771: The Parents Step In - This American Life

You are using an outdated browser.

您正在使用过时的浏览器。

Please upgrade your browser or activate Google Chrome Frame to improve your experience.

请升级您的浏览器或激活 Google Chrome 浏览器内嵌框架以改善您的体验。

Sign up for a free Life Partners trial, and you can watch the video “A Night of Stories and Improv.”

注册免费试用《Life Partners》，您可以观看视频“故事与即兴表演之夜”。

00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #771 | May 27, 2022 771: The Parents Step In Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.

00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 771 集 | 2022 年 5 月 27 日 771：父母介入 注意：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。

If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.

如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。

Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.

文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。

Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.

请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。

Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass It's This American Life from WBEZ Chicago.

序言：序言 Ira Glass 这是芝加哥 WBEZ 的美国生活。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

So there's a whole infrastructure that springs into action when a mass shooting happens.

因此，当大规模枪击事件发生时，整个基础设施就会启动。

There's the police and SWAT teams, of course, and the Red Cross, the Billy Graham prayer truck, therapy dogs.

当然，还有警察和特警队，还有红十字会、葛培理祈祷车和治疗犬。

And there's this couple who shows up, this couple whose daughter died in a mass shooting.

有一对夫妇出现了，这对夫妇的女儿在大规模枪击事件中丧生。

And they come, and what they do seems to be very effective.

他们来了，而且他们所做的事情似乎非常有效。

I don't need to tell you that our government has utterly failed at any kind of response to stop school shootings and mass shootings.

我不需要告诉你，我们的政府在制止校园枪击和大规模枪击事件方面完全失败了。

In the wake of that, that nothingness, that non-response, parents of children who've died have stepped in in various ways.

在此之后，那种虚无、那种无反应，死去孩子的父母以各种方式介入。

Today, on our show, we have two stories for you about parents like these.

今天，在我们的节目中，我们为您带来两个关于这样的父母的故事。

In the second half hour of our show, we have a dad from Sandy Hook, who jumped into action after his son was killed, just took extraordinary measures, and got results.

在我们节目的后半小时，我们有一位来自桑迪胡克的父亲，他在儿子被杀后立即采取行动，采取了非常措施，并取得了成果。

But we're going to begin with this story about that couple, Sandy and Lonnie Phillips.

但我们将从桑迪·菲利普斯和朗尼·菲利普斯这对夫妇的故事开始。

They're out in Uvalde, Texas this week.

他们本周在德克萨斯州尤瓦尔迪外出。

They headed there straight from Buffalo, where, of course, 10 people were killed earlier this month in a grocery store.

他们直接从布法罗前往那里，当然，本月早些时候，布法罗的一家杂货店有 10 人被杀。

Their daughter, Jessi, died back in 2012 when a gunman opened fire in a movie theater in Aurora, Colorado.

2012 年，一名枪手在科罗拉多州奥罗拉市的一家电影院开枪，他们的女儿杰西 (Jessi) 身亡。

And since then, they've organized their lives to be able to reach out to other parents like themselves.

从那时起，他们就开始组织自己的生活，以便能够接触到像他们一样的其他父母。

We did this story back in 2018, right after a school shooting in Santa Fe, Texas.

我们于 2018 年拍摄了这个故事，当时德克萨斯州圣达菲发生了一起校园枪击事件。

But really, nothing has changed since we first heard this.

但实际上，自从我们第一次听到这个消息以来，一切都没有改变。

I was re-listening to this story this week, and one thing that really hit me is how deeply it takes you into the place that-- I don't know, speaking for myself, I find myself thinking about all the time right now, which is what the parents and families in Uvalde, Texas are going through.

这周我重新听了这个故事，真正让我震惊的一件事是，它把你带入了多么深的地方——我不知道，就我自己而言，我发现自己现在一直在思考，这就是德克萨斯州尤瓦尔迪的父母和家庭正在经历的事情。

One of our producers, Miki Meek, put this together and spent time with Phillipses.

我们的制作人之一米基·米克 (Miki Meek) 将这些内容放在一起，并与菲利普斯共度时光。

Sandy and Lonnie Phillips have traveled to eight mass shootings since Aurora.

自奥罗拉事件以来，桑迪·菲利普斯和朗尼·菲利普斯已经去过八次大规模枪击事件。

It started with Sandy Hook, then Isla Vista, San Bernardino, Orlando, Las Vegas, Sutherland Springs, Parkland, and then Santa Fe, Texas, which is where I met up with them in May, right after a student walked into the high school and killed 10 people.

首先是桑迪胡克，然后是维斯塔岛、圣贝纳迪诺、奥兰多、拉斯维加斯、萨瑟兰温泉、帕克兰，然后是德克萨斯州圣达菲，我五月份在那里与他们会面，当时一名学生走进高中杀害了 10 人。

They pulled up in front of the school in their truck.

他们开着卡车停在学校门口。

Even though they've done this a lot, Sandy told me the discomfort and awkwardness they feel about showing up like this in a community has never gone away.

尽管他们已经这样做了很多次，但桑迪告诉我，他们在社区中这样出现的不适和尴尬从未消失。

Are you ready for this?

你准备好了吗？

Miki Meek But in Santa Fe, they just launched themselves in anyway.

米基·米克 (Miki Meek) 但在圣达菲，他们无论如何都只是发起了自己的行动。

They're each wearing a big button with a photo of their daughter, Jessi, smiling.

他们每个人都戴着一个大纽扣，上面有他们女儿杰西微笑的照片。

A memorial had just gone up on a big grassy lawn out front.

前面的大草坪上刚刚矗立着一座纪念碑。

There were 10 wood crosses, each with a red heart and a photo of the student or teacher who'd been killed.

有十个木十字架，每个十字架上都有一颗红心和一张被杀的学生或老师的照片。

People were starting to leave teddy bears, flowers, and balloons.

人们开始留下泰迪熊、鲜花和气球。

What the Phillips do here is just talk to whoever wants to talk.

菲利普斯在这里所做的就是与任何想说话的人交谈。

They figure that'll lead them to families they might be useful to.

他们认为这将引导他们找到可能对他们有用的家庭。

And within seconds of getting out of their truck, they bump into a dazed teenage girl, wearing shorts and a Santa Fe High School soccer T-shirt.

下了卡车后几秒钟，他们就撞上了一名茫然的少女，她穿着短裤和圣达菲高中足球 T 恤。

I'm not OK.

我不太好。

Miki Meek And here, the sound gets muffled because Sandy's tiny mic gets crushed when they hug.

Miki Meek 在这里，声音变得低沉，因为桑迪的小麦克风在他们拥抱时被压碎了。

It's the main sound I remember from that day.

这是我记得那天的主要声音。

[INAUDIBLE] Sandy Phillips We're just so sorry this has happened to you, and your friends, and your families, and your community.

[听不清] 桑迪·菲利普斯 我们对发生在您、您的朋友、您的家人和您的社区身上的事情感到非常抱歉。

Thank you so much.

太感谢了。

Miki Meek Another girl, a junior with light brown hair pulled back into a ponytail, walks up to them and stares at their buttons

米基·米克 (Miki Meek) 另一个女孩，浅棕色头发向后扎成马尾辫，走到他们面前，盯着他们的纽扣

We lost our daughter in a mass shooting six years ago.

六年前，我们在一场大规模枪击事件中失去了女儿。

She's pretty.

她很漂亮。

Sandy Phillips Thank you.

桑迪·菲利普斯 谢谢你。

She is.

她是。

Inside and out, she was lovely, just like your friends.

从里到外，她都很可爱，就像你的朋友一样。

Sandy is good at making people feel comfortable.

桑迪善于让人感到舒服。

She has a round, warm face, framed by a gray bob.

她有一张温暖的圆脸，留着灰色的短发。

She's maternal and keeps her comments caring and brief.

她充满母性，她的评论总是充满关怀和简短。

Lonnie stands right next to Sandy with his arm around her.

朗尼站在桑迪旁边，手臂搂着她。

Sandy's the one who mostly talks to the kids, but he's always by her side, listening intently.

桑迪是最常和孩子们说话的人，但他总是在她身边，专心地听。

His presence helps her do this.

他的存在帮助她做到了这一点。

He looks out for her, sometimes running ahead to start the AC in their truck before she climbs in.

他会照顾她，有时会在她上车之前跑到前面启动卡车上的空调。

Hi, Tracy.

嗨，特雷西。

Miki Meek I was surprised at how quickly people opened up to the Phillipses.

米基·米克（Miki Meek） 我对人们对菲利普斯夫妇敞开心扉的速度感到惊讶。

The girl who said "Jessi" was pretty.

那个叫“杰西”的女孩很漂亮。

She started telling them that she escaped the shooting by hiding behind a building with other students.

她开始告诉他们，她和其他学生躲在一栋大楼后面，躲过了枪击事件。

Now she just wanted to stay at home.

现在她只想待在家里。

But at home, all she could think about was the shooting.

但在家里，她满脑子都是枪击事件。

Scenes from that day kept re-playing through her head.

那天的情景不断地在她脑海中回放。

Sandy doesn't miss a beat here.

桑迪在这里不会错过任何一个节拍。

Over at the victims' assistance, they have trauma therapists over there.

在受害者的帮助下，他们那里有创伤治疗师。

I recommend strongly that any of you kids really think about stopping by the victims' assistance--

我强烈建议你们中的任何一个孩子都认真考虑一下向受害者提供援助——

I will.

我会的。

--and do some trauma therapy.

——并进行一些创伤治疗。

OK, honey.

好的亲爱的。

Thank you so much.

太感谢了。

Sandy Phillips You're welcome.

桑迪·菲利普斯 不客气。

You're welcome.

不客气。

The Phillipses don't make money off this.

菲利普斯家族不靠这个赚钱。

They're volunteers.

他们是志愿者。

And they're not wealthy either.

而且他们也不富裕。

They're retirees living in a 245-square-foot trailer, surviving off of modest savings and Social Security.

他们是住在 245 平方英尺拖车里的退休人员，靠微薄的积蓄和社会保障度日。

Sandy is 68 and used to work in tourism for the city of San Antonio.

桑迪现年 68 岁，曾在圣安东尼奥市从事旅游业工作。

And Lonnie is 74.

朗尼已经74岁了。

He used to own some car lots.

他曾经拥有一些车位。

[INAUDIBLE] Sandy Phillips Please do.

[听不清] 桑迪·菲利普斯 请这样做。

Let them know that we-- [INAUDIBLE]

让他们知道我们——[听不清]

One thing I quickly realize going to Santa Fe is that there are now so many of these mass shootings that they become grim reunions for all the people who show up to them as part of their jobs or volunteer work.

去圣达菲后，我很快意识到一件事是，现在发生了如此多的大规模枪击事件，对于所有因工作或志愿工作而出现在他们面前的人来说，它们变成了可怕的团聚。

Are you from Las Vegas?

你来自拉斯维加斯吗？

Miki Meek Sandy and Lonnie ran into an emergency responder from the Las Vegas shooting, and then bumped into this other guy who travels around, putting up all those white crosses you see at almost every mass shooting.

米基·米克·桑迪（Miki Meek Sandy）和朗尼（Lonnie）遇到了拉斯维加斯枪击事件中的一名紧急救援人员，然后又遇到了另一个四处走动的人，他几乎在每次大规模枪击事件中都挂起了白色十字架。

He made one for their daughter, Jessi, in Aurora too.

他也在奥罗拉为他们的女儿杰西做了一件。

Standing on the patchy brown grass next to the crosses, Lonnie interrupted him to do this thing he and Sandy do a lot.

朗尼站在十字架旁边杂乱的棕色草地上，打断了他，让他做这件他和桑迪经常做的事情。

Sign-- 1:11.

标志——1:11。

Miki Meek They suddenly call out the time.

米基·米克 他们突然喊出了时间。

We have a 1:11 and 11:11, and we're talking to you at 1:11, so it's a sign from our daughter.

我们有 1:11 和 11:11，我们在 1:11 跟你说话，所以这是我们女儿的信号。

11:11 is a thing.

11点11分是一件事。

A lot of people see it as an auspicious sign, or a time to make a wish.

很多人将其视为吉祥的征兆，或者是许愿的时刻。

And it was a lyric in one of Jessi's favorite songs.

这是杰西最喜欢的歌曲之一中的歌词。

So if we get 11:11 twice a day, we know we really had a good day.

因此，如果我们每天两次得到 11:11，我们就知道我们真的度过了美好的一天。

They told me, I know it's silly, but I take it as a hello or a God wink.

他们告诉我，我知道这很愚蠢，但我将其视为打招呼或上帝眨眼。

It helps.

它有帮助。

What's your name?

你叫什么名字？

Cindy Evans Cindy Evans.

辛迪·埃文斯 辛迪·埃文斯。

Cindy?

辛迪？

Cindy?

辛迪？

Cindy Evans My son was in the high school here.

辛迪·埃文斯 我儿子在这里上高中。

Oh, I'm so sorry.

哦，我很抱歉。

Miki Meek As the day went on, people kept dropping by the memorial in front of the high school.

米基·米克 (Miki Meek) 随着时间一天天过去，人们不断来到高中前的纪念馆。

Parents and students stood huddled together, staring at the crosses or writing messages on them.

家长和学生挤在一起，盯着十字架，或者在上面写下信息。

It was quiet, and hot, and still.

周围很安静、很热、也很平静。

There was a low generator hum from the gigantic Billy Graham ministry truck set up in the parking lot.

停在停车场的巨大的比利·格雷厄姆事工卡车发出低沉的发电机嗡嗡声。

And then, all of a sudden, this young guy started wailing.

然后，突然，这个年轻人开始嚎啕大哭。

Sandy made a beeline for him.

桑迪径直朝他走去。

It's too much, man.

太多了，伙计。

It's too dang much.

实在是太过分了。

I'm sorry--

对不起——

He immediately threw his arms around her.

他立刻张开双臂搂住她。

[INAUDIBLE] why this thing keeps happening.

[听不清]为什么这件事不断发生。

Oh, here, here, here, here, here.

哦，这里，这里，这里，这里，这里。

Put your arms around me.

用你的双臂搂住我。

[SOBBING] Sandy Phillips It's OK.

[抽泣]桑迪·菲利普斯 没关系。

It's OK-- it's not OK, it's not OK.

没关系——不行，不行。

Let it go, let it go, let it go, let it go, let it go.

放手吧，放手吧，放手吧，放手吧，放手吧。

Just cry your heart out.

只是把你的心哭出来。

Cry your heart out and get your anger out.

把你的心哭出来，发泄你的愤怒。

I'm here.

我在这儿。

I'm here.

我在这儿。

I'm here.

我在这儿。

[SOBBING] Sandy Phillips I'm so sorry.

[抽泣] 桑迪·菲利普斯 我很抱歉。

Oh, god, I'm so sorry.

哦，天哪，我很抱歉。

It makes me wish I could have done something.

这让我希望我能做点什么。

OK.

好的。

Yeah, it's OK, honey.

是的，没关系，亲爱的。

You're doing it now.

你现在正在做。

OK?

好的？

He graduated last year.

他去年毕业了。

There were crosses set up for three people he knew well.

为三个他熟悉的人设立了十字架。

One of them was a teacher named Ms. Perkins, who he really loved.

其中一位是一位名叫帕金斯女士的老师，他非常喜欢她。

He said she always tried to be strict with him, but could never keep up that front for very long.

他说她总是试图对他严格，但永远无法长期保持这种态度。

[SOBBING] Sandy Phillips Take a nice, deep breath.

[抽泣]桑迪·菲利普斯 深吸一口气。

[SOB] Sandy Phillips OK.

[SOB] 桑迪·菲利普斯 好的。

OK.

好的。

Breathe with me.

和我一起呼吸。

After a few minutes, he's caught his breath enough to talk.

几分钟后，他终于平复了呼吸，可以说话了。

He tells Sandy he wants the shootings to stop.

他告诉桑迪他希望枪击事件停止。

He wants to take action somehow.

他想采取某种行动。

And then he suddenly switches gears and starts spilling out his feelings about guns and gun control.

然后他突然转变态度，开始吐露他对枪支和枪支管制的感受。

Nowadays, with the violence that is going on in this world, taking guns away is not going to change that.

如今，随着这个世界上不断发生的暴力事件，拿走枪支并不能改变这一点。

Because it's just like drugs.

因为它就像毒品一样。

They make drugs illegal, and people are still able to get drugs.

他们将毒品定为非法，但人们仍然可以获得毒品。

He plans to get a concealed handgun license when he turns 21 later this year.

他计划在今年晚些时候年满 21 岁时获得隐蔽手枪执照。

The Phillips are actually gun owners too.

菲利普斯家族实际上也是枪支拥有者。

They have a 12-gauge shotgun.

他们有一把 12 号霰弹枪。

They believe in the Second Amendment.

他们相信第二修正案。

But they're also advocates for universal background checks, and tight regulations on the types of guns, ammunition, and accessories-- like bump stocks-- a person can buy.

但他们也提倡进行普遍的背景调查，并对人们可以购买的枪支、弹药和配件（如撞火枪托）的类型进行严格规定。

However, Sandy says they don't push their political beliefs on survivors when they're doing outreach.

然而，桑迪表示，他们在进行外展活动时不会将自己的政治信仰强加给幸存者。

Their primary goal is to support.

他们的主要目标是支持。

But it's impossible for grieving parents to avoid the politics around guns.

但悲伤的父母不可能避免围绕枪支的政治。

There's a whole movement of conspiracy theorists who believe that the US government stages mass shootings to make guns look bad.

阴谋论者发起了一场运动，他们认为美国政府发动大规模枪击事件是为了让枪支看起来很糟糕。

We were told by Alex Jones that our daughter never existed.

亚历克斯·琼斯告诉我们，我们的女儿根本不存在。

Alex Jones, of course, is famous for saying that mass shootings are fake.

当然，亚历克斯·琼斯因说大规模枪击事件是假的而闻名。

He's now a defendant in several defamation lawsuits.

他现在是几起诽谤诉讼的被告。

When the Phillips ran into him face-to-face at a gun control event, he accused them of inventing their entire story.

当菲利普斯夫妇在一次枪支管制活动中面对面遇到他时，他指责他们编造了整个故事。

And then two minutes later, he's saying, your daughter's still alive, and she's living in the Bahamas, and she's living the high life, and you're crisis actors, and you're paid by the Obama administration, and da, da, da.

两分钟后，他说，你的女儿还活着，她住在巴哈马群岛，过着上流的生活，而你们是危机行动者，奥巴马政府付钱给你们，哒哒哒。

And I'm listening to him, just going, you are so absolutely crazy.

我正在听他说，你简直太疯狂了。

Lonnie got into it with Jones, stood right in front of him.

朗尼和琼斯一起参与其中，就站在他面前。

It looked like a shoving match was about to start, until Sandy stepped in and broke it up.

看起来一场推搡比赛即将开始，直到桑迪介入并打破了局面。

I reached out to Jones through one of his lawyers, who declined to comment.

我通过琼斯的一位律师联系了他，但他拒绝发表评论。

The conspiracy theorists, known as truthers or hoaxers, troll families of victims on social media immediately after any mass shooting.

阴谋论者，被称为真相者或骗子，在大规模枪击事件发生后立即在社交媒体上对受害者家属进行恶搞。

This can get dangerous.

这可能会很危险。

After the Phillips' son gave interviews in Aurora, he got death threats and had to get the FBI involved.

菲利普斯的儿子在奥罗拉接受采访后，收到死亡威胁，不得不让联邦调查局介入。

The man who was threatening him ended up in jail.

威胁他的人最终入狱。

So hoaxers are one of the things the Phillips warn parents about.

因此，骗子是菲利普斯警告家长的事情之一。

They tell families to brace themselves.

他们告诉家人要做好准备。

After watching Lonnie and Sandy in Santa Fe, I wondered why in the world they were throwing themselves back into this setting, reliving their worst moment over and over again.

看完朗尼和桑迪在圣达菲的表演后，我想知道为什么他们要把自己扔回这个环境，一遍又一遍地重温他们最糟糕的时刻。

The answer, of course, starts with their daughter's shooting.

答案当然要从他们女儿的枪击案说起。

They got the news in the middle of the night when they were asleep at their home in Texas.

他们是在半夜在德克萨斯州的家中睡觉时得知这个消息的。

This was back in 2012, and their daughter Jessi was in college at the time.

那是在 2012 年，他们的女儿 Jessi 当时正在上大学。

She had gone to see the new Batman movie, The Dark Knight Rises, with one of her friends at a multiplex in Aurora, Colorado.

她和一位朋友一起去科罗拉多州奥罗拉市的一家影院观看了新的蝙蝠侠电影《黑暗骑士崛起》。

About a half hour after the movie started, Jessi's friend called Sandy from the theater.

电影开始大约半小时后，杰西的朋友从剧院给桑迪打电话。

The minute I picked up the phone there was [SIGHS] screaming-- just [SIGHS] horrible screaming in the background, and panic.

我一拿起电话，就有[叹气]尖叫声——背景里只有[叹气]可怕的尖叫声，还有恐慌。

And he said, there's been a shooting.

他说，发生了枪击事件。

And I was like, what is he talking about?

我当时想，他在说什么？

Because Jessi had been at a mall in Toronto almost seven weeks before where there was a mass shooting.

因为杰西在发生大规模枪击事件的七周前曾去过多伦多的一家购物中心。

This was a coincidence.

这是一个巧合。

Jessi had left a food court in a mall just three minutes before a man walked in and opened fire.

杰西离开商场的美食广场仅三分钟，一名男子走进并开枪。

So my first thought was, this isn't funny, you know.

所以我的第一个想法是，这并不好笑，你知道。

But he's not a prankster.

但他不是一个爱恶作剧的人。

And I said, are you OK?

我说，你还好吗？

And he said, I think I've been hit twice.

他说，我想我已经被击中两次了。

And it was when he said that that I went, why isn't Jessi calling?

当他说我去了的时候，杰西为什么不打电话来？

And I knew something was really wrong.

我知道事情真的出了问题。

He said, I tried.

他说，我试过了。

And that's when I woke up, because the scream was so loud.

就在那时我醒了，因为尖叫声太大了。

It was so horrific and something I never heard before.

这太可怕了，我以前从未听说过。

Lonnie found Sandy in the living room, sliding down a wall.

朗尼在客厅里发现桑迪正在从墙上滑下来。

He picked her up and took her to their couch, where he held her.

他抱起她，把她带到沙发上，抱着她。

Jessi was one of 12 people killed that night.

杰西是当晚遇难的 12 人之一。

Another 70 people were injured.

另有70人受伤。

And then, five months later, there was another mass shooting, Sandy Hook, where 20 first graders and six educators died.

五个月后，桑迪胡克又发生大规模枪击事件，造成 20 名一年级学生和 6 名教育工作者死亡。

Days later, the Brady Campaign to prevent gun violence contacted the Phillipses.

几天后，防止枪支暴力的布雷迪运动联系了菲利普斯夫妇。

They were reaching out to families from other mass shootings, and asked if they'd be willing to travel to Newtown to talk to parents there.

他们正在联系其他大规模枪击事件的家庭，并询问他们是否愿意前往纽敦与那里的父母交谈。

Sandy said they didn't even have to think about it.

桑迪说他们甚至不需要考虑这个问题。

They immediately said, yes, because they wished they'd had someone to talk to right after Jessi died.

他们立即说，是的，因为他们希望杰西死后有人可以倾诉。

But when they arrived at a community center in Newtown, Sandy says they felt nervous and uncomfortable.

但桑迪说，当他们到达纽敦的一个社区中心时，他们感到紧张和不舒服。

Maybe they were intruding.

也许他们闯入了。

They weren't sure if these parents would feel angry or grateful about their presence.

他们不确定这些父母会对他们的存在感到愤怒还是感激。

You know, it's like walking into a funeral of people that you don't know.

你知道，这就像走进一个你不认识的人的葬礼。

And I remember saying to my husband when we walked in the room, and I saw their faces, and I said, that's what we looked like five months ago.

我记得当我们走进房间时我对我丈夫说，我看到他们的脸，我说，这就是我们五个月前的样子。

Pff.

噗。

They're hanging on to each other.

他们互相依偎着。

And they've been crying, so their eyes are red.

而且他们一直在哭，所以他们的眼睛都是红的。

They're walking almost robot-like.

他们走路几乎像机器人一样。

Their bodies are moving, but they're not really there.

他们的身体在移动，但他们并不真正在那里。

I realized that's what I looked like just five months ago.

我意识到这就是我五个月前的样子。

But it also made me realize this is exactly what I want to be doing.

但这也让我意识到这正是我想做的事情。

She wanted to help these parents acclimate to their new reality.

她想帮助这些父母适应新的现实。

Looking back, Sandy says it was probably too soon for them to be out there trying to comfort other parents when they were still so raw.

回顾过去，桑迪说，当其他父母还很不成熟时，他们就去安慰他们可能还为时过早。

But the Phillipses said there was also a strong and instant sense of kinship that they couldn't turn away from.

但菲利普斯夫妇表示，他们也有一种强烈而即时的亲情感，他们无法拒绝。

While they were there, they ran into parents from other mass shootings too, parents from Virginia Tech and Tucson.

当他们在那里时，他们也遇到了来自其他大规模枪击事件的父母，来自弗吉尼亚理工大学和图森的父母。

These parents had lost kids suddenly and violently in places where they thought that they were safe.

这些父母在他们认为安全的地方突然而暴力地失去了孩子。

The Phillipses now had parents that they could lean on too.

菲利普斯夫妇现在也有了可以依靠的父母。

This was the moment that launched the Phillipses into what's become their life's work.

正是在这个时刻，菲利普斯夫妇开始了他们一生的事业。

They could see the need.

他们可以看到这种需要。

There are no experts on what to do when your child dies in a mass shooting.

没有专家知道当你的孩子在大规模枪击事件中死亡时该怎么办。

The only experts are the people it's happened to.

唯一的专家是发生过这种事的人。

So to help them find each other, Lonnie and Sandy have set up an organization, called Survivors Empowered.

因此，为了帮助他们找到彼此，朗尼和桑迪成立了一个组织，名为“幸存者授权”。

They help families navigate their grief, plus a bunch of other practical things, everything from medical bills, and charity scams that use kids photos to raise money, to how to get your child's body home if you live out of state.

他们帮助家庭度过悲痛，还有一些其他实用的事情，从医疗费用、利用孩子照片筹集资金的慈善骗局，到如果你住在外州，如何将孩子的遗体带回家。

However, this new mission was hard for their family and friends to comprehend.

然而，这个新使命让他们的家人和朋友很难理解。

They want you to move on with your life.

他们希望你继续你的生活。

They want you to get back to normal.

他们希望你恢复正常。

My own brother said to me, he said, you're not the same as you were.

我自己的兄弟对我说，他说，你和以前不一样了。

I said, you know, let me explain something to you.

我说，你知道，让我向你解释一下。

You're right, I'm not the same person.

你说得对，我不是同一个人。

I never will be.

我永远不会。

They see it as we're obsessed with this.

他们看到这一点就像我们对此着迷一样。

Well, you know, we are, in a sense.

嗯，你知道，从某种意义上说，我们是。

We are obsessed with it.

我们对此很着迷。

The Phillipses and a few other parents told me because it's so hard for people to understand that the grief never fades, old relationships start to fall away.

菲利普斯夫妇和其他一些家长告诉我，因为人们很难理解悲伤永远不会消失，旧的关系开始消失。

People you were closest to disappear, which makes this informal support group even more crucial.

你最亲近的人消失了，这使得这个非正式的支持小组变得更加重要。

What that support looks like over time, and what it means to the parents who get it, I got to see all that when Sandy and Lonnie got to know a couple from Florida who lost their son in the shooting at Parkland-- Annika and Mitch Dworet.

随着时间的推移，这种支持会是什么样子，以及对获得这种支持的父母意味着什么，当桑迪和朗尼认识了一对来自佛罗里达州的夫妇——安妮卡和米奇·德沃雷特，他们在帕克兰枪击事件中失去了儿子，我才明白了这一切。

I met them at their house.

我在他们家遇见了他们。

Their son's name was Nick.

他们的儿子叫尼克。

He was the captain of Parkland swim team and was about to go to the University of Indianapolis on a swim scholarship.

他是帕克兰游泳队的队长，即将获得游泳奖学金去印第安纳波利斯大学就读。

He was a 6-foot-tall blond kid who collected different flavors of Oreos and waited for Supreme drops.

他是一个 6 英尺高的金发小伙子，收集了不同口味的奥利奥并等待 Supreme 的掉落。

Mitch said they'd just reached a point where they were becoming real friends.

米奇说他们已经成为真正的朋友了。

They talked about relationships, shared playlists, and watched Scarface together.

他们谈论人际关系、分享播放列表、一起观看《疤面煞星》。

The day of the shooting, Mitch and Annika got phone calls and texts all day from people who said they'd heard Nick was OK.

枪击事件发生当天，米奇和安妮卡一整天都接到人们打来的电话和短信，他们说听说尼克没事。

One person said they heard he'd been moved to a staging area for all the students who witnessed the shooting.

一个人说，他们听说他被转移到了所有目睹枪击事件的学生的集结地。

Another said a police officer was giving him a ride home.

另一个人说，一名警察正在送他回家。

And then a nurse at a local hospital said she saw a patient who matched Nick's description.

然后当地一家医院的一名护士说她看到了一名与尼克描述相符的病人。

But by that evening, the Dworets still hadn't heard directly from Nick.

但到了那天晚上，德沃雷特一家仍然没有收到尼克的直接消息。

So they went to a Marriott that law enforcement designated as a meeting area.

于是他们去了执法部门指定为会议区的万豪酒店。

They sat in a ballroom with other parents and waited.

他们和其他家长坐在舞厅里等待。

Every time the phone rings, you'd jump and think it's Nick calling from somebody else's phone.

每次电话响起，你都会跳起来，以为是尼克用别人的电话打来的。

The media was calling you, do you have any comments?

媒体给你打电话，你有什么意见吗？

Can we help you find your son?

我们可以帮你找到你的儿子吗？

And I was just like--

我当时就像——

[INAUDIBLE] Annika Dworet Yeah.

[听不清] 安妮卡·德沃雷特 是的。

And at 2 o'clock in the morning, we see this FBI car.

凌晨2点，我们看到了这辆FBI车。

And then they start pulling one family into rooms at a time.

然后他们开始一次把一个家庭拉进房间。

And you hear screams from these rooms.

你会听到这些房间里传来尖叫声。

Even walking into that room, you have this tiny little hope that they're going to say, like, we couldn't even find your son, you know.

即使走进那个房间，你也有一点点希望，他们会说，我们甚至找不到你的儿子，你知道。

And that hope of that he was somewhere else.

以及他在其他地方的希望。

And I keep on thinking, maybe he walked home.

我一直在想，也许他是步行回家的。

And then you do the math in your head, like, it doesn't take that long to walk to our house.

然后你在心里算了一下，比如，步行到我们家不需要那么长时间。

And then they told us the news, that he was gone.

然后他们告诉我们他走了的消息。

He was shot and he was never brought to the hospital at all.

他被枪杀，但从未被送往医院。

It was just like a nightmare.

这就像一场噩梦。

Just like a nightmare.

就像一场噩梦一样。

Nick's body was still at the school because he died instantly and the building was still a crime scene.

尼克的尸体仍在学校里，因为他当场死亡，而学校仍然是犯罪现场。

It'd be two days before they could see him.

两天后他们才能见到他。

Annika wanted to look at his injuries.

安妮卡想看看他的伤势。

Mitch did not.

米奇没有。

Annika says this is just how her brain works.

安妮卡说这就是她大脑的运作方式。

She's an ER nurse.

她是一名急诊室护士。

She needs details.

她需要细节。

The director at the funeral home, wanting to protect her, called the medical examiner's office to ask about Nick.

殡仪馆负责人为了保护她，打电话给法医办公室询问尼克的情况。

And the person that answered the phone said, oh, let me-- let me take a look.

接电话的人说，哦，让我——让我看看。

What's the name again?

又叫什么名字？

It's Nicholas Dworet.

我是尼古拉斯·德沃雷特。

He's the swimmer.

他是游泳运动员。

Oh, the swimmer is perfect.

哦，游泳运动员很完美。

What does that mean?

这意味着什么？

Annika Dworet I think it meant that there was nothing on his face or his head.

安妮卡·德沃莱特（Annika Dworet） 我认为这意味着他的脸上或头上什么也没有。

Like he was-- he was perfect.

就像他一样——他是完美的。

He'd been shot three times.

他被枪杀了三枪。

A bullet in his chest destroyed his heart and lungs.

他胸口的一颗子弹摧毁了他的心脏和肺部。

Yes, it was helpful.

是的，这很有帮助。

Because your picture in your head when you hear-- when you hear that somebody has been shot with an AR-15, just so gruesome, so horrible, horrible.

因为当你听到有人被 AR-15 射击时，你的脑海中浮现出这样的画面，太可怕了，太可怕了，太可怕了。

And I think to see him, and to see on his body where his injuries were, made me get it.

我想看到他，看到他身上的伤势，让我明白了。

Like, he was so peaceful, and he was not in pain.

就好像他很平静，没有痛苦。

And it made me have a better image of him than the one that was playing over in my mind.

这让我对他有了比我脑海中浮现的形象更好的印象。

The Phillipses had traveled to Parkland a couple of days after the shooting.

枪击事件发生几天后，菲利普斯夫妇前往帕克兰。

They didn't know the Dworets, but a mutual friend thought they should talk.

他们不认识德沃雷特夫妇，但一位共同的朋友认为他们应该谈谈。

And so this friend, with Mitch's permission, gave Sandy his phone number.

因此，这位朋友在米奇的允许下，给了桑迪他的电话号码。

Sandy called and got no answer.

桑迪打电话但无人接听。

So she left a voicemail.

于是她留下了语音信箱。

I'm very sorry for your loss.

我对你的损失感到非常抱歉。

I understand your loss.

我理解你的损失。

We lost our daughter.

我们失去了我们的女儿。

And you can call me any time.

你可以随时给我打电话。

She let him know that she and Lonnie would be in Parkland for a few more days.

她让他知道她和朗尼还要在帕克兰待几天。

Mitch called back quickly.

米奇很快回了电话。

He did want to meet with them in person, thought it'd be helpful to talk to another family who'd been through a mass shooting.

他确实想亲自与他们会面，认为与另一个经历过大规模枪击事件的家庭交谈会有所帮助。

But he told Sandy the timing wasn't going to work.

但他告诉桑迪这个时机行不通。

His house was packed with family in town for Nick's funeral.

他的家里挤满了镇上的家人来参加尼克的葬礼。

And I'm on the phone with him, and ironically, I'm standing right in front of his child's cross.

我正在和他通电话，讽刺的是，我就站在他孩子的十字架前。

And I said, you're not going to believe this.

我说，你不会相信这一点。

She said that she was standing right in front of Nick's memorial.

她说她正站在尼克的纪念碑前。

I get chills right now.

我现在浑身发冷。

And we proceeded to have a talk.

我们继续交谈。

And he said, I don't think we're ready to meet with you.

他说，我认为我们还没有准备好与你见面。

And I said, I totally understand.

我说，我完全理解。

I'm just glad that we're getting to talk.

我很高兴我们能谈谈。

But you do need to know that truthers are already online saying that this didn't happen.

但你确实需要知道，真相者已经在网上说这并没有发生。

He said, what are truthers?

他说，什么是真理者？

And I said, ugh, OK.

我说，呃，好吧。

I thought, like, wow, are you kidding me?

我想，哇，你在开玩笑吗？

Crazy.

疯狂的。

Mitch asked her to stop by their house the following day.

米奇邀请她第二天去他们家。

While Mitch was on board with the Phillipses, Annika had a different take on total strangers stopping by their house.

当米奇和菲利普斯一起上船时，安妮卡对完全陌生的人来到他们家有不同的看法。

I was more-- maybe more skeptical, like, nervous of why are they here, what's their agenda.

我更多——也许更怀疑，比如，紧张他们为什么在这里，他们的议程是什么。

How can people come and meet with us if they don't want something from us?

如果人们不想要我们的东西，他们怎么能来见我们呢？

Their house was so crowded that the only private place to talk was their bedroom.

他们的房子太拥挤了，唯一可以说话的私人地方就是他们的卧室。

Annika and Mitch sat on the bed, Lonnie and Sandy in chairs.

安妮卡和米奇坐在床上，朗尼和桑迪坐在椅子上。

Annika remembers feeling a little uncomfortable and thinking to herself--

安妮卡记得感觉有点不舒服，心里想——

Why am I sitting here?

我为什么坐在这里？

Why I'm not with the family?

为什么我不和家人在一起？

Who are these people?

这些人是谁？

I don't know them.

我不认识他们。

But I guess it might help.

但我想这可能会有所帮助。

But it was very overwhelming.

但这是非常压倒性的。

Like, I can't believe that I have to sit and have this conversation.

就像，我不敢相信我必须坐下来进行这样的谈话。

What is this?

这是什么？

This is my life now?

这就是我现在的生活？

Was there a point in the conversation where it started to turn for you?

谈话中是否有某个时刻开始对你产生影响？

Yeah, I think-- I think when they said, don't join our organization now.

是的，我想——我想当他们说，现在不要加入我们的组织。

Don't fight now.

现在别打了。

Just take care of yourself and let yourself grieve.

照顾好自己，让自己悲伤。

They asked questions about Nick.

他们询问了有关尼克的问题。

And before long, they were just talking.

不久之后，他们就只是说话了。

Lonnie remembers Mitch asking if they were religious and if they ever got signs from Jessi.

朗尼记得米奇问他们是否有宗教信仰，以及是否收到过杰西的信号。

He told Mitch that, like them, they weren't, but they took 11:11 as a hello from Jessi.

他告诉米奇，和他们一样，他们也不是，但他们把 11 点 11 分当作杰西的问候。

The conversation went on for three hours.

谈话持续了三个小时。

You know, all our friends and family, as much as they did for us and how much love they showed, none of them could have any clue what we were feeling.

你知道，我们所有的朋友和家人，尽管他们为我们做了多少，表现出了多少爱，但他们都无法知道我们的感受。

And here were two people knowing exactly what we were feeling.

这里有两个人完全了解我们的感受。

They also made me feel a little more confident.

他们也让我感觉更加自信了。

I don't know if that's the right word.

我不知道这个词是否正确。

You're in a club we all don't want to be in.

你加入了一个我们都不想加入的俱乐部。

We didn't want to meet you.

我们不想见到你。

We wish we would have met under different circumstances.

我们希望我们能在不同的情况下相遇。

But you have people who will help you with this kind of grief.

但有人会帮助你度过这种悲伤。

And a few days later, when the online conspiracies started appearing about Nick, that he didn't exist, or that he was living in California, they remembered Sandy's warning.

几天后，当网上开始出现有关尼克的阴谋时，他不存在，或者他住在加利福尼亚州，他们想起了桑迪的警告。

It was still upsetting, but less upsetting because they knew it was coming.

它仍然令人不安，但不那么令人不安，因为他们知道它即将到来。

They've helped in other ways too.

他们还以其他方式提供了帮助。

The Dworets took the Phillipses' advice and got into trauma therapy right away, both individually and as a family.

德沃雷夫妇采纳了菲利普斯夫妇的建议，立即开始进行创伤治疗，无论是个人还是家庭。

Their younger son, Alex, has been through a lot.

他们的小儿子亚历克斯经历了很多事情。

Nick was his best friend.

尼克是他最好的朋友。

One of the last things Nick did on the day of the shooting was walk Alex to his English class.

枪击当天尼克做的最后一件事就是送亚历克斯去他的英语课。

Alex was injured in the shooting and sat by a kid who died right in front of him.

亚历克斯在枪击事件中受伤，坐在一个死在他面前的孩子旁边。

Annika says managing her grief, along with her son's, has been tough.

安妮卡说，控制她和她儿子的悲伤是很困难的。

There was so much attention on Nick, Nick, Nick, Nick, Nick.

尼克、尼克、尼克、尼克、尼克受到了如此多的关注。

Everybody came for Nick.

每个人都是冲着尼克来的。

The flowers were for Nick, the letters were for Nick.

这些花是给尼克的，这些信是给尼克的。

I felt like, you know, I-- if this didn't happen to Nicholas, and only this, I could have been there for Alex so much stronger and so much more.

我觉得，你知道，我——如果这件事没有发生在尼古拉斯身上，仅此而已，我就能在亚历克斯身边变得更强大、更多。

So I was afraid that he would get neglected and all that.

所以我担心他会被忽视等等。

I think sometimes children feel like, well, you must have loved that child more than you love me.

我想有时孩子们会觉得，好吧，你一定爱那个孩子胜过爱我。

Sandy's son was 25 when his sister died.

桑迪的妹妹去世时，他的儿子 25 岁。

Sandy tried to talk to him about it, which ended up pushing him farther away.

桑迪试图和他谈谈这件事，结果却把他推得更远。

When she talks to parents, she talks about her own mistakes too.

当她与父母交谈时，她也会谈论自己的错误。

Eight months after they first met, Mitch is still in touch with Sandy.

他们第一次见面八个月后，米奇仍然与桑迪保持联系。

They text or call each other every couple weeks.

他们每隔几周就会互相发短信或打电话。

Mitch relies on Sandy more than Annika, who, unlike him, already has a built-in network of friends she talks to all the time.

米奇比安妮卡更依赖桑迪，安妮卡与他不同，她已经拥有了一个随时与之交谈的内置朋友网络。

And we texted-- I think we texted yesterday.

我们发短信了——我想我们昨天发短信了。

It was 11:11, actually.

事实上，当时是 11 点 11 分。

We texted yesterday.

我们昨天发短信。

And I feel like she's still in it.

我感觉她还在里面。

She's still with us.

她还和我们在一起。

She's-- it's someone who we can lean on and give us support.

她是我们可以依靠并给予我们支持的人。

And I, in turn, wanted her to lean on me.

而我，反过来，希望她依靠我。

Maybe, you know, seeing us get stronger, it gives her energy too.

也许，你知道，看到我们变得更强，这也给了她能量。

He's right about that.

他是对的。

Sandy spends almost every day at her tiny kitchen table in their trailer fielding texts and phone calls from survivors, and messaging with people on social media who ask for help.

桑迪几乎每天都在拖车里的小餐桌前处理幸存者的短信和电话，并与社交媒体上寻求帮助的人发消息。

And the pain is always there at the end of the day and when you go to bed at night.

一天结束时和晚上睡觉时，疼痛总是存在。

And when you first wake up in the morning it's there.

当你早上第一次醒来时，它就在那里。

But you have a sense of purpose, and that-- that helps.

但你有一种使命感，这会有所帮助。

A little bit of a lifeline or something?

一点点生命线什么的？

Oh, it's a total lifeline-- total.

哦，这是一条完整的生命线——全部。

If I didn't have this work, I don't think I'd be alive.

如果我没有这份工作，我想我就活不下去了。

I really don't.

我真的不知道。

And I say that to Lonnie all the time.

我一直对朗尼这么说。

And he goes, but, you know, don't you love me enough, kind of thing, to stay alive?

然后他就走了，但是，你知道，你难道还不够爱我，以至于无法活下去吗？

I just don't think I would have had the ability to keep going.

我只是认为我没有能力继续下去。

Mitch and Annika told me that when they're feeling stronger, they'd like to do for other families with the Phillipses have done for them.

米奇和安妮卡告诉我，当他们感觉更坚强时，他们愿意为其他家庭做一些事情，就像菲利普斯一家为他们所做的那样。

They said, god forbid another shooting happens.

他们说，上帝禁止再次发生枪击事件。

But if it does, we'll be out there with them.

但如果是的话，我们会和他们一起。

Miki Meek is one of the producers of our show.

米基·米克是我们节目的制作人之一。

Coming up, a parent tries to combat an infuriating and very personal piece of misinformation online that just will not go away, and does some things that parents almost never do.

接下来，一位家长试图对抗网上一条令人愤怒且非常个人化的错误信息，这种信息不会消失，并做了一些父母几乎从未做过的事情。

That's in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.

稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。

It's This American Life.

这就是美国生活。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Today on our program, the parents step in.

今天，在我们的节目中，家长介入了。

So with the government doing-- I don't know-- is it nothing?; is it next to nothing?-- to reduce the number of mass shootings in this country, we have stories today of parents taking action, specifically parents of children who were killed in mass shootings.

那么政府所做的——我不知道——是不是没什么？为了减少这个国家的大规模枪击事件，今天我们有家长采取行动的故事，特别是在大规模枪击事件中丧生的儿童的父母。

And in the stories we have in today's show, these parents, they get results.

在我们今天节目中的故事中，这些父母取得了成果。

The dad in this next act is somebody who Lonnie and Sandy introduced producer Miki Meek to.

下一幕中的父亲是朗尼和桑迪向制片人米基·米克介绍的。

His name is Lenny Pozner.

他的名字叫莱尼·波兹纳。

This is Act Two of our show, "Down the Rabbit Hole."

这是我们的节目“Down the Rabbit Hole”的第二幕。

And when Lenny Pozner wants to explain to people what his life is like, he sometimes tells this story.

当莱尼·波兹纳想要向人们解释他的生活是什么样时，他有时会讲这个故事。

On election night back in 2016, he says he went to a bar, got a seat near a television, ordered a beer, and you know, started making small talk.

2016 年选举之夜，他说他去了一家酒吧，在电视机旁边找了个座位，点了一杯啤酒，然后开始闲聊。

And I had turned to the guy to my right, and I said, did you vote?

我转向我右边的那个人，我说，你投票了吗？

And from there, he went into a long explanation about just some shadow government ideas, and whether voting makes a difference.

从那里开始，他对一些影子政府的想法以及投票是否会产生影响进行了长篇大论的解释。

And probably 10 minutes into it he was talking about mass shootings, and then eventually Sandy Hook.

大概 10 分钟后，他就谈到了大规模枪击事件，最后谈到了桑迪·胡克。

Sandy Hook, of course, where a gunman killed 20 children, all in first grade, as well as seven adults.

当然是桑迪胡克，一名枪手杀死了 20 名一年级儿童以及 7 名成年人。

This random stranger then started telling Lenny this particular story about Sandy Hook.

然后，这个随机的陌生人开始向莱尼讲述这个关于桑迪·胡克的特殊故事。

He thought the whole shooting was fake.

他认为整个枪击事件都是假的。

It had to be fake, he said, because one of those first graders also showed up as a victim in a second mass shooting, all the way over in Pakistan.

他说，这一定是假的，因为其中一名一年级学生也成为了第二次大规模枪击事件的受害者，而且地点远在巴基斯坦。

In the corners of the internet, where people trade Sandy Hook conspiracy theories, this is a key piece of evidence that Sandy Hook wasn't real.

在互联网的角落里，人们交换桑迪·胡克阴谋论，这是桑迪·胡克不真实的关键证据。

Of course, it was real.

当然，这是真实的。

And what happened in Pakistan was, in reality, about two years after Sandy Hook, the Taliban gunned down more than 100 kids there.

实际上，在桑迪胡克发生两年后，塔利班枪杀了 100 多名巴基斯坦儿童。

And there was a public vigil.

并且举行了公众守夜活动。

And at the public vigil, probably as a sign of solidarity with other kids who had died in school shootings, mourners had this photo of a boy from Sandy Hook, smiling and wearing a Spider-Man shirt under a corduroy jacket with a furry collar.

在公众守夜活动中，可能是为了表达对其他在学校枪击事件中丧生的孩子的声援，哀悼者们拍了一张来自桑迪胡克的男孩的照片，他微笑着，穿着蜘蛛侠衬衫，里面是毛领灯芯绒夹克。

Sandy Hook deniers saw that in the coverage, and they pounced.

桑迪·胡克否认者在报道中看到了这一点，他们发起了猛扑。

Did he die twice?

他死过两次吗？

Did he die at all?

他到底死了吗？

So the guy at the bar with Lenny is rattling through all this Pakistan stuff.

酒吧里和莱尼一起的那个人正在喋喋不休地讲这些巴基斯坦的事情。

And then, as Lenny explained to Miki Meek, who he told this story to, the guy mentions the kid's name-- Noah Pozner.

然后，正如莱尼向米基·米克（他向米基·米克讲述了这个故事）解释的那样，米克提到了孩子的名字——诺亚·波兹纳。

I didn't really need to hear much more than that.

我真的不需要听到更多。

I just needed to shut him down, basically.

基本上我只是需要让他关闭。

So what did you do?

那么你做了什么？

Lenny Pozner I took out my driver's license.

莱尼·波兹纳 我拿出了驾驶执照。

And I said, look who you're talking to.

我说，看看你在和谁说话。

Show some respect.

表现出一些尊重。

The boy in the photo was Lenny's son, Noah, who was six when he died.

照片中的男孩是莱尼的儿子诺亚，他去世时只有六岁。

Does he connect it, or--?

他是否连接了它，或者——？

Lenny Pozner Well, sure, he connected it instantly, yeah.

莱尼·波兹纳（Lenny Pozner）嗯，当然，他立即接通了，是的。

And he just became more agitated, very angered, and went outside and maybe had a cigarette.

他变得更加焦躁，非常生气，然后走到外面，也许还抽了根烟。

Came back, yelled at me some more.

回来又骂我了。

Oh, my god, how much did they pay you?

天哪，他们付给你多少钱？

How can you do this?

你怎么能这样做呢？

He was committed to his belief.

他忠于自己的信念。

I was the villain.

我是恶棍。

People like this man at the bar pretty much redefined everything about the way Lenny lives his life-- where he lives, how he lives.

像酒吧里的这个男人这样的人几乎重新定义了莱尼生活方式的一切——他住在哪里，他如何生活。

He runs into these hoaxers in person and pretty much every day online.

他亲自遇到这些骗子，而且几乎每天都在网上遇到这些骗子。

They think the government has paid him millions to play the part of a grieving dad.

他们认为政府付给他数百万美元来扮演悲伤的父亲。

In their minds, Lenny is the sick one.

在他们看来，莱尼就是有病的人。

Noah was never even his kid.

诺亚甚至从来都不是他的孩子。

And the person who has popularized these theories more than anybody is Alex Jones, who runs the website Infowars, and who pushed these theories with his radio show and his YouTube videos.

亚历克斯·琼斯（Alex Jones）是这些理论最普及的人，他运营着 Infowars 网站，并通过广播节目和 YouTube 视频推广了这些理论。

Alex Jones made his name right after 9/11, promoting the idea that 9/11 was an attack orchestrated by our own government.

亚历克斯·琼斯 (Alex Jones) 在 9/11 事件后一举成名，宣传 9/11 事件是由我们自己的政府精心策划的攻击。

With Sandy Hook, Jones said many times that he did not believe the shooting was real.

对于桑迪·胡克，琼斯多次表示他不相信枪击事件是真实的。

Sandy Hook is a synthetic, completely fake, with actors, in my view, manufactured.

桑迪·胡克是一个合成物，完全是假的，在我看来，演员是被制造出来的。

I couldn't believe it at first.

一开始我简直不敢相信。

I knew they had actors there, clearly.

我清楚地知道他们那里有演员。

But I thought they killed some real kids.

但我认为他们杀了一些真正的孩子。

And it just shows how bold they are that they clearly used actors.

这恰恰表明他们有多么大胆，他们明显使用了演员。

He's claimed that the government, or some shadowy global forces, are the ones who hired these actors.

他声称政府或一些神秘的全球势力是雇佣这些演员的人。

He and the other hoaxers call them crisis actors.

他和其他骗子称他们为危机演员。

It's like this whole alternate world that exists right next to the real one.

这就像整个替代世界就存在于真实世界旁边。

It makes life miserable for parents like Lenny.

这让像莱尼这样的父母的生活变得悲惨。

But unlike most parents in that situation, Lenny decided to go all action hero on the hoaxers and on Alex Jones.

但与大多数处于这种情况的父母不同的是，莱尼决定全力以赴对付骗子和亚历克斯·琼斯。

Action hero, I will do what needs to get done to defend my family-- damn the consequences.

动作英雄，我会尽一切努力来保卫我的家人——该死的后果。

Lenny is resourceful.

莱尼足智多谋。

He is dogged.

他很顽强。

He does not give up.

他不放弃。

In this world that we live in of hoaxers and trolls, he's marked out a path that I think very few of us would want to take.

在我们生活的这个充满骗子和巨魔的世界里，他开辟了一条我认为我们很少有人愿意走的道路。

Miki Meek, who did the story on Sandy and Lonnie also put together this story about the transformation of Lenny Pozner.

负责桑迪和朗尼故事的米基·米克（Miki Meek）也整理了这个关于伦尼·波兹纳（Lenny Pozner）转变的故事。

We first broadcast this back in 2019.

我们于 2019 年首次广播此内容。

There are some curse words in the story that we have un-beeped for this podcast version of the show.

故事中有一些脏话，我们在这个播客版本的节目中没有发出提示音。

If you prefer a beeped version, go to our website.

如果您喜欢蜂鸣版本，请访问我们的网站。

Here's Miki.

这是米基。

The first time Lenny became aware of any conspiracy theories about Sandy Hook was about a month after the shooting.

莱尼第一次意识到有关桑迪·胡克的阴谋论是在枪击事件发生一个月后。

He'd been on a media blackout, trying to get through Noah's funeral, and taking care of his two young girls.

他一直在媒体封锁中，试图度过诺亚的葬礼，并照顾他的两个小女儿。

They were also at the elementary school that morning.

那天早上他们也在小学。

And one of them was Noah's twin sister.

其中之一是诺亚的双胞胎妹妹。

She hid in a separate classroom.

她躲在一个单独的教室里。

But one day, Lenny finally felt ready to go online, read the news, googled his son's name.

但有一天，莱尼终于准备好上网，阅读新闻，用谷歌搜索他儿子的名字。

Infowars was coming up on search results, the forums.

Infowars 出现在搜索结果和论坛中。

The forums were.

论坛是。

Lenny Pozner Yeah, and it's just completely disgusting.

Lenny Pozner 是的，这真是太恶心了。

In just over 30 days, this whole world had been invented.

仅仅三十多天，整个世界就被发明了。

And one of the central pieces of it involved Lenny's wife.

其中的核心部分之一涉及莱尼的妻子。

Infowars fans were dissecting this one interview she did on CNN.

Infowars 的粉丝们正在剖析她在 CNN 接受的一次采访。

It was with Anderson Cooper, just days after Noah's funeral.

这是和安德森·库珀一起的，就在诺亚葬礼几天后。

What do you want people to know about Noah?

关于诺亚，你想让人们了解什么？

He loved running and playing with his siblings.

他喜欢和他的兄弟姐妹一起跑步和玩耍。

And he loved bubble baths and fireflies.

他喜欢泡泡浴和萤火虫。

And he loved eating the inside of Oreo cookies.

他喜欢吃奥利奥饼干的里面。

And he played the video "Gangnam Style" ad nauseam.

他还播放了视频“江南Style”，令人作呕。

I understand he used to tell his siblings that he-- that he managed a taco factory.

据我所知，他曾经告诉他的兄弟姐妹，他管理着一家玉米卷工厂。

Yes, he was going to split his time as an adult between managing a taco factory and being an astronaut.

是的，他成年后打算把自己的时间花在管理一家玉米卷工厂和成为一名宇航员之间。

The comments online were gross and flimsy.

网上的评论既粗鄙又脆弱。

Why didn't she sound sadder?

为什么她的语气没有变得更悲伤？

Why would she put on lipstick if she was really grieving?

如果她真的很悲伤，为什么还要涂口红呢？

And wasn't she too old to be the mom of a six-year-old kid?

而且她做一个六岁孩子的妈妈是不是太老了？

They were convinced that something was up.

他们确信出事了。

Most of the time, I'm kind of numb.

大多数时候，我都有点麻木。

I think every mom out there can relate to the fact of how long it takes to create a baby, those nine months, that you watch every ultrasound and every heartbeat.

我想每个妈妈都可以体会到生孩子需要多长时间，这九个月，你要观察每一次超声波和每一次心跳。

And it takes nine months to create a human being, and it takes seconds for an AR-15 to take that away from the surface of this earth.

创造一个人类需要九个月的时间，而 AR-15 只需要几秒钟就能将其从地球表面带走。

This reference to guns was another aha moment for conspiracy theorists.

对于阴谋论者来说，对枪支的提及是另一个顿悟时刻。

Some of them started digging into Veronique's life, looked up her maiden name, and then said, hey, look at this.

他们中的一些人开始深入挖掘维罗妮克的生活，查找她的婚前姓氏，然后说，嘿，看看这个。

There's a Swiss diplomat who has her exact same name.

有一位瑞士外交官与她同名。

And even fishier, this diplomat once went to an arms control summit at the United Nations.

更可疑的是，这位外交官曾经参加过联合国军控峰会。

So maybe they're the same person.

所以也许他们是同一个人。

Maybe she's one of those elite globalists, trying to make guns look bad so President Obama can repeal the Second Amendment.

也许她是精英全球主义者之一，试图让枪支看起来很糟糕，以便奥巴马总统可以废除第二修正案。

Suddenly, every real sentiment Veronique shared about Noah was getting reinterpreted as lines from a sinister script.

突然间，维罗妮克分享的关于诺亚的每一个真实情感都被重新解释为邪恶剧本中的台词。

They were here and they mattered.

他们在这里并且很重要。

They all had families.

他们都有家庭。

And they matter.

它们很重要。

And the kicker that cinched it for these conspiracy theorists-- Anderson Cooper's nose.

对于这些阴谋论者来说，最关键的就是安德森·库珀的鼻子。

There's this moment when the tip of his nose disappears because of a digital glitch in the video, what CNN says was normal interference that happens with a live satellite feed.

有一次，由于视频中的数字故障，他的鼻尖消失了，CNN 称这是直播卫星直播时发生的正常干扰。

It's just a couple seconds, but hoaxers wouldn't let it go.

虽然只有几秒钟的时间，但骗子却不肯放过。

And they said that it's a green screen, or a blue screen, or whatever.

他们说这是绿屏，或者蓝屏，或者其他什么。

So that was a fake interview, and Veronique was a participant of a fake, staged CNN interview.

所以那是一次假采访，维罗妮克是 CNN 一场假采访的参与者。

That conspiracy theory was all over YouTube, and it was all over YouTube with Noah's image.

这个阴谋论在 YouTube 上随处可见，而且还伴随着诺亚的形象在 YouTube 上随处可见。

I've talked to parents who've lost kids in other mass shootings, and they've all been blindsided by online harassment from conspiracy theorists.

我曾与在其他大规模枪击事件中失去孩子的父母交谈过，他们都被阴谋论者的网上骚扰弄得措手不及。

The crisis actor claim is so common now, these attacks usually start almost immediately after victims are IDed in the media.

危机行动者的说法现在非常普遍，这些攻击通常在受害者在媒体上被识别后立即开始。

And parents who go on TV and talk about gun control, like Veronique, they get it the worst.

而像维罗妮克这样在电视上谈论枪支管制的父母，他们的感受最糟糕。

Sandy Hook is when this really took off.

桑迪·胡克 (Sandy Hook) 正是这种技术真正起飞的时候。

Families get stuck fending off all this crazy hate by themselves.

家庭只能靠自己来抵御所有这些疯狂的仇恨。

There just aren't that many resources for them, because law enforcement still hasn't figured out how to deal with most cyber harassment.

他们没有那么多资源，因为执法部门仍然没有弄清楚如何处理大多数网络骚扰。

And the tech companies aren't much help.

科技公司也没有多大帮助。

So most families just try to ignore the conspiracy theorists and hope they'll eventually go away.

因此，大多数家庭只是试图忽视阴谋论者，并希望他们最终会消失。

And that's what Lenny did for a while.

莱尼有一段时间就是这样做的。

His life was a wreck.

他的生活一团糟。

But after about a year and a half, they were still at it.

但大约一年半后，他们仍然坚持下去。

And he couldn't let it go anymore.

而他再也不能放手了。

And I realized that grieving requires a calmness and a silence.

我意识到悲伤需要冷静和沉默。

And all of this material was a distraction for me, and it was noise.

所有这些材料都会分散我的注意力，而且都是噪音。

And I needed to handle that noise so that I could have the silence and calm that I needed.

我需要处理这些噪音，这样我才能拥有我需要的沉默和平静。

There's this photo I love of Lenny, with his arm wrapped around Noah.

我很喜欢这张莱尼的照片，他的手臂搂着诺亚。

He's got a walrus mustache and he's kneeling on a trampoline with a soft smile.

他留着海象般的小胡子，跪在蹦床上，脸上挂着温柔的微笑。

It's spring.

春天来了。

And Noah has all this big brown hair, fat cheeks.

诺亚有一头棕色的大头发，脸颊肥胖。

He's snuggling his whole body into Lenny's chest.

他把整个身体依偎在莱尼的胸口里。

Lenny's got tons of family photos like these.

莱尼有很多这样的家庭照片。

He posted them in an online memorial he made for Noah right after he died.

他在诺亚死后立即将它们发布在他为诺亚制作的在线纪念馆中。

But Sandy Hook deniers downloaded them and repurposed them into cruel memes, wrote "fake" across Noah's face.

但桑迪·胡克否认者下载了它们，并将它们重新利用成残酷的模因，在诺亚的脸上写下了“假”。

Took a picture of his headstone and photoshopped under his name, "Is not buried here." Photos of his daughters were circulating too.

拍了一张他的墓碑的照片，并用他的名字进行了修图，“不是埋在这里。”他女儿们的照片也在流传。

He couldn't just leave them out there on the web with the trolls.

他不能把它们和巨魔一起留在网络上。

Lenny got consumed with thinking about how to take control of the situation, how to extract Noah and his family from all this.

莱尼全神贯注于思考如何控制局势，如何将诺亚和他的家人从这一切中解救出来。

The internet didn't scare him.

互联网并没有吓到他。

It was actually his comfort zone.

这实际上是他的舒适区。

He ran his own IT business.

他经营着自己的 IT 业务。

He was not the kind of guy who sat around and complained about how something didn't work.

他不是那种坐在那里抱怨事情不起作用的人。

He was a guy who fixed stuff.

他是一个修理东西的人。

So you need to find what the problem is, and then find you know what your solution is, and then start getting closer to that solution step by step.

所以你需要找到问题是什么，然后发现你知道你的解决方案是什么，然后开始一步一步接近那个解决方案。

Otherwise, the problem is overwhelming, and then you just want someone else to fix it for you.

否则，问题是巨大的，然后你就希望别人来帮你解决它。

You have to track down where you can make a difference and get closer to being less broken.

你必须找出你可以在哪些方面有所作为，并逐渐减少崩溃。

There was one other thing that made Lenny especially qualified to deal with the conspiracy theorists.

还有一件事让莱尼特别有资格对付阴谋论者。

He used to enjoy those theories himself, the classic fun ones-- Bigfoot, Loch Ness, Area 51, NASA faking the moon landing.

他自己曾经很喜欢这些理论，那些经典有趣的理论——大脚怪、尼斯湖、51区、美国宇航局假装登月。

Like, what's the fun of it?

比如说，这有什么乐趣？

Lenny Pozner It's suspending your disbelief.

莱尼·波兹纳：它正在消除你的怀疑。

It's like sitting down and watching a science fiction movie and then looking at the "what if?" And it's just fun-- especially if there's no price to pay in your life, and there's no cost to that way of thinking.

这就像坐下来看一部科幻电影，然后思考“如果会怎样？”这很有趣——尤其是如果你的生活不需要付出任何代价，而且这种思维方式也不需要任何成本。

Then it's just a game.

那么这只是一场游戏。

Sometimes he even listened to Alex Jones in his car.

有时他甚至在车里听亚历克斯·琼斯的歌。

And in fact, just a month after the shootings, when Lenny first saw those things on Alex Jones's website, he tried to reach out.

事实上，就在枪击事件发生一个月后，当莱尼第一次在亚历克斯·琼斯的网站上看到这些东西时，他试图联系。

He found a general Infowars email address and shot him off this message.

他找到了 Infowars 的通用电子邮件地址，并给他发了这条消息。

"Alex, I'm very disappointed to see how many people are directing more anger at families that lost their children in Newtown, accusing us of being actors.

“亚历克斯，我非常失望地看到有这么多人将更多的愤怒指向在纽敦失去孩子的家庭，指责我们是演员。

Haven't we had our share of pain and suffering?

难道我们没有经历过痛苦和磨难吗？

I used to enjoy listening to your shows.

我以前很喜欢听你的节目。

Now I feel that your type of show created these hateful people, and they need to be reeled in!" Exclamation point.

现在我觉得你们的节目造就了这些可恨的人，他们需要被卷入！”感叹号。

About an hour later, he heard back from Jones's staff.

大约一个小时后，他收到了琼斯工作人员的回复。

And they responded with, "We have not supported the crisis actor claim.

他们回应道：“我们不支持危机行动者的说法。

We insist that it's a true event." And on and on.

我们坚持认为这是真实事件。”不断地。

This wasn't true.

这不是真的。

Jones did spread the crisis actor theory.

琼斯确实传播了危机行动者理论。

It was on his website at the time.

当时在他的网站上。

And he started talking about it-- a lot.

他开始谈论这件事——很多。

That CNN interview with Veronique, he talked about it all the time.

CNN 采访 Veronique 时，他一直在谈论这件事。

Folks, we've got video of Anderson Cooper with clear blue screen out there.

各位，我们有安德森·库珀的视频，上面有清晰的蓝屏。

He's not there in the town square.

他不在城镇广场。

We've got people clearly coming up and laughing and then doing the fake crying.

我们看到有人明显走过来大笑，然后假装哭泣。

We've clearly got people where it's actors playing different parts of different people.

显然，我们有演员扮演不同人的不同角色。

I've looked at it, and undoubtedly there's a cover-up.

我看过了，毫无疑问，其中有隐情。

There's actors.

有演员。

They're manipulating.

他们在操纵。

And they've been caught lying.

他们被发现撒谎了。

And they were pre-planning before it and rolled out with it.

他们在此之前就进行了预先规划并随之推出。

What Lenny wanted was a one-on-one conversation with Jones.

莱尼想要的是与琼斯进行一对一的对话。

But it didn't happen.

但它没有发生。

There were a few emails after that asking me to prove that I'm really who I am, and sort of leading on to get me on the show.

之后有几封电子邮件要求我证明我确实是我自己，并有点引导我参加节目。

Lenny didn't want that.

莱尼不想这样。

He's very private and very reserved, a behind-the-scenes kind of guy.

他非常注重隐私，非常保守，是一个喜欢躲在幕后的人。

He's careful when he talks-- things like, no comment, that's off the record, or do I have to talk about my personal life?

他说话时很小心——比如，不发表评论，这是不公开的，或者我必须谈论我的个人生活吗？

That came up all the time during our interview.

在我们的采访中，这个问题一直被提及。

One of the ground rules he gave is that I had to run his quotes past him and his lawyer, because he's worried about his own safety if his words were misconstrued.

他给出的基本规则之一是我必须将他的引述转述给他和他的律师，因为如果他的话被误解，他会担心自己的安全。

Also, he's fighting some of the conspiracy theorists in court.

此外，他还在法庭上与一些阴谋论者作斗争。

We agreed to his terms, and in the end, he didn't ask me to edit any of his quotes.

我们同意了他的条件，最后，他没有要求我编辑他的任何引言。

But he did request that we remove one personal detail, and we did.

但他确实要求我们删除一项个人信息，我们照做了。

Now, a year and a half after he reached out to Alex Jones, he decided to try a new tactic.

现在，在他联系亚历克斯·琼斯一年半后，他决定尝试一种新策略。

He'd go directly to Jones's followers and the other Sandy Hook conspiracy theorists.

他会直接去找琼斯的追随者和其他桑迪胡克阴谋论者。

I think his approach was, I'm going to make them see the light.

我认为他的方法是，我要让他们看到光明。

This is Veronique.

这是维罗妮克。

She and Lenny were separated when the shooting happened, but were still very much in each other's lives.

枪击事件发生时，她和莱尼已经分居，但仍深深融入彼此的生活中。

They decided to start releasing documents about Noah-- report cards, school photos.

他们决定开始发布有关诺亚的文件——成绩单、学校照片。

He even disclosed Noah's death certificate, which was a difficult decision that we made.

他甚至公开了诺亚的死亡证明，这是我们做出的一个艰难的决定。

But figured after a while of providing this hard copy, convincing evidence that reason would prevail.

但在提供这份硬拷贝一段时间后，我发现令人信服的证据表明理性将会占上风。

And they would say, oh, OK, yeah, you've made your point, I'm going to come around.

他们会说，哦，好吧，是的，你已经表达了你的观点，我会改变主意。

Lenny also decided he'd answer anyone's questions.

莱尼还决定他会回答任何人的问题。

He wanted to join this notorious Facebook group called "Sandy Hook Hoax." It's where a lot of the deniers were congregating and sharing theories.

他想加入这个臭名昭著的 Facebook 群组，名为“Sandy Hook Hoax”。这是许多否认者聚集并分享理论的地方。

The cover photo on their page looked like it came straight out of a horror movie-- a corpse-like girl with a "keep quiet" finger in front of her mouth.

他们页面上的封面照片看起来就像是直接从恐怖电影中走出来的——一个像尸体一样的女孩，嘴前放着一根“保持安静”的手指。

The administrator of the Facebook group immediately let him in.

Facebook群组的管理员立即让他加入。

Did you identify yourself as, like, I am a father?

你是否认为自己是“我是一名父亲”？

They knew who I was.

他们知道我是谁。

They knew who I was instantly, yeah.

他们立刻就知道我是谁了，是的。

Like to me, it seems so crazy to even go there.

对我来说，去那里似乎太疯狂了。

Like, this doesn't exactly sound like a group of people who'd want to listen to you.

就像，这听起来不像是一群愿意听你说话的人。

People who are conspiracy minded, see these tragedies unfold on the internet or on television, they still feel separate from these events.

有阴谋论的人，看到这些悲剧在互联网或电视上上演，他们仍然感到与这些事件格格不入。

And I considered that bridging that gap could be an important step.

我认为弥合这一差距可能是重要的一步。

So that I can add a human element to this.

这样我就可以在其中添加人为因素。

That's right.

这是正确的。

That's right.

这是正确的。

And so here I am.

所以我就在这里。

I'm the person.

我就是那个人。

And so let's see what happens.

让我们看看会发生什么。

"Why weren't these children rushed to hospitals?" "Why wasn't anything done?" Why aren't you suing the EMTs?" Or "Why aren't you doing this?" "Why wasn't a rescue helicopter called from Hartford?" And I started to recognize some of the patterns that were there.

“为什么这些孩子没有被送往医院？” “为什么什么也没做？”你为什么不起诉急救人员？”或者“你为什么不这样做？”“为什么没有从哈特福德呼叫救援直升机？”我开始认识到其中的一些模式。

There were the people you'd expect in a conspiracy group-- anti-gun control people, anti-government people, but also parents.

阴谋团体中有些人是你所期望的——反枪支管制人士、反政府人士，还有家长。

They were young parents with small children.

他们是带着小孩的年轻父母。

And they just couldn't wrap their minds around the reality that an adult can look at children in their eyes and pump bullets into their head.

他们就是无法接受这样一个现实：成年人可以看着孩子的眼睛，然后把子弹射进他们的脑袋。

They just can't deal with that.

他们就是无法应对这个问题。

The conversation on this Facebook group quickly got ugly and abusive.

这个 Facebook 群组上的对话很快就变得丑陋且充满辱骂。

Some of the members started using antisemitic slurs.

一些成员开始使用反犹太主义诽谤。

Lenny was trying everything to keep up a rapport with them.

莱尼想尽一切办法与他们保持融洽的关系。

He even told them, I listen to Alex Jones in my car.

他甚至告诉他们，我在车里听亚历克斯·琼斯的音乐。

I used to argue with people about 9/11 being an inside job.

我曾经与人们争论 9/11 是否是内部活动。

I entertained that we didn't go to the moon.

我很高兴我们没有去月球。

But it didn't work.

但这没有用。

So he started blocking people and fighting back.

于是他开始拦人并反击。

This got him booted from the group.

这让他被踢出团体。

What's remarkable is just how up for this whole fight he was.

值得注意的是他在整场比赛中的表现如何。

When a bunch of people kept private messaging him, Lenny thought, you know what, I'll just start my own Facebook group.

当一群人一直给他发私信时，莱尼想，你知道吗，我就创建自己的 Facebook 群组吧。

He called it "Conspiracy Theorists Anonymous." This name was meant as a joke.

他称之为“匿名阴谋理论家”。这个名字本来就是一个玩笑。

He has a dry sense of humor.

他有一种冷幽默感。

Anyway, he made some progress with people-- the people who weren't full-blown deniers, who actually wanted help parsing out the truth of what really happened.

不管怎样，他与人们取得了一些进展——这些人并不是彻底的否认者，而是真正需要帮助来解析到底发生了什么的真相。

But they dropped away once they got answers.

但当他们得到答案后，他们就离开了。

And pretty soon, the only ones left were just dark, sadistic trolls coming in to entertain themselves.

很快，剩下的就只剩下黑暗、虐待狂的巨魔进来自娱自乐了。

One of Lenny's worst trolls was a guy named Wolfgang Halbig.

莱尼最糟糕的巨魔之一是一个名叫沃尔夫冈·哈尔比格的人。

That's his real name, by the way.

顺便说一句，这是他的真名。

He's a retired school security expert in Florida, who's probably the number one Newtown hoaxer in the world.

他是佛罗里达州一位退休的学校安全专家，可能是世界上纽敦头号骗子。

This guy travels to Newtown, appeared as an expert on Alex Jones's show.

这个人前往纽敦，以专家身份出现在亚历克斯·琼斯的节目中。

He's even called for Newtown parents to exhume the bodies of their children to prove that they're dead.

他甚至呼吁纽敦的父母挖掘孩子的尸体，以证明他们已经死亡。

Halbig ordered a background check on Lenny, then sent it out in an email to lots of people.

哈尔比格下令对莱尼进行背景调查，然后通过电子邮件发送给很多人。

It was almost 100 pages, listing everything from his Social Security number and phone number, to almost every address he'd ever lived at, with photos.

这封信有近 100 页，列出了从他的社会安全号码和电话号码到几乎他曾经居住过的每个地址的所有内容，并附有照片。

Names of his relatives were included too.

他的亲戚的名字也被包括在内。

The online harassment had become so intense that Lenny and Veronique and their two girls went into hiding.

网上骚扰变得如此激烈，以至于莱尼和维罗妮克以及他们的两个女儿躲了起来。

They moved into separate high-security gated communities.

他们搬进了单独的高度安全的封闭社区。

But Lenny's address kept getting exposed, and hoaxers started posting videos of where he lived.

但莱尼的地址不断曝光，骗子开始发布他居住地点的视频。

One apartment that I had moved into, I had only lived there, I think, for a month.

我搬进了一套公寓，我想我只在那里住了一个月。

And I got a call from a particular hoaxer-- who happens to be in prison now for attempted murder.

我接到了一个骗子打来的电话——他现在正因谋杀未遂而入狱。

And he called me up, and was acting like a smart ass, and then read me my Social Security number, and then read me my address where I had just moved into.

他给我打电话，表现得像个自作聪明的人，然后读了我的社会安全号码，然后读了我刚刚搬进去的地址。

And I said, well, you know what, I don't like this apartment that much anyway.

我说，好吧，你知道吗，反正我不太喜欢这套公寓。

And I moved shortly after that.

不久之后我就搬家了。

To try and throw the hoaxers off, Lenny started putting utility bills in different names, and got multiple PO boxes all over the place.

为了甩掉骗子，莱尼开始以不同的名字填写水电费账单，并在各处设置了多个邮政信箱。

All this forced Lenny into a new battle strategy.

这一切迫使莱尼采取新的战斗策略。

If they were going to expose him, he'd do the same to them.

如果他们要揭发他，他也会对他们做同样的事情。

He wrote newspaper op-eds, calling out Halbig and the others by name.

他在报纸上撰写专栏文章，直呼哈尔比格和其他人的名字。

And when these hoaxers posted his new addresses online, he did the same to them.

当这些骗子在网上发布他的新地址时，他对他们做了同样的事情。

He also made it so that if you googled their names, the first thing anyone would see was all the Sandy Hook garbage they'd created.

他还做到了，如果你用谷歌搜索他们的名字，任何人首先看到的就是他们创造的所有桑迪胡克垃圾。

And Lenny being Lenny decided to write a biography about Wolfgang Halbig's life, called The Hoax of a Lifetime.

莱尼就是莱尼，决定写一本关于沃尔夫冈·哈尔比格一生的传记，名为《一生的骗局》。

He released it as an e-book.

他将其发布为电子书。

Lenny became "the one who knocks."

莱尼成为“敲门的人”。

He calls this troll wrestling.

他称之为巨魔摔跤。

It's like trolling the trolls.

这就像拖钓巨魔。

He gets both energized and sheepish when talking about it.

谈论这件事时，他既充满活力又羞涩。

He insists sometimes the only way to fight hardcore hoaxers is to turn the tables on them.

他坚称，有时打击铁杆骗子的唯一方法就是扭转局面。

And it worked on some of them.

它对其中一些人有效。

It freaked them out.

这把他们吓坏了。

Still, Lenny was just one guy.

尽管如此，莱尼只是一个人。

And every day, new mountains of content about Noah were showing up online.

每天，网上都会出现大量有关诺亚的新内容。

His crusade was a lonely one.

他的十字军东征是一场孤独的十字军东征。

The hoaxers seemed so dangerous, most of the other Newtown parents wanted to stay as far away as possible from them.

骗子看起来非常危险，纽敦的大多数其他家长都想尽可能远离他们。

In my darker moments, the conspiracy part of me would return and ask myself, am I the only one that lost a child?

在我最黑暗的时刻，我内心的阴谋部分会回来问自己，我是唯一一个失去孩子的人吗？

Why am I the only one fighting back?

为什么只有我一个人反抗？

I mean, what the hell is going on?

我的意思是，到底发生了什么事？

I mean, people were trampling all over other peoples' children's memories.

我的意思是，人们正在践踏别人孩子的记忆。

And those children no longer had a voice to defend themselves.

而那些孩子也不再有为自己辩护的声音。

And people were just silent about it.

人们对此保持沉默。

But while Lenny was escalating his tactics, so was the other side.

但当莱尼的战术升级时，对方也在升级。

Around the second anniversary of Sandy Hook, a small group of conspiracy theorists made an almost three-hour movie on YouTube questioning the shooting.

桑迪·胡克事件两周年纪念日前后，一小群阴谋论者在 YouTube 上制作了一部近三个小时的电影，质疑枪击事件。

They described themselves as independent journalists and researchers, but their backgrounds were totally random.

他们将自己描述为独立记者和研究人员，但他们的背景完全是随机的。

They included a magician, the owner of a moving company, a guy who'd been arrested for stabbing someone five times, and a stay-at-home dad.

他们包括一名魔术师、一家搬家公司的老板、一名因刺伤他人五次而被捕的人，以及一名全职爸爸。

I just had an idea that I wanted to be an underground filmmaker myself.

我只是有一个想法，我自己想成为一名地下电影制片人。

This is Doug Maguire.

这是道格·马奎尔。

He says he met this group online on YouTube and got brought in at the end to help polish the movie.

他说他在 YouTube 上认识了这个团队，最后被邀请来帮助完善这部电影。

It felt exciting.

感觉很刺激。

At the time, Doug was a struggling filmmaker in Los Angeles.

当时，道格是洛杉矶一名苦苦挣扎的电影制片人。

Occasionally he did some stunt work.

偶尔他也会做一些特技表演。

He got into conspiracy theories the way lots of people do-- watching them on YouTube.

他像很多人一样陷入阴谋论——在 YouTube 上观看阴谋论。

Like Lenny, he loved the ones about Bigfoot and UFOs.

和莱尼一样，他也喜欢有关大脚怪和不明飞行物的故事。

But then he went to look up news about Sandy Hook.

但随后他去查找有关桑迪·胡克的新闻。

And YouTube's recommendation system started suggesting hoax videos.

YouTube 的推荐系统开始推荐恶作剧视频。

He didn't believe the theory that the kids were actors.

他不相信孩子们是演员的理论。

He thought children died.

他认为孩子们死了。

But he felt pretty sure there was some other kind of cover-up going on, maybe one with the mafia.

但他非常确定还有其他类型的掩盖行为正在发生，也许是黑手党的掩盖行为。

And where did you get that information?

您从哪里获得这些信息？

Like, where did you come up with this idea of a mob?

比如，你是从哪里想到暴徒这个想法的？

Had you read this somewhere?

你在哪里读过这篇文章吗？

No, it was because I make movies.

不，那是因为我拍电影。

So I think I have an active imagination.

所以我认为我有活跃的想象力。

Wait, hold on, I'm confused.

等等，等等，我很困惑。

Like, what was your thinking?

就像，你在想什么？

A family had done someone wrong.

一个家庭做错了某人。

Like, let's say the movie Goodfellas.

就像电影《好家伙》一样。

OK?

可以吗？

Henry Hill is hiding out in a little village.

亨利·希尔躲在一个小村庄里。

When they release their film, they uploaded it to a bunch of different accounts, on places like YouTube, Vimeo, and Dailymotion.

当他们发布电影时，他们将其上传到 YouTube、Vimeo 和 Dailymotion 等许多不同的帐户。

Pretty soon, it was showing up everywhere.

很快，它就出现在各处。

To combat this, Lenny had to change tactics one final time.

为了解决这个问题，莱尼不得不最后一次改变策略。

No more talking to hoaxers one-on-one.

不再与骗子一对一交谈。

Now, the thing he'd focus on was content removal-- scrubbing their stuff off the internet.

现在，他要关注的事情是内容删除——从互联网上清除他们的内容。

He decided he was going to get every single copy of the movie taken down, which wasn't going to be easy.

他决定把这部电影的每一个副本都拿下来，但这并不容易。

He couldn't just write into YouTube and say, hey, this video is full of lies.

他不能只是写信给 YouTube 说，嘿，这个视频充满了谎言。

That wasn't going to be enough.

这还不够。

The internet is full of lies.

互联网充满了谎言。

He needed something else.

他需要别的东西。

And he realized he had it.

他意识到他拥有了它。

These conspiracy theorists had used photos and videos of him, and Noah, and Veronique.

这些阴谋论者使用了他、诺亚和维罗妮克的照片和视频。

Those were his property, making this movie a copyright violation.

这些是他的财产，这使得这部电影侵犯了版权。

The stolen images were now a useful weapon.

被盗的图像现在是一种有用的武器。

Lenny tracked down every place where this video was posted.

莱尼找到了发布该视频的每个地点。

And you've probably seen this.

你可能已经看过这个。

There's a little button you can click on to report stuff.

有一个小按钮，您可以单击来报告内容。

So that's what he did for hours every day.

这就是他每天几个小时所做的事情。

And success-- sort of.

以及成功——某种程度上。

The hoaxers kept re-posting and moving the video on to other sites.

恶作剧者不断重新发布视频并将其转移到其他网站。

You know, the crazies are not running the asylum.

你知道，精神病院并不是由疯子管理的。

It's the platforms who are allowing this to go on.

是平台允许这种情况继续下去。

So that solidifies it for me that we have to just remove all of this garbage, and that's all we need to do.

所以这对我来说更加坚定了我们必须清除所有这些垃圾，这就是我们需要做的。

But this, of course, pissed off a lot of hoaxers.

但这当然激怒了很多骗子。

We don't know what's going on.

我们不知道发生了什么事。

We just know it doesn't look right.

我们只知道它看起来不对劲。

Alex Jones.

亚历克斯·琼斯。

He was stumped.

他被难住了。

Lenny had successfully forced the Infowars site to remove pictures of Noah using copyright.

莱尼成功地迫使 Infowars 网站删除了使用版权的诺亚的照片。

So frustrating.

太令人沮丧了。

This is amazing.

这太棒了。

The claimant is Lenny Pozner.

原告是莱尼·波兹纳。

They think because they can hold out some little kids and say we're shutting people's websites down because they're belittling the memory of these children-- no, we're not.

他们之所以这样想，是因为他们可以把一些小孩子拒之门外，并说我们正在关闭人们的网站，因为他们贬低了这些孩子的记忆——不，我们不是。

But even if we were, you couldn't violate our First Amendment, because that's what it's there for.

但即使我们这样做，你也不能违反我们的第一修正案，因为这就是它的目的。

And if you take our rights, you take everybody's rights.

如果你剥夺了我们的权利，你也就剥夺了每个人的权利。

Then Jones put one of the guys who worked on the movie on the air.

然后琼斯让一名参与这部电影的人播出。

His name is Brian.

他的名字叫布莱恩。

He's from Alabama.

他来自阿拉巴马州。

What do you think of us being censored?

您对我们受到审查有何看法？

What's been happening to you?

你怎么了？

I can tell you a lot about Lenny.

我可以告诉你很多关于莱尼的事情。

This man is something that you've never seen before.

这个男人是你以前从未见过的。

He's got a group of trolls.

他有一群巨魔。

And if you--

如果你——

I mean, if they're trying to shut us down when we're just investigating it and looking at all sides, it must be horrible for folks out there that vehemently think this is staged.

我的意思是，如果他们在我们刚刚调查此事并从各个方面进行调查时就试图关闭我们，那么对于那些强烈认为这是上演的人来说，这一定是可怕的。

So just specifically, what have you gone through?

那么具体来说，你经历了什么？

I can't even put up a video showing that he has put up a copyright strike against me without him copyrighting striking that.

我什至无法发布一段视频，显示他对我提出了版权警告，而他却没有对我进行版权警告。

These people are vile.

这些人很卑鄙。

And Lenny, if you're listening, your day is coming, my friend.

莱尼，如果你在听的话，你的日子即将到来，我的朋友。

It is coming.

它来了。

Wow, I mean, this sounds like a war is going on.

哇，我的意思是，这听起来像是一场战争正在发生。

I think they made a major mistake involving us.

我认为他们在我们身上犯了一个重大错误。

Oh, I totally agree.

哦，我完全同意。

They don't know what they've bit off.

他们不知道自己咬掉了什么。

Go after them, Alex.

追他们吧，亚历克斯。

Crush them.

粉碎他们。

In this video on YouTube, Jones showed his fans-- he had millions of them-- Lenny's email, the city he lived in, and the address he picked up his mail.

在 YouTube 上的这段视频中，琼斯向他的粉丝（他有数百万粉丝）展示了莱尼的电子邮件、他居住的城市以及他领取邮件的地址。

He even held up some satellite shots from Google Earth.

他甚至举起了谷歌地球的一些卫星照片。

Lenny got this video taken down too, flagging it for privacy violations.

莱尼也删除了这段视频，并将其标记为侵犯隐私。

But it didn't matter.

但这并不重要。

The hoaxers had taken on a mob mentality, pursuing and harassing Lenny.

骗子们采取了暴徒心态，追逐并骚扰莱尼。

This is an Infowars fan named Lucy Richards, who left multiple death threats on Lenny's phone.

这是一位名叫露西·理查兹（Lucy Richards）的 Infowars 粉丝，她在莱尼的手机上留下了多条死亡威胁。

Did you hide your imaginary son in the attic?

你把你想象中的儿子藏在阁楼里了吗？

Are you still fucking him?

你还在操他吗？

You fucking Jew bastard.

你他妈的犹太人混蛋。

You're going to die.

你会死的。

You're going to rot in hell.

你会在地狱里腐烂。

Death is coming to you real soon and there's nothing you can do about it.

死亡很快就会降临到你身上，而你对此却无能为力。

So you're just going to have to take it, OK?

所以你只能接受它，好吗？

Jew bastard.

犹太人混蛋。

Look behind you.

看看你身后。

Death is coming to you real soon.

死亡很快就会真正降临到你身上。

She said, "Look behind you.

她说：“看看你的身后。

Death is coming to you real soon."

死亡很快就会降临到你身上。”

Lenny was already living in hiding.

莱尼已经躲藏起来了。

He'd moved multiple times by then because hoaxers kept tracking down his address.

那时他已经搬过好几次家了，因为骗子不断追踪他的地址。

But now the chances that a hoaxer might show up at his door and kill him suddenly felt much higher.

但现在，骗子出现在他家门口并杀死他的可能性突然变得更高了。

His kids were living with him half the week, and he worried about them.

他的孩子们和他住了半周，他很担心他们。

At the same time, he didn't consider stopping.

与此同时，他也没有考虑停下来。

He didn't think it would make them safer.

他不认为这会让他们更安全。

That's one of the misconceptions that exist, that people think that I am only targeted because of challenging the content.

这是存在的误解之一，人们认为我只是因为挑战内容而成为目标。

And that's not the case.

事实并非如此。

I took the action because I was being targeted.

我采取行动是因为我成为目标。

So if my address is published all over the internet, my photo was published all over the internet, and my living children's photos are published online, that existed before I did anything.

因此，如果我的地址在互联网上发布，我的照片在互联网上发布，我活着的孩子的照片在网上发布，这些在我做任何事情之前就已经存在了。

I didn't cause the targeting.

我没有引起目标。

It was already there.

它已经在那里了。

I was minimizing the targeting.

我正在最小化目标。

He posted receipts for firearms.

他张贴了枪支收据。

I'd asked if he actually bought them, and he wouldn't give me an answer.

我问他是不是真的买的，他不给我答案。

Amidst all this, Lenny kept up his daily ritual.

在这一切之中，莱尼继续着他的日常仪式。

He'd wake up, make coffee, and then sit in front of his computer for hours, flagging content, trying to systematically erase Noah from the Sandy Hook hoax story.

他会醒来，煮咖啡，然后坐在电脑前几个小时，标记内容，试图系统地将诺亚从桑迪胡克骗局故事中抹去。

There was a lot of stuff he couldn't invoke copyright law for, like the death threats and harassment.

有很多事情他无法援引版权法，例如死亡威胁和骚扰。

That was much harder to get taken down.

想要被拿下要困难得多。

The tech companies were wary of becoming arbiters of truth, making decisions about what its users could and couldn't say.

科技公司对成为事实的仲裁者持谨慎态度，对用户可以说什么和不能说什么做出决定。

But Lenny, in his usual methodical fashion, kept chipping away.

但莱尼以他一贯的有条不紊的方式，不断地努力。

On YouTube, he kept a scorecard.

在 YouTube 上，他保留了一份记分卡。

Once he nailed someone with three copyright strikes, YouTube would remove their accounts.

一旦他对某人发出了三次版权警告，YouTube就会删除他们的帐户。

He killed thousands of videos this way.

他就这样杀掉了数千个视频。

The hoaxers called this "getting Poznered." He'd become a hashtag.

恶作剧者称之为“陷入波兹纳”。他已经成为一个话题标签。

Then he and Veronique helped get a professor in Florida named James Tracy fired.

然后他和维罗妮克帮助佛罗里达州一位名叫詹姆斯·特雷西的教授被解雇。

This guy had harassed them for years and kept using Noah's image to promote his conspiracy theories.

这家伙骚扰他们多年，还不断利用诺亚的形象来宣扬他的阴谋论。

He's also the one who helped popularize the conspiracy term "crisis actor" on his blog right after the shooting.

他也是枪击事件发生后立即在他的博客上帮助流行“危机演员”这一阴谋术语的人。

And that woman who was leaving death threats, Lucy Richards, Lenny reported her to the police and they arrested her.

那个留下死亡威胁的女人，露西·理查兹，莱尼向警方举报了她，他们逮捕了她。

She was sentenced to five months in jail.

她被判处五个月监禁。

The judge rebuked her for going after Lenny, saying, quote, "This is a reality and there is no fiction.

法官斥责她追捕莱尼，并说：“这是现实，没有虚构。

There are no alternative facts." He barred her from Infowars and other conspiracy websites as one of the conditions of her parole.

没有其他事实。”他禁止她访问 Infowars 和其他阴谋网站，作为她假释的条件之一。

One surprising thing that happened over the years is that some of the hoaxers who used to harass Lenny flipped to his side.

多年来发生的一件令人惊讶的事情是，一些曾经骚扰莱尼的骗子转向了他的一边。

There were dozens of them.

他们有几十个。

Lenny says these were people who came to him only after they changed their own minds, not people he tried to convert.

莱尼说，这些人是在改变主意后才来找他的，而不是他试图改变的人。

He says that never works.

他说那永远行不通。

It's a waste of time.

这是浪费时间。

Some of them became disenchanted when they saw Sandy Hook hoaxers who were more interested in photoshopping evidence and getting online followers than tracking down the truth.

当他们看到桑迪胡克骗子更感兴趣的是修图证据和吸引网上粉丝而不是追查真相时，他们中的一些人变得不再抱有幻想。

One of them was Doug, who worked on that hoaxer movie about Sandy Hook.

道格就是其中之一，他参与了一部关于桑迪·胡克的恶作剧电影的制作。

In 2016, he found a phone number for Lenny and left a voicemail.

2016年，他找到了莱尼的电话号码并留下了语音信箱。

"Hey, Lenny Pozner, this is dickhead Doug Maguire.

“嘿，莱尼·波兹纳，我是白痴道格·马奎尔。

If you ever need me, if you ever want to get a hold of me and learn about what all these people are up to, here's my number."

如果你需要我，如果你想联系我并了解这些人在做什么，这是我的电话号码。”

I don't believe I did.

我不相信我做到了。

Miki Meek Not surprisingly, Lenny didn't return his call.

米基·米克 毫不奇怪，莱尼没有回电话。

Doug was reaching out to Lenny because the hoaxers had turned on him too.

道格正在向莱尼伸出援手，因为骗子也向他发起了攻击。

He says he started feuding with some of them after he made a video exposing a Christian YouTuber who was making money off false, outrageous claims.

他说，在他制作了一段视频，揭露一名基督徒 YouTuber 通过虚假、无耻的言论赚钱后，他开始与其中一些人发生争执。

All of his social media accounts then got hacked.

随后他的所有社交媒体帐户都被黑客入侵。

Lenny was the only person he could think of who knew how to fight back.

莱尼是他能想到的唯一一个懂得反击的人。

He wanted advice.

他想要建议。

So he tried him again and got through.

于是他又试了一次，终于成功了。

He told Lenny that it felt like he'd been sort of brainwashed, that he'd been on a roller coaster ride, that he wanted to switch sides.

他告诉莱尼，感觉自己好像被洗脑了，就像坐过山车一样，他想改变立场。

Lenny had started a nonprofit called The HONR Network, where volunteers help families from mass tragedies fight digital harassment.

莱尼创办了一个名为“荣誉网络”的非营利组织，志愿者帮助遭受大规模悲剧的家庭对抗数字骚扰。

So Doug began helping him scrub content.

于是道格开始帮助他清理内容。

When you were doing it, did you feel like you were doing penance?

当你这样做的时候，你觉得你在苦修吗？

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

And my heart is very heavy for this.

为此我的心情非常沉重。

Were you surprised at how quickly Lenny let you in?

你对莱尼这么快就让你进来感到惊讶吗？

Yeah.

是的。

And I still am.

我现在仍然如此。

The fact that he even is giving me a chance, I'm very humbled.

事实上他甚至给了我机会，我感到非常谦卑。

I tell him I love him.

我告诉他我爱他。

I tell him that he's, like, my mentor.

我告诉他，他就像是我的导师。

Sometimes I call him "boss," and he says, "Don't call me boss." So--

有时我叫他“老板”，他说：“别叫我老板。”所以——

Have you apologized to other families at Sandy Hook?

您向桑迪胡克的其他家庭道歉了吗？

No. I think just to try to, like, call up one of these families, that-- they don't-- they don't need to hear from some kind of YouTuber guy in Los Angeles.

不。我想，只要尝试给这些家庭中的一个打电话，他们就不需要收到洛杉矶某位 YouTuber 的来信。

I think, like, one day-- I am very sorry, very sorry for any problems to the-- to any victims.

我想，有一天，我对给任何受害者带来的任何问题感到非常抱歉，非常抱歉。

Doug is now one of Lenny's most devoted volunteers.

道格现在是莱尼最忠诚的志愿者之一。

Lenny's got more than 100 people helping him out at any given time, though the burnout rate is high because the work is so intense.

莱尼在任何特定时间都有 100 多人帮助他，但由于工作强度太大，倦怠率很高。

And hoaxers harass volunteers like Doug all the time for helping Lenny.

恶作剧者一直骚扰像道格这样帮助莱尼的志愿者。

When Lenny googles Noah's name now, he no longer gets page after page of hoaxer content.

当莱尼现在用谷歌搜索诺亚的名字时，他不再看到一页又一页的恶作剧内容。

A lot of it is gone now.

现在很多都消失了。

Instead, the first hits that come up are news articles about Lenny's fight to make the tech companies more accountable.

相反，最先出现的热门文章是有关莱尼为让科技公司承担更多责任而奋斗的新闻文章。

For years, he's been criticizing them in the press for not doing more to protect families of mass tragedies from online abuse.

多年来，他一直在媒体上批评他们没有采取更多措施来保护遭受大规模悲剧的家庭免受网络虐待。

Last summer, he and Veronique called out Mark Zuckerberg in an open letter in The Guardian.

去年夏天，他和维罗妮克在《卫报》的一封公开信中批评了马克·扎克伯格。

They wrote, quote, "You, arguably the most powerful man on the planet, have deemed that the attacks on us are immaterial, that providing assistance in removing threats is too cumbersome, and that our lives are less important than providing a safe haven for hate."

他们写道，“你，可以说是地球上最有权势的人，认为对我们的攻击是无关紧要的，为消除威胁提供援助太麻烦了，我们的生命不如为仇恨提供安全避难所重要。”

Shortly after, Facebook reached out to Lenny.

不久之后，Facebook 联系了 Lenny。

He started working with their content moderators and policymakers, and says their response times are now much faster.

他开始与他们的内容审核者和政策制定者合作，并表示他们的响应时间现在快得多。

He also helped turn up the heat on Alex Jones.

他还帮助提高了对亚历克斯·琼斯的压力。

Last spring, he and Veronique, and another dad from Newtown, filed defamation lawsuits against him.

去年春天，他和维罗妮克以及来自纽敦的另一位父亲对他提起诽谤诉讼。

Other parents followed with their own suit.

其他家长也纷纷效仿。

A few months later, Apple started removing Jones's material from iTunes, saying they would not, quote, "tolerate hate speech." Facebook, Google, and Spotify then followed suit.

几个月后，苹果开始从 iTunes 中删除琼斯的资料，称他们不会“容忍仇恨言论”。 Facebook、谷歌和 Spotify 随后也纷纷效仿。

YouTube killed his channel completely, but you can still find his videos on the platform.

YouTube彻底关闭了他的频道，但你仍然可以在该平台上找到他的视频。

And Twitter was one of the last to take action against Jones and Infowars.

Twitter 是最后对 Jones 和 Infowars 采取行动的公司之一。

The New York Times reported that getting deplatformed cut his online audience nearly in half.

据《纽约时报》报道，他的在线受众减少了近一半。

I met up with Lenny at his place recently.

我最近在莱尼家遇见了他。

He lives in a gated, high-security residence.

他住在一个有门禁、高度戒备的住宅里。

He was filing copyright and harassment reports to places like Instagram, Pinterest, Reddit, Vimeo, and Twitter.

他向 Instagram、Pinterest、Reddit、Vimeo 和 Twitter 等网站提交版权和骚扰报告。

He says Twitter is his biggest headache right now.

他说 Twitter 是他目前最头疼的问题。

There's content about Noah he still can't get down.

关于诺亚的内容他仍然无法放下。

And he gets personally attacked there all the time.

他在那里总是受到人身攻击。

Do you feel like you've like jumped in this rabbit hole that is never going to end?

您是否感觉自己就像跳进了这个永远不会结束的兔子洞？

I don't think I jumped in.

我想我没有跳进去。

I think I just got pulled in.

我想我只是被拉进去了。

You're just constantly subjecting yourself to just so much hateful material.

你只是不断地让自己受到这么多可恨的材料的影响。

Just like throwing trash out.

就像扔垃圾一样。

Once it's gone, it feels really good.

一旦消失了，感觉真的很好。

It really does.

确实如此。

This is what victory looks like-- taking the trash out every day.

这就是胜利的样子——每天把垃圾倒掉。

He recently spotted one of the hoaxers who's been after him.

他最近发现了一名跟踪他的骗子。

Turns out, the person lives nearby.

原来，这个人就住在附近。

Lenny's about to have to move again.

莱尼又要搬家了。

This will be the eighth time.

这将是第八次。

Miki Meek.

米基·米克.

Since we first broadcast this story in 2019, Lenny, Veronique, and other parents from Sandy Hook have scored some big victories.

自从我们在 2019 年首次播出这个故事以来，莱尼、维罗妮克和桑迪胡克的其他家长已经取得了一些重大胜利。

They won defamation lawsuits against Alex Jones.

他们赢得了针对亚历克斯·琼斯的诽谤诉讼。

Lenny and these families also received a $73 million settlement from Remington.

莱尼和这些家庭还从雷明顿公司获得了 7300 万美元的和解金。

It is notoriously difficult to sue gun manufacturers for the way their guns are used, but the families focused on how Remington marketed their guns to very young people.

众所周知，起诉枪支制造商的枪支使用方式非常困难，但这些家庭关注的是雷明顿如何向非常年轻人推销他们的枪支。

This is the largest payout a gun manufacturer has ever given out for a mass shooting.

这是枪支制造商为大规模枪击事件支付的最大一笔赔偿金。

[MUSIC - "THE WATER" BY JOHNNY FLYNN FEAT.

[音乐 - 约翰尼·弗林的“THE WATER”壮举。

LAURA MARLING]

劳拉·马林]

Credits Ira Glass Well, today's program was put together by Emanuele Berry, David Kestenbaum, Miki Meek, and myself, with production help from Michele Navarro, Stowe Nelson, Matt Tierney, and Diane Wu.

图片来源 Ira Glass 嗯，今天的节目是由 Emanuele Berry、David Kestenbaum、Miki Meek 和我自己制作的，并得到了 Michele Navarro、Stowe Nelson、Matt Tierney 和 Diane Wu 的制作帮助。

Our website, thisamericanlife.org, where you can stream our archive of over 750 episodes for absolutely free.

我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org，您可以在其中完全免费地观看我们的 750 多集档案。

Also, there's videos, and lists of favorite shows, tons of other stuff there.

此外，还有视频、最喜欢的节目列表以及大量其他内容。

Again, thisamericanlife.org.

再说一次，thisamericanlife.org。

This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.

《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。

Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.

一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。

You know, he told me he went to see this documentary about navy pilots this week.

你知道，他告诉我他这周去看了这部关于海军飞行员的纪录片。

He was completely outraged.

他彻底被激怒了。

He said it had a bombastic tone, it was overdramatic.

他说这有一种夸张的语气，太过戏剧化了。

He told me, whoever put together this documentary, Top Gun: Maverick, does not understand the basic principles of journalism.

他告诉我，无论是谁制作了这部纪录片《壮志凌云：特立独行》，他都不了解新闻业的基本原则。

They clearly used actors.

他们显然使用了演员。

Ira Glass I'm Ira Glass.

艾拉·格拉斯 我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Back next week with more stories of this American life.

下周我们将带来更多有关美国生活的故事。

[MUSIC - "THE WATER" BY JOHNNY FLYNN FEAT.

[音乐 - 约翰尼·弗林的“THE WATER”壮举。

LAURA MARLING]

劳拉·马林]

This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.

《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。