792: When to Leave - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #792 | March 3, 2023 792: When to Leave Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 792 集 | 2023 年 3 月 3 日 792：何时离开 注意：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Nancy Updike From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
序言：序言 来自 WBEZ 芝加哥的 Nancy Updike，这就是《美国生活》。
I'm Nancy Updike, sitting in for Ira Glass.
我是南希·厄普代克，代理艾拉·格拉斯。
So this video, it's from the front lines of the war in Ukraine.
这段视频来自乌克兰战争前线。
It's from a few weeks ago and it's in Bakhmut, which is a city in the eastern part of the country.
这是几周前的照片，地点是巴赫穆特，这是该国东部的一座城市。
And the video is shot by this guy who's part of a team of volunteers who help people get out.
这段视频是由这个人拍摄的，他是帮助人们逃生的志愿者团队的一员。
He's filming it on a camera that's inside his front coat pocket or something.
他正在用放在他前大衣口袋之类的东西里的相机拍摄这一切。
Yeah, I can tell it's kind of herky-jerky because he's running.
是的，我可以看出这有点不稳定，因为他在跑步。
Now he's walking, actually.
现在他实际上正在走路。
There are low buildings all around, like, three or four stories.
周围都是低矮的建筑，三四层的样子。
Evacuatziyu.
撤离。
Valerie Kipnis No cars-- it's totally empty.
瓦莱丽·基普尼斯（Valerie Kipnis） 没有汽车——这里完全是空的。
All right, I'm going to stop here for some quick background.
好吧，我要先简单介绍一下背景知识。
Valerie, who's been talking me through the video, is my colleague, Valerie Kipnis, a producer at the show.
瓦莱丽（Valerie）在视频中与我交谈，她是我的同事瓦莱丽·基普尼斯（Valerie Kipnis），她是节目的制片人。
She speaks Russian, understands Ukrainian.
她会说俄语，懂乌克兰语。
She has been watching a lot of these videos, which are a genre in this war.
她已经看了很多这样的视频，这些视频是这场战争的一个流派。
In Bakhmut, the fighting has been terrible for months.
在巴赫穆特，几个月来战斗一直很惨烈。
The city may already have fallen by the time this airs.
当节目播出时，这座城市可能已经沦陷了。
Tens of thousands of people left the city in earlier waves.
早些时候，数万人离开了这座城市。
The deputy prime minister of Ukraine said the other week, quote, "If you are rational, law abiding, and patriotic citizens, you should leave the city immediately."
乌克兰副总理上周表示，“如果你是理性、守法、爱国的公民，你应该立即离开这座城市。”
But at every front line, in every war, if it's a city, there are people holding out.
但在每一个前线，在每场战争中，如果是一座城市，就会有人坚守。
In Bakhmut, maybe several thousand, many elderly or disabled people, those caring for them, also diehards.
在巴赫穆特，可能有几千人，许多老人或残疾人，以及那些照顾他们的人，也是顽固分子。
And so ordinary people, like the guy who shot this video, have taken it upon themselves to put on bulletproof vests, somehow get into Bakhmut, and get people out, take them to a refugee center where they'll be safe.
因此，普通人，比如拍摄这段视频的人，自己穿上了防弹背心，以某种方式进入巴赫穆特，把人们救出来，带他们到安全的难民中心。
All right, back to this video that Valerie is showing me.
好吧，回到瓦莱丽给我看的这段视频。
The volunteer, a guy named Kuba, is in Bakhmut, looking for an older woman, who seems to be one of the last people left in this one apartment building.
这名志愿者名叫库巴，正在巴赫穆特寻找一位年长的妇女，她似乎是这栋公寓楼里最后剩下的人之一。
OK, he's running up the stairs.
好吧，他正在跑上楼梯。
And you can see this building is totally destroyed.
你可以看到这座建筑被完全摧毁了。
You can barely see it but it has a huge hole in it.
你几乎看不到它，但它上面有一个大洞。
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Valerie Kipnis He's shouting, evacuation, evacuators.
[俄语演讲] Valerie Kipnis 他在喊叫，疏散，疏散人员。
I see.
我懂了。
Valerie Kipnis And so he's trying to shout, hey--
瓦莱丽·基普尼斯（Valerie Kipnis）所以他试图喊叫，嘿——
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Valerie Kipnis --come out.
[俄语演讲] Valerie Kipnis ——出来吧。
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Kuba Stasiak [RUSSIAN SPEECH]
[俄语演讲] Kuba Stasiak [俄语演讲]
And he's saying, hey, I'm a volunteer.
他说，嘿，我是一名志愿者。
My name's Kuba.
我叫库巴。
I'm here to take you out.
我是来带你出去的。
I'm here to take you to peace.
我来这里是为了带你走向平静。
And she's like, I'm not ready.
她说，我还没准备好。
I'm not ready.
我还没准备好。
I'm not packed.
我没打包。
And he's like, there's lots of bombs.
他说，有很多炸弹。
We have to go.
我们得走了。
There's clearly no heat.
明显没有热度啊
She's in a coat and a hat, and she's got her glasses.
她穿着外套，戴着帽子，戴着眼镜。
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Valerie Kipnis She's like, what do I take with me?
[俄语演讲] Valerie Kipnis 她问，我该带什么？
And he's like, passports and pictures of loved ones.
他就像，护照和亲人的照片。
That's it, let's go.
就是这样，我们走吧。
And she's saying, I need to pack grapes, and maybe some sort of pancakes, or chocolate.
她说，我需要打包葡萄，也许还有某种煎饼或巧克力。
And he's like, there's going to be everything there.
他说，那里什么都有。
Come.
来。
And then the video jumps ahead, and suddenly, they are outside walking.
然后视频跳到前面，突然，他们在外面散步。
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Kuba Stasiak [RUSSIAN SPEECH]
[俄语演讲] Kuba Stasiak [俄语演讲]
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Valerie Kipnis She goes, I got less ready than I would have if there was a fire.
[俄语演讲] Valerie Kipnis 她说，我的准备程度比发生火灾时的准备要少。
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Valerie Kipnis And she goes, and my shoes are all broken.
[俄语演讲] Valerie Kipnis 她走了，我的鞋子都坏了。
They're all falling apart.
他们都崩溃了。
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Valerie Kipnis What am I going to wear there?
[俄语演讲] Valerie Kipnis 我去那里穿什么？
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Valerie Kipnis And he's like, there will be everything there.
[俄语演讲] Valerie Kipnis 他说，那里什么都有。
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Valerie Kipnis There will be everything.
[俄语演讲] Valerie Kipnis 一切都会有的。
And how many of his videos have you watched?
您看过他的多少视频？
Oh, man, dozens?
哦，伙计，几十个？
Over 100?
超过100？
Nancy Updike These evacuations are a whole thing that's happening.
南希·厄普代克（Nancy Updike） 这些疏散是正在发生的一件事。
There are loose networks of people who do it.
这样做的人有松散的网络。
There's no one organization behind it, but evacuators just go in, like this guy, Kuba.
背后没有任何组织，但疏散人员就进去了，就像库巴这个人一样。
Sometimes he gets into town and all he has is a name, maybe from a family member who contacted him, like, can you get out my grandma or my cousin?
有时他进城后，他所拥有的只是一个名字，也许是联系他的家庭成员的名字，比如，你能把我的奶奶或我的表弟叫出来吗？
Maybe he has an address if the person is still there.
如果那个人还在的话，也许他有地址。
And if Kuba can't find it or he's running out of time, he just jogs through the streets, calling their name out.
如果库巴找不到它或者他的时间不多了，他就会慢跑穿过街道，喊出他们的名字。
Lilia!
莉莉娅！
Nancy Updike The problem is, people don't always want to go.
南希·厄普代克 问题是，人们并不总是想去。
A lot of people he meets don't want to go.
他遇到的很多人都不愿意去。
They're not ready, or they don't want to be rescued.
他们还没有准备好，或者他们不想被拯救。
Some don't want to leave property, or they don't want to abandon other family members who won't leave.
有些人不想留下财产，或者他们不想抛弃其他不肯离开的家庭成员。
Some think the worst is over or will soon be over, and that once one side or the other wins, everything will calm down, and they'll just learn to live with the outcome, whatever that is.
有些人认为最坏的情况已经过去或很快就会过去，一旦一方获胜，一切都会平静下来，他们就会学会接受结果，无论结果是什么。
Valerie's been talking with this guy, Kuba Stasiak, who works in the east, including Bakhmut.
瓦莱丽（Valerie）一直在与库巴·斯塔西亚克（Kuba Stasiak）交谈，他在东部工作，其中包括巴克穆特（Bakhmut）。
He's a young man, 28.
他是个年轻人，28岁。
He's Polish.
他是波兰人。
His group has people from all over, including Ukrainians.
他的团队成员来自世界各地，其中包括乌克兰人。
Kuba says when he's trying to persuade people to go, sometimes maps help.
库巴说，当他试图说服人们去时，有时地图会有所帮助。
I show them that Russians are pushing from every single direction that they can, and in a couple of days there will be nothing.
我向他们展示俄罗斯人正从各个方向竭尽全力地推进，几天之内就会一无所获。
And that on the next day, there may be-- I mean, there is a risk that tomorrow we won't reach their house because Russians will cut off the last road.
第二天，我的意思是，明天我们可能无法到达他们的家，因为俄罗斯人将切断最后一条路。
Kuba told Valerie that when he started doing this almost a year ago, he wanted to convince every person he talked to to leave.
库巴告诉瓦莱丽，当他大约一年前开始这样做时，他想说服每个与他交谈过的人离开。
But he's gotten very used to hearing no.
但他已经习惯了听到“不”的声音。
Because back then, I was trying to convince anyone, anytime.
因为那时，我试图随时随地说服任何人。
And right now, when there is a heavy shelling and somebody is telling me to, pardon my French, [BLEEP].
现在，当发生猛烈炮击时，有人告诉我，请原谅我的法语，[BLEEP]。
I'm just, like, whatever, of course.
当然，我只是，无论如何。
Yeah.
是的。
Sure, you can't help anybody, especially when they are just hostile towards you.
当然，你无法帮助任何人，尤其是当他们对你怀有敌意时。
You can't do nothing.
你不能什么都不做。
And it's naive to think, to believe that you can, because you can't.
因为你做不到而认为你可以，这是天真的想法。
You just can't save the whole world, that's what I'm trying to say.
你无法拯救整个世界，这就是我想说的。
Even some yeses, he's found, are kind of a no. That woman he evacuated, who wanted to pack up grapes and pancakes, Valerie says he took her to a refugee center in a city called Kramatorsk.
他发现，即使是有些“是”，也算是“不”。瓦莱丽说，他疏散的那个女人想要打包葡萄和煎饼，他把她带到了克拉马托尔斯克市的一个难民中心。
It's about an hour away from her home, and she was so upset, Kuba told me.
库巴告诉我，这里距离她家大约一个小时路程，她非常沮丧。
She wasn't happy about the leave.
她对这次休假并不满意。
She asked me, I mean, why did I took her to such a wild place?
她问我，我是说，我为什么带她去这么荒凉的地方？
She had this perspective that I, I don't know, tricked her or something, so she was upset.
她有这样的观点，我不知道，欺骗了她什么的，所以她很沮丧。
She was telling me that she wants to go back.
她告诉我她想回去。
And I was like, but the city is dying.
我当时想，但这座城市正在消亡。
City is kaput.
城市已经卡普特。
And she was like, OK, so I will die with the city.
她说，好吧，所以我会和这座城市一起死去。
And I was like, OK.
我当时想，好吧。
End of conversation.
谈话结束。
What can I do?
我能做些什么？
And they kind of lost touch for a little bit, and it turns out that she ended up having her relatives send her back East, to a Russian occupied area, where maybe it's not the front line, but it's due to be dangerous soon.
他们有点失去联系了，结果她最终让亲戚把她送回东部，去俄罗斯占领的地区，那里也许不是前线，但很快就会很危险。
And Kuba, after he heard that, he went back to her house just to look at it.
而库巴，听了之后，就回她家来看了一下。
And he saw--
他看到——
That's right.
没错。
And he went to look at it and he saw that, specifically, her apartment had been destroyed by another strike.
他去看了看，发现她的公寓被另一次罢工摧毁了。
And I think he felt sort of this sense of validation, like, you would have been killed if I had not taken you out.
我认为他感受到了一种被认可的感觉，就像，如果我没有把你带出去，你就会被杀。
But she was still sort of unhappy and ended up going back to an occupied region.
但她还是有点不高兴，最后还是回到了被占领的地区。
I think she meant that it wasn't home.
我想她的意思是那不是家。
That's what I really think she meant.
我真的认为她就是这个意思。
But this show is not going to be about nos or yeses.
但这个节目不会是关于“不”或“是”的。
It's about people weighing when to go.
这是关于人们权衡何时去的问题。
And one reason Kuba and others go back to the same city again and again is that sometimes a person who's been a no, no, no, no, no, for months, is suddenly a yes, please.
库巴和其他人一次又一次回到同一个城市的原因之一是，有时一个几个月来一直说“不，不，不，不，不”的人突然会说“是，请”。
It is time.
是时候了。
Valerie managed to reach someone Kuba helped get out of Bakhmut two months ago.
两个月前，瓦莱丽设法联系了库巴帮助离开巴克穆特的人。
That man, Roman, had been living there with his parents, who were in their 70s.
这名男子名叫罗曼，一直和他 70 多岁的父母住在那里。
And he told Valerie what changed for him because he actually first met Kuba months ago and was like, nah, we're good, even though things were bad.
他告诉瓦莱丽他发生了什么变化，因为他几个月前第一次见到库巴，当时的感觉是，不，我们很好，尽管事情很糟糕。
I almost got killed nine times in Bakhmut.
我在巴克穆特有九次差点被杀。
I got caught in gunfire.
我被枪声夹住了。
I got caught in explosions in the center of the city while I was crossing the Nikolaevsky Bridge, even there I almost died.
当我穿过尼古拉耶夫斯基大桥时，我在市中心遭遇爆炸，差点就死了。
And in a home I almost died.
在家里我差点就死了。
It was really serious.
这真的很严重。
I'm telling you, nine times.
我告诉你，九次。
I was even talking to Ukrainian military and I was telling them, I kind of got used to it already.
我什至与乌克兰军方交谈，我告诉他们，我已经习惯了。
And they said, that's a bad habit.
他们说，这是一个坏习惯。
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Valerie Kipnis And then things got worse, and worse, and worse, and all of a sudden, the telephone wires by our house were all dangling.
[俄语演讲] Valerie Kipnis 然后事情变得越来越糟，越来越糟，越来越糟，突然之间，我们家的电话线都悬空了。
And then I saw that there was gunfire on the houses, on the roads, on the fences.
然后我看到房屋、道路、栅栏上都有枪声。
And then I just went outside of my house and I just saw the bullets ricocheting.
然后我刚走出家门，就看到子弹弹跳。
And I just thought, that's it.
我只是想，就是这样。
I don't think we'll make it.
我认为我们不会成功。
And I started talking to my parents, I just don't think we'll make it.
我开始和我的父母交谈，我只是认为我们不会成功。
And I told them, we got to do something.
我告诉他们，我们必须做点什么。
It's either we leave, or we die.
要么我们离开，要么我们死。
They decided to go.
他们决定走。
And there's a video of this evacuation, too, Roman and his parents.
罗曼和他的父母也有这次疏散的视频。
Roman's father seems very frail.
罗曼的父亲看起来很虚弱。
In the video, one of the evacuators is helping his father shuffle backward over this metal beam that's a makeshift bridge over a river.
在视频中，一名疏散人员正在帮助他的父亲向后拖着脚步跨过这条河上的临时桥金属梁。
The father is holding on and moving very slowly.
父亲扶着他，动作非常缓慢。
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Valerie Kipnis And there was an explosion.
[俄语演讲] Valerie Kipnis 然后发生了爆炸。
It was all black, and it was just like, the house over, my neighbor's house, that it fell, the missile.
一切都是黑色的，就像是，房子倒塌了，我邻居的房子，它倒塌了，导弹。
And then, when we got out of there, I just said, wow, look how quiet it is.
然后，当我们离开那里时，我只是说，哇，看看这里多安静。
You can actually be here.
你其实可以在这里。
You could just sit here and relax, and it was just like, it was where we lived that they were attacking.
你可以坐在这里放松，就好像他们正在攻击我们住的地方。
And then, when I got to Kramatorsk, I started looking around and I saw civilization, and light, electricity, and the trolley buses working.
然后，当我到达克拉马托尔斯克时，我开始环顾四周，看到了文明、灯光、电力和运转的无轨电车。
And I just felt this sense of elation, a smile cross my face, or something.
我只是感觉到一种兴高采烈的感觉，脸上掠过一丝微笑，或者其他什么。
Actually, the first time that they took these cookies out onto the table, I just-- I felt so happy.
事实上，当他们第一次把这些饼干拿出来放在桌子上时，我只是——我感到很高兴。
It had been so long since I had even seen them.
我已经很久没有见到他们了。
Do you understand?
你明白吗？
I hadn't seen loaves of bread.
我没见过面包。
Sure, I had coffee, but still, that was hard to come by, and cookies.
当然，我喝了咖啡，但仍然很难得到，还有饼干。
And I had forgotten what that tasted like, and it just felt so amazing to have them finally.
我已经忘记了那是什么味道，但最终拥有它们的感觉真是太棒了。
But to be totally honest, I still yearn to go to my place, to my home.
但说实话，我还是渴望回到我的地方，回到我的家。
Today's show-- "When To Leave." How do you know when it's right to make a decision that is so often full of doubt, guilt, consequences for other people?
今天的节目——《何时离开》。你怎么知道什么时候做出正确的决定，而这个决定常常充满怀疑、内疚和对其他人的影响？
And even afterward, sometimes forever afterward, regret and longing, and second guesses.
甚至事后，有时是永远的事后，后悔和渴望，以及重新猜测。
We have two stories today with high stakes and complicated choices.
今天我们有两个故事，风险很高，选择也很复杂。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One: First, Do No Harm Nancy Updike Act One, First, Do No Harm.
第一幕：首先，不要伤害 南希·厄普代克 第一幕，首先，不要伤害。
Let's start right in, with a calm, rational person assessing a new reality, getting a feel for what it means, and deciding what to do.
让我们从一个冷静、理性的人开始，评估一个新的现实，感受它的含义，并决定做什么。
Miki Meek reports.
米基·米克报道。
Amelia Huntsberger has a story she tells about what it's like to work at a small, rural hospital.
阿米莉亚·亨茨伯格 (Amelia Huntsberger) 有一个故事，讲述了在一家小型乡村医院工作的感受。
She's an OB-GYN in Northern Idaho, in a place called Sandpoint.
她是爱达荷州北部桑德波因特的一名妇产科医生。
And early on, she got called down to the emergency room to examine a woman.
早些时候，她被叫到急诊室检查一名妇女。
The woman had passed out.
那个女人已经昏过去了。
She was hemorrhaging a lot of blood.
她流了很多血。
She was miscarrying.
她流产了。
I took her to the operating room and I transfused a bunch of blood products.
我带她去了手术室，输了一堆血制品。
And her labs were starting to be a bit abnormal, and I asked for the lab to get me platelets.
她的实验室开始有点异常，我要求实验室给我拿血小板。
The nurse supervisor who was on that night said, oh, well, we don't have those.
那天晚上在场的护士主管说，哦，好吧，我们没有这些。
And I said, oh, we don't have any platelets?
我说，哦，我们没有血小板吗？
Oh, no, we don't have those in the blood bank here.
哦，不，我们这里的血库里没有这些。
Oh.
哦。
So she told me that we could get them from Spokane.
所以她告诉我我们可以从斯波坎拿到它们。
And I was like, great.
我当时想，太棒了。
Well, let's activate that right away.
好吧，让我们立即激活它。
And she said, oh, OK.
她说，哦，好吧。
Yeah, they come by taxi.
是的，他们是乘出租车来的。
Like yellow cab taxi?
喜欢黄色出租车吗？
Amelia Huntsberger Right?
阿米莉亚·亨茨伯格 对吗？
And I said, really?
我说，真的吗？
Seriously?
严重地？
Blood products are going to be put in a cab and then come to the hospital from Spokane, which is an hour and a half away?
血制品要装上出租车，然后从斯波坎来医院，一个半小时的路程？
And we were in the winter then.
那时我们正处于冬天。
She said, yeah, they'll come by cab.
她说，是的，他们会坐出租车来。
Most doctors fresh off years of training at fancy urban hospitals might look at an experience like this and want to run from it.
大多数刚刚在高档城市医院接受过多年培训的医生可能会看到这样的经历并想逃离它。
But for Amelia, this was her plan, her first choice.
但对于阿米莉亚来说，这就是她的计划，她的第一选择。
She grew up in a place like Sandpoint-- beautiful, rural, surrounded by mountains.
她在像桑德波因特这样的地方长大——美丽、乡村、四面环山。
She did her first delivery in middle school.
她在中学时第一次分娩。
It was a baby lamb.
那是一只小羊羔。
She used to help her dad out during lambing season.
她过去常常在产羔季节帮助她的父亲。
And all through med school she was like, why shouldn't people in rural places get the best care?
在读医学院的整个过程中，她一直在想，为什么农村地区的人们不能得到最好的护理呢？
Amelia is someone who generally takes stuff on if it needs doing.
阿米莉亚通常会在需要做的事情上承担起责任。
Whenever there's some unpaid committee job no one wants, Amelia signs up.
每当有一些没有人想要的无薪委员会工作时，阿米莉亚就会报名。
Not in an ego way, it's more like, why wouldn't you do that?
不是以自我的方式，更像是，你为什么不这样做呢？
Amelia's husband, Vince, he works at the same hospital.
阿米莉亚的丈夫文斯在同一家医院工作。
He's an ER doctor and he also grew up in a small town.
他是一名急诊室医生，也在一个小镇长大。
They met in medical school and wanted to settle in a place like this because they knew rural hospitals desperately need doctors.
他们在医学院相识，想在这样的地方定居，因为他们知道乡村医院迫切需要医生。
Yes, practicing medicine here in Sandpoint means platelets arrive by taxi.
是的，在桑德波因特行医意味着血小板可以通过出租车到达。
But also, Amelia said, you really get to know your patients.
而且，阿米莉亚说，你可以真正了解你的病人。
It's nice running into them all over town.
在城里到处都能遇到他们真是太好了。
Half of the day is people that I know, who I'm delighted, like, what are the updates?
一天的一半时间都是我认识的人，我很高兴的人，比如，有什么更新吗？
When's your granddaughter coming home?
你孙女什么时候回家？
When somebody comes up to me in the grocery store and wants to ask a question about vaginal discharge, that's not awesome.
当有人在杂货店找到我并想问有关阴道分泌物的问题时，这可不是什么好事情。
But when a patient comes up to me and wants to show me her grandchild who I delivered, that's really delightful.
但当一位病人来找我并想向我展示我接生的她的孙子时，那真是令人高兴。
Amelia's whole life is in Sandpoint.
阿米莉亚的一生都在桑德波因特度过。
She and Vince have raised all three of their kids here.
她和文斯在这里抚养了他们的三个孩子。
Recently, her parents moved here, too.
最近，她的父母也搬到了这里。
But I've been talking to Amelia for months, over the phone and in person, not because she loves the place, but because she thinks it might be time to leave.
但我已经和阿米莉亚通过电话和面对面交谈了几个月，不是因为她喜欢这个地方，而是因为她认为可能是时候离开了。
Amelia did not see herself as an abortion care provider.
阿米莉亚并不认为自己是堕胎护理提供者。
She's a general OB-GYN, so she sees everyone from teenagers to 90-year-olds.
她是一名普通妇产科医生，所以她见过从青少年到90岁的所有人。
She does pap smears, prenatal care, breast exams, STIs, prescribes birth control, delivers babies.
她进行子宫颈抹片检查、产前护理、乳房检查、性传播感染、开节育处方、接生婴儿。
She's got the bulletin board to prove it.
她有布告栏来证明这一点。
And right now, there are lots of stories about pregnant people dealing with the fall of Roe versus Wade and changes in state laws.
现在，有很多关于孕妇处理罗伊诉韦德案的失败和州法律变化的故事。
But this story is about their doctors.
但这个故事是关于他们的医生的。
I started calling OB-GYNs when the Supreme Court overturned Roe because I wanted to know what their jobs are like now and how they're changing.
当最高法院推翻罗伊案时，我开始给妇产科医生打电话，因为我想知道他们的工作现在怎么样以及他们正在发生怎样的变化。
And I started hearing about doctors who were thinking of leaving their states because of new laws that criminalize a whole range of common OB-GYN care.
我开始听说一些医生正在考虑离开自己的州，因为新的法律将一系列常见的妇产科护理定为犯罪。
Idaho is one of those states.
爱达荷州就是其中之一。
It passed some of the most restrictive abortion laws in the country.
它通过了该国一些最严格的堕胎法。
No exceptions for the health of a pregnant person, no exceptions to save the life of a pregnant person.
为了孕妇的健康，无一例外，为了挽救孕妇的生命，无一例外。
Here's how state senator, Todd Lakey, one of the sponsors of the bill that would soon become law, talked about what should happen in the case of, for instance, a serious pregnancy complication.
州参议员托德·莱基（Todd Lakey）是该法案的发起人之一，该法案很快将成为法律，他谈到了在出现严重妊娠并发症等情况时应该采取什么措施。
If the decision was based solely on a question of some type of health, then you're talking about taking the life of the unborn child.
如果这个决定仅仅基于某种健康问题，那么你所说的就是夺取未出生孩子的生命。
So that weighs more heavily than simply health.
因此，这比单纯的健康更重要。
Go ahead.
前进。
Green Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and just a follow up.
格林 谢谢主席先生，我只是跟进一下。
So just, I guess, a yes or no, the health of the woman is irrelevant?
所以，我想，是或否，女性的健康无关紧要吗？
Yes or no.
是还是不是。
I would say it weighs less, yes, than the life of the child.
我想说，是的，它比孩子的生命还轻。
Lots of people had concerns about the laws.
许多人对法律表示担忧。
Even the governor, who is anti-abortion, sent a letter to the state senate saying that some parts of these bills would, quote, "In short order, be proven both unconstitutional and unwise." He signed them into law anyway.
就连反堕胎的州长也致函州参议院，称这些法案的某些部分将“很快被证明既违宪又不明智”。不管怎样，他还是将它们签署为法律。
Idaho's new laws are also some of the most punitive toward doctors.
爱达荷州的新法律也是对医生最具惩罚性的法律之一。
They cover any pregnancy that has a, quote, "fetal heartbeat." Though in the early stages, it's not a heartbeat, in a normal sense-- it's electrical activity in some tissue that will eventually become the heart.
它们涵盖任何有“胎儿心跳”的怀孕。尽管在早期阶段，这不是正常意义上的心跳，而是某些组织中的电活动，最终将成为心脏。
The sound you hear with an ultrasound machine?
您用超声波机器听到的声音？
It's created by the machine.
它是由机器创建的。
But that counts as far as the law is concerned.
但就法律而言，这很重要。
If a doctor does anything to terminate a pregnancy with a fetal heartbeat, they can be charged with a felony and imprisoned for up to five years, even if, say, they have a patient who is miscarrying, bleeding uncontrollably, and they're trying to save their life.
如果医生采取任何措施在胎儿心跳的情况下终止妊娠，他们可能会被指控犯有重罪并被判处最高五年的监禁，即使他们有一个流产、失血过多的病人，并且他们正在努力挽救自己的生命。
Also, there's this phrase in Idaho's new laws, "affirmative defense." What this means is, in theory, the laws do allow for abortions in the case of rape, incest, or to save the life of a pregnant person.
此外，爱达荷州的新法律中有这样一句话：“平权辩护”。这意味着，从理论上讲，法律确实允许在强奸、乱伦或挽救孕妇生命的情况下进行堕胎。
But if a doctor does that, they can be arrested, and have to prove in court with, say a report from the police attesting to rape, or somehow prove that their patient would have died, and a jury would have to agree.
但如果医生这样做，他们可能会被逮捕，并且必须在法庭上证明，比如警方的报告证明强奸，或者以某种方式证明他们的病人会死亡，而陪审团必须同意。
Under Idaho's new laws, it's kind of like doctors are assumed guilty, instead of assumed innocent until proven guilty.
根据爱达荷州的新法律，这有点像医生被假定有罪，而不是在被证明有罪之前被假定无罪。
It doesn't sound legal, but it is.
这听起来不合法，但确实如此。
When the abortion ban went into effect, after Roe was overturned, Amelia's first thought was not, we got to leave Sandpoint.
当堕胎禁令生效、罗伊被推翻后，阿米莉亚的第一个想法不是，我们必须离开桑德波因特。
She was not at that stage.
她还没有到那个阶段。
The stage she was at was, let's fight.
她所处的阶段是，我们战斗吧。
If enough doctors speak out, if people understand the reality, they will understand the dangers of these laws and they'll want to change them.
如果有足够多的医生发声，如果人们了解现实，他们就会了解这些法律的危险，并且会想要改变它们。
Amelia was already on a committee tracking maternal deaths.
阿米莉亚已经是一个追踪孕产妇死亡情况的委员会的成员。
The state hadn't had one of those, she helped create one.
该州没有其中之一，她帮助创建了一个。
She was also heading up the state chapter of the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecologists, ACOG.
她还是美国妇产科医师学会 (ACOG) 州分会的负责人。
No one else raised their hand to do it, but Amelia did.
没有人举手，但阿米莉亚举手了。
So naturally, when a lawsuit was filed against one of the new abortion laws in Idaho, Amelia was part of a coalition trying to change these laws.
因此，很自然地，当爱达荷州针对一项新堕胎法提起诉讼时，阿米莉亚是试图改变这些法律的联盟的一员。
She knew the lawyers needed testimony from OB-GYNs laying out specific emergency medical care they'd been providing for years, that now, under the new laws, was criminal.
她知道律师需要妇产科医生的证词，列出他们多年来提供的具体紧急医疗护理，而现在，根据新法律，这种护理是犯罪行为。
So I think, OK.
所以我想，好吧。
Well, I'm going to reach out to as many OB-GYNs as I can think of and have contact information to, and just see if anybody would be willing to make a declaration.
好吧，我将联系尽可能多的妇产科医生，并提供联系信息，看看是否有人愿意发表声明。
And then I kind of realize, I myself have provided care like this.
然后我意识到，我自己也提供过这样的护理。
So Amelia, who had started out trying to find other OB-GYNs to write about their experiences to help change these new laws, instead started writing about herself, her own medical practice.
因此，阿米莉亚一开始试图寻找其他妇产科医生来写下他们的经验，以帮助改变这些新法律，但她开始写她自己，她自己的医疗实践。
She'd never thought of herself in the same category as providers of so-called elective abortions, what happens in abortion clinics.
她从未想过自己与堕胎诊所中所谓的选择性堕胎的提供者属于同一类别。
She thought of that as a different thing, even though she'd written the word abortion in her patients' medical charts for years.
她认为这是另一回事，尽管她多年来一直在患者的病历中写下堕胎这个词。
The medical term for miscarriages before 20 weeks is spontaneous abortion.
20周前流产的医学术语是自然流产。
About one in five pregnancies end this way, so she treats patients for this all the time.
大约五分之一的怀孕会以这种方式结束，因此她一直为此治疗患者。
Anti-abortion rhetoric had so effectively separated abortion from health care that, in a way, they'd gotten separated in Amelia's head, too.
反堕胎言论如此有效地将堕胎与医疗保健分开，在某种程度上，它们在阿米莉亚的脑海中也被分开了。
Amelia signed her declaration and submitted it.
阿米莉亚签署并提交了她的声明。
Her written experiences, and those of other OB-GYNs, it all made a difference in the strictness of the law, a small but significant one.
她的书面经验以及其他妇产科医生的经验都对法律的严格性产生了影响，虽然很小，但意义重大。
The day before the trigger laws in Idaho were about to go into effect, a federal judge agreed to allow emergency abortion procedures that go through actual emergency rooms, for now.
在爱达荷州的触发法即将生效的前一天，一名联邦法官同意暂时允许通过实际急诊室进行紧急堕胎程序。
Yeah, tremendous relief, hopeful.
是的，巨大的解脱，充满希望。
That felt like, OK, somebody is really seeing this with a clear eye and a rational mind, and is like, well, obviously this doesn't make sense.
感觉就像，好吧，有人真的以清晰的眼睛和理性的头脑看到了这一点，并且就像，嗯，显然这没有意义。
Every other part of the laws still went into effect the very next day.
法律的所有其他部分仍然在第二天生效。
And around that time the idea of leaving popped into Amelia's mind for the very first time.
就在那时，阿米莉亚第一次萌生了离开的念头。
She popped it right back out.
她马上把它弹出来。
Hold up.
耽误。
Pause.
暂停。
Let's just see.
让我们看看吧。
Let's just see.
让我们看看吧。
Let's just see.
让我们看看吧。
The circumstances in Idaho are not set in stone.
爱达荷州的情况并不是一成不变的。
Things are still changing and moving.
事情仍在变化和移动。
And so let's see where this goes.
让我们看看这会发生什么。
Surely this is going to be reined in.
肯定会遏制这种情况的。
This is the same calculation some of the other doctors I've talked to are making-- wait and see.
这与我交谈过的其他一些医生所做的计算是一样的——等着瞧吧。
But one of the things they're all waiting and seeing about is, who will be the first OB-GYN put on trial and possibly put in prison for providing health care to one of their patients?
但他们都在等待和关注的一件事是，谁将成为第一个因向患者提供医疗保健而受到审判并可能入狱的妇产科医生？
Amelia, back at work, had a whole bunch of new stuff to sort through in her mind with these laws.
阿米莉亚回到工作岗位后，脑子里有一大堆新的东西需要根据这些法律来整理。
The new laws defined abortion as the use of any means to intentionally terminate a clinically diagnosable pregnancy.
新法律将堕胎定义为使用任何手段故意终止临床可诊断的妊娠。
So ectopic pregnancies, for example, came up all the time in her clinic.
例如，宫外孕在她的诊所里经常出现。
An ectopic pregnancy means a fertilized egg is sitting outside of the uterus, and sometimes has what the law calls a fetal heartbeat.
宫外孕是指受精卵位于子宫外，有时会出现法律上所说的胎儿心跳。
It's not viable.
这是不可行的。
It can be fatal.
这可能是致命的。
And the longer it sits there, the more danger the patient is in.
它在那里停留的时间越长，患者面临的危险就越大。
What am I supposed to do with a patient like this?
遇到这样的病人我该怎么办？
Per the total abortion ban, I need to wait until she's really sick.
根据全面堕胎禁令，我需要等到她真的病了。
I can't act just to protect her health.
我不能仅仅为了保护她的健康而采取行动。
I should be waiting until I'm saving her life.
我应该等到我救了她的命。
This is totally opposite of my medical training.
这与我的医学训练完全相反。
Her medical training was, try to stop things before they become life-threatening.
她的医学训练是，在事情危及生命之前尽力阻止它们。
The solution used to be straightforward.
解决方案过去很简单。
She'd remove ectopic pregnancies with a quick surgical procedure or inject a drug that would end the pregnancy.
她会通过快速外科手术切除宫外孕，或者注射药物来终止妊娠。
One day, Amelia had a patient like that.
有一天，阿米莉亚遇到了一位这样的病人。
Their pregnancy test was positive, but Amelia could not find a fertilized egg in their uterus.
他们的妊娠测试呈阳性，但阿米莉亚在子宫内找不到受精卵。
An injection was clearly the best option.
注射显然是最好的选择。
So while the patient was in the exam room, Amelia started calling administrators at her hospital, asking, can I do this?
因此，当患者在检查室时，阿米莉亚开始给医院的管理人员打电话，询问，我可以这样做吗？
She later talked to some lawyers about what she could do in this kind of situation.
她后来与一些律师讨论了在这种情况下她可以做什么。
One answer that I got was that it's probably 90% safe, legally.
我得到的一个答案是，它可能 90% 安全、合法。
What does that mean?
这意味着什么？
So you're saying I have a 1-in-10 chance of spending two years in jail with a felony?
所以你是说我有十分之一的机会因重罪入狱两年？
Is that what you're telling me right now?
这就是你现在告诉我的吗？
Right.
正确的。
I got three kids.
我有三个孩子。
I mean, what?
我的意思是，什么？
That's not reassuring to me.
这并不能让我放心。
It's also not a definite answer.
这也不是一个确定的答案。
It's like, well-- you know, like that.
就像，嗯——你知道，就像那样。
[HEMS AND HAWS]
[褶边和霍斯]
And then, I have another lawyer who I've been in contact with who says, take care of the patient.
然后，我联系过的另一位律师说，照顾好病人。
Do what you've been trained to do.
做你受过训练要做的事情。
Take care of the patient.
照顾病人。
Amelia advised her patient to go to the ER.
阿米莉亚建议她的病人去急诊室。
The ER-- chaotic, impersonal, and usually more expensive for the patient.
急诊室——混乱、缺乏人情味，而且通常对病人来说更昂贵。
But that's the only workaround she had to make sure the patient got the care they needed while protecting herself under these new laws.
但这是她必须确保患者得到所需护理的唯一解决方法，同时根据这些新法律保护自己。
Amelia started sending all of her ectopic pregnancies to the ER.
阿米莉亚开始将她所有的宫外孕都送到急诊室。
Here's another thing Amelia realized about the way the laws are set up.
关于法律的制定方式，阿米莉亚还意识到了另一件事。
Even though ER doctors in Idaho should theoretically be protected from criminal prosecutions, a prosecutor could still decide to try and charge her husband Vince anyways.
尽管理论上爱达荷州的急诊医生应该受到保护，免受刑事起诉，但检察官仍然可以决定尝试指控她的丈夫文斯。
And under the law as it stands, people can definitely sue doctors, including ER doctors, for damages.
根据现行法律，人们绝对可以起诉医生，包括急诊医生，要求赔偿。
So it was dawning on Amelia that it was possible that she and Vince could both now be sued by multiple family members of a quote, "preborn child."
因此，阿米莉亚逐渐意识到，她和文斯现在可能会因“未出生的孩子”这句话而被多名家庭成员起诉。
The father of the preborn child, a grandparent of the preborn child, a sibling of the preborn child, or an aunt or uncle of the preborn child.
预产儿的父亲、预产儿的祖父母、预产儿的兄弟姐妹、或者预产儿的阿姨或叔叔。
So when I read this, does this mean that the father of a rapist, that the sister of a rapist, that the brother of the rapist can sue the physician?
那么当我读到这篇文章时，这是否意味着强奸犯的父亲、强奸犯的妹妹、强奸犯的兄弟可以起诉医生？
It absolutely does.
确实如此。
Family members can each file individual separate lawsuits asking for a minimum of $20,000.
家庭成员每人可以单独提起诉讼，要求至少 20,000 美元。
And they have up to four years to file a lawsuit.
他们有长达四年的时间提起诉讼。
All right, back to the language of the law, statutory damages in an amount not less than $20,000.
好吧，回到法律语言，法定损害赔偿金额不少于 20,000 美元。
So just take note, instead of having, here's the ceiling, this is the maximum, we start with a minimum payout.
所以请注意，我们从最低支付开始，而不是这里是上限，这是最大值。
So all of that was on Amelia's mind when another patient came into the clinic.
因此，当另一位患者来到诊所时，阿米莉亚脑海中浮现出这一切。
She had an ectopic pregnancy that ruptured.
她患有宫外孕，但后来破裂了。
Amelia put a camera into her patient's abdomen.
阿米莉亚将一台相机放入病人的腹部。
And I'm like, oh, my gosh.
我就像，哦，天哪。
There is way more blood than there was described on the ultrasound that this person had 60 minutes ago.
这个人 60 分钟前的超声波检查显示的血量比描述的要多得多。
We have got to move quickly.
我们必须迅速采取行动。
The bleeding could kill her.
流血可能会杀死她。
And the way to stop the bleeding was to abort the pregnancy, which was never going to be viable anyway.
止血的方法就是流产，无论如何这都是不可能的。
When you do surgery like that, where it's an emergency and somebody's having ongoing, active bleeding, that's already high stress.
当你做这样的手术时，在紧急情况下，某人正在持续、活动性出血，这已经是很大的压力了。
And that sort of high stress, I trained for that.
那种高压力，我为此进行了训练。
I know what to do with that.
我知道该怎么办。
I can handle that.
我能处理好。
Then, you add in this other weird layer of, is her brother going to not understand that this was a not-viable pregnancy and that her life was at risk?
然后，你再加上另一个奇怪的层，她哥哥是否会不明白这是一次无法存活的怀孕，并且她的生命处于危险之中？
And what about her mom?
那她妈妈呢？
What about her partner?
她的伴侣呢？
What about her sister?
她姐姐呢？
Do these people understand how serious this condition is, or do they only understand that I removed a pregnancy that had a heartbeat?
这些人是否了解这种情况有多严重，或者他们只了解我切除了有心跳的妊娠？
I don't know.
我不知道。
How am I supposed to know?
我怎么知道？
She started looking at her patients' charts as evidence she might need in court.
她开始查看患者的病历，作为她在法庭上可能需要的证据。
She wrote down words like, life-threatening, and high chance of mortality for some theoretical future lawsuit.
她为一些理论上的未来诉讼写下了诸如“危及生命”和“死亡率很高”等字样。
Another case, a patient came in to see her for a biopsy of the lining of their uterus.
在另一个案例中，一名患者来看望她，对子宫内膜进行活检。
Amelia found herself worrying, wait, what if she's pregnant?
阿米莉亚发现自己很担心，等等，如果她怀孕了怎么办？
The person had mentioned they hadn't been using contraception.
该人提到他们没有采取避孕措施。
And so then I'm thinking, well, wait a minute.
然后我想，好吧，等一下。
When was her last menstrual period?
她最后一次月经是什么时候？
We're definitely doing a urine pregnancy test, but what's the plausibility that there could be a pregnancy that isn't detectable yet, super, super early stages?
我们肯定会做尿妊娠测试，但是还没有检测到的超早期怀孕的可能性有多大？
In these early stages, a P-Test is not definitive.
在这些早期阶段，P 测试并不是确定的。
It can still come up as negative.
它仍然可能表现为负面。
If I had a quarter for every single time that somebody said, there's no way I'm pregnant and then has a positive pregnancy test, then I'd be rich.
如果每次有人说我不可能怀孕，然后妊娠试验呈阳性，我就能得到 25 美分，那我就很有钱了。
If there was any chance that this patient was pregnant, a biopsy could inadvertently terminate this patient's potential pregnancy.
如果该患者有可能怀孕，活检可能会无意中终止该患者的潜在妊娠。
So there's part of me that's like, we should not do anything today.
所以我的一部分感觉是，我们今天不应该做任何事情。
She needs to use effective contraception for a month and then come back, and then I can do this procedure once I'm really sure that she's not pregnant.
她需要使用有效的避孕措施一个月然后回来，然后当我确实确定她没有怀孕时我可以做这个手术。
But that's also really impractical for this person who's driven hours to come see me.
但对于这个开车几个小时来见我的人来说，这也确实不切实际。
And further, she has a medical problem that needs attention.
此外，她还有需要关注的健康问题。
She's already waited to see me.
她已经在等着见我了。
This visit has nothing to do with pregnancy.
这次访问与怀孕无关。
Amelia didn't send her back.
阿米莉亚没有送她回去。
She treated her.
她对待她。
This is what it means for Amelia to have these laws in her head all the time, to have to think of every single person who enters her office as pregnant or possibly pregnant, to have that become her constant focus.
这对阿米莉亚来说意味着始终牢记这些法律，必须将进入她办公室的每个人都视为怀孕或可能怀孕，并使其成为她持续关注的焦点。
More and more, she's finding that what she believes is good care, the kind she's obliged to provide under medical malpractice laws, is in direct conflict with what the new laws say.
她越来越发现，她所认为的良好护理，也就是她根据医疗事故法有义务提供的护理，与新法律的规定存在直接冲突。
And she knows these laws are in her patients' minds, too, because they're asking her, will I get in trouble for this or that?
她知道这些法律也存在于她的病人心中，因为他们问她，我会因此而陷入麻烦吗？
Is this legal-- worrying about that on top of whatever actual medical problem they came to her for.
这是合法的吗——除了他们来找她解决任何实际的医疗问题之外，还担心这一点。
In other states, there have already been numerous reports about doctors delaying care for pregnant patients, or even turning them away because of new laws criminalizing OB-GYN care.
在其他州，已经有大量报道称，由于新法律将妇产科护理定为刑事犯罪，医生推迟了对怀孕患者的护理，甚至拒绝了她们。
Some patients have almost died and ended up in the ICU.
有些病人差点就死了，最后住进了重症监护室。
Amelia and her husband for months were pinning their hopes on Idaho's Supreme Court overturning the state's abortion laws.
几个月来，阿米莉亚和她的丈夫一直寄希望于爱达荷州最高法院推翻该州的堕胎法。
That was their big wait and see, while in the back of her mind, there was this growing, nagging feeling.
那是他们漫长的等待和观望，而在她的内心深处，有一种不断增长的、挥之不去的感觉。
Will we be able to keep living here if the court's decision doesn't go our way?
如果法院的判决不符合我们的意愿，我们还能继续住在这里吗？
I'm just so agitated as I am describing all of this.
当我描述这一切时，我感到非常激动。
And the intensity level is just so high for me.
而且强度对我来说太高了。
And my friend says, well, so when do you just put this all down and just take a break?
我的朋友说，那么，你什么时候才能放下这一切，休息一下呢？
And I'm thinking, what does she mean?
我在想，她是什么意思？
Take a break?
休息一下吗？
How can I take a break?
我怎样才能休息？
I'm literally vibrating out of my body.
我的身体真的在振动。
I mean, that's also a problem, that inability to escape this.
我的意思是，这也是一个问题，无法逃避这个问题。
I don't know how to put it down, just sort of this, walking around, whether at work or at home, and just these deep sighs, just feeling-- [SIGHS] like there, see?
我不知道如何放下它，就像这样，四处走动，无论是在工作还是在家里，只是这些深深的叹息，只是感觉 - [叹息]就像在那里，明白吗？
I do it without even thinking about it.
我想都没想就这么做了。
She was having trouble sleeping-- a first for her.
她睡眠困难——这对她来说是第一次。
Laying awake at night and thinking about this or that, and I think just the tension that you're holding in your body or having to think about taking a deep breath because you've been holding your breath all day.
晚上睡不着的时候，想这个或那个，我想的只是你体内的紧张感，或者因为你一整天都屏住呼吸而不得不考虑深呼吸。
Amelia and Vince have had some wild conversations in the last few months.
在过去的几个月里，阿米莉亚和文斯进行了一些疯狂的谈话。
They have talked about the possibility that both of them could end up in jail, or face multiple lawsuits with potentially massive civil penalties, or lose their medical licenses.
他们谈到了两人最终都可能入狱的可能性，或者面临多起诉讼并可能面临巨额民事处罚，或者被吊销行医执照。
Chances are probably small, but also, it's impossible to be sure.
可能性可能很小，但也无法确定。
What happens if both of us are in jail for two years?
如果我们俩都入狱两年怎么办？
Who is raising our kids?
谁在抚养我们的孩子？
We know, yeah, we have a plan for our kids if that happened.
我们知道，是的，如果发生这种情况，我们会为我们的孩子制定计划。
What is your plan?
你的计划是什么？
Amelia Huntsberger Family.
阿米莉亚·亨茨伯格家族。
She didn't want to say more about who exactly their kids-- 11, 8, and 6 years old-- would go to.
她不想透露更多关于他们的孩子（11 岁、8 岁和 6 岁）到底会去谁家的问题。
It was the first time I'd seen her look physically uncomfortable answering a question.
这是我第一次看到她在回答问题时看起来身体不舒服。
She kind of pursed her lips and shook her head no. She just couldn't go there.
她抿了抿嘴唇，摇摇头说“不”。她就是不能去那里。
A couple months ago, a few things happened that moved the idea of leaving from the back of Amelia's mind to the front.
几个月前，发生了几件事，使阿米莉亚的离开想法从脑海中浮现出来。
The first took place in a car parked outside the state capital in Boise.
第一次发生在停在州首府博伊西外的一辆汽车里。
She was with another OB-GYN.
她和另一位妇产科医生在一起。
They'd been talking to the people in the governor's office about expanding Medicaid coverage for people who'd just given birth.
他们一直在与州长办公室的人讨论扩大刚刚分娩的人的医疗补助覆盖范围。
So they were sitting in Amelia's rental car and her friend turned to her.
他们坐在阿米莉亚租来的车里，她的朋友转向她。
And she had told me at that point that she was deciding between different job options.
当时她告诉我，她正在不同的工作选择之间做出选择。
Job options in another state.
另一个州的工作选择。
This was a huge blow to Amelia.
这对阿米莉亚来说是一个巨大的打击。
She'd been a key ally in this fight.
她是这场战斗的关键盟友。
Then, right after that conversation, Amelia caught up with another friend, a lawyer who'd also been fighting these laws.
然后，在那次谈话之后，阿米莉亚找到了另一位朋友，一位律师，他也一直在反对这些法律。
Amelia remembers her saying--
阿米莉亚记得她说过——
I haven't told many people this yet, but I'm planning to leave.
我还没有告诉很多人这件事，但我正打算离开。
So in the same day, in Boise, these two people who I respect, and admire, and trust told me, this state is not a place for me anymore.
所以就在同一天，在博伊西，这两个我尊敬、钦佩和信任的人告诉我，这个州不再适合我了。
And I'm planning my exit.
我正在计划退出。
And then, the state Supreme Court ruling she and her husband Vince had been waiting for came down.
然后，她和丈夫文斯一直在等待的州最高法院裁决下来了。
Amelia was at home and on her day off when it happened.
事情发生时，阿米莉亚正在家里休息。
I happened to look at my email and there was this message from one of the lawyers that just said in the subject line, Supreme Court decision out, not good, will follow up later.
我碰巧查看了我的电子邮件，其中一位律师发来了这条消息，刚刚在主题行中说，最高法院的判决不好，稍后会跟进。
And I just kind of was panicked of, what does this mean?
我只是有点惊慌，这是什么意思？
And so then, I'm trying to do this Google search.
然后，我尝试进行谷歌搜索。
Nothing comes up.
什么也没有出现。
And so then I'm like, well, I've got to go.
然后我就想，好吧，我得走了。
I've got to pick up my kids.
我得去接我的孩子们。
So I get in my car and I drive to school pickup, and then I'm waiting in line and the car's in park.
所以我上了车，开车去学校接送，然后我排队等候，车停在停车场。
Then, I pull out my emails again to just try to see, can I find anything about this?
然后，我再次拿出我的电子邮件来尝试看看，我能找到有关此的任何信息吗？
And then other people are linking to a summary, and this and that.
然后其他人会链接到摘要，等等。
And I'm sobbing, right?
我在哭泣，对吗？
I was just like, the Supreme Court in Idaho believes that all three abortion laws are constitutional.
我当时想，爱达荷州最高法院认为所有三项堕胎法都是宪法的。
The court carved out one small exception-- ectopic pregnancies, but not miscarriages, not deadly fetal anomalies, or anything else.
法院规定了一个小小的例外——宫外孕，但不包括流产、致命的胎儿异常或其他任何情况。
Amelia broke the news to Vince.
阿米莉亚把这个消息告诉了文斯。
She says the first question he asked her was--
她说他问她的第一个问题是——
Is this it?
是这个吗？
Is this the tipping point, was his question to me.
这是他向我提出的问题吗？
Is this a place that we can continue to live, and practice medicine, and raise our family?
这是我们可以继续生活、行医、养家的地方吗？
What did you say?
你说什么？
Amelia Huntsberger Yeah, I think I'm not at the tipping point yet.
阿米莉亚·亨茨伯格：是的，我想我还没有到临界点。
And I asked back to him, are you?
我又问他，你是吗？
Is this the nail in the coffin for you?
这对你来说是棺材里的钉子吗？
Are you done?
你完成了吗？
And we're not there yet, right?
我们还没有到那一步，对吧？
We're not at the tipping point yet.
我们还没有到临界点。
No. I'm not-- I'm not sure.
不，我不——我不确定。
Obviously this Supreme Court decision is a big blow, and I don't know exactly where that line is of what I can tolerate.
显然，最高法院的这一判决是一个巨大的打击，我不知道我能容忍的界限到底在哪里。
Vince's job in the ER still had some protection.
文斯在急诊室的工作仍然受到一些保护。
That federal court ruling still holds for now, allowing emergency abortion procedures that go through actual emergency rooms.
联邦法院的裁决目前仍然有效，允许紧急堕胎程序通过实际的急诊室进行。
But everything felt precarious.
但一切都感觉岌岌可危。
Amelia and Vince now talk about leaving almost every day.
阿米莉亚和文斯现在几乎每天都会谈论离开的事。
Sometimes leaving can be an act of protest, but Amelia feels like it would be a retreat, a giving in, like, I can save myself but I'd be leaving my patients behind.
有时离开可能是一种抗议行为，但阿米莉亚觉得这将是一种撤退，一种屈服，就像，我可以拯救自己，但我会离开我的病人。
She's worried that if she left, her clinic could collapse.
她担心如果她离开，她的诊所可能会倒塌。
She's one of only four OB-GYNs, and one of the others is thinking about leaving, too.
她是仅有的四名妇产科医生之一，其他一名妇产科医生也正在考虑离开。
Amelia says, if they did leave first, she'd probably have to leave, too.
阿米莉亚说，如果他们先离开，她可能也得离开。
If Amelia or one of her colleagues does leave Sandpoint, the options for finding a replacement are bleak.
如果阿米莉亚或她的一位同事确实离开桑德波因特，寻找替代者的选择就很渺茫。
The last time an OB-GYN left her clinic, it took them two years to find another one, and that was before Roe fell.
上次一名妇产科医生离开她的诊所时，他们花了两年时间才找到另一名妇产科医生，那是在罗伊倒下之前。
Idaho already has a severe shortage of doctors, one of the worst in the country.
爱达荷州已经严重缺乏医生，这是该国最严重的医生短缺问题之一。
I was looking at social media and somebody was talking about a person who is completing their OB-GYN residency and was looking to come to the Pacific Northwest.
我正在查看社交媒体，有人正在谈论一个正在完成妇产科住院医师实习并希望来到太平洋西北地区的人。
And there was all this, hey, we've got an opening in Washington.
就是这样，嘿，我们在华盛顿有一个空缺。
We've got an opening in Oregon.
我们在俄勒冈州有一个空缺职位。
We've got openings in Montana.
我们在蒙大拿州有空缺职位。
And I'm like, hey, there's all sorts of openings in Idaho.
我想，嘿，爱达荷州有各种各样的职位空缺。
And then I'm laughing out loud because I'm like, who is going to be finishing their residency training and being like, I definitely want to go to the state with the super strict abortion laws that criminalize health care?
然后我大笑起来，因为我想，谁将完成他们的住院医师培训，并且像，我肯定想去一个拥有超级严格的堕胎法的州，该法将医疗保健定为犯罪？
I literally laughed out loud, and that's awful, right?
我真的笑出了声，这太糟糕了，对吧？
I'm laughing about how ridiculous it is that somebody would choose to come and practice medicine here.
我笑了，有人选择来这里行医，这是多么可笑。
That's terrible.
太可怕了。
That should be very alarming to anyone.
这对任何人来说都应该非常令人震惊。
But I didn't-- I was like, it's like, you laugh so you don't cry.
但我没有——我想，就像，你笑了，所以你不会哭。
I don't even know.
我什至不知道。
Yeah.
是的。
Did you post, there's tons of openings in Idaho, or did you know better?
您是否发布过，爱达荷州有大量空缺职位，或者您是否更了解？
I sure did.
我确实做到了。
And I was like, I mean, but then you have to deal with the laws here.
我当时想，我是说，但是你必须遵守这里的法律。
But I'm like, legit, if you're willing to deal with the laws, I will hook you up.
但我想，合法的，如果你愿意遵守法律，我会把你抓起来。
I know all the people who are looking.
我认识所有正在寻找的人。
I got you.
我接到你了。
But you're not going to want to come here.
但你不会想来这里的。
Are you kidding me?
你在开玩笑吧？
I know that.
我知道。
I mean, if you do want to come here, cool.
我的意思是，如果你确实想来这里，那就太好了。
Like I say, I'll help you.
就像我说的，我会帮助你。
If 1 is, never leave, and 10 is, we got to go, where are you on that spectrum right now?
如果 1 是，永远不要离开，如果 10 是，我们必须离开，你现在在这个范围内的哪个位置？
What makes it hard?
是什么让事情变得困难？
Amelia Huntsberger [SIGHS] I don't want to leave here.
阿米莉亚·亨茨伯格 [叹气]我不想离开这里。
And just turning it into something more black and white like a number scale does-- feels hard.
只是把它变成像数字刻度那样更黑白分明的东西——感觉很困难。
I don't want to leave, but I don't know if I can stay.
我不想离开，但我不知道我是否能留下来。
Some doctors have decided to leave.
一些医生已经决定离开。
I talked to two OB-GYNs-- one had just left Texas, the other, Tennessee.
我和两位妇产科医生交谈过——其中一位刚刚离开德克萨斯州，另一位来自田纳西州。
Their jobs are different from Amelia's because they're high-risk OBs, and so they're seeing some of the most difficult cases.
他们的工作与阿米莉亚的工作不同，因为他们是高风险的产科医生，所以他们看到的是一些最困难的病例。
They told me they were just like Amelia when new abortion laws went into effect in their states.
他们告诉我，当新的堕胎法在他们的州生效时，他们就像阿米莉亚一样。
They also wanted to stay.
他们也想留下来。
And they also didn't know what their tipping point was and wanted to keep treating their patients.
他们也不知道自己的临界点是什么，并希望继续治疗患者。
And each of them described the same kind of moment to me.
他们每个人都向我描述了同样的时刻。
One day, they found themselves in a terrible situation with a patient, brought on by trying to comply with the new laws.
有一天，他们发现自己与一位病人陷入了可怕的境地，这是由于试图遵守新法律而造成的。
One of them had to send a patient to another state in an ambulance.
其中一人不得不用救护车将病人送往另一个州。
It was a five-hour ride.
车程五个小时。
The patient's blood pressure was rising, and by the time she got to a hospital, her kidneys were starting to fail.
病人的血压不断升高，当她被送往医院时，她的肾脏开始衰竭。
The other doctor had to turn away a patient pregnant with twins.
另一位医生不得不拒绝一名怀有双胞胎的病人。
One of the twins was going to die and the doctor needed to intervene to save the other's life, but he couldn't because of the laws.
双胞胎中的一个即将死去，医生需要进行干预以挽救另一个的生命，但由于法律原因他不能这样做。
He doesn't know what happened to the patient, but he knew, I need to leave.
他不知道病人发生了什么事，但他知道，我需要离开。
Miki Meek, she's one of the producers of our show.
米基·米克（Miki Meek），她是我们节目的制片人之一。
Coming up, is there a statute of limitations on telling a friend, I thought you were way off base?
接下来，告诉朋友我认为你大错特错了，是否有时效限制？
We'll find out together.
我们会一起找出答案。
That's in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.
稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Nancy Updike, sitting in for Ira Glass.
我是南希·厄普代克，代理艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's show, "When To Leave," or if.
今天的节目《何时离开》或者如果。
We're at Act Two of two.
我们现在处于第二幕（共两幕）。
Act Two, The Leaving Expert.
第二幕，离开的专家。
The whole idea for this show came from me reading a story by Masha Gessen, a New Yorker story, Masha is a staff writer there.
这个节目的整个想法来自于我阅读玛莎·格森（Masha Gessen）的故事，这是《纽约客》的故事，玛莎是那里的特约撰稿人。
Reports a lot on Russia, among many other subjects.
报道了很多关于俄罗斯以及其他许多主题的报道。
Masha grew up in the Soviet Union then moved to the United States as a teenager and lives here now.
玛莎在苏联长大，十几岁时搬到美国，现在住在这里。
The New Yorker story was all about leaving, about Russians leaving Russia.
《纽约客》的故事都是关于离开、关于俄罗斯人离开俄罗斯的。
Masha was just about to board a plane to Russia when Russia invaded Ukraine a year ago.
一年前，俄罗斯入侵乌克兰时，玛莎正准备登上飞往俄罗斯的飞机。
And almost immediately after landing, Masha started hearing from people, from friends, about leaving.
几乎在着陆后，玛莎就开始从人们、朋友那里听到关于离开的消息。
I'm trying to think who the first person was.
我正在努力思考第一个人是谁。
I think it was actually Vera, my closest friend.
我认为这实际上是维拉，我最亲密的朋友。
And I think the conversation was, sort of, we're thinking of leaving.
我认为谈话内容是，我们正在考虑离开。
We're thinking of getting tickets to Georgia.
我们正在考虑买去乔治亚州的机票。
Vera has family in Georgia.
维拉在乔治亚州有家人。
Do you think we should go now, or in a couple of months when our 16-year-old gets her foreign travel passports?
你认为我们应该现在就走，还是几个月后我们 16 岁的孩子拿到外国旅行护照后就走？
Was it still going to be viable to leave in a couple of months?
几个月后离开还可行吗？
Were they going to close the borders?
他们要关闭边界吗？
But it still felt almost abstract.
但它仍然感觉几乎是抽象的。
And then, a couple of days later, she said, we're leaving Wednesday.
然后，几天后，她说，我们周三就要离开。
And then, while Masha was at Vera's place for their goodbye gathering--
然后，当玛莎在维拉家参加告别聚会时——
Another mutual friend of ours came by and he was sort of saying, why do you feel you have to leave?
我们的另一个共同的朋友过来了，他好像在说，为什么你觉得你必须离开？
What's the big deal?
有什么大不了的？
There's always time.
总有时间。
Not an unreasonable question, Masha thought at the time.
玛莎当时想，这并不是一个不合理的问题。
That night, overnight, more leaving.
当晚，一夜，更离去。
Masha went to the last independent television station in Russia, TV Rain, and saw a whole scene unfolding.
玛莎去了俄罗斯最后一家独立电视台TV Rain，看到了整个场景的展开。
Staffers at the station had gotten word that the prosecutor's office was investigating TV Rain for quote, "extremism," which meant any one of them could go to jail for years.
该电视台的工作人员得到消息称，检察官办公室正在调查 TV Rain 的“极端主义”一词，这意味着他们中的任何一个人都可能入狱数年。
Staffers also heard that special forces were coming to search the studios.
工作人员还听说特种部队要来搜查工作室。
Other media outlets had been searched before and people had been roughed up.
其他媒体此前也曾被搜查过，人们也曾遭到粗暴对待。
So staff members who were at the station--
所以车站的工作人员——
Ran out of the building, sort of huddled in a pub outside, trying to book tickets on their cell phones.
跑出大楼，挤在外面的一家酒吧里，试图用手机订票。
So there was this sort of call and response where people would be like, Bishkek, two tickets.
因此，有这样的电话和回应，人们会说，比什凯克，两张票。
I'm grabbing those.
我正在抓住那些。
Right, like an auction.
没错，就像拍卖一样。
Yeah, yeah, do I hear--
是啊，是啊，我听到了吗——
It wasn't even an auction.
这甚至不是拍卖。
It's hard to--
很难——
I know they weren't auctioning them off, but the sort of publicness of it.
我知道他们不是在拍卖它们，而是在公开拍卖它们。
Yeah, and a sense of rush, and just very adrenaline-y, and very desperate.
是的，还有一种匆忙的感觉，非常刺激，非常绝望。
And then, the next day, I went to visit other friends.
然后，第二天，我去拜访其他朋友。
And I walked in and I realized, oh, this is their goodbye party.
我走进去，我意识到，哦，这是他们的告别派对。
Oh, my god.
我的天啊。
Masha Gessen And so the friend from the night before, the one who had been asking, what's the point, was also there.
玛莎·格森（Masha Gessen）所以前一天晚上的那个朋友，那个一直在问这有什么意义的人也在场。
And he said, I'm leaving tomorrow.
他说，我明天就走。
And that was just like, he looked like he was shell shocked.
就好像他看起来很震惊。
Because I think something had changed inside him that--
因为我认为他内心发生了一些变化——
From one day to the next?
从这一天到下一天？
Masha Gessen From one day to the next.
玛莎·格森 从这一天到下一天。
And he wasn't even-- he couldn't process what had changed.
他甚至无法接受已经发生的变化。
He knew it had changed and he knew he was leaving, and he was shocked by what he was doing.
他知道一切都变了，他知道自己要离开，他对自己所做的事情感到震惊。
Within a week, all of Masha's friends had left Russia, all of them.
一周之内，玛莎的所有朋友都离开了俄罗斯。
And I don't want to say that they're running for their lives, which is another very important aspect of this whole immigration is, because people are acutely aware that they're not running for their lives, that there are, in fact, other people who were running for their lives at that very same time.
我不想说他们是在为自己的生命而逃亡，这是整个移民的另一个非常重要的方面，因为人们敏锐地意识到他们不是在为自己的生命而逃亡，事实上，在同一时间还有其他人在为自己的生命而逃亡。
In Ukraine.
在乌克兰。
Masha Gessen Because of the same war, right?
玛莎·格森 因为同一场战争，对吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Masha Gessen But that they're running to salvage their sense of selves and to be able to be in the world.
玛莎·格森（Masha Gessen）但他们跑步是为了挽救自我意识并能够融入这个世界。
It's hard to gauge how many Russians have left the country in the last year.
很难估计去年有多少俄罗斯人离开了这个国家。
Tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands?
几万、几十万？
It's a lot, whatever it is.
不管是什么，都很多。
People have left for all sorts of reasons.
人们因各种原因离开。
One reason?
原因之一？
New laws.
新法律。
There were a couple of different laws that they passed a week after the full-scale invasion began, one that made it punishable to call the war a war, and another was that made it a crime to discredit the armed forces of Russia.
全面入侵开始一周后，他们通过了几项不同的法律，其中一项规定，称战争为战争将受到惩罚，另一项规定，抹黑俄罗斯武装部队的行为是犯罪行为。
And that's one of those wide-angle laws that you can do that without realizing that's what you're doing if somebody really wants to--
这是广角法则之一，你可以做到这一点，而不会意识到这就是你正在做的事情，如果有人真的想要的话——
That's exactly-- Nancy Updike --make the case.
南希·厄普代克（Nancy Updike）正是如此。
--right.
- 正确的。
So in a way, it's a more insidious law than-- because calling a war a war, you know what you're supposed to do.
所以在某种程度上，这是一条更阴险的法律——因为称战争为战争，你知道你应该做什么。
You know what you're not supposed to do.
你知道你不应该做什么。
But, of course, terror works much more effectively through laws that are vague and that can't possibly be uniformly applied.
但是，当然，通过模糊且不可能统一适用的法律，恐怖活动会更加有效。
There's another reason I wanted to talk to Masha in particular about leaving.
我想和玛莎谈谈离开的事情还有另一个原因。
Masha is a bit of a leaving expert, like I said, not just as a reporter but in their own life.
正如我所说，玛莎有点像离职专家，不仅是作为一名记者，而且在他们自己的生活中也是如此。
Masha has moved countries three times, each time with no idea if they would ever live there again.
玛莎已经搬过三次国家，每次都不知道自己是否会再次住在那里。
The first time was when Masha was 14 years old and the whole family left the Soviet Union to come to America.
第一次是玛莎14岁时，全家离开苏联来到美国。
Then, Masha moved back to Russia in the '90s.
然后，玛莎在 90 年代搬回俄罗斯。
They went in 1991 on a reporting assignment.
1991 年，他们去执行一项报道任务。
The Soviet Union was in the final stages of unmaking itself.
苏联正处于自我瓦解的最后阶段。
And what was left was the most exciting place on Earth to Masha.
剩下的就是地球上最让玛莎兴奋的地方了。
It was Russia remaking itself.
这是俄罗斯的自我重塑。
Masha also felt something unexpected there, they felt at home, a profound experience after so long away.
玛莎在那里也感受到了一些意想不到的东西，他们有宾至如归的感觉，这是离开这么久之后的深刻体验。
Masha spent the next 22 years living there, loved it, never wanted to leave.
玛莎在那里度过了接下来的 22 年，她非常喜欢这里，再也不想离开。
And then, Masha did leave Russia and moved back here.
然后，玛莎确实离开了俄罗斯并搬回了这里。
Seeing their friends leave now reminded Masha of just how hard that decision had been, to know when to leave.
看到朋友们离开，玛莎想起了这个决定是多么艰难，要知道何时离开。
It was also about new laws.
这也与新法律有关。
Even when they were considering the first law against so-called LGBT propaganda to minors, it seemed so absurd.
即使他们正在考虑制定第一部禁止向未成年人进行所谓 LGBT 宣传的法律，这也显得如此荒谬。
This was back in 2012.
这已经是2012年的事了。
Masha Gessen And I was like, I was supposed to testify.
玛莎·格森 我当时想，我应该出庭作证。
This was still at a time when one-- someone like me-- might go and testify in the Human Rights Council.
当时，像我这样的人可能会去人权理事会作证。
And then the person who was organizing the hearings said, yeah, there's no way they're going to pass it.
然后组织听证会的人说，是的，他们不可能通过。
We're not going to hold a hearing.
我们不会举行听证会。
Let's not draw more attention to it.
我们不要过多关注它。
And then, of course, they passed it.
然后，当然，他们就通过了。
And the Parliament started talking about removing children from families.
议会开始讨论让儿童脱离家庭的问题。
And I went to protest and got beaten up.
然后我就去抗议，结果被打了。
And it's not like it was news, but I'd never actually been beaten up before.
虽然这不是什么新闻，但我以前从未真正被殴打过。
Do you think you were targeted specifically?
你认为你是专门针对的吗？
Yes, I was definitely targeted specifically, in broad daylight, with the police looking on.
是的，我绝对是专门针对的，光天化日之下，还有警察在场。
It's a profound experience, even if you know that sort of thing happens to other people, even people you know.
这是一次深刻的经历，即使你知道这种事情也发生在其他人身上，甚至是你认识的人身上。
And then, they passed a law banning adoption by people who are in same-sex relationships or have citizenships of countries where same-sex marriage is legal.
然后，他们通过了一项法律，禁止同性关系或拥有同性婚姻合法国家公民身份的人收养孩子。
And my oldest son is adopted, so then it was just like, we have to leave.
我的大儿子是被收养的，所以我们就得离开了。
That now describes you and your family so specifically.
现在，这非常具体地描述了您和您的家人。
Exactly.
确切地。
So we put my oldest son on a plane, and then--
所以我们把我的大儿子送上了飞机，然后——
14 is the same age Masha was when the family left the Soviet Union, a whole cycle of leaving and leaving again.
14 岁是玛莎全家离开苏联时的同龄人，整个循环离开又离开。
Masha told me that, in the mix of feelings they've had in the last year, seeing and talking to friends who've left Russia is a strange kind of relief.
玛莎告诉我，在他们去年的感受中，见到离开俄罗斯的朋友并与他们交谈是一种奇怪的解脱。
In a way, the world has become mentally more-- it makes more sense.
在某种程度上，世界在精神上变得更加有意义。
To you?
对你来说？
Masha Gessen To me and to us as a group that we're on the same side of not only the mental border but the physical border.
Masha Gessen 对于我和我们这个团队来说，我们不仅在精神边界上，而且在物理边界上都站在同一边。
For years after Masha left, while friends stayed, Masha sometimes wondered, worried, did I make the right call by leaving?
玛莎离开后的许多年里，当朋友们留下来时，玛莎有时会担心，我离开的决定是否正确？
Could I have stayed, too?
我也可以留下来吗？
There was a nagging thought of, well, maybe it was possible to live there.
有一个挥之不去的想法，好吧，也许可以住在那里。
And so maybe I overreacted.
所以也许我反应过度了。
Maybe I was hysterical about Putin.
也许我对普京感到歇斯底里。
He's terrible, but how terrible is he?
他很可怕，但是他有多可怕呢？
And now, a lot of that is just-- that's just gone.
现在，其中很多都已经消失了。
He is as terrible as anyone has ever been.
他和任何人一样可怕。
I was definitely not hysterical.
我绝对没有歇斯底里。
And no, it wasn't actually possible to have a life there.
不，实际上不可能在那里生活。
And are people saying that to you?
人们对你这么说吗？
Is anyone saying to you, I thought actually you were a little off the deep end and now I see what you mean, or something?
有没有人对你说，我以为你实际上有点偏离了底线，现在我明白你的意思了，或者什么？
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah, people have said that.
是的，人们已经这么说过了。
And it's funny because I even heard it from people who didn't actually say to me, you're crazy, years ago, but now have said, OK, I thought you were a little-- maybe overreacting a little, but I was wrong.
这很有趣，因为我什至从几年前实际上没有对我说你疯了的人那里听到了这样的话，但现在却说，好吧，我认为你有点——也许反应过度了一点，但我错了。
These conversations just seem so strange to me, to have somebody say that and to-- I don't know.
这些对话对我来说似乎很奇怪，有人这么说，而且——我不知道。
It seems so sad.
看起来好悲伤啊。
It's like, oh, yeah.
就像，哦，是的。
I kind of wish you were right, I wish I had overreacted.
我有点希望你是对的，我希望我反应过度了。
Exactly.
确切地。
And I mean, that was always my go-to phrase, like, I'll be really happy if you prove me wrong.
我的意思是，这一直是我最常说的一句话，比如，如果你证明我错了，我会很高兴。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Masha Gessen If I'm being emotionally honest about it--
玛莎·格森 如果我在感情上诚实的话——
Yes, please.
是的，请。
Masha Gessen --of course, I don't wish that I'd overreacted because the amount of regret I'd have if I'd overreacted would be unmanageable.
Masha Gessen——当然，我不希望我反应过度，因为如果我反应过度，我会感到后悔不已。
So it's not like I'm full of schadenfreude for having told you so.
所以我并没有因为告诉你这些而感到幸灾乐祸。
But, yeah, there's an odd sort of emotional peace with having things fall into place.
但是，是的，当一切都井然有序时，会有一种奇怪的情感平静。
I asked Masha if they ever think about leaving this country.
我问玛莎他们是否考虑过离开这个国家。
Masha had a few different answers to that.
玛莎对此有几个不同的答案。
My brain bookmarked this one.
我的大脑给这个添加了书签。
Dissidents, Soviet dissidents were great for setting down rules to live by.
持不同政见者，苏联持不同政见者非常适合制定生活规则。
And I think one of their rules was, you're useless in prison or dead.
我认为他们的规则之一是，你在监狱里或者死了就毫无用处。
But as long as you're not in prison or dead, and you're not facing a significant risk of going to prison or being dead, make a difference where you are.
但只要你没有入狱或死亡，并且你没有面临入狱或死亡的重大风险，就可以改变你的处境。
I think that's a pretty-- this country is so far from our losing the ability to make a difference.
我认为这很漂亮——这个国家距离我们失去改变世界的能力还很远。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
I guess I wonder if you have an eye on laws changing here, laws that would feel threatening to you personally.
我想我想知道你是否关注这里的法律变化，这些法律会对你个人造成威胁。
I mean, I think that once you've immigrated once in your life it's always a possibility.
我的意思是，我认为一旦你一生中移民过一次，那就永远有可能。
So yeah, even though I'm not actively thinking about leaving the United States, it's not a crazy possibility for me.
所以，是的，尽管我没有积极考虑离开美国，但这对我来说并不是一个疯狂的可能性。
It could happen.
这可能会发生。
Personally, it's complicated because I have kids here, and some of them are semi-grown.
就我个人而言，这很复杂，因为我在这里有孩子，其中一些是半成年的。
So then you start having other kinds of roots.
然后你就开始拥有其他种类的根。
But, for example, and this is not a terribly unlikely scenario, it becomes impossible to get hormone treatment in this country.
但是，举例来说，这并不是一种完全不可能的情况，在这个国家不可能获得激素治疗。
That, for me, would be a question of my personal health.
对我来说，这将是我个人健康的问题。
And I'd probably actually have to leave.
我可能真的不得不离开。
Yeah.
是的。
When I first started making this show, I imagined it being about leaving all sorts of places, but it's all about the same place-- home, a place you love.
当我第一次开始制作这个节目时，我想象它是关于离开各种各样的地方，但它都是关于同一个地方——家，一个你爱的地方。
If you're lucky, you have some choice in the matter and time to think about it.
如果你幸运的话，你可以在这件事上做出一些选择，并且有时间去考虑它。
But it's a choice to break your own heart.
但这是一个让自己心碎的选择。
Credits Nancy Updike Today's show was produced by Diane Wu and Chris Benderev.
图片来源 Nancy Updike 今天的节目由 Diane Wu 和 Chris Benderev 制作。
The people who put together today's show include Jane Ackermann, Phia Bennin, Zoe Chace, Sean Cole, Michal Comite, Aviva DeKornfeld, Cassie Howley, Valerie Kipnis, Seth Lind, Alaa Mostafa, Stowe Nelson, Katherine Rae Mondo, Nadia Reiman, Ryan Rumery, Alissa Shipp, Alix Spiegel, Lilly Sullivan, Christopher Swetala, Marisa Robertson-Textor, and Matt Tierney.
今天节目的制作人包括 Jane Ackermann、Phia Bennin、Zoe Chace、Sean Cole、Michal Comite、Aviva DeKornfeld、Cassie Howley、Valerie Kipnis、Seth Lind、Alaa Mostafa、Stowe Nelson、Katherine Rae Mondo、Nadia Reiman、Ryan Rumery、Alissa Shipp、Alix Spiegel、Lilly Sullivan、Christopher Swetala、Marisa罗伯逊-特克斯特和马特·蒂尔尼。
The Managing Editor is Sarah Abdurrahman.
总编辑是莎拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sarah Abdurrahman)。
Senior Editor is David Kestenbaum.
高级编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。
Our Executive Editor is Emanuele Berry.
我们的执行编辑是埃马努埃莱·贝里。
Special thanks to Agnieszka Suszko, Kylie Cooper, Wendy Heipt, Leilah Zahedi-Spung, Alireza Shamshirsaz, Alison Block, Kate Connors, Rachel Kingery, Mary Ziegler, David Childs, and Cheryl Strayed.
特别感谢 Agnieszka Suszko、Kylie Cooper、Wendy Heipt、Leilah Zahedi-Spung、Alireza Shamshirsaz、Alison Block、Kate Connors、Rachel Kingery、Mary Ziegler、David Childs 和 Cheryl Strayed。
Our website, ThisAmericanLife.org, where you can stream our archive of over 750 episodes for absolutely free, again, ThisAmericanLife.org.
我们的网站 ThisAmericanLife.org，您可以在这里完全免费地播放我们的 750 多集档案，同样是 ThisAmericanLife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, and happy birthday, Ira, to our boss, Ira Glass.
谢谢，祝我们的老板艾拉·格拉斯生日快乐，艾拉。
I once saw him get recognized for his voice, and he does have mixed feelings sometimes about the questions people ask when they recognize him in public.
我曾经看到他因声音而被认出，有时他确实对人们在公共场合认出他时提出的问题有复杂的感受。
When somebody comes up to me in the grocery store and wants to ask a question about vaginal discharge, that's not awesome.
当有人在杂货店找到我并想问有关阴道分泌物的问题时，这可不是什么好事情。
I'm Nancy Updike.
我是南希·厄普代克。
Join us next week for more stories of This American Life.
下周加入我们，了解更多关于《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。