784: Mapmaker, Mapmaker, Make Me a Map - This American Life

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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #784 | November 4, 2022 784: Mapmaker, Mapmaker, Make Me a Map Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.

00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 784 集 | 2022 年 11 月 4 日 784：地图制作者，地图制作者，给我制作一张地图 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。

If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.

如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。

Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.

文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。

Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.

请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。

Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass OK, so this week, like the rest of us, Ohio is going to the polls.

序言：序言 Ira Glass 好的，本周，像我们其他人一样，俄亥俄州将进行投票。

And in Ohio, there are more people who vote Republican there, but not a lot more.

在俄亥俄州，投票共和党的人较多，但也不是很多。

Donald Trump and Barack Obama each carried the state twice.

唐纳德·特朗普和巴拉克·奥巴马各两次赢得该州胜利。

If the Congressional delegation reflected the breakdown of Democratic and Republican voters in the state, they would have eight Republicans and seven Democrats sitting in the House of Representatives.

如果国会代表团反映了该州民主党和共和党选民的细分情况，那么众议院将有八名共和党人和七名民主党人。

But right now, it is not that.

但现在，情况并非如此。

There are not seven Democrats.

民主党人还不到七个。

There are four.

有四个。

And that's probably the best outcome the Democrats can hope for in this week's election.

这可能是民主党在本周的选举中所能期望的最好结果。

In fact, they could do worse, which, of course, would hurt the Democrats' chances for holding control of the US House of Representatives.

事实上，他们可能会做得更糟，这当然会损害民主党控制美国众议院的机会。

And why, you may ask, are Democrats only going to take two or three or four seats and not seven?

您可能会问，为什么民主党只会获得两个、三个或四个席位，而不是七个？

At one level, it doesn't have anything to do with the issues or politics or Biden or anything like that.

在某种程度上，它与问题、政治、拜登或类似的事情没有任何关系。

It really just comes down to gerrymandering.

这实际上只是归结为不公正地划分选区。

The districts are drawn to favor the Republicans, mostly by smashing lots of Democrats into just a few districts, giving Republicans majorities in the rest of them.

这些选区被吸引来支持共和党，主要是通过将大量民主党人压入少数几个选区，让共和党在其余选区占据多数。

In Ohio, those districts are about as bad as they come.

在俄亥俄州，这些地区的情况已经很糟糕了。

But here's what's different about Ohio.

但这就是俄亥俄州的不同之处。

A few years back, something very unusual happened.

几年前，发生了一件非常不寻常的事情。

Republicans and Democrats came together, and they said, enough.

共和党人和民主党人走到一起，他们说，够了。

They changed the state's constitution so the districts would be drawn fairly at last.

他们修改了州宪法，因此选区最终能够公平划分。

70% of voters in 2015 and 2018 approved this.

2015年和2018年70%的选民批准了这一点。

Arnold Schwarzenegger-- he's fought against gerrymandering going back to when he was governor of California.

阿诺·施瓦辛格——从担任加利福尼亚州州长时起，他就一直反对不公正地划分选区。

He tweeted a congratulatory video.

他在推特上发布了一段祝贺视频。

And I also want to congratulate the legislators, Democrats and Republicans alike, for coming together, and all of you together have terminated gerrymandering in Ohio.

我还要祝贺立法者，民主党人和共和党人齐心协力，共同终止了俄亥俄州的选区划分不公。

That's fantastic.

太棒了。

Hard not to love how on-brand that guy is.

很难不喜欢这个家伙的品牌形象。

That's a huge victory, getting rid of gerrymandering, which is the worst thing in America.

这是一个巨大的胜利，消除了不公正的选区划分，这是美国最糟糕的事情。

It was a rare kumbaya political moment.

这是一个罕见的昆巴亚政治时刻。

The Republican governor of Ohio, John Kasich, was praising Democrats and voters rights groups, making idealistic speeches.

俄亥俄州共和党州长约翰·卡西奇赞扬民主党和选民权利团体，发表理想主义演讲。

Listen, this is incredible, what they did.

听着，他们所做的事情太不可思议了。

We're now a model for the country, and it just means we're going to have fair elections.

我们现在是国家的榜样，这意味着我们将举行公平的选举。

They're going to be more competitive.

他们将更具竞争力。

Why does this issue matter so much?

为什么这个问题如此重要？

Well, because when you draw lines in such a way that only one party can win the district, it creates a polarizing effect.

嗯，因为当你以只有一个政党可以赢得该选区的方式划定界限时，就会产生两极分化的效果。

That's because, he says, when candidates don't have to worry about voters from the other party voting them out, their views get more extreme.

他说，这是因为，当候选人不必担心另一党选民投票让他们下台时，他们的观点会变得更加极端。

They play to their base, court voters from their own party with whatever red meat issues are popular.

他们迎合自己的基本盘，用任何流行的红肉问题来吸引自己政党的选民。

And that means we move farther and farther apart as a nation.

这意味着我们作为一个国家的距离越来越远。

And it all leads to-- [COUGHS] excuse me-- getting nothing done.

这一切都会导致——[咳嗽]对不起——一事无成。

This is really big time.

这真是一个大时刻。

This is the beginning of an effort to end all this polarization, get people to communicate, to listen to one another.

这是结束所有两极分化、让人们相互沟通、相互倾听的努力的开始。

That's what this is about.

这就是本文的目的。

And so the new rules of map making went into effect.

于是新的地图制作规则就开始生效了。

Ohio headed into the utopian post-gerrymandering world where people would communicate and polarization would shrink, at least a little.

俄亥俄州正在进入乌托邦式的后选区划分世界，人们可以进行交流，两极分化会缩小，至少会缩小一点。

And in 2021, they got their very first chance to draw new completely fair maps, the maps for the election that we are holding this month and for the decade ahead.

2021 年，他们第一次有机会绘制新的完全公平的地图，即我们本月举行的选举和未来十年的地图。

And then, a funny thing happened.

然后，有趣的事情发生了。

Ohio's newly drawn legislative maps have now been deemed invalid and, in fact, unconstitutional.

俄亥俄州新绘制的立法地图现已被视为无效，实际上是违宪的。

The Ohio Supreme Court said the maps drawn by Republican mapmakers were gerrymandered still.

俄亥俄州最高法院表示，共和党制图者绘制的地图仍然存在不公正划分。

They didn't do the basic things they just enacted a constitutional amendment to do.

他们没有做他们刚刚颁布宪法修正案要做的基本事情。

But OK, everybody knows it's hard for old dogs to learn new tricks.

但是好吧，每个人都知道老狗很难学习新技巧。

Partisans will be partisans, maybe to be expected.

游击队就是游击队，这也许是可以预料到的。

Slapped down by the court, lawmakers got another shot.

被法院驳回后，议员们又得到了一次机会。

They redrew the maps.

他们重新绘制了地图。

Weeks later--

几周后——

Well, now to breaking political news tonight.

好吧，现在来说说今晚的重大政治新闻。

Ohio's Supreme Court is sending Ohio's House and Senate back to the drawing board again.

俄亥俄州最高法院正在将俄亥俄州众议院和参议院再次送回绘图板。

Today the Supreme Court ruled the state's redistricting maps as unconstitutional for the second time in less than a month.

今天，最高法院在不到一个月的时间里第二次裁定该州的选区重新划分地图违宪。

Well, now--

好吧，现在——

That was February.

那是二月。

Lawmakers tried again to draw an ungerrymandered map.

立法者再次试图绘制一张不加干涉的地图。

And in March--

而在三月——

Welcome into Action News at 4 on this St Patrick's Day.

欢迎收看圣帕特里克节当天下午 4 点的《行动新闻》。

And the third time not a lucky charm for Ohio Republican mapmakers.

对于俄亥俄州共和党地图制作者来说，第三次并不是一个幸运符。

The state Supreme Court overturned another set of general assembly maps late Thursday night.

周四深夜，州最高法院推翻了另一套大会地图。

I'm sure you see where this is going.

我相信你知道这是怎么回事。

April.

四月。

Well, 10 TV news at 5 begins with several breaking news stories tonight.

嗯，今晚 5 点的 10 条电视新闻以几则突发新闻开始。

We start at the Ohio Supreme Court.

我们从俄亥俄州最高法院开始。

There, the justices struck down redistricting maps as gerrymandered for the fourth time.

在那里，法官们第四​​次推翻了重新划分选区的地图，因为它不公正地划分选区。

And then, May.

然后，五月。

Reporter 6 The Ohio Supreme Court rejecting legislative maps for a fifth time.

记者 6 俄亥俄州最高法院第五次驳回立法地图。

OK, yes, in all, the maps of Ohio State House were rejected five times.

好吧，是的，俄亥俄州议会大厦的地图总共被拒绝了五次。

And then, on top of that, when it came to its representatives to the US Congress, those districts were rejected twice.

然后，最重要的是，当谈到美国国会的代表时，这些选区两次被拒绝。

And then, time ran out.

然后，时间就到了。

There's no more time to redraw any maps.

没有更多的时间重新绘制任何地图。

Because of all that, Ohio is going to be going to the polls this week with maps its Supreme Court has declared unconstitutional-- illegal, just deeply gerrymandered.

正因为如此，俄亥俄州本周将带着最高法院宣布违宪的地图进行投票——非法，而且严重不公正地划分选区。

How did they end up here?

他们怎么会来到这里？

How is that even possible?

这怎么可能？

Well, that's a story I'm here to tell you today.

嗯，这就是我今天要告诉你们的一个故事。

A bunch of states are going to the polls this week with gerrymandered districts that heavily favor one side over the other.

本周，一些州将进行民意调查，其中选区不公正划分，严重偏向一方。

But in Ohio this year, it wasn't supposed to be that way.

但今年在俄亥俄州，情况不应该是这样的。

From WBEZ Chicago, it's "This American Life." I'm Ira Glass.

来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的歌曲是“This American Life”。我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Stay with us, voters.

选民们，留在我们身边。

Act one-- They made each other a pledge.

第一幕——他们互相许下承诺。

Unheard of.

闻所未闻。

Absurd.

荒诞。

OK, so when I first started looking into this, one of the things I really didn't understand was how did Ohio end up with this constitutional amendment at all to fix the way they draw districts.

好吧，当我第一次开始研究这个问题时，我真正不明白的一件事是俄亥俄州是如何最终通过这项宪法修正案来解决他们绘制选区的方式的。

After all, if you think about it, whichever party was in power, they had no motive at all to want to change.

毕竟，你想一想，无论哪一个政党执政，他们都没有任何想要改变的动机。

Democrats, in fact, happily gerrymandered for years and years, and they killed gerrymandering reform in Ohio-- most recently, back in 2010.

事实上，民主党人多年来一直愉快地进行选区划分，他们扼杀了俄亥俄州的选区划分改革——最近一次是在 2010 年。

Lately, of course, it's been the Republicans drawing unfair districts.

当然，最近是共和党划定了不公平的选区。

The majorities are so overwhelming at this point, the Senate president has said, publicly, "We can kind of do what we want," which is true.

在这一点上，多数人是如此压倒性，参议院主席公开表示，“我们可以做我们想做的事”，这是事实。

Republican supermajorities in Ohio pass laws like, for example, the one that banned abortion, even in the case of rape and incest.

俄亥俄州的共和党绝大多数通过了禁止堕胎的法律，即使是在强奸和乱伦的情况下也是如此。

In June, you probably remember this led to a 10-year-old Ohio girl who'd been raped to have to go to Indiana for an abortion.

六月份，你可能还记得这导致一名 10 岁的俄亥俄州女孩被强奸，不得不前往印第安纳州堕胎。

In a state that a majority supports Roe v.

在大多数人支持罗伊诉的州。

Wade, I dare say 5% or fewer Ohioans agree with how that 10-year-old was treated.

韦德，我敢说只有 5% 或更少的俄亥俄州人同意那个 10 岁孩子的待遇。

David Pepper used to run the Democratic Party in the state, but became so alarmed at the kinds of laws he saw the Republican supermajority passing and the way they rigged maps to stay in power, that he wrote a book, Laboratories of Autocracy, documenting it.

大卫·佩珀（David Pepper）曾经在该州领导民主党，但他对共和党绝大多数通过的法律以及他们操纵地图以维持权力的方式感到非常震惊，因此他写了一本书《独裁实验室》，记录了这些法律。

It's a state that only a few months ago passed a bill because they were so worried about trans athletes that said that, on demand, girls playing on sports teams and of all ages should on demand have genital inspections-- genital inspections.

该州仅在几个月前就通过了一项法案，因为他们非常担心跨性别运动员，该法案规定，在运动队中打球的所有年龄段的女孩都应该根据要求进行生殖器检查——生殖器检查。

But that extremism does not reflect the people.

但这种极端主义并不反映人民。

Very few people would support it.

很少有人会支持。

Same with guns-- this is a state that the vast majorities would support background checks.

与枪支一样——在这个州，绝大多数人都支持背景调查。

The legislature passes laws where only 10% or so agree with them.

立法机关通过的法律只有 10% 左右的人同意。

And so the gerrymandering is, again, not just about a unearned majority control.

因此，不公正地划分选区不仅仅是为了获得不劳而获的多数控制权。

It's what is fueling the extremism and behavior from politicians that I think most Americans can't understand.

我认为大多数美国人无法理解，这正是助长政客的极端主义和行为的原因。

It's about no competition whatsoever.

这是没有任何竞争的。

So whoever's in power has good reasons to keep gerrymandering.

因此，无论谁掌权，都有充分的理由继续不公正地划分选区。

And in Ohio, whenever anybody has tried to stop them, they've failed.

在俄亥俄州，每当有人试图阻止他们时，他们都会失败。

It's been a long history of hard fought battles going back to the early '80s.

这场艰苦战斗的历史可以追溯到 80 年代初。

Catherine Turcer, who runs one of the do-gooder groups that's active on this issue, Common Cause Ohio, she jumped into the fight in the 1990s when she first heard about gerrymandering and got hooked.

凯瑟琳·特瑟 (Catherine Turcer) 是俄亥俄州共同事业组织 (Common Cause Ohio) 的负责人，该组织积极关注这一问题。 20 世纪 90 年代，当她第一次听说不公正划分选区并着迷时，她就加入了这场斗争。

You know, at first, it just sounds like some kind of weird conspiracy, something that happens every 10 years behind closed doors, and it's--

你知道，一开始，这听起来像是某种奇怪的阴谋，每十年就会秘密发生一次，而且它是——

Nearly everybody you're going to hear this hour has some moment like this, where the arcane details of political redistricting took over their lives.

这一小时你要听到的几乎每个人都经历过这样的时刻，政治重新划分的神秘细节占据了他们的生活。

In the '90s, Catherine gathered signatures to put a constitutional amendment on the Ohio ballot, which takes hundreds of thousands of signatures.

90 年代，凯瑟琳在俄亥俄州选票上收集了宪法修正案的签名，需要数十万个签名。

They couldn't collect enough.

他们收集的不够多。

She worked on the statewide campaign, and they tried again in 2005.

她参与了全州范围内的竞选活动，他们在 2005 年再次尝试。

This time, they got on the ballot, and voters rejected them horribly-- 70% to 30%.

这一次，他们参加了投票，但选民以 70% 比 30% 的比例惨烈地拒绝了他们。

Tried again in 2012, lost again, similar margin.

2012年再次尝试，再次失败，利润率相似。

Catherine describes what that feels like this way.

凯瑟琳这样描述那种感觉。

I had to-- I was in a really terrible car accident, and I had to relearn to walk.

我不得不——我遭遇了一场非常严重的车祸，我不得不重新学习走路。

And--

还有——

Wow.

哇。

Catherine Turcer --I've recovered from cancer.

凯瑟琳·特瑟——我的癌症已经康复。

I have gotten a divorce.

我已经离婚了。

None of them are as awful as losing a ballot measure.

其中没有一个比失去一项选票措施更糟糕。

Wait, a divorce-- I just want to go through the list again.

等等，离婚——我只想再看一遍清单。

A divorce--

离婚——

[LAUGHS] Ira Glass --cancer, and getting in a terrible car accident where you have to learn to walk afterwards--

[笑] Ira Glass——癌症，以及遭遇可怕的车祸，事后你必须学会走路——

Yes.

是的。

Ira Glass --not as bad as losing a ballot measure.

艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）——没有失去一项选票那么糟糕。

Because you just have to do it all over again.

因为你只需要重新做一遍。

And why did you lose so badly, like if this is just sort of sensible good government, let's have fair district lines?

为什么你输得这么惨，如果这只是明智的好政府，让我们有公平的地区界限？

So the opposition-- oh my gosh, they spent so much money-- just talked about how crazy the redistricting map would be, and then they spent millions of dollars-- basically things like faceless bureaucrats are going to draw the district lines.

所以反对派——天哪，他们花了那么多钱——只是谈论了重新划分选区的地图将是多么疯狂，然后他们就花了数百万美元——基本上像不露面的官僚之类的东西将用来划定选区界限。

Oh, and they're going to spend unlimited amounts of money on this mapmaking process.

哦，他们将在这个地图制作过程中花费无限的金钱。

You have no idea how much money they're going to be spending.

你不知道他们会花多少钱。

So the year all this partisanship ended, or at least paused, and all the parties sat down to fix mapmaking in Ohio, was 2014.

因此，所有这些党派之争都结束了，或者至少暂停了，所有各方坐下来讨论俄亥俄州的地图制作问题，这一年是 2014 年。

And there are a bunch of reasons that it happened that year.

那年发生的事情有很多原因。

One big reason-- the map that the Republicans had just drawn in the last round of map making was so undeniably lopsided, some of the laws the new majority started passing were more inflammatory than in the past, especially this measure to try to bust up public unions, which led to protests and a ballot measure.

一个很大的原因是，共和党在上一轮制图中刚刚绘制的地图无可否认地不平衡，新多数派开始通过的一些法律比过去更具煽动性，尤其是这项试图破坏公共工会的措施，引发了抗议和投票措施。

After that, a lot more people took notice of how weird the districts looked.

此后，更多的人注意到这些地区看起来有多么奇怪。

Republicans started worrying that the Democrats and the good government groups were going to bring a ballot measure to change the constitution and end gerrymandering.

共和党人开始担心民主党和优秀的政府团体将提出一项投票措施来修改宪法并结束不公正的选区划分。

And of course, they defeated these kinds of measures in the past, but this time, there was one new factor that was going to make it harder.

当然，他们过去曾击败过这些措施，但这一次，一个新的因素会让事情变得更加困难。

And to explain that part, let me just introduce you to the mastermind behind the Republican strategy in Ohio when it comes to redistricting and map drawing, one of the leading Republicans in the state, Matt Huffman.

为了解释这一部分，让我向您介绍一下俄亥俄州共和党在重新划分选区和绘制地图方面的战略背后的策划者，该州的主要共和党人之一马特·霍夫曼(Matt Huffman)。

Back when he and I spoke, I was still trying to figure out who was the person who first had the idea for the 2015 constitutional amendment to curtail gerrymandering, like who is the person who got everybody else on board.

当他和我谈话时，我仍在试图弄清楚谁是第一个提出 2015 年宪法修正案以限制选区不公正的想法的人，就像谁是让其他人都同意的人一样。

Somebody had told me that it was Catherine Turcer, the woman from Common Cause.

有人告诉我那是凯瑟琳·特瑟，来自共同事业的女人。

Matt Huffman was very clear on this point.

马特·霍夫曼在这一点上说得非常清楚。

It was not Catherine Turcer.

那不是凯瑟琳·特瑟。

It was not Catherine Turcer.

那不是凯瑟琳·特瑟。

It was a young state representative Matt Huffman who introduced this, and I'll tell you why-- personally, why I ended up doing that.

是一位年轻的州代表马特·霍夫曼（Matt Huffman）介绍了这一点，我会告诉你为什么——就我个人而言，为什么我最终这样做了。

That checks out, by the way, with people who are close to the process.

顺便说一句，这会与熟悉流程的人进行检查。

Matt Huffman says all this began after he fought to stop one of those ballot initiatives to get rid of gerrymandering.

马特·霍夫曼说，这一切都是在他努力阻止一项旨在消除选区划分选区的投票举措之后开始的。

This is the one in 2012, the second one in 10 years.

这是2012年的第一次，也是10年来的第二次。

People spend a lot of money saying, yes, no, this is outrageous, gerrymandering.

人们花了很多钱说，是的，不是，这是令人愤慨的，不公正地划分选区。

And I went around the state, and I raised money and lots of folks said, gee, we seem to be doing this a lot.

我走遍了全州，筹集了资金，很多人说，天哪，我们似乎经常这样做。

We'll give you money, but isn't there anything you can do so we don't have to keep having this fight every three or four years?

我们会给你钱，但是你能做点什么，这样我们就不必每三四年再打一次仗吗？

Yeah, the thing that I had heard was that the Chamber of Commerce said, like, we shouldn't be spending our money on this.

是的，我听到商会说，我们不应该把钱花在这上面。

We should be spending money on races and getting people to win.

我们应该把钱花在比赛上，让人们获胜。

And that's right?

是这样吗？

Yeah, well, that's a-- I mean, I'm not recalling a specific conversation in the Chamber of Commerce, but those, typically Republican, groups.

是的，嗯，那是——我的意思是，我不记得商会的具体对话，而是那些通常是共和党的团体。

People did say to me in 2012, we're not going to write checks for this anymore.

2012 年人们确实对我说过，我们不会再为此开支票了。

Go solve the problem.

去解决问题吧。

Can't you come up with some compromise?

你就不能想出一些妥协的办法吗？

We almost had one in 2010, the Republicans in the Senate.

2010 年，共和党几乎进入了参议院。

And I said, yeah, but the Democrats wouldn't do it.

我说，是的，但民主党不会这样做。

Well, maybe they'll do it now.

好吧，也许他们现在就会这么做。

So, OK, I'm going to take a shot at it.

所以，好吧，我要尝试一下。

Huffman sees himself as somebody who almost compulsively wants to jump at a problem and try to solve it, and even his opponents say that he is an enormously creative legislator.

霍夫曼认为自己是一个几乎不由自主地想要解决问题并试图解决它的人，甚至他的对手也说他是一位极具创造力的立法者。

Back then, he'd just been through hearings where Democrats and Republicans both talked about what they'd want to see in a constitutional reform of gerrymandering.

当时，他刚刚参加完听证会，民主党人和共和党人都谈到了他们希望在不公正选区的宪法改革中看到什么。

And he and everybody else saw possibilities for compromise.

他和其他人都看到了妥协的可能性。

So five negotiators went into a room in the State House for secret talks that one of them told me lasted 39 hours.

于是，五名谈判代表走进州议会大厦的一个房间进行秘密会谈，其中一人告诉我，会谈持续了 39 个小时。

Huffman and the bigwigs in the parties signed on, and the two sides came to relatively quick agreement-- on some of the rules, anyway-- for map drawing that now appear in the Constitution.

霍夫曼和两党的大人物签署了协议，双方相对较快地就现在出现在宪法中的地图绘制达成了一致——无论如何，在一些规则上。

Districts have to be as compact as possible.

区域必须尽可能紧凑。

They shouldn't sprawl out in weird shapes.

它们不应该以奇怪的形状蔓延。

Whenever possible, if there's a township or county, it should all sit in one district, or if it's too big for that, in two districts, with as few divisions in it as possible.

只要有可能，有一个乡、一个县，就全部设在一个区，太大的话，就设在两个区，分区尽量少。

I was told by other negotiators that last item was very important to Matt Huffman during the negotiations.

其他谈判代表告诉我，最后一项对马特·霍夫曼在谈判过程中非常重要。

And when I talked to him, he said that particular item was helpful to him personally as the guy in charge of drawing the Republican political maps, and not because it helped him fight Democrats.

当我与他交谈时，他说这个特定项目对他个人作为负责绘制共和党政治地图的人有帮助，而不是因为它帮助他与民主党作战。

I thought this actually gave a fascinating glimpse into what it is like to be a political boss like him, trying to keep his allies in line and on the same page.

我认为这实际上让我们对像他这样的政治大佬有了一个有趣的了解，试图让他的盟友保持一致并保持一致。

Much of the problem with redistricting is not party versus party.

选区重新划分的大部分问题不是政党与政党之间的问题。

It's intraparty wrangling and ridiculous demands made by legislators about having this county in their district-- or their hometown.

这是党内的争论和立法者提出的关于将这个县纳入他们的地区或他们的家乡的荒谬要求。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Matt Huffman And it's not-- it's not fair.

马特·霍夫曼：这不——这不公平。

It's not realistic.

这不现实。

I want to have that township because that's where my daughter lives or my restaurant is there, or I at least want to be included in that congressional district because-- and this happened because I may want to run for Congress because I think that guy is going to retire.

我想要拥有那个城镇，因为那是我女儿住的地方，或者我的餐馆就在那儿，或者我至少想被纳入那个国会选区，因为——而发生这种情况是因为我可能想竞选国会议员，因为我认为那个人要退休了。

We can say, we're not allowed to do that because we're not allowed to split townships in half.

我们可以说，我们不被允许这样做，因为我们不被允许将乡镇一分为二。

And it's an answer to a lot of bad behavior on both sides of the aisle.

这是对两党许多不良行为的回应。

Meanwhile, what Democrats and good government groups wanted in the constitution was something to guarantee that the district maps would not favor one party over another.

与此同时，民主党人和优秀的政府团体希望宪法能够保证选区地图不会偏向某一党派。

And they knew it wasn't enough just to say the words, "You can't favor one party over another."

他们知道仅仅说出“你不能偏袒某一方而不偏向另一方”这句话是不够的。

Florida put that wording into its constitution, and it was vague enough that it led to years of lawsuits.

佛罗里达州将这一措辞写入了宪法，但其含糊之处导致了多年的诉讼。

So these people in Ohio wanted some kind of measurement in the constitution, some way to determine whether a map was fair or not that everybody agreed to.

因此，俄亥俄州的人们希望在宪法中进行某种衡量，以某种方式来确定地图是否公平，并得到所有人的同意。

Catherine explains what they came up with.

凯瑟琳解释了他们的想法。

Essentially, what's in the Ohio constitution is that we look at the statewide elections over the past decade.

从本质上讲，俄亥俄州宪法的内容是我们审视过去十年的全州选举。

So in 10 years, those statewide races-- and you can think of president.

所以十年后，那些全州范围内的竞选——你可以想到总统。

You can think of senator, governor, et cetera.

你可以想到参议员、州长等等。

You take all of those.

你把所有这些都拿走。

You put them together, meaning you add up the Democratic votes, and you add up the Republican votes.

你把它们放在一起，这意味着你把民主党的选票加起来，然后把共和党的选票加起来。

I mean, you do that in Ohio, you see that 46% of the votes that people cast were for Democrats over the last 10 years.

我的意思是，如果你在俄亥俄州这样做，你会发现过去 10 年人们投出的选票中有 46% 投给了民主党。

54% were for Republicans.

54% 是共和党人。

And so 46% of its state house districts should be districts with more Democrats in them, and 54% of those districts should have more Republicans.

因此，46% 的州议会选区应该是民主党人较多的选区，而其中 54% 的选区应该是共和党人较多的地区。

One of the five negotiators, former political science professor Richard Gunther, came up with this idea, which he calls proportional representation.

五名谈判代表之一、前政治学教授理查德·冈瑟提出了这个想法，他称之为比例代表制。

Meaning that the share of seats leaning towards one party or another should closely correspond to the share of votes cast for those two parties.

这意味着倾向于某一政党或另一政党的席位比例应与这两党的得票比例密切相关。

So you're starting from a level playing field.

所以你是从一个公平的竞争环境开始的。

So you invent this thing.

所以你发明了这个东西。

Richard Gunther Yep.

理查德·冈瑟 是的。

It is not in any constitution of any state in the US.

它不存在于美国任何州的任何宪法中。

Any state but Ohio.

除俄亥俄州外的任何州。

When voters overwhelmingly approved the new rules, the Democrats and good government types were cautiously optimistic, like Catherine Turcer.

当选民以压倒性多数批准新规则时，民主党人和凯瑟琳·特瑟等优秀政府类型都持谨慎乐观的态度。

She said they all knew it wasn't perfect.

她说他们都知道这并不完美。

They made compromises.

他们做出了妥协。

It was the only way to get it passed.

这是让它通过的唯一方法。

There might be a few games, but that these elected officials would do their best to meet the rules.

可能会有几场比赛，但这些民选官员会尽力遵守规则。

I understand that, but emotionally, did you just feel like, we did it?

我理解这一点，但从情感上来说，你是否只是觉得，我们做到了？

We had this goal, and we and we won.

我们有这个目标，我们赢了。

Did you feel like that?

你有这样的感觉吗？

Oh my gosh.

天哪。

Not only did I think we won, I was like, I could retire.

我不仅认为我们赢了，而且我想，我可以退休了。

It was like, oh my goodness, there's like light at the end of the tunnel.

就像，天哪，隧道尽头有光。

And I feel sad for that girl, you know, that person.

我为那个女孩，你知道，那个人感到难过。

[LAUGHS] Yes, 2015 Catherine Turcer who believed that we had set the stage for truly meaningful elections.

[笑]是的，2015 年凯瑟琳·特瑟 (Catherine Turcer) 相信我们已经为真正有意义的选举奠定了基础。

Coming up-- what goes wrong when Ohio tries out its new constitutional amendment and draws its very first maps under the rules?

接下来——当俄亥俄州尝试新的宪法修正案并根据规则绘制第一批地图时，出了什么问题？

That's in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.

稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。

It's This American Life.

这就是美国生活。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Today's program-- Mapmaker, Mapmaker, Make Me a Map, the story of why Ohio is going to the polls this week with election maps the state's own Supreme Court says violate the state's constitution.

今天的节目——制图者，制图者，给我制作一张地图，讲述了为什么俄亥俄州本周将带着该州最高法院认为违反该州宪法的选举地图前往投票站。

We have arrived at Act Two of our show.

我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。

Act Two-- Sunrise, Sunset slash Is This the Little Constitutional Amendment I Carried?

第二幕——日出日落斜线 这是我携带的小小的宪法修正案吗？

OK, so in 2021, Ohioans sat down to make the electoral maps for the election that we're holding this week, using their new constitutional amendment for the very first time, taking it out for a spin.

好的，所以在 2021 年，俄亥俄州人坐下来为我们本周举行的选举绘制选举地图，首次使用他们的新宪法修正案，并进行了尝试。

And as you already know, what unfolded was kind of a disaster.

正如你所知，所发生的事情是一场灾难。

They had to make three maps in all.

他们总共必须制作三张地图。

One of those was defining congressional districts for the US House of Representatives, then two maps for the Ohio State House, one for the Ohio Senate, one for the Ohio House of Representatives.

其中之一是为美国众议院定义国会选区，然后为俄亥俄州众议院定义两张地图，一张为俄亥俄州参议院，一张为俄亥俄州众议院。

OK, so three maps, similar things happen with all three.

好的，所以三张地图，这三张地图都发生了类似的情况。

And I'm going to tell you the story of what happened with the map for the Ohio House of Representatives because it was the most bitterly divisive.

我将告诉你们俄亥俄州众议院地图所发生的故事，因为它是最严重的分歧。

And also, there are things in gerrymandering that usually happen all the time around the country behind closed doors that here play out in public.

而且，在全国范围内经常发生的不公正选区的事情，现在却在公开场合上演。

And it took some pretty shocking turns along the way.

一路上发生了一些相当令人震惊的转折。

And I call this meeting to order.

我决定召开这次会议。

We'll now proceed to the presentation of a member appointments to the Ohio redistricting commission.

我们现在将向俄亥俄州选区重划委员会介绍成员任命。

The new constitutional amendment created a redistricting commission with seven members to draw the state's electoral maps.

新宪法修正案设立了一个由七名成员组成的选区重新划分委员会，负责绘制该州的选举地图。

This was their first meeting in August of last year.

这是他们去年八月的第一次见面。

Seven members mandated by the amendment were some of the most powerful people in the state-- the governor, secretary of state, and auditor, and then from the state legislature, two Republican lawmakers and two Democrats.

修正案授权的七名成员是该州最有权势的人——州长、国务卿和审计员，然后是来自州立法机构的两名共和党议员和两名民主党议员。

Matt Huffman, the Republican who was behind the amendment's creation, he was on the committee, still calling the shots.

马特·霍夫曼（Matt Huffman）是共和党人，他是该修正案的制定者，他是委员会成员，仍然发号施令。

He was also by this time a state senator and president of the Ohio Senate.

此时他还担任州参议员和俄亥俄州参议院议长。

Vernon Sykes was the leading Democrat on the commission and its co-chair.

弗农·赛克斯是该委员会的主要民主党人兼联合主席。

He'd been the Democratic party's main negotiator, Huffman's counterpart when they were drafting the constitutional amendment.

他是民主党的主要谈判代表，也是霍夫曼起草宪法修正案时的对手。

Sykes is such a hardcore anti-gerrymandering guy that in his first term in office back in 1983, he went to the Democrats, who at that point were running things-- they were the majority.

赛克斯是一位坚定的反对选区划分不公的人，以至于在 1983 年他的第一个任期内，他选择了民主党，当时他们是多数派。

He went to the leaders of his own party and told them it was unfair the way that they were drawing the maps.

他去找自己政党的领导人，告诉他们绘制地图的方式是不公平的。

They should change.

他们应该改变。

It was a difficult row to hoe and really couldn't convince them to do that.

锄地是一件很难的事，而且真的无法说服他们这样做。

Like, did they say, like, are you crazy?

就像，他们有没有说，比如，你疯了吗？

Yeah, that was basically the terminology that was used.

是的，这基本上就是使用的术语。

They thought I was naive and young and inexperienced and-- and I would get over it.

他们认为我很天真、年轻、缺乏经验——但我会克服它的。

Obviously, he did not get over it, and now here he sat, four decades later.

显然，他并没有克服它，现在他坐在这里，四十年后。

In all, it was five Republicans on the committee, two Democrats.

委员会总共有五名共和党人，两名民主党人。

Mapmaking got a late start in Ohio because the new census data was late.

俄亥俄州的地图制作起步较晚，因为新的人口普查数据发布较晚。

But then, finally, on September 9 of last year--

但最终，在去年 9 月 9 日——

I would-- pursuant to Rule 10 of the commission, I would like to present to the commission a proposed General Assembly district plan for all 99 seats of the Ohio House of Representatives and all 33 seats of the Ohio Senate.

根据委员会第 10 条，我想向委员会提交一份针对俄亥俄州众议院所有 99 个席位和俄亥俄州参议院所有 33 个席位的拟议大会选区计划。

That's Matt Huffman proposing maps that have been cooked up by the Republicans on their own.

这是马特·霍夫曼提出的地图，是共和党人自己制作的。

The new constitutional amendment actually calls for everybody on the commission to draft this map together, but Republicans said that the census data came in too late for that-- no time to collaborate.

新的宪法修正案实际上要求委员会中的每个人一起起草这张地图，但共和党人表示，人口普查数据来得太晚了——没有时间合作。

Democrats and the government types said that was nonsense.

民主党人和政府人士表示这是无稽之谈。

So this first map was like a cannon shot launching the war that followed.

所以这第一张地图就像一发炮弹，引发了接下来的战争。

Thank you.

谢谢。

At this time, we are ready for the presentation.

此时，我们已经准备好进行演示了。

The single most important thing about the map that anybody would want to know-- did it favor one party more than another?

任何人都想知道这张地图上最重要的一件事——它是否比另一方更利于一方？

The Republicans didn't give any information about that at all in this first hearing.

共和党人在第一次听证会上根本没有提供任何相关信息。

And mind you, they were doing all this at the very last minute.

请注意，他们是在最后一刻才做这一切的。

There were only six days before the constitution said they had to approve some map.

距离宪法规定他们必须批准一些地图只有六天的时间。

Given the way the constitution was written, like we said earlier, 54% of Ohioans had been voting Republican over the previous decade, so most people figured that 54% of the districts should have Republican majorities.

鉴于宪法的制定方式，正如我们之前所说，54% 的俄亥俄州人在过去十年中一直投票给共和党，因此大多数人认为 54% 的选区应该由共和党占多数。

When the numbers were finally revealed, Republicans got a lot more than that.

当这些数字最终公布时，共和党得到的远不止于此。

The map gave Republicans between 64% and 70% of all the districts.

该地图显示共和党在所有选区中所占的比例在 64% 到 70% 之间。

I asked a few people who are at these hearings to talk me through what they were like.

我请参加这些听证会的一些人向我讲述他们的感受。

Katy Shanahan was there working with a group called the National Democratic Redistricting Committee.

凯蒂·沙纳汉 (Katy Shanahan) 在那里与一个名为全国民主选区重划委员会的组织合作。

She personally had locked in on gerrymandering as her issue when she was in law school.

当她在法学院就读时，她个人就将选区划分选区划分为自己的问题。

She wrote a thesis evaluating how different states draw their maps and which are the most fair.

她写了一篇论文，评估不同州如何绘制地图以及哪些是最公平的。

Like everybody I spoke with, she expected the Republicans to try to gerrymander, you know, like, a little.

和我交谈过的每个人一样，她预计共和党人会尝试不公正地划分选区，你知道，有点。

But this first map--

但这第一张地图——

It's sort of impressive, [LAUGHS] in a bad way, that they managed to draw maps that were even worse than the ones that we had in place the last 10 years.

令人印象深刻的是，[笑]以一种糟糕的方式，他们绘制的地图甚至比我们过去 10 年绘制的地图还要糟糕。

After having helped write and pass a constitutional reform meant to curb that exact type of gerrymandering, the audacity of their action is breathtaking, no matter how predictable.

在帮助起草并通过了一项旨在遏制这种不公正划分选区的宪法改革之后，无论多么可预测，他们的行动之大胆令人震惊。

The simple fact is that there are a lot of opinions about what that portion of the constitution means.

简单的事实是，对于宪法这一部分的含义有很多看法。

For example--

例如——

During the hearings, Senator Huffman explained the number of Republican districts this way.

在听证会上，参议员霍夫曼这样解释了共和党选区的数量。

He said that, under the constitution, the number of districts that each party gets is supposed to reflect the results in statewide elections over the previous 10 years.

他说，根据宪法，各政党获得的选区数量应该反映过去10年全州选举的结果。

And results is the word the constitution uses-- results.

结果是宪法所用的词——结果。

But Huffman says, there are different ways that you can measure election results.

但霍夫曼说，衡量选举结果的方法有多种。

Like, for instance, you can count the number of votes cast.

例如，您可以计算投票数。

If you do that, then Republicans won 54% of the votes, sure.

如果你这样做，那么共和党肯定会赢得 54% 的选票。

But he said you could also count the number of races won-- governor, lieutenant governor, senator, all that.

但他说你也可以计算赢得竞选的次数——州长、副州长、参议员等等。

If you count the number of races, if you do it that way, Republicans won 81% of the races.

如果你算一下竞选次数的话，共和党赢得了81%的竞选。

Again, Katy Shanahan.

再说一遍，凯蒂·沙纳汉。

Katy Shanahan And the explanation was, essentially, so we really could have gotten way worse maps, right?

凯蒂·沙纳汉（Katy Shanahan）的解释是，本质上，所以我们真的可以得到更糟糕的地图，对吧？

We could have drawn maps that gave us 81% of the seats, and that would have been fair.

我们本可以绘制一张地图，让我们获得 81% 的席位，这样才公平。

But we didn't do that, and isn't that so gracious of us to do that?

但我们没有那样做，我们这样做不是很仁慈吗？

And that was their explanation.

这就是他们的解释。

Yeah, what did you think of that argument?

是的，你对这个争论有什么看法？

Well, excuse my French, but it's horseshit.

好吧，请原谅我的法语，但那是胡说八道。

Election results, I mean, I guess you could read that multiple ways.

我的意思是，我想你可以通过多种方式来解读选举结果。

But to me, what that reads is, how have Ohioans voted in all of those races?

但对我来说，这意味着俄亥俄州人在所有这些竞选中是如何投票的？

If you're only counting who's won those elections, you're ignoring all of the other voters.

如果您只计算谁赢得了这些选举，那么您就会忽略所有其他选民。

So there are some of those statewide races that were decided by a couple percentage points, which means you're essentially ignoring half of the voters who showed up to vote in those elections, which is not what I think what statewide preferences of the voters of Ohio means.

因此，有些全州范围的竞选是由几个百分点决定的，这意味着你基本上忽略了在这些选举中投票的一半选民，这不是我认为俄亥俄州选民全州偏好的含义。

It doesn't mean only count who's won those races and disregard everyone else who voted.

这并不意味着只计算谁赢得了这些比赛而忽视其他所有投票的人。

I will say, the Democrats and good government types who negotiated the terms of this constitutional amendment with Matt Huffman found this interpretation of the word "results" to be so annoying.

我想说的是，与马特·霍夫曼就宪法修正案条款进行谈判的民主党人和优秀政府人士发现对“结果”一词的这种解释非常烦人。

Like, they were there when this was written.

就像，写这篇文章时他们就在那里。

Again, Catherine Turcer.

又是凯瑟琳·图瑟。

And the notion that Matt Huffman didn't understand what representational fairness is is absolutely ludicrous.

认为马特·霍夫曼不明白什么是代表性公平的想法绝对是可笑的。

There were long conversations about it for years, really.

确实，多年来人们一直在谈论这个问题。

Richard Gunther said the same thing.

理查德·冈瑟也说过同样的话。

Remember, he was one of the five negotiators who hammered out the terms of the amendment.

请记住，他是敲定修正案条款的五名谈判代表之一。

He says, whenever they talked about election results, it was always about the number of votes, never about the number of races won.

他说，每当他们谈论选举结果时，总是谈论选票数量，而不是赢得的比赛数量。

No, that was never mentioned.

不，从来没有提到过这一点。

And in fact, I've been a professional political scientist for five decades, and I've never seen election data used in that bizarre fashion.

事实上，我作为一名专业政治科学家已经有五年了，我从未见过选举数据以如此奇怪的方式被使用。

Matt Huffman totally sticks by his guns in this one.

马特·霍夫曼在这部电影中完全坚持自己的立场。

He told me the word in the constitution is "results." This notion that it means counting votes and not offices won--

他告诉我宪法中的词是“结果”。这种观念意味着计数选票而不是赢得职位——

Well, why does the results mean that?

那么，为什么结果会是这样呢？

Well, because I want it to?

嗯，因为我想要它？

Because it's better for me?

因为这对我更好？

Well, those aren't really reasons.

嗯，这些都不是真正的原因。

Well, you know--

嗯，你知道——

But they're saying-- they're saying, just, that's what everybody talked about back then.

但他们说——他们说，这就是当时每个人都在谈论的事情。

Nobody talked about counting the number of offices.

没有人谈论计算办公室的数量。

Yeah, then it should be in the constitution.

是的，那么它应该写入宪法。

This is like the agreement, right?

这就像协议一样吧？

We enter into a settlement agreement to settle our lawsuit, and later on, you say, well, on the side, you said you were paying court costs.

我们签订和解协议来解决我们的诉讼，后来，你说，好吧，你说你正在支付法庭费用。

I never said that.

我从来没有这么说过。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Matt Huffman Or on the side, I was supposed to get an extra $10,000.

马特·霍夫曼（Matt Huffman）或者说，我应该得到额外的 10,000 美元。

Remember, you mentioned it to me just before we signed the document?

还记得吗，你在我们签署文件之前就向我提到过这一点？

No. And so that's why we have the constitution and the votes--

不，这就是为什么我们有宪法和选票——

And you're saying the language-- the language-- the language doesn't specify.

你说的是语言——语言——语言没有指定。

So it could be either one.

所以可能是其中之一。

Right.

正确的。

Frank LaRose Yeah, Mr. President, so I've been trying to understand, as we've been talking to members of your staff and you yourself, how you believe that your--

弗兰克·拉罗斯：是的，总统先生，所以当我们与您的工作人员和您本人交谈时，我一直在努力了解您如何相信您的——

In hearings over this, even the other Republicans on the redistricting commission seem to have trouble with Matt Huffman's rationale for this map.

在就此举行的听证会上，即使是选区重划委员会的其他共和党人似乎也对马特·霍夫曼绘制这张地图的理由感到困惑。

This is Ohio Secretary of State Frank LaRose, and as he is saying these words, the committee is in the final hour-- like, literally, it's the final hour before the constitutional deadline for approving a map.

我是俄亥俄州国务卿弗兰克·拉罗斯，当他说这些话时，委员会正处于最后一个小时——从字面上看，这是宪法批准地图的最后期限之前的最后一个小时。

It's minutes before midnight on September 15.

现在是 9 月 15 日午夜前几分钟。

LaRose is complaining that Huffman and his staff didn't even share information with other Republicans on the committee, never gave any explanation until then for why there were so many more Republican districts than the constitution seemed to allow.

拉罗斯抱怨霍夫曼和他的工作人员甚至没有与委员会中的其他共和党人分享信息，直到那时才给出任何解释为什么共和党选区的数量比宪法允许的要多得多。

I, for one, have been asking for the rationale for days.

就我而言，几天来一直在询问理由。

Is there a reason why that wasn't shared with us until now?

有什么原因直到现在才与我们分享吗？

LaRose texted his chief of staff, quote, "This rationale is asinine.

拉罗斯给他的幕僚长发短信说：“这个理由很愚蠢。

I should vote no." This came out in depositions a month later.

我应该投反对票。”一个月后，这一点在证词中公布。

Further discussion on the motion.

进一步讨论该动议。

Governor DeWine?

州长德温？

Ohio's Republican Governor Mike DeWine also seemed concerned about how far Huffman had gone.

俄亥俄州共和党州长迈克·德温似乎也对霍夫曼的做法感到担忧。

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

谢谢主席先生。

I am deeply disappointed where we are tonight.

我对我们今晚的处境深感失望。

I know-- I know that this committee could have produced a more clearly constitutional bill, but that's not the bill that we have in front of us.

我知道——我知道这个委员会本可以制定一项更明确的宪法法案，但这不是我们面前的法案。

And I'm sorry we did not do that.

很抱歉我们没有这样做。

The governor and secretary of state both turned down a request for interviews.

州长和国务卿都拒绝了采访请求。

The commission didn't finally vote till after midnight, so they missed that deadline set by the constitution.

该委员会直到午夜之后才最终投票，因此他们错过了宪法规定的最后期限。

Co-Chair Senator Sykes.

联合主席赛克斯参议员。

Vernon Sykes No.

弗农·赛克斯 No.

Governor DeWine?

州长德温？

Ira Glass Even Republicans who were critical of the maps voted for them.

艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 甚至对这些地图持批评态度的共和党人也投票支持了这些地图。

They passed on party lines-- 5 to 2.

他们以5比2的比例通过了党派路线。

This is challenged in court, and the Ohio Supreme Court did not buy Huffman's explanation at all about the definition of the word "results." They ruled the map unconstitutional-- back to the drawing board.

这在法庭上受到质疑，俄亥俄州最高法院根本不相信霍夫曼对“结果”一词定义的解释。他们裁定该地图违宪——回到绘图板。

Republicans created a second set of maps, again, on their own, again, with no input from the Democrats on the committee.

共和党人再次自行制作了第二套地图，委员会中的民主党人没有提供任何意见。

This time, they tried something different.

这一次，他们尝试了一些不同的东西。

They gave the Democrats a few more districts that leaned their way but not as many as the Supreme Court called for.

他们给了民主党更多一些支持他们的选区，但没有最高法院要求的那么多。

But there was a new problem, which the court pointed out when they rejected this set of maps.

但法院在拒绝这套地图时指出了一个新问题。

A third of the Democratic seats were just barely Democratic.

三分之一的民主党席位几乎都是民主党人。

Like, really, these seats were toss-ups, where Democrats had just a tiny fraction more voters than Republicans, like less than half of 1% more voters in most of the cases.

事实上，这些席位是难以捉摸的，民主党的选民只比共和党多一点点，比如在大多数情况下，多出 1% 的选民不到一半。

Again, David Pepper used to chair the Democratic Party in the state.

大卫·佩珀（David Pepper）再次担任该州民主党主席。

What the Supreme Court said correctly was, the only seats that were at risk of being lost were Democratic seats.

最高法院所说的正确的是，唯一有可能失去的席位是民主党席位。

That is not a fair map.

那不是一张公平的地图。

You need to have in your side as many competitive seats as Democrats do.

你需要像民主党一样拥有尽可能多的有竞争力的席位。

The Supreme Court said no to the second map because it violated the part of the constitution that says a map can't, quote, "favor or disfavor one party over another." The court gave the commission 10 days to try again.

最高法院对第二张地图表示不同意，因为它违反了宪法的一部分，即地图不能“偏向或不偏向一方”。法院给了委员会 10 天的时间重试。

And the commission didn't meet until the 10th day, the very last day, February 17, 2022.

委员会直到第 10 天，即最后一天，即 2022 年 2 月 17 日才召开会议。

And this time--

而这一次——

Again, Katy Shanahan.

再说一遍，凯蒂·沙纳汉。

Katy Shanahan The Republicans never offered any map.

凯蒂·沙纳汉（Katy Shanahan）共和党从未提供任何地图。

They just didn't do it.

他们只是没有这么做。

And they filed with the court, saying, yeah, sorry, we just reached an impasse.

他们向法院提起诉讼，说，是的，抱歉，我们刚刚陷入了僵局。

We don't know-- we don't know how to get around it, you know?

我们不知道——我们不知道如何解决它，你知道吗？

We don't know how to make you all happy on the court.

我们不知道如何让你们在场上都开心。

The Democrats don't want to agree to any of our maps.

民主党不想同意我们的任何地图。

So I guess we're just not going to have a map.

所以我想我们不会有地图。

The mapmakers, the majority mapmakers, are telling us that they don't believe that we can constitutionally do what the court majority has asked us to do.

地图制作者，即大多数地图制作者，告诉我们，他们不相信我们可以按照宪法去做法院多数派要求我们做的事情。

This is Republican Secretary of State Frank LaRose at that February hearing.

我是共和党国务卿弗兰克·拉罗斯 (Frank LaRose) 在二月份的听证会上。

This is one of those classic cases of what we want versus what we can accomplish.

这是我们想要什么与我们能够实现什么的经典案例之一。

Those who are looking to cast blame and score political points will perhaps represent that the situation we're in is simply because of a lack of will.

那些想要指责并获得政治分数的人可能会表示，我们所处的局面仅仅是因为缺乏意愿。

I don't believe that that's the case.

我不相信是这样的。

Just to be clear about this, the Republicans are right when they say that it's not so easy to make a map for Ohio that gives Democrats nearly half the districts like the constitution mandates.

需要明确的是，共和党人说，为俄亥俄州绘制一张地图并不那么容易，因为它为民主党提供了宪法规定的近一半选区，这是正确的。

Because like in many states, the Democrats in Ohio are mostly bunched up in the big cities.

因为和许多州一样，俄亥俄州的民主党人大多聚集在大城市。

In lots of counties, there just aren't so many of them.

在很多县，这样的人并不多。

So to give them enough districts without breaking any of the other rules, like splitting up counties and townships, it's tricky.

因此，要给他们足够的地区，而又不违反任何其他规则，比如划分县和乡镇，这是很棘手的。

Democrats, however, and nonpartisan groups like the League of Women Voters say it isn't that hard a problem.

然而，民主党人和女性选民联盟等无党派团体表示，这并不是一个很难的问题。

That same day, February 17, the Democrats introduced a map that they made that gave them the number of districts that the Supreme Court said would be constitutionally correct.

同一天，即 2 月 17 日，民主党推出了一张他们制作的地图，其中列出了最高法院认为符合宪法的选区数量。

All other requirements of the constitution are met.

宪法的所有其他要求均得到满足。

No one has shown constitutional violations in these maps, so I urge a yes vote for adoption of the maps that have been proposed in this motion.

没有人在这些地图中显示出违反宪法的行为，因此我敦促投赞成票，通过这项动议中提出的地图。

The Republicans disagreed about the constitutionality and spent a lot of the hearing trying to shoot holes in the map.

共和党人对合宪性持有不同意见，并在听证会上花了很多时间试图在地图上找出漏洞。

Their biggest beef-- Matt Huffman said that this map made so many districts of incumbent Republicans vanish, so many that it disfavored one party in a way that the constitution prohibits.

他们最大的不满是——马特·霍夫曼（Matt Huffman）说，这张地图让许多现任共和党人的选区消失了，数量如此之多，以至于以宪法所禁止的方式对一个政党不利。

Democrats replied that so many Republican districts were vanishing because they'd been unfairly gerrymandered in the first place.

民主党人回答说，如此多的共和党选区正在消失，因为它们从一开始就受到了不公平的不公正划分。

At the end of the hearing, the Republicans voted down the Democrats' map, like they did with every Democratic map offered during all these hearings, and decided to notify the state Supreme Court that no map could possibly be drawn to comply with the constitution.

在听证会结束时，共和党人投票否决了民主党的地图，就像他们对所有这些听证会期间提供的每一张民主党地图所做的那样，并决定通知州最高法院，不可能绘制符合宪法的地图。

And they just sort of crossed their hands and went with the impasse.

他们只是交叉双手，进入了僵局。

Which was fairly astounding because you know, a court order is nothing to scoff off.

这相当令人震惊，因为你知道，法庭命令是不容小觑的。

It's the highest court in our state demanding that you redraw a map.

我们州最高法院要求你重新绘制地图。

And the commissioners just said-- yeah, no, we're not gonna do that.

委员们只是说——是的，不，我们不会那样做。

And had no qualms about not only doing that, but then filing paperwork with the court to explain-- yeah, we're just not gonna follow your court order.

并且不仅毫不犹豫地这样做，而且还向法院提交文件进行解释——是的，我们只是不会遵守您的法院命令。

And of the five Republican commissioners, four of them are barred attorneys who swear an oath to uphold the constitution of the United States and of Ohio, and to have respect and deference to courts who have jurisdiction over your actions, and that's how you're going to behave, you're just gonna cross your arms and say, yeah, no, I'm not gonna comply with that that court order.

在五名共和党委员中，其中四名是被禁止的律师，他们宣誓维护美国和俄亥俄州的宪法，并尊重和服从对你的行为有管辖权的法院，这就是你的行为方式，你只需交叉双臂说，是的，不，我不会遵守该法院命令。

It's appalling.

太可怕了。

Seven days later, the Ohio Supreme Court issued an order for the commissioners to appear in person and explain why they should not be held in contempt for not turning in a map as ordered.

七天后，俄亥俄州最高法院发布命令，要求委员们亲自出庭，并解释为什么他们不应因未按命令上交地图而被视为藐视法庭。

Again, Katy Shanahan.

再说一遍，凯蒂·沙纳汉。

And what's so wild about the timing of that-- so that order came out on February 24.

该命令于 2 月 24 日发布。

And later that same day, Republican commissioners managed to propose a new map and pass it almost along party lines.

当天晚些时候，共和党委员们设法提出了一份新地图，并几乎沿着党派路线通过了它。

Hmm.

唔。

Katy Shanahan Which is fascinating, because they had just argued in court why they couldn't possibly come up with a new map.

凯蒂·沙纳汉（Katy Shanahan）这很有趣，因为他们刚刚在法庭上争论为什么他们不可能拿出一张新地图。

And yet, fewer than 24 hours after the court said, OK, well, then you should come into court and explain why you didn't-- why you shouldn't be held in contempt, they managed to figure out how to draw a new one.

然而，在法庭说“好吧，好吧，那么你应该出庭解释为什么你没有——为什么你不应该被蔑视”之后不到 24 小时，他们就设法找到了如何画一张新的。

No, it was not very different.

不，差别不大。

It was largely the same.

基本上是一样的。

They made the seat count perhaps a little more palatable, but essentially, one of the driving--

他们让座位数也许更容易接受，但本质上，驾驶之一——

In fact, the new map finally got to a 54-46 split between Republican and Democratic leaning districts like the court wanted.

事实上，新地图最终如法院所希望的那样，共和党和民主党倾向的选区以 54 比 46 的比例分裂。

But just like the previous Republican map, lots of the Democratic seats-- in fact, nearly half of them, 19 seats, were just barely Democratic.

但就像之前的共和党地图一样，很多民主党席位——事实上，其中近一半，即 19 个席位，几乎都是民主党人。

They were toss-ups.

他们是举棋不定。

None of the Republican seats were toss-ups.

共和党的席位没有一个是难以捉摸的。

They were all solid red.

它们都是纯红色的。

So the Supreme Court ordered the commission to go back and try it one more time.

因此最高法院命令该委员会回去再试一次。

This is now the fourth time.

现在已经是第四次了。

And this time, the court suggested a complete revamp, like a total rethinking of how they were going about this.

这一次，法院建议进行彻底的改革，就像彻底重新思考他们将如何处理这件事。

The court pointed out that one big problem with all these maps was that the Democrats and Republicans didn't draft them together as a group, like the constitution tells them to.

法院指出，所有这些地图的一个大问题是民主党和共和党并没有像宪法要求的那样作为一个整体一起起草它们。

So the court said, try drafting a map together from scratch in public.

所以法庭说，试着当众从头开始一起起草一张地图。

Hire an independent mapmaker to help, somebody who will answer to all the commission members, not just to the Republicans.

聘请一位独立的制图师来提供帮助，他要向所有委员会成员负责，而不仅仅是共和党人。

And incredibly, that's what happens next.

令人难以置信的是，这就是接下来发生的事情。

At this time, we'll call up the mapmakers.

这个时候，我们就会召集地图制作者。

They hire two independent mapmakers, one picked by the Democrats and one picked by the Republicans.

他们聘请了两名独立制图师，一名由民主党挑选，另一名由共和党挑选。

We've been waiting a long time to have this opportunity to actually talk with you.

我们等待这个机会已经很久了，希望能有机会与您进行真正的交谈。

Could you just do a brief introduction, please?

请您简单介绍一下好吗？

This is the one time in all the hearing footage that I've watched that I've seen co-chair Vernon Sykes allow a faint smile to cross his face.

在我看过的所有听证会录像中，这是我看到联合主席弗农·赛克斯 (Vernon Sykes) 脸上露出淡淡微笑的一次。

And the commission puts the two to work, in a room in the capitol with cameras and microphones, broadcasting onto the internet with separate feeds that show what was on their computer screens.

该委员会让两人在国会大厦的一个房间里工作，里面有摄像头和麦克风，通过单独的源在互联网上广播，显示他们电脑屏幕上的内容。

Senator Sykes was proud of it.

赛克斯参议员为此感到自豪。

It was totally an open process, live streamed.

这完全是一个开放的过程，现场直播。

24/7, around the clock, this room was broadcast.

24/7，全天候，这个房间在直播。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Vernon Sykes We could hear conversations.

弗农·赛克斯 我们可以听到谈话声。

This was unheard of in any state anywhere.

这在任何一个州都是闻所未闻的。

And so do you feel like, OK, it's been a bumpy road, but finally there's real hope that this will work out the way that you had wanted from the beginning?

那么你是否觉得，好吧，这是一条坎坷的道路，但最终确实有希望这会按照你从一开始就想要的方式发展？

Absolutely, absolutely.

绝对，绝对。

Allison Russo I mean, it was Ohio's version of reality television.

艾莉森·罗素 我的意思是，这是俄亥俄州版本的真人秀节目。

You know, for all the data and map nerds and redistricting nerds--

你知道，对于所有数据和地图书呆子以及重新划分分区的书呆子来说——

This is the other Democrat on the redistricting commission, Allison Russo, the Democratic leader in the Ohio House of Representatives.

这是选区重划委员会的另一位民主党人，俄亥俄州众议院民主党领袖艾莉森·鲁索(Allison Russo)。

Russo's first entrance into politics in Ohio, years before this, was collecting signatures for redistricting reform at her local public library.

几年前，拉索在俄亥俄州首次涉足政坛，是在当地公共图书馆收集重新划分选区改革的签名。

So she especially loved this new path they were on.

所以她特别喜欢他们所走的这条新道路。

She watched the live stream.

她观看了直播。

Everybody did.

每个人都这么做了。

We all did.

我们都这么做了。

I mean, one of the more entertaining aspects was really just the personalities of the two mapmakers and how they interacted with each other.

我的意思是，更有趣的方面之一实际上就是两位地图制作者的个性以及他们如何彼此互动。

And there were moments of tension.

也有紧张的时刻。

So-- so let's not-- Mapmaker Michael There's no discussion.

所以——所以我们不要—— 制图者迈克尔 没有讨论。

So let's not-- Mapmaker Michael There's no discussion.

所以我们不要—— 制图者迈克尔 没有讨论。

But it-- but when it came to Green--

但它——但是当谈到格林时——

You don't get to say there's no discussion and then keep discussing.

你不能说没有讨论然后继续讨论。

There were also long stretches where they got along.

他们也有很长一段相处的时间。

They drank lots of Coke, ate on camera.

他们喝了很多可乐，在镜头前吃东西。

Michael the Democrat was somebody who seemed utterly uninterested in small talk.

民主党人迈克尔似乎对闲聊完全不感兴趣。

Doug the Republican was friendly, chatty.

共和党人道格很友善、健谈。

Here, he's looking at his phone.

在这里，他正在看手机。

[LAUGHS] My daughter-- she texted me saying, "The guinea pigs have been enjoying you guys." [LAUGHS]

[笑]我的女儿——她给我发短信说，“豚鼠们很享受你们。” [笑]

Michael, all business, says nothing.

迈克尔一言不发。

Typical.

典型的。

Doug turns to the camera, does a quick wave and a smile, gets back to work.

道格转向镜头，快速挥手并微笑，然后继续工作。

In just four long days, these two people, who knew nothing about Ohio's districts, got closer and closer to finishing a map that looked like it could meet all the constitutional guidelines.

在短短的四天时间里，这两个人对俄亥俄州的选区一无所知，却越来越接近完成一张看起来可以满足所有宪法指导方针的地图。

Again, Allison Russo.

再说一遍，艾莉森·罗素。

Yes, yes.

是的，是的。

I felt hopeful, and at the moment that it became clear that they were going to come to some sort of map is when the Republicans, specifically the two legislative leaders, seemed to go on overdrive and throwing up more and more obstacles and making it more difficult.

我感到充满希望，当共和党人，特别是两位立法领导人，似乎继续超速前进并设置越来越多的障碍并使事情变得更加困难时，他们显然会制定某种地图。

For example, asking the mapmakers to take time to add the addresses of all the incumbent office holders to the statewide district maps they were making.

例如，要求地图制作者花时间将所有现任公职人员的地址添加到他们正在制作的全州地区地图中。

At a few points, the mapmakers would ask the Republican lawmakers for input on certain decisions, and they wouldn't give answers.

在某些时候，地图制作者会要求共和党议员就某些决定提供意见，但他们不会给出答案。

I can't vote yes on something when I don't know what the result of it is.

当我不知道某件事的结果是什么时，我无法对它投赞成票。

Yeah, I have really the same position.

是的，我确实有同样的立场。

I don't think we know enough, not just on this one, frankly, but on the other ones as well.

坦率地说，我认为我们了解得还不够，不仅在这一点上，而且在其他方​​面也是如此。

So--

所以——

Republicans denied that these were delaying tactics.

共和党人否认这些是拖延战术。

They say it was genuinely difficult to come up with a map that would give Democrats more seats without violating other mapmaking rules in the constitution, so finally after four long days and nights, they're at March 28 of this year, the deadline set by the court to finish the map.

他们表示，要在不违反宪法中其他制图规则的情况下拿出一张能够为民主党提供更多席位的地图确实很难，所以经过四个漫长的日日夜夜，他们终于在今年 3 月 28 日，即法院设定的完成地图的最后期限。

And on that day, March 28th, the two sides end up in the most dramatic battle they have in these hearings.

3 月 28 日这一天，双方在听证会上陷入了最戏剧性的争斗。

It starts in the late afternoon, when Senator Huffman addresses the committee.

会议从下午晚些时候开始，参议员霍夫曼在委员会上发表讲话。

I did want to talk a little bit about our timing.

我确实想谈谈我们的时间安排。

So the court order requires that we have this final product to the secretary of STATE today, March 28.

因此，法院命令要求我们于今天（3 月 28 日）将最终结果提交给国务卿。

And he explains that to do that by midnight, to get all the files prepared, et cetera, et cetera, they're going to need to vote by 10:30 that night.

他解释说，要在午夜之前完成这项工作，准备好所有文件等等，他们需要在当晚 10:30 之前进行投票。

And obviously, the court is serious about the deadline.

显然，法院对截止日期非常重视。

I just wanted to comment, so as of 5:00, we do not have a senate map to consider.

我只是想发表评论，所以截至 5:00，我们没有参议院地图可供考虑。

And you're nodding, Mr Johnson, so I want to make sure I got that right.

约翰逊先生，你在点头，所以我想确保我做对了。

As of 5:00, we cannot confirm that we have a constitutional house map, with maybe five hours or so to go in our process.

截至 5:00，我们无法确认我们是否拥有宪法房屋地图，我们的处理过程可能还需要五个小时左右的时间。

So given that, I also want to say, obviously, the court is very, very serious about getting these maps to them on time, and I'm concerned, based on the description of the process that that's going to happen.

因此，鉴于此，我还想说，显然，法院非常非常认真地希望按时向他们提供这些地图，并且根据对即将发生的过程的描述，我感到担忧。

So I think we need a failsafe, and-- if we're not going to land the plane, as it's said, it would be nice to have a parachute.

所以我认为我们需要一个故障保护装置，而且——如果我们不打算让飞机着陆，正如所说的那样，最好有一个降落伞。

So Huffman proposes going back to the old map, the last unconstitutional map that the Supreme Court had rejected.

因此霍夫曼建议回到旧地图，这是最高法院驳回的最后一张违宪地图。

His idea is the independent mapmakers try to pretty up the old map to get closer to what the Supreme Court wanted.

他的想法是独立地图制作者尝试美化旧地图，以更接近最高法院的要求。

Objection.

异议。

Ira Glass The two Democrats on the committee, Vernon Sykes and Allison Russo, respond first.

艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 委员会中的两位民主党人弗农·赛克斯 (Vernon Sykes) 和艾莉森·鲁索 (Allison Russo) 首先做出回应。

Sykes, I should say, he's kind of an old school politician who usually goes out of his way to avoid saying anything bad about any of his opponents, but even he can't stop himself.

赛克斯，我应该说，他是一位老派政客，通常会竭尽全力避免说任何对手的坏话，但即使他也无法阻止自己。

That is ridiculous.

这太荒谬了。

All the time, money, and resources we've put into coming up with a constitutional map that just need edits that we can make in this time period.

我们投入了所有的时间、金钱和资源来绘制宪法地图，只需要在这段时间内进行编辑即可。

To distract us, the staff and the independent map draw, to divert to some other tasks, is ridiculous.

为了分散我们的注意力，工作人员又独立绘制地图，转移到一些其他任务上，这是可笑的。

Thank you, Mr Co-Chair.

谢谢联合主席先生。

I strongly object to this.

对此我表示强烈反对。

This is so disingenuous of members of this commission to even suggest that this would be the process that we would use moving forward.

该委员会的成员甚至暗示这将是我们今后将使用的流程，这是非常不诚实的。

The court has ordered us to create a map as a commission starting from scratch, and that is what we have done.

法院命令我们作为委托从头开始制作地图，这就是我们所做的。

To totally undercut that at this point, number one, is a slap in the face to Ohio voters and completely disregarding the court order.

在这一点上，第一，完全削弱这一点，就是对俄亥俄州选民的一记耳光，完全无视法院命令。

And I will tell you that we can work as long as we need to.

我会告诉你，只要我们需要，我们就可以工作。

The court would much rather us work and finish this job than to again submit another unconstitutional map that is not drawn by the entire commission and/or submit nothing.

法院更希望我们努力并完成这项工作，而不是再次提交另一张并非由整个委员会绘制的违宪地图和/或不提交任何内容。

If we even have to go past midnight, I bet the court will be OK if we are a few hours late as long as we get this job done.

如果我们甚至必须超过午夜，我敢打赌，只要我们完成这项工作，即使我们迟到几个小时，法院也不会介意。

Otherwise, we will be in contempt again or possibly held in contempt of not following the court's order.

否则，我们将再次被视为藐视法庭，或者可能因不遵守法院命令而被视为藐视法庭。

Again, Senator Matt Huffman.

再次是参议员马特·霍夫曼。

Matt Huffman Your statement that these mapmakers have come up with a constitutional map-- well, I don't know that that's true, and I'm not sure how you know it's true because we never saw that.

马特·霍夫曼（Matt Huffman）：你说这些制图者已经绘制出了宪法地图——嗯，我不知道这是真的，我也不知道你怎么知道这是真的，因为我们从未见过这一点。

These mapmakers, doing a tremendous job in a very short period of time that was dictated by the court, have not produced a Senate map and are not able to confirm that they have provided a constitutional House map.

这些地图制作者在法院指定的很短的时间内完成了巨大的工作，但尚未制作出参议院地图，也无法确认他们是否提供了符合宪法的众议院地图。

And what I'm simply saying is we have a deadline today.

我只是说我们今天有最后期限。

It may be that Leader Russo knows what the Supreme Court is thinking, but the order says today is the day.

也许罗索领袖知道最高法院的想法，但命令说今天就是这一天。

In fact, the Supreme Court specifically said in the order, quote, "No requests or stipulations for extension of time shall be filed."

事实上，最高法院在命令中明确表示，“不得提出延长时间的请求或规定”。

And that we have to do it by today.

我们必须在今天之前做到这一点。

So that, I mean, that's simply what the order is.

所以，我的意思是，这就是命令。

If somehow, some way, the mapmaker is able to produce a constitutional map that four members of the commission will support, and that is all done by 10:30, then maybe.

如果地图制作者能够以某种方式制作出一份委员会四名成员支持的宪法地图，并且这一切都在 10:30 之前完成，那么也许吧。

But it doesn't appear that that's going to happen.

但这种情况似乎不会发生。

So we have to have something that we can provide to the court today, which is what we're ordered to do.

因此，我们今天必须向法庭提供一些东西，这就是我们被命令要做的事情。

It seems to be no end to the arrogance of the supermajority.

绝大多数人的傲慢似乎没有尽头。

Any other comments?

还有其他评论吗？

After that, the commission votes along party lines.

之后，委员会按照党派路线进行投票。

They tell staff to make a new version of the old unconstitutional map, though they do allow the independent mapmakers to continue on their independent maps as well.

他们告诉工作人员制作旧的违宪地图的新版本，尽管他们也允许独立地图制作者继续制作他们的独立地图。

After all, maybe they'll finish on time.

毕竟，也许他们会按时完成。

That's very late afternoon, near 6 PM.

那是下午很晚的时候，接近下午 6 点。

Then they go into recess.

然后他们进入课间休息。

When they reconvene at 9:30 that night, just an hour before the 10:30 deadline Matt Huffman tried to set for them, one of the independent mapmakers they hired, the Republican one, Doug Johnson, gives an update.

当他们于当晚 9:30 重新开会时，距离马特·霍夫曼 (Matt Huffman) 试图为他们设定的 10:30 截止日期仅一小时，他们聘请的一位独立制图师、共和党人道格·约翰逊 (Doug Johnson) 提供了最新情况。

So co-chairs, members of the commission, as you've hopefully seen, about an hour, I guess about two hours ago now, we did finish a full house map and distributed that and have moved on to the Senate map.

因此，联合主席、委员会成员，正如你们希望看到的那样，大约一个小时，我想大约两个小时前，我们确实完成了全院地图并分发了它，然后转向了参议院地图。

We're making progress as fast as humanly possible in an effort to get this done this evening.

我们正在以最快的速度取得进展，力求今晚完成这项工作。

He says that he figures they'll be finished with the Senate map in 45 minutes or an hour.

他说他预计他们将在 45 分钟或一个小时内完成参议院地图。

Then he says that they will still need to do some refinements and tweaks to the House map.

然后他说他们仍然需要对众议院地图进行一些改进和调整。

Commission members have asked for some revisions that haven't been fixed yet.

委员会成员要求进行一些尚未修复的修改。

The House map that they made has Republican majorities in 54% of the districts, like the Supreme Court called for.

他们制作的众议院地图显示，共和党在 54% 的选区中占多数，正如最高法院所要求的那样。

And unlike the previous unconstitutional map, where all the toss-up districts, 19 of them, were Democratic-leaning, in this new map, the independent one, each party has an equal number of toss-up districts-- three Democratic, three Republican, again, like the Supreme Court called for.

与之前的违宪地图不同的是，在这张新的独立地图中，所有的待选选区（其中 19 个）都倾向于民主党，而在这张独立地图中，每个政党都有相同数量的待选选区——三个民主党，三个共和党，就像最高法院所要求的那样。

Matt Huffman and the Republicans are not having it.

马特·霍夫曼和共和党人不同意。

This is Bob Cupp, the Republican co-chair.

我是共和党联合主席鲍勃·库普。

I think-- in spite of all of the work that's been done, and I know that the consultants came in and they worked extremely hard, I think it is not feasible to expect that we're going to have that in time to be uploaded to the secretary of state's office in compliance with the court's order.

我认为，尽管已经完成了所有工作，而且我知道顾问进来了，他们工作非常努力，但我认为指望我们按照法院的命令及时将其上传到国务卿办公室是不可行的。

So I would just-- so what I'm going to do is to move, I guess, what has been referred to as the 328 Cupp Plan.

所以我想，我要做的就是改变所谓的 328 Cupp 计划。

This is the map that had been found unconstitutional with some small changes that they'd made since 6 PM.

这是一张被发现违宪的地图，他们自下午 6 点以来进行了一些小改动。

And move that the commission adopt that plan.

并提议委员会通过该计划。

Objection.

异议。

Matt Huffman Second the motion.

马特·霍夫曼附议该动议。

Mr. Co-Chair.

联合主席先生。

Vernon Sykes Leader Russo.

弗农赛克斯领袖鲁索。

Again, this is Democrat Allison Russo.

再说一遍，这是民主党人艾莉森·拉索。

She's been given a handout with information about this newly revised Republican map.

她收到了一份讲义，其中包含有关这张新修订的共和党地图的信息。

Thank you, Mr. Co-Chair.

谢谢联合主席先生。

I would just like to say that this process is and this motion and this map that's been put before us is a complete farce.

我只想说，这个过程、这个议案、摆在我们面前的这张地图，完全是一场闹剧。

I literally have been handed spreadsheets that have population deviations on them, nothing about partisan lean, nothing about symmetry.

我确实收到了一些电子表格，上面有人口偏差，没有任何关于党派倾向的内容，也没有关于对称性的内容。

This is useless information.

这是无用的信息。

Bob Cupp tells her that it's a 54 to 46 map, like it had been before.

Bob Cupp 告诉她这是一张 54 比 46 的地图，就像以前一样。

But now, instead of 19 Democratic tossup districts, there were 17.

但现在，民主党争夺的选区不再是 19 个，而是 17 个。

Republicans still have no toss-up districts.

共和党仍然没有难以抉择的选区。

And your assessment is that this addresses the symmetry concerns by the Supreme Court?

您的评估是，这解决了最高法院对对称性的担忧？

Symmetry concerns-- that each party has a similar number of tossup districts.

对称性涉及各方都有相似数量的折腾选区。

This moves closer to it, and it is the best that can be done in the time that was available under the court's requirement to adopt the plan by March the 28th.

这已经越来越接近了，而且是在法院要求在3月28日之前通过该计划的可用时间内所能完成的最好的事情。

OK, well, I took a lot of math in college.

好吧，我在大学学了很多数学。

I would disagree with that.

我不同意这一点。

She asked if they could recess so commissioners could look at the map and if they can make suggestions to change it.

她询问他们是否可以休息，以便委员们可以查看地图，以及是否可以提出修改建议。

Huffman says there's no time for either.

霍夫曼说，两者都没有时间。

Somebody points out that this was Huffman's problem with the independent mapmakers' map, that the commissioners hadn't seen it and that there wouldn't be time to make suggestions to change it.

有人指出，这是霍夫曼对独立制图师地图的问题，委员们没有看到它，也没有时间提出修改建议。

Huffman repeats, the independent map can't be done by midnight.

霍夫曼重申，独立地图不可能在午夜之前完成。

Mr. Co-Chair, I'm going to make one more motion.

共同主席先生，我将再提出一项动议。

I move that we, the commission, directs Eric Clark, who is the commission's attorney with the attorney general's office, to prepare an emergency motion asking the court for an extension of 12 hours.

我提议，我们委员会指示总检察长办公室的委员会律师埃里克·克拉克 (Eric Clark) 准备一项紧急动议，要求法院延长 12 小时。

I object.

我反对。

Mr. Co-Chair, we have a motion on the floor regarding-- I don't even know if Mr. Clark's available, but we've already, several times, read from the Supreme Court's decision, so--

联合主席先生，我们在场提出一项动议，涉及——我什至不知道克拉克先生是否有空，但我们已经多次宣读了最高法院的裁决，所以——

And with that, they vote on the Republican map.

就这样，他们在共和党地图上投票。

This is a motion to adopt a revised 328 Cupp map.

这是一项通过修订后的 328 Cupp 地图的动议。

No!

不！

No. No!

不，不！

No!

不！

No!

不！

No!

不！

No!

不！

Clerk Governor DeWine?

书记官德温？

Shame on you.

你太无耻了。

Cheaters.

骗子。

Shame on you.

你太无耻了。

Cheaters!

骗子！

Cheat!

欺骗！

Quiet down, please.

请安静。

Please, let's have order.

请让我们下订单吧。

We still have to have order here, please.

我们仍然需要在这里订购。

Jen Miller, the executive director of the League of Women Voters, they were the ones who sued to get the Republican maps overturned three times already, was there in the hearing room for this.

女性选民联盟的执行董事珍·米勒（Jen Miller）已经在听证室里，她们已经三度提起诉讼，要求推翻共和党地图。

Fascinatingly, this Ohio redistricting commission, that had blown through so many deadlines that were in the constitution and deadlines given to them by the Ohio Supreme Court, decides that deadlines matter and that they needed to get a map done, and they pass it along a simple majority.

令人着迷的是，这个俄亥俄州选区重划委员会已经超越了宪法中规定的许多最后期限和俄亥俄州最高法院给他们的最后期限，决定最后期限很重要，他们需要完成地图，并以简单多数通过了它。

You know, it was interesting because we all knew that-- [LAUGHS] we knew not to be hopeful, but we were hopeful.

你知道，这很有趣，因为我们都知道——[笑]我们知道不要抱有希望，但我们还是充满希望。

And it was just such a letdown.

这真是令人失望。

Just disappointed, kind of like when you-- you've got a crush on a guy, [LAUGHS] and you think that he's finally going to do the right thing, and then he still doesn't.

只是失望，有点像当你迷恋一个男人时，[笑]，你认为他最终会做正确的事，但他仍然没有。

And you kind of, in your gut, knew that would probably happen.

你内心深处知道这可能会发生。

But you're hopeful.

但你充满希望。

I cried, Ira.

我哭了，艾拉。

I cried.

我哭了。

You cried.

你哭了。

Jen Miller Yeah.

珍·米勒 是的。

Because I had done nothing.

因为我什么也没做。

[LAUGHS] I had spent all of my time living and breathing and dreaming maps.

[笑]我把所有的时间都花在了生活、呼吸和梦想地图上。

Allison Russo told me she feels sure the Supreme Court would have granted them an extension because, for the first time, the commission was drafting a map together, in public, exactly like the court had called for.

艾莉森·拉索告诉我，她确信最高法院会批准他们延期，因为这是委员会第一次公开共同起草地图，就像法院所要求的那样。

But you know, really, there's no need to speculate about this.

但你知道，真的没有必要对此进行猜测。

Hello?

你好？

Ira Glass Hello.

艾拉·格拉斯 你好。

Is this Justice O'Connor?

这是奥康纳大法官吗？

Hi, how are you?

你好你好吗？

Ira Glass Meet Maureen O'Connor, the Chief Justice of the Ohio Supreme Court, at least through December when she retires.

艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 会见俄亥俄州最高法院首席大法官莫琳·奥康纳 (Maureen O'Connor)，至少到她 12 月退休为止。

A lifelong Republican and the swing vote that rejected Ohio's election maps as gerrymandered seven times this past year, she knew all about the map that had been made by the independent mapmakers.

作为一名终生的共和党人，去年俄亥俄州的选举地图七次因不公正划分而被否决，她对独立地图制作者绘制的地图了如指掌。

I told her how the commission never submitted it because they were afraid they wouldn't make their deadline.

我告诉她委员会从未提交该文件，因为他们担心无法在截止日期前完成。

OK, that is-- what can I say?

好吧，那就是——我能说什么？

If that was their understanding, contacting the court at 9:00 at night, whatever, would have been, can we have 24 more hours?

如果这是他们的理解，晚上 9:00 联系法院，无论如何，我们可以再多 24 小时吗？

Absolutely.

绝对地。

That would have happened.

那会发生的。

Would we have rejected something that was given to us at 9:00 in the morning?

我们会拒绝早上 9:00 给我们的东西吗？

Absolutely not.

绝对不是。

Absolutely not.

绝对不是。

Here's how this played out.

结果是这样的。

Some Republican allies took the case to federal court where a three-judge panel with two Trump appointees told the redistricting commission, if you can't come to an agreement on a map that's constitutional, well, you just use the Republicans' unconstitutional gerrymandered map.

一些共和党盟友将此案提交给联邦法院，由两名特朗普任命的三名法官组成的小组告诉选区重划委员会，如果你们不能就符合宪法的地图达成协议，那么，你们就可以使用共和党违宪的不公正划分的地图。

After that, unsurprisingly, the commission didn't even try to come to an agreement on a map, never even held a meeting with that purpose.

此后，不出所料，该委员会甚至没有尝试就地图达成一致，甚至从未为此目的召开会议。

That's why Ohio is going to the polls this week on the gerrymandered maps.

这就是为什么俄亥俄州本周要在不公正的地图上进行投票。

I got interested in all this, wondering how lawmakers could defy their own constitution over and over.

我对这一切很感兴趣，想知道立法者如何一遍又一遍地违抗自己的宪法。

I'm talking about Huffman, the person who drove this process more than anybody else.

我说的是霍夫曼，他比任何人都更能推动这一过程。

Here's what I learned.

这是我学到的。

In his telling, Republicans were not defying the Supreme Court.

在他的讲述中，共和党人并没有藐视最高法院。

He says they tried to comply, and the court kept telling them no. He thinks the court's rulings misread the constitution.

他说他们试图遵守，但法院一直告诉他们不。他认为法院的裁决误读了宪法。

The way Matt Huffman reads this part of the constitution, which, of course, he had a big hand in writing, he believes that if you follow all the kind of mechanical rules for how to draw maps, keeping districts compact, not dividing counties too many times, that kind of thing, then you actually can ignore the part of the rules that are about proportional fairness, the rules that dictate how many districts go to each party.

马特·霍夫曼（Matt Huffman）阅读宪法这一部分的方式（当然，他在写作方面很有用处），他认为，如果你遵循所有如何绘制地图的机械规则，保持选区紧凑，不要多次划分县，诸如此类的事情，那么你实际上可以忽略规则中关于比例公平的部分，即规定每个政党有多少选区的规则。

This section about proportional voting is not required.

关于比例投票的这一部分不是必需的。

It's aspirational only.

这只是一个愿望。

Of course, the Supreme Court of Ohio sees that very differently.

当然，俄亥俄州最高法院的看法截然不同。

But there is wording in there that Huffman can point to.

但霍夫曼可以指出其中的措辞。

One of the things that Chief Justice O'Connor told me was that she thought that most Ohioans don't understand what kind of flawed, leaky boat this constitutional amendment is.

首席大法官奥康纳告诉我的一件事是，她认为大多数俄亥俄州人不明白这项宪法修正案是一艘有缺陷、漏洞百出的船。

And I think Huffman really believed from the start that when they wrote this language, he'd created rules that would allow him to get his map through, that would let him get any map through with any mix of Democratic and Republican districts because he believes, again, that the language in the constitution says that if you follow all the other rules in drawing districts, it doesn't matter how many districts each party gets.

我认为霍夫曼从一开始就真的相信，当他们编写这种语言时，他制定了规则，使他的地图能够通过，这将使他能够通过民主党和共和党选区的任何混合的任何地图，因为他再次相信，宪法中的语言表明，如果你在绘制选区时遵循所有其他规则，那么每个政党获得多少个选区并不重要。

In fact, we know from court documents that he instructed the Republican mapmakers to get everything else about the maps correct.

事实上，我们从法庭文件中得知，他指示共和党地图制作者将地图的其他所有内容都正确化。

Be sure to follow all those other rules, and don't worry about how many districts you give to the Democrats.

一定要遵守所有其他规则，不要担心你给民主党多少个选区。

But beyond that, in a bigger way, Huffman told me he thinks that there are real limits to what courts can tell legislators to do, just in general.

但除此之外，霍夫曼告诉我，从更大的角度来看，他认为一般而言，法院可以告诉立法者做的事情确实存在限制。

And not long after Huffman and I talked, Republicans in Ohio took one of their redistricting cases to the US Supreme Court.

霍夫曼和我谈话后不久，俄亥俄州的共和党人将他们的一个选区重新划分案件提交给美国最高法院。

Basically, it's like a North Carolina case you may have heard of that the court is going to hear this year, where one side is arguing that the state supreme courts have no power at all over any state legislatures.

基本上，这就像你可能听说过的北卡罗来纳州案件，法院将在今年审理，一方辩称州最高法院对任何州立法机构都没有任何权力。

Fifty state chief justices, Republicans and Democrats, filed a brief with the Supreme Court arguing against that point of view.

五十名共和党和民主党州首席大法官向最高法院提交了一份简报，反对这一观点。

OK, so what happens next?

好的，那么接下来会发生什么？

Well, even while they're arguing that state supreme court justices should have less power, Republicans in Ohio right now are fighting to get different justices onto the state supreme court, justices who might agree with Matt Huffman's arguments and approve Republican maps that the current court rejects as unconstitutional.

好吧，尽管他们认为州最高法院法官应该拥有更少的权力，但俄亥俄州的共和党人现在正在努力让不同的法官进入州最高法院，这些法官可能会同意马特·霍夫曼的论点，并批准当前法院因违宪而拒绝接受的共和党地图。

Three seats on the court are open.

法庭上有三个座位空着。

Every time the court rejected the Republican maps, it was by the narrowest margin, a four to three vote.

每次法院否决共和党的地图时，都是以四比三的微弱优势。

The two parties have spent over $10 million on these Supreme Court races so far, the Republicans outspending the Democrats nearly two to one.

到目前为止，两党在这些最高法院竞选上花费了超过 1000 万美元，共和党的支出比民主党高出近二比一。

The campaigns are unashamedly partisan.

这些竞选活动是毫不掩饰的党派之争。

Here's one of the Republican supreme court candidates speaking at an event at a boathouse about the three judicial candidates.

这是一位共和党最高法院候选人在船库举行的一次活动上谈论三名司法候选人的情况。

If you vote for three and all three win, we take back conservative control of the court, if that's important to you.

如果您投票支持三人并且三人都获胜，我们将收回保守派对法院的控制权（如果这对您很重要）。

[APPLAUSE] And just for myself, don't forget, that's Fischer with a C for the constitution and common sense.

[掌声]仅对我自己来说，不要忘记，那是费舍尔，宪法和常识都是 C。

Thanks.

谢谢。

If electing justices who will side with Matt Huffman's reading of the constitution is the Republican hope right now, the Democrats and good government groups have drawn other conclusions from their exhausting year-long slog at the redistricting commission.

如果选举支持马特·霍夫曼对宪法解读的大法官是共和党目前的希望，那么民主党和优秀的政府团体已经从选区重划委员会长达一年的艰苦努力中得出了其他结论。

Here's Jen Miller of the League of Women Voters.

这是女性选民联盟的珍·米勒 (Jen Miller) 的报道。

The lesson is that politicians are going to be politicians, and we have to take them out of the equation completely.

我们的教训是，政治家就是政治家，我们必须将他们完全排除在外。

How?

如何？

Jen Miller I don't-- we're going to have to have another ballot initiative.

珍·米勒（Jen Miller）：我不——我们将不得不发起另一次投票倡议。

It's going to be hard.

这会很难。

It's going to be expensive.

它会很贵。

It's going to take a long time.

这将需要很长时间。

But if you look around the states and see which places redistricting went well, they were independent, balanced commissions.

但如果你环顾一下各州，看看哪些地方重新划分选区进展顺利，就会发现它们是独立、平衡的委员会。

Independent in this case means it's not politicians or public officials drawing the maps.

在这种情况下，独立意味着绘制地图的不是政客或公职人员。

If you want to imagine another way that things could've gone in Ohio this year, you can just look at New York State.

如果你想想象今年俄亥俄州的情况会如何发展，你可以看看纽约州。

In New York, it was the Democrats who run the state who drew a heavily gerrymandered map.

在纽约，是执政的民主党人绘制了一张严重不公正划分选区的地图。

They gave themselves majorities in 22 of the state's 26 congressional districts that determine who goes to the US House of Representatives.

他们在该州 26 个国会选区中的 22 个中获得了多数席位，这些选区决定了谁进入美国众议院。

This year New York, like Ohio, had a brand new constitutional amendment to stop gerrymandering.

今年，纽约和俄亥俄州一样，制定了一项全新的宪法修正案来阻止选区划分不公。

And this year, the New York State Supreme Court struck down the Democrat's gerrymandered map as illegal, unconstitutional.

今年，纽约州最高法院以非法、违宪为由驳回了民主党不公正划分选区的地图。

A special master appointed by the court redrew the map.

朝廷指定了一位专门的大师重新绘制了地图。

The number of safe Democratic districts dropped from 22 to just 15.

安全的民主党选区数量从 22 个减少到 15 个。

And the Democrats stopped fighting.

民主党也停止了战斗。

They accepted the court's ruling.

他们接受了法院的裁决。

That's the map the state will go to the polls with this week.

这就是该州本周将用于投票的地图。

It'll be that much harder, seven seats harder, for Democrats to keep their control of the US House of Representatives with this un-gerrymandered map.

对于民主党来说，凭借这张不受选区划分的地图来保住对美国众议院的控制权将会更加困难，甚至要困难七个席位。

And why did the Democrats in New York accept the court's ruling?

纽约的民主党人为何接受法院的裁决？

Well for starters, it would've been a lot harder for the Democrats to keep fighting for their illegal map because New York's constitution lets the Supreme Court appoint a special master who works for the court to draw a new map, and then the court can impose that new map on the entire state.

首先，民主党要继续为他们的非法地图而战会更加困难，因为纽约宪法允许最高法院任命一位专门为法院工作的大师来绘制新地图，然后法院可以将新地图强加于整个州。

Ohio's constitution doesn't have anything like that.

俄亥俄州的宪法没有这样的规定。

In fact, the wording in the constitution specifically prohibits it, thanks to Matt Huffman and the Republicans.

事实上，多亏了马特·霍夫曼和共和党，宪法中的措辞明确禁止这样做。

If a map is bad, if it gerrymanders, the constitution throws the job of redrawing back to politicians on the redistricting commission, who can basically stonewall.

如果一张地图很糟糕，如果它不公正地划分选区，宪法就会把重新绘制选区的工作交给重新划分选区委员会的政治家，而他们基本上可以阻挠。

And so Republicans in Ohio never redrew their map to give the court what it asked for.

因此，俄亥俄州的共和党人从未重新绘制地图来满足法院的要求。

And they hope they'll never have to, when they get a new set of justices on the court this next year.

他们希望明年法院任命一批新法官时，他们永远不必这样做。

[MUSIC - "I'LL DO IT ANYWAY" BY THE LEMONHEADS]

[音乐-柠檬头乐队的“无论如何我都会这么做”]

Our program was produced today by Zoe Chace and Valerie Kipnis.

今天我们的节目由 Zoe Chace 和 Valerie Kipnis 制作。

People who put together today's show include Elna Baker, Chris Benderev, Sean Cole, Stowe Nelson, Katherine Rae Mondo, Nadia Reiman, Ryan Rumery, Charlotte Sleeper, Lilly Sullivan, Frances Swanson, Christopher Swetala, Marisa Robertson-Textor, Matt Tierney, and Julie Whitaker.

今天节目的制作人包括 Elna Baker、Chris Benderev、Sean Cole、Stowe Nelson、Katherine Rae Mondo、Nadia Reiman、Ryan Rumery、Charlotte Sleeper、Lilly Sullivan、Frances Swanson、Christopher Swetala、Marisa Robertson-Textor、Matt Tierney 和 Julie Whitaker。

Our managing editor is Sarah Abdurrahman, and our senior editor is David Kestenbaum.

我们的总编辑是 Sarah Abdurrahman，我们的高级编辑是 David Kestenbaum。

Our executive editor is Emanuele Berry.

我们的执行编辑是 Emanuele Berry。

I first learned about the redistricting fight in Ohio reading Jane Mayer's article in the New Yorker not long ago about the Republican supermajority there, how it passes laws that are much more red than Ohio's population, which I recommend.

我第一次了解到俄亥俄州的选区重新划分之争，是不久前在《纽约客》上读到简·梅尔 (Jane Mayer) 在《纽约客》上发表的文章，内容是共和党在当地占绝对多数，以及它如何通过比俄亥俄州人口更红的法律，这是我推荐的。

A special thanks today to David Niven and Dan Tokaji, who both helped with map analysis, and to Eric French and Leticia Wiggins from WOSU, who recorded most of these interviews.

今天特别感谢 David Niven 和 Dan Tokaji，他们都帮助进行了地图分析，并感谢来自 WOSU 的 Eric French 和 Leticia Wiggins，他们记录了大部分采访。

Also thanks to Robert Cupp, John Fortney, Aaron Mulvey, Dennis Kucinich, Freda Levenson, Yurij Rudensky, Michael McDonald, Ann Henkener, Keary McCarthy, Karen Kasler, Andy Chow, Chris Welter, Ilya Maritz, Mallory Golski, Maya Majikas, Myla Danison, Jeff Rusnak, Chris Davey, Bishop Lord, and of course, Sheldon Harnick.

还要感谢 Robert Cupp、John Fortney、Aaron Mulvey、Dennis Kucinich、Freda Levenson、Yurij Rudensky、Michael McDonald、Ann Henkener、Keary McCarthy、Karen Kasler、Andy Chow、Chris Welter、Ilya Maritz、Mallory Golski、Maya Majikas、Myla Danison、Jeff Rusnak、Chris Davey、Bishop Lord，当然还有 Sheldon哈尼克.

Our website, ThisAmericanLife.org, where you can stream our archive of over 750 episodes for absolutely free.

我们的网站 ThisAmericanLife.org，您可以在其中完全免费地观看我们的 750 多集档案。

Also merch for your holiday shopping-- is it too soon to say that?

还有节日购物的商品——现在说这个还为时过早吗？

I just said it.

我刚刚说过了。

Again, ThisAmericanLife.org.

再次，ThisAmericanLife.org。

This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.

《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。

Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia, or as he calls himself, Torey C.

一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生，或者他自称 Torey C.

Malatia.

马拉蒂亚。

With a C for the constitution and common sense.

C代表宪法和常识。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Back next week with more stories of "This American Life."

下周将带来更多“美国生活”的故事。

[MUSIC - "I'LL DO IT ANYWAY" BY THE LEMONHEADS]

[音乐-柠檬头乐队的“无论如何我都会这么做”]

This American Life This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.

This American Life This American Life 与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。