78: How Bad Is Bad? - This American Life
You are using an outdated browser.
您正在使用过时的浏览器。
Please upgrade your browser or activate Google Chrome Frame to improve your experience.
请升级您的浏览器或激活 Google Chrome 浏览器内嵌框架以改善您的体验。
Sign up for a free Life Partners trial, and you can watch the video “A Night of Stories and Improv.”
注册免费试用《Life Partners》，您可以观看视频“故事与即兴表演之夜”。
00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #78 | October 3, 1997 78: How Bad Is Bad?
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 78 集 | 1997 年 10 月 3 日 78：坏到什么程度？
Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Act One: How Bad Is Stealing $800?
第一幕：偷 800 美元有多严重？
Ira Glass OK three boys aged 13, 15 and 16.
Ira Glass 同意三个年龄分别为 13、15 和 16 岁的男孩。
All three chose to appear with fake names on this radio program.
三人都选择以假名出现在这个广播节目中。
And the fake names they chose, ready, K-Rad, Mr. Wares, and Fred.
他们选择了假名字，准备好了，K-Rad，韦尔斯先生和弗雷德。
Those first two names come out of the world of computer hacking and software piracy.
前两个名字来自计算机黑客和软件盗版的世界。
It's Mr. Wares.
这是威尔斯先生。
That's Wares, as in wares, as in softwares, as in illegal softwares, pirated softwares.
这就是商品，如商品、软件、非法软件、盗版软件。
And as for Fred?
至于弗雷德？
Why Fred?
为什么是弗雷德？
For no reason, man.
没有任何理由，伙计。
There's gotta be someone else named Fred out there.
那里一定还有一个叫弗雷德的人。
Anonymity was important given the kinds of things we were discussing, namely credit card fraud, computer hacking, and the nature of hell.
考虑到我们正在讨论的各种事情，即信用卡欺诈、计算机黑客攻击和地狱的本质，匿名非常重要。
Well, from WBEZ in Chicago and Public Radio International, it's This American Life.
好吧，这是来自芝加哥 WBEZ 和国际公共广播电台的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program we choose some theme, bring you a variety of different kinds of stories on that theme.
每周我们的节目都会选择一些主题，为您带来有关该主题的各种不同类型的故事。
Today on our program, how bad is bad enough to count?
今天我们的节目中，到底有多糟糕才算是糟糕呢？
Act One, How Bad is Stealing $800?
第一幕，偷 800 美元有多严重？
Act Two, a little radio experiment.
第二幕，一个小小的无线电实验。
We're all going to put on the lab coats and need protective goggles and hope you do the same.
我们都会穿上实验室外套并需要护目镜，希望您也这样做。
Act Three, How Bad is This Relationship?
第三幕，这种关系有多糟糕？
Act Four, How Bad is This Movie?
第四幕，这部电影有多糟糕？
We teach you a simple home test that anybody can do to determine if a movie is actually good or actually bad.
我们教您一个简单的家庭测试，任何人都可以做来确定电影是好是坏。
Act Five, Creating Your Own Moral Code, the story of a teenager with the power to shut down your phone line or anyone else's, and how he decided to wield his power.
第五幕，创建你自己的道德准则，讲述了一个有权关闭你或其他人的电话线的青少年的故事，以及他如何决定运用他的权力。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One.
第一幕。
So K-Rad, Mr. Wares, and Fred were trying to be criminals, but they were not too successful at it.
因此，K-Rad、韦尔斯先生和弗雷德试图成为罪犯，但他们并没有太成功。
They were in New York for a hacker's convention.
他们在纽约参加一个黑客大会。
Between sessions, I followed them to lunch at a McDonald's on Times Square.
在会议间隙，我跟随他们去时代广场的一家麦当劳吃午餐。
At first, Fred was going to pay for Mr. Wares and K-Rad.
起初，弗雷德打算支付韦尔斯先生和 K-Rad 的费用。
What do you guys want?
你们想要什么？
K-rad I want a number one meal.
K-rad 我想要一顿第一餐。
But Fred wasn't used to the downtown prices.
但弗雷德不习惯市中心的物价。
Oh my god, that's $5 man.
天哪，那可是5美元啊。
You guys are chipping in.
你们正在插手。
I can't pay for this.
我付不起这个钱。
I think it's safe to say that one sign that your criminal career is not going as well as you might want it to is if you have to worry about the prices at McDonald's.
我认为可以肯定地说，如果您不得不担心麦当劳的价格，则表明您的犯罪生涯进展不顺利的一个迹象是。
But K-Rad, Mr. Wares, and Fred were involved in very low level types of crimes.
但 K-Rad、Wares 先生和 Fred 参与的犯罪程度非常低。
All the times involved computers.
所有的时代都与计算机有关。
They pirated software.
他们盗版软件。
They scammed free CD-Rom games.
他们诈骗了免费的 CD-ROM 游戏。
They cheated one of the big online computer services out of a few hundred dollars in online time.
他们从一家大型在线计算机服务公司骗取了数百美元的在线时间。
All in all, they didn't steal very much, and they didn't steal very effectively, but stealing was the ideal.
总而言之，他们偷窃的次数并不多，偷窃的效率也不是很高，但是偷窃已经是最理想的了。
Here's a typical one of their scams.
这是他们的一个典型骗局。
They called people at random and tried to get a calling card number or a credit card number out of them.
他们随机给人们打电话，试图从他们那里获取电话卡号码或信用卡号码。
Basically the way it works is this.
基本上它的工作方式是这样的。
You call up somebody.
你打电话给某人。
You say, "This is the AT&T operator." The whole point is you have to sound like you're not calling somebody up with the intention of getting them.
您说：“这是 AT&T 运营商。”重点是你必须听起来像是你打电话给某人并不是为了联系他们。
You have to sound like you've been sitting in this chair for 10 hours, and you want to go home.
你必须听起来像是你已经在这把椅子上坐了 10 个小时，并且你想回家。
So you have to go, "This is the AT&T operator.
所以你必须说：“这是 AT&T 运营商。
I have a collect call for Paul.
我有一个对方付费电话要打给保罗。
Will you accept charges sir?" "Yeah, I'll accept charges." "All right, hold one one second." Then you tap on the keyboard.
先生，您愿意接受指控吗？” “是的，我会接受指控。” “好吧，等一等。”然后你点击键盘。
You say, "I'm sorry, you seem to have a restriction on your phone line.
您说：“抱歉，您的电话线路似乎受到限制。
You can't accept collect calls to this line." And then they yell, and they go, "What do you mean I can't accept collect calls to my line.
您无法接听此线路的对方付费电话。”然后他们大喊大叫，然后说：“你的意思是我不能接听对方付费电话。
I've been getting collect calls to this line for 20 years."
20 年来我一直接到这条线路的对方付费电话。”
And then you have to go, "Sir, there's nothing I can do about it.
然后你必须说：“先生，我对此无能为力。
My computer says you can't receive a collect call on this line.
我的计算机显示您无法在此线路上接听对方付费电话。
Would you like to try an alternate billing method?" And then they go, "What do you mean, alternate billing method?" "Well, you can bill it to your calling card or a major credit card." In which case, they'll proceed to either give you a calling card or a major credit card.
您想尝试其他计费方式吗？”然后他们问道：“替代计费方式是什么意思？” “嗯，你可以通过你的电话卡或主要信用卡来记账。”在这种情况下，他们会继续给您一张电话卡或一张主要信用卡。
And that of course is the idea behind the whole thing, to end up with a calling card number or a credit card number that they can use themselves.
当然，这就是整个事情背后的想法，最终得到一个他们可以自己使用的电话卡号码或信用卡号码。
And, as you may suspect by now, there's just one problem with this little scam.
而且，正如您现在可能怀疑的那样，这个小骗局只有一个问题。
That is, it does't work.
也就是说，它不起作用。
The reason it doesn't work is because a lot we had start yelling and saying, "What do you mean you can't bill it to my line.
它不起作用的原因是因为我们很多人开始大喊大叫并说：“你的意思是你不能将其记入我的线路。
I want--"
我想要——”
Because then they'll just say, oh, this is too much trouble.
因为那样他们就会说，哦，这太麻烦了。
Forget it.
忘了它。
I won't accept a collect call.
我不会接听对方付费电话。
The other scams these guys run don't do much better.
这些人实施的其他骗局也好不到哪儿去。
They tried to hack their way into the mainframe system of a big computer retailer, but were caught and stopped before they got very far.
他们试图侵入一家大型计算机零售商的主机系统，但在他们走得很远之前就被抓住并阻止了。
They are such unaccomplished computer hackers that Fred himself was actually the victim of a hacker, twice.
他们是如此不成功的计算机黑客，以至于弗雷德本人实际上两次成为黑客的受害者。
Somebody broke into his account on one computer bulletin board and then used his account and his electronic mail to visit some of the nether regions of the net.
有人在一台计算机公告板上侵入了他的帐户，然后使用他的帐户和电子邮件访问了网络的一些下部区域。
Remember, you talked to the guy on IRC.
请记住，您与 IRC 上的那个人交谈过。
There was this weird guy.
有一个奇怪的人。
This guy was going on all these sex channels, and he was wrecking my name and stuff.
这个家伙在所有这些色情频道上播出，他正在毁掉我的名字和东西。
It was awful.
太糟糕了。
You can't get pissed at him.
你不能对他生气。
I wouldn't get pissed at him because that would be entirely hypocritical.
我不会生他的气，因为那完全是虚伪的。
I've said that if anybody ever steals one of my credit cards, or ever hacks into my account or computer system, I will not care, and I will be perfectly allowable to that.
我说过，如果有人偷了我的一张信用卡，或者侵入了我的帐户或计算机系统，我不会在意，而且我会完全允许这样做。
To go and say, "I can't believe it.
去说：“我简直不敢相信。
Somebody took my credit card."
有人拿走了我的信用卡。”
Well, so what if I did it to everyone else.
好吧，如果我对其他人都这样做又如何呢？
I'm perfectly willing to let someone do that to me.
我完全愿意让别人对我这样做。
Over the summer was when they really started to get serious.
整个夏天是他们真正开始认真起来的时候。
Mostly it was what they call carding, getting other people's credit card numbers and then buying stuff on their credit cards.
大多数情况下，这就是他们所说的刷卡，获取其他人的信用卡号码，然后用他们的信用卡买东西。
They met this adult who knew all about carding and who showed them some tricks.
他们遇到了这个大人，他对打牌一无所知，并向他们展示了一些技巧。
K-Rad and Fred ordered $1,600 in computer merchandise on somebody else's credit card, had it delivered to a neutral address, picked it up, sold half of the stuff for cash, kept the rest.
K-Rad 和 Fred 用别人的信用卡订购了价值 1,600 美元的电脑商品，将其运送到一个中性地址，然后提货，将一半的商品出售为现金，剩下的保留下来。
Now one thing that's peculiar about this story is that these are rich kids.
这个故事的奇特之处在于这些都是有钱人的孩子。
K-Rad and Fred live in a wealthy, upstate community.
K-Rad 和 Fred 住在北部一个富裕的社区。
They attend one of the most expensive, prestigious private schools in the country.
他们就读于该国最昂贵、最负盛名的私立学校之一。
But they steal.
但他们偷窃。
Fred believes he has no choice.
弗雷德认为他别无选择。
He wanted to get all the things the other kids at private school had, a microwave, a stereo.
他想要得到私立学校其他孩子拥有的所有东西，微波炉、立体声音响。
He just wanted to be the same as everybody else.
他只是想和其他人一样。
A skinny, young-looking 15, he is perpetually strapped for cash.
他 15 岁，骨瘦如柴，看上去很年轻，但总是缺钱。
He said his parents could not help him much with money right now because they'd just gone a half million dollars in debt buying a house.
他说，他的父母现在在金钱方面无法帮助他太多，因为他们刚刚借了五十万美元买了一套房子。
At one point, to get some cash, he sold the computer his parents had given him for school without ever telling them.
有一次，为了赚点钱，他在没有告诉父母的情况下卖掉了父母送给他上学的电脑。
He wanted to replace the computer as quickly as possible with the help of a stranger's credit card.
他想借助陌生人的信用卡尽快更换电脑。
I'm also pretty good at shoplifting, but my whole thing on that is it I will not steal anything if I have the money for it.
我也很擅长入店行窃，但我的全部心愿就是，如果我有钱的话，我不会偷任何东西。
And a lot of times, the store at my school, like the grill, I steal from that a lot.
很多时候，我在学校的商店里偷了很多东西，比如烧烤店。
But I also give them $10 for no reason if I have the money because I feel bad about what I've stolen.
但如果我有钱的话，我也会无缘无故地给他们 10 美元，因为我对自己偷的东西感到难过。
And if I ever get the money so I didn't have to do this [BLEEP] anymore, then I'm not going to do it.
如果我得到了钱，那么我就不必再这样做了[BLEEP]，那么我就不会这样做了。
What's most striking about this is how Fred and the other boys, I think, really want to convince themselves that they are good, that they really do not harm anybody with what they're doing.
我认为，最引人注目的是弗雷德和其他男孩真的想说服自己，他们是好人，他们所做的事情确实不会伤害任何人。
Or if it does harm someone what they're doing, there's the reassuring thought that someday, somehow, they might make it up to the injured party.
或者，如果他们正在做的事情确实伤害了某人，那么他们就会有一种令人安心的想法：有一天，他们可能会以某种方式补偿受伤的一方。
As noble as this sounds, if I ever-- this is one thing that I absolutely guarantee that sounds like the biggest load of crap anyone could ever say.
尽管这听起来很崇高，但如果我曾经——我绝对保证这听起来像是任何人都可以说的最大的废话。
But if I am ever--
但如果我曾经——
We believe in you.
我们相信你。
K-rad No, no one should believe me.
K-rad 不，没有人应该相信我。
This is the biggest, I'm really good inside.
这是最大的，我里面真的很好。
If I ever find myself-- and I've made this vow to myself-- in a good enough financial situation, I will repay everything I have ever done now.
如果我发现自己——我已经向自己发誓——处于足够好的财务状况，我将回报我现在所做的一切。
I mean if I find myself making $2 million a year, I will send a $10,000 check to the company which I stole calling cards from.
我的意思是，如果我发现自己每年赚 200 万美元，我就会向我偷窃电话卡的公司寄一张 10,000 美元的支票。
That is something I definitely want to do if I'm in the financial situation to do it.
如果我有经济能力的话，这是我绝对想做的事情。
K-Rad believes that the $1,600 they charged to a stranger's Visa card was a victimless crime, that the credit card owner would call Visa and have the charge removed from his bill.
K-Rad 认为，他们从陌生人的 Visa 卡上收取的 1,600 美元是无受害人犯罪，信用卡持有人会致电 Visa 并从他的账单中删除这笔费用。
And that Visa figures a certain amount of fraud is just the cost of doing business.
Visa 认为一定数量的欺诈行为只是开展业务的成本。
One thing that I've always said in all of my doing is that I will never ever do something that will severely hurt an individual person, OK.
我在所做的一切事情中总是说的一件事是，我永远不会做会严重伤害个人的事情，好吧。
So, for example, if it involves-- I would never mug someone.
所以，举例来说，如果涉及到——我绝不会抢劫某人。
I would never beat someone up for money.
我绝不会为了钱而殴打别人。
I'd never shoplift.
我绝不会去商店行窃。
Well, maybe I-- no, I wouldn't shoplift because that is hurting an individual person.
好吧，也许我——不，我不会去商店行窃，因为这会伤害个人。
I'm just going to stop the tape right here.
我要在这里停止录像。
This is just this amazing moment that I love captured on tape.
这就是我喜欢用录像带捕捉到的令人惊叹的时刻。
He is struggling over this so much that you could actually hear him figure out his position on this as he speaks.
他对此非常挣扎，以至于你实际上可以听到他在说话时弄清楚了他在这件事上的立场。
Let me play this for you again.
让我再给你播放一下这个。
I'd never shoplift.
我绝不会去商店行窃。
Well, maybe I-- no, I wouldn't shoplift because that is hurting the individual person.
好吧，也许我——不，我不会去商店行窃，因为这会伤害个人。
We headed of the McDonald's and back to the hotel where the computer hackers conventions was taking place.
我们离开麦当劳，回到举办计算机黑客大会的酒店。
Without any prompting from me, Fred started talking again about this notion that he was only stealing because he absolutely had to.
没有得到我的任何提示，弗雷德就再次开始谈论他偷窃只是因为他绝对必须这样做的想法。
I go to boarding school, and I don't have any money or anything.
我去寄宿学校，我没有钱，什么也没有。
And I get really hungry and stuff.
我真的很饿。
I have a fast metabolism.
我的新陈代谢很快。
And seriously, I starve.
说真的，我饿死了。
And I lost 10 pounds in one week, and that's not good for someone who's really skinny like I am.
我在一周内减掉了 10 磅，这对于像我这样非常瘦的人来说可不是一件好事。
And then a lot of it is just stuff I want.
然后很多都是我想要的东西。
And yeah, I just really want to stress that in other ways, we're not bad people.
是的，我只是想强调，在其他方面，我们不是坏人。
We don't go around trying to screw off people in any way we can because we're not at all.
我们不会想方设法地想尽一切办法来搞垮别人，因为我们根本就不是。
I mean I do social work.
我的意思是我做社会工作。
I tutor kids.
我辅导孩子们。
I do a lot of stuff which isn't necessarily evil and is more good.
我做了很多事情，这些事情不一定是邪恶的，而且是更好的。
But sometimes, it's just like, I don't know man, I like doing it.
但有时，就像，我不认识，伙计，我喜欢这样做。
I can't explain it.
我无法解释。
Well, talk about that part of it.
嗯，说说那部分吧。
What is the thrill of doing it?
做这件事有什么快感？
That was the reason I started carding, the thrill of going-- we went in there.
这就是我开始打卡的原因，我们进去的兴奋感。
It was like Mission Impossible .
这就像不可能的任务。
We went in.
我们进去了。
We had gloves on and stuff and we picked it up.
我们戴上手套和其他东西，然后把它捡了起来。
We had it all worked out.
我们已经把一切都解决了。
We were connected.
我们是有联系的。
We had lookouts and stuff.
我们有瞭望台之类的东西。
And it's just a lot of fun.
这很有趣。
You're doing stuff that is not exactly legal, not legal all, and it's fun.
你所做的事情并不完全合法，也不完全合法，但这很有趣。
By this point, we were back in the hotel lobby.
此时，我们已回到酒店大堂。
We took the elevators up to the hackers convention.
我们乘电梯去了黑客大会。
K-Rad said that real hackers don't do what he and Fred had done.
K-Rad 表示，真正的黑客不会做他和 Fred 所做的事情。
Real hackers don't use their skills for personal gain.
真正的黑客不会利用他们的技能来谋取个人利益。
They don't steal credit card numbers.
他们不会窃取信用卡号码。
They don't defraud people.
他们不欺骗人。
Real hackers, he said, break into computers just to see if they can do it.
他说，真正的黑客侵入计算机只是为了看看他们是否能做到这一点。
We moved to a corner of the hallway where we wouldn't be overheard by the real hackers.
我们搬到了走廊的一个角落，在那里我们不会被真正的黑客偷听。
K-Rad said that they'd never really talked with anybody about their illegal activities this much ever before.
K-Rad 表示，他们以前从未与任何人如此频繁地谈论过他们的非法活动。
The most thing I'm worried about is I'm actually starting, for the first time, to say this all out loud, everything I've done.
我最担心的是我第一次真正开始大声说出这一切，我所做的一切。
And suddenly, it doesn't sound as hacker much anymore.
突然之间，它听起来不再像黑客了。
And I've known that, ever since I moved into doing maybe some credit card thing.
自从我开始从事信用卡业务以来，我就知道这一点。
That's why I'm, in fact, even considering giving up on doing all the carding and stuff like that.
事实上，这就是为什么我什至考虑放弃做所有的梳理和类似的事情。
Seriously I am.
说真的，我是。
Fred shot him a look.
弗雷德看了他一眼。
If he were serious and they did quit carding, Fred would never get a computer to replace his old one.
如果他是认真的，而且他们真的不再打卡了，弗雷德就永远不会得到一台电脑来代替他的旧电脑。
What about my computer?
我的电脑呢？
K-rad What?
K-rad 什么？
Your computer will come first.
您的计算机将首先出现。
Jesus Christ, man.
耶稣基督，伙计。
I'm going to get a gun and shoot you.
我要拿起枪来射杀你。
The thing about a bad conscience is that it splits you in half.
良心不好的问题在于它会把你分成两半。
Fred said that he had two different modes, that was the word he used, modes.
弗雷德说他有两种不同的模式，这就是他用的词，模式。
Sometimes he would think about what he and K-Rad were doing, and he knew it was wrong.
有时他会想到他和 K-Rad 正在做的事情，他知道这是错误的。
But mostly, he tried not to think about it.
但最重要的是，他尽量不去想它。
I try to limit that as much as possible because I generally feel crappy when I do that.
我尝试尽可能地限制这种情况，因为当我这样做时，我通常会感觉很糟糕。
And the rest of the time, I try to forget that I do that and just carry on with my basic life.
其余时间，我试着忘记我这样做，继续我的基本生活。
And a lot of times when I think about it, my worst fear is that I'm going to end up going to hell for doing this.
很多时候，当我想到这件事时，我最担心的是我最终会因为这样做而下地狱。
And that's my worst fear.
这是我最担心的。
Do you believe in hell?
你相信有地狱吗？
Fred Yeah, I do.
弗雷德 是的，我愿意。
And you think you can go to hell for getting a computer on somebody else's credit card?
你认为你可以因为用别人的信用卡买一台电脑而下地狱吗？
I don't know.
我不知道。
I hope not.
我希望不会。
I really hope not.
我真的希望不会。
It's always been my biggest fear.
这一直是我最大的恐惧。
That's why I'm afraid of dying.
这就是为什么我害怕死亡。
I'm afraid if there's something I've done which is just the straw on the camel's back, that's going to be what's going to do it.
我担心，如果我所做的某件事只是骆驼背上的最后一根稻草，那它就会变成这样。
How big is this worry?
这个担忧有多大？
Will this keep you up at night?
这会让你彻夜难眠吗？
Yeah, maybe for a couple minutes.
是的，也许几分钟。
And then I just put it out of my mind.
然后我就把它抛到了脑后。
His share of the carding profits was $800.
他的梳理利润分成是 800 美元。
I told him that from an adult's perspective, it did not seem like a lot of money.
我告诉他，从一个成年人的角度来看，这似乎并不是很多钱。
I didn't think you could do eternity in hell for just $800.
我没想到只要 800 美元就可以在地狱里永生。
And as soon as I said this, I regretted it.
而当我说出这句话的时候，我就后悔了。
Fred's body language changed completely.
弗雷德的肢体语言完全改变了。
It was just this moment.
就在这一刻。
It was like I was calling him a little kid, saying he was ridiculous to worry about something so small.
就好像我在叫他小孩子，说他为这么小事担心是可笑的。
And he was offended and got quieter and just withdrew.
他感到被冒犯了，变得安静了，然后就退出了。
Then Mr. Wares spoke up.
然后韦尔斯先生开口了。
He said that maybe by adult standards this wasn't much money, but to them, it was a lot of money.
他说，也许按照成年人的标准，这不算多少钱，但对他们来说，却是很多钱了。
It was plenty enough to count.
已经足够数了。
When is hell a possibility?
什么时候地狱才有可能？
Whenever you think it is, it is.
每当你认为它是的时候，它就是。
More on this when our program continues.
当我们的计划继续进行时，我们会详细介绍这一点。
Act Two, Golden Peacock.
第二幕，金孔雀。
For this act, we thought we'd try a little radio experiment.
对于这个行为，我们想尝试一下无线电实验。
I told a Chicago playwright named Jeff Dorchen about the three boys in our first story today, what they said about sin and their own relative badness in this world.
我向一位名叫杰夫·多尔钦 (Jeff Dorchen) 的芝加哥剧作家讲述了我们今天第一个故事中的三个男孩，他们对罪恶以及他们自己在这个世界上的相对邪恶的看法。
And he created a very brief radio play picking up where they left off.
他创作了一部非常简短的广播剧，从他们中断的地方继续。
Here's what he came up with.
这就是他的想法。
Three tens.
三个十。
Peter Full house, aces and eights.
彼得 满堂彩，A 和 8。
What do you got, kid?
孩子，你有什么？
Child Four diamonds.
儿童 四颗钻石。
You got nothing.
你什么也没有。
Peter See if you had some where the numbers matched, or if they were in order and there were five of them, but that, what you have there, that's nothing.
彼得 看看你是否有一些数字匹配的地方，或者它们是否按顺序排列并且有五个，但是，你那里的东西，那什么都不是。
My grandpa used to call that a kangaroo straight.
我爷爷曾经管它叫“袋鼠直”。
Klondike wins the game.
克朗代克赢得了比赛。
Caleb No, Klondike doesn't win the game.
迦勒 不，克朗代克没有赢得比赛。
Peter wins the game.
彼得赢得了比赛。
Full house wins.
满堂彩获胜。
I hate you, Peter.
我恨你，彼得。
Peter I don't blame you.
彼得，我不怪你。
[WAILING GRANDMOTHER] Child Grandmother, be careful.
[哭喊的祖母]孩子祖母，小心点。
Grazie.
谢谢。
He has sinned.
他犯了罪。
Peter Yes I have.
彼得 是的，我有。
How did you know?
你怎么知道的？
Your eyes, they are the eyes of an accused man, furtive, alert.
你的眼睛，是一个被指控的人的眼睛，鬼鬼祟祟的，警觉的。
The eyes of a nervous beast who, once a lover of gambols and cheeks and standard metals, has been driven to nocturnal skulking by the pursuit of a relentless predator.
一只神经质的野兽的眼睛，曾经是嬉戏、脸颊和标准金属的爱好者，但由于无情的掠食者的追捕而被迫在夜间潜伏。
Call.
称呼。
Peter Call.
彼得·卡尔.
Caleb, do you believe in sin?
迦勒，你相信罪吗？
How can you believe in damnation but not sin?
你怎么能相信诅咒而不相信罪呢？
Predestiny.
命运。
Take me, I was born damned.
就拿我来说吧，我生来就是该死的。
I'm cowardly, petty intolerant, lazy, and just generally destructive.
我胆怯、狭隘、懒惰，而且通常具有破坏性。
I knew I was damned the first time I heard the word.
当我第一次听到这个词时我就知道我该死了。
Your Calvinism relieves you of the responsibility for improving yourself.
你的加尔文主义免除了你改善自己的责任。
Yeah Pete, the kid can take it.
是的，皮特，这孩子能承受。
Now give me three.
现在给我三个。
You can't have four.
你不能有四个。
The most you can have is three.
您最多可以拥有三个。
OK, I'll take two.
好的，我要两个。
Peter And two for the dealer.
彼得 还有两个给经销商。
Call.
称呼。
What do you have?
你有什么？
Caleb Pair of nines.
迦勒 (Caleb) 对九。
Dondi?
唐迪？
Three onions.
三个洋葱。
Caleb Those are spades, not onions.
迦勒 这些是黑桃，不是洋葱。
And you're supposed to match the numbers, not the suit, you little spaghetti sucker.
而且你应该匹配数字，而不是西装，你这个意大利面小傻瓜。
I have a Klondike.
我有一个克朗代克。
[WAILING GRANDMOTHER]
[哭泣的祖母]
You have garbage.
你有垃圾。
How many times do we have to go through this?
我们要经历多少次这样的事情？
It's like rolling a boulder up a hill just to have it roll back down again over and over and over.
这就像把一块巨石滚上山，却又让它滚下来，一遍又一遍。
I will not make the mistake again, sahib.
我不会再犯同样的错误了，先生。
Don't call me sahib.
别叫我老爷子。
Peter, what do you have?
彼得，你有什么？
Pair of jacks, all right.
一对千斤顶，好吧。
Pair of jacks takes it.
一对千斤顶接受它。
All right, seven card stud poker, one-eyed royalty, red deuces, nines and all odd-numbered clubs are wild.
好吧，七张牌梭哈扑克、单眼王牌、红色平分、九号和所有奇数梅花都是百搭的。
What do you guys think the worse sin is, murder?
你们认为最严重的罪是什么，谋杀？
At the center of the ninth and innermost frozen circle of hell, Lucifer devours Judas eternally.
在第九层、最里面的冰冻地狱圈的中心，路西法永远吞噬了犹大。
Really?
真的吗？
Child That's what they say.
孩子 他们就是这么说的。
1 million lira.
100万里拉。
Me too.
我也是。
Caleb So do I.
迦勒 我也一样。
All right, so there are a few too many wild cards.
好吧，外卡太多了。
Let's hold the pot over.
让我们把锅举起来。
OK.
好的。
Peter.
彼得.
Peter Oh, sure, leave it over.
彼得 哦，当然，别管它了。
[WAILING GRANDMOTHER] Peter Do you think a sin is worse if say you-- for example you betray somebody.
[哭泣的祖母]彼得，你认为如果说你的话，罪孽更严重吗——例如，你背叛了某人。
Then suppose you don't feel any remorse, does that make it worse?
那么假设你不感到任何悔恨，这会让事情变得更糟吗？
Of course.
当然。
Gentlemen, the game is Chicago low.
先生们，芝加哥的比赛气氛很低。
Ace, no face, sevens, follow the queen.
A，无脸，七，跟随女王。
Wait a second, Dondi.
等一下，唐迪。
Caleb, could I talk to alone for a second?
Caleb，我可以单独谈谈吗？
Over there by the window?
窗户那儿？
Sure Pete.
当然是皮特。
Child I will go fetch us some delicious ginger ale.
孩子，我去给我们拿一些美味的姜汁汽水。
Good idea.
好主意。
What is it, Pete?
这是什么，皮特？
You think the kid's trying to hustle us?
你认为这孩子想哄我们吗？
What's a matter?
有什么事吗？
Peter Nothing, just I'm afraid of going to hell.
彼得：没什么，只是我害怕下地狱。
What?
什么？
Why?
为什么？
Peter I just don't think I'm a very good person.
彼得，我只是不认为我是一个很好的人。
That's ridiculous, Pete.
这太荒谬了，皮特。
You're a very nice guy.
你是一个非常好的人。
You write letters.
你写信。
I never write letters.
我从不写信。
Yeah, but what if you do something bad?
是啊，但是如果你做了坏事怎么办？
How bad does it have to be?
情况有多糟糕？
I mean if-- do you have to-- if you feel like it's bad enough to damn you, are you damned?
我的意思是，如果——你必须——如果你觉得这已经糟糕到足以让你该死了，你该死吗？
I mean if you don't feel any remorse?
我的意思是如果你不感到任何悔恨？
Is that it?
是这样吗？
You betrayed somebody and then didn't feel any remorse?
你背叛了一个人，然后没有任何悔意？
Is that what all those pregnant pauses during the poker banter were about?
这就是扑克玩笑期间所有那些怀孕的停顿的目的吗？
Well.
出色地。
Caleb How can you say you don't have any remorse when you're practically tearing your hair out worrying about going to hell?
迦勒 当你几乎为下地狱而揪心的时候，你怎么能说你没有任何悔恨呢？
But being afraid of punishment isn't the same as remorse.
但害怕惩罚并不等同于悔恨。
Remorse is truly feeling apologetic for what you've done, not just worrying about punished for it.
悔恨是真正为自己所做的事情感到抱歉，而不仅仅是担心因此受到惩罚。
No. Caleb Even though you recognize that what you did was wrong?
不，迦勒即使你认识到你所做的事情是错误的？
That's right.
这是正确的。
Caleb You know Pete, you're a very complex guy.
凯莱布（Caleb）：你知道皮特（Pete），你是一个非常复杂的人。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Grandmother They when to a sea in Sieve, they did.
祖母 他们什么时候到了筛子的海边，他们就去了。
In a Sieve they went to sea.
他们在筛子里出海了。
In spite of all their friends could say, on a winter's morn, on a stormy day, in a Sieve they went to sea.
尽管他们所有的朋友都可以说，在一个冬天的早晨，在一个暴风雨的日子，他们在筛子里出海了。
[UNINTELLIGIBLE] is causing her to recite "The Jumblies" by Edward Lear.
[无法理解]让她背诵爱德华·李尔的《The Jumblies》。
Well shut her up, will you?
好吧，让她闭嘴，好吗？
I can hardly hear myself think.
我几乎听不到自己的思考。
Shut up, Grandmother.
闭嘴，奶奶。
Peter I mean what am I doing here?
彼得，我的意思是我在这里做什么？
Who are these strange people?
这些奇怪的人是谁？
I don't remember deciding to come to Italy.
我不记得决定来意大利。
What am I doing in Italy?
我在意大利做什么？
Maybe to see the Pope.
也许是为了见教皇。
Peter Just last week I was in France in Rouen, the town where Joan of Arc was burned at the stake.
彼得 就在上周，我在法国鲁昂，圣女贞德在这个小镇被烧死在火刑柱上。
And I was visiting the tower where she was held before her execution.
我正在参观她被处决前被关押的塔楼。
And I was thinking about writing a letter, you know apologizing, a letter apologizing to the injured party.
我正在考虑写一封信，你知道道歉，一封向受伤方道歉的信。
I was looking down from the highest window in the tower.
我从塔楼最高的窗户往下看。
And just how you do-- you know, you try to tap into the place in yourself where you have truly apologetic feelings because you want to be sincere.
正如你所做的那样——你知道，你试图挖掘自己内心真正有歉意的地方，因为你想要真诚。
You don't want the letter to sound phony.
你不想让这封信听起来很假。
Except I realized, I discovered that there was no such place in myself, that where that place should have been, there was just an empty hole.
只是我发现，我发现自己身上并没有这个地方，那个地方该在的地方，只有一个空洞。
And it was frightening.
这很可怕。
It was like staring into the abyss.
这就像凝视深渊。
But you have to be repentant.
但你必须悔改。
I'm not repentant.
我不悔改。
You could just act repentant.
你只要表现出悔改的样子就可以了。
That's what ritual is all about, going through the motions.
这就是仪式的意义所在，走过场。
No, I'd have to be truly sorry in my heart or it wouldn't save me.
不，我必须在心里真正感到抱歉，否则这也救不了我。
What do you mean?
你是什么意思？
I can't just pretend to have remorse.
我不能假装悔恨。
You haven't even tried.
你甚至没有尝试过。
I mean the Pope is a very near-sighted, distracted old man.
我的意思是，教皇是一位近视眼、心不在焉的老人。
If you buried your hands in your hands and pretended to sob, I'm sure he'd buy it.
如果你把手埋在手里假装哭泣，我相信他会买账。
It's not a question of fooling the Pope.
这不是愚弄教皇的问题。
[GRANDMOTHER WAILING] Caleb You know, I'm starting to think that you don't really want to help yourself.
[祖母哭]凯莱布你知道，我开始认为你并不是真的想帮助自己。
How did I get here?
我是怎么到这里的？
Why are we playing poker in Italy with a demonic little boy whose grandmother is dying in the next room?
为什么我们要在意大利和一个恶魔般的小男孩玩扑克，而他的祖母正在隔壁房间里死去？
A peacock.
一只孔雀。
Peter What's that a symbol of?
彼得 那是什么象征？
Pride.
自豪。
Look, there it is the middle of the cemetery.
看，那里就是墓地的中间。
[PEACOCK NOISE] Peter It's golden.
[孔雀噪音] 彼得 这是金色的。
A golden peacock in the middle of a graveyard.
墓地中央有一只金孔雀。
I wonder what it means.
我想知道这意味着什么。
My advice is that you come up with the most positive interpretation you can.
我的建议是，你尽可能想出最积极的解释。
We're out of ginger ale.
我们的姜汁汽水用完了。
I can only offer you root beer.
我只能给你提供根汁汽水。
Well, that's all right.
好吧，没关系。
Child All right, gentleman.
孩子 好吧，先生。
The game is--
游戏是——
We know what the game is you little pistachio masher.
我们知道你这个小开心果捣碎者在玩什么游戏。
Who dealt this mess?
谁处理了这个烂摊子？
Caleb Don't give me that bluffing baloney.
凯莱布 别跟我说那些虚张声势的胡言乱语。
You've got a possible straight flush and onions.
你可能有同花顺和洋葱。
Do not mention onions, sahib.
别提洋葱了，老爷。
My grandfather was killed by El Duce.
我的祖父被领袖杀死了。
Don't call me sahib.
别叫我老爷子。
Peter Talk is cheap, gentlemen.
先生们，Peter Talk 很便宜。
2 million lira.
200万里拉。
[PEACOCK NOISES] Ira Glass Well, "The Golden Peacock" was written by Jeff Dorchen.
[孔雀噪音] Ira Glass 好吧，《金孔雀》是由 Jeff Dorchen 创作的。
Jeff also played Caleb.
杰夫也扮演迦勒。
Peter Handler played Lisa.
彼得·汉德勒饰演丽莎。
Lisa [?
丽莎[?
Stoddard ?] played Dondi.
斯托达德？]扮演唐迪。
And I played the dying grandmother.
我扮演了垂死的祖母。
Jeff Dorchen has a new play here in Chicago called Arrogant Living.
杰夫·多尔钦 (Jeff Dorchen) 在芝加哥上演了一部新剧，名为《傲慢的生活》(Arrogant Living)。
Act Three, How Bad is This Relationship?
第三幕，这种关系有多糟糕？
Well, most of us have probably been in some relationship where it got to the point where you just had to look at it and say, all right, here are the things between us that are good.
好吧，我们大多数人可能都经历过某种关系，到了这种地步，你只需看着它，然后说，好吧，我们之间有一些美好的事情。
These are the other things that are bad, not so good.
这些是其他不好的事情，而不是那么好的事情。
Is this relationship bad enough that the two of us should call it quits?
这段关系是否已经糟糕到我们两个应该分手的程度？
Is it bad enough to count?
是不是已经够糟糕了？
Now on dates, it's different.
现在约会时，情况有所不同。
On a date, things can be going well, and then suddenly turn around on a dime.
约会时，事情可能进展顺利，然后突然出现转机。
In one sentence, it can go from good to bad.
一句话，可以从好到坏。
The other person says one thing, and you just think suddenly, oh, well this is going nowhere.
另一个人说了一件事，你突然想到，哦，这不会有任何进展。
This experience is so common that you could just walk up to somebody on the street, and they'll tell you one of these stories.
这种经历非常常见，以至于你只要走到街上的某个人面前，他们就会告诉你其中一个故事。
I should have known the relationship was doomed when on the first date-- he did order an amazing bottle of wine, so I was excited about that.
我应该在第一次约会时就知道这段关系注定会失败——他确实点了一瓶很棒的葡萄酒，所以我对此感到很兴奋。
But then when it got time to start with appetizers, he ordered the aspergas and shrooms.
但当开胃菜开始时，他点了阿斯佩气体和蘑菇。
And that's when I found out that he couldn't just talk like a normal person.
就在那时我发现他不能像正常人一样说话。
Everything-- aspergas is asparagus.
一切——阿斯佩气体就是芦笋。
Shrooms was mushrooms.
蘑菇就是蘑菇。
He was never at home.
他从来不在家。
He was at his hacienda.
他在他的庄园里。
And if he wanted to go get a drink, it would be cock-a-tail.
如果他想去喝一杯，那就是鸡尾酒。
Enough said, I think.
我想，说得够多了。
Well, I was on a date, and I was going to dinner.
嗯，我正在约会，我要去吃晚饭。
And me and this girl, we're talking over dinner.
我和这个女孩，我们正在吃晚饭时聊天。
And she asked me how my family was.
她问我我的家人怎么样。
I said that my older sister was married and just had a kid.
我说我姐姐已经结婚了，刚刚有了一个孩子。
And then I mentioned that my parents and my sister weren't getting along too well because she didn't get the kid baptized.
然后我提到我的父母和我姐姐相处得不太好，因为她没有让孩子受洗。
And then she said, well why not?
然后她说，那为什么不呢？
Doesn't your sister realize that your kid is going to burn in the fires of hell if she doesn't get her kid baptized?
你姐姐难道没有意识到，如果她不让她的孩子受洗，你的孩子就会在地狱之火中被焚烧吗？
And that told me that maybe this isn't going to work out too well.
这告诉我，也许这不会有太好的结果。
The only thing that really bothers me is when every time it's time to go out on a date-- and at the end of the date, she's asking, "Now are you paying for it?" That's it.
唯一真正困扰我的是，每次出去约会的时候——而在约会结束时，她会问：“现在你付钱了吗？”就是这样。
So we're sitting at the bar, and we're having drinks.
所以我们坐在酒吧里，喝酒。
And we're going over each other's history, what do you do?
我们正在回顾彼此的历史，你会做什么？
And he asked me what I did before I had my job now, and I said, oh well you know, I worked in Berkeley.
他问我在找到工作之前做什么，我说，哦，你知道，我在伯克利工作。
I worked at one of these lefty research institutes, and I wrote papers for them.
我在这些左翼研究机构之一工作，并为他们写论文。
And he's like, "Lefty?
他说：“左撇子？
You mean left handed?" And I was like, check.
你是说左撇子吗？”我当时想，检查一下。
Talking very much.
话很多。
A lot of conversation and you are not involved.
很多谈话，而你却没有参与。
A lot of their life story, and you didn't ask for it.
他们的很多人生故事，都是你没有要求的。
I mean so much conversation where it's like Charlie Brown.
我的意思是很多对话，就像查理·布朗一样。
It's just to a point it gets, blah, blah, blah.
只是到了一定程度，等等，等等。
What did you say?
你说什么？
Oh.
哦。
Blah, blah, blah.
巴拉，巴拉，巴拉。
Basically, that's it.
基本上就是这样。
This guy calls, and he comes to pick me up.
这个人打来电话，他来接我。
He was very nice.
他人很好。
I have to say I told him that I didn't know anything about Cincinnati, and he brought this architectural guide.
不得不说我告诉他我对辛辛那提一无所知，而他却带来了这本建筑指南。
We drove around and he showed me all of these historic landmark buildings that were very beautiful.
我们开车四处转转，他向我展示了所有这些非常美丽的历史地标建筑。
And then he started driving around in these other neighborhoods and saying, "Well, I used to own that building but I sold it."
然后他开始开车在其他社区转悠，并说：“嗯，我曾经拥有那栋大楼，但我把它卖掉了。”
And I didn't really know what to say.
我真的不知道该说什么。
I mean you're on a first date with someone.
我的意思是你正在和某人第一次约会。
You don't really want to find out about their land holdings.
你并不是真的想了解他们拥有的土地。
So I just was polite, nodding, and we were driving around.
所以我只是礼貌地点点头，然后我们就开车四处走动。
And he points out another building.
他指着另一座建筑。
"Well, we own that one.
“嗯，我们拥有那个。
And now we own this over here." And a lot of them were substandard housing.
现在我们在这里拥有这个。”其中很多都是不合格的住房。
And then we drove by this other apartment complex, and he said, "Yeah, we had to put someone out of their apartment in that building on Christmas Eve.
然后我们开车经过另一栋公寓大楼，他说：“是的，我们不得不在平安夜把某人从他们那栋楼的公寓里赶出来。
It was terrible." And I realized he was a slum lord.
太可怕了。”我意识到他是一个贫民窟领主。
We sit down to eat.
我们坐下来吃饭。
And because of the way my kitchen is, we are eating in the living room.
由于我的厨房的位置，我们在客厅吃饭。
Because of the way my living room is, we're eating on the floor.
由于我的客厅的位置，我们在地板上吃饭。
And eating, eating, everything's going fine, I think.
吃，吃，一切都很顺利，我想。
And midway through dinner, she drops her fork on her plate, clank.
晚餐进行到一半时，她把叉子掉在盘子上，发出叮当声。
And I look up, and I'm wondering if something's gone wrong.
我抬起头，想知道是不是出了什么问题。
And she says, "Why haven't you kissed me yet?"
她说：“你为什么还没吻我？”
So I kiss.
所以我接吻。
And we kiss, kiss, kiss.
我们亲吻，亲吻，亲吻。
And the kissing is going fine.
而且接吻进展顺利。
There's no problem with the kissing.
接吻没有任何问题。
10 minutes into kissing, again pulls back, starts to cry.
接吻十分钟后，再次退缩，开始哭泣。
And she says, "Don't you think it's sad that everyone else can fall in love and people like us just can't?" Well, what do you do at that point?
她说：“其他人都可以坠入爱河，而我们这样的人却不能，你不觉得这很可悲吗？”那么，此时你会做什么？
Act Four, How Bad is That Movie?
第四幕，那部电影有多糟糕？
Well, in this program, in which we ask the question how bad is bad enough to count, we offer this now as a public service to people everywhere who disagree about movies.
好吧，在这个节目中，我们提出了一个问题，“糟糕到什么程度才算是糟糕”，我们现在将其作为一项公共服务提供给世界各地对电影持不同意见的人们。
So many movies are mediocre that the entire question of movies is just ripe for how bad is bad enough to count.
如此多的电影都很平庸，以至于电影的整个问题已经成熟，到底有多糟糕才算糟糕。
So many movies seem to straddle or even obliterate the line between good and bad.
很多电影似乎跨越甚至消除了好与坏之间的界限。
But we heard about a guy who had a simple, portable system to divide the wheat from the chaff.
但我们听说有一个人有一个简单的便携式系统来区分小麦和谷壳。
This test was invented by one Howard Rabinowitz of San Francisco, not a professional movie critic.
这个测试是由旧金山的霍华德·拉宾诺维茨发明的，而不是专业的电影评论家。
He says to determine whether a movie is in fact good, you simply have to ask the question--
他说要确定一部电影是否真的好，你只需问一个问题——
Is it better or worse than The Truth About Cats and Dogs?
它比《猫与狗的真相》好还是坏？
Because I take The Truth About Cats and Dogs as the absolute midpoint.
因为我把《猫和狗的真相》作为绝对的中点。
That is the midpoint between good and bad, great and unwatchable.
这是好与坏、伟大与不可观看之间的中间点。
The Truth About Cats and Dogs, you may recall, is the mediocre romantic comedy in which Janeane Garofalo is good, Uma Thurman is bad, and a dog is on roller skates.
你可能还记得，《猫与狗的真相》是一部平庸的浪漫喜剧，其中珍妮安·加洛法洛（Janeane Garofalo）很好，乌玛·瑟曼（Uma Thurman）很坏，还有一只狗穿着溜冰鞋。
It stands at the crossroads.
它站在十字路口。
It stands at the dividing line.
它站在分界线上。
And it's easy to use.
而且它很容易使用。
Witness a typical movie-going night for Howard and his boyfriend.
见证霍华德和他男朋友典型的看电影之夜。
We saw Chasing Amy , which a lot of people have liked and have said good things about.
我们看了《追逐艾米》，很多人都喜欢这部影片，并给予了很多好评。
And we definitely agreed that it paled in comparison to The Truth About Cats and Dogs , which doesn't really bode well for the movie.
我们绝对同意，与《猫狗的真相》相比，它显得黯然失色，这对这部电影来说并不是一个好兆头。
Let me just run a couple of recent movies by you and ask how they rate on The Truth About Cats and Dogs scale.
让我来播放您最近拍摄的几部电影，并询问它们在《猫与狗的真相》量表上的评分如何。
LA Confidential , have you seen it?
洛城机密，你看过吗？
I have.
我有。
I think it's definitely above The Truth About Cats and Dogs line.
我认为这绝对高于《猫与狗的真相》线。
Far above?
远在上面吗？
Howard Rabinowitz Well, it might be helpful to say The Truth About Cats and Dogs is the midpoint.
霍华德·拉宾诺维茨（Howard Rabinowitz） 好吧，说《猫和狗的真相》是中点可能会有所帮助。
Then there's a tier of about-- I mean I don't want to get too specific-- but say, 37.5% of the rest of the movies that are made are in that realm of good, pretty good to good to very good.
然后还有一层关于——我的意思是我不想说得太具体——但是，其余制作的电影中有 37.5% 属于良好、相当好到好到非常好的范围。
And I would say it falls on that shelf.
我想说它落在那个架子上。
It doesn't climb above into the great movies.
它不会超越伟大的电影。
Another recent move, In the Company of Men.
最近的另一个举动是“与男人为伴”。
Yeah, I would have to put that in just slightly above The Truth About Cats and Dogs unfortunately.
是的，不幸的是，我不得不把它放在《猫和狗的真相》之上。
If they had had one or two animals on roller skates, it could have been a different story.
如果他们有一两只动物穿着溜冰鞋，情况可能会有所不同。
Friends, you heard it here first.
朋友们，你们首先在这里听到的。
Things that can make our lives easier, the metric system, Esperanto, The Truth About Cats and Dogs.
可以让我们的生活更轻松的东西，公制、世界语、猫和狗的真相。
Well, coming up, one man's wild Wild West, Catholics and their special problems, and does absolute power corrupt absolutely?
好吧，接下来，一个人的狂野西部，天主教徒和他们的特殊问题，绝对权力绝对腐败吗？
That's in a minute from Public Radio International when our program continues.
一分钟后，国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program of course we choose a theme, bring you a variety of different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，每周我们的节目都会选择一个主题，为您带来有关该主题的各种不同类型的故事。
Today's program, how bad is bad enough to count?
今天的节目，到底有多烂才算烂呢？
And before we go any further, I'd like to just make the case that Catholics have a special burden when it comes to this question.
在我们进一步讨论之前，我想先说明天主教徒在这个问题上有特殊的负担。
Oh my god yes.
天哪，是的。
I've always loved how Protestants can go sashay through life not really wanting to know whether something is really a big sin or just a little sin.
我一直很喜欢新教徒如何潇洒地度过一生，而不是真正想知道某件事是否真的是大罪还是只是小罪。
This is Jim Nelson, who was raised outside of Washington DC, where he attended DeMatha Catholic School for boys where he remembers many discussions in religion class over the difference between big sins and little sins.
这是吉姆·尼尔森，他在华盛顿特区郊外长大，就读于德玛莎天主教男子学校，他记得宗教课上有很多关于大罪和小罪之间区别的讨论。
In 11th grade, for example, a heated, and surprisingly ambiguous discussion over how bad is masturbation.
例如，在十一年级，一场关于手淫有多糟糕的激烈且令人惊讶的模棱两可的讨论。
Church doctrine, he was told, said it was a cardinal said, meaning you'd go to hell for that.
他被告知，教会教义说这是一位枢机主教说的，这意味着你会因此下地狱。
But the living church, his teacher said, was much more lenient.
但他的老师说，活生生的教会要宽容得多。
Perhaps, current theologians said, it was just a venial sin, meaning bad, very bad of course, but you won't actually go to hell.
也许，现在的神学家说，这只是一种小罪，意思是坏，当然非常坏，但你实际上不会下地狱。
The ambiguity drove Jim crazy.
这种模棱两可让吉姆抓狂了。
Which was it?
是哪一个？
Which was it, he says.
他说，就是这样。
He just had to know.
他只需要知道。
He can still get worked up over it.
他仍然会为此感到兴奋。
And if it isn't a cardinal sin, and if nobody-- if none of the priests believe that it is a cardinal sin-- then let's update the records.
如果这不是大罪，如果没有人——如果没有牧师相信这是大罪——那么让我们更新记录。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
Yeah, let's get everything in order question.
是的，让我们按顺序解决所有问题。
Let's just get everything in order.
让我们把一切都安排好。
Let's be on the same page.
让我们达成共识。
Exactly.
确切地。
Ira Glass Looking back, what do you make out of the entire endeavor of this, of trying to define well OK, here's the line.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 回顾过去，你从整个努力中得到了什么，试图很好地定义好吧，这就是底线。
Here's the line that gets you into hell.
这是让你陷入地狱的那条线。
I think it still sticks with me.
我想它仍然伴随着我。
That's the hard part about it.
这是最困难的部分。
And this is the vexing thing he says, that although he no longer is a practicing Catholic, he no longer believes in heaven and hell, he still finds himself asking, how bad is this?
这就是他所说的令人烦恼的事情，尽管他不再是一名虔诚的天主教徒，他不再相信天堂和地狱，但他仍然发现自己在问，这有多糟糕？
Cardinal sin?
大罪？
Venial sin?
小罪？
Is this bad enough to count.
这够糟糕的吗？
For instance, just last week, talking his way out of jury duty.
例如，就在上周，他通过谈话摆脱了陪审团的职责。
Big sin or little sin?
大罪还是小罪？
Not responding to email within 24 hours.
24 小时内未回复电子邮件。
Little sin, he says, but big enough that he lies to the people who write him the email, which of course is a big sin.
他说，罪孽虽小，但罪孽却很大，以至于他对给他写电子邮件的人撒了谎，这当然是一个大罪孽。
But he figures not as big, and not as bad, as hurting the peoples' feelings by not responding quickly.
但他认为，不迅速做出反应对人民感情的伤害并没有那么大，也没有那么糟糕。
Then there's the whole returning phone calls thing, returning them right away.
然后就是整个回电话的事情，立即回电话。
If you don't return them right away, is that a sin?
如果不立即归还，是否有罪？
Oh yeah, oh totally.
哦，是的，哦，完全是。
It's more like even just screening phone calls I go through that because--
这更像是我经历过的事情，甚至只是筛选电话，因为——
You worry that you may be sinning by screening phone calls?
您担心屏蔽电话可能会犯罪吗？
Well, because when somebody calls you, I feel like it's an honesty thing that if you're there, you should pick up.
嗯，因为当有人打电话给你时，我觉得这是一件诚实的事情，如果你在那里，你应该接听。
And I lately have been not answering.
而我最近一直没有回复。
And I just screen the phone calls, and it's a little bit of a moral quandary for me.
我只是屏蔽电话，这对我来说有点道德上的困境。
I talked it over with a couple of friends who suggested a compromise.
我和几个朋友讨论了这个问题，他们提出了妥协的建议。
What's the compromise?
妥协是什么？
Jim Nelson To turn the volume down so that I can't hear.
吉姆·纳尔逊：把音量调低，这样我就听不到了。
So I don't know who's calling me, I'm actually not being forced to decide whether I should answer the phone or not.
所以我不知道谁给我打电话，实际上我并没有被迫决定是否应该接电话。
So I'm at peace with myself again.
所以我又对自己感到平静了。
Act Five, Creating Your Own Moral Code.
第五幕，创建你自己的道德准则。
Eli had no problem deciding how bad is bad enough to count.
伊莱毫不犹豫地决定有多糟糕才算糟糕。
Unfortunately for him, federal officials did not agree with his judgment about good and bad, and they threw him and his friends in prison for what they did as computer hackers.
对他来说不幸的是，联邦官员不同意他对好与坏的判断，他们因他和他的朋友作为计算机黑客的所作所为而被投入监狱。
Did he learn a lesson from his time in the big house?
他从在大房子里的经历中吸取了教训吗？
It was so fun.
太有趣了。
I have to say I had fun.
我不得不说我玩得很开心。
It was a good experience, and I don't regret going there actually.
这是一次很好的经历，实际上我并不后悔去那里。
I think a lot of people are going to hear this and feel a certain horror.
我想很多人听到这个消息都会感到某种恐惧。
They're going to feel like people should be punished.
他们会觉得人们应该受到惩罚。
Oh yeah, what I did was a bad thing, and I don't suggest anybody else do it because that would be wrong.
哦，是的，我所做的是一件坏事，我不建议其他人这样做，因为那是错误的。
I don't do anything illegal anymore.
我不再做违法的事了
Well, we started this program with three aspiring computer hackers who feared hell.
好吧，我们与三位害怕地狱的有抱负的计算机黑客一起开始了这个项目。
This is the story of an accomplished computer hacker who does not fear hell.
这是一个不畏地狱、卓有成效的计算机黑客的故事。
Starting in mid 1980's, Eli was a member of a crew of computer hackers called MOD.
从 20 世纪 80 年代中期开始，Eli 成为了 MOD 计算机黑客组织的成员。
In the crew and online, Eli was known as Acid Phreak, that's phreak, P-H-R-E-A-K.
在剧组和网络上，Eli 被称为 Acid Phreak，即 phreak，P-H-R-E-A-K。
Journalists from The Village Voice and Esquire magazine documented just how much MOD was able to do.
《Village Voice》和《Esquire》杂志的记者记录了 MOD 的能力。
It is entirely possible that no group American of hackers before or since has ever gotten as far in breaking into other people's computers.
完全有可能的是，在此之前或之后，没有哪一个美国黑客团体能够在侵入他人计算机方面取得如此大的成就。
They infiltrated dozens of businesses and government networks.
他们渗透了数十家企业和政府网络。
At one point, the reporters from Esquire asked them to demonstrate their skills by breaking into the White House computer system.
有一次，《时尚先生》的记者要求他们通过闯入白宫计算机系统来展示自己的技能。
And then, they watched them do it.
然后，他们看着他们这样做。
But MOD's real love was not actually breaking into stuff like the White House.
但 MOD 真正的爱好并不是闯入白宫之类的地方。
What they loved was trying to figure out the biggest, most sophisticated, complicated computer system in the world, which is the phone system.
他们喜欢尝试找出世界上最大、最精密、最复杂的计算机系统，这就是电话系统。
They hacked their way into the highest level computers that run the phone system for New York and New England, meaning they had the power to assign any services to any phone, listen to any phone, disconnected or create accounts, get unlisted phone numbers or bring the whole system down.
他们侵入了运行纽约和新英格兰电话系统的最高级别计算机，这意味着他们有权向任何电话分配任何服务、监听任何电话、断开连接或创建帐户、获取未列出的电话号码或关闭整个系统。
Eli served six months in a minimum security prison and six months on home confinement.
伊莱在最低安全级别的监狱服刑六个月，并在家中监禁六个月。
This interview was recorded a few years ago while he was still on home confinement in his parents house in Queens.
这段采访是几年前录制的，当时他还被限制在皇后区父母的家里。
The prison I had to gone to was very relaxed.
我要去的监狱非常放松。
It was more like a fame camp.
它更像是一个成名营。
People who were known and people who were involved in high profile cases went there.
知名人士和参与重大案件的人都去了那里。
That's what it was.
就是这样。
I had a couple of really good friends there.
我在那里有几个非常好的朋友。
Across from me, on the other side of my rooms, was a man they used to call the Condo King.
在我对面，在我房间的另一边，有一个人，他们过去称他为“公寓之王”。
And he lived in Massachusetts in a castle that was probably worth $5 million and had butlers and Roll-Royces and this and that.
他住在马萨诸塞州的一座城堡里，这座城堡可能价值 500 万美元，有管家、劳斯莱斯等等。
It was a real castle right on the water.
这是一座真正的水上城堡。
And he taught me about real estate, which was the funny thing.
他教我有关房地产的知识，这很有趣。
So I learned real estate from him.
于是我就跟他学了房地产。
I learned about stocks.
我了解了股票。
I learned from the best, and it was such a great experience.
我向最优秀的人学习，这是一次很棒的经历。
It was like college all over again.
这就像又回到了大学。
The attitude there was that of camaraderie.
那里的态度是友情。
Everybody there had this one thing in common, and that was that they looked for the shortest way possible to achieve what they wanted to achieve.
在场的每个人都有一个共同点，那就是他们都在寻找尽可能短的方法来实现他们想要实现的目标。
And they all got there at some point, and they just felt a stroke of bad luck I suppose.
他们都在某个时候到达了那里，我想他们只是感到运气不好。
There were no losers there, that's for sure.
那里没有失败者，这是肯定的。
Everybody there had achieved a very high level of success, very well known in whatever they did.
那里的每个人都取得了非常高的成功，无论他们做什么，都广为人知。
I was friends with all the mobsters there, and they took care of me and stuff because I was from New York and I knew about Little Italy and Mulberry.
我和那里的所有黑帮都是朋友，他们很照顾我之类的，因为我来自纽约，我了解小意大利和桑树。
And they were just impressed because I was the only hacker in this whole compound.
他们对此印象深刻，因为我是整个大院里唯一的黑客。
As the only hacker, Eli got a lot of job offers in prison.
作为唯一的黑客，伊莱在监狱里得到了很多工作机会。
Everything from obtaining credit cards to changing credit to-- yeah, changing credit was a big thing because-- I don't know if you know about this but-- every time these real estate guys get busted, their credit usually goes down the tubes.
从获得信用卡到改变信用，到——是的，改变信用是一件大事，因为——我不知道你是否知道这一点，但是——每次这些房地产商人被抓，他们的信用通常都会消失。
One big request I had was to change a lot of credit reports and stuff.
我的一个大要求是更改很多信用报告之类的东西。
But I didn't' do that and didn't take it seriously.
但我没有这么做，也没有认真对待。
I just told them, yeah it was possible, but you're not going to get it from me.
我只是告诉他们，是的，这是可能的，但你不会从我这里得到它。
And there were a lot of mobsters who wanted me to set up phone lines for them that couldn't be detected by the police and things like that.
还有很多暴徒希望我为他们架设警察无法发现的电话线之类的。
And again, well, it's possible, but I can't do that for you.
再说一次，嗯，这是可能的，但我不能为你做到这一点。
But then again, if you were to ask me that and I was to do it, I wouldn't tell you anyway.
但话又说回来，如果你问我这个而我要这么做，我无论如何也不会告诉你。
So that's a question that's hard to answer.
所以这是一个很难回答的问题。
Come into my domain.
进入我的领域吧。
This is my room.
这是我的房间。
As you can see, it's a typical teenager room.
正如你所看到的，这是一个典型的青少年房间。
Well, sort of typical.
嗯，有点典型。
The bedroom he lived in during his six month home confinement was tiny, barely enough space for a bed, a desk and a bookshelf.
六个月的居家隔离期间，他住的卧室很小，几乎只够放一张床、一张桌子和一个书架。
There was a TV and VCR, two computers.
有一台电视和录像机，两台电脑。
Eli flipped on the stereo.
伊莱打开音响。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I guess I've got a lot of equipment around here.
我想我这里有很多设备。
I've got a fax machine here.
我这里有一台传真机。
In my room, I've got five phone lines.
我的房间里有五根电话线。
I've got a two-line phone, but I've got everything else connected to computers or a fax.
我有一部两线电话，但其他所有设备都连接到计算机或传真。
I've got three modems lying around.
我周围有三个调制解调器。
My computer is always on.
我的电脑一直开着。
There were cheesy Kung Fu movies on video.
视频里有一些俗气的功夫电影。
On Eli's CD player, old school rap, Nine Inch Nails, The Doors, Jimi Hendrix.
在 Eli 的 CD 播放器上播放着老派说唱、九寸钉、The Doors、吉米·亨德里克斯等音乐。
Finally, he said, "Let me show you the good stuff." And he pulled out xeroxes of old spiral notebooks.
最后，他说：“让我给你展示一下好东西。”他拿出复印的旧螺旋笔记本。
What was seized from me but they had to return back to me is my evidence examination report by the United Secret Service.
从我身上没收但他们必须归还给我的是联合特勤局的证据检查报告。
Subject, Acid Phreak.
对象，酸飞客。
These notes have basically all the systems I got into.
这些笔记基本上包含了我接触过的所有系统。
Look, I have little sketches and diagrams of how things work, different protocols and networks, definitions.
看，我有一些关于事物如何工作、不同协议和网络、定义的草图和图表。
See, a lot of stuff was really good.
你看，很多东西都非常好。
I had stuff outside of the country, NASA.
我在美国国家航空航天局（NASA）之外有东西。
Government defense.
政府国防。
Ira Glass Government defense.
艾拉·格拉斯政府防御。
Yeah, that's a Washington number.
是的，那是华盛顿的号码。
McDonald's, since I had telenet, I had McDonald's accounts.
麦当劳，因为我有电话网，所以我就有了麦当劳的账户。
If you were a McDonald's employee, I could raise your pay.
如果你是麦当劳员工，我可以提高你的工资。
So that way you'd get $15 an hour for shuffling burgers and stuff.
这样一来，你每小时可以赚 15 美元来洗汉堡之类的东西。
So did you decide just at random to help someone out?
那么你是随机决定帮助某人的吗？
I didn't do it to anybody.
我没有对任何人这样做。
I just wanted to know how.
我只是想知道怎么做。
We did this from payphones.
我们是通过公用电话做到这一点的。
We'd have a line of payphones.
我们有公用电话线。
We'd get into the computer, first liberate one phone, liberating meaning make it so that you don't need quarters for that payphone.
我们会进入计算机，首先解放一部电话，解放它的意义，这样你就不需要为那部公用电话提供宿舍了。
You just pick up and dial like a regular house phone.
您只需像普通家庭电话一样拿起并拨打即可。
So that way, we could make endless amount of phone calls without putting in quarters.
这样，我们就可以无休止地拨打电话，而无需投入硬币。
Next step was to get into the network, find a session that was already going and then knock them off while they were connected.
下一步是进入网络，找到已经在进行的会话，然后在连接时将其关闭。
And then sit there watching them.
然后坐在那里看着他们。
In other words, put us in the place of the computer they were going to connect to.
换句话说，将我们置于他们要连接的计算机的位置。
So next time they'd try to log in, they would get our computer.
所以下次他们尝试登录时，他们会得到我们的计算机。
And we'd type in, "login." And they'd put in their login account.
我们输入“登录”。他们会输入他们的登录帐户。
Then we'd go, "password." The password.
然后我们就去“密码”。密码。
They'd say, OK, password, and they'd put their password in.
他们会说，好吧，密码，然后他们就会输入密码。
All these things were already encoded in one key, so we could just hit one key, and it wouldn't look like we were typing it.
所有这些东西都已经编码在一个键中，因此我们只需按一个键即可，而且看起来不像我们正在键入它。
Login would just appear, whumph.
登录就会出现，嗯。
Password, whumph.
密码，噗。
Yeah, we'd hit the password key, and the password would come out.
是的，我们按下密码键，密码就会出来。
And then we'd say, "login incorrect" and then disconnect from them.
然后我们会说“登录不正确”，然后断开与他们的连接。
But we already got their login and password.
但我们已经得到了他们的登录名和密码。
And then when they reconnected, it would be the regular system, so they'd figure, hey, I made a mistake typing it in or something.
然后当他们重新连接时，这将是常规系统，所以他们会想，嘿，我输入错误或其他什么。
And that's how we would get into accounts.
这就是我们进入账户的方式。
It was funny.
这很有趣。
You get into things that are good.
你会接触到美好的事物。
You start targeting systems that are interesting.
您开始瞄准感兴趣的系统。
And then you start developing a collection.
然后你开始开发一个集合。
It's like baseball cards.
就像棒球卡一样。
I have NASA.
我有美国宇航局。
I have NSA.
我有国家安全局。
I've got phone company computers.
我有电话公司的电脑。
I've got [?
我有[?
Mizar ?].
开阳？]。
I've got [?
我有[?
Cosmos.
宇宙。
?] I've got this, I've got that.
？] 我有这个，我有那个。
McDonnell Douglas, [?
麦道公司，[？
Merriam Marietta, ?] TRW, CBI, TransUnion.
Merriam Marietta，？] TRW、CBI、TransUnion。
What else can I get?
我还能得到什么？
You try to get the big names, so you start developing a collection.
你试图获得大牌，所以你开始开发一个系列。
Then, after a while, it became fun to look up famous people.
过了一段时间，查找名人就变得很有趣。
Let's look up John Gotti's credit.
让我们来看看约翰·高蒂的功绩。
Let's see what he owns.
让我们看看他拥有什么。
Let's look up Julia Roberts.
让我们来看看朱莉娅·罗伯茨。
Let's get her home phone number.
我们去查一下她家里的电话号码。
Let's get this guy's home phone number.
我们来查一下这个人的家庭电话号码。
I'd go into payphones and stuff and hooking up.
我会研究公用电话之类的东西并进行连接。
I would drive up to a payphone really quick and do what I had to do and leave really quick.
我会很快地开车到公用电话前，做我必须做的事情，然后很快地离开。
That's when I really got into a movie.
那时我才真正喜欢上电影。
I felt like it was Mission Impossible , like that whole gang where it's like [SINGING MISSION IMPOSSIBLE THEME SONG].
我觉得这是《碟中谍》，就像整个团伙一样[唱《碟中谍》主题曲]。
And then we would all go out and hook up and everything.
然后我们都会出去勾搭一切。
It was like, yeah, all right.
就像，是的，好吧。
I'm that black guy who does all this technical stuff.
我就是那个做所有这些技术工作的黑人。
I can get into it.
我可以参与其中。
Let's go, let's go.
走吧，走吧。
I felt like we should have walkie talkies and headsets and everything, and be like "OK, Blue, go do your thing on 5.
我觉得我们应该有对讲机、耳机等等一切，然后说“好吧，Blue，去 5 号做你的事吧。”
Ready?
准备好了吗？
5, 4, 3.
5、4、3。
You're in, you're in." It was just amazing after a while.
你进来了，你进来了。”一段时间后真是太神奇了。
And we were just so excited we were getting all that stuff, and it was just a rush, the flow.
我们非常兴奋我们得到了所有这些东西，这只是一种匆忙，一种流动。
Once you start going, you can't stop.
一旦你开始走，你就无法停止。
You're just steamrolling one after the other.
你只是在碾压一个又一个。
And the flow gets you going, and then, you're just like, yeah, we rule.
流程让你前进，然后，你就像，是的，我们统治。
We're it.
我们就是了
If anything, it's striking how little they did with their power over computers.
如果说有什么不同的话，那就是他们对计算机的控制能力几乎没有发挥作用，这令人震惊。
It was mostly pranks, making someone's phone line ring continuously for hours unstopping.
这主要是恶作剧，让某人的电话线连续响几个小时不间断。
Turning an enemy's home phone line into a pay phone line, so that when the guy picked up the home phone, it demanded that he deposit a quarter, which of course he could not do because it was just a regular phone.
将敌人的家庭电话线变成付费电话线，这样当那家伙拿起家庭电话时，就会要求他交纳25美分的押金，这当然是他做不到的，因为这只是一部普通电话。
It was his home phone.
这是他家里的电话。
They did call Julia Roberts once.
他们确实给朱莉娅·罗伯茨打过一次电话。
They called Queen Elizabeth too.
他们也称呼伊丽莎白女王。
But there's an emptiness at the heart of a lot of these stories.
但很多故事的核心都是空虚的。
Once you've got the queen mother on the phone, what do you say?
一旦你接到太后的电话，你会说什么？
She's like, "Hello?" She's talking to us.
她说：“喂？”她正在和我们说话。
And we don't know what to say.
我们不知道该说什么。
"Hi, we're calling from the United States," and this and that.
“嗨，我们是从美国打来的”，还有这样那样的。
And she knew what was up.
她知道发生了什么事。
She's like, "OK, hello." And then she said goodbye, and that was it.
她说：“好吧，你好。”然后她说了再见，就这样了。
We didn't know what to say.
我们不知道该说什么。
What do you say to Queen Elizabeth.
你想对伊丽莎白女王说什么？
"Hi, so, you see that movie, True Lies ?" What do you say?
“嗨，你看过那部电影《真实的谎言》吗？”你怎么说？
The fun of it is finding the number.
它的乐趣在于找到数字。
Eli was thrown in prison for a relatively minor offense.
伊莱因一项相对较轻的罪行而被投入监狱。
It went like this.
事情是这样的。
Some of the members of his crew broke into the computers that list everybody's credit ratings.
他的一些团队成员闯入了列出每个人信用评级的计算机。
They copied some credit reports, and they sold that information.
他们复制了一些信用报告，然后出售了这些信息。
Eli was named as a member of this conspiracy.
以利被指定为该阴谋的成员。
They said we abused our power, but we didn't abuse it at all.
他们说我们滥用权力，但我们根本没有滥用权力。
We did nothing compared to the things that could have been done.
与本来可以做的事情相比，我们什么也没做。
What we did was such a small thing in such a larger scheme of things.
我们所做的只是如此大的计划中的一件小事。
It's kind of depressing in a way.
从某种程度上来说，这有点令人沮丧。
I mean there are so many things we could have done.
我的意思是我们可以做很多事情。
We could have monitored Peter Lynch, and what's the next best investment for the day.
我们本可以监控彼得·林奇，以及今天的下一个最佳投资是什么。
And we'd make millions of dollars investing or shorting some stock.
我们可以通过投资或做空某些股票赚取数百万美元。
But we never did.
但我们从来没有这样做过。
Now we wonder why.
现在我们想知道为什么。
We're like, damn.
我们就像，该死的。
There are so many applications for this stuff.
这个东西有很多应用。
What happened?
发生了什么？
But then, we were like, "Ah, we were just kids."
但后来，我们就像，“啊，我们只是孩子。”
Then one time one of us got the Mad Magazine owner's phone number, and we called.
有一次，我们中的一个人得到了《疯狂》杂志老板的电话号码，我们就打电话过去。
At that time, he was going through some rough times or something.
那时，他正在经历一些艰难的时期或其他什么。
And we were calling him for about two weeks.
我们给他打电话大约两周了。
And he was just so goofy.
他实在是太傻了。
He was kind of crazy.
他有点疯狂。
And he was just really stressed or something.
他只是真的压力很大或者什么的。
And we just kept calling him and calling him, and finally we started harassing him and harassing him.
我们就一直打电话给他，最后我们开始骚扰他。
We made fun of him and laughed at him and called him Alfred E.
我们取笑他并嘲笑他并称他为阿尔弗雷德·E。
Neuman and just ridicule him.
诺伊曼，只是嘲笑他。
And then he got so mad at us, and we used to keep calling and screwing around with him.
然后他对我们很生气，我们就一直打电话给他，和他鬼混。
And then one day, we read in the paper he died.
然后有一天，我们在报纸上看到他去世了。
The day after we had called him, he passes away.
我们给他打电话的第二天，他就去世了。
And we're there, like, yo, did we kill him?
我们在那里，就像，哟，我们杀了他吗？
I hope not.
我希望不会。
And then they said he had some nervous breakdown and this and that.
然后他们说他有些精神崩溃等等。
We were like, oh my god, I think we contributed to his demise there.
我们当时想，天啊，我想我们对他的死负有责任。
We better not tell anybody this.
我们最好不要告诉任何人这件事。
But then, we realized there were probably other factors that contributed to it, not just a kid calling him on the phone.
但后来，我们意识到可能还有其他因素造成了这种情况，而不仅仅是一个孩子打电话给他。
But since then, we stopped doing things like that because it was like, oh my god.
但从那时起，我们就不再做那样的事情了，因为这就像，天哪。
I don't destroy computers.
我不会毁坏电脑。
I don't take them down.
我不会把它们拿下来。
I don't delete information that shouldn't be deleted.
不该删除的信息我不会删除。
I don't.
我不知道。
I think there's something morally wrong if you affect a person personally and it's not only in his computer life but in his personal life, his right to make a living.
我认为，如果你影响一个人的个人，那就是道德上的错误，这不仅影响他的电脑生活，而且影响他的个人生活，影响他谋生的权利。
I think that's wrong.
我认为这是错误的。
It's just a question of morality.
这只是一个道德问题。
One thing about the computer world is that it's still relatively new, and hacking is still relatively new.
计算机世界的一件事是它仍然相对较新，而黑客攻击也相对较新。
So people in this world are still running across situations where no rules have been set about what's right and what's wrong.
所以这个世界上的人们仍然会遇到没有规则来判断什么是对、什么是错的情况。
And in that situation, people have to create their own moral code.
在这种情况下，人们必须制定自己的道德准则。
Eli's crew had its own particular code of behavior.
伊莱的船员有自己特定的行为准则。
For example, unlike most hackers, his crew did not share its information with other hackers.
例如，与大多数黑客不同，他的团队没有与其他黑客分享其信息。
We had complete control over certain networks.
我们完全控制了某些网络。
We could have any system we wanted on that network.
我们可以在该网络上拥有任何我们想要的系统。
Any host was ours, but still you don't let it get out to other hacking groups and other hackers because if they don't know how to use it, they don't understand the power of it all.
任何主机都是我们的，但你仍然不能让它泄露给其他黑客组织和其他黑客，因为如果他们不知道如何使用它，他们就不了解它的威力。
You can trust them.
你可以相信他们。
It's too much power for some people.
对于某些人来说，这权力太大了。
Basically, it's like having a gun.
基本上，这就像拥有一把枪。
Let's say it's the Wild West.
假设这是狂野西部。
You take it upon yourself to have a gun.
你自己承担起拥有一把枪的责任。
You're responsible for it.
你要对此负责。
If you give that to someone, you're responsible for that.
如果你把它交给某人，你就要对此负责。
So you don't give it out.
所以你不给它。
If you want to shoot somebody's sister, somebody's wife or something, that's upon you.
如果你想射杀某人的姐妹、某人的妻子或其他什么，那是你的事。
It's all a question of morality in my eyes.
在我看来这都是道德问题。
And if I know something, and it's of importance to somebody else, who's to tell me I can't sell it if I know it?
如果我知道某件事，并且它对其他人很重要，那么谁能告诉我，如果我知道它就不能卖掉它？
We're not evil people.
我们不是邪恶的人。
We're good people at heart.
我们本质上都是好人。
There was a time when me and my friend Nynex Phreak, another guy in the group, we found a system that actually-- what it did was you could input a certain series of digits.
曾经有一段时间，我和我的朋友 Nynex Phreak（小组中的另一个人）发现了一个系统，它实际上可以输入一系列数字。
It would take those digits and see if it was a credit card.
它会根据这些数字来判断它是否是信用卡。
So you could basically hack out credit card numbers just by guessing.
所以你基本上可以通过猜测破解信用卡号码。
Is this a credit card number?
这是信用卡号码吗？
It would tell you if it was or not.
它会告诉你是否是。
And we found that system.
我们找到了那个系统。
Finally, somebody wrote a program that would automatically do it, scan all night and get thousands of credit cards.
最后，有人编写了一个程序，可以自动执行此操作，整夜扫描并获得数千张信用卡。
And we were like, yo, this is no good.
我们说，哟，这不好。
What if they start selling credit cards and stuff.
如果他们开始销售信用卡之类的东西怎么办？
We were like, this is no good, so we actually called the FBI and told them about it.
我们当时想，这不好，所以我们实际上打电话给联邦调查局并告诉他们这件事。
I mean we didn't narc on anybody.
我的意思是我们没有对任何人进行缉毒。
We didn't say who wrote it or anything.
我们没有说是谁写的或者其他什么。
We just said there's a system that isn't right that it's open like that.
我们刚才说有一个系统不正确，它是这样开放的。
It was just getting ridiculous.
这真是太荒谬了。
So I was like, we have to put an end to this.
所以我想，我们必须结束这一切。
And we did that, and we were like, we can't tell any hacker we did this.
我们这样做了，我们就像，我们不能告诉任何黑客我们这样做了。
They'd be pissed.
他们会生气的。
And we felt like that was right to do.
我们觉得这样做是正确的。
That's kind of wrong.
这有点不对。
In fact, when I was visiting Eli, he was facing a daily question of right and wrong when it came to his own home confinement.
事实上，当我拜访伊莱时，他每天都面临着自己在家中禁闭的正确与错误的问题。
The prison system monitored his movements with this electronic device that was riveted to a strap around his ankle.
监狱系统通过这个电子设备监控他的活动，该电子设备铆接在他脚踝上的带子上。
The device sent signals to a computer about his whereabouts, and then that computer called another computer at the department of corrections.
该设备向一台计算机发送有关他行踪的信号，然后该计算机呼叫惩教部门的另一台计算机。
It used a phone line to do that.
它使用电话线来做到这一点。
Hacking this computer was pretty easy work.
破解这台计算机是非常容易的工作。
It was clear how to do it, but Eli chose not to do it.
该怎么做很清楚，但伊莱选择不做。
He was going straight, he said, not because he thought hacking was wrong, and not because he was scared of getting caught.
他说，他之所以直接走，并不是因为他认为黑客行为是错误的，也不是因为他害怕被抓住。
He was just tired of hacking.
他只是厌倦了黑客行为。
We had lists and lists of computers and no time to do it in.
我们有很多计算机的清单，但没有时间去做。
It just got to the point where it was such a large burden.
已经到了如此大的负担的地步了。
It was like, oh, we have to this one.
就像，哦，我们必须这样做。
Oh, there's another one we have to do.
哦，我们还有一件事要做。
It got to hundreds and hundreds.
数量达到了数百个。
And finally, it's not even fun anymore.
最后，它甚至不再有趣了。
It's such a rush to get it when you initially get it, but then it gets to be boring.
当你刚开始得到它的时候，你会很急于得到它，但后来就变得无聊了。
Here in Chicago, I've talked to members of big street gangs who've told me the same thing as those.
在芝加哥，我和街头帮派的成员交谈过，他们也告诉了我同样的事情。
They were quitting the gang not because they thought it was wrong to be in a gang or because their pasts were catching up with them.
他们退出帮派并不是因为他们认为加入帮派是错误的，也不是因为他们的过去追上了他们。
They were quitting because they were just tired of having the same night over and over again, hanging out on the streets, seeing the same people, doing the same stuff.
他们之所以放弃，是因为他们厌倦了一遍又一遍地度过同一个夜晚，在街上闲逛，看到同样的人，做同样的事情。
That's the thing about being bad people don't talk about much.
这就是坏人很少谈论的事情。
It gets boring.
它变得无聊。
I've just burned myself out, I think.
我想我已经筋疲力尽了。
I just got to that point.
我刚刚到了这一点。
Everybody gets burned out if they have a little too much of everything.
如果每样东西都拥有太多，每个人都会精疲力尽。
Today, three years after that interview, Eli is a manager of information security on Wall Street.
今天，在那次采访三年后，伊莱成为华尔街的一名信息安全经理。
Well, our program was produced today by Nancy Updike and myself with Alix Spiegel and Julie Snyder.
嗯，我们今天的节目是由南希·厄普代克和我、阿利克斯·斯皮格尔和朱莉·斯奈德共同制作的。
Our senior editor is Paul Tough.
我们的高级编辑是 Paul Tough。
Contributing editors Jack [?
特约编辑杰克[?
Hitt ?], Margy [?
希特？]，玛吉[？
Rockland, ?] and consigliere Sarah Vowell.
罗克兰，？]和军师莎拉·沃威尔。
Production help from Emily Hampford, Rachel Howard, and Alex Blumberg.
Emily Hampford、Rachel Howard 和 Alex Blumberg 为制作提供帮助。
To buy a cassette of this program, call us at WBEZ in Chicago, 312-832-3380.
要购买该节目的磁带，请致电芝加哥的 WBEZ，电话：312-832-3380。
312-832-3380.
312-832-3380。
Our email address, [email protected] This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
我们的电子邮件地址，[email protected]《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发布。
[FUNDING CREDITS] WBEZ management oversight by Mr. Torey Malatia, who says this about his years before public radio.
[资金来源] Torey Malatia 先生对 WBEZ 进行管理监督，他谈到了自己在公共广播电台工作的岁月。
Oh yeah, what I did was a bad thing, and I don't suggest anybody else do it because that would be wrong.
哦，是的，我所做的是一件坏事，我不建议其他人这样做，因为那是错误的。
I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life .
我是艾拉·格拉斯，下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
Until then, I'll dedicate this song to you.
到那时，我会把这首歌献给你。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。