786: It's a Game Show! - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #786 | December 8, 2023 786: It's a Game Show!
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 786 集 | 2023年12月8日 786：这是一场游戏秀！
Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass OK, so we're going to try something different today.
序言：序言 Ira Glass 好的，所以我们今天要尝试一些不同的东西。
Something we have never tried on our show.
我们在节目中从未尝试过的东西。
And I got the idea for this from a conversation that I had with Jiayang Fan.
我从与范嘉阳的一次谈话中得到了这个想法。
Jiayang did a story for our show a little while back.
不久前，嘉阳为我们的节目做了一个故事。
And she's not somebody who's normally on the radio.
她也不是平常在电台里出现的人。
She's a magazine writer.
她是一位杂志作家。
And so when time came for her to record her script, she sat in the studio with one of our producers, Diane Wu, who had her read.
因此，当她录制剧本时，她和我们的一位制片人黛安·吴 (Diane Wu) 坐在工作室里，她让她读剧本。
And you know, it's a weird thing to sound, like, relaxed and natural while reading words off a page in a totally soundproof room, hearing your voice on headphones.
你知道，在一个完全隔音的房间里，在一个完全隔音的房间里阅读书页上的文字，通过耳机听到自己的声音，听起来是一件很奇怪的事情，听起来很轻松、自然。
And Diane did with Jiayang what we always do.
黛安和嘉阳做了我们一直做的事情。
She'd tell her, you know, go back and do that sentence a little looser.
她会告诉她，你知道，回去把这句话说得宽松一点。
Or you know, underline this word or whatever.
或者你知道，在这个词下划线或者其他什么。
And that just hit something in Jiayang in this way that doesn't usually happen.
这对嘉阳来说是一种通常不会发生的事情。
Having a fellow Asian-American who looks exactly like me coach me through that process, hearing exactly how much more American she sounded than me, it made me think anew about my voice and the way I speak English.
有一个看起来和我一模一样的亚裔美国人指导我完成这个过程，听到她听起来比我更美国化，这让我重新思考我的声音和我说英语的方式。
OK.
好的。
I have a bunch of things to say to that.
对此我有很多话要说。
First of all, this idea that you and Diane look exactly the same, that's racist.
首先，你和黛安看起来一模一样的想法，这是种族主义。
You do not.
你没有。
Fair point.
公平点。
Fair point.
公平点。
Ira Glass And then it's interesting to me that you perceived it as--
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：然后，我觉得有趣的是，你认为它是——
Jiayang has thought a lot about the way that she speaks English and the way that others do, going back to when she was seven years old and she came to the United States from China.
嘉阳对自己说英语的方式和其他人说英语的方式思考了很多，这可以追溯到她七岁时从中国来到美国的时候。
This was in the '90s in a mostly white part of New Haven.
那是在 20 世纪 90 年代，发生在纽黑文以白人为主的地区。
And it was just understood, she said, that it was her job in the family to learn to speak perfect, accentless English as soon as possible.
她说，大家都明白，尽快学会说一口完美的、没有口音的英语是她在家里的工作。
And my mom and some of her peers had said, oh, you have this very narrow window in which your tongue can adjust to the new language or not, because Chinese is so different than English.
我妈妈和她的一些同龄人曾说过，哦，你的舌头可以适应或不适应新语言的窗口非常窄，因为中文与英语如此不同。
And I really-- because I was seven or eight at the time, I really didn't even think of it as in the brain.
我真的——因为当时我七八岁，我什至没有在大脑中想到它。
I thought about it as the rigidity of my tongue.
我认为这是因为我的舌头僵硬。
And I was so afraid of my tongue literally hardening in my mouth and not being able to contort to this language.
我非常害怕我的舌头在嘴里变硬并且无法扭曲这种语言。
And I think it immediately becomes a test of your ability to survive and thrive in this new environment.
我认为这立即成为对你在这个新环境中生存和发展能力的考验。
How well you can speak without an accent.
你说话没有口音有多好。
Right.
正确的。
Like I've been told, OK, look, you're going to be living in water for the rest of your life.
就像有人告诉我的那样，好吧，听着，你的余生将生活在水中。
Well, the better you can swim, kind of-- I better get a few different kinds of strokes under my belt.
好吧，你游得越好，有点——我最好掌握几种不同类型的泳姿。
And when you view that whole attitude now, like, how do you see it?
当你现在看到整个态度时，你怎么看？
The adult me doesn't necessarily endorse the goal of speaking accentless English and the need to fit into the perfect American ideal, whatever that is.
成年后的我并不一定赞同说无口音英语的目标以及融入完美美国理想的需要，无论那是什么。
But that was what my parents thought was necessary to protect me in a foreign country.
但这是我父母认为在异国他乡保护我所必需的。
Jiayang did the hard work of mastering the countless little subtleties of pronunciation and usage to the point where she thought she sounded more or less like native English speakers.
嘉阳付出了艰苦的努力，掌握了无数发音和用法的细微差别，以至于她认为自己听起来或多或少像以英语为母语的人。
Friends, especially white friends, told her she didn't have an accent.
朋友们，尤其是白人朋友，告诉她她没有口音。
And when she herself had little twinges of like, oh, maybe I sound different, she shrugged it off as being too hard on herself.
当她自己有一些小小的刺痛感时，比如，哦，也许我听起来不一样，她耸耸肩，因为她对自己太严厉了。
And hearing my voice on the radio, hearing myself speak, it was a very rude awakening.
在收音机里听到我的声音，听到我自己说话，这是一个非常粗鲁的觉醒。
It was embarrassing and slightly mortifying.
这是令人尴尬和有点羞愧的。
Like, I do sound different, even when I'm trying really, really hard not to.
就像，我听起来确实有所不同，即使我真的非常努力不这样做。
To be clear, the difference that she heard-- it wasn't that she had an accent like you normally think of an accent.
需要明确的是，她听到的差异——并不是她有你通常认为的口音那样的口音。
Specifically, what she was hearing was--
具体来说，她听到的是——
Over-enunciation.
过度表达。
And maybe I was unattuned to how much effort there is in my most casual speech.
也许我没有意识到我最随意的演讲中包含了多少努力。
A huge part of how I sound different is I'm so afraid that if I don't make the sound explicit, I won't be understood.
我听起来与众不同的一个重要原因是我很害怕如果我不明确地表达我的声音，我就不会被理解。
And that process of making it explicit is what actually makes me sound really different, whereas--
正是这个明确表达的过程让我听起来非常不同，然而——
It's funny.
很有趣。
As you're saying this sentence, I feel so aware of how every final T and every final D, you're actually enunciating.
当你说这句话时，我非常清楚你实际上是如何发音的每个最后的 T 和每个最后的 D。
Right.
正确的。
That effortfulness is part of how I speak.
这种努力是我说话方式的一部分。
OK, so we're finally getting to the reason that I'm telling you all this.
好的，我们终于明白了我告诉你们这一切的原因。
One night a little while back, I ran into Jiayang at an event.
不久前的一天晚上，我在一次活动中遇见了嘉阳。
And she explained all this to me and told me how since coming on our show, she was feeling self-conscious about her English in a way that she hadn't for years.
她向我解释了这一切，并告诉我自从参加我们的节目以来，她对自己的英语感到不自在，这是她多年来从未有过的。
But also and more importantly, she was finding herself listening to Chinese-American friends with new ears.
但更重要的是，她发现自己正在以新的眼光倾听美籍华人朋友的声音。
Suddenly she was hearing the huge variations in cadence and speech that can give away that you're not a native speaker .
突然，她听到了节奏和言语的巨大变化，这可能会暴露出你不是母语人士。
It would come out in the stringing together of certain words.
它会通过某些单词的串联而显现出来。
And I became convinced that I could tell how old someone was when they arrived in this country and started speaking English.
我开始相信，当某人到达这个国家并开始说英语时，我可以判断出他们的年龄。
Because the more fluidly they could pronounce certain words or ride out a cadence, the younger they must have been when they arrived.
因为他们越能流畅地发音某些单词或掌握一定的节奏，他们到达时一定越年轻。
Yeah, I remember that you said to me that night if you could just hear somebody speak, you would be able to tell them how long they had been in this country or how old they were when they arrived in this country.
是的，我记得那天晚上你对我说，如果你能听到有人说话，你就能告诉他们他们在这个国家呆了多久，或者他们到达这个国家时多大了。
Right.
正确的。
Their age of arrival.
他们到来的年龄。
Ira Glass And I said to you at the time, challenge accepted.
Ira Glass 我当时对你说过，接受挑战。
Do you remember?
你是否记得？
We were sitting there.
我们坐在那里。
I said, if I find let's say three people who moved to this country, could we have you come on the radio and you would guess how old they were when they arrived?
我说，如果我发现三个人搬到了这个国家，我们可以让你上广播，你猜猜他们到达时多大了？
And you could exhibit your superpower.
你还可以展示你的超能力。
And we would find out if, in fact, you were correct.
我们会查明你是否真的是正确的。
Exactly.
确切地。
And that I could hear in their speech something that they themselves didn't even necessarily hear.
我可以从他们的演讲中听到一些他们自己不一定听到的东西。
And that's what made it sort of magical to me.
这就是它对我来说有点神奇的原因。
And so that is what we're here to do today.
这就是我们今天来这里要做的事情。
Jiayang is going to play that game.
嘉阳要玩那个游戏。
Maybe the only way she could ever find out once and for all if indeed she can do this.
也许这是她能一劳永逸地知道她是否能做到这一点的唯一方法。
We've created an entire radio game show for that purpose.
为此，我们创建了一个完整的广播游戏节目。
Let me hear some studio audience, please.
请让我听听演播室观众的声音。
[APPLAUSE] And then after doing that, we tried to figure out other experiences that people have that would best be captured not the way we usually do it on our show-- following people around with microphones and recording them, interviewing them-- but in game show format.
[掌声]在这样做之后，我们试图找出人们拥有的其他经历，最好不要像我们通常在节目中那样做——用麦克风跟踪人们并记录他们，采访他们——而是以游戏节目的形式来捕捉。
So we are very excited to bring you something we have never heard of anybody trying, namely, an entire program of stories done as game shows.
因此，我们非常高兴为您带来我们从未听说过有人尝试过的东西，即以游戏节目形式完成的整个故事节目。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One: With Great Power Comes Great Pronounceability Ira Glass Act 1, With Great Power Comes Great Pronounceability.
第一幕：强大的力量带来伟大的发音 Ira Glass 第一幕，强大的力量带来伟大的发音。
OK, so we came up with this game to test Jiayang's claim.
好的，所以我们想出了这个游戏来检验嘉阳的说法。
And Tobin Low, one of the editors on our program-- he's also Chinese-American-- got excited about the idea and volunteered to be our Bob Barker, our Alex Trebek for the game.
我们节目的编辑之一托宾·洛（Tobin Low）也是美籍华人，他对这个想法感到很兴奋，并自愿成为我们游戏中的鲍勃·巴克（Bob Barker）和亚历克斯·特雷贝克（Alex Trebek）。
And so I hand it off to him.
所以我把它交给了他。
Welcome, ladies and gentlemen.
欢迎，女士们先生们。
I am Tobin Low.
我是托宾·洛。
Hello, audience.
你好，观众。
Welcome to a game we are calling Date of Arrival, in which Jiayang Fan tells you when you immigrated to the United States.
欢迎来到我们称之为“到达日期”的游戏，其中范嘉阳会告诉您您什么时候移民到美国的。
Jiayang, welcome.
嘉阳，欢迎。
How are you feeling?
你感觉怎么样？
Are you feeling confident?
你有信心吗？
I'm feeling a bit of trepidation, I have to admit.
我不得不承认，我感到有点恐惧。
I was pumped for this, but now that the date has arrived, my Asian fear of failure is kicking in.
我为此感到兴奋，但现在日期已经到来，我亚洲人对失败的恐惧开始显现。
Well, the good news is we have great guests lined up for you today.
好消息是，今天我们有尊贵的客人为您排队。
And if you guess two of them correctly, you're going to win our prize, which is a brand new car.
如果您猜对其中两个，您将赢得我们的奖品，这是一辆全新的汽车。
This only-- this only ups the stakes and my anxiety.
这只会增加风险和我的焦虑。
I'm hoping that I can channel my anxiety for success.
我希望我能缓解对成功的焦虑。
It's all good.
一切都很好。
I have complete faith in you, Jiayang.
我对你完全有信心，嘉阳。
Are you ready to hear the rules?
您准备好聆听规则了吗？
Hit me.
打我。
Tobin Low OK.
托宾低 好的。
So each guest is somebody who immigrated to the United States from China at some point in their life.
因此，每位客人都是在人生的某个阶段从中国移民到美国的人。
And they have been given up to three sentences to read aloud.
他们被允许大声朗读最多三句话。
So each sentence contains phrases like urban and rural America.
所以每个句子都包含像美国城市和乡村这样的短语。
And these are phrases that, Jiayang, you picked because they can be challenging to pronounce.
嘉阳，你选择这些短语是因为它们发音起来很困难。
Or they are sentences that be very familiar to someone who's lived here for years.
或者这些句子对于在这里生活多年的人来说非常熟悉。
And at the end of each sentence, Jiayang, you get a chance to guess at what age they came to the US.
在每句话的末尾，嘉阳，你有机会猜测他们来到美国的年龄。
If you are within one year of the correct age, we will give you the point.
如果您与正确年龄相差一岁以内，我们将为您提供分数。
Does that make sense?
这有道理吗？
One year.
一年。
I mean, that's narrow.
我的意思是，这很狭窄。
But yes, I accept.
但是，是的，我接受。
OK, great.
好的，太好了。
Well, then we are going to welcome our first guest, Luke Ma.
好，那么我们就要欢迎我们的第一位客人，马卢克。
Hi, Luke, how are you?
嗨，卢克，你好吗？
Where are you calling in from?
您从哪里打来电话？
Hi, everyone.
大家好。
I'm doing lovely.
我做得很可爱。
I'm calling in from San Jose in California.
我从加利福尼亚州圣何塞打来电话。
Just for a point of reference for Jiayang, how old are you?
仅供嘉阳参考，你多大了？
Oh, yes.
哦是的。
I'm 41.
我41岁了。
Tobin Low All right.
托宾·洛 好的。
We are going to go ahead and have you read sentence number one.
我们将继续让您阅读第一句话。
All right.
好的。
Here it goes.
就这样吧。
And I have to say, my Asian fear of failure is kicking in too.
我不得不说，我亚洲人对失败的恐惧也开始显现。
Now I feel like I must-- I have to stump-- I have to stump Fan Jiayang, otherwise I won't win.
现在我觉得我必须——我必须难倒——我必须难倒范嘉阳，否则我赢不了。
[LAUGHTER] So sentence one.
[笑声] 那么第一句话。
The airplane flew over urban and rural America.
这架飞机飞越了美国的城市和乡村。
Jiayang, hearing sentence one, are you ready to make a guess?
嘉阳，听到第一句话，你准备好猜猜了吗？
Not quite, not quite.
不完全是，不完全是。
I think I need a little-- I think I'm going to need a little bit more.
我想我需要一点——我想我还需要一点。
All right.
好的。
Great.
伟大的。
Luke Ma Here you go.
卢克·马 给你。
Sentence two.
第二句。
Got my hands up.
我举起了手。
They're playing my song.
他们正在演奏我的歌。
I know I'm going to be OK.
我知道我会没事的。
Yeah, it's a party in the USA.
是的，这是美国的一个聚会。
OK, great.
好的，太好了。
That's more information.
这是更多信息。
I'm going to have to go all the way for sentence number three.
我将不得不一直讲到第三句话。
I think I'm going to need as much information as I can wrangle.
我想我需要尽可能多的信息。
All right.
好的。
Sentence number three.
第三句。
Peter Piper picked a peck of pickled peppers.
彼得·派珀摘了一小撮腌辣椒。
Yes.
是的。
OK, so this is a secret lifeline that we are going to allow Jiayang to access, which is that Luke, we are going to ask you to say her name.
好的，这是我们将允许嘉阳访问的秘密生命线，即卢克，我们将要求你说出她的名字。
That's all we're asking is just say her name.
我们所要求的只是说出她的名字。
Oof, OK.
噢，好吧。
Tobin Low Curveball, curveball.
托宾低位曲线球，曲线球。
I don't know if-- I don't know if that helped or confused, because clearly he is someone--
我不知道是否——我不知道这是否有帮助或困惑，因为显然他是某个人——
Because you don't have an ABC like me just mangling your name left and right.
因为你没有像我这样的ABC，只是把你的名字左右乱写。
Because he obviously can speak Chinese, because he pronounced the syllables correctly, but also had a mastery of the tones.
因为他显然会说中文，因为他的音节发音正确，而且对声调也有掌握。
But I think I've been given all the information that is permissible.
但我认为我已经获得了所有允许的信息。
And I think I'm-- I have a number in my head.
我想我——我脑子里有一个数字。
OK.
好的。
Jiayang Fan I'm going to go with five.
范嘉阳 我要带五个人去。
OK.
好的。
Jiayang Fan The reasoning here is that Luke has nailed every single sentence.
范嘉阳：这里的推理是卢克已经把每句话都钉牢了。
There's no micropause of anxiety when he says urban and rural America.
当他谈到美国的城市和乡村时，并没有短暂的焦虑。
The double R in rural is so natural.
农村的双R就是这么自然。
And I'm almost tempted to say that he has no accent whatsoever, which is usually the case when you come before the ages of four, five, six.
我几乎想说他没有任何口音，这通常是在四、五、六岁之前出现的情况。
OK, final answer is five.
好的，最终答案是五。
[HORN BLOWING]
[喇叭吹响]
Luke, would you like to tell us at what age you moved to the states?
卢克，您能告诉我们您几岁搬到美国吗？
Yeah, I moved to the States at 37.
是的，我37岁搬到了美国。
No, I moved to the States at one month before I turned nine.
不，我在九岁前一个月搬到了美国。
Shit.
拉屎。
Luke Ma But Fan Jiayang, what you said about my accent is what I think most native speakers and other people have said, which is there doesn't seem to be a discernible accent.
马路克：但是范嘉阳，你所说的关于我的口音，我想大多数母语人士和其他人都说过，那就是似乎没有明显的口音。
And yet somehow in my head, I feel like there is a difference.
但不知何故，在我的脑海里，我觉得还是有区别的。
But I can't really verbalize exactly what that difference is.
但我无法准确地表达出这种差异是什么。
And the only difference I've been able to hone in on in my head is the sense of the ability to drop into a kind of casual, fluid, elided tone in between syllables, where I always feel like my enunciation or the way I speak-- it's just ever so slightly 2% over-enunciated compared to native speakers.
我能够在脑海中磨练的唯一区别是能够在音节之间融入一种随意、流畅、省略的语气，我总是觉得我的发音或我说话的方式——与母语人士相比，它只是稍微发音过度了 2%。
That makes a lot of sense to me.
这对我来说很有意义。
But having said all that, I wonder if you can hear my accent.
但话虽如此，我不知道你是否能听出我的口音。
So if I were to put it on a spectrum, I feel like the way Tobin speaks, to me, is like native beyond native.
所以，如果我把它放在一个范围内，我觉得托宾说话的方式对我来说，就像是母语而不是母语。
It is the most fluid, perfectly expected American sound I can imagine.
这是我能想象到的最流畅、最令人期待的美国声音。
I'm with you 100% on that.
我100%同意你的观点。
Yes, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
So he is the platonic ideal.
所以他是柏拉图式的理想。
Yeah.
是的。
His voice, his sound.
他的声音，他的声音。
The structure of his throat is perfect is what we're saying.
正如我们所说，他喉咙的结构是完美的。
No, no, if we were-- I think if it were aspirational, Tobin has achieved that last 2% to get to 100.
不，不，如果我们——我认为如果这是有抱负的，托宾已经实现了最后 2% 达到 100。
He is nirvana, yes.
他是涅槃，是的。
Tobin Low You guys are hitting on every insecurity I've ever had of like talking to other Chinese kids and them being like, oh, wow, you are-- there's nothing there.
托宾·洛（Tobin Low） 你们这些家伙抓住了我曾经有过的每一种不安全感，就像和其他中国孩子说话一样，他们就像，哦，哇，你们——那里什么都没有。
It's absent.
它不存在。
And just being like, OK, thanks, I guess.
我想，只是说，好吧，谢谢。
Right.
正确的。
Well, yes.
嗯，是的。
I mean, so you hear yourself as B-plus?
我的意思是，所以你听说自己是 B+？
I mean, Asian B-plus.
我的意思是，亚洲 B+。
So I hear myself as a 97 or a 98, compared to Tobin's 100.
所以我觉得自己的得分是 97 或 98，而托宾的得分是 100。
Yeah.
是的。
And Fan Jiayang, for you, honestly I feel like I would put you at like a 94 or 93.
还有范嘉阳，对于你来说，老实说我觉得我会给你打94或93分。
Like I think this person most likely is an immigrant and probably an Asian-American immigrant.
就像我认为这个人很可能是移民，而且可能是亚裔美国移民。
I actually feel very affirmed, because part of listening to yourself is this search for-- and wondering if you hear yourself correctly-- is this question of whether you exist in the same reality, in the same acoustic reality as everyone else.
事实上，我感到非常肯定，因为倾听自己的一部分就是寻找——并想知道你是否正确地听到了自己的声音——这个问题是你是否与其他人一样存在于同一个现实中，同一个声学现实中。
And you gave me like a 93.
你给了我93分。
And I would give myself like a 91.
我会给自己打91分。
So like the fact that we are both in the same ballpark kind of affirms my sense that OK, I am not crazy.
所以就像我们都在同一个球场这一事实证实了我的感觉：好吧，我没有疯。
And I'm not living in delusion.
而且我并没有生活在幻觉中。
You are hearing myself more or less the way that I hear myself.
你听到我自己的声音或多或少就像我听到自己的声音一样。
OK, unfortunately we have to move on.
好吧，不幸的是我们必须继续前进。
Luke, thank you so much for joining us.
卢克，非常感谢你加入我们。
All right, so we are on to guest number two now.
好的，现在我们请第二位客人。
So we're going to welcome Frank.
所以我们要欢迎弗兰克。
Hi, Frank.
嗨，弗兰克。
Frank, could I ask you to introduce yourself?
弗兰克，我可以请你自我介绍一下吗？
Sure.
当然。
Frank Shong.
弗兰克·宋.
I'm 55.
我55岁了。
Tobin Low And where are we reaching you, Frank?
托宾·洛 弗兰克，我们在哪里联系您？
Frank, could you go ahead and read sentence number one for us?
弗兰克，你能为我们读一下第一句话吗？
Yeah, sentence one.
是的，第一句话。
The airplane flew over urban and rural America.
这架飞机飞越了美国的城市和乡村。
Jiayang, after sentence one, are you ready to make a guess?
嘉阳，第一句话之后，你准备好猜猜了吗？
I think I have a sense of the ballpark.
我想我对大致情况有一定的了解。
But I would love additional data.
但我想要更多的数据。
So I'm going to go on to ask for the second sentence.
所以我要继续问第二句话。
All right.
好的。
So this is two.
所以这是两个。
Got my hands up.
我举起了手。
They're playing my song.
他们正在演奏我的歌。
I know I'm going to be OK.
我知道我会没事的。
Yeah, it's a party in the USA.
是的，这是美国的一个聚会。
OK, that was sentence two.
好的，这是第二句话。
How are you feeling, Jiayang?
嘉阳，你感觉怎么样？
I think that I would like to go with 19.
我想我想和19一起去。
Sure.
当然。
I could hear the way that he really lingered on urban and rural.
我听得出他真正流连于城乡。
Even though he said both those words fine, I can hear the effort.
尽管他这两句话说得很好，但我能听出他的努力。
I don't think he came here as a child.
我不认为他是小时候来这里的。
And on top of that, I can detect the hint of an English accent.
最重要的是，我还能察觉到一丝英国口音。
And I wonder if Frank is someone who either spent time in Hong Kong, which was formerly a British colony, or went through an educational system that had British English instruction.
我想知道弗兰克是否曾在香港这个前英国殖民地度过过一段时间，或者接受过英式英语教学的教育体系。
And then maybe came here as a young adult, because I can tell that he's absolutely fluent in the language.
然后也许作为一个年轻人来到这里，因为我可以看出他的语言绝对流利。
Yes.
是的。
Tobin Low OK.
托宾低 好的。
Here's what I'm going to say.
这就是我要说的。
Technically, based on the rules of the game, you got it wrong.
从技术上讲，根据游戏规则，你错了。
[HORN BLOWING] But you're damn close.
[喇叭吹响]但是你已经非常接近了。
Frank came at age 22.
弗兰克出生时22岁。
And I am very tempted to give you the point, because of some of the reasoning you gave.
由于你给出的一些推理，我很想告诉你这一点。
Yeah.
是的。
Tobin Low So like maybe that's a place to start.
托宾·洛（Tobin Low）所以这也许是一个起点。
Frank, can you talk a little bit about learning English and that process for you?
弗兰克，你能为你谈谈学习英语和这个过程吗？
Yeah, so when I was young when they decided to put English back into the curriculum after the Cultural Revolution, we really didn't have much material from the US.
是的，所以当我年轻的时候，当文化大革命后他们决定将英语重新纳入课程时，我们真的没有太多来自美国的材料。
So anyone who lived in China my age or above would know that's the age of the material from the BBC.
因此，任何生活在中国的、与我同龄或以上的人都会知道那是 BBC 材料的年龄。
And so that's where I picked up my accent.
这就是我的口音的地方。
That's interesting.
那很有意思。
And the irony of it is that I grew up in-- I was born in '84.
具有讽刺意味的是，我出生于 84 年。
And I grew up when the only Chinese you were supposed to speak was state-mandated, like accentless Mandarin.
在我长大的时候，国家规定你只能说中文，比如没有口音的普通话。
Do you remember?
你是否记得？
Yeah.
是的。
Jiayang Fan So you weren't supposed to speak any regional accent at all.
Jiayang Fan：所以你根本不应该说任何地方口音。
And that's the Mandarin that I speak, kind of completely devoid of any regional accent.
这就是我说的普通话，完全没有任何地方口音。
I disagree with that.
我不同意这一点。
Jiayang Fan Oh, really?
范嘉阳哦，真的吗？
How so?
为何如此？
Because in my effort to look up Jiayang's videos, I saw one of you interviewing restaurants in Chinatown.
因为在我努力查找嘉阳的视频时，我看到你们之一正在采访唐人街的餐馆。
Yes.
是的。
Frank So in my view, you have less of an accent in English than your accent in Chinese.
Frank 所以在我看来，你的英语口音比中文口音要少。
Well, this is a plot twist.
嗯，这是一个情节转折。
What do you mean?
你是什么意思？
What do you hear in my Chinese?
你从我的中文里听到了什么？
For instance, the jeh che tse distinction, you don't really try to make that clear.
例如，“jeh che tse”的区别，你并没有真正试图弄清楚这一点。
Wow.
哇。
Jiayang Fan Oh, wow.
范嘉阳 哦，哇。
Yes.
是的。
But you don't hear like an American accent in my Chinese.
但你听不出我的中文有美国口音。
Right.
正确的。
Right, not an American accent but a--
是的，不是美国口音，而是——
Phew.
唷。
Phew, Frank, because if you were going to accuse me of having an American accent--
唷，弗兰克，因为如果你要指责我有美国口音——
Sorry, sorry.
对不起，对不起。
Jiayang Fan In Chinese, that was really going to throw me for a loop.
范嘉阳（Jiayang Fan）用中文来说，这真的让我大吃一惊。
And on that note-- Jiayang Fan On that note, thank you so much, Frank.
就此而言，范嘉阳 (Jiayang Fan) 在此，非常感谢你，弗兰克。
It was a real pleasure chatting.
聊天真的很愉快。
Thank you guys.
谢谢你们。
Tobin Low We are ready for our next guest.
Tobin Low 我们已准备好迎接下一位客人。
Please welcome Larissa.
请欢迎拉里萨。
Hi, Larissa.
嗨，拉里萨。
Yeah, my name is Larissa Jo.
是的，我叫拉里萨·乔。
I'm 35.
我35岁了。
No, wait, am I 35?
不，等等，我已经35岁了吗？
I'm 34.
我34岁了。
OK, so we are ready to jump in.
好的，我们准备开始了。
Larissa, if you would, could you read sentence number one?
拉里萨，如果你愿意的话，你能读一下第一句话吗？
The airplane flew over urban and rural America.
这架飞机飞越了美国的城市和乡村。
I'm definitely going to need the second sentence, Tobin.
我肯定需要第二句话，托宾。
Larissa, can you read sentence number two?
拉里萨，你能读第二句吗？
Got my hands up.
我举起了手。
They were playing my song.
他们正在演奏我的歌。
I know I'm going to be OK.
我知道我会没事的。
Yeah, it's a party in the USA.
是的，这是美国的一个聚会。
OK, that's sentence two.
好的，这是第二句话。
Jiayang Fan Yes.
范嘉阳 是的。
And I'm going to go for sentence number three as well.
我也将选择第三句话。
Peter Piper picked a peck of pickled peppers.
彼得·派珀摘了一小撮腌辣椒。
OK.
好的。
Jiayang Fan I'm thinking out loud.
范嘉阳 我正在大声思考。
I think this one is a bit challenging.
我觉得这个有点挑战性。
Here's what I'll offer.
这就是我要提供的。
Would you like to talk to Larissa a little bit more before locking in your answer?
在确定答案之前，您想与拉里萨多谈谈吗？
Yes.
是的。
Oh, yes, some mercy.
噢，是的，一点怜悯。
Tobin Low OK.
托宾低 好的。
Larissa, can I prompt then?
拉里萨，我可以提示一下吗？
Larissa, the last time we talked, you told a story about volunteering for a local library at some point.
拉里萨，上次我们谈话时，你讲述了一个关于在某个时候为当地图书馆做志愿者的故事。
Could you tell that story?
你能讲一下那个故事吗？
I was volunteering to become an audiobook recorder at the Washington Talking Book and Braille Library.
我自愿成为华盛顿有声读物和盲文图书馆的有声读物录音师。
This was when I lived in Seattle.
这是我住在西雅图的时候。
And you have to audition for it.
而且你必须参加试镜。
You basically just read some passages.
你基本上只是读了一些段落。
And later the volunteer coordinator got back to me and they said, yeah, the judges, they are hesitant to accept you because they don't know where you're from.
后来志愿者协调员回复我，他们说，是的，法官们，他们在是否接受你方面犹豫不决，因为他们不知道你来自哪里。
But they know you're not from around here.
但他们知道你不是这附近的人。
They know you're not American.
他们知道你不是美国人。
But they can't tell where.
但他们不知道在哪里。
That was actually really helpful.
这实际上非常有帮助。
Tobin, if I may--
托宾，如果可以的话——
Yes.
是的。
Jiayang Fan I'm going to alter my guess.
范嘉阳 我要改变我的猜测。
And I will give you my explanation.
我会给你我的解释。
I'm going to say-- I'm deciding between 15 and 16.
我想说——我会在 15 和 16 之间做出决定。
I just can't quite pull the trigger.
我就是无法完全扣动扳机。
I'm going to go for 16.
我要去16。
OK, you're going for 16.
好吧，你就去16吧。
You're coming up.
你快上来了。
Can you tell me a little bit why?
你能告诉我一些原因吗？
It's the way she says the word song.
这就是她说“歌曲”这个词的方式。
She kind of swallows the G in a way that I don't think a native ever would.
她以一种我认为当地人不会的方式吞下了 G。
So it came out like sung, rather than song.
所以它听起来像唱歌，而不是歌曲。
And when that happened, my ears perked up, because that's exactly the way that my mom would have said the word song.
当这一切发生时，我的耳朵竖了起来，因为这正是我妈妈说“歌曲”这个词的方式。
OK, you can't see that I am squirming in my seat, because unfortunately you went the wrong direction.
好吧，你看不到我在座位上蠕动，因为不幸的是你走错了方向。
No, no. Tobin Low Your guess of 10 years old was closer, because the actual answer was that Larissa moved here when she was seven.
不，不。 Tobin Low 你猜测的 10 岁更接近，因为实际答案是拉里萨七岁时搬到了这里。
[HORN BLOWING] Jiayang Fan Oh, that's so frustrating, because that's the age I came here.
[喇叭吹响] 范嘉阳 哦，这太令人沮丧了，因为我就是在这个年纪来到这里的。
[LAUGHTER] And how aware are you of your accent?
[笑声] 你对自己的口音了解多少？
I mean, do you feel like you can hear it?
我的意思是，你觉得你能听到吗？
I would say until that experience which was maybe seven, eight years ago with the recording book, I thought I was camouflaged.
我想说，直到大约七、八年前的那次使用录音书的经历之前，我以为我被伪装了。
I thought I was good.
我以为我很好。
And when I heard that they could tell I didn't sound like I was from the US, I felt-- I don't know, a little disappointed or a little offended.
当我听说他们听出我听起来不像来自美国时，我感到——我不知道，有点失望或有点生气。
And then I spoke to my boyfriend at the time who is American, grew up in America.
然后我和我当时的男朋友交谈，他是美国人，在美国长大。
And I said what, I don't have an accent.
我说了什么，我没有口音。
I speak really good English.
我英语说得很好。
And he said yes, you speak very good English.
他说是的，你英语说得很好。
But you don't speak like an American.
但你说话不像美国人。
And I said, what do you mean?
我说，你是什么意思？
And he said for example, he slurs things.
他举例说，他诽谤一些东西。
He doesn't enunciate.
他没有表态。
And then when he pointed this out, he said I enunciate everything.
然后当他指出这一点时，他说我已经阐明了一切。
And when he said that, was that a moment of recognition?
当他说这句话的时候，那是一个认可的时刻吗？
Or were you like, what are you talking about?
或者你觉得，你在说什么？
Yeah.
是的。
That really makes sense.
这确实有道理。
I think it comes from making sure I am understood in English by my parents and other immigrants, wanting them to understand me.
我认为这来自于确保我的父母和其他移民能理解我的英语，希望他们能理解我。
Right.
正确的。
And I wonder if there's a part of you that wants to have no accent at all.
我想知道你是否有一部分想要完全没有口音。
Like ideally, would it be better just to be completely accentless?
理想情况下，完全没有口音会更好吗？
Yeah.
是的。
You know, for a long time, my experiences had made me be ashamed of it.
你知道，很长一段时间以来，我的经历让我感到羞耻。
And now I'm just like, why?
现在我就想，为什么？
Why?
为什么？
I don't want that.
我不想要这样。
I'm going to stand up for where I come from, the things that shaped me, the things that-- even the experiences that made me enunciate.
我将捍卫我的出身、塑造我的事物、甚至那些让我表达出来的经历。
Because this is something I did to help my community.
因为这是我为帮助我的社区所做的事情。
And now it's really part of me.
现在它真的是我的一部分了。
Yeah.
是的。
No, I really like your logic there and also kind of the evolution of your comfort with how you speak.
不，我真的很喜欢你的逻辑，也喜欢你说话方式的舒适度的演变。
I mean, it's so interesting to talk to you, because I do feel like I'm talking to a version of myself that brings up all my anxieties about how I speak.
我的意思是，与你交谈非常有趣，因为我确实觉得我正在与自己的另一个版本交谈，这引起了我对自己说话方式的所有焦虑。
But also, my aspiration for self acceptance.
而且，我对自我接受的渴望。
There's something about your acceptance of your accent that I find inspirational.
你对自己口音的接受让我觉得很鼓舞人心。
It is not this race to be accentless, the way that I fear I have conceived of my journey in English.
这并不是一场没有口音的比赛，我担心我是用英语来构思我的旅程的。
Like I do feel self-conscious about it.
就像我确实对此感到不自在。
Larissa, if there was a piece of advice for Jiayang to get to where you are, is there something that helped you get to where you are?
拉里萨（Larissa），如果嘉阳有一个建议可以帮助你达到现在的水平，那么有什么东西可以帮助你达到现在的水平吗？
Oh, that's a great question.
哦，这是一个很好的问题。
Larissa Jo Yeah.
拉里萨·乔 是的。
So I guess maybe I would say-- so why do I have this accent?
所以我想也许我会说——那么为什么我有这种口音呢？
Why do I speak this way?
我为什么要这样说话呢？
And I say, well, it's because I lived in China for seven years.
我说，好吧，这是因为我在中国生活了七年。
And then I say, well, if I don't want an accent, the way to not have it is to wish I hadn't lived in China.
然后我说，好吧，如果我不想有口音，没有口音的方法就是希望我没有生活在中国。
And to wish that I was maybe born in the States or something.
并希望我可能出生在美国或其他什么地方。
And do I wish that?
我希望如此吗？
And I say, no, I don't wish that.
我说，不，我不希望这样。
So I want the experiences that also gave me this side effect of the way I speak.
所以我想要那些给我说话方式带来副作用的经历。
And they're an emblem, they're like a memory of that.
它们是一个象征，就像一个记忆。
Thank you, Larissa.
谢谢你，拉里萨。
You are-- I feel like I'm meeting my future self, the person that I would-- the comfort with my accent that I am aspiring to be.
你是——我觉得我正在遇见未来的自己，我想成为的人——我渴望成为的口音的安慰。
So it's been a real pleasure to talk.
所以谈话真的很愉快。
OK.
好的。
So three contestants.
所以三个参赛者。
I hate to add insult to injury.
我讨厌雪上加霜。
But I do have to say your score was zero for three.
但我不得不说你的三分为零。
Maybe this is the time I should tell you, you will not be winning the brand new car.
也许现在我应该告诉你，你不会赢得这辆全新的汽车。
But also the car was going to be just a rental that we were going to give to you for the weekend.
但这辆车也只是我们周末出租给你的。
You've spared me from having to wrangle a friend into being my driver for the rental.
你让我不用费劲去说服朋友当我的租车司机。
Well, Jiayang, thank you for playing our game.
嗯，嘉阳，谢谢你玩我们的游戏。
I would say see you next time, but I think we've learned that this game is impossible.
我想说下次见，但我想我们已经知道这场比赛是不可能的。
And we would discourage it.
我们会阻止它。
No one should ever play this game ever again.
任何人都不应该再玩这个游戏。
Shut it down.
关掉它。
Good night, audience.
晚安，观众。
We'll see you not next time.
我们下次不会再见了。
Tobin Low is one of the editors of our show.
托宾·洛（Tobin Low）是我们节目的编辑之一。
Coming up, can a simple game show save the world?
即将到来，一个简单的游戏节目可以拯救世界吗？
We find out.
我们发现了。
That's in a minute.
就在一分钟之内。
Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台，当我们的节目继续进行时。
It's This American Life, I'm Ira Glass.
这就是美国生活，我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program, it's a game show.
今天的节目，是一档游戏节目。
An entire program of stories presented not the way we usually do, but as game shows, radio game shows.
整个故事节目不是以我们通常的方式呈现，而是以游戏节目、广播游戏节目的形式呈现。
We've arrived at Act Two of our show.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。
And we're calling Act Two--
我们称之为第二幕——
You Bet Your Planet's Life.
你拿你的星球的生命做赌注。
Ira Glass That's George Gray, who agreed to take a little time out from his day job as the announcer of The Price Is Right to help us with this next game.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 那是乔治·格雷（George Gray），他同意从日常《The Price Is Right》播音员的工作中抽出一点时间来帮助我们制作下一款游戏。
And before I get to it, I should explain that this one comes from a question that I have had myself about this thing that I've seen in the news.
在开始之前，我应该解释一下，这个问题来自于我在新闻中看到的关于这件事的一个问题。
You know the Paris Agreement on climate change and how it has these goals that countries are supposed to meet if we're going to hold the planet to less than two degrees of warming overall and ideally just 1.5 degrees of warming?
您知道关于气候变化的《巴黎协定》，以及如果我们要将地球总体升温控制在 2 度以内，最好是 1.5 度以内的话，各国应该如何实现这些目标？
And I've wondered for a while now.
我想知道有一段时间了。
Is there any chance at all, any chance, that the United States is going to make the goals?
美国有没有机会实现这些目标？
Like forget about the rest of the world for a minute.
就像暂时忘记世界其他地方一样。
Just talking about the part of this that we in this country control.
只是谈论我们在这个国家控制的部分。
Will we as a country, one of the biggest carbon emitters, will we make our goal?
作为一个最大的碳排放国之一，我们会实现我们的目标吗？
To do that, we would have to cut our emissions by 50% by the year 2030 for starters.
为此，我们首先必须到 2030 年将排放量减少 50%。
That's just eight years from now.
距离现在只有八年了。
Is there any kind of realistic path that gets us there?
有没有什么现实的道路可以让我们到达那里？
Well, today's game show episode seemed like a perfect opportunity to finally find out.
好吧，今天的游戏节目似乎是一个最终找出答案的绝佳机会。
And so with that in mind, we turn to our next game show.
考虑到这一点，我们转向下一个游戏节目。
Welcome to You Bet Your Planet's Life.
欢迎来到《你赌上你的星球的生命》。
Is there any chance at all, ladies and gentlemen, that we will actually make our goals and cut our emissions to half?
女士们先生们，我们是否有机会真正实现我们的目标并将排放量减少一半？
Well, stay tuned, because today we find out and win valuable prizes.
好吧，请继续关注，因为今天我们会发现并赢得宝贵的奖品。
Well, thank you, George Gray, for that nice intro.
嗯，谢谢乔治·格雷的精彩介绍。
And why don't we bring on today's contestant?
我们为什么不邀请今天的参赛者呢？
Well, Ira, hailing from New York City and Austin, Texas, director of research at Columbia University's Center on Global Energy Policy, she's modeled parts of the climate and energy future and worked around the globe for the US government, the International Energy Agency and the Asia-Pacific Energy Research Center.
艾拉来自纽约市和德克萨斯州奥斯汀，是哥伦比亚大学全球能源政策中心的研究主任，她对气候和能源未来的部分内容进行了建模，并在全球范围内为美国政府、国际能源署和亚太能源研究中心工作。
Say that three times fast.
快说三遍。
Please welcome Melissa Lott.
欢迎梅丽莎·洛特。
Come on down.
下来吧。
Well, welcome, Melissa.
好吧，欢迎，梅丽莎。
And I hope you're ready to play.
我希望你已经准备好开始比赛了。
Now I understand that you are a super taster.
现在我明白你是一个超级品味家。
Was there a moment where you discovered that?
你是否有某个时刻发现了这一点？
There was a moment.
有那么一刻。
I was eating a piece of chocolate.
我正在吃一块巧克力。
And I went to my friend, I think this one's from Ecuador.
我去找我的朋友，我想这个人来自厄瓜多尔。
And they went, how on earth do you know that?
他们说，你到底是怎么知道的？
And I said, well, it's so different than the other one.
我说，好吧，它与另一个有很大不同。
They're like, no, it's not.
他们说，不，不是。
They don't taste different.
它们的味道没有什么不同。
And I was like, they are completely different.
我当时想，他们完全不同。
And they ran off and got a bunch of different ones for me to try.
然后他们就跑去拿了一堆不同的给我尝试。
It turns out I can tell the difference blindfolded.
事实证明我蒙着眼睛也能分辨出来。
Well, those are skills that will not aid you in our game today.
好吧，这些技能在我们今天的游戏中对你没有帮助。
Probably not.
可能不会。
Ira Glass And let me ask you to take a look up there in the big board, because in this first round, here's what we're going to do.
Ira Glass：让我请您看一下大板上的内容，因为在第一轮中，这就是我们要做的事情。
We're going to try to get to 50% cuts in emissions by the year 2030.
我们将努力在 2030 年之前将排放量减少 50%。
Or to be very precise about this, our country's goal for the Paris Agreement is to cut 50 to 52% of where our emissions were back in the year 2005.
或者更准确地说，我国《巴黎协定》的目标是将我们的排放量比 2005 年减少 50% 至 52%。
And Melissa, in each of your turns that we're going to do, you will propose a number for the amount of emissions that you think we can cut.
梅丽莎，在我们要做的每个轮次中，您都会提出一个您认为我们可以削减的排放量的数字。
And then you'll explain how you think we can cut it.
然后你会解释你认为我们可以如何削减它。
If the judges rule that that's credible, if there's reasonable evidence that your proposal could work at the scale and speed you say it could, you will hear this sound.
如果法官裁定这是可信的，如果有合理的证据表明您的提案可以按照您所说的规模和速度发挥作用，您就会听到这种声音。
[DING] And it goes up on the board.
[DING] 它出现在黑板上。
If the judges think your plan is bogus, malarkey, impossible, you will hear this sound.
如果评委认为你的计划是假的、胡言乱语的、不可能的，你就会听到这个声音。
[BUZZ] And we all take one step closer to planetary disaster.
[BUZZ] 我们都离行星灾难又近了一步。
No pressure.
没有压力。
No pressure at all.
完全没有压力。
Ira Glass And George, where do we start?
艾拉·格拉斯和乔治，我们从哪里开始？
Well, Ira, Melissa's starting our game with 25% already on the board.
好吧，艾拉，梅丽莎开始游戏时，棋盘上已经有 25% 的玩家了。
So George, maybe you should explain exactly what that's about.
所以乔治，也许你应该准确地解释一下那是什么意思。
Because this surprised me.
因为这让我感到惊讶。
I really didn't know this before we all started working on this game show.
在我们开始制作这个游戏节目之前我真的不知道这一点。
I'd love to, Ira.
我很乐意，艾拉。
Since 2005, we've already reduced our emissions around 18%.
自 2005 年以来，我们的排放量已减少了约 18%。
That's because of cheap wind power, cheap solar power, cheap natural gas replacing coal.
这是因为廉价的风能、廉价的太阳能、廉价的天然气取代了煤炭。
And because states, local communities, and big corporations are making moves to lower their emissions.
因为各州、当地社区和大公司正在采取措施降低排放量。
But wait, there's more.
但等等，还有更多。
Another 7% or so is locked in and ready to roll by the end of the decade.
另外 7% 左右已被锁定并准备在本世纪末滚动。
All told, 18% plus 7% gives you-- carry the 1, move it over to 2-- 25 big percentage points.
总而言之，18% 加 7% 会给你——把 1 移到 2——25 个大百分点。
Yeah, that was news to me.
是的，这对我来说是新闻。
Our emissions have been going down ever since 2007 in this country.
自 2007 年以来，我们国家的排放量一直在下降。
But what that means is we are already halfway to our goal of 50% by 2030 before we even start our game.
但这意味着，在我们开始游戏之前，我们就已经完成了 2030 年 50% 目标的一半。
That's right, Ira.
没错，艾拉。
Ira Glass So Melissa, your goal is to credibly get us the next 25% on top of that in just eight years.
Ira Glass 那么梅丽莎，您的目标是在短短八年内让我们可信地实现接下来的 25%。
And let's just jump in.
让我们开始吧。
How much do you want to put on the board for your first turn?
您想在第一回合在棋盘上投入多少钱？
OK, 15%.
好的，15%。
And how are you going to get that 15%?
那么你要如何获得这 15% 呢？
So I think that President Biden's big climate and energy law is going to actually get us all the way to that 15%.
因此，我认为拜登总统的大型气候和能源法实际上将使我们一路达到 15%。
Yeah, so it's called the Inflation Reduction Act.
是的，所以它被称为《通货膨胀减少法案》。
But really, it's the biggest energy and climate legislation we've ever passed.
但实际上，这是我们有史以来通过的最大的能源和气候立法。
It's massive.
它是巨大的。
And so how does it do that?
那么它是如何做到这一点的呢？
Melissa Lott So it's a whole host of different things.
梅丽莎·洛特（Melissa Lott） 所以这是一大堆不同的事情。
It's tax credits supporting clean electricity.
这是支持清洁电力的税收抵免。
So I'm talking about solar and wind and nuclear, all the stuff we need to produce zero carbon electricity.
所以我谈论的是太阳能、风能和核能，以及我们生产零碳电力所需的所有东西。
And then it gives us a lot of tax credits to bring a lot of electric vehicles on the road.
然后它为我们提供了大量的税收抵免，让更多的电动汽车上路。
There's tax credits for businesses to help them insulate their buildings, let's say, so they can use less energy in the first place.
比方说，企业可以享受税收抵免来帮助他们的建筑物隔热，这样他们就可以首先使用更少的能源。
And there's tax credits for capturing carbon before it actually goes into the atmosphere when we're making stuff like concrete and cement.
当我们制造混凝土和水泥等材料时，在碳真正进入大气之前捕获碳可以享受税收抵免。
Wait, is concrete and cement actually kind of a big deal?
等等，混凝土和水泥真的有什么大不了的吗？
OK, so you're saying that all these things, they'll add up.
好吧，所以你是说所有这些事情都会加起来。
And these things together get us to 15% of our goals under the Paris Agreement.
这些因素加在一起使我们实现了《巴黎协定》目标的 15%。
So some people are saying 10%.
所以有人说10%。
Some are saying 20%.
有人说是20%。
I'm good with 15%, right in the middle.
我的成绩是 15%，处于中间位置。
All right.
好的。
Let's turn to our judges and see what they say.
让我们转向我们的法官，看看他们怎么说。
Well, Ira, the big board is at 40%, which means she needs another 10% to reach our goal of 50% emissions cut.
嗯，艾拉，大董事会是 40%，这意味着她还需要 10% 才能达到我们减排 50% 的目标。
OK, so now it is your second turn, Melissa.
好的，现在是你的第二轮了，梅丽莎。
In your second turn, how much do you want to put on the board?
在你的第二回合中，你想在棋盘上放多少钱？
I think I'm going to go for it and put up a whole 10%.
我想我会全力以赴并投入10%。
I'm going to go all the way to 50%.
我会一路走到50%。
OK, all right.
好吧，好吧。
Going all the way.
一路走下去。
Daring.
大胆。
What do you got?
你有什么？
OK, so I should say right off the bat that what I have is a whole hodgepodge of stuff.
好吧，所以我应该立即说我所拥有的是一大堆东西。
So it's a lot of different things.
所以这是很多不同的事情。
And so what I'm looking at doing is saying where do we already have momentum?
所以我想做的是说我们在哪里已经有了动力？
Where are we already moving and we just need to move a little bit faster?
我们已经移动到哪里了，我们只需要移动得更快一点？
So squeeze a couple more percentage points out of the things that are already working for us.
因此，从已经对我们有用的事情中再挤出几个百分点。
OK, which means what?
好吧，这意味着什么？
Melissa Lott So this means three buckets to me.
梅丽莎·洛特 所以这对我来说意味着三个桶。
So the first one is electricity.
所以第一个是电。
So it's doing all the stuff that's in the Inflation Reduction Act, but pushing it further.
因此，它正在执行《减少通货膨胀法案》中的所有内容，但还进一步推进。
Building more solar, more wind, more nuclear, storing more electricity.
建设更多的太阳能、风能、核能、储存更多的电力。
OK, bucket two.
好的，第二桶。
Melissa Lott So bucket two is about working with just a few big industries.
梅丽莎·洛特（Melissa Lott）因此，第二个目标是与少数几个大行业合作。
So the ones that produce a lot of greenhouse gases.
所以那些会产生大量温室气体的。
How do we work with them to get their emissions down really quickly?
我们如何与他们合作才能真正快速减少排放？
So for example?
那么举例来说呢？
Melissa Lott Steel's a good example.
梅丽莎·洛特·斯蒂尔就是一个很好的例子。
We make steel with coal today, but we can make it with electricity.
今天我们用煤炼钢，但我们可以用电炼钢。
So let's do that.
那么让我们这样做吧。
OK, bucket three.
好的，第三桶。
Melissa Lott So bucket three, I'm thinking about waste.
梅丽莎·洛特（Melissa Lott） 所以第三个，我正在考虑浪费。
So there's two big things that I want us to stop wasting and that would get us a few more percentage points.
因此，我希望我们停止浪费两件大事，这将使我们获得更多的百分点。
So the first part of this is about reducing greenhouse gas emissions that we just are throwing in the atmosphere.
因此，第一部分是关于减少我们排放到大气中的温室气体排放。
We're just wasting them.
我们只是在浪费它们。
The big one here is methane.
这里最大的一个是甲烷。
So it's fixing leaky pipes.
所以它正在修复漏水的管道。
It's about plugging abandoned oil and gas wells, stopping putting methane into the atmosphere.
这是关于堵塞废弃的石油和天然气井，停止将甲烷排放到大气中。
And the second kind?
那么第二种呢？
Melissa Lott The second kind of waste is the waste we have when it comes to zero carbon electricity.
梅丽莎·洛特（Melissa Lott）第二种浪费是零碳电力方面的浪费。
So we've already built a lot of wind turbines, a lot of nuclear power plants, a lot of solar panels.
所以我们已经建造了很多风力涡轮机、很多核电站、很多太阳能电池板。
And we're not using all that at zero carbon electricity.
我们并没有以零碳电力的方式使用所有这些。
We're just wasting a lot of it.
我们只是浪费了很多。
Like why?
比如为什么？
Melissa Lott There's a bunch of different reasons.
梅丽莎·洛特（Melissa Lott）有很多不同的原因。
But it comes down to supply and demand not matching up.
但这归根结底是供需不匹配。
Is this a thing of like-- the solar energy gets made, but there's no way to store it and there's no way to get it to the homes where it's needed?
这是不是类似的事情——太阳能被制造出来了，但没有办法储存它，也没有办法把它送到需要它的家庭？
Is that what you mean?
你是这个意思吗？
Yeah.
是的。
And that's like-- it's such a waste, Ira.
这就像——这太浪费了，艾拉。
It's like, we already paid for it.
就好像，我们已经付过钱了。
It's already there.
它已经在那里了。
And we're not using it.
我们没有使用它。
So to fix that, we build a lot of wires to move the stuff around.
为了解决这个问题，我们建造了很多电线来移动这些东西。
And then we also figure out ways to store that electricity.
然后我们还找到储存电力的方法。
OK, so between those three buckets, you're saying that adds up to 10%.
好的，那么这三个桶之间的加起来就是 10%。
Can I ask you in the most real way possible, do you think that's actually going to happen?
我能以最真实的方式问你，你认为这真的会发生吗？
Are we actually going to get to 50% by 2030?
到 2030 年我们真的能达到 50% 吗？
I think we're going to get close.
我想我们会很接近的。
I don't know if we're going to get all the way there.
我不知道我们是否能一路走到那一步。
I mean, we could overshoot it, honestly.
我的意思是，老实说，我们可能会超越它。
There's a lot of different factors that go into that, including behavior, including broader things that are happening in the world that I have no insight into.
这涉及到很多不同的因素，包括行为，包括世界上正在发生的、我不了解的更广泛的事情。
What's going to keep us from maybe getting there as fast as we want is all the non-technical stuff.
阻碍我们尽快实现目标的是所有非技术性的东西。
So being able to actually build something, get it permitted, get it paid for in our markets.
因此，能够实际建造一些东西，获得许可，并在我们的市场上获得报酬。
I think it's going to be close.
我认为它会很接近。
I don't know if we're going to get over the 50% line in time, though.
不过，我不知道我们能否及时突破 50% 的界限。
All right.
好的。
Well, judges, what do you think?
那么各位看官，你们怎么看呢？
Oh, wait.
哦，等等。
Wait, is this coming in?
等等，这是进来了吗？
The judges say yes.
评委们说是的。
Well, congratulations, Melissa, for winning round one.
好吧，恭喜梅丽莎赢得第一轮比赛。
Thank you, Ira.
谢谢你，艾拉。
Thank you, George.
谢谢你，乔治。
I appreciate it.
我很感激。
But remember, this is only round one.
但请记住，这只是第一轮。
There's another round after this.
此后还有另一轮。
Well, exactly.
嗯，确实如此。
That's exactly what I was going to say.
这正是我想说的。
You progressed to our bonus round.
您已进入我们的奖金回合。
Let's talk about that next round, because the first goal that America set for itself with the Paris Agreement is to cut 50% of our emissions by 2030.
让我们谈谈下一轮吧，因为美国在《巴黎协定》中为自己设定的第一个目标是到2030年减少50%的排放。
But the bigger goal is to cut all greenhouse gases as far as possible to get to net zero by 2050.
但更大的目标是尽可能减少所有温室气体排放，到 2050 年实现净零排放。
In your view, is there a credible path towards that that you can imagine actually happening?
在您看来，是否有一条可靠的途径可以想象实际发生的情况？
There's definitely a credible path.
肯定有一条可靠的路。
I think there is.
我认为有。
But like with the next eight years, it's going to be challenging and it requires us to make a choice to get on that path.
但就像未来八年一样，这将充满挑战，需要我们做出选择才能走上这条道路。
And a lot of it is just doing a lot more of what we've already been talking about.
其中很多只是做了更多我们已经讨论过的事情。
Not just making more buildings more energy efficient.
不仅仅是让更多的建筑更加节能。
We're making every single building more energy efficient.
我们正在使每座建筑更加节能。
We're electrifying those buildings.
我们正在为这些建筑物通电。
We're pulling all the emissions out of those buildings.
我们正在消除这些建筑物的所有排放物。
We're getting every single car and truck and bus and plane to zero emissions.
我们正在让每辆汽车、卡车、公共汽车和飞机实现零排放。
Every single thing in our transportation.
我们交通中的每一件事情。
When you say it this way, it just seems so big.
当你这样说的时候，它看起来太大了。
It's hard to fathom that that could actually happen.
很难想象这真的会发生。
I mean, it's massive.
我的意思是，它很大。
It is massive.
它是巨大的。
It is a huge, huge undertaking.
这是一项巨大、巨大的事业。
Some people describe it as like a wartime effort.
有些人将其描述为战时的努力。
I think that's right.
我认为这是对的。
Like it's massive to do this over the next just few decades.
就好像在接下来的几十年里要做到这一点是巨大的。
We're talking about 2050.
我们正在谈论 2050 年。
That's not that long from now.
距离现在已经不远了。
Well, that makes me feel not so super hopeful, just to say.
好吧，只是说，这让我感觉不太有希望。
But if we don't actually get there, we know the costs of inaction, of not moving there.
但如果我们没有真正实现这一目标，我们就会知道不采取行动、不采取行动的代价。
And they're not pretty.
而且它们并不漂亮。
So I'm talking about extreme events that flood Houston, or you know, swing across Florida.
所以我说的是淹没休斯顿的极端事件，或者你知道，席卷佛罗里达州的极端事件。
Heat waves in Southern California that lead to people dying.
南加州的热浪导致人们死亡。
When you start to add up all these health costs and also the insurance costs, the cost of rebuilding homes, it's so much larger than building solar panels and nuclear power plants and retrofitting buildings and replacing cars.
当你开始把所有这些健康费用、保险费用、重建房屋的费用加起来时，它比建造太阳能电池板和核电站、改造建筑物和更换汽车要大得多。
Well, listen, thank you so much for playing our game.
好吧，听着，非常感谢您玩我们的游戏。
Let's bring in some inappropriately cheerful game show music.
让我们引入一些不恰当的欢快游戏节目音乐。
And George, tell her what she's won.
乔治，告诉她她赢得了什么。
Well, Melissa, how about a brand new SUV?
那么，梅丽莎，一辆全新的 SUV 怎么样？
Ooh.
哦。
Two plane tickets to-- ugh.
两张机票——呃。
A subscription to Diesel and Steak Lovers magazine.
订阅《柴油和牛排爱好者》杂志。
Well, Melissa, this is perfect.
嗯，梅丽莎，这太完美了。
How about autographed copies of the collected works of Bill McKibben?
比尔·麦基本 (Bill McKibben) 的亲笔签名作品集怎么样？
That's more like it.
这更像是这样。
Well, listen, thanks again, Melissa.
好吧，听着，再次感谢，梅丽莎。
And George, take it away.
乔治，把它拿走。
Thanks so much, everybody.
非常感谢大家。
And we'll see you next time, if we're not all fleeing a wildfire or hurricane on You Bet Your Planet's Life.
如果我们不是都在逃离《你赌上你的星球的生命》中的野火或飓风，我们下次再见。
Act Three: You Didn’t Hear It From Me.
第三幕：你没有听到我的消息。
No, Really.
不，真的。
You Didn’t.
你没有。
Ira Glass Act 3-- You Didn't Hear It From Me.
艾拉·格拉斯第三幕——你没有听到我的消息。
No, really, you didn't.
不，真的，你没有。
This last game actually happened on another show, a podcast called Normal Gossip.
最后一场比赛实际上发生在另一个节目中，一个名为“Normal Gossip”的播客。
And if you haven't heard Normal Gossip, the way it works, people in the show basically dish about actual gossip.
如果你还没有听说过《正常八卦》，按照它的运作方式，节目中的人们基本上都会谈论真正的八卦。
Like true stories about normal, everyday people sent in by listeners.
就像听众发送的关于普通人的真实故事一样。
And last season, the producers recreated a version of-- you know that old game, telephone, where somebody whispers something to the person next to them who whispers it to the person next to them and on down the line.
上一季，制片人重新制作了一个版本——你知道那个老游戏，电话，有人对旁边的人低声说些什么，然后又对旁边的人低声耳语。
One of our producers, Sean Cole, has this rundown of what happened when they did a version of that on Normal Gossip and how it revealed some interesting things about the stories that we tell each other.
我们的制作人之一肖恩·科尔 (Sean Cole) 总结了他们在《普通八卦》中制作该版本时发生的情况，以及它如何揭示了我们彼此讲述的故事中的一些有趣的事情。
Here's Sean.
这是肖恩。
The folks at Normal Gossip, they created the game for a very practical reason.
Normal Gossip 的人们出于非常实际的原因创建了这款游戏。
While they were gearing up for season two, they got to talking about how long it had taken during season one for the guests to relax and settle into the conversation.
当他们为第二季做准备时，他们开始谈论第一季中客人花了多长时间才放松并融入对话。
And so we were having this brainstorming session where we were talking about ways that we could just give them some more time and space ahead of the recording to loosen up.
因此，我们进行了这次头脑风暴会议，讨论如何在录音前给他们更多的时间和空间来放松。
This is the producer of Normal Gossip, Alex Sujong Laughlin.
这是《正常八卦》的制片人亚历克斯·苏琼·劳克林。
And I came up with this idea that what if we had them play a game that is a game of gossip?
我想到了这个想法：如果我们让他们玩一个八卦游戏会怎么样？
Gossip itself, of course, is sort of like a game of telephone.
当然，八卦本身有点像电话游戏。
So they figured, let's just do that.
所以他们想，我们就这么做吧。
Alex grabbed one of the gossip stories from their inbox and read it to the first guest that they had.
亚历克斯从他们的收件箱中抓起一个八卦故事，并将其读给他们的第一位客人听。
And then recorded her telling it right back, just whatever that person could remember, played that for the second guest, had them tell it back and so on.
然后录下她立即复述的内容，只要那个人能记得的，就为第二位客人播放，让他们复述，依此类推。
I told them not to take notes, because you don't generally take notes when somebody's telling you a gossip story, right?
我告诉他们不要做笔记，因为当有人给你讲八卦故事时，你通常不会做笔记，对吗？
You're not like--
你不像——
Unless you're a gossip columnist, I suppose.
我想除非你是八卦专栏作家。
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
Unless you're me.
除非你是我。
So yeah, I said do the best you can.
所以是的，我说尽你所能。
If you don't remember something, that's fine.
如果你不记得什么，那也没关系。
If you feel like tweaking a detail for fun, you can.
如果您想调整细节以获得乐趣，您可以。
But for the most part, try and be pretty faithful to the story you heard.
但在大多数情况下，请尝试忠实于您听到的故事。
Alex didn't really expect anything interesting to happen.
亚历克斯并没有真正预料到会发生什么有趣的事情。
But then when she listened through to all the versions, she realized she was seeing in real time how gossip works, how a story can evolve and change.
但当她听完所有版本时，她意识到自己正在实时看到八卦是如何运作的，以及故事如何演变和变化。
That there was a logic to how it changed.
它的变化是有逻辑的。
Sure, there was some willy-nilly embellishing here and there.
当然，这里那里也有一些随意的修饰。
But for the most part, the changes were for a very specific reason.
但在大多数情况下，这些变化是出于非常具体的原因。
And I'm going to get to that.
我会谈到这一点。
But first, you need to hear the original version of the story, so that you can appreciate when we get there how different it was by the end of the game.
但首先，你需要听听故事的原始版本，这样当我们到达那里时你就能体会到游戏结束时有多么不同。
Yes, I have the text here.
是的，我这里有文字。
Sean Cole I asked Alex to read it to me.
肖恩·科尔 我让亚历克斯读给我听。
I should say with every gossip story they tell on the show, the names and all the identifying details are changed.
我应该说，他们在节目中讲述的每一个八卦故事，名字和所有识别细节都发生了变化。
So it's completely anonymized.
所以它是完全匿名的。
This story concerns two people who they called Kyle and Elliot.
这个故事涉及两个人，他们称之为凯尔和埃利奥特。
They started dating sometime before the pandemic.
他们在大流行之前的某个时候开始约会。
Kyle had grown up super religious and had been married to a woman.
凯尔从小就非常虔诚，并娶了一个女人。
But he came out, left his family, left the church, and moved to the city where he met Elliot.
但他出来了，离开了家人，离开了教堂，搬到了他遇见艾略特的城市。
And Elliot's really the main character of the story.
艾略特确实是故事的主角。
You need to know that he's part of this active group chat with some college friends where they talk about their lives.
您需要知道他是这个与一些大学朋友一起活跃的群聊的一部分，他们在群聊中谈论他们的生活。
Everyone in the group chat was obsessed with Kyle.
群聊中的每个人都对凯尔着迷。
He was so warm, genuine, thoughtful.
他是那么热情、真诚、体贴。
They move in together, adopt a cat, and are teaching it all kinds of tricks.
他们搬到了一起，收养了一只猫，并教它各种技巧。
Then Elliot proposes and Kyle proposes back.
然后艾略特求婚，凯尔也求婚。
It's so adorable.
真是太可爱了。
The pandemic hits.
疫情来袭。
And the group chat starts doing Zooms as you do.
群聊开始像您一样进行缩放。
Usually, significant others pop in and say hi.
通常，重要的其他人会突然过来打招呼。
And they all love to see Kyle.
他们都喜欢见到凯尔。
Around June, Elliot mentions that he's going home for a bit, doesn't mention Kyle.
六月左右，埃利奥特提到他要回家一段时间，但没有提到凯尔。
A few weeks later, the group Zooms and Kyle doesn't show up.
几周后，Zooms 和 Kyle 组合没有出现。
They ask where he is.
他们问他在哪里。
Elliot says, I didn't want to bring this up yet, but Kyle has actually left me.
埃利奥特说，我还不想提起这件事，但凯尔实际上已经离开了我。
Turns out Kyle just packed up and disappeared.
原来凯尔刚刚收拾好东西就失踪了。
Left the cat, no explanation, ghosted his fiance.
留下猫，不解释，鬼魂未婚夫。
He disappeared off social media.
他从社交媒体上消失了。
And nobody knows where he went.
没有人知道他去了哪里。
Elliot is crushed.
艾略特被压垮了。
So fast forward a year later.
一年后就这样快进了。
A friend of a friend is scrolling TikTok.
朋友的朋友正在浏览 TikTok。
And suddenly they see a viral video with Kyle.
突然，他们看到了一段与凯尔一起疯传的视频。
Turns out Kyle has reinvented himself on TikTok in the last year.
事实证明，凯尔去年在 TikTok 上重塑了自己。
He's suddenly super religious, but also still very much queer.
他突然变得超级虔诚，但也仍然很奇怪。
He seems to spend his videos making a lot of references to leaving a toxic relationship and loving yourself.
他似乎在视频中大量提到要摆脱有毒的关系并爱自己。
Our friend of a friend is like, what the fuck?
我们朋友的朋友就像，他妈的怎么了？
Kyle has millions of views, tons of followers.
凯尔拥有数百万的浏览量和大量的关注者。
Now we've tracked him down, but he's obviously obliquely talking shit about Elliot.
现在我们已经找到他了，但他显然在拐弯抹角地谈论艾略特。
What do you do?
你做什么工作？
Do you tell Elliot?
你告诉艾略特吗？
It ends with sort of a Dear Abby conundrum type question there.
它以一种亲爱的艾比难题类型的问题结束。
Anyway, that's where we start.
无论如何，这就是我们开始的地方。
There were eight guests listening to and repeating back some version of this story over the course of an eight week season.
在为期八周的演出期间，有八位客人聆听并重复了这个故事的某些版本。
It was quite literally a long game.
这确实是一场漫长的比赛。
And I'll just tell you right now.
我现在就告诉你。
The only parts of the story that didn't change practically at all were the very beginning.
故事中唯一几乎没有改变的部分是一开始。
There were two guys in a relationship together.
有两个人在一起。
Two guys.
两个家伙。
There is Elliot and there's Kyle, right?
有艾略特，有凯尔，对吧？
They start dating.
他们开始约会。
They like each other.
他们彼此喜欢。
They move in together.
他们搬到一起住。
And the very end, where the friends see the TikTok video and ask themselves the question.
最后，朋友们看到 TikTok 视频并问自己这个问题。
And the question is-- Man Do we tell Elliot or not?
问题是——伙计，我们要不要告诉艾略特？
Do we tell Elliot?
我们要告诉艾略特吗？
Man Should we tell him--
伙计，我们应该告诉他——
About this TikTok?
关于这个 TikTok？
Woman They don't know what they're supposed to do.
女人 他们不知道自己应该做什么。
Yeah, would you tell Elliot?
是的，你会告诉艾略特吗？
Man I'd tell Elliot in a heartbeat.
伙计，我会毫不犹豫地告诉埃利奥特。
Almost everything else became completely unrecognizable.
几乎其他一切都变得完全无法辨认。
By the way, Tobin Low, who was in Act 1, happened to be a guest on Normal Gossip when they did this.
顺便说一下，第一幕中的托宾·洛（Tobin Low）碰巧是《Normal Gossip》的嘉宾，当时他们这样做了。
Maybe you heard his voice in there.
也许你在那里听到了他的声音。
With the first couple of folks, the changes are relatively small.
对于前几个人来说，变化相对较小。
The very first guest, Danielle Henderson-- she's a TV writer-- she inserts this scene where Elliot discovers that Kyle has left.
第一位嘉宾丹妮尔·亨德森（Danielle Henderson）——她是一名电视编剧——她插入了艾略特发现凯尔离开的场景。
And then he goes back to their apartment that they share, their place that they share.
然后他回到他们共用的公寓，他们共用的地方。
And Kyle is gone.
凯尔走了。
He has packed up everything.
他已经把所有东西都收拾好了。
But it's still the same plot as the original.
但剧情还是和原著一样。
The second person, Kalyn Kahler, who writes about sports-- when she heard Danielle say that Kyle packed up everything, seems to have taken that to mean everything.
第二个人，凯琳·卡勒，写体育文章——当她听到丹妮尔说凯尔收拾好了所有东西时，她似乎认为这意味着一切。
Kyle is gone.
凯尔走了。
The apartment is empty.
公寓空无一人。
There is no note.
没有注释。
There is no trace of Kyle.
没有凯尔的踪迹。
It's like he never lived there.
就好像他从来没有住过那里一样。
He probably took all his furniture and food and whatever.
他可能拿走了所有的家具和食物等等。
She also-- I think inadvertently-- leaves out a pretty important detail at the end, the fact that Kyle is still gay.
她还——我认为无意中——在最后遗漏了一个非常重要的细节，即凯尔仍然是同性恋。
Probably just didn't think to mention it.
可能只是没想到提及而已。
Besides that, she casually ad libs this kind of loose dialogue in the beginning where Elliot's friends are all aflutter about meeting Kyle.
除此之外，她在一开始就随意地即兴发挥了这种松散的对话，艾略特的朋友们都为见到凯尔而兴奋不已。
Everyone is very curious, like who's Kyle?
大家都很好奇，比如凯尔是谁？
Elliot, introduce us to Kyle.
艾略特，给我们介绍一下凯尔。
We want to meet your new boyfriend.
我们想见见你的新男友。
Like you're so happy, how are things going?
看来你很高兴，事情进展得怎么样？
But those few alterations set us up for some real misunderstandings that are about to take off with the third person, Tracy Clayton of the podcast Strong Black Legends.
但这些小小的改动让我们产生了一些真正的误解，这些误解即将与第三人称播客“强黑人传奇”的特雷西·克莱顿产生。
She hears this part.
她听到这部分。
Everyone is very curious, like who's Kyle?
大家都很好奇，比如凯尔是谁？
Elliot, introduce us to Kyle.
艾略特，给我们介绍一下凯尔。
And takes it to mean that the friend group never does meet Kyle, which is very different.
并认为这意味着朋友组从未见过凯尔，这是非常不同的。
That and the missing detail of Kyle still being gay leads to this ending from Tracy.
这一点以及凯尔仍然是同性恋的缺失细节导致了特雷西的结局。
Again, the friends are scrolling TikTok.
朋友们又开始刷抖音了。
And so they come across a TikTok of a very evangelical, like born-again Christian, very strict.
所以他们遇到了一个非常福音派的 TikTok，就像重生的基督徒一样，非常严格。
Everything that's not in the Bible is wrong type of person.
圣经中没有的一切都是错误类型的人。
And he's just going off and saying all of this terrible stuff.
他就开始说这些可怕的话。
And probably very anti-trans, anti anti-racism, anti-everything good.
可能非常反跨性别者、反种族主义、反一切美好事物。
And it's just going off about all this wild stuff.
所有这些疯狂的事情都在发生。
But then this man starts talking about this terrible, toxic relationship that he was in.
但随后这个男人开始谈论他所处的这段可怕的、有毒的关系。
And dropping all these hints, but not really saying too much, so nobody really knew if he was talking about Elliot or not.
并放弃了所有这些暗示，但并没有说太多，所以没有人真正知道他是否在谈论艾略特。
But the friends are like, he's definitely talking about Elliot.
但朋友们都说，他肯定在谈论埃利奥特。
That's so fucked up.
那就太操蛋了
Also, this new, somewhat more sinister version of Kyle took even more from the apartment than he did before.
而且，这个新的、更加险恶的凯尔版本从公寓里拿走了比以前更多的东西。
The cat is gone.
猫不见了。
Sean Cole First mention of Kyle taking the cat with him.
肖恩·科尔第一次提到凯尔带着猫。
All of those embellishments are crystallized and even built upon in the fourth iteration of the story, which is sort of tag team told by Bobby Finger and Lindsey Weber, who host another gossip podcast called Who?
所有这些修饰都被具体化，甚至在故事的第四次迭代中得到了体现，这有点像鲍比·芬格和林赛·韦伯讲述的双打团队，他们主持了另一个八卦播客《谁？
Weekly.
每周。
More than anyone else, they really tried to imagine themselves into the heads of the friend group.
他们比任何人都更努力地把自己想象成朋友圈的领袖。
Like when Elliot tells them, I just moved in with this guy Kyle and we got a cat together.
就像埃利奥特告诉他们的那样，我刚刚搬去和凯尔这个家伙住在一起，我们一起养了一只猫。
And his friends are assumedly like, who?
据推测，他的朋友是谁？
How do we not know this person?
我们怎么会不认识这个人呢？
Why-- you moved in with somebody.
为什么——你搬去和某人住在一起了。
You got a cat with them.
你和他们一起养了一只猫。
And we don't even know who it is.
我们甚至不知道他是谁。
But you know what, we're so happy for you.
但你知道吗，我们为你感到高兴。
We're going to feel positive about this.
我们对此会感到积极。
This is how I would feel, I guess, if a friend of mine did this to me.
我想，如果我的朋友这样对我，我也会有这种感觉。
Although I would be a little mad, but that's OK.
虽然我会有点生气，但没关系。
That's my thing.
那是我的事。
Not these people--
不是这些人——
I'd feel a little sus.
我会觉得有点苏。
In the back of my head, I'd be a little sus.
在我的内心深处，我会有点怀疑。
Yeah, because you can't just drop in the group chat that's active all fucking day long, oh, hey, by the way, I live with someone and we have a cat.
是的，因为你不能只是加入他妈的整天活跃的群聊，哦，嘿，顺便说一句，我和某人住在一起，我们有一只猫。
Yeah, I get the feeling the friends haven't even like seen a photo-- or the friends have seen a photo.
是的，我感觉朋友们甚至不喜欢看照片——或者朋友们看过照片。
Wait, no, the friends have not seen a photo.
等等，不，朋友们还没有看到照片。
I think the friends never even saw a photo of this person.
我想朋友们甚至都没见过这个人的照片。
Bobby, we're telling the story.
鲍比，我们正在讲这个故事。
It's our story, so you can say that if you just want to say.
这是我们的故事，所以如果你想说的话就可以说。
The friends never saw a photo of this person.
朋友们从未见过这个人的照片。
They don't even know what this person looks like.
他们甚至不知道这个人长什么样。
They just know their name is Kyle.
他们只知道自己的名字叫凯尔。
You get the sense, listening to Bobby and Lindsey, that they know they're embellishing some of the details.
听鲍比和林赛的讲话，你会感觉到他们知道自己正在修饰一些细节。
But they're also hewing pretty closely to the basic plot points they heard in Tracy Clayton's version.
但他们也非常接近他们在特雷西·克莱顿版本中听到的基本情节点。
So Kyle robs Elliot blind, takes the cat.
所以凯尔盲目地抢劫了埃利奥特，带走了猫。
Elliot's crushed.
艾略特崩溃了。
The friends are trying to be supportive.
朋友们正在努力提供支持。
The friends are-- one of them, at least, is on their TikTok page on their FYP--
这些朋友——至少其中一个在他们的 FYP 的 TikTok 页面上——
FYP is the For You page.
FYP 是“为您推荐”页面。
Bobby Finger And on the FYP is a video of an evangelical TikTok influencer who is apparently extremely religious, extremely fundamentalist, has really problematic opinions--
Bobby Finger 在 FYP 上有一个福音派 TikTok 影响者的视频，他显然非常虔诚，极端原教旨主义，观点确实有问题——
And is viral.
并且具有病毒性。
Bobby Finger And is like, here's my lifestyle.
Bobby Finger：这就是我的生活方式。
I'm viral for these horrible opinions.
我对这些可怕的观点很感兴趣。
Oh, look at my cute cat Greg.
哦，看看我可爱的猫格雷格。
And then the friends are like, wait--
然后朋友们就会说，等等——
Wait, I have another twist.
等等，我还有另一个转折。
He's like, I'm straight.
他说，我是直的。
That's the--
那就是——
Right.
对。
Yes.
是的。
Lindsey Weber Like he's like, I was in this awful relationship, but I found God.
林赛·韦伯 就像他一样，我处于这种糟糕的关系中，但我找到了上帝。
Here's my cat, Greg.
这是我的猫，格雷格。
I'm straight.
我是直的。
Lindsey Weber And my ex was toxic.
林赛·韦伯 我的前任有毒。
And the friends see the TikTok and they're sharing it.
朋友们看到了 TikTok 并且正在分享它。
And they're like, is this about Elliot?
他们说，这是关于艾略特的吗？
This, of course, is a huge change.
这当然是一个巨大的变化。
They're naming the cat Greg.
他们给这只猫命名为格雷格。
I'm kidding.
我在开玩笑。
The fact of Kyle now being straight.
凯尔现在是异性恋的事实。
Funnily, this is the first iteration of the story where the detail of Kyle being previously married to a woman was left out.
有趣的是，这是故事的第一次迭代，凯尔之前与一名女性结婚的细节被省略了。
So in the original, Kyle was with a woman in the beginning of the story.
所以在原著中，凯尔在故事开始时和一个女人在一起。
Now he's with women at the end.
现在他终于和女人在一起了。
And more and more, Kyle is becoming a villain.
凯尔越来越成为一个恶棍。
Until by the fifth telling of the story, he's out and out malicious, even criminal.
直到第五次讲述这个故事时，他才变得彻头彻尾的恶意，甚至是犯罪分子。
That version, the fifth one, was the one told by our very own Tobin Low.
第五个版本是我们自己的托宾·洛讲述的版本。
They are also getting a cat together.
他们还一起养了一只猫。
Let's call the cat Mr. Mistoffelees from Cats the musical, as one does.
我们姑且称呼音乐剧《猫》中的那只猫为米斯托菲利斯先生吧。
And I know this will sound biased because I work with him.
我知道这听起来有偏见，因为我和他一起工作。
But his version is really one of my favorites in this reverse Groundhog Day movie about Elliot and Kyle.
但在这部关于艾略特和凯尔的反向土拨鼠日电影中，他的版本确实是我最喜欢的版本之一。
Cut to one of his friends in the middle of the night scrolling through TikTok, as one does, comes across a TikTok on their For You page.
镜头切换到他的一位朋友在半夜滚动浏览 TikTok 时，他在他们的 For You 页面上发现了 TikTok。
And it is this guy talking about how he catfishes people.
这家伙正在谈论他如何钓鱼。
His whole thing is that he pretends to be gay.
他的全部事情就是假装自己是同性恋。
He gets in these relationships.
他融入了这些关系。
He's actually like a very religious, conservative person.
他实际上是一个非常虔诚、保守的人。
And so he's like catfishing these dudes to be in relationships with him.
所以他就像是在诱骗这些家伙与他建立关系。
And it's all a sham.
这都是骗局。
It's all a sham.
这都是骗局。
And so then he goes into like I recently did this to a guy.
然后他就好像我最近对一个人做了这样的事情一样。
We got a cat together, Mr. Mistoffelees.
我们一起养了一只猫，米斯托菲利斯先生。
And then I took him for all he's worth.
然后我就接受了他的全部价值。
And actually, it was a really bad toxic relationship.
事实上，这是一段非常糟糕的有毒关系。
Did you hear what happened there?
你听说那里发生了什么事吗？
Basically, Tobin took these loose facts from Bobby and Lindsey's telling-- the empty apartment, Kyle being straight, and very religious and conservative-- and he combines all those things.
基本上，托宾从鲍比和林赛的讲述中获取了这些松散的事实——空荡荡的公寓，凯尔是异性恋，非常虔诚和保守——他将所有这些东西结合起来。
Into a catfishing scam artist, who is not only doing that, but bragging about it on TikTok.
成为一名鲶鱼诈骗者，他不仅这样做，还在 TikTok 上吹嘘这一点。
This is Alex again, the Normal Gossip producer.
这又是亚历克斯，正常八卦的制作人。
Which seems to me like-- honestly, this is the turn that makes the least logical sense to me.
在我看来，老实说，这是对我来说最没有逻辑意义的转折。
Sorry, Tobin.
对不起，托宾。
But like if he's a scam artist, why would you be bragging about it?
但如果他是一个骗子，你为什么要吹嘘呢？
Then your scam is ruined.
那么你的骗局就毁了。
You know?
你知道？
And it's funny, because Tobin has said multiple times, he thought he was telling it perfectly.
这很有趣，因为托宾已经说过很多次了，他认为自己说得很完美。
I stand by what I said.
我坚持我所说的。
I thought that I told it exactly as it was told to me.
我以为我说的和别人告诉我的完全一样。
This, of course, is my colleague Tobin Low.
当然，这是我的同事托宾·洛（Tobin Low）。
He deigned to consent to an interview for this story.
他屈尊同意接受本文的采访。
And if you had asked me afterwards, the only liberty I was very conscious of taking was changing the cat's name, which I thought was just fun and harmless.
如果你事后问我，我非常有意识地采取的唯一自由就是改变猫的名字，我认为这只是有趣且无害。
To be fair, Bobby did use the word scam one time in his and Lindsey's telling of the story.
公平地说，鲍比在他和林赛讲述这个故事时确实曾经使用过“骗局”这个词。
But there was nothing about catfishing.
但没有任何关于鲶鱼的事情。
And certainly no mention of multiple victims of same.
当然也没有提及同一事件的多个受害者。
Tobin ultimately heard the original version of the story.
托宾最终听到了这个故事的原始版本。
And I had to wonder what he thought about it.
我不得不想知道他对此有何想法。
I think I was surprised that they were happy at one point.
我想我对他们在某一时刻感到高兴感到惊讶。
Or like they had a really good relationship.
或者说他们的关系非常好。
Right.
正确的。
Tobin Low I think that I would have assumed that that would survive in some way in the retellings.
托宾·洛（Tobin Low） 我认为我会假设这会在重述中以某种方式保留下来。
The original's just kind of sad.
原著有点悲伤。
And then it becomes extraordinary in a way that like by the end, people's hurt is not the focus.
然后它就变得非同寻常了，就像到最后，人们的伤害不再是焦点。
Yeah.
是的。
Tobin Low It's like sort of how wild people's actions are and like you've sort of drifted far away from the original, smaller, more human hurt.
托宾·洛（Tobin Low）：这就像人们的行为是多么疯狂，就像你已经远离了最初的、更小、更人性的伤害。
And he has a theory as to how they all collectively got there.
他有一个关于他们如何共同到达那里的理论。
In retrospect, I think what happened is that everyone knew that there was this thing coming in the story where Kyle was going to leave Elliot.
回想起来，我认为发生的事情是每个人都知道凯尔要离开艾略特的故事中会发生这样的事情。
And that's sort of like-- all roads lead to this big moment in the story.
这有点像——所有的道路都通向故事中的这个重要时刻。
And I think to some degree, we were all reverse engineering to that moment.
我认为在某种程度上，我们都对那一刻进行了逆向工程。
Like how do you explain the beats of what happened?
比如你如何解释所发生的事情？
How do you explain everyone's actions, so that that makes sense and lands really hard?
你如何解释每个人的行为，这样既有意义又很难落地？
Right.
正确的。
Tobin Low So that you recreate the same gasp that you had when you heard it.
托宾·洛 (Tobin Low) 让您重现听到时的喘息声。
Right.
正确的。
Tobin Low So that I can create that moment again.
托宾·洛（Tobin Low）这样我就可以再次创造那个时刻。
Because in the original, there is no explanation.
因为原著中没有任何解释。
And you're just kind of like, what the heck?
你只是想，到底是什么？
Yes.
是的。
Sean Cole And that's an uncomfortable feeling.
肖恩·科尔：这是一种不舒服的感觉。
Right, exactly.
对，完全正确。
Sean Cole Just like it is in life.
肖恩·科尔 就像生活中一样。
But of course, as Tobin had to remind me, the original story is life.
但当然，正如托宾不得不提醒我的那样，最初的故事就是生活。
That version wasn't part of a game.
该版本不是游戏的一部分。
It really happened.
这真的发生了。
Weirdly, there was only one more major change to the story after Tobin's version.
奇怪的是，在托宾的版本之后，这个故事只有一个重大的改变。
When the comedian Brian Park tells it next, the guy in the TikTok video is not Kyle but one of Kyle's many unsuspecting victims, warning other TikTokers to watch out for this predator, which of course, makes a lot more sense.
当喜剧演员布莱恩·帕克接下来讲述时，TikTok 视频中的那个人不是凯尔，而是凯尔众多毫无戒心的受害者之一，他警告其他 TikTok 用户小心这个掠夺者，这当然更有意义。
Oh, and there's no mention of them getting a cat.
哦，没有提到他们养猫。
And then the two versions after that are basically identical to Brian's.
之后的两个版本与布莱恩的版本基本相同。
It's like there were no more questions to be answered.
就好像没有更多的问题需要回答了。
No gaps in understanding.
理解上没有差距。
All of the reverse engineering Tobin talked about was complete, which makes you wonder if there's a natural end to a game like this.
托宾谈到的所有逆向工程都是完整的，这让你想知道这样的游戏是否会自然结束。
If you can only retell the story so many times before it plateaus, stays static.
如果你只能在故事趋于稳定、保持静止之前将故事重复讲很多次。
I bet you that happens to urban myths, too.
我敢打赌都市神话也会发生这种情况。
Alex Sujong Laughlin says watching the story go through all of those changes was kind of thrilling.
亚历克斯·苏琼·劳克林 (Alex Sujong Laughlin) 表示，看着这个故事经历所有这些变化有点令人兴奋。
It was like seeing your own little monster come alive on the laboratory table.
这就像看到自己的小怪物在实验室的桌子上活了过来。
But by the last couple two, three versions of the story, she had this other feeling as well.
但到了故事的最后两个、三个版本，她也有了另一种感觉。
It makes me think of the way that people become caricatures to each other.
这让我想起人们如何成为彼此的讽刺漫画。
And it just feels like, you know, I don't know.
感觉就像，你知道，我不知道。
Not to be all didactic and stuff, but we're talking the night before election day.
并不是说教之类的，但我们是在选举日的前一天晚上谈论的。
And I've watched this play out for months, the way that people just get flattened into you know, conservative rednecks who hate everybody or radical feminazis who want to kill babies.
我已经观察了这件事好几个月了，人们就这样被压扁成你知道的，仇恨所有人的保守乡巴佬或想要杀死婴儿的激进女权主义者。
Right.
正确的。
Alex Sujong Laughlin And it just-- it bums me out to see it happen so quickly, even in such a low stakes story.
亚历克斯·苏琼·劳克林（Alex Sujong Laughlin）即使是在如此低风险的故事中，看到它发生得如此之快，我还是感到很沮丧。
It's sort of like all of us are playing the game, all the time.
这有点像我们所有人一直在玩这个游戏。
Yeah.
是的。
And like maybe in those moments when you feel like you want to jump to a conclusion or flatten somebody because it makes the story better, maybe don't.
也许在那些时刻，当你觉得你想要跳出结论或压倒某人，因为这会让故事变得更好，也许不会。
You know?
你知道？
Maybe don't.
也许不。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I would like to create fewer of these monster Kyles, even if they're fictional.
我想创造更少的怪物凯尔斯，即使它们是虚构的。
That seems like a worthy slogan on behalf of decency and fairness to others.
这似乎是一个代表着对他人的正派和公平的有价值的口号。
Let's create fewer monster Kyles.
让我们创造更少的怪物凯尔斯。
Only a handful of people in the world would understand what it means, of course.
当然，世界上只有少数人能理解这意味着什么。
But just like the juiciest gossip, maybe it would spread.
但就像最有趣的八卦一样，也许它会传播开来。
Sean Cole is one of the producers of our program.
肖恩·科尔是我们节目的制作人之一。
To hear the full episode that Normal Gossip did where all this plays out, you can find that and their other episodes wherever you get your podcasts.
要收听《Normal Gossip》播放的完整剧集，您可以在任何播客中找到该剧集以及他们的其他剧集。
By the way, the friends did tell Elliot about the TikTok.
顺便说一句，朋友们确实告诉了埃利奥特有关 TikTok 的事。
He laughed.
他笑了。
Credits Ira Glass Our program was produced today by Tobin Low.
图片来源 Ira Glass 今天我们的节目由 Tobin Low 制作。
People who put together today's show include Elna Baker, Chris Benderev, Zoe Chace, Sean Cole, Michal Comite, Aviva DeKornfeld, Valerie Kipnis, Stowe Nelson, Katherine Rae Mondo, Nadia Reiman, Ryan Rumery, Charlotte Sleeper, Lilly Sullivan, Frances Swanson, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, Julie Whitaker, and Diane Wu.
今天节目的制作人包括 Elna Baker、Chris Benderev、Zoe Chace、Sean Cole、Michal Comite、Aviva DeKornfeld、Valerie Kipnis、Stowe Nelson、Katherine Rae Mondo、Nadia Reiman、Ryan Rumery、Charlotte Sleeper、Lilly Sullivan、Frances Swanson、Christopher Swetala、Matt Tierney、Julie Whitaker 和 Diane Wu。
Our managing editor is Sarah Abdurrahman.
我们的总编辑是萨拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sarah Abdurrahman)。
Our senior editor is David Kestenbaum.
我们的高级编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。
Our executive editor is Emanuele Berry.
我们的执行编辑是 Emanuele Berry。
Special thanks today to John Bistline, Cen Qian, Justin Ellis, Kelsey McKinney, Jae Towle-Viera, and Geoff Triplett.
今天特别感谢 John Bistline、Cen qian、Justin Ellis、Kelsey McKinney、Jae Towle-Viera 和 Geoff Triplett。
Melissa Lott, our contestant in the climate game show-- she has a podcast of her own, The Big Switch, about the transition to a net zero world.
梅丽莎·洛特（Melissa Lott）是我们气候游戏节目的参赛者，她有一个自己的播客“The Big Switch”，讲述向净零世界的过渡。
Our website, where right now you can find all kinds of merch-- onesies, t-shirts, sweatshirts, Public Radio tattoos for your holiday shopping-- thisamericanlife.org.
现在您可以在我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org 上找到各种商品——连体衣、T 恤、运动衫、公共广播纹身，供您假日购物。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Special thanks as always to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地特别感谢我们计划的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
He's actually on his way to the office right now, probably because I sent him this.
他现在实际上正在去办公室的路上，可能是因为我给他发了这个。
Torey Malatia, come on down.
托里·马拉蒂亚，下来吧。
You're the next contestant on This American Life.
您是《美国生活》的下一位参赛者。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week, with more stories of This American Life.
下周将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
This American Life This American Life 与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。