755: The Convert - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #755 | December 3, 2021 755: The Convert Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 755 集 | 2021 年 12 月 3 日 755：转换 注意：《This American Life》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
序言：序言 来自 WBEZ 芝加哥的 Ira Glass，这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
So back in 2012, we ran this completely outrageous story about some stuff that the FBI did about an undercover informant who spied on American Muslims for over a year.
早在 2012 年，我们就报道了这个完全令人愤慨的故事，讲述了联邦调查局对一名监视美国穆斯林一年多的卧底线人所做的一些事情。
And it went badly, like spectacularly badly.
事情进展得很糟糕，非常糟糕。
And some of those people who were spied on, some of the people in the story, sued the US government because of it.
一些被监视的人，故事中的一些人，因此起诉了美国政府。
It's taken years to wind through the courts.
法院花了好几年的时间。
But just last month, it was argued before the US Supreme Court.
但就在上个月，美国最高法院对此进行了争论。
So today, I want to play you the story and also talk about the court case a little.
所以今天我想给大家讲一下这个故事，同时也谈谈这个法庭案件。
Some context for the story before we start, it's about FBI surveillance of Muslims.
在我们开始之前先了解一下这个故事的背景，它是关于联邦调查局对穆斯林的监视。
Ever since 9/11, there's been a ton of that.
自9/11以来，这样的事情已经发生了很多。
And just to give a sense of what that means, our original episode opened in Queens, New York City one Saturday night at a community center.
为了让大家了解这意味着什么，我们的第一集于周六晚上在纽约市皇后区的一个社区中心开播。
Three dozen people show up.
出现了三打人。
Their kids run around before it starts, coffee in the back.
他们的孩子在比赛开始前跑来跑去，在后面喝着咖啡。
It's a workshop run by two lawyers, Ramzi Kassem and Diala Shamas, who were with a project called CLEAR from the City University of New York Law School that gives free legal aid to Muslims who get caught up in counterterrorism surveillance investigations.
这是一个由两位律师 Ramzi Kassem 和 Diala Shamas 举办的研讨会，他们参与了纽约市立大学法学院的一个名为 CLEAR 的项目，该项目为卷入反恐监视调查的穆斯林提供免费法律援助。
So what we want to do today is nothing controversial.
所以我们今天要做的事情是没有争议的。
We just want to arm you with the knowledge of your rights so that you know how to respond when you find yourself, if you find yourself [SPEAKING ARABIC], in that really uncomfortable situation where you have an FBI agent at your door or an NYPD detective at your workplace, asking to talk to you.
我们只是想让您了解自己的权利，以便当您发现自己[说阿拉伯语]处于一种非常不舒服的情况时，您知道如何应对，即您家门口有联邦调查局探员或工作场所有纽约警察局侦探，要求与您交谈。
This is so common.
这种情况很常见。
It happens so often.
这种事经常发生。
Kassem and Shamas told me that sometimes they ask for a show of hands at these workshops, and they learn that every single person in the room has either been visited by law enforcement like this or know somebody who has.
卡西姆和莎马斯告诉我，有时他们会要求在这些研讨会上举手，他们了解到房间里的每个人要么被执法部门这样拜访过，要么认识有人这样做过。
The two attorneys start with a demonstration of what happens in one of those encounters.
两位律师首先演示了其中一次遭遇中发生的情况。
Diala Shamas plays the plainclothes FBI agent who comes to the door.
迪亚拉·莎玛斯饰演找上门来的便衣联邦调查局探员。
Ramzi Kassem plays the guy at home.
拉姆齐·卡塞姆（Ramzi Kassem）扮演家里的那个人。
We're first going to do it the wrong way.
我们首先会以错误的方式去做。
This is how this interaction should not happen.
这种相互作用不应该发生。
Yeah, this is me.
是的，这就是我。
Diala Shamas Great.
迪亚拉·莎玛斯 太棒了。
Can I just come in?
我可以进来吗？
Thanks.
谢谢。
Ramzi Kassem Yeah.
拉姆齐·卡西姆 是的。
Who are you?
你是谁？
I'm sorry, I didn't--
抱歉，我没有——
Oh, my name is Diala.
哦，我叫迪亚拉。
I'm with the FBI.
我是联邦调查局的。
I'm just here to ask you a couple of questions.
我来这里只是想问你几个问题。
Oh, wow, FBI.
哦，哇，联邦调查局。
OK, sure.
好的，当然。
Diala Shamas Nothing to worry about.
迪亚拉·莎玛斯 没什么好担心的。
Just a standard, we're getting to know the neighborhood.
只是一个标准，我们正在了解这个社区。
I'm new here, so--
我是新来的，所以——
Later, in the discussion afterwards, the audience points out that this was a mistake.
后来，在事后的讨论中，观众指出这是一个错误。
He should have asked her ID before letting the FBI agent into his home.
在让联邦调查局特工进入他家之前，他应该先询问她的身份证。
And he doesn't have to answer any questions.
而且他不必回答任何问题。
He could have even asked for a warrant.
他甚至可以要求搜查令。
The crowd also points out that he seems very nervous-- another mistake.
人们还指出他看起来非常紧张——这是另一个错误。
So do you go to the mosque down the street?
那么你去街上的清真寺吗？
Yes, Dardal?
是的，达达尔？
Diala Shamas Dardal, yeah, yeah.
迪亚拉·沙马斯·达达尔，是啊，是啊。
OK, and who's the imam there?
好吧，那儿的伊玛目是谁？
Wait, why are you-- Diala Shamas Oh, I'm just curious.
等等，你为什么—— Diala Shamas 哦，我只是好奇。
It's part of my-- I just want to make sure that I say the right thing when I meet the right people.
这是我的一部分——我只是想确保当我遇到正确的人时，我说正确的话。
Oh, OK.
哦，好吧。
Yeah, no, he's been the imam there for a number of years.
是的，不，他已经担任那里的伊玛目很多年了。
And he's from Egypt.
他来自埃及。
I can't remember his name.
我记不起他的名字了。
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
Diala Shamas Oh, OK.
迪亚拉·莎玛斯 哦，好的。
So is it Mr. Abu Jamil?
那么是阿布·贾米尔先生吗？
No, I don't think that's him.
不，我不认为那是他。
He's one of the leaders.
他是领导者之一。
He's one of the organizers there.
他是那里的组织者之一。
The agent asks who else lives in the house.
代理人询问房子里还有谁住。
She asks, what does he think about the political situation in Egypt?
她问，他对埃及的政治局势有何看法？
Do you have an ID?
你有身份证吗？
Ramzi Kassem Yeah.
拉姆齐·卡西姆 是的。
Yeah, sure.
是的，当然。
Sure, here's my ID.
当然，这是我的身份证。
They talk a little more about politics.
他们更多地谈论政治。
The agent thanks him for his cooperation, says she may come back with more questions.
代理人感谢他的合作，并表示她可能会带着更多问题回来。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Diala Shamas Have a good day.
迪亚拉·莎玛斯祝你有美好的一天。
You should not be applauding that performance.
你不应该为这种表现鼓掌。
What went wrong in this?
这其中到底出了什么问题呢？
Audience [INAUDIBLE]
观众[听不清]
So the brother is pointing out that there was a lot of volunteering of information.
所以兄弟指出有很多自愿提供的信息。
So it's difficult, right?
所以这很难，对吧？
Because I was being sort of friendly.
因为我表现得很友好。
And why wouldn't you volunteer that information if you don't think that you've done anything wrong?
如果您不认为自己做错了什么，为什么不主动提供这些信息呢？
And the problem with that, the two lawyers tell the crowd, is that the more you say, the more you could accidentally be incriminating yourself, especially dangerous, they say, with those moments in the demonstration where Kassem was nervously stumbling around, not sure what to say, trying to remember.
两位律师告诉人群，这样做的问题在于，你说得越多，你就越有可能不小心让自己受罪，他们说，尤其危险的是，在示威中卡西姆紧张地跌跌撞撞，不知道该说什么，试图记住的那些时刻。
Under federal law in the United States, lying to a federal agent is a federal offense.
根据美国联邦法律，向联邦特工撒谎属于联邦犯罪。
It's a crime.
这是犯罪行为。
And it's a crime that's being charged since 9/11 disproportionately against Muslims.
自 9/11 事件以来，这种犯罪行为主要针对穆斯林。
So the moment that you have that interaction with the federal agent-- let's say I didn't remember something.
因此，当你与联邦特工进行互动时，假设我不记得什么了。
And Diala asks me a question-- oh, you're friends with Cyrus.
迪亚拉问我一个问题——哦，你是赛勒斯的朋友。
Where were you last Tuesday?
上周二你在哪里？
And I say, oh, I think we were camping.
我说，哦，我想我们正在露营。
But maybe she spoke to Cyrus before, and Cyrus said something different.
但也许她之前和赛勒斯谈过，而赛勒斯说了不同的话。
So all of a sudden, there's a discrepancy.
所以突然之间就出现了差异。
Either I'm in trouble, or Cyrus is in trouble.
要么我有麻烦，要么赛勒斯有麻烦。
And so even having that very basic conversation--
所以即使进行了非常基本的对话——
Because of this, he tells the group-- over and over he says this-- if the FBI or NYPD comes around asking these general questions, it is best to get a lawyer.
因此，他告诉大家——他一遍又一遍地这样说——如果联邦调查局或纽约警察局过来问这些一般性问题，最好找律师。
We're not saying never talk to them.
我们并不是说永远不要与他们交谈。
That's not what we're saying.
我们不是这么说的。
What we're saying is, do it in a way that is responsible.
我们所说的是，以负责任的方式去做。
And it's nothing controversial.
这没有什么争议。
It's what Martha Stewart does when she was approached by the FBI.
当联邦调查局联系玛莎·斯图尔特时，她就是这么做的。
She didn't talk to them directly.
她没有直接与他们交谈。
She retained lawyers.
她聘请了律师。
When President Clinton was under investigation, he had a team of lawyers.
当克林顿总统接受调查时，他有一个律师团队。
So that's the safe, responsible way to do it.
所以这是安全、负责任的方式。
And it's not being uncooperative.
而且这并不是不合作。
It's actually the most American thing to do.
这实际上是最美国化的事情。
This particular workshop happened in 2012, but CLEAR and other organizations still give workshops like it today.
这个特殊的研讨会于 2012 年举行，但 CLEAR 和其他组织至今仍在举办类似的研讨会。
I called around to a bunch of lawyers from different groups, and I don't know, I had assumed that 20 years since 9/11, the surveillance of Muslim communities would have slowed some.
我给一群来自不同群体的律师打电话，我不知道，我原以为自 9/11 以来的 20 年里，对穆斯林社区的监控会放慢一些。
But everybody told me the same thing.
但每个人都告诉我同样的事情。
It's the same today or greater than it's been in the past.
今天的情况与过去相同，或者说比过去更好。
The Council on American-Islamic Relations' Office in Southern California has more cases of law enforcement knocking on people's doors, plus, in addition to that, a real explosion in Muslim travelers being questioned at the airport.
位于南加州的美国伊斯兰关系委员会办公室收到了更多执法人员上门的案例，除此之外，在机场接受盘问的穆斯林旅客数量也确实激增。
When I reached Ramzi Kassem this week on the phone, the lawyer from that workshop in 2012, he also pointed out that airports are a big deal these days.
本周，当我打电话给 2012 年该研讨会的律师拉姆齐·卡西姆 (Ramzi Kassem) 时，他也指出，如今机场是一件大事。
We're seeing surveillance at airports, where people traveling back from overseas from Muslim-majority countries are having their electronic devices confiscated and all of the data dumped, or they're being questioned at airports and secondary screening.
我们在机场看到监视，从穆斯林占多数的国家从海外返回的人的电子设备被没收，所有数据都被丢弃，或者他们在机场接受询问和二次检查。
Is it legal to take somebody's phone, if they're an American citizen and they're crossing into the country, and take the data?
如果某人是美国公民并且正在越境进入该国，那么拿走某人的手机并获取数据是否合法？
That's a really good question.
这是一个非常好的问题。
It's a contested question.
这是一个有争议的问题。
We fought in court.
我们在法庭上打架。
The government takes the position that the Fourth Amendment does not apply at the border and that an airport is a border.
政府的立场是，第四修正案不适用于边境，机场就是边境。
And so they claim that your phone-- this is the US government's position across administrations-- is that your phone is just like a suitcase that they can search, and that if you're crossing an international border with it, they have the right to that data.
因此他们声称你的手机——这是美国政府在各部门的立场——你的手机就像一个手提箱，他们可以搜查，如果你带着它跨越国际边界，他们有权获取这些数据。
They can take it.
他们可以接受。
They can save it to their databases.
他们可以将其保存到数据库中。
They can share it with partners.
他们可以与合作伙伴分享。
So that's their position.
这就是他们的立场。
Basically, what happened was in the years after 9/11, the FBI built an infrastructure to do surveillance and look for terrorist plots, and now that it's in place, it just chugs along.
基本上，发生的事情是在 9/11 之后的几年里，联邦调查局建立了一个基础设施来进行监视和寻找恐怖分子阴谋，现在它已经就位了，一切都进展顺利。
Under our Constitution, the First Amendment's freedom of religion, it would be illegal for the government to go target somebody for surveillance just because they practice a particular religion.
根据我们的宪法，第一修正案的宗教自由，政府仅仅因为某人信奉某种特定宗教而对其进行监视是非法的。
They can't go and knock on their door to ask you a few questions.
他们不能去敲门问你几个问题。
They can't stop them at the airport.
他们无法在机场阻止他们。
They can't investigate simply because they're Muslim.
他们不能仅仅因为他们是穆斯林就进行调查。
And the case that you're about to hear-- the case that was argued at the Supreme Court last month; it's called FBI versus Fazaga-- at its heart is about that.
你们即将听到的案件——上个月在最高法院辩论的案件；这就是《FBI vs Fazaga》——其核心就是这个。
It's a landmark case about whether the government's actions gathering information on Muslim citizens since 9-11 have been constitutional.
这是一个具有里程碑意义的案例，说明政府自“9·11”事件以来收集穆斯林公民信息的行为是否符合宪法。
The tactics used by the FBI in this particular case are tactics that they often use when they surveil Muslim communities, like using informants.
联邦调查局在本案中使用的策略是他们监视穆斯林社区时经常使用的策略，例如使用线人。
The last time the FBI publicly stated how many informants it had, the number was 15,000.
FBI 上次公开公布其拥有的线人数量时，该数字为 15,000 人。
But in a bunch of ways, this case is not typical.
但从很多方面来看，这个案例并不典型。
It's an outlier, a case where we can watch everything go wrong.
这是一个异常值，我们可以看到一切都出了问题。
Not just from the point of view of the people being surveilled-- the informant isn't happy how it worked out, and we presume the FBI cannot be too pleased either for reasons that you'll hear.
不仅仅是从被监视者的角度来看——线人对事情的结果并不满意，我们认为联邦调查局也不会太高兴，原因你会听到。
Beyond all that, like I said, it's a compelling and very weird case.
除此之外，正如我所说，这是一个令人信服且非常奇怪的案例。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One: Gym Rat Ira Glass Act 1, Gym Rat.
第一幕：健身房老鼠 Ira Glass 第一幕，健身房老鼠。
So this happened in Orange County, California in 2006.
2006 年，这件事发生在加利福尼亚州奥兰治县。
And at that point, at least one homegrown terrorist had come out of an Orange County mosque and gone to work with Osama bin Laden, was on the FBI'S most wanted terrorist list, and relations between the FBI and Muslims in Orange County, California were already on edge before this story began-- so on edge that the head of the FBI for Los Angeles, Stephen Tidwell, decided that he should do a town meeting at a mosque in Orange County-- it was the Islamic Center of Irvine-- where he said emphatically that the FBI was not monitoring Muslim student groups in the area or the mosque itself.
那时，至少有一名本土恐怖分子从奥兰治县的一座清真寺出来，并与奥萨马·本·拉登合作，进入了联邦调查局的头号通缉恐怖分子名单，而在这个故事开始之前，联邦调查局与加利福尼亚州奥兰治县的穆斯林之间的关系就已经处于紧张状态——如此紧张，以至于洛杉矶联邦调查局负责人斯蒂芬·蒂德韦尔决定他应该在奥兰治县的一座清真寺举行一次城镇会议——那是尔湾的伊斯兰中心——他强调说，联邦调查局没有监视该地区或清真寺本身的穆斯林学生团体。
The crowd did not buy this.
群众对此并不买账。
Somebody in the audience told Tidwell that it would be naive for them to believe that the FBI was not monitoring the mosque.
观众中有人告诉蒂德韦尔，如果他们认为联邦调查局没有监视这座清真寺，那就太天真了。
Everyone should understand that they were being monitored, he said.
他说，每个人都应该明白他们正在受到监视。
Tidwell interrupted.
蒂德韦尔打断道。
If we're going to come to mosque, to come to service, we will tell you we're coming to church.
如果我们要去清真寺做礼拜，我们会告诉你我们要去教堂。
You will send your agents without anybody knowing.
你会在没有人知道的情况下派出你的代理人。
The man in the audience replied, "You will send your agents without anybody knowing."
观众席上的人回答道：“你会在任何人不知情的情况下派出你的代理人。”
Well, what I'm saying, FBI, we will tell you we're coming for the very reason we don't want you to think you're being monitored.
好吧，我想说的是，联邦调查局，我们会告诉你我们来的原因就是我们不想让你认为你正在受到监视。
That was June 5, 2006.
那是2006年6月5日。
As best as we can determine from people at the mosque and from testimony in court, two months after Tidwell reassured them that the FBI would not monitor them without telling them, the FBI placed an undercover informant in the mosque.
据我们从清真寺里的人和法庭上的证词可以确定的是，在蒂德韦尔向他们保证联邦调查局不会在没有通知他们的情况下监视他们两个月后，联邦调查局在清真寺里安置了一名卧底线人。
And this is where our story begins.
这就是我们的故事开始的地方。
Sam Black is our reporter.
萨姆·布莱克是我们的记者。
The informant in this story is named Craig Monteilh, and like a lot of people who go undercover to catch criminals, he used to be a criminal himself.
这个故事中的线人名叫克雷格·蒙泰尔（Craig Monteilh），和许多卧底抓捕罪犯的人一样，他自己也曾经是一名罪犯。
He's done time for forging checks, embezzlement, and grand theft.
他曾因伪造支票、贪污和盗窃而受过刑。
At one point, he made a living stealing cocaine from drug dealers.
一度，他以从毒贩那里偷可卡因为生。
As I reported this story, people who know him described him as a snake, a chameleon, a thug scam artist, and, quote, a piece of [BLEEP].
当我报道这个故事时，认识他的人将他描述为一条蛇、一条变色龙、一个暴徒骗局艺术家，以及（引述）一段[BLEEP]。
And Craig says some pretty far-fetched things, like this list of aliases.
克雷格说了一些相当牵强的话，比如这个别名列表。
He told me he used all of these in undercover stings.
他告诉我他在秘密刺杀中使用了所有这些。
Italian drug dealer Vincent Donado, a Russian hit man by the name of Ivan Chernyenko.
意大利毒贩文森特·多纳多（Vincent Donado）是一名俄罗斯杀手，名叫伊万·切尔延科（Ivan Chernenko）。
Colombian drug dealer Pedro Hernandez.
哥伦比亚毒贩佩德罗·埃尔南德斯。
A Bulgarian drug dealer by the name of Sergei Gerd.
保加利亚毒贩谢尔盖·格尔德。
Also, I went by Polish names.
另外，我用的是波兰名字。
One was Lech Vlesky.
莱赫·弗莱斯基就是其中之一。
It's unclear if any of these are real, but some of the unlikely things Craig says do check out, like the fact that he worked on a counter-terrorism operation for the FBI.
目前尚不清楚这些是否属实，但克雷格所说的一些不太可能发生的事情确实得到了证实，比如他曾为联邦调查局的反恐行动工作过。
The Bureau has confirmed this.
局方已证实此事。
In 2006, the FBI enlisted him to go undercover to catch people who were recruiting and training terrorists.
2006年，联邦调查局邀请他卧底抓捕招募和训练恐怖分子的人。
Craig says it all began at a strip mall Starbucks where he met with two FBI agents, Paul Allen and Kevin Armstrong.
克雷格说，这一切都始于一家星巴克购物中心，在那里他会见了两名联邦调查局特工保罗·艾伦和凯文·阿姆斯特朗。
He says they told him they wanted him to go undercover.
他说他们告诉他希望他去卧底。
They'd pay him to infiltrate the Muslim community in Orange County-- which is a funny thought, because Craig's not the most inconspicuous guy.
他们付钱让他渗透到奥兰治县的穆斯林社区——这是一个有趣的想法，因为克雷格并不是最不起眼的人。
I'm 6'2", 260 pounds.
我身高 6 英尺 2 英寸，体重 260 磅。
It's not fat.
这并不胖。
It's lean body mass.
这是去脂体重。
I bench 500 pounds.
我卧推500磅。
I have 21 and 1/2-inch arms.
我的手臂长 21 又 1/2 英寸。
But according to Craig, the FBI wanted to use his lean body mass to their advantage.
但据克雷格称，联邦调查局希望利用他的瘦体重来为他们谋取利益。
I was to lure Muslim males into the gym using my physique to see what actually is the real pulse of the Muslim community.
我要利用我的体格吸引穆斯林男性进入健身房，看看穆斯林社区的真正脉搏到底是什么。
They told me what I did was vital to America's national security and to do exactly what they said.
他们告诉我，我所做的事情对美国的国家安全至关重要，并且要严格按照他们所说的去做。
And did they have particular targets in the Muslim community in mind?
他们在穆斯林社区中是否有特定的目标？
No. They said the targets would come to me.
不，他们说目标会来找我。
The FBI wouldn't talk to me for this story because the operation is still classified, and because it's the subject of a lawsuit.
联邦调查局不会就这个故事与我交谈，因为该行动仍然属于机密，而且是诉讼的主题。
But the FBI later confirmed in court that Craig was an undercover informant.
但联邦调查局后来在法庭上证实克雷格是一名卧底线人。
A district attorney also stated in court that Craig did work with agent Kevin Armstrong, and that Craig had given the FBI, quote, "very, very valuable information." The FBI also confirmed one other thing-- the name of Craig's operation.
一名地区检察官还在法庭上表示，克雷格确实与特工凯文·阿姆斯特朗合作，并且克雷格向联邦调查局提供了“非常非常有价值的信息”。联邦调查局还确认了另一件事——克雷格的行动名称。
Operation Flex-- F-L-E-X.
灵活行动——F-L-E-X。
Sam Black One Thursday in August, 2006, Craig showed up at the Islamic Center of Irvine-- one of the biggest mosques in Orange County-- and met with the imam there.
萨姆·布莱克 2006 年 8 月的一个星期四，克雷格出现在尔湾伊斯兰中心——奥兰治县最大的清真寺之一——并会见了那里的伊玛目。
Craig told him that he wanted to convert to Islam.
克雷格告诉他，他想皈依伊斯兰教。
The next day, after Friday prayers, Craig stood on a stage in front of hundreds of people and declared that he was now a Muslim with a new Muslim name-- Farouk al-Aziz.
第二天，周五祈祷后，克雷格站在数百人面前的舞台上，宣布他现在是一名穆斯林，并拥有一个新的穆斯林名字——法鲁克·阿齐兹。
People who were in the mosque that day remember it well, the first time they saw this new convert, Farouk.
那天在清真寺里的人们都记得很清楚，他们第一次见到这位新皈依者法鲁克。
Picture a 300-pound linebacker that has a ridiculously wide frame, and then huge, massive legs.
想象一下一个 300 磅重的后卫，他有一个宽得离谱的框架，然后是巨大的、粗壮的腿。
His biceps were just like my whole thigh, basically.
基本上，他的二头肌就像我的整个大腿。
It's just-- he was a big guy.
只是——他是个大人物。
At the beginning, I was kind of scared from him.
一开始，我对他有点害怕。
[LAUGHS] He was kind of scary, to me, looking, yeah.
[笑]对我来说，他看起来有点可怕，是的。
Over the next few weeks, Craig started showing up at the nearby 24 Hour Fitness, a gym where a lot of the guys from the Irvine mosque would work out.
在接下来的几周里，克雷格开始出现在附近的 24 小时健身中心，这是一家来自尔湾清真寺的很多人都会锻炼的健身房。
And when he wasn't at the gym, he was at the mosque.
当他不在健身房时，他就在清真寺。
He attended prayer five times a day.
他每天参加五次祈祷。
One of the people who noticed Craig was an Egyptian guy named Ayman.
注意到克雷格的人之一是一位名叫艾曼的埃及人。
He asked that I not use his last name.
他要求我不要使用他的姓氏。
Every day, you would see him in the mosque-- every day you would see him.
每天，你都会在清真寺里看到他——每天你都会看到他。
But he would be sitting alone.
但他会独自坐着。
You don't know if he has friends, or if he is struggling to understand what's going on.
你不知道他是否有朋友，或者他是否正在努力理解正在发生的事情。
You feel bad.
你感觉很糟糕。
This guy, he's new to Islam.
这家伙，他是伊斯兰教的新手。
Probably either he is afraid, or curious, or something.
也许他是害怕，或者好奇，或者别的什么。
I don't know, you don't know.
我不知道，你也不知道。
You just want to be as friendly as you can.
你只是想尽可能友好。
Ayman lived in a house just around the corner from the mosque with a few other Egyptians.
艾曼和其他几个埃及人住在清真寺附近的一所房子里。
One day, he decided to introduce himself to Craig.
有一天，他决定向克雷格介绍自己。
I believe it was after the Zuhr prayer, which is the one at 1:00 o'clock.
我相信是在晌礼祈祷之后，即 1:00 点的祈祷之后。
I went to him, and I said, hey, salaam alaikum-- peace upon you, basically.
我去找他，我说，嘿，salaam alaikum——基本上，愿你平安。
And, hey, my name is Ayman.
嘿，我叫艾曼。
He says, it's been about four weeks, right?
他说，已经大约四个星期了，对吧？
You're still here.
你还在这里。
Craig remembers this too.
克雷格也记得这一点。
Craig Monteilh I said, yes.
克雷格·蒙泰尔 我说，是的。
He said, well, usually people just-- new converts, after a few weeks, they just-- they leave.
他说，嗯，通常人们只是——新皈依者，几周后，他们就——离开。
They fall by the wayside.
他们半途而废。
I said, well, not me.
我说，好吧，不是我。
I'm a real Muslim.
我是一个真正的穆斯林。
And I told him, here's my number.
我告诉他，这是我的电话号码。
And I wrote my number on a piece of paper.
我把我的号码写在一张纸上。
If you have any question about anything, you know, like in your head about the religion, or if you need anything that I can help you with, I would love to.
如果你对任何事情有任何疑问，你知道，比如你头脑中关于宗教的问题，或者如果你需要我可以帮助你的任何事情，我很乐意。
And he said, well, you know, we're Egyptian.
他说，好吧，你知道，我们是埃及人。
We get together on-- after, prayer on Fridays and during the weekends, and we all barbecue food together.
我们在周五和周末祈祷后聚在一起，一起烧烤食物。
Maybe you can come by, and we'll talk to you more about your faith and how you can grow as a Muslim.
也许您可以过来，我们将与您更多地讨论您的信仰以及如何成长为穆斯林。
From there, when I went home, I thought, I'm really in.
从那时起，当我回家时，我想，我真的进去了。
Craig's new friend Ayman lived with four unmarried Egyptian men, all in their late 20s or early 30s.
克雷格的新朋友艾曼与四名未婚埃及男子住在一起，他们都是二十多岁或三十出头。
One was an accountant.
其中一人是一名会计师。
Another worked for a logistics company.
另一人在一家物流公司工作。
There was a guy who worked in pharmaceuticals and an IT consultant.
有一个人在制药行业工作，同时也是一名 IT 顾问。
They each traveled occasionally, sometimes for work, or sometimes back home to Egypt.
他们每个人都偶尔旅行，有时是为了工作，有时是回埃及的家。
Craig says his FBI handler suspected the roommates might be a terrorist cell that would radicalize him, so he arrived at their house ready for anything.
克雷格说，他的联邦调查局官员怀疑这些室友可能是一个恐怖组织，会让他变得激进，所以他来到他们家，做好了一切准备。
Well, first of all, they make some Egyptian food, which is very good-- delicious food.
嗯，首先，他们做一些埃及菜，非常好吃——美味的食物。
And we sit on the couch for about, maybe, a couple of hours, just had a conversation.
我们在沙发上坐了大约几个小时，只是进行了交谈。
And they would play their Xbox while we're having a conversation in a very competitive way.
当我们以一种非常有竞争力的方式进行对话时，他们会玩 Xbox。
I was engaged at the time, but I used to play more Xbox than spending time with my fiancee.
当时我订婚了，但我玩 Xbox 的时间比和未婚妻在一起的时间还多。
It's like 80% Xbox, and everything else comes second.
就像 80% 的 Xbox，其他一切都是第二位的。
That's Ayman again.
又是艾曼。
He and his friends were ridiculously obsessed with Xbox.
他和他的朋友们对 Xbox 的痴迷程度可笑。
They'd play tournaments for five hours a day, and they only played one game.
他们每天打五个小时的锦标赛，但只打一场比赛。
FIFA Soccer.
国际足联足球。
That was something-- we played a lot of FIFA.
那是很重要的——我们玩了很多《FIFA》。
We still play a lot of FIFA.
我们仍然经常玩《FIFA》。
Yasser AbdelRahim was one of Ayman's roommates, a tall, athletic guy who worked as a tech consultant.
亚西尔·阿卜杜勒·拉希姆 (Yasser AbdelRahim) 是艾曼的室友之一，他身材高大、运动健壮，担任技术顾问。
He'd lived in the US for about 10 years.
他在美国生活了大约10年。
Yasser and Ayman considered their house a brotherhood, but as he told me and my producer Bryan Reed, not really the militant terror cell kind Craig was looking for.
亚西尔和艾曼认为他们的家族是兄弟情谊，但正如他告诉我和我的制片人布莱恩·里德（Bryan Reed）的那样，他们并不是克雷格正在寻找的好战恐怖分子。
We'd all just hang out together, and a lot of my friends would actually come in and say, this is the frat house, right?
我们只是一起出去玩，我的很多朋友实际上会进来说，这是兄弟会的房子，对吧？
But, obviously, we didn't drink, so like--
但是，显然，我们没有喝酒，所以就像——
Craig's plan worked.
克雷格的计划成功了。
Yasser and Ayman started inviting him over more and more.
亚西尔和艾曼开始越来越多地邀请他过来。
They'd hang out together, get coffee, go to the movies.
他们会一起出去玩，喝咖啡，看电影。
When Craig got sick, they went to his house to keep him company.
当克雷格生病时，他们去他家陪伴他。
They bought him books about Islam and brought them back gifts from their trips to Egypt.
他们给他买了有关伊斯兰教的书籍，并从埃及之行带回了礼物。
Here's Ayman, and then Yasser.
这是艾曼，然后是亚西尔。
He was a super cool guy.
他是一个超级酷的人。
You know, he initiated conversation.
你知道，他发起了谈话。
We'd talk about stuff.
我们会谈论一些事情。
He was very comfortable around us.
他在我们身边很舒服。
He was very cool around us.
他在我们身边非常酷。
He would joke around.
他会开玩笑。
He would tell us about what he did, some of the issues that he was going through.
他会告诉我们他做了什么，以及他正在经历的一些问题。
He said he was going through some rough patches from a family perspective, going through a divorce.
他说，从家庭角度来看，他正在经历一些困难，正在经历离婚。
We tried not to speak in Arabic as much when he's around, because we didn't want to give him any feeling that he's uncomfortable or anything like that.
当他在场时，我们尽量少说阿拉伯语，因为我们不想让他有任何不舒服或类似的感觉。
We talked about the gym.
我们谈论了健身房。
We went and worked out together.
我们一起去锻炼了。
Obviously, when you see a big bulky guy, you know what I mean, that's just like, that's very cool.
显然，当你看到一个大块头的家伙时，你就知道我的意思，那就是，这非常酷。
I barely can lift 5 pounds.
我勉强举起 5 磅。
We'd watch TV.
我们会看电视。
Sometimes, we'd watch Arabic movies, because he'd be interested in actually seeing some of that.
有时，我们会看阿拉伯电影，因为他有兴趣实际观看其中的一些电影。
But Craig was at work-- watching, taking notes, and recording with a hidden microphone.
但克雷格正在工作——观看、做笔记，并用隐藏的麦克风录音。
It'd be on the whole day.
会是一整天。
I would get into my car in my garage, I would turn on the device, and I would say something like, Farouk al-Aziz, May 4, 2012, 5:45 AM, and I am hot-- meaning it's beginning.
我会钻进车库里的车，打开设备，然后说类似“Farouk al-Aziz，2012 年 5 月 4 日凌晨 5:45”之类的话，“我很热”——这意味着一切都开始了。
The FBI has publicly confirmed that Craig recorded audio and video during this operation.
联邦调查局已公开证实克雷格在这次行动中录制了音频和视频。
That means, presumably, the smack the Egyptians talked during Xbox tournaments, the discussions of movies and their personal lives, the exercise tips that Craig gave them at the gym.
这大概意味着埃及人在 Xbox 锦标赛期间所说的话语、对电影和个人生活的讨论、克雷格在健身房给他们的锻炼建议。
The Egyptians would play pickup soccer on the weekends with a bunch of other Muslim guys.
埃及人会在周末和一群其他穆斯林小伙子一起踢足球。
Craig went to some of these games, but he never played.
克雷格观看了其中一些比赛，但他从未参加过比赛。
Instead, Craig says he used the opportunity to jot down license plate numbers and film the games so his handlers could see who associated with whom.
相反，克雷格说，他利用这个机会记下了车牌号码并拍摄了比赛过程，以便他的管理人员可以看到谁与谁有联系。
According to Craig, he also brought his handlers things from the Egyptians' house that might have their DNA or fingerprints.
据克雷格说，他还从埃及人的房子里给他的管理者带来了可能有他们的 DNA 或指纹的东西。
They instructed me to get-- because Ayman smoked-- a cigarette butt from his ashtray in his room, and certain items from his bathroom, like a toothpaste tube.
他们指示我从他房间里的烟灰缸里取出烟蒂，因为艾曼抽烟，并从他的浴室里取出一些物品，比如牙膏管。
So you would sneak around their house and steal these things from their rooms?
所以你会偷偷溜进他们的房子并从他们的房间里偷走这些东西？
Yes.
是的。
Sam Black Meeting Ayman and Yasser, it was hard to imagine why the FBI was monitoring them.
萨姆·布莱克见到艾曼和亚西尔，很难想象为什么联邦调查局要监视他们。
They just seemed like normal guys.
他们看起来只是普通人。
The FBI, of course, wouldn't talk about the case, and they wouldn't even talk in a general way, separate from this case, about how they choose who they're going to investigate.
当然，联邦调查局不会谈论这个案子，他们甚至不会与这个案子分开，以一般的方式谈论他们如何选择要调查的人。
So I called Trevor Aaronson to help me make sense of Operation Flex.
因此，我打电话给特雷弗·阿伦森 (Trevor Aaronson)，让他帮助我了解 Flex 行动。
He's an investigative journalist who's analyzed over 500 FBI terrorism convictions looking at how informants are used to find suspects, surveil them, and build cases.
他是一名调查记者，分析了 500 多项 FBI 恐怖主义定罪，研究如何利用线人寻找嫌疑人、监视他们并立案。
I told Trevor what Craig said-- that the FBI went into the Muslim community without any specific suspects.
我告诉特雷弗克雷格的话——联邦调查局进入穆斯林社区时没有任何具体嫌疑人。
Trevor said that's possible, but it's also possible that Craig wasn't told who the targets were.
特雷弗说这是可能的，但也有可能克雷格没有被告知目标是谁。
It's possible that the FBI had information that Craig isn't aware of.
联邦调查局可能掌握了克雷格不知道的信息。
In the cases we've looked at, it's really uncommon that the FBI would spend lots of time with someone who was so unfruitful.
在我们研究过的案例中，联邦调查局花大量时间与一个毫无成果的人在一起确实很罕见。
If they're spending months and months, and all they're doing is playing soccer, the FBI will move on.
如果他们花了几个月的时间，而他们所做的一切就是踢足球，那么联邦调查局就会继续前进。
If Craig was spending that much time with them, it's worth noting that most likely, they had enough for what they call a predicate, which is a reason that they were investigating them-- that there was a phone call that was overheard, there was some kind of correspondence with someone overseas that the FBI is monitoring that made the FBI agents suspicious of this particular group.
如果克雷格花了那么多时间和他们在一起，那么值得注意的是，他们很可能已经有足够的时间来进行所谓的“谓词”，这就是他们调查他们的原因——有一个电话被无意中听到，有与联邦调查局正在监视的海外某人的某种通信，这使得联邦调查局特工对这个特定的组织产生了怀疑。
In addition to Trevor, my producer and I talked to five long-time FBI agents now retired who all oversaw informants.
除了特雷弗之外，我和我的制片人还与五名现已退休的长期联邦调查局特工进行了交谈，他们都负责监督线人。
They couldn't comment on Operation Flex specifically, and none of them knew firsthand about these Egyptian guys, but they gave us similar theories.
他们无法具体评论 Flex 行动，也没有人直接了解这些埃及人，但他们给了我们类似的理论。
Basically, they said if the FBI has even the smallest reason to suspect you, a reason you might not even be aware of yourself, they have to check you out.
基本上，他们说，如果联邦调查局有哪怕是最小的理由怀疑你，你甚至可能不知道自己的原因，他们就必须对你进行调查。
Maybe you happened to phone someone the FBI is monitoring.
也许您碰巧给联邦调查局正在监视的人打电话。
Maybe they got a bad tip.
也许他们得到了不好的提示。
One of the ex-FBI agents said to me, do innocent people get investigated?
一位前联邦调查局特工对我说，无辜的人会受到调查吗？
Sure, every day.
当然，每天。
They can't weed them out without looking at them.
如果不看他们，他们就无法将其清除。
Though one agent said it was possible that this was a case that just went awry, that was badly managed and didn't follow FBI protocols.
尽管一名特工表示，这起案件可能只是出了差错，但管理不善，而且没有遵循联邦调查局的协议。
Months passed.
几个月过去了。
People noticed that Craig was acting more devout.
人们注意到克雷格表现得更加虔诚。
He began reciting prayers aloud, dressing in traditional robes, and showing up so early for 5:00 AM prayers that he'd get there before the person who unlocked the mosque every morning.
他开始大声朗诵祈祷词，穿着传统长袍，并且很早就出现在凌晨 5:00 的祈祷中，以至于每天早上他都会比打开清真寺锁的人先到达那里。
They also noticed something else.
他们还注意到了其他事情。
Slowly and surely enough some during some times when we're having coffee came the question of jihad.
当我们喝咖啡的时候，慢慢地、肯定地，一些人提出了圣战问题。
Yasser, one of the Egyptians, had actually been asked questions about jihad before.
埃及人之一亚西尔之前实际上曾被问过有关圣战的问题。
Non-Muslims bring it up with him sometimes.
非穆斯林有时会向他提起这件事。
He'll be on a plane, and the person next to him will ask about it.
他会在飞机上，旁边的人会询问这件事。
So he and his friends told Craig what they always tell people-- that jihad isn't what you see on the news.
因此，他和他的朋友告诉克雷格他们总是告诉人们的事情——圣战不是你在新闻中看到的那样。
Jihad is really about each person's internal striving to be a good Muslim.
圣战实际上是每个人内心努力成为一名优秀的穆斯林。
It's not holy war.
这不是圣战。
Here's Ayman.
这是艾曼。
But the reality is, if I'm new to Islam, I would be very curious about this stuff, too.
但现实是，如果我是伊斯兰教的新手，我也会对这些东西很好奇。
I would be very curious about this stuff.
我会对这个东西很好奇。
You know, that's what the media talks about all the time.
你知道，这就是媒体一直在谈论的内容。
So he must be very curious.
所以他一定很好奇。
If you mention Islam, then-- I think there was a survey, if you mention Islam, the second thing that you think about in the American society was terrorist.
如果你提到伊斯兰教，那么——我想有一个调查，如果你提到伊斯兰教，你在美国社会想到的第二件事就是恐怖主义。
So for me, it was somehow normal, if you look at it from a curiosity viewpoint.
所以对我来说，如果你从好奇的角度来看，这在某种程度上是正常的。
But it wasn't normal how obsessed he was with it, until when we start being, this guy is-- there's something very, very [BLEEP] up about this person.
但他对此如此着迷是不正常的，直到我们开始发现，这个人——这个人有一些非常非常[哔]的东西。
He just would bring these odd things in the middle of the conversation, out of nowhere.
他只是会在谈话中突然提出这些奇怪的事情。
For instance, the guys would be talking about food or sports.
例如，这些人会谈论食物或运动。
But yet, he would always bring politics into the conversation-- jihad, suicide bomber.
但他总是会把政治带入谈话中——圣战、自杀式炸弹袭击者。
So what do you want to-- for example, I'm being sarcastic-- what do you want to eat, Farouk?
那么你想要什么——例如，我是在讽刺——你想吃什么，法鲁克？
So what do you think about Hosni Mubarak, you know what I mean?
那么你对胡斯尼·穆巴拉克有何看法，你明白我的意思吗？
He-- just out of nowhere.
他——不知从哪里冒出来的。
Craig talked to his Arabic teacher, Mohamed Elsisy about his new obsession, too.
克雷格也和他的阿拉伯语老师穆罕默德·埃尔西西谈论了他的新痴迷。
He invited me once to lunch, yes, and he focused the topic in the lunch about jihad.
是的，他邀请我吃一次午餐，他把午餐的主题集中在关于圣战的话题上。
And I keep turning his attention into the essence of Islam, and he kept again bringing it back to jihad.
我不断地将他的注意力转向伊斯兰教的本质，而他不断地再次将其带回圣战。
And he kept asking about jihad over, and over, and over.
他不断地一遍又一遍地询问有关圣战的问题。
And I told him, Farouk, get over it.
我告诉他，法鲁克，克服它。
Get over it.
克服它。
Get over it.
克服它。
It alarmed all of them.
这让他们所有人都惊慌失措。
At one point, Yasser confronted Farouk-- that is, Craig.
有一次，亚西尔与法鲁克（即克雷格）对峙。
I even told him, like, Farouk, this needs to stop, because this is not the right direction.
我什至告诉他，法鲁克，这需要停止，因为这不是正确的方向。
This is not what Islam is about.
这不是伊斯兰教的目的。
So if somebody is teaching this, let me know, because we need to correct that immediately, right?
因此，如果有人教这个，请告诉我，因为我们需要立即纠正，对吧？
And did he seem receptive?
他看起来很乐意接受吗？
Yasser AbdelRahim He did.
亚西尔·阿卜杜勒·拉希姆 他做到了。
He said he did, right?
他说他做到了，对吗？
And I told him-- I told him, at this point, people are starting to get to wonder about what's going on, where you're learning this stuff from, right?
我告诉他——我告诉他，在这一点上，人们开始想知道发生了什么事，你从哪里学到这些东西，对吧？
So we need to understand.
所以我们需要理解。
And he was like, yeah, I'm not going to talk to anybody about this.
他说，是的，我不会和任何人谈论这件事。
I don't know; maybe I was reading some incorrect stuff.
我不知道;也许我读了一些不正确的东西。
But Craig didn't listen.
但克雷格没有听。
He didn't stop talking about jihad.
他没有停止谈论圣战。
He says this is what the FBI wanted, because, he says, he was great at it.
他说这就是联邦调查局想要的，因为他说，他很擅长这件事。
I would have to, in a very strategic way, get their views on jihad.
我必须以一种非常战略性的方式了解他们对圣战的看法。
And I got so good at it, in their view, that they wanted to enhance it.
在他们看来，我在这方面表现得非常出色，因此他们想要加强它。
So I was to speak to, I think, 10 Muslims a day regarding jihad.
所以我想，我每天要与 10 个穆斯林谈论圣战问题。
Since the FBI isn't commenting, I ran this by Trevor Aaronson, the journalist who's examined about 500 counter-terrorism cases, to see if it was possible.
由于联邦调查局没有发表评论，我通过特雷弗·阿伦森 (Trevor Aaronson) 报道了这篇文章，他是一位审查过大约 500 个反恐案件的记者，看看这是否可能。
He said that in all of those hundreds of cases, he's never heard of a quota like this.
他说，在这数百起案件中，他从未听说过这样的配额。
The FBI agents I spoke with hadn't either.
我采访过的联邦调查局特工也没有。
Though Trevor says that once a sting operation gets going, it's common for undercover agents and informants to bait suspects by asking them about jihad.
尽管特雷弗表示，一旦诱捕行动开始，卧底特工和线人通常会通过询问嫌疑人有关圣战的情况来引诱他们。
That happens in almost every undercover sting operation.
几乎每一次卧底诱捕行动都会发生这种情况。
I can tell you that in many of the cases I've looked at, that's mentioned in the criminal affidavit in some way.
我可以告诉你，在我看过的许多案件中，刑事宣誓书中都以某种方式提到了这一点。
And I think when that's submitted at trial, that's a really damning piece of evidence for juries today.
我认为，当在审判中提交该证据时，这对今天的陪审团来说是一个非常具有说服力的证据。
Craig took this strategy and ran with it.
克雷格采取了这一策略并付诸实践。
Mohamed, the Arabic teacher, heard complaints from his friends.
阿拉伯语老师穆罕默德听到了朋友们的抱怨。
It was to the limit that one of them told me he keeps calling him by phone and keep saying to him, (WHISPERING) jihad, jihad.
他们中的一个人告诉我，他一直打电话给他，一直对他说，（低声）圣战，圣战，这已经到了极限。
I was like, you know, wait a minute!
我当时想，你知道，等一下！
Yeah, in the phone.
是的，在电话里。
Sam Black I asked Craig, did that happen?
萨姆·布莱克 我问克雷格，那件事发生了吗？
Probably.
大概。
I'm not denying it.
我并不否认。
I may have been-- we had a conversation or something, and I had done something ridiculous like that.
我可能——我们进行过一次谈话或其他什么事情，而我却做了类似那样荒谬的事情。
But I don't deny it.
但我并不否认。
I'm sure I probably did, OK?
我确信我可能做到了，好吗？
What were you trying to accomplish with that?
你想用它来实现什么目的？
Whatever individual heard that, and they didn't quickly report me, they're automatically a suspect.
无论谁听到了这个消息，并且他们没有立即举报我，他们都会自动成为嫌疑人。
Every single conversation is a conversation that the FBI or a prosecutor can say, well, you heard him say this numerous times, and yet you didn't do the following.
每一次谈话都是联邦调查局或检察官可以说的谈话，好吧，你听他说过很多次了，但你没有做以下事情。
And so that's what you were trying to do?
这就是你想要做的？
Of course.
当然。
Sam Black If you didn't think Craig could get any less subtle, here's another tactic he would try.
萨姆·布莱克（Sam Black）：如果你认为克雷格不能变得不那么狡猾，那么他会尝试另一种策略。
I'd say, let's meet tomorrow afternoon at the gym.
我想说，我们明天下午在健身房见面吧。
We'll work out together.
我们会一起锻炼。
I'll teach you some things about how to get your forearms shaped a little better, your biceps stronger and bigger.
我会教你一些关于如何让你的前臂形状更好一点，让你的二头肌更强更大的事情。
And at these workouts, I would ask very sensitive question regarding Islam.
在这些训练中，我会问有关伊斯兰教的非常敏感的问题。
For example--
例如——
So what do you think about Osama bin Laden?
那么您对奥萨马·本·拉登有何看法？
Ayman was working on his biceps when Craig asked him this.
当克雷格问起这个问题时，艾曼正在锻炼他的二头肌。
I'm like, dude, OK, Osama bin Laden is a bad guy.
我想，伙计，好吧，奥萨马·本·拉登是个坏人。
He's a mother[BLEEP], you know what I mean?
他是一位母亲[BLEEP]，你明白我的意思吗？
All what we are suffering from right now is because of Osama bin Laden.
我们现在所遭受的一切都是因为奥萨马·本·拉登。
And your question right now is because of Osama bin Laden, you know what I mean?
你现在的问题是因为奥萨马·本·拉登，你知道我的意思吗？
All of these new laws that they start acting about just searching, you know and sticking their finger in you [BLEEP] is because of Osama bin Laden.
他们开始实施的所有这些新法律只是为了搜索，你知道，并把手指伸进你身上[哔]，都是因为奥萨马·本·拉登。
So you tell him, yeah, you know, Osama bin Laden is the bad guy.
所以你告诉他，是的，你知道，奥萨马·本·拉登是坏人。
One day, a guy named Riaz Surti showed up at the gym with a friend Riaz had owned the halal KFC/Taco Bell nearby.
有一天，一位名叫里亚兹·苏尔蒂 (Riaz Surti) 的男子和一位朋友一起出现在健身房，里亚兹在附近拥有清真肯德基/塔可钟 (Taco Bell)。
Craig hopped off a stationary bike and introduced himself to Riaz as a fellow Muslim.
克雷格跳下一辆固定自行车，向里亚兹介绍自己是一名穆斯林同胞。
Here's Riaz.
这是里亚兹。
Then I left.
然后我就离开了。
I left to go and stretch out.
我离开去舒展一下身体。
Then I came back, and then he leans to us, and then he says, you know, I met the Sheikh in Afghanistan?
然后我回来了，然后他向我们倾斜，然后他说，你知道，我在阿富汗遇到了酋长？
"The Sheik?" Riaz Surti The Sheikh.
“酋长？”里亚兹·苏尔蒂 酋长。
He said, yeah, I met the big guy, or the Sheikh in Afghanistan.
他说，是的，我遇到了大人物，或者是阿富汗的酋长。
We knew that he was referring to Osama bin Laden.
我们知道他指的是奥萨马·本·拉登。
He was bragging.
他在吹牛。
He was smiling that he met the Sheikh, yeah.
他微笑着说他见到了酋长，是的。
It just became very clear to us.
我们对此变得非常清楚。
Craig told us he has never been to Afghanistan, but he was trying to see if these guys at the gym who he'd never met thought it would be cool to hang out with Osama bin Laden.
克雷格告诉我们，他从未去过阿富汗，但他想看看健身房里那些他从未见过的人是否认为和奥萨马·本·拉登一起出去玩很酷。
They didn't think that would be cool.
他们认为这并不酷。
So instead, Riaz says, he wanted to get Craig to leave him alone.
因此，里亚兹说，他想让克雷格别打扰他。
So every time he saw him, he would tell him the dirtiest jokes he could come up with.
所以每次见到他，他都会给他讲他能想到的最下流的笑话。
I didn't want him to think I was a good Muslim.
我不想让他认为我是一个好穆斯林。
I just felt like his goal was to like to get us involved with something that we weren't involved with.
我只是觉得他的目标是想让我们参与一些我们没有参与的事情。
What did you tell him?
你告诉他什么了？
Riaz Surti Like did you hear about the doctor who was having sex with his patients?
Riaz Surti 你听说过那位与病人发生性关系的医生吗？
And he said, no. And I said, he's a very interesting doctor.
他说，不。我说，他是一位非常有趣的医生。
And then, he looked at me.
然后，他看着我。
He was a veterinarian.
他是一名兽医。
It worked.
它起作用了。
Craig left him alone after that.
之后克雷格就离开了他。
About eight months into Operation Flex, Craig says his handlers told him to start talking to people about an actual terrorist plot, a plan to blow up buildings in Southern California.
克雷格说，“灵活行动”进行了大约八个月后，他的上司告诉他开始与人们谈论一个真正的恐怖分子阴谋，即炸毁南加州建筑物的计划。
That happens in lots of FBI stings-- the informant suggests the plot to the suspect, not the other way around-- according to Trevor Aaronson again, who studied hundreds of terrorism convictions.
研究了数百起恐怖主义定罪的特雷弗·阿伦森再次表示，联邦调查局的许多刺杀行动中都会发生这种情况——线人向嫌疑人暗示阴谋，而不是相反。
Of about 500 terrorism cases since 9/11, about 50 defendants have been involved in cases where the informant came up with the idea and provided all of the means.
自9/11以来的约500起恐怖主义案件中，约50名被告涉及线人提出想法并提供所有手段的案件。
But ex-FBI agents I talked to said that in the well-run operation, the informant is not supposed to suggest the plot out of the blue.
但我采访过的前联邦调查局特工表示，在运作良好的行动中，线人不应该突然提出情节。
First, the suspect would have to declare his intention to commit an act of violence.
首先，嫌疑人必须声明其实施暴力行为的意图。
Without that, the whole case could get thrown out of court as entrapment.
如果没有这一点，整个案件可能会被当作陷阱而被扔出法庭。
The person Craig suggested his plot to was a guy named Ahmad Niazi.
克雷格向一个名叫艾哈迈德·尼亚齐的人提出了他的阴谋。
Niazi is the only person we know of that Craig helped catch, the only person the FBI arrested as a result of Operation Flex.
尼亚齐是我们所知道的唯一一个被克雷格帮助抓获的人，也是联邦调查局因“弹性行动”而逮捕的唯一一个人。
Craig had met Niazi one night at the Irvine mosque.
一天晚上，克雷格在欧文清真寺遇见了尼亚齐。
Mohamed, Craig's Arabic teacher, introduced them.
克雷格的阿拉伯语老师穆罕默德介绍了他们。
Niazi was a family man, very different from the Egyptian Xbox players.
尼亚齐是一个顾家的男人，这与埃及的 Xbox 玩家截然不同。
He had a wife and two young kids and taught at a nearby language school.
他有妻子和两个年幼的孩子，并在附近的一所语言学校任教。
Niazi grew up in Afghanistan, but he had lived in California for eight years.
尼亚齐在阿富汗长大，但他在加利福尼亚州生活了八年。
He and Craig went out for coffee, and they hit it off.
他和克雷格出去喝咖啡，一拍即合。
They started hanging out a lot, sometimes with Mohamed.
他们开始经常出去玩，有时和穆罕默德一起。
One Friday, the three of them were driving to a mosque where Mohamed was scheduled to give a sermon.
一个星期五，他们三人开车前往一座清真寺，穆罕默德计划在那里布道。
Niazi didn't want to do an interview for our story, but here's Mohamed.
尼亚齐不想接受我们的故事采访，但这是穆罕默德。
Niazi was sitting in the back seat, and Farouk was sitting in the passenger, and I was driving.
尼亚齐坐在后座，法鲁克坐在副驾驶座，我开车。
And I started to bring up, what should we really do as Muslims now that our brothers and sisters are being blown up in Afghanistan and Iraq?
我开始提出，既然我们的兄弟姐妹在阿富汗和伊拉克被炸毁，我们作为穆斯林真正应该做什么？
And I told him, Farouk, we are living in Irvine, the most peaceful city in the whole America.
我告诉他，法鲁克，我们住在尔湾，全美国最和平的城市。
[LAUGHS] He's like, you know, I just don't like the way that American government is handling situations outside and stuff.
[笑]他说，你知道，我只是不喜欢美国政府处理外部局势之类的方式。
And I was like, OK, and what?
我当时想，好吧，然后呢？
Are we supposed to just stay here, watch our national championship games, play Xbox and everything else, while our brothers are being killed?
当我们的兄弟被杀时，我们是否应该呆在这里，观看我们的全国冠军赛，玩 Xbox 以及其他一切？
And we told him, Farouk, what are you trying to get into, exactly?
我们告诉他，法鲁克，你到底想进入什么领域？
I said, we should carry out a terrorist attack in this country, because I'm tired just staying around doing nothing.
我说，我们应该在这个国家发动恐怖袭击，因为我厌倦了无所事事。
I've got access to weapons.
我可以获得武器。
I know how to do things.
我知道如何做事。
We should bomb something.
我们应该轰炸一些东西。
Silence was out there in the car.
车里一片寂静。
I didn't say a word until we arrived to the mosque.
直到我们到达清真寺我才说一句话。
I refused to talk at all.
我根本拒绝说话。
The first thing that came into my mind, that I thought that he is a straight shot terrorist.
我首先想到的是，我认为他是一个直接的恐怖分子。
And that at that point, I felt scared from him.
就在那一刻，我对他感到害怕。
He scared me.
他吓到我了。
Mohamed glanced into the rearview mirror and saw Niazi staring back at him.
穆罕默德看了一眼后视镜，发现尼亚齐正盯着他。
He looked shocked.
他看起来很震惊。
Craig's head was down.
克雷格低着头。
He was now playing with his phone.
他现在正在玩手机。
No one said anything for the remaining 20 minutes of the ride to the mosque.
在前往清真寺的剩余 20 分钟车程中，没有人再说任何话。
The drive back home was the same.
回家的路也是一样。
After they parted ways with Craig, Mohamed and Niazi talked about what had just happened.
与克雷格分手后，穆罕默德和尼亚齐谈论了刚刚发生的事情。
They decided they had to do something, so they did what all Americans are supposed to do in this situation, what law enforcement officials tell us we should do when someone says he has access to weapons and wants to use them.
他们决定必须做点什么，所以他们做了所有美国人在这种情况下应该做的事情，执法官员告诉我们当有人说他可以获得武器并想要使用它们时我们应该做的事情。
They reported Craig to the FBI as a potential terrorist.
他们向联邦调查局报告克雷格为潜在的恐怖分子。
Coming up, what happens, exactly, when you turn in someone to the FBI who is working for the FBI?
接下来，当你向联邦调查局举报为联邦调查局工作的人时，到底会发生什么？
Sam Black's story continues in a minute from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.
当我们的节目继续时，萨姆·布莱克的故事将在芝加哥公共广播电台继续讲述。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program, "The Convert," the story of an FBI undercover operation from 2006 that went very-- badly is, I think, a fair way to say it, and the uneasy relationship between some Muslims and the FBI, and why that might be.
今天的节目《皈依者》讲述了 2006 年联邦调查局卧底行动的故事，该行动进展得非常糟糕，我认为这是一个公平的说法，以及一些穆斯林和联邦调查局之间不稳定的关系，以及为什么会出现这种情况。
And as I said at the top of the show, we first ran today's program back in 2012, and we're rerunning it today because the case that it documents was argued at the Supreme Court last month.
正如我在节目开头所说，我们早在 2012 年就首次运行了今天的节目，今天我们重新运行它，因为它记录的案件上个月在最高法院进行了辩论。
It's hard to say what, exactly, constitutes failure if you're a government informant, but I think that being turned over to authorities as a possible terrorist yourself by the people who you think are terrorists, that's got to be on the list, right?
如果你是一名政府线人，很难说到底什么才算是失败，但我认为，你自己被那些你认为是恐怖分子的人作为可能的恐怖分子交给当局，这一定会出现在名单上，对吗？
That's not good.
那不好。
Sam Black picks up our story where we left off.
萨姆·布莱克从我们上次停下的地方继续讲故事。
So Mohamed and Niazi wanted to report Craig to the FBI, but they weren't sure who to call or how to do it.
因此穆罕默德和尼亚齐想向联邦调查局举报克雷格，但他们不确定该给谁打电话或如何举报。
They reached out to Hussam Ayloush.
他们联系了胡萨姆·艾卢什。
Hussam is director of the Council on American-Islamic Relations in Southern California, known as CAIR, and a well-known member of the Muslim community there.
胡萨姆是南加州美国伊斯兰关系委员会（CAIR）的主任，也是当地穆斯林社区的知名成员。
Just hours after the car ride, he got a phone call from Mohamed.
开车几小时后，他接到了穆罕默德的电话。
Here's Hussam.
这是胡萨姆。
He was terrified.
他很害怕。
I mean, the guy didn't know what to do.
我的意思是，那家伙不知道该怎么办。
He was so nervous.
他很紧张。
He told me, I know you deal with the FBI, and I know you work with police.
他告诉我，我知道你与联邦调查局打交道，我也知道你与警察合作。
You know, what do I do now?
你知道，我现在该怎么办？
Mohamed was with Niazi.
穆罕默德和尼亚齐在一起。
They were both afraid that if Craig went ahead with his plot, they would somehow be responsible.
他们都担心，如果克雷格继续他的阴谋，他们就要负上某种责任。
He passed the phone to Niazi, who was also panicking like crazy.
他把电话递给了同样惊慌失措的尼亚吉。
I mean, both of them, they didn't know what to do.
我的意思是，他们两个都不知道该怎么办。
So I told them, don't worry about it.
所以我告诉他们，别担心。
Calm down, you're not responsible for anything.
冷静点，你不需要承担任何责任。
You're doing the right thing.
你正在做正确的事。
You're calling the authorities.
你正在给当局打电话。
So even, if the guy is planning on anything, you have nothing to worry about.
因此，即使这个人正在计划任何事情，你也无需担心。
You're not accomplices.
你们不是共犯。
So what did you think was going on when you got this call?
那么，当您接到这个电话时，您认为发生了什么？
There are three possibilities.
有三种可能性。
Either he is recruited by al-Qaeda, or he's a lone wolf doing things on his own, or he's doing it for somebody else as an entrapment.
他要么是被基地组织招募的，要么是一头独自做事的独狼，要么是为了诱骗别人做事。
Either way, it's bad news.
不管怎样，这都是坏消息。
Hussam told Mohamed and Niazi that he would call the FBI.
胡萨姆告诉穆罕默德和尼亚齐，他将致电联邦调查局。
For years, he'd been attending monthly meetings with agents who'd hoped to build a good relationship with the Muslim community, and he was friends with Steve Tidwell, the head of the FBI's LA Office.
多年来，他每月都会参加与希望与穆斯林社区建立良好关系的特工的会议，而且他是联邦调查局洛杉矶办事处负责人史蒂夫·蒂德韦尔的朋友。
Hussam had actually organized the outreach meeting you heard about earlier, the one more Tidwell promised that the FBI wouldn't send people into mosques unannounced.
胡萨姆实际上组织了您之前听说过的一次外展会议，蒂德韦尔在这次会议上承诺联邦调查局不会在未经通知的情况下派人进入清真寺。
So Hussam called Tidwell on his cell phone and told him what had happened to Mohamed and Niazi.
于是胡萨姆用手机给蒂德韦尔打电话，告诉他穆罕默德和尼亚齐发生了什么事。
They thought this guy in the car might be serious.
他们认为车里的这个人可能是认真的。
Again, here's Hussam.
胡萨姆又来了。
They said, well, you know, thanks, Hussam.
他们说，嗯，你知道，谢谢，胡萨姆。
You're doing the right thing.
你正在做正确的事。
Thank these gentlemen.
感谢这些先生们。
This is exactly why we're so proud of working with the Muslim community.
这正是我们为与穆斯林社区合作而感到自豪的原因。
And I did mention this.
我确实提到过这一点。
He's a white guy, a white convert in Irvine.
他是一个白人，是尔湾的一名白人皈依者。
He said, oh.
他说，哦。
That's what he said, oh, OK, thank you, Hussam.
他就是这么说的，哦，好吧，谢谢你，Hussam。
That's great information.
这是很棒的信息。
And we'll let you know what happens.
我们会让您知道发生了什么。
I said, wait, wait, wait, don't you need his name-- because I had his name-- and I have his address, because they knew where he lived.
我说，等等，等等，等等，你不需要他的名字吗——因为我有他的名字——而且我有他的地址，因为他们知道他住在哪里。
They said, well, you know, don't worry about it.
他们说，好吧，你知道，别担心。
We work closely with Irvine PD, and we'll take care of it from here.
我们与尔湾市警察局密切合作，我们将从这里处理此事。
Don't worry about it.
别担心。
That's when my doubts started playing in my head, like-- I felt there was something strange.
就在那时，我的脑海中开始出现疑虑，就像——我觉得有什么奇怪的东西。
Tidwell wouldn't speak to me for this story, so I don't know what he thought when his own informant was reported to him as a terrorist.
蒂德韦尔不会就这个故事与我交谈，所以我不知道当他自己的线人被报告为恐怖分子时他有什么想法。
But not long after this phone call, the FBI launched an investigation into Craig-- which, no matter how you look at it, was a very strange undertaking.
但在这个电话之后不久，联邦调查局对克雷格展开了调查——无论你怎么看，这都是一项非常奇怪的工作。
FBI agents were going around asking questions about an FBI informant, treating him as an actual suspect they were investigating.
联邦调查局特工四处询问有关联邦调查局线人的问题，将他视为他们正在调查的真正嫌疑人。
FBI Special Agents not only interviewed Mohamed and Niazi.
联邦调查局特工不仅采访了穆罕默德和尼亚齐。
They also questioned other people who had been hanging out with Craig.
他们还询问了与克雷格一起闲逛的其他人。
I talked to five people who willingly took part in these interviews.
我与五个愿意参加这些采访的人进行了交谈。
At the time, they thought they were helping catch a dangerous person.
当时，他们以为自己是在帮忙抓捕一个危险人物。
Mohamed and Niazi even went in front of a judge in Orange County Superior Court and got a restraining order against Craig so that he couldn't come within 200 yards of the mosque.
穆罕默德和尼亚齐甚至在奥兰治县高等法院的法官面前获得了针对克雷格的限制令，禁止他进入清真寺 200 码范围内。
But looking back, the people the FBI interviewed told me there was something weird about the way the agents were acting through this whole ordeal.
但回想起来，联邦调查局采访的人告诉我，特工们在整个磨难中的表现有些奇怪。
They just didn't seem that concerned.
他们只是看起来并不那么关心。
Yasser, one of the Egyptians, said it wasn't what he imagined would happen when you call in the feds on a possible terrorist.
埃及人之一亚西尔说，当你向联邦调查局通报可能的恐怖分子时，这并不是他想象的那样。
My picture in my head is, if you go and bring that up, it's on.
我脑海中的画面是，如果你提出这个问题，它就开始了。
Let's go, let's find this person.
走吧，我们去找这个人。
Let's make sure we're stopping them.
让我们确保我们能够阻止他们。
They would be at his door immediately-- 30 cars, blah, blah, movie style-- kind of like break in, let's get this guy.
他们会立即到他家门口——30辆车，废话，废话，电影风格——有点像闯入，让我们抓住这个人。
That wasn't the reaction, right?
那不是反应，对吧？
That wasn't the reaction we were getting.
这不是我们得到的反应。
The agents did ask questions about Craig-- how often did he come to the mosque?
特工确实询问了有关克雷格的问题——他多久来一次清真寺？
Who else did he hang out with?
他还和谁一起出去玩？
What kinds of things did he say?
他说了些什么？
But with Yasser and others, they gradually began to ask more personal questions.
但对于亚西尔和其他人来说，他们逐渐开始提出更多个人问题。
How many times did you talk with Farouk about jihad?
你和法鲁克多少次谈论过圣战？
What do you think jihad means?
你认为圣战意味着什么？
When did you come to the United States?
你什么时候来美国的？
Again, Yasser.
再说一次，亚西尔。
These guys knew exactly what was going on.
这些家伙清楚地知道发生了什么事。
They knew he was their informant.
他们知道他是他们的线人。
I think it was just another way for them to get us in and talk to them.
我认为这只是他们让我们加入并与他们交谈的另一种方式。
Some people were visited by the FBI more than once, like Mohamed.
有些人不止一次被联邦调查局探访过，比如穆罕默德。
One day, FBI agents surprised him at his house.
有一天，联邦调查局特工来到他家，让他大吃一惊。
He asked them how the investigation into Farouk was going.
他询问他们对法鲁克的调查进展如何。
They told him Farouk was a dangerous guy and he would be in trouble soon.
他们告诉他法鲁克是一个危险的家伙，他很快就会遇到麻烦。
But Mohamed says the agents were there to talk about someone else.
但穆罕默德表示，特工们在那里谈论的是其他人。
They asked me a couple of questions about Ahmad Niazi, how much information I know about him.
他们问了我几个关于艾哈迈德·尼亚齐的问题，以及我对他了解多少。
And I told him, I don't know anything about Ahmad Niazi except that he is a person that comes and prays in the mosque, and I know him through the community.
我告诉他，我对艾哈迈德·尼亚齐一无所知，只知道他是一个来清真寺祈祷的人，我是通过社区认识他的。
I didn't know him before that, and I don't know very much information about him.
在此之前我并不认识他，也不太了解他的信息。
They said, we just wanted to collect more information about that person.
他们说，我们只是想收集有关该人的更多信息。
I told him, I told you what I know about him.
我告诉他，我告诉你我对他的了解。
That's all.
就这样。
This was strange for Mohamed.
这对穆罕默德来说很奇怪。
Niazi was the one who had helped him report Craig.
尼亚齐是帮助他举报克雷格的人。
Why were the FBI agents asking about him?
为什么联邦调查局探员要询问他的情况？
By the spring of 2007, the FBI had honed in on Niazi.
到 2007 年春天，联邦调查局 (FBI) 已经盯上了尼亚齐。
It's unclear exactly why, but court records reveal one thing that got their attention.
目前还不清楚具体原因，但法庭记录揭示了一件引起他们注意的事情。
One of Niazi's sisters was married to a man named Amin al-Haq.
尼亚齐的一个姐妹嫁给了一个名叫阿明·哈克的男人。
Al-Haq was designated as a terrorist by the US government.
哈克被美国政府认定为恐怖分子。
He'd allegedly served as a security coordinator for Osama bin Laden.
据称他曾担任奥萨马·本·拉登的安全协调员。
And Niazi also said things to Craig that concerned the FBI.
尼亚齐还向克雷格说了一些与联邦调查局有关的事情。
None of Craig's recordings have been released, so we don't know what exactly they talked about, but Craig gave us dozens of emails Niazi sent him.
克雷格的录音都没有公开，所以我们不知道他们到底谈论了什么，但克雷格给了我们几十封尼亚齐发给他的电子邮件。
They're mostly articles and links to videos.
它们主要是文章和视频链接。
Some of these are about conspiracy theories, like how 9/11 was an inside job.
其中一些是关于阴谋论的，比如 9/11 是一场内部活动。
Others criticized the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, sometimes calling for Muslims to rise up against their enemies.
其他人批评阿富汗和伊拉克战争，有时呼吁穆斯林奋起反抗敌人。
This YouTube video is the most extreme thing my producer and I found in the emails.
这段 YouTube 视频是我和制作人在电子邮件中发现的最极端的内容。
It's an email I'm talking about how he supports Osama bin Laden.
我在这封电子邮件中谈论的是他如何支持奥萨马·本·拉登。
If he is terrorizing the terrorist, if he is terrorizing America the terrorist-- biggest terrorist-- I am with him.
如果他正在恐吓恐怖分子，如果他正在恐吓美国恐怖分子——最大的恐怖分子——我就支持他。
Every Muslim should be a terrorist.
每个穆斯林都应该是恐怖分子。
The thing is that, if he's terrorizing a terrorist, he's for Islam!
问题是，如果他在恐吓恐怖分子，那么他就是支持伊斯兰教的！
In case you didn't get that, he said every Muslim should be a terrorist.
如果你不明白的话，他说每个穆斯林都应该是恐怖分子。
Niazi sent this video to an undercover FBI informant, Craig.
尼亚齐将这段视频发送给联邦调查局卧底线人克雷格。
They said that I hit a jackpot with Niazi.
他们说我和尼亚齐中了大奖。
They call it a jackpot.
他们称之为大奖。
Even after Niazi turned Craig in, for nearly a year, the FBI continued to surveil Niazi.
即使在尼亚齐告发克雷格之后，联邦调查局仍继续监视尼亚齐近一年。
Finally, two agents came to talk to him.
最后，两名特工前来与他交谈。
After they left, Niazi immediately called Hussam Ayloush at CAIR.
他们离开后，尼亚齐立即给 CAIR 的胡萨姆·艾卢什 (Hussam Ayloush) 打电话。
He actually was crying.
他其实是在哭。
I mean, he was crying like a little kid, very fearful.
我的意思是，他哭得像个小孩子，非常害怕。
And he kept repeating, I'm the one who called the FBI.
他不断重复，我是给联邦调查局打电话的人。
I'm the one, and now they're turning on me?
我就是那个人，现在他们却针对我？
The lead agent who met with Niazi was Thomas Ropel, who handled his case inside the FBI.
与尼亚齐会面的首席特工是托马斯·罗佩尔（Thomas Ropel），他在联邦调查局内部处理了他的案件。
Niazi said Ropel threatened him, told him that the FBI had something on him, told Niazi that he'd lied to them-- which is a federal crime-- at an earlier meeting with FBI agents, one of the meetings where Niazi thought he was there to help the FBI catch Craig.
尼亚齐说，罗佩尔威胁他，告诉他联邦调查局掌握了他的情报，并告诉尼亚齐他在早些时候与联邦调查局特工的一次会面中对他们撒了谎，这是联邦犯罪，尼亚齐认为他在那里是为了帮助联邦调查局抓捕克雷格。
Here's Hussam.
这是胡萨姆。
And the agent actually told him, based on our interviews with you, you've made comments that are not accurate, and this would be perjury.
代理人实际上告诉他，根据我们对您的采访，您的评论不准确，这将是伪证。
And I feel bad for you, but you know, it's in your hands.
我为你感到难过，但你知道，它掌握在你的手中。
You can change all of that if you cooperate with us.
如果您与我们合作，您可以改变这一切。
They said, you know, you speak Arabic, Pashto, and Dari, and you could be a great asset in helping us protect the country.
他们说，你知道，你会说阿拉伯语、普什图语和达里语，你可以成为帮助我们保护国家的宝贵财富。
He said, well, that's what I did.
他说，好吧，我就是这么做的。
I don't need to work for you.
我不需要为你工作。
When I saw something bad, I'm the one who picked up the phone and reported it.
当我看到不好的事情时，我就是第一个拿起电话举报的人。
So, well, we need you here, and we need you in Afghanistan.
所以，我们这里需要你，阿富汗也需要你。
They offered them to be in Afghanistan, and they offered him money.
他们邀请他们去阿富汗，并给他钱。
He said, I'm not going to go and spy on my people.
他说，我不会去监视我的人民。
I told you, if I see something bad, I'll report it.
我告诉过你，如果我看到不好的事情，我会举报。
And then the guy told him, I hope you think about it, because if you don't, we can make your life a living hell.
然后那家伙告诉他，我希望你考虑一下，因为如果你不考虑，我们会让你的生活变成人间地狱。
That's exactly the quote he gave me, because I wrote it down as he was talking to me.
这正是他给我的引言，因为我在他跟我说话时写下了它。
Thomas Ropel confirmed in court that this meeting happened, though he did not say that he pressured Niazi to work for the FBI.
托马斯·罗佩尔在法庭上证实了这次会面的发生，尽管他没有说他向尼亚齐施压，要求他为联邦调查局工作。
But ex-FBI agents my producer and I talked to said it's common to leverage people like this.
但我和我的制片人交谈过的前联邦调查局特工表示，利用这样的人是很常见的。
Again, they weren't commenting on Niazi's case, but one retired agent who had more than 20 years' experience in the Bureau said there are people all over the country being approached by the FBI and pressured with things they said on tapes.
同样，他们没有对尼亚齐的案件发表评论，但一位在联邦调查局工作了 20 多年的退休特工表示，全国各地都有人受到 FBI 的接触，并用他们在录音带上所说的话施加压力。
He laughed when we asked him about it.
当我们问他这件事时，他笑了。
It was like asking a plumber if he used a wrench.
这就像问水管工是否使用扳手一样。
He says it happens at every level of law enforcement.
他说这种情况发生在各级执法部门。
He told us, quote, "It sounds like a terrible thing, guys, but it's the way business is done.
他告诉我们，“伙计们，这听起来像是一件可怕的事情，但这就是做生意的方式。
It's the way the American people get protected.
这是美国人民受到保护的方式。
You've got to find people who can lead you to the bad guys."
你必须找到能带你去找坏人的人。”
Thomas Ropel returned with a group of agents and a search warrant.
托马斯·罗佩尔带着一群特工和搜查令回来了。
They raided Niazi's house, taking computers and financial documents.
他们突袭了尼亚齐的家，拿走了电脑和财务文件。
Months later, Ropel returned again and arrested Niazi.
几个月后，罗佩尔再次返回并逮捕了尼亚齐。
For the second time, federal authorities move in on this Tustin home.
联邦当局第二次搬入塔斯廷的这座住宅。
Their target?
他们的目标？
The 34-year-old owner.
店主今年34岁。
Tonight, this local home looks empty, but today, it was the scene of an FBI raid.
今晚，这座当地的住宅看起来空无一人，但今天，这里却是联邦调查局突袭的现场。
The suspect?
嫌疑人？
A man with alleged ties to terrorists.
一名据称与恐怖分子有联系的男子。
The government charged Niazi with immigration fraud and making false statements.
政府指控尼亚齐犯有移民欺诈和虚假陈述罪。
They said that when Niazi applied for US citizenship, he didn't mention that his sister was married to Amin al-Haq even though you're required to disclose if you have any ties to a designated terrorist.
他们说，当尼亚齐申请美国公民身份时，他没有提到他的妹妹嫁给了阿明·哈克，尽管你被要求披露你是否与指定的恐怖分子有任何联系。
They also charged him for using inconsistent versions of his full name on official forums and for not disclosing two trips he'd made to Pakistan years earlier.
他们还指控他在官方论坛上使用不一致的全名版本，并且没有透露他几年前两次前往巴基斯坦的情况。
But what's interesting about Niazi's arrest is what he wasn't charged with.
但尼亚齐被捕的有趣之处在于他没有受到指控。
He wasn't charged with associating with terrorists himself, he wasn't charged with plotting an attack, and he wasn't charged for anything he'd ever said to Craig over the course of months of recorded conversations.
他没有被指控与恐怖分子有联系，没有被指控策划袭击，也没有因为在几个月的录音谈话中与克雷格说过的话而受到指控。
Still, at Niazi's bail hearing, the prosecutor argued that he was a danger to the community.
尽管如此，在尼亚齐的保释听证会上，检察官辩称他对社区构成危险。
To prove that, she called Agent Thomas Ropel to the stand.
为了证明这一点，她叫特工托马斯·罗佩尔出庭作证。
Will you please state your full name for the record?
请注明您的全名以供记录吗？
How do you spell your last name, please?
请问你的姓氏怎么拼写？
Ropel testified that a confidential informant had recorded the Niazi talking about jihad between 15 and 20 times.
罗佩尔作证说，一名机密线人记录了尼亚齐谈论圣战的次数 15 至 20 次。
In addition, he said--
此外，他还说——
There were some recordings that I had personally listened to regarding Mr. Niazi discussing gaining access to weapons and discussing blowing up buildings.
我亲自听过一些关于尼亚齐先生讨论获得武器和炸毁建筑物的录音。
And--
还有——
As Ropel went on, the judge asked him to clarify who had brought up these conversations-- Niazi, or the informant?
当罗佩尔继续说下去时，法官要求他澄清是谁提出了这些谈话——尼亚齐，还是线人？
--Mr. Niazi has instigated these conversations with an individual.
- 先生。尼亚齐发起了与某人的这些对话。
Mr. Niazi did.
尼亚齐先生做到了。
Yes, correct.
是的，正确。
Sam Black Of course, the individual he supposedly instigated the conversations with was Craig Monteilh.
萨姆·布莱克 当然，据称他发起谈话的人是克雷格·蒙泰尔。
I asked Craig about it.
我向克雷格询问了此事。
Did Niazi ever instigate this kind of conversation with you?
尼亚齐有没有挑起过你这样的谈话吗？
No, no. I did, every time.
不，不。我每次都这么做。
Sam Black Craig has changed his story on this.
萨姆·布莱克·克雷格改变了他的说法。
When Niazi was arrested in 2009, he basically said the complete opposite.
2009 年尼亚齐被捕时，他基本上说了完全相反的内容。
He said Niazi recruited him for a terrorist operation.
他说尼亚齐招募他参与恐怖行动。
But Craig says now he's telling the truth.
但克雷格说现在他说的是实话。
He says what really happened is that he went after Niazi more aggressively than anyone.
他说，真正发生的事情是，他比任何人都更积极地追捕尼亚齐。
Niazi wanted a friend, and he tolerated Craig's jihad talk more than most.
尼亚齐想要一个朋友，而且他比大多数人更能容忍克雷格的圣战言论。
The thing about Niazi was he tried to impress me.
尼亚齐的特点是他试图给我留下深刻的印象。
He's like 5'5" or so, and I was somewhat intimidating to him, so he just went along with what I said.
他身高大概有五英尺五英寸左右，我对他来说有点吓人，所以他就照着我说的做了。
He didn't say he wanted to be a part of this, but he didn't say to me, no, I don't.
他没有说他想参与其中，但他也没有对我说，不，我不想。
It's a very bad thing to do when you're being recorded.
当你被录音时，这是一件非常糟糕的事情。
Did you feel like, I've got this guy who's ideologically leaning towards jihad?
你是否觉得，我遇到了一个在意识形态上倾向于圣战的人？
What I thought was, I can bring him there.
我的想法是，我可以把他带到那里。
He was afraid.
他很害怕。
He looked like he was scared, which is where I wanted him to be.
他看上去很害怕，这正是我希望他出现的样子。
And my handlers told me to reel him in more.
我的训练员告诉我要更多地卷起他。
And he was just mesmerized by me.
他只是被我迷住了。
I talked to people who know Niazi, and they backed this up.
我和认识尼亚齐的人交谈过，他们也支持这一点。
Niazi mentored Craig, but at the same time, he was enthralled by him-- at least until the moment when he and Mohamed decided to turn Craig in to the FBI.
尼亚齐指导了克雷格，但同时，他也被克雷格迷住了——至少直到他和穆罕默德决定将克雷格交给联邦调查局的那一刻为止。
The government kept Niazi under house arrest for more than a year, with a curfew and an ankle bracelet.
政府将尼亚齐软禁了一年多，并实行宵禁和脚镯。
When I reached out to Niazi for this story, he sent me a statement.
当我联系尼亚齐了解这个故事时，他给我发了一份声明。
It says in part, "When the FBI agent threatened to make my life a living hell unless I became an informant-- which I refused-- the FBI made true its promise and really did make my life a living hell.
其中部分内容是，“当联邦调查局特工威胁要让我的生活变成人间地狱，除非我成为线人时——我拒绝了——联邦调查局兑现了它的承诺，确实让我的生活变成了人间地狱。
In the past few years, my family and I have been struggling very hard to piece back together our lives."
在过去的几年里，我和我的家人一直在努力拼凑我们的生活。”
The government eventually decided it didn't want to pursue Niazi's case.
政府最终决定不再追究尼亚齐的案件。
It filed a motion to dismiss all of the charges.
它提出了一项驳回所有指控的动议。
Operation Flex ended without a single known conviction.
Flex行动结束时没有任何已知的定罪。
One person did go to jail, though-- Craig Monteilh.
不过，确实有一个人入狱了——克雷格·蒙泰尔。
Six months after Craig was reported as a potential terrorist, the Irvine Police arrested him for a bizarre, unrelated crime.
克雷格被报道为潜在恐怖分子六个月后，尔湾警方因一项奇怪的、无关的犯罪行为逮捕了他。
It turned out that during Operation Flex, he'd been running a side hustle, conning two women out of more than $150,000 in a scheme to traffic human growth hormone.
原来，在 Flex 行动期间，他一直在从事副业，通过贩运人类生长激素的计划骗取了两名妇女超过 15 万美元。
He met the women at the same gyms where he was monitoring Muslims.
他在监视穆斯林的同一家健身房里遇见了这些女性。
He went to prison for eight months.
他入狱八个月。
Craig sued the FBI over this, claiming the whole thing was part of an FBI drug sting and that his handlers conspired to have him arrested after he became useless in Operation Flex.
克雷格就此起诉联邦调查局，声称整件事是联邦调查局毒品刺杀的一部分，他的上司在他在“Flex行动”中变得毫无用处后密谋逮捕他。
A judge recently threw the case out.
一名法官最近驳回了此案。
You can probably imagine what Operation Flex and its aftermath did to relations between the FBI and the Muslim community in Orange County.
您可能可以想象“弹性行动”及其后果对联邦调查局与奥兰治县穆斯林社区之间的关系造成了怎样的影响。
Hussam Ayloush, the head of CAIR in Southern California, remembers the moment at Niazi's bail hearing when the FBI revealed that Craig was an undercover informant.
南加州 CAIR 负责人胡萨姆·艾卢什 (Hussam Ayloush) 还记得尼亚齐保释听证会上联邦调查局 (FBI) 透露克雷格是卧底线人的那一刻。
Hussam was in the courtroom.
胡萨姆在法庭上。
It was almost like a dagger in my back.
这几乎就像一把匕首插在我的背上。
I felt betrayed-- the whole community, not just me.
我感到被背叛了——整个社区，而不仅仅是我。
We felt betrayed, because we talk about a partnership.
我们感到被背叛了，因为我们谈论的是伙伴关系。
If you see something, report it.
如果您看到什么，请报告。
If you suspect criminal behavior, call the police.
如果您怀疑有犯罪行为，请报警。
People were saying, why should we do it?
人们说，我们为什么要这样做？
We're going to be the one, the target of the investigation.
我们将成为调查的目标。
The reality is, they never thought of us as partners.
现实是，他们从未将我们视为合作伙伴。
For them, we were all suspects.
对于他们来说，我们都是嫌疑人。
We were always deemed as suspects or potential terrorists.
我们总是被视为嫌疑人或潜在的恐怖分子。
Operation Flex didn't just make people suspicious of law enforcement, it made them suspicious of each other.
Flex行动不仅让人们对执法部门产生怀疑，还让他们互相怀疑。
So many people I talked to said they stay away from new converts now.
我采访过的很多人都说他们现在远离新皈依者。
They have a hard time believing people are who they say they are.
他们很难相信人们就是他们所说的那样。
Here's Ayman, the Egyptian guy who first befriended Craig.
这是艾曼，第一个与克雷格成为朋友的埃及人。
Really, what they did is they made everybody in the mosque not trust everybody.
确实，他们所做的是让清真寺里的每个人都不信任每个人。
Nobody, nobody would talk about it, but nobody would-- you would see some weird looks, you know what I mean?
没有人，没有人会谈论它，但没有人会——你会看到一些奇怪的表情，你知道我的意思吗？
People are looking at each other weird.
人们互相看着对方，眼神很奇怪。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Maybe I was sensitive, but I can tell that the way they looked at me was just different.
也许是我比较敏感，但我看得出来，他们看我的眼神不一样了。
In one of the most awkward developments of this story, the Muslim community is now teaming up with Craig Monteilh.
在这个故事中最尴尬的发展之一是，穆斯林社区现在正在与克雷格·蒙泰尔合作。
The Council on American-Islamic Relations, CAIR, along with the ACLU, is suing the FBI Operation Flex.
美国伊斯兰关系委员会 (CAIR) 和美国公民自由联盟 (ACLU) 正在起诉联邦调查局的 Flex 行动。
The government is arguing in response that allowing the case to go forward would reveal state secrets and harm national security.
政府回应称，允许案件继续审理将泄露国家机密并损害国家安全。
Craig is CAIR's primary resource in the case.
Craig 是 CAIR 在该案中的主要资源。
He's now helping the people he used to spy on.
他现在正在帮助他曾经监视的人。
And he's been apologizing to some of them, too.
他也一直在向其中一些人道歉。
He sees them often, because he still lives around the corner from the Irvine mosque and works out in the same gym.
他经常见到他们，因为他仍然住在尔湾清真寺附近，并在同一个健身房锻炼。
He made a special point of calling Yasser AbdelRahim, one of the first people he got close to.
他特别给亚西尔·阿卜杜勒·拉希姆 (Yasser AbdelRahim) 打电话，他是他最早接触的人之一。
I definitely appreciate the fact that he called, and that he apologized for it, but the damage is done.
我非常感谢他打电话并为此道歉，但损害已经造成了。
I don't know what to do, I really don't.
我不知道该怎么办，我真的不知道。
I now have a fear that I'm being monitored all the time.
我现在担心自己一直被监视。
I don't know how you can change that.
我不知道你怎样才能改变这一点。
Craig's not the only one apologizing.
克雷格并不是唯一一个道歉的人。
After Niazi's charges were dismissed, he went to the courthouse to retrieve some of the property that the FBI had seized from his house.
尼亚齐的指控被驳回后，他前往法院取回联邦调查局从他家中没收的部分财产。
Thomas Ropel was there.
托马斯·罗佩尔也在场。
They talked for about 20 minutes.
他们聊了大约20分钟。
Remember, Ropel is the agent who allegedly threatened Niazi, who later arrested him, and who then testified in court that he was a danger to society.
请记住，罗佩尔是据称威胁尼亚齐的特工，尼亚齐后来逮捕了他，并在法庭上作证说他对社会构成危险。
I spoke to the court employee who accompanied Niazi to this meeting.
我与陪同尼亚齐参加这次会议的法院工作人员进行了交谈。
Before they left, Ropel went over to Niazi and shook his hand.
在他们离开之前，罗佩尔走到尼亚齐身边并与他握手。
He told Niazi that mistakes had been made.
他告诉尼亚齐已经犯了错误。
We're all human, he said.
我们都是人，他说。
I'm sorry.
对不起。
Sam Black.
萨姆·布莱克.
He's a documentary filmmaker.
他是一位纪录片制片人。
His latest film, Kingdom of Silence, about murdered Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi, is streaming on Showtime.
他的最新电影《沉默王国》讲述了被谋杀的沙特记者贾迈勒·卡舒吉的故事，正在 Showtime 上播出。
Like we said earlier, the Supreme Court case that came out of these events was argued last month.
正如我们之前所说，最高法院因这些事件而提起的案件已于上个月进行了辩论。
The central issue in the case, FBI versus Fazaga, is whether the FBI was spying on people just because they were Muslim-- which, if true, would be unconstitutional.
FBI 诉 Fazaga 案的核心问题是，FBI 是否仅仅因为人们是穆斯林而对其进行监视——如果属实，将违反宪法。
But the Supreme Court wasn't hearing arguments on that question.
但最高法院没有听取有关该问题的论点。
After all this time, the court system hasn't gotten to that question, because the government is trying to get the case thrown out.
这么长时间以来，法院系统还没有解决这个问题，因为政府正试图驳回此案。
The government says the FBI had good reasons to surveil all these people, but to mount a proper defense and explain what those reasons are, they would have to reveal secret information-- state secrets-- that would compromise national security.
政府表示，联邦调查局有充分的理由监视所有这些人，但为了进行适当的辩护并解释这些原因，他们必须披露会损害国家安全的秘密信息（国家机密）。
And they're saying that because there are state secrets involved, the court should throw out the case entirely.
他们还说，因为涉及国家机密，法院应该完全驳回此案。
The lawyers bringing the suit on behalf of the Muslim community in Irvine argued before the Supreme Court that this goes too far.
代表尔湾穆斯林社区提起诉讼的律师在最高法院辩称，这太过分了。
They don't have to throw out the case.
他们不必放弃这个案子。
There are ways the case can still move forward.
案件仍然可以通过多种方式继续推进。
One of them, there's a law-- the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, or FISA-- that would allow a judge to look at the classified materials.
其中之一是，有一项法律——《外国情报监视法》（FISA）——允许法官查看机密材料。
The state secrets still would not be public.
国家机密仍然不会公开。
The judge could see them; nobody else could.
法官可以看到他们；其他人不能。
And then, the judge would come to a decision in the case.
然后，法官将对案件做出裁决。
Or, the lawyers say, the courts could just let the case proceed without any secret evidence at all-- just leave that stuff out of the case.
或者，律师们说，法院可以在没有任何秘密证据的情况下让案件继续进行——只需将这些东西排除在案件之外即可。
The bigger principle here, in their view, is that there should be a way for people to get their day in court, even in a case where the government claims there are state secrets.
在他们看来，这里更大的原则是，即使在政府声称存在国家机密的情况下，人们也应该有办法在法庭上获得胜利。
If the Supreme Court does allow the case to go forward, the lawyer who argued the case for the Muslim community, Ahilan Arulanantham, said ultimately, if they win, they want all the information gathered in the surveillance operation to be destroyed.
为穆斯林社区辩护的律师 Ahilan Arulanantham 表示，如果最高法院确实允许案件继续审理，他们最终希望销毁在监视行动中收集到的所有信息。
And that is really important to the people in this community.
这对于这个社区的人们来说非常重要。
They really were upset that the government spied on them while they were just living their lives, going to mosque in the morning, hanging out.
他们真的很沮丧，因为政府在他们过着自己的生活、早上去清真寺、闲逛时监视他们。
Like you heard Yasser AbdelRahim playing Xbox, FIFA, with his roommates.
就像您听到 Yasser AbdelRahim 和他的室友一起玩 Xbox、FIFA 一样。
And it's really deeply offensive to people that the government spied, got all that information.
政府监视并获取所有这些信息，这对人们来说确实是一种极大的冒犯。
It's sitting somewhere in some digital vault in the FBI, and they want all of that burned.
它位于联邦调查局某个数字金库的某个地方，他们希望将其全部烧毁。
[MUSIC - "PLEASE DON'T FOLLOW ME" BY JAMES MURPHY]
[音乐 - 詹姆斯·墨菲的《请不要跟着我》]
Well, our program was produced today by Lisa Pollock with Alex Blumberg, Ben Calhoun, Sarah Koenig, Jonathan Menjivar, Brian Reed, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, and Nancy Updike.
今天我们的节目由丽莎·波洛克 (Lisa Pollock) 与亚历克斯·布伦伯格 (Alex Blumberg)、本·卡尔霍恩 (Ben Calhoun)、莎拉·科尼格 (Sarah Koenig)、乔纳森·曼吉瓦 (Jonathan Menjivar)、布莱恩·里德 (Brian Reed)、罗宾·塞米恩 (Robyn Semien)、艾丽莎·希普 (Alissa Shipp) 和南希·厄普代克 (Nancy Updike) 共同制作。
Our senior producer for this episode was Julie Snyder.
我们本集的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
Music help from Damien Graef and from Rob Geddes.
Damien Graef 和 Rob Geddes 提供音乐帮助。
Production help on today's rerun from Katherine Rae Mondo, Stowe Nelson, Matt Tierney, and Chloe Weiner.
凯瑟琳·雷·蒙多、斯托·纳尔逊、马特·蒂尔尼和克洛伊·韦纳为今天的重播提供了制作帮助。
Special thanks today to Petra Bartosiewicz Dina Temple-Raston, Sara Goldblatt, Cyrus McGoldrick, Benjamin Anastas, Ameena Qazi, Affad Shaikh, and Lawrence Wright.
今天特别感谢 Petra Bartosiewicz Dina Temple-Raston、Sara Goldblatt、Cyrus McGoldrick、Benjamin Anastas、Ameena Qazi、Affad Shaikh 和 Lawrence Wright。
Thanks also today to Michael German, Masih Faloudi, Mohammad Tajsar, Hussam Ayloush, and Trevor Aaronson, the journalist Sam interviewed about the 500 FBI cases.
今天还要感谢记者 Sam 采访了 500 起 FBI 案件，Michael German、Masih Faloudi、Mohammad Tajsar、Hussam Ayloush 和 Trevor Aaronson。
He has a book about those cases, The Terror Factory: Inside the FBI's Manufactured War on Terrorism.
他有一本关于这些案件的书，《恐怖工厂：联邦调查局制造的反恐战争内部》。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org, where you can stream our archive of over 750 episodes for absolutely free.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org，您可以在其中完全免费地观看我们的 750 多集档案。
Also, there's videos.
另外，还有视频。
There's lists of favorite shows.
有最喜欢的节目列表。
There's tons of other stuff there, too.
那里还有很多其他东西。
Again thisamericanlife.org.
又是thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our boss, Mr. Torey Malatia who-- and you may know this-- he wakes up early every morning, throws off the covers, looks at the alarm clock, takes a deep breath, and tells the world--
一如既往地感谢我们的老板托里·马拉蒂亚先生，你可能知道这一点，他每天早上很早就起床，掀开被子，看着闹钟，深吸一口气，然后告诉世界——
5:45 AM, and I am hot.
凌晨 5:45，我很热。
Ira Glass I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 我是艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass），下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
Next week on the podcast of This American Life, stories of what happens when you follow the rules, act responsibly, look out for others' welfare, when you're the grown-up in the situation, and things do not work out for you.
下周的《This American Life》播客将讲述当你遵守规则、负责任地行事、关心他人的福祉时，当你是成年人，而事情不适合你时，会发生什么的故事。
You do not get rewarded.
你不会得到奖励。
Others who ignore the rules jump ahead of you.
其他无视规则的人会跳到你前面。
In short, we're talking about one of the most frustrating things that happens when you do everything right, and it leads nowhere.
简而言之，我们谈论的是当你做对一切却毫无结果时发生的最令人沮丧的事情之一。
True tales next week on the podcast or on your local public radio station.
下周播客或当地公共广播电台将播放真实故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。