763: The Other Mr. President - This American Life

You are using an outdated browser.

您正在使用过时的浏览器。

Please upgrade your browser or activate Google Chrome Frame to improve your experience.

请升级您的浏览器或激活 Google Chrome 浏览器内嵌框架以改善您的体验。

Sign up for a free Life Partners trial, and you can watch the video “A Night of Stories and Improv.”

注册免费试用《Life Partners》，您可以观看视频“故事与即兴表演之夜”。

00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #763 | February 25, 2022 763: The Other Mr. President Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.

00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 763 集 | 2022 年 2 月 25 日 763：另一个总统先生 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作，旨在让人们听到。

If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.

如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。

Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.

文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。

Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.

请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。

Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.

序言：序言 来自 WBEZ 芝加哥的 Ira Glass，这就是美国生活。

Hey, is that Richard?

嘿，那是理查德吗？

Richard Ensor Yeah, it is.

理查德·恩索尔 是的，确实如此。

Ira!

艾拉！

Yes.

是的。

Hi.

你好。

The day Russia invaded Ukraine, Thursday, at the very end of the day, I reached Richard Ensor, Ukraine correspondent for The Economist.

周四，俄罗斯入侵乌克兰的那天，当天快结束时，我联系到了《经济学人》驻乌克兰记者理查德·恩索尔。

He'd started the day in the capital, Kyiv, and spent much of the day traveling.

他在首都基辅开始了新的一天，大部分时间都在旅行。

I've got you on speaker phone.

我已经用免提电话接听你了。

I've just moved into my safe house.

我刚刚搬进我的安全屋。

Well, I'm in Lviv, close to the Polish border.

嗯，我在利沃夫，靠近波兰边境。

And in January I came here, and I rented a flat for three months on the off chance that all hell broke loose and there wasn't a spare-- there wouldn't be a spare flat in Lviv available.

一月份我来到这里，租了一套公寓三个月，以防万一一切都乱了，没有空余的公寓了——利沃夫不会有空余的公寓了。

Because this is the place that everyone was going to run.

因为这是所有人都要去奔跑的地方。

Wow.

哇。

Richard Ensor And so I've had this sort of set of keys in the back pocket of-- you know, just waiting in case catastrophe strikes.

理查德·恩索尔（Richard Ensor）：所以我在后口袋里放了一套钥匙——你知道，只是等待灾难发生的时候。

And catastrophe struck.

灾难降临了。

And so now when I'm tired and after one of the longest days in my life when you're coming home at 2:00 AM, I've got a place to lay my head.

所以现在，当我感到疲倦时，在经历了我一生中最长的一天之一后，当你凌晨 2:00 回家时，我就有了一个可以休息的地方。

That's incredible that you ended up having to use it and that you are using it.

令人难以置信的是您最终不得不使用它并且您正在使用它。

I called up a rental agency, and they asked me what color I wanted the bricks to be.

我打电话给租赁机构，他们问我想要砖块的颜色。

And I was just thinking, I hope I never have to see these walls.

我只是在想，我希望我永远不必看到这些墙。

So just give me what you got.

所以只要把你得到的给我就可以了。

With him was a woman that he met on the train who needed a place to stay before grabbing another train to Poland.

和他在一起的还有他在火车上遇到的一位女士，她在搭乘另一趟火车前往波兰之前需要一个住处。

The consequences of talking to the Western press are not clear, so she asked me to call her Natalie here on the radio.

与西方媒体交谈的后果尚不清楚，所以她让我在广播中称呼她为娜塔莉。

She's an English teacher, 25, a Ukrainian who grew up a few hours from Kyiv but moved to the city five years ago.

她是一名英语老师，25 岁​​，乌克兰人，在距离基辅几个小时车程的地方长大，但五年前搬到了这座城市。

And when she told me the long, frightening journey she had made that day, escaping the city while the Russians invaded, it wasn't one of those war stories where you think, oh, I can't imagine what it would be like to go through that.

当她告诉我那天她在俄罗斯人入侵时逃离这座城市，经历了漫长而可怕的旅程时，这并不是那些你会想的战争故事，哦，我无法想象经历那会是什么样子。

In fact, it was exactly the opposite.

事实上，事实恰恰相反。

For anybody who has ever lived in a decent-sized city, it is shockingly, instantly easy to imagine.

对于任何曾经生活在一个中等规模的城市的人来说，这是令人震惊的，立即容易想象的。

Every moment of it happens in such familiar kinds of places.

它的每一刻都发生在如此熟悉的地方。

She was not woken up by sounds of bombing, but by her stepfather calling on Skype from England where he lives.

她并不是被爆炸声吵醒的，而是被她的继父从他居住的英国通过 Skype 打来的电话吵醒的。

And he woke me up and said that Russians are bombing the airport.

他叫醒我并说俄罗斯人正在轰炸机场。

So I-- you know, I was pretty sleepy, and I didn't believe it.

所以我——你知道，我很困，我不相信。

And then I heard the jets.

然后我听到喷气式飞机的声音。

And I was just freaking out.

我简直吓坏了。

I was panicking.

我很惊慌。

They were bombing somewhere.

他们正在某处进行轰炸。

It was pretty close to me.

它离我很近。

And it was pretty terrifying.

这非常可怕。

Terrifying, she says, but a very specific kind of terrifying that you don't usually run into.

她说，很可怕，但这是一种你通常不会遇到的非常特殊的恐惧。

I felt like a baby.

我感觉自己像个婴儿。

Actually-- I'm sorry.

事实上——我很抱歉。

I felt like a baby because I was alone in the darkness of the morning-- empty streets, some strange sounds.

我感觉自己像个婴儿，因为早晨的黑暗中我独自一人——空荡荡的街道，一些奇怪的声音。

Nobody is around, and only my stepfather staring at me from the UK on the screen.

周围没有人，只有我的继父在屏幕上从英国盯着我。

You know, I felt like I'm not a woman, I'm a baby.

你知道，我觉得我不是一个女人，我是一个婴儿。

First of all, you are not able to protect yourself.

首先，你没有能力保护自己。

You are not able to do anything because you're a baby.

你什么也做不了，因为你还是个婴儿。

You're helpless.

你很无助。

I see.

我懂了。

Yeah.

是的。

Natalie And yeah.

娜塔莉 是的。

You just want somebody to come and to save you.

你只是希望有人来拯救你。

She says she didn't want to feel this way for another minute, so she packed her things and called some friends who have a car, told them, we have to get out of the city really fast.

她说她不想再有这种感觉了，所以她收拾好东西，打电话给一些有车的朋友，告诉他们，我们必须尽快离开这座城市。

They headed over to pick her up.

他们过去接她。

It's not far, but they got stuck in traffic.

距离并不远，但他们却遇到了交通堵塞。

So many people were trying to flee.

这么多人试图逃离。

Finally when they got to her, they decided to head to a suburb called Irpin just outside Kyiv, maybe 20 miles.

最后，当他们找到她时，他们决定前往基辅郊外一个叫伊尔平的郊区，大约 20 英里。

Should be a 40-minute drive on a normal day.

正常情况下开车 40 分钟即可。

One of the friends' parents have a house.

一位朋友的父母有一所房子。

Because there is a cellar, you know.

因为有一个地窖，你知道。

And again, we got stuck in traffic because people were panicking, as we did.

再一次，我们陷入了交通堵塞，因为人们和我们一样惊慌失措。

And on the way we saw the Russians' helicopters.

在路上我们看到了俄罗斯人的直升机。

The helicopters were shooting, she says.

她说，直升机正在射击。

Turns out that Irpin was close to one of the big battles in Kyiv that first day over an airport in Hostomel.

事实证明，伊尔平在第一天就接近基辅霍斯托梅尔机场的一场重大战斗。

Russians sent helicopters to seize it, hoping presumably to use it to bring in troops and supplies to take the city.

俄罗斯人派出直升机去占领它，希望利用它来运送部队和物资来占领这座城市。

At one point during the day it was reported that they had captured the airport, then later that Ukrainian soldiers surrounded them and took it back.

当天有报道称他们占领了机场，后来乌克兰士兵包围了他们并将其夺回。

At this point the Russians seem to have it again.

此时俄罗斯人似乎又得逞了。

So anyway, that is what Natalie and her friends were driving towards.

不管怎样，这就是娜塔莉和她的朋友们所努力的方向。

Seeing this, it wasn't terrifying anymore because we were in the constant state of shock.

看到这里，一切都不再可怕了，因为我们一直处于震惊之中。

We were just staring at it, just staring.

我们只是盯着它，只是盯着它。

And we were just trying to save our lives.

我们只是想拯救我们的生命。

That's it.

就是这样。

They got to the friend's house, the woman with the cellar, took a look around.

他们到了朋友家，那位掌管地窖的女士四处看了看。

They were so close to all this fighting, and Natalie decided this isn't right.

他们距离这场战斗如此之近，娜塔莉认为这是不对的。

She was going to turn around.

她正要转身。

She was going to undo everything she had spent the morning doing, go back to Kyiv where she'd just come from and try to get a train from there to the border, which would mean leaving a place where at least there would be some shelter and heading into who knows what.

她要取消早上所做的一切，回到她刚来的基辅，尝试从那里坐火车到边境，这意味着要离开一个至少有庇护所的地方，前往谁知道会发生什么。

It was hard to decide.

很难决定。

Because everybody was saying, no, stay.

因为每个人都说，不，留下来。

You just have to stay.

你只需要留下来。

But I was listening to my inner voice.

但我正在倾听自己内心的声音。

I was just-- I needed to get to Poland, to get out of the country, or at least to west of Ukraine.

我只是——我需要去波兰，离开这个国家，或者至少去乌克兰西部。

We were afraid that maybe the borders will be closed soon.

我们担心边界可能很快就会关闭。

It is my point of view.

这是我的观点。

When you move, you stay alive.

当你移动时，你就保持活力。

It is my point of view.

这是我的观点。

I just-- you know, I'm also pretty anxious, and I just feel better when I'm doing something.

我只是——你知道，我也很焦虑，当我做某事时我感觉更好。

When I'm on the move, that means I'm protecting myself.

当我在移动时，这意味着我在保护自己。

One guy decided to go with her, somebody who she'd never met before that day but who seemed like a rational guy.

一个人决定和她一起去，那个人在那天之前她从未见过，但看起来是个理性的人。

She said you want to stick with rational people in emergency situations.

她说在紧急情况下你应该和理性的人在一起。

The friends drove them to the train station, a local train that could take them back to Kyiv.

朋友们开车送他们去火车站，当地的火车可以带他们返回基辅。

And when they arrived in Kyiv they hoped to take the subway, but Kyiv's subways were closed because they include these stations that are deep underground that double as bomb shelters.

当他们到达基辅时，他们希望乘坐地铁，但基辅的地铁被关闭了，因为其中包括这些位于地下深处的车站，这些车站兼作防空洞。

And that's what they were being used for.

这就是它们的用途。

And we had to walk.

我们必须步行。

We had to walk, and we were pretty close to the area where military was.

我们必须步行，而且我们离军事区很近。

Sorry, I cannot name it exactly because I was just busy running.

抱歉，我无法准确命名，因为我正忙着跑步。

Were you literally running?

你真的在跑步吗？

Natalie Let's say jogging.

娜塔莉 比如说慢跑。

They finally get to the train station with trains that could take them west to the border.

他们终于到达了火车站，火车可以带他们向西到达边境。

They had no tickets.

他们没有门票。

It was mobbed.

它被围攻了。

Natalie had money ready in case she needed to bribe somebody to get on a train, but it was such a moment of solidarity.

娜塔莉准备好了钱，以防她需要贿赂某人才能上火车，但这是一个团结的时刻。

The conductors just let people on without tickets.

售票员只是让人们在没有门票的情况下上车。

Richard, The Economist correspondent, was on that train with her, and he told me he had never been in a refugee situation with so many cats.

《经济学人》记者理查德和她一起坐火车，他告诉我，他从来没有遇到过和这么多猫在一起的难民处境。

He said he felt like everybody on the train brought their cat.

他说他觉得火车上的每个人都带着他们的猫。

Eight hours later she was halfway across the country, 300 miles away, in Lviv, far from the fighting.

八小时后，她到达了半个国家，300 英里外的利沃夫，远离战火。

Anything actually may happen, and everything is changing so fast.

实际上任何事情都可能发生，而且一切都变化得如此之快。

Like it was just two days ago, she told me, she did a photo shoot with a friend in the center of Kyiv.

她告诉我，就像两天前一样，她和一位朋友在基辅市中心拍了一张照片。

It was sunny, blue sky.

天气晴朗，天空蔚蓝。

She bought me some flowers, tulips or something.

她给我买了一些花，郁金香什么的。

And we were just enjoying and having coffee.

我们只是享受并喝咖啡。

And now I am a, like, almost refugee.

现在我几乎是一个难民。

It was hard to believe it happened.

很难相信这件事发生了。

Even though she was somebody who had thought Putin would invade and she thought that he would quickly try to take Kyiv-- she'd actually been in the process of getting a visa to get out-- but she said most people didn't believe that, told themselves it wasn't happening.

尽管她认为普京会入侵，而且她认为他会很快占领基辅——她实际上正在获得出境签证——但她说大多数人不相信这一点，告诉自己这不会发生。

You know, it is like a little lie to yourself to feel safer.

你知道，这就像对自己撒个小谎，让自己感觉更安全。

I got back on the line with Richard from The Economist.

我又接通了《经济学人》的理查德。

He's actually talked to lots of Ukrainians about this and pointed out that the country's media and its president for weeks have been saying nothing is going to happen.

事实上，他已经与很多乌克兰人谈论过此事，并指出该国媒体和总统几周来一直表示不会发生任何事情。

Putin was just posturing.

普京只是故作姿态。

And unless you read the foreign press, you probably wouldn't believe Putin was going to invade.

除非你阅读外国媒体，否则你可能不会相信普京会入侵。

Also he says--

他还说——

The first thing that any Ukrainian will tell you is that their country has been at war for eight years.

任何乌克兰人都会告诉你的第一件事是他们的国家已经处于战争状态八年了。

And so the idea that this or that Russian battalion coming near their border suddenly means that an invasion is likely-- they'll say the invasion happened in 2014.

因此，如果这个或那个俄罗斯营突然靠近他们的边境，就意味着有可能发生入侵——他们会说入侵发生在 2014 年。

2014 is when the Russian military took Crimea from Ukraine and pro-Russian separatists in two Ukrainian territories seceded from the country.

2014年，俄罗斯军队从乌克兰手中夺取了克里米亚，两个乌克兰领土上的亲俄分裂分子也脱离了该国。

And there have been all manner of different false alarms and ceasefires coming and going-- threats, crazy rhetoric-- since then.

从那时起，各种各样的误报和停火不断出现——威胁、疯狂的言论。

And so it's such a roller coaster ride, the idea that-- you know, in their minds, the idea that a bunch of troops turning up on the border changes the game for them, it's just the latest chess move or the latest drama.

所以这就像过山车一样，你知道，在他们看来，一群军队出现在边境改变了他们的游戏规则，这只是最新的棋步或最新的戏剧。

And a lot of people have worked out a great recipe for happiness, which is just turning off the timeline and not reading any of this.

很多人已经想出了一个幸福的秘诀，那就是关掉时间线，不读任何这篇文章。

What did you see three months ago that convinced you that this might happen and you got an apartment on the other side of the country?

三个月前你看到了什么，让你确信这可能会发生，并且你在国家的另一边拥有了一套公寓？

Well, the thing that really worried me was-- it wasn't any troop movements.

嗯，真正让我担心的是——没有任何部队调动。

It was the negotiations.

这是谈判。

On December the 17th, Russia unveiled a list of demands.

12月17日，俄罗斯公布了一份要求清单。

And you read these demands, and you start to say, oh my god, they don't care, because they're asking for things that they know they can't get.

当你读到这些要求时，你开始说，天哪，他们不在乎，因为他们所要求的东西他们知道自己无法得到。

And the only kind of person who conducts those kinds of negotiations is someone who doesn't really care whether the negotiations succeed or fail.

唯一进行此类谈判的人是那些并不真正关心谈判成功或失败的人。

And when I saw that, that's when I realized they're just going through the motions.

当我看到这一点时，我意识到他们只是走走过场。

They're not serious about these negotiations, but they are serious about the troops on the border.

他们对这些谈判并不认真，但对边境的军队却很认真。

It's so crazy, though.

但这太疯狂了。

You have an entire country with millions of people who basically just have to guess what one man is going to do.

整个国家有数百万人，他们基本上只需要猜测一个人会做什么。

Yeah.

是的。

And maybe more than just an entire country.

也许不仅仅是整个国家。

Maybe the whole world.

也许是整个世界。

Today on our program we have an episode of our show that we put together back in 2017 about that man, Vladimir Putin.

今天，我们的节目中有一集是我们在 2017 年制作的，讲述的是弗拉基米尔·普京 (Vladimir Putin) 这个人。

At the time it was inspired by news that had people guessing what his intentions were and what he was thinking.

当时它的灵感来自于人们猜测他的意图和想法的新闻。

We wanted to understand him better.

我们想更好地了解他。

And there's one story we found that's Act One of today's show that I have to admit I've been thinking about for weeks as Putin amassed troops around the Ukrainian border.

我们发现了一个故事，这是今天节目的第一幕，我不得不承认，当普京在乌克兰边境周围集结军队时，我已经思考了好几个星期了。

It's this story about whether he came to power in 1999 by killing a few hundred innocent Russians.

这是一个关于他是否在 1999 年通过杀害数百名无辜俄罗斯人上台的故事。

So we have that.

所以我们就有了。

If you haven't heard it, you really should.

如果你还没有听说过，你真的应该听听。

And more, including what do Russians think of him?

还有更多，包括俄罗斯人如何看待他？

Stay with us.

留在我们身边。

Act One, Going In with a Bang.

第一幕，轰轰烈烈地进去。

So have you heard this story?

那么你听过这个故事吗？

This is something people speculated about years ago but now seems mostly forgotten.

这是人们多年前猜测的事情，但现在似乎几乎被遗忘了。

It happened right when Vladimir Putin was coming to power.

这件事发生在弗拉基米尔·普京(Vladimir Putin)上台之际。

This was back in 1999.

这已经是 1999 年的事情了。

Boris Yeltsin was president, running Russia.

鲍里斯·叶利钦担任总统，管理俄罗斯。

Putin was the prime minister-- not well known, not well liked, polling at 2% as a possible presidential candidate.

普京是总理，但知名度不高，也不受欢迎，作为可能的总统候选人的民意支持率为 2%。

And then-- Putin had only been prime minister for a month-- there was a series of bombings of apartment buildings in Moscow and elsewhere.

然后——普京担任总理才一个月——莫斯科和其他地方发生了一系列公寓楼爆炸事件。

300 people died.

300人死亡。

Putin blamed it on Chechen rebels, invaded Chechnya, started the Second Chechen War, which he won.

普京将其归咎于车臣叛军，入侵车臣，发动了第二次车臣战争，并赢得了胜利。

It was a popular war, catapulted him into the presidency.

这是一场民众战争，使他登上了总统宝座。

When he took office, he had 53% of the vote.

他上任时获得了53%的选票。

And even back then when he took office in 2000, there was a question.

甚至在他 2000 年上任时，就存在一个问题。

Did he bomb those buildings himself to create the pretext for the war and his own rise to power?

他自己轰炸这些建筑物是否是为了为战争和他自己的掌权创造借口？

If he did, of course it calls the legitimacy of his presidency into question in a big way, murdering his own constituents-- exactly the kinds of Russians that he claims to be serving and protecting as president.

如果他这样做了，当然会在很大程度上质疑他总统任期的合法性，谋杀他自己的选民——正是他声称作为总统服务和保护的俄罗斯人。

One of our producers, Robyn Semien, talked to reporters who covered this and reviewed the evidence with them.

我们的制片人之一罗宾·塞米恩 (Robyn Semien) 与报道此事的记者进行了交谈，并与他们一起审查了证据。

Before we get to the more mysterious aspects of the bombings, a quick summary of what happened.

在我们了解爆炸事件更神秘的方面之前，先快速总结一下所发生的事情。

The bombings came in fast succession-- four bombs in two weeks in random locations in Moscow and two other cities.

爆炸事件接二连三地发生——两周内在莫斯科和另外两个城市的随机地点发生了四起爆炸事件。

Early September was the first one.

九月初是第一个。

A bomb in a truck went off right outside an apartment building, collapsing it.

一辆卡车上的一枚炸弹在公寓楼外爆炸，导致公寓倒塌。

Over 60 people died.

超过60人死亡。

Days later, thousands of miles away, another bomb goes off on the ground floor of a nine-story apartment building.

几天后，在数千英里之外，另一枚炸弹在一座九层公寓楼的底层爆炸。

Nine stories flattened, killing over 90 people.

九层楼被夷为平地，造成 90 多人死亡。

Within days there was another one, and then a fourth-- buildings destroyed in the night while people were inside sleeping.

几天之内，又发生了另一起，然后是第四起——建筑物在夜间被毁，当时人们正在里面睡觉。

David Satter was in and out of the country at the time.

大卫·萨特当时正在进出该国。

He's been reporting on Russia since the '70s.

自 70 年代以来，他一直在报道俄罗斯。

It was an atmosphere of panic.

那是一种恐慌的气氛。

The whole country was terrified.

整个国家都陷入了恐惧。

People began to fear that any apartment building could be blown up in the middle of the night and any family could be buried under the rubble.

人们开始担心任何公寓楼都可能在半夜被炸毁，任何家庭都可能被埋在废墟下。

There are 30,000 apartment blocks in Moscow.

莫斯科有30,000栋公寓楼。

And patrols, night patrols, were organized in all of them to prevent terrorists from putting bombs in the basements.

所有这些地方都组织了巡逻，夜间巡逻，以防止恐怖分子在地下室放置炸弹。

The government immediately blamed the bombings on Chechen guerrillas.

政府立即将爆炸事件归咎于车臣游击队。

Scott Anderson is another reporter who's written about the attacks.

斯科特·安德森是另一位撰写有关袭击事件的记者。

Chechens tend to be more darkly complected than your typical ethnic Russians.

车臣人往往比典型的俄罗斯人更加阴暗。

So anyone who was darkly complected on the streets of Moscow was subject to arrest or being beaten up.

因此，任何在莫斯科街头犯罪的人都会遭到逮捕或殴打。

And so a lot of people from the Caucasus, they would just stay inside.

所以很多来自高加索地区的人都会呆在里面。

They were afraid to go out on the streets.

他们不敢上街。

But this story that Chechens were behind the bombings was kind of fishy.

但关于车臣人是爆炸事件幕后黑手的说法有点可疑。

For starters, it was three years after Chechnya and Russia had finished a war, the First Chechen War.

首先，车臣和俄罗斯结束一场战争（第一次车臣战争）三年后。

Chechnya basically won.

车臣基本获胜。

They signed a peace treaty.

他们签署了和平条约。

Again, Scott.

再说一遍，斯科特。

What motive did the Chechens have to start this bombing campaign against Russia when they pretty much had everything they wanted?

当车臣人几乎拥有了他们想要的一切时，他们有什么动机开始针对俄罗斯的轰炸行动呢？

There was no reason to fight the Russians at this point.

此时没有理由与俄罗斯人作战。

Right.

正确的。

They'd won the war.

他们赢得了战争。

Scott Anderson That's right.

斯科特·安德森 没错。

They'd won the war.

他们赢得了战争。

So why commit acts of terror that were big enough to start another war?

那么，为什么要实施规模大到足以引发另一场战争的恐怖行为呢？

And just logistically, it would have been hard to pull off.

仅从逻辑上来说，这很难实现。

Even in 1999, Russia was a very heavily policed state.

即使在 1999 年，俄罗斯也是一个治安非常严密的国家。

And so certainly by after the second or third bombing, there were police checkpoints all over-- certainly all over Moscow, all over major Russian cities.

因此，在第二次或第三次爆炸之后，肯定会出现警察检查站——当然是整个莫斯科，整个俄罗斯主要城市。

So the idea of these bombers moving around-- and these are kind of crude explosives.

因此，这些轰炸机四处移动的想法是——这些是一种粗糙的炸药。

They're very heavy, 50-kilo sacks of explosives you need to haul around.

它们是非常重的 50 公斤重的炸药袋，你需要搬运。

So you need a car.

所以你需要一辆车。

So you're going through checkpoints.

所以你要通过检查站。

And with the whole hysteria against Chechens, certainly anybody who was, again, darkly complected going through a checkpoint was going to be thoroughly searched.

由于针对车臣人的歇斯底里，任何一个再次阴险地通过检查站的人肯定都会被彻底搜查。

Even some people in the government questioned the official account.

甚至一些政府人士也对官方账号提出了质疑。

David Satter was in Moscow right after the bombings.

爆炸发生后，戴维·萨特 (David Satter) 就在莫斯科。

And a friend who had good connections told David there were people in the security services who suspected the FSB-- that's the modern version of the KGB basically-- might be behind the bombings.

一位有良好关系的朋友告诉大卫，安全部门有人怀疑联邦安全局（这基本上是克格勃的现代版本）可能是爆炸事件的幕后黑手。

So David asked to meet some of those guys in person, and they agreed.

因此大卫要求亲自会见其中一些人，他们同意了。

But this was such a dangerous idea.

但这是一个非常危险的想法。

They wanted to make sure they weren't caught.

他们想确保自己没有被抓住。

So they had this very private conversation in a very public place, in the center of Moscow.

所以他们在莫斯科市中心的一个非常公共的地方进行了这次非常私人的谈话。

I don't want to give away too many details.

我不想透露太多细节。

It's OK.

没关系。

David Satter But I was in a store of some sort, in a building not far from the Bolshoi Theatre.

大卫·萨特 但我当时是在离莫斯科大剧院不远的一座建筑里的某种商店里。

And people coming and going, but we didn't give any indication what we were talking about.

人们来来往往，但我们没有给出任何迹象表明我们在谈论什么。

Just a couple of men standing there, talking about something.

只有几个男人站在那里，正在谈论着什么。

The agents didn't have proof, but some things just didn't add up.

特工们没有证据，但有些事情就是不成立。

For example, the simple fact that the buildings were blown up with hexogen, which is a very, very powerful explosive that's used to top off artillery shells and is available only in one factory in Russia, which is tightly guarded by the FSB.

例如，一个简单的事实是，建筑物是用海克斯金炸毁的，这是一种非常非常强大的炸药，用于装填炮弹，并且只有俄罗斯的一家工厂有这种炸药，而该工厂受到俄罗斯联邦安全局的严密看守。

It's also at military bases.

军事基地也有。

But how would terrorists get hexogen at all, the agent said, let alone drive big quantities of it around Russia unchecked?

但这名特工表示，恐怖分子如何获得海克斯金，更不用说在俄罗斯各地不受控制地运载大量海克斯金了？

When you heard this stuff, were you thinking these arguments were convincing, or were you also thinking, well--

当你听到这些东西时，你是否认为这些论点有说服力，或者你是否也在想，嗯——

I wasn't completely convinced that this was a government provocation.

我并不完全相信这是政府的挑衅。

But what convinced me was the bomb that did not go off, the fifth bomb.

但令我信服的是那枚没有爆炸的炸弹，即第五枚炸弹。

The fifth bomb in yet another city, Ryazan.

第五枚炸弹发生在另一个城市梁赞。

And this is where the story about the Chechens seems to really fall apart and where the story gets truly strange.

这就是关于车臣人的故事似乎真正崩溃的地方，也是故事变得真正奇怪的地方。

September 22, 1999, 2 and 1/2 weeks after the first apartment bomb.

1999 年 9 月 22 日，第一起公寓爆炸事件发生后 2 又 1/2 周。

A couple of residents in a building in Ryazan noticed something weird.

梁赞一栋大楼里的几位居民注意到了一些奇怪的事情。

One guy, a bus driver who lived in the building, saw a car, a white sedan, parked outside the building.

住在这栋大楼里的一名公交车司机看到一辆汽车，一辆白色轿车，停在大楼外。

Maura Reynolds was a foreign correspondent for The LA Times back then living in Moscow.

莫拉·雷诺兹当时是《洛杉矶时报》的驻外记者，住在莫斯科。

She talked to the guy, who told her the license plates on the car didn't look right.

她与那个人交谈，那个人告诉她车上的车牌看起来不对。

They had a local city code on them for Ryazan, the number 62.

他们身上有梁赞当地的城市代码，数字是 62。

But, he told Maura, when he looked closer, he saw that the number--

但是，他告诉莫拉，当他仔细观察时，他看到了这个数字——

It had been written on.

上面已经写着了。

It had been drawn on by hand.

它是用手画的。

It didn't look like it was stamped into the metal license plate.

它看起来不像是印在金属车牌上的。

Yeah, like a magic marker on a piece of paper taped over the license plate.

是的，就像一张粘在车牌上的纸上的魔法记号笔。

Oh.

哦。

Maura Reynolds And that was immediately something that-- he thought, huh?

毛拉·雷诺兹（Maura Reynolds）：他立即想到了这一点，是吧？

So he calls the police.

于是他报了警。

In the meantime, two men get out of the car.

与此同时，两名男子从车上下来。

And start carrying heavy sacks of something into the building's basement.

然后开始把沉重的东西搬进大楼的地下室。

The people jump back in the car.

众人跳回车里。

They take off.

他们起飞了。

That's Scott Anderson again.

又是斯科特·安德森。

The local police show up.

当地警察出现。

They went down into the basement and came running back up saying, it's a bomb, it's a bomb.

他们走进地下室，跑回来说，这是一枚炸弹，这是一枚炸弹。

Ryazan is essentially sealed off within hours.

梁赞在数小时内基本上被封锁。

Thousands and thousands of soldiers and police cordoned off the city, and they begin this massive dragnet for these two men and a woman who was in the car also.

成千上万的士兵和警察封锁了这座城市，他们开始对这两名男子和车里的一名女子展开巨大的拉网。

Local FSB start combing through evidence.

当地金融稳定委员会开始梳理证据。

A detonator was found in the basement.

在地下室发现了一个雷管。

[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Robyn Semien Here's a TV news clip from them from a documentary about the bombings called Disbelief.

[俄语] Robyn Semien 这是他们的电视新闻片段，摘自一部名为《Disbelief》的有关爆炸事件的纪录片。

The reporter says, "The sacks were discovered by police."

记者称：“这些麻袋是警方发现的。”

[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Robyn Semien The sacks were taken to a lab that concluded the contents were hexogen, the same explosive used to blow up the other buildings, the stuff that supposedly only the FSB and military had access to.

[俄语] 罗宾·塞米恩 (Robyn Semien) 这些麻袋被带到一家实验室，得出的结论是里面的东西是海克斯基 (hexogen)，与炸毁其他建筑物所用的炸药相同，据说只有联邦安全局和军方才能接触到这种东西。

One day after the bomb scare, Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, who, remember, has only been in the job for a month, launches the second war against Chechnya over the bombings.

炸弹恐慌发生后的一天，总理弗拉基米尔·普京（记得他上任才一个月）就因爆炸事件发动了针对车臣的第二次战争。

He says, quote, "The question is closed once and for all.

他引用道：“这个问题已经一劳永逸地解决了。

We will pursue the terrorists everywhere.

我们将到处追捕恐怖分子。

If they are in an airport, then in an airport.

如果他们在机场，那就在机场。

And forgive me-- if we catch them in the crapper, then we'll rub them out in the crapper," unquote.

请原谅我——如果我们在垃圾堆里抓住他们，那么我们就会把他们在垃圾堆里擦掉。”未引述。

Meanwhile back in Ryazan, local police find the mysterious white sedan and the two suspects.

与此同时，回到梁赞，当地警方找到了那辆神秘的白色轿车和两名嫌疑人。

They were not Chechen.

他们不是车臣人。

They were Russian-- Russian FSB agents with FSB IDs.

他们是俄罗斯——拥有 FSB ID 的俄罗斯 FSB 特工。

The head of the FSB, Nikolai Patrushev, goes on TV and is like, there's a totally reasonable explanation for FSB agents to be caught doing this.

联邦安全局局长尼古拉·帕特鲁舍夫在电视上表示，联邦安全局特工被发现这样做有一个完全合理的解释。

The whole thing was a drill.

整个事情就是一次演习。

This audio of that announcement is from a documentary about the bombings called Blowing Up Russia.

该公告的音频来自一部有关爆炸事件的纪录片《炸毁俄罗斯》。

First of all, there wasn't an explosion, and an explosion wasn't prevented.

首先，没有发生爆炸，也没有阻止爆炸。

But it wasn't good work.

但这并不是一件好事。

It was an exercise.

这是一次练习。

He goes in front of the cameras.

他走到摄像机前。

He makes this little statement.

他发表了这个小声明。

Again, Scott Anderson.

再次，斯科特·安德森。

Scott Anderson He doesn't take questions.

斯科特·安德森（Scott Anderson）他不回答问题。

He walks away.

他走开了。

It's just like, oh, yeah, that was just a military exercise.

就像，哦，是的，那只是一次军事演习。

As for the hexogen, there was no hexogen, he says.

至于 hexogen，他说根本就没有 hexogen。

There were no explosives.

没有爆炸物。

The white powder in the bags, he explains, was sugar.

他解释说，袋子里的白色粉末是糖。

Maura Reynolds talked to people who lived in the apartment building in Ryazan back then.

莫拉·雷诺兹与当时居住在梁赞公寓楼的人们进行了交谈。

She says people were angry, and they thought their own government had tried to kill them.

她说人们很愤怒，他们认为自己的政府试图杀死他们。

Though, of course, since this was Russia--

不过，当然，因为这里是俄罗斯——

They wouldn't say it quite that way.

他们不会这么说。

What they would say over and over again was in the form of a question.

他们一遍又一遍地以问题的形式说的话。

Whose interests were served by this?

这符合谁的利益？

Who had something to gain?

谁有收获？

It doesn't make sense, but who had something to gain?

这没有道理，但谁有收获呢？

Yeah.

是的。

Robyn Semien And what would people say?

Robyn Semien 人们会怎么说？

Who else?

还有谁？

The government.

政府。

But let me say that some weren't willing to go to say that out loud.

但我要说的是，有些人不愿意大声说出来。

They would say, who had something to gain?

他们会说，谁有所得？

And then there would be a pause, and they would raise their eyebrows.

然后会有一个停顿，他们会扬起眉毛。

And I would say, who do you think?

我会说，你认为是谁？

And they'd say, who do you think?

他们会说，你认为是谁？

At the time there was still something of a free press.

当时新闻界还是有一定程度的自由。

People could speak out and did.

人们可以畅所欲言，也可以做到。

This is tape from a TV special on an independent channel, the NTV network, which has since been taken over by the state.

这是独立频道 NTV 网络上的电视特别节目的磁带，该频道后来被国家接管。

The special is like a talk show with a host, some FSB higher-ups, and people from the building who are pretty mad.

这个特别节目就像一个脱口秀节目，有主持人、一些 FSB 高层，还有大楼里非常生气的人。

Again, this comes from the documentary Disbelief.

同样，这来自纪录片《难以置信》。

He's saying, "The people of Ryazan and many other towns just do not believe all these stories.

他说：“梁赞和许多其他城镇的人们并不相信所有这些故事。

I'm sitting here and just cannot believe the story the FSB is telling.

我坐在这里，简直不敢相信 FSB 讲述的故事。

I myself am a military officer.

我本人是一名军官。

I was a senior officer for 28 years.

我当了28年的高级军官。

I was in charge of countless exercises.

我负责了无数的练习。

What these generals are claiming about this so-called exercise, I just can't believe my ears."

这些将军对这次所谓的演习的说法，我简直不敢相信自己的耳朵。”

All of this unfolds very quickly.

所有这一切都展开得非常快。

Putin becomes prime minister in August.

普京于八月就任总理。

The bombings are in September.

爆炸发生在九月。

The war starts in September also.

战争也在九月开始。

Putin is the public face of the war, and it's going well.

普京是这场战争的公众代言人，而且战争进展顺利。

This is when his popularity soars.

这是他的人气飙升的时候。

And on New Year's Eve at midnight, the president at the time, Boris Yeltsin, makes an announcement.

新年前夕午夜，时任总统鲍里斯·叶利钦宣布了一项声明。

Boris Yeltsin announces-- complete shocking announcement-- that he's going to retire.

鲍里斯·叶利钦宣布——完全令人震惊的宣布——他将退休。

He's going to resign the presidency, effective immediately.

他将辞去总统职务，立即生效。

He names Vladimir Putin acting president.

他任命弗拉基米尔·普京为代理总统。

Putin's very first act, his very first presidential decree, is to stop all the corruption investigations into Boris Yeltsin.

普京的第一个行动，他的第一个总统令，就是停止对鲍里斯·叶利钦的所有腐败调查。

These investigations have been going on.

这些调查一直在进行。

The elections are supposed to be in June.

选举原定于六月举行。

Instead he moves them up to March, which gives opposition parties very little time to organize.

相反，他将时间推迟到三月，这使得反对党几乎没有时间组织起来。

And then he wins the presidency outright in March.

然后他在三月份彻底赢得了总统职位。

So in this incredibly short period, about eight months, he goes from being a complete unknown to being the president of Russia.

因此，在这极短的时间内，大约八个月，他从一个完全无名的人变成了俄罗斯总统。

Maura Reynolds says when Ryazan happened she saw it in local news reports, but it wasn't a huge story.

莫拉·雷诺兹说，梁赞事件发生时，她在当地新闻报道中看到了此事，但​​这并不是一个大新闻。

The FSB may or may not have planted explosives.

俄罗斯联邦安全局可能埋藏了炸药，也可能没有埋藏炸药。

It wasn't clear what it meant.

目前还不清楚这是什么意思。

And it was quickly drowned out by the invasion and the war.

它很快就被入侵和战争淹没了。

Only in retrospect did it start to seem significant.

只有回想起来，它才开始显得意义重大。

And in retrospect there were other pieces of evidence that started to seem important.

回想起来，还有其他证据开始显得很重要。

I'll tell you one more.

我再告诉你一件事。

Right after one of the bombs went off in Moscow-- this was the third bomb-- the speaker of the Russian parliament, a guy named Seleznyov, mentioned the bomb, but got the city wrong.

其中一枚炸弹在莫斯科爆炸后（这是第三枚炸弹），俄罗斯议会议长谢列兹尼奥夫（Seleznyov）提到了这枚炸弹，但搞错了这座城市。

Mind you, he was in Moscow, and the bomb was in Moscow.

请注意，他在莫斯科，而炸弹也在莫斯科。

But he said the bomb went off in Volgodonsk.

但他说炸弹是在伏尔加顿斯克爆炸的。

Here's Scott Anderson.

请听斯科特·安德森的报道。

So you could say, oh, somehow he said Volgodonsk instead of Moscow, except that three days later an apartment building in Volgodonsk was blown up--

所以你可以说，哦，不知怎的，他说的是伏尔加顿斯克而不是莫斯科，只不过三天后伏尔加顿斯克的一座公寓楼被炸毁了——

Wow.

哇。

Scott Anderson --raising the question of how Seleznyov knew about the bombing three days ahead of time.

斯科特·安德森——提出了谢列兹尼奥夫如何提前三天知道爆炸事件的问题。

--after the bomb finally did go off in Volgodonsk, another member of parliament, a guy named Zhirinovsky, confronts the speaker about how suspicious this looked.

——炸弹最终在伏尔加顿斯克爆炸后，另一位议会议员日里诺夫斯基向议长质问这件事看起来有多可疑。

He says, you told us on Monday that a building in Volgodonsk was blown up three days before the explosion.

他说，你周一告诉我们，伏尔加顿斯克的一栋建筑在爆炸前三天被炸毁。

Zhirinovsky calls the act monstrous and says he'll try to keep the speaker from being re-elected, but he's hard to hear because they keep cutting his microphone off.

日里诺夫斯基称这种行为十分可怕，并表示他会尽力阻止演讲者再次当选，但他的讲话很难听清，因为他们不断切断他的麦克风。

[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Robyn Semien Someone calls Zhirinovsky a scumbag and then a scoundrel who deserves to be shot.

[俄语] Robyn Semien 有人称日里诺夫斯基为渣男，然后是应该被枪杀的恶棍。

Finally Zhirinovsky turns around, walks away, and gets hit in the back with a folder of papers.

最后日里诺夫斯基转身走开，背部被一叠文件击中。

There was an official government investigation into the apartment bombings-- trials, convictions-- all held in private, not open to the public or press.

政府对公寓爆炸案进行了正式调查——审判、定罪——所有这些都是私下进行的，不向公众或媒体开放。

People were convicted.

人们被定罪。

They were not FSB agents.

他们不是 FSB 特工。

They were not Chechens either.

他们也不是车臣人。

There have been people outside the government who tried to look deeper into the bombings, but overall that hasn't gone well, most notably an independent commission of human rights activists, politicians, and investigators.

政府以外的一些人试图更深入地调查爆炸事件，但总体而言进展并不顺利，最引人注目的是一个由人权活动家、政治家和调查人员组成的独立委员会。

Again, Scott.

再说一遍，斯科特。

The head of that commission was killed, was murdered, shot to death in front of his house.

该委员会的负责人被杀，被谋杀，在他家门前被枪杀。

Another member of the committee died under mysterious circumstances.

委员会的另一名成员神秘死亡。

Anna Politkovskaya, investigative journalist, one of Russia's leading investigative journalists, was murdered in her apartment building.

调查记者安娜·波利特科夫斯卡娅（Anna Politkovskaya）是俄罗斯顶尖调查记者之一，在她的公寓楼内被谋杀。

She had written about the-- casting doubts on the apartment building bombings.

她曾写过对公寓楼爆炸事件表示怀疑的文章。

And of course, Alexander Litvinenko came out publicly accusing the Putin regime of doing the apartment building bombings.

当然，亚历山大·利特维年科公开指责普京政权制造了公寓楼爆炸事件。

He is poisoned with polonium in London in 2006 and dies.

2006 年，他在伦敦中毒身亡。

Radioactive poison, polonium-210, slipped into his tea.

放射性毒物钋210溜进了他的茶里。

A British investigation determined two FSB agents had killed Litvinenko and that Putin had likely signed off on it.

英国的一项调查确定，两名俄罗斯联邦安全局特工杀害了利特维年科，普京很可能签署了这一决定。

In his autobiography which came out in 2000, Putin roundly denied any FSB involvement in the bombings, writing, quote, "What?

在 2000 年出版的自传中，普京断然否认 FSB 参与了爆炸事件，并写道：“什么？

Blowing up our own apartment buildings?

炸毁我们自己的公寓楼？

You know, that is really utter nonsense.

要知道，这根本就是无稽之谈。

It's totally insane.

这完全是疯了。

No one in the Russian special services would be capable of such a crime against his own people," unquote.

俄罗斯特种部队中没有人有能力对自己的人民犯下这样的罪行，”引述道。

David Satter has been researching this since it happened and has written two books about it.

自事件发生以来，大卫·萨特（David Satter）一直在研究这个问题，并写了两本书。

He's convinced the story went like this.

他确信故事是这样发展的。

Before the bombings, even before Putin came to power, Boris Yeltsin and his administration were plagued with corruption investigations.

在爆炸事件发生之前，甚至在普京上台之前，鲍里斯·叶利钦和他的政府就饱受腐败调查的困扰。

He worried they could eventually point to him and his family, especially if some other party or someone unsympathetic to him became president.

他担心他们最终可能会指向他和他的家人，特别是如果其他政党或不同情他的人成为总统的话。

So he looked to appoint a prime minister who he could trust.

因此他希望任命一位他可以信任的总理。

He fired two other guys in just three months before landing on Putin.

他在短短三个月内解雇了另外两名员工，然后才转向普京。

Then he and Putin together had the apartments blown up as the pretext to go to war and, in the patriotic glow, to install Putin and quash the corruption investigations.

然后他和普京一起炸毁了这些公寓，以此为借口发动战争，并在爱国热情下让普京上台并撤销腐败调查。

Scott and Maura aren't so sure.

斯科特和莫拉不太确定。

For Maura, when it comes to the bombings, she gets that something was done by design and that it appears to be for political purposes.

对于莫拉来说，当谈到爆炸事件时，她知道有些事情是有意而为之的，而且似乎是出于政治目的。

But as for who was behind the bombings exactly, she can't tell.

但至于到底谁是爆炸事件的幕后黑手，她就说不出来了。

If you ask me what I think, I have to say, to this day, I do not know.

如果你问我怎么想，我不得不说，直到今天，我也不知道。

But this is what I would say, is that right now, it doesn't matter.

但这就是我要说的，现在这并不重要。

What do you mean?

你是什​​么意思？

Maura Reynolds Because whether the government or people around Putin played a role or whether they didn't, the effect is the same.

毛拉·雷诺兹：因为无论普京身边的政府或人民发挥了作用，还是没有发挥作用，效果都是一样的。

Either you believe what they said about the bombings, that there were terrorists out to kill ordinary Russians, in which case you are frightened and the world is a very scary place.

要么你相信他们所说的爆炸事件，恐怖分子出去杀害普通俄罗斯人，在这种情况下你会感到害怕，世界是一个非常可怕的地方。

Or you believe that your government or someone connected to the government could be bloody minded enough to kill 300 innocent civilians in their beds, in which case the world is a very scary place and you should be frightened.

或者你相信你的政府或与政府有联系的人可能会血腥到杀死300名躺在床上的无辜平民，在这种情况下，世界是一个非常可怕的地方，你应该感到害怕。

This is how it works in a police state.

这就是警察国家的运作方式。

You should be frightened.

你应该感到害怕。

And that's how the government exercises control.

这就是政府实施控制的方式。

It's been nearly two decades since the bombings.

爆炸事件已经过去近二十年了。

And I wanted to know, what do people in Russia think about them?

我想知道俄罗斯人对他们有何看法？

Putin is still their president.

普京仍然是他们的总统。

How big a deal are they?

他们有多大的事？

Are people walking around wondering if their president came to power by killing hundreds of Russian citizens?

人们是否在想，他们的总统是否是通过杀害数百名俄罗斯公民而上台的？

So I interviewed four people who live in Moscow.

所以我采访了四个住在莫斯科的人。

None of them said they were big supporters of Putin.

他们中没有人表示自己是普京的坚定支持者。

Three of the four had heard the rumor that he was behind the bombings.

四人中的三人听说过他是爆炸事件幕后黑手的传言。

None of them believed it or wanted to believe it.

他们没有人相信或不愿意相信。

"I can't know the truth, so I can't say," a 42-year-old screenwriter told me.

“我不知道真相，所以我不能说，”一位 42 岁的编剧告诉我。

A 22-year-old student I talked to said she didn't want to know if it was true.

我采访过的一位 22 岁的学生说她不想知道这是否属实。

As for Ryazan, only one of the four, a telecommunications specialist, had heard anything about Ryazan-- the sacks of sugar, any of that.

至于梁赞，四人中只有一个，即电信专家，听说过有关梁赞的任何事情——一袋袋糖，诸如此类的事情。

He knew all the details though, read a book about it.

不过他知道所有细节，读过一本相关的书。

And he believes Ryazan was an FSB drill.

他认为梁赞是联邦安全局的一次演习。

The one person who'd never heard the story that Putin might be behind the bombings was Yuliya, a 40-year-old lawyer.

40 岁的律师尤利亚 (Yuliya) 从未听说过普京可能是爆炸事件的幕后黑手。

It's just not something that people discuss.

这不是人们讨论的事情。

The media doesn't say anything about it, the families don't talk to each other about this, and friends don't talk about this to each other.

媒体对此不做任何报道，家人之间不谈论此事，朋友之间也不谈论此事。

[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Interpreter Yes, absolutely.

[俄语] 翻译 是的，绝对如此。

So I ran through all the facts with her, all the evidence that Putin might be behind the bombings.

所以我和她一起了解了所有事实，所有证据表明普京可能是爆炸事件的幕后黑手。

She said she didn't care.

她说她不在乎。

Does it sound like a ridiculous theory, I asked.

我问，这听起来是不是一个荒谬的理论？

Yes, she said, most likely some ridiculous theory.

是的，她说，很可能是一些荒谬的理论。

Robyn Semien.

罗宾·塞米恩.

Act Two: Mr. Popular Ira Glass Act Two, Mr. Popular.

第二幕：受欢迎的艾拉·格拉斯先生 第二幕，受欢迎的先生。

So one of the notable things about Vladimir Putin is that for years he's had stunningly high approval ratings among Russians.

因此，弗拉基米尔·普京值得注意的事情之一是，多年来他在俄罗斯人中拥有惊人的高支持率。

In January and early February of this year as tensions rose with Ukraine, his approval numbers rose with them to 71% from the 60s.

今年1月和2月初，随着与乌克兰的紧张局势升级，他的支持率也从60%上升到了71%。

And back in 2017 when we first broadcast today's program, the press was reporting that his approval ratings were something like 84%, which for a US president, that would be just unthinkable.

早在2017年我们第一次播出今天的节目时，媒体就报道他的支持率约为84%，这对于美国总统来说是不可想象的。

And we wondered, is that real at all, that 84%, or is that from some institution controlled by Putin?

我们想知道，这 84% 到底是真的吗，还是来自普京控制的某个机构？

So back then we asked Charles Maynes to look into this for us.

所以当时我们请查尔斯·梅恩斯为我们调查这个问题。

He is now NPR's Moscow correspondent.

他现在是 NPR 驻莫斯科记者。

Well, it is real.

嗯，这是真的。

I mean, these are real polls where large numbers of real people really do answer questions.

我的意思是，这些都是真实的民意调查，大量真实的人确实回答了问题。

Russia has two big polling firms that are essentially state sponsored and one that's independent.

俄罗斯有两家大型民意调查公司，一家基本上是国家资助的，另一家是独立的。

And all three of these get basically the same numbers.

所有这三个人的数字基本相同。

This month, Putin dropped by 2% to 82%.

本月，普京的支持率下降了 2%，至 82%。

And American pollsters like Gallup and Pew, they also get the same results.

盖洛普和皮尤等美国民意调查机构也得到了相同的结果。

In the 80s?

80年代？

Charles Maynes Yeah, in the 80s.

查尔斯·梅恩斯 是的，在 80 年代。

But are people just saying that they like Putin because they are scared to say anything else?

但人们只是因为害怕说出其他话而说他们喜欢普京吗？

Well, that's part of it, especially with older people.

嗯，这就是其中的一部分，尤其是对于老年人。

There was a poll done by this Levada Center-- this is the independent pollster in Russia-- saying that 26% of all respondents said they're afraid to share their views of the government with pollsters.

列瓦达中心（俄罗斯的独立民意调查机构）进行的一项民意调查显示，26％的受访者表示他们害怕与民意调查机构分享他们对政府的看法。

So that probably inflates the number, but just how much isn't really clear.

所以这可能会夸大这个数字，但具体有多少还不清楚。

So OK, if 82% isn't the right number, do we have any sense of what a more accurate measure of his popularity might be?

那么好吧，如果 82% 不是正确的数字，我们是否知道更准确地衡量他的受欢迎程度的方法是什么？

Well, some pollsters say it's the so-called electoral rating.

嗯，一些民意调查专家说这就是所谓的选举评级。

This is when you ask Russians who they'd actually vote for.

这是当你问俄罗斯人他们实际上会投票给谁时。

Like the Levada Center has this poll they do where they say, if the presidential elections were held next Sunday, who would you vote for?

就像列瓦达中心所做的民意调查一样，他们说，如果下周日举行总统选举，你会投票给谁？

And then only 55% say they'd vote for Putin.

然后只有 55% 的人表示他们会投票给普京。

And that's, again, the independent pollsters.

这又是独立民意调查机构。

The state one has a figure that's a little higher, 64%.

州政府的数字略高一些，为 64%。

But that's hardly the 82%, 84% that we've seen.

但这远不是我们看到的 82%、84%。

So what I get from this is take the 82%, 84% approval rating with a grain of salt, but it is true that most people approve of him?

所以我从这得到的结果是对82%、84%的支持率持保留态度，但大多数人真的认可他吗？

OK, so to hear what that approval is all about and what people think of him, we asked you to talk to some people who like him, which you did, people across the country.

好的，为了了解这种认可的意义以及人们对他的看法，我们请您与一些喜欢他的人交谈，您确实这样做了，全国各地的人们。

And then you put together this story about one of them.

然后你把关于其中一个人的故事放在一起。

This is someone I knew wouldn't exaggerate their feelings about the president because they were talking to a foreign reporter, someone I've known for decades.

我知道这个人不会夸大他们对总统的感情，因为他们正在与一位外国记者交谈，而这位记者是我认识了几十年的人。

That's her talking here, Olga Sergeevna Dmitrieva.

这是她在这儿说话，奥尔加·谢尔盖耶芙娜·德米特里耶娃。

I lived with Olga Sergeevna and her two children back in the mid-90s when I was an exchange student in Moscow.

九十年代中期，当我在莫斯科做交换生时，我与奥尔加·谢尔盖耶芙娜 (Olga Sergeevna) 和她的两个孩子住在一起。

It was a good five years before Putin arrived on the scene.

距离普京上台已经过去了整整五年。

Over the years she took in several American exchange students.

多年来她收留了几名美国交换生。

[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Charles Maynes That's her telling me I was her favorite.

[俄语] 查尔斯·梅恩斯 她告诉我我是她的最爱。

And I tell her I always say I have a Russian mom.

我告诉她我总是说我有一个俄罗斯妈妈。

She says, I always say I have an American son who I don't see as much as I like.

她说，我总是说我有一个美国儿子，但我不太喜欢见到他。

We took the tram to her apartment building through the neighborhood I lived in with her family back in the '90s, and she started pointing out all these changes-- a new playground, new stores.

我们乘电车穿过我和她家人在 90 年代居住的社区来到她的公寓楼，她开始指出所有这些变化——新的游乐场、新的商店。

And just by the new museum they're building a community pool.

他们正在新博物馆旁边建造一个社区游泳池。

Now, none of this was here back when I lived with them.

现在，当我和他们住在一起时，这些都没有了。

It's all part of the prosperity that's come to Moscow since Putin came to power.

这都是普京上台以来莫斯科繁荣的一部分。

And it's why Olga Sergeevna and lots of people in her generation-- she's in her 60s-- it's why they love Putin.

这就是为什么奥尔加·谢尔盖耶夫娜和她这一代的很多人——她已经60多岁了——这就是为什么他们喜欢普京。

When I lived with Olga Sergeevna and her family Boris Yeltsin was president, and things in Russia were really, really tough.

当我与奥尔加·谢尔盖耶夫娜（Olga Sergeevna）和她的家人住在一起时，鲍里斯·叶利钦（Boris Yeltsin）是总统，俄罗斯的事情真的非常艰难。

In fact, there's a poll for that.

事实上，有一个民意调查。

It says 68% of Russians think nothing good happened in Russia during the Yeltsin years, nothing.

报告称，68%的俄罗斯人认为叶利钦执政期间俄罗斯没有发生任何好事，什么都没有。

Olga Sergeevna says life was hard back then.

奥尔加·谢尔盖耶夫娜说，那时的生活很艰难。

People didn't have enough money.

人们没有足够的钱。

Grocery stores were empty.

杂货店空无一人。

And they only began to clear with the arrival of Vladimir Putin.

随着弗拉基米尔·普京的到来，这些问题才开始变得清晰。

It seems almost hard to remember now, but when Putin first arrived as prime minister in 1999 Russians had no idea who he was.

现在看来几乎很难记住，1999 年普京首次就任总理时，俄罗斯人根本不知道他是谁。

He was this awkward public speaker back then.

那时他是一位尴尬的公共演讲者。

His suits were ill fitting.

他的西装不合身。

The guy never smiled.

那家伙从来没有笑过。

[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Charles Maynes Hardly, says Olga Sergeevna, the specimen she sees now.

[俄语] 查尔斯·梅恩斯 几乎没有，奥尔加·谢尔盖耶夫娜说，她现在看到的标本。

She told me Putin's appearance was predicted earlier, when mystics said one day a man named Volodya would save Russia.

她告诉我普京的出现早在早些时候就已被预言，当时神秘主义者说有一天一位名叫沃洛佳的人将拯救俄罗斯。

Volodya is short for Vladimir.

沃洛迪亚是弗拉基米尔的缩写。

Lots of the older generation will tell you stuff like this.

很多老一辈人都会告诉你这样的事情。

Nobody thought that savior would be Putin.

没有人想到救世主会是普京。

I mean, let's face it, she says.

我的意思是，让我们面对现实吧，她说。

He's kind of short.

他有点矮。

No one believed he'd change Russia, that Russia would rise from its knees.

没有人相信他会改变俄罗斯，相信俄罗斯会重新崛起。

But it did rise from its knees.

但它确实从膝盖上站了起来。

His predecessor, Boris Yeltsin, was seen as this buffoon-- visibly drunk in meetings with world leaders, an embarrassment.

他的前任鲍里斯·叶利钦被视为小丑——在与世界领导人会面时明显喝醉了，这令人尴尬。

Putin was younger.

普京更年轻。

He didn't drink.

他没有喝酒。

The fact that he was a former KGB agent at least meant he was disciplined and educated.

他曾是克格勃特工，这一事实至少意味着他受过纪律和教育。

He spoke German, practiced judo.

他说德语，练习柔道。

And he brought an end to the chaos of the Yeltsin years during which the ruble had collapsed several times, the government was constantly reshuffled, and a few insiders, the so-called oligarchs, became billionaires while most everyone else lost their savings.

他结束了叶利钦时代的混乱，卢布数次崩溃，政府不断改组，少数内部人士，即所谓的寡头，成为亿万富翁，而其他大多数人都失去了积蓄。

But as soon as Putin took over, the economy boomed, mostly because of oil prices shooting up.

但普京一上任，经济就蓬勃发展，这主要是因为油价上涨。

And soon he exiled or arrested oligarchs who'd been running the country behind the scenes.

很快他就流放或逮捕了幕后操纵国家的寡头。

A lot of people talk about how Putin saved Russia.

很多人都在谈论普京如何拯救了俄罗斯。

If you compare 1994 and 2017, Olga Sergeevna says, the difference is night and day.

奥尔加·谢尔盖耶芙娜 (Olga Sergeevna) 表示，如果比较 1994 年和 2017 年，就会发现差别就是白天和黑夜。

In 1994 and '95, we didn't celebrate holidays.

1994年和95年，我们没有庆祝节日。

Nobody was in a festive mood.

没有人处于节日气氛中。

The theaters were all closed because nobody went.

剧院都关门了，因为没人去。

Nobody had money.

没有人有钱。

Under Putin, she says, she lives a comfortable life-- has a job, can afford to travel, can go out to eat or to the theater.

她说，在普京的领导下，她过着舒适的生活——有工作，能负担得起旅行，可以出去吃饭或去剧院。

It's hard to overstate how important this is.

很难夸大这一点的重要性。

During Putin's first decade in power Russians had never lived better, particularly in the bigger cities.

在普京执政的第一个十年里，俄罗斯人的生活从未如此美好，尤其是在大城市。

People like Olga Sergeevna became part of something that was happening for the first time ever in Russia, the emergence of a middle class.

像奥尔加·谢尔盖耶夫娜这样的人成为俄罗斯有史以来第一次发生的事情的一部分，即中产阶级的出现。

Over time, this economic miracle turned Putin into sort of a folk hero.

随着时间的推移，这一经济奇迹使普京成为了民间英雄。

There's the side of him we know in America, the guy flying jets or riding horses shirtless.

这是我们在美国所熟知的他的一面，那个开着喷气式飞机或光着膀子骑马的人。

But in Russia he's cultivated this image that he's frugal, lives modestly, works all the time.

但在俄罗斯，他树立了这样的形象：节俭、生活谦虚、一直工作。

A political analyst told me Putin's seen as the only one who can fix anything or improve people's lives, the one who keeps corrupt bureaucrats in check.

一位政治分析人士告诉我，普京被视为唯一能够解决任何问题或改善人们生活的人，也是唯一能够控制腐败官僚的人。

He's the good czar.

他是好沙皇。

For Olga Sergeevna it wasn't just that Putin made the country better.

对于奥尔加·谢尔盖耶芙娜来说，普京让这个国家变得更好并不只是因为她。

It was that he could do no wrong.

他不能做错事。

[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Charles Maynes Because he's smart, intelligent, cultured, athletic, she says.

[俄语] 查尔斯·梅恩斯 因为他聪明、聪明、有文化、运动能力强，她说。

He's even a musician, plays and sings.

他甚至是一位音乐家，会演奏和唱歌。

[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Charles Maynes [SPEAKING RUSSIAN]

[俄语] 查尔斯·梅恩斯 [俄语]

I asked her if there's anything he can't do.

我问她有什么是他不能做的吗？

Her response--

她的回应——

[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Charles Maynes He can't cook, but he doesn't need to.

[俄语] 查尔斯·梅恩斯 他不会做饭，但他不需要。

Finally I said, come on.

最后我说，来吧。

Isn't there anything you don't like about him, anything at all?

难道你就没有什么不喜欢他的地方吗？

Nyet.

还没有。

Nyet.

还没有。

Nyet.

还没有。

Nyet.

还没有。

No!

不！

Charles Maynes While we were talking, Olga Sergeevna brought me over to her computer, started scrolling through her Facebook page.

查尔斯·梅恩斯 当我们谈话时，奥尔加·谢尔盖耶芙娜把我带到她的电脑前，开始浏览她的 Facebook 页面。

She subscribes to a Putin feed just to see what he's up to.

她订阅普京的动态只是为了看看他在做什么。

And her feed is filled with pictures of him-- Putin snarling, Putin laughing.

她的动态里充满了他的照片——普京咆哮，普京大笑。

Doesn't he look like a benevolent lord, she says.

她说，他看起来不像一位仁慈的领主吗？

I just want to point out here that Olga Sergeevna doesn't work for the government or Putin's United Russia party.

我只想在这里指出，奥尔加·谢尔盖耶芙娜并不为政府或普京的统一俄罗斯党工作。

She's an accountant.

她是一名会计师。

She has been for decades, with a daughter who lives in London and a son who works for an American tech company.

她已经这样做了几十年，她的女儿住在伦敦，儿子在一家美国科技公司工作。

[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Charles Maynes One of the things Olga Sergeevna likes best is that Putin stands up to the West.

[俄语] 查尔斯·梅恩斯 奥尔加·谢尔盖耶芙娜最喜欢的事情之一就是普京勇敢地面对西方。

And this is a big thing for Russians.

这对俄罗斯人来说是一件大事。

[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Charles Maynes As Putin likes to say, when they curse me in the West, it means I'm doing the right thing.

[俄语] 查尔斯·梅恩斯 正如普京喜欢说的，当他们在西方咒骂我时，这意味着我正在做正确的事。

When it comes to the bad things Americans hear about Putin-- that he's corrupt, that he's secretly one of the world's richest men, or that he's meddled in the American elections-- Olga Sergeevna says that's all lies perpetuated by Western journalists, people like me, a reminder that we have this ongoing joke where she tells me to leave our Putin alone.

当谈到美国人听到的关于普京的坏话时——比如他腐败，他秘密是世界上最富有的人之一，或者他干预美国选举——奥尔加·谢尔盖耶夫娜说，这都是西方记者和像我这样的人编造的谎言，提醒我们，我们有一个持续不断的笑话，她让我别碰我们的普京。

And she says she means it.

她说她是认真的。

I ask her about the many opponents of Putin's who've ended up dead-- the journalist Anna Politkovskaya or Alexander Litvinenko, the KGB whistleblower who was poisoned with a radioactive isotope.

我问她关于普京的许多反对者最终死去的事情——记者安娜·波利特科夫斯卡娅（Anna Politkovskaya）或被放射性同位素中毒的克格勃举报人亚历山大·利特维年科（Alexander Litvinenko）。

Who poisoned him, she asked.

谁给他下了毒，她问道。

Some say it was Putin, I tell her.

我告诉她，有人说是普京。

Oh, please.

哦，拜托。

Everyone says it's Putin.

大家都说是普京。

[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Charles Maynes The moment somebody sneezes or farts in Russia, Putin is to blame.

[俄语] 查尔斯·梅恩斯 在俄罗斯，只要有人打喷嚏或放屁，普京就应该受到指责。

I say, but what about the opposition leader Boris Nemtsov?

我说，但是反对党领袖鲍里斯·涅姆佐夫呢？

He was killed.

他被杀了。

But she interrupts me and says--

但她打断了我的话——

Nothing of the sort, nothing of the sort.

没有那样的事，没有那样的事。

There was an investigation.

有一项调查。

Nemtsov died over a love triangle.

涅姆佐夫死于三角恋。

She doesn't buy any of it.

她什么都不买。

In fact, a lot of Olga Sergeevna's opinions are things you might hear on state TV.

事实上，奥尔加·谢尔盖耶夫娜的很多观点都是你可能在国家电视台上听到的。

But I think with Olga Sergeevna and the other people I talked to, people who love Putin, the moments I understand them best are when they talk about the past, everything they went through before Putin arrived.

但我认为，对于奥尔加·谢尔盖耶夫娜和我交谈过的其他人，那些热爱普京的人，我最了解他们的时刻是当他们谈论过去，谈论普京到来之前他们所经历的一切时。

It's why sometimes I think the real reason people like Putin is not because they believe he'll keep moving Russia forward into the future.

这就是为什么有时我认为人们喜欢普京的真正原因并不是因为他们相信他会继续推动俄罗斯走向未来。

It's because they fear someone else, anyone else, might drive Russia back to the past.

这是因为他们担心其他人、任何其他人可能会让俄罗斯回到过去。

Charles Maynes in Moscow.

查尔斯·梅恩斯在莫斯科。

This past week, he phoned Olga the day that Moscow invaded Ukraine to find out what she thought.

上周，他在莫斯科入侵乌克兰的那天给奥尔加打电话，询问她的想法。

She thinks Putin made the right call, that he was going in to help the separatists in Eastern Ukraine who've declared themselves independent of Ukraine and pro-Moscow.

她认为普京做出了正确的决定，他将帮助乌克兰东部的分离主义者，他们宣布自己独立于乌克兰并亲莫斯科。

She believes Ukrainian authorities were going to attack people in that territory with arms they got from the United States.

她认为乌克兰当局将用从美国获得的武器攻击该地区的人民。

The President of Ukraine, Zelensky, she told Charles he's a clown.

乌克兰总统泽连斯基，她告诉查尔斯他是个小丑。

Biden's a dope.

拜登是个傻瓜。

Putin, still the smartest of the pack.

普京仍然是最聪明的。

Coming up, another reason Russians see Putin the way they do.

接下来，俄罗斯人以他们的方式看待普京的另一个原因。

We get to know the disinformation mastermind who reshaped the world of Russian politics into what it is now.

我们了解了将俄罗斯政治世界重塑为现在的样子的虚假信息主谋。

That is in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.

芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。

It's This American Life.

这就是美国生活。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Today's program, The Other Mr. President, stories of Vladimir Putin and those around him.

今天的节目《另一个总统先生》讲述了弗拉基米尔·普京和他周围人的故事。

We've arrived at Act Three of our program-- Act Three, Maybe Pay a Little Attention to the Man behind the Curtain.

我们已经到了节目的第三幕——第三幕，也许稍微关注一下幕后的人。

There's a quote that we heard while we were working on today's program back in 2017 from a writer named Peter Pomerantsev.

我们在 2017 年制作今天的节目时听到了一位名叫 Peter Pomerantsev 的作家的一句话。

He said that if the old Soviet Union was 75% violence, 25% propaganda, in today's Russia those numbers are reversed.

他说，如果说旧苏联75%是暴力，25%是宣传，那么在今天的俄罗斯，这些数字正好相反。

It's 25% violence and 75% propaganda.

25% 是暴力，75% 是宣传。

And propaganda was radically reinvented under Vladimir Putin, its tactics and its methods, by this one political operative.

在弗拉基米尔·普京 (Vladimir Putin) 的领导下，这位政治人物对宣传、其策略和方法进行了彻底的改造。

Sean Cole explains.

肖恩·科尔解释道。

The operative's name is Vladislav Surkov.

该特工的名字是弗拉迪斯拉夫·苏尔科夫。

He was Putin's deputy chief for more than a decade, starting in 1999.

从1999年开始，他担任普京的副首席官十多年。

In Russia he's what's referred to as a political technologist, but those are a dime a dozen.

在俄罗斯，他被称为政治技术专家，但这样的人是一毛钱一打。

At the top of his powers, Surkov had a much more ominous, if unofficial title.

在苏尔科夫权力巅峰时，他有一个更为不祥的头衔，尽管是非官方的头衔。

He was known as a gray cardinal.

他被称为灰红衣主教。

He doesn't look like a shadowy mastermind.

他看起来不像是一个阴暗的主谋。

He sort of resembles Rowan Atkinson, the actor who played Mr. Bean, except handsomer.

他有点像扮演憨豆先生的演员罗温·阿特金森，只是更帅。

And he actually doesn't manage propaganda at the Kremlin anymore.

事实上，他不再负责克里姆林宫的宣传工作。

But the methods he invented to manipulate people and information, I've even heard them called artistic.

但他发明的操纵人和信息的方法，我什至听说它们被称为艺术。

See, in the Soviet era the country was run by the Communist Party and the propagandists pumped out literally the party line and tried to suppress all other opposing messages.

看，在苏联时代，这个国家是由共产党统治的，宣传人员逐字逐句地宣扬党的路线，并试图压制所有其他反对的信息。

And then the Iron Curtain fell, a whole bunch of new political parties were created, and it was the messy early stages of a real democracy with parties bickering and vying for power.

然后铁幕落下，一大堆新的政党诞生，这是真正民主的混乱的早期阶段，各党派争吵和争夺权力。

And then when Putin became president-- I'm obviously skipping over a lot here-- his right-hand man, Surkov, helped solidify the Kremlin's power by putting together this party called United Russia, which gained majority in parliament and backed Putin.

然后，当普京就任总统时（我显然在这里跳过了很多内容），他的得力助手苏尔科夫组建了统一俄罗斯党，帮助巩固了克里姆林宫的权力，该党在议会中获得了多数席位并支持普京。

And then instead of tamping down the opposition like the old days, Surkov built a new system where there was opposition, but he dictated what the opposition stood for.

然后，苏尔科夫没有像以前那样镇压反对派，而是建立了一个存在反对派的新制度，但他规定了反对派的主张。

You do not allow political parties to create their own agendas.

你不允许政党制定自己的议程。

You just write these agendas for them.

您只需为他们编写这些议程即可。

This is Vasily Gatov.

这是瓦西里·加托夫。

He's been a very high-level player in Russian media for nearly 20 years.

近20年来，他一直是俄罗斯媒体中非常高水平的人物。

These days, he's a visiting fellow at the Annenberg Center on Communication, Leadership, and Policy.

如今，他是安纳伯格沟通、领导力和政策中心的访问学者。

Well, we decide one of our parties is left party with some sort of communism.

好吧，我们决定我们的一个政党是某种共产主义的左翼政党。

Another party is you're a socialist.

另一个政党是你是社会主义者。

And the third party is deep conservative, kind of evangelicals.

第三个政党是根深蒂固的保守派，有点福音派。

And the fourth party would be sort of liberal radicals.

第四党将是自由激进分子。

And that's what Surkov actually constructed.

这就是苏尔科夫实际构建的。

And he created whole new political parties and wrote their agendas.

他创建了全新的政党并制定了他们的议程。

For example, he created a party called Spravedlivaya Rossiya, Just Russia.

例如，他创建了一个名为“Spravedlivaya Rossiya”（正义俄罗斯）的政党。

Just Russia.

只有俄罗斯。

Vasily Gatov Yeah.

瓦西里·加托夫 是的。

It was a political cadaver.

这是一具政治尸体。

Cadaver, like a cadaver.

尸体，就像尸体一样。

Sean Cole Like Frankenstein.

肖恩·科尔就像弗兰肯斯坦。

Created from some sort of pieces of socialist, labor, activist, more pro-government type of labor unions.

由某种社会主义、劳工、活动家、更亲政府类型的工会组成。

He also decided that he cannot allow any grassroot activities which would not be vetted by Kremlin.

他还决定，他不能允许任何未经克里姆林宫审查的草根活动。

So he decided that he will create also youth movements and write agenda for them.

因此，他决定创建青年运动并为他们制定议程。

And he also tried to do the same thing with NGOs, like political NGOs or those that control elections' transparency or expose corruption, sort of writing agendas for every one of them in the Kremlin.

他还试图对非政府组织做同样的事情，比如政治非政府组织或那些控制选举透明度或揭露腐败的非政府组织，为克里姆林宫的每个人制定议程。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

I would even provide you with a very funny hypothesis.

我什至会给你提供一个非常有趣的假设。

In 2001, I think, Russia has been invaded by reality shows, things like Survivor, Big Brother.

我认为 2001 年，俄罗斯已经被真人秀节目入侵，比如《幸存者》、《老大哥》。

And he was amazed how scripting can improve even those likely spontaneous interactions between people.

他感到惊讶的是，脚本甚至可以改善人与人之间可能自发的互动。

And I know that he was very good friends with all the producers of these reality shows.

我知道他和这些真人秀的所有制作人都是很好的朋友。

And actually, I think he was once even present at the filming of the Russian version of Survivor.

事实上，我认为他甚至曾经参加过俄罗斯版《幸存者》的拍摄。

And he's like, if they can do that on TV, sort of fake reality in TV, maybe we can fake reality in reality.

他说，如果他们可以在电视上做到这一点，在电视上伪造现实，也许我们可以在现实中伪造现实。

In a way, yeah.

在某种程度上，是的。

Sean Cole By 2003, so about four years into Surkov's tenure as gray cardinal, Vasily says Surkov had built up a whole cadre of deputies that would carry out his agenda with these different parties and other groups.

肖恩·科尔 (Sean Cole) 到 2003 年，也就是苏尔科夫担任灰红衣主教大约四年后，瓦西里说苏尔科夫已经建立了一支完整的代表队伍，可以与这些不同的政党和其他团体一起执行他的议程。

I asked Vasily for an example of how all this worked, and he told me what everybody told me when I asked for specifics.

我向瓦西里询问了这一切是如何运作的一个例子，当我询问具体细节时，他告诉了我每个人都告诉我的事情。

He said, it's not like I was in the room with him.

他说，我不像他在房间里。

I don't know exactly what he said to whom, nor when.

我不知道他到底对谁说了什么，也不知道什么时候。

He did tell me about this one case that he heard about from someone who worked with Surkov.

他确实向我讲述了他从与苏尔科夫共事的人那里听说的一个案例。

In 2004, Vladimir Putin decided that governors shouldn't be elected anymore.

2004年，弗拉基米尔·普京决定不再选举州长。

They should be appointed by him.

他们应该由他任命。

It's a long story.

这是一个很长的故事。

But at first, every other political party besides Putin's was against the idea, genuinely against it.

但一开始，除了普京的政党之外，其他所有政党都反对这个想法，而且是真心实意地反对。

But then Surkov manipulated them over to his side.

但随后苏尔科夫将他们操纵到自己这边。

It helped that he controlled their funding and the number of seats they got in the Duma.

他控制了他们的资金和他们在杜马中获得的席位数量，这对他很有帮助。

And then the parties went through this whole drawn-out public drama, which had all the trappings of democracy.

然后各党派经历了这整场旷日持久的公共戏剧，其中充满了民主的所有特征。

The bill was submitted.

该法案已提交。

There were arguments for and against it, protests around the country.

有人支持，有人反对，全国各地都有抗议活动。

People announce they've changed their minds.

人们宣布他们改变了主意。

There were several votes.

有好几票。

And finally, after three months, it passes.

最后，三个月后，一切都过去了。

All of this, Vasily says, was scripted by Surkov's people.

瓦西里说，所有这一切都是苏尔科夫的人策划的。

The name you hear for all these techniques is managed democracy.

您听到的所有这些技术的名字都是管理民主。

Surkov uses the phrase sovereign democracy.

苏尔科夫使用主权民主这个词。

I suggested to one person I talked to that managed democracy sounds like a contradiction in terms.

我向一位与我交谈过的人表示，管理民主听起来像是一个矛盾。

He said, exactly.

他说，正是如此。

It just means there's no democracy.

这只是意味着没有民主。

I don't want to overstate Surkov's power, nor his malevolence.

我不想夸大苏尔科夫的力量，也不想夸大他的恶毒。

Apparently he was much more carrot than stick in his approach, explaining why, no, you really want to align yourself with the Kremlin.

显然，他的做法更多是胡萝卜而不是坚持，解释了为什么，不，你真的想与克里姆林宫保持一致。

Here's what's to be gained.

这就是要获得的东西。

And he didn't try to do this with everybody.

他并没有试图对每个人都这样做。

He maintained, under this managed or sovereign democracy, a certain level of dissent.

在这种有管理的或主权的民主制度下，他保持着一定程度的异议。

Some actual opposition.

一些实际的反对。

Vasily Gatov Actual opposition, both in society and press, and even enjoyed this dissent because it was developing natural leaders like Navalny.

瓦西里·加托夫 社会和媒体上的实际反对派，甚至喜欢这种异议，因为它正在培养像纳瓦尔尼这样的天生领导人。

That's Alexei Navalny.

那是阿列克谢·纳瓦尔尼。

You may have heard of him.

你可能听说过他。

He's a high-profile activist.

他是一位备受瞩目的活动家。

He's considered to be the only real opponent to Putin, except he can't run against Putin because Putin's people had him arrested, and you can't run for president in Russia if you have a criminal record.

他被认为是普京唯一真正的对手，除了他不能与普京竞选，因为普京的人逮捕了他，而且如果你有犯罪记录，你就不能竞选俄罗斯总统。

To be honest, Navalny emerged within these sandboxes of allowed freedom that Surkov created.

老实说，纳瓦尔尼是在苏尔科夫创造的这些允许自由的沙箱中出现的。

And it was important for him because it was making his camouflage of autocracy much better looking.

这对他来说很重要，因为这让他的独裁伪装变得更好看。

The more you hear about Surkov the man, the more it makes you understand how his whole Truman Show theatrical directing of society developed.

你对苏尔科夫这个人了解得越多，就越能理解他对社会的整个《杜鲁门秀》戏剧导演是如何发展的。

He has all of these opposing factions inside of him too, all working in an unlikely but perfect concert together.

他的内心也有所有这些对立的派系，所有这些对立派系都在一起工作，在一场看似不可能但完美的音乐会上工作。

Back in the early '90s he was a PR guy, designing ads for the richest oligarch in Russia.

早在 90 年代初，他就是一名公关人员，为俄罗斯最富有的寡头设计广告。

At that point Surkov said he wanted to be like, quote, "the hero in Pretty Woman." He meant the Richard Gere character.

当时苏尔科夫说他想成为“《风月俏佳人》中的英雄”。他指的是理查·基尔这个角色。

But he's also a huge fan of the anti-bureaucracy, gay, Buddhist beat poet Allen Ginsberg.

但他也是反官僚、同性恋、佛教垮掉派诗人艾伦·金斯伯格的超级粉丝。

This is Surkov reciting Ginsberg's poem "Sunflower Sutra" from memory.

这是苏尔科夫背诵金斯伯格的诗《葵花经》。

And you there standing before me in the sunset and all your glory in your form-- a perfect beauty of a sunflower.

夕阳下，你站在我面前，你的容颜尽收眼底——完美的向日葵之美。

You might be able to tell that Surkov studied theater, but he got kicked out of the Moscow Institute of Culture after a fistfight, reportedly.

你也许能看出苏尔科夫学的是戏剧，但据报道，他在一次打架后被莫斯科文化学院开除。

He's written lyrics for a Russian band called Agata Kristi.

他为俄罗斯乐队 Agata Kristi 写过歌词。

And so you marry PR and art and performance, plus his time at Russia's main state TV network Channel One-- managed democracy was just the natural culmination.

因此，你将公关、艺术和表演结合在一起，再加上他在俄罗斯主要国家电视网络第一频道的经历——管理民主只是自然的顶峰。

Again, Vasily Gatov.

又是瓦西里·加托夫。

Vasily Gatov It was really funny for him to make these things happen, to achieve certain results, and sort of creative building of reality.

瓦西里·加托夫（Vasily Gatov）让这些事情发生，取得一定的成果，并创造性地构建现实，对他来说真的很有趣。

Again, as I said, it's a very much Big Brother type of scripting.

正如我所说，这是一种非常老大哥类型的脚本。

I mean, you need to create a conflict, and this conflict will create the conflict.

我的意思是，你需要制造冲突，而这个冲突将会制造冲突。

And then we just roll it out, and people will vote, and that would be fun.

然后我们就推出它，人们会投票，这会很有趣。

Besides which, he could totally get away with it.

除此之外，他完全可以逃脱惩罚。

Because not only was he good at it, but in Surkov's time as gray cardinal not very many people were paying attention.

因为他不仅擅长于此，而且在苏尔科夫担任灰红衣主教期间，并没有多少人关注。

At this moment people were absolutely uninterested in politics because Russia had a natural economic growth of about 9% a year.

此时人们对政治绝对不感兴趣，因为俄罗斯每年的自然经济增长率约为9%。

And the ruble was kind of taking strength.

卢布正在走强。

Credit was extremely cheap.

信贷非常便宜。

The country was booming.

国家正在蓬勃发展。

It's easy to build autocracy when country's booming because nobody cares about politics.

当国家繁荣时，很容易建立独裁统治，因为没有人关心政治。

Right.

正确的。

Vasily Gatov And I think Surkov was enjoying this moment because he was not only kind of a shadow cardinal, but he actually was openly cardinaling the situation.

瓦西里·加托夫 我认为苏尔科夫很享受这一刻，因为他不仅是一位影子枢机主教，而且实际上是在公开地主导局势。

That is, after a certain point he wouldn't take very many pains to hide what he was doing, which I can imagine the feeling.

也就是说，在某一点之后，他不会花太多功夫来隐藏他正在做的事情，我可以想象这种感觉。

Here he is carrying off all of these feats of manipulation in secret.

在这里，他正在秘密地进行所有这些操纵壮举。

You'd think he'd want a little credit.

你可能认为他想要一点功劳。

On this point, there was a moment when Surkov seemed to be showing his cards a little bit, deliberately.

在这一点上，有那么一刻，苏尔科夫似乎有意地亮出了自己的底牌。

It's a story that Peter Pomerantsev likes to tell.

这是彼得·波梅兰采夫喜欢讲的故事。

He's the journalist that I recorded earlier.

他就是我之前记录的那个记者。

Peter used to work in reality TV in Russia, and he's written a lot about Surkov.

彼得曾经在俄罗斯的真人秀节目中工作，他写过很多关于苏尔科夫的文章。

This liberal blogger, liberal photo blogger-- he has a very, very popular blog-- took some photos of the office.

这位自由派博主，自由派照片博主——他有一个非常非常受欢迎的博客——拍了一些办公室的照片。

Of Surkov's office?

苏尔科夫的办公室？

Peter Pomerantsev Yeah, yeah, yeah.

彼得·波梅兰采夫 是啊，是啊，是啊。

He was there to photograph an official meeting, but he said on his blog that he was much more interested in what was in the office.

他去那里是为了拍摄一次正式会议，但他在博客上表示，他对办公室里的东西更感兴趣。

And that's where you have the phones on his desk with the names of all the opposition political parties.

他办公桌上的电话就在那里，上面有所有反对党的名字。

Like literally there's a whole mess of phones.

就像字面上有一堆手机一样。

And on one of them in particular, next to the numbers, there's a bank of buttons labeled Mironov, Zhirinovsky, Zyuganov, all heads of parties.

特别是在其中一张上，在数字旁边，有一排按钮，上面写着米罗诺夫、日里诺夫斯基、久加诺夫，都是政党领袖。

And you have the portrait of-- the photo of Tupac Shakur next to like Machiavelli or something.

你可以看到图帕克·沙库尔（Tupac Shakur）的肖像，旁边是马基雅维利之类的人。

Yes, Tupac Shakur the rapper.

是的，说唱歌手图帕克·沙库尔。

It's actually next to a picture of Barack Obama.

它实际上就在巴拉克·奥巴马的照片旁边。

And at the time everyone was like, oh my god, wow, we've got to see inside Surkov's office.

当时每个人都说，天哪，哇，我们得看看苏尔科夫的办公室里面。

And then many years later when everybody realized that Surkov had been funding this liberal blogger, everyone was like, oh my god, he leaked that.

许多年后，当每个人意识到苏尔科夫一直在资助这位自由派博主时，每个人都说，天哪，他泄露了这一点。

He wanted us to feel his power.

他想让我们感受到他的力量。

And he wanted to create an atmosphere where you can never really tell what's true anymore, so everything is suspect.

他想营造一种氛围，让你永远无法真正分辨什么是真实的，所以一切都是可疑的。

That was absolutely intentional.

这绝对是故意的。

Surkov himself has come just shy of saying it openly.

苏尔科夫本人却不敢公开说出这一点。

This is another shape Surkov is reported to have shifted into.

据报道，这是苏尔科夫转变为的另一种形态。

He wrote a novel under the pseudonym Natan Dubovitsky.

他以笔名纳坦·杜博维茨基写了一本小说。

He won't admit it's really him, but Surkov's wife is named Natalya Dubovitskaya.

他不承认这就是他，但苏尔科夫的妻子名叫娜塔莉亚·杜博维茨卡娅。

So everyone's like, nutty coincidence.

所以每个人都喜欢，疯狂的巧合。

The book's called Almost Zero, or Close to Zero.

这本书的名字叫《几乎为零》或《接近零》。

It's about a PR guy who grew up in the sticks, like Surkov did, moved to Moscow to hang out with bohemian artists, like Surkov did, and is now embroiled in the seedy, murderous underworld of illegal book publishing and distribution.

这是关于一个公关人员的故事，他像苏尔科夫一样在困境中长大，搬到莫斯科与波西米亚艺术家一起出去玩，就像苏尔科夫一样，现在卷入了非法图书出版和发行的肮脏、凶残的黑社会。

Oh, and it's got an English subtitle-- Gangsta Fiction.

哦，它有一个英文字幕——黑帮小说。

In any case, Peter says there are these really telling passages in which the hero realizes, oh, wait, everything's made up-- language, politics, every ideology.

无论如何，彼得说，在这些真正有说服力的段落中，英雄意识到，哦，等等，一切都是编造的——语言、政治、每一种意识形态。

Everything's fake.

一切都是假的。

I can see through it all.

我能看透这一切。

It's an epic kind of cynicism.

这是一种史诗般的愤世嫉俗。

It's not cynicism as in like, oh, I don't believe in anything, but almost like, oh my god, I've burst through the shallow shells of morality and ideology and belief.

这不是犬儒主义，就像，哦，我什么都不相信，而是几乎就像，哦，我的上帝，我冲破了道德、意识形态和信仰的浅薄外壳。

It's like "I'm seeing behind the matrix" kind of thing.

这就像“我看到了矩阵背后”之类的事情。

Yeah, very much.

是的，非常喜欢。

The Matrix was a super popular film in Russia.

《黑客帝国》在俄罗斯是一部非常受欢迎的电影。

I bet.

我敢打赌。

Peter Pomerantsev Which makes sense if you think about Russian history.

彼得·波梅兰采夫（Peter Pomerantsev） 如果你思考一下俄罗斯历史，这是有道理的。

I mean, this generation like Surkov or like Putin, they've lived through Communism.

我的意思是，像苏尔科夫或普京这样的一代人，他们经历过共产主义。

They've lived through the mafia state.

他们经历过黑手党国家。

They've lived through fake democracy, through sort of religious national socialism or an empire building, which they have now.

他们经历过虚假的民主，经历过某种宗教民族社会主义或他们现在拥有的帝国建设。

And it's all the same people.

而且都是同一个人。

And they've gone through so many different modes of being in the last-- what-- 30 years in such blistering progression that they're kind of left with the feeling that everything is a masquerade.

在过去的 30 年里，他们经历了如此多不同的存在模式，经历了如此迅猛的发展，以至于他们感觉一切都是一场假面舞会。

So when Surkov says everything is controlled in a construct, what he's actually saying is not a confession.

因此，当苏尔科夫说一切都被控制在一个结构中时，他实际上所说的并不是坦白。

It's a piece of psychological propaganda to say, so there's no point struggling for anything.

这只是一种心理宣传，所以没有必要为任何事情而奋斗。

Don't even try to do any of your silly protest movements.

甚至不要尝试做任何愚蠢的抗议动作。

So in a way you're killing-- if you tell people that everything is a conspiracy, it doesn't lead people to revolt.

所以从某种程度上来说，你是在杀人——如果你告诉人们一切都是阴谋，这不会导致人们反抗。

It leads people to go--

它引导人们去——

Give up.

放弃吧。

Peter Pomerantsev --well, then I might as well give up.

Peter Pomerantsev——好吧，那我还是放弃吧。

Yeah, yeah.

是啊是啊。

Peter Pomerantsev But again, we might be overinterpreting here.

Peter Pomerantsev 但同样，我们可能在这里过度解释了。

But it's a book, so we're allowed to.

但这是一本书，所以我们可以这样做。

Like I said before, Surkov is no longer the grand manager of propaganda in Russia.

正如我之前所说，苏尔科夫不再是俄罗斯宣传的大管家。

He was sidelined in 2011 after a dispute with Putin.

2011年，他因与普京发生争执而被边缘化。

But he stayed a personal advisor to the president, and he was also an organizer of Russia's takeover of the Crimean Peninsula in Ukraine in 2014.

但他仍然担任总统的私人顾问，也是俄罗斯 2014 年接管乌克兰克里米亚半岛的组织者。

His involvement in that annexation got him sanctioned by the West, meaning he's not allowed to travel to the US or Europe anymore, and he can't have assets in the West either.

他参与吞并行动使他受到了西方的制裁，这意味着他不再被允许前往美国或欧洲，而且他也不能在西方拥有资产。

Surkov was unfazed.

苏尔科夫并不担心。

"The only things that interest me in the US," he said, "are Tupac Shakur, Allen Ginsberg, and Jackson Pollock.

“在美国，我唯一感兴趣的是图帕克·沙库尔、艾伦·金斯伯格和杰克逊·波洛克。”

I don't need a visa to access their work," which, you know, good comeback.

我不需要签证就能获得他们的工作”，你知道，这是一个很好的回归。

Sean Cole is one of the producers of our show.

肖恩·科尔是我们节目的制片人之一。

Surkov, by the way, seems to have been one of the people overseeing Russia's Ukraine policy until a few years ago.

顺便说一句，直到几年前，苏尔科夫似乎一直是监督俄罗斯乌克兰政策的人之一。

There's some hacked emails from his account in 2014 when pro-Moscow separatist groups in Ukraine had declared that two territories on the Russian border were no longer part of Ukraine.

2014 年，乌克兰的亲莫斯科分离主义团体宣布，俄罗斯边境的两块领土不再属于乌克兰，他的帐户中有一些被黑客入侵的电子邮件。

In the email Surkov seems to be managing them.

在电子邮件中，苏尔科夫似乎正在管理它们。

In one of the emails, Surkov received a list of potential leaders for these supposedly independent regions of Ukraine with asterisks by certain names as the best options.

在其中一封电子邮件中，苏尔科夫收到了一份乌克兰这些所谓独立地区的潜在领导人名单，其中某些名字的星号是最佳选择。

And he was asked in one email to edit a statement that allegedly came from Ukrainians living in the separatist-held territories.

在一封电子邮件中，他被要求编辑一份据称来自居住在分离主义控制地区的乌克兰人的声明。

In 2020, Surkov was fired by Vladimir Putin without any public explanation.

2020年，苏尔科夫被弗拉基米尔·普京解雇，没有任何公开解释。

One headline about that read, "Putin fires his puppet master."

有关此事的一个标题是：“普京解雇了他的傀儡主人。”

Act Four, A Matter of Principle.

第四幕，原则问题。

Let's talk about the people in Russia who don't like Vladimir Putin.

让我们谈谈不喜欢弗拉基米尔·普京的俄罗斯人。

There have been protests against the invasion of Ukraine across Russia-- in Moscow, St. Petersburg, other cities.

俄罗斯各地——莫斯科、圣彼得堡和其他城市都爆发了针对乌克兰入侵的抗议活动。

A group that monitors the protests, OVD Info, said that in just the first two days since the invasion over 1,800 protesters were arrested in 60 Russian cities.

监视抗议活动的组织 OVD Info 表示，入侵事件发生后的头两天，俄罗斯 60 个城市就有 1,800 多名抗议者被捕。

Back in 2017 when we first broadcast today's program, there were protests all over the country organized by Putin's most prominent critic, the charismatic opposition leader Alexei Navalny, about government corruption.

早在 2017 年我们首次播出今天的节目时，普京最著名的批评者、魅力十足的反对派领导人阿列克谢·纳瓦尔尼就在全国各地组织了针对政府腐败的抗议活动。

In the years since 2017, Navalny was poisoned, fled to Berlin for treatment.

2017年以来的几年里，纳瓦尔尼中毒，逃往柏林接受治疗。

German authorities said the nerve agent that poisoned him must have come from the Russian government.

德国当局表示，毒害他的神经毒剂肯定来自俄罗斯政府。

When he returned to Russia, he was arrested.

当他返回俄罗斯时，他被捕了。

He's in prison today.

他今天入狱了。

But in 2017 he was turning out huge crowds of young people who showed up because of these great videos that he'd do online about the issues.

但在 2017 年，他吸引了大批年轻人前来，因为他在网上制作了有关这些问题的精彩视频。

After the protests teenagers started posting their own videos to the internet of their teachers lecturing them about the protests, telling them they were wrong about the issues, and the kids arguing back.

抗议活动结束后，青少年开始将自己的视频发布到互联网上，老师向他们讲授抗议活动，告诉他们他们对这些问题的看法是错误的，而孩子们则进行了反击。

You were called in for a lecture by your principal.

你的校长叫你去听讲座。

You think the very idea of your principal lecturing you on the subject of protest is either unjust or absurd or funny or whatever.

你认为你的校长向你讲授抗议主题的想法要么不公正，要么荒谬，要么有趣，或者其他什么。

And so you film it and post it, just like, I think, a lot of 16, 17-year-olds might be tempted to do anywhere.

所以你把它拍下来然后发布出来，就像很多 16 岁、17 岁的人可能会想去任何地方做一样。

Joshua Yaffa is a correspondent for The New Yorker magazine in Moscow.

约书亚·亚法 (Joshua Yaffa) 是《纽约客》杂志驻莫斯科的记者。

And he wrote about one of these videos that was filmed in the provincial town of Bryansk, 200 miles from Moscow.

他写了其中一段视频，该视频是在距莫斯科 200 英里的省级城镇布良斯克拍摄的。

Apparently there was a student there who tried to enlist other kids to go to the protests, which led to their principal and homeroom teacher to talk to them, which they filmed.

显然，那里有一名学生试图招募其他孩子参加抗议活动，这导致他们的校长和班主任与他们交谈，并拍摄了视频。

It's obvious that it was filmed surreptitiously.

很明显，这是偷偷拍摄的。

You see a lot of the desk in front of you and kind of half cut-off shots of the school principal in front of a chalkboard.

你可以看到你面前的很多桌子以及黑板前校长的半截镜头。

OK, and I should say that most of it is just completely black.

好吧，我应该说大部分都是全黑的。

You see nothing, and you hear sound.

你什么也看不见，却听到声音。

And then occasionally the camera sort of bops up.

然后相机偶尔会弹出。

She's essentially saying, with a tone in her voice that suggests you kind of naive, juvenile, somewhat immature in the ways of the world students are interested in this guy Navalny.

她本质上是在说，她的语气表明你有点天真、幼稚，在世界方式上有些不成熟，学生们对纳瓦尔尼这个人感兴趣。

What does he really stand for?

他真正代表什么？

What is he really offering or suggesting other than just getting rid of the country's leaders?

除了摆脱国家领导人之外，他真正提供或建议的是什么？

The principal says, guys, I can see that you're looking at this problem one-sidedly and that you lack range in your political view.

校长说，各位，我看得出你们看待这个问题的方式是片面的，你们的政治观点缺乏范围。

You see Navalny, you watch his video, and boom, you believe it all.

你看到纳瓦尔尼，观看他的视频，然后你就相信了这一切。

When you wrote about this recording in The New Yorker, you described her tone as hectoring and frustrated.

当你在《纽约客》上写到这段录音时，你形容她的语气是恐吓和沮丧的。

I would say that that's really the most interesting or striking thing about the whole video to me, which is to me it sounds like Kira Petrovna, the principal, is experiencing something between confusion, exasperation, anger.

我想说，这对我来说确实是整个视频中最有趣或最引人注目的事情，对我来说，这听起来像是校长基拉·彼得罗夫娜（Kira Petrovna）正在经历困惑、恼怒和愤怒之间的某种情绪。

I think she's really at a loss.

我觉得她真的很失落。

She doesn't understand them, maybe, in the same way that-- I don't know-- five years ago, seven years ago, there was something more shared between her and her students.

也许她不理解它们，就像——我不知道——五年前、七年前，她和她的学生之间有更多的共同点。

At one point she starts defending Vladimir Putin, saying, you can't blame him for the bad economy.

有一次，她开始为弗拉基米尔·普京辩护，她说，你不能把经济不景气归咎于他。

That's because of the sanctions that the European Union and the United States imposed on Russia.

这是因为欧盟和美国对俄罗斯实施的制裁。

And she says on the world stage and foreign policy he's doing a great job, which the students challenge.

她说，在世界舞台和外交政策上，他做得很好，但学生们对此提出了质疑。

The student is asking the principal, OK, so what is our foreign policy?

学生问校长，好吧，那么我们的外交政策是什么？

America is against us.

美国反对我们。

Europe is against us.

欧洲反对我们。

And the principal says, OK, well, why is that?

校长说，好吧，这是为什么呢？

What's the reason?

原因是什么？

And the student, without thinking, says, well, that's because of Crimea.

学生不假思索地说，好吧，那是因为克里米亚。

We took it.

我们拿走了它。

[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Kira Petrovna [SPEAKING RUSSIAN]

[俄语] 基拉·彼得罗夫娜 [俄语]

And the principal, responding with some surprise or indignation, says, so was that bad?

校长有些惊讶或愤慨地回答说，那很糟糕吗？

Because in most of Russia it's seen as like a patriotic thing to have taken Crimea.

因为在俄罗斯大部分地区，占领克里米亚被视为爱国行为。

Yeah.

是的。

The annexation of Crimea is incredibly popular.

吞并克里米亚非常受欢迎。

It's widely perceived to have been a good thing basically.

人们普遍认为这基本上是一件好事。

And then the homeroom teacher jumps in and argues with the kids over Crimea.

然后班主任介入并与孩子们就克里米亚问题争论。

[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Ira Glass The teacher says, did we really take Crimea?

[俄语] Ira Glass 老师说，我们真的占领了克里米亚吗？

Didn't they vote and choose to become part of Russia?

他们不是投票选择成为俄罗斯的一部分吗？

The kids correctly point out, yes, Russia did take Crimea, and the sanctions were the result.

孩子们正确地指出，是的，俄罗斯确实占领了克里米亚，制裁就是结果。

Soon the conversation turns to the fighting in Eastern Ukraine.

很快话题就转向了乌克兰东部的战斗。

Russia officially denies that its soldiers are there, but all kinds of evidence has come out proving that this is untrue.

俄罗斯官方否认有其士兵在那里，但各种证据都证明这是不真实的。

And the principal is essentially trying to blame the crisis in Ukraine on America.

这位校长本质上是试图将乌克兰危机归咎于美国。

Let me read exactly what she says because it's so aggressive.

让我仔细读一下她说的话，因为它太咄咄逼人了。

She says, kid, you haven't read anything about this, and you don't know a thing.

她说，孩子，你什么都没读过，你什么也不知道。

You've got some very superficial knowledge here.

你在这里所掌握的知识非常肤浅。

What started this whole conflict?

整个冲突的起因是什么？

Maybe it was because America stuck its nose in.

也许是因为美国插手了。

And then they start to argue.

然后他们开始争论。

Right.

正确的。

And the student asks somewhat mockingly of the principal, did you see American troops in Ukraine?

学生有点嘲讽地问校长，你在乌克兰看到美军了吗？

And the principal says, did you see Russian troops in Ukraine?

校长说，你在乌克兰看到俄罗斯军队了吗？

And this is this moment where the student reveals just this like basic, elementary, non-ideological factual knowledge, and the student just says, yes.

就在这个时刻，学生揭示了这些基本的、初级的、非意识形态的事实知识，学生只是说，是的。

Da.

达。

Joshua Yaffa There are videos going around.

Joshua Yaffa 有一些视频在流传。

And then comes really maybe my favorite line-- you have no idea.

然后也许是我最喜欢的台词——你不知道。

[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Joshua Yaffa And that to me gets to the key point of this whole dialogue, which is the kids just have access to this information and just a worldview that they've gotten on the internet themselves, information that's not on state TV.

[说俄语]约书亚·亚法（Joshua Yaffa）对我来说，这就是整个对话的关键点，即孩子们只能获取这些信息以及他们自己在互联网上获得的世界观，这些信息不在国家电视台上。

And that alone seems kind of somewhat destabilizing or uncomfortable for the principal.

仅此一点似乎就让校长有点不稳定或不舒服。

The kids don't watch TV the way older Russians do.

孩子们不像老俄罗斯人那样看电视。

The principal tells them, OK, you don't remember how bad it was here before Putin.

校长告诉他们，好吧，你们不记得普京上任之前这里的情况有多糟糕。

The country was in chaos.

国家一片混乱。

People had to carry guns and knives.

人们必须携带枪支和刀具。

And this is when I was in college.

这是我上大学的时候。

[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Ira Glass When she says this and when she parrots talking points that you might hear on Russian state TV, she seems totally sincere.

[说俄语] Ira Glass 当她说这句话时，当她重复你可能在俄罗斯国家电视台听到的谈话要点时，她看起来非常真诚。

As an American watching this, it's one of the things that's actually most interesting about this video.

作为观看此视频的美国人，这是该视频实际上最有趣的事情之一。

You think that these government talking points on Crimea or Ukraine or whatever, you wonder if authorities are just mouthing these points and they don't actually believe them.

你认为这些政府关于克里米亚或乌克兰或其他什么的谈话要点，你想知道当局是否只是口头上讲这些观点，而他们实际上并不相信它们。

When you hear the principal, she seems totally emotional when she runs through these talking points.

当你听到校长讲述这些谈话要点时，她似乎非常情绪化。

But those talking points are, in a way, emotional, couched in the language of patriotism and appeal to history-- Russia as a great power, Russia as this besieged fortress surrounded by enemies who wish it harm.

但从某种程度上来说，这些谈话要点是情绪化的，用爱国主义的语言表达的，并诉诸历史——俄罗斯是一个大国，俄罗斯是一座被围困的堡垒，被那些希望伤害它的敌人所包围。

And the students just seem less receptive to those messages.

而学生们似乎不太容易接受这些信息。

At one point the kids openly laugh at the country's ruling political party, President Putin's party, United Russia.

有一次，孩子们公开嘲笑该国的执政党、普京总统的统一俄罗斯党。

[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Students [SNICKERING]

[说俄语] 学生们 [窃笑]

We're against United Russia, the kid's saying.

我们反对统一俄罗斯党，孩子说。

The student asked everybody to raise their hands who is against United Russia.

学生要求所有反对统一俄罗斯党的人举手。

And then you get the sense-- this part is dark in the video.

然后你就会感觉到——这部分在视频中是黑暗的。

You get the sense that lots of hands are going up.

你会感觉到有很多人举手。

[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Students [CHATTERING]

[说俄语] 学生们 [喋喋不休]

Ira Glass This is one of the things that's interesting to me about this, because I feel like we read about how the Russian government sort of floods the zone in their own country with all kinds of misinformation and disinformation to make people feel that Putin is doing a great job.

艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：这是我感兴趣的事情之一，因为我觉得我们读到了俄罗斯政府如何在自己国家的地区充斥着各种错误信息和虚假信息，让人们觉得普京做得很好。

And here it seems like you have a bunch of kids who just seem utterly immune to it.

在这里，似乎有一群孩子似乎对此完全免疫。

Yeah.

是的。

And that, I think, must freak out the political advisors and political technologists, as they're called here in Russia, in the Kremlin who just seem to have lost the country's youth.

我认为，这肯定会吓坏政治顾问和政治技术专家，正如他们在俄罗斯克里姆林宫的称呼一样，他们似乎失去了这个国家的年轻人。

They just don't seem to be able to come up with the kind of messages and rhetoric that, for an older generation, worked so easily and naturally, and it flowed with so little resistance.

他们似乎无法想出那种对于老一代人来说如此轻松自然、毫无阻力的信息和言辞。

Joshua Yaffa of The New Yorker magazine in Moscow.

莫斯科《纽约客》杂志的约书亚·亚法 (Joshua Yaffa)。

Well, the original version of today's program back in 2017 was produced by Jonathan Menjivar.

嗯，今天节目的原始版本是 2017 年由 Jonathan Menjivar 制作的。

Our update of the program today was produced by Chris Benderev and David Kestenbaum with help from Mike Comite, Katherine Rae Mondo, Michelle Navarro, Stowe Nelson, and Matt Tierney.

我们今天更新的节目由 Chris Benderev 和 David Kestenbaum 制作，并得到了 Mike Comite、Katherine Rae Mondo、Michelle Navarro、Stowe Nelson 和 Matt Tierney 的帮助。

Special thanks today to Alisa Sopova, Oleg Krishtal, Dan Charles, Christopher Miller, Tanya Lokot, Mika Golubovsky, John Earle, Robin Hessman, Max Pozdorovkin, Matvey Kulakov, Andrew Wilson, Arkady Ostrovsky, Christopher Chivvis, Radio Free Europe Radio Liberty, John Dunlop, Yuri Felstinsky, Andrei Nekrasov, Anastacia Anishchenko, Ramzia Polizzi, Neli Esipova, Nikolai Zlobin, and Alexey Kovalev.

今天特别感谢 Alisa Sopova、Oleg Krishtal、Dan Charles、Christopher Miller、Tanya Lokot、Mika Golubovsky、John Earle、Robin Hessman、Max Pozdorovkin、Matvey Kulakov、Andrew Wilson、Arkady Ostrovsky、Christopher Chivvis、自由欧洲广播电台、John Dunlop、Yuri Felstinsky、Andrei Nekrasov、Anastacia Anishchenko、Ramzia波利齐、内利·埃西波娃、尼古拉·兹洛宾和阿列克谢·科瓦列夫。

Our translation of the Russian student video was done by the website Global Voices.

我们对俄罗斯学生视频的翻译是由全球之声网站完成的。

Our website, thisamericanlife.org.

我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。

This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.

《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。

Thanks as always to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.

一如既往地感谢我们计划的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。

Obviously, like so many public figures, people ask him all the time, did he ever meet with Russian officials during the transition to Donald Trump's presidency?

显然，像许多公众人物一样，人们一直在问他，在唐纳德·特朗普总统任期过渡期间，他是否曾与俄罗斯官员会面？

Nyet.

还没有。

Nyet.

还没有。

Nyet.

还没有。

Nyet.

还没有。

No!

不！

Ira Glass I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life.

艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 我是艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass），下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。

This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.

《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。