77: Pray - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #77 | October 12, 2001 77: Pray Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 77 集 | 2001 年 10 月 12 日 77：请注意：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass OK, here's a couple for you.
序言 Ira Glass 好的，这里有一些给你。
First him.
首先是他。
I usually always say that I'm a Christian first.
我通常总是说我首先是基督徒。
Yes, I try to go to church every Sunday.
是的，我尝试每周日去教堂。
I'm very active in the church.
我在教会里非常活跃。
I was the chairman of the congregation.
我是会众的主席。
OK, that's him.
好吧，就是他。
Now her.
现在是她。
Mary Rauer I'm an atheist.
玛丽·劳尔 我是一个无神论者。
I only go to church on Sunday, let's say, if my daughter is performing a violin recital there.
比方说，我只在周日去教堂，如果我女儿在那里表演小提琴演奏会。
And I don't really participate in the service.
而且我并没有真正参与这项服务。
I just sit there.
我只是坐在那里。
Can people who have religion and people who don't truly understand each other?
有宗教信仰的人和没有真正信仰的人能互相理解吗？
Mary and Manford Rauer have been married for 22 years.
玛丽和曼福德·劳尔已经结婚 22 年了。
They have a teenage daughter.
他们有一个十几岁的女儿。
It is, surprisingly, harmonious.
令人惊讶的是，它是和谐的。
And then how would it work when you were president of the congregation?
那么当你担任会众主席时，会怎样运作呢？
Isn't that the kind of job where, usually, somebody would bring their whole family along to a lot of different kinds of events?
在这种工作中，通常有人会带着全家人一起参加很多不同类型的活动吗？
Well, a lot of people thought that he was single, actually.
事实上，很多人都认为他单身。
I think people that are not directly involved thought he was single.
我认为没有直接参与的人认为他是单身。
Yes, that is true.
是的，确实如此。
I've been approached, "Oh, my daughter's divorced," or whatever.
有人跟我说过“哦，我女儿离婚了”之类的话。
"Would you like to meet her?" And I said, "I'm sorry.
“你想见见她吗？”我说：“对不起。
I'm married."
我结婚了。”
Mary was Catholic when they first met and lost her faith by the time they were married.
他们第一次见面时，玛丽是天主教徒，但在结婚时就失去了信仰。
But they talked about these things so infrequently that it wasn't until their daughter was born, years later, that her husband really understood that she wanted no part of religion at all.
但他们很少谈论这些事情，直到几年后他们的女儿出生，她的丈夫才真正明白她根本不想参与宗教活动。
Here's how they make it work.
他们是这样运作的。
They have a system, namely, they do not discuss it at all.
他们有一个系统，也就是说，他们根本不讨论它。
I'm not going to push the issue because I want a good marriage.
我不会推动这个问题，因为我想要一段美好的婚姻。
What's there to talk about?
有什么可谈的？
Manford Rauer That's why.
曼福德·劳尔 这就是原因。
I mean, if we're going argue every time-- I mean, if I don't believe anything he says, where's the talking?
我的意思是，如果我们每次都争论——我的意思是，如果我不相信他说的任何话，那还谈什么？
What are we going to talk about?
我们要谈什么？
I mean, it doesn't interfere in our everyday life.
我的意思是，它不会干扰我们的日常生活。
I mean, maybe he prays for somebody.
我的意思是，也许他为某人祈祷。
But he's not one to read the Bible constantly either, so it's not really an issue except Sunday morning, you know?
但他也不是一个经常读圣经的人，所以除了周日早上之外，这并不是什么问题，你知道吗？
Well, every morning when I get up, I do read the Bible.
嗯，每天早上我起床时，我都会读圣经。
I guess she doesn't know that.
我猜她不知道这一点。
You don't know that, do you?
你不知道这一点，是吗？
Mary Rauer Well, I see him reading the Bible once in a while.
玛丽·劳尔 嗯，我偶尔看到他读圣经。
It doesn't seem like it's every day, unless he's hiding somewhere and reading it because I certainly don't see it.
看起来并不是每天都是这样，除非他躲在某个地方读它，因为我当然看不到它。
Where do you read?
你在哪里读书？
I get up earlier than you do, and I find time to read.
我比你起得早，而且我有时间读书。
I'm in the process of reading the Psalms right now.
我现在正在阅读诗篇。
In a sense this is a more tragic story for him than for her.
从某种意义上说，这对他来说是一个比对她来说更悲惨的故事。
After all, he believes he's going to heaven.
毕竟，他相信他会去天堂。
And he believes that when he gets there she will not be there because she doesn't have a relationship with Jesus.
他相信当他到达那里时，她不会在那里，因为她与耶稣没有关系。
And he prays for her and waits for God to intervene in her life.
他为她祈祷，等待上帝介入她的生活。
Meanwhile, she does not want him to praying for her.
与此同时，她不希望他为她祈祷。
She doesn't want to see the light.
她不想看到光。
And, for all they have together, there's a part of his faith, there's a part of him, that she just doesn't get.
而且，尽管他们拥有一切，但他的信仰的一部分，他的一部分，她就是不明白。
It's not that I don't understand him.
并不是我不理解他。
It's I understand people wanting their religion and their faith.
我理解人们想要他们的宗教和信仰。
That's no problem.
那没问题。
But the part I have trouble with is why do they believe that?
但我遇到的问题是他们为什么相信这一点？
It's like a dream or it's a non-real world.
这就像一个梦，或者说这是一个非现实的世界。
And I'm more in reality here.
我在这里更现实。
It's not a real world.
这不是一个真实的世界。
You mean you feel like they're living in a fantasy.
你的意思是你觉得他们生活在幻想中。
Right.
正确的。
Manford Rauer First of all, I would like to say, because I find that my prayers are answered with my relationship with God when I pray, I think he's in our lives every day.
Manford Rauer 首先，我想说，因为我发现当我祈祷时我的祈祷得到了我与神的关系的回应，我认为他每天都在我们的生活中。
And I feel that God has a direction for your life.
我觉得上帝为你的人生指明了方向。
And he's going to get you where He needs you to serve him.
他会带你去他需要你服务他的地方。
So, if God has a direction for your life, so I'm directed to be an atheist.
所以，如果上帝对你的生活有一个方向，那么我就被指引成为一个无神论者。
That's how I look at this, you know?
我就是这么看这件事的，你知道吗？
If God directs your life, he directed me to be an atheist.
如果上帝指导你的生活，他就指导我成为一个无神论者。
No, God wills everybody to be a Christian.
不，神希望每个人都成为基督徒。
Now, do not be deceived by how they're arguing in this little clip of tape.
现在，不要被他们在这段小磁带中的争论所欺骗。
In their normal lives, when they're not being interviewed about the existence of God, these people show all the signs of a couple who are remarkably happy together.
在他们的正常生活中，当他们没有接受关于上帝存在的采访时，这些人表现出一对在一起非常幸福的夫妻的所有迹象。
Looked at it in one way, this story is about how the secular and religious worlds cannot understand each other, ever.
从某种角度来看，这个故事讲述的是世俗世界和宗教世界如何永远无法相互理解。
But, looked at in another, it's a story about how well they can, which brings us to today's program.
但是，从另一个角度来看，这是一个关于他们能有多好的故事，这让我们看到了今天的节目。
From WBEZ Chicago and Public Radio International, it's This American Life .
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 和国际公共广播电台的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today on our radio program Christians and non-Christians together again.
今天在我们的广播节目中基督徒和非基督徒再次聚集在一起。
Act One of our program, Exodus.
我们的节目第一幕，《出埃及记》。
A completely secular person arrives in a town where thousands of people are taking part in a massive prayer project to save their city.
一个完全世俗的人到达一个小镇，那里有成千上万的人正在参加一场大规模的祈祷项目，以拯救他们的城市。
Act Two, Kings.
第二幕，国王。
Scott Carrier talks about carpenters and Christians and why the two should not be allowed to be together.
斯科特·卡里尔 (Scott Carrier) 谈论木匠和基督徒，以及为什么不应允许两者在一起。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, Exodus.
第一幕，出埃及记。
Usually we think of prayer as a private thing.
通常我们认为祷告是一件私人的事情。
All prayer like all politics is local.
所有的祈祷就像所有的政治一样都是地方性的。
Most people pray for those near and dear to them, sort of.
大多数人都会为那些亲近的人祈祷。
In Colorado Springs, Colorado, there's an elaborate program underway involving dozens of churches and thousands of people to pray, not just for those nearby, but to try to fundamentally alter the civic life of their city through prayer.
在科罗拉多州科罗拉多斯普林斯，一项精心策划的计划正在进行中，涉及数十个教堂和数千人祈祷，不仅为附近的人祈祷，还试图通过祈祷从根本上改变城市的公民生活。
The details of how they do this are complicated.
他们如何做到这一点的细节很复杂。
It's almost like a modern door-to-door marketing or canvassing campaign.
这几乎就像现代的挨家挨户营销或游说活动。
They use maps and computers and statistics to chart out what parts of their city need prayer for what reasons merged with something that cannot be less modern, prayer.
他们使用地图、计算机和统计数据来绘制城市的哪些部分出于何种原因需要祈祷，并与祈祷这一现代的东西结合起来。
And, when This American Life producer, Alix Spiegel, started to investigate it, it became something she could not get out of her mind.
当《美国生活》的制片人阿利克斯·斯皮格尔开始调查此事时，这件事成了她无法忘怀的事情。
She decided she had to go to Colorado to see what it was all about.
她决定必须去科罗拉多州看看到底是怎么回事。
This is the tape that brought me to Colorado Springs.
正是这盘磁带把我带到了科罗拉多斯普林斯。
It's a sermon given by Pastor Ted Haggard of the New Life Church about prayer walking.
这是新生命教会的特德·哈格德牧师关于行走祷告的讲道。
Pastor Ted has taken a map of the city, divided it into districts, assigned those districts to people in his congregation, and together they're walking up and down every street praying for the people in the houses and all the shops and businesses.
泰德牧师拿了一张城市地图，将其划分为几个区，将这些区分配给他的会众，然后他们一起在每条街道上走来走去，为房屋里的人们以及所有商店和企业祈祷。
I love grid praying where we walk.
我喜欢在我们走路的地方祈祷。
You have the parallel streets, and you put a person at the end of each street, and then you walk up and down that street.
你有平行的街道，你把一个人放在每条街道的尽头，然后你沿着那条街道走来走去。
And at the end of every block you check, make sure your buddy's there, and make sure your buddy's there.
在你检查的每个街区结束时，确保你的好友在那里，并确保你的好友在那里。
Then you do another block, and you make sure your buddy's there, and make sure your buddy's there.
然后你再做一个街区，确保你的好友在那里，并确保你的好友在那里。
Then you pray another block.
然后你祈祷另一个街区。
So you pray over every home, every business, every school, everything.
所以你为每个家庭、每个企业、每个学校、一切事物祈祷。
And you realize, you know, if we weren't doing this, some of these people would never be prayed for.
你知道，如果我们不这样做，其中一些人将永远不会得到祈祷。
The thing about this that I find so striking is that it's not a PR campaign.
我发现这件事如此引人注目的是，这不是一场公关活动。
They don't knock on doors.
他们不敲门。
They don't ask for donations.
他们不要求捐款。
They're not trying to win the hearts and minds of non-Christians by letting them know how much they care about them.
他们并不是想让非基督徒知道他们有多么关心他们，从而赢得他们的心。
In fact, they don't even want the people being prayed for to know that they're being prayed over.
事实上，他们甚至不希望被祈祷的人知道他们正在被祈祷。
So start walking it discreetly and with wisdom, praying.
因此，开始谨慎、智慧地行走，并祈祷。
You don't want to intimidate people.
你不想恐吓别人。
You don't want to embarrass other people or anything like that.
你不想让其他人难堪或类似的事情。
Prayer is a private thing.
祷告是一件私人的事。
We don't stand up and go, "Come on Holy Spirit," or anything like that.
我们不会站起来说“圣灵来吧”或类似的话。
We just walk along, have a baseball cap on, jug of water or whatever, Mountain Dew, if you want some spice.
我们只是一边走，一边戴上棒球帽，带上一壶水或者其他什么东西，激浪，如果你想要一些香料的话。
And we'll be walking along and we'll just pray, "Father, in the name of Jesus--
我们会一边走一边祈祷：“天父，奉耶稣的名——
The simplicity of this idea appealed to me, people walking, praying for people they don't know without expectation of reward.
这个想法的简单性吸引了我，人们行走，为他们不认识的人祈祷，而不期望得到回报。
I wanted to see if it was as pure an act of kindness as it seemed to be.
我想看看这是否像看上去那样纯粹是一种善意的行为。
I wanted to see if all the prayer was having any effect.
我想看看所有的祈祷是否有效果。
No other American city is working as systematically to get God's attention.
没有其他美国城市能够像这样系统地努力引起上帝的注意。
And I thought that, surely, if God is going to speak anywhere in modern America, he's going to speak in Colorado Springs.
我想，如果上帝要在现代美国的任何地方说话，他肯定会在科罗拉多斯普林斯说话。
My first surprise on arriving in Colorado is that the New Life Church looks less like a place of worship and more like a Walgreens than any religious institution I have ever seen.
到达科罗拉多州后，我的第一个惊喜是，与我见过的任何宗教机构相比，新生命教堂看起来不像一个礼拜场所，而更像沃尔格林。
It's a long, flat, gray and turquoise building with a large satellite dish on top where most churches would keep a cross.
这是一座长长的、平坦的、灰色和绿松石色的建筑，顶部有一个巨大的卫星天线，大多数教堂都会在上面放一个十字架。
New Life is what's known as a megachurch.
新生活教堂就是所谓的巨型教堂。
It has 6,000 members.
它有 6,000 名会员。
Over 1% of the population of Colorado Springs, it claims.
据称，科罗拉多斯普林斯市人口的 1% 以上。
My second surprise on arriving at New Life is that, while all the people are completely kind, they smile, they're gracious, they always offer to get me coffee even though I don't drink coffee, I can't understand a word they're saying.
到达新生活后我的第二个惊喜是，虽然所有人都非常友善，但他们微笑，他们很有礼貌，他们总是主动请我咖啡，即使我不喝咖啡，我也听不懂他们在说什么。
As we pray we open a hole in the spiritual dynamics above the earth in the spiritual realm of the earth.
当我们祈祷时，我们在地球灵性领域的地球上方的灵性动态中打开了一个洞。
So here's planet earth, here.
所以这里是地球，这里。
This is Trish.
这是崔西。
She works at New Life in the public relations department.
她在 New Life 公关部工作。
She took me to lunch.
她带我去吃午饭。
And, before the food came, I decided to warm her up with a question I thought I knew the answer to.
而且，在食物上桌之前，我决定用一个我认为我知道答案的问题来温暖她。
How does prayer work?
祷告如何发挥作用？
I figured she'd tell me something like, "You pray.
我想她会告诉我类似这样的话：“你祈祷吧。
And God hears you.
上帝会听到你的声音。
And he answers." But, two napkins worth of diagrams later, I realized it was much more complicated.
他回答了。”但是，在看了两张餐巾纸大小的图表之后，我意识到事情要复杂得多。
So what I've done is I just drew an opening in this biosphere of spiritual dynamics that are going on in the heavenlies.
所以我所做的就是在天上发生的灵性动态生物圈中画出一个开口。
And, as we open this sphere, we allow the will of God, the kingdom of God, to come to planet earth.
而且，当我们打开这个球体时，我们就允许神的旨意、神的国降临到地球上。
Trish, like most of the other Christians I met in Colorado Springs, speaks a very particular language.
崔西和我在科罗拉多斯普林斯遇到的大多数其他基督徒一样，说着一种非常特殊的语言。
They're constantly using phrases like spiritual dynamics, standing in the gap, spiritual discernment, intercessors, the Joshua generation, true in your walk, in the natural, the 10/40 window.
他们不断地使用诸如灵性动力、站在差距中、灵性洞察力、代祷者、约书亚一代、在你的行走中真实、在自然中、10/40窗口之类的短语。
And, for me, it's like being in a foreign country.
而且，对我来说，这就像身处异国他乡。
I come from a family of non-religious Jews.
我来自一个无宗教信仰的犹太人家庭。
I never had any kind of religious training.
我从未接受过任何宗教训练。
And, while I know some devout Christians, all of my friends belong to the America that never goes to church on Sunday.
而且，虽然我认识一些虔诚的基督徒，但我所有的朋友都属于周日从不去教堂的美国。
After listening to this Christian jargon for a day and a half, I realize that I'm not understanding well enough to do a decent story.
听了一天半的基督教术语后，我意识到我的理解还不够好，无法写出一个像样的故事。
So I go and visit the person in charge of setting up my interviews while I'm at New Life, Pastor Joseph Thompson.
所以我去拜访了在新生活时负责安排采访的人约瑟夫·汤普森牧师。
Joseph is a tall, broad Nigerian, and I like him.
约瑟夫是一个高大、宽阔的尼日利亚人，我喜欢他。
I like him a lot.
我很喜欢他。
For a pastor, he's a very worldly man.
对于一个牧师来说，他是一个非常世俗的人。
He was a professional soccer player.
他是一名职业足球运动员。
He was trained as an architect, speaks several languages, travels widely.
他接受过建筑师培训，会说多种语言，经常旅行。
And he's the first Christian in Colorado Springs who can tell me a joke.
他是科罗拉多斯普林斯第一个能给我讲笑话的基督徒。
We have a refreshingly frank discussion.
我们进行了一次令人耳目一新的坦诚讨论。
I tell him that, because of the language thing, I'm afraid that none of the people that I've talked to will be understood by, or appealing to, a secular audience.
我告诉他，由于语言问题，我担心与我交谈过的人都不会被世俗观众理解或吸引。
That I need someone who doesn't sound like they're piping out the party line.
我需要一个听起来不像是在宣扬党派路线的人。
Then he tells me that he doesn't believe that what's going on with the Christians in the city of Colorado Springs can be understood by people outside.
然后他告诉我，他不相信外面的人能够理解科罗拉多斯普林斯市的基督徒所发生的事情。
That, in fact, the whole of the Christian spiritual world is incomprehensible to the secular mind.
事实上，整个基督教的精神世界对于世俗的头脑来说是无法理解的。
There is no common ground.
没有共同点。
I, of course, argue with him, say that people are people, and ultimately we can understand one another.
我当然会跟他争论，说人就是人，最终还是能够互相理解的。
And we go back and forth and back and forth.
我们来来回回。
He insists that the religious can't be understood by the non-religious, I insist they can.
他坚持认为宗教不能被非宗教人士理解，我坚持认为他们可以。
And, at some point, I get visibly frustrated and upset.
而且，在某些时候，我明显感到沮丧和不安。
This is when Joseph turns to me with a whole new look in his eyes, like up until this point he didn't understand something that suddenly he understood.
就在这时，约瑟夫转向我，眼神焕然一新，就像之前他不明白的事情突然明白了一样。
And this is what he says.
这就是他所说的。
He says, "You're looking for something.
他说：“你正在寻找一些东西。
You came here for some other reason.
你来这里还有其他原因。
You didn't come here to do a story about prayer walking.
你来这里不是为了写一个关于行走祷告的故事。
You were sent here for something else." And I sit, kind of blink at him dumbly, and wonder if he's right.
你被派到这里来是为了别的事。”我坐下来，呆呆地看着他，想知道他是否是对的。
Joseph refers me to a youth group where I finally find a prayer walker who doesn't speak in jargon.
约瑟夫向我介绍了一个青年团体，在那里我终于找到了一个不会说行话的祷告行者。
His name is Paul.
他的名字叫保罗。
His parents are Mormons, but he became a charismatic Christian two years ago when he joined the New Life Church.
他的父母都是摩门教徒，但两年前加入新生命教会后，他成为了一名有魅力的基督徒。
That's when he started prayer walking.
就在那时，他开始行走祷告。
I go with him early one evening.
一天晚上我很早就和他一起去了。
And he explains that the more specific his prayers are, the more likely it is that God'll answer them.
他解释说，他的祈祷越具体，上帝就越有可能回应他们。
So, as he walks by a house, he looks at the lawn and the stickers on cars searching for physical cues which will tell them what's going on inside.
因此，当他走过一栋房子时，他会看着草坪和汽车上的贴纸，寻找物理线索来告诉他们里面发生了什么。
The outward appearance of the house, you know, the lawn, the way the house is kept up on the outside, you can usually tell.
房子的外观，你知道，草坪，房子外面的维护方式，你通常可以看出。
Because they're too busy fighting with their family, that they can't get any of that other stuff done, you know?
因为他们太忙于与家人争吵，以至于他们无法完成任何其他事情，你知道吗？
Like, when my parents got divorced, our lawn looked kind of bad.
就像，当我父母离婚时，我们的草坪看起来有点糟糕。
I really didn't care because I didn't think anything really mattered, you know?
我真的不在乎，因为我认为任何事情都不重要，你知道吗？
I was just like, "Ah, I don't care.
我只是想，“啊，我不在乎。
Life is dumb."
生活是愚蠢的。”
If the house looks like it belongs to a couple with kids, Paul will pray for God to keep the kids away from drugs.
如果房子看起来像是一对有孩子的夫妇的，保罗会祈求上帝让孩子们远离毒品。
If the house looks like it belongs to an old person, Paul will pray for God to keep them safe from diseases and pain and bless their grandchildren.
如果房子看起来像是属于老人的，保罗会祈求上帝保佑他们远离疾病和痛苦，并祝福他们的孙子。
It's exactly what I imagined prayer walking would be, people taking time, praying for people they don't know, and asking for nothing in return.
这正是我想象中的步行祈祷，人们花时间，为他们不认识的人祈祷，不求任何回报。
I watch Paul as he prays.
我看着保罗祈祷。
And I can see him really straining to imagine what these people are like.
我可以看到他真的很努力地想象这些人是什么样的。
He's standing on the sidewalk in front of his neighbor's blue, two-story house.
他站在邻居蓝色两层楼房前的人行道上。
His eyes are closed.
他的眼睛闭着。
And his eyelids are trembling slightly.
而他的眼皮也在微微颤抖。
Thank you so much for this beautiful day, Father.
非常感谢您度过了这美好的一天，父亲。
I thank you for the neighbors that you've given me, Father, that they know that there is nothing better than to just sit down and just read your word, or to get on their knees and just pray to you.
天父，我感谢你赐给我的邻居，他们知道没有什么比坐下来读你的话语，或者跪下来向你祈祷更好的了。
And, Holy Spirit, I pray you just flow through this house.
而且，圣灵，我祈祷你能流过这所房子。
Go through each and every single room.
穿过每一个房间。
There's something really intimate about prayer walking, at least, the way it's practiced by Paul.
行走祷告有一些非常亲密的东西，至少保罗实践的方式是这样。
He walks quietly down the street fantasizing about the lives of the people he's praying for, and it changes the way that he feels about them.
他静静地走在街上，幻想着他所祈祷的人们的生活，这改变了他对他们的看法。
If he happens to meet them in school or in a neighborhood get-together, he's more friendly than usual and ends up asking a lot of specific personal questions about their family, how everybody's doing.
如果他碰巧在学校或社区聚会中遇到他们，他会比平时更加友好，最后会问很多有关他们家庭、每个人过得怎么样的具体个人问题。
I feel as if I've already started some kind of relationship, some kind of friendship, because I prayed for them.
我觉得我好像已经开始了某种关系、某种友谊，因为我为他们祈祷。
And then, once I really start to get to know them more, I will be able to see the fruits of my prayer and see how my prayers have affected that person's life, even if they know it or not.
然后，一旦我真正开始更多地了解他们，我将能够看到我的祈祷的成果，并看到我的祈祷如何影响了那个人的生活，即使他们是否知道。
When I asked Paul how he knows what he's doing is changing anything, he looked at me like I just asked him how he knows the sun will come up tomorrow.
当我问保罗如何知道他正在做的事情正在改变任何事情时，他看着我，就像我刚刚问他如何知道明天太阳会升起一样。
And then he asks me a question.
然后他问我一个问题。
God created the earth, why can't he change it?
上帝创造了地球，为什么不能改变它呢？
The next day, Thursday, I go to visit Joseph in his office just to talk.
第二天，星期四，我去约瑟夫的办公室拜访他，只是想谈谈。
I find myself going to visit Joseph just to talk quite a bit.
我发现自己去拜访约瑟夫只是为了聊聊。
I visit or we talk on the phone three, maybe four times, a day.
我每天会拜访或者通电话三次，也许四次。
Some of this is logistics.
其中一些是物流。
He's helping me find people to interview, giving me telephone numbers.
他帮我找人采访，给我电话号码。
But a lot of it isn't logistics at all.
但其中很多根本不是物流。
We talk about our lives and argue about Christianity.
我们谈论我们的生活并争论基督教。
He thinks I'm going to Hell, I don't.
他认为我会下地狱，但我不会。
He thinks the only way to lead a just life is with Jesus, I don't.
他认为过正义生活的唯一方法就是与耶稣在一起，我不这么认为。
And, always, there's this friendly, low-level cultural clash which, for some reason, seems to surprise both of us every time we stumble onto it.
而且，总是存在这种友好的、低水平的文化冲突，出于某种原因，每次我们偶然发现它时，似乎都会感到惊讶。
At one point he mentions in passing a conference he went to on evolution and tells me about some new evidence they were discussing which proves Darwin was a fool and a fake.
有一次，他在路过他参加的一场关于进化论的会议时提到，并告诉我他们正在讨论的一些新证据，这些证据证明达尔文是个傻瓜和骗子。
I, of course, start to argue.
当然，我开始争论。
Then there's this long, kind of sad silence.
然后就是一段漫长的、悲伤的沉默。
And he says to me, "I should've realized that you would be a Darwinist," which is exactly what I was thinking about him.
他对我说，“我应该意识到你会成为达尔文主义者”，这正是我对他的看法。
I should have realized that you would be Creationist.
我早该意识到你会是神创论者。
I talk to Joseph about the prayer walkers, tell him about Paul's prayer walk, Paul's empathy for the people he's praying for.
我和约瑟夫谈论步行祷告者，告诉他保罗的步行祷告，保罗对他所祷告的人的同情心。
Joseph accepts this kind of empathy as a matter of course.
约瑟夫认为这种同理心是理所当然的。
"It's the duty of a Christian," he says.
“这是基督徒的责任，”他说。
At one point, he turns to me.
有一次，他转向我。
You may not realize this, but there are people praying for you.
你可能没有意识到这一点，但有人在为你祈祷。
Even here, now, in this church, people are praying for you so that you will come into a relationship with Jesus the same way that we have experienced.
即使现在在这里，在这座教堂里，人们也在为你祈祷，以便你能像我们所经历的那样与耶稣建立关系。
Thursday night I go home to my hotel room and walk in little circles thinking about Joseph.
周四晚上，我回到酒店房间，绕着小圈走着，心里想着约瑟夫。
I construct elaborate arguments about why I don't want to become a Christian, why I can't become a Christian.
我精心构建了关于为什么我不想成为基督徒、为什么我不能成为基督徒的论据。
I get one hour of sleep, maybe two.
我睡一小时，也许两个小时。
Having a good day?
过得愉快吗？
Man Well, I'll tell you later.
伙计，好吧，我稍后再告诉你。
OK, see you.
好的，再见。
The next morning, I have an early appointment with a woman named Jennifer Phillips who's called to pray for the homeless.
第二天早上，我提前约见了一位名叫詹妮弗·菲利普斯的女士，她被要求为无家可归者祈祷。
Twice a week, she goes to the center square in downtown Colorado Springs and prays for all the men and women sleeping on park benches.
她每周两次前往科罗拉多斯普林斯市中心的中心广场，为所有睡在公园长椅上的男女祈祷。
Jennifer is in her 20s, cute, with a nose pierce and a plaid, button-down, and I like her a lot.
詹妮弗二十多岁，很可爱，有鼻孔，穿着格子领扣，我很喜欢她。
But her language is so dense with biblical reference, and I'm so tired, that I just hear this wall of Christianese, spiritual warfare, spiritual strongholds, praying in a spiritual foundation.
但她的语言充满了圣经的参考，我太累了，我只听到这堵基督教的墙，精神战争，精神堡垒，在精神基础上祈祷。
Then she tells me that she gets nervous when she comes to the park.
然后她告诉我，当她来到公园时她会感到紧张。
And it's not just because she's a woman alone, walking at night or in the early morning when there are not many people around.
这不仅仅是因为她是一个独自一人的女人，在夜晚或清晨周围人不多的时候行走。
There's another reason she gets nervous.
她紧张还有另一个原因。
Demonic strongholds in this area, things that have, just over centuries, that people might have-- I mean, I don't know what this land was years ago.
这个地区的恶魔据点，几个世纪以来人们可能拥有的东西——我的意思是，我不知道这片土地几年前是什么。
I know there's a lot of land around here where they did sacrifices, cultic things, that you have to pray that out.
我知道这里有很多土地，他们在那里进行祭祀和祭祀活动，你必须为此祈祷。
And, in Ephesians, it talks about being dressed in spiritual armor.
而且，在以弗所书中，它谈到穿上属灵的盔甲。
It says that Satan roams the earth.
它说撒旦在地球上游荡。
He's the prince of the air, and he roams back and forth over the earth.
他是空中的王子，在大地上来回漫游。
Up until this moment with Jennifer, I thought that prayer walking was about wishing your neighbor well, kind of looking around for the next guy and hoping the best for him.
直到与詹妮弗在一起的这一刻，我认为步行祈祷是祝愿你的邻居一切顺利，有点四处寻找下一个人并希望他一切顺利。
But, as Jennifer talks, I realize that it's something else, something much more medieval.
但是，正如詹妮弗所说，我意识到这是另一回事，更中世纪的东西。
She explains that Satan is a living, active presence, just as God is a living, active presence, and that all around the sunny streets of Colorado Springs there is constant and intensive warfare between the two.
她解释说，撒旦是一个活生生的、活跃的存在，就像上帝是一个活生生的、活跃的存在一样，在科罗拉多斯普林斯阳光明媚的街道周围，两者之间不断发生着激烈的战争。
Jennifer is one of God's warriors, and it's dangerous.
詹妮弗是上帝的战士之一，这很危险。
I mean, there's times where people go through warfare, spiritual warfare, and we'll pray.
我的意思是，有时人们会经历战争，属灵的战争，我们会祈祷。
And the next week they'll lose their job.
下周他们就会失业。
There's a woman that intercedes for the church right now, and she lost her job.
现在有一位女士为教会代求，但她丢了工作。
Strange things just happen to happen that next week after praying.
下周祈祷后奇怪的事情就发生了。
It's a battle, which means you can get hurt too.
这是一场战斗，这意味着您也可能会受伤。
Have you ever been hurt?
你受过伤害吗？
Jennifer Phillips OK, yeah.
詹妮弗·菲利普斯 好的，是的。
Like, the next day, Satan will try to accuse you of things.
就像，第二天，撒旦会试图指控你的事情。
He's the accuser, like through work.
他是原告，就像通过工作一样。
You may go through depression or hopelessness.
您可能会经历抑郁或绝望。
Often, after prayer walking, Jennifer feels isolated, doesn't want to go out and see people or experiences intense self-doubt.
通常，在步行祈祷后，詹妮弗会感到孤立，不想出去见人，也不想经历强烈的自我怀疑。
These feelings she attributes to Satan.
她将这些感觉归因于撒旦。
She sees it as his way of punishing her for the good that she does.
她认为这是他对她所做的好事的惩罚。
It is a stunning thing in secular America, where every talk show and magazine article reinforces the idea that there are either situational or chemical explanations for feeling one way or the other, to meet someone who has a completely different way of interpreting her emotional life, someone who believes that the reason that they're depressed today is not because their mother didn't love them or because they don't have enough serotonin juicing up the synapses in their brain, but because a supernatural force put a feeling in their head in order to stop them from doing something good.
在世俗的美国，这是一件令人震惊的事情，每一个脱口秀和杂志文章都强化了这样一种观念，即对某种感觉有情境或化学解释，遇到一个以完全不同的方式解释自己情感生活的人，一个相信自己今天抑郁的原因不是因为母亲不爱他们，也不是因为他们没有足够的血清素来刺激大脑中的突触，而是因为一种超自然的力量在他们的头脑中植入了一种感觉，以便让他们感到沮丧。阻止他们做善事。
The way that you just described it, it sounded like you were saying you felt like that was Satan that was putting the depression into you.
按照你刚才的描述，听起来你是在说你感觉是撒旦在给你带来抑郁。
But do you ever think I feel depressed and there are clear reasons for me to feel depressed?
但你是否认为我感到沮丧并且有明确的理由让我感到沮丧？
Or do you always see yourself in a spiritual battleground?
或者你总是看到自己处于精神战场中？
No. No, but there are times that you can tell that all these negative thoughts in your head, and it's like this is not me.
不，不，但有时候你可以看出你脑子里有所有这些消极的想法，就好像这不是我。
This is really bizarre because I'm having an awesome day.
这真的很奇怪，因为我今天过得很开心。
No one's hurt me.
没有人伤害我。
Life is good.
生活是美好的。
Why am I feeling this way?
为什么我有这样的感觉？
Jennifer tells me that there are prayer walkers who can go around and feel the presence of evil in a place even with their eyes closed.
詹妮弗告诉我，有些祈祷步行者即使闭着眼睛也能在某个地方感受到邪恶的存在。
She talks about her experiences coming against witches in Manitoba Springs and the occult in Colorado Springs, about the prayer warriors at New Life who regularly prayer walk certain sections of the city seeking out and destroying the forces of darkness.
她讲述了她在马尼托巴斯普林斯对抗女巫的经历，以及在科罗拉多斯普林斯对抗神秘学的经历，以及新生活组织的祈祷战士们定期在城市的某些地区行走祈祷，寻找并摧毁黑暗势力的故事。
In the taped sermons that brought me to Colorado, there had been talk of the occult and of the forces of Satan, but I hadn't really taken it seriously.
在带我去科罗拉多州的录音布道中，有人谈论神秘学和撒旦的力量，但我并没有真正认真对待它们。
It seemed more metaphorical.
这似乎更具隐喻性。
I hadn't realized that they were, literally, on a witch hunt.
我没有意识到他们实际上是在进行政治迫害。
And, as Jennifer talks, my mind keeps reeling for some common ground.
而且，当詹妮弗讲话时，我的思绪一直在寻找一些共同点。
What are you thinking?
你在想什么？
Alix Spiegel What am I thinking?
阿利克斯·斯皮格尔 我在想什么？
I guess I'm just thinking that I rarely see the world in these terms.
我想我只是在想我很少用这些方式来看待这个世界。
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
I understand.
我明白。
Yeah, this sounds really bizarre.
是的，这听起来真的很奇怪。
I know it probably sounds like where is this stuff coming from?
我知道听起来这东西是从哪里来的？
What sci-fi novel is this coming from?
这是出自哪部科幻小说？
It does sound a little-- I mean, it doesn't sound-- Yeah.
听起来确实有点——我的意思是，听起来不像——是的。
I mean, OK.
我的意思是，好吧。
I'm sure to some people it's going to sound a little sci-fi.
我确信对某些人来说这听起来有点科幻。
I mean, you talk about witches and you talk about covens, and those are things from myths.
我的意思是，你谈论女巫，你谈论女巫集会，而这些都是来自神话的东西。
After I talk to Jennifer, I call Joseph from a pay phone in town.
与詹妮弗交谈后，我用城里的公用电话给约瑟夫打电话。
I tell him that I understand now why he thinks it would be hard to communicate what's happening in Colorado Springs, this vision of the spiritual world, to a secular audience.
我告诉他，我现在明白为什么他认为很难向世俗观众传达科罗拉多斯普林斯发生的事情，以及这种精神世界的愿景。
Joseph doesn't seem surprised by my call.
约瑟夫似乎对我的电话并不感到惊讶。
He tells me that he prayed the night before for God to give me insight into the spiritual world, and now God has answered his prayer.
他告诉我，他前一天晚上祈祷上帝让我洞察精神世界，现在上帝回应了他的祈祷。
Then he asks me pointedly if I slept well.
然后他尖锐地问我睡得好吗。
And I tell him that I hadn't really slept at all and that I'm tired and confused.
我告诉他我根本没睡，我又累又困惑。
We say goodbye and hang up, but talk again later when I'm back in my hotel room.
我们道别并挂断电话，但稍后当我回到酒店房间时再聊。
He says he wants to come clean.
他说他想坦白。
He tells me that he didn't just pray for me to receive understanding of the spiritual world, he also prayed to God that I wouldn't sleep, not until I became a Christian.
他告诉我，他不仅祈求我能够了解精神世界，还祈求上帝让我不要睡觉，直到我成为基督徒。
Alix Spiegel's story about prayer in Colorado Springs continues in a minute from Public Radio International when our program continues.
当我们的节目继续时，国际公共广播电台将继续讲述阿利克斯·斯皮格尔关于科罗拉多斯普林斯祈祷的故事。
This is American Life, I'm Ira Glass.
这就是美国生活，我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, of course, we choose a theme, invite a variety of writers and reporters and performers to tackle that theme.
当然，每周我们的节目都会选择一个主题，邀请各种作家、记者和表演者来解决这个主题。
Today's program, Christians and non-Christians and how well they can understand each other.
今天的节目，基督徒和非基督徒以及他们如何相互理解。
We're in the middle of Act One.
我们正处于第一幕的中间。
This is Alix Spiegel's story about dozens of churches in Colorado who've banded together to change the world through prayer.
这是阿利克斯·斯皮格尔 (Alix Spiegel) 讲述的关于科罗拉多州数十个教会联合起来通过祈祷改变世界的故事。
To give you an idea of the extent of the spiritual battle they're waging against the forces of darkness, not only are they systematically praying in front of every home and school and business in Colorado Springs, they're praying through the phone book one name at a time.
为了让您了解他们与黑暗势力进行的精神斗争的程度，他们不仅系统地在科罗拉多斯普林斯的每个家庭、学校和企业前祈祷，而且还通过电话簿一次一个名字地祈祷。
There are all-night prayer vigils.
有通宵祈祷守夜活动。
Churches have organized so that each one takes a different day each month with teams of people praying 24 hours a day.
教会组织起来，每个月都有不同的一天，一群人每天 24 小时祈祷。
So that, right now, as you hear the sound of my voice, someone, somewhere, is praying for the city of Colorado Springs.
所以，现在，当你听到我的声音时，某个地方的某个人正在为科罗拉多斯普林斯市祈祷。
There's a huge international component to this prayer, flying people to Nepal or Cairo to parts of the world where there aren't a lot of Christians on, what they call, prayer journeys.
这项祈祷有一个巨大的国际组成部分，将人们飞往尼泊尔或开罗，前往世界上没有很多基督徒的地方，他们称之为祈祷之旅。
Groups of people check into hotels, pray for a few days, sometimes never leaving the hotel, then fly back home.
成群结队的人住进酒店，祈祷几天，有时根本不离开酒店，然后飞回家。
They're building a new high-tech world prayer center to coordinate prayer needs in 120 countries.
他们正在建设一个新的高科技世界祈祷中心，以协调 120 个国家的祈祷需求。
And, while it's possible for secular people to understand the idea of these efforts, is there a gap past which it is impossible for them to understand?
而且，虽然世俗人们有可能理解这些努力的理念，但是否存在他们无法理解的鸿沟？
Alix Spiegel's story continues.
阿利克斯·斯皮格尔的故事还在继续。
I don't sleep for two days, and it makes me feel like I'm going crazy.
我已经两天没睡了，感觉自己快要疯了。
I lose my wallet and think about borrowing money from Joseph but decide against it.
我丢了钱包，想过向约瑟夫借钱，但最终决定放弃。
Several times a day, we talk on the phone, debate Christianity and talk about my story.
每天我们都会通几次电话，辩论基督教并谈论我的故事。
I alternate between thinking that everybody I'm talking to is insane and thinking, while I'm out on prayer walks or sitting through a church service, that they have something that I don't have.
当我外出祈祷或参加教堂礼拜时，我时而认为与我交谈的每个人都疯了，时而认为他们有我没有的东西。
Sometimes, between interviews, I go back to my hotel room and watch TV.
有时，在采访间隙，我会回到酒店房间看电视。
I find it comforting.
我觉得这很令人欣慰。
I stare at the glow of the people on television and try to remember what I would think of all this if I were home in Chicago.
我盯着电视上人们的光芒，试着回忆如果我在芝加哥的家中我会怎么想这一切。
I still have a story to do, and so I go and see Ted Haggard, the man who's sermon brought me to Colorado Springs.
我还有故事要讲，所以我去见特德·哈加德，他的布道把我带到了科罗拉多斯普林斯。
He tells me that his church looks for evidence, scientifically verifiable evidence, that their prayers are having an effect on the community.
他告诉我，他的教会正在寻找证据，科学上可验证的证据，证明他们的祈祷对社区产生了影响。
Yeah, we always see empirical evidence.
是的，我们总是看到经验证据。
We started praying in an organized way in 1985.
我们从1985年开始有组织地祈祷。
That was 12 years ago.
那是12年前的事了。
And the crime rate has declined every year for the past 12 years.
过去12年来，犯罪率逐年下降。
When I suggest that crime rates are falling all over the country, and that, in most places, this is due mainly to demographics, Ted agreed that there was no positive way to know how much the decrease in crime was due to prayer.
当我提出全国各地的犯罪率正在下降，并且在大多数地方，这主要是由于人口统计数据所致时，特德同意，没有积极的方法可以知道犯罪率的下降有多少是由于祈祷所致。
But he still thinks it's true.
但他仍然认为这是真的。
Well, I would say that, my response is that, I believe that the scriptures are true.
好吧，我会这么说，我的回答是，我相信经文是真实的。
And, because I believe the scriptures are true, God tells us some of the things that prayer will do.
而且，因为我相信经文是真实的，所以上帝告诉我们祈祷会做的一些事情。
So I think it's probably a scientifically verifiable phenomenon.
所以我认为这可能是一个可以科学验证的现象。
Ted tells me story after story.
特德给我讲了一个又一个的故事。
They pray over vacant lots hoping the land will serve God's purposes, then watch as a church buys the lot.
他们为空地祈祷，希望这片土地能够实现上帝的目的，然后看着教堂购买这块地。
They pray at porno stores.
他们在色情商店祈祷。
I mean, when we pray around a porno joint on a consistent basis-- we never talk to the people.
我的意思是，当我们持续围绕色情场所祈祷时，我们从不与人们交谈。
We don't harass people or anything like that, but we see a dip in their business.
我们不会骚扰别人或类似的事情，但我们看到他们的生意有所下滑。
We have a team of men that specifically target adult bookstores, and they have hundreds of stories of men pulling in to the adult bookstore and parking, and there they are praying for them.
我们有一个专门针对成人书店的男人团队，他们有数百个男人把车开进成人书店和停车场的故事，他们在那里为他们祈祷。
You can imagine a group of guys sitting there with their baseball caps and their T-shirts praying, "Father, in the name of Jesus, remind these guys of their mothers.
你可以想象一群戴着棒球帽、穿着T恤的人坐在那里祈祷：“父亲，奉耶稣的名，让这些人想起他们的母亲。
Lord, help them think of any scripture they've ever been exposed to in all their life.
主啊，请帮助他们想想他们一生中所接触过的任何经文。
Cause them to be in love with their wives." They have hundreds of stories of men getting out of their cars, walking halfway to the door of the adult bookstore and pausing, going back, and getting in their car and driving off.
让他们爱上自己的妻子。”他们有数百个故事，讲述男人下车，走到成人书店门口的一半，停下来，返回，上车开走。
Business is good, so I'm sure they're not hitting everybody.
生意很好，所以我确信他们不会打击所有人。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
The First Amendment is an adult bookstore and novelty shop about eight miles down the road from New Life on Filmore Avenue.
第一修正案是一家成人书店和新奇商店，距离 New Life 沿路约 8 英里，位于菲尔莫尔大道 (Filmore Avenue)。
It's one of the places New Life targeted, so I went down there to see how business was going.
这是新生活的目标地点之一，所以我去那里看看生意怎么样。
The store's clerk, Dan, has worked at the First Amendment for four years and hasn't noticed a drop in business.
这家店的店员丹在第一修正案工作了四年，并没有注意到生意下降。
What do you mean?
你是什么意思？
As in anything that's like empirical evidence that this is working?
就像任何类似的经验证据表明这是有效的？
Is that what you're saying?
你是这么说的吗？
I mean, I guess that's part of what I'm saying.
我的意思是，我想这就是我所说的一部分。
Yeah, because I haven't noticed it, you know?
是的，因为我没有注意到，你知道吗？
I still get the same amount of people and the sales are still the same, you know?
我的人数仍然相同，销售额也仍然相同，你知道吗？
That kind of thing.
那种事。
I've noticed a drop since our sign's been out, you know?
自从我们的标牌消失后，我注意到房价有所下降，你知道吗？
So maybe they prayed for my sign to be out.
所以也许他们祈祷我的标语能够消失。
Maybe that's their answer to it.
也许这就是他们的答案。
I mean, you know, that may have happened but, other than that, no.
我的意思是，你知道，这可能发生了，但除此之外，没有。
Dan doesn't seem bothered by the idea of people sitting in his parking lot praying for his business to drop off the face of the earth.
丹似乎并不介意人们坐在他的停车场祈祷他的生意从地球上消失。
I mean, they have a right to be there as long as they're not disturbing people.
我的意思是，只要不打扰别人，他们就有权在那里。
I mean, it would be different if they were holding people up from coming in.
我的意思是，如果他们阻止人们进来，情况就会有所不同。
But, if all they're doing is praying, then that's very passive-aggressive kind of stuff, you know?
但是，如果他们所做的只是祈祷，那么这就是非常消极攻击的事情，你知道吗？
It's not like it's a big deal.
这不是什么大不了的事。
Right.
正确的。
I mean, according to them, they do stop people from--
我的意思是，根据他们的说法，他们确实阻止人们——
Well, spiritually, I mean, you know, they can believe whatever they want.
嗯，在精神上，我的意思是，你知道，他们可以相信任何他们想要的东西。
And so they can be out there and it doesn't bother me, and it doesn't offend me.
所以他们可以在外面，这不会打扰我，也不会冒犯我。
They can judge me.
他们可以评判我。
They don't know me.
他们不认识我。
That's OK, I'm used to that.
没关系，我已经习惯了。
Most religions do judge people without really knowing them.
大多数宗教确实在不真正了解人们的情况下评判他们。
Dan says he prays himself, so he understands the impulse.
丹说他自己祈祷，所以他理解这种冲动。
I asked him if he's noticed any change in the spiritual climate of Colorado Springs what with the prayer shield and the prayer walks, and he tells me no. Most of the changes he's noticed aren't spiritual.
我问他是否注意到科罗拉多斯普林斯的精神氛围因祈祷盾和祈祷行走而发生任何变化，他告诉我没有。他注意到的大多数变化都不是精神上的。
The town has gotten bigger, it's more expensive, and people aren't as friendly as they used to be.
小镇变得更大了，物价更高了，人们也不像以前那么友好了。
Over on the far side of the store next to the videos I meet a customer, Malcolm.
在商店的另一边，视频旁边，我遇到了一位顾客，马尔科姆。
Prayer warrior, that's what I was before I came out, yes.
祷告勇士，这就是我出来之前的样子，是的。
It turns out that I don't need to explain much about the spiritual war to Malcolm.
事实证明，我不需要向马尔科姆解释太多关于精神战争的事情。
The fact is, he would probably do a better job explaining it to me.
事实上，他可能会更好地向我解释这一点。
Malcolm was a full-fledged spiritual warrior until he came out as gay.
马尔科姆是一位成熟的精神战士，直到他出柜为同性恋。
He was even a member of the New Life Church.
他甚至是新生命教会的成员。
Here's a bit of irony.
这里有一点讽刺。
The first time Malcolm ever came to the First Amendment bookstore was on his way home from a singles meeting at New Life.
马尔科姆第一次来到第一修正案书店是在他参加完新生活单身聚会回家的路上。
He'd been struggling with being gay and being Christian, and the singles meeting was just the last straw.
他一直在同性恋和基督徒之间挣扎，而单身聚会只是最后一根稻草。
At this singles meeting, two of my friends embraced in a Christian hug, very Christian hug, and then jumped away from each other and said, "Fag." And that is when I became disheartened, if you will.
在这次单身聚会上，我的两个朋友以基督徒的拥抱方式拥抱，非常基督徒的拥抱，然后彼此跳开并说：“基佬。”如果你愿意的话，那就是我变得沮丧的时候。
So he walked to the First Amendment bookstore and decided to come out.
于是他走到第一修正案书店，决定出来。
The sad thing about all this is that Malcolm badly misses his life as a Christian.
这一切的可悲之处在于，马尔科姆非常怀念他作为基督徒的生活。
He loved the church and loved being a spiritual warrior.
他热爱教会，热爱成为一名精神战士。
Even now, several years after coming out, Malcolm would probably be happier sitting in the car outside praying than standing in the porn store talking to me.
即使是现在，出柜几年后，马尔科姆可能会更高兴坐在外面的车里祈祷，而不是站在色情商店里和我说话。
I guess I have to admit I like the Christian environment more.
我想我不得不承认我更喜欢基督教的环境。
There seems to be more spiritual love going on than this environment where there's only physical love.
与这个只有肉体之爱的环境相比，似乎有更多的精神之爱。
So you basically agree with them that this is demonic?
所以你基本上同意他们的观点，认为这是恶魔？
Yes, [LAUGHS] paradox.
是的，[笑]悖论。
Alix Spiegel Yeah, it is a paradox.
阿利克斯·斯皮格尔 是的，这是一个悖论。
That must be--
那一定是——
I am really torn, yes, between what I was brought up with and what I'm doing now.
是的，我真的在我的成长经历和我现在所做的事情之间左右为难。
Do you ever have a fantasy that they would be able to pray enough to change you?
你是否曾经幻想过他们能够通过祈祷来改变你？
I mean, was that a fancy that you used to have?
我的意思是，这是你以前的幻想吗？
Yea, and, if by some chance I do wake up one morning and I'm no longer gay, I will believe that there were Christians intervening.
是的，而且，如果有机会我有一天早上醒来，我不再是同性恋，我会相信有基督徒介入。
At the end of the interview I ask him if I've left anything out, do you want to say anything else?
采访结束时我问他我是否遗漏了什么，你还有什么要说的吗？
To you, personally, and to anyone else, I would not turn Jesus away just because of what the Christians do.
对你个人和其他任何人来说，我不会仅仅因为基督徒的所作所为而拒绝耶稣。
Jesus isn't the bad guy.
耶稣不是坏人。
Can I just point out that you're sitting in the middle of a porno store, and you're trying to save me?
我可以指出你正坐在一家色情商店中间，并且想救我吗？
Yeah, that's crazy.
是的，那太疯狂了。
I know.
我知道。
Alix Spiegel Joseph calls me early in the morning, around 6 o'clock, to check in and see how I'm doing.
阿利克斯·斯皮格尔·约瑟夫 (Alix Spiegel Joseph) 清晨 6 点左右打电话给我，询问我的情况。
Thanks to the power of prayer, I am, of course, awake.
感谢祈祷的力量，我当然醒了。
We talk for a while.
我们聊了一会儿。
I tell him about the guy in the porno store, how tragic he seemed.
我告诉他色情商店里那个人的事，他看起来有多么悲惨。
We argue about homosexuality, and the argument runs pretty much as you would expect.
我们争论同性恋，争论的结果和你想象的差不多。
I'm for the homos.
我是为了同性恋。
Joseph thinks that they can't be gay and saved at the same time.
约瑟夫认为他们不可能同时成为同性恋和得救。
When I tell him that I could never be part of a religion that doesn't accept homosexuals, he's shocked, really shocked and disappointed by my tolerance.
当我告诉他我永远不能成为一个不接受同性恋的宗教的一部分时，他对我的宽容感到震惊，真的感到震惊和失望。
But Joseph doesn't give up on me.
但约瑟夫并没有放弃我。
He tells me that, one day, when I'm a Christian and we're best friends, we'll look back on all of this and laugh.
他告诉我，有一天，当我成为一名基督徒并且我们成为最好的朋友时，我们会在回顾这一切时开怀大笑。
And there's something about the way that he says this that makes me feel deep inside that, yes, of course, he's right.
他说话的方式让我内心深处感到，是的，当然，他是对的。
One day, went I'm a Christian and we're best friends, we will look back on all of this and laugh.
有一天，我成为一名基督徒，我们是最好的朋友，当我们回顾这一切时，我们会开怀大笑。
I don't tell Joseph that I think this.
我没有告诉约瑟夫我是这么想的。
After we hang up, I don't know what to do, so I call my boss, Ira, in Chicago.
挂断电话后，我不知道该怎么办，所以我打电话给我在芝加哥的老板艾拉。
It's 7:30 Chicago time on a Sunday morning, and I wake him up.
现在是芝加哥时间周日早上 7:30，我叫醒了他。
I want him to put this experience in perspective for me, tell me that he's been through the same thing.
我希望他能帮我正确看待这段经历，告诉我他也经历过同样的事情。
He tries, in various ways to be reassuring and finally tells me that he believes that, ultimately, my life is with the secular world and the show in Chicago.
他试图通过各种方式让我放心，最后告诉我，他相信，最终，我的生活是与世俗世界和芝加哥的演出在一起的。
One day, he says, when I'm back in Chicago hard at work at my digital editing station, we'll look back on all of this and laugh.
他说，有一天，当我回到芝加哥在我的数字编辑站努力工作时，我们会回顾这一切并大笑。
Ira is much less convincing than Joseph.
艾拉的说服力远不如约瑟夫。
We kind of go into Satan's turf.
我们有点进入了撒旦的地盘。
Some people enjoy that more than others.
有些人比其他人更喜欢这一点。
Some people really like to spend more time praying in lighter areas and not so spiritually dangerous areas.
有些人确实喜欢花更多的时间在光线明亮的地方祈祷，而不是在灵性上不太危险的地方。
And how about you?
那你呢？
Jared Well, I like the dark stuff.
贾里德 好吧，我喜欢黑暗的东西。
I'm called to walk in dark places.
我被召唤去黑暗的地方行走。
My attraction to becoming a Christian suffers a setback when I go out with a prayer walker named Jared, who does hard-core spiritual warfare.
当我和一位名叫贾里德的祷告行者出去时，我对成为基督徒的兴趣受到了挫折，他从事核心的属灵争战。
He not only wanders around blessing his neighbors but actively tries to fight demons.
他不仅四处游走祝福邻居，还积极尝试与恶魔战斗。
Jared's a Harvard grad in his late 20s.
贾里德是哈佛毕业生，二十多岁。
And I'm told by several people that his prayer walks are intense, lots of frenzied spiritual confrontation.
有几个人告诉我，他的祈祷之旅非常激烈，有很多疯狂的精神对抗。
Jared seems proud of this and, as we walk, he explains that sophisticated prayer walkers don't need to rely on physical cues to know if the forces of Satan are present.
贾里德似乎对此感到自豪，当我们行走时，他解释说，经验丰富的祈祷步行者不需要依靠身体暗示来知道撒旦的力量是否存在。
The interesting thing is that, if you blindfolded Jen or I or someone who had developed their gifts of discernment, and took us to a place, and we couldn't see what was going on, and even if I couldn't hear what was going on, spiritually, I could receive discernment on the place.
有趣的是，如果你蒙住珍或我的眼睛，或者某个发展了洞察力天赋的人，带我们到一个地方，我们看不到发生了什么，即使我听不到发生了什么，在精神上，我也能在那个地方获得洞察力。
Jared, Jennifer Phillips, their friend, Sarah and I go to confront the forces of darkness on a particularly peaceful summer afternoon.
贾里德、詹妮弗·菲利普斯、他们的朋友、莎拉和我在一个特别宁静的夏日午后去对抗黑暗势力。
And it's hard, at least for me, to sense the presence of anything sinister.
至少对我来说，很难感觉到任何邪恶的存在。
We walk in a park past some skateboarders down a couple blocks to a school.
我们在公园里散步，经过一些滑板爱好者，沿着几个街区来到了一所学校。
And then, as we walk around the back of the school, Jennifer, Sarah, and Jared come up short.
然后，当我们在学校后面走来走去时，詹妮弗、莎拉和贾里德来了。
I wonder-- something's here.
我想知道——这里有什么东西。
Jennifer Phillips Yeah.
詹妮弗·菲利普斯 是的。
Tell us.
告诉我们。
Jared So, just in walking into this area, it's different.
Jared 所以，只要走进这个区域，情况就不同了。
We're in the back of the school standing under a high brick archway in the middle of the school's courtyard.
我们在学校后面，站在学校庭院中间一座高高的砖砌拱门下。
There are benches placed to form a circle.
长凳围成一圈。
And, for a moment, I stand there wondering what this place witnessed.
有那么一刻，我站在那里想知道这个地方见证了什么。
A gang rape?
轮奸？
A murder?
谋杀？
Sarah pipes up.
莎拉开口了。
She says she went to this school.
她说她就读于这所学校。
She knows what happened in the court yard.
她知道院子里发生的事情。
It's where all the drama people used to hang out during lunchtime.
这是所有戏剧人们在午餐时间闲逛的地方。
"They're liberals," Jennifer says.
“他们是自由主义者，”詹妮弗说。
Then she and Sarah get self-conscious, like they're afraid they've offended me seeing as I'm a member of the media and a Jew.
然后她和莎拉变得不自在，好像他们害怕冒犯了我，因为我是媒体成员和犹太人。
Not so much liberal.
没有那么自由。
I don't want to say that.
我不想这么说。
Well, what is the word then?
嗯，那么这个词是什么？
It's almost like-- well?
这几乎就像——嗯？
Accepting of ideas?
接受想法？
Jennifer Phillips Yes.
詹妮弗·菲利普斯 是的。
More open to different interpretations of things.
对事物的不同解释更加开放。
It sounds like people that come to this place are more open to other religions, different views of morality, a bunch of different things, more likely to try things.
听起来来到这个地方的人们对其他宗教、不同的道德观、一堆不同的事物更加开放，更有可能尝试新事物。
And, because that they're more likely to try things, people, generally in drama or the arts, are more open to different ideas.
而且，因为人们更有可能尝试新事物，所以通常在戏剧或艺术领域，人们对不同的想法更加开放。
Often those people not only are they more open to try things but they actually do try things.
通常，这些人不仅更愿意尝试事物，而且实际上确实在尝试。
They move to the center of the circle, close their eyes, and pray.
他们走到圆圈的中心，闭上眼睛，祈祷。
Dear Lord God, we come to you, Lord God, realizing, Lord God, that there's something different about this place, Lord God.
亲爱的主上帝，我们来到你身边，主上帝，意识到这个地方有些不同，主上帝。
That, in the spirit realm, Lord God, there's a darkness over this place, Lord God.
在灵界，主神啊，这个地方笼罩着黑暗，主神。
Lord, we come to you, Lord God, and we bind any deceiving spirits, Lord God, that may be in operation here, Lord God.
主啊，我们来到你这里，主神，我们捆绑任何可能在这里运作的欺骗之灵，主神。
Any demonic powers or forces, Lord God, that lead people away from truth, Lord God, if they lead them into false religions, Lord God, or ways of looking at morality, Lord God, that are not consistent with your word or anything, Lord God, we ask, Lord God, that you would bind those powers, Lord God, that you would bind them, Lord God, with chains of iron, Lord God.
任何恶魔的力量或力量，主上帝，引导人们远离真理，主上帝，如果他们引导他们进入错误的宗教，主上帝，或看待道德的方式，主上帝，与你的话语或任何东西不一致，主上帝，我们请求你束缚这些力量，主上帝，你会用铁链束缚他们，主上帝，主上帝。
The next time I talk to Joseph on the phone I tell him about my prayer walk with Jared.
下次我和约瑟通电话时，我告诉他我和杰瑞德同行祷告的事。
I say that I know it'll sound ridiculous to a secular audience, but I have to use it anyway.
我说我知道这对于世俗观众来说听起来很荒谬，但无论如何我都必须使用它。
He doesn't seem to care.
他似乎并不关心。
Joseph never expected to be understood in the media.
约瑟夫从未想过自己会被媒体所理解。
He's much more concerned with me and my salvation.
他更关心我和我的救赎。
And it's hard not to find that touching.
很难不觉得这令人感动。
He invites me to come and hear him pastor.
他邀请我来听他的牧师讲话。
He's speaking at the Solid Rock Christian Church.
他在坚石基督教教堂发表讲话。
Solid Rock is a poor black church in a strip mall in Southern Colorado Springs, just two rooms in a space that looks like it might once have been a large Kinko's or a Mail Boxes Etc.
Solid Rock 是一座贫穷的黑人教堂，位于南科罗拉多斯普林斯的一个露天购物中心内，只有两个房间，看起来可能曾经是一个大型 Kinko's 或邮箱等。
The group prays together, then Joseph begins his sermon.
小组一起祈祷，然后约瑟夫开始讲道。
It's about reaching out to the lost.
这是关于向迷失的人伸出援手。
He asks how many people in the church have more than one or two non-Christian friends.
他询问教会中有多少人拥有超过一两个非基督徒朋友。
And, in a room of about 35 adults, maybe five tentatively raise their hands.
而且，在一个大约有 35 个成年人的房间里，也许有五个人试探性地举起了手。
Then he tells them that he does not even have a single non-Christian friend.
然后他告诉他们，他甚至没有一个非基督徒朋友。
"This is wrong," he says.
“这是错误的，”他说。
"It's not enough to live justly within the four walls of the church.
“仅仅在教堂的四墙之内公正地生活是不够的。
Christians must find a way to make themselves understandable to non-Christians."
基督徒必须找到一种方法让非基督徒能够理解自己。”
He says this issue has come up a number of times in the past couple of days.
他说，这个问题在过去几天里已经多次出现。
And, as he says this, he stands in front of me.
当他说这句话的时候，他就站在我面前。
He says my name and introduces me.
他说出我的名字并介绍我。
And then he starts to talk about the conversations we've been having.
然后他开始谈论我们一直以来的谈话。
He talks about our conversations and then talks about something else.
他谈论我们的谈话，然后谈论其他事情。
And then talks in a general way about our conversations and then talks about something else.
然后一般性地谈论我们的谈话，然后谈论其他的事情。
And, at one point, after saying that Christians need to help those in need, he comes and stands in front of me and says, "I love you, Alix." And the nice woman sitting beside me puts her arm over my shoulder, smiles, and passes me a Kleenex.
有一次，在说基督徒需要帮助那些有需要的人之后，他走到我面前说：“我爱你，阿利克斯。”坐在我旁边的那位好心的女士将手臂搭在我的肩膀上，微笑着，递给我一张纸巾。
[SINGING] At the end of his sermon, the group begins to sing.
[唱歌] 在他的布道结束后，大家开始唱歌。
No band, just people singing without accompaniment.
没有乐队，只有人们在没有伴奏的情况下唱歌。
And Joseph comes over and asks if he can pray with me.
约瑟夫过来问他是否可以和我一起祈祷。
At first, I shake my head no. I'm not sure why, but the thought literally terrifies me.
起初，我摇头说不。我不知道为什么，但这个想法确实让我感到害怕。
But he asks again, and I can't think of a rational reason not to do it.
但他又问了，我想不出有什么合理的理由不这样做。
After all, he's only asking me to pray.
毕竟，他只是要求我祈祷。
So I put down my tape player.
于是我放下了录音机。
And he takes my hands in his, and bows his head, and begins to pray.
他握住我的手，低下头，开始祈祷。
And, if you paid me money, I couldn't tell you a word he said.
而且，如果你付了我钱，我就不能告诉你他说的任何一句话。
I remember the acute sense that I was in a strip mall church in the city, 1,000 miles away from my home, and that the man standing in front of me badly wanted me to become a Christian, was offering me love and comfort if I would only say yes.
我记得当时我在离家 1000 英里的城市一座购物中心教堂里，站在我面前的那个人非常希望我成为一名基督徒，只要我答应，他就会给我爱和安慰。
It seemed clear that the people around me were already experiencing the relief that was being extended to me, and that, if I were to act rationally, I would just cross over and join them.
很明显，我周围的人已经感受到了对我的宽慰，如果我理性行事，我就会跨过去加入他们。
But, somehow, I couldn't act rationally.
但不知何故，我无法理性行事。
I couldn't become a Christian.
我无法成为基督徒。
Most of all, I remember the sheer effort of trying to keep my composure.
最重要的是，我记得我为了保持镇定而付出的巨大努力。
When we had finished, I sat down and watched as Joseph approached a woman in the third row.
当我们结束后，我坐下来，看着约瑟夫走近第三排的一位女士。
She was singing.
她在唱歌。
And he laid his hands on her shoulders, gently, right next to her neck.
他把手放在她的肩膀上，轻轻地，就在她的脖子旁边。
And, all of a sudden, she just started screaming long, wailing screams.
突然间，她开始发出长长的哀嚎。
I felt like I understood why she was screaming.
我觉得我明白她为什么尖叫。
And I don't know if it's God, and I don't know if it's not, but I don't think it matters.
我不知道这是否是上帝，我也不知道它是否不是，但我认为这并不重要。
[MUSIC PLAYING - "BUSLOAD OF FAITH" BY LOU REED]
[音乐播放 - LOU REED 的《信仰巴士》]
Act Two, Kings.
第二幕，国王。
I am damned.
我该死。
I am going to Hell.
我要去地狱了。
This is what my fundamentalist friends tell me.
这是我的原教旨主义朋友告诉我的。
They say, no matter what I do in this life, no matter what good works or virtue I ever concoct for myself, I am condemned because I, I and my entire race, the Jews, have not accepted Jesus.
他们说，无论我今生做什么，无论我为自己编造什么善行或美德，我都会受到谴责，因为我、我和我的整个种族，犹太人，还没有接受耶稣。
But, in these moments before I and maybe you burn forever, let's hear this next story.
但是，在我和也许你永远燃烧之前的这些时刻，让我们听听下一个故事。
It is from Scott Carrier in Salt Lake City about the damned and the saved.
这是来自盐湖城的斯科特·卡里尔（Scott Carrier）关于被诅咒者和被拯救者的故事。
At a particularly low point in my career as a responsible husband and father I worked as a carpenter's assistant for my younger brother, a contractor specializing in home renovation.
在我作为一个负责任的丈夫和父亲的职业生涯的最低谷时，我为我的弟弟（一名专门从事房屋装修的承包商）担任木匠助理。
We built additions and garages, finished basements, tore out bathrooms and installed new ones.
我们建造了附加设施和车库，完成了地下室，拆除了浴室并安装了新浴室。
He paid me $10 an hour, which I consider to be generous.
他每小时付给我 10 美元，我认为这很慷慨。
At that time, good carpenters, men who could build an entire house from start to finish, single-handed, were making $12.50.
当时，优秀的木匠，即能够单枪匹马从头到尾建造一整栋房子的人，年薪为 12.50 美元。
And I was only an assistant, a gopher, the guy who digs and carries and cleans up.
而我只是一个助手，一只地鼠，负责挖掘、搬运和清理的人。
My brother was maybe 32 at that time and had worked as a carpenter since he'd graduated from college.
我哥哥当时大概32岁，大学毕业后就一直做木匠。
He'd been a good student and was offered a graduate fellowship.
他是一名好学生，并获得了研究生奖学金。
But he dropped it, and no one in my family really understood why.
但他把它扔掉了，我家里没有人真正明白为什么。
He went to work for other people and, eventually, got his own license and enough equipment to start getting his own contracts.
他为其他人工作，最终获得了自己的执照和足够的设备来开始签订自己的合同。
He had a lot of work, usually two jobs going at once and three or four employees, but he wasn't making much money because he had a tendency to underestimate the bids.
他的工作量很大，通常同时做两份工作，雇用三到四名员工，但他赚的钱并不多，因为他倾向于低估出价。
I think, sometimes, I ended up making more money on a job than he did, but he seemed to like it anyway.
我想，有时，我在一份工作上赚的钱比他多，但他似乎还是喜欢它。
I, however, was almost always upset, not because the work was hard but because I just resented working on another man's house, a man with enough money to pay for a $40,000 bathroom, a man who decides he wants a bigger garage for his new motorcycle, a man who doesn't want to dig up his on sewer pipe.
然而，我几乎总是心烦意乱，不是因为工作很辛苦，而是因为我只是讨厌在另一个人的房子上工作，一个有足够的钱买四万美元浴室的人，一个决定为他的新摩托车买一个更大的车库的人，一个不想挖下水管的人。
The work forced me to admit that I was a slave, that somewhere in life I'd made a big mistake.
这项工作迫使我承认我是一个奴隶，承认我在生活中的某个地方犯了一个大错误。
Also, I had a problem with the other carpenters my brother hired.
另外，我和我哥哥雇用的其他木匠之间也存在问题。
Consider the following scenarios.
考虑以下场景。
I'm shingling a garage roof with a lead carpenter named Dave.
我正在和一位名叫戴夫的首席木匠一起铺设车库屋顶。
It's Dave's first day on the job and we're both up there pounding shingles and talking about Star Trek.
这是戴夫上班的第一天，我们都在上面敲打木瓦，谈论《星际迷航》。
Dave's a big Star Trek fan.
戴夫是《星际迷航》的忠实粉丝。
He's seen all of the old and new shows, and even has floor plans of the Enterprise, which he's committed to memory.
他看过所有新旧节目，甚至还掌握了企业号的平面图，并牢记在心。
Dave tells me about the insidious Borg, a race of cyborgs with a social conscience of ants.
戴夫向我讲述了阴险的博格人，这是一个具有蚂蚁社会良知的机器人种族。
Dave knows why the Klingons are now part of the Federation.
戴夫知道为什么克林贡人现在成为联邦的一部分。
And Dave has decided just how he would spend his time on the holodeck, a room on the Enterprise where crew members go to live out their fantasies in holographic reality.
戴夫已经决定了如何在全息甲板上度过自己的时间，全息甲板是企业号上的一个房间，船员们可以在全息现实中实现他们的幻想。
It's a harmless conversation that seems to diminish the tedium of the work.
这是一次无害的谈话，似乎减少了工作的乏味。
But then, after a brief lull, Dave stops pounding shingles and asks me in a very serious tone, "Scott, have you accepted Christ as your personal savior?" It turns out Dave is a fundamentalist Christian with a strong desire to proselytize.
但在短暂的平静之后，戴夫停止了敲打木瓦的动作，并以非常严肃的语气问我：“斯科特，你接受基督作为你个人的救主了吗？”事实证明，戴夫是一名原教旨主义基督徒，有着强烈的传教欲望。
That evening, after work, I ask my brother if, maybe, he doesn't need a foundation dug or some fiberglass insulation stapled into place, anything other than working with Dave.
那天晚上，下班后，我问我哥哥，除了和戴夫一起工作之外，他是否不需要挖地基或钉上一些玻璃纤维绝缘材料。
He looks at the ground, and kicks the dirt, and says he promised the owner that the roof would be done last week.
他看着地面，踢了踢泥土，并说他向业主保证屋顶将在上周完成。
After Dave, there's Steve, who tells me about how, in Idaho, they're implanting silicon chips in baby's ankles that will forever identify them as part of Satan's army.
戴夫之后，史蒂夫告诉我，在爱达荷州，他们如何将硅芯片植入婴儿的脚踝，这将永远表明他们是撒旦军队的一部分。
After Steve, there's another Dave, who, when he's alone, practices out loud shouting his sermons exposing the evils of the Trilateralist Commission.
在史蒂夫之后，还有另一个戴夫，当他独自一人时，他练习大声喊叫，揭露三边主义委员会的罪恶。
And, after that Dave, there's John, who my brother hires as a grant to help me out.
在戴夫之后，还有约翰，我哥哥聘请他作为赠款来帮助我。
John's just arrived from Boston where he drove a cab for 20 years up until the Kennedys ran him out of town.
约翰刚从波士顿来到这里，他在那里开了 20 年出租车，直到肯尼迪家族把他赶出了城。
He says Ted Kennedy was out to get him.
他说特德·肯尼迪是来抓他的。
He says Ted Kennedy has ruined his life.
他说特德·肯尼迪毁了他的生活。
And he tells me the amazing story of how, while hitchhiking west through Kansas, he became so depressed he decided to throw himself in front of a semi truck barreling down I-70.
他向我讲述了一个令人惊奇的故事：当他搭便车向西穿过堪萨斯州时，他变得非常沮丧，决定跳到一辆沿着 70 号州际公路疾驰而过的半挂卡车前。
But then, suddenly, from out of nowhere, he saw Jesus Christ standing 40 feet tall on the side of the road.
但突然间，他不知从哪里冒出来，看到耶稣基督站在路边，高 40 英尺。
Jesus spoke to him.
耶稣对他说话。
He said, "John, these trucks are my roller skates."
他说：“约翰，这些卡车是我的溜冰鞋。”
You know, when you see a thing happen once, it's an accident.
你知道，当你看到一件事发生一次时，它就是一个意外。
When you see it happen twice, it's a coincidence.
当你看到这样的事情发生两次时，那就是巧合了。
And, when you see it happen three or more times, it's a science, and sciences demand theories.
而且，当你看到它发生三次或多次时，它就是一门科学，而科学需要理论。
My first theory was that there might be some sort of connection between Jesus and these men because they were all carpenters.
我的第一个理论是，耶稣和这些人之间可能存在某种联系，因为他们都是木匠。
And so I would ask my workmates questions like, "Was Jesus a framer or a finish man?
所以我会问我的同事这样的问题：“耶稣是一个策划者还是一个终结者？
I mean, it makes a difference, don't you think" "Was he the lead carpenter or was he just a laborer?" Or I'd make stuff up like, "I heard that when Jesus built furniture he never used glue in the joints, that he'd just touch them and they'd hold forever."
我的意思是，这很重要，你不觉得吗？”“他是首席木匠还是只是一个工人？”或者我会编造这样的东西，“我听说当耶稣建造家具时，他从不在接缝处使用胶水，他只需触摸它们，它们就会永远固定。”
But these men were not interested in philosophy or metaphysics.
但这些人对哲学或形而上学不感兴趣。
And they were not even interested, it turned out, in stories about Jesus or his teachings of compassion.
事实证明，他们甚至对耶稣的故事或他的慈悲教义不感兴趣。
Far from it.
远非如此。
They were all into the book of Revelations.
他们都读过《启示录》。
They were all religious for reasons of revenge.
他们都是出于复仇的原因而信奉宗教。
All had had hard lives filled with injustices and inequities.
所有人都过着充满不公正和不平等的艰苦生活。
All had resigned themselves to a life over which they'd lost control.
所有人都已经屈服于他们失去控制的生活。
Their one hope was that, when they die, when everybody dies, everybody will get what they deserve.
他们唯一的希望是，当他们死去时，当每个人都死去时，每个人都会得到他们应得的。
The righteous will be happy forever while the bastards, the assholes, the wicked and corrupt and the filth will burn in Hell.
正义者将永远幸福，而私生子、混蛋、邪恶者、腐败者和污秽者将在地狱中燃烧。
So I changed my theory and decided that religion is something people use, not only because they want to connect with a sense of their spiritual existence, they also use it to bring a sense of justice to their social existence.
所以我改变了我的理论，认为宗教是人们使用的东西，不仅因为他们想要与他们的精神存在感联系起来，而且他们还用它给他们的社会存在带来正义感。
Just wait until Jesus comes back.
只要等到耶稣再来。
Just wait until the apocalypse.
就等末日来临吧。
I thought, at first, that I was different, even superior to these guys.
起初我以为我与众不同，甚至比这些人更优秀。
But, at some point, I started to realize that we all had the same basic problem.
但是，在某些时候，我开始意识到我们都有相同的基本问题。
We were all slaves, unhappy slaves, and it wasn't a pretty thing to see.
我们都是奴隶，不幸的奴隶，这可不是什么好事。
I went on like this for more than a year, angry and depressed and unable or unwilling to do anything else.
我就这样持续了一年多，愤怒、沮丧，无法或不愿意做任何其他事情。
And then, one day in the middle of winter, everything came to a head and sort of exploded.
然后，在隆冬的一天，一切都达到了顶峰，有点爆炸了。
We were building a three-story addition onto the back of an architect's home.
我们正在一位建筑师住宅的后面建造一栋三层楼的附加建筑。
He'd designed it.
他设计的。
And we'd framed the thing.
我们把这件事框起来了。
And we're starting to sheet the roof when a building inspector came by and said we'd screwed up, made a mistake down at the level of the foundation.
当我们开始铺屋顶时，一位建筑检查员走过来，说我们搞砸了，在地基水平上犯了一个错误。
It was a small thing, a trivial thing.
这是一件小事，一件微不足道的事。
And I can't even remember now, specifically, what the problem was.
现在我什至不记得具体是什么问题了。
And then, it wasn't like we'd done anything wrong.
然后，我们并没有做错什么。
We'd built it like it was drawn in the plans.
我们按照计划中绘制的那样建造了它。
And the architect was happy with our work, but it just didn't quite match the city's building code.
建筑师对我们的工作很满意，但它与城市的建筑规范不太相符。
And the inspector was being a hard-ass.
而且检查员是个强硬的人。
He said we'd have to fix it, which meant, in effect, we'd have to tear the whole thing down and start over.
他说我们必须解决这个问题，这实际上意味着我们必须把整个事情拆掉并重新开始。
I was standing there in the mud with my brother and the inspector.
我和我的兄弟以及督察站在泥里。
And it was snowing, and I was wet and cold.
下雪了，我又湿又冷。
And I couldn't believe what I was hearing.
我简直不敢相信我所听到的。
My brother just listened and didn't argue or protest.
哥哥只是听着，没有争辩，也没有抗议。
And the inspector showed no sign of regret or remorse.
检查员没有表现出任何后悔或悔恨的迹象。
He filled out a form, signed it, gave it to my brother and left.
他填写了一份表格，签了名，交给了我哥哥，然后就离开了。
I was furious.
我很生气。
I took off my belt and threw it across the yard, nails and screws and tools scattering and disappearing in the snow.
我解下皮带，把它扔到院子的另一边，钉子、螺丝和工具散落在雪地里，消失了。
John stopped work and then came over.
约翰停下了工作，然后过来了。
And I told him we were going to have to take everything down.
我告诉他我们必须把一切都拆掉。
And he started in about the Kennedys, how he knew a lawyer in Boston, how we could sue the inspector for everything he was worth.
他从肯尼迪家族开始，他如何认识波士顿的一名律师，我们如何起诉这位检查员的一切价值。
I told him to shut the [BLEEP] up and asked my brother what we're going to do.
我告诉他关闭[BLEEP]并问我兄弟我们要做什么。
He was standing inside, on the bottom floor, looking out through an empty window.
他站在里面，在底层，透过一扇空荡荡的窗户往外看。
And he said, "Mark your time cards for a full day, and let's clean up and go home early." If he was mad, I couldn't see it.
他说：“在你的时间卡上标记一整天的时间，让我们收拾干净并早点回家。”如果他生气了，我就看不出来。
If he was at the point of tears, I couldn't feel it.
如果他流泪了，我感觉不到。
We put everything away.
我们把所有东西都收了起来。
And, just as I was leaving, he said, "Thanks.
当我离开时，他说：“谢谢。
It'll be all right.
会没事的。
I'll go down to the City Hall tomorrow and talk to some people."
明天我会去市政厅和一些人谈谈。”
I got in my car and loaded my pipe and smoked a bowl and drove away.
我钻进车里，装上烟斗，抽了一碗烟，然后开走了。
It was still snowing and cars were sliding into the gutters and getting stuck.
雪还在下，汽车滑进排水沟并被卡住。
And I was trying to figure out why I was so pissed when my brother seemed unfazed.
我试图弄清楚为什么我如此生气，而我的兄弟似乎并不担心。
After all, he'd have to pay us to do the extra work, money that would come out of his pocket, not ours.
毕竟，他必须付钱给我们做额外的工作，这些钱是从他的口袋里掏出来的，而不是我们的。
Then I realized that it was his life, that he'd chosen to do this and he didn't hate it.
然后我意识到这是他的生活，他选择这样做并且他并不讨厌它。
He didn't hate anything about it.
他对此并不讨厌。
He was my younger brother.
他是我的弟弟。
And I'd never really gotten along with him all that well because I have an older brother whom I've always looked up to and loved without question or reason ever since I can remember.
我从来没有和他相处得那么好，因为我有一个哥哥，从我记事起，我就一直毫无疑问、毫无理由地尊敬和爱着他。
My little brother was, in my opinion, an intrusion, an unwanted and unneeded addition to the family.
在我看来，我的弟弟是一个闯入者，是家庭中不受欢迎和不需要的成员。
When I was two and my mother brought him home from the hospital, I threw a bar of soap at him.
当我两岁的时候，我妈妈把他从医院带回家，我向他扔了一块肥皂。
The next day, I threw a garbage can at him, and it never got much better.
第二天，我向他扔了一个垃圾桶，情况再也没有好转。
But then he hired me when I needed a job.
但后来当我需要工作时他雇用了我。
And, like I said, he paid me more than I was worth, and he treated me with respect even though he could have rubbed it in.
而且，就像我说的，他付给我的钱超出了我的价值，他尊重我，尽管他本可以让我明白这一点。
And now I was learning something from him.
现在我从他身上学到了一些东西。
He never went to church.
他从不去教堂。
I never once heard him speak about God, but he had more grace and compassion than all of the Christians he'd hired put together.
我从来没有听他谈论过上帝，但他的恩典和同情心比他雇用的所有基督徒加起来还要多。
Our program was produced today by Alix Spiegel and myself with Nancy Updike and Julie Snyder.
今天我们的节目由阿利克斯·斯皮格尔、我、南希·厄普代克和朱莉·斯奈德共同制作。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
[FUNDING CREDITS] WBEZ management oversight by Torey Malatia who knows how public radio could really raise some money.
[资金来源] WBEZ 管理由 Torey Malatia 负责监督，他知道公共广播电台如何真正筹集资金。
We have a team of men that specifically target adult bookstores.
我们有一个专门针对成人书店的团队。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。