760: A City Walks Into an Investigation - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #760 | January 28, 2022 760: A City Walks Into an Investigation Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 760 集 | 2022 年 1 月 28 日 760：一座城市走进调查 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
序言：序言 来自 WBEZ 芝加哥的 Ira Glass，这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
OK.
好的。
Let me catch you up.
让我来追上你。
If you didn't hear last week's show, we are picking up that story this week.
如果您没有听过上周的节目，我们本周将继续讲述这个故事。
And if you didn't hear it, I can bring you up to speed very quickly.
如果您没有听到，我可以很快地让您了解最新情况。
OK, there's a couple, the Mathises, Rob and Reyna, and they're looking for a house.
好的，有一对夫妇，马西斯夫妇、罗布和雷纳，他们正在找房子。
And they tour a pretty nice one.
他们巡演了一场相当不错的巡演。
But then they see some Confederate flags in the downstairs rooms.
但随后他们在楼下的房间里看到了一些南方联盟的旗帜。
They go upstairs, and in a bedroom, there's something in a picture frame on the wall.
他们上楼，在一间卧室里，墙上挂着一个相框里的东西。
So I look up at the picture, and I lean in and look at it.
于是我抬头看着那张照片，然后俯下身子看着它。
I'm like, are you kidding me?
我说，你在开玩笑吧？
This is a KKK application.
这是一个 KKK 应用程序。
All of a sudden, I hear him cussing and coming down the stairs.
突然，我听到他咒骂着走下楼梯。
And he's like, we gotta go now.
他说，我们现在得走了。
Turns out the house and the Confederate flags and the KKK application were owned by a police officer named Charles Anderson.
事实证明，这所房子、南方联盟旗帜和三K党申请书的所有者是一位名叫查尔斯·安德森的警官。
He was on the police force in their town, Muskegon, Michigan, which is a town of 38,000 on the Western side of Michigan Lake, right on the lake.
他是密歇根州马斯基根镇的警察，这个小镇位于密歇根湖西侧，就在湖边，有 38,000 人。
The Mathises decide they're going to go public with this discovery, mostly because Rob thinks if someday this officer pulls over a Black couple and does something horrible, he doesn't want to wish that he had said something.
马西斯夫妇决定将这一发现公之于众，主要是因为罗布认为，如果有一天这位警官拦住一对黑人夫妇并做了一些可怕的事情，他不想希望自己说了些什么。
He wants to warn people.
他想警告人们。
Rob, by the way, is Black.
顺便说一句，罗布是黑人。
Reyna is Mexican-American.
雷纳是墨西哥裔美国人。
Officer Anderson is white.
安德森警官是白人。
So they post about it on Facebook, and it blows up.
于是他们在脸书上发布了这件事，结果引起了轩然大波。
People come forward.
人们挺身而出。
They say they've had troubling run-ins with this officer in the past.
他们说，他们过去曾与这名警官发生过令人不安的冲突。
Officer Anderson is suspended while the police department investigates.
安德森警官在警察局调查期间被停职。
OK, so last time on our show, Ben Calhoun, one of our editors and producers here, told the story of the Mathises.
好的，上次在我们的节目中，我们的编辑和制片人之一本·卡尔霍恩 (Ben Calhoun) 讲述了马西斯夫妇的故事。
And we heard the testimony that Officer Anderson gave to police investigators about the whole thing.
我们听到了安德森警官向警方调查人员提供的关于整个事件的证词。
And we heard from Anderson's wife about how and why they got that KKK application.
我们从安德森的妻子那里听说了他们如何以及为何收到三K党的申请。
We also heard from a former pastor named Duke Stalling, who told a story about what Officer Anderson could be like as a cop, how Anderson showed up at his mother's 59th birthday party and ended up pepper spraying a bunch of his older relatives.
我们还听到了一位名叫杜克·斯托林 (Duke Stalling) 的前牧师的故事，他讲述了安德森警官作为一名警察会是什么样子，安德森如何出现在他母亲的 59 岁生日聚会上，最后向他的一群年长亲戚喷了胡椒喷雾。
Some people fought.
有些人打架了。
Some-- I can't see.
有些——我看不到。
You hear a bunch of screaming and trying to run.
你听到一群尖叫声和试图逃跑的声音。
They were not causing any harm to him at all.
他们根本没有对他造成任何伤害。
Like, nobody's crazy enough to hit a police.
就像，没有人疯狂到殴打警察。
My family, we're not crazy.
我的家人，我们没有疯。
Nobody's going to put their hands on a police officer or anything like that.
没有人会把手放在警察或类似的人身上。
Today, Ben turns to the story of the city's investigation into Officer Anderson, which played out in a strange and surprising way that had serious consequences for the Mathises.
今天，本讲述了该市对安德森警官进行调查的故事，调查以一种奇怪而令人惊讶的方式展开，给马西斯一家带来了严重后果。
Ben starts with Act 1, Chief Lewis Adds It Up.
本从第一幕开始，刘易斯酋长添加了它。
Here's Ben.
这是本。
So there was the official investigation into Officer Anderson by the Muskegon Police Department's internal affairs team.
于是马斯基根警察局内务小组对安德森警官进行了正式调查。
As you might have heard last week, that investigation went kind of soft on him.
正如您上周可能听说的那样，这项调查对他来说有点温和。
The investigator literally invited Anderson to, quote, "explain away the situation."
调查员确实邀请安德森“解释一下情况”。
But while that investigation was unfolding, the police chief, Jeff Lewis, was taking his own look at Anderson, a harder, more critical look.
但当调查正在进行时，警察局长杰夫·刘易斯以一种更严厉、更批判的眼光审视安德森。
It turned out Lewis had questions about Anderson before any of this happened.
事实证明，在这一切发生之前，刘易斯就对安德森产生了疑问。
In fact, a year before the Mathises' post, a video had popped up online that made Lewis worried about Anderson.
事实上，在马西斯夫妇发表帖子的前一年，网上出现了一段视频，让刘易斯对安德森感到担忧。
We watched this together.
我们一起看了这个。
It was a cell phone video taken at night with a woman being pushed into the back of a Muskegon police car.
这是一段在夜间用手机拍摄的视频，一名女子被推到马斯基根警车的后座上。
Anderson is standing behind the officer doing the pushing.
安德森站在警官身后推动。
And then you see two women walk up, one younger and then an elderly woman right next to her, both Black, like everyone in the video but Anderson.
然后你看到两个女人走了过来，一个年轻，然后一个年长的女人就在她旁边，都是黑人，就像视频中除了安德森之外的每个人一样。
So Anderson turns, and he sees the women.
于是安德森转过身来，他看到了那些女人。
I'm sure he has his side of the story.
我确信他有他的观点。
But as you can see, he spins around and just, without even trying to verbally de-escalate or do anything, he just shoves this elderly woman to the ground, which is just inappropriate.
但正如你所看到的，他转过身来，甚至没有试图在口头上缓和局势或做任何事情，他只是把这位老妇人推倒在地，这是不恰当的。
It is wrong.
这是错误的。
It's just out of bounds, period.
这简直是越界了，就这样。
Why you just knee that lady right there?
为什么你就跪在那儿那位女士？
Hey, you pushed that old lady.
嘿，你推了那个老太太。
You should be ashamed of yourself.
你应该为自己感到羞耻。
I just can't justify that.
我只是无法证明这一点。
I just can't, anyway I look at it.
我实在是没办法，反正我还是看看吧。
I can't even say he was technically right because I don't remember ever throwing down a grandmother in my career.
我什至不能说他在技术上是正确的，因为我不记得在我的职业生涯中曾经摔倒过祖母。
I just didn't feel like throwing a grandma down.
我只是不想把奶奶扔下去。
A complaint was filed about this incident and Lewis took note.
针对这一事件提出了投诉，刘易斯注意到了这一点。
He was concerned that Anderson was kind of a cowboy and aggressive.
他担心安德森有点像牛仔，而且很有攻击性。
Then, the very same week the Mathises posted, he heard another story about Anderson.
然后，就在马西斯发帖的同一周，他听到了另一个关于安德森的故事。
A Black business owner he knew told him about a disturbing run-in she'd had with him, that he'd been rude and aggressive and told her to shut up.
他认识的一位黑人企业主告诉他，她与他发生了一次令人不安的冲突，他粗鲁且咄咄逼人，并让她闭嘴。
Then once all this started to blow up, Lewis says some officers started to come to him discreetly and tell him they had concerns about Anderson, which prompted him to tally up everything he knew about Anderson.
然后，一旦这一切开始爆发，刘易斯说，一些警官开始谨慎地来找他，告诉他他们对安德森感到担忧，这促使他统计了他所知道的关于安德森的一切。
There's the Julius Johnson shooting.
朱利叶斯·约翰逊枪击案发生了。
I talked about last time, where Anderson killed an unarmed Black man.
我上次谈到安德森杀死了一名手无寸铁的黑人。
That was before Lewis arrived in Muskegon, and Anderson was officially cleared of any wrongdoing.
那是在刘易斯抵达马斯基根之前，安德森被正式澄清没有任何不当行为。
But Lewis questioned Anderson's judgment and the decisions that he made that led to the shooting.
但刘易斯质疑安德森的判断以及他做出的导致枪击事件的决定。
He added, on top of that, two other shootings Anderson was involved in, in addition to Julius Johnson.
他补充说，除朱利叶斯·约翰逊之外，安德森还参与了另外两起枪击事件。
If you look at the national average-- I've been a police officer for 40 years and involved in no shootings.
如果你看一下全国平均水平——我当了 40 年警察，没有发生过枪击事件。
The vast majority of police officers go through their career and never shoot anyone.
绝大多数警察在其职业生涯中从未开枪射击过任何人。
I don't think the public knows that.
我认为公众不知道这一点。
Nobody keeps national statistics on the percentage of officers that shoot people.
没有人保存关于开枪射击的警察比例的全国统计数据。
A Pew study says only 27% of police officers have even fired their guns, but that includes warning shots and shooting animals, anything else.
皮尤研究中心的一项研究表明，只有 27% 的警察开过枪，其中包括鸣枪示警和射杀动物等。
One expert told us the number of police who have actually shot and killed someone is almost certainly less than 1%.
一位专家告诉我们，几乎可以肯定，真正开枪打死人的警察人数不到 1%。
I couldn't even find a statistic or a department like this, and you're involved in three shootings.
我什至找不到这样的统计数据或部门，而你却卷入了三起枪击事件。
You think he was an outlier in that way?
你认为他在这方面是个异类吗？
Yeah.
是的。
I mean, either you have the worst luck or something's going on here.
我的意思是，要么你运气最差，要么这里出了什么问题。
And then when you looked at his history, there was a progressive, I guess, glaring performance with him when it came to dealing with African-Americans especially.
然后，当你回顾他的历史时，我想，特别是在与非裔美国人打交道时，他表现出了进步的、引人注目的表现。
In other words, he seemed to have a lot of problems with African-Americans through his career.
换句话说，在他的职业生涯中，他似乎与非裔美国人存在很多问题。
Lewis said Anderson would have these kind of problematic interactions with Black people.
刘易斯说安德森与黑人的互动会出现这种问题。
But over and over again, he'd be cleared, found to be within the bounds of department policy.
但一次又一次，他被证明是在部门政策范围内的。
His whole career, things would happen and he would kind of come out the other side.
在他的整个职业生涯中，总会发生一些事情，而他也会从另一面走出来。
And I'm not sure why.
我不知道为什么。
I mean, you'd have to go back and look at every incident.
我的意思是，你必须回去查看每一个事件。
I've had officers get in car accidents.
我曾遇到过警察遭遇车祸的情况。
And let's say you have an officer in five car accidents, and none was his fault.
假设一名警官发生了五起车祸，而且没有一起事故是他的错。
As a chief, you go, OK, it appears it's not your fault.
作为酋长，你走了，好吧，看来这不是你的错。
But why are you in five not-at-fault accidents, when the other 99% of the officers aren't having this?
但为什么其他 99% 的警察都没有发生过这种事故，而你却发生了 5 起无过错事故呢？
What are you doing that you keep getting in accidents and you're not at fault?
你在做什么，却不断发生事故，而你却没有过错？
We got a big pile of cars you wrecked, but you're never at fault.
我们有一大堆你毁坏的汽车，但你从来没有过错。
Chuck is one of those kind of things where, when I looked at his past, there's good things in there.
查克就是这样一种人，当我回顾他的过去时，他身上有很多美好的东西。
I'm not going to take that away from him.
我不会把它从他身边夺走。
I started seeing a pattern that he just wasn't effective with our African-American citizens.
我开始发现他对我们的非裔美国公民没有有效的办法。
He just wasn't.
他只是不是。
So what are you going to do?
那么你要做什么？
Lewis says he knew pretty quickly what he was going to do.
刘易斯说他很快就知道自己要做什么。
He wanted to fire Anderson, partly on principle.
他想解雇安德森，部分原因是出于原则。
2 plus 2 is 4, he told me.
2 加 2 等于 4，他告诉我。
Anderson has a problem with Black people.
安德森对黑人有意见。
There was no doubt in my mind.
我心中毫无疑问。
But also, on top of that, lots of people were telling Lewis he had no choice.
但除此之外，很多人告诉刘易斯他别无选择。
He had to get rid of this officer.
他必须除掉这个军官。
The city's social justice committee, the city's vice mayor-- who's also the president of the local NAACP-- everyone was saying if Anderson stayed, there'd be backlash, protests, hostility.
该市的社会正义委员会、该市的副市长——同时也是当地全国有色人种协进会的主席——每个人都在说，如果安德森留下来，就会出现强烈反对、抗议和敌意。
And not just towards Anderson, but towards everyone on the force.
不仅针对安德森，还针对原力中的每个人。
It's going to endanger him and my other 79 officers.
这将危及他和我的其他 79 名军官。
And matter of fact, I'm not going to be part of this agency if that's how we're going to be.
事实上，如果我们打算成为这样的人，我就不会成为这个机构的一员。
I said, I cannot, in good conscience, bring him back here and put him back on the streets of this town.
我说，凭良心说，我不能把他带回这里，把他放回这个镇的街道上。
So at this point in our story, you've got a town where lots of people think a police officer has a problem with Black people.
因此，在我们故事的这一点上，有一个小镇，很多人认为警察对黑人有问题。
The white police chief looks into it and agrees.
白人警察局长调查后表示同意。
It seems like a clear-cut case.
这似乎是一个明确的案例。
Fire the officer, call out his bad behavior, apologize to the public.
解雇该警官，指出他的不良行为，并向公众道歉。
And yet, that is not what ends up happening.
然而，这并不是最终发生的事情。
Which brings us to Act 2, The Way it Actually Happened.
这就把我们带到了第二幕，它实际发生的方式。
Now to the breaking news out of Muskegon, where a police officer who had Ku Klux Klan memorabilia in his home has been fired.
现在马斯基根传来突发新闻，一名在家中藏有三K党纪念品的警察被解雇。
When the news hit that Chief Lewis did what he said and fired officer Anderson, there was no explanation why he was fired.
当刘易斯警长按照他所说的那样解雇安德森警官的消息传出时，没有解释他被解雇的原因。
The closest they got to that came 11 days later, when the city released their official report on Anderson, the result of the investigation Chief Lewis ordered.
最接近这一目标的是 11 天后，当时该市发布了关于安德森的官方报告，这是刘易斯局长下令进行的调查的结果。
This report, it's one of the reasons I got interested in this.
这份报告是我对此感兴趣的原因之一。
It's over 400 pages, so it seems like it's going to be kind of a reckoning of the kind of officer Anderson had been during his two decades on the Muskegon police force and include all the incidents you've heard about, settle some big questions about the kind of officer he was.
这本书有 400 多页，所以看起来这将是对安德森在马斯基根警察部队的二十年里所扮演的警官类型的一种清算，包括你听说过的所有事件，解决关于他是什么样的警官的一些重大问题。
But the report was nothing like that.
但报告并非如此。
The report almost entirely portrays Officer Anderson as, well, a pretty great police officer.
该报告几乎完全将安德森警官描绘成一位非常出色的警官。
It's hundreds of pages clearing him of wrongdoing and showcasing things he'd done well in his career.
数百页的内容澄清了他的不当行为，并展示了他在职业生涯中做得很好的事情。
It was so much so that, the first time I read it, I didn't even understand how this was used as justification for Anderson being fired.
太多了，以至于我第一次读到它时，我什至不明白这是如何被用来作为安德森被解雇的理由的。
So much of what had come up and what people were talking about wasn't even addressed.
很多发生的事情和人们谈论的事情甚至都没有得到解决。
Like, there's an analysis of Anderson's traffic stop, showing it did not appear he was targeting non-white drivers.
比如，对安德森交通堵塞的分析表明，他似乎并不是针对非白人司机。
There's a big section about his commendations.
有很大一部分内容是关于他的赞扬。
There's 10 interviews with officers, white and non-white, talking about how they think Anderson's fair and a good officer, and they wish he could come back to work.
有 10 名警官（白人和非白人）接受采访，谈论他们如何认为安德森是公平的、好警官，并希望他能够重返工作岗位。
Some seem boilerplate, but others seem heartfelt.
有些看起来是套话，但另一些看起来是发自内心的。
One Black officer, without prompting, talks about how Anderson has gone out of his way to help him at work and been a guest at his house.
一名黑人警官在没有提示的情况下讲述了安德森如何在工作中竭尽全力帮助他，并在他家做客。
"He's been to your house?" the investigator asks.
“他去过你家吗？”调查员问道。
"He has," says the Black officer.
“他有，”黑人军官说。
"He helped me put a roof on my house, and his father and wife spent the whole day at my house."
“他帮我盖了屋顶，他的父亲和妻子在我家待了一整天。”
So many of the things the chief found so disturbing that convinced him Anderson had a problem with Black people, they just weren't in there.
酋长发现的许多事情如此令人不安，以至于他确信安德森对黑人有问题，但他们根本不在那里。
Like the video of him pushing the old woman onto the ground, or Lewis' concerns about the number of people Anderson shot.
比如他把老妇人推倒在地的视频，或者刘易斯对安德森射杀人数的担忧。
The only interview where anyone says anything negative about Anderson is the interview with the Mathises, and they only talk about the flags and the KKK application.
唯一一次有人对安德森提出负面看法的采访是对马西斯夫妇的采访，他们只谈论了旗帜和三K党的申请。
A local activist, Ebony Davis, summed up the report this way-- "He was a great officer.
当地活动人士埃博尼·戴维斯 (Ebony Davis) 如此总结该报告：“他是一位伟大的军官。
He didn't do anything wrong but have memorabilia, and they fired him to keep us happy."
他没有做错任何事，但有一些纪念品，他们解雇了他是为了让我们高兴。”
So how did we get to this, from a police chief who believes this officer has a problem with Black people to this mammoth report that doesn't say that at all?
那么，我们是如何得出这个结论的，从一位认为该警官对黑人有问题的警察局长，到这份根本没有这么说的庞大报告？
Chief Lewis' investigators handed him a report that comes to very different conclusions than he had.
刘易斯局长的调查人员向他提交了一份报告，该报告得出的结论与他的结论截然不同。
It's the report you'd issue if you wanted to keep Anderson on the streets.
如果你想让安德森继续流落街头，你就会发布这份报告。
I never got an answer to why the report is just this laudatory stuff.
我一直不明白为什么这份报告只是赞美之词。
I asked to talk to the people who did the investigation.
我要求与进行调查的人交谈。
The city said no. I asked Chief Lewis.
市政府说不。我问刘易斯酋长。
Surprisingly, he told me he thought the report was critical.
令人惊讶的是，他告诉我他认为这份报告很重要。
Honestly, it seemed like he hadn't read it in a while, and maybe he didn't remember.
说实话，他好像有一段时间没有读过这本书了，也许他不记得了。
What the heck had happened inside Muskegon city government that could possibly connect those dots?
马斯基根市政府内部到底发生了什么可能将这些点联系起来？
The best answer I got is here, in Act 3, How to Fire a Police Officer.
我得到的最佳答案就在第三幕“如何解雇警察”中。
OK, let's go back to that moment when Chief Lewis decided he wanted to fire Anderson.
好吧，让我们回到刘易斯酋长决定解雇安德森的那一刻。
Not because of the official investigation-- he hadn't even seen that yet.
不是因为官方调查——他甚至还没有看到这一点。
He wanted to fire Anderson because of his own analysis.
他想解雇安德森是因为他自己的分析。
After he decided that, he met with the city's lawyers and they talked about how it would be tricky to fire Anderson.
在他做出决定后，他会见了该市的律师，他们谈到解雇安德森将是多么棘手。
And it'd be tricky because of the reason Lewis wanted to get rid of him.
这会很棘手，因为刘易斯想摆脱他。
It's hard to prove a police officer treats Black people differently and has a pattern of discriminating.
很难证明警察区别对待黑人并且存在歧视模式。
They said, if Lewis tried to fire him for that, he really might fail.
他们说，如果刘易斯试图因此解雇他，他真的可能会失败。
Like, take the video of Anderson shoving the old woman.
比如，拍摄安德森推推老妇的视频。
Anderson could argue it was justified, or maybe it was an accident.
安德森可能会辩称这是合理的，也可能是一次意外。
Take any of these incidents one by one, and he could say that there was some reason.
这些事情一一列举，他都可以说是有原因的。
Because there's always a defense.
因为总有防守。
Mr. Anderson had a defense.
安德森先生有一个辩护。
Mr. Anderson had representation.
安德森先生有代表。
Chief Lewis says he called around to other police chiefs and police union officials.
刘易斯警长说，他打电话给其他警察局长和警察工会官员。
As I told you before, around the state, a lot of people went, you'll never sustain that.
正如我之前告诉过你的，在全州各地，很多人都去了，你永远无法维持这种状态。
In the union world, I was told by a lot of people that, if my decision was to terminate, that it would not be sustained.
在工会世界里，很多人告诉我，如果我决定终止，它就不会持续下去。
That you wouldn't have grounds for termination?
你没有理由终止合同吗？
I would probably lose it later on down the road.
我可能会在以后的路上失去它。
And it happens.
它发生了。
I mean, there's-- just since I've been here, I would say there's probably three different times people have been fired and awarded their jobs back.
我的意思是，自从我来到这里以来，我想说可能有三次不同的时间人们被解雇并重新获得工作机会。
Muskegon city manager, Frank Peterson.
马斯基根城市经理弗兰克·彼得森。
He was in these meetings with Chief Lewis and Muskegon's lawyers.
他正在与刘易斯酋长和马斯基根的律师会面。
And we just did not want that to happen in this case.
我们只是不希望这种情况发生。
Some of the cases, we're OK with it.
对于某些情况，我们可以接受。
But this one was, under no circumstance could we afford to have him be awarded his job back.
但在任何情况下，我们都无法让他重新获得工作机会。
It's hard to fire a police officer.
解雇一名警察很难。
That's true pretty much everywhere in this country.
在这个国家几乎所有地方都是如此。
As you probably know, police unions are powerful.
您可能知道，警察工会非常强大。
They have lots of protections in their contracts.
他们的合同中有很多保护措施。
And the instances where police officers do get fired for racism-- there have been a bunch of cases over the last couple of years, in Wilmington, North Carolina, Albany, New York, Warren, Michigan.
过去几年，北卡罗来纳州威尔明顿、纽约州奥尔巴尼、密歇根州沃伦等地发生了很多警察因种族主义而被解雇的案例。
And the thing is, in all those cases, police were not fired for mistreating people of color on the job.
问题是，在所有这些案件中，警察都没有因为在工作中虐待有色人种而被解雇。
They were fired for things they said, because they write racist comments online, or they get caught on a recording saying explicitly racist things.
他们因为自己所说的话而被解雇，因为他们在网上发表种族主义言论，或者他们在录音中公开说过种族主义言论。
There's a caught red-handedness to it.
这是一种当场抓获的行为。
And the way those departments fired the officers was by arguing the racist comments violated the basic code of conduct for their jobs.
这些部门解雇官员的方式是认为种族主义言论违反了他们工作的基本行为准则。
Like, the code of ethics in Wilmington says, officers can't do things that reflect unfavorably on the Department or themselves.
就像威尔明顿的道德准则规定，官员不能做对部门或他们自己不利的事情。
And Chief Lewis, after puzzling for a while over what legal argument he could use to fire Anderson, he had kind of an "aha" moment, and he kind of stumbled into a strategy like that, like the other cities used.
刘易斯酋长在思考了一段时间他可以用什么法律依据来解雇安德森之后，他突然灵机一动，就像其他城市所使用的那样，他偶然发现了这样的策略。
In our policy procedures, one of the things you have to do is you, yourself, have to have the community trust in you.
在我们的政策程序中，你必须做的事情之一就是你自己必须让社区信任你。
It's in our policy procedures.
这是我们的政策程序。
The community has to have some kind of trust in you to carry out your duties.
社区必须对你有某种程度的信任才能履行你的职责。
I looked it up and, indeed, this wasn't some technicality buried deep in department policy.
我查了一下，确实，这并不是部门政策中深藏的技术细节。
It was right at the beginning.
一开始就是这样。
In the chief's preface that Lewis wrote himself, he refers to the public trust.
在刘易斯亲自撰写的酋长序言中，他提到了公众的信任。
When Lewis told me that this was his argument, that he was going to try to fire Anderson for losing the public's trust, I could not help but think, if this was the bar everywhere for every officer, a lot of officers would be fired tomorrow.
当刘易斯告诉我这是他的论点，他打算因失去公众信任而解雇安德森时，我不禁想到，如果这是每个警官的酒吧，明天很多警官就会被解雇。
Less than half of Americans say they have confidence in police these days.
如今，只有不到一半的美国人表示他们对警察有信心。
One benefit of this strategy was simplicity.
这一策略的好处之一是简单。
All they had to prove was that Anderson had the stuff in his house and that people said he couldn't be trusted because of it.
他们所要做的就是证明安德森家里有这些东西，并且人们因此说他不值得信任。
Lewis wouldn't have to argue all these individual incidents that the lawyers told him you might lose on.
刘易斯不必争论律师告诉他你可能会输掉的所有这些个别事件。
Another appealing thing about this plan-- it'd be fast.
这个计划的另一个吸引人的地方是——速度很快。
Lewis wanted to send a message by acting quickly.
刘易斯想通过迅速行动来传递信息。
And in fact, from the day the Mathises posted, it was only five weeks until Anderson was fired.
事实上，从马西斯夫妇发帖的那天起，距离安德森被解雇只有五周时间。
Amazingly quick for this kind of thing.
对于这种事情来说，速度快得惊人。
But to make sure Anderson wouldn't fight them and try to get his job back, the chief did seem to give a few things away at the bargaining table.
但为了确保安德森不会与他们对抗并试图夺回他的工作，这位酋长似乎确实在谈判桌上做出了一些让步。
For starters, he didn't really fire Anderson.
首先，他并没有真正解雇安德森。
In actuality, Anderson signed a separation agreement.
事实上，安德森签署了一份分居协议。
He agreed to walk away voluntarily, not say anything bad about the city, not sue to keep his job.
他同意自愿离开，不说这座城市的坏话，也不起诉以保住工作。
It was just going to be over.
一切都快要结束了。
In exchange, the city would let him leave with his pension and retirement health care benefits after two decades on the job.
作为交换，该市将允许他在工作二十年后带着养老金和退休医疗福利离开。
This strategy for getting rid of a police officer is not unusual.
这种除掉警察的策略并不罕见。
A former police chief, named, Daniel Oates, wrote an article in The Washington Post where he said, in nine years running the department in Aurora, Colorado, he had 16 cops he wanted to fire.
一位名叫丹尼尔·奥茨 (Daniel Oates) 的前警察局长在《华盛顿邮报》上发表了一篇文章，他在文章中表示，在管理科罗拉多州奥罗拉市警察局的九年时间里，他想要解雇 16 名警察。
He only fired four of them.
他只解雇了其中四人。
He was reversed on three of those.
他在其中三项上被逆转。
So with the other 12, he says, he, quote, "bent over backwards to negotiate their departures with creative severance packages." Not because he wanted to-- he felt he had no other choice.
因此，他说，对于另外 12 名员工，“竭尽全力通过富有创意的遣散费来谈判他们的离职事宜。”不是因为他想——他觉得他别无选择。
In the negotiations between the city and Officer Anderson, the complaints about Anderson's history did come up, but it's kind of like a bargaining chip.
在市政府和安德森警官的谈判中，确实出现了对安德森历史的抱怨，但这有点像讨价还价的筹码。
Lewis told me he made it clear to Anderson and the union that the case for his termination was based on what was in his house and how he lost the public trust.
刘易斯告诉我，他向安德森和工会明确表示，解雇他的理由是基于他家里的情况以及他如何失去公众信任。
They said if Anderson fought them, it could become about a lot more.
他们说，如果安德森与他们战斗，事情可能会变得更加严重。
It could become about Anderson's past and other things that he'd done.
它可能会涉及安德森的过去和他所做的其他事情。
And so I was prepared to show this pattern.
所以我准备展示这种模式。
And I had other complaints that were in the hopper, that were coming forth, that I was going to inquire in those next.
我还有其他投诉正在漏斗中出现，我将在接下来的投诉中进行询问。
And the union knew it.
工会也知道这一点。
Oh, if you win this one, this is coming next, then this could become next.
哦，如果你赢了这个，这就是下一个，那么这可能会成为下一个。
And so that's why it was decided that we would just end this relationship, and he would move on.
所以这就是为什么我们决定结束这段关系，而他将继续前进。
In other words, if Anderson took this deal, the city wouldn't dig into that stuff.
换句话说，如果安德森接受了这笔交易，市政府就不会深入研究这些东西。
Anderson could walk away without a real reckoning over his past.
安德森可以在没有真正反思自己的过去的情况下走开。
That's the best explanation I have for why the 421-page report is the way it is and why it doesn't really dig in to Anderson's mistreatment of people.
这是我对为什么这份 421 页的报告是这样的，以及为什么它没有真正深入探讨安德森虐待他人的问题的最好解释。
I should mention, in his preface to the report, the chief promises more.
我应该提到，这位负责人在报告的序言中承诺了更多。
He says there will be further investigation into additional complaints against Officer Anderson's behavior on the job, now that this part's done.
他表示，既然这部分工作已经完成，将会对针对安德森警官在工作中的行为的其他投诉进行进一步调查。
That didn't happen though, and it's been two years.
但这并没有发生，已经过去两年了。
A Department spokesman told me there are no additional investigations into Anderson in the works.
该部门的一位发言人告诉我，目前没有对安德森进行进一步的调查。
Ben Calhoun.
本·卡尔霍恩.
Coming up, the way that the city's deal with Officer Anderson affected the Mathises, who looked at that 421-page report and found something totally surprising about themselves in there.
接下来，市政府与安德森警官的交易对马西斯夫妇产生了影响，他们看了那份 421 页的报告，发现里面有一些关于他们自己的完全令人惊讶的事情。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
This is This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass with our story about policing and Muskegon Michigan.
我是艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass），讲述我们关于警务和密歇根州马斯基根的故事。
Today's episode, A City Walks into an Investigation.
今天的节目《一座城市介入调查》。
So the police chief made a trade-off.
于是警察局长做了一个权衡。
He believed officer Anderson had a problem with Black people.
他认为安德森警官对黑人有问题。
He believed it completely affected the way he did his job.
他相信这完全影响了他的工作方式。
But he thought he couldn't fire him for it.
但他认为自己不能因此解雇他。
So he forced him out for, quote, "losing the public's trust" with that KKK application.
因此，他强迫他退出，引用三K党的申请，“失去了公众的信任”。
And as part of the deal, the city's official 421-page report did not say anything negative about how Anderson treated Black people on his job.
作为协议的一部分，该市 421 页的官方报告没有对安德森在工作中对待黑人的方式做出任何负面评价。
That trade-off-- Anderson had to leave, but he kept his pension.
这种权衡——安德森不得不离开，但他保留了养老金。
The city's official investigation portrayed him as an outstanding officer.
该市的官方调查把他描绘成一名杰出的官员。
That trade-off had consequences for the people whose Facebook posts began all of this, the Mathises, and for others.
这种权衡对 Facebook 帖子引发这一切的人、马西斯夫妇以及其他人产生了影响。
Ben Calhoun picks up with Act 4, People who got the Short End of Anderson's Deal.
本·卡尔霍恩接续第四幕《在安德森交易中吃亏的人》。
Best I can tell, the public at large just accepted what the city did.
据我所知，广大公众已经接受了这座城市的所作所为。
Anderson was gone.
安德森走了。
Maybe they grumbled that he got his pension.
也许他们抱怨他领取了养老金。
But fine, OK.
但好吧，好吧。
But it wasn't that way for Duke Stalling at all.
但对斯托林公爵来说却完全不是这样。
Just to remind you of his experience with Officer Anderson, Anderson was called to his mom's birthday party because of a noise complaint and escalated things until he ended up pepper spraying a bunch of old people, and arresting Duke and one of his uncles.
只是为了提醒您他与安德森警官的经历，安德森因噪音投诉而被叫去参加他妈妈的生日聚会，并将事情升级，直到他最终向一群老人喷胡椒水，并逮捕了杜克和他的一个叔叔。
They filed complaints with the police department and tried to raise the alarm about Anderson, but nothing happened.
他们向警察局投诉，并试图对安德森发出警报，但没有任何反应。
No one ever reached out to hear their side of the story.
没有人伸出援手来听听他们的故事。
Years later, when the Mathises came forward about the stuff in Anderson's house, Duke thought, finally, everyone's going to see.
多年后，当马西斯夫妇站出来谈论安德森家里的事情时，杜克认为，终于，每个人都会看到了。
But the way the city handled it, it didn't go that way because the city's report didn't talk about the pattern Anderson had with Black people.
但该市处理此事的方式却并非如此，因为该市的报告没有谈论安德森与黑人的关系。
What would it have meant to you if the police chief, as part of this process, would have said, essentially, yeah, this guy was a problem?
如果警察局长在这个过程中基本上说，是的，这个人是一个问题，那对你意味着什么？
Oh, everything.
哦，一切。
Oh, my hope was that they was going to look into my case.
哦，我希望他们会调查我的案子。
Again, hope, right?
再次，希望，对吗？
Innocence, naiveness.
天真、天真。
I hope that they reach out to me, hope they look into my case.
我希望他们联系我，希望他们调查我的案子。
I hope they look into the Julius case.
我希望他们调查朱利叶斯案。
I hope they look into all these cases and something really happens.
我希望他们调查所有这些案件并且确实发生一些事情。
And then they go to the families and make amends with these families that he terrorized.
然后他们去找那些被他恐吓的家庭，向他们赔罪。
That was my hope.
这就是我的希望。
You were hoping that you were going to get a phone call.
您希望能接到电话。
Oh, yeah, most definitely.
哦，是的，绝对是。
I thought that's what an investigation is.
我以为这就是调查的意义。
You're going to look into every situation that he had an interaction with.
你要调查他接触过的每一种情况。
But the investigation they said they was going to have, that was just to get us hopeful.
但他们说要进行的调查只是让我们充满希望。
Right?
正确的？
Get the people hopeful, so they can get rid of the anger.
让人们充满希望，这样他们就能摆脱愤怒。
So our police can be on these streets without nobody want to do anything to our polices.
因此，我们的警察可以出现在这些街道上，而没有人愿意对我们的警察做任何事情。
We'll say everything we need to say to make them calm down.
我们会说出我们需要说的一切来让他们平静下来。
That's it.
就是这样。
That's really all it's all about.
这就是全部内容。
It's a weird thing about this story.
这个故事有一个奇怪的地方。
All that stuff that Chief Lewis said to me about how he was convinced that Officer Anderson had a problem with Black people and a pattern of incidents mistreating them, he's never said that publicly.
刘易斯警长对我说的所有关于他如何确信安德森警官对黑人有问题以及虐待他们的事件模式的所有内容，他从未公开说过。
Not in the report, not in comments to the press-- no city official has said anything like that.
报告中没有，对媒体的评论中也没有——没有城市官员说过类似的话。
Not until now, this story.
直到现在，这个故事。
So I was the one to break that to people like Duke Stalling.
所以我是第一个向杜克·斯托林这样的人打破这一现状的人。
So I mean, that would have made me feel a whole lot better, if he would have said what he's saying to you, behind closed doors, in public about this officer.
所以我的意思是，如果他能在闭门的公开场合向你说出他对这位警官所说的话，那会让我感觉好很多。
To hear that come from within, that you agreed and you felt the same way.
听到来自内心的声音，你同意并且你也有同样的感觉。
You know, he's had a history of hurting or affecting a certain group of people, and we fired him and got rid of him because of that reason, you know?
你知道，他有伤害或影响特定群体的历史，我们因为这个原因解雇了他并摆脱了他，你知道吗？
To let us know that we're on the same page here.
让我们知道我们在同一页面上。
I mean, that's how you build that trust with the community.
我的意思是，这就是你与社区建立信任的方式。
When it came to the way that Anderson treated his family, Duke had always felt that race was a part of it, that he'd have acted differently if they were white.
当谈到安德森对待家人的方式时，杜克一直认为种族是其中的一部分，如果他们是白人，他的行为会有所不同。
But it was a slippery part, and it was hard to prove, which happens all the time.
但这是一个棘手的部分，而且很难证明，这种情况经常发生。
A person accused of racism can say, I don't have a racist bone in my body, or I'm the least racist person.
一个被指控种族主义的人可以说，我的身体里没有种族主义的骨头，或者我是最不种族主义的人。
And then all of a sudden, the conversation is this dead end.
然后突然之间，谈话就陷入了死胡同。
Everyone's just supposed to throw up their hands and be like, guess you can't prove what's in their heart.
每个人都应该举起手来，说，我猜你无法证明他们内心的想法。
It's within everything, yes.
它存在于一切之中，是的。
I've dealt with it in the real estate and offices and stuff like that.
我在房地产和办公室之类的地方处理过这个问题。
And I know it's a racial thing, but I couldn't take it to court and win because they never specifically say anything like that.
我知道这是种族问题，但我无法将其告上法庭并获胜，因为他们从未明确说过类似的话。
Like, you really got to call somebody a [BLEEP].
就像，你真的必须称某人为[BLEEP]。
You literally got to say these type of things in order-- I can treat you like a [BLEEP], but never call you a [BLEEP].
你确实必须按顺序说出这些类型的事情 - 我可以像对待[BLEEP]一样对待你，但永远不会称你为[BLEEP]。
I can treat you like one, never call you that.
我可以像对待一个人一样对待你，但永远不会那样称呼你。
You can't say that I'm racist.
你不能说我是种族主义者。
But you knew it was-- you knew it was-- you knew.
但你知道它是——你知道它是——你知道。
It's like a trap door.
这就像一个活板门。
And 10 years earlier, Duke had watched Anderson slip through it.
十年前，杜克曾眼睁睁地看着安德森从其中滑过。
And when the city released their report, it was like he had to watch Anderson slip through it for a second time.
当市政府发布他们的报告时，他似乎不得不再次看着安德森滑过它。
I went back and I told Chief Lewis what Duke and others said to me, that if the city and Lewis saw a racial pattern of bad conduct and mistreatment by Officer Anderson, the city should have said it.
我回去后告诉刘易斯警长杜克和其他人对我说的话，如果市政府和刘易斯看到安德森警官的不良行为和虐待行为的种族模式，市政府就应该这么说。
Honestly, and I see where they're coming from.
老实说，我知道他们来自哪里。
I get it.
我得到它。
But when it came time for us to do the investigation, I felt I put everything in there to sustain this case and to get him to end his employment here.
但当我们进行调查时，我觉得我已经投入了一切来维持这个案件并让他结束在这里的工作。
To get the outcome that you felt was important for the city?
为了获得您认为对城市重要的结果？
And I can prove it today.
今天我可以证明这一点。
I can look back and go, see?
我可以回头再走，明白吗？
We did it right.
我们做对了。
But then again, somebody should say, it's not complete until the chief put the "racist" in there.
但话又说回来，有人应该说，除非酋长把“种族主义者”放进去，否则这一切都是不完整的。
You know, I guess we're going to live today to disagree.
你知道，我想我们今天会一直存在分歧。
I didn't feel that was necessary.
我觉得没有必要。
What I felt was necessary was in that report, and it worked for what I would call a correct outcome.
我认为必要的内容都包含在该报告中，并且它对我所说的正确结果有效。
But I guess the question that I'm asking is just, why not a public statement?
但我想我要问的问题只是，为什么不发表公开声明？
They're sharing your take of, you know, there's a pattern of problems here.
他们正在分享您的看法，您知道，这里存在一定的问题模式。
Why not a public statement saying, you guys are right, there was something wrong here?
为什么不发表公开声明说，你们是对的，这里出了问题？
Well I think, we did make a public statement of that.
嗯，我认为，我们确实对此发表了公开声明。
We went, you can't be an employee here.
我们去了，你不能在这里当员工。
And matter of fact, you shouldn't be a police officer.
事实上，你不应该成为一名警察。
We went around and around.
我们绕了一圈又一圈。
Lewis was adamant.
刘易斯态度坚决。
They made the right choice to get Anderson out.
他们做出了正确的选择，让安德森离开。
The people who were the most affected, directly affected by the city's decision never to publicly comment on how Anderson treated Black people, were the people who stuck their necks out and set this all in motion, Rob and Reyna Mathis.
受影响最严重的人，直接受到该市决定从不公开评论安德森对待黑人的方式的影响，是那些不遗余力推动这一切的人，罗布和雷娜·马西斯。
The Mathises were already being harassed.
马西斯夫妇已经受到骚扰。
I laid out the details of that last time-- threats to their children, people in town shouting slurs at them, people stalking their house.
我列出了上次的细节——威胁他们的孩子，镇上的人们对他们大喊大叫，人们跟踪他们的房子。
But when the city put out its report, it made all that worse because of something surprising it said about them.
但当该市发布报告时，由于报告中提到了一些令人惊讶的内容，情况变得更糟。
It was something they didn't even know.
这是他们甚至不知道的事情。
And it was something that changed the way people in Muskegon saw them.
这改变了马斯基根人们对他们的看法。
Towards the end of the report, the Muskegon Police Department revealed that, that day when Rob and Reyna toured Officer Anderson's house, that was not actually the first time they crossed paths with him.
在报告接近尾声时，马斯基根警察局透露，那天罗布和雷娜参观安德森警官的家时，实际上并不是他们第一次与他相遇。
In fact, over the years, they'd interacted with him a few times.
事实上，这些年来，他们和他交往过几次。
Rob and Reyna found this out the day the city's report came out.
罗布和雷纳在市政府报告发布的当天就发现了这一点。
I believe we was in the car riding somewhere and somebody sent us the report or something like that.
我相信我们在车里行驶在某个地方，有人给我们发送了报告或类似的东西。
We went on a website or something and read it.
我们上了一个网站或其他东西并阅读了它。
And I was like, wow.
我当时想，哇。
It was one of these incidents that caught everyone's attention, especially the Mathises.
其中一件事件引起了所有人的注意，尤其是马西斯夫妇。
It was from 2008.
那是从2008年开始的。
Rob and Reyna totally remembered this thing, but they'd never put it together that it was Officer Anderson.
罗布和雷娜完全记得这件事，但他们从来没有把这件事放在一起认为是安德森警官。
In fact, both they and Anderson told investigators they didn't know each other.
事实上，他们和安德森都告诉调查人员他们彼此不认识。
For the Mathises, this particular incident had just kind of mushed in with other interactions they'd had with police.
对于马西斯夫妇来说，这一特殊事件与他们与警方的其他互动混杂在一起。
They didn't remember a particular officer.
他们不记得具体的军官。
It was just some random cop who treated them badly.
只是一些随机的警察粗暴地对待了他们。
I want to tell you the whole story because of the outlandish coincidence of this.
我想告诉你整个故事，因为这是一个奇怪的巧合。
If you remember, the reason Rob felt compelled to go public about the flags and the KKK application was because he imagined someday, somewhere, Officer Anderson would pull over a couple and things would get ugly.
如果你还记得的话，罗布之所以觉得有必要公开这些旗帜和三K党的申请，是因为他想象有一天，在某个地方，安德森警官会拦下几条，事情就会变得丑陋。
It turned out Rob and Reyna had been that couple a decade earlier.
事实证明，罗布和雷纳就是十年前的那对夫妇。
It was the 4th of July in 2008.
那是2008年的7月4日。
Rob and Reyna had grabbed a bite at Burger King, and they were on their way home.
罗布和雷娜在汉堡王吃了一口，然后就在回家的路上了。
And Rob had to pee really bad, so he was going a little fast.
罗布尿得非常厉害，所以他尿得有点快。
But not that fast, even according to Officer Anderson, who says in his police report that he clocked them going between 31 and 38 in a 25, so like 10-ish over.
但即使根据安德森警官的说法，也没有那么快，他在警方报告中说，他在 25 场比赛中将他们的得分在 31 到 38 之间，所以大约超过了 10 分。
Anderson pulled them over pretty much right at their house.
安德森几乎就在他们家把他们拦了下来。
So he flicked the lights.
于是他打开了灯。
And I pull up right at my side door.
我把车停在侧门处。
We were literally right in front of our house.
我们实际上就在我们家门前。
Literally, parked right in front of our house.
毫不夸张地说，就停在我们家门前。
He's like, what's your speed?
他问，你的速度是多少？
I say, sir, I got to go to the bathroom.
我说，先生，我要去趟洗手间。
I just got to go to the bathroom so bad.
我只能去趟洗手间，太糟糕了。
He was, like, this is just going to take a second.
他说，这只需要一秒钟。
So my wife was, like, he just got to go to the bathroom.
所以我的妻子就像，他只是要去洗手间。
So he's, like, shut up, ma'am.
所以他就像，闭嘴，女士。
Blah, blah, blah.
巴拉，巴拉，巴拉。
Rob says he and Reyna were, like, "Shut up?" Officer Anderson went back to the car.
罗布说他和雷娜说，“闭嘴？”安德森警官回到车上。
Rob was in so much discomfort, he was afraid he was going to wet himself.
罗布感到非常不舒服，他担心自己会尿湿。
After a few minutes, he got out, and he tried to signal to Officer Anderson to plead his case.
几分钟后，他下了车，并试图示意安德森警官为他的案子辩护。
I've had run-ins with different officers on occasion, and some of them be a little hard-ass sometimes.
我有时会与不同的警官发生冲突，其中有些人有时会有点强硬。
But I was being respectful.
但我很尊重。
And I was, like, Officer, you can-- look, I'm pulling my shirt up.
我当时就想，警官，你可以——看，我正在把衬衫拉起来。
Like, you can search me.
比如，你可以搜我。
Here's my wallet.
这是我的钱包。
I'm pulling my pockets inside out.
我正在把口袋里翻出来。
I'm raising my pants leg up, so he can see I ain't got no weapons.
我把裤腿抬起来，这样他就可以看到我没有武器。
I'm, like, you can call the dogs and search my car for drugs.
我想，你可以叫狗来搜查我的车里是否有毒品。
I just gotta use the bathroom.
我只是想用一下浴室。
I'm being totally honest with the guy, you know?
我对这个人非常诚实，你知道吗？
And he's just, get in the car.
他只是，上车。
Get your ass in the car.
把你的屁股放进车里。
He cussing at us and stuff.
他咒骂我们之类的。
So I'm like, man, this guy, man.
所以我想，伙计，这个人，伙计。
I don't know what his problem is.
我不知道他的问题是什么。
So Rob gets back in.
于是罗布又回来了。
He's, like, OK, gotta hold it.
他就像，好吧，必须坚持下去。
He says 10 minutes go by, then 20.
他说10分钟过去了，然后是20分钟。
Rob and Reyna's kids see the police lights, and so they come out to see what's happening.
罗布和雷娜的孩子们看到了警灯，所以他们出来看看发生了什么事。
So now they're standing on the lawn.
现在他们站在草坪上。
After a bit, neighbors come out, too.
过了一会儿，邻居们也出来了。
We sat there for like a half an hour.
我们在那里坐了大约半个小时。
It don't take that long to run nobody's name.
不需要花那么长时间来运行任何人的名字。
Sat there and sat there and sat there and sat there.
坐在那里，坐在那里，坐在那里，坐在那里。
And steady, every time I go to open door to get out, get back in the car.
而且很稳定，每次我去开门下车，就回到车里。
Just a second.
稍等一下。
I'll be there in a second.
我马上就到。
Stay in the car.
留在车里。
Stay in the car.
留在车里。
Rob, he was so desperate at this point, he gets out of the car and he's, like--
罗布，此时他非常绝望，他下了车，然后他，就像——
Look, man.
瞧，伙计。
I gotta go to the bathroom.
我得去趟洗手间。
I'm not going to sit here, a grown man, and urinate on myself because you won't let me go to the bathroom.
我不会坐在这里，一个成年人，在自己身上小便，因为你不让我去洗手间。
I'm like, just search me.
我想，只要搜查我就可以了。
Search my car, whatever you got to do.
搜查我的车，无论你做什么。
I just gotta go to the bathroom.
我只是要去趟洗手间。
I'm not going to use the bathroom on myself.
我不会自己使用浴室。
What did he say when you said that?
当你这么说的时候他说什么了？
Or how did he react?
或者说他有什么反应？
He was, like, get your-- didn't I say get your motherfucking ass back in the car?
他就像，让你——我不是说过让你他妈的屁股回到车里吗？
Get in the car.
上车吧。
At this point, Reyna got out of the car to talk to their kids.
这时，雷纳下车和孩子们说话。
Officer Anderson turned his attention to her.
安德森警官将注意力转向她。
When he did, he kind of gave up on Rob.
当他这样做时，他有点放弃了罗布。
And Rob was able to run inside to pee.
罗布能够跑进去撒尿。
He told me to get my ass back in the car.
他叫我赶紧回到车里。
And I was standing at the door.
而我就站在门口。
I wasn't all the way out of the car.
我并没有完全下车。
I was, like-- the door was open, and I was standing there telling my kids that everything was going to be OK, or whatever.
我就像——门开着，我站在那里告诉我的孩子们，一切都会好起来的，或者其他什么。
He was telling me to get my ass back in the car, and I'm telling him I'm talking to my kids.
他让我滚回车里，我告诉他我正在和我的孩子们说话。
They're scared, or whatever.
他们害怕，或者其他什么。
And I don't remember--
我不记得了——
Reyna said she was kind of pinned between the car and Anderson.
雷娜说她被夹在汽车和安德森之间。
And that's when he tried to put me in the headlock.
就在那时他试图把我的头锁住。
And all I did was try to-- you know, like-- I didn't want him to, like-- however he did it, he did like this.
我所做的只是尝试 - 你知道，就像 - 我不想让他这样做，就像 - 不管他这么做，他确实喜欢这样。
And it busted my nose, or whatever, so my nose was bleeding.
它打伤了我的鼻子，或者其他什么，所以我的鼻子流血了。
But when I went back like this to protect myself, that's when he got hit.
可当我就这样回去保护自己的时候，他就被击中了。
Reyna says she lifted up her arms to block Anderson, and her arm hit him.
雷娜说，她举起手臂想要阻止安德森，但她的手臂击中了他。
Rob, in the middle of this, comes back out of the house to find Reyna with a bloody face and Officer Anderson wrestling her to the ground.
正当这一切发生时，罗布从屋里回来，发现雷娜满脸是血，安德森警官将她摔倒在地。
He starts to walk up, like, what's happening?
他开始走上前去，问道，发生了什么事？
So when I was coming outside the gate, he said, stay there, stay there.
所以当我走出大门时，他说，呆在那里，呆在那里。
So he put his hand on, like he was going to pull his gun out.
于是他把手伸了上去，就像要拔出枪一样。
So I'm standing.
所以我站着。
I'm like, Reyna, just be cool, be cool, be cool.
我想，雷娜，要冷静，要冷静，要冷静。
And he grabbed her--
然后他抓住了她——
What were they saying?
他们在说什么？
What were they saying when you came out of the house?
当你从房子里出来时，他们在说什么？
He was, like, you're resisting arrest.
他说，你正在拒捕。
You're resisting arrest.
你正在拒捕。
She's like, my husband just had to go to the bathroom.
她说，我丈夫只是要去趟洗手间。
And he said, I told you to stay in the car.
他说，我告诉过你留在车里。
I told you stay in the car.
我告诉过你留在车里。
So he grabbed her, and he smashed her head down on the car.
于是他抓住了她，把她的头撞到了车上。
So he's wrestling around with her.
所以他才和她扭打在一起。
She's trying to get away from him.
她正试图逃离他。
And you're having to stand there on the other side of the fence with your kids and watch this whole thing happen.
你必须和你的孩子站在栅栏的另一边，看着这整个事情发生。
Watch the whole thing.
观看整个事情。
I was worried that he's going to shoot her in front of me and the kids.
我担心他会当着我和孩子们的面开枪射杀她。
Once Anderson had Reyna on the ground, he put handcuffs on both of her wrists, saying--
安德森把雷娜按倒在地后，给她戴上了手铐，说道——
I told you to get your ass down.
我告诉过你把你的屁股放下来。
Now you're going to fucking jail.
现在你他妈的就要进监狱了。
Stuff like that.
诸如此类的事情。
And my kids were screaming at this point, so.
我的孩子们此时正在尖叫，所以。
Were you surprised that that happened all of a sudden?
你对突然发生的事情感到惊讶吗？
No. The way-- the aggression he had, I knew something was going to happen.
不。从他的攻击性来看，我知道有些事情将会发生。
So I wasn't surprised that it did happen.
所以我对这件事的发生并不感到惊讶。
I was more mad because it happened in front of my kids, and they were terrified.
我更生气，因为这发生在我的孩子们面前，他们很害怕。
Because they were younger then.
因为那时他们还年轻。
Just to reiterate, the issue here, to start, was driving about 35 in a 25.
重申一下，首先，这里的问题是在 25 英里内驾驶大约 35 英里。
Anderson's report from that night describes more or less the same course of events.
安德森那天晚上的报告或多或少描述了相同的事件过程。
The key difference is that Officer Anderson says Reyna didn't hit him inadvertently.
关键的区别在于安德森警官说雷纳并不是无意中撞到了他。
He says she swung around and slapped him.
他说她转过身来打了他一巴掌。
Reyna was charged with resisting and obstructing a police officer, a charge that carries potential prison time.
雷纳被指控抵抗和妨碍警察，这项指控可能会导致入狱。
When my husband found out I was facing five years in prison, he said, no. He said, we're fighting this-- because they kept trying to make me take a deal.
当我丈夫发现我面临五年监禁时，他说不。他说，我们正在对此进行斗争——因为他们一直试图让我达成协议。
He said, no, we're going to get a lawyer.
他说，不行，我们要请律师。
We're going to fight this.
我们要对抗这个。
He said, I want the dashboard cam as evidence, he said, because they'll see exactly what-- everybody will see what happened.
他说，我想要仪表板摄像头作为证据，因为他们会确切地看到发生了什么——每个人都会看到发生了什么。
The Mathises say their lawyer requested the dashcam footage from the stop.
马西斯夫妇说，他们的律师要求警察局提供行车记录仪的录像。
According to the Mathises, they were told the video could not be located.
据马西斯夫妇称，他们被告知无法找到该视频。
And then, suddenly, Reyna was offered a new, much-reduced plea deal.
然后，雷纳突然获得了一份新的、大幅减少的认罪协议。
She decided she just wanted to be done with all this, and she took it.
她决定她只想结束这一切，于是她接受了。
The night of the traffic stop, back in 2008, Rob and Reyna did not think it was about race.
早在 2008 年，交通堵塞的那天晚上，罗布和雷纳并不认为这与种族有关。
I'm, like, A, he's just being a dick or he's had a hard night.
我觉得，A，他只是在胡闹，或者他度过了一个艰难的夜晚。
Maybe the previous person maybe pulled over or something gave him a hard time, and he's just taking it out on everybody else, you know?
也许前一个人可能把车停在路边，或者有什么事情给他带来了困难，而他只是把气发泄到其他人身上，你知道吗？
He was on a power trip, you know?
他正在权力旅行，你知道吗？
I have a badge.
我有徽章。
I'm in control.
我一切尽在掌控。
That's what I thought.
我就是这么想的。
I didn't think anything about him being racist.
我不认为他有任何种族歧视。
I just thought, yeah, he was a cop on a power trip.
我只是想，是的，他是一名正在执行权力任务的警察。
I mean, I've seen Mexican cops do the same thing to Mexicans, and Black cops do the same thing to Blacks.
我的意思是，我见过墨西哥警察对墨西哥人做同样的事情，黑人警察对黑人做同样的事情。
It's just some of them have their power trips.
只是他们中的一些人有权力旅行。
So I just thought he was on a power trip.
所以我只是以为他正在进行权力之旅。
That was how they saw it when it happened.
当事情发生时，他们就是这样看待的。
But now, after seeing those things in Anderson's home a decade later, they both looked at it differently.
但现在，十年后在安德森家里看到这些东西后，他们的看法都不同了。
I don't think he would have did that with a white couple in the car.
我认为他不会对车里有一对白人夫妇这样做。
He would've been, like, OK, go use the bathroom, or I'm just going to let you off-- because he was just disrespectful.
他会说，好吧，去一下洗手间吧，不然我就放你走——因为他太不尊重了。
In hindsight, looking at it, everything he did was a racist act.
事后看来，他所做的一切都是种族主义行为。
From when he first looked at us, he didn't have good intentions.
从他第一眼看到我们的时候起，他就没有什么好意。
The man is racist.
该男子是种族主义者。
And I know that now.
我现在知道了。
But had I known it back then, probably been a lot different.
但如果我当时就知道的话，情况可能会大不一样。
So then I was pissed.
于是我就生气了。
I kind of-- kind of wish I would have probably assaulted him before he assaulted me.
我有点——有点希望我能在他袭击我之前袭击他。
And that's the truth.
这就是事实。
If the city, specifically Chief Lewis, would have said publicly some version of what he actually thought about Officer Anderson, that he had a pattern of being overly aggressive, escalating situations, especially with people who weren't white, then-- I think-- when people found out about this traffic stop, they might have seen it in that light.
如果这座城市，特别是刘易斯警长，公开表达了他对安德森警官的真实看法，即他有一种过于咄咄逼人、使局势升级的模式，尤其是对非白人，那么——我想——当人们发现这个交通堵塞时，他们可能会从这个角度看待它。
But without that context, Anderson's version is the one people believed.
但如果没有这种背景，人们就会相信安德森的版本。
It's Anderson's account in that 421-page report the city issued.
这是安德森在市政府发布的 421 页报告中的叙述。
He stopped Rob and Reyna.
他阻止了罗布和雷娜。
Reyna got out of hand.
雷纳失控了。
She assaulted him.
她袭击了他。
Because of that, this revelation that they'd had this run-in with Officer Anderson years earlier, it really did change how lots of people saw the Mathises.
正因为如此，几年前他们与安德森警官发生冲突的消息确实改变了很多人对马西斯夫妇的看法。
That's when more threats came in.
就在这时，更多的威胁进来了。
Then people were saying, oh, yeah, you're out for Officer Anderson because he put your wife in jail, because of this, because of that.
然后人们说，哦，是的，你支持安德森警官，因为他把你的妻子关进了监狱，因为这个，因为那个。
Then they was like, oh, you're not just the good guy because you outed Officer Anderson for having the Confederate flag and the Klan application.
然后他们就说，哦，你不仅仅是个好人，因为你揭露了安德森警官拥有邦联旗帜和三K党申请。
It's because we were holding a grudge against a police officer.
因为我们对警察怀恨在心。
Of course, Rob and Reyna hadn't sought out Anderson's house on some vendetta.
当然，罗布和雷娜并不是因为什么仇杀才来到安德森家的。
The realtor sent them the listing.
房地产经纪人向他们发送了清单。
But this version of the story took hold.
但这个故事的版本却流传了下来。
That's what's still out there.
这就是仍然存在的东西。
That report that City Hall put out, it's me and my wife had a problem with him, and we went after him.
市政厅发布的报告说，是我和我妻子对他有意见，我们就追捕他。
When we were talking, I told Rob what Chief Lewis said to me, that Anderson had a pattern of behavior and a problem with Black people.
当我们谈话时，我告诉罗布刘易斯酋长对我说的话，安德森有一种行为模式，对黑人有问题。
Just like with Duke Stalling, Robert had no clue.
就像斯托林公爵一样，罗伯特也毫无头绪。
No clue Lewis felt that way.
不知道刘易斯有这种感觉。
No clue Lewis saw the same things in Anderson that he did.
没有任何线索刘易斯在安德森身上看到了和他一样的东西。
And the fact the city left that out, it made Rob mad.
事实上，这座城市忽略了这一点，这让罗布很生气。
Why wouldn't he say that in the report in the beginning?
为什么他一开始不在报告中这么说呢？
It would have changed everything.
它会改变一切。
Everything.
一切。
Me and my wife wouldn't be looked at as some liars, that we went after him.
我和我的妻子不会被视为骗子，因为我们去追捕他。
You sitting up here creating this falseness.
你坐在这里制造这种虚假。
And it's just wrong.
这是错误的。
Tell the truth.
说实话。
Now the police chief wants to tell the truth, but the matter is done.
现在警察局长想要说出真相，但事情已经过去了。
But truthfully, the information that you just got from Chief Lewis, if that would have been put in the report, then they would have said, Mathises, you all did a great job.
但说实话，你刚刚从刘易斯酋长那里得到的信息，如果将其纳入报告中，那么他们会说，马西斯，你们都做得很好。
Thank you.
谢谢。
The way the Mathises see it, even if the chief removed Anderson for betraying the public's trust, even if the reason for the firing wasn't the way he treated Black people, the city could have removed Anderson without also giving him a clean bill of health.
在马西斯夫妇看来，即使酋长因背叛公众信任而将安德森免职，即使解雇的原因不是他对待黑人的方式，市政府也可以在不给他一份干净的健康证明的情况下将安德森免职。
They could have said, we've looked into this.
他们本可以说，我们已经调查过此事。
We're troubled by the way he treats people.
我们对他待人的方式感到不安。
It was not OK.
不行。
We don't want officers acting the way that he did.
我们不希望警察像他那样行事。
Act 6, Was It Worth it?
第六幕，值得吗？
It's hard for Rob and Reyna to calculate the ways this changed their lives.
罗布和雷纳很难计算这对他们的生活有何改变。
The risk they took was a single act, a single moment.
他们所冒的风险只是一次行动、一次瞬间。
But the impact of it is still happening even a couple of years later.
但即使在几年后，它的影响仍然在发生。
The costs for them are still adding up.
他们的成本仍在增加。
Some of what all this has cost the Mathises are things that have ended up in no report, no investigation, official or unofficial-- the harassment, the threats, the conspiracy theory now floating around out there that Rob and Reyna were out to "get" Officer Anderson.
这一切让马西斯夫妇付出了代价，其中一些事情最终没有得到任何报告、没有调查，无论是官方的还是非官方的——骚扰、威胁，以及现在流传的阴谋论，认为罗布和雷纳是为了“抓住”安德森警官。
The last time I saw Rob, I asked him how he looks back on all of it, given the results.
上次我见到罗布时，我问他如何看待这一切，考虑到结果。
I'm just glad that he ain't riding around on the streets, and he's not harassing no more minorities, and nobody ain't going to get killed by Officer Anderson.
我很高兴他不再在街上骑车，不再骚扰少数族裔，也没有人会被安德森警官杀死。
And it'd be a justified shooting, because he can make up what he want to, because he killed a person.
这是一次合理的枪击事件，因为他可以弥补他想要的，因为他杀了一个人。
Oh, man.
哦，伙计。
I feel like I, me and my wife, saved lives by doing what we did.
我觉得我、我和我的妻子通过我们所做的事情拯救了生命。
Reyna didn't disagree.
雷娜没有反对。
She was glad Anderson lost his job-- really, pretty fast.
她很高兴安德森失去了工作——真的，非常快。
That doesn't always happen.
这种情况并不总是发生。
But the practical costs, she couldn't help but look at those, too.
但实际成本，她也忍不住要看看。
And then, with all the backlash, all the negative stuff, it just made me second guess what we did.
然后，面对所有的强烈反对和所有负面的事情，这让我再次猜测我们做了什么。
I felt like I did something wrong.
我感觉我做错了什么。
Maybe we shouldn't have did it.
也许我们不应该这样做。
Maybe we should have just kept our mouth shut.
也许我们应该闭嘴。
But at the end of the day, who is to say that he wouldn't still be working and another young, Black man gets killed?
但最终，谁能说他不会继续工作而另一个年轻的黑人被杀呢？
Or there's another Reyna, who goes to prison for five years because he says that she assaulted him and-- you know.
或者还有另一个雷纳，他被判入狱五年，因为他说她袭击了他，而且——你知道。
I'm so conflicted because, one minute, I'm like, we did do the right thing.
我很矛盾，因为有一分钟，我想，我们确实做了正确的事。
We did do the right thing.
我们确实做了正确的事。
But then when you go through everything that we've been going through, it's kinda hard.
但当你经历我们所经历的一切时，这有点困难。
Like, maybe we shouldn't have, though.
就像，也许我们不应该这样做。
Rob and Reyna did what they did out of concern for other people's safety, but they ended up sacrificing their own.
罗布和雷纳这样做是出于对他人安全的关心，但最终却牺牲了自己的安全。
They used to feel like the police were out there to protect them, to help them.
他们过去常常觉得警察是在保护他们、帮助他们。
And now, on any given day, they worry that they're not.
而现在，他们在任何一天都担心自己不是。
Here's Reyna.
这是雷娜。
I promise you, every day I leave this house when I drive to work, I pray to God that I don't get pulled over, because I'm scared.
我向你保证，每天我开车去上班时离开这个家，我都会向上帝祈祷，不要让我被拦住，因为我很害怕。
I'm legal.
我是合法的。
I have a license.
我有执照。
I have insurance.
我有保险。
And I'm scared.
我很害怕。
I make Rob drive me to work a lot.
我经常让罗布开车送我去上班。
And it's hard on him, because he has to wake up to come and get me at 5:00 in the morning, you know, and then take my daughter to school, and do this and do that.
这对他来说很难，因为他必须早上 5:00 起床来接我，你知道，然后送我女儿去学校，做这做那。
But my anxiety gets so bad, I don't want to drive, because I'm scared I'm going to get pulled over.
但我的焦虑变得如此严重，我不想开车，因为我害怕我会被拦住。
And anything can happen.
任何事情都可能发生。
And it might be somebody who knew him or--
可能是认识他的人或者——
Those worries and fears, they tell me, they aren't just when they leave the house.
他们告诉我，这些担忧和恐惧不仅仅发生在他们离开家的时候。
They've seeped in.
他们已经渗透进去了。
The last thing I'll play for you is from Reyna.
我要为你演奏的最后一首歌是雷纳的。
This was from five months after the city had terminated Anderson, when most of the people in Muskegon had stopped thinking about all this.
这是从该市处决安德森五个月后开始的，当时马斯基根的大多数人已经不再思考这一切了。
I probably get two or three hours sleep, here and there.
我可能会时不时地睡两三个小时。
Once we started getting the threats-- I had a lot of bad dreams.
一旦我们开始受到威胁——我就做了很多噩梦。
I couldn't sleep.
我无法入睡。
I would have to-- I used to put a chair right by that window, and just sit out and look out the window in the dark, just so I could see.
我不得不——我过去常常在窗户旁边放一把椅子，然后坐在外面，在黑暗中看着窗外，这样我就可以看到。
Just to keep an eye on what was going on?
只是为了关注正在发生的事情吗？
Yes.
是的。
And then we have a monitor with our security cameras, and I would lay it in my bed with me.
然后我们有一个带有安全摄像头的监视器，我会把它放在我的床上。
And I would just hold it and watch it for hours, because it shows all of our cameras, all six.
我会拿着它看几个小时，因为它显示了我们所有的摄像机，全部六个。
So I'd watch all the little screens, for hours.
所以我会连续几个小时观看所有的小屏幕。
I couldn't sleep, and that's what I would do.
我睡不着，这就是我要做的。
And how long did that last?
这种情况持续了多久？
Reyna Mathis I still do it sometimes.
雷娜·马西斯（Reyna Mathis）有时我仍然这样做。
I don't sit there no more.
我不再坐在那里了。
But I will sit here, or I will lay in my bed, and I'll hold the monitor right in my hand and just watch it.
但我会坐在这里，或者躺在床上，我会把显示器握在手里，只是看着它。
Even now?
即使是现在？
Reyna Mathis Sometimes, yeah.
雷娜·马西斯 有时，是的。
Or I sit on the stairs, right there, the fourth stair.
或者我坐在楼梯上，就在那里，第四个楼梯。
So I can see right out at night when my porch light is on.
因此，当我的门廊灯打开时，我可以在晚上看到外面的情况。
So I sit there.
所以我坐在那里。
I texted Rob the other day.
前几天我给罗布发了短信。
He told me they still get threats sometimes, and they still watch the monitors regularly.
他告诉我，他们有时仍然会受到威胁，而且他们仍然定期观看监视器。
"That's the norm now," he wrote.
“这是现在的常态，”他写道。
"We're always on guard."
“我们时刻保持警惕。”
OK, one last thing before we go today.
好的，今天走之前还有最后一件事。
Over the last six months, as Ben Calhoun has been working on this story, he and I have talked a lot.
在过去的六个月里，本·卡尔霍恩一直致力于这个故事，他和我谈了很多。
And the thing that I have wondered about, myself, about this whole thing, this whole time, was, OK, if you had a police officer with a history like Officer Anderson's, all these interactions with civilians that go badly over 21 years, why did it take this freak event-- people spotting a KKK application on a wall-- before anybody looked at his record the way the chief did and did something about him?
我自己一直想知道的一件事是，好吧，如果你有一位像安德森警官那样有过往经历的警官，在过去 21 年里，他与平民的互动一直很糟糕，为什么直到发生了这个奇怪的事件——人们在墙上发现了三K党的申请——之后才有人像警官那样查看他的记录并对他采取行动？
Couldn't they have fired him sooner?
他们就不能早点解雇他吗？
Across the country, where we see these incidents where police are mistreating people, it just seems like, if there were some system to catch problem officers, it can make a difference.
在全国各地，我们看到警察虐待人民的这些事件，似乎如果有某种系统来抓捕有问题的警察，那就可以发挥作用。
Does any police department try, in a real way, in an effective way, to do that, flag them, deal with them?
是否有任何警察部门尝试以真正的方式、有效的方式来做到这一点，标记他们，处理他们？
So I was not alone in this question, you also were kind of obsessed with this.
所以我并不是唯一一个有这个问题的人，你也对此很着迷。
Yeah.
是的。
I put this question, this exact question, to several policing experts.
我向几位警务专家提出了这个问题，这个确切的问题。
And eventually, one of them told me about these things called "early warning systems." And basically what these are are computer programs that track problematic incidents in an officer's career, and they flag an officer if there's too many of them.
最终，其中一位告诉我有关“早期预警系统”的事情。基本上，这些都是计算机程序，用于跟踪军官职业生涯中的问题事件，如果事件太多，它们就会对军官进行标记。
And one of these experts told me that, if Muskegon had one of these systems, then all of this would have been different.
其中一位专家告诉我，如果马斯基根拥有其中一种系统，那么所有这一切都会有所不同。
Oh.
哦。
Ben Calhoun Yeah, right?
本·卡尔霍恩 是啊，对吧？
But then I checked, and Muskegon does have one of these systems in place.
但后来我查了一下，马斯基根确实安装了其中一个系统。
Oh, it does?
哦，是吗？
Ben Calhoun It does.
本·卡尔霍恩 确实如此。
But it, you know, didn't lead to any action against Officer Anderson.
但你知道，这并没有导致对安德森警官采取任何行动。
OK, then what's the problem?
好吧，那有什么问题吗？
Ben Calhoun Well, I mean, it turns out that a lot of these systems are just really bad.
本·卡尔霍恩（Ben Calhoun）：嗯，我的意思是，事实证明，这些系统中有很多都非常糟糕。
And there's a few reasons for it.
这有几个原因。
One of them is that some of the systems-- this includes Muskegon's-- they rely really heavily on police officers reporting each other, which doesn't happen very often.
其中之一是，某些系统（包括马斯基根的系统）非常依赖警察相互报告，而这种情况并不经常发生。
It relies on citizen complaints, which we just know that people don't complain about police officers very often, because they worry that nothing's going to be done--
它依赖于公民的投诉，我们只知道人们不会经常抱怨警察，因为他们担心什么也做不了——
Which is true, often, right?
这通常是正确的，对吗？
Ben Calhoun Yeah, totally true.
本·卡尔霍恩 是的，完全正确。
Another reason they're bad is that, when these systems get installed, they have to be negotiated with police unions.
它们不好的另一个原因是，当这些系统安装时，必须与警察工会进行谈判。
And police unions kind of defang them.
警察工会也在某种程度上削弱了他们的力量。
And the last reason, it turns out they might be measuring just the wrong things.
最后一个原因是，他们可能测量了错误的东西。
Huh.
呵呵。
Ben Calhoun So a few years ago, a group at the University of Chicago got together and they wanted to change the way this works.
本·卡尔霍恩 几年前，芝加哥大学的一个小组聚集在一起，他们想要改变这种工作方式。
Basically, they wanted to "moneyball" the whole situation.
基本上，他们想“控制”整个局势。
They wanted to break down all the things police do on the job into numbers and statistics.
他们希望将警察在工作中所做的所有事情分解为数字和统计数据。
And then they wanted to find the stats that best predict bad behavior.
然后他们想要找到最能预测不良行为的统计数据。
So give me an example of what these moneyball stats would be.
请给我一个例子来说明这些点球成金的统计数据是什么。
OK.
好的。
So one example-- they say the old systems would measure just the sheer number of times a police officer would use force.
举个例子，他们说旧系统只能测量警察使用武力的次数。
So if they wrestle somebody to the ground, or if they tase somebody.
因此，如果他们将某人摔倒在地，或者他们攻击某人。
And what they want instead, they say it tells you just way more if you measure something they call "proportionality of force."
相反，他们想要的是，他们说，如果你衡量他们所谓的“力量的比例性”，它会告诉你更多信息。
And what that is is how much force is a police officer using, given the situation that they're in?
考虑到警察所处的情况，他们使用了多少武力？
Are they using force in a situation that wouldn't usually call for it?
他们是否在通常不需要的情况下使用武力？
So we can, like, think of Officer Anderson going into the backyard and ending up pepper spraying a bunch of unarmed people.
所以我们可以想象安德森警官走进后院，最后向一群手无寸铁的人喷胡椒水。
Over a noise complaint.
关于噪音投诉。
Ben Calhoun Over a noise complaint.
本·卡尔霍恩 (Ben Calhoun) 因噪音投诉。
Or shoving that old woman to the ground.
或者把那个老妇人推倒在地。
That's using a lot of force, where force isn't necessarily needed.
这需要使用大量的力量，而实际上并不需要力量。
Right, exactly.
对，完全正确。
So I talked to a policing expert named Ron Huberman.
所以我和一位名叫罗恩·休伯曼的警务专家进行了交谈。
He's a former Chicago Police officer, and he's one of the people trying to get people to use these new moneyball-type stats.
他是一名前芝加哥警察，也是试图让人们使用这些新的点球成金型统计数据的人之一。
He told me the University of Chicago group crunched the numbers for a lot of officers, and they were looking at whether they were using force in situations that wouldn't usually call for it.
他告诉我，芝加哥大学的小组对许多警官的数据进行了分析，他们正在研究他们是否在通常不需要的情况下使用武力。
You learn two things.
你学到了两件事。
You learn that most police are great at de-escalation, and you learn that some police are always trying to use as much force as they lawfully can, or the policy enables them to, right?
你了解到大多数警察都擅长缓和局势，并且你了解到一些警察总是试图在合法范围内使用尽可能多的武力，或者政策允许他们使用武力，对吗？
They're at the top end of that spectrum.
他们处于该范围的顶端。
Those officers are much more likely to have a major adverse event occur, right?
这些官员更有可能发生重大不良事件，对吧？
Something terrible, the nature of what you can turn on and see on TV here and there, right?
一些可怕的东西，你可以打开并在电视上看到的东西的本质，对吧？
Tell me another one.
告诉我另一件事。
What else do they track?
他们还追踪什么？
So another thing that these folks are looking at is something called "discretionary arrest." So that's essentially, an officer goes into a situation that doesn't necessarily require an arrest and makes one.
因此，这些人正在考虑的另一件事是所谓的“酌情逮捕”。所以本质上来说，一名警官进入了一种不一定需要逮捕的情况并进行了逮捕。
Say, pulling over the Mathises for going 35 in a 25, that results in an arrest.
比方说，马西斯因为 25 投 35 分而将其拦下，导致被捕。
Or--
或者——
So it's just a traffic stop.
所以这只是一个交通站点。
It's a speeding ticket, shouldn't necessarily result in an arrest.
这是一张超速罚单，不一定会导致逮捕。
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
Same with Duke Stalling, right?
斯托林公爵也一样，对吧？
It's a noise complaint, and he ends up arresting Duke and his uncle.
这是一起噪音投诉，他最终逮捕了杜克和他的叔叔。
OK.
好的。
So all that goes into an algorithm or whatever.
所以所有这些都进入算法或其他什么。
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
And one of the most interesting things that these people are finding is that patterns of problematic behavior with police officers typically go together.
这些人发现的最有趣的事情之一是，警察的问题行为模式通常是同时出现的。
So if an officer has one kind of bad behavior, then they're probably going to have others.
因此，如果一名警官有一种不良行为，那么他们可能还会有其他不良行为。
So the officer who pushes down an old lady is more likely to be an officer who's involved in, say, three shootings.
因此，推倒老太太的警官更有可能是参与过三起枪击事件的警官。
And they're also more likely to be the officer who is at a traffic stop telling a couple to shut up.
他们也更有可能是在交通站告诉一对夫妇闭嘴的警察。
We don't generally find that, oh, an officer is just rude, or an officer just uses a little too much force.
我们通常不会发现，哦，一名警官只是粗鲁，或者一名警官只是使用了太多的武力。
And if we use this story that you shared, this officer wasn't just rude, right?
如果我们用你分享的这个故事，这位官员不仅粗鲁，对吧？
That is the general accurate story.
这就是一般准确的故事。
We don't really just find, well, this officer is otherwise great, but is just aggressive and disrespectful, right?
我们并不是真的只是发现，这位警官在其他方面很出色，但只是咄咄逼人且无礼，对吗？
What the data would generally show is, that officer is going to be struggling in other parts of their job.
数据通常显示的是，该官员将在工作的其他方面陷入困境。
They're using more force than one would expect.
他们使用的武力超出了人们的预期。
They're using a higher proportionality of force.
他们使用的武力比例更高。
I just want to add, another thing that they're tracking is who police officers are doing problematic things to.
我只想补充一点，他们正在追踪的另一件事是警察对谁做了有问题的事情。
So if an officer uses more force with people of color, say, that's going to show up.
因此，如果一名警官对有色人种使用更多武力，那么这种情况就会显现出来。
So does this moneyball system work better?
那么这个点球成金系统效果更好吗？
What do we know?
我们知道什么？
Do they actually catch more problem officers and get them to change, or get rid of them?
他们是否真的抓到了更多有问题的官员并让他们改变，或者解雇他们？
I mean, what Ron Huberman says is they've only been doing this for a few years, so it's still pretty early to tell how it's working.
我的意思是，罗恩·胡伯曼（Ron Huberman）所说的是，他们这样做才几年，所以现在判断它是如何运作的还为时过早。
But he says some departments get better results than others.
但他表示，有些部门比其他部门取得了更好的结果。
And the key variable is how they follow through, like when an officer gets flagged.
关键变量是他们如何跟进，比如当一名警官被举报时。
Are a lot of departments actually using the new moneyball versions of the stats?
很多部门实际上都在使用新的点球成金版本的统计数据吗？
No, not that many.
不，没有那么多。
Ron Huberman's company, which is based on all this University of Chicago research, is called Benchmark Analytics.
罗恩·休伯曼 (Ron Huberman) 的公司以芝加哥大学的所有研究为基础，称为基准分析 (Benchmark Analytics)。
And that one is working with about 150 policing agencies-- which, I know, sounds like a lot at first.
该机构正在与大约 150 个警察机构合作——我知道，乍一听这似乎很多。
But yeah, there's like 18,000 policing agencies all over the country.
但是，是的，全国各地大约有 18,000 个警察机构。
Most of America is Muskegon, right?
美国大部分地区都是马斯基根，对吗？
That is the average or the normal police department in America, which is, there might be something in place.
那是美国的平均水平或正常的警察部门，也就是说，可能有一些东西。
But fundamentally, it does not have both the data and the sophistication to identify problematic patterns.
但从根本上来说，它不具备识别有问题模式的数据和复杂程度。
So I asked Ron Huberman, what are the big obstacles for getting these systems up and running?
所以我问 Ron Huberman，启动和运行这些系统的最大障碍是什么？
And he said some of them are super straightforward.
他说其中一些非常简单。
It's like money and tech and getting that in place.
这就像金钱和技术并将其落实到位。
But the big problem, he said, is politics.
但他说，最大的问题是政治。
Police unions, they just typically fight anything that involves scrutinizing and disciplining officers.
警察工会，他们通常只是与任何涉及审查和纪律警察的事情作斗争。
So to get these systems in, that's where the resistance is going to be.
因此，要让这些系统进入，这就是阻力所在。
Well, the program was produced today by Ben Calhoun and me, with help from Dana Chivvis and Zoe Chace.
嗯，这个节目今天是由本·卡尔霍恩和我在达纳·奇夫维斯和佐伊·查斯的帮助下制作的。
Original music for today's episode by Matt McGinley.
今天这一集的原创音乐由马特·麦金利 (Matt McGinley) 创作。
People who put together today's program include Bim Adewunmi, Elna Baker, Chris Benderev, Susan Burton, Sean Cole, Michal Comite, Aviva DeKornfeld, Damien Graf, Chana Joffe-Walt, Seth Lind, Tobin Low, Stowe Nelson, Katherine Rae Mondo, Will Peischel, Alix Spiegel, Robyn Semien, Laura Starecheski, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, Julie Whitaker, and Diane Wu.
今天节目的制作人包括 Bim Adewunmi、Elna Baker、Chris Benderev、Susan Burton、Sean Cole、Michal Comite、Aviva DeKornfeld、Damien Graf、Chana Joffe-Walt、Seth Lind、Tobin Low、Stowe Nelson、Katherine Rae Mondo、Will Peischel、Alix Spiegel、Robyn Semien、Laura Starecheski、Christopher Swetala、Matt蒂尔尼、朱莉·惠特克和黛安·吴。
Our managing editor is Sarah Abdurrahman.
我们的总编辑是萨拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sarah Abdurrahman)。
Our senior editor is David Kestenbaum.
我们的高级编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。
Our executive editor is Emanuele Berry.
我们的执行编辑是 Emanuele Berry。
Special thanks today to Eric Hood, Pastor Duane Bennett, Mayor Stephen Gowron, Destinee Keener-Sargent, Jenn White, Alex Kotlowitz, Dustin Dwyer, Paul Butler, Sharon Fairley, Craig Futterman, Tracey Meares, Timothy Maat, and the Muskegon police officers who spoke to us on background for this story.
今天特别感谢埃里克·胡德、杜安·贝内特牧师、斯蒂芬·高隆市长、德斯汀·基纳-萨金特、詹·怀特、亚历克斯·科特洛维茨、达斯汀·德怀尔、保罗·巴特勒、莎朗·费尔利、克雷格·富特曼、特雷西·梅雷斯、蒂莫西·马特以及马斯基根警察，他们向我们介绍了这个故事的背景。
Our website, ThisAmericanLife.org, where you can stream our archive of over 750 episodes.
我们的网站 ThisAmericanLife.org，您可以在其中播放我们的 750 多集档案。
And what's it going to cost you?
你会付出什么代价？
Nothing.
没有什么。
It's absolutely free.
它是完全免费的。
Also, there's videos, there's lists of recommended shows to listen to.
此外，还有视频、推荐节目列表可供收听。
Tons of other stuff there.
那里还有很多其他东西。
Again, ThisAmericanLife.org.
再次，ThisAmericanLife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
We were playing a pickup game, basketball, earlier this week.
本周早些时候，我们正在玩篮球比赛。
And he tripped me.
他绊倒了我。
Everybody saw it, but he would not admit it.
每个人都看到了，但他不承认。
I don't remember ever throwing down a grandmother.
我不记得曾经摔倒过祖母。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。