780: Setting the Record Straight - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #780 | September 30, 2022 780: Setting the Record Straight Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 780 集 | 2022 年 9 月 30 日 780：澄清事实 注：《This American Life》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
序言：序言 来自 WBEZ 芝加哥的 Ira Glass，这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
I'm joined in the studio right now by my coworker, Tobin Low.
我的同事托宾·洛（Tobin Low）现在加入了我的工作室。
Hey there, Tobin.
嘿，托宾。
Hi, Ira.
嗨，艾拉。
Ira Glass And I'm just going to say that the story you're about to tell, you acknowledge the existence of sex, but that's really all that you acknowledge, that it exists.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：我只想说，在你要讲述的故事中，你承认性的存在，但这就是你所承认的一切，它的存在。
Tell me what happened.
告诉我发生了什么事。
Yeah, OK.
是的，好的。
So this guy, Paul, this happened when he was in his early 20s.
所以保罗这个人，这件事发生在他 20 岁出头的时候。
And he arranges this hookup with a guy he meets online.
他和他在网上认识的一个人安排了这次勾搭。
And I should say, the guy, his profile doesn't have that much info.
我应该说，这个人，他的个人资料没有那么多信息。
It says he's closeted, that if they're going to meet up, it has to be very discreet.
上面说他没有出柜，如果他们要见面，就必须非常谨慎。
He said I couldn't go over to his place.
他说我不能去他那儿。
And I also had a roommate, so it would have been difficult for me to host him as well.
而且我还有一个室友，所以我也很难招待他。
So he told me, I know a spot.
所以他告诉我，我知道一个地方。
I know a spot that we can go.
我知道我们可以去的地方。
Why don't you just meet me at these cross streets at 10 o'clock.
你为什么不十点钟在十字路口来找我呢？
And I said, OK, works for me.
我说，好吧，对我有用。
And so I drove over at night to where he told me to meet him.
于是我晚上开车去了他让我见面的地方。
I get to the cross streets, and he isn't there.
我走到十字路口，他不在。
There's nobody there.
那里没人。
And so I think, OK, no worries.
所以我想，好吧，不用担心。
He's running late.
他要迟到了。
I'll just hang around for a bit.
我就闲逛一会儿。
And so finally, he sees this guy standing on a corner, and the guy beckons for him to pull over.
最后，他看到这个人站在街角，那个人示意他靠边停车。
And I'm like, OK, great, confirmation.
我想，好吧，太好了，确认了。
It's him, perfect.
就是他，完美。
And I lower the window.
我放下车窗。
And I say to him, oh, sorry about that.
我对他说，哦，对此感到抱歉。
I just wasn't sure if it was you.
我只是不确定是不是你。
And he was like, don't sweat it.
他说，别担心。
It's all good.
一切都很好。
And he gets in my car.
然后他就上了我的车。
So Paul asks him, where are we going?
于是保罗问他，我们要去哪里？
And the guy starts to direct him to the hookup spot, like, make a left up there, turn right at this corner.
那家伙开始引导他去连接点，比如，在那里左转，在这个拐角处右转。
Things started to feel a little weird when several minutes passed, and we were still driving because I had been under the assumption that this secret spot would have been around the corner or something.
几分钟过去了，事情开始感觉有点奇怪，我们仍在开车，因为我一直假设这个秘密地点就在拐角处或其他什么地方。
So then I ask him, well, where are we going?
然后我问他，好吧，我们要去哪里？
And then he says, Glendale.
然后他说，格伦代尔。
Now, if you're not familiar with LA, I mean, the place where I picked him up was in Franklin Village.
现在，如果你不熟悉洛杉矶，我的意思是，我接他的地方是在富兰克林村。
And Glendale isn't super, super far, but it's still close to a 20-minute drive.
格伦代尔并不是非常非常远，但仍然接近 20 分钟车程。
Something must not be adding up here.
这里肯定没有什么东西。
And then I start to second guess everything that had happened on that ride so far.
然后我开始重新猜测迄今为止在那次骑行中发生的一切。
Why wasn't he at the spot when he said he would be?
为什么他说他会在现场的时候却没有出现？
He was a little bit further up.
他的位置还稍远一些。
So then that was also weird.
那么这也很奇怪。
And then he realizes-- Paul This must not be the guy.
然后他意识到—— 保罗 这一定不是那个人。
There's no way that this is the guy I'm supposed to be meeting.
这不可能是我要见的人。
And so was he scared?
那么他害怕吗？
Did he think this guy might rob him or hurt him in some way?
他认为这家伙可能会抢劫他或者以某种方式伤害他吗？
He doesn't have time to be scared because he pretty immediately realizes exactly what's happened, why a guy would wave you down and get into your car.
他没有时间害怕，因为他很快就意识到发生了什么事，为什么一个人会挥手让你下来并进入你的车。
This was a total stranger to me who was there waiting for his rideshare driver.
这对我来说是一个完全陌生的人，他在那里等待他的拼车司机。
See, once you say that, it seems totally obvious.
看，一旦你这么说，它似乎就很明显了。
I know.
我知道。
You would think, right?
你会想，对吧？
But can I present to you Paul's defense of himself?
但我可以向你们介绍一下保罗为自己辩护的情况吗？
Please.
请。
Tobin Low So first of all, this was 2013.
Tobin Low 首先，这是 2013 年。
So if you remember, that's early in rideshare culture.
所以如果你还记得的话，那是拼车文化的早期。
So the whole dance that happens where you wave down a driver, you get in, and people know what to say to each other--
所以整个过程就是你向司机挥手示意，然后上车，人们就知道该对彼此说什么——
That just wasn't in his head in the same way back then.
他当时的想法已经不一样了。
Exactly.
确切地。
The other thing is that the guy that he was supposed to meet up with, his hookup, the photo on the profile was kind of grainy, and he was wearing sunglasses in the photo.
另一件事是，他应该会见的那个人，他的转播，个人资料上的照片有点颗粒状，而且照片中他戴着墨镜。
So Paul actually didn't have a clear picture in his mind of what the guy was supposed to look like.
所以保罗实际上并不清楚这个人应该是什么样子。
Oh, OK.
哦，好吧。
Tobin Low Yeah.
托宾·洛 是的。
Though there is one more thing that's a little bit more of an obvious giveaway.
尽管还有一件事是更明显的赠品。
I always feel a little bit silly when people point out that he got in my back seat.
当人们指出他坐在我的后座时，我总是觉得有点傻。
He got in my back seat.
他坐到了我的后座上。
But I invite you to look at it from my perspective because I thought that in a matter of moments, I was going to be joining him in the back seat.
但我邀请你从我的角度来看这件事，因为我想不久之后我就会和他一起坐在后座上。
So I didn't think it was that weird.
所以我并不认为这有那么奇怪。
He was just preemptively getting in the back, and--
他只是先发制人地躲到了后面，然后——
Oh, he's just-- he's thinking ahead.
哦，他只是——他在超前思考。
He's 10 steps ahead of you.
他比你领先10步。
He's thinking ahead.
他正在考虑未来。
It's the more spacious part of the car.
这是车内比较宽敞的部分。
And I didn't even know the name of the person I was meeting, so it's not like I could have been like, hey, are you Andrew or whatever?
我什至不知道我要见的人的名字，所以我不可能说，嘿，你是安德鲁还是什么？
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
He could have gotten in and been like, hey, are you here for Dave?
他本可以进去说，嘿，你是为了戴夫而来的吗？
And I would have been like, well, I don't know.
我会说，好吧，我不知道。
I guess I am.
我想我是。
So now Paul has to make a decision.
所以现在保罗必须做出决定。
Is he going to say something?
他要说什么吗？
I have no idea what to do because part of me wants to pull over and say to him, there's been a huge mistake.
我不知道该怎么办，因为我的一部分想停下来对他说，这是一个巨大的错误。
But then I realized that if I were to do that, I would have a lot of explaining to do because he would have wanted to know, why did I let him in my car?
但后来我意识到，如果我这样做，我需要做很多解释，因为他会想知道，为什么我让他上我的车？
Also, I should say by now, they've been driving in the car together for several minutes.
而且，我应该说现在他们已经一起开车了几分钟了。
So it's way past the threshold for a lighthearted oops, misunderstanding.
所以这已经超出了轻松的误会的门槛。
And then Paul, he has this more alarming thought.
然后保罗，他有这个更令人震惊的想法。
If this is what I think and this is somebody who is, in fact, just waiting for his Uber, then the actual driver is going to be pulling up and trying to find him any second now.
如果这就是我的想法，而这个人实际上只是在等待他的 Uber，那么真正的司机现在就会停下来并试图找到他。
Not even two seconds later, as soon as I had that realization, his phone rings.
不到两秒钟，当我意识到这一点时，他的电话就响了。
Oh my God.
我的天啊。
Paul My heart stops because I know what it's going to be before he even picks it up.
保罗：我的心跳停止了，因为在他拿起它之前我就知道它会是什么。
I know it's going to be his driver telling him that he's here.
我知道他的司机会告诉他他在这里。
And I feel so foolish, and I feel so embarrassed because I thought I was about to be outed.
我觉得自己很愚蠢，也很尴尬，因为我以为自己就要被淘汰了。
I panicked, and my heart was racing, and I did not know what to do.
我惊慌失措，心狂跳，不知道该怎么办。
And then he picks up the phone.
然后他拿起电话。
And what does he say?
他说什么？
Paul He's saying things like, huh?
保罗 他是这么说的，是吧？
What do you mean?
你是什么意思？
I don't understand.
我不明白。
What do you mean you're outside?
你在外面是什么意思？
Oh my god.
我的天啊。
Paul And he was like, huh, that's so weird.
保罗 他说，嗯，这太奇怪了。
I'm already in the car.
我已经在车里了。
And then Paul has this total perspective shift because now he's thinking about, how is this going to look from the backseat of the car?
然后保罗的视角发生了彻底的转变，因为现在他在想，从汽车后座看这会是什么样子？
That would be so frightening to be sitting in your Uber, get a call from your driver saying that they're outside, and then you look at the details of what car you're supposed to be looking for and what your driver looks like, see that your driver is not that person and the car is not that vehicle.
坐在你的优步里，接到司机的电话，说他们在外面，然后你查看你应该寻找的汽车的详细信息以及司机的长相，发现你的司机不是那个人，汽车也不是那辆车，那真是太可怕了。
If I were him, I would have thought, OK, I'm being kidnapped.
如果我是他，我会想，好吧，我被绑架了。
Or what is happening right now?
或者现在正在发生什么？
So the guy hangs up the phone.
于是，那人就挂了电话。
And it's at this point that Paul gets this gift from the gods.
正是在这一点上，保罗从众神那里得到了这份礼物。
He says to me, do they ever send two drivers?
他对我说，他们派过两名司机吗？
Immediately, I was just like, yeah, sometimes there's a glitch.
我立刻就想，是的，有时会出现问题。
Sometimes there's a glitch, and they send two drivers.
有时出现故障，他们会派出两名司机。
That's what happened.
这就是发生的事情。
I know.
我知道。
And for the rest of the drive, he commits to the part.
在接下来的驾驶过程中，他致力于这个角色。
He is Paul the Uber driver, which means he plays along as the guy in the back tries to make conversation.
他是 Uber 司机保罗，这意味着当后面的人试图交谈时他会配合。
Oh, how long have you been driving?
哦，你开车多久了？
Do you like it?
你喜欢它？
Do you get paid well?
你的薪水好吗？
Do you meet interesting people?
你遇到有趣的人吗？
Just things like that.
就是这样的事情。
And how are you answering?
你怎么回答？
Paul I was just making things up.
保罗，我只是在编造事情。
Yeah, I've been dri-- not too long.
是的，我已经醉了——时间不长。
It's all right.
没关系。
I got paid all right.
我得到了报酬，一切顺利。
The people are nice.
人们都很好。
I was just completely making it all up.
我完全是在编造这一切。
The funny thing is, though, that because I didn't know whether he thought I was Uber or Lyft or some other rideshare, I had to be kind of vague because I didn't want to say, oh, yeah, Uber is great.
但有趣的是，因为我不知道他认为我是 Uber、Lyft 还是其他拼车服务，所以我不得不含糊其辞，因为我不想说，哦，是的，Uber 很棒。
And then he'd be like, wait, I thought this was a Lyft?
然后他会说，等等，我以为这是一辆 Lyft？
And I'd be like, uhhh...that's what I mean.
我会说，呃……这就是我的意思。
The lucky thing for Paul is that because he asked for directions when the guy first got in the car, the guy doesn't really notice that Paul doesn't have the app open or the GPS open.
对 Paul 来说幸运的是，因为当那家伙第一次上车时他就向他问路，所以那家伙并没有真正注意到 Paul 没有打开应用程序或 GPS。
He's just comfortable giving him directions all the way to Glendale.
他很乐意为他指明前往格伦代尔的路线。
So eventually, they do end up at his house.
所以最终，他们确实来到了他家。
And then as he's getting out of the car, I did-- part of me, a tiny, tiny part of me, was thinking still, is this the guy?
然后当他下车时，我——我的一部分，我的一小部分，仍然在想，这就是那个人吗？
Is he about to invite me inside?
他要邀请我进去吗？
Just trying to hold on to any glimmer of this making sense.
只是试图抓住任何一丝有意义的迹象。
And then incredibly, the guy does invite him up.
然后令人难以置信的是，那家伙确实邀请了他。
He does.
他做到了。
Tobin Low He does.
托宾·洛 他做到了。
And actually, they are still together today.
事实上，他们今天仍然在一起。
Really?
真的吗？
Tobin Low No. Of course not.
托宾·洛 不。当然不是。
The guy just wishes him a good night and goes into his house.
那家伙只是祝他晚安，然后走进了他的房子。
[LAUGHTER] That's it.
[笑声] 就是这样。
And the next day, Paul got a message from his actual hookup, and it turns out, the guy just got scared and decided not to come.
第二天，保罗收到了他真正的搭档发来的消息，事实证明，那家伙只是害怕了，决定不来。
But to this day, Paul still stands by his decision.
但直到今天，保罗仍然坚持自己的决定。
You know what?
你知道吗？
I think it is for the best that I didn't set the record straight.
我认为我没有澄清事实是最好的。
Because in that case, he just had a totally normal night.
因为在那种情况下，他只是度过了一个完全正常的夜晚。
He had a totally normal night.
他度过了一个完全正常的夜晚。
And you know what?
你知道吗？
He got a free ride.
他免费搭车了。
It's hard to decide to set the record straight.
很难决定澄清事实。
The world usually does not want to hear it.
世界通常不想听到它。
It is almost always an inconvenient truth.
这几乎总是一个令人难以忽视的事实。
Today on our program, we have people who step up, tell the truth the rest of us have not heard and sometimes do not want to hear, and let the chips fall where they may.
今天，在我们的节目中，我们有人挺身而出，说出我们其他人没有听到、有时也不想听到的真相，并让事情随其自然。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act 1, Home Test.
第 1 幕，家庭测试。
So we begin today with a kid, 12 years old.
今天我们从一个 12 岁的孩子开始。
He's trying to figure out the truth, to set things straight for himself.
他试图找出真相，为自己解决问题。
This boy, Ilya, his family had recently escaped from Mariupol in Ukraine.
这个男孩名叫伊利亚（Ilya），他的家人最近逃离了乌克兰的马里乌波尔（Mariupol）。
Mariupol was a city that you may remember, back in the spring, everybody was trying to get out of.
马里乌波尔是一座你可能还记得的城市，春天的时候，每个人都想逃离。
It was under siege for months.
它被围困了几个月。
Food was running out.
食物快吃完了。
The Russians bombed a maternity and children's hospital, then a theater that people were using as a bomb shelter.
俄罗斯人轰炸了一家妇幼医院，然后轰炸了一座被人们用作防空洞的剧院。
Soldiers and civilians made a long last stand at the steel plant.
士兵和平民在钢铁厂进行了最后的抵抗。
There were lots of failed attempts to set up a humanitarian corridor.
建立人道主义走廊的尝试多次失败。
Big parts of the city were destroyed.
城市的大部分地区被毁。
Ilya and his family managed to escape all that.
伊利亚和他的家人设法逃脱了这一切。
They made it to Poland.
他们到达了波兰。
And then last month, incredibly, they decided they wanted to go back to Mariupol to see if their old home was a place that they could still live.
然后上个月，令人难以置信的是，他们决定回到马里乌波尔，看看他们的老家是否仍然可以居住。
Producer Valerie Kipnis talked to Ilya about what happened.
制片人瓦莱丽·基普尼斯 (Valerie Kipnis) 向伊利亚讲述了所发生的事情。
I met Ilya while I was volunteering at a refugee center in Warsaw this past spring.
去年春天，我在华沙的一个难民中心做志愿者时遇到了伊利亚。
[CHILDREN SHOUT] One rainy day in June, I was showing a couple kids how to use a camera and interview one another when Ilya walked into the room.
[孩子们喊叫] 六月的一个下雨天，当伊利亚走进房间时，我正在向几个孩子展示如何使用相机并互相采访。
I could tell he was interested but too shy to say much.
我看得出来他很感兴趣，但害羞得不敢多说。
I asked if he wanted to join us.
我问他是否想加入我们。
And one of the younger kids asked if they could interview him.
其中一个年龄较小的孩子问是否可以采访他。
They were eager to try with someone new.
他们渴望与新朋友一起尝试。
He shrugged and plopped himself in front of the camera.
他耸耸肩，一屁股坐在镜头前。
You could tell that outside of war times, Ilya was a cool kid.
你可以看出，在战争时期之外，伊利亚是一个很酷的孩子。
It was something about the way he carried himself.
这与他的行事方式有关。
[CHILDREN SHOUTING IN UKRAINIAN AND LAUGHING]
[孩子们用乌克兰语大喊大笑]
I remember thinking about how dark the rings were under his eyes.
我记得当时在想他眼睛下面的眼圈有多黑。
I double-checked as he sat in front of the camera.
当他坐在镜头前时，我仔细检查了一遍。
You sure you want to do this?
您确定要这样做吗？
Why not, he said.
为什么不呢，他说。
Julia, who's seven, asks his name and how old he is.
七岁的朱莉娅问他的名字和年龄。
Valerie Kipnis --my name is Ilya, and I'm 12 years old.
Valerie Kipnis——我叫 Ilya，今年 12 岁。
My city is Mariupol.
我的城市是马里乌波尔。
I was born in Mariupol.
我出生在马里乌波尔。
I've lived there for a span of 12 years-- all of them, I lived there, until the orcs fell on us, that is.
我在那里住了 12 年——所有的时间里，我都住在那里，直到兽人袭击我们为止。
That's how I'm going to name such unpleasant characters.
这就是我要给这些令人不快的角色命名的方式。
The orcs are his way of saying Russian soldiers.
兽人是他对俄罗斯士兵的称呼。
Then he tells the room-- Ilya [RUSSIAN SPEECH]
然后他告诉房间里的人——伊利亚（俄语）
Valerie Kipnis --your second question is probably going to be about my feelings about the war.
瓦莱丽·基普尼斯——你的第二个问题可能是关于我对战争的感受。
And then he went on to answer his own question.
然后他继续回答自己的问题。
He described watching Azovstal, the massive steel factory near his house that the Russians bombed for months, as it burned for days on end, about how he had hid in a basement while snipers fired at his home, right into their windows.
他描述了自己观看阿佐夫斯塔尔（Azovstal）这座位于他家附近的大型钢铁厂，俄罗斯人对这家钢铁厂进行了几个月的轰炸，并连续燃烧了数天，讲述了他如何躲在地下室里，而狙击手却直接向他家的窗户开枪。
Ilya says the scariest feeling was when he finally made it to his grandma's house, a house he spent a lot of time in, and it was completely burned down.
伊利亚说，最可怕的感觉是当他终于到达祖母的房子时，他在这所房子里呆了很多时间，但房子完全被烧毁了。
There were corpses of people laying outside all around.
外面到处都是人的尸体。
He didn't know if his grandma was alive or not.
他不知道自己的奶奶是否还活着。
We came to my grandma's, and we couldn't enter because the house was completely mined.
我们来到了奶奶家，我们进不去，因为房子里全是地雷。
It wasn't until hours later he found out his grandmother had survived.
直到几个小时后，他才发现他的祖母已经幸存。
Here, Zhenya, the 11-year-old filming him, stopped recording.
在这里，拍摄他的 11 岁女孩热尼娅 (Zhenya) 停止了录制。
Ilya covered his face with his Angry Birds t-shirt.
伊利亚用愤怒的小鸟 T 恤遮住了脸。
It was remarkable to me that he had made it out of Mariupol.
对我来说，他能从马里乌波尔走出去是一件了不起的事。
In all the time I was in Poland, I didn't meet anyone else from his city.
我在波兰的这段时间里，我没有遇到来自他所在城市的其他人。
Ilya and his family made it to one of Warsaw's nicer refugee centers, which offer them long-term housing.
伊利亚和他的家人来到了华沙一处较好的难民中心，那里为他们提供了长期住房。
Doctors, lawyers, teachers, and psychiatrists would come in to help on site.
医生、律师、教师和精神科医生会到现场提供帮助。
There was food and a playroom for kids.
有食物和儿童游戏室。
It was safe, well-run, orderly.
它安全、运行良好、有序。
The day I met Ilya, he asked for my number right away.
我见到伊利亚的那天，他立即向我要了电话号码。
That's just the kind of kid he is, a little businessman.
他就是这样的孩子，一个小商人。
Sometimes in the mornings, if I was late to my shift, he would call me to make sure I was still coming and then confirm a time to be exact.
有时早上，如果我迟到了，他会打电话给我，以确保我仍然来，然后确认准确的时间。
He would then inform the others.
然后他会通知其他人。
When I would arrive at the shelter, he would be waiting for me outside.
当我到达避难所时，他会在外面等我。
But Ilya was also more reserved than the other kids.
但伊利亚也比其他孩子更加保守。
He couldn't always break out of his quiet.
他总是无法打破沉默。
When he did, he would get into long conversations with me, using phrases like, listen here, Val, or you got to hear me out, Val.
当他这样做时，他会与我进行长时间的对话，使用诸如“听在这里，瓦尔，或者你必须听我说完，瓦尔”之类的短语。
After months of hanging out with Ilya and the other kids, I had to go back to the States.
与伊利亚和其他孩子一起玩了几个月后，我不得不回到美国。
On my last night working at the shelter, as Ilya walked me to the tram stop, which had become our daily tradition, he chased me with a water gun and laughed.
我在收容所工作的最后一晚，当伊利亚送我去电车站时（这已成为我们的日常传统），他拿着水枪追着我笑。
He seemed to be getting used to Poland.
他似乎已经习惯了波兰。
[CHILDREN LAUGH AND SHOUT] But a few weeks later, he called to say that his family-- him, his mom, dad, and sister-- were making plans to go back, back to Mariupol.
[孩子们又笑又叫]但几周后，他打电话说他的家人——他、他的妈妈、爸爸和妹妹——正在计划回去，回到马里乌波尔。
I hadn't heard of any families like Ilya's who'd managed to escape Mariupol and make it all the way to safety in Poland to then try and return.
我没听说过有哪个家庭像伊利亚一家一样设法逃离马里乌波尔并一路安全地到达波兰，然后尝试返回。
After all, the city was badly damaged and now under Russian control.
毕竟，这座城市遭到严重破坏，现在处于俄罗斯的控制之下。
And the shelter they were in, it was one of the better ones, the ones most wanted to get into.
他们所在的庇护所是最好的庇护所之一，也是最想进入的庇护所之一。
I called Ilya's mom.
我给伊利亚的妈妈打了电话。
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Valerie Kipnis She told me that last week, it was Ilya and his sister's birthdays.
[俄语演讲] Valerie Kipnis 她告诉我，上周是伊利亚和他妹妹的生日。
They didn't want birthday parties, she said.
她说，他们不想举办生日聚会。
They didn't want anything, no presents.
他们不想要任何东西，不想要礼物。
The only thing that they wanted for their birthday were tickets home.
他们生日唯一想要的就是回家的票。
I asked her, have you been trying to prepare your children for the fact that things may be different?
我问她，你是否一直在努力让你的孩子做好准备，面对事情可能会有所不同的事实？
She said, yeah.
她说，是的。
I tell them, look how beautiful Warsaw is.
我告诉他们，看看华沙多美丽。
Look at everything we have here.
看看我们这里拥有的一切。
When we come home, it's not going to be beautiful like this.
当我们回到家时，它不会像这样美丽。
She says she tells them that they're not going to have ice cream.
她说她告诉他们不会吃冰淇淋。
And the kids say, we don't need any of this.
孩子们说，我们不需要这些。
We're ready to eat what we have.
我们已经准备好吃我们拥有的东西了。
We just want to go home.
我们只想回家。
The truth is, Ilya's mom felt the same way as her kids.
事实上，伊利亚的妈妈和她的孩子们也有同样的感受。
She told me she'd rather wake up in her own home than stay in Poland.
她告诉我她宁愿在自己的家里醒来也不愿留在波兰。
They'd been on the run for months, stayed at so many temporary places, and she felt no relief or comfort.
他们已经逃亡了几个月，住在很多临时的地方，她没有感到任何轻松或安慰。
And also-- this was a big part of it-- she felt an obligation to her own parents, who she'd left behind.
而且——这是其中很重要的一部分——她觉得自己对自己的父母负有义务，因为她把父母抛在了身后。
But she also worried about what it would be like for her kids to see the city so changed.
但她也担心她的孩子们看到这座城市发生如此变化会是什么样子。
They'll have to come to their own conclusions, she said.
她说，他们必须得出自己的结论。
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Valerie Kipnis He said he wanted to go home because that's where his grandma is.
[俄语演讲] Valerie Kipnis 他说他想回家，因为那是他奶奶的地方。
He said, I'd rather be home where sure, conditions aren't great, but I can do as I like, than just be like a little cat here, not knowing my place.
他说，我宁愿待在家里，当然，条件不是很好，但我可以做我想做的事，而不是像一只小猫在这里，不知道自己的位置。
Prior to the war, Ilya had spent most of his time living at his grandparents' house because his parents work so much.
战前，由于父母工作繁忙，伊利亚大部分时间都住在祖父母家里。
When he and his parents fled Mariupol, it was the first time he had left his grandma in his entire life.
当他和父母逃离马里乌波尔时，这是他一生中第一次离开祖母。
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Valerie Kipnis I'm worried about only one thing, Ilya said.
[俄语演讲] Valerie Kipnis 我只担心一件事，Ilya 说。
I really don't want to go back to school.
我真的不想再回学校了。
He said he wasn't worried about anything that might happen within the classroom.
他说他并不担心教室里可能发生任何事情。
He was worried about actually getting there.
他担心能否真正到达那里。
He had heard that there were mines everywhere.
他听说到处都有地雷。
He said it freaked him out.
他说这把他吓坏了。
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Valerie Kipnis He didn't like his parents leaving him to go to work at the factory for the same reason and told me he'd come up with a plan to start a business there so they could all work together, selling backpacks and knickknacks at the flea market or something.
[俄语演讲] Valerie Kipnis 他不喜欢他的父母出于同样的原因让他去工厂工作，并告诉我他想出了一个在那里创业的计划，这样他们就可以一起工作，在跳蚤市场上卖背包和小摆设什么的。
Ilya actually expected home to be different.
伊利亚实际上希望家能有所不同。
He was aware that Russia had fully occupied his city and saw in social media that now even the sign at the entrance that said Mariupol had been changed.
他知道俄罗斯已经完全占领了他的城市，并在社交媒体上看到，现在连入口处写着“马里乌波尔”的标牌都变了。
OK, now, now, look at the first photo.
好的，现在，现在，看第一张照片。
That's what they've changed it to.
这就是他们把它改成的。
And now look at the second photo.
现在看第二张照片。
It says Mariupol.
上面写着马里乌波尔。
And instead of a Ukrainian E, they added a Russian E.
他们添加了俄罗斯 E，而不是乌克兰 E。
So they've already renamed it.
所以他们已经重新命名了它。
Mariupol used to be Mariupol.
马里乌波尔曾经是马里乌波尔。
Now, it's Mariupol.
现在，是马里乌波尔。
Ilya told me he and his sister had been fighting about that.
伊利亚告诉我，他和他的妹妹一直在为此争吵。
His sister thought that when they got home, they should just make peace with the fact that Mariupol as they knew it was now over, that the Russians had won, that this was their new life.
他的姐姐认为，当他们回到家时，他们应该接受这样一个事实：马里乌波尔的事情已经结束了，俄罗斯人赢了，这就是他们的新生活。
Ilya refused to accept defeat.
伊利亚拒绝接受失败。
The Russians were the ones who destroyed the city.
俄罗斯人摧毁了这座城市。
He figured Ukrainians would keep on fighting.
他认为乌克兰人会继续战斗。
All in all, he had mixed feelings about returning.
总而言之，他对于回归的心情是复杂的。
I want to go, and I don't want to go, he's saying, 50% one way, 50% the other.
我想去，又不想去，他说，50% 是一侧，50% 是另一侧。
This is the thing he was trying to set straight for himself.
这就是他试图为自己设定的目标。
Was Mariupol still going to feel like home?
马里乌波尔还会有家的感觉吗？
Two days later, mid-August, Ilya texted me from the road.
两天后，八月中旬，伊利亚在路上给我发短信。
By the way, he wrote, we're already en route home.
顺便说一句，他写道，我们已经在回家的路上了。
I don't know when I'll be able to write to you again.
我不知道什么时候才能再次给你写信。
And then radio silence.
然后无线电静默。
I couldn't get a hold of Ilya or his mother.
我无法联系到伊利亚或他的母亲。
I stayed up into the morning hours scrolling through Ukrainian Telegram channels made for this exact reason.
我熬夜浏览乌克兰电报频道就是为了这个原因。
Had there been a bombing, a missile strike that I had missed?
难道我错过了一次轰炸、导弹袭击吗？
But then a couple days later, Ilya popped up on my screen.
但几天后，伊利亚突然出现在我的屏幕上。
He wrote to me of bad news.
他写信告诉我坏消息。
The border guards hadn't let his mom and sister into Ukraine because of a document issue.
由于文件问题，边防人员不允许他的妈妈和妹妹进入乌克兰。
So the family decided to split up.
于是一家人决定分手。
His mom and sister returned back to Warsaw while he and his dad continued to Mariupol.
他的母亲和妹妹返回华沙，而他和父亲则继续前往马里乌波尔。
And then a few days later, another text message came through.
几天后，又一条短信传来。
Ilya had made it.
伊利亚成功了。
He wrote me an update the way he always texted, in long, run-on sentences.
他用他一贯发短信的方式给我写了一条更新消息，用的是长而连续的句子。
Their apartment had light and water, though the internet was spotty, and there was no gas, but they'd bought an electric stove yesterday.
他们的公寓有灯有水，虽然网络不稳定，而且没有煤气，但他们昨天买了一个电炉。
So no more of that.
所以不再这样了。
On the first day back, he made sure to see his grandmother.
回来的第一天，他就一定要去见祖母。
They hugged and drank tea together, just like old times.
他们拥抱在一起，一起喝茶，一如往日。
He walked around the neighborhood with his dad.
他和父亲一起在附近散步。
He told me he was nervous about filming outside because the soldiers didn't like it when people did that.
他告诉我，他对在外面拍摄感到紧张，因为士兵们不喜欢人们这样做。
Even so, he insisted on sending me at least one video.
即便如此，他还是坚持至少给我发了一个视频。
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Valerie Kipnis Ilya's hand is shaky, as if he's trying to keep his phone hidden.
[俄语演讲] 瓦莱丽·基普尼斯·伊利亚 (Valerie Kipnis Ilya) 的手颤抖着，就好像他试图隐藏手机一样。
But I can still make out the image, a large collapsed building next to a bus stop, Ilya's his favorite supermarket.
但我仍然可以辨认出图像，公交车站旁边有一座倒塌的大建筑，这是伊利亚他最喜欢的超市。
The only thing left of it?
唯一剩下的东西是什么？
Its metal beams.
它的金属横梁。
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Valerie Kipnis Later, we talked on the phone.
[俄语演讲] Valerie Kipnis 后来，我们通了电话。
He told me, I lived in the city for 11 years, and I got used to certain things.
他告诉我，我在城里生活了11年，有些事情我已经习惯了。
And now, nothing really works like it used to.
而现在，一切都不像以前那样有效了。
It's all broken down, he said.
一切都崩溃了，他说。
But there are new houses being built.
但有新房子正在建造。
I mean, you hear shots being fired from the distance.
我的意思是，你听到远处有枪声。
They're demining a lot right now.
他们现在正在大量排雷。
And then today at 8:00, we heard machine gun rounds being fired.
然后今天 8:00，我们听到机关枪射击的声音。
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Valerie Kipnis Well, not from far away.
[俄语演讲] Valerie Kipnis 嗯，距离不远。
Nearby.
附近。
When he went to the cemetery with his dad to visit some family who had been killed during the war, he was shocked.
当他和父亲一起去墓地看望一些在战争中丧生的家人时，他感到震惊。
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Valerie Kipnis He told me, I went to the cemetery, and there were so many graves.
[俄语演讲] Valerie Kipnis 他告诉我，我去了墓地，那里有很多坟墓。
I can't even describe it to you.
我什至无法向你描述它。
You can't even count them.
你甚至无法数清它们。
It was so many.
太多了。
And this is only at one cemetery.
这只是在一个墓地。
We left some flowers, some candies, some cookies, a drink, and some cigarettes because my mom's cousin and her husband, they used to smoke.
我们留下了一些鲜花、一些糖果、一些饼干、一杯饮料和一些香烟，因为我妈妈的表弟和她的丈夫过去常常吸烟。
And so that's a tradition.
这是一个传统。
You just leave them each one cigarette.
你只要给他们每人留一支烟就可以了。
According to local officials, the Russian siege of Mariupol killed at least 22,000 people and maybe a lot more.
据当地官员称，俄罗斯对马里乌波尔的围攻造成至少 22,000 人死亡，甚至更多。
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Valerie Kipnis Ilya and I talked a lot over the past few weeks, and as time went on, I began to notice something in our calls.
[俄语演讲] 过去几周，瓦莱丽·基普尼斯·伊利亚 (Valerie Kipnis Ilya) 和我聊了很多，随着时间的推移，我开始注意到我们通话中的一些事情。
The things that once bothered him, the soldiers, the mines, his sister's attitude about the war, he started to describe them differently, like yes, lots of the city was a mess.
曾经困扰他的事情，士兵，地雷，他姐姐对战争的态度，他开始以不同的方式描述它们，就像是的，这座城市的很多地方都是一团糟。
But it didn't feel as bad as it had looked on his phone from Poland.
但感觉并不像他在波兰的手机上看到的那么糟糕。
He had light and electricity.
他有光和电。
And when I asked if he was still nervous about those mines on his walk to school, he said--
当我问他是否仍然对步行去学校时的那些地雷感到紧张时，他说——
--no, I've already been walking, and there's nothing there.
——不，我已经走了，那里什么也没有。
The Russian soldiers just told me where to walk and where not to walk, so I've been listening to them.
俄罗斯士兵只是告诉我哪里可以走，哪里不可以走，所以我一直在听他们的。
Ilya was now taking advice from the soldiers that occupied his city.
伊利亚现在正在听取占领他城市的士兵的建议。
I asked Ilya, are there lots of Russian soldiers there?
我问伊利亚，那里有很多俄罗斯士兵吗？
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Valerie Kipnis Yeah, and then there's Chechens.
[俄语演讲] Valerie Kipnis 是的，还有车臣人。
And what, they just walk around the city?
什么，他们只是在城市里散步？
I asked.
我问。
Yeah, they just walk around the city, to shops, to different places.
是的，他们只是在城市里散步，去商店，去不同的地方。
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] And how do they behave themselves?
[俄语演讲] 他们的行为举止如何？
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Valerie Kipnis Excellent.
[俄语演讲] Valerie Kipnis 非常好。
Polite.
有礼貌的。
Honestly, when the Chechens are here and the kids come up to them, they give you money so you can buy candy.
老实说，当车臣人在这里并且孩子们走到他们身边时，他们会给你钱，这样你就可以买糖果。
His mom told me the Chechens give him sodas and chips, anything the kids ask for.
他妈妈告诉我，车臣人给他苏打水和薯条，孩子们想要的任何东西。
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] When I asked Ilya if it was weird for him that there are Russian soldiers everywhere, he told me, I already got used to it.
[俄语演讲] 当我问伊利亚，到处都是俄罗斯士兵是否感到奇怪时，他告诉我，我已经习惯了。
You think they'll stay there forever or for now?
你认为他们会永远留在那里还是暂时？
[RUSSIAN SPEECH] Valerie Kipnis Forever.
[俄语演讲] 永远的瓦莱丽·基普尼斯。
Ilya told me he'd even made friends with some of the Russian and Chechen soldiers.
伊利亚告诉我，他甚至和一些俄罗斯和车臣士兵交了朋友。
It felt strange to hear him say that.
听到他这么说，感觉很奇怪。
He knows it was Russia that started all this.
他知道这一切都是俄罗斯挑起的。
But they're the ones in charge now.
但现在他们是负责人。
And he told me people get killed for being pro-Ukraine.
他告诉我，人们会因为亲乌克兰而被杀。
There are all kinds of things that don't make sense in Ilya's life right now.
现在伊利亚的生活中有各种各样的事情没有意义。
There are parts of town that are destroyed and parts that are fine.
城镇有的部分被毁，有的部分完好。
School's in session, but there are mines along the way.
学校正在上课，但沿途有地雷。
When you're living through a war, there's only so much you can set straight.
当你经历战争时，你能解决的事情就只有这么多。
You have to hold a lot of contradictions in your head at once.
你的脑子里必须同时容纳很多矛盾。
Ilya is getting pretty good at it.
Ilya 已经很擅长了。
Valerie Kipnis is one of the producers of our show.
瓦莱丽·基普尼斯是我们节目的制作人之一。
Ilya's mom and sister finally did make it to Mariupol and surprised the grandparents.
伊利亚的妈妈和姐姐终于到达了马里乌波尔，这让祖父母感到惊讶。
Ilya was there to film it.
伊利亚在那里拍摄。
This week, Russian President Vladimir Putin signed a decree that made four regions of Ukraine into part of Russia officially, including where Ilya is right now.
本周，俄罗斯总统弗拉基米尔·普京签署了一项法令，正式将乌克兰的四个地区纳入俄罗斯的一部分，其中包括伊利亚现在所在的地方。
The United Nations Secretary General said the move went, quote, "against everything the international community is meant to stand for."
联合国秘书长表示，此举“违背了国际社会应主张的一切”。
Act 2, Oh, What a Hangled Web We Weave.
第二幕，哦，我们编织的网多么悬而未决。
Quick heads up before we start the story that it mentions part of the male anatomy.
在我们开始讲故事之前，请先注意一下，它提到了男性解剖学的一部分。
Take that under advisement, pro and con.
无论赞成还是反对，请接受建议。
Decide what you're going to do.
决定你要做什么。
It is not what the story is about.
这不是故事的主题。
The story is about a creepy and dangerous creature that does all kinds of terrible things.
这个故事讲述了一种令人毛骨悚然且危险的生物，它会做各种可怕的事情。
It's also about somebody who takes issue with every word I just said about that creature.
这也是关于有人对我刚才所说的关于那个生物的每一句话都提出异议的人。
Lilly Sullivan met up with this person to hear her out.
莉莉·沙利文（Lilly Sullivan）会见了这个人，听她讲述。
This person is my friend, Kelsey Padgett.
这个人是我的朋友凯尔西·帕吉特。
And if you run into her at a dinner party or a bar, maybe you happen to be standing behind her in the security line at the airport, she might ask you this.
如果你在晚宴或酒吧遇到她，也许你在机场安检时恰好站在她身后，她可能会问你这个。
What do you know about black widow spiders?
关于黑寡妇蜘蛛你了解多少？
What do you know?
你知道什么？
OK.
好的。
I know that they are very poisonous.
我知道它们有毒。
They have a really bad bite, like, a bite that can kill you.
它们咬得很厉害，咬一口就能杀死你。
And I know that the female, after mating, kills the male and eats him.
我知道雌性在交配后会杀死雄性并将其吃掉。
Fantastic.
极好的。
That is exactly what most people know about black widow spiders.
这正是大多数人对黑寡妇蜘蛛的了解。
And you're totally wrong.
你完全错了。
And this is Kelsey's mission, to expose the lies about this spider being a wanton murderess, correct the record, and restore her good name.
而这就是凯尔西的使命，揭穿这只蜘蛛是大肆杀人的谎言，纠正记录，恢复她的名誉。
Kelsey used to work as a park ranger in New York, by the way.
顺便说一句，凯尔西曾经在纽约担任公园管理员。
She also used to report science stories.
她还曾经报道过科学故事。
And over the years, she's amassed an absurd amount of information about these spiders.
多年来，她收集了有关这些蜘蛛的大量信息。
So let me tell you.
那么让我告诉你。
I'll start with the black widow name, the idea that the black widow eats her husband or the spider they just mated with, that she is a murderer dressed all in black, mourning a husband that they just killed.
我将从黑寡妇这个名字开始，黑寡妇吃掉她的丈夫或他们刚刚交配的蜘蛛，她是一个穿着黑衣服的凶手，哀悼他们刚刚杀死的丈夫。
Kelsey says the female eating the male, OK, this has happened, but very rarely.
凯尔西说，雌性吃雄性，好吧，这种情况确实发生过，但很少见。
And it's barely a noticeable trait if you look around at what the rest of the spiders are doing.
如果你环顾四周其他蜘蛛在做什么，这几乎不是一个明显的特征。
Many species of baby spiders, which are called spiderlings, often eat their siblings right after hatching.
许多种类的小蜘蛛（称为小蜘蛛）经常在孵化后立即吃掉它们的兄弟姐妹。
And some species of spiderlings even eat their own mother after hatching.
有些种类的蜘蛛甚至在孵化后吃掉自己的母亲。
Ugh.
啊。
Kelsey Padgett And sexual cannibalism, which is eating your mate after he has done the deed with you, is very common in the spider world.
凯尔西·帕吉特（Kelsey Padgett） 性食人行为，即在你的伴侣与你做完事后吃掉你的伴侣，在蜘蛛世界中很常见。
Ugh.
啊。
Kelsey Padgett But you know who it's not common that much for is black widow spiders.
凯尔西·帕吉特 但你知道黑寡妇蜘蛛并不常见。
They only do this in captivity.
他们只有在圈养的情况下才会这样做。
It's practically never been seen in the wild in the Northern Hemisphere.
在北半球的野外几乎从未见过它。
Meanwhile, the male spider, he's no Mr. Rogers.
与此同时，雄性蜘蛛，他不是罗杰斯先生。
Check out what he does.
看看他做了什么。
So the male black widow will sometimes go around to the female's web and sort of clip off little parts of it so that she has no exit routes.
因此，雄性黑寡妇有时会绕过雌性的网，剪掉它的一小部分，这样她就没有退出路线了。
And then he will go up next to her and calmly caress her.
然后他会走到她身边，平静地爱抚她。
And then he throws a web of his own over her to then copulate with her.
然后他在她身上扔了一张自己的网，然后与她交配。
Ugh.
啊。
Kelsey Padgett And the scientists have called that web the bridal veil, which is so not what that should be called.
凯尔西·帕吉特（Kelsey Padgett）科学家们将这种网称为“新娘面纱”，但其实这不应该被称为“新娘面纱”。
Are you serious?
你是认真的？
Oh my god.
我的天啊。
Kelsey Padgett But it strikes me as a very weird behavior.
凯尔西·帕吉特 但我觉得这是一种非常奇怪的行为。
And if I were a person naming spiders and saw that sometimes the female ate the male after mating, but also that the male does this crazy thing and ties down the lady, basically, I might name the spider after that.
如果我是一个给蜘蛛命名的人，看到有时雌性在交配后吃掉雄性，而且雄性也会做这种疯狂的事情并束缚雌性，基本上，我可能会以此命名蜘蛛。
But why didn't they?
但他们为什么不这样做呢？
Because they were men, [LAUGHS] and they thought it was exceptional that the female killed the male.
因为他们是男人，[笑]他们认为雌性杀死雄性是很罕见的。
Oh my gosh.
天哪。
Can't have that.
不能有那个。
A lot of species of spiders do this bridal veil thing.
很多种类的蜘蛛都会做这种新娘面纱的事情。
One theory is the one Kelsey lays out, that the male is trapping the female.
凯尔西提出的一种理论是，雄性诱捕雌性。
There's another newer one too, which is more accepted by scientists now, but it's more seduction than a trap.
还有另一种较新的方法，现在更被科学家所接受，但它更多的是诱惑而不是陷阱。
As a scientist put it when they explained it to me, it's bondage.
正如一位科学家向我解释时所说的那样，这是束缚。
Yep.
是的。
Spiders do bondage.
蜘蛛会做束缚。
Myth number two, that her bite is fatal.
谣言之二，她的咬伤是致命的。
So from 1950 to 1959, the data we have says that there were 63 deaths in the US from black widow spiders.
因此，从 1950 年到 1959 年，我们掌握的数据显示，美国有 63 人死于黑寡妇蜘蛛。
Interestingly, most of the black widow bite victims back then seem to be male.
有趣的是，当时大多数被黑寡妇咬伤的受害者似乎都是男性。
In an older study, they were 80% male.
在一项较早的研究中，他们 80% 是男性。
Here's a theory as to why.
这是一个关于原因的理论。
So most of the reported black widow bites from this time happened in what were called outdoor privies, outhouses.
因此，从那时起，大多数报道的黑寡妇咬伤事件都发生在所谓的户外厕所、户外厕所。
So black widow spiders, they enjoy dark, low to the ground sort of places.
黑寡妇蜘蛛喜欢黑暗、低矮的地方。
They especially love to make their cobwebs between two objects.
他们特别喜欢在两个物体之间制作蜘蛛网。
And so because bugs like stinky places-- imagine flies, there's flies in outhouses-- that it makes a great food supply, right?
因此，因为虫子喜欢臭地方——想象一下苍蝇，外屋里有苍蝇——所以它可以提供大量的食物，对吗？
And to get to the stinky stuff, you got to go through the bowl.
为了得到那些臭东西，你必须穿过碗。
Right, right.
对，对。
Kelsey Padgett So putting your web there is excellent.
Kelsey Padgett 因此，将您的网络放在那里非常棒。
So imagine this.
所以想象一下。
It's the 1950s.
现在是 20 世纪 50 年代。
You're a dude.
你是个家伙。
You need to go number two.
你需要走第二位。
You make your way out to the outhouse.
你走出去外屋。
You sit down, and your junk hangles there.
你坐下来，你的垃圾就挂在那里。
And as it does, it hits the cobweb.
当它这样做时，它撞上了蜘蛛网。
And the usually non-aggressive black widow instinctually runs over and bites down on the new creature that has landed on its web.
通常不具有攻击性的黑寡妇会本能地跑过去咬住落在它网上的新生物。
Oh my god.
我的天啊。
That is kind of terrifying, though.
不过，这有点可怕。
Yeah.
是的。
There's not even-- you can't even imagine a better situation tailored to getting bit by this usually very non-aggressive spider.
你甚至无法想象比这更适合被这种通常不具攻击性的蜘蛛咬伤的情况。
They don't come after you.
他们不会来追你。
And the statistic that you saw, how many bites were on penises?
你看到的统计数据是，阴茎上有多少次被咬伤？
Oh my god.
我的天啊。
She thinks all these penis bites happening so regularly might be one of the reasons there were so many deaths back then.
她认为，所有这些阴茎咬伤事件如此频繁地发生可能是当时造成如此多死亡的原因之一。
The skin there is less thick, and there are lots of nerves there.
那里的皮肤不那么厚，而且那里有很多神经。
And this is a neurotoxin venom.
这是一种神经毒素毒液。
So--
所以——
Oh, oh, oh.
哦，哦，哦。
Kelsey Padgett Perhaps being bit on the genitals sends the venom going into your body in a faster or stronger way than, say, if you were bit on a callus on your foot.
凯尔西·帕吉特（Kelsey Padgett）也许，与被咬到脚上的老茧相比，被咬到生殖器会让毒液更快或更强烈地进入你的身体。
Anyway, the point is, once more people had indoor plumbing along with improved access to medical care, the numbers, which weren't that high to begin with, they've gone way down.
无论如何，重点是，一旦更多的人拥有室内管道并改善了获得医疗服务的机会，这个数字（一开始并没有那么高）已经大幅下降。
And in the last several decades, there's no record of anyone dying from a black widow spider-- no one.
在过去的几十年里，没有任何人死于黑寡妇蜘蛛的记录——没有人。
In fact, the black widow is usually a pretty shy spider.
事实上，黑寡妇通常是一只非常害羞的蜘蛛。
Scientists have even done tests where they poke and prod her, trying to elicit a bite.
科学家们甚至进行了测试，他们用戳戳的方式试图让她被咬。
And she turns to other defenses first, tries to run away, curls up into a little ball no bigger than a quarter.
她首先转向其他防御，试图逃跑，蜷缩成一个不超过四分之一的小球。
Sometimes she throws silk at the danger to try to escape.
有时她会向危险扔丝绸以试图逃脱。
The bite is her last resort.
咬人是她最后的手段。
So yeah.
所以是的。
I think that the world should know that they've been lied to and that the black widow spider is not that bad.
我认为全世界都应该知道他们被骗了，而且黑寡妇蜘蛛并没有那么糟糕。
And Kelsey has a proposal to set the record straight-- just change the spider's name, easy.
凯尔西提出了一项澄清事实的建议——只需更改蜘蛛的名字即可，很简单。
Get rid of the name that mires her in all this twisted lore she doesn't deserve.
摆脱让她陷入所有这些她不配的扭曲传说中的名字。
I think that's what it looks like, renaming her.
我想这就是它的样子，给她重命名。
Black widow spiders were not always called black widow spiders.
黑寡妇蜘蛛并不总是被称为黑寡妇蜘蛛。
They've had many different names.
他们有很多不同的名字。
Some of the names are the hourglass spider, the T-bar spider.
其中一些名字是沙漏蜘蛛、T 形蜘蛛。
The Miwok people, Indigenous to California, called the spider pokomoo.
加利福尼亚州的原住民米沃克人将蜘蛛称为“pokomoo”。
The shoe button spider.
鞋扣蜘蛛。
Lilly Sullivan So cute.
莉莉·沙利文好可爱啊
She looks like a button, after all, a little round one.
她看起来像一颗纽扣，毕竟是一个小圆的。
So I decided to test out this new name on the people I thought were the best suited to judge.
所以我决定在我认为最适合评判的人身上测试这个新名字。
It was like my whole chest was in a vice grip.
就好像我的整个胸部都被老虎钳抓住了。
I spoke with eight people who'd been bitten, talked to 11 others over email.
我与 8 名被咬伤的人进行了交谈，并通过电子邮件与另外 11 人进行了交谈。
Here are some of them.
以下是其中一些。
Imagine the worst cramp that you've ever had in your life.
想象一下您一生中经历过的最严重的痉挛。
Like a Charley horse in your leg, but that being my whole back.
就像你腿上的查理马一样，但那是我的整个背部。
Like a really bad Charley horse that doesn't stop and envelops in your whole chest, right?
就像一匹非常糟糕的查理马，不停地包裹着你的整个胸部，对吗？
I was twisting up my body, and I was holding onto the side panels of the vehicle and bracing myself when it was happening.
当事情发生时，我扭动着身体，抓住了车辆的侧板并支撑着自己。
And so weirdly enough, I wondered, is this what it feels like to go into labor?
奇怪的是，我想知道，这就是分娩的感觉吗？
Not everyone who's bit has a bad reaction like this.
并不是每个被咬的人都会有这样的不良反应。
And again, bites are very rare.
再说一遍，被咬的情况非常罕见。
And a lot of the time, they're mild.
很多时候，它们都很温和。
But when it's bad, it's bad.
但当情况不好的时候，那就很糟糕了。
So I ran Kelsey's idea by them.
所以我按照他们的思路执行了凯尔西的想法。
Do you think we should rename the black widow spider the shoe button spider?
你认为我们应该将黑寡妇蜘蛛重新命名为鞋扣蜘蛛吗？
13 people weighed in.
13人参与了衡量。
No one was into it.
没有人参与其中。
Oh my god.
我的天啊。
I do not-- I do not like that at all.
我不——我一点也不喜欢那样。
No offense to the people who named that the shoe button spider back in the old days, but that is a very lame name.
无意冒犯那些在过去将其命名为“鞋扣蜘蛛”的人，但这是一个非常蹩脚的名字。
This is Jenna.
这是珍娜。
She got bit eight years ago in a porta potty at Coachella.
八年前，她在科切拉音乐节的便盆里被咬了。
Have you ever seen a black widow spider?
你见过黑寡妇蜘蛛吗？
They look cool.
他们看起来很酷。
They are a spider you shouldn't mess with.
它们是你不应该惹恼的蜘蛛。
And they probably have a bad rap.
他们的名声可能很差。
But I do like black widow.
但我确实喜欢黑寡妇。
It gives it some power.
它赋予它一些力量。
And I think those spiders definitely have power.
我认为那些蜘蛛绝对有力量。
Someone else who'd been bit told me, honestly, I think black widow is an excellent name.
其他被咬过的人告诉我，老实说，我认为黑寡妇是一个很棒的名字。
And were I a spider, I would feel really cool with a name like that.
如果我是一只蜘蛛，我会觉得这样的名字真的很酷。
Lilly Sullivan is one of the producers of our show.
莉莉·沙利文是我们节目的制片人之一。
Kelsey Padgett is hosting an upcoming podcast all about big rivalries in history and gossipy, petty feuds.
凯尔西·帕吉特即将主持一个播客，内容涉及历史上的重大竞争以及八卦、小争执。
It comes out next month.
下个月就会出来。
Keep your eyes out for that.
请留意这一点。
Coming up, Democrats and Republicans in Congress are doing such a great job coming to thoughtful, bipartisan solutions to our nation's problems.
接下来，国会中的民主党人和共和党人将做出如此出色的工作，为我们国家的问题找到深思熟虑的、两党合作的解决方案。
Let's see what they do with UFOs.
让我们看看他们如何处理不明飞行物。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program, setting the record straight, stories of people who feel very strongly that they have to clarify what's true and what's false about something very important to them.
今天的节目澄清了人们的故事，他们强烈地感到他们必须澄清对他们来说非常重要的事情的真实性和虚假性。
We have arrived at Act 3 of our program, Act 3, U-F-No.
我们已经到了我们计划的第三幕，第三幕，U-F-No。
So far today, we've heard a bunch of people setting the record straight on something.
今天到目前为止，我们已经听到很多人在某些事情上澄清事实。
And now it is my pleasure to introduce our senior editor, David Kestenbaum, who's usually very measured.
现在我很高兴向大家介绍我们的高级编辑 David Kestenbaum，他通常非常谨慎。
There's something he wants to get off his chest.
有件事他想吐露心声。
The thing I'd like the record set straight on, UFOs are not real.
我想澄清的是，不明飞行物并不是真实的。
They are not aliens from other planets come to visit us.
他们不是从其他星球来拜访我们的外星人。
Yes, I know, the Pentagon recently announced a new program to study weird stuff pilots are seeing.
是的，我知道，五角大楼最近宣布了一项新计划来研究飞行员所看到的奇怪事物。
Yes, I know there was that super long New Yorker story.
是的，我知道《纽约客》有一篇超长的故事。
Or maybe you saw the 60 Minutes piece.
或者也许您看过 60 分钟的片段。
We have tackled many strange stories on 60 Minutes, but perhaps none like this.
我们在 60 分钟节目中处理过许多奇怪的故事，但也许没有像这样的。
It was pretty good TV.
这是一部相当不错的电视。
Bill So what you're telling me is that UFOs, Unidentified Flying Objects, are real.
比尔 那么你告诉我的是，UFO（不明飞行物）是真实存在的。
Bill, I think we're beyond that already.
比尔，我想我们已经超越了这个范围。
Unidentified does not mean alien spacecraft.
不明并不意味着外星飞船。
It means unidentified.
意思是身份不明。
Or maybe you saw these videos the Navy released.
或者也许您看过海军发布的这些视频。
There's a whole fleet of them.
他们有一整支舰队。
Look on the SA.
看看SA。
My gosh.
天哪。
They're all going against the wind.
都在逆风而行。
The wind's 120 knots to the west.
风速为 120 节，西风。
[INAUDIBLE].
[听不清]。
And even, even this guy.
甚至，甚至这个家伙。
Barack Obama What is true, and I'm actually being serious here--
巴拉克·奥巴马：这是真的，我实际上是认真的——
--President Obama.
——奥巴马总统。
Barack Obama --there's footage and records of objects in the skies that we don't know exactly what they are.
巴拉克·奥巴马——天空中有一些物体的镜头和记录，但我们不知道它们到底是什么。
We can't explain how they moved, their trajectory.
我们无法解释它们是如何移动的，它们的轨迹。
They did not have an easily explainable pattern.
他们没有一个容易解释的模式。
Ugh.
啊。
Particularly maddening are conversations I've had with people I know about this.
尤其令人抓狂的是我与认识的人就此进行的对话。
And midway through, I realized, oh, I have to be polite because it's clear they think this is real.
中途，我意识到，哦，我必须有礼貌，因为很明显他们认为这是真的。
No more polite.
不再有礼貌了。
I have reasons for thinking all this is bullshit-- science reasons.
我有理由认为这一切都是废话——科学原因。
For aliens to actually visit us, if they exist in the first place, they would either need to be insanely patient or be able to travel faster than the speed of light because the nearest stars are crazy far away.
对于外星人真正造访我们来说，如果他们一开始就存在，他们要么需要非常耐心，要么能够以比光速更快的速度旅行，因为最近的恒星离我们太远了。
I was a grad student in physics.
我是一名物理学研究生。
I worked on one of those giant particle accelerators.
我在其中一台巨型粒子加速器上工作。
And I can tell you, you can try to make those particles go as fast as you want.
我可以告诉你，你可以尝试让这些粒子以你想要的速度移动。
They get very close to the speed of light, but they do not go faster.
它们的速度非常接近光速，但速度并没有更快。
We got to 99.999954% of the speed of light.
我们达到了光速的 99.999954%。
You can double the amount of energy you're using, and it doesn't double the speed.
您可以将所使用的能量加倍，但速度不会加倍。
It just gets you a tiny bit closer to the speed of light.
它只会让你更接近光速。
The universe really does seem to have a speed limit.
宇宙似乎确实有速度限制。
That's what the equations tell us.
这就是方程告诉我们的。
I mean, maybe there is some way around it, but it really, really does not seem like it.
我的意思是，也许有一些办法可以解决这个问题，但实际上看起来确实不是这样。
And think about it for a second.
想一想。
In the '50s, it may be made sense that all the UFO photos were blurry and hard to decipher.
在 50 年代，所有 UFO 照片都是模糊且难以辨认的，这可能是有道理的。
But today, every single person with a smartphone has a super powerful camera in their pocket.
但如今，每个拥有智能手机的人的口袋里都装着一个超级强大的相机。
That's billions of cameras.
那是数十亿个相机。
If alien spacecraft are here, shouldn't we have better pictures?
如果外星飞船在这里，我们不应该拍出更好的照片吗？
And the fact that basically no scientists seem interested in this at all and prefer to dwell on, say, detailed questions of how solar systems form, it tells you something.
事实上，基本上没有科学家对此感兴趣，并且更喜欢沉迷于太阳系如何形成的详细问题，这告诉了你一些事情。
If any of these photos or radar blips or whatever really were alien craft, it would be the greatest discovery of all time.
如果这些照片或雷达信号或其他任何东西确实是外星飞船，那将是有史以来最伟大的发现。
I can't think of a font big enough for the front page.
我想不出足够大的字体适合首页。
But basically, every scientist in every university is sitting it out.
但基本上，每所大学的每位科学家都在袖手旁观。
As Neil deGrasse Tyson, the astrophysicist who runs the planetarium at the American Museum of Natural History, put it, he was talking about the people who believe these things are spaceships, quote, "The fact that you don't know what it is is not evidence that you know what it is, OK?
正如美国自然历史博物馆天文馆负责人尼尔·德格拉斯·泰森所说，他谈论的是那些相信这些东西是宇宙飞船的人，引用的话，“你不知道它是什么的事实并不能证明你知道它是什么，好吗？
You know why science exists?" he says.
你知道科学为何存在吗？”他说。
"Because the human sensory system sucks."
“因为人类的感觉系统很糟糕。”
Unfortunately, with scientists off doing, you know, science, there is almost no one left to try to set the record straight, no one to quote in those news stories saying, you know, I think that's just a weather balloon.
不幸的是，随着科学家们停止从事科学研究，几乎没有人试图澄清事实，没有人在那些新闻报道中引用说，你知道，我认为这只是一个气象气球。
If they do quote someone, it's often this guy, Mick West.
如果他们确实引用了某人的话，通常是这个人，米克·韦斯特。
I've looked at literally hundreds if not thousands of UFO cases because people send me them all the time, and there's always new ones coming up.
我看过数百甚至数千个不明飞行物案例，因为人们一直向我发送这些案例，而且总是有新的案例出现。
Mick runs a website called Metabunk, where he and others try to really run these things down.
米克（Mick）经营着一个名为 Metabunk 的网站，他和其他人试图在该网站上真正查明这些事情。
Sometimes they figure out the object in the photo or video was a plane by finding the actual plane from maps and flight records.
有时，他们通过从地图和飞行记录中找到实际的飞机来确定照片或视频中的物体是一架飞机。
Or one of my favorites, there was this photo of someone on a vacation took of these mysterious lights up in the sky over the water.
或者我最喜欢的一张照片是某人在度假时拍摄的水面上天空中这些神秘的灯光。
Mick thought it looked like a reflection off the window.
米克认为它看起来像是窗户上的倒影。
It was taken from inside.
这是从里面取出来的。
So he found the actual rental house based on the position of the mountains in the photo, called the homeowner, convinced her to take a photo from the same spot by the window, and confirmed, yes, a reflection of the living room lights.
于是，他根据照片中山的位置找到了实际出租的房子，打电话给房主，说服她在窗边的同一位置拍了一张照片，并确认，是的，客厅灯光的反射。
Most UFO cases are really, really simple and boring.
大多数不明飞行物案例都非常非常简单和无聊。
Occasionally, though, you get an interesting one.
不过，偶尔你也会遇到一些有趣的事情。
And the most interesting ones are the ones that you get from the government.
最有趣的是你从政府那里得到的。
I called Mick up earlier this year because something exciting was about to happen.
今年早些时候，我给米克打电话，因为即将发生一些令人兴奋的事情。
There was going to be a congressional hearing on UFOs, the first in 50 years, which meant finally, the experts were going to weigh in, on the record, in front of Congress.
国会将举行一场关于不明飞行物的听证会，这是 50 年来的第一次，这意味着专家们最终将在国会面前公开发表意见。
This stuff, unexplained things seen by pilots or on radar, is usually secret.
这些东西，即飞行员或雷达上看到的无法解释的东西，通常是秘密的。
But now, we were going to hear from the people actually looking into these things, presumably with the help of the smartest scientists.
但现在，我们将听到人们真正研究这些事情的声音，大概是在最聪明的科学家的帮助下。
I wanted them to set the record straight.
我希望他们澄清事实。
And in these partisan times when red and blue America seem to violently disagree about everything under the sun, this is one issue neither side has a stake in.
在这个党派之争的时代，红色和蓝色的美国似乎对阳光下的一切都存在严重分歧，这是一个双方都没有利害关系的问题。
Come on, America.
加油，美国。
Maybe we can agree on something.
也许我们可以在某些事情上达成一致。
I would like that.
我愿意。
I really would.
我真的愿意。
The morning of the hearing, Mick West and I got on a Zoom together to watch it live.
听证会当天早上，米克·韦斯特和我一起使用 Zoom 观看现场直播。
He's on the West Coast, so it was little before 6:00 AM his time.
他在西海岸，所以他的时间刚过早上 6:00。
We were waiting for it to start.
我们正在等待它开始。
It's going to be very interesting.
这将会非常有趣。
I suspect it's going to be a mixed bag.
我怀疑这将是一个混合包。
I mean, for me, for me, I think unless they have a scientist there testifying, it could be very hard for me to watch.
我的意思是，对我来说，对我来说，我认为除非他们有一位科学家在那里作证，否则我可能很难观看。
Yeah.
是的。
Well, I think what they're going to talk about is setting up the program and procedure.
嗯，我认为他们要讨论的是制定计划和程序。
Oh, they're not going to talk about the evidence?
哦，他们不会谈论证据吗？
They're not going to go over the actual--
他们不会讨论实际的——
They are.
他们是。
I think they are.
我认为他们是。
I heard this morning that this is new, that they may be sharing some video and talking about their analysis of the video, which, of course, is super interesting for me because I'm all about video analysis.
今天早上我听说这是新的，他们可能会分享一些视频并谈论他们对视频的分析，这当然对我来说非常有趣，因为我只关注视频分析。
The subcommittee will come to order without obje--
小组委员会将毫无异议地下令——
Big formal hearing room on Capitol Hill, a couple of large American flags in the back.
国会山的大型正式听证室，后面有几面巨大的美国国旗。
More than 50 years ago, the US government ended Project Blue Book.
50 多年前，美国政府终止了蓝皮书计划。
That's the chair of this House Intelligence subcommittee, Congressman Andre Carson, Democrat from Indiana.
他就是众议院情报小组委员会的主席、来自印第安纳州的民主党众议员安德烈·卡森。
It was kind of weird and also delightful to hear a discussion of UFOs wrapped up in the formalism of a congressional hearing.
在国会听证会的形式主义中听到对不明飞行物的讨论有点奇怪，但也很令人高兴。
It turns out, the government sorts through the question of whether we have been visited by aliens the same way it does any other problem.
事实证明，政府像处理其他问题一样解决我们是否被外星人造访的问题。
There's a task force, this one set up last November.
去年 11 月成立了一个特别工作组。
--called the Airborne Object Identification and Management Synchronization Group, or AIMSOG.
——称为机载物体识别和管理同步小组，或 AIMSOG。
[LAUGHS] So that's how you pronounce it.
[笑]所以这就是你的发音。
Today, we will bring that organization out of the shadows.
今天，我们将让该组织走出阴影。
Yes.
是的。
Bring it out of the shadows.
把它从阴影中带出来。
There were two very high-ranking officials there to testify and answer questions from the lawmakers, Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence and Security Ronald Moultrie, and Scott Bray, Deputy Director of Naval Intelligence.
有两名高级官员出席作证并回答立法者的问题，他们是负责情报和安全的国防部副部长罗纳德·莫尔特里和海军情报局副局长斯科特·布雷。
Bray laid out what the new task force was doing.
布雷阐述了新工作组正在做的事情。
They now have a formalized system for, say, pilots to report things they see and currently, a database of 400 incidents.
他们现在拥有一个正式的系统，供飞行员报告他们所看到的情况，并且目前有一个包含 400 起事件的数据库。
They're going through them, trying to figure out what they are, as I hoped, working with all kinds of smart people.
他们正在仔细研究它们，试图弄清楚它们是什么，正如我希望的那样，与各种聪明人一起工作。
--subject matter experts from a wide variety of fields, including physics, optics, metallurgy, meteorology.
——来自各个领域的主题专家，包括物理学、光学、冶金、气象学。
UFOs, by the way, have now been rebranded UAPs, Unidentified Aerial Phenomena, I think so pilots won't be embarrassed to report sightings.
顺便说一句，UFO 现在已更名为 UAP，即不明空中现象，我想这样飞行员报告目击事件就不会感到尴尬了。
The military does have real concerns.
军方确实有真正的担忧。
Incursions in our training ranges by unidentified objects represent serious hazards to safety of flight.
不明物体侵入我们的训练范围对飞行安全构成严重危害。
Bray said there are several categories of what these things could be, airborne clutter, like a balloon, atmospheric phenomena, some weather thing.
布雷说，这些东西可能有几类：空气中的杂波，比如气球、大气现象、一些天气现象。
They could be something of ours, maybe a drone, something from one of our adversaries, which might pose a national security threat, or one final category, a bin he called other, which, quote, "allows for the possibility of surprise and scientific discovery." He did not seem to want to say aliens.
它们可能是我们的东西，也许是一架无人机，也可能是我们对手的东西，这可能会对国家安全构成威胁，或者是最后一类，他称之为“其他”的垃圾箱，引用它的话，“允许出现意外和科学发现的可能性”。他似乎不想说外星人。
Then things got interesting.
然后事情变得有趣了。
Bray turned to a screen in the hearing room.
布雷转向听证室的屏幕。
In this video, US Navy personnel recorded what appears to be triangles, some flashing, recorded several years ago off the coast of the United States.
在这段视频中，美国海军人员记录了几年前在美国海岸附近记录的看似三角形的东西，其中一些闪烁。
This is a video that had been leaked a while ago but never explained.
这是一段不久前被泄露但从未解释过的视频。
It's wild-looking.
看起来很狂野。
The footage is green because it's shot with night vision goggles.
这段视频是绿色的，因为它是用夜视镜拍摄的。
And what you see are these very clear triangles.
你看到的是这些非常清晰的三角形。
They really appear to be some sort of triangular craft blinking.
它们确实看起来像是某种闪烁的三角形飞船。
Mick was not impressed.
米克没有留下深刻的印象。
[LAUGHS] This video is bullshit.
[笑]这个视频就是胡说八道。
This essentially is a camera artifact, so it's probably a plane.
这本质上是相机伪影，所以它可能是一架飞机。
A camera artifact.
拍照神器。
Mick claims they're not really triangle-shaped.
米克声称它们并不是真正的三角形。
He thinks it's a kind of optical illusion created by the camera itself.
他认为这是相机本身产生的一种视错觉。
Next, Bray shows a still image with another mysterious green triangle, just like the ones in the video.
接下来，布雷展示了一张带有另一个神秘绿色三角形的静态图像，就像视频中的一样。
Several years later and off a different coast, US Navy personnel again, through night vision goggles and an SLR camera, recorded this image.
几年后，在不同的海岸，美国海军人员再次通过夜视镜和单反相机记录了这张图像。
But this time, other US Navy assets also observed unmanned aerial systems nearby.
但这一次，美国海军的其他资产也观察到了附近的无人机系统。
Meaning drones or something like that.
意思是无人机或类似的东西。
Bray says they're what the camera was seeing.
布雷说，这就是摄像机所看到的。
The triangular appearance is a result of light passing through the night vision goggles and then being recorded by an SLR camera.
三角形的外观是光线穿过夜视镜然后被单反相机记录的结果。
How did you feel about that?
你对此有何感想？
He just showed the video, and it looked really bad, and then he actually explained it.
他只是展示了视频，看起来非常糟糕，然后他实际上解释了这一点。
Yeah, that's great.
是的，那太好了。
That's something-- I've been talking about that video for well over a year now.
就是这样——我已经谈论那个视频一年多了。
And right from the-- 10 seconds after the video was posted, I recognized what it was and posted that it was just a camera artifact.
视频发布 10 秒后，我就认出了它是什么，并发布说这只是相机伪影。
But no one in the government has said that.
但政府中没有人这么说过。
No, no one said that.
不，没有人这么说过。
And the person who leaked it has been vehemently insisting that there's actual pyramid-shaped craft flying around and that I'm completely wrong.
泄露消息的人一直强烈坚称确实有金字塔形的飞行器在周围飞行，而我完全错了。
But now Scott Bray has just explained that I was correct, which is great.
但现在斯科特·布雷刚刚解释说我是对的，这很棒。
Put that one to rest.
让那个人安息吧。
One record set straight, one unidentified flying object identified.
一项记录被刷新，一个不明飞行物被识别。
Scott Bray showed another video, which he said was more typical.
斯科特·布雷（Scott Bray）展示了另一个视频，他说这个视频更典型。
This was one Mick hadn't seen.
这是米克从未见过的。
It was new.
这是新的。
It hadn't been previously released.
它之前没有发布过。
--which shows an observation in real time.
——实时显示观察结果。
All right.
好的。
What is this?
这是什么？
David Kestenbaum This one is from an F-18.
David Kestenbaum 这是一架 F-18 飞机。
It's shot out the window with what seems like someone's phone.
它是用似乎是某人的手机从窗外拍摄的。
And for the tiniest fraction of a second, something flits by.
就在那一瞬间，有什么东西一闪而过。
It's there, and then it's gone.
它就在那里，然后就消失了。
There it was.
就在那里。
Mick West What was-- I didn't--
米克·韦斯特：什么是——我没有——
In many cases, that's all that a report may include.
在许多情况下，这就是报告可能包含的全部内容。
Dang it.
该死。
I didn't see it.
我没看到。
Show it again.
再展示一下。
Mick gets his wish.
米克实现了他的愿望。
Adam Schiff Mr. Bray, can you rerun that first image that looked like it was outside of a plane window?
Adam Schiff，布雷先生，您能重新运行第一张看起来像是在飞机窗外的图像吗？
Congressman Adam Schiff, Democrat from California, Chair of the House Intelligence Committee.
国会议员亚当·希夫（Adam Schiff），来自加利福尼亚州的民主党人，众议院情报委员会主席。
And if you wouldn't mind going up to the screen and tell us what we're seeing, explain what we should be looking at in that first image.
如果您不介意走到屏幕前告诉我们所看到的内容，请解释一下我们应该在第一张图片中看到的内容。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
David Kestenbaum It turns out the technical capability of the US military has its limits.
大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆 事实证明，美军的技术能力有其局限性。
They have a real hard time stopping the video at the exact frame where this thing flashes by.
他们很难将视频停在这个东西闪过的确切帧处。
They try for four minutes.
他们尝试了四分钟。
That's not the one.
不是那个。
Adam Schiff That's not the one.
亚当·希夫 不是那个人。
This is terrible video, a terrible example.
这是一个可怕的视频，一个可怕的例子。
It's almost certainly a balloon, airborne clutter.
几乎可以肯定这是一个气球，是空气中的杂物。
It's not demonstrating any advanced maneuvering or anything.
它没有展示任何先进的机动或任何东西。
What you see here is an aircraft that is operating in a US Navy training range that has observed a spherical object in that area.
您在这里看到的是一架在美国海军训练场运行的飞机，该飞机在该区域观察到了一个球形物体。
And as they fly by it, they take a video.
当他们飞过它时，他们拍摄了一段视频。
You see, it looks reflective in this video, somewhat reflective.
你看，它在这个视频中看起来是反光的，有点反光的。
Somewhat reflective because it's a mylar balloon.
有点反光，因为它是聚酯薄膜气球。
And it quickly passes by the cockpit of the aircraft.
而且它很快就经过了飞机的驾驶舱。
And is this one of the phenomena that we can't explain?
这是我们无法解释的现象之一吗？
I do not have an explanation for what this specific object is.
我没有解释这个特定对象是什么。
And is this one of the situations where-- that's the object that we're looking at right there?
这是我们正在观察的物体的情况之一吗？
Thank you.
谢谢。
And is this a situation where it was observed by the pilot, and it was also recorded by the aircraft's instruments?
而且这种情况是不是飞行员观察到的，飞机的仪器也记录下来的？
We'll talk about the multisensor part in a later session.
我们将在稍后的会议中讨论多传感器部分。
Later session means the behind closed doors part, where they go over all the classified stuff.
稍后的会议意味着闭门会议部分，他们将在其中审查所有机密内容。
Translation, they have other data, radar or some advanced sensing, that who knows, maybe gives them a pretty good idea of what this is or what it isn't.
换言之，他们有其他数据、雷达或一些先进的传感技术，谁知道，也许能让他们很好地了解这是什么或不是什么。
But because it's classified, they can't talk about it.
但因为它是机密，所以他们不能谈论它。
Not helpful.
没有帮助。
David Kestenbaum And then this happened.
大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆 然后这件事发生了。
Mike Gallagher, Republican from Wisconsin, asked a bunch of questions of Bray and also Undersecretary Moultrie.
来自威斯康星州的共和党人迈克·加拉格尔向布雷和莫尔特里副国务卿提出了一系列问题。
And he seems to be in prosecutor mode, like he's trying to get something important on the record.
他似乎处于检察官模式，就像他试图将一些重要的事情记录在案。
Basically, do you know of any other programs currently looking into UAPs?
基本上，您知道目前还有其他正在研究 UAP 的计划吗？
Answer, no. Any ones from the past decades we don't know about?
回答，不。过去几十年里有哪些我们不知道的事情吗？
No. Then this.
不，然后这个。
It's also been reported that there have been UAP observed and interacting with and flying over sensitive military facilities, particularly-- and not just ranges, but some facilities housing our strategic nuclear forces.
还有报道称，有人观察到无人机，与敏感军事设施互动并飞越敏感军事设施，特别是——不仅是射程，还包括我们战略核力量所在的一些设施。
One such incident allegedly occurred at Malmstrom Air Force Base, in which 10 of our nuclear ICBMs were rendered inoperable.
据称，马尔姆斯特罗姆空军基地发生了一起此类事件，导致我们的 10 枚洲际弹道导弹无法运行。
At the same time, a glowing red orb was observed overhead.
与此同时，头顶上方出现了一个发光的红色球体。
I'm not commenting on the accuracy of this.
我不评论这一点的准确性。
I'm saying--
我是说——
Do you have any comment on the accuracy of that report?
您对该报告的准确性有何评论？
Let me pass that to Mr. Bray.
让我把这个转告给布雷先生。
You've been looking at UAPs over the last three years.
过去三年来您一直在关注 UAP。
That data is not within the holdings of the UAP Task Force.
该数据不属于 UAP 特别工作组的掌握范围。
I have heard stories.
我听过故事。
I have not seen the official data on that.
我还没有看到这方面的官方数据。
Well, I would say-- I mean, it's a pretty high-profile incident.
嗯，我想说——我的意思是，这是一个非常引人注目的事件。
I don't claim to be an expert on this, but that's out there in the ether.
我并不声称自己是这方面的专家，但这已经是遥不可及的事情了。
You're the guys investigating it.
你们就是调查此事的人。
I mean, who else is doing it?
我的意思是，还有谁在做这件事？
If something was officially brought to our attention, we would look at it.
如果某件事正式引起我们的注意，我们会关注它。
There are many things that are out there in the ether that aren't officially brought to our attention.
有很多事情没有正式引起我们的注意。
So how would it have to be officially brought to your-- I'm bringing it to your attention.
那么如何才能将其正式提交给您——我正在提请您注意。
This is pretty official.
这很官方。
Sure.
当然。
So we'll go back and take a look at it.
那么我们就回去看看吧。
But generally, there is some authoritative figure that says there is an incident that occurred.
但一般来说，都会有一些权威人士说有事件发生。
We'd like you to look at this.
我们希望你看看这个。
Well, I don't claim to be an authoritative figure, but for what it's worth, I would like you to look into it, if for no other reason--
好吧，我并不自称是权威人物，但就其价值而言，如果没有其他原因，我希望您能够调查一下——
Now, there was something that needed explaining.
现在，有件事需要解释一下。
A red orb?
红色球体？
Nuclear ICBMs becoming inoperable?
核洲际弹道导弹无法运行？
I figured there must be data on that-- cell phone video, radar, computer records.
我想一定有相关数据——手机视频、雷达、计算机记录。
But Mick explained that there wouldn't be.
但米克解释说不会有。
This incident, it allegedly happened in the 1960s.
这起事件，据称发生在20世纪60年代。
We will recess this hearing and return in a closed session at noon.
我们将休会听证会，并在中午举行非公开会议。
Oh, there we go.
哦，我们开始了。
David Kestenbaum Then it was over, the first UFO hearing in Congress in 50 years.
David Kestenbaum 然后就结束了，这是 50 年来国会的第一次 UFO 听证会。
Mick and I had different reactions to the hearing.
米克和我对听证会有不同的反应。
He thought it went fine.
他认为一切顺利。
I thought this hearing was good in that we did get some new data out.
我认为这次听证会很好，因为我们确实得到了一些新数据。
I think it was fairly well-balanced.
我认为这是相当平衡的。
And they talked a lot about the process that they're going to set up.
他们谈论了很多关于他们将要建立的流程。
I was pretty frustrated.
我很沮丧。
I'd wanted someone to say, look, there is no reason to think any of these things are alien spacecraft.
我想让有人说，看，没有理由认为这些东西是外星飞船。
Or we do not have definitive evidence of anything that violates the laws of physics.
或者我们没有任何违反物理定律的明确证据。
Mick wanted that last one too, actually.
事实上，米克也想要最后一件。
We didn't get it.
我们没明白。
How do you feel about the unending nature of this?
您对这种无休无止的本质有何感想？
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
Everyone's going to walk away from every one of these hearings believing exactly whatever they want.
每个人都会在每次听证会结束时都相信他们想要的任何东西。
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
David Kestenbaum People who want to believe in aliens will say, look, we had a hearing.
大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆 想要相信外星人存在的人会说，看，我们举行了一次听证会。
This is real.
这是真的。
And people like you are going to say, look, they showed that video and actually explained what it was.
像你这样的人会说，看，他们展示了该视频并实际上解释了它是什么。
See?
看？
Yeah.
是的。
It never ends.
它永远不会结束。
But it's a topic that's impossible to end because there's always going to be unidentified flying objects.
但这是一个无法结束的话题，因为总会有不明飞行物。
This is a horrible thought that I hadn't really grappled with.
这是一个可怕的想法，但我并没有真正克服它。
There will always be blurry photos of things in the sky, probably more now that everyone has a cell phone with them all the time.
天空中的事物总是会出现模糊的照片，现在每个人都随身携带手机，可能更多。
So there really is only one way the record will ever get set straight, that we will get an answer to whether aliens are here on Earth.
因此，只有一种方法可以纠正记录，那就是我们可以得到外星人是否在地球上的答案。
And that's if we actually find them.
那就是我们是否真的找到了它们。
In other words, the believers can win.
换句话说，信徒能够获胜。
My side can't.
我这边不行
You can never prove aliens aren't here.
你永远无法证明外星人不在这里。
But I'm telling you, they're not.
但我告诉你，他们不是。
David Kestenbaum is our program's senior editor.
大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆 (David Kestenbaum) 是我们节目的高级编辑。
[MUSIC - "TELL THE TRUTH" BY JON BATISTE]
[音乐 - 乔恩·巴蒂斯特的《说实话》]
Credits Ira Glass Our program was produced today by Chris Benderev.
图片来源 Ira Glass 今天我们的节目由 Chris Benderev 制作。
People who put together today's program include Sean Cole, Michal Comite, Aviva DeKornfeld, Chana Joffe-Walt, Tobin Low, Stowe Nelson, Katherine Rae Mondo, Nadia Reiman, Marisa Robertson-Textor, Ryan Rumery, Charlotte Sleeper, Frances Swanson, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, Julie Whitaker, and Diane Wu.
今天节目的制作人包括 Sean Cole、Michal Comite、Aviva DeKornfeld、Chana Joffe-Walt、Tobin Low、Stowe Nelson、Katherine Rae Mondo、Nadia Reiman、Marisa Robertson-Textor、Ryan Rumery、Charlotte Sleeper、Frances Swanson、Christopher Swetala、Matt Tierney、Julie Whitaker 和 Diane Wu。
Our managing editor is Sarah Abdurrahman.
我们的总编辑是萨拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sarah Abdurrahman)。
Our senior editor is David Kestenbaum.
我们的高级编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。
Our executive editor is Emanuele Berry.
我们的执行编辑是 Emanuele Berry。
Special thanks today to Jackson Landers, Liz Hanes, Jill Cashen, Laura Spiri, Meg Freyermuth, Jenna Kagel, Katherine Perkins, and Dr. Catherine Scott, who is a scientist who helped us so much with the black widow story.
今天特别感谢 Jackson Landers、Liz Hanes、Jill Cashen、Laura Spiri、Meg Freyermuth、Jenna Kagel、Katherine Perkins 和 Catherine Scott 博士，她是一位科学家，为我们讲述黑寡妇的故事提供了很多帮助。
If you want to read more about black widow behavior and misinformation, check out Dr. Scott's blog, spiderbytes.org.
如果您想了解更多有关黑寡妇行为和错误信息的信息，请查看斯科特博士的博客spiderbytes.org。
That's spiderB-Y-T-E-S.org.
那是spiderB-Y-T-E-S.org。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。
You can stream our archive of over 750 episodes for absolutely free.
您可以完全免费地观看我们的 750 多集档案。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to a program's cofounder Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢该项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
Even though he's management, he decided he wanted to run for shop steward.
尽管他是管理层，但他决定竞选商店代表。
Always wanted to be part of the union.
一直想成为工会的一员。
Kind of a weird dream, but he says--
有点奇怪的梦，但他说——
I kind of wondered, is this what it feels like to go into labor?
我有点想知道，这就是临产的感觉吗？
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories for This American Life.
下周我们将为《美国生活》带来更多故事。
(SINGING) He said, tell it like it is.
（唱）他说，照实说吧。
Da-da-da-da-da.
哒哒哒哒哒。
Do it like [INAUDIBLE].
像[听不清]那样做。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。