785: Through the Looking Glass - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #785 | November 25, 2022 785: Through the Looking Glass Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 785 集 | 2022 年 11 月 25 日 785：镜中奇遇 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass In Ukraine, the government has set up this phone line.
序言：序言 Ira Glass 在乌克兰，政府设立了这条电话线。
It's for soldiers to call-- Russian soldiers-- if they want to surrender.
如果士兵想投降，可以打电话给他们——俄罗斯士兵。
[CONNECTING TONE] Russian Soldier [RUSSIAN SPEECH]
[连接音] 俄罗斯士兵 [俄语语音]
Ira Glass Ukraine's says over 3,500 soldiers have texted or called the number.
乌克兰 Ira Glass 表示，已有 3,500 多名士兵发短信或拨打了该号码。
One of my coworkers, Valerie Kipnis, has been looking into this hotline, and helpfully, speaks Russian.
我的一位同事瓦莱丽·基普尼斯 (Valerie Kipnis) 一直在关注这条热线，她会说俄语，很有帮助。
So what did they just say?
那么他们刚才说了什么？
So they said, hello, to one another, and then the guy asked, is this Ukraine?
所以他们互相说，你好，然后那个人问，这是乌克兰吗？
And the guy on the hotline answered, yeah, this is Ukraine.
热线电话里的人回答说，是的，这里是乌克兰。
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Valerie Kipnis And then, the soldier said, I got a text that if we wish to surrender, call this number.
[俄语演讲] Valerie Kipnis 然后，士兵说，我收到一条短信，如果我们想投降，请拨打这个号码。
He got a text?
他有短信吗？
Valerie Kipnis Yeah, people pass around the number on social media and Telegram.
Valerie Kipnis 是的，人们在社交媒体和 Telegram 上传播这个号码。
There's even a website for it.
甚至还有一个网站。
It's called Hochy-Zhit dot com.
它被称为 Hochy-Zhit dot com。
And that means-- Valerie Kipnis "I want to live" dot com.
这意味着——瓦莱丽·基普尼斯（Valerie Kipnis）“我想活下去”网络公司。
That's very direct.
这非常直接。
Valerie Kipnis Yeah.
瓦莱丽·基普尼斯 是的。
On it, it reads, "Servicemen of the Russian armed forces, do you notice that you're greeted not with flowers, but with fire and curses?
上面写着：“俄罗斯武装部队的军人，你们注意到迎接你们的不是鲜花，而是火焰和咒骂吗？
Do you notice that your commanders run away first?
你注意到你的指挥官先逃跑了吗？
Save your life, for yourself and your family.
拯救你的生命，为了你自己和你的家人。
Stop fighting for other people's slogans.
不要再为别人的口号而战。
Contact us.
联系我们。
Save your life."
救救你的命。”
One interesting thing is that the guy doesn't seem to know if he can actually believe them.
一件有趣的事情是，这家伙似乎不知道他是否真的可以相信他们。
He's questioning if he can trust them.
他在质疑自己是否可以信任他们。
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Valerie Kipnis He's saying, you won't be cutting our balls off?
[俄语演讲] Valerie Kipnis 他是说，你不会砍掉我们的蛋蛋吧？
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Valerie Kipnis And then, the hotline guy answers, no, those are myths you guys are being fed.
[俄语演讲] Valerie Kipnis 然后，热线人员回答说，不，这些都是你们被灌输的神话。
No one's going to be cutting anybody.
没有人会砍伤任何人。
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Valerie Kipnis Don't worry.
[俄语演讲] Valerie Kipnis 别担心。
Wait, but can I ask you, like, why would somebody who's calling this number-- like, why would they trust them?
等等，但我可以问你，为什么拨打这个号码的人会信任他们？
Well, obviously, it's a scary decision, and they have to judge it for themselves.
嗯，显然，这是一个可怕的决定，他们必须自己判断。
But on the website, it says, you know, we follow the Geneva Conventions for the treatment of prisoners of war.
但在网站上，它说，你知道，我们遵守《日内瓦公约》来对待战俘。
And they say they guarantee certain things-- three meals a day, medical service, legal support from international organizations, and regular communication with relatives.
他们说他们保证某些东西——一日三餐、医疗服务、国际组织的法律支持以及与亲属的定期沟通。
Well, there's a bunch of stuff about, how does this actually work?
嗯，有很多东西，这实际上是如何工作的？
Like, how do I surrender?
比如，我该如何投降？
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Valerie Kipnis Where should we come by?
[俄语演讲] Valerie Kipnis 我们应该去哪里？
The soldier asks.
士兵问道。
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Valerie Kipnis The hotline guy says, if you're fighting, then you're probably located in a certain region.
[俄语演讲] Valerie Kipnis 热线人员说，如果你们在打架，那么你们可能位于某个地区。
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Valerie Kipnis Well, yeah.
[俄语演讲] Valerie Kipnis 嗯，是的。
And you'll come pick us up?
你会来接我们吗？
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Valerie Kipnis Yeah.
[俄语演讲] Valerie Kipnis 是的。
We need to understand where you are and whether you really want to surrender.
我们需要了解你在哪里以及你是否真的想投降。
For that, I need your information, and then I'll contact you.
为此，我需要您的信息，然后我会与您联系。
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Valerie Kipnis And then, you can surrender, if you wish.
[俄语演讲] Valerie Kipnis 然后，如果你愿意的话，你可以投降。
Yeah.
是的。
On the call, you can kind of hear him trying to make the decision of whether to do this or not.
在电话中，你可以听到他试图做出是否这样做的决定。
We didn't even want to come here.
我们甚至不想来这里。
We were ordered.
我们被命令了。
Now, I'm thinking about what I can do.
现在，我在想我能做什么。
The guy in the hotline says, so, as I'm telling you, if you want to, you can surrender, and then return back home.
热线电话里的人说，所以，正如我告诉你的，如果你愿意，你可以自首，然后回家。
Please understand there's a Geneva convention that says that a combatant has no criminal liability, so long as he did not commit war crimes, in which case, you'll be returned home through a prisoner swap.
请理解，日内瓦公约规定，战斗人员只要没有犯下战争罪，就没有刑事责任，在这种情况下，您将通过战俘交换回国。
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Valerie Kipnis The soldier says, "Understood."
[俄语演讲] Valerie Kipnis 士兵说：“明白。”
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Valerie Kipnis Thank you.
[俄语演讲] 瓦莱丽·基普尼斯 谢谢。
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Valerie Kipnis The hotline guy says, yeah, call any time.
[俄语演讲] Valerie Kipnis 热线人员说，是的，随时打电话。
Yeah.
是的。
Ira Glass Do we have any idea, like, whether he went through with it?
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）我们是否知道他是否经历过这一切？
Yeah.
是的。
Ira Glass Were you able to find anybody who actually used the hotline, and then surrendered?
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：你能找到任何真正使用热线然后投降的人吗？
So I spent a lot of time trying to find someone who had done that, and I stumbled across an interview with a guy who tried.
所以我花了很多时间试图找到这样做的人，并且我偶然发现了对一个尝试过的人的采访。
And he told his whole story.
他讲述了他的整个故事。
So this is the guy.
这就是这个人。
Ira Glass Tell me about him.
艾拉·格拉斯 跟我说说他吧。
He's young, 22 years old, kind of lanky.
他很年轻，22岁，有点瘦长。
He was studying to be a computer programmer, and then was drafted into the army last fall.
他正在学习成为一名计算机程序员，然后去年秋天应征入伍。
Because they have, like, mandatory military service in Russia, still.
因为他们仍然像俄罗斯一样必须服兵役。
Yeah.
是的。
Every Russian guy has to do it.
每个俄罗斯人都必须这样做。
And there, he was assigned to be a rifleman and an assistant grenade launcher.
在那里，他被分配担任步枪手和助理榴弹发射器。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Valerie Kipnis But he had friends in Ukraine.
瓦莱丽·基普尼斯（Valerie Kipnis）但他在乌克兰有朋友。
And from the start of the invasion, he was very skeptical of the war.
从入侵一开始，他就对战争非常怀疑。
No, at least not right away.
不，至少不是马上。
But he says he has a close friend who was sent into combat and dies the first day of the war.
但他说，他有一位亲密的朋友，他被派往战场，并在战争的第一天就去世了。
Oh, wow.
哦，哇。
Valerie Kipnis Yeah.
瓦莱丽·基普尼斯 是的。
And then, he starts talking to his other friend, the only person he really trusts, who's in the army with him.
然后，他开始与他的另一个朋友交谈，他唯一真正信任的人，和他一起在军队里。
And they start talking about, maybe we should surrender.
他们开始谈论，也许我们应该投降。
Like, maybe we should leave.
就像，也许我们应该离开。
And at first, they're on the same page.
一开始，他们的想法是一致的。
But then, the closer they get to the front line, the less on-board his friend starts to get.
但随后，他们越接近前线，他的朋友就越不参与其中。
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Interviewer [RUSSIAN SPEECH]
[俄语演讲] 采访者 [俄语演讲]
And one night, after he gets news of a successful counteroffensive in Kharkiv, he decides to go alone.
一天晚上，当他得知哈尔科夫反攻成功的消息后，他决定独自前往。
He's actually in Russia.
他实际上在俄罗斯。
That's where he's based.
那是他的基地。
And he says, after an eight-hour shift, he walks out of the barracks, heads west with a map and compass, and walks for two days.
他说，八小时轮班后，他走出军营，拿着地图和指南针向西走，走了两天。
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Interviewer [RUSSIAN SPEECH]
[俄语演讲] 采访者 [俄语演讲]
This seems so dangerous.
这看起来很危险。
Like, the Ukrainians could see him coming and just decide to shoot him.
就像，乌克兰人看到他来了，就决定开枪射杀他。
Yeah.
是的。
Or the Russians could see him fleeing.
或者俄罗斯人可能会看到他逃跑。
And after walking, finally, he makes it to the border.
步行之后，他终于到达了边境。
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Valerie Kipnis And that's when he calls the hotline.
[俄语演讲] Valerie Kipnis 就在那时他拨打了热线。
The interviewer asks him about it.
面试官问他这个问题。
So it's one of these two Ukrainian YouTubers who seem to have some connection with the Ukrainian government.
这两位乌克兰 YouTuber 中的一位似乎与乌克兰政府有一些联系。
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Valerie Kipnis The soldier says he heard about the hotline from friends living in Ukraine, and also, this girl, a good friend of his.
[俄语演讲] Valerie Kipnis 这名士兵说，他从居住在乌克兰的朋友那里听说了热线电话，还有这个女孩，他的好朋友。
The host asks, what's her name?
主持人问，她叫什么名字？
She'll probably watch this.
她可能会看这个。
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Valerie Kipnis He says, her name is Anya.
[俄语演讲] Valerie Kipnis 他说，她的名字叫安雅。
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Valerie Kipnis He reaches the hotline over Telegram.
[俄语演讲] Valerie Kipnis 他通过 Telegram 拨打了热线电话。
They told him to make his way to a village in Ukraine, where Ukrainian servicemen would be waiting for him.
他们告诉他前往乌克兰的一个村庄，乌克兰军人会在那里等他。
He got his last bits of energy together and started to make his way over.
他积攒起最后一点力气，开始前行。
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Valerie Kipnis When I got to where they told me to go, it was sunset, not totally dark yet.
[俄语演讲] Valerie Kipnis 当我到达他们告诉我去的地方时，已经是日落时分，还没有完全黑。
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Valerie Kipnis And I just looked at the village for a long time.
[俄语演讲] Valerie Kipnis 我看了这个村庄很长时间。
Truth be told, I was scared I wouldn't make it, that I'd just get shot.
说实话，我很害怕自己无法成功，害怕自己会被枪杀。
That was the scariest part.
那是最可怕的部分。
And then, the interviewer interrupts.
然后，面试官打断了。
He says, seeing as you're here now, you didn't get shot.
他说，既然你现在在这里，你就没有被枪杀。
And he says, yeah, but I know what I look like in a Russian uniform.
他说，是的，但我知道我穿上俄罗斯制服是什么样子。
There could be an incident where I would get shot without any questions.
可能会发生这样的事件，我毫无疑问就会被枪杀。
So what happens.
那么会发生什么。
Valerie Kipnis So once he gets there, he meets a Ukrainian woman and asks her for directions.
瓦莱丽·基普尼斯 (Valerie Kipnis) 到达那里后，他遇到了一名乌克兰妇女并向她问路。
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Valerie Kipnis She says, my kids can walk you there.
[俄语演讲] Valerie Kipnis 她说，我的孩子们可以带你去那里。
They're going to come back alive, right?
他们一定会活着回来的，对吗？
And he swears that he won't hurt anyone.
并且他发誓不会伤害任何人。
So the kids walk him to the school gymnasium.
于是孩子们送他去学校体育馆。
He gives the boy his pocketknife as a "thank you." And then, he's in--
他给了男孩他的小刀作为“谢谢”。然后，他就在——
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Interviewer [RUSSIAN SPEECH]
[俄语演讲] 采访者 [俄语演讲]
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Valerie Kipnis Not once.
[俄语演讲] Valerie Kipnis 一次也没有。
How about tortured?
被折磨又怎样？
Russian Soldier [RUSSIAN SPEECH]
俄罗斯士兵 [俄语语音]
Never.
从来没有。
In fact, they offered us candy and sweets.
事实上，他们给我们提供了糖果和甜点。
Though, I should point out, the UN has documented human rights abuses against Russian prisoners of war in Ukraine.
不过，我应该指出，联合国记录了乌克兰境内俄罗斯战俘的人权受到侵犯的情况。
They weren't reported to be systematic.
没有报道称它们是系统性的。
Yeah.
是的。
Well, what about the fact that they're allowing video interviews with prisoners of war to go online?
那么，他们允许对战俘的视频采访在网上进行呢？
Yeah, that's potentially a violation of the Geneva Conventions.
是的，这可能违反《日内瓦公约》。
There are rules in there about not turning prisoners of war into subjects of public curiosity.
其中有规定不得将战俘变成公众好奇的对象。
So then, after that, he's basically in a POW camp, like, waiting for a prisoner swap to go home?
那么，在那之后，他基本上就在战俘营里，等待囚犯交换回家？
I'm not sure he wants to go back.
我不确定他想回去。
And I'm not sure what would happen to him if he did.
我不确定如果他这样做的话会发生什么。
He's given his full name on YouTube, admitting publicly he deserted the Russian army.
他在 YouTube 上公布了自己的全名，公开承认自己逃离了俄罗斯军队。
Also, he says that he doesn't believe in Russia's version of the war.
此外，他还表示他不相信俄罗斯版本的战争。
Like he says in the video, you're on your way to kill innocent people that are just defending their own country.
就像他在视频中所说的那样，你正在杀害那些只是保卫自己国家的无辜人民。
Then, when the interviewer asks him if he'd like to make a call home--
然后，当面试官问他是否愿意给家里打电话时——
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Valerie Kipnis He says, no, politely.
[俄语演讲] Valerie Kipnis 他礼貌地说，不。
His parents have different views on the war than him.
他的父母对战争的看法与他不同。
Instead, he calls his friend, Anya, the one who told him about the hotline.
相反，他打电话给他的朋友安雅，正是他告诉他热线的事情的。
There's a short clip of him on the phone.
电话里有他的一个短片。
He updates her on his status, and then says--
他向她通报了自己的最新状况，然后说——
Tell me how you're doing.
告诉我你怎么样。
My life is such a mess right now.
我现在的生活真是一团糟。
The way Russia sees the war and the way Ukraine sees it are like two different realities.
俄罗斯看待这场战争的方式和乌克兰看待战争的方式就像是两个不同的现实。
But you know, there are so many places where that kind of thing is true, where one reality bumps up against another.
但你知道，有很多地方确实存在这种情况，一种现实与另一种现实发生冲突。
And people try to coax each other across the line from one side to the other.
人们试图互相哄骗，从一侧到另一侧。
But crossing over-- not that many people do it, because it's so hard to do.
但跨越——没有多少人这样做，因为它太难做到了。
It seems so dangerous.
看起来好危险啊。
Today, on our program, we have people trying to sweet-talk each other across that line, with reason and with guile and with whatever they got.
今天，在我们的节目中，我们的人们试图跨越界限，用理性、用狡猾、用他们能得到的一切来互相甜言蜜语。
It's such an act of faith in each other even to try-- kind of inspiring, really.
这是一种对彼此的信任，甚至去尝试——真的很鼓舞人心。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us, please.
请留在我们身边。
Act 1, Flies, Meet Honey.
第一幕，飞翔，遇见亲爱的。
So this woman, Aubree, has been calling elections administrators all over Texas for nearly two years.
这位名叫奥布里的女士近两年来一直在给德克萨斯州各地的选举管理人员打电话。
And as a case study of people trying to coax others over to their side, it's not going too well.
作为一个关于人们试图哄骗他人站在自己一边的案例研究，事情进展得不太顺利。
She questions them, accuses them.
她质疑他们，指责他们。
There's one call I want to play a little bit of-- kind of, sums things up.
我想玩一点——总结一下。
At the beginning of the call, the official is very calm, saying things like--
通话一开始，这位官员很平静，说了这样的话——
Aubree, you brought up a lot of things, so I wanted to tackle them one by one.
Aubree，你提出了很多问题，所以我想一一解决。
But pretty quickly, Aubree is asking him about things that he can't comment on, because they're the subject of lawsuits.
但很快，奥布里就向他询问了一些他无法评论的事情，因为它们是诉讼的对象。
Lawyers have told them not to talk about them publicly.
律师告诉他们不要公开谈论这些事情。
But Aubree-- she doesn't accept that.
但奥布里——她不接受这一点。
She keeps pushing.
她不断推动。
Your county attorneys-- they don't want you to give information to the voters?
你的县检察官——他们不希望你向选民提供信息？
All I'm telling you is, I'm following their advice, Aubree.
我要告诉你的是，我正在听从他们的建议，奥布里。
And I look forward to a time when I'm able to talk more freely about this.
我期待有一天能够更自由地谈论这个问题。
So you're not able to talk freely about the issues in the elections, because one part of it has been filed with a court of law?
所以你不能自由地谈论选举中的问题，因为其中一部分已经提交给法院了？
Aubree, did you not understand what I said earlier, when I said I'm not?
奥布里，你不明白我之前说的，当我说我不是的时候吗？
I do not.
我不知道。
Could you help me understand--
你能帮我理解吗——
I think I've spoken clearly and in English that I have, that I can't speak about this, because of the current and ongoing litigation.
我想我已经用英语清楚地表达了，由于当前和正在进行的诉讼，我不能谈论这个。
As you can hear, this gets hotter and hotter.
正如你所听到的，事情变得越来越热。
He's an elections administrator in a county in central Texas and has had years of Stop the Stealers now, questioning him like this.
他是德克萨斯州中部一个县的选举管理员，多年来一直在阻止偷窃者，像这样质问他。
They flood elections offices with records requests.
他们向选举办公室提出大量记录请求。
They sue.
他们起诉。
Before long in this call, Aubree is quoting Texas legal code that she believes mandates that all ballots in Texas should be pre-numbered sequentially, starting at one, which isn't done today, with computers counting votes.
不久之后，在这次电话会议中，奥布里引用了德克萨斯州的法律法规，她认为该法规要求德克萨斯州的所有选票都应按顺序预先编号，从一张开始，但今天还没有这样做，用计算机计票。
And the elections administrator snaps.
选举管理员突然发怒。
What else would you like to quote, chapter and verse incorrectly?
您还想错误地引用哪些章节和诗句？
OK, sure.
好的，当然。
Sure.
当然。
So you're sitting in violation of the state and national constitutions, because the--
所以你的坐席违反了州和国家宪法，因为——
Incorrect.
不正确。
Wrong.
错误的。
Next.
下一个。
Aubree Campbell Let me finish, sir.
奥布里·坎贝尔 让我说完，先生。
The Secretary of State does not have the authority to circumvent Texas election code, 52--
国务卿无权规避德克萨斯州选举法第 52 条——
No, I'm not.
不，我不是。
Official I don't even have to let you finish.
官方 我什至不必让你说完。
I can tell you right now, off the bat, you're mistaken.
我现在就可以告诉你，你错了。
Next.
下一个。
Can you tell me the election code that you can cite, that allows you to circumvent the 52.062 and 62.009?
您能告诉我您可以引用的选举代码吗？它可以让您绕过 52.062 和 62.009？
Request denied.
请求被拒绝。
Aubree Campbell You don't know it off the top of your head like I do?
奥布里·坎贝尔（Aubre Campbell）：你不像我一样一目了然吗？
But you don't know the codes in the law off the top of your head?
但您不知道法律中的规定吗？
I don't.
我不知道。
Aubree Campbell OK.
奥布里·坎贝尔 好的。
Do you-- have you read-- have you read the national--
你——你读过——你读过全国性的——
I'm pretty smart.
我很聪明。
Pretty smart.
相当聪明。
And yeah, I've read the Constitution.
是的，我读过宪法。
[INTERPOSING VOICES] Official It's not as [INAUDIBLE] that.
[插话] 官方 事实并非如此[听不清]。
But you're not.
但你不是。
You're not.
你不。
What you're going to-- no, here's what you're going to do.
你要做的——不，这就是你要做的。
No, no, no, you're not going to tell me what I'm going to do.
不，不，不，你不会告诉我我要做什么。
You're going to review-- you're going to review the national and state constitutions, is what's going to happen.
你将要审查——你将审查国家和州宪法，这就是将要发生的事情。
Are you-- are you now refusing to review the national and state constitutions for your own--
你是——你现在拒绝审查你自己的国家和州宪法吗——
I am.
我是。
And here's how I'm going to refuse that-- by the coming phone click that you're about to hear in 3, 2, 1.
这就是我将如何拒绝的方式——通过你即将在 3、2、1 中听到的电话咔嗒声。
Because of these kinds of encounters between elections officials and activists, it gets very personal sometimes.
由于选举官员和活动人士之间的此类接触，有时会变得非常个人化。
In the last few years in Texas, lots of election administrators have quit or retired.
过去几年，德克萨斯州的许多选举管理人员辞职或退休。
The entire staff of an elections office in Gillespie County quit at the same time, because of accusations of fraud, obscene, racist emails, threats.
吉莱斯皮县选举办公室的全体工作人员同时辞职，原因是受到欺诈、淫秽、种族主义电子邮件和威胁的指控。
People call the cops on these officials and try to get them arrested while they're doing their jobs.
人们向警察举报这些官员，并试图在他们履行职责时逮捕他们。
But there is another path.
但还有另一条路。
That woman, Aubree Campbell, that you just heard-- she happens to live in a county in Texas-- Tarrant County, where the elections administrator is not the guy who you just heard on the phone.
你刚刚听说的那个女人，奥布里·坎贝尔——她碰巧住在德克萨斯州的一个县——塔兰特县，那里的选举管理员不是你刚刚在电话里听到的那个人。
The official in Tarrant County is this singular, kind of, remarkable figure.
塔兰特县的官员是一位独特、非凡的人物。
We learned about him from Natalia Contreras, who's been reporting on elections in Texas for months now, for Votebeat, which covers all this in depth around the country.
我们从 Natalia Contreras 那里了解到了他，她几个月来一直在为 Votebeat 报道德克萨斯州的选举，该网站深入报道了全国各地的所有情况。
Natalia says, there's really nobody else like him that she's been able to find.
娜塔莉亚说，她确实找不到像他这样的人。
He's very effective, for some special reasons that Natalia will explain in a bit.
他非常高效，出于一些特殊原因，娜塔莉亚稍后会解释。
His name is Heider Garcia.
他的名字叫海德·加西亚。
And watching him, it's hard not to feel like if anybody could convince the election doubters that our elections can be trusted-- or at the very least, if anybody can make headway with them, it would be this guy.
看着他，很难不觉得是否有人能让选举怀疑者相信我们的选举是可以信任的——或者至少，如果有人能在他们身上取得进展，那就是这个人。
And to try to see how successful he is in winning over the election skeptics and the Stop the Stealers, and to see the limits of that success.
并尝试看看他在赢得选举怀疑论者和阻止偷窃者方面有多成功，并看看这种成功的局限性。
Earlier this month, on election day, Natalia and Zoe Chace from our staff co-reported a story where the two of them followed Heider around as he managed the election in Tarrant County and as he dealt with the election doubters-- and Aubree, in particular.
本月早些时候，在选举日，我们工作人员的纳塔利娅和佐伊·切斯共同报道了一个故事，其中两人跟踪海德在塔兰特县管理选举，并与选举怀疑者（尤其是奥布里）打交道。
Here are Natalia and Zoe.
这是娜塔莉亚和佐伊。
Let's start with Aubree.
让我们从奥布里开始吧。
She's just one of many people in Texas who have made it almost their full-time job to challenge election officials.
她只是得克萨斯州众多以挑战选举官员为几乎全职工作的人之一。
And they all have some kind of story like this to explain how they got into it.
他们都有类似的故事来解释他们是如何进入这个行业的。
In Tarrant County, when Joe Biden won, it didn't really make any sense to Aubree.
在塔兰特县，当乔·拜登获胜时，这对奥布里来说并没有任何意义。
It's a Republican county.
这是一个民国县。
Republicans won down the ballot.
共和党赢得了选票。
But the president-- somehow, Biden won.
但总统——不知何故，拜登赢了。
Then, when Biden took Tarrant County, we were really upset, because Trump has a lot of vocal support here, and I don't know a single Democrat.
然后，当拜登拿下塔兰特县时，我们真的很沮丧，因为特朗普在这里有很多声音支持，而我不认识一个民主党人。
And none of my Democrat friends voted for Biden in the primaries.
我的民主党朋友都没有在初选中投票给拜登。
They all voted for Bernie.
他们都投票给伯尼。
So you talk to him one on one, they know something's not right.
所以你和他一对一交谈，他们知道有些事情不对劲。
Aubree doesn't look like other activists I see in this world, who are mostly elderly and retired.
奥布里看起来不像我在这个世界上看到的其他活动人士，他们大多是老年人和退休人员。
She's 33, but looks way younger.
她已经33岁了，但看起来年轻得多。
She's white, petite, round, hipstery eyeglasses, leather jacket.
她皮肤白皙，身材娇小，身材圆润，戴着时髦的眼镜，穿着皮夹克。
She describes herself as a conservative metal head.
她形容自己是一个保守的金属头。
She stands out.
她脱颖而出。
It was post-2020, because I remember the whole thing started with her interacting with an election judge.
那是2020年后的事了，因为我记得整件事是从她与选举法官的互动开始的。
This is Heider Garcia.
这是海德·加西亚。
Heider Garcia She was really frustrated.
Heider Garcia 她真的很沮丧。
She took out her cell phone, started recording the poll worker, saying, you're obstructing me from voting.
她拿出手机，开始给投票工作人员录音，说，你妨碍我投票。
The poll worker said, you can't use your phone here, and the whole situation started to happen.
投票工作人员说，你不能在这里使用手机，整个情况就开始发生了。
And that's when I started interacting with her, and, you know.
从那时起我开始与她互动，你知道。
Coffee?
咖啡？
Zoe Chace It's 6:30 AM on election day.
Zoe Chace 现在是选举日早上 6:30。
Heider Garcia is the kind of person who carries around his own coffee grinder to grind his own beans for his morning coffee.
海德·加西亚 (Heider Garcia) 是那种随身带着自己的咖啡研磨机，自己磨咖啡豆来制作早晨咖啡的人。
Fastidious?
挑剔？
Neurotic?
神经质？
He has high standards for himself and his coffee.
他对自己和咖啡有着很高的标准。
He oversees every aspect of the election with the same fastidiousness.
他以同样的严谨态度监督选举的各个方面。
He sets the whole thing up.
他安排了整个事情。
He trains the workers.
他培训工人。
He tells us he's been working on not being a micromanager, which you only say if you are.
他告诉我们，他一直在努力避免成为一个事无巨细的管理者，而只有当你是这样的时候，你才会这么说。
Heider's taking a particular approach with people like Aubree.
海德对像奥布里这样的人采取了特殊的方法。
It's something I haven't seen any other Texas election officials do.
我还没有见过任何其他德克萨斯州选举官员这样做过。
His strategy is to go as far as humanly possible to answer every question and address every suspicion.
他的策略是尽最大努力回答每一个问题并消除每一个怀疑。
He treats everything they say like it's worthy of an answer.
他对待他们所说的一切都像值得回答一样。
It's like radical patience.
这就像彻底的耐心。
And when you see him do it, you see why other officials don't.
当你看到他这样做时，你就会明白为什么其他官员不这样做。
Because it takes hours.
因为这需要几个小时。
It's a big part of his job now, on top of all the work of running an election.
现在，这是他工作的重要组成部分，除了竞选的所有工作之外。
They call with some issue.
他们打电话来询问一些问题。
He's like, come in.
他就像，进来吧。
Let me walk you through it.
让我引导您完成它。
Let me show you around.
让我带你参观一下。
Here's a typical example.
这是一个典型的例子。
So there was this one time when one of our watchers came in, and he was like, you know, if I-- he was in a tally room with us, and he said-- this was back in-- I think it was last year.
所以有一次，我们的一位观察员进来了，他说，你知道，如果我——他和我们一起在一个统计室里，他说——这又回来了——我想那是去年的事了。
If I were in charge here, I would make all the walls in this room glass, so that you could see where every cable goes, and you could be totally transparent-- something like that.
如果我负责这里，我会把这个房间的所有墙壁都做成玻璃，这样你就可以看到每根电缆的去向，而且你可以完全透明——类似这样的东西。
And I looked at him and said, why do you want that?
我看着他说，你为什么想要那个？
He says, well, because we should know where every wire goes, so we can know if you're connected to the internet or not.
他说，好吧，因为我们应该知道每根电线的走向，这样我们就可以知道你是否连接到互联网。
And I said, well, but the whole point is to show that the machines are not connected to the internet, right?
我说，好吧，但重点是要表明这些机器没有连接到互联网，对吗？
We're talking about the servers and the tally room, so there shouldn't be any cable going in the machine.
我们谈论的是服务器和理货室，因此机器中不应该有任何电缆。
So I told him, what about if we rearrange the room, so the machines are not, like, in this little cabinet under the desk, but up where you can see them and you can-- he said, well, maybe that would be a start.
所以我告诉他，如果我们重新布置房间怎么样，这样机器就不会放在桌子下面的小柜子里，而是放在你可以看到它们的地方，你可以——他说，好吧，也许这将是一个开始。
So the next election, they came back in a runoff.
因此，在下一次选举中，他们以决选的方式获胜。
You know, when they walked in the room, I told them, all the machines are on top of the tables.
你知道，当他们走进房间时，我告诉他们，所有的机器都在桌子上面。
You can see the back.
你可以看到背面。
They're against the glass.
他们靠着玻璃。
They're labeled what each one of them does.
它们被标记为每个人所做的事情。
This is what you wanted, right?
这就是你想要的，对吗？
And so he had that moment of, again, OK, well, you got me on that one.
所以他有那么一刻，再次，好吧，好吧，你让我明白了。
And it's little things like that, that we keep doing, right?
我们一直在做这样的小事，对吗？
In theory, any election official could go this far-- answer every question-- if they wanted to.
理论上，任何选举官员都可以走这么远——回答每一个问题——如果他们愿意的话。
Though, in some ways, Heider's uniquely suited for this, he's a computer engineer.
尽管从某些方面来说，海德非常适合此工作，但他是一名计算机工程师。
He's designed voting machines.
他设计了投票机。
So he can answer, in detail, any question, technical or not, in a way few officials ever can.
因此，他可以详细回答任何问题，无论是技术性的还是非技术性的问题，这是很少有官员能够做到的。
And for this election morning, as people are going out to vote, he's rigged up his office like some kind of air traffic control tower.
在这个选举早上，当人们出去投票时，他把他的办公室布置得像某种空中交通管制塔。
It's a big room, and he's installed this enormous screen in it, and we're looking at every polling place marked on a huge Google map-- 316 of them.
这是一个很大的房间，他在里面安装了这个巨大的屏幕，我们正在查看巨大的谷歌地图上标记的每个投票点——其中有 316 个。
They're all color-coded with wait times.
它们都用颜色编码并标明等待时间。
If there's a problem at a polling place, the color changes to mark the level of urgency-- low, medium, critical.
如果投票站出现问题，颜色会改变以标记紧急程度——低、中、严重。
Then, on a separate map, Heider can see, if a tech is dispatched to fix something, he can watch them travel out there on the map, like an Uber.
然后，在一张单独的地图上，海德可以看到，如果技术人员被派去修理某些东西，他可以看到他们在地图上行驶，就像优步一样。
We can see how long it's going to take.
我们可以看到需要多长时间。
Not long after the polls open, around 8 AM, he gets a call.
投票开始后不久，上午 8 点左右，他接到电话。
Heider holds up the phone to me.
海德向我举起电话。
He points at it and says, it's Aubree.
他指着它说，这是奥布里。
Hey.
嘿。
Morning.
早晨。
Doing good.
做得很好。
So there's a picture going around, and it's purported to be a map of outages of all of the machines.
所以有一张图片流传开来，据称它是所有机器的停机情况的地图。
Is that-- are you having issues with that?
那是——你对此有什么问题吗？
This is, like, a lot.
这就像很多。
I'm going to send it to you to-- just so you see what this is.
我将把它发送给你——只是为了让你看看这是什么。
All right.
好的。
Aubree Campbell People are-- it's going to go-- it's going to go crazy.
Aubre Campbell 人们——它会变得——它会变得疯狂。
It hasn't been shared publicly yet with the person who sent it-- from the person who sent it to me, but it could go-- you know how fast stuff can catch fire.
它还没有与发送它的人公开分享——从发送给我的人那里，但它可能会消失——你知道东西着火的速度有多快。
This is the kind of call she makes to election officials all over Texas.
这是她向德克萨斯州各地选举官员发出的呼吁。
Like, something seems fishy here.
好像，这里有些可疑的东西。
And what do you have to say for yourself before it goes viral?
在它像病毒一样传播之前，你有什么要对自己说的吗？
Yeah, send it to me.
是啊，发给我吧
I'll take a look, see what it is.
我去看看，看看是什么。
Please, that'd be great.
拜托，那就太好了。
Yeah, I texted it to you.
是的，我发短信给你了。
And so this is what it looks like.
这就是它的样子。
And so I don't know what this is, but if that's what that is--
所以我不知道这是什么，但如果那就是的话——
That's the wait time.
这就是等待时间。
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That is the map of wait times.
不，不，不，不，不，不，不，不，不。这是等待时间的地图。
It's literally the map we're looking at that's also on the elections website, with the wait times of polling places.
这实际上是我们正在查看的地图，它也在选举网站上，上面有投票站的等待时间。
It's not a map of outages.
这不是停电地图。
That's every single polling place in Tarrant County, and it's showing the wait times.
这是塔兰特县的每个投票站，并且显示了等待时间。
They should be in green, yellow, and red, for short, medium, and long lines.
对于短线、中线和长线，它们应该是绿色、黄色和红色。
And actually, if you look at the picture, it says right there.
事实上，如果你看图片，它就在那里。
Yeah.
是的。
But I didn't know if that's exact.
但我不知道这是否准确。
I didn't know-- I don't know the--
我不知道——我不知道——
All right.
好吧。
No, that's fine.
不，没关系。
Send me anything you have a concern about.
将您关心的任何问题发送给我。
We'll look into it.
我们会调查一下。
OK, I'll make sure that they understand that, they don't share it out wrong.
好的，我会确保他们理解这一点，他们不会错误地分享。
Awesome.
惊人的。
Appreciate it.
欣赏它。
Aubree Campbell All right.
奥布里·坎贝尔 好吧。
Bye.
再见。
Bye.
再见。
Zoe Chace Shockingly amicable.
佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace）非常友善。
It doesn't escalate.
它不会升级。
And she seems to believe him, which is wild to me, to see one of these election fraud activists actually take the word of an elections official.
她似乎相信他，这让我很疯狂，因为看到其中一名选举欺诈活动分子实际上相信了一名选举官员的话。
She seems to trust what he's saying, because of all her dealings with Heider to this point.
她似乎相信他说的话，因为到目前为止她与海德的所有交往。
Heider says she calls a lot.
海德说她经常打电话。
To the point where you have her number saved, and every-- She has your number.
直到你保存了她的电话号码，并且每个——她都有你的电话号码。
Yeah, yeah, no, and I give everybody-- everybody-- I give everyone my cell phone.
是的，是的，不，我给每个人——每个人——我给每个人我的手机。
I'd rather they call me directly and say, hey, you know, do this.
我宁愿他们直接打电话给我并说，嘿，你知道，这样做。
Deal with it, rather than wait until it snowballs.
处理它，而不是等到它滚雪球。
And I find out at 4:00 in the afternoon that the map has been going around, it's like, done.
下午 4:00 我发现地图已经绕了一圈，就好像完成了一样。
I told you what it is.
我告诉过你那是什么了。
Doesn't go any further than that, hopefully.
希望不会比这更进一步。
Heider's clicking around on his computer.
海德正在他的电脑上点击。
He's watching the polling places.
他正在监视投票站。
He has calls coming in.
他有电话打进来。
He's checking in with his wife and kids.
他正在检查他的妻子和孩子。
He's got the news on.
他已经收到消息了
He says he's glad he's not in Arizona.
他说他很高兴自己不在亚利桑那州。
He's also on Twitter and on Telegram.
他还在 Twitter 和 Telegram 上。
He spends a lot of time, election day and always, monitoring what the activists are saying to anticipate what they're going to want from him.
在选举日，他总是花费大量时间监视活动人士的言论，以预测他们想从他那里得到什么。
Heider is so fanatical about following these channels, that when he hears about a new conspiracy theory, he'll dive deep and work it all the way out, so he can disprove it if anyone brings it up.
海德非常热衷于关注这些渠道，以至于当他听到一个新的阴谋论时，他会深入研究并彻底解决它，这样如果有人提出来，他就可以反驳它。
Like, this one guy Aubree was talking about-- this kind of famous right-wing activist, Seth Keshel, who goes by Captain K.
就像奥布里所说的这个人——著名的右翼活动家塞思·凯舍尔（Seth Keshel），绰号为 K 船长。
He had some math that supposedly proved that Trump won Tarrant County.
他有一些数学知识，据说可以证明特朗普赢得了塔兰特县。
OK.
好的。
I actually looked at his methodology and tried to run the numbers.
我实际上研究了他的方法并尝试计算数字。
And just to understand, because people come in here-- I got some of these people who come in and say, "well, Captain Keshel said--" well, first of all, it's so flawed, the whole method, right?
只是为了理解，因为人们来到这里——我遇到了一些人进来说，“好吧，凯舍尔船长说——”好吧，首先，整个方法有缺陷，对吧？
So I've explained it to them.
所以我已经向他们解释了。
I said, have you actually run the numbers on his method and do you understand how it works?
我说，你真的用他的方法计算过数字吗？你明白它是如何工作的吗？
No. So I sat her down and I explained to her the math behind it.
不。所以我让她坐下来，向她解释了背后的数学原理。
Said, you understand that this is bullshit, right?
说，你明白这是胡说八道吧？
What's the premise that he's using that's the false premise?
他使用的前提是什么，这是错误的前提？
That he can project how people vote in November based on how the primary was.
他可以根据初选情况预测 11 月人们的投票情况。
Let's geek out.
让我们来看看吧。
[LAUGHS] Let's geek out!
[笑]让我们一起疯狂吧！
Heider just happens to have a whiteboard and markers handy.
海德恰好手边有一块白板和记号笔。
He starts drawing a line graph to show us.
他开始画一个折线图给我们看。
Here's what he says.
他是这么说的。
He says that he can take the registration from any point in time.
他说他可以在任何时间点进行登记。
He walks us through it, just like he did for Aubree.
他带领我们经历了这一切，就像他为奥布里所做的那样。
The Captain really drives him crazy.
船长真是把他逼疯了。
Just today he saw him railing against early voting on his telegram channel.
就在今天，他看到他在自己的电报频道上抱怨提前投票。
His voting history, have you looked at it?
他的投票历史，你看过吗？
I just looked today.
我今天刚看了。
You just look today at Seth Keshel's voting history?
你今天看看塞思·凯舍尔的投票历史吗？
He says, we have to get rid of early voting.
他说，我们必须取消提前投票。
Early voting is not safe.
提前投票并不安全。
For the last 10 years, he's voted early voting every single election.
在过去的十年里，他在每次选举中都投票提前投票。
We checked-- it's at least the past six years.
我们查了一下——至少是过去六年了。
As you go through his voting history and you compare what he says to what he does, it's like, dude, really?
当你浏览他的投票历史并将他所说和所做的进行比较时，你会发现，伙计，真的吗？
You want to get rid of all these things because it's not safe, but you take advantage of them because you need to and because it's more convenient for you?
您想摆脱所有这些东西，因为它不安全，但您利用它们是因为您需要并且因为它对您来说更方便？
You, Heider, are taking the time to make a public records request.
海德，您正在花时间提出公共记录请求。
What are you even going to do with that?
你打算用它做什么？
Nothing.
没有什么。
Some of these people, again, it's kind of like should I take this one serious or not?
其中一些人再次提出，我是否应该认真对待这个问题？
Heider started monitoring the stuff at first, because he was worried about his own safety.
海德一开始就开始监视这些东西，因为他担心自己的安全。
Back in 2020, he was at the center of a national trolling firestorm.
早在 2020 年，他就处于全国性恶搞风暴的中心。
Because even though he was born in the United States, he grew up in Venezuela and worked for a while for the voting machine company Smartmatic.
因为尽管他出生在美国，但他在委内瑞拉长大，并曾在投票机公司 Smartmatic 工作过一段时间。
You know Smartmatic-- it's at the center of a ton of conspiracy theories.
你知道 Smartmatic——它是大量阴谋论的中心。
Heider's name blew up.
海德的名字一下子就火了。
Heider Garcia-- this Venezuelan-born operative now serves, believe it or not, as election administrator for Tarrant County, Texas.
不管你信不信，这位出生于委内瑞拉的特工海德·加西亚 (Heider Garcia) 现在担任德克萨斯州塔兰特县的选举管理员。
That's a county which turned blue for the first time since 1964, after the introduction of-- dum, dum, dum-- new electronic voting machines.
自 1964 年引进新电子投票机后，该县首次变成蓝色。
Hm.
嗯。
While evading--
躲避的同时——
That's Michelle Malkin on Newsmax.
这是 Newsmax 上的米歇尔·马尔金。
Trump allies Sidney Powell and Lou Dobbs were also talking about him.
特朗普的盟友西德尼·鲍威尔和卢·多布斯也在谈论他。
After that, he got lots of racist messages.
此后，他收到了大量种族主义信息。
He got death threats.
他收到了死亡威胁。
People shared his home address online.
人们在网上分享了他的家庭住址。
And suddenly local activists in Texas had this hometown supervillain to investigate, and talk about, and publicize.
突然间，得克萨斯州的当地活动人士有了这个家乡的超级恶棍来调查、谈论和宣传。
People made their own videos.
人们制作了自己的视频。
Aubree made one that's two hours long.
奥布里做了一个长达两个小时的节目。
It's called Heider Smartmatic Garcia, and it included a lot of inaccurate information about his time with Smartmatic.
它被称为 Heider Smartmatic Garcia，其中包含许多有关他在 Smartmatic 工作的不准确信息。
He sold their machines to the legislature of the Philippines.
他将他们的机器卖给了菲律宾立法机构。
So not only did he design the machines, I mean, this guy is a real go-getter.
所以他不仅设计了机器，我的意思是，这家伙是一个真正的干将。
He also went out and sold it to the Philippines, who later had a big, big issue with them.
他还把它卖给了菲律宾，后来菲律宾与他们发生了很大的问题。
We'll flip over and watch that video in just a moment.
我们稍后会翻过来观看该视频。
He was also--
他还——
At some point, Heider decided he had nothing to hide.
在某个时刻，海德认为他没有什么可隐瞒的。
He didn't do anything wrong.
他没有做错任何事。
He went on the offensive, submitted testimony to Congress, threatened to sue Aubree for defamation.
他继续进攻，向国会提交证词，威胁要起诉奥布里诽谤。
She put out an apology video.
她发布了道歉视频。
OK, I have to issue what I guess you could call a retraction.
好吧，我必须发出我猜你可以称之为撤回的消息。
I just want to be clear.
我只想说清楚。
Aubree is not some big, famous internet activist.
奥布里并不是什么大牌、著名的互联网活动家。
She has fewer than 1,000 followers.
她的粉丝不到 1,000 人。
She works in restaurants.
她在餐馆工作。
She's part of this whole world of people out there on Telegram and stuff like that, since the election sharing their own analysis of what they think is election fraud-- probably sincerely, and asking for donations.
自从选举以来，她就在 Telegram 等网站上分享了他们自己对选举舞弊行为的分析——可能是真诚的，并请求捐款。
What makes Heider so mad about Aubree and some others is he sees it like she's using this narrative of him that she's fighting this big, bad Venezuelan operative to build up her own brand.
海德对奥布里和其他一些人如此生气的原因是，他认为她正在利用他的这种叙述，认为她正在与这个又大又坏的委内瑞拉特工作战，以建立自己的品牌。
Does she sell merchandise?
她卖商品吗？
Heider Garcia Yep.
海德·加西亚 是的。
What does she sell?
她卖什么？
Heider Garcia That stuff there.
海德·加西亚 那东西在那里。
I bought two shirts and two mugs.
我买了两件衬衫和两个杯子。
No, you didn't.
不，你没有。
He didn't.
他没有。
Aubree says she doesn't sell much merch, and she doesn't ask for donations much either.
奥布里说她卖的商品不多，也没有太多要求捐款。
The merch reads "Taking Back Texas," which is Aubree's brand.
商品上写着“夺回德克萨斯”，这是奥布里的品牌。
Oh, that is a lot of merch.
哦，那是很多商品。
Natalia Contreras Throughout the morning, Heider's constantly running back and forth, checking in on the people managing the phone bank, to the point where one of them literally says to him, Heider, I need to focus now.
纳塔利娅·孔特雷拉斯 (Natalia Contreras) 整个上午，海德不断地来回奔走，检查管理电话银行的人员，以至于其中一个人对他说，海德，我现在需要集中注意力。
His phone keeps blowing up with calls about minor technical issues, machines going down at polling places.
他的电话不断被有关小技术问题、投票站机器故障等问题的电话打断。
Arlington, Miller-- that's the hot spot right now.
阿灵顿、米勒——那是现在的热点。
I've got calls from both sides on that one.
我接到双方打来的电话。
There's other types of problems-- people problems.
还有其他类型的问题——人的问题。
One poll worker, while demonstrating how to help voters vote, accidentally voted as someone else with a similar name.
一名投票站工作人员在演示如何帮助选民投票时，不小心以其他同名的人的身份投票。
There's a problem with the poll judge-- well, with the alternate to the judge.
民意调查法官有问题——嗯，是法官的候补法官。
Question-- I do have one for you.
问题——我有一个给你。
Judge called and said she thinks her alternate has been drinking and is carrying-- [LAUGHS] --and carrying, and carrying.
法官打电话说，她认为她的替补一直在喝酒，并且带着——[笑]——带着，带着。
And apparently he said something like, I'm carrying, and I'm here to protect you if necessary.
显然他说了类似的话，我带着，如果有必要的话我会在这里保护你。
And she said she smelled alcohol.
她还说她闻到了酒味。
So we're going to tell him to call law enforcement and have them assess the situation.
所以我们要告诉他打电话给执法部门并让他们评估情况。
Mostly Heider's upbeat, excited, jokey.
海德大多是乐观、兴奋、幽默的。
When his assistant Troy brags about how he's about to buy an F-150 hybrid, Heider's like, can you not drive it to work right after the election?
当他的助手 Troy 吹嘘他即将购买一辆 F-150 混合动力车时，Heider 说，你能不能在选举结束后立即开着它去上班吗？
People are going to be like, see, they got that big George Soros payout-- your "Ford Soros," he says.
人们会说，看，他们得到了乔治·索罗斯的巨额奖金——你的“福特索罗斯”，他说。
Heider's phone rings.
海德的电话响了。
It's Aubree again.
又是奥布里。
Hey.
嘿。
Aubree Campbell Hey, sorry.
奥布里·坎贝尔 嘿，抱歉。
So someone kind of prominent locally is saying that she's been told machines in Hurst are down and that they're not going to be serviced or replaced.
因此，当地一位知名人士表示，她被告知赫斯特的机器已停机，并且不会得到维修或更换。
In a mostly Republican part of town, a controller went out.
在该镇以共和党为主的地区，一名管制员出去了。
The line was long.
队伍很长。
This is the kind of thing that happens in every election.
这是每次选举中都会发生的事情。
Usually it's no big deal, but now everyone is suspicious they're being targeted.
通常这没什么大不了的，但现在每个人都怀疑自己成为了攻击目标。
No, Brookside did have an issue.
不，布鲁克赛德确实有问题。
There was a tech dispatched there a while ago.
不久前，有一名技术人员被派往那里。
They should be on-site, actually, right now.
事实上，他们现在就应该在现场。
Yeah, nothing's not going to not get serviced.
是的，没有什么是得不到服务的。
That'd be the stupidest mistake I can make.
那将是我能犯的最愚蠢的错误。
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
All right, so do you have a lot of other locations where the controllers or the tabulator went down?
好吧，那么您是否还有很多其他地方控制器或制表器出现故障？
I think a grapevine in the library-- they had two strings and one of them had an issue-- and Miller.
我认为图书馆里有一条小道消息——他们有两根弦，其中一根有问题——还有米勒。
I think that one was a scanner.
我认为那是一台扫描仪。
But that's not a problem, because they can still vote.
但这不是问题，因为他们仍然可以投票。
They just put them in the emergency bin on the board.
他们只是将它们放入板上的应急箱中。
Ballot board adds them in once we get it back here.
我们一回到这里，投票板就会将它们添加进来。
Oh, yeah, they're going to throw a fit about that though.
哦，是的，不过他们会为此大发雷霆。
This happened on a huge scale in Arizona, and people did throw a fit about it.
这件事在亚利桑那州大规模发生，人们确实对此大发雷霆。
Aubree tells Heider she's going to go check it out for herself.
奥布里告诉海德她要亲自去看看。
I don't care if you call me 100 times a day, because I'd rather hear as soon as I can and get on it.
我不在乎你每天给我打电话 100 次，因为我宁愿尽快听到并接听。
It's almost like he's deputized her.
就好像他已经代理了她一样。
Sometimes they seem like colleagues.
有时他们看起来就像同事。
I can't tell whose strategy that is, or whether it's working, but it seems to calm things.
我不知道这是谁的策略，也不知道它是否有效，但它似乎让事情平静下来。
In the end, the broken scanner wasn't a big deal.
最后，扫描仪坏了也没什么大不了的。
Finally, when we get near 7:00 when polls will close, poll watchers start piling in from voting sites around the county.
最后，当投票即将结束时，临近 7:00，投票观察员开始从全县各地的投票点涌入。
Not as many as we had expected.
没有我们预期的那么多。
When Aubree walks in, her first question is about Heider.
当奥布里走进来时，她的第一个问题是关于海德的。
"Do you know where he is?" she says to someone.
“你知道他在哪儿吗？”她对某人说。
"He probably doesn't want me walking around here too much on my own." Again, Heider and Aubree interact like colleagues almost-- colleagues who don't really like each other, frenemies?
“他可能不希望我一个人在这里走动太多。”海德和奥布里再次像同事一样互动——彼此并不真正喜欢对方的同事，亦敌亦友？
Hello?
你好？
Aubree Campbell Hey, how are you?
奥布里·坎贝尔 嘿，你好吗？
Good.
好的。
Natalia Contreras Notice how they're talking past each other-- but so politely.
娜塔莉亚·孔特雷拉斯（Natalia Contreras）注意到他们是如何互相交谈的——但是非常有礼貌。
Well, the ones I went to, what's it called, Euless Family Center?
嗯，我去过的那些，叫什么，尤利斯家庭中心？
That's a great place.
那是个好地方。
It's really big, open.
确实很大，很开放。
It is.
这是。
Heider Garcia Is that the one?
海德·加西亚 是那个人吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Aubree Campbell And they said they could have used an extra poll book or two.
奥布里·坎贝尔 他们说他们可以使用一两本额外的民意调查簿。
I know.
我知道。
Zoe Chace Finally, it's time to count the votes.
Zoe Chace 最后，到了计票的时间了。
There's one hilarious looking ritual first.
首先有一个看起来很搞笑的仪式。
The walk of shame.
耻辱之行。
Zoe Chace The absentee ballots are on a USB drive.
Zoe Chace 缺席选票位于 USB 驱动器上。
And to move that USB drive into the tally room where they'll be added to the results, the drive is lifted high into the air for all watchers to see and marched like a winning quarterback into the next room.
为了将 USB 驱动器移至计分室，并将其添加到结果中，驱动器会被高高举到空中，让所有观察者都能看到，然后像获胜的四分卫一样进入隔壁房间。
It's symbolic of Heider's whole approach to things-- flamboyantly transparent.
它象征着海德处理事物的整个方法——华丽透明。
Someone holds a GoPro up high so the entire march of the USB drive is recorded in case anyone asks later, what happened between the two rooms?
有人高高举起 GoPro，将 USB 驱动器的整个行进过程记录下来，以防稍后有人问，两个房间之间发生了什么？
We should do like a chair, like a throne chair, and we should carry it on the shoulders, all of us in the procession, but with just a USB drive sitting on the chair.
我们应该像一把椅子，像一把宝座椅，我们应该把它扛在肩上，我们所有人都在游行中，但椅子上只有一个 USB 驱动器。
We get to the back room where they're counting votes.
我们到达后面的房间，他们正在计票。
This is where the hardcore election skeptics are camped out for the night.
这是铁杆选举怀疑论者过夜的地方。
There's Amy.
有艾米。
She's in a red, white, and blue dress with a clipboard, scrutinizing the way the ballot bags are sealed.
她穿着红、白、蓝相间的裙子，拿着写字板，仔细检查选票袋的密封方式。
Mike, he's a retired air mechanic who says, if we can audit planes, why can't we do better with elections here?
迈克，他是一名退休的航空机械师，他说，如果我们可以审计飞机，为什么我们不能在这里的选举方面做得更好呢？
He's there.
他就在那儿。
Karen, she has a lawsuit against Heider.
凯伦，她对海德提起诉讼。
There's maybe a dozen people he deals with regularly, like Aubree.
他经常打交道的人可能有十几个人，比如奥布里。
He knows all of these people well, and he's trying to anticipate what they'll want.
他很了解所有这些人，并且他正在努力预测他们会想要什么。
And does it work?
它有效吗？
Are they satisfied?
他们满意吗？
I will say this, Heider makes other election administrators look like idiots.
我要说的是，海德让其他选举管理者看起来像白痴。
Again, here's Aubree.
再说一次，这是奥布里。
Aubree Campbell Well, he'll answer all your questions, so we're getting places.
奥布里·坎贝尔（Aubre Campbell）：好吧，他会回答你所有的问题，所以我们找到了位置。
He's made some changes that I like.
他做了一些我喜欢的改变。
Like what?
比如什么？
Aubree Campbell He's adding all of the result tapes for election day onto the website.
奥布里·坎贝尔 他正在将选举日的所有结果磁带添加到网站上。
He's doing a lot of stuff that's helping, and that's more than other election administrators.
他做了很多有帮助的事情，这比其他选举管理者更多。
Do you think that's helped in any way your confidence in the system, if you will?
如果您愿意的话，您认为这对您对系统的信心有任何帮助吗？
No, not in the system.
不，系统中没有。
I do not trust the system.
我不信任这个系统。
But it's helped me understand the system more.
但它帮助我更多地了解了这个系统。
Trust it?
相信吗？
No. I don't trust computerized voting systems.
不，我不信任计算机投票系统。
Computers can be hacked-- they always can.
计算机可能会被黑客入侵——它们总是可能的。
Whether that's happening right now, we're unable to fully investigate.
无论现在是否发生这种情况，我们都无法进行全面调查。
Even after everything Heider's done to convince her otherwise, she doesn't believe the process is secure enough in Tarrant County to say for sure that the votes were accurately counted.
即使海德做了一切努力说服她，她仍然不相信塔兰特县的这一过程足够安全，无法确定计票是否准确。
This past year I've wondered, can you convince someone that an election is not stolen?
去年我想知道，你能让别人相信选举不是被盗的吗？
And what I realized watching Heider is, that is not the right question to ask right now.
我在观看海德的过程中意识到，这不是现在问的正确问题。
That's an endpoint we're not going to arrive at.
这是我们不会到达的终点。
The activists aren't going away.
活动人士不会消失。
Instead, what Heider is trying, he's integrating the election skeptics and all their questions into the elections office and the way it works.
相反，海德正在尝试将选举怀疑论者及其所有问题纳入选举办公室及其运作方式。
It's the job.
这就是工作。
Maybe there's no point.
也许没有意义。
Maybe that's just the job.
也许这就是工作。
You know, maybe there's no endgame.
你知道，也许没有结局。
Maybe that's just the way it is.
也许事情就是这样。
Like I said, if there is a shooting, police jumps into it.
就像我说的，如果发生枪击事件，警察就会介入。
If there was a fire, a firefighter.
如果发生火灾，请消防员。
[INAUDIBLE] questions, that's ours.
[听不清] 问题，那是我们的问题。
Not because it's going to end, because it's your job.
不是因为它会结束，而是因为这是你的工作。
It's your job, it's simple.
这是你的工作，很简单。
And in this new normal on this election night, the job's gone as well as he could hope.
在这个选举之夜的新常态中，这份工作正如他所希望的那样消失了。
The activists still have their doubts, a few of them already setting up meetings with Heider for later that week.
活动人士仍然心存疑虑，其中一些人已经安排在本周晚些时候与海德会面。
There's a new conspiracy every day.
每天都有新的阴谋。
But no one yells.
但没有人喊叫。
No one throws a fit saying they're being obstructed.
没有人会因为受到阻碍而大发雷霆。
And Heider rushes around to everyone, like the anxious owner of a restaurant, checking on their regulars, making sure they have everything they need.
海德冲向每个人，就像焦急的餐馆老板一样，检查他们的常客，确保他们拥有所需的一切。
And the votes get counted.
选票将会被清点。
Natalia Contreras is a reporter with Votebeat.
Natalia Contreras 是 Votebeat 的记者。
You can find her work at Votebeat.org.
您可以在 Votebeat.org 上找到她的作品。
Zoe Chace is a producer on our show.
佐伊·查斯 (Zoe Chace) 是我们节目的制片人。
Coming up, we watch a guy during the exact moment he is crossing through the looking glass to the other side.
接下来，我们看到一个人穿过镜子到达另一边的那一刻。
And we can see it, because he's on national TV on a game show.
我们可以看到这一点，因为他在国家电视台的游戏节目中。
That's in a minute on Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台稍后将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today on our program, Through the Looking Glass.
今天我们的节目《镜中奇遇》。
People trying to coax each other across the border from one way of seeing the world to another way.
人们试图跨越国界，互相哄骗，从一种看待世界的方式转向另一种方式。
We have arrived at Act Two of our show.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。
Act Two, Who is Ryan Long?
第二幕，瑞恩·朗是谁？
So in this story you're going to see a guy trying to actually coax himself through the looking glass from one reality into another.
所以在这个故事中，你会看到一个人试图通过镜子，真正地哄自己从一个现实进入另一个现实。
Lots of people actually saw him do this.
确实有很多人亲眼看到他这样做。
One of our producers, Bim Adewunmi, was one of them.
我们的制作人之一 Bim Adewunmi 就是其中之一。
Back in May, I became mildly obsessed with a stranger on TV.
早在五月，我就开始有点迷恋电视上的一个陌生人。
It was a big guy.
那是一个大家伙。
He looked Black, biracial maybe, and he was wearing a light purple shirt under a black vest.
他看起来是黑人，也许是混血儿，他穿着浅紫色衬衫和黑色背心。
I was ill on my sofa.
我在沙发上生病了。
It was 7:00 PM on a Friday.
那是星期五晚上 7:00。
You know what that means.
你知道那意味着什么。
This is Jeopardy!
这就是危险！
Introducing today's contestants, a rideshare driver from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, Ryan Long.
今天介绍的参赛者是来自宾夕法尼亚州费城的拼车司机 Ryan Long。
A rideshare driver.
一名拼车司机。
I watch a lot of Jeopardy, but if you don't, you might not know that it is not that common among all the professors and the grad students and other learned contestants to see an Uber driver.
我看了很多《危险边缘》节目，但如果你不看，你可能不知道，在所有教授、研究生和其他博学的参赛者中，看到 Uber 司机的情况并不常见。
Also unusual in my years of watching-- big Black guys.
在我多年的观看中也很不寻常——黑人大个子。
Ryan won that first game, and then he kept on winning.
瑞安赢得了第一场比赛，然后他继续获胜。
In the end, he won almost $300,000 over 16 games, becoming the ninth winningest Jeopardy winner of all time.
最终，他在 16 场比赛中赢得了近 30 万美元，成为 Jeopardy 有史以来第九位获胜者。
After pretty much every win, he would do this thing that I began to look forward to.
几乎每次获胜后，他都会做我开始期待的事情。
He'd grip the lectern, look down, almost defiantly refusing to meet the host's eye, and shake his head.
他会紧握讲台，低下头，几乎是挑衅地拒绝与主持人的目光对视，然后摇摇头。
His body language basically screamed "this can't be real, this is impossible."
他的肢体语言基本上是在尖叫“这不可能是真的，这是不可能的。”
Ryan, congratulations!
瑞安，恭喜！
With $18,800, you are our new Jeopardy champion.
您凭借 18,800 美元成为我们的新 Jeopardy 冠军。
I took a photo of Ryan on my TV screen that first night he won, and posted it to Instagram.
Ryan 获胜的第一个晚上，我在电视屏幕上拍了一张他的照片，并将其发布到 Instagram 上。
"You have my sword," I captioned the photo, a line from "The Lord of the Rings."
“你有我的剑，”我在照片上加上了标题，这是《指环王》中的一句台词。
Here's a thing about me-- I love trivia.
我有一个特点——我喜欢琐事。
I was a childhood library lurker who hoarded facts, just waiting to bust them out and impress people.
我小时候是一名图书馆潜伏者，他囤积事实，只是等着把它们拿出来给人们留下深刻的印象。
I love remembering dates and locations, and I delight in wordplay.
我喜欢记住日期和地点，并且喜欢文字游戏。
Watching Ryan win again and again reminded me of myself a little, except he was me to the power of 100.
看着 Ryan 一次又一次获胜，让我想起了自己，只不过他是我的 100 次方。
It sounds condescending and weird, because we're about the same age, in our very late 30s, but I was proud of him, I think.
这听起来有点居高临下而且很奇怪，因为我们年龄差不多，都三十多岁了，但我想我为他感到骄傲。
I rarely feel affection for Jeopardy winners.
我很少对危险边缘的获胜者产生感情。
They're too mannered, too serious, too odd.
他们太有礼貌、太严肃、太奇怪。
But I was rooting for Ryan.
但我支持瑞安。
I felt like I knew him.
我感觉我认识他。
He had tweeted after his winning run something that stuck with me, something about a box.
他在获胜后发了一条推文，内容让我印象深刻，是关于盒子的。
"Sometimes," he wrote, "it seems like society put you in a box and you are classified as a certain thing, with a certain destiny, even though you may feel differently inside."
“有时候，”他写道，“社会似乎把你放在一个盒子里，你被归类为某种特定的东西，具有某种命运，尽管你内心可能有不同的感受。”
I wondered how somebody who felt so familiar to me had ended up dominating the Jeopardy stage.
我想知道一个对我来说如此熟悉的人如何最终统治了 Jeopardy 舞台。
What was that like for him?
对他来说那是什么样的感觉？
What box did he think he was in, and how had Jeopardy helped him break out of it?
他认为自己陷入了怎样的困境？《危险边缘》是如何帮助他摆脱困境的？
Honestly, I just wanted to meet him.
老实说，我只是想见见他。
And so, along with my colleague and co-Ryan fan, Zoe Chace, I got on a train to Philadelphia.
于是，我和我的同事兼瑞恩共同粉丝佐伊·查斯 (Zoe Chace) 一起登上了前往费城的火车。
He met us in his new truck at the station.
他在车站开着他的新卡车来接我们。
Hi, Ryan.
嗨，瑞安。
Bim Adewunmi Which, by the way, we knew immediately that was Ryan's car.
Bim Adewunmi 顺便说一句，我们立刻就知道那是 Ryan 的车。
It still has that new car gleam, and it is huge-- exactly the car you would expect from a man whose happy place is his car.
它仍然散发着新车的光芒，而且很大——这正是你对一个以汽车为快乐之所的人所期望的汽车。
Even before he became a rideshare driver, he would spend hours driving around navigating the potholes of Philly with his music on.
甚至在他成为一名拼车司机之前，他就会花几个小时开着车在费城的坑洼中行驶，一边听着音乐。
So Zoe and I ended up spending all day on the road with him and meeting a couple of his friends.
所以佐伊和我最终花了一整天的时间和他一起在路上，并见到了他的几个朋友。
And the first question from Ryan felt like something you might ask a friend.
瑞安提出的第一个问题感觉就像你可能会问朋友一样。
All right, let's start off with a weird question.
好吧，让我们从一个奇怪的问题开始。
Do either one of you have any lotion?
你们两个有乳液吗？
Lotion?
洗剂？
Bim Adewunmi I have hand cream, is that going to do it?
Bim Adewunmi 我有护手霜，可以吗？
Yeah, my arms are so dry.
是啊，我的手臂太干了。
Bim Adewunmi Oh, bless you.
Bim Adewunmi 噢，祝福你。
And about 20 minutes after we'd met, an aside about Michael Jackson's autobiography somehow led us here.
我们见面大约 20 分钟后，一段关于迈克尔·杰克逊自传的旁白不知何故把我们引到了这里。
Who's your favorite Bond?
你最喜欢的邦德是谁？
Ryan Long Connery, what?
瑞恩·朗·康纳利，什么？
That's amazing.
太棒了。
I feel like Connery is up there, but you know who my favorite is, seriously?
我觉得康纳利在上面，但你知道我最喜欢的人是谁吗？
Don't say Daniel Craig.
别说丹尼尔·克雷格。
Bim Adewunmi No.
比姆·阿德文米 No.
Oh.
哦。
Timothy Dalton?
蒂莫西·道尔顿？
Bim Adewunmi Timothy Dalton!
比姆·阿德温米·蒂莫西·道尔顿！
--the respect he deserved!
——他应得的尊重！
Ryan Long No.
瑞安·龙号
OK, good.
好的，很好。
I'll tell you this for free-- There is no loneliness like the loneliness of those of us in the "Timothy Dalton is the best James Bond" camp.
我可以免费告诉你——没有什么比我们这些“蒂莫西·道尔顿是最好的詹姆斯·邦德”阵营中的人更孤独的了。
I'm telling you.
我告诉你。
Bim Adewunmi Oh, my god.
Bim Adewunmi 噢，天哪。
I love Timothy Dalton so much.
我非常喜欢蒂莫西·道尔顿。
I watched "The Living Daylights" so many times.
《黎明生机》我看了很多遍。
And the way he always hit the words.
还有他总是击中单词的方式。
Yes!
是的！
Ryan Long Yes!
瑞恩龙 是的！
Talking to the-- what's the Russian guy?
正在和那个俄罗斯人说话？
Georgi--
乔治--
And when he's talking, he goes, "Felix Leiter," you could tell he was a stage actor.
当他说话时，他会说“菲利克斯·莱特”，你可以看出他是一名舞台演员。
The road to the Alex Trebek stage at Sony Pictures Studios started early for Ryan.
瑞安很早就开始了通往索尼影视工作室亚历克斯·特雷贝克舞台的道路。
Like me, he was a voracious reader who liked to read the dictionary for fun.
和我一样，他也是一个如饥似渴的读者，喜欢读字典来消遣。
Unlike me, Ryan was reading the newspaper by the age of two.
与我不同的是，瑞安两岁时就开始看报纸了。
And his mom Angela told me he used to carry the cards from the trivial pursuit game she'd bought.
他的妈妈安吉拉告诉我，他过去常常带着她买的追逐游戏中的卡片。
One of his favorite childhood books was "Anguished English," an anthology of grammar humor.
他童年时最喜欢的一本书是《痛苦的英语》，一本语法幽默选集。
And, yes, Ryan loved Jeopardy.
是的，瑞安喜欢《危险边缘》。
I would have loved to have met Alex Trebek.
我很想见到亚历克斯·特雷贝克。
He was a hero in my house.
他是我家里的英雄。
He's one of few white men I know that can pull off a perm.
他是我认识的少数几个能烫发的白人之一。
Ryan, who's a big man now, describes himself as "husky" when he was a kid, which made him feel awkward and self-conscious.
如今已经是大男人的瑞恩形容自己小时候是“哈士奇”，这让他感到尴尬和难为情。
Plus, he was also in the midst of working out his mixed identity back then.
另外，当时他也正在探索自己的混合身份。
His mom is Black and his father was white.
他的母亲是黑人，父亲是白人。
And on top of that, he was an obviously smart kid.
最重要的是，他显然是一个聪明的孩子。
So they put him in the gifted classes, which also made him feel a little isolated.
所以他们把他安排到了天才班，这也让他感到有点孤立。
I was smart and stupid at the same time.
我既聪明又愚蠢。
I had no idea how to relate to people.
我不知道如何与人相处。
I lived in my head.
我住在我的脑海里。
Uh-huh, which is good for accumulation of stuff, but--
嗯嗯，这对积累东西很有好处，但是——
Yeah.
是的。
Bim Adewunmi --perhaps less useful--
Bim Adewunmi——也许不太有用——
But not great for relating to other people.
但不太适合与他人交往。
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Ryan Long I used to downplay my intelligence like a motherfucker.
瑞恩·朗（Ryan Long） 我曾经像个混蛋一样低估自己的智力。
Really?
真的吗？
Ryan Long Like crazy.
瑞恩·朗 简直疯了。
I would just stay quiet.
我只会保持安静。
Because I would have an opinion on a topic or something like that, and I was afraid that it would go over the other kids' heads and they would look at me like I got three eyes or something.
因为我会对某个话题或类似的事情有自己的看法，我担心这会超出其他孩子的头脑，他们会像我长了三只眼睛一样看着我。
So I would just keep my mouth shut.
所以我只能闭嘴。
You feel like you got to fit in.
你觉得你必须融入其中。
This was his first understanding that people have ideas about you, and those ideas might not match how you feel about yourself.
这是他第一次了解到人们对你有想法，而这些想法可能与你对自己的感觉不符。
It was also the first time Ryan felt put into that box that he tweeted about.
这也是瑞安第一次感到自己被放进了他在推特上提到的那个盒子里。
And in order to fit, he had to cut parts of himself off.
为了适应，他不得不切除自己的一部分。
In the end, Ryan didn't do great at school.
最终，瑞安在学校的表现并不好。
His parents had split up when he was 13, and he'd gone to live with his dad.
他的父母在他13岁时就离婚了，他搬去和父亲住在一起。
A few years later, when he was 17, his father died and Ryan moved back in with his mom.
几年后，当他 17 岁的时候，他的父亲去世了，瑞安搬回和他妈妈住在一起。
According to Ryan, he barely graduated high school, and then did a year of community college before dropping out.
据瑞安说，他高中勉强毕业，然后在社区大学读了一年，然后退学。
It's like he got so used to hiding away the brightest parts of himself, that he got really good at it-- too good.
就好像他已经习惯了隐藏自己最聪明的部分，以至于他真的很擅长——太好了。
The way Ryan tells it, he settled into the role of underachiever, and that made him prone to self-sabotage.
按照瑞安的说法，他习惯了成绩不佳的角色，这使他容易自我破坏。
It'll be something like a subconscious thing where I know I got an important meeting or something, I got to be somewhere.
这就像潜意识里的事情，我知道我有一个重要的会议或其他事情，我必须去某个地方。
And my brain, I'll have this urge to just, "you know what, just roll over."
而我的大脑，我会有这种冲动，“你知道吗，翻身吧。”
Instead of getting up because I know it's important, it's like, "Just roll over.
我没有因为知道这很重要而站起来，而是说：“翻个身吧。”
Whatever.
无论如何。
It doesn't mean that much.
没什么意义。
You don't need this.
你不需要这个。
It's not that important.
这并不重要。
You don't want it."
你不想要它。”
And I'll oversleep, or I'll be late, or won't show up, something like that.
我会睡过头，或者迟到，或者不出现，诸如此类。
It happens a lot, especially for things that could potentially benefit me.
这种情况经常发生，尤其是那些可能对我有利的事情。
Because some part of me is either "this is stupid" or "you don't deserve it" or something.
因为我内心的某些部分要么是“这很愚蠢”，要么是“你不值得”之类的。
And I'm pretty sure that's depression.
我很确定这就是抑郁症。
For all the potential of his big brain, Ryan had the feeling that life was slipping him by.
尽管瑞安的大脑充满了潜力，但他还是感觉生活正在从他身边溜走。
And when he became a father in his 30s, the question of lost potential became moot.
当他 30 多岁时成为一名父亲时，失去潜力的问题变得毫无意义。
He needed money to live and to provide, so he did all sorts of jobs-- airport security worker, warehouse grunt, package handler, office clerk.
他需要钱来生活和供给，所以他做了各种各样的工作——机场保安人员、仓库工人、包裹搬运工、办公室文员。
Piano mover, water ice guy, worked at UPS, was a cashier, was a bouncer, was a street sweeper for a couple of weeks.
钢琴搬运工，水冰工，在 UPS 工作，当过收银员，当过保镖，当过几周的街道清洁工。
You got to do what you got to do, right?
你必须做你必须做的事，对吗？
But then in January 2021, Ryan got sick with COVID.
但 2021 年 1 月，瑞安感染了新冠病毒。
He had it really bad, and was in hospital for three weeks.
他的情况非常糟糕，在医院住了三个星期。
He had to be given oxygen to stay alive.
他必须吸氧才能维持生命。
And he still has the photo of his saturated lungs, given to him by his doctor as a reminder of how close he came to death.
他还保留着医生给他的肺部饱和照片，以提醒他他离死亡有多近。
When he was discharged, he was a wreck.
当他出院时，他已经崩溃了。
His knee gave out and he got diabetes.
他的膝盖不行了，还得了糖尿病。
More than 20 years of the working grind seemed to catch up to him all at once.
二十多年的辛苦工作似乎一下子就追上了他。
I felt in the moment like I'd wasted my life thus far.
那一刻我觉得到目前为止我已经浪费了生命。
I hadn't done anything I wanted to do.
我没有做任何我想做的事。
I hadn't gone anywhere that I wanted to go.
我没有去任何我想去的地方。
I started feeling like maybe I didn't have a huge amount of time left.
我开始觉得也许我所剩的时间不多了。
My dad died young.
我父亲年轻时就去世了。
His dad died young.
他的父亲很早就去世了。
I didn't want to have to do that to my kid.
我不想对我的孩子这样做。
I found my dad dead.
我发现我爸爸死了。
I thought, if you're going to have a memory of me, have a good one.
我想，如果你想对我有一份美好的回忆。
Getting COVID and surviving it was, in Ryan's own words, "a rockfall that turned into a landslide." It made him want to get out of his old habit of minimizing himself, this urge to snatch defeats from the jaws of victory.
用瑞安自己的话来说，感染新冠病毒并幸存下来是“一场落石变成了山体滑坡”。这让他想要摆脱自我贬低的旧习惯，这种想从胜利的口中夺回失败的冲动。
That's when he got the call from Jeopardy.
就在这时，他接到了《危险边缘》的电话。
He'd taken the online test on a whim.
他一时兴起参加了在线测试。
And now, Ryan thought, this could be the thing he'd been hoping would come along to shake things up.
而现在，瑞安想，这可能就是他一直希望能够改变现状的事情。
That question I'd had about his journey to Jeopardy, it turns out the literal trip was a joint effort.
我对他的危险之旅有疑问，事实证明这次旅行是一次共同努力。
He had about $200 to spare that month, and he had to make his own way to California.
那个月他还有大约 200 美元的闲钱，他不得不自己前往加利福尼亚。
So he turned to his mom and his friends.
所以他转向他的妈妈和他的朋友。
He borrowed his mother's luggage and packed some black trousers plus two shirts-- one he'd bought himself, and the other bought by his mom.
他借了母亲的行李，带了几条黑裤子和两件衬衫——一件是他自己买的，另一件是他母亲买的。
Remember how he made the decision as a teenager to hide his light under a bushel so he could be more normal?
还记得他十几岁时如何决定将自己的光芒隐藏在斗下，这样他就可以变得更正常吗？
Now he was making another decision-- this time the guy whose tendency was to downplay his intelligence and his abilities was not going to get in his own way.
现在他正在做出另一个决定——这一次，那个倾向于低估自己的智力和能力的人不会妨碍他自己。
The work was on me where I had to first acknowledge that I wanted it, give myself permission to want it.
这项工作就在我身上，我必须首先承认我想要它，允许自己想要它。
And say, OK, we're going to do this thing and we're going to do it right and we're not going to screw it up.
然后说，好吧，我们要做这件事，我们会做对，我们不会把事情搞砸。
He got on the plane to California.
他登上了飞往加利福尼亚州的飞机。
He'd never been off the east coast in his life.
他一生中从未离开过东海岸。
He was determined to enjoy himself.
他决心要好好享受。
And he told himself, no expectations.
他告诉自己，不要抱任何期望。
Unlike some other wannabe winners, he did no tutorials on technique, no arduous studying.
与其他一些想成为获胜者的人不同，他没有接受技术辅导，也没有进行艰苦的学习。
These are people that all year long they study, buying books on the buzzer technique and all that.
这些人常年学习，购买有关蜂鸣器技术之类的书籍。
When I've found out that people did that, [LAUGHS] I felt like, oh, should I have studied?
当我发现人们这样做时，[笑]我觉得，哦，我应该学习吗？
I guess, maybe.
我想，也许吧。
You didn't pick up "The Big Book of Jeopardy Questions?"
你没有拿起《危险问题大书》吗？
I didn't have time.
我没有时间。
I was working.
我正在工作。
I was working up until right before I left.
我一直在工作，直到我离开之前。
On the day of his first game Ryan felt overwhelmed, but he worked through it.
在第一场比赛的那天，瑞安感到不知所措，但他克服了它。
He let himself cry, which was an effective release valve for some of the emotional turmoil he was feeling.
他让自己哭泣，这是缓解他所感受到的情绪混乱的有效释放阀。
And then he pumped himself up with some music.
然后他用一些音乐给自己打气。
Once he felt more in control, he headed to the studio to the show he'd watched since he was a little boy in Philly.
一旦他感觉自己更有控制力，他就前往演播室观看他从小在费城观看的演出。
Felt like hallowed ground-- Jeopardy, the stage.
感觉就像圣地——危险边缘，舞台。
When you get up there, it looks exactly like when Luke fought Vader on Bespin in "The Empire Strikes Back," the lighting.
当你到达那里时，它看起来就像《帝国反击战》中卢克在贝斯平与维达战斗时的灯光一样。
Oh, really?
哦真的吗？
Ryan Long The red stair and then the blue background, that was the first thing I noticed when I got up there.
Ryan Long 红色的楼梯，然后是蓝色的背景，这是我上去时注意到的第一件事。
I was like, oh, my god!
我当时想，哦，天哪！
Really felt like something, man.
真的感觉有点像，伙计。
Who is Peter Dinklage?
彼特·丁拉基是谁？
Mayim Bialik Yes, and you just ran that category.
Mayim Bialik 是的，您刚刚运行了该类别。
So that was a somewhat nerdy beginning of his 16-game streak.
所以这是他连续 16 场比赛的一个有点书呆子气的开始。
He puts the success down to two things-- knowing stuff and staying calm under pressure.
他将成功归因于两件事：了解事物和在压力下保持冷静。
Correct.
正确的。
Bim Adewunmi In game mode, Ryan's demeanor was testament to the decision he'd made to go out there and just have fun.
Bim Adewunmi 在游戏模式中，Ryan 的举止证明了他做出的决定：出去享受乐趣。
He laughed at himself when he flubbed the Daily Double, or realized he had bet too low on an easy answer.
当他搞砸了“每日双倍”，或者意识到自己在一个简单的答案上下注太低时，他嘲笑自己。
He delivered his cute little anecdotes in the "getting to know you" segments.
他在“认识你”环节讲述了他的可爱小趣事。
But once the game was won, that easy grace was gone.
但一旦比赛获胜，那种轻松的优雅就消失了。
Congratulations, you are our Jeopardy champion.
恭喜，您成为我们的 Jeopardy 冠军。
Another fantastic week for Ryan Long.
瑞安·朗又度过了美妙的一周。
Instead, when his new total winnings were announced, he'd do that thing I loved.
相反，当他的新总奖金公布时，他会做我喜欢的事情。
The head duck, and looking like he wanted the ground to swallow him up.
头低下，看起来就像他想让地面把他吞掉。
I couldn't believe it I heard it every time.
我简直不敢相信我每次都听到它。
Every time?
每次？
Ryan Long Every time I heard it, I was like, this-- nah.
Ryan Long 每次我听到这个，我都会想，这个——不。
I don't think I could-- that didn't happen to me, [LAUGHS] you know?
我不认为我可以——这没有发生在我身上，[笑]你知道吗？
So I guess Ryan and I met on the very first day.
所以我猜瑞安和我是第一天就认识的。
Well, my only day of taping on Jeopardy, and Ryan's second day, I guess it was?
好吧，这是我在 Jeopardy 上录制的唯一一天，也是 Ryan 的第二天，我猜是吧？
That's Brad Pearson.
那是布拉德·皮尔森。
He was a challenger of Ryan's, also a Philly local.
他是瑞安的挑战者，瑞安也是费城当地人。
The two of them stayed friends after the show.
演出结束后，两人仍然是朋友。
They even had a little watch party at Brad's house the night his episode aired.
他们甚至在布拉德的剧集播出当晚在他家里举办了一个小型观看派对。
Over cheesesteaks, he told us about playing against Ryan in his fifth game.
一边吃奶酪牛排，他一边向我们讲述了他第五场比赛对阵瑞安的经历。
Contestants get to watch preceding games before they tape theirs.
参赛者可以在录制比赛之前观看之前的比赛。
And all eyes were on Ryan, the returning champ, game after game.
一场又一场比赛，所有人的目光都集中在这位回归的冠军瑞恩身上。
Brad was sitting with Tony, another of the pool of challengers.
布拉德和托尼坐在一起，托尼是另一位挑战者。
As the day progressed, Tony turns to me at one point during the third game, and he goes, "He's only getting stronger!"
随着时间的推移，托尼在第三场比赛中一度转向我，他说：“他只会变得更强！”
[LAUGHS] Brad noted the same thing I did-- that Ryan was a real all-rounder, banging out answers to everything from biblical locations, to the alumni of Saturday Night Live.
[笑]布拉德也注意到了我所做的同样的事情——瑞安是一位真正的多面手，从圣经地点到《周六夜现场》的校友，他都能找到所有问题的答案。
When I think of Ryan as a player, the thing is that you find certain people that are good at some really specific stuff.
当我将瑞恩视为一名球员时，问题是你会发现某些人擅长某些特定的事情。
But Ryan's knowledge is so across the board, and also does really good on things that--
但瑞安的知识非常全面，而且在以下方面也做得非常好——
I got to go take a walk.
我得去散步。
Brad Pearson This is going to sound bad, but--
布拉德·皮尔森 这听起来很糟糕，但是——
Ryan actually moved away when Brad was talking about him so admiringly.
当布拉德如此钦佩地谈论他时，瑞安实际上走开了。
It's like the glare of praise was too bright for his eyes.
就好像赞美的目光对他的眼睛来说太明亮了。
He couldn't look directly at it.
他无法直视它。
He did something similar when his mom bragged about him, and again when his friend Mari, who we also met, mentioned how great of a guy he was.
当他妈妈吹嘘他时，他也做了类似的事情，当我们也认识的他的朋友玛丽提到他是一个多么伟大的人时，他也做了类似的事情。
His face got all scrunched up, like it physically pained him to hear.
他的脸皱成一团，仿佛听到这句话让他感到身体上的疼痛。
But even so, over the course of his games, he beat contestants with far more impressive on-paper CVs.
但即便如此，在比赛过程中，他还是以更令人印象深刻的纸上简历击败了参赛者。
Even after winning, he knew that he wasn't seen as a typical Jeopardy winner.
即使获胜后，他也知道自己并不被视为典型的 Jeopardy 获胜者。
I don't look smart, whatever that means.
我看起来并不聪明，不管这意味着什么。
I look like a bruiser.
我看起来像个大汉。
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Ryan Long And people underestimate me a lot.
Ryan Long 人们都低估了我。
I know I'm kind of smart.
我知道我有点聪明。
I know what I can do.
我知道我能做什么。
There was a little tiny bit of class satisfaction.
有一点点课堂满意度。
I don't mind admitting it--
我不介意承认——
Yeah?
是吗？
Ryan Long --that I came in and beat all these wonderful people.
Ryan Long——我进来并击败了所有这些优秀的人。
People like my mom, people like me, we've always watched the show.
像我妈妈这样的人，像我这样的人，我们一直都在看这个节目。
We've just never been represented on the show before, I guess you could say.
我想你可能会说，我们以前从未参加过这个节目。
But we're out here.
但我们就在这儿。
Ryan's tweet thread about the box, he'd written that he didn't really believe a person could break out of the box.
在瑞安关于盒子的推文中，他写道，他真的不相信有人可以冲出盒子。
But, he added, I feel like this thing that just happened is proof that you can.
但是，他补充说，我觉得刚刚发生的这件事证明你可以。
And I wondered what he'd found outside of the box since he had managed to get out.
我想知道自从他成功逃脱后，他在盒子外面发现了什么。
Returning to Philly, it was hard for Ryan to know how to act.
回到费城后，瑞恩一时不知该如何行动。
His episodes wouldn't be on television for another few weeks.
他的剧集还要几周才能在电视上播出。
It was like he had to pretend something monumental hadn't just happened to him.
就好像他必须假装一些重大的事情不是刚刚发生在他身上一样。
There's no way to talk about Ryan's time on the show without talking about the money he won.
谈论瑞安在节目中的时光就不能不谈论他赢得的钱。
$299,400 is quite the windfall.
299,400美元是一笔意外之财。
He no longer works as a rideshare driver, having paid off his old car and bought this new truck.
他不再担任拼车司机，还清了旧车的贷款并购买了这辆新卡车。
On the advice of his mom, he met up with a couple of people from a community improvement group for advice about what to do with this new earnings.
在母亲的建议下，他会见了社区改善小组的几个人，寻求如何处理这笔新收入的建议。
Their advice was that he prioritize himself first, a concept that was completely foreign to him, and set up a chain reaction of self improvements.
他们的建议是，他首先要优先考虑自己，这是一个对他来说完全陌生的概念，并建立了自我改进的连锁反应。
I wasn't a very reflective person, or anything like that, and I neglected myself for about 30 years.
我不是一个善于反思的人，或者类似的人，我忽视了自己大约30年。
So I figured now is the time.
所以我想现在是时候了。
I have a rare chance, which it seems like a lot of Americans don't have anymore.
我有一个难得的机会，但似乎很多美国人已经不再有这个机会了。
Because I got time to improve myself, take a real good look at myself, you know?
因为我有时间提高自己，好好审视自己，你知道吗？
Ryan started working out again.
瑞安又开始锻炼了。
He got himself a therapist.
他给自己找了一位治疗师。
He went digging in his family tree and found a book written by his third-time great grandfather, a staunch Methodist abolitionist.
他深入挖掘自己的家谱，发现了一本书，作者是他的第三任曾祖父，一位坚定的卫理公会废奴主义者。
And he bought movies.
他还买了电影。
I love, love, love films.
我爱、爱、爱电影。
I'll buy the extra special deluxe, whatever, whatever, if I can.
如果可以的话，我会买额外的特别豪华版，无论如何，无论如何。
So every July, The Criterion sale is 50% off, and every year something happens and I can't afford to go.
所以每年 7 月，The Criterion 都会有 50% 的折扣，而且每年都会发生一些事情，但我却没钱去。
And I was like, I'm going this year.
我当时想，我今年要去。
[SNAPS] Going!
[快照] 出发！
[LAUGHS] What's the first one you're going to watch, do you reckon?
[笑]你觉得你第一个要看的是什么？
Oh, you know, I think I'm going to watch Raging Bull.
哦，你知道，我想我要看《愤怒的公牛》。
I heard The Criterion was coming out with the 4K, I was like, oh, my god, yes!
我听说 The Criterion 即将推出 4K 版本，我心想，哦，天哪，是的！
It's so great.
太棒了。
It's a great movie-- difficult to watch though.
这是一部很棒的电影——虽然很难看。
--in places.
——在一些地方。
Ryan Long Difficult, but it's also difficult because every man can recognize a part of himself in Jake LaMotta-- like some small part, some of us more than others.
瑞安·朗 很难，但这也很困难，因为每个人都能在杰克·拉莫塔身上认出自己的一部分——就像某个小部分，我们中的一些人比其他人更能认出自己。
But we all have that ugly competitive sort of thing inside us, however small, or that ugly, self-loathing type beast.
但我们内心都有那种丑陋的竞争性的东西，无论多么小，或者是那种丑陋的、自我厌恶的野兽。
Getting to finally buy Criterion movies, working on his LaMotta style self-loathing, spending hours researching family history, the whole "Project Ryan," it's being facilitated by the most precious commodity his Jeopardy run brought him.
最终购买 Criterion 电影，致力于解决拉莫塔式的自我厌恶，花大量时间研究家族史，整个“瑞恩计划”，都是由他参加 Jeopardy 活动给他带来的最珍贵的商品所推动的。
So, clearly, Jeopardy changed your life.
所以，很明显，《危险边缘》改变了你的生活。
So what is your life now?
那么你现在的生活是怎样的呢？
It allowed me the opportunity to have time to do this, which I wouldn't have had time to do anyway.
它让我有机会有时间去做这件事，而我本来就没有时间去做这件事。
What's this?
这是什么？
Ryan Long It-- examine myself, I guess.
Ryan Long 我想，检查一下我自己。
Just everything before, looking where I come from and what makes me tick.
就是之前的一切，看看我来自哪里，是什么让我兴奋。
It's a valuable thing.
这是一件很有价值的事情。
I think everybody needs to do it, but not everybody has time to do it.
我认为每个人都需要这样做，但不是每个人都有时间这样做。
So that's the biggest post-Jeopardy change is just an abundance of time for you now?
那么，《危险边缘》之后最大的变化就是你现在有充裕的时间了？
Yeah.
是的。
That's the most valuable thing that I got out of this.
这是我从中得到的最有价值的东西。
Not the money?
不是钱吗？
Ryan Long Well, the money made the time possible.
Ryan Long 嗯，钱让时间成为可能。
They say money can't buy happiness, but it buys everything that makes you happy-- even time.
人们说金钱买不到幸福，但它可以买到一切让你幸福的东西——甚至是时间。
I had come to Philly to talk to Ryan about navigating outside expectations as they crashed up against what he thought about himself, and I got that.
我来费城是为了和瑞安讨论如何应对外界的期望，因为这些期望与他对自己的看法相冲突，我明白了。
But I also got this accidental reflection on American capitalism, and how so many of us are served so poorly by the way life is currently set up as all work and no time.
但我也对美国资本主义产生了这种偶然的反思，以及我们中的许多人在目前只工作、没有时间的生活方式中生活得如此糟糕。
Jeopardy provided a very specific Ryan-shaped escape hatch.
Jeopardy 提供了一个非常特殊的瑞安形状的逃生舱口。
It gave him the space to stare into that crack between realities, and fish out all the elements of what his life could be.
它给了他空间来凝视现实之间的裂缝，并找出他生活中的所有元素。
Bim Adewunmi is one of the producers of our show.
Bim Adewunmi 是我们节目的制作人之一。
Our program was produced today by Lilly Sullivan.
我们今天的节目由莉莉·沙利文制作。
People who put together our show include Bim Adewunmi, Elna Baker, Zoe Chace, Sean Cole, Michal Comite, Aviva DeKornfeld, Cassie Howley, Chana Joffe-Walt, Valerie Kipnis, Tobin Low, Stowe Nelson, Katherine Rae Mondo, Nadia Reiman, Ryan Rumery, Alissa Shipp, Laura Starecheski, Christopher Swetala, Marisa Robertson-Textor, Matt Tierney, and Diane Wu.
制作我们节目的人员包括 Bim Adewunmi、Elna Baker、Zoe Chace、Sean Cole、Michal Comite、Aviva DeKornfeld、Cassie Howley、Chana Joffe-Walt、Valerie Kipnis、Tobin Low、Stowe Nelson、Katherine Rae Mondo、Nadia Reiman、Ryan Rumery、Alissa Shipp、Laura Starecheski、Christopher Swetala、Marisa罗伯逊-特克斯特、马特·蒂尔尼和黛安·吴。
Our managing editor, Sarah Abdurrahman.
我们的总编辑莎拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼。
Our senior editor is David Kestenbaum.
我们的高级编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。
Our executive editor is Emanuele Berry.
我们的执行编辑是 Emanuele Berry。
Special thanks today to Nathan Rott, Kateryna Malofieieva, Jessica Huseman, Troy Harvard, Stacey Behymer, Lizzy Berryman, Rachel VanLandingham, Jake Perlman and Jacob Rockey.
今天特别感谢 Nathan Rott、Kateryna Malofieieva、Jessica Huseman、TroyHarvard、Stacey Behymer、Lizzy Berryman、Rachel VanLandingham、Jake Perlman 和 Jacob Rockey。
Our website, where you can stream our archive of over 700 episodes for absolutely free during your holiday travel, and where we have merch for all your gift giving needs, including new t-shirts, sweatshirts, and onesies, posters, temporary tattoos.
在我们的网站上，您可以在假期旅行期间完全免费地观看我们的 700 多集档案，并且我们提供满足您所有送礼需求的商品，包括新 T 恤、运动衫、连体衣、海报、临时纹身。
Where does all this magic happen?
所有这些魔法发生在哪里？
ThisAmericanLife.org.
ThisAmericanLife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia, he has always wanted that job at NASA-- you know the one doing the countdown when they launch a rocket?
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人托里·马拉蒂亚 (Torey Malatia) 先生，他一直想在 NASA 得到这份工作——你知道火箭发射时倒计时的那个人吗？
But I don't know, I don't think he's got the right stuff.
但我不知道，我不认为他有合适的东西。
Three, two, one?
三、二、一？
Ira Glass I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 我是艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass），下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
This American Life This American Life 与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。