756: But I Did Everything Right - This American Life

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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #756 | December 10, 2021 756: But I Did Everything Right Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.

00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 756 集 | 2021 年 12 月 10 日 756：但我一切都做对了 注意：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。

If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.

如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。

Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.

文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。

Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.

请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。

Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.

序言：序言 来自 WBEZ 芝加哥的 Ira Glass，这就是美国生活。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Example number one.

例子一。

[BELL RINGS]

[铃声响起]

When she was 19, Lenore had a job selling tickets at a haunted mansion tourist attraction near Orlando, Florida.

19 岁时，Lenore 找到了一份在佛罗里达州奥兰多附近的鬼屋旅游景点售票的工作。

And one day she found in a stairwell a wallet someone dropped-- leather, she says, with a green rubber band, tons of cash inside, like a vacationer brings on a big trip.

有一天，她在楼梯间发现了一个有人掉在地上的钱包——她说是皮革的，还有一根绿色橡皮筋，里面有大量现金，就像一个度假者带着去一次长途旅行一样。

It seemed obvious what to do next.

接下来该做什么似乎是显而易见的。

She should figure out how to give it back.

她应该想办法把它还给她。

But two of the guys she worked with were like, let's not.

但与她共事的两个人却说，我们还是不要这样吧。

Let's keep the money.

我们把钱留着吧。

And if they come back looking for it, we can say we don't have it.

如果他们回来寻找它，我们可以说我们没有。

We didn't find it.

我们没有找到。

And they'll never know.

他们永远不会知道。

And I said, no, we have to return it.

我说，不，我们必须归还它。

And they start telling me how ridiculous I'm being, and I'm such a goody two-shoes, and why am I like this?

他们开始告诉我我是多么可笑，我是一个很好的两鞋，为什么我会这样？

Why?

为什么？

Who knows?

谁知道？

But the one time that she tried shoplifting when she was 10 on a dare, she couldn't stand it, and returned the pack of gum and apologized.

但有一次她十岁的时候尝试入店行窃，她实在受不了，把一包口香糖退还给她并道歉。

Lenore was also excited at the idea that she could be a hero, that the guy on the ID in the wallet would come in--

莱诺尔也很兴奋，因为她可以成为英雄，钱包里身份证上的那个人会进来——

And be like, excuse me.

就像，对不起。

Have you seen my wallet?

你看到我的钱包了吗？

And I'd say, Here, it is.

我会说，就是这样。

And he'd be like, you're amazing!

他会说，你太棒了！

You saved the whole family's vacation.

你拯救了全家人的假期。

And he and his wife and kids would all cheer.

他和他的妻子和孩子都会欢呼。

And I'd bow and say thank you, and we'd hug.

我会鞠躬说谢谢，然后我们拥抱。

Remember, she's 19.

请记住，她才19岁。

So she tucks the wallet safely in her cash register drawer.

于是她把钱包安全地塞进收银机抽屉里。

Sure enough, a few hours later, the guy in the ID shows up.

果然，几个小时后，身份证上的那个人就出现了。

She very triumphantly pulls it out of the drawer.

她非常得意地把它从抽屉里拿出来。

And I said, here it is.

我说，就在这里。

And he grabs it out of my hands.

他从我手中夺走了它。

And he starts rifling through it.

他开始翻阅它。

And he looks through it and he says, some of the money is missing.

他仔细查看后说，有些钱不见了。

And I just thought, no. No, I've had it the whole time.

我只是想，不。不，我一直都这样。

And he said, No, some of the money is missing.

他说，不，有些钱不见了。

Did you take my money?

你拿了我的钱吗？

You took my money.

你拿走了我的钱。

This is not going how she pictured.

这并不像她想象的那样。

At all.

完全没有。

And my heart started racing.

我的心开始狂跳。

I started sweating.

我开始出汗。

Why does he think I did this?

他为什么认为我这么做了？

He doesn't know me.

他不认识我。

I would never do that.

我永远不会那样做。

He keeps berating her, insisting that she stole from him.

他不断斥责她，坚称她偷了他的东西。

It's awful.

太糟糕了。

Finally, the guy's wife tells him to just let it go.

最后，这家伙的妻子告诉他放手吧。

And he turns and heads for the door.

他转身朝门口走去。

And then as he was leaving, he said, you know, karma will find you.

然后当他离开时，他说，你知道，业力会找到你。

And I just stood there like, what happened?

我只是站在那里，想，发生了什么事？

I don't get it.

我不明白。

I did everything right.

我做的一切都是对的。

She did everything right, and it didn't work out as planned.

她一切都做对了，但事情并没有按计划进行。

Ladies and gentlemen, there are so many examples of this.

女士们先生们，这样的例子有很多。

When we're kids, it's one of the hardest lessons we learn.

当我们还是孩子的时候，这是我们学到的最难的课程之一。

[BELL RINGS] Example number two.

[铃声] 第二个例子。

So I am, I believe, 10 years old at the time.

我相信，当时我 10 岁。

Jordan Pisarcik was, in fact, a lucky 10-year-old, because his parents got tickets to "the" tennis event in the United States-- the US Open.

事实上，乔丹·皮萨尔西克 (Jordan Pisarcik) 是一个幸运的 10 岁孩子，因为他的父母获得了美国“最”网球赛事——美国公开赛的门票。

And he'd be seeing the number one player in the world.

他将会见到世界第一的球员。

Jordan had been to baseball games with his parents, but not much tennis.

乔丹曾和父母一起看过棒球比赛，但很少参加网球比赛。

We sat down in the seat, and I said, oh, maybe we'll be able to catch a ball if they hit it out.

我们坐在座位上，我说，哦，如果他们击出球，也许我们就能接住球。

It was Pete Sampras playing, who I was a big fan of.

演奏的是皮特·桑普拉斯，我是他的忠实粉丝。

And so my father, he said, oh, this is-- tennis is not like baseball.

所以我的父亲，他说，哦，这是——网球不像棒球。

You can't keep the ball the way you can if there's a home run or a foul ball.

如果出现本垒打或界外球，你就无法以你能做到的方式控球。

You have to throw it back as soon as you catch it.

你一抓住它就必须把它扔回去。

That's the rule in tennis.

这就是网球规则。

And what felt like 10 to 15 minutes after that, a ball came heading right toward us out of play.

感觉在那之后 10 到 15 分钟，一个球径直朝我们飞来，超出了比赛范围。

My dad, who was a very tall man-- he's 6' 5"-- jumped up and grabbed the ball with one hand and pulled it back down.

我的爸爸是一个很高的人——他有 6 英尺 5 英寸——跳起来，用一只手抓住球，然后把它拉回来。

But his dad didn't throw the ball back.

但他的父亲没有把球扔回去。

It made no sense.

这毫无意义。

He'd just taught him the rule.

他刚刚教了他规则。

So of course I started saying, Dad, you're supposed to throw it back.

所以我当然开始说，爸爸，你应该把它扔回去。

Because are you kind of a rules follower kid?

因为你是一个遵守规则的孩子吗？

I would say I am, yes.

我会说我是，是的。

And so I'm saying, Dad, you've got to throw it back.

所以我说，爸爸，你必须把它扔回去。

And he's kind of gesturing to me.

他对我做了个手势。

It's fine.

没关系。

It's OK.

没关系。

Don't worry about it.

别担心。

It's fine.

没关系。

He's kind of holding it tight to him.

他有点紧紧地抱着它。

And so finally, he kind of hands it over to me and says, here, just hold on to it.

最后，他把它交给我并说，在这里，坚持下去。

It's fine.

没关系。

And I said, no, you have to throw it back.

我说，不，你必须把它扔回去。

And as I was saying that, I tossed the ball out.

当我这么说的时候，我把球扔了出去。

The ball starts flying.

球开始飞行。

The ball lands squarely on the court while play is happening.

比赛进行时，球正好落在球场上。

And suddenly, of course, play immediately stops, and there's this audible gasp that rises from the crowd.

当然，突然之间，比赛立即停止，人群中响起可听见的喘息声。

It felt like all eyes were on me.

感觉好像所有的目光都集中在我身上。

So of course, I'm, like, melting into my seat.

所以当然，我就像融化在我的座位上一样。

Humiliated in front of all these people and Pete Sampras.

在所有这些人和皮特·桑普拉斯面前受到羞辱。

You try to follow the rule.

你尝试遵守规则。

You try to do what's right.

你尝试做正确的事。

And see where you end up?

看看你最终会去哪里？

[BELL RINGS] Example three.

[铃声] 示例三。

Morning, George.

早上好，乔治。

George Harrison Morning, all.

乔治·哈里森 早上好，大家好。

?] Hi, Ringo.

？]嗨，林戈。

Happy new year.

新年快乐。

Ringo Starr ?] Hi, George.

林戈·斯塔尔？]嗨，乔治。

?] Hi, Ringo.

？]嗨，林戈。

Happy new year.

新年快乐。

Ira Glass Apparently, this can also happen to you if you're one of the most successful, famous people in the world.

Ira Glass 显然，如果你是世界上最成功、最著名的人之一，这种情况也可能发生在你身上。

Are you watching that new Beatles documentary series that Peter Jackson just put out where we see them trying to create 14 songs in just two weeks for the concert and album Let It Be?

您是否正在观看彼得·杰克逊 (Peter Jackson) 刚刚推出的披头士乐队新纪录片系列，我们看到他们试图在短短两周内为音乐会和专辑《Let It Be》创作 14 首歌曲？

In episode 1, if you haven't seen this, George Harrison shows up at rehearsal on time every morning.

在第一集中，如果你还没有看到这一点，乔治·哈里森每天早上都会准时出现在排练中。

John Lennon, by the way, usually late.

顺便说一下，约翰·列侬经常迟到。

George Harrison has brought songs that he's written.

乔治哈里森带来了他写的歌曲。

The band is desperate for songs, and he has songs.

乐队迫切需要歌曲，而他有歌曲。

When he pulls them out, John and Paul do not seem enthusiastic.

当他把它们拉出来时，约翰和保罗似乎并不热情。

Is this is a Harrisong?

这是哈里森吗？

George Harrison There's no solo or anything complicated.

乔治哈里森没有独奏或任何复杂的东西。

George walks them through the chord changes.

乔治引导他们完成和弦的变化。

Oh, so the chords really are (SINGING) E to F-sharp minor to E to A.

哦，所以和弦确实是（歌唱）E 到 F 升小调到 E 到 A。

The song that he's teaching them is All Things Must Pass, which someday, after the Beatles break up, Harrison will release on his own, and it'll be a big hit.

他教他们的歌曲是《All Things Must Pass》，有一天，披头士乐队解散后，哈里森将独自发行这首歌，这将大受欢迎。

The album All Things Must Pass will be the number one album on the Billboard charts for seven weeks and receive near-universal critical praise.

专辑《All Things Must Pass》将在公告牌排行榜上连续七周排名第一，并获得几乎一致的好评。

Harrison has done everything right.

哈里森做的一切都是正确的。

But in this room, it's not enough.

但在这个房间里，这还不够。

He's completely overshadowed in these sessions by the kind of mind-blowing brilliance of Paul McCartney.

在这些会议中，他完全被保罗·麦卡特尼令人惊叹的才华所掩盖。

If you've only seen one clip of this new documentary, it's probably this one that's made the rounds on social media.

如果您只看过这部新纪录片的一个片段，那么社交媒体上流传的可能就是这个片段。

It starts with McCartney trying to invent a song out of nothing.

故事始于麦卡特尼试图从无到有地发明一首歌。

And so he starts strumming chords, stumbles into fragments of what's going to be the Beatles single "Get Back."

于是他开始弹奏和弦，偶然听到披头士乐队单曲《Get Back》的片段。

Really within minutes, it seems like he conjures from nothing first the melody, then the chorus, then the verses of the song that most of us grew up with.

真的在几分钟之内，他似乎从无到有地首先变出了旋律，然后是副歌，然后是我们大多数人长大的歌曲的歌词。

(SINGING) Get back, get back, get back to where you once belonged.

（唱）回来吧，回来吧，回到你曾经属于的地方。

By the end of the first episode of this TV documentary, Harrison has walked out of the rehearsals.

这部电视纪录片第一集结束时，哈里森走出了排练场。

And it's not clear that he's ever going to return.

目前还不清楚他是否会回来。

And who can blame him?

谁能责怪他呢？

He did it right.

他做对了。

And Paul and John still don't want his song.

保罗和约翰仍然不想要他的歌。

It doesn't end up on a Beatles album.

它最终没有出现在披头士乐队的专辑中。

This is one of the most supremely confusing things that happens to us as people.

这是我们人类身上发生过的最令人困惑的事情之一。

We do what's right.

我们做正确的事。

We do what's asked.

我们按照要求做。

We follow the rules.

我们遵守规则。

We look out for others.

我们关心其他人。

We act responsibly.

我们采取负责任的行动。

And it does not work out like we hoped.

但结果并没有像我们希望的那样。

Today on our program, we see people in all sorts of situations puzzling out that ancient riddle in their own lives-- including, by the way, later in the hour, parents and children who purchase an ant farm.

今天在我们的节目中，我们看到人们在各种各样的情况下解开自己生活中的这个古老的谜语——顺便说一下，包括稍后购买蚂蚁农场的父母和孩子。

Stay with us.

留在我们身边。

Act One, "Damned If You Don't." So the person in this first story, Rebecca Shrader, is somebody, as you'll hear, who's very committed to doing the right thing in all parts of her life.

第一幕“如果你不这样做就该死。”因此，第一个故事中的丽贝卡·施雷德（Rebecca Shrader），正如您所听到的，她在生活的各个方面都致力于做正确的事情。

She works as a sonographer.

她是一名超声检查师。

Ran one of the ultrasound machines at an OB clinic in Durham, North Carolina.

在北卡罗来纳州达勒姆的一家产科诊所运行一台超声波机器。

Started about a decade ago.

大约十年前开始。

She's great at her job, very diligent.

她的工作非常出色，非常勤奋。

And then, she saw something on her ultrasound screen and had to figure out what to do.

然后，她在超声波屏幕上看到了一些东西，必须弄清楚该怎么做。

By the way, throughout this story, we're going to use the words Rebecca typically uses around pregnancy and fetuses.

顺便说一句，在整个故事中，我们将使用丽贝卡通常在怀孕和胎儿方面使用的词语。

She says the words "babies," "mothers," "women," though of course, those aren't the words everybody uses.

她说“婴儿”、“母亲”、“女人”这些词，当然，这些词并不是每个人都使用的。

We found out about Rebecca from reporter Emma Green, who first talked to her a few years ago and has been reporting on religion and the way it intersects with politics for about a decade.

我们从记者艾玛·格林 (Emma Green) 那里了解到了丽贝卡 (Rebecca)，她几年前第一次与她交谈，大约十年来一直在报道宗教及其与政治的交叉方式。

Here's Emma.

这是艾玛。

It never really occurred to me that one of the perks of working in an obstetrics clinic is off-the-books access to an ultrasound machine.

我从来没有真正想到，在产科诊所工作的好处之一就是可以使用超声波机器。

But Rebecca told me that lots of pregnant women have daydreamed about this scenario.

但丽贝卡告诉我，很多孕妇都曾幻想过这种场景。

I've had so many patients who have come to me and said, oh, if I had an ultrasound machine, I'd scan myself all the time.

有很多病人来找我说，哦，如果我有一台超声波机，我就会一直扫描自己。

And you do, when you're pregnant and you're a sonographer.

当你怀孕并且你是一名超声检查师时，你就会这样做。

And so I would try to get into position, and try to straighten out and just scan myself standing up.

所以我会尝试就位，尝试挺直身子，站起来扫描自己。

What was that like?

那是什么样子的？

Rebecca Shrader They obviously weren't the best images, but we could at least see a heart rate.

Rebecca Shrader：它们显然不是最好的图像，但我们至少可以看到心率。

And as long as I saw a heart rate, I was like, OK, we're good.

只要我看到心率，我就想，好吧，我们很好。

This was back in 2012, during Rebecca's first pregnancy.

那是在 2012 年，丽贝卡第一次怀孕期间。

She was married, in her late 20s.

她二十多岁就结婚了。

She really wanted to be a mom.

她真的很想当妈妈。

And it made her less anxious to be able to see what was happening with her baby.

这让她不再那么急于看到自己的孩子发生了什么事。

Rebecca knew exactly what could go wrong in a pregnancy because the clinic where she worked at Duke specialized in complicated and risky pregnancies, things like chromosomal abnormalities or pregnancies with a high possibility of miscarriage or stillbirth.

丽贝卡清楚地知道怀孕期间可能会出现什么问题，因为她在杜克大学工作的诊所专门处理复杂且有风险的怀孕，例如染色体异常或流产或死产可能性很高的怀孕。

Just to warn listeners, issues like this are going to come up a lot in this story.

只是提醒听众，这样的问题在这个故事中会经常出现。

At work, she prided herself especially on taking really good 3D images with tons of detail.

在工作中，她尤其为自己能够拍摄出具有大量细节的优质 3D 图像而感到自豪。

And I would do it while the baby was moving.

我会在宝宝动的时候做。

And so it really helped women.

所以它确实对女性有帮助。

I could see them getting emotional watching it on the screen, knowing that maybe my baby might have some disability, but that's OK, because that gave them hope to see that I'm going to love this baby regardless of whether they have a disability or whether they maybe don't survive birth.

我可以看到他们在屏幕上观看时情绪激动，知道也许我的孩子可能有一些残疾，但这没关系，因为这让他们希望看到我会爱这个孩子，无论他们是否有残疾，或者他们是否可能无法出生。

Working in an OB clinic made sense for Rebecca.

对于丽贝卡来说，在产科诊所工作很有意义。

She's from a family of scientists and doctors.

她来自一个科学家和医生家庭。

And she always loved babies.

她一直很喜欢婴儿。

But her love for her work also came from her faith.

但她对工作的热爱也源于她的信仰。

She was a member of Summit, one of the most prominent Southern Baptist megachurches in the country.

她是美国最著名的美南浸信会大型教堂之一峰会的成员。

And she believes life begins at conception.

她相信生命始于受孕。

Every tiny heartbeat she saw on the ultrasound screen was a living human being.

她在超声波屏幕上看到的每一个微小的心跳都是一个活生生的人。

She thought abortion was morally wrong.

她认为堕胎在道德上是错误的。

She even spent her Thursday nights volunteering at a crisis pregnancy center.

她甚至在周四晚上在危机怀孕中心做志愿者。

These centers are the pro-life movement's answer to Planned Parenthood.

这些中心是反堕胎运动对计划生育协会的回应。

They're designed to discourage women from getting abortions.

它们的目的是阻止妇女堕胎。

And they do things like provide free diapers, and parenting classes, and ultrasounds.

他们做的事情包括提供免费尿布、育儿课程和超声波检查。

That's what Rebecca helped with.

这就是丽贝卡提供的帮助。

So anyways, those free ultrasounds Rebecca gave herself-- once she was pregnant going through this new experience, she developed this Monday morning ritual at work.

不管怎样，丽贝卡给自己做了这些免费的超声波检查——一旦她怀孕了，经历了这种新的经历，她就在周一早上的工作中养成了习惯。

She'd head straight to her ultrasound room, stand up in front of her screen, squirt jelly on her abdomen, and grab the probe, which looks a little bit like a Nintendo Wii controller.

她会直接前往超声室，站在屏幕前，在腹部喷果冻，然后抓住探头，它看起来有点像任天堂 Wii 控制器。

Here's what she saw.

这就是她所看到的。

Week six, the flicker of a heartbeat.

第六周，心跳的一闪而过。

Week seven, little arm buds.

第七周，小臂芽。

Week nine, toes.

第九周，脚趾。

And then when I got to the 10th week, I was scanning myself, and I noticed there was some fluid on the back of the neck.

然后当我到了第十周时，我对自己进行了扫描，我注意到脖子后面有一些液体。

And I noticed that there was a bulge kind of right by the abdomen.

我注意到腹部右侧有一个隆起。

Rebecca went to find one of the doctors she worked with.

丽贝卡去找了一位与她一起工作的医生。

Her boss came too, to do another scan.

她的老板也来了，要做另一次扫描。

I know.

我知道。

I know the looks between doctors and sonographers.

我了解医生和超声检查师之间的表情。

I know what those mean.

我知道那些意味着什么。

They weren't going to hide anything from me.

他们不会向我隐瞒任何事情。

Just them looking at each other, and just kind of an unease between the two of them, knowing that there was something definitely really wrong, but we weren't sure exactly what it was, which is what the doctor told me.

只是他们互相看着对方，两人之间有一种不安，知道肯定出了什么问题，但我们不确定到底是什么，这是医生告诉我的。

It was just kind of like a drop-- my stomach dropped.

有点像一滴水——我的胃下降了。

Rebecca and her husband, Josh, eventually got a likely diagnosis-- limb-body wall complex.

丽贝卡和她的丈夫乔什最终得到了一个可能的诊断——肢体-体壁复合体。

This is extremely rare.

这是极其罕见的。

By 15 weeks, most of the baby's organs-- the stomach, liver, intestines-- were hanging outside of the abdomen.

到了 15 周时，婴儿的大部分器官——胃、肝脏、肠——都悬在腹外。

The baby's spine was bent at a 90-degree angle.

婴儿的脊柱弯曲成90度角。

Those anomalies were enough to know that either the baby was going to have thousands of surgeries when it was born alive, or it could end up being stillborn.

这些异常现象足以表明，这个婴儿要么在生下来时要接受数千次手术，要么最终可能死产。

I think they said most babies don't live to be a year old.

我想他们说大多数婴儿活不过一岁。

So there's very rare circumstances that the baby even lived a few days or months.

因此，婴儿甚至能活几天或几个月的情况非常罕见。

But there was no record of a baby of being over a year old.

但没有一岁以上婴儿的记录。

They had to decide what to do.

他们必须决定该怎么做。

Rebecca knew her doctor might bring up abortion.

丽贝卡知道她的医生可能会提出堕胎的问题。

Do you remember how that conversation went with your doctors?

您还记得与您的医生的谈话是怎样的吗？

Yeah, so we had sat down and she said, I know-- they all knew what my personal beliefs were.

是的，所以我们坐下来，她说，我知道——他们都知道我的个人信仰是什么。

And so she said, I know normally what you would choose.

所以她说，我通常知道你会选择什么。

You might choose to carry to term.

您可能会选择继续足月。

But since this is such a low risk of survival, what are you thinking now?

但既然生存风险这么低，你现在在想什么呢？

This is likely going to end in the baby dying at some point, either before birth or after birth.

这很可能会导致婴儿在出生前或出生后的某个时刻死亡。

They still gave me that option to terminate.

他们仍然给了我终止的选择。

Do you remember how you internally reacted to that suggestion?

你还记得你内心对这个建议的反应吗？

Kind of dismissively, I guess.

我想，有点不屑一顾。

It wasn't even on the table, in my eyes.

在我眼里，它甚至不在桌子上。

How did your husband react?

你丈夫的反应如何？

Rebecca Shrader Similar.

丽贝卡施雷德类似。

Very like, oh, we're going to carry to term.

非常像，哦，我们要继续下去。

We were pretty much on the same page.

我们几乎意见一致。

She would carry the baby as long as she could, even though it would have been safer for her own health to terminate.

她会尽可能长时间地怀着孩子，尽管终止孩子对她自己的健康来说更安全。

Generally speaking, pregnancy and delivery carry a lot of inherent risks.

一般来说，怀孕和分娩存在很多固有的风险。

But Rebecca believed she had to give her baby a chance.

但丽贝卡相信她必须给她的孩子一个机会。

There was a purpose for her baby's life, even if Rebecca didn't quite know what it was yet.

她的孩子的生命是有一个目的的，即使丽贝卡还不知道那是什么。

It wasn't her place to change the course of her pregnancy.

这不是她改变怀孕过程的地方。

As a sonographer, she knew there was basically no possibility that her baby would be born alive and survive.

作为一名超声检查师，她知道她的孩子基本上不可能活着出生并存活下来。

But as a Christian, she felt she had to be faithful and keep praying hard that God would intervene.

但作为一名基督徒，她觉得自己必须忠诚并不断努力祈祷上帝介入。

There was a tiny bit of hope still there.

心中还存有一丝希望。

I do feel like so many people saying, I'm praying for a miracle and stuff, did give me a little bit of hope maybe the baby would survive.

我确实觉得很多人都在说，我在祈祷奇迹之类的事情，确实给了我一点希望，也许孩子会活下来。

Do you feel like you needed that little sliver of hope in order to continue carrying?

你觉得你需要那一点点希望才能继续前进吗？

I do believe that I probably craved it, especially being visibly pregnant and scanning people every day.

我确实相信我可能渴望它，尤其是明显怀孕并每天扫描人们。

And everyone's asking me-- every patient that I have is asking me about it.

每个人都在问我——我的每个病人都在问我这个问题。

Are you having a boy or girl?

你怀的是男孩还是女孩？

And do you have a nursery already?

你已经有托儿所了吗？

And all of that stuff.

还有所有这些东西。

So I do feel like I kind of held on to hope for a little bit.

所以我确实觉得我还抱有一点希望。

In a strange way, she wasn't surprised that something had gone terribly wrong with her pregnancy.

奇怪的是，她对怀孕期间出现的严重问题并不感到惊讶。

Rebecca always had this feeling in the back of her mind like God was going to use her or test her in some way, because she worked at a place where most of her coworkers were pro-choice and where the doctors referred patients to get abortions at a nearby clinic all the time.

丽贝卡心里总有一种感觉，好像上帝要利用她或以某种方式考验她，因为在她工作的地方，大多数同事都支持堕胎，医生总是推荐病人到附近的诊所堕胎。

Rebecca started a blog called "Afflictions Eclipsed By Glory," a line from a popular Christian song.

丽贝卡开设了一个名为“荣耀黯然失色”的博客，这是一首流行基督教歌曲中的一句台词。

She made it to share all of the complicated medical details she was sorting through with her family and friends.

她与家人和朋友分享了她正在整理的所有复杂的医疗细节。

But she also hoped it would reach beyond her circle with a specific message.

但她也希望它能传达出一个具体的信息，超越她的圈子。

I do feel like I wanted to empower women by saying, I made this choice.

我确实觉得我想通过说“我做出了这个选择”来赋予女性权力。

And if you feel like you can, then I'm telling you I did it so that maybe you feel like you can do it too.

如果你觉得你可以，那么我告诉你我做到了，这样也许你觉得你也可以做到。

And I just wanted to be used by God in whatever way he had me.

我只是想被上帝以任何他拥有我的方式使用。

So I just kind of wrote every blog with very honest feelings.

所以我只是带着非常诚实的感受写每一篇博客。

In one of her entries, she wrote, quote, "You may not notice, but I cry a lot.

在她的一篇文章中，她写道，“你可能没有注意到，但我经常哭。

Usually alone in my car, apartment, or ultrasound room, but always silent and always in control." At 18 weeks, Rebecca and Josh announced on their blog that they were having a girl.

通常独自在车里、公寓里或超声波检查室里，但总是保持沉默并始终处于控制之中。”18 周时，丽贝卡和乔什在博客上宣布他们怀上了一个女孩。

They named her Cora Kimberly.

他们给她取名科拉·金伯利。

Rebecca came to see her pregnancy as a personal cross that would provide some inevitable redemption.

丽贝卡开始将她的怀孕视为个人的十字架，它将提供一些不可避免的救赎。

And this idea was reflected back to her at church.

这个想法在教堂里也反映到了她身上。

When Rebecca first started going to Summit, it felt really large.

当丽贝卡第一次开始去峰会时，感觉它真的很大。

But she volunteered in the baby room during services, and got to know people, and found this group of women who she could really talk to-- her small group.

但她在服务期间在婴儿室做志愿者，认识了人们，并找到了这群她真正可以交谈的女性——她的小团体。

That's the term in evangelical-speak for the people she prayed with every week.

这是福音派术语，指的是她每周一起祈祷的人。

These were her closest friends in Durham, the people who invited her and her husband to baseball games and had them over to their houses for cookouts.

这些是她在达勒姆最亲密的朋友，他们邀请她和她的丈夫观看棒球比赛，并邀请他们去家里野餐。

When Rebecca shared the latest on her pregnancy, they'd tell her how strong she was.

当丽贝卡分享她怀孕的最新消息时，他们会告诉她她有多坚强。

People knew the Shraders when they walked into church.

当人们走进教堂时，他们就认识了施拉德夫妇。

They'd sometimes stop Rebecca in the halls and say they'd read her blog, and they were praying for her.

他们有时会在大厅里拦住丽贝卡，说他们读过她的博客，并为她祈祷。

At Summit, she was like this pro-life darling.

在峰会上，她就像这个反堕胎的宠儿。

One Monday in her third trimester, Rebecca went into work and started her week like she always did-- alone in her ultrasound room, running the probe over her belly.

在妊娠晚期的一个星期一，丽贝卡开始工作，像往常一样开始她的一周——独自在超声波室里，用探头在她的腹部上运行。

And I saw that she didn't have a heartbeat, and it was just-- all of a sudden, everything became surreal at that point.

我看到她没有心跳，突然之间，一切都变得超现实。

One of my first thoughts was, now I'm going to have to go through labor to deliver her, and she's not going to be alive.

我的第一个想法是，现在我将不得不经历分娩来接生她，而她将不会活着。

Thinking about everything she was about to have to do made her incredibly anxious.

想到她即将要做的一切，她感到无比焦虑。

I've never labored before.

我以前从来没有劳动过。

This is my first baby.

这是我的第一个孩子。

And then I was going to hold her, and I had no idea-- I hadn't held my own baby, ever.

然后我要抱她，但我不知道——我从来没有抱过自己的孩子。

And so here I am, I'm going to hold a baby who's no longer living.

所以我在这里，我要抱着一个不再活着的婴儿。

And so it was just a lot of feeling of dread.

所以这只是很多恐惧的感觉。

At the hospital, doctors gave Rebecca a drug to start her labor.

在医院，医生给丽贝卡注射了药物以开始分娩。

Church friends were in the room when she started pushing.

当她开始推动时，教会朋友就在房间里。

Cora was so tiny-- just 1 pound, 2 ounces-- that it only took about five minutes for Rebecca to deliver her.

科拉太小了——只有 1 磅 2 盎司——丽贝卡只花了大约五分钟就接生了她。

The room was silent.

房间里一片寂静。

Later that day, two pastors from Summit came by to pray with Rebecca.

那天晚些时候，两位来自峰会的牧师过来和丽贝卡一起祈祷。

They read her verses from the book of Lamentations.

他们读了她的《耶利米哀歌》中的诗句。

I don't even really remember crying that much when I was in the room, I think, because I was surrounded by so many other people.

我想，我什至不记得当我在房间里时哭了那么多，因为我周围有很多人。

And I just didn't allow myself that moment of grief until everyone had left, and I was by myself at night.

直到所有人都离开后，我才让自己经历那一刻的悲伤，晚上只有我一个人。

Did you still, in this moment, feel that God was using you?

此时此刻你还觉得神在使用你吗？

I mean, I felt like I was completely still kind of in shock, I guess, in the moment.

我的意思是，我觉得我当时完全处于震惊之中。

But I felt like maybe God was using me in a way that I didn't even know yet.

但我觉得也许上帝正在以一种我还不知道的方式使用我。

Cora's headstone bears the title of the classic hymn It Is Well With My Soul.

科拉的墓碑上刻有经典赞美诗《我的灵魂安好》的标题。

Rebecca got the same phrase tattooed on the underside of her wrist.

丽贝卡在手腕下方纹了同样的短语。

After Cora died, Rebecca and her husband decided to adopt a kid.

科拉去世后，丽贝卡和她的丈夫决定收养一个孩子。

This is pretty common in the evangelical and pro-life worlds.

这在福音派和反堕胎世界中很常见。

And it was something her church really supported.

这是她的教会真正支持的事情。

And while they were going through this process, they also started trying for another pregnancy.

在经历这个过程的同时，他们也开始尝试再次怀孕。

It happened fast.

事情发生得很快。

Rebecca's due date was just a couple of weeks before the first anniversary of Cora's death.

丽贝卡的预产期距离科拉去世一周年仅剩几周。

She scanned herself every week, just like she had done with Cora.

她每周都会扫描自己，就像她对科拉所做的那样。

But this time, everything was perfect.

但这一次，一切都很完美。

I was a little anxious, but she came early.

我有点着急，但她来得早。

So that was helpful.

所以这很有帮助。

She came at 38 and 1/2 weeks, so I didn't have to worry too, too long.

她38零1/2周就来了，所以我不用担心太久。

And my labor was really easy and good.

我的分娩过程真的很轻松、很好。

And everything about it was great.

一切都很棒。

And so when she came out, it was just all joy.

所以当她出来的时候，大家都很高兴。

And so I thought maybe this is my gift after being through something so horrible.

所以我想这也许是我经历过如此可怕的事情后的礼物。

They named her Lydia.

他们给她起名叫莉迪亚。

She was their rainbow baby, which is what the pregnancy loss world calls a birth after a miscarriage, stillbirth, or infant death-- this glimpse of brightness.

她是他们的彩虹宝宝，这就是流产界所说的流产、死产或婴儿死亡后的出生——这是一瞥光明。

People at her church were extra excited for her.

她教堂里的人们都为她感到格外兴奋。

They told her and Josh how much they deserved it.

他们告诉她和乔什他们是多么罪有应得。

And then, the adoption went through.

然后，收养就通过了。

The Shraders' son, Aben, came to North Carolina from Ethiopia.

施拉德夫妇的儿子阿本从埃塞俄比亚来到北卡罗来纳州。

He was about two years older than Lydia.

他比莉迪亚大两岁左右。

The Shraders wanted a big family, something like four kids.

施拉德夫妇想要一个大家庭，比如四个孩子。

They bought a minivan.

他们买了一辆小型货车。

But little by little, in the background of all of that life unfolding, Rebecca was thinking about her pro-life stance and questioning it.

但渐渐地，在所有这些生活展开的背景下，丽贝卡开始思考她的反堕胎立场并提出质疑。

Her questions came from little observations, things she felt in her body.

她的问题来自于一些小小的观察，以及她在身体中感受到的东西。

Like after losing Cora, Rebecca learned that the drug doctors use to inducer labor is also used in some abortion procedures.

就像失去科拉后一样，丽贝卡了解到医生用来引产的药物也用于一些堕胎手术。

And Rebecca realized that some women who had abortions-- some, but not all-- were part of the very small group who could viscerally understand one of the hardest parts of what she went through-- laboring to deliver a body that will never cry out.

丽贝卡意识到，一些堕胎的女性——有一些，但不是全部——是一小部分人的一部分，她们能够发自内心地理解她所经历的最艰难的部分之一——努力生下一个永远不会哭泣的身体。

It made me realize that for a lot of people-- not for everybody, but for a lot of people, abortion can be a very traumatic, unwanted procedure that they feel like they have no choice to go through.

这让我意识到，对于很多人来说——不是每个人，而是很多人，堕胎可能是一种非常痛苦的、不必要的手术，他们觉得自己别无选择。

And that's kind of how I felt like I was going through this birth.

这就是我正在经历这次出生的感觉。

I didn't want to deliver her.

我不想送她。

I didn't want to deliver her body.

我不想交出她的尸体。

I didn't want to have to go through that.

我不想经历这些。

The strangeness of that shared experience started to make her feel a new kind of empathy for women who'd had abortions.

这段共同经历的陌生感开始让她对堕胎的女性产生一种新的同情心。

Her pro-life world at Summit started looking different to her.

她在峰会上的反堕胎世界开始变得不一样了。

The way people talked about abortion was so black and white, and she was starting to see some gray.

人们谈论堕胎的方式是如此黑白分明，而她开始看到一些灰色的东西。

But she knew she couldn't say anything about all of this at church.

但她知道她不能在教堂里对这一切说任何话。

In 2017, Rebecca found out she was pregnant a third time.

2017年，丽贝卡发现自己第三次怀孕。

And seven weeks in, scanning herself, she noticed something was wrong with the baby's head.

七周后，她对自己进行了扫描，发现婴儿的头部出现了问题。

Against all odds, the worst thing was happening, again-- another pregnancy with a fatal diagnosis.

尽管困难重重，最糟糕的事情再次发生——另一次怀孕却被诊断为致命。

This time, anencephaly, an extremely rare disorder where parts of the brain and skull are missing or develop abnormally.

这次是无脑畸形，这是一种极其罕见的疾病，其中大脑和头骨的部分缺失或发育异常。

Babies with this diagnosis are usually stillborn or die within a couple of hours or days.

患有这种诊断的婴儿通常是死产或在几个小时或几天内死亡。

There's no chance of survival.

没有生存的机会了。

How did it feel to have another challenging diagnosis?

再次获得具有挑战性的诊断感觉如何？

Did you feel like God was playing a joke on you?

你有没有觉得老天在跟你开玩笑？

Did you feel like you were just profoundly unlucky?

你是否觉得自己非常不幸？

What was that like, to be there again?

再次来到那里感觉如何？

I was like, maybe God put me in this situation again to, I don't know, test me, or show Himself again.

我当时想，也许上帝再次把我置于这种境地，我不知道，是为了考验我，或者再次显现他自己。

But why did He have to do it this way?

但他为什么要这样做呢？

I was mad that we were doing this again.

我很生气我们又这样做了。

I was mad that I was going to-- I was almost mad that I was going to have to choose life.

我很生气，因为我要选择生活，我几乎要生气。

Like, I wanted to, but I was also mad at the decision that I was having to make, it felt like.

就像，我想这样做，但我也对我必须做出的决定感到愤怒，感觉就像是。

Because this was different than Cora.

因为这与科拉不同。

I didn't have any hope.

我没有任何希望。

There wasn't any hope.

没有任何希望。

Doctors later told Rebecca there wasn't any genetic or medical explanation for why she and Josh had two pregnancies that went so wrong.

医生后来告诉丽贝卡，没有任何遗传学或医学解释可以解释为什么她和乔什的两次怀孕都如此糟糕。

They just got very, very unlucky.

他们只是非常非常不幸。

They had to sit down again with a doctor to talk about what to do.

他们不得不再次与医生坐下来讨论该怎么办。

It ended up being the same doctor who had talked them through their decision with Cora.

最终，正是那位与科拉讨论了他们的决定的医生。

She said the same thing again.

她又说了同样的话。

She was like, I know that you carried to term before.

她说，我知道你之前就已经足月了。

I don't want to assume-- because I remember this.

我不想假设——因为我记得这一点。

She said, I don't want to assume that you're going to carry to term again.

她说，我不想假设你会再次足月。

She was like, so I just want to put termination on the table.

她说，所以我只想把终止协议放在桌面上。

She was like, and if you need to talk about it, I can be here to talk about it.

她说，如果你需要谈论它，我可以在这里谈论它。

If you want to talk about it with just your husband alone, you can do that.

如果您想单独与您的丈夫谈论这件事，您可以这样做。

And I remember looking over at my husband like, me saying, yes, we're going to carry to term, and him saying at the same time, I don't know.

我记得我看着我的丈夫，说，是的，我们会一直到足月，他同时说，我不知道。

We both said it at the same time.

我们俩同时这么说。

The doctor noticed that we both said different things, stepped out, and we had a conversation right then and there about it.

医生注意到我们俩说了不同的话，就走了出去，我们立即就此事进行了交谈。

And I guess I felt like I couldn't live with myself if I personally chose knowing that I had done this before.

我想如果我个人选择知道我以前做过这件事，我会觉得我无法忍受自己。

What would I be saying?

我会说什么？

Would I be saying Cora was more worthy, that I like this baby more than this baby?

我是否会说科拉更有价值，我更喜欢这个婴儿而不是这个婴儿？

Or this baby deserves a chance and this one didn't?

或者这个婴儿应该得到一个机会，而这个却没有？

And he was like, I don't know if we can do this again.

他说，我不知道我们是否可以再做一次。

Eventually, they decided together that Rebecca would continue the pregnancy.

最终，他们共同决定丽贝卡继续怀孕。

They also gave this baby a name, Layla Kate.

他们还给这个婴儿起了一个名字：蕾拉·凯特。

But Rebecca's pregnancy with Layla was very different from the one she had with Cora.

但丽贝卡怀下蕾拉的怀孕与她怀下科拉的怀孕有很大不同。

Back then, she talked with her small group at church constantly about what was going on with Cora and how she was feeling.

当时，她经常与教堂里的小团体谈论科拉的近况以及她的感受。

With Layla, she didn't really want to talk about it at all.

对于蕾拉，她根本不想谈论这件事。

Rebecca spent most of her days at work trying to dissociate from what was happening.

丽贝卡大部分时间都在工作，试图摆脱正在发生的事情。

But she couldn't ignore it entirely.

但她又不能完全忽视它。

Layla was way more active than Cora, kicking and tumbling around.

莱拉比科拉活跃得多，会踢腿、翻滚。

For a while, Rebecca stopped reading the Bible.

有一段时间，丽贝卡不再读圣经了。

She couldn't pray.

她无法祈祷。

She couldn't sing hymns.

她不会唱赞美诗。

I grieved with Cora in a sad way.

我对科拉感到悲伤。

When Layla came along, I came out more in a rage.

当莱拉出现时，我更加愤怒了。

What does that mean?

这意味着什么？

Rebecca Shrader I remember a very specific incident where I was doing laundry.

丽贝卡·施拉德（Rebecca Shrader） 我记得一件非常具体的事情，当时我正在洗衣服。

I started freaking out and throwing the laundry.

我开始抓狂并扔掉洗好的衣服。

And then I ended up punching the dresser and jamming my finger.

然后我就打了梳妆台，卡住了手指。

And it was just-- I had just held it in for so long, being at work, trying to hold it in, holding all my emotions.

只是——我已经忍住了这么久，在工作中，试图忍住，忍住我所有的情绪。

It all came out at one time.

这一切一下子就出来了。

And of course, it was at home.

当然，那是在家里。

So it happened kind of in front of my kids and stuff.

所以这件事就发生在我的孩子们面前。

And they were confused as to why I was so yelling and angry.

他们很困惑为什么我如此大喊大叫和生气。

And I was like, I just can't pretend.

我当时想，我就是无法假装。

My pretending was just at a-- we were at a limit.

我的假装已经到了极限。

The thing Rebecca wanted most of all, her number one prayer request, was to hold Layla alive after she was born.

丽贝卡最想要的事情，也是她的首要祈祷请求，就是在蕾拉出生后让她活着。

She became hyper-focused on the idea that Layla's organs could be donated to medical research.

她变得非常关注莱拉的器官可以捐献给医学研究的想法。

She was grasping for a sense of purpose, still hoping she would get some kind of redemption.

她紧紧抓住一种使命感，仍然希望自己能得到某种救赎。

And then one night, roughly a week before she was scheduled to be induced, she felt like something was off.

然后有一天晚上，大约在她预定引产前一周，她感觉有些不对劲。

And I was like, well, maybe she's just tired and doesn't want to move.

我当时想，好吧，也许她只是累了，不想动。

Maybe this is just a day she doesn't move.

也许这只是她不动的一天。

And I went into work-- even though I wasn't supposed to be at work-- I went in to scan myself because I just couldn't handle the anxiety.

然后我就去工作了——尽管我不应该去工作——我进去自我扫描，因为我无法应对焦虑。

And that's when I found out that she didn't have a heartbeat.

就在那时我发现她没有心跳了。

It almost felt like an immediate rejection, and like my prayer hadn't been heard.

这几乎感觉就像是立即被拒绝，就像我的祈祷没有被听到一样。

And I felt like I asked for so little in these big situations.

我觉得在这些大情况下我的要求太少了。

And I felt like I didn't get it.

我感觉我没听懂。

Because Layla wasn't born alive, her organs couldn't be donated.

由于莱拉并非活着出生，她的器官无法捐献。

The family buried her in a plot near Cora.

家人将她埋葬在科拉附近的一块土地上。

When Rebecca returned to work after Layla's death, it felt good to be back at first.

当蕾拉去世后丽贝卡重返工作岗位时，一开始回来的感觉很好。

She felt especially drawn to helping families who knew their babies were not going to survive, so the doctors specifically gave those cases to her.

她特别想帮助那些知道自己的孩子无法生存的家庭，所以医生专门把这些病例交给了她。

But her grief was persistent, a debilitating fog in her head.

但她的悲痛始终挥之不去，脑子里笼罩着一层令人衰弱的迷雾。

All day, every day, she performed ultrasounds in the very same room where she had discovered that both Cora and Layla's heartbeats had stopped.

一整天，每一天，她都在同一个房间里进行超声波检查，发现科拉和莱拉的心跳都停止了。

There's this picture of tulips, her favorite flower, in her ultrasound room.

她的超声波室里有这张她最喜欢的花郁金香的照片。

She used to love it.

她曾经很喜欢它。

But now it was a constant reminder of what she had lost.

但现在它不断提醒她失去了什么。

Just seeing the ultrasound machine and being in that room was enough to make me nervous.

仅仅看到超声波机器并身处那个房间就足以让我感到紧张。

My heart would race when I had to take a patient in sometimes.

有时当我不得不收治病人时，我的心会加速。

I was always fearful that the same thing was going to happen.

我总是担心同样的事情会发生。

I was going to scan somebody who had a surprise abnormality, and I was going to have to tell them.

我要对一个出现意外异常的人进行扫描，我必须告诉他们。

I just didn't-- I didn't want to go through those feelings again.

我只是不想——我不想再次经历那些感觉。

Rebecca got a therapist, went on depression meds.

丽贝卡找了一位治疗师，继续服用抑郁症药物。

But after an entire year of feeling so unsteady at work, she decided she actually had to leave her job.

但在经历了一整年的工作不稳定之后，她决定必须辞职。

She found a new position at a regular OB clinic, where the patients were mostly young, and healthy, and had uncomplicated pregnancies.

她在一家常规产科诊所找到了一个新职位，那里的病人大多是年轻、健康、妊娠无并发症的人。

On her blog, she posted a picture of herself holding a pill in her open hand.

在她的博客上，她发布了一张自己张开手里拿着药丸的照片。

The entry is titled, "It's OK to Have Jesus and a Therapist Too." You can see Cora and Layla's names tattooed on her wrist below that phrase, "It Is Well With My Soul."

该条目的标题是“有耶稣和治疗师也没关系”。你可以看到科拉和莱拉的名字纹在她的手腕上，下面写着“我的灵魂很好”。

This time around, Rebecca really felt like she wanted to talk openly about how hard and painful all of this had been.

这一次，丽贝卡真的很想公开谈论这一切是多么艰难和痛苦。

She saw an opportunity to speak publicly at this event her church holds called, Sanctity of Life Sunday.

她看到了在她的教会举办的名为“生命神圣周日”的活动中公开演讲的机会。

Lots of conservative churches use Sanctity of Life Sunday each year to preach about the pro-life cause.

许多保守派教会每年都会利用“生命神圣日”来宣传反堕胎事业。

I did, many times, reach out to our church and say, hey, Sanctity of Life Sunday is coming up.

我确实多次联系我们的教会并说，嘿，生命神圣周日即将到来。

I would be happy to speak out, and this is my story.

我很乐意说出来，这就是我的故事。

And I sent that to our head pastor and many of the other pastors, and it was never brought up or answered.

我把这个问题发给我们的首席牧师和许多其他牧师，但从未被提出或回复。

It was just amazing to me that I had been through this twice.

令我惊讶的是我已经经历过两次这样的事情了。

I could go up there and speak about it.

我可以去那里谈论它。

And I was in the church.

我在教堂里。

I was a member of the church, and they never asked me to.

我是教会的成员，他们从来没有要求我这样做。

I asked some leaders at Summit about this, including a lead pastor.

我在峰会上询问了一些领导人，包括一位首席牧师。

And they said that they're often choosing from multiple stories and don't have enough time at services for each one to be shared.

他们说，他们经常从多个故事中进行选择，并且没有足够的时间来分享每个故事。

But Rebecca believes she wasn't given a chance to speak because only a certain kind of woman gets featured at Sanctity of Life Sunday, the woman who chose life, sometimes against doctor's advice, and certainly against all odds, and God rewarded her for her faith.

但丽贝卡认为，她没有得到发言的机会，因为只有某种特定类型的女性才能在《生命神圣周日》上亮相，她选择了生命，有时不顾医生的建议，当然也排除万难，而上帝因她的信仰而奖赏了她。

She was given some heart-wrenching diagnosis, but her baby was born completely fine.

她得到了一些令人心碎的诊断，但她的孩子出生时完全正常。

Or as she was told her son would have severe disabilities, but here he is at church, thriving as an adult.

或者正如她被告知的那样，她的儿子会有严重的残疾，但他在教堂里，作为一个成年人茁壮成长。

With Cora, Rebecca easily fit into this archetype.

有了科拉，丽贝卡就很容易融入这个原型。

Her church community rallied around her with their prayers and their presence.

她的教会社区通过祈祷和出席聚集在她周围。

And she did get her redemption story in a way, with Lydia arriving so soon after Cora's death, and Aben's adoption not too long after that.

在某种程度上，她确实得到了自己的救赎故事，科拉死后莉迪亚很快就到了，不久之后阿本就被收养了。

But now, Rebecca felt like her life no longer fit a clean redemption storyline.

但现在，丽贝卡觉得她的生活不再符合干净的救赎故事情节。

I can't imagine going up there at the front of the church saying, this is what happened, and then my baby died.

我无法想象我会站在教堂前面说，这就是发生的事情，然后我的孩子就死了。

And then it was really hard, and I was really depressed and mad at God.

然后真的很难，我真的很沮丧，对上帝很生气。

They didn't want to be told that it was hard.

他们不想被告知这很难。

They wanted to hear me, when I was with Cora saying, I had hope, and I was OK.

当我和科拉在一起时，他们想听我说，我有希望，我很好。

But I think my grief after Layla was way more authentic than it was after Cora.

但我认为我对莱拉的悲伤比对科拉的悲伤更真实。

And people felt uncomfortable about that.

人们对此感到不舒服。

To be clear, Summit leaders say they don't only want to hear happy stories.

需要明确的是，峰会领导人表示，他们不仅仅想听到快乐的故事。

But that's not how Rebecca sees it.

但丽贝卡却不这么看。

When her experience of making a pro-life decision got more complicated, when she felt more ambivalence, it was like they didn't want anything to do with her.

当她做出反堕胎决定的经历变得更加复杂时，当她感到更加矛盾时，就好像他们不想与她有任何关系。

Rebecca was feeling incredibly alienated in the pro-life world.

丽贝卡在反堕胎的世界里感到非常疏远。

But she slowly started to realize that other evangelical women were feeling the same way.

但她慢慢开始意识到其他福音派女性也有同样的感受。

They were coming to her, quietly-- sometimes at church, sometimes online-- telling her their stories, messy ones that also wouldn't make the stage at Sanctity of Life Sunday.

他们悄悄地向她走来——有时在教堂，有时在网上——向她讲述他们的故事，那些杂乱的故事也不会在周日生命神圣活动的舞台上出现。

There was this one woman from church named Jen.

教堂里有一位名叫珍的女士。

She was pretty involved at Summit.

她非常积极地参与峰会。

Rebecca first met her when they were both helping with child care during Sunday services.

丽贝卡第一次见到她时，他们都在周日服务期间帮忙看护孩子。

They had a lot in common.

他们有很多共同点。

Jen also grew up in a really conservative Christian world, really wanted to be a mom.

珍也在一个非常保守的基督教世界中长大，她真的很想成为一名母亲。

When she got pregnant for the first time, she also got this diagnosis that came out of nowhere-- Trisomy 13, a rare condition with little chance of survival.

当她第一次怀孕时，她也突然得到了这个诊断——13三体症，这是一种罕见的生存机会很小的疾病。

When Rebecca heard about Jen's situation through the grapevine at church, she immediately thought about what she'd been through with Cora and Layla.

当丽贝卡通过教堂的小道消息得知珍的处境时，她立即想到了她与科拉和莱拉的经历。

But Rebecca learned that Jen might be considering an abortion.

但丽贝卡得知珍可能正在考虑堕胎。

Rebecca texted her.

丽贝卡给她发短信。

I had said something like, regardless of the choice you make, I'm here with you.

我说过，无论你做出什么选择，我都会和你在一起。

If you need to call me and vent, or need to talk to me, just know I'm safe.

如果您需要打电话给我发泄，或者需要与我交谈，请知道我很安全。

They didn't know each other very well back then, but Jen told me Rebecca's message allowed her to admit to herself that she might get an abortion, and it would be OK if she did.

当时他们彼此还不是很了解，但Jen告诉我Rebecca的信息让她向自己承认她可能会堕胎，如果她这么做了也没关系。

Ultimately, Jen chose to terminate her pregnancy.

最终，珍选择终止妊娠。

Afterwards, at church, Jen didn't hear from any of the pastors.

后来，在教堂里，珍没有收到任何牧师的消息。

Summit didn't want to comment on this specific situation.

Summit 不想就这一具体情况发表评论。

But they said, in general, they aim for their ministry to be shaped by the approach of Jesus who went to people in crisis.

但他们表示，总的来说，他们的目标是通过耶稣去帮助处于危机中的人们的方式来塑造他们的事工。

Jen didn't feel like she could have a straight conversation with her small group.

珍觉得她无法与她的小团体进行直接对话。

Sometimes, she just told people she'd lost the baby, letting them think it was a miscarriage.

有时，她只是告诉人们她失去了孩子，让他们认为这是流产。

Rebecca saw this and felt sad that Jen didn't feel like she could be honest.

丽贝卡看到这一点，为珍觉得自己不能诚实而感到难过。

Rebecca believed church should be the place where people who are hurting can find comfort and a community to walk alongside them.

丽贝卡相信教堂应该是一个让受伤的人能够找到安慰和与他们并肩同行的社区的地方。

She was disappointed that Summit could be so cold, especially in Jen's case, where it wasn't even a choice between a healthy baby and an abortion, between life and death.

她对峰会如此寒冷感到失望，尤其是在珍的情况下，甚至没有在健康婴儿和堕胎之间、生与死之间做出选择。

The baby was likely going to die.

婴儿很可能会死。

And so here we are in a situation where it was death and death.

所以我们现在处于一个生死存亡的境地。

And there's no real choice there.

那里没有真正的选择。

It's just-- it is what it is.

就是这样。

And so that really changed my view on abortion.

这确实改变了我对堕胎的看法。

Rebecca understood why Jen chose to have an abortion, and believes she should have the right to do it.

丽贝卡理解珍选择堕胎的原因，并相信她应该有权利这样做。

This idea would have been unthinkable to her only a few years earlier.

就在几年前，这个想法对她来说还是不可想象的。

She still struggled with the thought that healthy women with viable pregnancies would choose to terminate.

她仍然对那些能够怀孕的健康女性会选择终止妊娠的想法感到挣扎。

But she also believes she couldn't know exactly what their reasons were, and it wasn't up to her to dictate someone else's decision.

但她也相信她无法确切知道他们的理由是什么，而且她也不能决定别人的决定。

She decided to share all of this in a blog post-- a post that her family, and friends, and many online followers would see.

她决定在博客文章中分享所有这些内容——她的家人、朋友以及许多在线关注者都会看到的帖子。

It was scary.

太可怕了。

Rebecca worried that people would think she wasn't a Christian anymore.

丽贝卡担心人们会认为她不再是基督徒了。

She wrote, quote, "I am an evangelical, pro-life, registered Republican who believes Roe v.

她写道：“我是一名福音派、反堕胎、注册共和党人，相信罗伊诉特朗普案。

Wade doesn't need to be overturned in an effort to decrease abortions.

不需要为了减少堕胎而推翻韦德。

I chose life for two babies knowing they would die, and I do not believe that should be a choice women are forced into making."

我为两个婴儿选择了生命，知道他们会死，我不认为这应该是女性被迫做出的选择。”

And then once I hit Publish, I was just like, OK, here we go.

然后，一旦我点击“发布”，我就想，好吧，我们开始吧。

Because I knew there was going to be some sort of backlash.

因为我知道会有某种强烈的反对。

Did you get pastors trashing you?

你有被牧师糟蹋过吗？

What kind of feedback were you getting?

您得到了什么样的反馈？

When you hear somebody calling you a Jezebel, what do you think they're trying to say to you?

当你听到有人叫你耶洗别时，你认为他们想对你说什么？

Like, a non-biblical woman, I think, is what they were trying to get across.

我想，他们想要传达的就是一个不符合圣经的女人。

Somebody who is controversial, non-biblical, somebody who should be kind of cast aside.

一个有争议的、不符合圣经的人，一个应该被抛弃的人。

I'm just saying, we don't know everyone's circumstances, and we can't force women to make a decision.

我只是说，我们不了解每个人的情况，我们不能强迫女性做出决定。

So you felt like the fact that you had, with your own life, chosen to do this really, really, really hard thing based on your convictions basically counted for nothing after you came out and said that you supported legal abortion.

所以你觉得，在你站出来表示你支持合法堕胎之后，你根据自己的信念，用自己的生命选择做这件非常非常困难的事情，基本上毫无意义。

Yes.

是的。

So some people-- some people even told me I didn't do enough, that I should have had them all-- had the babies resuscitated.

所以有些人——有些人甚至告诉我我做得还不够，我应该把他们全部救活——让婴儿复苏。

And I should have done all of the surgeries possible and all of the interventions possible, because I didn't do enough.

我应该做所有可能的手术和所有可能的干预措施，因为我做得还不够。

One evangelical blog wrote a couple of posts about Rebecca, deriding her as a, quote, "very confused person." Other bloggers screenshotted comments she made on Twitter and sent them to her pastor in her church, trying to prove that she wasn't a faithful Christian.

一个福音派博客写了几篇关于丽贝卡的帖子，嘲笑她是一个“非常困惑的人”。其他博主截屏了她在推特上发表的评论，并将其发送给她教堂的牧师，试图证明她不是忠实的基督徒。

Her pastor was a big deal in the evangelical world, and bloggers started attacking him just for being associated with her.

她的牧师在福音派世界中是个大人物，博客作者开始攻击他只是因为他与她有联系。

They wanted Rebecca kicked out of her church.

他们希望把丽贝卡赶出她的教堂。

That didn't happen, and Summit leaders say they get attacked online all the time.

但这并没有发生，峰会领导人表示他们一直受到网上攻击。

They tend to ignore nasty comments rather than responding to them directly.

他们倾向于忽略令人讨厌的评论，而不是直接回应。

But to Rebecca, it felt conspicuous that Summit leaders never reached out or stepped up to defend her.

但对于丽贝卡来说，峰会领导人从未伸出援手或挺身而出为她辩护，这一点很明显。

After everything that happened, Rebecca spent months agonizing over whether she and her family should even stay at Summit.

发生这一切之后，丽贝卡花了几个月的时间思考她和她的家人是否应该留在峰会。

It wasn't just the abortion issue.

这不仅仅是堕胎问题。

There was other stuff too.

还有其他的东西。

In particular, they didn't think the predominantly white world of Summit would be a good place to raise Aben, who's Black.

特别是，他们认为以白人为主的峰会世界不适合抚养黑人阿本。

Rebecca and Josh are white.

丽贝卡和乔什是白人。

They finally left last winter.

他们终于在去年冬天离开了。

Rebecca still strongly identifies as a Christian.

丽贝卡仍然强烈地认同自己是基督徒。

And she's still close with her small group.

她和她的小团体仍然关系密切。

But she's unsure where her place in the Christian world should be.

但她不确定自己在基督教世界中的位置应该在哪里。

While it feels hard to not be the pro-life darling that I once was, I feel like, it almost feels like churches and stuff don't know what to do with me.

虽然很难不成为我曾经的反堕胎宠儿，但我感觉，几乎感觉教堂和其他东西不知道该怎么对待我。

They don't know where to put me.

他们不知道该把我放在哪里。

When it comes to abortion, Rebecca says she's personally pro-life.

谈到堕胎，丽贝卡说她个人是反对堕胎的。

When she looks at her ultrasound screen at work, she still sees a human being.

当她在工作时查看超声波屏幕时，她仍然看到一个人。

But she's less sure than she once was that life begins at conception.

但她不像以前那样确信生命是从受孕开始的。

I was talking about this with a friend recently, who's also very similar to me.

最近和一个朋友聊到了这个问题，他也和我很相似。

I do feel like there's a lot of us out there who are kind of in between, and we just don't know which side to go to.

我确实觉得我们很多人都介于两者之间，我们只是不知道该站在哪一边。

Because we don't fit in the pro-life movement.

因为我们不适合反堕胎运动。

We don't fit the pro-choice movement.

我们不适合支持堕胎运动。

We're kind of in the middle, and we see good in both, and that we don't know if they will ever mesh or if they will just go further apart.

我们处于中间位置，我们看到两者都很好，但我们不知道它们是否会融合在一起，或者是否会进一步分离。

In all my years of reporting on abortion, this is the one thing that struck me over and over again.

在我多年来报道堕胎的过程中，这是让我一次又一次震惊的一件事。

Most people are actually like Rebecca and her friend, caught between pro-life and pro-choice in some way or another.

大多数人实际上都像丽贝卡和她的朋友一样，在某种程度上夹在反堕胎和支持堕胎之间。

Polls show that most Americans think abortion should be legal in some form.

民意调查显示，大多数美国人认为堕胎应该以某种形式合法化。

But when it comes to spelling out the exact circumstances of when it should be allowed, or the morals of it, people are much more ambivalent.

但当谈到何时应该允许这种行为的确切情况，或者它的道德意义时，人们的态度就更加矛盾了。

Most of us land in a gray area.

我们大多数人都处于灰色地带。

And in this moment, where the Supreme Court is about to make decisions that could dramatically change abortion in the United States, it's useful to remember that most people, most experiences, have never really fit into a neat binary.

此时此刻，最高法院即将做出可能极大改变美国堕胎情况的决定，记住大多数人、大多数经历从来都没有真正符合一个简洁的二元关系。

When you're trying to figure out what the right thing to do is, it's not as simple as picking which team you're on.

当你试图弄清楚什么是正确的事情时，这并不像选择你所在的团队那么简单。

It's way more murky and complicated than that.

事情比这更加模糊和复杂。

Emma Green So do you feel, having gone through everything that you did, do you still feel like that was God's plan for you?

艾玛·格林：那么，在经历了你所做的一切之后，你是否仍然觉得那是上帝对你的计划？

Yeah.

是的。

I feel like there's a reason why it all happened, whether I see it or not.

我觉得这一切的发生都是有原因的，无论我是否看到。

I don't feel like it was a mistake at all.

我不觉得这是一个错误。

I do feel-- I mean, I still feel anger to this day that it even happened, period.

我确实感觉到——我的意思是，直到今天我仍然对这件事的发生感到愤怒，就这样。

But I don't feel any regret.

但我并不觉得有什么遗​​憾。

I feel like it was the right choice for me.

我觉得这对我来说是正确的选择。

I would do it all over again.

我会重来一遍。

I would choose life for Cora and Layla, as much as I know that it caused pain, because they were my daughters, and I loved them, and I cared for them.

我会为科拉和莱拉选择生命，尽管我知道这会带来痛苦，因为她们是我的女儿，我爱她们，我关心她们。

And similarly, I'm not getting pregnant, because I know that I would have to have another baby that could have another diagnosis.

同样，我不会怀孕，因为我知道我必须再生一个孩子，这样可能会有另一种诊断。

And I don't want to put myself in that situation where I might have to choose.

我不想让自己陷入必须做出选择的境地。

I might not choose life.

我可能不会选择生活。

I don't know.

我不知道。

For all of the clarity Rebecca has come to over the last few years, she's ended up with much less certainty about her life and life's big questions.

尽管丽贝卡在过去几年里变得越来越清晰，但她最终对自己的生活和生活中的重大问题却变得越来越不确定。

She never got her picture-perfect minivan full of kids.

她从来没有得到过一辆装满孩子的完美小型货车。

This grieves her, leaves her feeling unsettled.

这让她感到悲伤，让她感到不安。

But maybe that's where God meets us, she thinks, in that broken, uncertain place.

但也许那就是上帝与我们相遇的地方，她想，在那个破碎、不确定的地方。

Ira Glass Emma Green.

艾拉·格拉斯艾玛·格林。

She's a staff writer at The New Yorker.

她是《纽约客》的特约撰稿人。

She reported this story in collaboration with The Atlantic and the podcast The Experiment, where this story is also appearing.

她与《大西洋月刊》和播客《实验》合作报道了这个故事，这个故事也出现在播客中。

Coming up, two people disagreeing about something so big, so fundamental, so important in their lives, but I have to say, doing it in the nicest possible way.

接下来，两个人在生活中如此重大、如此根本、如此重要的事情上存在分歧，但我不得不说，以尽可能最好的方式去做。

That's in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.

稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。

It's This American Life.

这就是美国生活。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Today's program, "But I Did Everything Right," stories where people do what they have been told is best, they do what they think is right, and it doesn't come out the way they thought.

今天的节目“但我做的一切都是对的”，故事中人们做了他们被告知最好的事情，他们做了他们认为正确的事情，但事情并没有按照他们想象的方式发展。

We've arrived at Act Two of our program-- Act Two, "Brian and Peg."

我们已经到了节目的第二幕——第二幕“布莱恩和佩格”。

So when we started to put together today's program about trying to do everything right and where that leads, I remember this conversation that I had this past May with two people, Brian and Peg, who had tried to do everything right.

因此，当我们开始整理今天的计划，讨论如何努力把每件事都做好以及这会带来什么结果时，我记得去年五月我与布莱恩和佩格两个人进行的对话，他们试图把每件事都做好。

The day I met them was also the day that I learned about this disagreement they have.

我见到他们的那天也是我了解到他们之间存在分歧的那天。

This was in an outdoor amphitheater in a public park in Queens.

这是在皇后区一个公园的露天剧场里。

So Brian, can I record you for a little bit as you're organizing things?

布莱恩，我可以在你整理东西的时候给你录一段录音吗？

Just understand that I'm not very organized.

请理解我不是很有组织性。

[LAUGHS]

[笑]

That day, Brian, Walter, and a bunch of other volunteers were setting up a local memorial event for people who had died of COVID in Queens in New York, which was especially hard-hit by the pandemic early on.

那天，布莱恩、沃尔特和其他一群志愿者正在纽约皇后区为死于新冠病毒的人们举办一场当地纪念活动，该地区在早期就受到了新冠疫情的严重打击。

The memorial was Brian's idea, to have an event where portraits of Queens residents who died of COVID would be placed on empty chairs in this amphitheater.

这座纪念馆是布莱恩的想法，举办一个活动，将死于新冠肺炎的皇后区居民的肖像放在这个圆形剧场的空椅子上。

People who loved them would gather around.

爱他们的人会聚集在一起。

There were speeches remembering those who passed.

有人发表讲话纪念那些逝去的人。

When we first came up with this idea, I mean, we did not imagine the scope of what it is today.

我的意思是，当我们第一次提出这个想法时，我们并没有想象到它今天的范围。

We thought there was just going to be a few of us in the park with a few benches, maybe 20 or 30 of us.

我们以为公园里只有我们几个人，有几张长凳，也许有 20 或 30 个人。

How quickly did it grow?

它增长得有多快？

Brian Walter It took off.

布莱恩·沃尔特 它起飞了。

All of the tickets were gone in 25 minutes.

25分钟内所有门票都被抢购一空。

Yep, 200 tickets.

是的，200张门票。

I'm sorry.

对不起。

I'm going to bother you one more time.

我再麻烦你一次。

If we can just raise it--

如果我们能提高它——

An energetic, gray-haired woman interrupts us.

一位精力充沛、头发花白的女士打断了我们。

That's Peg.

那是佩格。

But if you can just raise it, it would help.

但如果你能提高它，那就会有帮助。

But get that done first.

但先把这件事做好。

Brian Walter Mom's always the boss.

布莱恩·沃尔特 妈妈永远是老大。

Is that your mom?

那是你妈妈吗？

Brian Walter Yes, that's my mother.

布莱恩·沃尔特 是的，那是我的母亲。

What's been your role in organizing this?

您在组织这次活动中扮演了什么角色？

[LAUGHS] What's been my role?

[笑]我的角色是什么？

Oh, that's a good question.

哦，这是个好问题。

I kind of help Brian flesh out his ideas.

我有点帮助布莱恩充实他的想法。

We discussed/argued over many things.

我们讨论/争论了很多事情。

It's, why don't you try this?

是的，你为什么不试试这个呢？

I don't know if that's going to work.

我不知道这是否有效。

Why don't we do it this way?

我们为什么不这样做呢？

Back and forth.

来回。

I guess, in some ways, I'm the more practical person.

我想，在某些方面，我是一个更实际的人。

Peg's practical experience running things includes 30 years as director of religious education for a couple of Catholic churches, supervising over 20 teachers, hundreds of kids.

Peg 的实际管理经验包括 30 年担任几座天主教堂的宗教教育主任，监督 20 多名教师和数百名孩子。

Her husband, John, Brian's dad, got COVID right at the beginning, April 2020, and he died a few weeks later.

她的丈夫约翰（布莱恩的父亲）于 2020 年 4 月年初感染了新冠病毒，几周后去世。

And of course, he's right over there today, and-- right here.

当然，他今天就在那里，而且——就在这里。

Wow.

哇。

Peg Walter So-- so that's him.

佩格·沃尔特 那么——那就是他。

Yeah.

是的。

In the portrait, he's wearing a New York Mets hat and a plaid shirt.

在肖像中，他戴着纽约大都会队的帽子，穿着格子衬衫。

So it's been very difficult.

所以这是非常困难的。

It's one of those things that [SIGHS] you just have to take baby steps to get over.

这是[叹气]你只需要采取小步骤就能克服的事情之一。

Which brings me to the thing this story is actually about-- this disagreement she has with her son Brian.

这让我想到了这个故事的真正主题——她与儿子布莱恩的分歧。

Brian has told other reporters, and he's told me, that he was wracked with guilt with the knowledge that he gave his dad COVID.

布莱恩告诉其他记者，他也告诉我，当他知道自己把新冠病毒传染给父亲时，他感到非常内疚。

Brian lives in the apartment upstairs from his parents in kind of a traditional Queens two-family house.

布莱恩住在父母楼上的公寓里，是皇后区传统的两户住宅。

And when COVID happened, he would go out each day to his job at the MTA.

当新冠疫情发生时，他每天都会去 MTA 上班。

He would ride in the subway.

他会乘坐地铁。

He would work in the tunnels with other people.

他会和其他人一起在隧道里工作。

And he believes he brought home the virus to his dad.

他相信他把病毒带回家给了他的父亲。

Peg is certain he's wrong, that her husband John did not get COVID from Brian.

佩格确信自己错了，她的丈夫约翰并不是从布莱恩那里感染新冠病毒的。

In fact, it was the other way around.

事实上，情况恰恰相反。

John got sick first.

约翰先生病了。

And Brian--

还有布莱恩——

OK, Brian got sick-- I am positive that he got it the night that he took John to the hospital.

好吧，布莱恩生病了——我确信他在带约翰去医院的那天晚上就生病了。

From sitting next to John-- well, first of all, he had to help his father down the stairs into the car.

从坐在约翰旁边——好吧，首先，他必须帮助他的父亲下楼进入汽车。

And then he sat in the car and drove him first to the urgent care, and then into Manhattan, to Mount Sinai.

然后他坐进车里，先开车送他去急诊室，然后开进曼哈顿，开到西奈山。

I'm sure that's how Brian came down with it.

我确信布莱恩就是这么接受的。

Because two days-- three days later, he tested positive.

因为两天——三天后，他的检测结果呈阳性。

And he had not been sick the whole time.

而且他自始至终都没有生病。

And even though he lived upstairs from us, in an apartment upstairs, he used to come home from work, go upstairs.

尽管他住在我们楼上，在楼上的公寓里，但他常常下班回家，上楼。

And sometimes John would say, he didn't even stop in to say hello.

有时约翰会说，他甚至没有停下来打招呼。

And I said, I know that.

我说，我知道。

He's taking a shower.

他正在洗澡。

He'll be down in a few minutes.

几分钟后他就会下来。

And he'd come down with mask on, with gloves.

他戴着口罩、戴着手套下来。

I mean, he was being super careful.

我的意思是，他非常小心。

And I really don't think that he got it any other way but from John.

我真的不认为他是从约翰那里得到的。

And I don't know how John or I got COVID.

我不知道约翰或我是如何感染新冠病毒的。

And believe me, I've stayed awake long enough at night trying to figure it out.

相信我，我已经彻夜未眠试图弄清楚这一点。

But Brian worries that he gave it to his dad.

但布莱恩担心他把它给了他的父亲。

He worries he did, but I'm positive he didn't.

他担心他这么做了，但我确信他没有这么做。

I'm sorry, I keep--

对不起，我保留——

No, no, no. Peg Walter I talk with my hands, and I keep hitting your mic.

不，不，不。佩格·沃尔特（Peg Walter） 我用手说话，我一直敲着你的麦克风。

I'm sorry.

对不起。

That's interesting, though, that he's chosen to believe that he's to blame.

不过，有趣的是，他选择相信自己应该受到责备。

I know.

我知道。

I know that.

我知道。

But I'm positive that he's not.

但我确信他不是。

I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but I'm positive that he's not.

我的意思是，也许我错了，但我确信他没有错。

Because for John to have been that sick to go in the hospital, he must have gotten it days and days earlier.

因为约翰病得那么严重，必须住院，他一定是在几天前就得病了。

And then why wasn't Brian sick until after John went to the hospital?

那么为什么直到约翰去医院之后布莱恩才生病呢？

Why do you think he thinks that he gave it to him?

你认为他为什么认为这是他给他的？

I just think it's-- that's the way he is, that he feels he gave it to him.

我只是觉得他就是这样，他觉得这是他给了他的。

It's funny.

很有趣。

I've heard about people who blame themselves.

我听说过有人责备自己。

It's almost like it gives him more control of the situation if he thinks he was to blame.

如果他认为自己应该受到责备，这几乎可以让他更好地控制局势。

It wasn't just, like, a bolt of lightning or something hittting him.

这不仅仅是一道闪电或什么东西击中了他。

Of course, so many families are in this situation, wondering how somebody they love got COVID.

当然，很多家庭都面临这种情况，想知道他们所爱的人是如何感染新冠病毒的。

Why did Brian choose to believe this about his dad?

为什么布莱恩选择相信他父亲的这一点？

Why wasn't he convinced by his mom?

为什么他不被妈妈说服呢？

He was too busy, that particular day, to have a real conversation with me about the whole thing, but I dropped by his house later.

那天他太忙了，没时间和我真正谈论整件事，但后来我顺便去了他家。

His dad, John, was a history buff, and a Civil War expert and researcher.

他的父亲约翰是一位历史爱好者、内战专家和研究员。

And by the doorbell, there's an example of John's sense of humor.

在门铃旁边，有一个约翰幽默感的例子。

There's a bronze plaque that reads, "On this site in 1897, nothing happened."

有一块青铜牌匾，上面写着：“1897 年，这个地点什么也没发生。”

Brian told me, back when his dad first died, he felt so guilty.

布莱恩告诉我，当他父亲第一次去世时，他感到非常内疚。

Since he got COVID too, he says, it really hit home what his dad must have gone through to have a case that was even worse than his.

他说，自从他也感染了新冠病毒后，这确实让他明白了他父亲一定经历过什么，才得了比他更严重的病例。

And he says he thought about it all the time.

他说他一直在思考这个问题。

How would he let this happen to his dad?

他怎么会让这样的事情发生在他的父亲身上呢？

And what made it especially hard?

是什么让事情变得特别困难？

They were doing everything right, being as careful as they knew how.

他们做的每件事都是正确的，并且尽其所能地小心谨慎。

We thought we were doing everything correct.

我们以为我们做的一切都是正确的。

I mean, everything that the CDC said-- my mom watches CNN on a good day.

我的意思是，疾病预防控制中心所说的一切——我妈妈在美好的一天看 CNN。

She was watching it double during that time.

那段时间她看了两遍。

And everything they said, we would wipe everything down.

他们所说的一切，我们都会抹去。

We had bleach outside.

我们外面有漂白剂。

We had wipes outside.

我们在外面准备了湿巾。

We and everything.

我们和一切。

And yet he still got it.

但他还是明白了。

Remember March 2020, when all this was so new, and we were figuring out how to deal with it?

还记得 2020 年 3 月，当时这一切都是新的，我们正在考虑如何应对它？

And I was the one who was shopping for the family, and I would separate their groceries.

我是为家人购物的人，我会把他们的杂货分开。

[LAUGHS] We had a grocery drop-off procedure.

[笑]我们有一个杂货配送程序。

And we discussed it at length, about how we were going to do this.

我们详细讨论了我们将如何做到这一点。

Through text messages, we had meetings where I would be at the top of the stairs, and they would be at the bottom.

通过短信，我们举行会议，我在楼梯的顶部，他们在底部。

And we'd go through about, I'm going to drop the stuff off for you.

我们会商量，我要把东西交给你。

I'm going to leave it there.

我要把它留在那里。

Do not come out until I tell you that I'm upstairs.

在我告诉你我在楼上之前，不要出来。

And that's what we did.

这就是我们所做的。

And then they would come out.

然后他们就会出来。

My mother would come out, and she would wipe everything down.

我妈妈会出来，她会把所有东西都擦掉。

And we had a whole decontamination station set up in the front of the house.

我们在房子前面设立了一个完整的净化站。

I did the whole gloves in the store, and not touching the phone.

我在店里戴了整个手套，没有碰手机。

And I even had, in my car, a bottle of water and a container of soap that, more than once, I would just wash my hands in the parking lot before coming home.

我什至在我的车里有一瓶水和一盒肥皂，我不止一次在回家前在停车场洗手。

And we thought we were doing everything correct.

我们认为我们所做的一切都是正确的。

So when you picture giving it to your dad, what's the scenario that you run-- that runs through your head?

所以，当你想象把它送给你的父亲时，你脑海中浮现的场景是什么？

You don't know what happened.

你不知道发生了什么。

I mean, I can tell you that my dad didn't leave the house, and I was the only one going out.

我的意思是，我可以告诉你，我爸爸没有出门，只有我一个人出去。

So my mom couldn't have given it to him.

所以我妈妈不可能把它给他。

My kids didn't see him, so they couldn't have given it to him.

我的孩子们没有看到他，所以他们不可能把它给他。

So I was the only kind of link at that point.

所以我是当时唯一的联系方式。

So of course, it had to have come from me.

所以当然，它必须来自我。

How else did he get it?

不然他是怎么得到的呢？

Oh, wait.

哦，等等。

I hadn't put that together.

我没有把它们放在一起。

You're the only one in the whole house who's coming in and out?

整个屋子里就你一个人进出吗？

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah, since St. Patrick's Day-- since even before St. Patrick's Day.

是的，从圣帕特里克节开始——甚至从圣帕特里克节之前开始。

Again, this is 2020, very beginning of lockdown.

再说一遍，这是 2020 年，封锁的开始。

My parents did not leave this house since the beginning of March.

自从三月初以来，我的父母就没有离开过这个家。

And I was the only one coming in and out.

而我是唯一进出的人。

So you're the only contact with the outside world.

所以你是与外界的唯一联系。

Yep.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Ira Glass So if the virus got to him at all, you were the only one who could have brought it in.

艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）因此，如果病毒感染了他，那么你是唯一一个可以将病毒带入体内的人。

Right.

对。

That's why I keep thinking that.

这就是为什么我一直这么想。

Yeah, because I'm the only one going out.

是的，因为只有我一个人出去。

I've got to say, it's really hard to see any way around that.

我不得不说，真的很难找到任何解决办法。

Brian knows all of his mom's arguments, that when you look at the dates, that Brian started showing symptoms after his dad got sick, so Brian must have gotten COVID from his dad and not the other way around.

布莱恩知道他妈妈的所有论点，当你查看日期时，布莱恩在他父亲生病后开始出现症状，所以布莱恩一定是从他父亲那里感染了新冠病毒，而不是相反。

Yeah, I mean, her accounting is definitely correct.

是的，我的意思是，她的会计绝对是正确的。

I guess what it doesn't explain is, it still doesn't explain how he got it.

我想它没有解释的是，它仍然没有解释他是如何得到它的。

In my mind, it still comes back to the fact that I was bringing everything in.

在我看来，这仍然是我把所有东西都带进来的事实。

So it's not even so much if I personally had it in me.

所以如果我个人有的话，那也不算什么。

Because again, we did not connect, so we were not together.

因为我们没有联系，所以我们没有在一起。

So it wasn't that I breathed it on him.

所以这不是我向他吹的。

But bringing everything into the house, I worry about, did I grab the wrong lemonade?

但当我把所有东西都带进屋里时，我担心我是否拿错了柠檬水？

Did somebody sneeze on this lemonade before I brought it in?

在我把柠檬水带进来之前，有人对着它打喷嚏吗？

And he got it, and he picked it up, and that's where he got it?

他得到了它，他捡起了它，这就是他得到它的地方？

I'm not saying she's wrong.

我并不是说她错了。

We just don't know.

我们只是不知道。

That's funny.

那很好笑。

You're not saying she's wrong.

你并不是说她错了。

She is definitely saying you're wrong.

她肯定是在说你错了。

[LAUGHS] That's my mom.

[笑]那是我妈妈。

Yup, that's Mom.

是的，那就是妈妈。

But I can also tell Mom also doesn't want this hanging over me.

但我也可以告诉妈妈，她也不希望这件事困扰着我。

A mother's first job is to always console her child, and help her child think the best, and whatnot.

母亲的首要工作就是始终安慰她的孩子，并帮助她的孩子往最好的方面想，等等。

So I'm not saying that she's saying this just to help me get over it.

所以我并不是说她这么说只是为了帮助我克服它。

But of course, she's never going to say-- even if she knew definitively, she is never going to say, oh, you did it.

但当然，她永远不会说——即使她明确知道，她也永远不会说，哦，你做到了。

Never going to say that.

永远不会这么说。

She's going to say, Brian, you don't know that you did it.

她会说，布莱恩，你不知道你做到了。

There's nothing to prove it.

没有什么可以证明这一点。

Don't beat yourself up about it.

不要为此自责。

Let it go.

放手吧。

And that's the way it's always going to be.

事情永远都是这样。

In the end, of course, they'll never know.

当然，最终他们永远不会知道。

His mom can believe what she wants.

他妈妈可以相信她想要的。

Brian will believe what he believes.

布莱恩会相信他所相信的。

But this is really a classic situation, eventually, with something you can't answer.

但这确实是一个典型的情况，最终，你无法回答。

You think, and you think, and you think.

你想，你想，你想。

It gets to the point where you just can't think about it anymore.

事情已经到了你无法再去想的地步。

At that point, the only comfort you have is, if you did screw up, it wasn't for lack of trying.

到那时，你唯一能感到安慰的是，如果你确实搞砸了，那也不是因为缺乏尝试。

Peg said to me that at some point, you have to let it go because you did everything you could.

佩格对我说，在某些时候，你必须放手，因为你已经做了你能做的一切。

You did everything right.

你做的一切都是对的。

Act 3, "Bought the Farm." So we close out today's program about people trying to do the right thing with something that happened to one of our staffers here, David Kestenbaum, and his family.

第三幕，“买下农场”。因此，我们今天的节目以发生在我们的一位员工 David Kestenbaum 及其家人身上的事情为主题，讲述了人们试图做正确的事情。

They got this kid's toy, an educational toy that's been popular for decades.

他们得到了这个儿童玩具，这是一种流行了几十年的益智玩具。

And his family followed the instructions that came with it to the letter.

他的家人严格遵守了随信附上的指示。

And they ended up learning a lesson I feel pretty confident the manufacturers did not intend.

他们最终吸取了教训，我确信制造商无意这样做。

Here's David.

这是大卫。

The ant farm was a gift to our kids from their grandparents.

蚂蚁农场是我们孩子的祖父母送给他们的礼物。

We were all excited for it-- though if I'm honest, maybe mostly me.

我们都为此感到兴奋——不过说实话，也许主要是我自己。

I'd suggested it.

我建议的。

I never had one growing up, but they seemed so cool.

我从小就没有养过一个，但它们看起来很酷。

It's basically two sheets of see-through plastic, a half inch apart, made it into this frame.

它基本上是由两片透明塑料制成的，相距半英寸，制成了这个框架。

You get a bunch of sand to put in it.

你拿一堆沙子放进去。

And then when you mail in the coupon, two tubes of live ants come to your house in the mail.

然后，当您邮寄优惠券时，两管活蚂蚁会通过邮件到达您的家。

The promotional material read, "See the amazing behavior of live ants," with a photo of the ants digging elaborate tunnels.

宣传材料上写着“看看活蚂蚁的惊人行为”，并附上一张蚂蚁挖掘复杂隧道的照片。

"Clean tunneling sand," it said, and also, "2016 National Parenting Product Awards winner." So we set it up, put the ants in as directed.

它说：“清洁隧道沙子”，同时也是“2016 年国家育儿产品奖获得者”。所以我们把它设置好，按照指示把蚂蚁放进去。

There were, like, 100 of them.

大约有 100 个。

The instructions say to feed them a crumb every week and add a few drops of water now and then.

说明书上说每周给它们喂一点面包屑，时不时加几滴水。

And at first, it was amazing.

起初，这真是太神奇了。

The ants got to work running in all different directions, over top of each other, picking up little bits of sand in their jaws.

蚂蚁们开始向各个不同的方向奔跑，一个接一个地跑，用嘴叼起一点点沙子。

It was this chaotic construction site.

这是一片混乱的建筑工地。

Here's a little daily diary based on photos I took at the time.

这是根据我当时拍摄的照片写的小日记。

"March 9, we put them in.

“3月9日，我们把它们放进去了。

10:50 PM, digging first exploratory tunnels.

晚上 10:50，挖掘第一条探索隧道。

Energetic, fast-moving.

精力充沛，行动迅速。

Digging, digging, digging.

挖，挖，挖。

March 10, morning, 8:00 AM, they made a loop, connected two tunnels, reached the bottom."

3 月 10 日早上 8:00，他们绕了一圈，连接了两条隧道，到达了底部。”

I shot a time-lapse video of them working, like you'd see on a TV nature special.

我拍摄了他们工作的延时视频，就像你在电视自然特别节目中看到的那样。

It really was like a secret cross-section of an anthill.

它真的就像一个蚁丘的秘密横截面。

But then came the thing they don't touch on it all in the brochure.

但后来出现了他们在小册子中没有提及的事情。

And for us, it really became the main thing.

对我们来说，这确实成为了最重要的事情。

Later that day, 1:25 PM, our second day with the ant farm.

那天晚些时候，下午 1:25，这是我们在蚂蚁农场的第二天。

There's a photo on my phone-- close-up of a dead ant buried in the sand.

我的手机上有一张照片——一只埋在沙子里的死蚂蚁的特写。

And a few days later, this video I happened to take--

几天后，我偶然拍到了这个视频——

And that's where the bodies are, in there.

那就是尸体所在的地方。

And over here.

还有这里。

[GROANS]

[呻吟声]

Not only were some of the ants dying, but the other ants were picking up dead ones and carrying them, like soldiers in battle.

不仅有一些蚂蚁死了，其他蚂蚁也像战场上的士兵一样捡起死去的蚂蚁。

And they'd been taking the bodies and body pieces-- there's an ant carrying another's head-- over into the corner and burying them.

他们把尸体和尸体碎片——有一只蚂蚁驮着另一只蚂蚁的头——带到角落里埋掉。

It was this mass grave.

就是这个万人坑。

[GROANS] It seemed kind of outrageous that this is a kid's toy.

[呻吟]这是一个孩子的玩具，这似乎有点令人无法容忍。

I mean, I suppose death is part of other kid's games, but it's imaginary.

我的意思是，我想死亡是其他孩子游戏的一部分，但它是想象的。

This was not imaginary, and it really was hard to watch.

这不是凭空想象出来的，也实在是让人难以想象。

Every morning, I'd look at the ant farm sitting on the counter in our kitchen.

每天早上，我都会看看厨房柜台上的蚂蚁农场。

Day after day, they'd carry the new body to the corner and add them to the pile.

日复一日，他们会把新尸体搬到角落里，然后添加到尸体堆中。

That guy is still a little alive, yeah.

那家伙还活着，是的。

[GROANS]

[呻吟声]

The ant farm was basically a six-week exercise in watching things die.

蚂蚁农场基本上是一个为期六周的观察事物死亡的练习。

Eventually, there were just two ants left, and they did not seem well.

最后只剩下两只蚂蚁了，而且看起来情况不太好。

They were having trouble walking.

他们走路有困难。

Our kids honestly were sort of fine with this.

老实说，我们的孩子对此表示满意。

Our younger son, who is eight, said, this is horrible.

我们八岁的小儿子说，这太可怕了。

But I think mostly because he had in his mind that they would be pets, like a dog or something.

但我想主要是因为他认为它们会成为宠物，比如狗什么的。

His brother, who is one year older, nine, said, we could just buy more.

他的弟弟比他大一岁，九岁，他说，我们可以买更多。

They stopped looking at it and went on with their lives.

他们不再看它，继续他们的生活。

But my wife and I felt terrible.

但我和我的妻子感觉很糟糕。

The ant farm made us anxious.

蚂蚁农场让我们着急。

We felt responsible, like maybe we'd failed the ants.

我们感到自己有责任，就好像我们辜负了蚂蚁一样。

But also just so much death.

但也有那么多的死亡。

There on our kitchen counter every morning, the mass grave.

每天早上我们的厨房柜台上都有乱葬坑。

What exactly were we looking at?

我们到底在看什么？

What was this kid's toy supposed to be teaching us?

这个孩子的玩具应该教我们什么？

So I called up a scientist, Deborah Gordon at Stanford, who has studied these kinds of ants, to ask, what the hell?

所以我打电话给斯坦福大学的一位科学家黛博拉·戈登（Deborah Gordon），她研究过这些蚂蚁，我问她到底是怎么回事？

She calmly explained the mass graves.

她平静地解释了乱葬坑的情况。

She says, they're actually middens, meaning garbage heaps.

她说，它们实际上是“midden”，意思是垃圾堆。

The ants aren't burying their dead as much as taking out the trash.

蚂蚁不是埋葬死者，而是倒垃圾。

She says this may have evolved because dead ants sometimes carry disease.

她说，这可能是因为死去的蚂蚁有时携带疾病而进化而来的。

Well, they take the dead to the furthest possible place, which ends up being the corner.

好吧，他们把死者带到尽可能远的地方，最终是角落。

If you gave them a really large space to move around, they'd take them even further away.

如果你给他们一个很大的活动空间，他们就会把他们带到更远的地方。

I've seen them go out on the foraging trails 10, 15 meters away and dump the ant.

我见过它们在10、15米外的觅食小道上把蚂蚁扔掉。

Wow.

哇。

Deborah Gordon So those are ones that I think must be infected in some way.

黛博拉·戈登（Deborah Gordon）所以我认为这些人一定是以某种方式被感染的。

That's a lot of work.

这是很多工作。

What are they dying of in here?

他们在这里死于什么？

Do they die of old age?

他们会因年老而死吗？

Is their heart-- do they have a heart?

他们的心——他们有心吗？

Like, the way a heart is only good for however many beats.

就像心脏只能跳动多少次一样。

What fails in them?

他们什么地方失败了？

I don't think anybody knows how ants die of old age.

我认为没有人知道蚂蚁是如何因年老而死亡的。

Ants do have something like a heart, and a tiny brain.

蚂蚁确实有心脏之类的东西，还有一个微小的大脑。

The ants in the farm, they're all females, she says.

她说，农场里的蚂蚁都是雌性。

Males are only alive for a couple of weeks to mate.

雄性的寿命只有几周才能交配。

They have wings.

他们有翅膀。

One of the things I've come to appreciate about ants is how alien they are.

我开始欣赏蚂蚁的原因之一是它们是多么的陌生。

And maybe the most alien thing about them is that they don't seem to get discouraged.

也许他们最奇怪的一点是他们似乎不会灰心丧气。

How do you see that in them?

您如何看待他们的这一点？

Deborah Gordon Well, I've done lots of mean things to ants in my time.

黛博拉·戈登：嗯，我这辈子对蚂蚁做过很多卑鄙的事。

One of the experiments that I did was to put out piles of toothpicks for them to clear away.

我所做的其中一个实验是放出一堆牙签让他们清理。

And you can just keep putting out the toothpicks, and they keep taking them to the edge of the mound.

你只要不断地拿出牙签，他们就会不断地把牙签带到土堆的边缘。

And if more toothpicks show up, they just take more toothpicks.

如果出现更多的牙签，他们就会拿更多的牙签。

And I've never seen an ant sort of sit down and say, oh, come on, not another toothpick.

我从来没有见过一只蚂蚁坐下来说，哦，来吧，不要再拿一根牙签了。

There's no way I'm doing this.

我没有办法这样做。

They just keep doing things.

他们只是继续做事。

And in fact, if you watch ants closely, a lot of what they do just doesn't work.

事实上，如果你仔细观察蚂蚁，就会发现它们所做的很多事情都是行不通的。

I mean, if they were easily discouraged, they'd never get anywhere.

我的意思是，如果他们很容易灰心丧气，他们就一事无成。

It's very hard to watch ants without wanting to help them.

看着蚂蚁而不想去帮助它们是很难的。

Have you ever done that?

你曾经这样做过吗？

Deborah Gordon I used to try to help them, in the beginning.

黛博拉·戈登（Deborah Gordon）一开始我曾尝试帮助他们。

But I don't anymore, because I'm not very good at helping them.

但我不再这样做了，因为我不太擅长帮助他们。

They respond mostly to smell.

它们主要对气味做出反应。

And so if you see the ants trying to carry something, and you try to carry it for them, as soon as you pick it up, you've changed the smell, and you've changed what it is for them.

因此，如果你看到蚂蚁试图搬运某些东西，并且你试图为它们搬运东西，那么一旦你拿起它，你就改变了气味，并且你也改变了它们对它们的意义。

The thing she told me that stuck with me most about what their lives are like in the little toy and farm is that their lives are pointless, because there is no queen.

她告诉我，关于他们在小玩具和农场里的生活，最让我印象深刻的是，他们的生活毫无意义，因为没有女王。

These are just worker ants separated from their colony in this fake little Truman Show world, where if they dig too far, they hit a plastic wall.

这些只是在这个虚假的杜鲁门秀世界中与蚁群分离的工蚁，如果它们挖得太远，就会撞到塑料墙。

In fact, she says, they're stuck in a little repeating loop, waiting for a thing that never happens.

事实上，她说，他们陷入了一个小小的重复循环，等待着永远不会发生的事情。

She says basically, these ants are supposed to be going out, foraging for food, and bringing it back to the nest, and then waiting until they come into contact with enough other ants coming back before going out again.

她说，基本上，这些蚂蚁应该出去寻找食物，然后将其带回巢穴，然后等到它们接触到足够多的其他蚂蚁回来后再出去。

They can tell if an ant has been outside because the sun changes how they smell.

它们可以辨别蚂蚁是否在外面，因为太阳会改变它们的气味。

But of course, there is no going out.

但当然，没有出去。

No one leaves the ant farm.

没有人离开蚂蚁农场。

So they're probably in some kind of a feedback loop that isn't what they usually do.

所以他们可能处于某种反馈循环中，而这并不是他们通常所做的。

Because when they go up to another ant, they're never getting a signal that, oh, I've been out and I found food.

因为当它们走向另一只蚂蚁时，它们永远不会收到“哦，我已经出去并且找到食物了”的信号。

And I found food, yeah.

我找到了食物，是的。

David Kestenbaum I see.

大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆 我明白了。

I wonder what the last ant is going to die of.

我想知道最后一只蚂蚁会因为什么而死。

The last ant is just going to stand around, because nothing will happen to it that has any meaning.

最后一只蚂蚁只会站在那里，因为它不会发生任何有意义的事情。

Knowing this somehow changed things for me.

知道这一点在某种程度上改变了我的事情。

Toward the end of our time with the ants, the daily check-ins felt a little less like grim death watches.

在我们与蚂蚁相处的时间即将结束时，每天的签到感觉不再那么像可怕的死亡手表。

I found myself rooting for them and their meaningless lives.

我发现自己支持他们和他们毫无意义的生活。

It was impressive, how they just kept going.

他们如何继续前进，令人印象深刻。

One day, we were sure it was over.

有一天，我们确信一切都结束了。

That morning, I hadn't seen any motion at all on the ant farm.

那天早上，我没有看到蚂蚁农场有任何动静。

But then my son saw something down in the corner.

但后来我儿子看到角落里有东西。

There was one left-- the last ant.

只剩下一只了——最后一只蚂蚁。

"What's it doing?" I asked.

“它在做什么？”我问。

"It's doing what it needs to do," he said.

“它正在做它需要做的事情，”他说。

I saw the ant again the next day, emerging from a tunnel, carrying a piece of sand in her jaw to nowhere.

第二天我又看到了这只蚂蚁，它从隧道里出来，嘴里叼着一块沙子，不知去向。

Ira Glass David Kestenbaum.

艾拉·格拉斯·大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。

He's our program's senior editor.

他是我们节目的高级编辑。

Our program was produced today by Aviva DeKornfeld and Chloee Weiner, with help from Diane Wu.

今天我们的节目由 Aviva DeKornfeld 和 Chloee Weiner 在 Diane Wu 的帮助下制作。

The people who put together today's program include Bim Adewunmi, Elna Baker, Susan Burton, Sean Cole, Damien Graef, Miki Meek, Stowe Nelson, Katherine Rae Mondo, Alix Spiegel, Robyn Semien, Laura Starcheski, Jessica Soriano, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, and Julie Whitaker.

今天节目的制作人包括 Bim Adewunmi、Elna Baker、Susan Burton、Sean Cole、Damien Graef、Miki Meek、Stowe Nelson、Katherine Rae Mondo、Alix Spiegel、Robyn Semien、Laura Starcheski、Jessica Soriano、Christopher Swetala、Matt Tierney 和 Julie Whitaker。

Managing editor is Sarah Abdurrahman.

总编辑是萨拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sarah Abdurrahman)。

Our senior editor is David Kestenbaum.

我们的高级编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。

Our executive editor is Emanuele Berry.

我们的执行编辑是 Emanuele Berry。

Special thanks today to Eve Sneider, Gemma Bauer, Emily Patel, Aimee Baron, Katherine Wells, Emily Botein, Julia Longoria, Nick Baumann, Brent Beck of Grandpa Beck's Games, Nina Krstic, and Phil de Vries.

今天特别感谢 Eve Sneider、Gemma Bauer、Emily Patel、Aimee Baron、Katherine Wells、Emily Botein、Julia Longoria、Nick Baumann、Grandpa Beck's Games 的 Brent Beck、Nina Krstic 和 Phil de Vries。

Our website, thisamericanlife.org, where you can stream our archive of over 750 episodes for absolutely free.

我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org，您可以在其中完全免费地观看我们的 750 多集档案。

Also, there's videos, there's lists of favorite shows, tons of other stuff there.

此外，还有视频、最喜欢的节目列表以及大量其他内容。

Again, thisamericanlife.org.

再说一次，thisamericanlife.org。

This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.

《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。

Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.

一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。

You know, his family has the weirdest Halloween tradition I have ever heard of.

你知道，他的家人有我听过的最奇怪的万圣节传统。

Every year, they all dress up as Bruce Springsteen and the E Street Band and go trick or treating.

每年，他们都会打扮成布鲁斯·斯普林斯汀和 E 街乐队的样子，去玩“不给糖就捣蛋”的游戏。

Mom's always the boss.

妈妈永远是老大。

Ira Glass I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life.

艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 我是艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass），下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。

This American Life This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.

This American Life This American Life 与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。