775: The Possum Experiment - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #775 | July 8, 2022 775: The Possum Experiment Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 775 集 | 2022 年 7 月 8 日 775：负鼠实验 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
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如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass A while back, when she first moved to LA, Jessica worked at a pole dancing studio, an exercise place.
序言：序言 Ira Glass 不久前，当杰西卡第一次搬到洛杉矶时，她在一家钢管舞工作室工作，这是一个锻炼场所。
The pay wasn't great.
报酬并不高。
She was just a receptionist.
她只是一名接待员。
But there were things about the place that she just loved.
但这个地方有一些她非常喜欢的东西。
You know, we got to take classes, the receptionists.
你知道，我们必须上课，接待员。
And you're in a class with supermodels.
而且你和超模一起上课。
I'm not even exaggerating.
我一点也不夸张。
Cindy Crawford was in my class.
辛迪·克劳馥是我的班级。
And so then it would be--
那么那就是——
Wow.
哇。
Jessica Lee Williamson It would be like Cindy does her dance.
杰西卡·李·威廉森 这就像辛迪跳舞一样。
And then it'd be like, all right, that was beautiful.
然后就会觉得，好吧，那真是太美了。
Jessica, it's your turn.
杰西卡，轮到你了。
Oh, and you're soloing?
哦，你是独奏吗？
Jessica Lee Williamson Yeah.
杰西卡·李·威廉姆森 是的。
You have to solo?
一定要独奏吗？
Jessica Lee Williamson Right?
杰西卡·李·威廉森 对吗？
What kind of exercise class makes you solo?
什么样的运动课让你可以单独进行？
Another nice thing about the job, when she checked everyone in for a class and class started, she'd take these long breaks.
这份工作的另一个好处是，当她检查每个人的上课情况并开始上课时，她会休息很长时间。
Once, she strode over to Starbucks.
有一次，她大步走向星巴克。
On the way, she saw this poster on a telephone pole.
路上，她在电线杆上看到了这张海报。
Somebody had found a lost animal.
有人找到了丢失的动物。
And it said "pet found" above a picture of a cat.
猫的照片上方写着“发现宠物”。
And I just thought it was so weird that they said "pet found" and not "cat found."
我只是觉得这太奇怪了，他们说“找到宠物”而不是“找到猫”。
Which got her thinking.
这引起了她的思考。
And when she got back to work, without much to do, she decided to make a poster of her own.
当她回到工作岗位后，没有太多事情可做，她决定制作一张自己的海报。
I just wrote "cat found" above two pictures of possums that I had printed off the internet.
我刚刚在网上打印的两张负鼠照片上方写了“发现猫”。
One of the possums looks like he's crouching, disturbed by an invasive camera lens.
其中一只负鼠看起来像是蹲着，受到侵入性摄像机镜头的干扰。
And then the other possum is hissing.
然后另一只负鼠发出嘶嘶声。
I'd say the second possum is actually kind of scary.
我想说第二只负鼠实际上有点可怕。
It's bearing its sharp teeth, snarling.
它长着锋利的牙齿，咆哮着。
And then handwritten underneath, there are bullet points.
然后下面手写，有要点。
"Male, no collar, not very friendly.
“男性，没有项圈，不太友好。
I think he might be scared."
我想他可能会害怕。”
I said "not housebroken either," which I drew a sad face next to.
我说“也没有失恋”，我在旁边画了一张悲伤的脸。
And then it says, "Found on Sunset Boulevard.
然后上面写着：“在日落大道上发现的。
If he is yours, please call," and then a phone number.
如果他是你的，请打电话”，然后是电话号码。
Yes, my phone number.
是的，我的电话号码。
Ira Glass She made a few copies, less than a dozen, and put them up around her neighborhood.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）她复印了几份，不到一打，并将它们张贴在她的社区周围。
The idea that some hapless, well-meaning person would put up a poster like this, thinking that they had a cat, it just seemed so funny to her.
一个倒霉的好心人会张贴这样的海报，以为自己养了一只猫，这对她来说真是太有趣了。
She thought it was obvious that it was a joke.
她认为这显然是个玩笑。
She really didn't expect the calls.
她真的没想到会接到电话。
Within two days, my phone just wouldn't stop ringing.
两天之内，我的手机就一直响个不停。
And I'm not exaggerating about that.
我并没有夸大这一点。
I had to turn my phone off because it was just constantly, constantly, constantly ringing.
我不得不关掉手机，因为它一直、一直、一直响。
Hi.
你好。
I just saw a poster.
我刚看到一张海报。
It says "cat found."
上面写着“发现了猫”。
I'm calling in regards to the sign you have about the cat found.
我打电话来是为了了解你们发现的猫的标志。
I'm calling about your "cat found" sign.
我打电话来是为了告诉你“发现猫”的牌子。
And I'm just wondering, are you serious?
我只是想知道，你是认真的吗？
Because I don't think that's a cat.
因为我不认为那是猫。
And then when I started listening to the voicemails, it was kind of like this very unscientific, I would say, social experiment.
然后当我开始收听语音邮件时，我想说，这有点像非常不科学的社会实验。
Because you could really lock the calls into three groups.
因为您确实可以将呼叫锁定为三组。
And the largest group of people were actually very kindly just calling to tell me that it wasn't a cat and that it was a possum.
最大的一群人实际上非常友善地打电话告诉我那不是猫而是负鼠。
I just wanted to let you know that the picture that you have is of a possum and not a cat.
我只是想让你知道，你的照片是负鼠而不是猫。
So you're going to want to call animal control because it could have rabies.
所以你要打电话给动物控制中心，因为那里可能有狂犬病。
I'm kind of a wildlife guy.
我是一个喜欢野生动物的人。
And that's a possum, a male possum.
那是一只负鼠，一只雄性负鼠。
And you probably want to release that.
你可能想释放它。
I'm not sure if it's a joke or real, but I'm sure you know by now probably it was a possum and should probably let it out so it's not in your house destroying everything.
我不确定这是一个笑话还是真的，但我确信你现在知道它可能是一只负鼠，应该把它放出来，这样它就不会在你的房子里摧毁一切。
And hopefully it doesn't have rabies, and hopefully you didn't get hurt, didn't bite you.
希望它没有狂犬病，希望你没有受伤，没有咬你。
And it was like they were usually concerned for my well-being or the well-being of the animal.
就好像他们通常关心我或动物的福祉。
You probably just want to get rid of it, let it go or throw it away.
你可能只是想摆脱它、放开它或扔掉它。
But all right, God bless.
但好吧，上帝保佑。
Take care.
小心。
Anyway, that was nice of you to try to help a poor little soul like that.
不管怎样，你能尽力帮助这样一个可怜的小灵魂真是太好了。
So I would say 70% of the people who called were just calling out of the kindness of their own heart and concerned.
所以我想说，70%打电话的人只是出于善意和关心而打电话。
And then maybe 20% were calling like they were in on the joke, and so calling to say, that's my cat.
然后也许有 20% 的人打电话来，就像他们在开玩笑一样，所以打电话来说，那是我的猫。
You have my cat.
你有我的猫。
You have my cat.
你有我的猫。
His name is Giorgio.
他的名字叫乔治。
And then would make up a story about their cat or pretend to cry because they miss their cat.
然后会编一个关于他们的猫的故事，或者因为想念他们的猫而假装哭泣。
Like this next guy, who-- the sound quality, this isn't so great.
就像下一个人一样，音质不太好。
He says it's his cat, and the cat is a really gentle spirit.
他说这是他的猫，猫真的很温柔。
He's a really, really, really gentle spirit, but his behavior is erratic.
他是一个非常非常非常温柔的人，但他的行为却很古怪。
So he loves to sleep in the same bed with people, but he can get a little aggressive.
所以他喜欢和人睡在同一张床上，但他会变得有点好斗。
So you got to thump him in the nose.
所以你必须捶他的鼻子。
"You've got to thump him in the nose," he's saying.
“你必须捶他的鼻子，”他说。
Clearly very bad advice.
显然是非常糟糕的建议。
Jessica says maybe this guy is just trying to mess with her.
杰西卡说也许这家伙只是想惹她生气。
Which brings us to the last of her three categories of callers, making up maybe 10% of all calls, she says.
她说，这就是她三类来电者中的最后一类，大约占所有来电的 10%。
They're the ones who are mean and not in on the joke.
他们是那些很刻薄、不爱开玩笑的人。
They're calling to call you an idiot.
他们打电话来是想骂你白痴。
Yeah, that cat?
是啊，那只猫？
It's a possum, you fricking [BLEEP].
这是一只负鼠，你他妈的[BLEEP]。
Hi.
你好。
I think you found my cat.
我想你找到了我的猫。
I was just calling in reference to your poster.
我打电话只是为了参考你的海报。
If you could call me back, that'd be really great.
如果你能给我回电话，那就太好了。
Oh, and by the way, you're a fucking idiot.
哦，顺便说一句，你真是个白痴。
That's not a cat.
那不是猫。
Bye.
再见。
Jessica ended up getting hundreds of calls from all over the country because someone posted her "cat found" sign on the internet.
杰西卡最终接到了来自全国各地的数百个电话，因为有人在互联网上张贴了她的“发现猫”标语。
And the fact that overwhelmingly most people who called wanted to help her out and warn her it was possum, and that only 10% of the callers went out of their way to be mean.
事实上，绝大多数打电话的人都想帮助她，并警告她这是负鼠，只有 10% 的打电话者特意表现出刻薄的态度。
She says normally, she thought, people as a whole were not so great.
她说，她想，通常情况下，人们作为一个整体并不是那么伟大。
She wasn't somebody who had much faith in humanity.
她并不是一个对人性抱有多大信心的人。
I mean, for good reason.
我的意思是，有充分的理由。
Ira Glass Sure.
艾拉·格拉斯 当然可以。
But so yeah.
但确实如此。
So I was a cynical person, but then when the calls started coming in and the majority of them were so nice, it was very surprising to me.
所以我是一个愤世嫉俗的人，但是当电话开始打进来并且其中大多数都非常友善时，这让我感到非常惊讶。
It's interesting your conclusion to this is like, oh, people are surprisingly nice.
有趣的是，你对此的结论是，哦，人们出奇地友善。
Yeah.
是的。
Ira Glass You never hear that lesson.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）你永远不会听到这个教训。
[LAUGHS] Ira Glass I feel like so many things in life really come down to if you think people are nice or not, if people are going to try to do the right thing.
[笑] Ira Glass 我觉得生活中的很多事情实际上都取决于你是否认为人们友善，是否人们愿意尝试做正确的事情。
I feel like it runs all through our politics.
我觉得它贯穿我们的政治始终。
It runs through personal situations, whether or not you think people are going to basically do the right thing and be kind most of the time.
它贯穿于个人情况，无论你是否认为人们在大多数时候基本上都会做正确的事情并且友善。
Right.
正确的。
What do you think?
你怎么认为？
Do you think they are going to do the right thing and be kind?
你认为他们会做正确的事并且友善吗？
Oh my god.
我的天啊。
Of course.
当然。
I'm so squarely on the side of like, oh, yeah, most people are going to try to do the right thing most of the time.
我完全站在这样的一边，哦，是的，大多数人在大多数时候都会尝试做正确的事情。
But I definitely get into lots of conversations all the time with people in my personal life and just elsewhere who are just like, oh, of course that's not true.
但我肯定一直在与我个人生活中以及其他地方的人们进行很多对话，他们就像，哦，当然那不是真的。
Of course that person is trying to rip you off.
当然，那个人是想敲诈你。
Of course they didn't mean well when they did this.
当然，他们这样做并不是出于好意。
Right.
正确的。
When I made the poster, I would say it absolutely surprised me that people wanted to be helpful.
当我制作海报时，我想说，人们想要提供帮助，这绝对让我感到惊讶。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today on the program, "The Possum Experiment." We have three stories today on our show of people in wildly different situations, puzzling it out.
今天的节目“负鼠实验”。今天我们要讲三个故事，讲述人们在截然不同的情况下的处境，令人费解。
Can we trust people, really?
我们真的可以信任别人吗？
Are people mostly good?
人大多是善良的吗？
I know that it's such an embarrassingly basic question to be asking, but sometimes you really are in situations where that is the thing you need to figure out.
我知道这是一个令人尴尬的基本问题，但有时你确实处于需要弄清楚这一点的情况。
But we don't just ask the question today.
但我们今天不只是问这个问题。
We have answers.
我们有答案。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act 1, "Now You See Me." Kiese Laymon's a writer, and he's pretty clear on where he stands on this question, can you usually trust people?
第一幕，“现在你看到我了”。 Kiese Laymon 是一名作家，他很清楚自己在这个问题上的立场：你通常可以信任别人吗？
He lands squarely in the camp of be skeptical.
他完全属于持怀疑态度的阵营。
He says we've all been burned by other people, by institutions.
他说我们都被其他人、被机构伤害过。
We build up distrust, and distrust protects us.
我们建立不信任，不信任保护我们。
Which is the opposite of what Darryl Lennox believes.
这与达里尔·伦诺克斯的观点相反。
Darryl's a comedian.
达里尔是一位喜剧演员。
He says we're better off trusting that most people have good intentions.
他说我们最好相信大多数人都有良好的意图。
Yeah, you run into bad apples, but it's not worth constantly being on guard.
是的，你会遇到坏苹果，但不值得一直保持警惕。
This is not, however, what Darryl always believed.
然而，这并不是达里尔一直相信的。
In fact, until recently, he was more like Kiese.
事实上，直到最近，他还更像基泽。
But then something happened, something big, that changed his mind.
但后来发生了一件大事，改变了他的想法。
Kiese talked to him about it.
基泽和他谈过这件事。
There's a joke that Darryl Lennox tells that I love.
达里尔·伦诺克斯讲过一个我很喜欢的笑话。
He's a comedian, and a lot of his comedy has to do with the absurdities of losing his vision.
他是一名喜剧演员，他的很多喜剧都与失去视力的荒谬有关。
I'm at the baggage claim in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
我在威斯康星州密尔沃基的行李领取处。
And all of a sudden, this old Black dude shows up in front of me, goes, hey, man, ain't you a comedian?
突然，这个黑人老家伙出现在我面前，说，嘿，伙计，你不是喜剧演员吗？
I go, yes, I am.
我去，是的，我是。
He goes, I saw you on TV, man-- Conan.
他说，我在电视上看到你了，伙计——柯南。
Yeah, yeah, that was me.
是啊是啊，那就是我。
He goes, you's a funny dude.
他走了，你是个有趣的家伙。
I said, I appreciate it.
我说，我很感激。
Thank you.
谢谢。
He goes, yeah, you're the real philosophical nigga with the fucked-up eyes [INAUDIBLE].
他说，是的，你才是真正有哲学思想的黑鬼，眼睛都该死了[听不清]。
I was like, that is not how I describe myself at all.
我当时想，这根本不是我描述自己的方式。
Yet inarguably accurate, sir.
但毫无疑问是准确的，先生。
I cannot debate you on this one.
我无法在这个问题上与你辩论。
He kept going.
他继续前进。
Yeah, man, you's funny.
是的，伙计，你很有趣。
You're like half Morpheus, half Mr. Magoo.
你就像一半是墨菲斯，一半是马古先生。
You's a funny motherfucker, man.
你真是个有趣的混蛋，伙计。
I was like, half Morpheus, half Mr. Magoo?
我当时想，一半是墨菲斯，一半是马古先生？
I love this joke, because this stranger at the baggage claim, who reminds me of all my Newport-smoking uncles in Milwaukee, is recognizing Darryl and letting him know it.
我喜欢这个笑话，因为行李认领处的这个陌生人让我想起了我在密尔沃基所有在纽波特抽烟的叔叔，他认出了达里尔，并让他知道了这一点。
It's like that knowing nod I've gotten my entire life from older Black men strangers, often with a slow shake of a head and a mild smirk.
这就像我一生都从年长的黑人陌生人那里得到的会意的点头，通常伴随着缓慢的摇头和温和的傻笑。
Yeah, I took it as a compliment, is why I said it on stage that night, because it was really deep to me, the fact that he could sum me up that quickly.
是的，我把它当作一种恭维，这就是为什么我那天晚上在舞台上这么说的，因为这对我来说真的很深刻，事实上他能这么快地总结我。
Darryl always had problems with his vision.
达里尔的视力总是有问题。
So growing up, he was able to see well enough to play point guard on his basketball teams in high school and college.
因此，在成长过程中，他的视力足够好，可以在高中和大学的篮球队中担任控球后卫。
He went completely blind in his left eye two decades ago, when he was 33.
二十年前，他 33 岁，左眼完全失明。
And then in 2018, he became allergic to his glaucoma meds and started to lose the vision in his other eye.
然后在 2018 年，他对青光眼药物过敏，另一只眼睛开始失明。
Be two years ago this month.
已经是两年前的这个月了。
I don't remember the day, but I went to bed, and I could still look and see through a very small corner window of my eye and read a text message that had come in, and then didn't respond to it.
我不记得那一天了，但我上床睡觉时，我仍然可以透过我眼睛的一个很小的角窗看到并看到一条发来的短信，然后没有回复它。
And then I go to sleep.
然后我就去睡觉了。
I wake up the next morning, and that window was shut.
第二天早上我醒来，发现那扇窗户关着。
It was just straight black.
它只是纯黑色。
And then I laid in the bed, kept opening my eyes and closing to see what's going to happen.
然后我躺在床上，不断地睁开眼睛、闭上眼睛，看看会发生什么。
And then I didn't want to stay in the bed too much longer, because then that's when the fear steps in.
然后我不想在床上呆太久，因为那时恐惧就会出现。
So I got up, felt my wall all the way to the bathroom.
于是我站起来，摸着墙壁一直走到浴室。
And I stood in the bathroom, tried to stare at myself in the mirror.
我站在浴室里，试图盯着镜子里的自己。
I just kept turning the light on and off to see if I could register any light coming on, and nothing happened.
我只是不断地打开和关闭灯，看看是否可以记录到任何亮起的灯，但什么也没发生。
So I stared in the mirror.
于是我盯着镜子。
And I felt for the toothbrush, and I brushed my teeth.
我摸索牙刷，然后刷牙。
And I said, you're not allowed to cry.
我说，你不许哭。
I did my affirmations.
我做了我的肯定。
I did my affirmations.
我做了我的肯定。
I'm the best of all time.
我是有史以来最好的。
I'm the best comic alive.
我是活着的最好的喜剧演员。
I'm the funniest MF on the planet.
我是这个星球上最有趣的 MF。
And I'm going to change this world, boom.
我要改变这个世界，繁荣。
So let's go to work.
那么我们去上班吧。
So I start feeling my way around the house.
所以我开始在房子里摸索。
I just start riding the walls--
我刚开始爬墙——
Wow.
哇。
Darryl Lennox --sitting down, and figuring out how to use my phone.
达里尔·伦诺克斯（Darryl Lennox）——坐下来，思考如何使用我的手机。
You can't anticipate absolute blackness.
你无法预见绝对的黑暗。
There's just no way to anticipate it.
根本没有办法预测它。
You can't practice it.
你无法练习它。
Because even when you close your eyes, you still can--
因为即使闭上眼睛，你仍然可以——
I was about to ask.
我正想问。
Darryl Lennox There's still light and stuff going on.
达里尔·伦诺克斯（Darryl Lennox）：仍然有灯光和其他东西在发生。
Yes.
是的。
Kiese Laymon My eyes are closed right now.
Kiese Laymon 我现在闭着眼睛。
That is not what you're talking about.
那不是你说的。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Kiese Laymon Before he lost his sight, Darryl described himself as a fighter, nearly completely distrusting of the motives of strangers.
在失去视力之前，达里尔将自己描述为一名战士，几乎完全不信任陌生人的动机。
He stayed clear of them as best he could.
他尽可能地远离他们。
But after he completely lost his sight, that changed.
但当他完全失明后，情况发生了变化。
He felt like he had to trust strangers now, that he was getting into situations just getting from one place to another, where he thought he had no choice.
他觉得自己现在必须相信陌生人，他正陷入从一个地方到另一个地方的境地，他认为自己别无选择。
This, of course, isn't how everyone who's blind moves through the world.
当然，这并不是每个盲人在世界上行走的方式。
Strangers started approaching Darryl in a new way too.
陌生人也开始以新的方式接近达里尔。
Realizing he was blind, they would come up to him at bars, restaurants, and airports, and start telling him secrets, lots of secrets, all the secrets.
意识到他是盲人后，他们会在酒吧、餐馆和机场找到他，并开始告诉他秘密，很多秘密，所有的秘密。
He told me he'd have conversations like this eight or 10 times a week sometimes.
他告诉我，有时他每周会进行八到十次这样的谈话。
It's like a confessional, like a confessional.
这就像一个忏悔室，就像一个忏悔室。
People get close enough to me and they start confessing all this stuff.
人们离我足够近，他们开始承认所有这些事情。
One lady, I was listening to a text message on my phone.
一位女士，我正在手机上听短信。
She goes, put your phone down, and grabbed my phone.
她走过去，放下你的手机，然后抓起我的手机。
I go, what are you doing?
我去，你在做什么？
She says, put it down.
她说，放下吧。
Life is short.
生命是短暂的。
I go, I know.
我去，我知道。
I know, but I'm blind.
我知道，但我是瞎子。
And I stop to listen to my phone.
我停下来听手机。
She goes, listen, I'm dying.
她走了，听着，我快死了。
I have two months, and I want to enjoy as much as possible.
我有两个月的时间，我想尽可能地享受。
So now I have to stop and listen so that she can have a complete, fully attentioned listened to conversation about her mortality.
所以现在我必须停下来倾听，以便她能够完整地、全神贯注地倾听关于她的死亡的对话。
And so I asked her the questions about, are you prepared, or what are you afraid of?
所以我问她一些问题，你准备好了吗，或者你害怕什么？
I have these conversations with people all the time.
我一直与人们进行这些对话。
Strangers will talk to Darryl about their partner's cheating, their money issues, their brutal divorces.
陌生人会与达里尔谈论他们伴侣的出轨、他们的金钱问题、他们残酷的离婚。
An ex-Catholic priest told him he liked to have sex with straight men.
一位前天主教牧师告诉他，他喜欢与直男发生性关系。
Some dude told him how he once robbed a bank in Seattle and got away with it.
某个家伙告诉他，他曾经抢劫了西雅图的一家银行并侥幸逃脱。
Each confession unprovoked, completely unsolicited, and by the way, mostly from white strangers and all from folks who are not blind.
每一次的坦白都是无缘无故的，完全是不请自来的，顺便说一下，大部分来自白人陌生人，也都来自非盲人。
Darryl says people do this because since he can't see them.
达里尔说人们这样做是因为他看不到他们。
He can't judge them.
他无法评判他们。
I wonder if these strangers are leaning violently almost on that Morpheus idea, that a blind Black man is some kind of oracle, a soothsayer, a wise Black superhuman here to save us all.
我想知道这些陌生人是否强烈地倾向于墨菲斯的想法，即一个盲人黑人是某种神谕者，一个占卜者，一个聪明的黑人超人，在这里拯救我们所有人。
I wanted to try my best to not be like that.
我想尽力不成为那样。
And yet, as we talked about strangers, I wanted badly to confess to Darryl how terrified I've always been of them and how COVID made this worse, made me see every stranger as someone I might kill or be killed by, how two years into the pandemic I've been nudged from being slightly anti-social into a complete recluse.
然而，当我们谈论陌生人时，我非常想向达里尔坦白，我一直对他们感到多么害怕，新冠疫情如何让情况变得更糟，让我把每一个陌生人都视为可能杀死我或被我杀死的人，在大流行的两年里，我是如何从稍微反社会的人变成了一个完全的隐士。
I didn't say any of that to him.
我没有对他说过这些话。
But it was why I was interested in talking to him in the first place, because his experience of the last two years has been the complete opposite.
但这就是为什么我一开始有兴趣与他交谈，因为他过去两年的经历完全相反。
He went blind at the beginning of the pandemic, and since then he's more embracing of strangers, more open to them than he's ever been in his life.
他在大流行开始时失明了，从那以后，他比他一生中任何时候都更加拥抱陌生人，对他们更加开放。
I listened to all of his albums and was intrigued, if not fully convinced, by his musings on that and on the relationships between blindness and Blackness.
我听了他所有的专辑，并且对他对此以及失明与黑人之间的关系的思考很感兴趣，即使不是完全相信。
Here's one of those.
这是其中之一。
Here's something that I philosophized this little trip.
这是我在这次小旅行中思考的一些事情。
It's a trip for me.
这对我来说是一次旅行。
This fucks with my head a little bit.
这有点让我头疼。
My blindness is diffusing the scariness of my Blackness.
我的失明正在驱散我的黑色的恐惧。
That was one of my secret weapons to be a big brother, and people get nervous.
这是我成为大哥的秘密武器之一，人们会感到紧张。
Oh, fuck.
哦，操。
There's a big Black guy.
有个黑人大佬。
Watch out.
当心。
That shit is powerful.
这玩意儿太强大了
It was a thrill.
这真是令人兴奋。
Once people find out that I can't see, my Blackness is out the window.
一旦人们发现我看不见，我的黑暗就消失了。
They treat me like I'm a Make-a-Wish baby.
他们对待我就像我是一个许愿婴儿一样。
Uh oh, watch out.
呃哦，小心点。
There's a big Black guy.
有个黑人大佬。
Oh, he just walked into the broom closet.
哦，他刚刚走进杂物间。
OK, no worries.
好的，不用担心。
I got the joke, but I wasn't sure if I was supposed to laugh at the broom closet trope or nod up and down slowly, signaling that I was aware of the broom closet trope.
我明白了这个笑话，但我不确定我是否应该嘲笑扫帚间的比喻，或者慢慢地上下点头，表明我知道扫帚间的比喻。
Darryl told me this one confession story that was also one of these instances where he could see his blindness diffusing his Blackness in real time.
达里尔告诉我这个忏悔故事，这也是他可以看到他的失明实时扩散他的黑暗的例子之一。
It was about a guy he bumped into by accident as he sat down at a bar.
这是关于他在酒吧坐下时偶然撞见的一个人的故事。
The guy seemed unusually mad about it, even after Darryl apologized and explained he couldn't see.
即使达里尔道歉并解释说他看不见之后，那家伙似乎对此异常生气。
So I felt this hostility, energy just funky right away.
所以我立刻就感受到了这种敌意和能量。
So I go, what's your name?
那我走了，你叫什么名字？
He goes, Bob.
他走了，鲍勃。
I go, Bob, I'm Darryl.
我走了，鲍勃，我是达里尔。
And I said, come on, man, let me buy you a beer.
我说，来吧，伙计，让我给你买瓶啤酒。
Then he goes, so you're really blind?
然后他就走了，所以你真的瞎了？
And I say, yeah.
我说，是的。
And he goes, what's that like?
他走了，那是什么样子？
I said, well, I have to trust everybody.
我说，好吧，我必须相信每个人。
He goes, I would never let that happen.
他走了，我绝对不会让这种事发生。
He goes, I'm a cop.
他走了，我是警察。
I go, well, wait.
我走了，好吧，等等。
So if I have to trust everybody, you have to wake up and trust nobody?
所以如果我必须信任每个人，你就必须醒来并相信任何人吗？
He goes, that's exactly right.
他走了，完全正确。
Bob the cop went on to confess how being so vigilantly mistrustful was taking a toll on him, and he wasn't sure if he could keep doing it.
警察鲍勃接着承认，如此警惕的不信任对他造成了怎样的伤害，他不确定自己是否还能继续这样做。
And he goes, I'll be honest with you.
然后他就走了，我对你说实话。
He goes, my name isn't Bob.
他走了，我的名字不是鲍勃。
I go, I knew you was lying.
我走，我就知道你在撒谎。
Ain't nobody named Bob.
没有人叫鲍勃。
Ain't nobody named damn Bob.
没有人叫该死的鲍勃。
So I said, well, what's your name?
所以我说，好吧，你叫什么名字？
He said it was Kyle.
他说是凯尔。
And he goes, I'll be honest with you.
然后他就走了，我对你说实话。
He goes, when you sat down, I immediately got my guard up.
他走了，你一坐下，我就立刻戒备起来。
I go, because I'm Black?
我去，因为我是黑人？
He goes, yeah.
他走了，是的。
He goes, I'm always on the lookout for it.
他走了，我一直在寻找。
And he goes, now-- I go, so now that I'm blind and Black, you don't feel threatened or anything?
他走了，现在——我走了，所以现在我又瞎了又黑，你不会感到威胁什么的吗？
He goes, I wasn't threatened.
他走了，我没有受到威胁。
I'm just on the lookout for stuff all the time.
我只是一直在寻找东西。
Wow.
哇。
The cop formerly known as Bob wasn't just telling on himself.
这位原名鲍勃的警察不仅仅是在自言自语。
To me, he was telling on his entire profession.
对我来说，他讲述了他的整个职业生涯。
Darryl told me that when they finished talking, the cop hugged him tightly and did not want to let go.
达里尔告诉我，当他们谈话结束时，警察紧紧地拥抱着他，不想放开。
That doesn't happen if I'm not blind.
如果我不瞎的话就不会发生这种事。
And then I sense his hostility.
然后我感觉到他的敌意。
I'm like, oh, this cracker-ass dude is on some shit, and I got to be careful of him.
我就想，哦，这个混蛋家伙搞砸了，我得小心他。
He's going to be careful of me.
他会小心我的。
And we have a conversation about something, just stereotypical dumb stuff.
我们谈论了一些事情，只是一些典型的愚蠢的事情。
But now, because that door has opened where he's not being judged, he can apologize for judging me.
但现在，因为那扇门已经打开，他不再受到评判，他可以为评判我而道歉。
Now we get to be on the same plane in existence.
现在我们已经处于同一平面上。
There was something incredibly dizzying and high-key brutal about the "this doesn't happen if I'm blind" part of the story Darryl told me.
达里尔告诉我的故事中的“如果我是盲人就不会发生这种事”部分有一些令人难以置信的令人眼花缭乱和高调的残酷。
So the idea that people are treating you with less suspicion now, what does that make you feel, actually, about other people?
那么，人们现在对你的怀疑减少了，这实际上让你对其他人有什么感觉？
It makes me feel like we're all just one thing away from becoming more connected in humanity.
这让我觉得我们距离变得更加人性化只差一件事。
And so if all it took was for me to go blind for you to not feel threatened or weird, maybe we're all just one thing away from realizing we're way more connected than we are disconnected.
因此，如果我只需要盲目地让你不感到威胁或奇怪，也许我们都只是一件事就意识到我们的联系比我们的脱节要多得多。
That feels like a really positive conclusion.
这感觉像是一个非常积极的结论。
And I don't know that I would see it like that.
我不知道我会看到这样的事情。
I would imagine being mad about the hypocrisy or disappointed.
我会想象对虚伪感到生气或失望。
I can't see it.
我看不到它。
I can't see it anything other than just a positive thing, because I can't-- I'm not going to be a well of somebody else's negativity, to let it contaminate me.
除了积极的事情之外，我看不到任何其他东西，因为我不能——我不会成为别人消极情绪的源泉，让它污染我。
It's how I've been training my brain anyway.
无论如何，这就是我训练大脑的方式。
I've got to be stronger mentally than I've ever been in my life.
我必须在精神上比我一生中任何时候都更强大。
I've got to be stronger mentally than anybody else.
我必须在精神上比任何人都坚强。
No different than what Obama had to do, or Jesus Christ of Nazareth, or Moses, or Muhammad Ali, or Malcolm X.
与奥巴马、拿撒勒人耶稣基督、摩西、穆罕默德·阿里、马尔科姆·X 必须做的事情没有什么不同。
You've got to be stronger in the head than you've ever been before.
你的头脑必须比以前更强大。
I asked Darryl about this so many different ways.
我用很多不同的方式向达里尔询问了这个问题。
Like, really?
真的吗？
And each time, he responded with almost single-minded positivity.
每一次，他都以几乎一心一意的积极态度做出回应。
His whole album, Superbloom, is about accepting catastrophe and willing that catastrophe into absolute abundance.
他的整张专辑《Superbloom》是关于接受灾难并愿意让灾难变得绝对丰富。
I got to confess, I didn't get Darryl's refusal to allow any cynicism or even healthy skepticism in until he told me this story about his response to George Floyd's murder.
我必须承认，直到达里尔告诉我这个关于他对乔治·弗洛伊德谋杀案的反应的故事时，我才明白达里尔拒绝接受任何愤世嫉俗甚至健康的怀疑。
It made me realize how singularly internal his existence is and how singularly protective he must be of that.
这让我意识到他的存在是多么独特的内在，而他必须对此有多么独特的保护。
Darryl said when he heard about the video of George Floyd being murdered, he immediately remembered the sound of George Zimmerman killing Trayvon Martin.
达里尔说，当他听到乔治·弗洛伊德被谋杀的视频时，他立即想起了乔治·齐默尔曼杀死特雷冯·马丁的声音。
I remember how much hearing Trayvon screaming, that sound.
我记得有多少次听到特雷冯的尖叫声。
And with limited vision, it lasts longer inside of you.
由于视力有限，它在你体内的停留时间会更长。
That audio stays in you.
那个音频留在你的心里。
When you can't see at all, your imagination can run forever, and your mind is very powerful.
当你根本看不见的时候，你的想象力可以永远运转，你的头脑非常强大。
So the mind pictures what this dude's face might have looked like.
所以大脑会想象这个家伙的脸可能是什么样子。
Or was the officer smiling?
还是那位官员在微笑？
It's the literal boogeyman effect.
这就是字面上的妖怪效应。
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
Darryl Lennox It's the thing under the bed.
达里尔·伦诺克斯 这是床底下的东西。
I remember watching the video and immediately turning the sound off at the point where George Floyd utters the syllable "Ma" in "Mama." Darryl did not listen to George Floyd call for his mama at all.
我记得观看视频时，当乔治·弗洛伊德说出“妈妈”中的“马”音节时，我立即关掉了声音。达里尔根本没有听乔治·弗洛伊德呼唤他的妈妈。
He knew that the sound of a Black human being accepting death and/or fighting for his life while an officer's knee flattened his throat would take his imagination into places his insides would likely never escape.
他知道，当一名军官用膝盖压平他的喉咙时，黑人接受死亡和/或为自己的生命而战的声音会将他的想象力带到他的内心可能永远无法逃脱的地方。
While we were talking, I wondered how differently this conversation would have gone if we were alone.
当我们谈话时，我想知道如果我们单独在一起，谈话会有多么不同。
I foolishly imagined that it would be just us during our conversation, but that's not how it works.
我愚蠢地以为只有我们在谈话，但事实并非如此。
As we talk, there were four other strangers listening in, producers who were neither big, Black, or blind feeding me questions on Zoom, a sound guy standing behind me for three hours in my tiny office.
当我们谈话时，还有另外四位陌生人在听，他们都是制作人，他们既不是大人物，也不是黑人，也不是盲目的，在 Zoom 上向我提问，一个音响师在我的小办公室里站在我身后三个小时。
There was the imagined audience of folks who were not big, Black, or blind.
想象中的观众都是身材不高大、黑人或盲人的人。
It made whatever connection we had feel like a short-lived spectacular performance that neither of us were directing.
这让我们之间的任何联系都感觉像是一场我们都没有执导的短暂而精彩的表演。
I wonder if you could talk, if you have anything more to say, Darryl, about the way Black men have interacted with you since you've lost your sight.
达里尔，我想知道你是否可以谈谈自从你失明以来黑人与你互动的方式。
It's been really-- brothers have this way of understanding without getting too personal, but also not letting you get off easy.
真是——兄弟之间有这样的默契，不会太私人化，但也不会让你轻易过关。
They let you know, hey, man, you're still a brother.
他们让你知道，嘿，伙计，你仍然是兄弟。
No matter what you are, you're still one of us.
无论你是什么，你仍然是我们中的一员。
Like there was this one amateur comedian.
就像有一位业余喜剧演员一样。
So I gave him some notes.
所以我给了他一些笔记。
He said, damn, man, you funny.
他说，该死，伙计，你真有趣。
He said, all right, man.
他说，好吧，伙计。
So I said, all right, bro.
所以我说，好吧，兄弟。
He said, all right, Cyclops.
他说，好吧，独眼巨人。
Wow.
哇。
Darryl Lennox Yeah.
达里尔·伦诺克斯 是的。
"All right, Cyclops." And then he bounced.
“好吧，独眼巨人。”然后他弹了起来。
Wow.
哇。
[LAUGHS] Wow.
[笑]哇。
Darryl Lennox So interesting about the Black community now is because I'm blind, I think they think I'm even more Black than I was before.
达里尔·伦诺克斯（Darryl Lennox）现在对黑人社区如此有趣是因为我是盲人，我认为他们认为我比以前更黑人。
Oh, talk to me about that, brother.
噢，跟我谈谈这个吧，兄弟。
What does that mean?
这意味着什么？
Why?
为什么？
How?
如何？
Because now I'm just my energy, which is just Black.
因为现在我只是我的能量，它只是黑色。
It's not insecurity.
这不是不安全感。
It's not I read a lot of books or I speak well or don't speak well.
不是我读了很多书，也不是我说得好，也不是我说得不好。
Now I'm just this brother that understands things.
现在我只是这个懂事的兄弟。
Though I've been firmly on this side of vision and this side of suspicion my entire life, my relationship with both started to shift immediately after my conversation with Darryl.
尽管我一生都坚定地站在这一边的愿景和这一边的怀疑上，但在我与达里尔谈话后，我与两者的关系立即开始发生变化。
I tried so hard not to be that goofy man whose life is changed in one interaction with the blind Black dude.
我非常努力地努力不成为那个愚蠢的人，他的生活在与盲人黑人的一次互动中就被改变了。
But the truth is, the day following our conversation, I didn't wait in the parking lot for my neighbors to go in before I got out of my car.
但事实是，我们谈话的第二天，我没有在停车场等邻居进来就下了车。
I didn't sit on my couch working all day, wondering what it would be like to actually go outside and play.
我并没有整天坐在沙发上工作，想知道真正出去玩会是什么样子。
I went to the park near dusk and swung on swings next to strangers for the first time since the pandemic started.
黄昏时分，我去了公园，自疫情爆发以来第一次在陌生人旁边荡秋千。
While swinging, I kept my mask on and listened again to Darryl's latest album.
在摇摆的同时，我戴着面具，再次聆听达里尔的最新专辑。
I kept replaying the first track, where the older brother from Milwaukee recognizes Darryl at the baggage claim.
我不断重放第一首曲目，来自密尔沃基的哥哥在行李认领处认出了达里尔。
Yeah, you're the real philosophical nigga with the fucked-up eyes [INAUDIBLE].
是的，你是真正的哲学黑鬼，眼睛该死[听不清]。
I was like, uh--
我当时想，呃——
That few minutes of swinging next to unmasked strangers, laughing goofily with Darryl's voice in my ears, it didn't make me feel free, or delivered, or fundamentally changed.
在没有戴面具的陌生人旁边摇摆的那几分钟，达里尔的声音在我耳边傻笑，这并没有让我感到自由，或被释放，或从根本上改变。
It made me go home in what feels like a world full of ruin, extremely thankful to be alive, and listen to an unexpected voicemail from a stranger named Darryl.
它让我回到家，感觉世界充满了废墟，非常庆幸自己还活着，并听到了一个名叫达里尔的陌生人发来的意想不到的语音邮件。
"Man," I texted him back, "I'm so glad we ain't strangers no more."
“伙计，”我回复他，“我很高兴我们不再是陌生人了。”
Kiese Laymon, he's the author of several books, most recently a memoir called Heavy.
Kiese Laymon 是多本书的作者，最近出版了一本名为《Heavy》的回忆录。
Coming up, a guy comes to New York City thinking it's a den of iniquity.
接下来，一个人来到纽约市，认为这是罪恶的巢穴。
And then a stranger walks up to him with a very unusual suggestion.
然后一个陌生人向他走来，提出了一个非常不寻常的建议。
Should he take the advice?
他应该接受建议吗？
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program, "The Possum Experiment," stories that shed light on the embarrassingly basic question, are most people usually trying to do the right thing?
今天的节目“负鼠实验”揭示了一个令人尴尬的基本问题：大多数人通常都在尝试做正确的事情吗？
Can they be trusted?
他们可以信任吗？
We've arrived at Act 2 of our program.
我们已经到了计划的第二幕。
Act 2, "Spring Awakening."
第二幕，“春天的觉醒”。
OK, so one answer to the question "can you trust people to do the right thing" is that you can trust the people in your own group.
好的，所以“你能相信人们做正确的事吗”这个问题的一个答案是，你可以信任自己团队中的人。
And you can define that group however you want-- the people you share a religion with, or a nationality, or a race.
你可以随心所欲地定义这个群体——与你有共同宗教信仰、国籍或种族的人。
Or maybe you grew up in the same place, went to the same school.
或者也许你们在同一个地方长大，上同一所学校。
They're the ones who share your values.
他们是那些与你有共同价值观的人。
Everybody else, don't trust them.
其他人，不要相信他们。
That's how the person in this next story, Clay Elder, felt about things till one day during a visit to New York City.
这就是下一个故事中的人物克莱·埃尔德 (Clay Elder) 直到有一天在访问纽约时对事情的感受。
Elna Baker, tell us what happened.
埃尔娜·贝克，告诉我们发生了什么事。
I've known Clay since we were 15.
我从 15 岁起就认识克莱了。
And when we get together, it's not unusual for us to Mormon out.
当我们聚在一起时，我们外出摩门教并不罕见。
Oh, what were they called?
哦，他们叫什么？
Elna Baker (SINGING) Book of Mormon Stories.
埃尔娜·贝克（演唱）《摩门教故事书》。
That one?
那个？
Try to remember church songs and other stuff from when we were kids.
试着记住我们小时候的教堂歌曲和其他东西。
(SINGING) We believe the Bible to be the word of God, as far as it is translated correctly.
（唱歌）我们相信圣经是上帝的话，只要它翻译正确。
We also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
我们也相信摩尔门经是神的话语。
[LAUGHTER] Clay Elder That's not even a song.
[笑声] 克莱长老 这甚至不是一首歌。
It's just words and notes.
这只是文字和注释。
Clay is gay.
克莱是同性恋。
As a kid growing up in the Mormon Church, he was taught that practicing homosexuality was akin to incest or bestiality.
作为在摩门教长大的孩子，他被教导同性恋类似于乱伦或兽交。
He hid out in musical theater, which, I know, terrible hiding place.
他躲在音乐剧院里，我知道那是一个可怕的藏身之处。
But in Utah, that worked.
但在犹他州，这很有效。
He studied theater at BYU.
他在杨百翰大学学习戏剧。
That's where he learned some of the musicals that Mormons love, the cheesy G-rated shows like Seven Brides for Seven Brothers.
在那里，他学习了一些摩门教徒喜爱的音乐剧，以及《七兄弟的七个新娘》等俗气的 G 级节目。
He didn't think it was something he would be able to do professionally.
他不认为这是他能够专业完成的事情。
Instead, he saw it as a hobby.
相反，他将其视为一种爱好。
He did musicals that the Mormon church put on, playing everyone from Joseph Smith, father of Mormonism, to Joseph, father of Jesus, or stepfather.
他制作了摩门教教堂上演的音乐剧，扮演了从摩门教之父约瑟夫·史密斯到耶稣的父亲或继父约瑟夫·史密斯的所有人。
He'd get on stage in front of thousands, help Mary give birth to the Son of God, and then sneak out to gay bars.
他会在数千人面前登上舞台，帮助玛丽生下上帝的儿子，然后偷偷溜到同性恋酒吧。
If he kissed a guy, he'd feel guilty.
如果他吻了一个男人，他会感到内疚。
And then he'd repent, then repeat.
然后他会悔改，然后重复。
It was torture.
这是一种折磨。
He knew that a bigger city like New York was where people went to do all the things he wanted to do, but he couldn't imagine going there.
他知道像纽约这样的大城市是人们做他想做的所有事情的地方，但他无法想象去那里。
New York was evil.
纽约很邪恶。
It was like the great city that would one day fall.
这就像一座伟大的城市有一天会陷落。
I knew that's what you were thinking when you said that.
我知道你说这句话的时候心里也是这么想的。
"The great and spacious building" is Mormon code for the wicked outside world.
“伟大而宽敞的建筑”是摩门教对邪恶外部世界的守则。
In the Book of Mormon, the people who lived in the great and spacious building dressed in fancy clothes and pointed out their windows at the believers, laughing at us and mocking us.
《摩尔门经》中，住在宽敞的建筑里的人们穿着华丽的衣服，用窗户指着信徒，嘲笑我们、嘲笑我们。
Their goal was to tempt us away from the righteous path.
他们的目的是引诱我们偏离正路。
Clay saw New York and the people in it as the great and spacious building.
克莱将纽约和其中的人们视为一座伟大而宽敞的建筑。
And I don't even mean metaphorically.
我什至不是隐喻的意思。
It was.
是的。
You know, I think that everyone said it was.
你知道，我想每个人都这么说。
So it took a lot to get Clay to New York, a catastrophic event.
所以花了很多时间才把克莱带到纽约，这是一场灾难。
It all started when Clay got a boyfriend, his first, and almost no one knew.
这一切都始于克莱有了一个男朋友，这是他的第一个男朋友，几乎没有人知道。
It was a big deal for him.
这对他来说是一件大事。
It meant stepping away from the church, possibly losing his family.
这意味着离开教堂，可能会失去家人。
After they slept together, they decided to get tested for HIV as a precaution.
他们睡在一起后，决定接受艾滋病毒检测作为预防措施。
This was 2006.
那是2006年。
And we went down to the Utah County Health Center, and we're like, we want HIV tests.
我们去了犹他县健康中心，我们想要进行艾滋病毒检测。
And they looked at us like we had three heads.
他们看着我们，就像我们有三个脑袋一样。
To be openly out like that in Utah County was rare, Clay says.
克莱说，在犹他州，像这样公开外出的情况很少见。
They both did the tests.
他们俩都做了测试。
Clay got called in to get his results-- negative.
克莱被叫去检查结果——阴性。
And then it was his boyfriend's turn.
然后就轮到他男朋友了。
They said his name.
他们说出了他的名字。
He walked back.
他走回来。
And I waited.
我等待着。
And I waited.
我等待着。
And like five minutes went by.
大约五分钟过去了。
And there was no way this was possible.
这是不可能的。
We were just two nice, recently out gay guys in Utah.
我们只是犹他州两个最近出柜的好同性恋者。
Who are only taking this test because you're so paranoid about being gay.
谁参加这项测试只是因为你对自己是同性恋如此偏执。
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
It was truly just to get one out of the way to see what it was like.
这确实只是为了让一个人离开，看看它是什么样的。
24 years old, 23, 24 years old.
24岁，23岁，24岁。
I waited, and waited, and waited there by myself.
我一个人等啊等啊等啊。
And finally, the nurse came out, and she had tears coming down her face.
最后，护士出来了，她泪流满面。
And she said, can you please come back into this room?
她说，你能回到这个房间吗？
And to say that my stomach dropped-- I could hardly stand up from the chair because I was so shaken.
说到我的胃下垂了——我几乎无法从椅子上站起来，因为我太震惊了。
Walked back into the room.
走回房间。
He was sitting on the chair, crying.
他坐在椅子上，哭了。
There was a doctor in the room, a nurse in the room, the one who was crying.
房间里有一名医生，一名护士，就是那个在哭的人。
And he said, my test came back positive, through sobs.
他说，我的测试结果呈阳性，但我却抽泣着。
I remember there was like a little stool in the corner that I sat down on.
我记得角落里有一个小凳子，我可以坐在上面。
I just didn't know anything.
我只是什么都不知道。
I had not been prepared for this moment.
我还没有为这一刻做好准备。
The doctor told Clay that since he had been having unprotected sex, he likely had HIV too.
医生告诉克莱，由于他一直进行无保护性行为，因此他很可能也感染了艾滋病毒。
It was just too close to exposure for it to show up on the rapid test.
它距离曝光太近，无法在快速测试中显示出来。
What do you remember feeling like when you got the news?
你还记得得知这个消息时的感受吗？
I really remember thinking, of course.
当然，我确实记得当时的想法。
Of course this is what's going to happen.
当然，这就是将会发生的事情。
Because just when you stick your toe outside of the church and you're like, OK, am I maybe going to do something?
因为当你把脚趾伸到教堂外面时，你会想，好吧，我可以做点什么吗？
Like I said, I still really believed it.
正如我所说，我仍然深信不疑。
It's not like I closed up the Book of Mormon and was like, cool, that's not real.
这并不是说我合上《摩尔门经》后就觉得，很酷，那不是真的。
Bye, I'm gay.
再见，我是同性恋。
I still was like, oh my gosh, they were right.
我仍然想，天哪，他们是对的。
To Clay, the cruel irony of getting HIV with his first real boyfriend wasn't lost on him.
对于克莱来说，他并没有忽视与第一个真正的男友一起感染艾滋病毒的残酷讽刺。
The doctor took blood samples and sent them home to wait a week for the results.
医生采集了血液样本并送他们回家等待一周的结果。
The next few days were hell.
接下来的几天简直就是地狱。
And that's when I said, we're not going to sit at home waiting it out.
就在那时我说，我们不会坐在家里等待事情结束。
We're going to go do something.
我们要去办点事。
And we're going to go do what I want to do, which is I want to go to New York City, and I want to see musicals.
我们要做我想做的事，我想去纽约，我想看音乐剧。
Clay spent nearly all the money he had on two flights and a cheap hotel.
克莱几乎把所有的钱都花在了两次航班和一家廉价旅馆上。
They got to New York and started getting as many $20 rush tickets to musicals as they could afford-- Spamalot, Jersey Boys.
他们到达纽约后，开始购买尽可能多的 20 美元音乐剧抢购票——《斯帕马洛特》、《泽西男孩》。
I was so excited by it all.
我对这一切感到非常兴奋。
I was so excited to see shows.
我很高兴能看到演出。
I was so excited to be in the city, but also terrified.
来到这座城市我很兴奋，但也很害怕。
And it was kind of like these moments of elation side by side with these moments of terror as I tried to just ignore what was actually happening.
这有点像这些兴高采烈的时刻与这些恐怖的时刻并存，因为我试图忽略实际发生的事情。
What was actually happening was that Clay was on the phone during the day, trying to get them both in a medical trial for HIV meds.
实际发生的情况是克莱白天打电话，试图让他们俩参加艾滋病药物的医学试验。
This is what he was thinking about as he was waiting in line to see another bouncy musical, The 25th Annual Putnam County Spelling Bee.
这是他在排队观看另一部充满活力的音乐剧《第 25 届普特南县年度拼字比赛》时所想到的。
The doors opened.
门打开了。
They shuffled into the theater.
他们拖着脚步走进了剧院。
Their tickets were standing room only, so they hung in the back against the wall.
他们的票只能站着，所以它们挂在后面靠墙的地方。
And the show ended, and we were all walking.
演出结束了，我们都走了。
You're all kind of herding outside.
你们都在外面放牧。
And we end up standing next to some people as we're herding outside, and they struck up a conversation with us, what appeared to be this gay guy and his friend, this woman.
当我们在外面放牧时，我们最终站在一些人旁边，他们与我们进行了交谈，似乎是这个同性恋者和他的朋友，这个女人。
And they said, are you from out of town?
他们说，你是外地人吗？
And we said, yeah, we're in New York visiting.
我们说，是的，我们正在纽约访问。
And by that time, we'd gotten outside of the theater.
那时，我们已经走出了剧院。
And he said, you know, you look like you were enjoying that show more than anybody in the expensive seats.
他说，你知道，你看起来比坐在昂贵座位上的任何人都更喜欢这场演出。
And he pulled out a wad of cash.
然后他掏出一叠现金。
And he said, here's $200.
他说，这是 200 美元。
Go buy yourself tickets to Sweeney Todd tomorrow.
明天去给自己买一张去理发师陶德的票。
It'll change your life.
它会改变你的生活。
And I'm this kid from Utah.
我是这个来自犹他州的孩子。
And I'm like, OK, what do you want?
我说，好吧，你想要什么？
I was a little bit like, what's going on?
我有点想，这是怎么回事？
Yeah.
是的。
Clay Elder And I took the money, and I just was like, thank you.
克莱长老，我拿了钱，我只是说，谢谢。
Thank you so much.
太感谢了。
You're really just giving me this money?
你真的只给我这些钱吗？
And he said, yes, just take the money, as long as you promise you'll buy yourself tickets to that show.
他说，是的，只要你保证给自己买那场演出的门票，就拿钱吧。
I was like, yes, yes, I will.
我当时想，是的，是的，我会的。
And we were standing next to an ice cream truck.
我们站在一辆冰淇淋车旁边。
And I said, can I buy you an ice cream cone to say thank you?
我说，我可以给你买一个蛋卷冰淇淋来表示感谢吗？
So we bought ice cream cones.
所以我们买了蛋卷冰淇淋。
And I asked also if I could take a picture with them because, again, I just couldn't think of what to do or say.
我还问我是否可以和他们合影，因为我又不知道该做什么或该说什么。
I was so taken aback by it.
我被它吓了一跳。
That was a lot of money to me.
这对我来说是很多钱。
Yeah.
是的。
Clay Elder I could have done a lot of things with $200 at that time in my life.
Clay Elder：在我生命的那个时候，我可以用 200 美元做很多事情。
They saw Sweeney Todd the following night.
第二天晚上他们见到了理发师陶德。
If you don't know the show, it's really different than the other musicals Clay had been seeing all week.
如果你不知道这部剧，它与克莱整个星期看的其他音乐剧确实不同。
It's about a barber who's seeking revenge on society by slitting the throats of his customers.
这是关于一个理发师通过割断顾客的喉咙来寻求对社会的报复的故事。
His partner in crime, Mrs. Lovett, takes the bodies and bakes them into meat pies.
他的犯罪同伙洛维特夫人带走了尸体并将它们烤成肉馅饼。
It was nothing like the shows Clay knew from BYU.
这与克莱从杨百翰大学了解到的节目完全不同。
For Clay, it was like that moment in the movie Pleasantville, where the whole world is in black and white, and suddenly you see a red rose.
对于克莱来说，这就像电影《欢乐谷》中的那一刻，整个世界都是黑白的，突然你看到了一朵红玫瑰。
That was the kind of theater I wanted to do.
这就是我想做的那种剧院。
It was weird.
很奇怪。
It was dark.
天黑了。
It was strange.
很奇怪。
Some people hated it, and some people loved it.
有些人讨厌它，有些人喜欢它。
That's what I wanted to do.
这就是我想做的。
I wanted experimental, weird things.
我想要实验性的、奇怪的东西。
And this was experimental and weird.
这是实验性的，而且很奇怪。
And they were pouring buckets of blood around.
他们把一桶桶的血洒在周围。
And Patti LuPone played the tuba.
帕蒂·卢波恩（Patti LuPone）吹大号。
It was like it ignited something inside of me that was always there and that I knew was there.
就好像它点燃了我内心深处一直存在的东西，而且我知道它就在那里。
But it was like, oh, that's it.
但就像是，哦，就是这样。
That's the thing I love.
这就是我所爱的事情。
So this random guy became for you a plot point in your life, where you basically were like, OK, there's the day before I met him, where I wasn't going to pursue any of this.
所以这个随机的家伙对你来说成为了你生活中的一个情节点，你基本上会说，好吧，在我遇见他的前一天，我不会追究任何这一切。
Then I meet this guy and what?
然后我遇到了这个人，然后呢？
And suddenly I'm going to move to New York and be an actor, because this is what I want.
突然我要搬到纽约并成为一名演员，因为这就是我想要的。
He gave me permission to move on to the next step.
他允许我继续下一步。
Because he was like-- and by being kind, he basically was saying it's safe on this side.
因为他就像——并且通过友善，他基本上是在说这边是安全的。
Yes.
是的。
That's the perfect way of putting it.
这是最完美的表达方式。
The very next morning after seeing Sweeney Todd, Clay and his boyfriend got a call from the doctor saying that the rapid test results were wrong, that neither of them had HIV.
见到理发师陶德后的第二天早上，克莱和他的男朋友接到医生的电话，说快速检测结果有误，他们都没有感染艾滋病毒。
For Clay, it felt like a sign.
对于克莱来说，这感觉就像一个标志。
His impulse to move to New York, it was the right one.
他搬到纽约的冲动是对的。
So he did, a year and a half later.
一年半后，他做到了。
He's been in New York for almost 15 years.
他来纽约已经快 15 年了。
And he actually did become a Broadway star.
他确实成为了百老汇明星。
He's currently starring in Company opposite Patti LuPone, who he once saw play the tuba.
他目前在《Company》中与帕蒂·卢波恩 (Patti LuPone) 演对手戏，他曾见过帕蒂·卢波恩吹大号。
And Clay still thinks about that guy who gave him money to see Sweeney Todd.
克莱仍然想着那个给他钱去看理发师陶德的人。
Recently, he decided to do an act of kindness in the stranger's honor.
最近，他决定为这位陌生人做一件善事。
He posted their story on Instagram, including the picture of them in front of the ice cream truck, and offered to buy tickets to Company for someone who couldn't afford it.
他在 Instagram 上发布了他们的故事，包括他们在冰淇淋车前的照片，并提出为买不起的人购买 Company 门票。
A friend immediately called and said, I know that guy.
一个朋友立即打电话说，我认识那个人。
They called the stranger over FaceTime.
他们通过 FaceTime 给陌生人打电话。
His name is Mark.
他的名字叫马克。
I'm sorry.
对不起。
I'm going to get a little emotional.
我会有点情绪化。
15 years ago, I went to go and see The Putnam County Spelling Bee.
15 年前，我去看普特南县拼字比赛。
And I was standing in the standing room.
我站在起居室里。
No way.
决不。
No way.
决不。
Clay Elder And I walked outside the theater, and you gave me $200 to go see Sweeney Todd.
克莱·埃尔德和我走出剧院，你给了我 200 美元让我去看理发师陶德。
Clay tells him how he ended up moving to New York because of it, how he's now on Broadway.
克莱告诉他他是如何因此而搬到纽约的，以及他现在是如何在百老汇的。
It's a mushy, cathartic reunion.
这是一次轻松、宣泄的重聚。
I don't even know what to say, but it's just so amazing that you remembered that, that actually-- sometimes you do things, hoping a random act of kindness will actually resonate with somebody.
我什至不知道该说什么，但令人惊奇的是你还记得这一点，实际上，有时你做事，希望随机的善举能够真正引起某人的共鸣。
And that it actually did is really just amazing.
它确实做到了，真是太神奇了。
What a gift you've given me today.
今天你给了我多么好的礼物啊。
Yeah, of course.
是的，当然。
Elna Baker Clay has heard this recording many times.
埃尔娜·贝克·克莱 (Elna Baker Clay) 多次听过这段录音。
But when he plays it for me, his reaction is visceral.
但当他为我演奏时，他的反应是发自内心的。
His face turns red.
他的脸变红了。
He's crying.
他在哭。
What is it about a random act of kindness that does this to us?
一个随机的善举对我们造成这样的影响是怎么回事？
Like Clay, I can't talk about the strangers who've helped me without being reduced to a puddle.
和克莱一样，我无法谈论那些帮助过我的陌生人，否则我就会沦为水坑。
I think it has to do with the fact that it feels so unearned.
我认为这与感觉如此不劳而获有关。
Like if a family member or a friend does something for me, I understand it, because they love me.
就像如果家人或朋友为我做某事，我会理解，因为他们爱我。
They care.
他们关心。
But if a stranger does it, it breaks my brain a little.
但如果是陌生人这样做，我的大脑就会有点崩溃。
That's what I think is happening to Clay.
我认为这就是克莱正在发生的事情。
It's weird to be so emotional about something that's so happy.
对如此快乐的事情如此情绪化是很奇怪的。
It's a great thing.
这是一件很棒的事情。
It's all happy.
一切都很开心。
I don't know why I cry about it.
我不知道为什么我会为此哭泣。
It's like I cry about it because it's like I believe in something again.
就好像我为此哭泣，因为就好像我再次相信了某些东西。
Like it makes you feel like a little kid or something?
就像它让你感觉自己像个小孩子什么的？
Yeah.
是的。
Because it's-- I mean, along the lines of this conversation, it's when you leave a church that has been your whole life, you start to feel like it means you can't believe in anything anymore.
因为我的意思是，按照这次谈话的思路，当你离开一个已经成为你一生的教会时，你开始觉得这意味着你不能再相信任何事情了。
And when something really incredible and good like this happens, it makes you believe again.
当像这样真正令人难以置信和美好的事情发生时，它会让你再次相信。
By the way, I called up Mark, asked him why he gave Clay the money all those years ago.
顺便说一句，我打电话给马克，问他为什么多年前给克莱钱。
To explain one of the biggest reasons, he told me a story about this time he went to Italy.
为了解释其中一个最大的原因，他给我讲了他这次去意大利的故事。
He had planned to stay with a new friend who'd recently moved to Rome.
他原计划和一位最近搬到罗马的新朋友住在一起。
But the guy totally flaked on him, and he had nowhere but expensive hotels to sleep.
但那家伙对他彻底崩溃了，他除了昂贵的酒店之外别无他处。
Mark didn't have that kind of money, so he called up this gay couple he had met his first night in Italy-- they ran a bar in town-- and asked them if they knew of a cheap hostel.
马克没有那么多钱，所以他打电话给他在意大利第一晚遇到的一对同性恋夫妇——他们在城里经营一家酒吧——并询问他们是否知道有便宜的旅馆。
Their response?
他们的反应？
Come stay with us.
来和我们一起住吧。
For 10 nights they hosted Mark, a complete stranger.
他们接待了一个完全陌生的马克长达十个晚上。
Mark says they were total gentlemen, trusting him in a way that frankly shocked him.
马克说他们都是十足的绅士，对他的信任让他坦白说感到震惊。
They gave him keys, told him he could come and go as he pleased.
他们给了他钥匙，告诉他可以随意出入。
He couldn't believe their generosity.
他简直不敢相信他们的慷慨。
And it changed him into the kind of guy who hands a stranger $200 and says, "Hey, go see this show.
这让他变成了那种递给陌生人 200 美元并说：“嘿，去看这个节目的人。
It'll change your life."
它会改变你的生活。”
Elna Baker is one of the producers of our show.
埃尔娜·贝克是我们节目的制片人之一。
This is one of the songs in the show that Clay is doing on Broadway right now.
这是克莱目前在百老汇表演的节目中的歌曲之一。
[MUSIC - "ANOTHER HUNDRED PEOPLE" BY STEPHEN SONDHEIM]
[音乐 - 斯蒂芬·桑德海姆的《另一百人》]
Act Three: Never Hear the End of It Ira Glass Act 3, "Never Hear the End of It." So we close out today's show with this story that is very on point with everything we've been talking about till now from Sean Cole.
第三幕：永远听不到它的结束 Ira Glass 第三幕，“永远听不到它的结束”。因此，我们用肖恩·科尔讲述的这个故事来结束今天的节目，这个故事与我们迄今为止所讨论的一切都非常切题。
This is one of my favorite stories to tell.
这是我最喜欢讲的故事之一。
I tell it at parties or to anyone who will listen.
我在聚会上或向任何愿意听的人讲这句话。
And since we're here talking about the nature of people and whether they're mostly good or mostly bad, I figured I'd tell it to you.
既然我们在这里谈论的是人的本性，以及他们大多是好人还是坏人，我想我应该告诉你。
Have you ever seen A Clockwork Orange, the Stanley Kubrick movie-- guys running around in bowler hats and jockstraps on the outside of their pants, committing acts of, quote unquote, "ultraviolence?" It's one of the most iconic films of the 20th century, set in a dystopian near-future where teenage hoodlums speak this stylized, Russified slang.
你有没有看过斯坦利·库布里克的电影《发条橙》——那些戴着圆顶硬礼帽、在裤子外面穿护体裤的家伙到处乱跑，做出“极端暴力”的行为？这是 20 世纪最具标志性的电影之一，背景设定在反乌托邦的近未来，青少年流氓说着这种风格化的俄罗斯俚语。
It's also intensely violent and deeply misogynist in ways I don't think I understood when I first saw it and obsessed over it.
它也充满了强烈的暴力和深深的厌恶女性的情绪，当我第一次看到它并沉迷于它时，我认为我无法理解它。
I was in my teens then, the same age that the main character Alex is supposed to be.
那时我十几岁，与主角亚历克斯的年龄相同。
There was me, that is Alex, and my three droogs, that is Pete, Georgie, and Dim.
其中有我，即亚历克斯，还有我的三个家伙，即皮特、乔吉和迪姆。
And we sat in the Korova Milk Bar trying to make up our rassoodocks what to do with the evening.
我们坐在科罗瓦牛奶吧里，想办法让我们的拉索多克们晚上做什么。
The thing is, the meaning of the story, what it says about the inherent goodness or badness of people, has been largely and grossly misunderstood, or at least the meaning that was originally intended by its creator, Anthony Burgess, the guy who wrote the novel the movie's based on.
问题是，这个故事的意义，它所讲述的人性的善恶，在很大程度上被严重误解了，或者至少是它的创作者安东尼·伯吉斯最初想要表达的意思，他是这部电影的原著小说的作者。
He talked about this a lot in his lifetime.
他一生中多次谈到这一点。
Although Kubrick made an interesting film out of it, the film wasn't quite accurate.
尽管库布里克用它拍了一部有趣的电影，但这部电影不太准确。
He didn't follow the book as he should have done.
他没有按照他应该做的那样遵循这本书。
He cut out the final chapter, for one thing.
一方面，他删掉了最后一章。
The final chapter, chapter 21.
最终章，第21章。
The film is actually really faithful to the book until that last part.
这部电影实际上非常忠实于原著，直到最后一部分。
But that last chapter radicalizes everything.
但最后一章使一切变得激进。
If you know the movie, you know the movie.
如果你知道这部电影，你就知道这部电影。
But if you don't, you at least need to know the plot of it for any of this to make sense.
但如果你不这样做，你至少需要知道它的情节才能让这一切变得有意义。
I'll try to summarize it as quick as I can.
我会尽快总结一下。
So Alex and his three droogs, meaning friends, they spend their nights getting hopped up on drug-infused milk and hurting people.
因此，亚历克斯和他的三个笨蛋，也就是朋友，整夜喝着注入毒品的牛奶，伤害别人。
They beat up a panhandler, steal a car, and run other cars off the road.
他们殴打乞丐，偷车，并将其他汽车赶出道路。
There's a pretty famous rape scene, which incidentally was inspired by Burgess's first wife getting assaulted, though not sexually, by a group of American soldiers.
有一个非常著名的强奸场景，顺便说一句，其灵感来自于伯吉斯的第一任妻子被一群美国士兵袭击，尽管不是性侵犯。
About a third of the way through, Alex accidentally murders someone during a break-in and goes to prison.
故事进行到三分之一时，亚历克斯在一次入室盗窃中意外谋杀了某人并入狱。
And after serving a couple years, the government chooses him for a new experimental type of aversion therapy.
服役几年后，政府选择他进行一种新的实验性厌恶疗法。
He'll do.
他会做的。
Sean Cole They give him this drug which makes him basically allergic to violence.
肖恩·科尔 他们给了他这种药物，这使他基本上对暴力过敏。
Any time he so much as pictures hitting someone, he's overwhelmed by nausea and dread, also whenever he hears the music of Beethoven, but that's another thing.
每当他想到要打人的时候，他都会感到恶心和恐惧，每当他听到贝多芬的音乐时也是如此，但那是另一回事了。
Then the government does this presentation where they trot out the new forcibly reformed Alex, subject him to insults, injury, sexual temptation, and in response all he can do is gag and retch.
然后政府做了这样的演示，他们展示了新的强制改造的亚历克斯，让他受到侮辱、伤害、性诱惑，而作为回应，他所能做的就是作呕和呕吐。
Then a priest in the audience leaps up to object with the operative word--
然后观众席上的一位牧师跳起来反对，并用了关键词——
Choice!
选择！
The boy has no real choice, does he?
这个男孩没有真正的选择，不是吗？
He ceases to be a wrongdoer.
他不再是一个不法之徒。
He ceases also to be a creature capable of moral choice.
他也不再是一个能够进行道德选择的生物。
Padre, these are subtleties.
神父，这些都是微妙之处。
Sean Cole Anyway, Alex gets out.
肖恩·科尔 无论如何，亚历克斯出去了。
A bunch of bad stuff happens.
发生了一堆不好的事情。
He tries to kill himself.
他试图自杀。
The government sees the whole thing as a PR nightmare and gives him an antidote to the treatment, transforming him back to his evil, remorseless, smashing-things self.
政府将整件事视为一场公关噩梦，并给了他治疗的解药，将他变回了邪恶、无情、粉碎一切的自我。
Also he can listen to Beethoven again.
他还可以再次聆听贝多芬的音乐。
I was cured, all right.
我已经痊愈了，好吧。
Sean Cole The end.
肖恩·科尔 结局。
It's bleak with a point that it's better to let people choose to be bad than to brainwash them into harmless robots, clockwork oranges, with no will of their own.
令人沮丧的是，让人们选择做坏事，比把他们洗脑成无害的机器人、发条橙子、没有自己的意志要好。
But in the book, the final chapter that wasn't in the movie, it changes the meaning of everything that's gone before it.
但在书中，也就是电影中没有的最后一章，它改变了之前发生的一切的意义。
In the final chapter Alex is back at the Korova Milk Bar with three new droogs, whole new gang.
在最后一章中，亚历克斯带着三个新的家伙、全新的帮派回到了科罗瓦牛奶吧。
But this time when they go out to stomp on random people, Alex hangs back.
但这一次，当他们出去随意践踏人时，亚历克斯却犹豫了。
Something's eating at him.
有什么东西在侵蚀他。
It's like he's bored with all the violence now, doesn't enjoy any of this like he used to.
就好像他现在厌倦了所有的暴力，不再像以前那样享受这一切。
He wanders into a coffee shop where he runs into a member of his old gang, Pete, and Pete's wife.
他漫步走进一家咖啡店，在那里遇到了他的老帮派成员皮特和皮特的妻子。
They look happy, living the quiet life.
他们看起来很幸福，过着平静的生活。
And Alex thinks, maybe that's what's missing.
亚历克斯认为，也许这就是我们所缺少的。
Maybe I should settle down, have a kid, hopefully a son.
也许我应该安定下来，生个孩子，希望是个儿子。
"I felt this bolshy big hollow inside my plott," he says, meaning his body.
“我感觉到我的情节里有一个巨大的空洞，”他说，指的是他的身体。
"Feeling very surprised too at myself.
“我自己也感到非常惊讶。
I knew what was happening, O, my brothers.
我知道发生了什么事，哦，我的兄弟们。
I was like growing up."
我就像长大了一样。”
When I read that, it was like the top of my head blew off.
当我读到这句话时，我的头顶就像被炸掉了。
Alex isn't inherently evil.
亚历克斯本质上并不是邪恶的。
He didn't just go back to doing all the bad stuff he used to do.
他并没有回去做他以前做过的所有坏事。
And he didn't need an experimental drug to reform him.
而且他不需要实验药物来改造他。
He just needed time to get there on his own.
他只是需要时间自己到达那里。
I was in my early 20s when I picked up the novel, so some years after I saw the movie.
我读这本小说时才二十岁出头，几年后我才看了这部电影。
And the feeling was like I'd unfairly underestimated someone for a long time.
感觉就像我长期以来不公平地低估了某人。
It's also an ending that comports more with reality.
这也是一个比较符合现实的结局。
There's research that shows a big reason people disengage from gang life is just that they get older, age out of it.
有研究表明，人们脱离帮派生活的一个重要原因是他们随着年龄的增长，逐渐摆脱了帮派生活。
But more than that, the two endings represent two completely different ways of looking at the world.
但更重要的是，这两个结局代表了两种完全不同的看待世界的方式。
One is saying that people can change, even the worst people, whereas the other is saying that evil is evil, irredeemably.
一种说法是，人是可以改变的，即使是最坏的人，而另一种说法是，邪恶就是邪恶，无可救药。
And those two worldviews, they're baked into this ridiculous backstory about that final chapter.
这两种世界观，它们被融入到最后一章的荒谬背景故事中。
According to Burgess, when the book was published here in the States, the publisher told him they wouldn't put it out unless they could cut chapter 21.
据伯吉斯说，当这本书在美国出版时，出版商告诉他，除非他们能删掉第 21 章，否则他们不会出版这本书。
This was way before the movie was optioned.
这是在电影被选择之前很久的事了。
It was still just a novel.
这仍然只是一本小说。
They said the optimistic ending was Pollyanna-ish, naive, and bland.
他们说乐观的结局是盲目乐观、天真和平淡的。
They were like, we Americans are tougher than you Brits.
他们说，我们美国人比你们英国人更强硬。
We can handle a nihilistic ending.
我们可以处理虚无主义的结局。
Some people are just beyond hope.
有些人已经没有希望了。
That's more realistic.
这更现实。
Burgess needed money back then, he said.
伯吉斯当时需要钱，他说。
If the only way to sell the story to Americans was to lop off its conclusion, then so be it.
如果向美国人推销这个故事的唯一方法就是删去结论，那就这样吧。
So now there were two Clockwork Oranges in the world with two different endings depending on where you lived.
所以现在世界上有两种发条橙，根据你住在哪里，有两种不同的结局。
Burgess writes about this whole mishigas and how he felt about it in an introduction to a later edition of the book.
伯吉斯在本书后续版本的介绍中写下了整个 mishigas 以及他对此的感受。
I just want to read-- this is probably my favorite part of what he says.
我只是想读——这可能是他所说的我最喜欢的部分。
"Now, when Stanley Kubrick made his film, though he made it in England, he followed the American version and, so it seemed to his audiences outside America, ended the story somewhat prematurely.
“现在，当斯坦利·库布里克拍摄他的电影时，尽管他是在英国拍摄的，但他遵循的是美国版本，因此在美国以外的观众看来，故事的结局有些过早。
Audiences did not exactly clamor for their money back, but they wondered why Kubrick left out the denouement.
观众并没有强烈要求退款，但他们想知道为什么库布里克省略了结局。
People wrote to me about this.
人们写信给我谈论此事。
Indeed, much of my later life has been expended on Xeroxing statements of intention and the frustration of intention while both Kubrick and the New York publisher coolly bask in the rewards of their misdemeanor.
事实上，我晚年的大部分时间都花在复印意图陈述和意图的挫败上，而库布里克和纽约出版商却冷静地享受着他们的轻罪的回报。
Life is, of course, terrible."
生活当然是可怕的。”
It's funny, but it was also endlessly frustrating to Burgess.
这很有趣，但也让伯吉斯感到无尽的沮丧。
He wrote that he didn't think the American edition and thus the movie was a fair depiction of human life.
他写道，他不认为美国版的电影是对人类生活的公平描绘。
It's as inhuman to be 100% evil as it is to be 100% good.
100%邪恶和100%善良一样不人道。
The two need to coexist.
两者需要共存。
He was unequivocal about that.
他对此毫不含糊。
Further, when the film came out, there was a moral panic about it, both in the UK and here in the States.
此外，当这部电影上映时，在英国和美国都引发了道德恐慌。
And it wasn't just the violence people were upset about.
人们感到不安的不仅仅是暴力。
It was the ending.
这就是结局。
An editor for The New York Times wrote in the Arts and Leisure section of the paper, "The thesis that man is irretrievably bad and corrupt is the essence of fascism." I can't help but think how all of this might have been different if that last chapter had never been cut.
《纽约时报》的一位编辑在该报的艺术与休闲版块写道：“人类无可挽回地邪恶和腐败的论点是法西斯主义的本质。”我忍不住想，如果最后一章从未被删减，这一切可能会有所不同。
And that, for years, was everything I knew.
多年来，这就是我所知道的一切。
But then recently, as I was getting ready to tell all of this to you, O, my brothers, I thought I should actually do some research, make sure I got my facts straight.
但最近，当我准备向你们讲述这一切时，哦，我的兄弟们，我想我实际上应该做一些研究，确保我弄清了事实。
And as with A Clockwork Orange itself, it turns out there's a whole other chapter to this saga, one that I didn't know existed.
就像《发条橙》本身一样，这个传奇故事还有另外一章，我不知道它的存在。
To start with, that quote from Burgess I read earlier that ends with "Life is, of course, terrible."
首先，我之前读过伯吉斯的那句话，其结尾是“生活当然是可怕的”。
That's a very entertaining account of the story.
这是一个非常有趣的故事叙述。
I think it's inaccurate in various ways.
我认为它在很多方面都是不准确的。
This is Andrew Biswell.
这是安德鲁·比斯韦尔。
He's spent more than 25 years researching Burgess in part for his aptly titled book The Real Life of Anthony Burgess.
他花了超过 25 年的时间来研究伯吉斯，部分原因是为了写出他的书《安东尼·伯吉斯的真实生活》（The Real Life of Anthony Burgess）。
It wasn't always the easiest job.
这并不总是最容易的工作。
He would embroider, and he would be more concerned with telling a good story than with sticking to factual accuracy.
他会绣花，他会更关心讲一个好故事，而不是坚持事实的准确性。
Now, I'd been going through the manuscript of A Clockwork Orange as part of my research into Burgess.
现在，我正在阅读《发条橙》的手稿，作为我对伯吉斯研究的一部分。
The original manuscript, the one Burgess sent around to his editors in England and America.
原始手稿，伯吉斯发送给他在英国和美国的编辑的那一份。
And just turning the pages and noting any annotations on the typescript.
只需翻页并记下打字稿上的任何注释即可。
And I remember coming to this note in his own handwriting, which says at the end of chapter 20, "Should we end here?"
我记得他亲笔写下这张纸条，在第 20 章末尾写道：“我们应该在这里结束吗？”
"Should we end here?
“我们应该到这里结束吗？
An optional "epilogue" follows." "Epilogue" is in quotes.
接下来是可选的“尾声”。” “结语”用引号引起来。
Again, this was at the end of the second-to-last chapter, where Alex turns bad again.
同样，这是在倒数第二章的结尾，亚历克斯再次变坏。
I nearly fell off my chair.
我差点从椅子上摔下来。
I was very surprised, because I'd grown up with the Burgess introductions and commentaries on his book.
我非常惊讶，因为我是看着伯吉斯对他的书的介绍和评论长大的。
And up until that point, I'd been inclined to believe them.
直到那时，我一直倾向于相信他们。
And this question, "Should we end here?" I was surprised by the level of doubt.
还有这个问题，“我们应该到这里结束吗？”我对怀疑的程度感到惊讶。
Surprised because Burgess publicly was so emphatic that he had been forced to cut the last chapter and that it was the wrong decision.
令人惊讶的是，伯吉斯公开如此强调他被迫删去最后一章，这是一个错误的决定。
And when Andrew looked into it further, he found that Burgess's editor in America, Eric Swenson, never insisted on scrapping the last chapter.
当安德鲁进一步研究时，他发现伯吉斯在美国的编辑埃里克·斯文森（Eric Swenson）从来没有坚持取消最后一章。
Yes, he thought it was Pollyanna-ish and, quote, "unconvincing," but getting rid of it wasn't a condition of publication.
是的，他认为这是盲目乐观的，并且，引用，“缺乏说服力”，但摆脱它并不是出版的条件。
Not only that, this guy Swenson said Burgess agreed with his opinion and that Burgess told him he'd only added the 21st chapter because the British publisher wanted a happy ending.
不仅如此，斯文森这个家伙还说伯吉斯同意他的观点，伯吉斯告诉他，他只添加了第21章，因为英国出版商想要一个幸福的结局。
Also Burgess wrote his own screenplay for A Clockwork Orange that ended at the same place Kubrick's screenplay did, no redemption.
伯吉斯还为《发条橙》写了自己的剧本，结局与库布里克的剧本相同，没有救赎。
And then years later, Burgess wrote a musical, yes, a musical version of the story, which reverted back to the longer redemptive ending and took it even further.
几年后，伯吉斯写了一部音乐剧，是的，这个故事的音乐剧版本，它回归到更长的救赎结局，并进一步发展。
Alex goes off with his girlfriend, and they're going to get married.
亚历克斯和他的女朋友出去了，他们要结婚了。
Is she a character, or is she offstage somewhere?
她是一个角色，还是在舞台外的某个地方？
No, no. She appears and speaks.
不，不。她出现并说话。
She's called Marty.
她叫马蒂。
[LAUGHS] Andrew Biswell And then the play has a prologue in the Garden of Eden, where Alex and Marty play Adam and Eve.
[笑]安德鲁·比斯韦尔 然后这部剧在伊甸园里有一个序幕，亚历克斯和马蒂扮演亚当和夏娃。
It's very confusing.
这很令人困惑。
The whole thing is messy.
整个事情很混乱。
It's strange that he tries to pin this on other people, whereas the reality is that it's like the good angel and the evil angel are dictating sort of different endings to him.
奇怪的是，他试图将这一点归咎于其他人，而现实是，这就像善良的天使和邪恶的天使正在向他指定不同的结局。
So in the end, which ending do you think that Burgess thought of as the better ending?
那么最后，你认为伯吉斯认为哪个结局是更好的结局呢？
By the time you get to the 1980s and he's making his stage adaptation, he's coming down in favor of chapter 21 as the correct or the authorized ending.
当你进入 20 世纪 80 年代，他正在进行舞台改编时，他开始支持第 21 章作为正确或授权的结局。
And what does that say, do you think, about his worldview, like about what he believed about the true nature of human beings?
您认为这说明了他的世界观，比如他对人类真实本性的看法吗？
Well, the big thing that had changed in his life was that he had a son by his second marriage and a very wayward son.
嗯，他生活中最大的改变就是他第二次结婚生了一个儿子，而且是一个非常任性的儿子。
He was, I suppose, worried that this person should do well in the world.
我想他是担心这个人在这个世界上能过得好。
Yeah.
是的。
I suppose Burgess in the '80s, he's much more of a protective father figure.
我想八十年代的伯吉斯，他更像是一个保护性的父亲形象。
Which, if that's the reason, makes so much sense.
如果这就是原因的话，那就很有意义了。
When you have a kid, especially one you're worried won't turn out well, you have to believe people can change like Alex finally changed, dreaming of his own son.
当你有了一个孩子，尤其是你担心孩子不会有好结果时，你必须相信人们可以改变，就像亚历克斯最终改变一样，梦想着自己的儿子。
It's like they literally ended up on the same page, Burgess and Alex.
伯吉斯和亚历克斯就好像他们最终达成了共识。
One of them happened to have typed out that page while the other danced across it in a jockstrap and suspenders.
其中一个碰巧打出了那一页，而另一个穿着下体背带在上面跳舞。
They both grew up.
他们都长大了。
Funnily, Andrew Biswell says he prefers the shorter ending.
有趣的是，安德鲁·比斯韦尔说他更喜欢较短的结局。
Just thinks it makes for a tougher book, although he goes back and forth, he says.
他说，尽管他来来回回，但他认为这本书会变得更难。
Depends on what day you ask him.
取决于你哪天问他。
Me, I come down where Burgess ultimately did.
我，我来到了伯吉斯最终所做的地方。
I like believing that we can grow into better versions of ourselves.
我喜欢相信我们可以成长为更好的自己。
And besides all that, you get to see Alex walk off into the sunset.
除此之外，你还可以看到亚历克斯走进夕阳。
On the last page he says, "Farewell from your little droog." Should we end here?
在最后一页，他说：“再见了，你的小笨蛋。”我们应该到这里结束吗？
Sean Cole is one of the producers of our show.
肖恩·科尔是我们节目的制片人之一。
[MUSIC - "TRY A LITTLE KINDNESS" BY GLEN CAMPBELL]
[音乐 - 格伦·坎贝尔的《尝试一点善意》]
Credits Ira Glass Our program was produced today by Elna Baker.
图片来源 Ira Glass 今天我们的节目由 Elna Baker 制作。
The people who put our show together today include Bim Adewunmi, Chris Benderev, Zoe Chace, Sean Cole, Michal Comite, Kyla Jones, Tobin Low, Michelle Navarro, Stowe Nelson, Katherine Rae Mondo, Will Peischel, Nadia Reiman, Ryan Rumery, Alissa Shipp, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, Nancy Updike, Julie Whitaker, and Diane Wu.
今天节目的制作人包括 Bim Adewunmi、Chris Benderev、Zoe Chace、Sean Cole、Michal Comite、Kyla Jones、Tobin Low、Michelle Navarro、Stowe Nelson、Katherine Rae Mondo、Will Peischel、Nadia Reiman、Ryan Rumery、Alissa Shipp、Christopher Swetala、Matt Tierney、Nancy Updike、Julie Whitaker 和 Diane Wu。
Our managing editor is Sarah Abdurrahman.
我们的总编辑是萨拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sarah Abdurrahman)。
Our senior editor is David Kestenbaum.
我们的高级编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。
Our executive editor is Emanuele Berry.
我们的执行编辑是 Emanuele Berry。
Special thanks today to Thomas Reid.
今天特别感谢托马斯·里德。
Our website, ThisAmericanLife.org, where you can stream our archive of over 700 episodes for absolutely free.
我们的网站 ThisAmericanLife.org，您可以在其中完全免费地观看我们的 700 多集档案。
Also there's videos.
还有视频。
There's lists of favorite shows, if you're looking for something to listen on a long car trip.
如果您想在长途汽车旅行中收听一些节目，这里有您最喜爱的节目列表。
Again, ThisAmericanLife.org.
再次，ThisAmericanLife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks as always to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们计划的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
He went this week to a Gwen Stefani concert.
他本周去参加了格温·史蒂芬妮的演唱会。
His review?
他的评论？
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
This American Life This American Life 与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。