770: My Lying Eyes - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #770 | May 6, 2022 770: My Lying Eyes Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 770 集 | 2022 年 5 月 6 日 770：我的谎言注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass
序言：序言 艾拉·格拉斯
The new guy had been there for a month, and he was coming to meetings all the time.
新人来了一个月了，他总是来参加会议。
And the meetings were on Zoom, but he never turned on his camera.
会议是在 Zoom 上进行的，但他从未打开相机。
One of his co-workers, Phil, says that wasn't a big deal.
他的一位同事菲尔说这没什么大不了的。
Lots of people do that.
很多人都这么做。
This was a tech startup.
这是一家科技初创公司。
Maybe it's just engineers.
也许只是工程师。
Maybe it's our company culture.
也许这就是我们的企业文化。
I always have my camera off.
我总是关闭相机。
But then his fourth week on the job, the new guy turned it on.
但在他上任的第四周，新人就开始发挥作用了。
And then that's when I was like, what the?
然后我就想，什么？
Like, who is this guy?
比如，这个人是谁？
And when you say, who is this guy, why?
当你说，这个人是谁，为什么？
What were you seeing versus what you were expecting to see?
您所看到的与您期望看到的是什么？
Well, so when I interviewed him, he had his camera on.
嗯，所以当我采访他时，他打开了相机。
And literally, he looked different, like physically just different.
从字面上看，他看起来不一样了，就像身体上的不同一样。
Also, during the job interview, every time this guy would answer a question, he'd give this big smile.
而且，在面试过程中，每次这家伙回答问题时，都会露出灿烂的笑容。
It was almost as if he was tying a bow around his answer, and this pleasant smile.
他的回答和这令人愉快的微笑几乎就像是在打一个蝴蝶结。
He was charming.
他很有魅力。
This guy on the Zoom, no pleasant smile.
Zoom上的这个家伙，没有愉快的笑容。
No smile at all.
完全没有笑容。
In fact, just the opposite.
事实上，恰恰相反。
He was sort of a scowling, dark presence.
他是一个愁眉苦脸、阴暗的存在。
But there's another part to it.
但还有另一部分。
The other part of it was-- I'm trying to find the most PC way to say this, but-- so like he's Indian.
另一部分是——我试图找到最个人化的方式来表达这一点，但是——就像他是印度人一样。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Phil And so there-- you know, there was a part of me that, like-- I'll put it this way.
菲尔所以——你知道，我的一部分，就像——我会这样说。
I'm Asian American.
我是亚裔美国人。
I've had Caucasian friends mention to me, hey, that guy over there, he looks exactly like you.
我有白人朋友向我提起，嘿，那边那个人，他看起来和你一模一样。
And I'm like, dude, that guy does not look like me at all, you know?
我就想，老兄，那家伙看起来一点都不像我，你知道吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Phil So I sort of had that thought, too.
菲尔 所以我也有这样的想法。
And I felt a little bit guilty about it, to be honest.
老实说，我对此感到有点内疚。
I was like, oh, I was like-- I guess this is the right person, and it's kind of on me.
我当时想，哦，我想——我想这是合适的人选，而且有点适合我。
Wait, wait.
等等，等等。
But are you saying that you thought, oh, wait a second, he looks really different, but maybe I just can't tell with an Indian person.
但你是说你认为，哦，等一下，他看起来真的很不一样，但也许我只是无法分辨出一个印度人。
Like, am I racist?
比如，我是种族主义者吗？
Is that what you're saying?
你是这么说的吗？
Yes, but I'm not racist.
是的，但我不是种族主义者。
Yeah, I'm saying like, maybe--
是的，我是说，也许——
But I'm saying, that was the question in your head.
但我想说的是，这就是你脑子里的问题。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Exactly.
确切地。
Ira Glass Phil kept all this to himself, though there was another person who noticed there was something different about the new guy.
艾拉·格拉斯·菲尔（Ira Glass Phil）对这一切都保密，尽管有另一个人注意到这个新人有些不同。
That somebody else was Phil's boss, Subra, who also supervised the new guy, who hired him, and who is Indian.
这个人是菲尔的老板苏布拉，他也监督了雇用他的新人，他是印度人。
Subra was struck by one detail in particular.
苏布拉对一个细节特别印象深刻。
So the person who we interviewed, he had curly hair.
我们采访的那个人是卷发的。
Dark, curly hair, memorably curly hair.
深色卷发，令人难忘的卷发。
Like, this was the thing that hit Subra about the guy the first time he interviewed him.
就像，这就是苏布拉第一次采访他时对他的印象。
His hair is similar to one of the Indian saints, Sai Baba-- bushy hair, curly.
他的头发很像印度圣人之一的赛巴巴——浓密的头发，卷曲的。
And then once you see it, you cannot really forget it.
一旦你看到它，你就无法真正忘记它。
Hmm.
唔。
Subra But then, when he was in our meetings, he was not showing his hair.
苏布拉但是，当他参加我们的会议时，他没有露出他的头发。
He was only showing up to his forehead.
他只露出额头。
He was not showing his hair.
他没有露出他的头发。
Wow.
哇。
I have to say, you really have to position yourself close to the camera for it not to see your hair.
我不得不说，你真的必须把自己的位置靠近相机，才不会看到你的头发。
Yeah.
是的。
I mean, I did that.
我的意思是，我就是这么做的。
I asked him, could you please show your complete face?
我问他，你能露出你的完整脸吗？
And that's when Subra saw the new guy didn't have that big, bushy, curly hair.
就在那时，苏布拉发现这个新人没有那么大、浓密、卷曲的头发。
And then I asked him, did you get a haircut?
然后我就问他，你剪头发了吗？
And he said, yes, I had a haircut.
他说，是的，我理发了。
Then I doubted myself.
然后我就怀疑自己了。
He doubted himself.
他怀疑自己。
He thought, he'd been interviewing so many job applicants lately.
他想，最近他面试的求职者太多了。
Their tech company was rapidly expanding.
他们的科技公司正在迅速扩张。
He thought maybe he was remembering wrong.
他想也许自己记错了。
Phil, meanwhile, knew none of this.
与此同时，菲尔对此一无所知。
Then one day, Phil was in a Zoom meeting with the new guy.
然后有一天，菲尔正在与新人一起参加 Zoom 会议。
And for a second time, the new guy flipped on his camera.
新人第二次打开了相机。
And surprise.
和惊喜。
And it turned out to be the guy from the interview.
结果就是采访中的那个人。
Instantly, there he is, right?
立刻，他就在那里，对吗？
And then came utter confusion of, what the hell's happening here?
然后完全混乱了，这里到底发生了什么？
Oh, my god.
我的天啊。
OK, now there are two different people.
好吧，现在有两个不同的人了。
I don't know what to think.
我不知道该怎么想。
In the back of my head, I was like, there just can't be two people.
在我的脑海里，我想，不可能有两个人。
OK, so not long after that, Subra is meeting with Phil about some stuff.
好吧，不久之后，苏布拉就与菲尔会面讨论一些事情。
And Subra asks him something like, the new guy, does he look different to you?
苏布拉问他，新来的人，你觉得他有什么不同吗？
Phil says it was a huge relief to even be asked the question, to know that somebody else saw it.
菲尔说，即使被问到这个问题，也知道有人看到了它，我感到非常欣慰。
And they figured out what happened.
他们知道发生了什么。
A very qualified guy with bushy hair and a big smile interviewed for the job, and then a less charming, shorter-haired guy showed up for the job.
一个非常合格的人，头发浓密，笑容满面，接受了这份工作的面试，然后一个不那么迷人的短发人出现了这份工作。
It turns out he wasn't all that qualified, didn't actually understand the tasks he was given.
事实证明他不太合格，并没有真正理解他所承担的任务。
They fired him.
他们解雇了他。
Though I should say, Subra told me, if he could have done the work, he'd have kept him.
尽管我应该说，苏布拉告诉我，如果他能完成这项工作，他就会留住他。
He didn't care who he was.
他不在乎他是谁。
And I bring all this up because I think it's so interesting, that period.
我提出这一切是因为我认为那段时期非常有趣。
It was like days when both Subra and Phil, they knew the truth, they saw it with their own eyes, couldn't be anything else, but each of them talks himself out of it, doubts the evidence that's right in front of him.
就像苏布拉和菲尔都知道真相的日子，他们亲眼所见，不可能是别的什么，但他们每个人都说服自己不再这样做，怀疑眼前的证据。
Phil says a big reason that he doubted the truth that one guy would interview for the job, and then another guy would show up, was that he just didn't know that that kind of thing was on the table as a possibility.
菲尔说，他怀疑一个人会面试这份工作，然后另一个人会出现的事实，一个重要原因是他只是不知道这种事情有可能出现。
The thought of this guy not being that person is just so crazy.
这个人不是那个人的想法真是太疯狂了。
Why would I even think that, you know?
为什么我会这么想，你知道吗？
Yeah, like who would even think to do this?
是啊，谁会想到这么做呢？
Well, today on our program, we have other stories of people looking squarely at the truth, staring right at it, and they still find it hard to believe what's right in front of their eyes, for all kinds of reasons.
好吧，今天在我们的节目中，我们还有其他故事，人们正视事实，直视事实，但出于各种原因，他们仍然很难相信眼前的事情。
Our power to deny the reality of what we're seeing is like one of our superpowers as a species.
我们否认所看到的现实的能力就像我们作为一个物种的超能力之一。
And if you doubt that, well, just stick around.
如果你对此表示怀疑，那么，就留下来吧。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act 1, She Blinded Us with Science.
第一幕，她用科学蒙蔽了我们。
So our program today is about not believing what is right in front of you.
所以我们今天的节目是关于不要相信眼前的事情。
When you're on the other side of that, when you can see what other people are refusing to see, what do you do?
当你站在另一边，当你能看到其他人拒绝看到的东西时，你会做什么？
What's your move?
你有什么举动？
Well, Chana Joffe-Walt talked to a woman in that situation about how she came to see what others couldn't and about what she did with that knowledge.
查娜·乔夫-沃尔特 (Chana Joffe-Walt) 与一位处于这种情况的女性谈论了她如何看到别人看不到的东西，以及她利用这些知识做了什么。
Quick heads up that this story talks about research into sexual assault.
快速提醒一下，这个故事谈论的是性侵犯的研究。
I knew one thing about her when I first called.
当我第一次打电话时，我就知道她的一件事。
Tell me your name and, I guess, your name and what you are most famous for.
告诉我你的名字，我想，你的名字以及你最出名的事情。
My name is Mary Koss.
我叫玛丽·科斯。
I feel like an athlete who had their biggest success when they were very young, and then spent the rest of their life trying to do important things, but never achieving the initial level of recognition.
我觉得自己就像一名运动员，在很小的时候就取得了最大的成功，然后用余生尝试做重要的事情，但从未达到最初的认可水平。
OK, so she's not going to mention the one thing she's known for.
好吧，所以她不会提及她出名的一件事。
I will, but give me a minute.
我会的，但请给我一分钟。
I want you to hear the way she discovered it.
我想让你听听她是如何发现它的。
She was at a new job, 27 years old.
她27岁，找到了一份新工作。
She was a brand new professor, Psychology Department, 1976.
1976年，她是心理学系的一位全新教授。
On my first day at Kent State University in Ohio, I'm walking in a double door.
在俄亥俄州肯特州立大学的第一天，我走进一扇双门。
So I'm going in one side, and there's a man rushing out of the other door.
所以我要从一侧进去，有一个人从另一扇门冲出来。
He stops me, because he recognizes that I'm the new hire.
他阻止了我，因为他认出我是新员工。
And he said, I just got a grant turned down, and they turned it down because I'm a man.
他说，我刚刚获得了一笔拨款被拒绝，他们拒绝了，因为我是一个男人。
So I want you to put your name on it, and we'll resubmit it, and we'll get funded.
所以我希望你把你的名字写在上面，我们将重新提交它，我们将获得资助。
Wait a second.
等一下。
Is there a hello, who are you, my name is, first?
有没有先打个招呼，你是谁，我叫什么？
No. No. I had, frankly, no idea of who he was.
不，不，坦率地说，我不知道他是谁。
So I had the presence of mind to say, well, I probably should read the grant before I put my name on it.
所以我沉着地说，好吧，在我把自己的名字写在上面之前，我可能应该读一下这份拨款。
I thought, oh, wow.
我想，哦，哇。
The grant proposal was that graduate student women would dress up in a back room in different sizes of padded bras, and then they would go out and interact with a male student who did not know that they weren't just a regular student.
拨款提案是，女研究生将在后面的房间里穿上不同尺寸的带衬垫胸罩，然后她们出去与一名男学生互动，而男学生不知道自己不仅仅是一名普通学生。
And then afterwards, this male student would be given a questionnaire and asked to make ratings, among which were, how rapable did you find this woman?
然后，会给这个男学生一份问卷，让他打分，其中有，你觉得这个女人有多容易被强奸？
How likely would she be to have sex with you?
她与你发生性关系的可能性有多大？
And if she were raped, how culpable would she be?
如果她被强奸了，她将承担多大的罪责？
Then, of course--
然后，当然——
What?
什么？
Mary Koss Of course, you know, these same grad students--
玛丽·科斯 当然，你知道，这些研究生——
What?
什么？
Mary Koss went-- would go back in the room, and then the next student would get the same grad student coming out in a gigantic padded bra.
玛丽·科斯（Mary Koss）回到房间，然后下一个学生会看到同一个研究生穿着巨大的带衬垫胸罩出来。
And then, I suppose, that they were going to have some conditions where they came out bound to have no breasts at all.
然后，我想，她们会遇到一些条件，她们出来时肯定根本没有乳房。
I love that what Mary is thinking about at this point in the story is what the control group would be for this experiment.
我喜欢玛丽在故事的这一点上想到的是这个实验的对照组。
Moving forward, I just want to note the difference between me, a squawky non-scientist, jaw dropping at this premise, and Mary Koss, who is now a veteran scientist, who apparently no longer wastes any energy on indignation.
展望未来，我只想指出我和玛丽·科斯之间的区别，我是一个吵闹的非科学家，对这个前提感到惊讶，而玛丽·科斯现在是一位资深科学家，显然不再在愤怒上浪费任何精力。
I wanted to dwell for a few moments in the absurdity of someone thinking to study the rapability of grad students wearing padded bras.
有人想研究穿着带衬垫胸罩的研究生的强奸能力，我想在这个荒谬的想法中停留片刻。
Mary, instead, began making a reasoned argument against it.
相反，玛丽开始提出合理的反对意见。
Federally-funded scientific research, she says, should have policy implications.
她说，联邦资助的科学研究应该具有政策影响。
And the only policy implication I can see in this is that the federal government would have to make available funds for minimizer bras.
我从中看到的唯一政策含义是联邦政府必须为最小化胸罩提供资金。
Wait.
等待。
That's the problem with it?
这就是它的问题吗？
It's not that you're asking male students how rapable their fellow female students are?
你不是在问男同学他们的女同学有多容易被强奸吗？
At the time, what I found most offensive was that he was looking for the causes of rape in breast size.
当时，我觉得最令人反感的是他在乳房大小上寻找强奸的原因。
Yeah, why not butts or hips?
是啊，为什么不是屁股或臀部呢？
Mary Koss [LAUGHING] I know.
玛丽·科斯[笑]我知道。
Maybe today, if I thought about it more deeply, I'd find other aspects of it extremely troubling.
也许今天，如果我更深入地思考它，我会发现它的其他方面非常令人不安。
I mean, it certainly does--
我的意思是，确实如此——
There's plenty.
有很多。
There's a lot to pick from in this particular example.
在这个特定的例子中，有很多东西可供选择。
Yeah.
是的。
Even that long ago, I thought, well, rape victims aren't responsible for what happens to them, rapists are.
即使很久以前，我就想，强奸受害者不需要对发生在他们身上的事情负责，强奸犯才是。
But Mary Koss was on the market for a research project herself.
但玛丽·科斯本人正在寻找一个研究项目。
She read through this one, and there was one question that she was interested in.
她读完了这篇文章，其中有一个问题是她感兴趣的。
When I looked at his proposal, and it said, "--and we'll also do a survey of college students to see how much rape is going on among them," that was a totally unique idea.
当我看到他的提案时，它说：“我们还将对大学生进行一项调查，看看他们中间发生了多少强奸事件”，这是一个完全独特的想法。
So I thought, that's the great opportunity in this application.
所以我想，这就是这个应用程序的绝佳机会。
It's not the padded bra part.
这不是带衬垫的文胸部分。
Lose the padded bras, and let's work on the survey part.
丢掉带衬垫的胸罩，让我们开始调查部分。
She moved forward on the survey part, without her male colleague.
她在调查部分继续进行，没有男同事的陪伴。
Mary Koss would ask college students about their experiences with sex and sexual violence.
玛丽·科斯会向大学生询问他们的性和性暴力经历。
Up to that point, there had been virtually no academic studies of sexual aggression.
到目前为止，几乎还没有关于性侵犯的学术研究。
Federal crime statistics did actually measure incidents of rape, but Mary says the survey asked, essentially, have you been raped?
联邦犯罪统计数据确实衡量了强奸事件，但玛丽说，调查本质上是问你是否被强奸过？
So few women said yes that researchers would conclude that rape is rare or, quote, "clearly an infrequent crime." The whole approach didn't make sense to Mary.
很少有女性表示愿意，因此研究人员会得出结论，强奸很少见，或者引用“显然是一种罕见的犯罪行为”。整个方法对玛丽来说毫无意义。
You don't ask somebody, are you an alcoholic?
你不会问别人，你是酒鬼吗？
Well, first of all, who would want to be an alcoholic?
好吧，首先，谁愿意成为一个酒鬼？
They'd say no. Second of all, alcoholic's a medical diagnosis, so they don't know what the criteria for being an alcoholic are.
他们会说不。其次，酗酒是一种医学诊断，所以他们不知道酗酒的标准是什么。
For those reasons, you translate it into behavioral terms like, how many drinks do you have in a day?
出于这些原因，您将其转化为行为术语，例如您一天喝多少酒？
I decided to do that same thing with asking questions about sexual victimization and perpetration.
我决定做同样的事情，询问有关性受害和性犯罪的问题。
Have you had someone use force or threaten to harm you to have sexual intercourse when you didn't want to?
当您不愿意时，是否有人使用武力或威胁伤害您进行性交？
Have you had a man penetrate you against your will?
你有没有被一个男人违背你的意愿插入过你？
Mary Koss will readily admit now that these are very straight and 1970s gendered questions.
现在，玛丽·科斯 (Mary Koss) 会欣然承认，这些问题都是非常直接的、带有 20 世纪 70 年代性别色彩的问题。
She looked at how rape is defined legally and built her questions around it.
她研究了强奸的法律定义，并围绕它提出了问题。
She'd ask women, have you had this experience?
她会问女性，你们有过这样的经历吗？
What about this?
这又如何呢？
They would turn around and say, yes, that happened to me.
他们会转身说，是的，这发生在我身上。
But no, I've never been raped.
但不，我从未被强奸过。
So when women actually would describe what happened, their experiences would often line up with the legal definition of rape.
因此，当女性真正描述发生的事情时，她们的经历往往与强奸的法律定义相符。
But when you'd ask them, were you raped, they would say no.
但当你问他们，你是否被强奸时，他们会说没有。
Exactly.
确切地。
Chana Joffe-Walt So it's sort of like if somebody asks you, were you robbed, and you say, no, I wasn't robbed.
Chana Joffe-Walt 所以这有点像如果有人问你，你被抢劫了吗，你说，不，我没有被抢劫。
And then if you say, did someone come to your house and take all your things without your permission?
然后如果你说，有人未经你的允许来到你家拿走了你的所有东西吗？
They'd say, oh, yes, that did happen?
他们会说，哦，是的，那确实发生了？
Exactly.
确切地。
Exactly.
确切地。
And then if you said to them, was that robbery or larceny?
然后如果你问他们，这是抢劫还是盗窃？
And they'd say, oh, I have no idea.
他们会说，哦，我不知道。
All I know is my stuff is gone.
我只知道我的东西不见了。
I realized there has to be something called the unacknowledged rape victim-- somebody who has been raped, as defined under the law, but does not use that term, did not perceive her experience that way.
我意识到一定有一种叫做未承认的强奸受害者的东西——根据法律的定义，被强奸的人，但不使用这个词，没有以这种方式看待她的经历。
In the late '70s and early '80s, when Mary Koss was conducting her survey, when her colleague was proposing putting students in padded bras, the popular understanding of rape was this-- rape is something that happens in a back alley with a stranger.
在七十年代末和八十年代初，当玛丽·科斯（Mary Koss）进行调查时，当她的同事提议让学生穿上带衬垫的胸罩时，人们对强奸的普遍理解是这样的——强奸是在后巷与陌生人发生的事情。
Someone jumps out of a bush, or breaks into your house, or hides in your car.
有人从灌木丛中跳出来，或者闯入你的房子，或者躲在你的车里。
If you were deeply unlucky-- and, I guess, if your boobs were too big-- you could be targeted by a rapist.
如果你非常不幸——而且，我猜，如果你的胸部太大——你可能会成为强奸犯的目标。
A rapist was a person you do not know-- a monster, criminal.
强奸犯是一个你不认识的人——一个怪物、一个罪犯。
Rape was not something that happened with your boyfriend, or your relative, or a crush, or a friend, or a guy at a party.
强奸不是发生在你的男朋友、亲戚、暗恋对象、朋友或聚会上的人身上的事情。
The experiences Mary was hearing from women in her survey lined up with the criminal definition.
玛丽在调查中从女性那里听到的经历与犯罪定义相符。
They would describe being physically forced to have sex with a boyfriend, being blackout drunk, being coerced, being on a date.
他们会描述自己被迫与男友发生性关系、喝得酩酊大醉、被胁迫、约会。
And the majority of these women--
这些女性中的大多数——
Found it to be a bad experience, found it to be one of the worst experiences of their lives.
发现这是一次糟糕的经历，发现这是他们一生中最糟糕的经历之一。
They just didn't call it rape.
他们只是不称之为强奸。
Mary Koss finished her survey, sat with her results, stared at them, ran the numbers again.
玛丽·科斯完成了她的调查，坐下来看着她的结果，盯着它们，再次计算了数字。
Mary found that one in four female respondents had an experience that met the legal definition of rape or attempted rape-- one in four.
玛丽发现，四分之一的女性受访者有过符合强奸或强奸未遂的法律定义的经历——四分之一。
Several year later, in 1987, she repeated the survey-- a national survey this time, not just her campus, but 32 college campuses, more than 6,000 undergraduate students.
几年后，即 1987 年，她再次进行了这项调查——这次是全国性的调查，调查对象不只是她所在的校园，而是 32 个大学校园，6000 多名本科生。
Same finding-- one in four.
同样的发现——四分之一。
As reporter Robin Warshaw wrote at the time, Mary Koss had revealed that rape was more common than left-handedness, or heart attacks, alcoholism.
正如记者罗宾·沃肖（Robin Warshaw）当时所写，玛丽·科斯（Mary Koss）透露，强奸比左撇子、心脏病、酗酒更常见。
Mary had revealed something that was so far from the reality we'd been living in, she found she needed new words.
玛丽透露的一些事情与我们一直生活的现实相去甚远，她发现她需要新的词语。
She started calling this acquaintance rape, or hidden rape.
她开始称这个熟人为强奸，或者隐性强奸。
Hidden rape, like hidden from the very people who it happened to.
隐性强奸，就像对发生事件的人隐藏起来一样。
It was hidden from the very people it happened to.
它对发生的人来说是隐藏的。
And because it was hidden from them, it had to be hidden from the rest of society, too.
因为它对他们隐藏，所以它也必须对社会其他人隐藏。
The term for this that caught on was date rape.
流行的术语是约会强奸。
This is the thing I knew about Mary Koss, that she's the person that came up with the concept of date rape, who measured it-- one in four.
这就是我对玛丽·科斯的了解，她是提出约会强奸概念的人，她测量了约会强奸的比例——四分之一。
This is what she achieved early in her career that she will forever be known by and is tired of talking about.
这是她在职业生涯早期所取得的成就，她将永远为人所知，并且厌倦了谈论。
Mary's not what I expected, for a groundbreaking 20th century social scientist.
玛丽并不是我想象中的 20 世纪开创性社会科学家。
She's punchy.
她很有冲劲。
She's fun to talk to.
和她说话很有趣。
I was in New York talking to her.
我当时在纽约和她谈话。
She was in her home in Arizona with a recording engineer.
她和一位录音师一起在亚利桑那州的家中。
And the recording engineer kept being worried about how animated Mary would get when she talked, that she was moving around too much, making noise.
录音师一直担心玛丽说话时会变得多么活跃，担心她走动太多，发出噪音。
And Mary starts just sort of gently trolling the engineer to me.
玛丽开始温和地对我调侃工程师。
It's so sensitive.
它是如此敏感。
Mary Koss I just got the instructions that I can't touch myself.
玛丽·科斯 我刚刚收到指示，不能碰自己。
[LAUGHTER] And I wasn't planning to do that in any big way, but--
[笑声] 我并没有打算以任何大的方式这样做，但是——
[LAUGHTER] Sound Engineer No, it's OK.
[笑声] 音响工程师 不，没关系。
It's like, every little movement--
就好像，每一个小动作——
Mary is so comfortable talking to people about things most people find difficult to talk about that, back when she published her big findings, back in the 1980s, she was not at all expecting what happened next-- the backlash.
玛丽很自在地与人们谈论大多数人觉得很难谈论的事情，当她在 20 世纪 80 年代发表她的重大发现时，她根本没有预料到接下来会发生什么——强烈反对。
People questioned her.
人们质疑她。
They questioned her terms.
他们质疑她的条件。
They invented new terms.
他们发明了新术语。
Date rape became rape hype.
约会强奸变成了强奸炒作。
This response was a cover story in The New York Times Magazine, "How Rape Hype Betrays Feminism," New York Magazine, "Crying Rape," The Atlantic Monthly, "Feminism's Identity Crisis." Newsweek asked, "Sexual Correctness, Has It Gone Too Far?" Mary Koss says one show booked her to talk about her research and surprised her with Hugh Hefner and Playboy bunnies to debate with her.
这一回应成为《纽约时报》杂志《强奸炒作如何背叛女权主义》、《纽约杂志》《哭泣的强奸》、《大西洋月刊》《女权主义身份危机》的封面故事。 《新闻周刊》问道：“性正确，是否已经太过分了？”玛丽·科斯 (Mary Koss) 说，一个节目安排她谈论自己的研究，并让休·赫夫纳 (Hugh Hefner) 和花花公子兔子与她辩论，这让她感到惊讶。
It's a drumbeat.
这是鼓声。
Everyone was repeating the same things.
每个人都在重复同样的事情。
It's the researcher calling these rape, not the person.
称这些为强奸的是研究人员，而不是人。
They're basically saying, you're making it up.
他们基本上是在说，你在编造。
Exactly.
确切地。
And it just incensed me.
这让我很愤怒。
The reality of my work was being discounted.
我工作的现实被打了折扣。
I was being disbelieved.
我不相信。
I was being blamed as a bad researcher.
我被指责为一个糟糕的研究员。
Did you draw the parallel between what was happening to you and what happens to rape victims?
您是否将发生在您身上的事情与发生在强奸受害者身上的事情进行了比较？
No. I had-- I haven't thought about it that way up until this moment, actually.
不，事实上，直到这一刻我才这么想。
Lots of people were looking at Mary Koss' data and not believing what was right in front of their eyes.
很多人看着玛丽·科斯的数据，并不相信眼前的事情。
But there was a reason for all the backlash.
但所有的强烈反对都是有原因的。
Mary Koss' research was getting attention.
玛丽·科斯的研究引起了人们的关注。
It was catching on.
它很流行。
In the years following her studies, there was a real cultural shift.
在她学习后的几年里，文化发生了真正的转变。
The term date rape became ubiquitous.
约会强奸这个词变得无处不在。
College campuses launched education programs on sexual assault.
大学校园推出了有关性侵犯的教育计划。
Students organized Take Back the Night events.
学生们组织了“夺回夜晚”活动。
Rape prevention programs started up.
强奸预防计划启动。
Women's shelters were opened.
妇女庇护所开放。
Congress passed the Violence Against Women Act in 1994, a major federal response to rape and domestic abuse.
国会于 1994 年通过了《暴力侵害妇女法》，这是联邦针对强奸和家庭虐待的一项重大举措。
Mary Koss testified before Congress.
玛丽·科斯在国会作证。
And today, right now, we all think of rape differently because of Mary Koss.
今天，现在，因为玛丽·科斯，我们对强奸的看法有所不同。
And she watched that shift take place over decades.
她目睹了这种转变在几十年内发生。
And as she did, Mary waited for the numbers to go down.
玛丽一边这样做，一边等待数字下降。
There's now a whole field of research on sexual assault.
现在有一个关于性侵犯的完整研究领域。
And Mary told me a couple of years ago, she thought, I should check in on the latest data.
玛丽几年前告诉我，她想，我应该查看最新数据。
I was not expecting the results, because the rate of reporting to police is identical to what it was 40 years ago.
我没想到会出现这样的结果，因为报警率与 40 年前相同。
Do more women realize they've been raped today?
今天是否有更多女性意识到自己被强奸了？
Well, you would certainly think so, wouldn't you?
嗯，你肯定会这么想，不是吗？
But the answer to that is, no, more women don't.
但答案是，不，更多的女性不这样做。
Oh.
哦。
Mary Koss And I just felt, as a scientist and as a wannabe do-gooder, why weren't we making things better?
玛丽·科斯：我只是觉得，作为一名科学家和一名想成为行善者的人，我们为什么不让事情变得更好呢？
I found this remarkable.
我发现这很了不起。
I first reached out to Mary Koss early in the MeToo movement, in 2018, because at the time, I was interviewing lots of women who were reading the news and reassessing their own experiences, asking themselves, that thing that happened, was that rape?
我第一次联系玛丽·科斯是在 2018 年 MeToo 运动初期，因为当时我采访了很多女性，她们正在阅读新闻并重新评估自己的经历，问自己，发生的那件事是强奸吗？
Assault?
突击？
They told me, I never thought of it that way.
他们告诉我，我从来没有这样想过。
I didn't have a word to describe it.
我无法用言语来形容它。
And I heard this multiple times, I never called it rape, which is literally the title of a book about Mary Koss' work from 1988, I Never Called It Rape, a book that was published 34 years ago.
我听过很多次，我从来没有称其为强奸，这实际上是一本关于 Mary Koss 1988 年作品的书的书名，《我从未称其为强奸》，这本书出版于 34 年前。
Even though Mary Koss helped change the way society as a whole sees rape on this large scale, that didn't change the way individual people saw what happened to them.
尽管玛丽·科斯帮助改变了整个社会对大规模强奸的看法，但这并没有改变个人对发生在自己身上的事情的看法。
The numbers Mary Koss came up with have been replicated multiple times over the years by her, by other researchers.
多年来，玛丽·科斯得出的数字已被她和其他研究人员多次重复。
Sometimes it's one in four, sometimes one in five.
有时是四分之一，有时是五分之一。
Mary spent most of her career hoping that if we change the way victims understood rape, there would be less rape.
玛丽职业生涯的大部分时间都希望，如果我们改变受害者理解强奸的方式，强奸就会减少。
But lately, her focus has changed.
但最近，她的关注点发生了变化。
Mary now believes we will not see any change until perpetrators understand what they are doing as rape.
玛丽现在相信，除非肇事者明白他们的行为是强奸，否则我们不会看到任何改变。
But getting perpetrators to identify their behavior, that's so much harder.
但让肇事者识别他们的行为却要困难得多。
Mary says, you can see in surveys, even in person one-on-one, men will say--
玛丽说，你可以在调查中看到，即使是面对面的一对一，男人也会说——
I don't know why I'm here.
我不知道我为什么在这里。
I've been accused of raping somebody.
我被指控强奸某人。
I have no idea why.
我不知道为什么。
You can open the Arizona statutes.
您可以打开亚利桑那州法规。
You can point them to the Chapter 14 offenses, which are sexual assault.
您可以向他们指出第 14 章中的罪行，即性侵犯。
You can underline the one that talks about taking advantage of someone when they're incapacitated from alcohol and unable to consent or stop what's happening.
你可以在谈论当某人因酗酒而丧失行为能力并且无法同意或阻止正在发生的事情时利用某人的内容下划线。
And their face just goes white, because they had no idea.
他们的脸色变得苍白，因为他们不知道。
But now, you're showing them a law book that says that they raped somebody.
但现在，你给他们看一本法律书，上面说他们强奸了某人。
They could take a polygraph test, and they could pass it because they honestly don't believe that what they did was wrong.
他们可以接受测谎仪测试，并且可以通过，因为他们真的不相信自己所做的事情是错误的。
How is it possible that we cannot know things for so long?
我们怎么可能这么长时间都无法了解事物呢？
The very first question I asked Mary Koss, what is she famous for, Mary didn't care for that question, which is fair.
我问玛丽·科斯的第一个问题是，她以什么闻名，玛丽并不关心这个问题，这是公平的。
It's not a great question.
这不是一个好问题。
But I think I get now why this was an especially tedious one for her.
但我想我现在明白为什么这对她来说是一件特别乏味的事情。
Mary Koss is known for discovering something decades ago that we still don't know.
玛丽·科斯 (Mary Koss) 因在几十年前发现了一些我们仍然不知道的东西而闻名。
She was able to see so much of what was hidden from the rest of us, but this, our ability to not know things, is the one thing she missed.
她能够看到我们其他人隐藏的很多东西，但她错过了我们不知道事物的能力。
Chana Joffe-Walt, she's one of the producers of our show.
Chana Joffe-Walt，她是我们节目的制片人之一。
Coming up, kids going to school in what used to be a big hardware store.
接下来，孩子们将在曾经是一家大型五金店的地方上学。
And there's one subject, when it comes up, the kids cannot face.
还有一个话题，当它出现时，孩子们无法面对。
They only pretend to agree with their teacher.
他们只是假装同意老师的观点。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program, "My Lying Eyes," stories of people staring at the truth, but it's hard to take in for all kinds of reasons.
今天的节目《我的谎言之眼》讲述了人们凝视真相的故事，但由于种种原因很难接受。
We've arrived at Act 2 of our program.
我们已经到了计划的第二幕。
Act 2, How the Other Side Leaves.
第二幕，对方如何离开。
So according to a recent UN estimate, something like 5 and 1/2 million people have already fled Ukraine.
因此，根据联合国最近的一项估计，大约有五又二百万人已经逃离乌克兰。
For a while, a bunch of them were ending up in Tijuana, Mexico, at the border, trying to get into the United States with, of course, people from lots of other countries, who also would like to get into the United States.
有一段时间，他们中的一群人最终来到墨西哥边境的蒂华纳，试图与来自许多其他国家的人一起进入美国，他们也想进入美国。
They're there because they couldn't get visas to fly directly into the United States, and Mexico didn't require a visa.
他们来这里是因为他们无法获得直接飞往美国的签证，而墨西哥也不需要签证。
Anyway, the situation has changed some since the Ukrainians first showed up at the border.
不管怎样，自从乌克兰人第一次出现在边境以来，情况已经发生了一些变化。
But in some important ways, it has not changed at all.
但在某些重要方面，它根本没有改变。
We sent James Spring down there in the second week of April.
我们在四月的第二周派詹姆斯·斯普林去那里。
James has done a bunch of stories for us from the border.
詹姆斯在边境为我们讲述了很多故事。
He's no stranger to the situation down there, and yet he still had a hard time believing what he was seeing.
他对下面的情况并不陌生，但他仍然很难相信自己所看到的。
Here he is.
他在这里。
I've spent a lot of time at migrant shelters in Tijuana, and I've never seen anything like this.
我在蒂华纳的移民庇护所呆了很长时间，但我从未见过这样的事情。
You can tell the difference a block away.
您可以在一个街区之外分辨出差异。
The day I visited, it was all so orderly.
我去的那天，一切都是那么井然有序。
This Ukrainian shelter is housed in a shiny, 4-acre sports complex called the Unidad Deportivo Benito Juarez.
这个乌克兰庇护所坐落在一个占地 4 英亩、名为 Unidad Deportivo Benito Juarez 的闪亮体育中心内。
Security is tight, Mexican cops are posted on the corner, and Americans in lime green safety vests are directing traffic.
安全戒备森严，墨西哥警察驻扎在街角，身穿柠檬绿色安全背心的美国人正在指挥交通。
A packed school bus heads off to deliver a load of Ukrainians to the border crossing.
一辆挤满人的校车出发，将一车乌克兰人送到过境点。
At the front gate, security directs me to a sign-in desk.
在前门，保安引导我到签到台。
There's a big whiteboard with shift schedules.
有一块大白板，上面写着轮班时间表。
Everybody seems to have specific jobs.
每个人似乎都有特定的工作。
There's even a media coordinator.
甚至还有一名媒体协调员。
I'm given a 15-minute slot to be escorted around the shelter with a volunteer.
我有 15 分钟的时间在志愿者的陪同下参观避难所。
He sets a timer on his phone.
他在手机上设置了计时器。
We walk.
我们步行。
Inside the complex, it's clean.
小区内，干净整洁。
And there are tons of American volunteers and just resources-- easy-up stations with cooked food, and information sheets, and people helping to get refugees in line to board the next bus.
这里有大量的美国志愿者和资源——提供熟食和信息表的简易车站，以及帮助难民排队登上下一班车的人。
The Ukrainians don't really want to talk with me, which I get.
我明白，乌克兰人并不是真的想和我说话。
Thank you, though.
不过还是谢谢你。
They've put on some hellish miles here at the end of a hellish month.
在这个地狱般的月底，他们已经在这里行驶了地狱般的里程。
Do you guys speak English?
你们会说英语吗？
James Spring They're mostly slumped in folding chairs or propped up against their wheeled suitcases.
James Spring 他们大多瘫坐在折叠椅上或靠在带轮子的手提箱上。
The person who organized all of this is a tall, young guy who's wearing black jeans, and a white t-shirt, and a cap with an American flag on it.
组织这一切的人是一个身材高大的年轻小伙子，他穿着黑色牛仔裤和白色T恤，戴着一顶印有美国国旗的帽子。
His name is Vlad.
他的名字叫弗拉德。
He's 24.
他24岁了。
He's from Ukraine, but he lives in San Diego where he runs a Christian ministry.
他来自乌克兰，但住在圣地亚哥，负责基督教事工。
I never been in Mexico before.
我以前从未去过墨西哥。
It's my first time.
这是我第一次。
I've been here three weeks already, and my plan was to be here--
我已经来这里三个星期了，我的计划是来这里——
When he arrived, there was no official infrastructure to help the Ukrainians, so Vlad put one together himself.
当他到达时，没有官方基础设施可以帮助乌克兰人，所以弗拉德自己建造了一个。
He was able to tap into a network of other churches in the US that wanted to help, and they made contact with officials in Tijuana.
他能够利用美国其他想要提供帮助的教会网络，并且他们与蒂华纳的官员取得了联系。
The city donated the use of the sports complex and provided some beds.
该市捐赠了体育场馆的使用权并提供了一些床位。
Everything else comes from churches and private donations.
其他一切都来自教堂和私人捐款。
The Mexican government said it's the best what they've seen, ever, like how we're working with refugees.
墨西哥政府表示，这是他们见过的最好的事情，就像我们与难民合作的方式一样。
Because, as you can see, it's clean.
因为，正如你所看到的，它很干净。
We have volunteers here.
我们这里有志愿者。
We have good kitchen here.
我们这里有很好的厨房。
And as you know, they open for us Chaparral Border only for Ukrainian refugees.
如您所知，他们只对乌克兰难民向我们开放丛林边境。
So only Ukrainian can come to this authorized bus and go through the border.
因此，只有乌克兰人可以乘坐这辆授权巴士并通过边境。
And the CBP officer is processing them there.
CBP 官员正在那里处理它们。
The day I was there, Vlad said there'd be between 500 and 800 refugees moving through this shelter.
我在那里的那天，弗拉德说会有 500 到 800 名难民穿过这个避难所。
They have a whole system.
他们有一个完整的系统。
Each Ukrainian refugee is assigned a number.
每个乌克兰难民都被分配了一个号码。
They scan a QR code for an app that tracks their place in line, and their progress is logged by volunteers at every stop along their final journey to the US.
他们扫描二维码，找到一个可跟踪他们排队位置的应用程序，志愿者在前往美国的最后一站的每一站都会记录他们的进度。
It's like if a factory and a military operation had a baby.
这就像工厂和军事行动生了一个孩子一样。
Normally, it had been taking a day and a half to process the Ukrainians through the shelter and into the US.
通常情况下，乌克兰人通过避难所进入美国需要一天半的时间。
But on this day, it's only taking about eight hours total-- eight hours.
但这一天，总共只需要大约八个小时——八个小时。
It strikes me hard that there are some migrants not very far away from where we're standing who've been waiting-- let's just say longer-- for their shot at being able to step onto American soil.
让我深感震惊的是，距离我们站的地方不远的一些移民一直在等待——我们可以说更长时间——有机会踏上美国的土地。
The next day, I went to a different migrant shelter not far away, Agape Mision Mundial.
第二天，我去了不远处的另一个移民收容所，Agape Mision Mundial。
It's also a church-based shelter in Tijuana.
它也是蒂华纳的一个教堂庇护所。
It has about the same number of people as the Ukrainian one, but these are migrants mainly from Central America and Mexico, a few from Haiti.
它的人口数量与乌克兰人口大致相同，但这些移民主要来自中美洲和墨西哥，还有一些来自海地。
I wanted to visit Agape to see what they knew about what was happening at the sports complex with the Ukrainians, if they had any thoughts or feelings about it.
我想去拜访 Agape，看看他们对乌克兰人在体育中心发生的事情了解多少，是否有任何想法或感受。
Agape is up a dirt road.
Agape 走在一条土路上。
It's right between a junkyard and a cemetery.
它就在垃圾场和墓地之间。
And it's not very big, maybe the size of like two Olive Garden restaurants.
而且它不是很大，大概有两家橄榄园餐厅那么大。
And I'll just come out and say it.
我就站出来说出来。
The place has a very different vibe than the Ukrainian compound.
这个地方的氛围与乌克兰大院截然不同。
Gracias.
谢谢。
A young Mexican girl opens the gate to let me in.
一个年轻的墨西哥女孩打开门让我进去。
It's all pretty loosey goosey.
这一切都非常松散。
And it's dense with people, like the same number of people as at the Ukrainian shelter, but in a much smaller space.
这里挤满了人，与乌克兰避难所的人数相同，但空间要小得多。
I ask if I can speak with somebody in charge, and I'm directed to a Honduran migrant named Antonio.
我问是否可以与负责人交谈，我被引导去见一位名叫安东尼奥的洪都拉斯移民。
I ask him if I need to sign in or anything.
我问他是否需要登录或其他什么。
Nope.
没有。
I ask him, do you have security here?
我问他，你们这里有保安吗？
He says, yes, me and the pastor.
他说，是的，我和牧师。
And sometimes, there's a guy named Ulises, another migrant.
有时，还有一个叫尤利塞斯的人，他是另一位移民。
Antonio goes to fetch the pastor for me.
安东尼奥去帮我去接牧师。
People crowd a narrow corridor that leads past a bunch of open doorways to some rooms that just, like-- look, the entire place is just rough.
人们挤在一条狭窄的走廊里，穿过一堆敞开的门，来到一些房间，看起来，整个地方都很粗糙。
Beyond the rooms, there are a lot of tents in the yard.
除了房间之外，院子里还有很多帐篷。
It's lunchtime, and there are people cooking stuff all over the place-- gas camping stoves inside rooms.
现在是午餐时间，到处都有人在做饭——房间里有野营煤气炉。
And out in the yard, there are open wood fires underneath a plastic tarp roof.
院子里的塑料防水布屋顶下生着明火。
They cook their own food, and they have-- well, not refrigerators, just--
他们自己做饭，而且他们有——好吧，没有冰箱，只是——
Pastor Albert is from Puerto Rico.
艾伯特牧师来自波多黎各。
25 years ago, he started Agape as a church and rehab center, but he turned it into a shelter.
25 年前，他创办了 Agape 作为教堂和康复中心，但后来他把它变成了庇护所。
Agape is not supported by a network of churches.
Agape 不受教会网络的支持。
The government donates some food every month.
政府每个月都会捐赠一些食物。
But other than that, donations are pretty rare.
但除此之外，捐款非常罕见。
The migrants have to mostly buy everything that they need for themselves.
移民大部分需要自己购买一切。
Some have jobs.
有些人有工作。
Some get money from relatives in the states.
有些人从美国的亲戚那里得到钱。
People don't move out of the shelter very quickly.
人们不会很快离开避难所。
In the last month, only one person from Agape, a migrant named Danny, was legally processed into the US after staying there for most of a year.
上个月，只有一名来自 Agape 的移民丹尼 (Danny) 在美国呆了大半年之后，获得合法入境美国的许可。
I asked Pastor Albert if he's been to the Ukrainian shelter.
我问艾伯特牧师是否去过乌克兰避难所。
Turns out that he has.
事实证明他有。
He volunteered there.
他在那里做志愿者。
He knows all about it and how the Ukrainians were being processed into the United States in just a few days.
他知道这一切，也知道乌克兰人如何在短短几天内被处理到美国。
I tell him that the previous day, the processing time was only eight hours.
我告诉他，前一天，处理时间只有八个小时。
Well, basically, it looks all over like discrimination.
嗯，基本上，这看起来像是歧视。
Discrimination.
歧视。
Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% for the United States to allow the Ukrainians to enter.
别误会我的意思，我100%支持美国允许乌克兰人入境。
I know they've been through a lot.
我知道他们经历了很多。
I know they have suffered a lot.
我知道他们受了很多苦。
And I know that they're saying, OK, they're entering as refugees, because they're suffering a war.
我知道他们会说，好吧，他们是以难民身份入境的，因为他们正在遭受战争之苦。
Now, what I don't understand is, well, when organized crime and drug cartel declare a war on civilians, declares war on that city and says, every 13-year-old has to be part of our cartel, and they're going to go on the front lines to shoot and fight against the other cartel, if you don't agree to it, you got three days to leave the city.
现在，我不明白的是，好吧，当有组织犯罪和贩毒集团向平民宣战，向那个城市宣战，并说，每个13岁的孩子都必须成为我们贩毒集团的一员，他们将走上前线，与其他贩毒集团开枪射击，如果你不同意，你有三天时间离开这座城市。
I have immigrants here that that's what they're going through.
我这里有移民，这就是他们正在经历的事情。
But the UN, United States, don't consider that as war against civilians.
但联合国、美国并不认为这是针对平民的战争。
It only applies if it's one government against another government in war for you to enter as a refugee.
它仅适用于当一个政府与另一个政府处于战争状态时您才能以难民身份入境的情况。
That doesn't make sense.
这没有道理。
The US government sees the Ukrainian refugees through a different lens than they do the Latin American migrants.
美国政府看待乌克兰难民的视角与看待拉丁美洲移民的视角不同。
The people at the border from Central America and Mexico are mostly seeking asylum with a pathway to citizenship, a way to live permanently in the United States.
中美洲和墨西哥边境的人们大多寻求庇护，以获得公民身份，这是在美国永久居住的一种方式。
The Ukrainians, though, they just need a place to wait out the war.
然而，乌克兰人只是需要一个地方来等待战争结束。
They're being accepted into the US through a process called humanitarian parole, which allows them to stay for up to 12 months.
他们通过一个名为“人道主义假释”的程序被美国接纳，允许他们在美国停留最多 12 个月。
For over two years, US officials closed the border to nearly all immigration because of COVID, but then they found a way around it for the Ukrainians.
两年多来，由于新冠疫情，美国官员对几乎所有移民关闭了边境，但后来他们为乌克兰人找到了绕过的办法。
As Pastor Albert summarizes it, I guess white people aren't contagious.
正如阿尔伯特牧师总结的那样，我猜白人不会传染。
I'd really been hoping to bring Pastor Albert along with me back to the Ukrainians' compound to get his first impressions.
我真的很希望能带艾伯特牧师跟我一起回到乌克兰人的大院，看看他的第一印象。
But since he'd already seen it and is too busy anyway, he suggests that I take one of the migrants instead, see what they think of it.
但既然他已经看过了，而且也太忙了，他建议我带一名移民来，看看他们对此有何看法。
He introduces me to a young woman, named Mayra, from Michoacán in Mexico.
他向我介绍了一位年轻女子，名叫梅拉，来自墨西哥米却肯州。
While she's waiting to request asylum in the US, she teaches school to kids in the shelter.
当她在美国等待申请庇护时，她给避难所的孩子们上课。
She seems enthusiastic about the idea of seeing the Ukrainian shelter.
她似乎对参观乌克兰避难所的想法很感兴趣。
She says to the pastor--
她对牧师说——
[SPEAKING SPANISH] James Spring "So go with him?"
[说西班牙语] James Spring“那么和他一起去吗？”
James Spring I'll get my jacket, she says.
詹姆斯·斯普林 我去拿我的夹克，她说。
Mayra arranges to leave her son with a relative and is back in a minute flat with a coat and a backpack.
梅拉安排把儿子留给一位亲戚，然后带着外套和背包很快就回来了。
I ask her about the Ukrainians and what she's heard about their shelter.
我向她询问乌克兰人的情况以及她对他们的庇护所的了解。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] James Spring Not much, she says.
[说西班牙语] 詹姆斯·斯普林 没什么，她说。
I hear they get a lot of support, but really not much more than that.
我听说他们得到了很多支持，但实际上仅此而已。
I'd like to see it.
我想看看。
She seems genuinely curious.
她看起来真的很好奇。
OK, I say.
好吧，我说。
James Spring We drive.
詹姆斯·斯普林 我们开车。
Mayra says that she's been at the Agape shelter for seven months.
梅拉说她已经在 Agape 收容所呆了七个月了。
She's really invested in the kids she's teaching, wants to instill good values in them.
她真的对她所教的孩子们进行了投资，希望向他们灌输良好的价值观。
She starts her classes really early, at 7:00 AM.
她很早就开始上课，早上 7:00。
Are you serious, I say?
我说你是认真的吗？
She thinks it's good for them.
她认为这对他们有好处。
I like to be very punctual, she says.
“我喜欢非常准时，”她说。
I tell my students, as a teacher, I have to set an example for you.
我告诉我的学生，作为一名老师，我要为你们树立榜样。
If I want you to get up early, then I have to get up early myself.
如果我想让你早起，那么我自己也必须早起。
The saying goes, God helps those who rise early.
俗话说，天佑早起者。
"We have to be optimists." Her optimism seems particularly profound, given everything that's happened to her.
“我们必须是乐观主义者。”考虑到发生在她身上的一切，她的乐观情绪似乎特别深刻。
She was a schoolteacher back in Michoacán, too, but her family also owned avocado farms and avocado packing facilities.
她也是米却肯州的一名教师，但她的家族还拥有鳄梨农场和鳄梨包装设施。
When the cartels arrived and started to demand more and more protection money, Mayra's family couldn't afford it.
当贩毒集团到来并开始索要越来越多的保护费时，梅拉的家人却无力承担。
Three of her uncles were kidnapped, never to be seen again.
她的三个叔叔被绑架，再也没有见过。
The cartel had made it clear that the next time they came, if her family didn't pay up, they'd kill everyone.
贩毒集团明确表示，下次他们来的时候，如果她的家人不付钱，他们就会杀掉所有人。
So she and two dozen of her relatives-- cousins, kids, aunts-- all fled here together to Tijuana.
因此，她和她的两打亲戚——表兄弟姐妹、孩子、阿姨——都一起逃到了蒂华纳。
The cartel continues to send threats, audio messages on WhatsApp.
该卡特尔继续在 WhatsApp 上发送威胁和音频消息。
Mayra plays a couple of them for me.
梅拉为我演奏了其中几首。
One of them says, we know where you are now in Tijuana.
其中一人说，我们知道你现在在蒂华纳的什么地方。
We're going to fuck up your whole family if you don't cooperate.
如果你不合作，我们就会毁了你全家。
It's 11 minutes to the other shelter.
距离另一个避难所还有 11 分钟路程。
We drive along the border wall to get there.
我们沿着边境墙开车到达那里。
Here's the entrance, I say.
我说，这是入口。
James Spring [SPEAKING SPANISH]
詹姆斯·斯普林 [西班牙语]
What do you think?
你觉得怎么样？
Mayra [SPEAKING SPANISH]
梅拉 [西班牙语]
James Spring Really nice, actually, she says.
詹姆斯·斯普林（James Spring）实际上真的很好，她说。
Really nice.
真的很好。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] James Spring "Seriously, I don't believe it.
[说西班牙语] James Spring “说实话，我不相信。
Can they send me here?"
他们可以派我来这里吗？”
[SPEAKING SPANISH] How's your Ukrainian, I say?
[说西班牙语] 我说你的乌克兰语怎么样？
Well, she says, I'm not that dark skinned, like maybe she could blend in.
好吧，她说，我皮肤没那么黑，也许她可以融入其中。
It's a joke.
这是一个笑话。
And the sports complex, she says, do they use it just for them?
她说，体育馆只是他们自己用的吗？
Or is it like-- and then she just says, I can't believe it.
或者是——然后她就说，我简直不敢相信。
Our assigned press escort appears.
我们指定的记者护送出现。
She's a Ukrainian-American volunteer from a church in California.
她是一名来自加利福尼亚州教堂的乌克兰裔美国志愿者。
She seems smart and capable.
她看上去很聪明，也很能干。
It's the same deal as yesterday-- 15 minutes for the tour.
和昨天一样——游览时间为 15 分钟。
Yeah.
是的。
So they have a kid's center.
所以他们有一个儿童中心。
For little kids inside, they have little toys, and Legos, and stuff like that.
对于里面的小孩子来说，他们有小玩具、乐高积木之类的东西。
There's a coloring station for the older kids.
有一个适合年龄较大的孩子的着色站。
And then there's--
然后还有——
The woman points out this little area for the Ukrainians' dogs with some kennels.
这位女士指着这个小地方给乌克兰人的狗看，还有一些狗舍。
I translate what she's saying to Mayra, who's pretty wide-eyed now.
我把她说的话翻译给梅拉，她现在睁大了眼睛。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Ira Glass Oh, that too, she says.
[说西班牙语] Ira Glass 哦，那也是，她说。
Cool, as if to say, how nice for them.
很酷，好像在说，对他们来说真是太好了。
Mayra asks, where'd all the supplies come from?
梅拉问，所有的物资都是从哪里来的？
Donations, the guide says.
导游说，捐款。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] James Spring And everything over here, those are all donations, she asks?
[西班牙语] 詹姆斯·斯普林（James Spring） 这里的所有东西，都是捐款，她问？
Yes.
是的。
So this is all donations.
所以这就是所有的捐款。
If anybody needs any clothes, there's shoes, I think.
我想，如果有人需要衣服，那就有鞋子。
There's toys behind.
后面还有玩具。
There's strollers for kids, car seats, anything that's needed.
这里有儿童推车、汽车座椅，以及任何需要的东西。
All of these things might come in really handy for people who are staying in a place for a long time.
所有这些东西对于长期居住在一个地方的人来说可能会非常方便。
But of course, that's not the case with the people coming through this shelter.
但当然，通过这个避难所的人的情况并非如此。
I ask how much time it's taking today for the Ukrainian refugees to be processed into the US.
我问今天乌克兰难民需要多长时间才能进入美国。
It's been pretty quick.
速度非常快。
If they come in in the morning, they're usually gone by nighttime.
如果他们早上进来，通常会在晚上离开。
But there's been times where it takes at least 24 hours.
但有时至少需要 24 小时。
So right now, people are not even really having to sleep in here, because they're moving so quickly.
所以现在，人们甚至不需要睡在这里，因为他们移动得很快。
Right.
正确的。
Because you don't know.
因为你不知道。
Your number can get called at any time.
随时可以拨打您的电话号码。
So you can go to sleep.
这样你就可以去睡觉了。
We've had people that their number got called, and they look at the board, and they're like, oh, my number, I missed it.
有些人的号码被叫到了，他们看着黑板，然后说，哦，我的号码，我错过了。
Then they have to catch the next bus.
然后他们必须赶下一趟公共汽车。
It's OK if they miss it, but somebody else gets filled into their spot.
如果他们错过了也没关系，但其他人会填补他们的位置。
I translate this to Mayra.
我将其翻译为 Mayra。
Mayra [SPEAKING SPANISH]
梅拉 [西班牙语]
Oh, well, she says, what can I say?
哦，好吧，她说，我能说什么？
I guess we'll talk, she says.
我想我们会谈谈，她说。
The fact that the Ukrainians are getting processed so quickly and under humanitarian parole, that's tough for her.
乌克兰人如此迅速地得到处理并获得人道主义假释，这对她来说很困难。
She tried to get her dad into the US under humanitarian parole.
她试图让她的父亲以人道主义假释的身份进入美国。
He had severe diabetes.
他患有严重的糖尿病。
His leg had been amputated.
他的腿被截肢了。
It was getting worse, and no medical interventions in Mexico were helping.
情况越来越糟，墨西哥的医疗干预措施也没有起到帮助作用。
The humanitarian parole claim was denied.
人道主义假释申请被拒绝。
Mayra's father died in the Agape shelter in November.
Mayra 的父亲于 11 月在 Agape 收容所去世。
Thank you, so much.
太感谢了。
I really appreciate your time today.
我非常感谢您今天的宝贵时间。
No problem.
没问题。
James Spring Mayra and I walked toward the exit, past the chafing dishes of food, past the cases of bottled water, past the walls of clothing and blankets sealed in clear plastic bags, past the smiling American guards at the front gate.
詹姆斯·斯普林·梅拉和我朝出口走去，经过一盘盘热腾腾的食物，经过一箱箱瓶装水，经过一排排用透明塑料袋密封的衣服和毯子，经过前门微笑的美国警卫。
Thank you, guys.
谢谢你们，伙计们。
Security Guard Yes, sir.
保安 是的，先生。
Appreciate it.
欣赏它。
Outside, I point out that the Mexican cops are still posted at the corner, keeping watch.
在外面，我指出墨西哥警察仍然驻守在拐角处，进行监视。
What?
什么？
Really, she says?
她说，真的吗？
They get that, too?
他们也明白吗？
And people shoot at us from outside the shelter, actual gunfire, and the police are almost never around.
人们从避难所外面向我们开枪，真正的枪声，而警察几乎不在身边。
How sad.
多么悲伤啊。
She's not exaggerating.
她并不夸张。
In September, a gun battle outside Agape sent a hail of bullets into the shelter, into a room where children were staying.
九月，阿加普外的一场枪战将弹雨射入避难所，射入孩子们居住的房间。
In December, there were published news reports of armed men threatening shelter migrants.
12 月，有新闻报道称武装人员威胁庇护所移民。
Mayra says, the way that woman said that they have families waiting for them in the US, well, we do, too.
梅拉说，就像那位女士说的那样，他们在美国有家人在等着他们，好吧，我们也是如此。
We also have family waiting for us over there, and it's the same.
我们也有家人在那里等着我们，也是一样的。
They had to leave their country, we also had to leave or, really, we're forced to leave.
他们必须离开他们的国家，我们也必须离开，或者说，我们被迫离开。
It's sad, she says.
她说，这很悲伤。
Honestly, it's sad.
老实说，很难过。
And it makes me really angry to see it.
看到它我真的很生气。
I'm seeing the comparison.
我正在看对比
They have chairs, beds, when there are people in our shelter who've been living there for months, sleeping on the ground.
他们有椅子、床，而我们的避难所里的人已经在那里住了几个月，睡在地上。
I sleep in a little bunk.
我睡在一个小铺位上。
I don't even have a mattress.
我连床垫都没有。
It's just the bare wood.
这只是光秃秃的木头。
There are people who've been there 10 months, just waiting for a reply from the government.
有些人已经在那里呆了10个月了，只是在等待政府的答复。
And they don't have the resources.
而且他们没有资源。
They don't have them.
他们没有。
I've seen so few people, so, so few bringing even a single donation to the shelter.
我见过的人很少，很少有人给避难所带来哪怕是一丁点的捐款。
Or, for example, these kids have so many supplies-- Crayons, notebooks, Play-Doh, these learning materials.
或者，例如，这些孩子有很多用品——蜡笔、笔记本、培乐多、这些学习材料。
And our kids, who are here for months, don't have these supplies.
而我们的孩子们已经在这里待了几个月，却没有这些用品。
And those who are only here for eight hours, they have everything here, everything, everything, all the comforts.
而那些只在这里待八个小时的人，他们在这里拥有一切，一切，一切，所有的舒适。
They even have the internet.
他们甚至还有互联网。
They bring them cooked food.
他们给他们带来煮熟的食物。
They have everything.
他们拥有一切。
The truth is, they don't need it.
事实是，他们不需要它。
Honestly here, I see how literally they don't even open the things they bring them.
老实说，我看到他们甚至不打开他们带来的东西。
I think they don't even open it.
我认为他们甚至没有打开它。
They don't need it.
他们不需要它。
They're people who simply pass through, and they give them everything.
他们只是路过的人，却给了他们一切。
Why?
为什么？
It made me want to cry, she says.
她说，这让我想哭。
Maybe I'll find me a Ukrainian man and say, let's go.
也许我会找到一个乌克兰男人并说，我们走吧。
Then she says, ah, but everyone comes with their family anyway.
然后她说，啊，但无论如何每个人都带着家人来。
No. No, I tell her.
不，不，我告诉她。
A lot of them are single.
他们中的很多人都是单身。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] James Spring Well, then why didn't you introduce me to one, she says?
[说西班牙语] James Spring 好吧，那你为什么不向我介绍一位，她说？
It'd be like my pass, my ticket in.
这就像我的通行证，我的门票。
Let's leave before I start to cry, she says, [LAUGHS], before I get angry.
在我开始哭泣之前，我们走吧，她说，[笑]，在我生气之前。
It's not that Mayra doesn't understand what the Ukrainians are going through.
梅拉并不是不了解乌克兰人正在经历什么。
She does.
她做到了。
It's just that now she's seen that the whole world came together so quickly, and so efficiently, so willingly, to try to help, and they haven't done that for her and for so many others like her.
只是现在她看到整个世界如此迅速、如此高效、如此自愿地团结在一起，试图提供帮助，但他们还没有为她和许多像她一样的人这样做。
She wishes that people wanted to, because, clearly, they can do a lot when they want to.
她希望人们愿意这样做，因为很明显，当他们愿意的时候，他们可以做很多事情。
James Spring.
詹姆斯·斯普林.
Since James was in Tijuana the second week of April, the situation has changed for Ukrainians there.
自从詹姆斯四月第二周到达蒂华纳以来，那里的乌克兰人的情况发生了变化。
The United States announced that they will no longer be processing Ukrainians at that border, so the shelter that James visited, it's closed.
美国宣布他们将不再在该边境处理乌克兰人，因此詹姆斯访问过的避难所已关闭。
In the place of all that, the Biden administration has introduced an even faster, easier process for Ukrainians to enter the United States.
取而代之的是，拜登政府为乌克兰人进入美国引入了更快、更简单的流程。
It's called Uniting for Ukraine.
它被称为“团结乌克兰”。
Refugees from Ukraine can now get a visa to fly directly into the United States.
来自乌克兰的难民现在可以获得直接飞往美国的签证。
When the shelter for Ukrainians closed in Tijuana, leftover donations and supplies were given away to other migrant shelters and churches in the area.
当蒂华纳的乌克兰人庇护所关闭时，剩余的捐款和用品被捐赠给该地区的其他移民庇护所和教堂。
Act 3, We Did Start the Fire.
第三幕，我们确实放火了。
So this last story is about some kids and a lesson in school, a lesson that their teacher was having some real difficulty getting across, even though it was connected to something that the kids had witnessed with their own eyes.
最后一个故事是关于一些孩子和学校里的一堂课，他们的老师在理解这一课时确实遇到了一些困难，尽管它与孩子们亲眼目睹的事情有关。
Katie Worth first reported this story for the PBS series, Frontline, and The GroundTruth Project.
凯蒂·沃思 (Katie Worth) 首先为 PBS 系列节目《前线》和《地面真相项目》报道了这个故事。
She got to know these kids and explains.
她认识了这些孩子并进行了解释。
I'd like to introduce you to a seventh grader named Kyson Wilson.
我想向您介绍一位名叫凯森·威尔逊的七年级学生。
Normally, I'd describe him for you, but I'll let him do it.
通常情况下，我会为你描述他，但我会让他这么做。
I look like a little kid, super small.
我看起来像个小孩子，超级小。
Don't look like I've grown up that much at all.
别看我一点也没有长大。
I'm still like a little baby, I think, to myself.
我想，对自己来说，我仍然像个小婴儿。
I hate my voice, how it sounds.
我讨厌我的声音，不管它听起来如何。
And then everybody is so much taller than me, so it makes me feel small.
然后每个人都比我高很多，所以这让我感觉自己很渺小。
Yeah, I think it'll change soon, and I can't wait.
是的，我想很快就会改变，我已经等不及了。
Kyson's favorite subjects are science and math.
凯森最喜欢的科目是科学和数学。
Yes, we did.
是的，我们做到了。
Katie Worth How did you do?
凯蒂·沃思 你过得怎么样？
I got every single question right.
我每一个问题都答对了。
I'm the only one that did, I think.
我想，我是唯一这样做的人。
The school Kyson goes to is not his normal school, not anyone's normal school, in fact.
事实上，凯森就读的学校不是他的普通学校，也不是任何人的普通学校。
Let me explain how he got here.
让我解释一下他是如何来到这里的。
On the morning of November 8, 2018, Kyson and his mom, Kelsey Wilson, were at home in the Sierra Foothills of Northern California, getting ready to start their day.
2018 年 11 月 8 日早上，凯森和他的妈妈凯尔西·威尔逊 (Kelsey Wilson) 正在北加州塞拉山麓的家中，准备开始新的一天。
But then Kelsey's husband, who'd already left for work, texted a photo of a fire.
但随后凯尔西的丈夫已经去上班了，他发了一张火灾照片的短信。
It was moving their direction, fast.
它正快速地朝他们的方向移动。
They needed to evacuate, which Kyson was not happy about.
他们需要撤离，凯森对此并不满意。
So I was asking her, mom, take me to school.
所以我问她，妈妈，送我去学校吧。
I need to keep my perfect attendance.
我需要保持全勤。
And I was like, you know what?
我当时想，你知道吗？
I'm really sorry about ruining your perfect attendance.
我真的很抱歉破坏了你的完美出勤。
I don't think it's a good idea to take you over there.
我不认为带你去那里是个好主意。
This is Kelsey.
这是凯尔西。
Kelsey Wilson And then we started packing.
凯尔西·威尔逊 然后我们开始收拾行李。
So we packed a lot of stuff.
所以我们打包了很多东西。
And when we left, it was pitch black.
当我们离开时，天已经黑了。
Pitch black, because smoke had blotted out the sun.
一片漆黑，因为烟雾遮住了阳光。
That morning, the most destructive fire in California history, the Camp Fire, had caught near their home in Paradise, California.
那天早上，加州历史上最具破坏性的火灾——营火，在他们位于加州天堂市的家附近发生。
The whole city evacuated down the same few roads out of the hills, so they were stuck in traffic, which was terrifying.
整个城市都沿着山上的那几条路疏散，所以交通堵塞，这很可怕。
At one point, both sides of the road they were edging down were in flames.
有一次，他们所走的路两边都着火了。
Kelsey lost contact with her husband, who was taking a different road out of town.
凯尔西与她的丈夫失去了联系，当时她的丈夫正走另一条路出城。
For a few frightening hours, they wondered if he was dead.
在可怕的几个小时里，他们都怀疑他是否已经死了。
Their house, like nearly every building in Paradise, burned down.
他们的房子，就像天堂里几乎所有的建筑一样，被烧毁了。
Like a lot of other folks, Kyson and his family resettled in the city at the bottom of the hill, Chico, six people crammed into a 29-foot trailer.
和许多其他人一样，凯森和他的家人在山脚下的城市奇科重新定居，六个人挤在一辆 29 英尺长的拖车里。
The middle school that got set up for the Paradise kids was not a school at all.
为天堂孩子们设立的中学根本不是学校。
It was a big-box hardware store that had gone out of business.
那是一家已经倒闭的大型五金店。
Kyson gave me a little tour.
凯森带我参观了一下。
Where do you eat lunch?
你在哪里吃午饭？
Kyson Wilson We eat lunch at the cash registers.
凯森·威尔逊（Kyson Wilson）：我们在收银台吃午餐。
PE was now in the garden center.
PE现在在花园中心。
The library, Aisle 16, housewares.
图书馆，16 号过道，家居用品。
Principal's office, electrical.
校长办公室，电气。
And the classrooms--
还有教室——
So the classrooms used to be super small aisles, like, if you went to Walmart, just regular aisles.
所以教室过去都是非常小的过道，就像你去沃尔玛一样，只是普通的过道。
And our desks used to be shelves.
我们的桌子曾经是架子。
Kyson says his teachers tried lecturing from one end of the aisle, or the other, or somewhere in the middle.
凯森说，他的老师们尝试从过道的一端、另一端或中间的某个地方授课。
It didn't really work.
它并没有真正起作用。
The teachers did not like going down these small, skinny aisles.
老师们不喜欢走这些又小又窄的过道。
So the school eventually took down some of the aisle dividers to make double-wide aisles, added desks and whiteboards, which helped them feel a little more like real classrooms.
因此，学校最终拆除了一些过道隔板，打造了双倍宽的过道，添加了书桌和白板，这让学校感觉更像真正的教室。
But it's loud in a way no real school would ever be.
但它的喧闹程度是任何真正的学校都不会达到的。
The noise of all these kids bounces off the metal roof and back down.
所有这些孩子的噪音从金属屋顶上反射回来。
It's also cold-- 59 degrees.
天气也很冷——59度。
Everyone's in coats.
每个人都穿着外套。
They'd been heating the store with propane.
他们一直用丙烷给商店供暖。
But one day, someone smelled gas.
但有一天，有人闻到了煤气味。
The fire department showed up, and lots of the kids freaked out.
消防队赶到了，很多孩子都吓坏了。
Some went catatonic, others called their parents to pick them up.
有些人精神紧张，另一些人打电话给父母来接他们。
The smell brought them back to the day they'd evacuated Paradise and hearing the sound of propane gas tanks exploding one after another as they fled.
这股气味让他们回想起他们撤离天堂的那天，他们逃离时听到丙烷气罐一个接一个爆炸的声音。
After that, the administration just left the heat off.
此后，政府就停止了热度。
As it happened, I'd actually shopped in this hardware store before it became a school.
碰巧的是，在这家五金店成为学校之前，我实际上曾在这里购物过。
I'm from Chico.
我来自奇科。
The day of the fire, my aunt had to evacuate.
火灾当天，姑妈不得不撤离。
And I'm also a climate reporter.
我也是一名气候记者。
For the last year, I'd been reporting on what kids are taught about climate change in school.
去年，我一直在报道孩子们在学校学到的有关气候变化的知识。
When I found out there was a group of kids who could arguably be called climate refugees set up in a hardware store in my hometown and about to learn about global warming in science class, I had to come home and check it out.
当我发现我家乡的一家五金店里有一群可以被称为气候难民的孩子，准备在科学课上了解全球变暖时，我不得不回家看看。
We're learning carbon cycle this week, which was pretty interesting.
这周我们正在学习碳循环，这非常有趣。
Again, here's Kyson.
再说一次，这是凯森。
Kyson Wilson The carbon is going up and up, and it's getting warmer and warmer.
凯森·威尔逊（Kyson Wilson） 碳越来越高，而且越来越热。
And everybody is just using too much carbon in the world.
世界上每个人都消耗了太多的碳。
There's strong science connecting climate change to the fire these kids survived, but I wondered if they would see it that way.
有强有力的科学证据将气候变化与这些孩子们幸存的火灾联系起来，但我想知道他们是否会这么看。
Paradise is pretty red.
天堂很红。
Only about half the people in our county think global warming is real, that humans are causing climate change.
我们县只有大约一半的人认为全球变暖是真实的，人类正在造成气候变化。
So I wanted to see how that would play out in this classroom.
所以我想看看这在这间教室里会发生什么。
All right, ladies and gentlemen.
好的，女士们先生们。
Thank you, for coming in and getting yourself ready.
谢谢你进来并做好准备。
I really appreciate that.
我真的很感激。
This is Marc Kessler, the science teacher.
这是马克·凯斯勒，科学老师。
Kessler has a gentle affect one would expect of a flower farmer, which is what he was before he became a science teacher.
凯斯勒有着一种人们所期望的花农的温和气质，这正是他在成为一名科学老师之前的样子。
He's been worried about climate change since the '90s, was one of the first to put solar panels on his roof.
自 90 年代以来，他一直担心气候变化，是最早在屋顶上安装太阳能电池板的人之一。
Around school, he was known as Mr. Tesla.
在学校期间，他被称为特斯拉先生。
Kessler's approach to teaching climate is really hands-on.
凯斯勒教授气候的方法确实是实践性的。
One morning, I watched him do a lesson where he had each student pick three spots anywhere on the globe and look up how the average temperatures in those places had changed over the decades.
一天早上，我看到他上了一堂课，他让每个学生在地球上的任何地方挑选三个地点，看看这些地方的平均气温在过去几十年里是如何变化的。
You can go anywhere in the world you want.
你可以去世界上任何你想去的地方。
And then you're going to list whether they're increasing, decreasing, or staying the same.
然后你要列出它们是增加、减少还是保持不变。
The kids eventually realized that the temperatures in most places have been going up.
孩子们最终意识到大多数地方的气温都在上升。
So what's one possible consequence of temperatures going up?
那么气温上升可能产生的后果是什么？
Well, wildfires.
嗯，野火。
This is area in an average year burned by wildfire.
这是平均每年被野火烧毁的面积。
They're thinking that it could go way up.
他们认为它可能会大幅上涨。
That is so not OK.
那是不太好的。
Marc Kessler Yeah, which is not great.
马克·凯斯勒：是的，这不太好。
Yeah, because that hasn't happened to us already, jokes one of his students.
是的，因为我们还没有发生过这种事，他的一位学生开玩笑说。
To some of the kids, the connection between climate and the Camp Fire seemed clear.
对于一些孩子来说，气候和营火之间的联系似乎很明显。
It was like Kessler was gently guiding them to a better understanding of what they had all just lived through.
凯斯勒就像在温柔地引导他们更好地理解他们刚刚经历的一切。
But not everyone was buying it.
但并不是所有人都买账。
This became clear one morning when Kessler asked his class to write out three ways climate change might impact California in the next 50 years.
一天早上，当凯斯勒要求全班同学写出气候变化可能在未来 50 年影响加州的三种方式时，这一点变得很明显。
And one of his students, a freckled kid with dimples named Nakowa, says this.
他的一位学生，一个名叫纳科瓦（Nakowa）的满脸雀斑和酒窝的孩子这样说道。
You mean this is like global warming stuff?
你的意思是这就像全球变暖的事情？
My parents says it's not true.
我父母说这不是真的。
He says, you mean this global warming stuff?
他说，你是说全球变暖的事吗？
My parents say it's not true.
我父母说这不是真的。
Ah, so you're getting mixed messages.
啊，所以你收到的信息很混乱。
I know that must be a little challenging.
我知道这一定有点挑战性。
Kessler pauses for a second, waiting for the class' attention.
凯斯勒停顿了一下，等待全班同学的注意。
One kid tells Nakowa that his parents are just wrong.
一个孩子告诉 Nakowa，他的父母错了。
Kessler refers back to the charts he'd shown the kids earlier.
凯斯勒回顾了他之前向孩子们展示的图表。
Well, what I try to do is just present you with the data.
好吧，我想做的只是向您提供数据。
So we're just looking at NASA data and interpreting as best we can.
所以我们只是查看美国宇航局的数据并尽我们所能进行解释。
Kessler told me later, he uses data from NASA because, even in a polarized America, most people trust NASA.
凯斯勒后来告诉我，他使用美国宇航局的数据，因为即使在两极分化的美国，大多数人也信任美国宇航局。
But I don't think the mention of NASA was persuading Nakowa, because he just started quoting his parents.
但我认为提到 NASA 并没有说服 Nakowa，因为他刚刚开始引用他的父母的话。
They said if it gets hotter, why does it still-- why this year has there been snow in places?
他们说天气更热了，为什么还是——为什么今年有些地方下雪了？
They said, if it gets hotter, why does it still-- why this year has there been snow in places it hasn't snowed before, Nakowa says?
他们说，如果天气变得更热，为什么还会这样——为什么今年以前没有下过雪的地方却下雪了，纳科瓦说？
Mr. Kessler just listens.
凯斯勒先生只是听着。
He doesn't argue with Nakowa.
他没有与 Nakowa 争论。
Thank you, Nakowa, for sharing.
谢谢 Nakowa 的分享。
So sometimes, we will learn things that might conflict with what you're hearing somewhere else.
因此，有时，我们会学到一些可能与您在其他地方听到的内容相冲突的内容。
Kessler reminds them that science is about looking at the evidence and interpreting it.
凯斯勒提醒他们，科学就是观察证据并解释它。
His philosophy is to not tell them what to think.
他的哲学是不告诉他们该想什么。
It's just discovery.
这只是发现。
That's what science is.
这就是科学。
Nakowa still looks confused.
奈科瓦看上去仍然很困惑。
Nakowa Kelley I don't know who to believe anymore.
Nakowa Kelley 我不知道该相信谁了。
I don't know who to believe anymore, he says.
我不知道该相信谁了，他说。
So do you know that that's what the boys have been learning?
那么你知道这就是男孩们一直在学习的吗？
Mm-hmm, yes.
嗯嗯，是的。
Katie Worth Have you guys been talking about it?
凯蒂·沃斯 你们谈论过这个吗？
We have.
我们有。
We talk about it, because we do not believe it.
我们谈论它，因为我们不相信它。
This is Nakowa's mom, Nancy Kelley.
这是 Nakowa 的妈妈 Nancy Kelley。
I went to visit them after school the next day.
第二天放学后我就去看望他们。
After their house burned, the Kelleys, just like the Wilson family you heard earlier, had to squeeze into cramped quarters-- two parents, three teenage boys, two Boston terriers, an African gray parrot in a one-bedroom apartment.
房子被烧毁后，凯利一家，就像你之前听说过的威尔逊一家一样，不得不挤进狭小的住所——一间卧室的公寓里有两个父母、三个十几岁的男孩、两只波士顿梗犬和一只非洲灰鹦鹉。
That's where we were.
那就是我们所在的地方。
Nakowa sat on the floor.
奈科瓦坐在地板上。
His mom sat on one side of me on the couch, and his dad, Tom, on the other.
他妈妈坐在沙发上我的一侧，他爸爸汤姆坐在另一侧。
Tom is a super friendly guy who just does not buy into the idea that humans have caused the climate to change.
汤姆是一个超级友好的人，他只是不相信人类导致气候变化的观点。
Science, as far as disaster, our Earth is heading towards this disaster, we're killing ourselves-- that's been around since I was in school.
科学地说，就灾难而言，我们的地球正在走向这场灾难，我们正在自杀——从我上学的时候起，这种情况就一直存在。
I mean, the soup of the day is climate change.
我的意思是，今天的焦点是气候变化。
Tom tells me he recently heard the former president of the Canadian wing of Greenpeace say that fossil fuels have actually been good for the planet.
汤姆告诉我，他最近听到绿色和平组织加拿大分会前主席说化石燃料实际上对地球有益。
Where do you get your information about it?
您从哪里获得有关它的信息？
Oh, you pick it up wherever you can pick it up.
哦，你可以在任何可以捡到的地方捡到它。
The ex-president of Greenpeace from Canada, I think that was in a Fox News story.
来自加拿大的绿色和平组织前主席，我认为这是福克斯新闻的报道。
So that's the kind of places we get it from.
这就是我们获取信息的地方。
It's true.
这是真的。
The former president of Greenpeace Canada is one of the rare cases of an environmentalist turned climate denier.
加拿大绿色和平组织前主席是由环保主义者转变为气候否认者的罕见案例之一。
He's been invited onto Fox News multiple times.
他多次受邀参加福克斯新闻。
Throughout this conversation, Nakowa was fidgeting, listening to every word we said.
在整个谈话过程中，纳科瓦坐立不安，听着我们说的每一个字。
The real question is, can you get both sides at school?
真正的问题是，你能在学校里兼顾双方吗？
Is he just going to get the pro?
他只是想获得职业选手吗？
Or are they going to present the con just as eagerly as they present the pro, so that there can be a discussion back and forth?
或者他们是否会像提出优点一样热切地提出反对意见，以便可以进行来回讨论？
I doubt that happens.
我怀疑这种情况会发生。
I imagine the teacher telling them, this is the way it is, backed by NASA, whatever it is.
我想象老师告诉他们，事情就是这样，有美国宇航局的支持，不管它是什么。
And then that's the only thing they hear.
然后这是他们唯一听到的声音。
Did they ever teach you any views opposing climate change?
他们有教过你任何反对气候变化的观点吗？
Or was it just, this is climate change, and this is the proof?
或者只是，这就是气候变化，这就是证据？
Or did they say, no, there are some very good people who disagree with this, and this is what they're saying?
或者他们是否说，不，有一些非常好的人不同意这一点，而这就是他们所说的？
Did they say that?
他们这么说了吗？
No. Mostly, what they show us is the numbers.
不。大多数情况下，他们向我们展示的是数字。
They just show us the charts with all the data on it.
他们只是向我们展示包含所有数据的图表。
For the record, climate change is as settled as science gets.
根据记录，气候变化已经得到科学的解决。
The evidence that humans are warming the Earth is as strong as the evidence that cigarettes cause cancer.
人类正在使地球变暖的证据与香烟致癌的证据一样有力。
And for that matter, the research connecting climate change and fires like the one in Paradise is also sound.
就这一点而言，将气候变化与火灾联系起来的研究（例如天堂里的火灾）也是合理的。
California has always had fires, but the hot, dry conditions that can turn them into mega-fires is on the rise.
加州一直都有火灾发生，但炎热、干燥的天气条件可能导致大火不断增加。
California had just had five record hot years in a row, and it's also been getting drier in the summer and the fall.
加州刚刚连续经历了五个创纪录的炎热年份，夏季和秋季也变得更加干燥。
That fall, it hadn't rained in Paradise in nearly six months.
那年秋天，天堂已经近六个月没有下雨了。
So when the Camp Fire ignited that November morning, it had no trouble becoming the deadliest, most destructive fire in California history.
因此，当坎普大火在那个十一月的早晨点燃时，它毫不费力地成为加州历史上最致命、最具破坏性的火灾。
Inside the hardware store school, I'd been watching how the science teacher, Marc Kessler, tried to delicately guide his students to an understanding of the issue.
在五金店学校里，我一直在观察科学老师马克·凯斯勒（Marc Kessler）如何试图巧妙地引导他的学生理解这个问题。
He didn't use the phrase climate change right away, didn't deliver any screeds against the fossil fuel industry.
他没有立即使用气候变化这个词，也没有发表任何反对化石燃料行业的长篇大论。
He'd been strategic about it.
他对此很有策略。
What I hadn't expected was that, meanwhile, parents like Tom and Nancy were deploying their own strategy.
我没想到的是，与此同时，像汤姆和南希这样的父母正在部署自己的策略。
They weren't telling their kids to pipe up or contradict the teachers, like Nakowa had done.
他们并没有像 Nakowa 那样告诉孩子们要大声嚷嚷或顶撞老师。
They didn't want him to get singled out.
他们不想让他被挑出来。
Better to play the long game.
最好玩长期游戏。
I believe the opportunity for discussion is past.
我相信讨论的机会已经过去了。
It's now you believe and we love you, or you don't believe and we hate you.
现在你相信，我们爱你，或者你不相信，我们恨你。
And unfortunately, because of the hate politics surrounding it, we tell him, don't say this to your teachers.
不幸的是，由于围绕它的仇恨政治，我们告诉他，不要对你的老师说这个。
Just find out what you need to learn in the books, and put it down on the test.
只要在书本上找出你需要学习的内容，然后把它记在测试上即可。
Don't get into the controversial freedom-of-speech thing where you're going to be hated, and marked, and stuff like that.
不要陷入有争议的言论自由问题，否则你会被憎恨、被标记等等。
And unfortunately, that's the reality of our schools today.
不幸的是，这就是我们今天学校的现实。
I wondered about Kyson, the kid who loved science class.
我想知道凯森，那个喜欢科学课的孩子。
Kyson's parents are also climate skeptics.
凯森的父母也是气候怀疑论者。
They also don't see climate change as connected to their fire.
他们也不认为气候变化与他们的火灾有关。
And they also don't want their kid to say any of that in class.
他们也不希望自己的孩子在课堂上说这些话。
Here's Kyson's dad, Brian.
这是凯森的父亲布莱恩。
I know, Kyson, we've talked to him about stuff like that.
我知道，凯森，我们已经和他谈过类似的事情了。
And he'll do the work that he needs to do.
他会做他需要做的工作。
You have to do the work in the class, and you have to get the grade.
你必须在课堂上完成作业，并且必须取得成绩。
It doesn't mean you have to believe in it.
这并不意味着你必须相信它。
So the fire, plus Mr. Kessler's lesson on climate change, had put kids like Kyson in an awkward spot.
因此，这场火灾，加上凯斯勒先生关于气候变化的教训，让像凯森这样的孩子陷入了尴尬的境地。
He's in seventh grade.
他七年级了。
He loves science.
他热爱科学。
He told me on the first day I met him that he'd learned in Mr. Kessler's class that the carbon in the atmosphere was going up and up, and we needed to do something about it.
在我见到他的第一天，他告诉我，他在凯斯勒先生的课堂上了解到，大气中的碳含量正在不断上升，我们需要对此采取一些措施。
But after I talked to his parents and he talked to his parents, we spoke again.
但在我和他的父母交谈，他也和他的父母交谈之后，我们又交谈了。
So it sounds like your parents think one thing, and then you're kind of hearing something different from Mr. Kessler?
听起来你的父母是这么想的，但你却从凯斯勒先生那里听到了不同的说法？
Yeah.
是的。
It's weird because, at school, it's a big thing, and we could do something to stop it.
这很奇怪，因为在学校，这是一件大事，我们可以做点什么来阻止它。
But then at home, our parents tell us something different.
但在家里，我们的父母告诉我们一些不同的事情。
So we don't know what to do.
所以我们不知道该怎么办。
We don't know what to believe and not believe.
我们不知道该相信什么，不相信什么。
If you're a kid, who do you listen to on this existential issue?
如果你是个孩子，在这个存在主义问题上你会听谁的？
If you trust one set of adults, this issue already radically altered the course of your life.
如果你信任一组成年人，这个问题已经从根本上改变了你的生活轨迹。
And if you trust another set of adults, it's all just a hoax perpetrated by people with an agenda.
如果你信任另一组成年人，那么这一切都只是有目的的人所犯下的骗局。
What do you believe?
你相信什么？
Kyson Wilson I believe both, kind of.
凯森·威尔逊（Kyson Wilson）我两者都相信。
What caused the fire?
火灾发生的原因是什么？
Kyson Wilson I heard it's a power line that went down, and it started to make a big fire.
凯森·威尔逊（Kyson Wilson） 我听说是电源线断了，然后开始发生大火。
Do you remember Mr. Kessler saying that climate change could lead to higher risk of fires?
您还记得凯斯勒先生说过气候变化可能导致更高的火灾风险吗？
Yeah, I do remember that.
是的，我确实记得这一点。
So I guess it could be really important, because that's kind of what happened.
所以我想这可能非常重要，因为这就是发生的事情。
But it happened because of a power line, not a climate change.
但这是由于电线造成的，而不是气候变化。
So that's that.
就是这样。
It's like Kyson was trying to find some way that they might all be right-- his parents and his teacher, three adults he really looked up to.
就像凯森试图找到某种方法，让他们都可能是对的——他的父母和他的老师，他真正尊敬的三个成年人。
Kyson is part of a whole generation born into a world that's already being defined by climate change, but also born into a world awash with misinformation about it.
凯森属于这一代人，他们出生在一个已经被气候变化所定义的世界，但也出生在一个充斥着有关气候变化的错误信息的世界。
And that means it's possible to learn about climate change in school, to have your whole town burned down in a climate-fueled catastrophe, to see the flames with your own eyes, and still not feel sure about it.
这意味着你可以在学校里了解气候变化，让你的整个城镇在气候引发的灾难中被烧毁，亲眼看到火焰，但仍然不确定。
Katie Worth, she's the author of the book, Miseducation, How Climate Change is Taught in America.
凯蒂·沃思（Katie Worth）是《错误教育：美国如何教授气候变化》一书的作者。
Well, our program was produced today by Aviva DeKornfeld.
嗯，我们今天的节目是由 Aviva DeKornfeld 制作的。
The people who put together today's show includes Chris Benderev, Susan Burton, Ben Calhoun, Dana Chivvis, Sean Cole, Michal Comite, Andrea López-Cruzado, Chana Joffe-Walt, Seth Lind, Michelle Navarro, Stowe Nelson, Katherine Rae Mondo, Laura Starecheski, Lilly Sullivan, Jessica Soriano, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, Julie Whitaker, and Diane Wu.
今天节目的制作人包括 Chris Benderev、Susan Burton、Ben Calhoun、Dana Chivvis、Sean Cole、Michal Comite、Andrea López-Cruzado、Chana Joffe-Walt、Seth Lind、Michelle Navarro、Stowe Nelson、Katherine Rae Mondo、Laura Starecheski、Lilly Sullivan、Jessica Soriano、Christopher Swetala、Matt蒂尔尼、朱莉·惠特克和黛安·吴。
Our managing editor is Sarah Abdurrahman.
我们的总编辑是萨拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sarah Abdurrahman)。
Our senior editor is David Kestenbaum.
我们的高级编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。
Our executive editor is Emanuele Berry.
我们的执行编辑是 Emanuele Berry。
Special thanks today to Allison Green, Stephanie Jenkins, Margaret Cargioli of Immigrant Defenders, Mark Steedman, Park Williams, Sophie McKibben, Anna Martin, Sarah Ventre, Austin Fast, David Drexler, and the Paradise Unified School District.
今天特别感谢艾莉森·格林、斯蒂芬妮·詹金斯、移民捍卫者组织的玛格丽特·卡吉奥利、马克·斯蒂德曼、帕克·威廉姆斯、索菲·麦基本、安娜·马丁、莎拉·文特、奥斯汀·法斯特、大卫·德雷克斯勒和天堂联合学区。
Our website, ThisAmericanLife.org, where you can stream our archive of over 750 episodes for absolutely free.
我们的网站 ThisAmericanLife.org，您可以在其中完全免费地观看我们的 750 多集档案。
Also, there's videos.
另外，还有视频。
There's lists of favorite programs, if you're looking for something to listen to.
如果您正在寻找可听的节目，这里有您喜爱的节目列表。
There's tons of other stuff there.
那里还有很多其他东西。
Again, ThisAmericanLife.org.
再次，ThisAmericanLife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
Recently, he's been helping his niece and nephew with their second-grade homework.
最近，他一直在辅导侄女和侄子做二年级的作业。
So sweet.
如此甜蜜。
He's so good with them, until they finish up.
他对他们很好，直到他们结束。
And then I don't know, his tone--
然后我不知道，他的语气——
I got every single question right.
我每一个问题都答对了。
I'm the only one that did, I think.
我想，我是唯一这样做的人。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
(SINGING) 'Cause you can't pull the wool over my eyes.
（唱歌）因为你无法蒙蔽我的眼睛。
Oh, no. You can't pull the wool over my eyes.
哦，不。你不能蒙蔽我的眼睛。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。