767: Do Not Go Gentle - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #767 | April 8, 2022 767: Do Not Go Gentle Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 767 集 | 2022 年 4 月 8 日 767：不要温柔 注意：《This American Life》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass Democracy-- Seems everybody was doing so well there for a while-- on the move, spreading hope around the world.
序言：序言 艾拉·格拉斯民主——似乎有一段时间每个人都做得很好——在前进，在世界各地传播希望。
And now, of course, more and more countries are moving in the other direction.
当然，现在越来越多的国家正在朝另一个方向发展。
There are strongman leaders doing great-- in Poland, Turkey, Serbia, Brazil, lots of other places.
在波兰、土耳其、塞尔维亚、巴西和许多其他地方，有一些强人领导人做得很好。
Even in our own country, democracy is feeling shakier.
即使在我们自己的国家，民主也感觉更加摇摇欲坠。
What is it-- 1/3 of all Americans think the results of the last election were invalid?
这是什么——1/3的美国人认为上次选举的结果无效？
Hungary had an election last week.
匈牙利上周举行了选举。
Hungary used to be a functioning democracy, but it's gotten less and less so.
匈牙利曾经是一个运转良好的民主国家，但现在已经变得越来越不那么民主了。
Once again, this time around, Viktor Orban was named prime minister.
这一次，维克托·欧尔班再次被任命为总理。
He's been prime minister there for the last 12 years.
过去 12 年来他一直担任该国总理。
Now, he gets four more-- no term limits over there.
现在，他又获得了四个职位——那里没有任期限制。
And to give you a sense of just how stacked the deck was in his favor-- like how extreme it was-- during the entire election, the amount of time Orban's opponents got on state television to make their case to voters was exactly five minutes.
为了让你了解在整个选举期间，欧尔班的对手在国家电视台上向选民阐述自己观点的时间恰好是五分钟，让你了解他的处境有多么有利——比如有多么极端。
I mean, like, for the whole election-- you with me here?
我的意思是，在整个选举过程中——你和我在一起吗？
Tons of coverage for Orban-- all of it positive-- speeches, interviews, analysis for months.
几个月来，欧尔班的大量报道——全都是正面的——演讲、采访、分析。
For his opponents-- just five minutes.
对于他的对手来说——只有五分钟。
And most of the other TV stations in Hungary followed suit.
匈牙利其他大多数电视台也纷纷效仿。
And the five minutes of the opponents got wasn't even during prime time.
而对手得到的五分钟甚至还不是黄金时段的。
It was five minutes on a Wednesday morning for Orban's main opponent-- this guy, Peter Marki-Zay, a newcomer, mayor from a small town.
周三早上，奥尔班的主要对手彼得·马基-扎伊 (Peter Marki-Zay) 登场了，他是一位新来的小镇市长，时间只有五分钟。
Basically, how it went is, two weeks before the election, Marki-Zay went into the TV studio of M1, the state-run news station, sat down at a round table, across from a TV presenter.
基本上，事情是这样的，选举前两周，马基-扎伊走进国营新闻台 M1 的电视演播室，坐在圆桌旁，对面是一位电视节目主持人。
Hanging between them was an enormous circular timer with a big 5 on it, like a stopwatch.
它们之间挂着一个巨大的圆形计时器，上面有一个大数字“5”，就像秒表一样。
Presenter barely finished introducing him before Marki-Zay took a big breath, tilted his head down, like he was a bull charging into the ring, and spoke.
主持人刚介绍完，Marki-Zay 就吸了一口气，低下头，就像一头冲进擂台的公牛一样，开口说道。
[SPEAKING HUNGARIAN] Peter Marki-Zay [SPEAKING HUNGARIAN]
[说匈牙利语] Peter Marki-Zay [说匈牙利语]
Thank you very much.
非常感谢。
Thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to speak for five minutes in four years, on behalf of the entire Hungarian opposition, representing some 2 and 1/2 to 3 million people, he says, quickly.
“非常感谢你们让我有机会在四年内代表整个匈牙利反对派（代表约 2又 1/2 至 300 万人）发言五分钟，”他很快说道。
The rest of what he says is more kind of familiar politician stuff.
他所说的其余内容是更熟悉的政治家的话。
My opponent is a hypocrite.
我的对手是个伪君子。
He's corrupt.
他很腐败。
He's lying about my record.
他在我的记录上撒了谎。
I will keep my promises to you.
我会信守对你的承诺。
I will curb inflation.
我会抑制通货膨胀。
I will pay more to teachers and police.
我会给老师和警察更多的钱。
He closes with the opposition slogan-- upwards.
他以反对派的口号——向上——结束。
The camera pans back from Marki-Zay's face, we see the timer click over to zero, time's up for Marki-Zay.
镜头从 Marki-Zay 的脸上向后移动，我们看到计时器点击到零，Marki-Zay 的时间到了。
Before Marki-Zay's five minutes, the station played an Orban speech from a couple of days earlier that had lasted an hour.
在马基-扎伊的五分钟演讲之前，电视台播放了几天前欧尔班的演讲，演讲持续了一个小时。
After his five minutes was up, they replayed it.
五分钟结束后，他们重播了一遍。
Giving exactly five minutes on television to the opposition-- it's like it preserves the appearance of democracy.
在电视上给反对派整整五分钟的时间——就好像它保留了民主的表象一样。
After all, they're opposition parties.
毕竟他们是反对党。
They exist.
它们存在。
They can say whatever they want.
他们想说什么就说什么。
They appear on television.
他们出现在电视上。
But of course, they don't get a real chance like they would in a real democracy.
但当然，他们没有像在真正的民主国家那样获得真正的机会。
And one candidate pointed to the absurdity of all that in his five minutes.
一位候选人在五分钟内指出了这一切的荒谬之处。
There's a bunch of parties that ran in this election, and this candidate was from a satirical political party, called the Two-Tailed Dog Party.
这次选举有很多政党参选，这位候选人来自一个讽刺政党，叫“双尾狗党”。
During his five minutes in the middle of his speech, he got a call on his cell phone.
演讲进行到一半时，他的手机接到了一个电话。
[SPEAKING HUNGARIAN] [TELEPHONE RINGING]
[说匈牙利语] [电话铃声]
[SPEAKING HUNGARIAN] Ira Glass Excuse me one second, he tells the audience.
[说匈牙利语]艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）请稍等一下，他对观众说。
It's the missus.
原来是老太太啊
And into the phone, he explains, honey, I'm on TV.
他在电话里解释道，亲爱的，我在电视上。
I told you about this.
我告诉过你这件事。
Even left a note on the fridge.
甚至在冰箱上留了一张纸条。
And he tries to get off, but the call just somehow won't end.
他试图下车，但电话却不知何故无法结束。
There's stuff that she wants him to pick up on the way home-- milk, cottage cheese.
她想让他在回家的路上带些东西——牛奶、干酪。
He keeps saying, OK, look, got to go.
他一直说，好吧，听着，该走了。
Love you.
爱你。
You hang up.
你挂断电话。
No, you hang up.
不，你挂了。
Then time runs out.
然后时间就耗尽了。
He's like, oh, well, we'll have another chance in four years' time, right?
他说，哦，好吧，四年后我们还会有机会，对吧？
This year's campaign in Hungary to try to unseat Viktor Orban-- his opponents talked about it like it was their last chance to save democracy.
今年在匈牙利举行的竞选活动试图推翻欧尔班·维克托——他的对手谈论这件事，就像这是他们拯救民主的最后机会一样。
Things have gotten steadily less democratic under 12 years of Orban.
在欧尔班执政的 12 年里，事情逐渐变得不那么民主。
If you had four more years, Hungary was going to tip forever into autocracy.
如果再有四年时间，匈牙利将永远陷入独裁统治。
This was such a real possibility, that the political parties did something they had never done before-- a kind of last gasp, Hail Mary, buzzer beater, "send the rocket to push the asteroid away from the Earth to save humanity" move.
这是一种如此真实的可能性，以至于各政党做了他们以前从未做过的事情——一种最后一口气、万福玛丽、压哨球、“发射火箭将小行星推离地球以拯救人类”的举动。
And we wanted to witness that close up.
我们想近距离见证这一点。
We have that story, and another story of people not going peacefully towards the fate that seems lined up for them.
我们有这样的故事，还有另一个故事，讲述的是人们并没有平静地走向似乎为他们安排好的命运。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One: The Brothers Harangazo Ira Glass Act One, The Brothers Harangazo.
第一幕：哈兰加佐兄弟 Ira Glass 第一幕，哈兰加佐兄弟。
OK, so one of our producers, Zoe Chace, flew to Hungary, with producer Diane Wu, in the weeks before the big election.
好的，我们的一位制片人佐伊·查斯 (Zoe Chace) 在大选前几周与制片人黛安·吴 (Diane Wu) 一起飞往匈牙利。
Zoe is somebody who has immersed himself in American politics and elections over the years and covered it.
佐伊多年来一直沉浸在美国政治和选举中并进行报道。
And to understand what it's like for the opposition in Hungary, Zoe followed two brothers-- one current and one former member of parliament-- both working to defeat Viktor Orban against, as you'll hear, incredible obstacles that we never see in this country.
为了了解匈牙利反对派的情况，佐伊跟踪了两兄弟——一名现任议员和一名前任议员——他们都致力于击败欧尔班·维克托，正如你会听到的那样，他们面临着我们在这个国家从未见过的令人难以置信的障碍。
Here's Zoe.
这是佐伊。
I don't know when this started exactly, but lately, Hungary has become a symbol in American politics.
我不知道这到底是从什么时候开始的，但最近，匈牙利已经成为美国政治的一个象征。
Tucker Carlson went over there and interviewed Orban for his show.
塔克·卡尔森去那里采访了欧尔班的节目。
Tucker praises Orban's hard-line stance against migrants-- not just the border fence Orban built, but the rhetoric, that new Muslim immigrants will de-Christianize Europe.
塔克赞扬欧尔班对移民的强硬立场——不仅是欧尔班修建的边境围栏，还有新的穆斯林移民将使欧洲去基督教化的言论。
Orban says things like, will Europe remain the continent of the Europeans?
欧尔班说，欧洲还会是欧洲人的大陆吗？
The American Conservative magazine is constantly publishing glowing stories about Hungary's, quote-unquote, "pro-family policies." Meanwhile, on the left, there are all these people trying to make Hungary this canary in the coal mine for the collapse of democracy, as though that's where we're headed, too.
美国保守党杂志不断发表有关匈牙利“亲家庭政策”的精彩报道。与此同时，在左翼，所有这些人都试图让匈牙利成为民主崩溃的煤矿里的金丝雀，好像这也是我们要去的地方。
America is going to become an autocracy.
美国将成为一个独裁国家。
I don't buy that, despite how similar some of this stuff sounds between our countries.
我不相信这一点，尽管我们国家之间的一些事情听起来多么相似。
And one of the reasons I don't is because of what the opposition did in this recent election.
我不这样做的原因之一是反对派在最近的选举中所做的事情。
It was really different from anything I've ever seen in America.
这与我在美国见过的任何东西都非常不同。
I found two people right in the middle of it.
我发现有两个人就在中间。
They're brothers.
他们是兄弟。
First, the elder one, Gabor Harangazo.
第一个是年长的加博尔·哈兰加佐 (Gabor Harangazo)。
He's a leftist, a lifelong socialist.
他是一个左派，一个终生的社会主义者。
He came into parliament in 2010, right when Orban took power.
2010年，欧尔班上台时，他进入了议会。
And he was miserable, he says, right from the beginning.
他说，他从一开始就很痛苦。
Orban was radically changing things around with his ruling party, Fidesz.
欧尔班正在与他的执政党青民盟彻底改变现状。
Gabor sighs a lot when he talks about Hungary.
加博尔谈到匈牙利时常常叹息。
Imagine, the first six months in the Hungarian parliament, I was sick-- physically sick-- because of what I could see that Fidesz has changed the whole country.
想象一下，在匈牙利议会的前六个月，我生病了——身体上生病了——因为我看到青民盟改变了整个国家。
[SIGHS] It was very bad.
[叹气]这非常糟糕。
Gabor watched as Orban and his Fidesz party took over big parts of the media, forced out all these civil servants, pushed out all these judges, remade key government oversight jobs-- the public prosecutor, the budget counsel-- so that he could stack them with loyalists with long tenures-- basically, just centralizing and consolidating the government in ways that would allow them to maintain a grip on power even if they lost the majority.
加博尔目睹了欧尔班和他的青民盟接管了大部分媒体，驱逐了所有这些公务员，驱逐了所有这些法官，重新制定了关键的政府监督职位——检察官、预算顾问——以便他可以在他们中安排长期任职的忠诚者——基本上，只是集中和巩固政府，让他们即使失去多数席位也能保持对权力的控制。
And along the way, Orban made policies lots of Hungarians loved.
一路走来，欧尔班制定了许多匈牙利人喜爱的政策。
He increased pensions, gave big tax refunds for families with kids.
他增加了养老金，为有孩子的家庭提供了大量退税。
He won a lot of loyal voters.
他赢得了很多忠实的选民。
But to Gabor, Hungary was looking less and less like a free country.
但对加博尔来说，匈牙利看起来越来越不像一个自由国家。
He'd hear about something, and he'd be like, no, that's too far.
当他听到一些事情时，他会说，不，那太远了。
Oh, it's too much.
噢，太多了。
They wouldn't do it.
他们不会这么做。
But they did it.
但他们做到了。
Kicking universities out of the country, the country's biggest newspaper shut down in a day-- in 2020, Gabor and the rest of the opposition started working on a way to get Orban voted out.
将大学赶出该国，该国最大的报纸一天之内就关闭了——2020 年，加博尔和其他反对派开始想办法让欧尔班落选。
The idea was get all the biggest political parties to unite against Viktor Orban-- from the socialist to the right wing, and the four parties in between.
这个想法是让所有最大的政党联合起来反对维克托·欧尔班——从社会主义者到右翼，以及中间的四个政党。
There was one party that Gabor knew would be the hardest to work with-- Jobbik, a party that had recently had actual fascists in it.
加博知道有一个政党是最难合作的——乔比克党，这个政党最近有真正的法西斯分子。
When Gabor first joined parliament, Jobbik representatives harassed him from the floor of the parliament, yelling that socialists should be hanged in the public square.
当加博尔第一次加入议会时，乔比克代表在议会大厅骚扰他，大喊社会主义者应该在公共广场被绞死。
When I became a member of the Hungarian parliament, I was seated in the building just next to Jobbik.
当我成为匈牙利议会议员时，我坐在乔比克旁边的大楼里。
And they really hated us.
他们真的很讨厌我们。
There was very, very big hate towards the socialist party from Jobbik.
乔比克对社会党怀有非常非常大的仇恨。
This was part of why he felt so sick trying to function in the parliament.
这就是为什么他在议会中任职时感到如此不适的部分原因。
But after 10 years of Orban, things got so bad, Gabor was like, nothing matters but getting rid of Orban.
但在欧尔班执政十年后，事情变得如此糟糕，加博尔说，除了摆脱欧尔班之外，没有什么比这更重要了。
We need a competitive democracy back.
我们需要恢复竞争性民主。
If the biggest parties get together and put all our voters together, maybe together, it's enough to vote him out.
如果最大的政党聚集在一起，让我们所有的选民聚集在一起，也许聚集在一起，就足以把他赶下台。
The coalition's name was United for Hungary.
该联盟的名称是“匈牙利联合联盟”。
This winter, in the run-up to the election, instead of each party nominating their own candidate for prime minister, they united behind just one guy-- Peter Marki-Zay, the guy who only got five minutes on state TV-- and all the parties campaigned for him.
今年冬天，在选举前夕，每个政党都没有提名自己的总理候选人，而是团结在一个人的身后——彼得·马基-扎伊，这个人只在国家电视台上演了五分钟——而所有政党都为他竞选。
I had really a lot of problem with Jobbik, and now, we will govern together if everything goes well.
我和Jobbik确实有很多问题，现在，如果一切顺利的话，我们将一起治理。
So everything changed in these 12 years.
所以这12年里一切都变了。
Imagine if AOC were out here campaigning with Mitch McConnell to get Mitt Romney elected.
想象一下，如果 AOC 在这里与米奇·麦康奈尔一起竞选，让米特·罗姆尼当选。
You'd know things have gotten really bad here for the Democrats to make a compromise like that.
你会知道，对于民主党做出这样的妥协来说，事情已经变得非常糟糕了。
The day I met Gabor, I stumbled upon him in the midst of something rather amazing-- to me.
我遇见加博的那天，我在一件对我来说相当惊人的事情中偶然发现了他。
This was a little more than a month before the election.
此时距离大选还有一个多月的时间。
I found him in his office in an old Communist Party building-- just Gabor and a desk, and a large drum set.
我在一座古老的共产党大楼里的办公室里找到了他——只有加博、一张桌子和一套大鼓。
He used to be in a band-- a band whose name translates to Fairy Louis Pop Show.
他曾经是一个乐队的成员——这个乐队的名字翻译过来就是“仙女路易斯流行秀”。
And he recently bought this set for himself, because he's so stressed out these days.
他最近给自己买了这套，因为他这些天压力太大了。
He says he plays every morning.
他说他每天早上都打球。
It's a strong contrast to his academicky affect.
这与他的学术影响形成了鲜明的对比。
He had the Google Doc of the opposition's whole platform open on his laptop-- everything they stood for, everything they wanted to change, including a whole new constitution.
他在笔记本电脑上打开了反对派整个平台的谷歌文档——他们所代表的一切，他们想要改变的一切，包括一部全新的宪法。
It was a plan to save Hungary's democracy that six different political parties have had to agree on.
这是一项拯救匈牙利民主的计划，六个不同政党必须达成一致。
It was right there in front of me.
它就在我面前。
And there were some minor amendments for today, and we just finished it.
今天有一些小的修改，我们刚刚完成。
So it's-- that was on my computer.
所以它就在我的电脑上。
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
Yeah, it's-- Zoe Chace I can see all the different editors in the doc and the text jumping around.
是的，它是 - Zoe Chace 我可以看到文档中所有不同的编辑器和跳跃的文本。
We want a new constitution.
我们想要一部新宪法。
Zoe Chace He outlines the basic principles of this new constitution.
Zoe Chace 他概述了这部新宪法的基本原则。
What you might expect from a country's constitution--
你可能对一个国家的宪法抱有什么期望——
Re-creation of the rule of law, independence of judges, guarantees of basic rights.
重建法治、法官独立、保障基本权利。
OK.
好的。
I think of a constitution as pretty settled-- not like you'd win an election, and get to rewrite the founding document of the country.
我认为宪法已经很确定了——不像你赢得选举，然后重写国家的建国文件。
But when Orban came in with his party, Fidesz, 12 years ago, that's what he did.
但12年前，当欧尔班及其政党青民盟上台时，他就是这么做的。
First, he used Fidesz' 2/3 majority to scrap the rule that you need 4/5 of the parliament to change the constitution.
首先，他利用青民盟的2/3多数票废除了需要议会4/5票数才能修改宪法的规定。
And then, his 2/3 majority voted in a new constitution.
然后，他的2/3多数投票通过了新宪法。
The new constitution outlines certain values-- a commitment that Hungary remain Christian, that marriage was between a man and a woman, as examples.
新宪法概述了某些价值观——例如，承诺匈牙利保持基督教信仰，婚姻是一男一女之间的事。
Orban and his 2/3 majority then totally remade the judiciary, the constitutional court, in a way that made it subservient to the governing party, Fidesz.
随后，欧尔班和他的 2/3 多数席位彻底改造了司法机构，即宪法法院，使其屈服于执政党青民盟 (Fidesz)。
Gabor comes across as both tired and excited today, because today is supposedly the last day-- the day they are finishing the plan after overcoming all the disagreements.
加博今天显得既疲惫又兴奋，因为今天据说是最后一天——他们在克服所有分歧后完成计划的那一天。
But there's this glitch, a conflict, with Jobbik around the use of this one word that I guess, to be honest, I'd consider fundamental to any constitution if I had to pick one.
但乔比克在使用这个词时存在一个小问题，一个冲突，我想，说实话，如果我必须选择一个词，我会认为它是任何宪法的基础。
Jobbik doesn't like this word.
Jobbik不喜欢这个词。
They don't like to use the word, equality.
他们不喜欢使用平等这个词。
[HUNGARIAN] Zoe Chace OK.
[匈牙利语] Zoe Chace 好的。
They don't like that word?
他们不喜欢这个词？
No. Because it's too leftist.
不，因为它太左了。
Even not in the gender chapter.
即使不在性别章节中。
When we wrote in the gender chapter that-- it was a title that-- equality between men and women, and they didn't agree with it, so we had to delete this sentence.
当我们在性别章节中写到——这是一个标题——男女平等，他们不同意，所以我们不得不删除这句话。
Because the equality is not supported by them, because we are not the same.
因为他们不支持平等，因为我们不一样。
And we couldn't explain them that equality doesn't mean the same.
我们无法向他们解释平等并不意味着相同。
It means that we have equal rights.
这意味着我们拥有平等的权利。
We need to get equal salaries.
我们需要得到平等的工资。
And equality is not meaning that the same.
而平等并不意味着相同。
OK, but to be fair, Jobbik has to walk a super careful line.
好吧，但公平地说，Jobbik 必须走得非常小心。
If they seem too left-wing now, their voters will just vote for Fidesz, Orban's party.
如果他们现在看起来太左翼，他们的选民就会投票给欧尔班领导的青民盟。
Gabor and the socialists have to listen to Jobbik.
加博尔和社会主义者必须听取乔比克的意见。
They're the only party that's going to bring in any right-wing voters to this coalition.
他们是唯一能够吸引右翼选民加入这个联盟的政党。
The coalition needs Jobbik voters.
该联盟需要Jobbik选民。
And Jobbik's more tolerable now for socialists.
对于社会主义者来说，乔比克现在更容易忍受了。
It's easier for him to listen to them.
他更容易倾听他们的声音。
In the last few years, as they've lost voters to Orban's Fidesz, Jobbik has chosen to moderate.
在过去的几年里，由于欧尔班的青民盟失去了选民，乔比克选择了温和派。
I talked with some of them about it.
我和他们中的一些人谈过这件事。
They've gone Jeff Sessions to Jeff Flake.
他们把杰夫塞申斯换成了杰夫弗莱克。
You could think of today's Jobbik as sort of centrist Republicans.
你可以将今天的乔比克视为中间派共和党人。
Anti-corruption is their big issue.
反腐败是他们的大问题。
Gabor called them Never Trumpers to me.
加博对我来说，称他们为“永不特朗普”。
Never Orbanists, he said.
他说，从来没有欧尔班主义者。
What does the word, equality, symbolize to the Jobbik voter, that is bad?
对于乔比克选民来说，平等这个词象征着什么，这是不好的？
OK, mainly two things.
好吧，主要是两件事。
One is, they are anti-communist.
一是，他们是反共的。
And in older generation, equality can somehow be connected to communist ideas.
在老一代人中，平等可以在某种程度上与共产主义思想联系起来。
We are all the same.
我们都是一样的。
There's something communist about that.
这里面有一些共产主义的东西。
And that's what they really would like to avoid, to be able to say that you are flirting with communist ideas or something like this.
这就是他们真正想要避免的，能够说你正在与共产主义思想或类似的东西调情。
Yes, yes, yes.
是的，是的，是的。
And the other reason is Fidesz has a very successful campaign against LGBTI rights.
另一个原因是青民盟针对 LGBTI 权利的运动非常成功。
Fidesz, Orban's party, the governing party-- they've recently sponsored a referendum on a law to, for one, get rid of any kind of materials that deal with gay stuff in schools.
欧尔班领导的青民盟、执政党——他们最近发起了一场关于一项法律的全民公投，其中之一就是废除学校中任何涉及同性恋内容的材料。
To safeguard Christian values against Western liberalism-- is how Orban puts it.
欧尔班是这么说的：捍卫基督教价值观，反对西方自由主义。
It's a little more hardcore than what Florida is doing here, but similar.
这比佛罗里达州在这里做的事情更硬核一点，但也很相似。
Even the same language promoting it, I noticed-- protect our children.
我注意到，即使是同样的语言来宣传它——保护我们的孩子。
The Hungarian version is, stop the gender madness coming from Brussels, home of the EU.
匈牙利的版本是，停止来自欧盟总部布鲁塞尔的性别疯狂。
The thinking was, all this might appeal to Jobbik's voters also.
我们的想法是，所有这些也可能会吸引乔比克的选民。
So the socialists, and everyone else in the opposition, agreed, yeah, let's duck this whole thing by leaving any remotely gay issues out of their platform.
因此，社会主义者和反对派中的其他人都同意，是的，让我们通过将任何遥远的同性恋问题排除在他们的平台之外来回避这整件事。
And they went with Jobbik's ask and didn't include the word, equality, in the gender chapter.
他们答应了乔比克的要求，并没有在性别章节中加入“平等”这个词。
So that's why-- this is the other reason why they try to take out from all of our papers.
这就是为什么——这是他们试图从我们所有的论文中删除的另一个原因。
The word, equality, is a little bit gay.
平等这个词有点同性恋。
There are nine other issues that they all think are too gay to agree on-- things they're not going to go near-- the obvious ones, like raising taxes, and then esoteric ones, like nuclear power.
还有九个他们都认为过于同性恋而无法达成一致的问题——他们不会去接近的事情——显而易见的问题，比如加税，然后是深奥的问题，比如核电。
Remember, the greens are in this coalition.
请记住，绿党属于这个联盟。
I just-- I really like this example about equality and the gays, because it's easy to say you want to compromise so everyone can come together to defeat autocracy, but what if that means leaving gay people out of your human rights program?
我只是——我真的很喜欢这个关于平等和同性恋的例子，因为很容易说你想要妥协，这样每个人都可以团结起来打败独裁，但如果这意味着将同性恋者排除在你的人权计划之外呢？
Is that a compromise worth making?
这是一个值得做出的妥协吗？
To me, it shows how afraid they are in Hungary at this moment.
对我来说，这表明他们此刻在匈牙利有多么害怕。
You'll see what they give up.
你会看到他们放弃了什么。
In the US, you hear people on the left say how scared they are that Donald Trump will return to power.
在美国，你会听到左翼人士说他们多么害怕唐纳德·特朗普重新掌权。
But they don't seem scared like the people I talk to in Hungary.
但他们似乎并不像我在匈牙利交谈过的人那样害怕。
They don't seem ready to make those kind of compromises, those kind of sacrifices, in order to win conservative voters who might not want to vote for Trump.
他们似乎还没有准备好做出那种妥协、那种牺牲，以赢得可能不想投票给特朗普的保守派选民。
Anyway, the compromises were all hard.
无论如何，妥协都是艰难的。
And even though Gabor thought they were done, it wasn't until two weeks before the election that the opposition went public with their platform.
尽管加博尔认为他们已经完成了，但直到选举前两周，反对派才公开他们的政纲。
Gabor felt the clock ticking.
加博感觉到时钟在滴答作响。
These delays were deeply frustrating to him.
这些延误让他深感沮丧。
They gave him a fiddling-while-Rome-burns-type feeling.
它们给他一种罗马燃烧时的拨弄感觉。
Because we think that this is our last-- maybe not the last chance, but if lose this chance, then-- [SIGHS] it can happen that it was the last chance, yes.
因为我们认为这是我们最后的——也许不是最后的机会，但如果失去这个机会，那么——[叹气]这可能是最后的机会，是的。
Of course, the opposition parties could work together for another four years.
当然，反对党可以再合作四年。
But-- [SIGHS] I'm afraid that many, many people will lose their faith that change could be any time.
但是——[叹气]我担心很多很多人会失去改变随时可能发生的信念。
He has relatives who are afraid to say out loud what they think.
他的亲戚不敢大声说出他们的想法。
He says his kids are being taught to hate people who are different from them in school.
他说，他的孩子们被教导要讨厌学校里与他们不同的人。
It's poisoning.
这是中毒了
[CHUCKLES] Zoe Chace He wasn't sleeping at night these days, he says, because he was fighting with his wife about leaving.
[咯咯笑] Zoe Chace 他说，这些天他晚上都睡不着觉，因为他正在和妻子就离开问题发生争执。
If they lose, she says, they have to leave the country.
她说，如果他们输了，他们就必须离开这个国家。
Yes, I'm not sure that I'm able to leave.
是的，我不确定我是否能够离开。
[CHUCKLES] Yeah.
[轻笑]是的。
Even If you lose?
就算输了？
Gabor Harangazo Maybe I will leave with my family because of my family, but not because of, I would like to leave.
Gabor Harangazo 也许我会因为我的家人而和家人一起离开，但不是因为，我想离开。
Because you would, what, want to stay and keep fighting?
因为你想留下来继续战斗？
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Zoe Chace Forming the coalition and keeping the coalition together has been really hard.
佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace） 组建联盟并保持联盟的团结非常困难。
But the biggest hurdle, I believe-- it's letting voters know what they're even doing.
但我认为，最大的障碍是让选民知道他们在做什么。
It's like, is a campaign a campaign if no one knows you're campaigning?
这就好像，如果没有人知道你在竞选，一场竞选还是一场竞选吗？
That challenge-- I didn't really understand how big it was until I hung out with Tamas Harangazo, Gabor's younger brother.
这个挑战——直到我和加博尔的弟弟塔马斯·哈兰加佐一起出去玩之前，我才真正明白它有多大。
He's brasher, louder.
他比较粗鲁，声音更大。
Gabor's more stoic.
加博更加坚忍。
Tamas is jumpier.
塔马斯更加神经质。
He's part of the coalition, too.
他也是联盟的一员。
Since the beginning, he's been there with Gabor.
从一开始，他就和加博在一起。
He's also a socialist.
他也是一名社会主义者。
He's out here trying to win his seat in parliament.
他来这里是为了赢得议会席位。
I met him in his campaign office, in Szekszard, where the boys grew up.
我在他位于塞克萨德的竞选办公室见到了他，孩子们就是在那里长大的。
And there were all these things that were both like elections I know, and totally unlike elections I know, at the campaign offices I went to in Hungary.
在我去匈牙利的竞选办公室，所有这些事情既像我所知道的选举，又完全不同于我所知道的选举。
There were campaign managers, maps, schedules, swag with the candidate's name on it, pizza boxes, and pastries, and coffee, and all the things you expect to see exactly in a campaign office.
这里有竞选经理、地图、日程表、印有候选人名字的礼物、披萨盒、糕点和咖啡，以及所有你期望在竞选办公室看到的东西。
And talking to Tamas, at first, it was what I expect.
起初，与塔马斯交谈时，这正是我所期望的。
Every Wednesday, we are planning the next week, summarizing the last week, planning the next week and the next two weeks.
每周三，我们都在计划下周，总结上周，规划下周和后两周。
Like, what doors to knock on and stuff like that?
比如，要敲什么门之类的？
Everything.
一切。
Zoe Chace But quickly, the bizarre, surreal hoops he had to jump through in order to campaign in Hungary became clear to me.
佐伊·切斯 (Zoe Chace) 但很快，我就清楚地意识到他为了在匈牙利竞选而必须跨越的奇异、超现实的障碍。
They're planning how to get their campaign literature out.
他们正在计划如何公布他们的竞选宣传材料。
Looks regular, but here's the Hungarian part.
看起来很普通，但这是匈牙利语部分。
There is a policy in Hungary, Tamas is explaining to me.
塔马斯正在向我解释，匈牙利有一项政策。
The postal service won't send campaign literature through the mail.
邮政服务不会通过邮件发送竞选资料。
Last spring, the government changed the rule, and the Hungarian post do not handle flyers and--
去年春天，政府改变了规定，匈牙利邮政不再处理传单，而且——
Like, campaign literature?
比如竞选文学？
They won't handle campaign literature?
他们不会处理竞选文献吗？
The post office?
邮局？
Yeah, nothing.
是的，没什么。
Yes.
是的。
Zoe Chace Here's how this restriction works.
Zoe Chace 以下是此限制的运作方式。
It's tricky.
这很棘手。
It's diabolical.
这是恶魔般的。
One year before this election, the postal service stopped accepting political mailings or business flyers.
这次选举前一年，邮政服务停止接受政治邮件或商业传单。
You know, sign up for this service, or vote for this guy-- you can't send that stuff through the postal service.
你知道，注册这项服务，或者投票给这个人——你不能通过邮政服务发送这些东西。
OK.
好的。
So you have to use a private company, a local delivery company-- except they won't work with Tamas.
所以你必须使用一家私人公司，一家当地的送货公司——除非他们不与塔马斯合作。
And when I go there and say, I would like to pay, just please deliver my flyers, they say, sorry, I don't.
当我去那里说，我愿意付钱，请寄出我的传单时，他们说，抱歉，我不付钱。
And can-- what do they say-- Tamas Harangazo It's not-- it's not like it's prohibited, you know.
可以——他们怎么说——塔马斯·哈兰加佐（Tamas Harangazo）这不是——这不像是被禁止的，你知道。
It's a shadow state, or something like this.
这是一种影子状态，或者类似的东西。
A shadow state, he calls it.
他称之为影子状态。
It's not that Orban's party, the governing party, Fidesz, runs everything.
并不是欧尔班的政党、执政党青民盟掌控一切。
It influences everything.
它影响一切。
Orban and his buddies tend to profit from that.
欧尔班和他的伙伴往往会从中获利。
Tamas says the local distributor guy has a contract with the local newspaper, which is currently owned by this media foundation that's run by pro-government people.
塔马斯说，当地经销商与当地报纸签订了合同，该报纸目前由亲政府人士运营的媒体基金会所有。
And because the distributor needs that business, it refuses to work with the opposition to mail their campaign flyers.
由于分销商需要这项业务，因此拒绝与反对派合作邮寄他们的竞选传单。
There's a handful of public advertising companies linked to the government in various ways that lock the opposition out.
有一些公共广告公司以各种方式与政府有联系，将反对派拒之门外。
Ergo, Tamas' campaign has to deliver all their campaign mailers by hand.
因此，塔马斯的竞选团队必须亲自递送所有竞选邮件。
Billboards are another big example.
广告牌是另一个大例子。
It's hard for them to get billboards.
他们很难获得广告牌。
It's sneaky, the shadow state.
这是偷偷摸摸的，影子状态。
One of the few things the opposition has been able to do is hold rallies.
反对派能够做的为数不多的事情之一就是举行集会。
Some are pretty big, like an event they had in Szekszard-- Tamas' area.
有些活动规模相当大，比如他们在塞克萨德（塔马斯地区）举办的活动。
The prime minister candidate showed up.
首相候选人出现了。
I saw pictures.
我看到了照片。
It was a big turnout.
投票率很高。
But of course, because the local paper is owned by an Orban-friendly group--
但当然，因为当地报纸是由一个对欧尔班友好的团体拥有的——
It never happened.
它从未发生过。
It wasn't in the local newspaper, nor in the local radio, or in the television, like it never happened.
这件事既没有出现在当地报纸上，也没有出现在当地广播电台或电视上，就像它从未发生过一样。
There's one other thing Tamas described to me about his particular job that was surreal-- almost creepy to imagine it.
塔马斯向我描述了关于他的特殊工作的另一件事，这是超现实的——想象起来几乎令人毛骨悚然。
It's how stifling it is inside the actual parliament.
这就是实际议会内部的令人窒息的情况。
You can't do anything.
你什么也做不了。
Like, you really can't do anything in the minority.
就像，你真的不能为少数人做任何事情。
Tamas keeps showing up to work, though.
不过，塔马斯仍然坚持上班。
The parliament building is a big, beautiful, spiky, castle-looking building-- more "Brothers Grimm" than Disney, which is regionally appropriate.
议会大厦是一座巨大、美丽、尖顶、城堡式的建筑——比迪士尼更像“格林兄弟”，这在当地是合适的。
What happens inside is normal parliament stuff.
里面发生的事情是正常的议会事务。
Tamas comes in, takes his place.
塔马斯进来，接替他的位置。
He speaks out against the Orban laws, which come fast and furious.
他公开反对欧尔班法律，这些法律来得又快又猛烈。
But it's like a weird Dadaist performance.
但这就像一场奇怪的达达主义表演。
There used to be a sort of C-SPAN broadcasting what was going on in there.
过去有一种 C-SPAN 广播那里发生的事情。
Orban shut it down.
欧尔班关闭了它。
Television, radio, and newspapers will not report on his arguments.
电视、广播和报纸不会报道他的论点。
But he says, if he doesn't show up and say something, that's kind of like the whole democracy is throwing in the towel.
但他说，如果他不出现并说些什么，那就有点像整个民主国家都认输了。
There has to be debate.
必须有辩论。
If you take it away, then you take away the spirit of not just democracy, but the chance to change.
如果你剥夺了它，那么你不仅剥夺了民主精神，而且剥夺了变革的机会。
It is [HUNGARIAN].
这是[匈牙利语]。
Unbearable, what's happening in the house of parliament in Hungary these days.
难以忍受，匈牙利议会大厦这几天发生的事情。
So at the moment, it's like, you go, you debate, you say what you think, but nobody can hear it.
所以现在，就像是，你去辩论，你说出你的想法，但没有人能听到。
The public can't hear it, and there's no publicity, so nobody writes about it.
公众听不到，也没有宣传，所以没有人写它。
Yeah.
是的。
Tamas Harangazo Of course our supporters are following it, but it's, you know, inside our bubble.
塔马斯·哈兰加佐 当然，我们的支持者正在关注它，但你知道，它是在我们的泡沫之内。
Obviously, we don't need a Viktor Orban to put ourselves so completely in our own media silos, that you never hear the argument of the other side.
显然，我们不需要维克托·欧尔班那样将自己完全置于自己的媒体孤岛中，以至于你永远听不到对方的论点。
We have C-SPAN, we have The Washington Post running around the capital, we have Politico, telling us what's going on inside our government every day.
我们有 C-SPAN，我们有《华盛顿邮报》在首都运行，我们有 Politico，每天告诉我们政府内部发生的事情。
But who reads The Washington Post and Politico?
但谁会读《华盛顿邮报》和《政治报》呢？
The people who believe what's in it.
相信其中内容的人。
Hungary is a similar situation.
匈牙利也有类似的情况。
There is independent media that's not influenced by Orban, but it's mostly online, and you have to know about it to go find it.
有一些不受欧尔班影响的独立媒体，但大多是在线的，你必须了解它才能找到它。
You have to want it.
你必须想要它。
Fidesz supporters are often rural and older.
青民盟的支持者通常是农村人和老年人。
They have the TV and the radio on, it's controlled by the state, and they think the opposition is lying.
他们开着电视和广播，由国家控制，他们认为反对派在撒谎。
The new phrase in Hungarian for "fake news" is "fake news."
匈牙利语中表示“假新闻”的新短语是“假新闻”。
This is the thing that's most similar, in my view, between Hungary and America-- the media situation.
在我看来，匈牙利和美国最相似的一点就是媒体情况。
There, the right-wing values on radio and TV are enforced by the state.
在那里，广播和电视上的右翼价值观是由国家强制执行的。
Here, we self-segregate into our own bubbles.
在这里，我们自我隔离在自己的泡沫中。
But we also live in two different media universes.
但我们也生活在两个不同的媒体世界中。
A month before election day, Russia invaded Ukraine.
选举日前一个月，俄罗斯入侵乌克兰。
Hungary borders Ukraine, and refugees were pouring in.
匈牙利与乌克兰接壤，难民涌入。
Hungarians were really scared about the war.
匈牙利人真的很害怕战争。
Orban started saying the opposition wanted to send Hungarian troops to fight in Ukraine-- incredibly unpopular, also totally untrue.
欧尔班开始说反对派想派遣匈牙利军队去乌克兰作战——这非常不受欢迎，也完全不真实。
The state media repeated this line endlessly.
官方媒体不断地重复这句话。
On the other hand, Orban's so close to Putin, people in the opposition thought, this war can't help Orban.
另一方面，欧尔班与普京关系如此密切，反对派人士认为，这场战争对欧尔班没有帮助。
How are you feeling about things?
你对事情感觉如何？
I called Gabor a week before the election.
我在选举前一周给加博打了电话。
I can't give you a real reason, but-- (CHUCKLING) I'm getting more and more optimistic.
我无法给你一个真正的理由，但是——（咯咯笑）我变得越来越乐观。
(CHUCKLING) Wow.
（笑）哇。
Gabor Harangazo I don't know if you could follow the latest opinion polls.
Gabor Harangazo 我不知道你能否关注最新的民意调查。
Mm.
毫米。
No. Tell me.
不，告诉我。
Gabor Harangazo They were-- no, so they were not the best.
Gabor Harangazo 他们是——不，所以他们不是最好的。
OK.
好的。
Gabor Harangazo There were some which were quite bad.
Gabor Harangazo 有一些非常糟糕。
None of the polls-- the more legit or the less legit-- none of them ever showed a big advantage for the opposition.
没有一次民意调查——无论是更合法的还是不太合法的——都没有显示出反对派的巨大优势。
But the opposition was deploying all sorts of old-fashioned ways to get the word out.
但反对派正在使用各种老式方式来宣传。
There's not a big tradition in Hungary, Gabor says, of door-to-door campaigning.
加博尔说，匈牙利没有挨家挨户竞选活动的大传统。
But they were doing it-- face-to-face interactions, big rallies around the country, handing out literature, holding meetings in the countryside, where media is especially limited to state propaganda.
但他们正在这样做——面对面的互动，在全国各地举行大型集会，分发文献，在农村举行会议，而那里的媒体尤其仅限于国家宣传。
He was seeing stuff he'd never seen before-- people signing up to volunteer.
他看到了以前从未见过的东西——人们报名参加志愿者。
Money was coming in.
钱进来了。
The opposition was richer than it had ever been.
反对派比以往任何时候都更加富有。
They were sharing all their lists of supporters so they had all this data they'd never had before.
他们分享了所有支持者名单，因此他们拥有了以前从未拥有过的所有数据。
As Gabor went around to make his pitch, the rooms were getting fuller.
当加博四处推销时，房间里越来越挤满了人。
When I visited, he was worried that no one believed they could win, so they wouldn't bother trying to help them win.
当我拜访时，他担心没有人相信他们能获胜，所以他们不会费心去帮助他们获胜。
But now, he thought, people were starting to believe it.
但现在，他想，人们开始相信这一点了。
People are starting to maybe want to be part of a historic moment.
人们可能开始想成为历史性时刻的一部分。
Yes, yes, yes.
是的，是的，是的。
And we are far more organized than we were before.
我们比以前更有组织性了。
And I don't believe that it cannot be enough.
我不认为这还不够。
[CROWD CHEERING] Reporter In Hungary's capital, a few hundred cheered as Viktor Orban headed towards his fourth consecutive term as prime minister.
[人群欢呼]记者 在匈牙利首都，数百人欢呼雀跃，迎接维克托·欧尔班即将连续第四次担任总理。
[SPEAKING HUNGARIAN] Reporter Dear friends, he said.
[匈牙利语]记者亲爱的朋友们，他说。
We've achieved a huge victory.
我们取得了巨大的胜利。
It was over that evening, Sunday, April 3.
4 月 3 日星期日晚上，一切就结束了。
[SIGHS] Feeling very bad.
[叹气]感觉很糟糕。
Zoe Chace Oh.
佐伊·切斯哦。
I don't know what to say.
我不知道该说什么。
It's a disaster.
这是一场灾难。
Yeah.
是的。
Well.
出色地。
It's really unbelievable.
真是难以置信。
It wasn't just that Orban won, that Fidesz won.
不仅欧尔班赢了，青民盟也赢了。
They won resoundingly.
他们大获全胜。
They won the 2/3 majority again, easily.
他们轻松地再次赢得了 2/3 的多数票。
When I talked to Orban spokesman about all this, he insisted the election would be fair.
当我与欧尔班发言人谈论这一切时，他坚称选举将是公平的。
But that's contradicted by facts on the ground.
但这与实地事实相矛盾。
The wind was at Orban's back because of a lot of stuff-- these structural advantages, money advantages, gerrymandering advantages, obviously, the media.
欧尔班的风向之所以受到支持，是因为有很多因素——这些结构性优势、资金优势、不公正划分选区的优势，显然还有媒体。
But even with all that, the opposition was missing voters, missing supporters.
但即便如此，反对派仍然缺少选民、缺少支持者。
Something like 800,000 to one million voters they had counted on did not show up and vote for them.
他们原本指望的大约80万到100万选民没有到场投票给他们。
Where were they?
他们在哪里？
They were voting, just not for the opposition.
他们正在投票，只是不支持反对派。
They were Jobbik voters.
他们是乔比克选民。
The Jobbik voters probably went for Fidesz, or for this new far-far-right party, an ultranationalist, racist, anti-vaccine party, called Mi Hazánk, My Homeland.
乔比克选民可能会支持青民盟（Fidesz），或者这个新的极右翼政党，一个极端民族主义、种族主义、反疫苗的政党，名为“我的祖国”（Mi Hazánk）。
That party got a lot of new supporters, enough votes to sit-in parliament.
该党获得了很多新的支持者，有足够的选票在议会中静坐。
Gabor says, for sure, they'll be part of the Fidesz voting bloc when they get there.
加博尔说，当然，当他们到达那里时，他们将成为青民盟投票集团的一部分。
Gabor was back at the socialist building with the party president.
加博尔与党主席一起回到了社会主义大楼。
They were watching the Marki-Zay concession speech and trying to imagine the next morning.
他们正在观看马基-扎伊的败选演讲，并试图想象第二天早上的情况。
You know, tomorrow, we have to say something to our party members and decide what we will do.
你知道，明天我们必须向我们的党员说些什么，并决定我们要做什么。
So we have a kind of emergency meeting.
所以我们召开了一次紧急会议。
He was expecting people to be upset.
他预计人们会感到不安。
Seems like this coalition hadn't worked out.
看来这个联盟并没有成功。
You know, when I called my wife, she just told me that she started to pack the big suitcases.
你知道，当我打电话给我妻子时，她只是告诉我她开始收拾大行李箱。
No. [CHUCKLES] Gabor Harangazo It's really difficult, especially, you know, with the children.
不。[轻笑] Gabor Harangazo 这真的很困难，尤其是，你知道，和孩子们在一起。
If, uh, the people who are thinking just like us, who would like to follow the classical European values, have only less than 1/3 in the country, then it makes further questions.
如果呃，像我们一样思考，愿意遵循欧洲古典价值观的人，在这个国家只有不到1/3，那么这就提出了进一步的问题。
Even the reporters I talked to were taken aback.
就连与我交谈的记者也大吃一惊。
Everyone had expected Orban to win, but for the election to be close.
每个人都预计欧尔班会获胜，但选举结果非常接近。
This is a huge mandate for Orban, and a signal to the rest of Europe that a lot of Europeans like Orban's politics.
这对欧尔班来说是一项巨大的任务，也是向欧洲其他国家发出的一个信号，表明许多欧洲人喜欢欧尔班的政治。
Gabor never imagined they were outnumbered this badly.
加博从未想象过他们的人数如此之少。
That sick feeling he'd had in parliament 12 years ago-- it was back.
12 年前他在议会时的那种恶心感觉又回来了。
This difference is shocking.
这种差异令人震惊。
Zoe Chace It's funny.
佐伊·切斯 这很有趣。
I expected that Gabor might castigate himself for making compromises he shouldn't have, or castigate Jobbik, or others in the coalition.
我预计加博可能会因为做出不应该的妥协而责备自己，或者责备乔比克或联盟中的其他人。
They'd made a big plan, and the plan had failed.
他们制定了一个宏伟的计划，但这个计划失败了。
Things must not have been going as well as he thought.
事情一定没有他想象的那么顺利。
No, he told me, the parties did a great job, really campaigned hard.
不，他告诉我，各政党做得很好，竞选活动也很努力。
We finally met all of our supporters face-to-face.
我们终于面对面见到了所有支持者。
There just weren't enough of them.
他们的数量还不够。
I could read many campaign books on how to run campaigns, he said.
他说，我可以阅读很多关于如何开展竞选活动的竞选书籍。
It wasn't the campaign.
这不是竞选活动。
Orban said over and over, if the opposition won, we were going to war in Ukraine.
欧尔班一遍又一遍地说，如果反对派获胜，我们就会在乌克兰发动战争。
It wasn't true, but people believed it.
这不是真的，但人们却相信了。
Authoritarianism works, he said.
他说，威权主义是有效的。
They always find a way to win.
他们总能找到获胜的方法。
Zoe Chace-- she's one of the producers of our show.
佐伊·查斯——她是我们节目的制片人之一。
Coming up-- secret recordings from inside a Russian police station that surprised even Russians.
即将到来——来自俄罗斯警察局内部的秘密录音，甚至连俄罗斯人都感到惊讶。
That's in a minute on Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台稍后将继续我们的节目。
Act Two: Putin’s On Our Side Ira Glass It's This American Life.
第二幕：普京站在我们一边艾拉·格拉斯这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today on our show, "Do Not Go Gentle"-- stories of people doing whatever they can think of to fight back, to resist, to say no, to what fate seems to have in store for them.
今天在我们的节目《不要温柔》中讲述了人们竭尽全力反击、抵抗、拒绝命运似乎为他们准备的一切的故事。
We've arrived at Act Two of our program.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。
Act Two, Putin's on Our Side.
第二幕，普京站在我们这边。
So the laws on reporting the news in Russia have changed since the invasion of Ukraine.
因此，自从入侵乌克兰以来，俄罗斯报道新闻的法律已经发生了变化。
You may have heard about this.
您可能听说过这个。
If you're a media outlet in Russia, you cannot use the word "war" to characterize the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
如果你是俄罗斯媒体，你不能用“战争”这个词来形容俄罗斯入侵乌克兰。
You have to call it a "special military operation."
你必须称其为“特殊军事行动”。
You can't talk about Ukrainian civilians being bombed.
你不能谈论乌克兰平民被轰炸的事情。
Novaya Gazeta is one of the oldest independent newspapers in Russia.
《新报》是俄罗斯最古老的独立报纸之一。
Its editor-in-chief won the Nobel Peace Prize last year.
它的主编去年获得了诺贝尔和平奖。
And when the war began, it didn't follow those new rules from the Russian government.
当战争开始时，它并没有遵循俄罗斯政府的新规则。
It did straight accurate reporting.
它做了直接准确的报告。
Then, the Russian Ministry of Defense sent a written warning saying all their news was fake news.
随后，俄罗斯国防部发出书面警告，称他们的所有新闻都是假新闻。
They couldn't keep operating the way they had.
他们无法继续按照原来的方式运作。
They could be shut down, which left the paper to figure out what to do, how to report on the war.
它们可能会被关闭，这使得该报必须弄清楚该做什么，如何报道战争。
And what they came up with was pretty ingenious.
他们想出的办法非常巧妙。
One of our producers, Robyn Semien, tells the story.
我们的制片人之一罗宾·塞米恩 (Robyn Semien) 讲述了这个故事。
Reporting in Russia has all sorts of perils.
在俄罗斯进行报道存在各种各样的危险。
Since Putin has been in power, Novaya Gazeta has seen six of its journalists murdered by methods that include poison and gunshots at close range.
自普京执政以来，《新报》已经看到六名记者被谋杀，包括近距离投毒和枪击。
They've had other journalists threatened.
他们还受到其他记者的威胁。
And it was clear that the new rules on reporting on Ukraine and the warning the paper got from the government would require new tactics.
很明显，有关乌克兰报道的新规则以及该报从政府收到的警告将需要新的策略。
So the first thing the paper did-- this was in early March.
所以该报做的第一件事是在三月初。
They removed any story they'd run that potentially broke the law, like the one called "Putin Invades Ukraine," or "There's No Justification for this War." Or the cover story, "Russia is Bombing Ukraine," was gone, taken down.
他们删除了所有可能违反法律的报道，例如“普京入侵乌克兰”或“这场战争没有正当理由”的报道。或者封面故事“俄罗斯正在轰炸乌克兰”消失了，被撤下了。
I talked to Nikita Kondratiev, the Head of News there, about this pause.
我与那里的新闻主管尼基塔·康德拉季耶夫（Nikita Kondratiev）谈论了这次暂停。
Nikita said, they had to.
尼基塔说，他们必须这样做。
Stop printing the news for a while, just to understand how to exist in this new reality.
暂时停止印刷新闻，只是为了了解如何在这个新现实中生存。
Nikita had watched as just this year, other independent news outlets, one by one, had succumbed to the pressure and closed, fled, or been taken over by state media.
就在今年，尼基塔目睹了其他独立新闻媒体纷纷屈服于压力，关闭、出逃或被官方媒体接管。
Dozhd is "rain" in Russian, so TV Rain-- they--
Dozhd 在俄语中是“雨”的意思，所以 TV Rain——他们——
First, TV Rain shut down.
首先，TV Rain 被关闭。
Meduza's reporters fled the country.
梅杜扎的记者逃离了该国。
Nikita knows this by heart.
尼基塔对此了如指掌。
There are others.
还有其他的。
There is a media outlet called MediaZona.
有一个名为 MediaZona 的媒体机构。
They also fled the country.
他们也逃离了这个国家。
Who else?
还有谁？
The oldest liberal radio station called Echo of Moscow, Ekho Moskvy, closed.
最古老的自由派广播电台“莫斯科回声”(Ekho Moskvy) 关闭。
Now, their radio frequency is now occupied by state propaganda radio, called Sputnik.
现在，他们的无线电频率被国家宣传电台（称为“人造卫星”）占据。
Novaya Gazeta was the last major independent media outlet in the country, and they'd stopped reporting on the war to figure out their next move.
《新报》是该国最后一家主要的独立媒体，他们已经停止报道战争，以找出下一步行动。
Just days into that pause, a story fell into Nikita's lap that would reshape the paper's entire approach to their coverage.
停顿几天后，尼基塔得到了一篇报道，这篇报道将重塑该报的整个报道方式。
He was sent audio recordings of police brutality.
他收到了警察暴行的录音。
The recordings had been made secretly by Russian civilians-- women, specifically-- many from a feminist anti-war group, who'd been out protesting the Russian invasion one afternoon in early March and were taken into police custody.
这些录音是由俄罗斯平民（特别是女性）秘密录制的，其中许多人来自女权主义反战组织，她们在三月初的一个下午外出抗议俄罗斯入侵，并被警方拘留。
Hours later, Nikita listened to it.
几个小时后，尼基塔听到了。
It was during the night, and I just had to wake some of my colleagues up to help me with this recording.
那是在晚上，我不得不叫醒一些同事来帮助我录音。
That's not any news for us that people are tortured in police departments and so on.
人们在警察部门等机构遭受酷刑，这对我们来说不是什么新闻。
But just before the 8th of March, before the International Women's Day and on a peaceful protest like that, policemen tried to torture and beat young women students-- that was shocking.
但就在3月8日之前，国际妇女节之前，在这样的和平抗议中，警察试图折磨和殴打年轻女学生，这令人震惊。
It was shocking to them, because peaceful protests are legal in Russia.
这让他们感到震惊，因为和平抗议在俄罗斯是合法的。
And up till now, there wasn't such blatant evidence of this kind of misogyny and violence directed at young women, college students, feminists.
到目前为止，还没有如此明显的证据表明这种针对年轻女性、大学生、女权主义者的厌女症和暴力行为。
What was the discussion inside your newsroom about the importance of running this?
您的新闻编辑室对运行此项目的重要性进行了哪些讨论？
Their reaction was just shit, fuck, that shit is fucked up.
他们的反应就是狗屎，操，操蛋。
That was the reaction.
这就是反应。
(CHUCKLING) OK.
（笑）好吧。
Nikita Kondratiev (CHUCKLING) Nothing else.
尼基塔·康德拉季耶夫（咯咯笑）：没有别的了。
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
The point is that this is an important story.
重点是这是一个重要的故事。
We have to report it.
我们必须报告它。
Important enough, they decided to start publishing again.
足够重要的是，他们决定重新开始出版。
This was Novaya Gazeta's first big multi-part story.
这是《Novaya Gazeta》的第一个大型多部分故事。
It is explicitly not set in Ukraine or talking to Ukrainians about the war, but instead, about Russian resistance to the same war-- the one they had to shut up about.
它显然不是以乌克兰为背景，也不是与乌克兰人谈论这场战争，而是关于俄罗斯对同一场战争的抵抗——那场他们不得不闭嘴的战争。
I'm going to play you some of these recordings, because this was news, even for veteran journalists like Nikita, who've seen and reported on corrupt and shockingly dark stuff.
我将给你们播放其中一些录音，因为这就是新闻，即使对于像尼基塔这样的资深记者来说也是如此，他们见过并报道过腐败和令人震惊的黑暗事物。
I also want to play these, because in them, you can hear the variety of ways that the protesters deal with the cops.
我也想播放这些，因为在它们中，你可以听到抗议者与警察打交道的各种方式。
Their personalities are so present.
他们的个性是如此存在。
They don't cower.
他们不会畏缩。
In fact, they really do the opposite.
事实上，他们确实做了相反的事情。
They assert who they are in the face of real violence.
他们在面对真正的暴力时坚持自己的身份。
A quick warning-- this probably isn't right for kids to be listening to.
快速警告——这可能不适合孩子们听。
Audio is hard to hear and in Russian.
音频很难听，而且是俄语。
But the protester has just been asked for her name and gives it-- Aleksandra Kaluzhskikh.
但抗议者刚刚被问及她的名字，她给出了她的名字——亚历山德拉·卡卢日斯基赫(Aleksandra Kaluzhskikh)。
Aleksandra was one of 30 protesters brought from a square in Moscow to this precinct in Bratayevo that day, and she anticipated making this recording.
亚历山德拉是当天从莫斯科一个广场带到布拉塔耶沃这一地区的 30 名抗议者之一，她预计会录制这段录音。
She brought two phones with her to the precinct-- one old broken one, a decoy for the police, who actually do take the phone and hurl it at the wall, and another phone she hid in her pocket to make this recording.
她带着两部手机来到分局——一部旧的坏了，是警察的诱饵，警察确实拿走了手机并将其扔到墙上，另一部手机藏在口袋里录制这段录音。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Robyn Semien She's asked, where do you live?
[俄语] Robyn Semien 她问，你住在哪里？
Aleksandra says, um, how do I say it?
亚历山德拉说，嗯，我该怎么说呢？
Well, see, the 51st.
嗯，看，51号。
The 51st is the right to remain silent in Russia.
第51条是在俄罗斯保持沉默的权利。
This makes the male officer angry.
这让男警官很生气。
And he hits her-- the first of many in the recording.
他打了她——这是录音中许多打她的第一例。
You can hear the muffled sound.
你可以听到低沉的声音。
It's like a crack.
就像一条裂缝。
[SMACK] Next time, it'll be even harder, he says before hitting her again.
[SMACK]下次，会更难，他在再次打她之前说道。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Lots of this audio is odd, because it's filled with this kind of exposition by the police.
[说俄语]这段音频的很多内容都很奇怪，因为里面充满了警察的这种解释。
Something happens, and before Aleksandra can do it herself, the police narrate through it, like they're performing for a recording they don't know they're making.
发生了一些事情，在亚历山德拉自己动手之前，警察通过它进行了叙述，就像他们正在为他们不知道自己正在录制的录音表演一样。
Like, one officer says out loud, what is your goal?
就像，一名警官大声说，你的目标是什么？
This will only get exponentially worse for you.
这对你来说只会变得更加糟糕。
And Aleksandra asked, point blank, are you threatening me?
亚历山德拉直截了当地问，你在威胁我吗？
And the officer, as if he is reading lines from a bad script, says, yes, I'm threatening you.
这位警官就像在读一个糟糕的剧本中的台词一样，说，是的，我在威胁你。
I'm threatening you with physical violence.
我用身体暴力威胁你。
When the officers don't narrate their own actions, Aleksandra does.
当警官们不讲述自己的行为时，亚历山德拉就会讲述。
And she tries to appeal to their sense of reason.
她试图唤起他们的理性感。
She asks one female officer, is this normal?
她问一位女警官，这正常吗？
You're fine with this, watching this happen?
你对此感到满意吗，看着这一切发生？
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Robyn Semien Perfectly fine, the female officer responds.
[俄语] Robyn Semien 很好，女警官回答道。
Another officer erupts.
另一名军官爆发了。
Look at yourself!
看看你自己！
Fuck.
他妈的。
Your fucking tits, hanging like goddamn utters.
你他妈的奶子，像该死的话语一样悬挂着。
Look at yourself, fucking monkey.
看看你自己，该死的猴子。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Robyn Semien Place of study?
[说俄语] Robyn Semien 学习地点？
The woman officer asks, like nothing happened.
女警官装作什么都没发生一样问道。
The officer's language is so obscene, it's embarrassing to quote it.
这位官员的语言是如此猥亵，引用起来很尴尬。
Another protester told me she was more surprised by that-- by their language-- than by being hit.
另一位抗议者告诉我，她对此更惊讶——他们的语言——而不是被击中。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Robyn Semien Female officer-- how did you find out about the protest?
[俄语] Robyn Semien 女警官——您是如何得知抗议活动的？
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Robyn Semien Aleksandra-- ugh, I refuse to answer.
[俄语] Robyn Semien Aleksandra——呃，我拒绝回答。
The 51st.
51号。
Female officer-- you're all fucked in the head.
女警官——你们脑子都被操坏了。
All of you are fucked up.
你们全都完蛋了。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Robyn Semien Aleksandra-- a man is beating me in front of you, and I'm the one who's fucked up?
[俄语] Robyn Semien Aleksandra——一个男人在你面前殴打我，而我就是那个被搞砸的人？
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Robyn Semien Female officer-- yeah, yeah.
[俄语] Robyn Semien 女军官——是的，是的。
Listening, I worried what these officers would do if they discovered Aleksandra was recording them.
听着，我担心如果这些警官发现亚历山德拉在录音，他们会怎么做。
They're such hotheads.
他们真是太鲁莽了。
Nikita thinks, though he isn't sure, that some of the police were probably Center E Police, a specialized unit who are known for their brutal interrogation tactics.
尼基塔认为，虽然他不确定，但其中一些警察可能是 E 中心警察，这是一个以残酷审讯策略而闻名的专业单位。
Center E is the center for combating extremism.
E中心是打击极端主义的中心。
In the past, extremism meant terrorists.
过去，极端主义就意味着恐怖分子。
Today, it means protesters.
今天，它指的是抗议者。
We contacted the precinct in Bratayevo about this.
我们就此联系了布拉塔耶沃辖区。
They said, no comment.
他们说，不予评论。
One officer in the precinct with Aleksandra makes it very clear who is behind his disdain.
与亚历山德拉一起辖区的一名警官非常清楚地表明了他的蔑视背后是谁。
He tells her--
他告诉她——
Putin told us to fuck all of you up, fucking dumb fucks.
普京告诉我们让你们都操蛋，他妈的蠢货。
That's it.
就是这样。
Putin's on our side.
普京站在我们这边。
You're the enemies of the Russian people, OK?
你们是俄罗斯人民的敌人，好吗？
Fucking enemies of the state.
他妈的国家敌人。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Robyn Semien We're going to fucking kill you, OK?
[俄语] Robyn Semien 我们他妈的要杀了你，好吗？
And that'll be it, finished.
就这样，完成了。
And then, they'll give us a prize for it, too.
然后，他们也会为此奖励我们一个奖品。
Putin's on our side.
普京站在我们这边。
That quote is the headline of the entire Novaya Gazeta series, in big bold letters, white font on black background-- "Putin is on Our Side."
这句话是整个《新报》系列的标题，黑底白字的大字——“普京站在我们这边”。
It's kind of a funny lead headline for the opposition paper to use the day it starts publishing again.
对于反对派报纸再次开始出版的那天来说，这是一个有趣的头条新闻。
If you don't read the story, all you see is, Novaya Gazeta, looking down, whistling, hands behind its back, the most obedient Putin-friendly paper ever.
如果你不读这个故事，你看到的只是《新报》，低着头，吹着口哨，双手背后，这是有史以来最听话的普京友好报纸。
I talked to another protester, who I'll call Sofia.
我与另一位抗议者交谈，我称她为索菲亚。
Sofia was in the precinct the same day as Aleksandra.
索菲亚和亚历山大同一天也在该辖区。
Sofia and Aleksandra first crossed paths in the police van.
索菲亚和亚历山德拉第一次在警车里相遇。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Robyn Semien That's Sofia's voice.
[俄语] Robyn Semien 这是索菲亚的声音。
She wasn't recording in the precinct, but at some point, she and Aleksandra get moved to a narrow room with four small tables, so she ended up on Aleksandra's recording.
她没有在该区域录音，但在某个时候，她和亚历山德拉被搬到一个有四张小桌子的狭窄房间，所以她最终出现在亚历山德拉的录音中。
She said she wasn't afraid of her intake officer.
她说她并不害怕她的接收官员。
He seemed OK-- conversational, even.
他看起来还不错——甚至很健谈。
Unlike Aleksandra, Sofia was pretty compliant and agreeable.
与亚历山德拉不同，索菲亚非常顺从且令人愉快。
When an officer asked for her passport, she gave it.
当一名官员要求她出示护照时，她给出了护照。
Where Sofia pushed back-- the police wanted to take her picture, and she knew that was illegal.
索菲亚拒绝了——警察想给她拍照，她知道这是违法的。
Besides, they had her passport with her picture in it.
此外，他们还有她的护照，上面有她的照片。
So she said no to having her picture taken.
所以她拒绝了拍照。
Yeah, of course!
是的，当然！
I know my rights!
我知道我的权利！
I live in Russia, yeah, but I know my rights.
是的，我住在俄罗斯，但我知道我的权利。
Sofia told me she was assaulted, too-- by a different officer, in a small room down a hallway, where there were a few other police in plainclothes.
索菲亚告诉我，她也遭到了另一名警察的袭击，地点是走廊尽头的一间小房间，那里还有其他几名便衣警察。
One, dressed in all black, dumped water on her and hit her.
其中一名身穿黑衣的人向她泼水并殴打她。
They were beating me on my head, and also, they choked me.
他们打我的头，还掐我的脖子。
Choked you?
噎死你了吗？
Sofia Yeah, with a bag, with a plastic bag.
索菲亚 是的，带着一个袋子，带着一个塑料袋。
Over your head?
在你头上吗？
Like, they put a plastic bag over your head?
比如，他们把塑料袋套在你头上？
Yeah, over my head.
是的，在我的头上。
Robyn Semien Oh, no. I'm sorry.
罗宾·塞米恩 哦，不。对不起。
Yeah, I know.
是的，我知道。
It's scary to hear.
听起来很可怕。
I know.
我知道。
I understand.
我明白。
Again, this was news, even to the journalists at Novaya Gazeta-- that women protesters, college students at that, would be treated this way.
这再次成为新闻，甚至对《新报》的记者来说也是如此——女性抗议者，也就是大学生，会受到这样的对待。
By the end of her recording, Aleksandra had been hit so often, she'd begun crying.
录音结束时，亚历山德拉经常受到打击，她开始哭泣。
Sofia was resigned in a different way.
索菲亚以另一种方式辞职。
She'd become more compliant, more agreeable, telling them--
她会变得更加顺从、更加和蔼可亲，告诉他们——
Where I am studying, and where I'm living, and also my phone number-- I gave them only my phone numbers, so they stopped.
我在哪里学习，我住在哪里，还有我的电话号码——我只给了他们我的电话号码，所以他们就停下来了。
I will be very well-behaved, she says.
我会表现得很乖，她说。
And then--
然后——
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Robyn Semien Do you want me to tell you my name again?
[俄语] Robyn Semien 你需要我再告诉你我的名字吗？
Or no?
或者没有？
Only one of the seven protesters in the Novaya Gazeta series wasn't assaulted.
《新报》系列报道中的七名抗议者中只有一名没有受到袭击。
There's a morbid equality to how they're treated, no matter how they acted.
无论他们的行为如何，他们都受到病态的平等对待。
Take Aleksandra.
以亚历山德拉为例。
She's stoic, recording like a technician, collecting evidence.
她很坚忍，像技术人员一样记录、收集证据。
Sofia killed them with kindness.
索菲亚善意地杀死了他们。
It didn't help.
这没有帮助。
I want to play one last recording.
我想播放最后一段录音。
It's my favorite, if you can have such a thing.
这是我最喜欢的，如果你能拥有这样的东西的话。
Because the protester is crazy-daring.
因为抗议者非常大胆。
She does not care.
她不在乎。
It's the subtext of her entire exchange.
这是她整个交流的潜台词。
Marina Morozova is a grad student studying neuroscience.
玛丽娜·莫罗佐娃 (Marina Morozova) 是一名神经科学研究生。
She did not have two phones.
她没有两部手机。
She just had one phone, which she expected the police to take.
她只有一部手机，她希望警察会拿走它。
For some reason, they didn't do that.
由于某种原因，他们没有这样做。
I don't know why, and nobody knows why.
我不知道为什么，也没有人知道为什么。
Just because maybe they were just fearless and stupid.
只是因为也许他们只是无所畏惧和愚蠢。
Marina's recording is particularly jarring, because she's as bubbly and unconcerned about being in police custody as she is being interviewed.
玛丽娜的录音特别刺耳，因为她在接受采访时表现得活泼且不关心被警方拘留。
She called the police "stupid" and "not very clever" a lot, talking to me, which surprised me, because I figured, it just doesn't seem safe to be badmouthing any Russian authority right now.
她在跟我说话时经常称警察“愚蠢”和“不太聪明”，这让我感到惊讶，因为我认为，现在唱衰任何俄罗斯当局似乎都不安全。
When the police officer's searching through your phone and you know that you're recording, are you nervous?
当警察搜查你的手机并且你知道你正在录音时，你会紧张吗？
I was smiling a lot, and it was very-- it made them very uncomfortable, because they saw me smiling, and they didn't understand why.
我经常微笑，这让他们非常不舒服，因为他们看到我微笑，但他们不明白为什么。
And I didn't-- I cannot say to them why I am smiling when they ask me.
我没有——我无法告诉他们当他们问我时我为什么微笑。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Marina Morozova [SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
[俄语] 玛丽娜·莫罗佐娃 [俄语]
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Robyn Semien The officer asks, what are you smiling about?
[俄语] Robyn Semien 警官问，你在笑什么？
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Robyn Semien What's so funny?
[俄语] Robyn Semien 有什么好笑的？
Should we take you to the crazy house?
我们应该带你去疯狂的房子吗？
Are you sick or something?
你是生病了还是怎么的？
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Female Officer [SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
[俄语] 女警官 [俄语]
A woman officer says, you are the one who looks stupid right now, not us.
一位女警官说，现在看起来愚蠢的是你，而不是我们。
Marina says, well, that's what you think.
玛丽娜说，好吧，这就是你的想法。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Robyn Semien She provokes them, dodges their questions.
[俄语] Robyn Semien 她激怒了他们，回避了他们的问题。
How did you hear about the rally?
您是如何得知集会的消息的？
A female officer asks.
一名女军官问道。
What rally?
什么集会？
I don't know what rally you're talking about, Marina says.
“我不知道你在说什么集会，”玛丽娜说。
A male officer asks, you're trying to play dumb now.
一名男警官问，你现在想装傻吗？
You were just walking around the center of Moscow for no reason?
你无缘无故地在莫斯科市中心闲逛？
Another officer says, we've never once detained a person for nothing before.
另一位警官说，我们以前从来没有无缘无故地拘留过一个人。
We always have a reason.
我们总是有理由的。
We have never not had a reason.
我们从来没有没有理由。
Everybody gets nabbed for something, and then they are always yelling and screaming about it.
每个人都会因为某事被抓，然后他们总是为此大喊大叫。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Officer [SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
[讲俄语] 警官 [讲俄语]
Yes, yes, I know, Marina shoots back.
是的，是的，我知道，玛丽娜反击道。
The police are doing a great job.
警察做得很好。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Marina Morozova [SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
[俄语] 玛丽娜·莫罗佐娃 [俄语]
Robyn Semien You're really antagonizing them.
罗宾·塞米恩（Robyn Semien）：你真的在和他们作对。
Actually, I wasn't antagonizing, I think.
其实，我想，我并没有反抗。
I just said, like, double messages.
我只是说了，双重信息。
[CHUCKLES] It was just double message.
[笑]这只是双重信息。
I think maybe they just-- they even didn't understand this joke.
我想也许他们只是——他们甚至不明白这个笑话。
The joke being, the police are doing a great job.
开玩笑的是，警察做得很好。
Marina knew about people being beaten.
玛丽娜知道有人被殴打。
She was in a group chat with other protesters who had been interrogated ahead of her.
她正在与其他在她之前接受审讯的抗议者进行群聊。
And your mentality is, I know what's going to happen, so I feel prepared.
你的心态是，我知道会发生什么，所以我做好了准备。
That's what you're thinking?
你是这么想的吗？
Actually, I thought that I'm more prepared than I actually was.
事实上，我以为我比实际准备得更充分。
We listened to her recording together.
我们一起听她的录音。
And the moment where Marina realizes she may be in over her head comes on the heels of yet another dig at police.
就在玛丽娜意识到自己可能陷入困境的那一刻，紧接着警察又遭到了一次挖苦。
I like this moment a lot, and my friends like this moment.
我很喜欢这一刻，我的朋友们也很喜欢这一刻。
Which moment?
哪一刻？
Which moment?
哪一刻？
Marina Morozova 6 minutes 42 seconds--
玛丽娜·莫罗佐娃 6分42秒——
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Female Officer [SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
[俄语] 女警官 [俄语]
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Robyn Semien Female officer asks, what college?
[俄语] Robyn Semien 女警官问，什么大学？
Hurry up and tell us.
快点告诉我们吧。
Marina-- why do you need to know?
玛丽娜——你为什么需要知道？
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Female Officer [SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
[俄语] 女警官 [俄语]
Are you actually surprised?
你真的很惊讶吗？
The male officer asks.
男军官问道。
The female officer says, I want to apply there.
女官员说，我想去那里申请。
Marina says, I don't think you'll get in.
玛丽娜说，我认为你不会进去。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Robyn Semien Things escalate from there.
[俄语] Robyn Semien 事情从那里开始升级。
Marina says the officer kicked her, then unholstered his gun.
玛丽娜说，警察踢了她，然后拔出了枪。
He waved it at her head.
他朝她的头挥了挥。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Marina Morozova Ouch!
[俄语] 玛丽娜·莫罗佐娃 哎呀！
It didn't look like he had the safety on, or you were worried that he didn't have the safety.
看起来他没有带安全装置，或者你担心他没有安全装置。
I wasn't sure that gun was on safe, and I wasn't sure that there could not be some accident.
我不确定枪是否安全，也不确定会不会发生什么意外。
And it was really scary for me.
这对我来说真的很可怕。
The moment with the gun-- I was prepared to be beaten, but I wasn't prepared for the gun.
拿着枪的那一刻——我已经做好了挨打的准备，但我没有准备好面对枪。
Because he could just make a mistake, and it was scary.
因为他可能会犯错误，而且这很可怕。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Marina Morozova (CRYING) [SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
[说俄语] Marina Morozova（哭泣）[说俄语]
Marina's saying, you're not even a man, you know that?
玛丽娜说，你根本就不是男人，你知道吗？
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Robyn Semien Yeah, I'm a fucking beast, he says.
[俄语] Robyn Semien 是的，我他妈的是一头野兽，他说。
And you're not a fucking woman.
而且你他妈也不是个女人。
You're just an imbecile.
你只是个白痴。
I ought to blow your brains out, you piece of shit.
我应该打爆你的脑袋，你这个混蛋。
You're fucking scum.
你他妈就是个渣。
Within weeks of that afternoon at the precinct, Vladimir Putin gave a speech classifying Russians into two categories-- true patriots, and pro-West scum and traders, who should be spit out like gnats, he said, cleansed from society.
那天下午几周后，弗拉基米尔·普京在该辖区发表了一场演讲，将俄罗斯人分为两类——真正的爱国者、亲西方的败类和商人，他说，这些人应该像蚊虫一样被吐出来，从社会中清除。
Marina said she heard it, especially the part about scum and traitors.
玛丽娜说她听到了，尤其是关于人渣和叛徒的部分。
And she knew he was talking about her, and she felt bad.
她知道他在谈论她，她感觉很糟糕。
Things are getting worse, she said, for all Russians.
她说，对于所有俄罗斯人来说，情况正在变得更糟。
So this story in Novaya Gazeta became a model for other stories for how to talk about the war without getting shut down.
因此，《新报》上的这个故事成为了其他故事如何在不被停刊的情况下谈论战争的典范。
They talked to mothers whose sons were captured in Ukraine, and covered funerals of fallen soldiers from small Russian towns.
他们与儿子在乌克兰被俘的母亲们进行了交谈，并报道了俄罗斯小镇阵亡士兵的葬礼。
One of their more daring attempts-- Nikita calls it "the golden one"-- was to send one of their star reporters to the front lines.
他们更大胆的尝试之一——尼基塔称之为“黄金尝试”——就是派一名明星记者到前线。
Nikita said, they thought since everything the reporter described she'd seen herself with her own eyes, the report couldn't be considered false information.
尼基塔说，他们认为记者所描述的一切都是她亲眼所见，因此该报道不能被视为虚假信息。
But it didn't work.
但这没有用。
They had to take that one down.
他们必须把那个拿下来。
I talked to Nikita about this in mid-March.
三月中旬我和尼基塔谈过这件事。
Have there been moments when you thought that your paper-- that Novaya Gazeta might be shut down?
您是否曾想过您的报纸《新报》可能会被关闭？
How often are you having that thought?
你多久有一次这样的想法？
Once a month.
每月一次。
Once a month, our editor-in-chief, Mr. Muratov, approaches us and says, I think it's time to close the paper.
每个月，我们的主编穆拉托夫先生都会对我们说，我想是时候关闭报纸了。
But it never happens.
但它永远不会发生。
Like, it exists thirty years already.
就像，它已经存在三十年了。
And every month, someone threatens us, someone tries to kill us, and we are still working.
每个月，有人威胁我们，有人试图杀死我们，但我们仍然在工作。
I think that's a miracle.
我认为这是一个奇迹。
Why do you think you haven't been forced to close yet?
您认为为什么您还没有被迫关闭？
We do not know why the government haven't shut us down yet.
我们不知道为什么政府还没有关闭我们。
We have no freaking idea why this is not happening.
我们完全不知道为什么这种情况没有发生。
Every morning, we wake up, and we check our website.
每天早上，我们醒来，都会检查我们的网站。
And every morning, we are wondering.
每天早上，我们都在想。
We have no idea.
我们不知道。
Maybe it's the Nobel Prize.
也许这就是诺贝尔奖。
Maybe Mr. Putin reads us in the evenings, I hope, and he just did not want to lose his favorite newspaper.
我希望普京先生可能会在晚上阅读我们的文章，他只是不想失去他最喜欢的报纸。
[CHUCKLES] I don't know.
[笑]我不知道。
Really, we have no idea.
真的，我们不知道。
The procedure for shutting down a media outlet in Russia is this-- a federal agency, a media watchdog, sends you a warning in writing.
在俄罗斯关闭媒体机构的程序是这样的——一个联邦机构，一个媒体监管机构，向你发出书面警告。
If you get two or more of these in a year, you can lose your reporting license.
如果您在一年内获得两次或两次以上此类报告，您可能会失去报告许可证。
Novaya Gazeta got two warnings within days-- for not properly identifying a foreign non-profit organization in their reporting.
《新报》在几天之内就收到了两次警告——因为在报道中没有正确识别外国非营利组织。
The warnings, Nikita said, were something exceptional, in the sense that normally, they'd just be fined for a small mistake like that.
尼基塔说，这些警告是很特殊的，因为通常情况下，他们只会因为这样的小错误而被罚款。
These warnings didn't even bother to say which article got it wrong.
这些警告甚至懒得说哪一篇文章出错了。
The first warning was on March 22, the same day editor-in-chief Dmitry Muratov announced he'd be auctioning his Nobel Prize and giving the proceeds to Ukraine.
第一个警告是在 3 月 22 日，当天主编德米特里·穆拉托夫 (Dmitry Muratov) 宣布他将拍卖他的诺贝尔奖，并将所得收益捐赠给乌克兰。
The theory is, Putin's people didn't like that.
理论上来说，普京的人民不喜欢这样。
But please remember, Nikita tells me, it's just a theory.
但请记住，尼基塔告诉我，这只是一个理论。
On Monday, March 28, the paper stopped publishing news stories.
3 月 28 日星期一，该报停止发表新闻报道。
"We are suspending work," they posted online-- and in smaller writing, a promise to readers-- to continue reporting after the end of the, quote, "special operation" on the territory in Ukraine.
他们在网上发帖称，“我们正在暂停工作”，并以较小的文字向读者承诺，将在乌克兰境内的“特别行动”结束后继续进行报道。
Robyn Semien is one of the producers of our show.
罗宾·塞米恩 (Robyn Semien) 是我们节目的制片人之一。
Our program was produced today by Diane Wu.
我们今天的节目是由 Diane Wu 制作的。
The people who put together today's program include Chris Benderev, Susan Burton, Ben Calhoun, Zoe Chace, Dana Chivvis, Sean Cole, Michael Comite, Aviva DeKornfeld, Seth Lind, Michelle Navarro, Stowe Nelson, Katherine Rae Mondo, Will Peischel, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, Laura Starcheski, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, and Julie Whitaker.
今天节目的制作人包括 Chris Benderev、Susan Burton、Ben Calhoun、Zoe Chace、Dana Chivvis、Sean Cole、Michael Comite、Aviva DeKornfeld、Seth Lind、Michelle Navarro、Stowe Nelson、Katherine Rae Mondo、Will Peischel、Robyn Semien、Alissa Shipp、Laura Starcheski、Christopher Swetala、Matt Tierney 和 Julie Whitaker。
Our managing editor is Sarah Abdurrahman, our senior editor is David Kestenbaum, our executive editor is Emanuele Berry.
我们的总编辑是 Sarah Abdurrahman，我们的高级编辑是 David Kestenbaum，我们的执行编辑是 Emanuele Berry。
Our field producer in Hungary, Mate Halmos; Hungarian interpretation and translation by Anna Klaniczay, Ezster Farkas, and Vera Bakonyi-Tánczos; Russian interpretation and translation by Bela Shayevich.
我们在匈牙利的现场制作人 Mate Halmos； Anna Klaniczay、Ezster Farkas 和 Vera Bakonyi-Tánczos 进行匈牙利语口译和笔译；俄语口译和笔译由贝拉·沙耶维奇 (Bela Shayevich) 负责。
Thanks also today to Mark Krotov at N+1, Calum Nicholson, Danielle Elliot, Andrej [INAUDIBLE], Zoltan Fleck, Andras Lederer, Rita Bolla, Marton Gyongyosi, Balint Ruff, Zoltan Feher, Anita Komuves, Ábel Bojár, Agnes Urban, Adam Gyurcsik, Zoltan Kovacs, Sandar Lederer, Kelefa Sanneh, Kim Scheppele, Katalin Rózsa, Zoltán Rácz, András Máhr, and Nora Schultz.
今天还要感谢 N+1 的 Mark Krotov、Calum Nicholson、Danielle Elliot、Andrej [听不清]、Zoltan Fleck、Andras Lederer、Rita Bolla、Marton Gyongyosi、Balint Ruff、Zoltan Feher、Anita Komuves、Ábel Bojár、Agnes Urban、Adam Gyurcsik、Zoltan Kovacs、Sandar Lederer、Kelefa Sanneh、Kim Scheppele、Katalin Rózsa、Zoltán Rácz、András Máhr 和 Nora Schultz。
Our website-- ThisAmericanLife.org, where you can stream our archive of over 750 episodes for absolutely free.
我们的网站 -- ThisAmericanLife.org，您可以在其中完全免费地观看我们的 750 多集档案。
Also, there's videos, there's lists of favorite shows, if you're looking for something to listen to.
此外，如果您正在寻找可听的内容，还有视频和最喜欢的节目列表。
There's tons of other stuff there.
那里还有很多其他东西。
Again-- ThisAmericanLife.org.
再次——ThisAmericanLife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia, who told me this piece of gossip this week.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生，他本周告诉了我这个八卦。
I don't know if you've heard this one.
我不知道你是否听说过这句话。
He told me the word, equality, has taken a lover of the same sex.
他告诉我，平等这个词已经被同性情人接受了。
The word, equality, is a little bit gay.
平等这个词有点同性恋。
I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life.
我是艾拉·格拉斯，下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。