758: Talking While Black - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #758 | February 14, 2025 758: Talking While Black Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 758 集 | 2025 年 2 月 14 日 758：黑人谈话 注意：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Emanuele Berry From WBEZ Chicago, It's This American Life.
序言：序言 来自 WBEZ 芝加哥的 Emanuele Berry，这就是美国生活。
I'm Emanuele Berry in for Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯的伊曼纽尔·贝里。
So today's show starts with an email that was sent in the summer of 2020, from a man named Dr. James Whitfield.
今天的节目以 2020 年夏天发送的一封电子邮件开始，发件人是詹姆斯·惠特菲尔德 (James Whitfield) 博士。
And if you remember that summer, everyone was sending out emails and tweets about race and racism in America, statements of unity from corporations.
如果你还记得那个夏天，每个人都在发送有关美国种族和种族主义的电子邮件和推文，以及企业的团结声明。
One shoe brand tweeted, "We are not asking you to buy our shoes.
一个鞋履品牌在推特上写道：“我们并不是要求你买我们的鞋。
We are asking you to walk in someone else's."
我们要求你走进别人的家。”
Remember when everyone on Instagram posted black squares for a day to show solidarity with the Black community?
还记得 Instagram 上的每个人一天都贴出黑色方块来表达对黑人社区的声援吗？
I'd started to roll my eyes at all the MLK and Baldwin quotes.
我开始对马丁·路德·金和鲍德温的所有言论翻白眼。
The murder of George Floyd had forced the country into another racial awakening.
乔治·弗洛伊德的谋杀迫使这个国家陷入另一场种族觉醒。
In a school district outside Dallas, Texas, Dr. James Whitfield had just been promoted to high school principal, the school's first Black principal.
在德克萨斯州达拉斯郊外的一个学区，詹姆斯·惠特菲尔德博士刚刚晋升为高中校长，这是该校第一位黑人校长。
And he was watching everyone send out these emails, not just corporate brands, but also his peers, other educators and administrators.
他看着每个人都发送这些电子邮件，不仅仅是企业品牌，还有他的同事、其他教育工作者和管理人员。
I had been up pretty much all night, could not sleep.
我几乎整夜没睡，睡不着。
And I woke up at 4:30 in the morning.
我早上4点30分就醒了。
And I said, I have to craft something.
我说，我必须制作一些东西。
His email started by talking about the killings of George Floyd, Ahmaud Arbery, and Breonna Taylor, and how these events had brought forth the familiar enemy of racism in America.
他的电子邮件首先谈论了乔治·弗洛伊德、艾哈迈德·阿伯里和布伦娜·泰勒被杀的事件，以及这些事件如何在美国带来了熟悉的种族主义敌人。
Quote, "For so long these atrocities have occurred, and we've simply moved on with our daily lives.
引用：“这些暴行已经发生了很长时间，而我们只是继续过着我们的日常生活。
Now it appears as though we are collectively using our voice to denounce systemic racism and the inequities that people of color face on a daily basis in our country."
现在看来，我们正在集体用我们的声音来谴责系统性种族主义和有色人种在我们国家每天面临的不平等。”
He goes on to write from a personal perspective of a Black man who grew up in Texas.
他继续从一个在德克萨斯州长大的黑人的个人角度进行写作。
He writes, I will be 42 years old next month.
他写道，下个月我就42岁了。
And never in my life have I experienced this level of support when it comes to issues of race.
在涉及种族问题时，我一生中从未经历过如此程度的支持。
I cannot begin to tell you how encouraging it has been to have so many of my white brothers and sisters buck the status quo by calling, texting, unashamedly saying that Black Lives do indeed matter.
我无法告诉你，我的这么多白人兄弟姐妹通过打电话、发短信、无耻地说“黑人的生命确实重要”来反抗现状，这是多么令人鼓舞。
He continued--
他继续说——
I'm here with you to do whatever we need to do to disrupt systemic racism and eradicate it.
我和你们一起做我们需要做的一切，以瓦解并根除系统性种族主义。
Whitfield ends his email the way he ends many of his emails and messages, by telling people he loves them dearly, which is kind of who he is, approachable, warm, a beloved figure, a cardigan-wearing dad.
惠特菲尔德以他结束许多电子邮件和信息的方式结束了他的电子邮件，告诉人们他深深地爱着他们，这就是他的身份，平易近人，温暖，一个受人爱戴的人物，一个穿着羊毛衫的父亲。
People appreciated the email.
人们对这封电子邮件表示赞赏。
Parents, teachers, and students wrote to say thank you.
家长、老师、学生写信表示感谢。
Some said they were ready to learn more.
一些人表示他们准备了解更多信息。
One parent mentioned how refreshing it was to see a school leader send out this kind of letter.
一位家长提到，看到学校领导发出这样的信是多么令人耳目一新。
A year passed, Whitfield's first year as principal.
一年过去了，这是惠特菲尔德担任校长的第一年。
And it's a tough one because, you know, the pandemic.
这是一项艰难的任务，因为你知道，大流行病。
But he made it through.
但他挺过来了。
And then he arrived at the summer of 2021.
然后他到了2021年夏天。
It is a very different landscape from the summer of 2020.
这是与2020年夏天截然不同的景象。
In fact, the script has flipped.
事实上，剧本已经翻转了。
Public conversations have moved from let's all try and understand and talk about systemic racism to let's never mention systemic racism.
公共对话已经从让我们都尝试理解并谈论系统性种族主义转变为让我们永远不要提及系统性种族主义。
This is especially true in Texas, where Dr. Whitfield is.
在惠特菲尔德博士所在的德克萨斯州尤其如此。
In Texas, the conversation is suddenly all about banning critical race theory.
在德克萨斯州，谈话突然变成了禁止批判种族理论。
Critical Race Theory, CRT, you've probably heard about it.
批判种族理论，CRT，你可能听说过。
It's a way to chart how racism is ingrained in the American legal system and other institutions.
这是一种描绘种族主义如何在美国法律体系和其他机构中根深蒂固的方式。
But at this moment, CRT has become kind of a boogeyman, a quick shorthand to shut down anything acknowledging racism or even Blackness.
但此时此刻，CRT 已经成为一种妖怪，一种快速快捷的方式来关闭任何承认种族主义甚至黑人的事物。
Texas passed a law in 2021 banning CRT in schools.
德克萨斯州于 2021 年通过了一项法律，禁止在学校使用 CRT。
And during the school year, Dr. Whitfield heard that some people were grumbling about him on social media, saying he was a race warrior.
在学年期间，惠特菲尔德博士听到有人在社交媒体上抱怨他，说他是种族战士。
The online grumblings became public at a school board meeting in July, when a resident points to Whitfield's email, his email where he basically says it seems like we're ready to talk about race as a country.
网上的抱怨在七月的一次学校董事会会议上公开，当时一名居民指着惠特菲尔德的电子邮件，他在电子邮件中基本上说我们似乎已经准备好谈论作为一个国家的种族问题了。
He points to that email as proof that he is indoctrinating students with critical race theory.
他指出这封电子邮件证明他正在向学生灌输批判性的种族理论。
Tonight I would like to express my concerns, not only of myself, but of many in our community, about the implementation of critical race theory in our district, specifically the views and goals of the principal of Colleyville Heritage High School, James Whitfield.
今晚，我想表达我对批判种族理论在我们学区的实施的担忧，不仅是我自己，也是我们社区中的许多人，特别是科利维尔传统高中校长詹姆斯·惠特菲尔德的观点和目标。
I was first made aware of Mr Whitfield's extreme views on race when a concerned friend of mine shared with me a letter he sent to parents and students in the summer of 2020.
当我的一位关心此事的朋友与我分享了他在 2020 年夏天写给家长和学生的一封信时，我第一次意识到惠特菲尔德先生对种族的极端观点。
To be clear, Dr. Whitfield is not teaching CRT.
需要明确的是，Whitfield 博士并不教授 CRT。
He didn't propose educational reforms in his email.
他在电子邮件中没有提出教育改革。
He wasn't reshaping the curriculum.
他并没有重塑课程。
He did support an existing program at the school that tried to get kids into college who wouldn't traditionally go.
他确实支持学校现有的一项计划，该计划试图让传统上不会上大学的孩子进入大学。
He got flak for that.
他因此受到了严厉批评。
But the program predated him.
但该计划早于他。
People complained about an approving mention of the Southern Poverty Law Center, but also that he quoted Gil Scott-Heron in an email saying, "The revolution will not be televised." And, of course, that email from 2020 where, like everyone else in 2020, he denounces systemic racism.
人们抱怨他对南方贫困法律中心的赞许提及，但也抱怨他在一封电子邮件中引用了吉尔·斯科特·赫伦的话：“革命不会被电视转播。”当然，还有那封 2020 年的电子邮件，就像 2020 年的其他人一样，他谴责了系统性种族主义。
Mr. [INAUDIBLE], Mr. Clark.
[听不清] 先生，克拉克先生。
Mr. Clark Yes.
克拉克先生 是的。
We really prefer that you don't criticize a particular employee of the district.
我们真的希望您不要批评该学区的特定员工。
OK.
好的。
Board Member 1 If you have any issues, we--
董事会成员 1 如果您有任何问题，我们——
How about you fire that clown?
你解雇那个小丑怎么样？
How's that--
怎么样——
How about you fire that-- Woman 1 Hey, keep it down!
你开火怎么样—— 女人 1 嘿，小声点！
Sir.
先生。
Emanuele Berry At the time, it seemed absurd that this would actually happen, that Dr. Whitfield would be fired.
当时，埃马努埃莱·贝里（Emanuele Berry）认为这种事真的会发生，惠特菲尔德博士会被解雇，这似乎很荒谬。
A handful of people at a board meeting demanding a respected and newly hired principal be fired for promoting an academic theory he wasn't promoting, that seemed hard to imagine.
在一次董事会会议上，少数人要求解雇一位受人尊敬的新聘校长，因为他宣扬了他并不宣扬的学术理论，这似乎很难想象。
But over the next few months, that is what happened.
但在接下来的几个月里，事情就是这样发生的。
In August, the board placed Dr. Whitfield on paid administrative leave but didn't give a reason why.
8 月，董事会让 Whitfield 博士休带薪行政假，但没有给出原因。
He talked to the media about it.
他向媒体谈及此事。
In September, Dr. Whitfield defended himself at a board meeting.
九月，惠特菲尔德博士在一次董事会会议上为自己辩护。
One of the items on the agenda was should the district renew Whitfield's contract for the next year.
议程上的项目之一是学区是否应该在明年续签惠特菲尔德的合同。
Whitfield showed up for the public comments and, like everyone else, he got one minute to speak.
惠特菲尔德出席了公众评论，和其他人一样，他有一分钟的发言时间。
Hello, I'm Dr. James Whitfield.
你好，我是詹姆斯·惠特菲尔德博士。
Dr. Ryan, board of trustees, I first want to express my gratitude for all the love, support, and encouragement from the community, especially our students who have regretfully been criticized for their speaking up in this matter.
Ryan博士，董事会成员，我首先要对社会各界的爱、支持和鼓励表示感谢，特别是我们的学生，他们因在此事上发声而受到遗憾的批评。
I stand before you today no different than I was when I came in in '18-'19.
我今天站在你们面前与我 18-19 年进来时没有什么不同。
The 2018-2019 school year, when he was first hired by the district.
2018-2019学年，他首次被学区聘用。
I'm an advocate for all kids.
我是所有孩子的倡导者。
I believe every student, regardless of race, religion, sexual orientation, whatever bucket you want to put them in, I believe they all have access to-- they should have access to excellent, equitable education.
我相信每个学生，无论种族、宗教、性取向，无论你想把他们放在什么位置，我相信他们都有机会——他们应该获得优质、公平的教育。
Yes, I said those words.
是的，我说过这些话。
Unfortunately, my unapologetic stance for those things has brought us here tonight, which is disheartening.
不幸的是，我对这些事情毫无歉意的立场让我们今晚来到这里，这令人沮丧。
The attacks from people outside is one thing, but the outright silence and direct actions taken towards me by GSD leadership team-- GCIC leadership team, sorry, I'm trying to get this in-- was absolutely heartbreaking.
来自外界的攻击是一回事，但 GSD 领导团队（GCIC 领导团队，抱歉，我正在努力将这一点纳入进来）的彻底沉默和对我采取的直接行动绝对令人心碎。
I can assure you, I have not changed.
我可以向你保证，我没有改变。
I'm still the same man today as when you hired me in '18-'19.
今天我还是你在 18-19 年雇用我时的那个人。
You promoted me twice in three years.
三年内你两次提升我。
So I ask you what has changed since July 26--
所以我问你自7月26日以来发生了什么变化——
Thank you, Dr. Whitfield.
谢谢你，惠特菲尔德博士。
James Whitfield Dr. Ryan.
詹姆斯·惠特菲尔德·瑞安博士。
Excuse me, please.
对不起，请原谅。
Sir-- Board Member 2 Thank you, Dr. Whitfield.
先生-- 董事会成员 2 谢谢您，Whitfield 博士。
The board's response, they vote not to renew his contract.
董事会的回应是，他们投票不与他续约。
I reached out to the district, and they said they were not going to talk about this.
我联系了该地区，他们说他们不会谈论这个。
But in public statements they made earlier, they said the decision was not based on people calling for Dr. Whitfield to be fired.
但在他们早些时候发表的公开声明中，他们表示，这一决定并不是基于人们呼吁解雇惠特菲尔德博士。
They list a bunch of other reasons, stuff like insubordination.
他们列出了许多其他原因，例如不服从命令。
A Facebook post he wrote defending himself was not OK with them, against professional conduct.
他在脸书上发表的一篇为自己辩护的帖子让他们感到不满，违反了职业行为。
He talked to the media instead of filing formal complaints with the school.
他与媒体交谈，而不是向学校提出正式投诉。
As they read this list at the meeting, you could hear students and parents who came to support Whitfield scoff at the items being read.
当他们在会议上阅读这份清单时，你可以听到前来支持惠特菲尔德的学生和家长对正在阅读的项目嗤之以鼻。
The fifth reason for the recommendation, Dr. Whitfield has diminished his effectiveness by dividing large sections of the community by continuing to raise--
提出建议的第五个原因是，惠特菲尔德博士通过继续提出建议，分裂了社区的大部分人，从而降低了他的效率——
The response went on for so long she never got to finish the statement.
回应持续了很长时间，她根本没能把声明说完。
Please be quiet.
请安静。
Emanuele Berry It said he was dividing large sections of the community by, quote, "continuing to raise issues of critical race theory." Doctor Whitfield lost his job.
埃马努埃莱·贝里 (Emanuele Berry) 表示，他通过“继续提出批判种族理论的问题”来分裂社区的大部分人。惠特菲尔德医生失业了。
What changed over the last year?
去年发生了什么变化？
As Whitfield said, not him.
正如惠特菲尔德所说，不是他。
That email didn't change.
该电子邮件没有改变。
The black squares are gone from Instagram.
Instagram 上的黑色方块已经消失。
The random reparations money from friends, gone.
朋友乱发的赔款，没了。
We went from anti-racist books crowding the bestsellers list to banning kids' books about Rosa Parks.
我们从挤满畅销书排行榜的反种族主义书籍到禁止出版有关罗莎·帕克斯的儿童书籍。
For Dr. Whitfield, the consequence of getting caught in this backlash is he's no longer in the one place he really wants to be.
对于惠特菲尔德博士来说，陷入这种强烈反对的后果是他不再处于他真正想去的地方。
When I spoke with him in early November, he told me he was still dropping his kid off at elementary school.
当我 11 月初与他交谈时，他告诉我他仍在送孩子上小学。
The high school is across the street.
高中就在街对面。
Oh, I mean, I look over there every-- I can't just not look, right?
哦，我是说，我每次都会看那里——我不能不看，对吧？
My wife is just like, well, just try to look the other way.
我的妻子就像，好吧，试着看向别处。
And I can't.
而我不能。
You know, as I'm driving by, you can see down one of the main hallways, right?
你知道，当我开车经过时，你可以看到一条主要走廊，对吧？
There's these big windows, and you can see right down the hallway.
有这些大窗户，你可以看到走廊的尽头。
And so, as I'm walking by, I'm envisioning the different classrooms and the teachers that I would check on every morning.
因此，当我路过时，我想象着每天早上我会查看的不同教室和老师。
And it's three stories, and so by the time the first bell had rung, I was already at 10,000 steps because I'm running around this place, checking in on teachers.
这是三层楼，所以当第一声铃声响起时，我已经迈出了 10,000 步，因为我正在这个地方跑来跑去，查看老师的情况。
And so, I think about that every morning.
所以，我每天早上都会思考这个问题。
And so, yeah, it's really hard to pass by a place that you love and know that there's staff members that you love in there.
所以，是的，经过一个你喜欢的地方并且知道那里有你喜欢的工作人员真的很难。
There's students that you love in there.
里面有你喜欢的学生。
And you know that's where you're supposed to be.
你知道那是你应该去的地方。
But you're not allowed to be in there, right?
但你不被允许进去，对吧？
It's like, what kind of person is not allowed to be in there?
就好像，什么样的人不可以进去？
You know, it's disheartening.
你知道，这令人沮丧。
The line of what's acceptable to say about race and racism in America, it moved.
关于美国种族和种族主义可以接受的说法的界限发生了变化。
It's as though we were having one argument, and then the terms changed.
就好像我们发生了一场争吵，然后条款就变了。
And that shift has left many Black people exposed and vulnerable and living with those consequences.
这种转变使许多黑人暴露在危险之中，变得脆弱，并承受着这些后果。
This backlash, it's not surprising.
这种反弹，并不奇怪。
This is what America does, Reconstruction, then Jim Crow, the Civil Rights movement, to the war on drugs, Obama to Trump.
这就是美国所做的，重建，然后是吉姆·克劳，民权运动，到毒品战争，从奥巴马到特朗普。
So no, it's not surprising that there is backlash.
所以，出现强烈反对并不奇怪。
But what I am surprised by is the way people have been caught up and tangled in it, the choices they've made to either further twist themselves along the line of what's acceptable or move away from it, the way Black people have had to reconsider what to say, and the fallout that comes with those choices.
但令我惊讶的是，人们陷入困境并陷入困境的方式，他们做出的选择，要么进一步沿着可接受的路线扭曲自己，要么远离可接受的路线，黑人不得不重新考虑该说什么，以及这些选择带来的后果。
Our show today, two stories of people trying to figure out what to say or if they should say anything in this moment of backlash.
我们今天的节目讲述了两个故事，讲述的是人们试图弄清楚在这个强烈反对的时刻该说些什么或者是否应该说些什么。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act 1, Incident.
第一幕，事件。
The place that this backlash is playing out most dramatically is in schools, in particular, school board meetings.
这种强烈反对最明显的地方是在学校，特别是学校董事会会议。
So I spent a lot of time watching heated school board meetings this year.
所以今年我花了很多时间观看激烈的学校董事会会议。
Sometimes parents are angry about something as small as the email Dr. Whitfield wrote, or a specific book they don't like, or an effort to diversify a library's collection.
有时，父母会对一些小事感到愤怒，比如惠特菲尔德博士写的电子邮件，或者他们不喜欢的某本书，或者图书馆馆藏多样化的努力。
Sometimes it's a new resolution to promote equity in the school.
有时这是促进学校公平的新决议。
And a lot of these parents repeat the same talking points in these meetings across the country.
许多家长在全国各地的会议上重复相同的谈话要点。
They say microaggressions are not real.
他们说微侵犯并不真实。
What about reverse racism?
那么逆向种族主义呢？
And somehow, Martin Luther King, Jr. comes up a lot.
不知何故，马丁·路德·金经常出现。
But what these examples boil down to is we shouldn't be talking about racism because it's not a thing anymore.
但这些例子归结起来就是我们不应该谈论种族主义，因为它不再是一个问题了。
First thing I want to say, and it's a fact that Traverse City is not a racist city.
首先我想说的是，特拉弗斯城不是一个种族主义城市，这是事实。
And the US is definitely not a racist nation.
美国绝对不是一个种族主义国家。
This thing about this racism, we have been marching away from racism by leaps and bounds for decades upon decades.
关于种族主义，几十年来，我们一直在突飞猛进地远离种族主义。
I keep wondering what is it like to be a kid in one of these towns, for kids of color, especially, when some adults are saying racism is a problem and other adults are saying it's not one at all.
我一直想知道，作为这些城镇中的一个孩子，对于有色人种的孩子来说，是什么感觉，特别是当一些成年人说种族主义是一个问题而其他成年人说这根本不是一个问题时。
For instance, the meeting you just heard from Traverse City, what's so remarkable about this particular meeting is that what these parents are partially responding to is a clearly racist incident in their schools.
例如，您刚刚从特拉弗斯城听到的会议，这次会议的非凡之处在于，这些家长部分回应的是他们学校中明显的种族主义事件。
I've been talking to a kid who was targeted in that incident, a 16-year-old Black biracial girl named Nevaeh, about what had happened to her.
我一直在和一个成为该事件目标的孩子交谈，她是一位名叫 Nevaeh 的 16 岁黑人混血女孩，讲述了她身上发生的事情。
And her story is so much more personal and immediate than what you get from any of these meetings.
她的故事比你从这些会议中得到的信息更加个人化和直接。
A quick warning, this story might not be appropriate for kids.
快速警告，这个故事可能不适合孩子。
Here it is, Act 1.
这是第一幕。
A year ago, Nevaeh was a sophomore in high school who didn't think about her Blackness too much.
一年前，内瓦还是一名高中二年级学生，她并没有过多地考虑自己的黑人身份。
Yes, she lives in a mostly white town, 90% white.
是的，她住在一个以白人为主的小镇，90%都是白人。
And yes, she's often the only person of color in a given room, including her family.
是的，她通常是特定房间中唯一的有色人种，包括她的家人。
She's adopted.
她是被领养的。
They're white.
他们是白色的。
But her journals were not filled with tragic Black-girl-in-white-town clichés.
但她的日记中并没有充满悲惨的白衣黑人女孩的陈词滥调。
She was writing fiction, fantasy, young adult, romance.
她写小说、奇幻小说、青年小说、爱情小说。
I love fiction writing more than anything.
我最喜欢小说写作。
I could not write poetry or nonfiction.
我不会写诗歌或非小说类作品。
And then, I'm also really interested in psychology.
然后，我对心理学也很感兴趣。
I've taken that class for-- I'm on my second year taking it now.
我已经上这门课了——我现在已经是第二年了。
I find it really interesting.
我觉得这真的很有趣。
When you say psychology, what is it about psychology that you're interested in?
当你说心理学时，你对心理学的什么感兴趣？
I love learning about why people act the way they do in certain situations.
我喜欢了解人们为什么在某些情况下会这样做。
Like, the brain is cool, but I'm more onto, like, the behavioral aspect of psychology
就像，大脑很酷，但我更喜欢心理学的行为方面
Nevaeh is a self-proclaimed overthinker.
内瓦自称是一个过度思考者。
And she does this thing, when you talk with her, that makes her feel both mature and young at the same time.
当你和她交谈时，她会做这样的事情，这让她同时感到成熟和年轻。
It's that, when she doesn't know something, she says she doesn't know it with such confidence that you feel assured that someday she will know that thing.
就是说，当她不知道某件事时，她会非常自信地说她不知道，以至于你确信有一天她会知道那件事。
A year ago, Nevaeh would have described her high school and her experience there as typical.
一年前，内瓦赫会形容她的高中和在那里的经历是典型的。
I mean, like, there are groups here and there.
我的意思是，到处都有团体。
But it's not like the, oh, you can't sit with us, you're not that type of person.
但这并不像，哦，你不能和我们坐在一起，你不是那种人。
No, it's not.
不，不是。
It's not like that at all.
根本不是那样的。
Nevaeh had a lot of friends.
内瓦有很多朋友。
She wove in and out of a bunch of different groups at school.
她在学校的一群不同的团体中穿梭。
And then she had her inner circle.
然后她就有了自己的核心圈子。
One of her closest friends in that circle, someone she talked to daily, I'll call Katie.
她在那个圈子里最亲密的朋友之一，她每天都会与之交谈的人，我称之为凯蒂。
We met in seventh grade, and we went to the same school for seventh and eighth grade.
我们七年级时认识的，七年级和八年级在同一所学校。
And so we were really close.
所以我们真的很亲密。
And then ninth grade came along, and I moved schools.
然后九年级到来了，我换了学校。
But we still kept in contact and we still talked all the time.
但我们仍然保持联系，仍然一直交谈。
During the pandemic, they would sit on FaceTime together and hang out.
疫情期间，他们会一起坐在 FaceTime 上闲逛。
Katie was a person who could talk Nevaeh down when she was stressed, especially about school.
凯蒂是一个能够在 Nevaeh 有压力时说服她的人，尤其是在学校的事情上。
They were also goofballs together.
他们在一起也很傻。
They'd go to the mall just to try on outrageous outfits and crack each other up.
他们去商场只是为了试穿奇装异服，互相取笑。
The racist thing that happened to Nevaeh, the thing that led to those heated school board meetings, that happened in the spring of 2021.
发生在 Nevaeh 的种族主义事件，导致了激烈的学校董事会会议，发生在 2021 年春天。
And it started with a text from Katie.
一切都是从凯蒂发来的短信开始的。
And just said that she was in this really, like, messed up group chat with her friends.
刚刚说她正在和她的朋友们进行这个非常混乱的群聊。
It was late at night and I was tired, so I didn't really like-- I was like, oh, OK, if it's really that bad, you should leave.
当时已经是深夜了，我很累，所以我不太喜欢——我想，哦，好吧，如果真的那么糟糕，你应该离开。
I'm going to go to bed.
我要去睡觉了。
Nevaeh wasn't really sure what Katie was talking about, so she brushed it off.
内瓦不太确定凯蒂在说什么，所以她没有理睬。
She woke up the next morning to more messages from Katie about what happened in the group chat.
第二天早上，她醒来时看到凯蒂发来更多关于群聊中发生的事情的消息。
She texted me and she was like, hey, you were in it.
她给我发短信说，嘿，你也在其中。
And I was like, oh, I was in it?
我当时想，哦，我也在其中吗？
What's it about?
是关于什么的？
And then she told me.
然后她告诉我。
She was just like, oh, they're, like, bad stuff.
她就像，哦，他们是，就像，坏东西。
They're selling, like, people.
他们在卖人。
And I was like, oh.
我当时想，哦。
The group chat was called Slave Trade, with two purple devil emojis.
该群聊名为“奴隶贸易”，有两个紫色恶魔表情符号。
It's about half a dozen mostly white students listing their Black classmates for sale, posting their pictures and throwing out bids as if they're in an auction, like, a slave auction.
大约有六名主要是白人的学生列出了待售的黑人同学，张贴他们的照片并提出出价，就好像他们正在参加一场拍卖，就像奴隶拍卖一样。
Apparently, Nevaeh was one of the people in the chat who was, quote, unquote, "put up for sale."
显然，内瓦赫是聊天中“待售”的人之一。
My first reaction was how much did I go for and who did I go to?
我的第一反应是我花了多少钱以及我去找谁了？
Full honesty there.
那里充满诚实。
And she said that I went to her for free.
她还说我免费去找她。
The chat is essentially a private text thread that after some time disappears, a feature of the Snapchat app.
聊天本质上是一条私人文本线程，一段时间后就会消失，这是 Snapchat 应用程序的一项功能。
Some students tell the school district about the chat.
一些学生向学区讲述了这次谈话。
The school calls Nevaeh's mom and the parents of other students.
学校给内瓦赫的妈妈和其他学生的家长打电话。
And it's while her mom's on the phone with the school that it all starts to sink in.
当她妈妈给学校打电话时，这一切才开始深入人心。
And at that point, I was like, oh, I was sold.
那时，我就想，哦，我被卖了。
I don't know how bad that is, but I assume it's not the best.
我不知道这有多糟糕，但我认为这不是最好的。
And so then I asked my friend to give me screenshots.
然后我让我的朋友给我截图。
And she did.
她做到了。
This is what they say.
他们就是这么说的。
First screenshot, one student, "What up, niggas.
第一张截图，一名学生，“怎么了，黑鬼。
New group chat for making fun of Black people." In reply, "Very nice." Another screenshot, "All Blacks should die.
用于取笑黑人的新群聊。”回复说：“非常好。”另一张截图，“所有黑人都应该死。
Let's have another Holocaust." "Yay," someone cheers.
让我们再来一场大屠杀吧。” “耶，”有人欢呼。
"I concur," says another.
“我同意，”另一个人说。
Picture of a Black kid.
一个黑人孩子的照片。
"Homo goes for $50.
“Homo 售价 50 美元。
Man's sus.
男人的苏。
He comes as a bonus.
他是作为奖金而来的。
He's free." Someone else adds, "Man so gay, I'll kill him for Jesus." Another screenshot, picture of another Black student, "Negative $10 for autism," someone says.
他自由了。”还有人补充道，“这个家伙这么同性恋，我会为了耶稣杀了他。”另一张截图，是另一名黑人学生的照片，“自闭症负 10 美元，”有人说。
"50% off sale."
“50%折扣。”
Picture of two black teenagers.
两个黑人青少年的照片。
Someone says, "They can run, but they can't hide.
有人说：“他们可以跑，但不能躲。
$100 each, double the trouble.
每个100美元，麻烦加倍。
They like picking cotton." Someone makes an offer.
他们喜欢摘棉花。”有人提出报价。
"I'll take them for $150 as the pair."
“我愿意以 150 美元一对的价格购买它们。”
Another screenshot, picture of Nevaeh.
另一张截图，Nevaeh 的图片。
She's in a red crop top and jeans and a hat, posing near a tree.
她穿着红色露脐上衣和牛仔裤，戴着帽子，在一棵树附近摆姿势。
Written underneath, "Starting bid, $100." "Ew," someone comments.
下面写着：“起拍价，100 美元。” “呃，”有人评论道。
Another "ew." Followed by another.
又一个“呃”。紧随其后的是另一个。
And then just, then and there, everything hit.
然后就在那时，一切都发生了。
I was disgusted to the gut.
我对肠子感到厌恶。
It was just, like, oh, my gosh.
这就像，哦，天哪。
I joked with these students before.
我之前和这些学生开玩笑过。
I couldn't believe that they would think of typing something that they thought like it would be OK.
我不敢相信他们会想到输入一些他们认为没问题的东西。
After, like, everything with Black Lives Matter this last year, it was just like, wow, OK.
就像去年“黑人生命也是命”的一切之后，我就觉得，哇，好吧。
It showed me the type of person they were.
它向我展示了他们是什么样的人。
It's almost like Nevaeh's inside the darker, not funny version of that Eddie Murphy skit.
这几乎就像是内瓦在埃迪·墨菲短剧的更黑暗、不搞笑的版本中。
Maybe you've seen it.
也许你已经看过了。
The one where he goes undercover as a white man and discovers all the things white people do when there aren't Black people in the room.
他作为一名白人卧底，发现了当房间里没有黑人时白人所做的所有事情。
She had a new window into who her classmates were in private, in these screenshots.
在这些截图中，她有了一个新的窗口，可以了解她的同学私下里是谁。
It was the spring of 2021.
那是2021年的春天。
Luckily, she was in remote school.
幸运的是，她在偏远学校上学。
She wouldn't have to face them until her junior year started in the fall.
直到秋天大三开始时，她才需要面对他们。
Nevaeh's mom, Jala, saw the screenshots and the words "all Blacks should die" and worried for Nevaeh's safety.
内瓦赫的妈妈贾拉看到了截图和“所有黑人都应该死”的字样，并担心内瓦赫的安全。
She emailed all the school board members, went back and forth with school administrators.
她给所有学校董事会成员发了电子邮件，并与学校管理人员进行了交流。
She felt like no one was taking it seriously.
她觉得没有人认真对待这件事。
She called the police.
她报了警。
The police investigated the group chat.
警方对群聊进行了调查。
A few weeks later they told Jala that there were no chargeable offenses.
几周后，他们告诉贾拉，没有任何可指控的罪行。
Jala's confused.
贾拉很困惑。
I said that doesn't make any sense because there was talks of killing all Black kids and starting another Holocaust.
我说这没有任何意义，因为有人谈论杀死所有黑人孩子并开始另一场大屠杀。
To me, that was a direct-- indirect threat of something that could potentially happen.
对我来说，这是对可能发生的事情的直接或间接威胁。
And he just disregarded it as kids being kids and talking smack.
他只是无视这一切，就像小孩子就是小孩子一样，胡言乱语。
The school gets back to Jala and Nevaeh about how they will handle the Snapchat incident.
学校向 Jala 和 Nevaeh 询问他们将如何处理 Snapchat 事件。
Ultimately, they say they will follow the district's policy for discipline, but they couldn't say specifically what that meant.
最终，他们表示将遵守学区的纪律政策，但他们无法具体说明这意味着什么。
Nevaeh was worried.
内瓦很担心。
It seemed like the whole thing was just going to be swept under the rug.
看起来整件事都将被掩盖起来。
And she wanted people to know what happened.
她希望人们知道发生了什么。
She hadn't done anything to be a part of the Snapchat except be Black.
除了成为黑人之外，她没有做任何事情来成为 Snapchat 的一部分。
Should she speak up?
她应该说出来吗？
But she worried over that too.
但她也担心这一点。
If I say something, will people think I'm overreacting?
如果我说了什么，人们会认为我反应过度吗？
But if I don't say anything, will anyone else even know about this?
但如果我不说，其他人会知道这件事吗？
In the end, Nevaeh made the decision to speak.
最终，内瓦赫决定发言。
She talked to the press about what happened.
她向媒体讲述了所发生的事情。
Instead of disappearing, the story of mostly white high schoolers auctioning off their Black classmates in a secret slave auction, it got a lot of attention.
大多数白人高中生在秘密奴隶拍卖中拍卖黑人同学的故事并没有消失，而是引起了很多关注。
At first, Nevaeh felt good talking about it.
起初，内瓦（Nevaeh）谈论这件事感觉很好。
She got a lot of support.
她得到了很多支持。
People reached out.
人们伸出手来。
She felt a sense of relief.
她有一种如释重负的感觉。
But just as quickly, as is happening in many parts of America, talking about racism in Traverse City led to backlash.
但正如美国许多地方发生的那样，在特拉弗斯城谈论种族主义很快就引起了强烈反对。
Nevaeh speaking up set off other, bigger conversations about racism in the community, which led to that heated school board meeting where some adults insisted Traverse City is not a racist place and that any discussion of racism causes division.
内瓦赫的发言引发了社区中关于种族主义的其他更大的讨论，这导致了一场激烈的学校董事会会议，一些成年人坚称特拉弗斯城不是一个种族主义的地方，任何关于种族主义的讨论都会引起分裂。
But something that was more important to Nevaeh was the backlash she got from her peers.
但对 Nevaeh 来说更重要的是她受到同龄人的强烈反对。
Some kids started to get tired of seeing Nevaeh on the news.
有些孩子开始厌倦在新闻中看到 Nevaeh。
And to Nevaeh, it seemed almost irritated.
对内瓦来说，它似乎几乎被激怒了。
She noticed a gradual change, even among some of her friends.
她注意到了逐渐的变化，甚至在她的一些朋友中也是如此。
They've always been nice, and I've always hung out with them a lot.
他们一直都很好，我也经常和他们一起出去玩。
And I thought that we kind of had the same viewpoint and opinions on a lot of things.
我认为我们在很多事情上都有相同的观点和看法。
And so then when this whole thing happened and they started to say, oh, why are people still talking about it, why is it such a big deal, that really showed me, like, oh, we disagree on such a big topic here, like racism.
所以当这整件事发生时，他们开始说，哦，为什么人们还在谈论它，为什么它这么重要，这真的让我看到，哦，我们在种族主义这样一个大话题上存在分歧。
Where do they stand?
他们站在哪里？
And should I let something like this determine my friendship with someone or not?
我是否应该让这样的事情决定我与某人的友谊？
This question, where do the people around me stand, it was a question that kept coming up again and again and again as the summer passed and the school year approached.
这个问题，我周围的人站在哪里，随着夏天的过去和学年的临近，这个问题不断地被问到。
In the fall, she went back to school in person for the first time since the incident.
秋天，事件发生后，她第一次亲自回到学校。
Nevaeh's a junior.
内瓦是一名大三学生。
She looked around and wondered, who are my friends?
她环顾四周，想知道我的朋友是谁？
Who can I trust?
我可以信任谁？
Who thinks it's OK I was sold in a slave trade?
谁认为我被卖入奴隶贸易是可以接受的？
Nevaeh thinks to herself, I can be friends with anybody.
Nevaeh 心想，我可以和任何人成为朋友。
One of the kids who participated in the Snapchat slave trade, I'll call him Luke, they were texting right after the incident and again just before school started.
参与 Snapchat 奴隶贸易的孩子之一，我称他为卢克，他们在事件发生后和开学前再次发短信。
The text said--
文字说——
Like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
就像，天哪，我很抱歉，巴拉，巴拉，巴拉，巴拉，巴拉。
And then I've had other students come up to me and be like, he's really sorry.
然后其他学生来找我说，他真的很抱歉。
He is scared of you now.
他现在很怕你。
He is--
他是——
Good.
很好。
Nevaeh Yeah, he's scared of me now.
Nevaeh 是的，他现在害怕我了。
The second time he sent me an apology, he was like, oh, I want to be friends with you again.
第二次他给我道歉时，他说，哦，我想再次和你成为朋友。
And I was like, OK.
我当时想，好吧。
I'm cool with being friends with anybody.
我很乐意与任何人成为朋友。
They texted a little, but it wasn't the same.
他们发了一些短信，但内容不一样。
Luke's a chatterbox and a jokester, Nevaeh says.
内瓦说，卢克是个话痨和爱开玩笑的人。
They were old friends.
他们是老朋友了。
They've known each other since middle school.
他们从中学就认识了。
But she couldn't talk to Luke about what happened.
但她无法与卢克谈论发生的事情。
It seemed like he just wanted to move past it without ever addressing it.
看起来他只是想跳过它而不去解决它。
And then it just got weird because it felt like-- I mean, there was something we couldn't discuss between each other.
然后事情就变得很奇怪，因为感觉就像——我的意思是，有些事情我们无法在彼此之间讨论。
And it was a thick line between us that was just kind of awkward.
我们之间有一条很粗的界线，这有点尴尬。
And so I just stopped talking to him.
所以我就不再和他说话了。
Luke was the first friend Nevaeh was forced to make a decision about.
卢克是内瓦赫被迫做出决定的第一个朋友。
Maybe she couldn't be friends with everyone.
也许她不可能和每个人都成为朋友。
As the weeks passed, she started ignoring him.
几个星期过去了，她开始无视他。
Like, if she sees him in the halls, she'd look at her phone, walk to the other side.
就像，如果她在大厅里看到他，她会看看手机，走到另一边。
Staying away from Luke meant she distanced herself from other friends, like her one friend I'll call Leah.
远离卢克意味着她与其他朋友保持距离，就像她的一个朋友，我称之为利亚。
She was like, hey, I know how wrong, like, what he did.
她说，嘿，我知道他所做的有多么错误。
But I am friends with him.
但我和他是朋友。
And I told her, hey, I'm not going to be the one to tell you who you can and cannot be friends with.
我告诉她，嘿，我不会告诉你可以和谁做朋友，不能和谁做朋友。
If you want to be friends with him, you can be friends with him.
如果你想和他做朋友，你就可以和他做朋友。
And I've just been like, hey, but if you are friends with him, you have to understand and consider the fact that I'm not going to be around as much.
我只是说，嘿，但是如果你是他的朋友，你就必须理解并考虑我不会经常出现在他身边的事实。
Like, I'm not going to hang out with him when you're hanging out with-- I'm not going to hang out with him at all, in general.
就像，当你和我一起出去玩时，我不会和他一起出去玩——一般来说，我根本不会和他一起出去玩。
I think it's just hard for her to like, I guess, let him go.
我想她很难喜欢，我猜，让他走吧。
So Nevaeh tries to navigate this new social landscape on her own.
因此，内瓦试图独自驾驭这个新的社会格局。
But it's not simple.
但这并不简单。
Take this one time a couple of months ago.
几个月前就经历过一次。
Nevaeh was meeting Leah at a football game.
内瓦在一场足球比赛中认识了莉亚。
She got to the stands and Luke was there.
她到达看台，卢克也在场。
Nevaeh had no idea he would be there.
内瓦赫不知道他会在那里。
I'm not going to be a baby about this.
我不会在这件事上当个孩子。
I can be mature.
我可以变得成熟。
And I don't have to speak to him.
而且我不需要和他说话。
I'm not going to make a big deal out of this.
我不会因此小题大做。
So then I was just like, OK, I want to watch the game, so I'll stay.
然后我就想，好吧，我想看比赛，所以我会留下来。
The game started.
比赛开始了。
Leah called a player trash for making a bad play.
利亚因为一名球员打得不好而称其为垃圾。
Then Luke, who was behind Nevaeh with his buddies, defends the player, mocks the girl who shouted, calling her mean, telling her he'd never say something so mean.
然后卢克和他的伙伴们站在内瓦赫身后，为这名玩家辩护，嘲笑那个大喊大叫的女孩，称她刻薄，并告诉她他永远不会说如此刻薄的话。
It rung in Nevaeh's ears.
这声音在尼瓦赫的耳边响起。
And then I just, like, I stopped and I turned around, and I was like, really?
然后我就停下来转过身，我想，真的吗？
And then he looked at me and his mouth just dropped open.
然后他看着我，嘴巴张开了。
And then his friends started like, Nevaeh, Naveah, you don't need to bring that up.
然后他的朋友们开始说，Nevaeh，Naveah，你不需要提起这个。
Come on.
快点。
No, no thank you.
不，不，谢谢。
He's already been through enough.
他已经经历够了。
Nevaeh I didn't want to cause trouble for Luke.
呃，我不想给卢克带来麻烦。
She wished him well.
她祝他一切顺利。
She just couldn't pretend that nothing happened.
她只是不能假装什么都没发生。
And she couldn't stop questioning a lot of her relationships, even her relationship with Katie.
她无法停止质疑自己的很多人际关系，甚至是她和凯蒂的关系。
It was never clear to Nevaeh if Katie had participated in the chat.
内瓦一直不清楚凯蒂是否参与了这次聊天。
They were friends.
他们是朋友。
Katie is the one who told her about the chat.
凯蒂是告诉她这次谈话的人。
It didn't make sense that she would have joined in.
她加入是没有意义的。
But Katie had said she'd bought Nevaeh for free.
但凯蒂说过她免费买了 Nevaeh。
That detail stuck with Nevaeh.
这个细节让内瓦赫印象深刻。
Then she started to hear from other people that Katie had said stuff.
然后她开始从其他人那里听到凯蒂说了一些话。
Was that true?
这是真的吗？
The screenshots Katie sent Nevaeh didn't have the full conversation.
凯蒂发给内瓦赫的截图并没有完整的对话内容。
In the screenshots she does have, Katie says nothing.
在她拥有的屏幕截图中，凯蒂什么也没说。
Was it possible there was something in the missing parts of the chat?
是不是聊天内容中漏掉了一些东西？
Nevaeh wondered, did she laugh at me?
内瓦想知道，她是在笑我吗？
Did she place any bids?
她有出价吗？
No, she probably stayed quiet, didn't say anything.
不，她可能只是保持沉默，什么也没说。
She's the reason I even know what happened.
她是我知道发生了什么事的原因。
Nevaeh was scared to ask her, so she didn't.
Nevaeh 不敢问她，所以她没有问。
They continued to be friends, but the uncertainty weighed on Nevaeh.
他们仍然是朋友，但不确定性给内瓦带来了压力。
As much as I'd like to think she wasn't the type of person to do this, all of these people who were in the group chat were her friends.
尽管我很想她不是那种会这么做的人，但群聊中的所有这些人都是她的朋友。
She hung out with them every day.
她每天都和他们一起出去玩。
She was surrounded by them all the time.
她一直被他们包围着。
She FaceTimed them.
她和他们进行了视频通话。
She joked with them all the time.
她一直和他们开玩笑。
And they made jokes like these all the time.
他们总是开这样的玩笑。
The guy who started it, that was his personality.
发起这件事的人，就是他的个性。
He was just a rude, racist person.
他只是一个粗鲁的种族主义者。
And so, if she's surrounding herself with such rude, racist people like that, eventually, she's going to adapt that and adopt that kind of behavior.
因此，如果她周围都是这样粗鲁、种族主义的人，最终她会适应并采取这种行为。
I mean, I learned it in psychology, so--
我的意思是，我在心理学中学到了它，所以——
[LAUGHTER] I contacted Katie through her mom.
[笑声]我通过凯蒂妈妈联系了她。
I wanted them to know that Nevaeh and Katie's friendship would come up in this story.
我想让他们知道内瓦和凯蒂的友谊会出现在这个故事中。
She told me they were not interested in talking and were moving past this incident.
她告诉我，他们没有兴趣交谈，并且正在忘记这件事。
Nevaeh started to withdraw from Katie.
内瓦开始远离凯蒂。
When Katie confronted her about why she was ignoring her, the conversation Nevaeh had been avoiding happened.
当凯蒂质问她为什么忽视她时，内瓦一直回避的谈话发生了。
And I was just like, hey, can you just straight-up be honest with me right now?
我当时就想，嘿，你现在能直接对我说实话吗？
Did you say something about me?
你有说过关于我的话吗？
Have you participated in this group chat?
你参加过这个群聊吗？
And then we got into a bit of an argument.
然后我们发生了一些争论。
She called me rude and low for ever suggesting a thing and that I was just, like, a bad friend for even thinking that.
她因为我提出了某件事而说我粗鲁和卑鄙，而且我只是一个坏朋友，因为我有这样的想法。
And then I was just like, OK, if you-- she told me that she wasn't involved in it.
然后我就想，好吧，如果你——她告诉我她没有参与其中。
I don't know what to think about it.
我不知道该怎么想。
And so, I just was like, hey, OK, I'm going to distance myself from you.
所以，我只是想，嘿，好吧，我要和你保持距离。
And that was it.
就是这样。
The Snapchat slave trade was almost nine months ago.
Snapchat 奴隶贸易已经是九个月前的事了。
Because there was a school investigation and a police investigation and a Title IX investigation, lots of adults-- school administrators, police-- know exactly what was said in those messages.
因为有学校调查、警方调查和第九条调查，所以很多成年人——学校管理人员、警察——确切地知道这些信息中所说的内容。
But Nevaeh doesn't.
但内瓦没有。
It really bugs her.
这真让她烦恼。
How odd to have an otherwise ordinary rite of passage for any high schooler-- what did my friends say and do behind my back-- actually have a documented answer.
对于任何一个高中生来说，有一个原本普通的成人仪式是多么奇怪——我的朋友们在我背后说了什么、做了什么——实际上有一个记录在案的答案。
Nevaeh says she asked for the full conversation from the school, but they never gave it to her and told her Katie shouldn't have shared it.
内瓦说，她要求学校提供完整的谈话内容，但他们从未给过她，并告诉她凯蒂不应该分享这些内容。
They told her if she wanted to see more, she could file a Freedom of Information Act request, or a FOIA request.
他们告诉她，如果她想了解更多信息，可以提交《信息自由法》请求或《信息自由法》请求。
So she did.
所以她做到了。
I did too.
我也这么做了。
And then, Nevaeh waited.
然后，内瓦等待着。
I asked her, you know it could say some really hurtful stuff, right?
我问她，你知道这可能会说出一些非常伤人的话，对吗？
It may really hurt me.
这可能真的伤害了我。
I think that if I see it, I can handle it.
我想如果我看到它，我就能处理它。
And I will handle it.
我会处理的。
And it'd just give me closure, not only for me, but closure, like, if Katie participated or not.
它只会给我一个结局，不仅对我来说，而且对我来说，就像凯蒂参加与否一样。
Because I'm still questioning that.
因为我还在质疑这一点。
Was it the right decision to just cut Katie off?
与凯蒂断绝关系是正确的决定吗？
Or was I just paranoid, you know?
或者我只是偏执，你知道吗？
What else was-- I mean, I-- you know?
还有什么——我是说，我——你知道吗？
And so, just seeing if Katie participated or not, and then seeing what else was said about me, those two things will just give me, like, the most closure ever.
所以，只要看看凯蒂是否参加了，然后看看别人对我的评价，这两件事就会给我带来有史以来最大的结局。
My FOIA request came in first, a few weeks ago.
几周前，我首先提出了《信息自由法》请求。
It was close to 500 pages printed out, emails after emails, police reports, disciplinary hearing forms.
打印出来的内容接近 500 页，包括一封又一封的电子邮件、警方报告、纪律听证会表格。
But it's heavily redacted, which is honestly pretty normal for a FOIA.
但它被大量编辑，这对于信息自由法来说确实很正常。
I brought it to Nevaeh's house, and she, her mom, and I sat at the kitchen table trying to sort through it all.
我把它带到了 Nevaeh 的家里，她、她的妈妈和我坐在厨房的桌子旁，试图整理这一切。
There's so much information behind these black squares.
这些黑色方块背后隐藏着很多信息。
I just-- wow, really?
我只是——哇，真的吗？
Cross out their names, but show me what they said.
划掉他们的名字，但让我看看他们说了什么。
The screenshots Nevaeh was hoping to see, fully blacked out.
内瓦赫希望看到的屏幕截图完全被涂黑了。
There were little bits of information here and there in the report, but it was hard to decipher.
报告中的信息很少，但很难解读。
The was some new information in there.
里面有一些新信息。
For one thing, the Snapchat wasn't the first time that a group of kids sold their Black peers in a slave auction.
一方面，Snapchat 并不是第一次有一群孩子在奴隶拍卖中出售他们的黑人同龄人。
In the FOIA, the kid who started the slave trade in Traverse City said they saw it on TikTok.
根据《信息自由法》，在特拉弗斯城开始奴隶贸易的孩子说，他们在 TikTok 上看到了这一点。
There was another one in Texas.
德克萨斯州还有另一处。
Second, the FOIA made it clear that there were more screenshots than the ones Nevaeh had seen.
其次，《信息自由法》明确表示，屏幕截图比 Nevaeh 看到的还要多。
All of them are blacked out.
全部都被黑了。
I could see the frustration and disappointment on Nevaeh's face as she flipped through page after page.
当 Nevaeh 一页一页地翻阅时，我可以看到她脸上的沮丧和失望。
It's really frustrating to look at these just like tons of black pages and just boxes that are completely-- then again, I just want to know what they said.
看着这些就像大量的黑页和完全是盒子一样，真的很令人沮丧——话又说回来，我只是想知道他们说了什么。
I don't understand why that's so difficult to just hand it over to me.
我不明白为什么把它交给我这么困难。
I was in this group chat.
我就在这个群聊里。
I was a target.
我是一个目标。
And so I feel like, as someone who was in the group chat and talked about in the group chat, I should be given the right to see what else was said about me because-- you know?
所以我觉得，作为一个在群聊中并在群聊中谈论过的人，我应该有权查看其他关于我的言论，因为 - 你知道吗？
Nevaeh saw something in the FOIA that gave her pause.
内瓦赫在《信息自由法》中看到的一些东西让她停了下来。
The names are blacked out, but she could see in the report that someone in the chat didn't participate.
名字被涂黑了，但她可以在报告中看到聊天中有人没有参与。
She kept seeing that over again, blacked out name, "did not participate." 50 pages later, blacked out name, "did not participate." Was that Katie?
她一遍又一遍地看到，把名字涂黑，“没有参加”。 50页后，名字被涂黑，“没有参加”。那是凯蒂吗？
It just makes me question, like, maybe Katie was telling me the truth.
这让我产生疑问，也许凯蒂说的是实话。
And here I was just brushing it off because of how strongly I was focused on finding out if she was in it or not.
在这里，我只是不理会它，因为我非常专注于找出她是否在其中。
So I guess, if anything, it just makes me question myself more and my judgments more.
所以我想，如果有的话，它只会让我更多地质疑自己和我的判断。
The next day, Nevaeh sent me a text.
第二天，内瓦给我发了一条短信。
She made the choice to believe that the blacked out name, the person who did not participate, was Katie.
她选择相信那个被涂黑的名字，即没有参加的人，就是凯蒂。
Reading the FOIA made Nevaeh think about their relationship, about who she could trust, something she'd been struggling with.
阅读《信息自由法》让 Nevaeh 思考了他们的关系，思考了她可以信任的人，以及她一直在努力解决的问题。
Before this incident, she had no reason to think that Katie wasn't an honest person.
在这件事发生之前，她没有理由认为凯蒂不是一个诚实的人。
She said she reached out to Katie to apologize and Katie had responded.
她说她向凯蒂道歉，凯蒂做出了回应。
Nevaeh did not just want to know what was said about her in the chat.
Nevaeh 不仅仅想知道聊天中关于她的言论。
She wanted everyone to know.
她想让每个人都知道。
She wanted to talk about it.
她想谈谈这件事。
But the message she felt like she kept getting from her school, the police, her friends, from the school board meeting in her town, from the 500-page blacked out FOIA, was we don't want to talk about this.
但她觉得她不断从学校、警察、朋友、镇上的学校董事会会议、500页被涂黑的《信息自由法》中得到的信息是，我们不想谈论这件事。
We don't want to talk about racism.
我们不想谈论种族主义。
It's the same message that has been on repeat everywhere in this moment of backlash.
在这强烈反对的时刻，同样的信息在各地重复出现。
And as a kid, if that's the message you're getting, bury the racism, what do you do with that?
作为一个孩子，如果这就是你收到的信息，埋葬种族主义，你会怎么做？
About an hour after I left their house, Nevaeh's mom sent me a picture, Nevaeh in her room, sitting on her bed, surrounded by the FOIA, which she'd arranged in many little stacks of paper, like a detective sorting and sifting through the clues, still puzzling, still trying to find something to help her make sense of it all.
我离开家大约一个小时后，内瓦赫的妈妈给我发了一张照片，内瓦赫在她的房间里，坐在床上，周围都是《信息自由法》，她把《信息自由法》分成了许多小叠纸，就像一个侦探在整理和筛选线索，仍然感到困惑，仍然试图找到一些东西来帮助她理解这一切。
Coming up, a person who does not want to know anything about what's being said behind their back.
来了，一个不想知道背后说了什么的人。
That's in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.
稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Emanuele Berry in for Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯的伊曼纽尔·贝里。
Today's show, "Talking While Black," stories of people caught up in this moment of backlash.
今天的节目“黑人说话”讲述了陷入这一强烈反对时刻的人们的故事。
We've gone from 2020, companies tweeting out Black Lives Matter, there's all these diversity initiatives, to now, where it feels like even just saying something is Black is controversial.
从 2020 年开始，公司在推特上发布“黑人的命也是命”，还有所有这些多元化举措，到现在，感觉即使只是说某件事是黑人也会引起争议。
States are passing laws to limit conversations about racism.
各州正在通过法律限制有关种族主义的对话。
Black people are losing their jobs for talking about race too much.
黑人因过多谈论种族而失去工作。
I keep returning to this question over the last few months.
过去几个月我不断回到这个问题。
In this backlash, what are you allowed to say?
在这种强烈的反对声中，你还能说什么？
Like, as a Black person, what about Black lives or the Black experience is actually OK to talk about?
就像，作为一个黑人，关于黑人生活或黑人经历实际上可以谈论吗？
This next story gets at this question.
下一个故事将解答这个问题。
We've arrived at Act 2 of our program, Act 2, The Farce Awakens.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕，第二幕，闹剧觉醒。
One place where you can see this dizzying whiplash is books by Black people and about Black people.
你可以看到这种令人眼花缭乱的鞭打的地方是黑人的书籍和关于黑人的书籍。
After the murder of George Floyd, sales of Black books skyrocketed.
乔治·弗洛伊德被谋杀后，黑书的销量猛增。
Ibram X.
伊布拉姆·X.
Kendi's Stamped from the Beginning, The New Jim Crow, So You Want to Talk About Race, were all of a sudden bestsellers.
肯迪的《从一开始就被印记》、《新吉姆·克劳》、《所以你想谈谈种族》突然成为畅销书。
For a window of time, people really wanted to hear what Black authors had to say.
在一段时间内，人们真的很想听听黑人作家的看法。
And then, they dramatically did not want to hear anymore.
然后，他们戏剧性地不想再听了。
Not only did sales slow, but there are now efforts to ban many of these books that were so celebrated a little over a year ago.
不仅销售放缓，而且现在还禁止许多一年多前备受推崇的书籍。
Producer Chana Joffe-Walt spoke with one author who found his book banned and whose professional arc is sort of a mirror for this backlash.
制片人查纳·约菲-沃尔特 (Chana Joffe-Walt) 采访了一位作家，这位作家发现自己的书被禁，而他的职业生涯就是这种强烈抵制的一面镜子。
Here's Chana.
这是查娜。
I learned about this particular banned book from Deborah Caldwell-Stone.
我从黛博拉·考德威尔-斯通那里了解到这本特别的禁书。
She's the director of the American Library Association's Office for Intellectual Freedom.
她是美国图书馆协会知识自由办公室主任。
Her job is to track efforts to censor and ban books.
她的工作是跟踪审查和禁止书籍的努力。
And she was telling me she's never seen anything like this fall before, in her decades on the job, just the number of books being challenged, removed from school library shelves.
她告诉我，在她工作的几十年里，她以前从未见过像今年秋天这样的情况，只是学校图书馆书架上受到质疑的书籍数量。
Many books about LGBTQ people, she says those have been contested for years, but more recently, Toni Morrison, Dr. Ibram X.
她说，许多关于 LGBTQ 人群的书籍多年来一直备受争议，但最近，托尼·莫里森 (Toni Morrison)、伊布拉姆·X 博士 (Dr. Ibram X.
Kendi, The Hate U Give, a novel about the aftermath of police brutality.
Kendi，《你给予的仇恨》，一本关于警察暴行后果的小说。
And in Texas there was a mother who halted an author presentation by Jerry Craft by claiming falsely that New Kid represented critical race theory.
在德克萨斯州，有一位母亲阻止了杰瑞·克拉夫特（Jerry Craft）的作者演讲，错误地声称《新孩子》代表了批判性的种族理论。
New Kid, the, like, comic book, the graphic novel?
新来的，漫画书，图画小说？
Yes, New Kid.
是的，新来的。
Chana Joffe-Walt New Kid is a book my children read.
Chana Joffe-Walt New Kid 是我的孩子们读过的一本书。
It's about a 12-year-old Black boy who goes to a new school.
这是关于一个 12 岁的黑人男孩去一所新学校的故事。
Jerry was scheduled to give an author presentation to the kids in Katy, Texas.
杰里计划向德克萨斯州凯蒂的孩子们进行作家演讲。
And they lined up this big event.
他们安排了这个大活动。
All the kids were anticipating meeting Jerry via Zoom.
所有的孩子都期待着通过 Zoom 见到杰瑞。
And one mother stopped the whole thing by claiming that it was critical race theory.
一位母亲声称这是批判性的种族理论，从而阻止了整个事情。
Wow.
哇。
Jerry Craft has been invited to speak to thousands of schools over the years to do author presentations like the one in Katy, Texas, because New Kid was widely acclaimed.
多年来，杰里·克拉夫特（Jerry Craft）曾受邀到数千所学校演讲，进行作家演讲，就像在德克萨斯州凯蒂举行的那样，因为《新孩子》广受好评。
It won a ton of awards.
它赢得了很多奖项。
It was a number one New York Times bestseller, translated into a dozen languages.
它是《纽约时报》畅销书第一名，被翻译成十几种语言。
New Kid is a semi-autobiographical graphic novel about a boy, Jordan, who wants to be an artist and go to art school.
《新来的》是一部半自传体图画小说，讲述了一个男孩乔丹的故事，他想成为一名艺术家并进入艺术学校。
But his parents put him in a fancy private school.
但他的父母把他送进了一所高档私立学校。
Jordan is one of only a few Black kids.
乔丹是仅有的少数黑人孩子之一。
A lot of the kids are wealthy.
很多孩子都很有钱。
The campus is vast.
校园广阔。
And you watch Jordan, this funny, earnest kid, navigate a new environment.
你会看到乔丹，这个有趣、认真的孩子，在一个新的环境中航行。
There's culture shock.
有文化冲击。
There's new friendships.
有了新的友谊。
It's part fish-out-of-water story and part just kid in middle school figuring out crushes in the cafeteria and things like should he do sports or the musical.
这一部分是鱼离开水的故事，一部分是一个中学孩子在自助餐厅里搞清楚暗恋对象的故事，以及诸如他应该参加体育运动还是音乐剧之类的事情。
Jerry Craft told me when he put new kid out there, the response was amazing.
杰瑞·克拉夫特告诉我，当他把新孩子放在那里时，反应非常惊人。
Everything, it was all like a great big hug from the world.
一切，都像是来自世界的一个大大的拥抱。
People wrote him to say, my kid wants to be an artist now.
人们写信给他说，我的孩子现在想成为一名艺术家。
My kid loved your book.
我的孩子喜欢你的书。
Or--
或者——
Hey, you know, my kid has never been a reader before and he read your book three times.
嘿，你知道，我的孩子以前从来没有读书过，但他读了你的书三遍。
Like, that's what I'm used to.
就这样，我已经习惯了。
Right.
正确的。
So now it's like, hey, can you comment here in the BBC?
所以现在就像，嘿，你能在 BBC 发表评论吗？
I'm like, no. Like, what is this?
我想，不。比如，这是什么？
This is not his thing, controversy.
这不是他的事，争议。
Jerry was a kid who loved to draw, who became an adult who kept drawing.
杰瑞（Jerry）是一个喜欢画画的孩子，长大后仍然坚持画画。
He spends most of his time in a room by himself making pictures.
他大部分时间都在一个房间里独自画画。
When he published New Kid in 2019, Jerry had been writing comics for decades.
当杰瑞于 2019 年出版《新孩子》时，他已经创作漫画数十年了。
This was the book he'd always wanted to write, the book he wished he'd had as a kid, with a Black character who seemed just regular.
这是他一直想写的书，他希望自己小时候就能拥有这本书，书中的黑人角色看起来很平常。
Jerry says he remembers going to the library as a kid and it was always the general books and the Black books.
杰里说，他记得小时候去图书馆，总是看普通书和黑书。
The general books are "wants to live better." And our books are "just wants to live." You know, your books, "His father is king." Our books, "His father is gone." Lives in a magical kingdom, lives in the hood.
一般的书都是“想要活得更好”。我们的书是“只想活下去”。你知道，你的书上写着“他的父亲是国王”。我们的书，“他的父亲去世了。”生活在一个神奇的王国里，生活在引擎盖里。
All the books with Black protagonists were history or misery.
所有以黑人为主角的书都是历史或苦难。
No kid like me ever made it to the end of a book.
没有像我这样的孩子能读完一本书。
There was no dad.
没有爸爸。
There was nothing-- the kids always lived on the south side of somewhere that was just really horrible.
什么都没有——孩子们总是住在南边的某个地方，那里真的很可怕。
And it was gangs or slavery or civil rights or police brutality.
这是帮派、奴隶制、民权或警察暴行。
And I'm like, can I just see a kid who the biggest problem of the day is whether he wants to play Xbox or PlayStation?
我想，我能不能看看一个现在最大的问题是想玩 Xbox 还是 PlayStation 的孩子？
And that's why I do what I do.
这就是我做我所做的事情的原因。
I make those books that I wish I had.
我制作那些我希望拥有的书。
That's the thing about New Kid being banned.
这就是新孩子被禁的原因。
So many of the other Black authors with banned books are writing explicitly about racism or history, books about how slavery has shaped America, police brutality, how to be an anti-racist.
许多其他拥有禁书的黑人作家都在明确地写关于种族主义或历史的书，关于奴隶制如何塑造美国、警察暴行、如何成为反种族主义者的书籍。
But New Kid, this is not a history book.
但是新孩子，这不是一本历史书。
It's not about police violence or slavery or civil rights.
这与警察暴力、奴隶制或公民权利无关。
It's a story about finding your place in middle school.
这是一个关于在中学找到自己位置的故事。
There are racial slights in a sort of daily way.
种族歧视在日常生活中随处可见。
White classmates and teachers make assumptions about where Jordan's from, that he's a great athlete.
白人同学和老师对乔丹来自哪里做出假设，认为他是一名伟大的运动员。
They say ignorant things, try to touch a Black friend's hair.
他们说无知的话，试图触摸黑人朋友的头发。
Administrators continue to call a long-standing Black teacher "Coach," even though he's never coached anything.
管理人员继续称一位长期担任黑人教师为“教练”，尽管他从未执教过任何东西。
Jordan often finds this stuff funny.
乔丹经常觉得这件事很有趣。
He laughs about it with another Black classmate.
他和另一位黑人同学谈起这件事大笑起来。
Sometimes he finds it confusing or annoying, but it's not tragic.
有时他觉得这令人困惑或烦人，但这并不是悲剧。
These are just things that happen on the way, alongside lots of other experiences with his white classmates and teachers, including good experiences.
这些只是路上发生的事情，还有他与白人同学和老师的许多其他经历，包括美好的经历。
Honestly, the most dramatic thing that happens in this story is that Jordan loses his sketchbook.
老实说，这个故事中发生的最戏剧性的事情是乔丹丢失了他的素描本。
What is there to object to?
有什么可反对的呢？
When I talked to Jerry, I didn't know the specifics of the objections in Texas.
当我与杰里交谈时，我不知道德克萨斯州反对的具体情况。
And I kind of expected Jerry to fill me in, but he knew even less than me.
我有点期待杰瑞能告诉我答案，但他知道的甚至比我还少。
He read enough of one article to understand that a white parent had complained about his book, was calling it critical race theory, a term Jerry had to then Google.
他读了足够多的一篇文章，了解到一位白人家长抱怨他的书，称其为批判种族理论，杰瑞后来在谷歌上搜索了这个词。
And he closed the article without finishing it.
他没有读完这篇文章就结束了。
He had work to do.
他还有工作要做。
But friends and strangers kept messaging him.
但朋友和陌生人不断给他发消息。
How crazy, your book, banned.
太疯狂了，你的书被禁了。
So one person sent me the actual school board link.
所以有人给我发了实际的学校董事会链接。
I guess they filmed the school board?
我猜他们拍摄了学校董事会？
And I just refused to watch that because when I'm sitting for 16 hours a day drawing humorous stuff for kids, I have to protect my own brain and my own psyche because I don't want my next book, kids to be like, wow, Mr. Craft used to be funny.
我只是拒绝观看，因为当我每天坐 16 个小时为孩子们画幽默的东西时，我必须保护自己的大脑和自己的心灵，因为我不希望我的下一本书，孩子们会说，哇，克拉夫特先生曾经很有趣。
Now he's so depressing.
现在他真是郁闷极了。
So I have to be in a really good mental space for that.
所以我必须处于一个非常好的心理空间才能做到这一点。
So, you knew.
所以，你知道。
I mean, it sounds like you knew that that was something that you weren't going to want to watch.
我的意思是，听起来你知道那是你不想看的东西。
Yeah.
是的。
I did not want to go down that rabbit hole.
我不想掉进那个兔子洞。
What did you imagine was down that rabbit hole that was scary to you?
你想象那个让你害怕的兔子洞里有什么？
The complaint that I saw was that I'm teaching kids critical race theory.
我看到的抱怨是我正在教孩子们批判种族理论。
So the college course that mentions things such as institutional racism and all these really heavy, deep things that they are studying and picking apart in college, I was now breaking that down for fourth and fifth graders apparently.
因此，大学课程提到了诸如制度性种族主义之类的事情，以及他们在大学里学习和分解的所有这些非常沉重、深刻的事情，我现在显然正在为四年级和五年级的学生进行分解。
So--
所以——
[RING] Chana Joffe-Walt Ooh, sorry.
[铃声]查娜·乔夫-沃尔特 噢，抱歉。
That's not supposed to happen.
这是不应该发生的。
Oh, is that for me?
哦，那是给我的吗？
Is that Katy, Texas?
那是德克萨斯州的凯蒂吗？
[LAUGHTER] Like, we wanted equal opportunity.
[笑声] 就像，我们想要平等的机会。
Yeah, they wanted to know what you're talking about.
是的，他们想知道你在说什么。
That's how I do my interviews.
我就是这样进行采访的。
I just, like, in the middle, I get a call from the opposing side, and then the two of you duke it out.
我只是，就像，在中间，我接到对方的电话，然后你们两个就决斗了。
Right, there you go.
好的，就这样吧。
Chana Joffe-Walt I did not stage a call with the mom who complained about Jerry Craft's books, but I did talk to her.
查娜·乔夫-沃尔特（Chana Joffe-Walt） 我没有给抱怨杰里·克拉夫特的书的妈妈打电话，但我确实和她谈过。
And I watched her testimony at the Katy school board meetings, the ones Jerry Kraft would not watch.
我在凯蒂学校董事会会议上观看了她的证词，而杰里·卡夫特不会看。
Her name is Bonnie Anderson.
她的名字叫邦妮·安德森。
She has three kids in the schools.
她有三个孩子在学校。
She's very involved in local school politics.
她积极参与当地学校的政治活动。
She's part of a lawsuit against the school district's mask mandate.
她参与了针对学区戴口罩规定的诉讼。
And she ran for school board last spring but lost.
去年春天，她竞选学校董事会成员，但失败了。
Bonnie told me she first encountered Jerry's book when she got a flyer in her kid's backpack announcing the author visit.
邦妮告诉我，她第一次看到杰里的书是在她孩子的背包里收到一张宣布作者来访的传单。
So she got the books, New Kid, and the follow-up book, Class Act, and read them both herself.
所以她买了《新孩子》和后续的《阶级行为》两本书，并自己读了这两本书。
I don't know if you've-- have you read these books?
我不知道你是否读过这些书？
Yeah, my kids read them.
是的，我的孩子们读过它们。
Bonnie Anderson OK, OK.
邦妮·安德森 好吧，好吧。
[CHUCKLE] I don't even know where to start.
[笑]我什至不知道从哪里开始。
So the first thing that I noticed is all of the microaggressions that the author is depicting.
所以我注意到的第一件事就是作者所描绘的所有微侵犯。
Microaggressions, meaning the everyday thoughtless stuff white people in the book say around Black kids.
微侵犯，指的是书中白人每天对黑人孩子说的轻率的话。
Bonnie worried how reading those depictions might make white kids feel.
邦妮担心读到这些描述会给白人孩子带来什么感受。
The district told me there was another parent too, who apparently filed a complaint that New Kid includes vulgarity.
该学区告诉我，还有另一位家长，他显然提出了投诉，称“新孩子”包含粗俗内容。
But they would not provide that person's name.
但他们不愿提供该人的姓名。
Bonnie, though, was very public.
不过，邦妮却非常公开。
She cared enough about this to create a petition demanding the district cancel Jerry Craft's event.
她对此非常关心，因此发起了一份请愿书，要求学区取消杰瑞·克拉夫特的活动。
It got 400 signatures.
它得到了 400 个签名。
To Bonnie, the book has a clear agenda.
对于邦妮来说，这本书有一个明确的议程。
Jerry set out to convince people systemic racism is real and show how privileged and awful white people are.
杰瑞着手让人们相信系统性种族主义是真实的，并展示白人是多么的特权和可怕。
He's dressing it up with funny or dramatic moments that, to her, seem totally over the top, like the scene where the dad gets pulled over by the cops and is super nervous.
他用有趣或戏剧性的时刻来装饰它，对她来说，这似乎完全是过分的，比如父亲被警察拦下并且非常紧张的场景。
She says, you really think that happens?
她说，你真的认为会发生这种事吗？
Or the white mom who worries her kid's Black friend might take offense if she serves watermelon for a snack.
或者，担心孩子的黑人朋友如果把西瓜当零食，可能会生气的白人妈妈。
Come on, she says.
来吧，她说。
A lot of our conversation was Bonnie questioning parts of the book, and me saying, I think that's based on Jerry's own life.
我们的很多谈话都是邦妮对书中的部分内容提出质疑，我说，我认为这是基于杰瑞自己的生活。
You really think that Jerry Craft went to an all-Jewish school, which he did, and you really think he was given KFC gift certificates?
你真的认为杰里·克拉夫特就读于一所全犹太学校，他也确实这么做了，而且你真的认为他得到了肯德基礼券？
Because he says these are things he went through.
因为他说这些都是他经历过的事情。
He did.
他做到了。
He went to a mostly Jewish school.
他就读于一所主要是犹太人的学校。
He went to Fieldston, which is not a Jewish school.
他去了菲尔德斯顿，那不是一所犹太学校。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Chana Joffe-Walt But you're saying you don't believe that that actually happened to him.
Chana Joffe-Walt 但你是说你不相信这真的发生在他身上。
Regardless, let's just pretend that all the things he wrote about, being called an Oreo, all those things actually happened.
无论如何，让我们假装他写的所有事情，被称为奥利奥，所有这些事情都真实发生过。
Regardless, let's just pretend for a second that all those things happened.
无论如何，让我们假装所有这些事情都发生过。
Or let's take his word, all those things happened.
或者让我们相信他的话，所有这些事情都发生了。
It doesn't matter.
没关系。
Because you don't harm future generations of children because you went through a bad experience.
因为你不会因为经历过不好的经历而伤害子孙后代。
You don't poison the minds of my children even if it happened.
即使发生了，你也不会毒害我孩子们的心灵。
You do not poison the minds of other kids and make them feel like they have to make concessions for being white.
你不会毒害其他孩子的思想，让他们觉得必须为自己是白人而做出让步。
This is an idea that is repeated in a lot of the efforts to ban books.
这是在许多禁书努力中重复出现的想法。
The idea that these books will psychologically harm children, usually white children.
人们认为这些书会对儿童（通常是白人儿童）造成心理伤害。
When you say it poisons the minds of your kids, what's the thing that you're worried is going to happen to your kids reading these books?
当你说它毒害你孩子的思想时，你担心你的孩子读这些书会发生什么事情？
So these books teach children the preordained conclusion that white children have wealth, status, and race privilege, while children of color must suffer the racist ignorance of these privileged families.
所以这些书教会了孩子们一个注定的结论：白人孩子拥有财富、地位和种族特权，而有色人种的孩子则必须承受这些特权家庭的种族主义无知。
You remember from the books that the white mom does nothing but play yoga all day and the white boy feels neglected.
你从书中记得，白人妈妈整天除了打瑜伽什么都不做，而白人男孩则感到被忽视。
And they live in a mansion and they drive in the Range Rover.
他们住在豪宅里，开路虎揽胜。
It's a Mercedes, but sure.
这是一辆梅赛德斯，但可以肯定。
For Bonnie, these characterizations would be damaging to her kids if they read the books, which they haven't.
对于邦妮来说，如果她的孩子读了这些书，这些描述会对他们造成伤害，但他们没有读。
New Kid is a book that is entirely focused on the perspective of a Black boy, the things he sees and experiences.
《新孩子》是一本完全聚焦于黑人男孩的视角以及他所看到和经历的事情的书。
There are white characters.
有白色字符。
Some of them are mean.
其中有些人很刻薄。
Some of them are Jordan's best friends.
其中一些是乔丹最好的朋友。
One of them talks to everyone through sock puppets.
其中一位通过袜子木偶与大家交谈。
But they're peripheral.
但它们是外围的。
The story is about Jordan.
这个故事是关于乔丹的。
So I would assume, like with any well-told story, kids reading this book would identify with the main character, since he's the protagonist of the story.
所以我认为，就像任何讲述得很好的故事一样，阅读这本书的孩子会认同主角，因为他是故事的主角。
I want to say something here I feel obliged to say, but also feels a little embarrassing for all of us that I have to say it at all.
我想说一些我觉得有必要说的话，但又觉得我不得不说这件事对我们所有人来说都有点尴尬。
This book, Jerry Craft's book, New Kid, is not critical race theory.
这本书，杰里·克拉夫特的书《新来的》，并不是批判种族理论。
Jerry Craft did not create a fictional 12-year-old Black boy, Jordan Banks, to promote a complex legal theory about systemic racism.
杰里·克拉夫特（Jerry Craft）创造一个虚构的 12 岁黑人男孩乔丹·班克斯（Jordan Banks）并不是为了宣扬关于系统性种族主义的复杂法律理论。
And although it is a work of fiction, most of what Bonnie objects to in these books did actually happen.
尽管这是一部虚构作品，但邦妮在这些书中反对的大部分内容确实发生过。
How much of this is just your direct life experience?
其中有多少只是你直接的生活经历？
There's a lot of it.
有很多。
I was the light-skinned African-American kid, born in Harlem, grew up in Washington Heights.
我是一个浅肤色的非裔美国孩子，出生在哈莱姆区，在华盛顿高地长大。
The house where Jordan Banks lives is a brownstone.
乔丹·班克斯 (Jordan Banks) 居住的房子是一座褐砂石建筑。
That is literally the house where I was born and spent the first 25 years of my life.
这确实是我出生并度过人生前 25 年的房子。
My mom and dad did not want me to go to art school.
我的妈妈和爸爸不想让我去艺术学校。
But you, like Jordan Banks, wanted to go to art school?
但你和乔丹·班克斯一样，想去艺术学校吗？
I wanted to go to art school.
我想去艺术学校。
So they sent me to a school in Riverdale.
所以他们把我送到里弗代尔的一所学校。
And here, they send Jordan Banks to a school called Riverdale Academy Day School, or RAD, for short.
在这里，他们将乔丹·班克斯送到一所名为 Riverdale Academy Day School（简称 RAD）的学校。
Jordan Banks felt out of place.
乔丹·班克斯感觉格格不入。
Jerry Craft felt out of place.
杰瑞·克拉夫特感觉格格不入。
Jordan Banks' classmates all inexplicably wore pink but called it salmon.
乔丹·班克斯的同学莫名其妙地都穿粉色衣服，却称之为鲑鱼色。
Same with Jerry Craft.
杰瑞·克拉夫特也一样。
The whole Vineyard Vines thing, that was like the unofficial uniform.
整个葡萄园藤蔓的事情，就像非正式的制服。
So I changed it, in New Kid, to Grapevine Groves.
所以我在《新孩子》中把它改成了《葡萄树丛》。
It's like, wow, you kids sure wear a lot of pink here.
就像，哇，你们这些孩子在这里肯定穿很多粉红色的衣服。
It's like, no, it's not pink.
就像，不，它不是粉红色的。
It's salmon.
这是鲑鱼。
And all the things Jordan Banks observes or experiences, a white mom who worries about serving watermelon, a nerve-wracking interaction with a cop, white classmates touching your hair, assuming you like basketball, they happened to Jerry or Jerry's kids.
乔丹·班克斯观察或经历的所有事情，一个担心上西瓜的白人妈妈，与警察令人紧张的互动，白人同学摸你的头发，假设你喜欢篮球，这些都发生在杰瑞或杰瑞的孩子身上。
Being called the wrong name.
被叫错名字。
You know, hey, Deandre.
你知道，嘿，德安德烈。
I'm not Deandre.
我不是德安德烈。
I'm Drew.
我是德鲁。
Like that's the other one?
好像是另一件？
Jerry Craft Uh-huh.
杰瑞·克拉夫特 嗯嗯。
Right, that's the other one.
对了，这是另一件。
That's what's so interesting to me about this book in particular being kind of drawn into this CRT battle that's supposedly about history.
这就是这本书对我来说如此有趣的地方，特别是它被卷入了这场据称与历史有关的 CRT 之战。
But your book is not a history book.
但你的书不是历史书。
This is literally just you writing down the story of your life.
这实际上只是你写下你的生活故事。
Right, yeah.
对，是的。
It literally is based on what I actually see.
它实际上是基于我实际看到的。
There's nothing that I haven't lived myself.
没有什么是我自己没有经历过的。
With one exception, those KFC gift certificates?
除了一个例外，那些肯德基礼券？
Jerry says he made that up.
杰瑞说那是他编的。
One other thing Jerry pointed out that really happened to him, the last chapter of New Kid, it's called "The Farce Awakens." It's when Jordan loses his sketchbook, the one he carries everywhere.
杰瑞指出，另一件事确实发生在他身上，即《新来的》的最后一章，叫做“闹剧觉醒”。就在那时，乔丹丢失了他随身携带的素描本。
He's super stressed because it has all his thoughts and drawings from that year.
他压力很大，因为里面有他当年的所有想法和画作。
It's sort of like a visual diary.
这有点像视觉日记。
It turns out his teacher, Ms. Rawle, is holding his sketchbook when he comes into the classroom.
原来，当他走进教室时，他的老师罗尔女士拿着他的素描本。
She's read it.
她读过。
And she reads it, and she's like, Jordan, why are you so angry?
她读完后说，乔丹，你为什么这么生气？
It's like, I'm not angry.
就好像，我没有生气。
And the teacher's upset about what's in the notebook.
老师对笔记本上的内容感到不安。
Right, because he will complain about being called the wrong name or just different things like that, or people touching his friend's hair.
是的，因为他会抱怨被叫错名字或者类似的不同的事情，或者人们触摸他朋友的头发。
And so, she's like, Jordan, you're special.
所以，她说，乔丹，你很特别。
You're here.
你在这里。
And he's like, yeah, but Ms. Rawle, would you take a job at a school in my neighborhood so you can be special?
他说，是的，但是罗尔女士，你愿意在我附近的一所学校找一份工作，这样你就可以变得特别吗？
And she kind of gets on him.
她有点讨厌他。
He's like, so, let me get this right.
他说，所以，让我把这件事做对。
It's OK for this stuff to happen to me.
这种事发生在我身上没关系。
It's just not OK for me to talk about it.
我只是不适合谈论它。
And that sums up this whole thing that's going on now.
这总结了现在正在发生的整件事。
Oh.
哦。
Jerry Craft Right?
杰瑞·克拉夫特对吗？
There are things based on my life and based on my kids' lives.
有些事情基于我的生活和我孩子的生活。
Does it feel like a grown-up version of what happens to Jerry Banks in your novel?
这感觉像你小说中杰瑞·班克斯发生的事情的成人版吗？
I love how you said Jerry Banks because that is right.
我喜欢你说的杰瑞·班克斯，因为那是对的。
Jordan, Jordan Banks.
乔丹，乔丹·班克斯。
Jerry Craft No, you're right.
杰瑞·克拉夫特 不，你是对的。
It is Jerry Banks.
这是杰里·班克斯。
We are one and the same.
我们是一体的。
No, it's exactly the same.
不，完全一样。
Yeah.
是的。
Jerry Craft Ms. Rawle found Jordan's sketchbook and said that it's a polemic and that it's angry.
杰里·克拉夫特·罗尔女士找到了乔丹的素描本，并说这是一场争论，而且很愤怒。
And this woman found my book and says it's a polemic and it's angry, and, yeah.
这个女人找到了我的书，说这是一场争论，而且很愤怒，是的。
I went back to that last chapter recently.
我最近又回到了最后一章。
And what stood out reading it this time, knowing it had been banned, is that even 12-year-old Jordan Banks knows that his account of his own life will not be acceptable to his white teacher and is better kept in the safety of his journal.
这次读到这本书时最引人注目的是，即使是 12 岁的乔丹·班克斯 (Jordan Banks) 也知道，他对自己生活的描述不会被他的白人老师接受，最好还是保存在他的日记中。
He knows his teacher won't be able to read it without feeling personally attacked.
他知道他的老师读完这本书后不会感到受到人身攻击。
He knows that what has happened to him will not matter as much as how it makes her feel to read about it.
他知道发生在他身上的事情并不重要，重要的是她读到这件事的感受。
He already knows that even if it's all real, she'd rather he keep it to himself.
他已经知道，即使这一切都是真的，她也宁愿他保守秘密。
Eight states have recently passed legislation restricting the teaching of racism and bias in public schools.
八个州最近通过了立法，限制公立学校种族主义和偏见的教学。
Texas is one of them.
德克萨斯州就是其中之一。
Nearly 20 more states have introduced or plan to introduce similar legislation.
还有近 20 个州已经出台或计划出台类似立法。
These laws almost never list specific books you can't teach.
这些法律几乎从不列出你不能教的特定书籍。
They talk about feelings.
他们谈论感情。
They prohibit teaching any lessons that might make students feel, quote, "discomfort, guilt, or anguish" because of their race.
他们禁止教授任何可能让学生因为种族而感到“不适、内疚或痛苦”的课程。
After Bonnie's petition and the complaint about New Kid including vulgarity, the district responded, launched an investigation, and said it was using the new Texas law to evaluate the book.
在邦妮请愿和对《新孩子》包括粗俗内容的投诉之后，该学区做出了回应，展开了调查，并表示正在使用新的德克萨斯州法律来评估这本书。
It also pulled Jerry's books from the library and called off his author visit.
它还从图书馆撤下了杰瑞的书籍，并取消了他的作者访问。
In Pennsylvania, a group of parents got the school board to ban a list of diverse books, including a children's book about Rosa Parks.
在宾夕法尼亚州，一群家长要求学校董事会禁止一系列不同的书籍，其中包括一本关于罗莎·帕克斯的儿童读物。
They worried the books could be used to make white children feel guilty.
他们担心这些书可能会被用来让白人孩子感到内疚。
A group of white moms in Tennessee have demanded a book about Martin Luther King, Jr. and the March on Washington be removed from the curriculum.
田纳西州的一群白人妈妈要求将一本有关马丁·路德·金和华盛顿游行的书从课程中删除。
They also objected to a chapter book called The Story of Ruby Bridges because it makes it seem like white people are bad.
他们还反对一本名为《鲁比·布里奇斯的故事》的章节书，因为它让人觉得白人很坏。
These are parents who claim reading books about Black experiences or Black history or just a Black kid going to middle school will harm their children.
这些父母声称阅读有关黑人经历或黑人历史的书籍或只是一个上中学的黑人孩子会伤害他们的孩子。
And their desire to protect their kids from discomfort is now enshrined in the law.
他们保护孩子免受不适的愿望现已写入法律。
The investigation into New Kid lasted 10 days, at which point, the district announced their findings, no inappropriate material.
对New Kid的调查持续了10天，此时，学区公布了调查结果，没有发现不当材料。
Children would be allowed to read this book in Katy, Texas.
德克萨斯州凯蒂的孩子们将被允许阅读这本书。
And Jerry's event with the kids was rescheduled.
杰瑞和孩子们的活动也被重新安排了。
It went fine.
一切顺利。
Kids asked the same questions they always do.
孩子们总是问同样的问题。
What inspired you?
是什么启发了你？
Is there going to be a movie?
会有电影吗？
But that same day, the Katy school board had a meeting.
但就在同一天，凯蒂学校董事会召开了会议。
Parents showed up to complain that the event was allowed to go forward, that critical race theory was infiltrating the schools.
家长们到场抱怨说，该活动被允许继续进行，批评的种族理论正在渗透到学校。
And they demanded a full audit of the whole library, which, just recently, they won.
他们要求对整个图书馆进行全面审计，最近他们赢了。
There was one mom who got up to defend New Kid and to say what the book means to her family.
有一位妈妈站起来为《新孩子》辩护，并讲述了这本书对她的家人意味着什么。
I've never spoken before, so this is about the Jerry Craft book.
我以前从未说过话，所以这是关于杰瑞·克拉夫特的书。
I'm sure you all know about that.
我相信你们都知道这一点。
Her name is Courtney.
她的名字叫考特尼。
She's a Black woman standing before a line of board members who all appear to be white.
她是一名黑人女性，站在一排看起来都是白人的董事会成员面前。
Here's what she had to say.
这是她不得不说的。
Even though the books will be placed on shelves again, I am concerned to what led to them being removed.
尽管这些书将再次上架，但我担心是什么导致它们被下架。
Can you count on your hand and tell me how many people of color you've ever had at your home?
你能用手数一数，告诉我你家里曾经有过多少有色人种吗？
If you're having trouble or just can't remember a day or time, please tell me, what do you possibly know about what's wrong with a book you've never lived?
如果你遇到困难或者只是记不起某一天或某个时间，请告诉我，对于一本你从未读过的书的问题，你可能知道什么？
Have you ever went to work for two years and have someone call you Britney every morning?
你是否曾经工作了两年，每天早上都有人叫你布兰妮？
I have because my name is Courtney.
我有，因为我的名字叫考特尼。
You know the correlation if you've read the book, New Kid, by Jerry Craft.
如果您读过杰瑞·克拉夫特（Jerry Craft）的《新来的》一书，您就会知道其中的相关性。
Did you read it?
你读过吗？
Have you ever served this great country in the Washington, DC, inauguration of 2000, Korea, 2001, Iraq, 2003, Afghanistan, 2015, Fort Hood, 2016, only to have your 15-year-old twin son call you in the middle of a workday saying he doesn't like his Paytoh high school, and learned that the doctor visits of anxiety and stomach pains for the last 12 months were only due to a white teen calling your son the N-word for the last year of 2018?
您是否曾在华盛顿特区、2000 年就职典礼、韩国、2001 年、伊拉克、2003 年、阿富汗、2015 年、胡德堡、2016 年为这个伟大的国家服务，结果却让您 15 岁的双胞胎儿子在工作日中打电话给您，说他不喜欢他的 Paytoh 高中，并得知过去 12 个月因焦虑和胃痛而去看医生只是因为一个白人青少年在 2018 年最后一年称你的儿子为“N”字？
Well, I have.
嗯，我有。
If you read the book, you'd understand the correlation, once again, of the Oreo joke.
如果你读过这本书，你就会再次理解奥利奥笑话的相关性。
How dare you, 444 signatures, remove what little representation my culture has to show its reality and literature form on the modern day shelves.
444个签名，你们怎么敢把我的文化在现代书架上展示其现实和文学形式的那一点点代表性去掉。
I don't applaud you for placing the books back on the shelves.
我不赞成你把书放回书架上。
My only hope is that you not allow the unknown and false narratives to sway your judgment on needed representation of us all.
我唯一的希望是，您不要让未知和错误的叙述影响您对我们所有人所需代表的判断。
Representation does matter.
代表性确实很重要。
Please don't thank me for my service.
请不要感谢我的服务。
I do it because I love it.
我这样做是因为我喜欢它。
Many friends and battles have died and bled for it.
许多朋友和战斗都为此而死、流血。
As for Katy ISD, do what you should and need to do to uphold the standards of fairness, justice, and representation for this school district so I can thank you for yours.
至于凯蒂独立学区，请做你应该做和需要做的事情，以维护这个学区的公平、正义和代表性标准，这样我就可以感谢你的努力。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Thank you.
谢谢。
The next speaker is Emily Lewis.
下一位发言者是艾米丽·刘易斯。
Mr. President, you seem to have a problem with our country.
总统先生，您似乎对我们的国家有问题。
In so many corners of the country right now, parents, usually white parents, are showing up to meetings just like this to express their fear, to say they don't want their children harmed or feeling uncomfortable.
现在在这个国家的许多角落，父母，通常是白人父母，正在参加这样的会议来表达他们的恐惧，并表示他们不希望自己的孩子受到伤害或感到不舒服。
Courtney is talking about harm that is already happening.
考特尼正在谈论已经发生的伤害。
And Jerry Craft is already uncomfortable.
而杰瑞·克拉夫特已经感到不舒服了。
He wrote a whole book about feeling uncomfortable.
他写了一整本书关于感觉不舒服。
He told me you just learn to deal with it.
他告诉我你只要学会处理它。
He never had any laws protecting him from discomfort or school boards worried about his discomfort.
他从来没有任何法律保护他免受不适，也没有学校董事会担心他的不适。
What he had was the ability to write it down, to talk about it.
他所拥有的是把它写下来、谈论它的能力。
Chana Joffe-Walt is one of the producers of our show.
查纳·乔夫·沃尔特 (Chana Joffe-Walt) 是我们节目的制片人之一。
Credits Emanuele Berry Our program was produced today by Robyn Semien and me, Emanuele Berry, and edited by Chana Jaffe-Walt.
致谢 Emanuele Berry 今天我们的节目由 Robyn Semien 和我 Emanuele Berry 制作，并由 Chana Jaffe-Walt 编辑。
The people who put together today's show include Bim Adewunmi, Susan Burton, Ben Calhoun, Zoe Chace, Dana Chivvis, Sean Cole, Michael Comite, Andrea López Cruzado, Damian Graef, Seth Lind, Mary Marge Locker, Tobin Low, Lina Misitzis, Michelle Navarro, Stowe Nelson, Katherine Rae Mondo, Alix Spiegel, Laura Starcheski, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, Julie Whitaker, Chloee Weiner, and Diane Wu.
今天节目的制作人包括 Bim Adewunmi、Susan Burton、Ben Calhoun、Zoe Chace、Dana Chivvis、Sean Cole、Michael Comite、Andrea López Cruzado、Damian Graef、Seth Lind、Mary Marge Locker、Tobin Low、Lina Misitzis、Michelle Navarro、Stowe Nelson、Katherine Rae Mondo、Alix Spiegel、Laura Starcheski、Christopher斯维塔拉、马特·蒂尔尼、朱莉·惠特克、克洛伊·韦纳和黛安·吴。
Our managing editor is Sarah Abdurrahman, and our senior editor is David Kestenbaum.
我们的总编辑是 Sarah Abdurrahman，我们的高级编辑是 David Kestenbaum。
Special thanks today to New Leonard Media of Traverse City, Mark L.
今天特别感谢特拉弗斯城的新伦纳德媒体 Mark L.
Wilson, Nikole Hannah Jones, Orlando Dial, Eve Ewing, Rob Kerr, Sophia Hassen, Seven Forsen, Andrea-Grace Makuna, Damilola Awofisayo, Jewell Coulter, Ami Chum, Michele Togbe, and Gianna Maltbie.
威尔逊、尼科尔·汉娜·琼斯、奥兰多·戴尔、伊芙·尤因、罗布·科尔、索菲亚·哈森、七·福森、安德烈·格蕾丝·马库纳、达米洛拉·阿沃菲萨约、朱厄尔·库尔特、阿米·查姆、米歇尔·托贝和吉安娜·马尔比。
Our website, ThisAmericanLife.org, where you can stream our archive of over 750 episodes absolutely free.
我们的网站 ThisAmericanLife.org，您可以在其中完全免费地观看我们的 750 多集档案。
Again, ThisAmericanLife.org.
再次，ThisAmericanLife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our boss, Ira Glass.
一如既往地感谢我们的老板艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass)。
You know, he's instituted this new rule in the office.
你知道，他在办公室制定了这条新规则。
He gets to take one bite of anyone's lunch.
他可以吃任何人的午餐。
And when I told him that was insane, he got pretty upset.
当我告诉他这很疯狂时，他非常沮丧。
I don't understand why that's so difficult to just, like, hand it over to me.
我不明白为什么把它交给我这么困难。
I'm Emanuele Berry.
我是埃马努埃莱·贝里。
Ira Glass will be back next week with more stories of This American Life.
艾拉·格拉斯将于下周回归，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。