
Well, I'm glad you thought of-- see, some women freeze in this situation.
好吧，我很高兴你想到——看，有些女人在这种情况下僵住了。
Yes, yes, I know.
是的，是的，我知道。
E.
E.
Jean Carroll You didn't freeze.
吉恩·卡罗尔：你没有冻结。
No, no, but I certainly didn't say anything.
不，不，但我当然什么也没说。
I didn't say anything either.
我也没说什么。
I didn't scream.
我没有尖叫。
I didn't do-- I laughed.
我没有这么做——我笑了。
Did you laugh?
你笑了吗？
Yeah.
是的。
No, I don't recall laughing.
不，我不记得笑过。
No. I took it seriously.
不，我是认真对待的。
I mean, I-- this was a real physical attack.
我的意思是，我——这是一次真正的身体攻击。
And--
还有——
Yeah.
是的。
E.
E.
Jean Carroll Although we talk about Trump groping women, most people don't understand how brazen Trump really is because no one knows what groping means.
让·卡罗尔 虽然我们谈论特朗普猥亵女性，但大多数人不明白特朗普到底有多厚颜无耻，因为没有人知道猥亵意味着什么。
It's one of the reasons I wanted to talk to the Trump accusers.
这是我想与特朗普指控者交谈的原因之一。
Who knows what the heck Trump is actually doing or on what part of the female body he is doing it?
谁知道特朗普到底在做什么，或者他在女性身体的哪个部位做这件事？
One of Trump's accusers described for me Trump putting his hand up her skirt and onto her vulva.
特朗普的一名原告向我描述了特朗普将手伸进她的裙子并放在她的外阴上的情况。
And she used the plain English.
她用的是简单的英语。
It was like a squish, she said, a squeeze.
她说，这就像挤压，挤压。
And she made a motion with her hand like squeezing a rubber duck.
她用手做了一个动作，就像捏橡皮鸭一样。
That is groping.
那就是摸索。
So why does Trump do it?
那么特朗普为何要这么做呢？
Jessica and I ponder.
杰西卡和我思考着。
Let's try to figure this out.
让我们试着弄清楚这一点。
The main question is, he knows he's not going to be able to have intercourse with you on the plane.
主要问题是，他知道他无法在飞机上与你发生性关系。
He knows this.
他知道这一点。
Why does he do this?
他为什么要这么做？
What did he think he was going to gain?
他认为他会得到什么？
Was it sexual?
是性的吗？
Were you turning him on to such an extent that he couldn't stand it?
你是否让他兴奋到让他无法忍受的程度？
What was it?
那是什么？
Well, personally, I can't-- I thought he was bored.
嗯，就我个人而言，我不能——我以为他很无聊。
Oh.
哦。
Jessica Leeds Nothing happening, so let's grab a little pussy here.
杰西卡·利兹 没什么事发生，所以我们来抓点小猫吧。
This is such an insight to me.
这对我来说是一个深刻的见解。
This is such an insight.
这是这样的见解。
Got it.
明白了。
But it goes along with his Hollywood tape.
但这与他的好莱坞磁带是一致的。
No, no. E.
不，不。 E.
Jean Carroll Was he reading at all beforehand?
吉恩·卡罗尔 他事先读过书吗？
Did he have a book?
他有书吗？
No. E.
没有。E。
Jean Carroll Who'd get on a plane in 1980 without a ton of magazines, newspapers, or The Wall Street Journal?
Jean Carroll 在 1980 年，谁会在没有大量杂志、报纸或《华尔街日报》的情况下登上飞机呢？
Exactly.
正是如此。
E.
E.
Jean Carroll And he had nothing to read?
让·卡罗尔 他没有什么可读的吗？
No. E.
没有。E。
Jean Carroll You thought he was bored.
吉恩·卡罗尔 你以为他很无聊。
That is an insight that I think-- it really sends it home.
我认为这是一种洞察力——它确实让我们明白了这一点。
Because some people have claimed he does it for power.
因为有些人声称他这样做是为了权力。
I don't think it has anything to do with power.
我不认为这和权力有什么关系。
Well, it could be.
嗯，可能是这样。
But I really just chalked it off to him being bored.
但我真的只是把这归因于他感到无聊。
So Trump grabs one woman, then he grabs the next woman, and the next woman.
所以特朗普抓住了一个女人，然后他抓住了下一个女人，然后是下一个女人。
And pretty soon, we start thinking Trump grabbing women is normal.
很快，我们开始认为特朗普抢女人是正常的。
Then Trump grabbing women becomes so normal, it's boring.
然后特朗普抢女人就变得很正常，很无聊。
It is old news, and there's so much that he's done.
这已经是旧闻了，而且他已经做了很多事情。
But Jessica, it's not old news.
但是杰西卡，这并不是什么旧闻。
We're the most current thing.
我们是最新的。
We tried to warn people.
我们试图警告人们。
We tried to warn America this is who he was.
我们试图警告美国，他就是这样的人。
And so now we seem to have been forgotten.
所以现在我们似乎已经被遗忘了。
We've been pushed-- well, we've been ignored.
我们被推动——好吧，我们被忽视了。
And this drives me crazy.
这让我发疯。
This is why we're doing this.
这就是我们这样做的原因。
Women like Jessica and I, we'll never forget.
像杰西卡和我这样的女人，我们永远不会忘记。
How often did you think about this between then and 2015 when he came to the fore again?
从那时到2015年他再次脱颖而出时，您有多少次想到过这个问题？
I probably would not have had it so emblazoned in my mind if it hadn't been for the gala at Saks Fifth Avenue.
如果不是萨克斯第五大道的盛典，我可能不会如此铭记它。
The gala at Saks Fifth Avenue.
盛典在萨克斯第五大道举行。
This is a year or two after the flight.
这是飞行后一两年。
And it's a benefit for the Humane Society of New York and a few other charities.
这对纽约人道协会和其他一些慈善机构来说也是一项福利。
Jessica is the assistant to the president of the Humane Society and is handing out table assignments.
杰西卡是人道协会主席的助理，负责分配餐桌。
I had this fabulous dress.
我有这件漂亮的衣服。
E.
E.
Jean Carroll Oh, what was it?
吉恩·卡罗尔 哦，那是什么？
Let me hear.
让我听听。
Mary McFadden-- E.
玛丽·麦克法登——E.
Jean Carroll Oh, I love Mary McFadden.
琼·卡罗尔哦，我爱玛丽·麦克法登。
--pleated, all these little pleats in a taxicab yellow.
——褶皱，所有这些小褶皱都是出租车黄色的。
And I show up at Saks.
我出现在萨克斯百货公司。
And I've got this great dress on.
我穿上了这件很棒的衣服。
And I'm doing my thing.
我正在做我的事情。
And I'm meeting Geoffrey Beene.
我要去见杰弗里·比恩。
I'm meeting Bill Blass.
我要去见比尔·布拉斯。
I'm meeting all of these designers for this party.
我要在这个聚会上见到所有这些设计师。
And in fact, Mary McFadden came up and looked at me, and said, that's my dress.
事实上，玛丽·麦克法登走过来看着我，说，那是我的衣服。
And I said, yes, it is.
我说，是的，是的。
So it was really a fabulous evening.
所以这真是一个美妙的夜晚。
And then Trump with his wife Ivana came up.
然后特朗普和他的妻子伊万娜出现了。
She was pregnant, very pregnant.
她怀孕了，非常怀孕。
And he looked at me when I handed him his table assignment.
当我把他的餐桌分配给他时，他看着我。
And I'm looking at him, thinking, you're the asshole from the airplane.
我看着他，心想，你就是飞机上的混蛋。
I remember you.
我记得你。
The future president of the United States remembers Jessica too.
未来的美国总统也记得杰西卡。
And he looked at me, and he said, "I remember you.
他看着我，说道：“我记得你。
You're the cunt from the airplane."
你就是飞机上的那个混蛋。”
E.
E.
Jean Carroll is a journalist and the author of the memoir What Do We Need Men For?
吉恩·卡罗尔是一名记者，也是回忆录《我们需要男人做什么？》的作者。
Her series of conversations with women who accused Donald Trump of sexual assault is at the atlantic.com website.
atlantic.com 网站上有她与指控唐纳德·特朗普性侵犯的女性的一系列对话。
It's called, "I Moved on Her Very Heavily." Her story was produced for our show by Susan Burton.
这就是所谓的“我对她非常着迷”。她的故事是由苏珊·伯顿为我们的节目制作的。
Credits Ira Glass Our program was produced today by Alex Blumberg and myself with Diane Cook, Jane Marie, Starlee Kine, and Sarah Koenig.
图片来源 Ira Glass 我们今天的节目由 Alex Blumberg 和我本人以及 Diane Cook、Jane Marie、Starlee Kine 和 Sarah Koenig 制作。
Senior producer for today's show is Julie Snyder.
今天节目的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
Production on the rerun from Matt Tierney, Stowe Nelson, and Alaa Mostafa.
重播版由马特·蒂尔尼、斯托·尼尔森和阿拉·莫斯塔法制作。
Special thanks today to Greg Flannery, John Kieswetter, Rick Pender, Joe Moss, Adam Rosenberg, Sally Ford, Bill Wood, Robin Wood, Scott Gamfer and the Cincinnati Historical Society.
今天特别感谢 Greg Flannery、John Kieswetter、Rick Pender、Joe Moss、Adam Rosenberg、Sally Ford、Bill Wood、Robin Wood、Scott Gamfer 和辛辛那提历史学会。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder Mr. Torey Malatia, who reminds you--
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生，他提醒您——
Until next time, take care of yourself and each other.
直到下次，照顾好自己和彼此。
Well said.
说得好。
I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life.
我是艾拉·格拉斯，下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。