752: An Invitation to Tea - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #752 | October 29, 2021 752: An Invitation to Tea Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 752 集 | 2021 年 10 月 29 日 752：茶会邀请 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而生，旨在被聆听。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass
序言：序言 艾拉·格拉斯
OK.
好的。
So a man sits in front of a camera in his own home, trying to somehow summarize who he is, all that had happened to him over 14 years.
于是，一个男人坐在自己家里的摄像机前，试图以某种方式总结自己是谁，以及 14 年来发生在他身上的一切。
Hi, everyone.
大家好。
My name is Mohamedou Ould Slahi.
我的名字是穆罕默德·乌尔德·斯拉希。
I'm from Mauritania.
我来自毛里塔尼亚。
It's hard, right?
这很难，对吧？
Like, do people even know where Mauritania is?
比如，人们知道毛里塔尼亚在哪里吗？
He tries another take.
他尝试了另一种方式。
I am from Mauritania.
我来自毛里塔尼亚。
In case you don't know what Mauritania is, which is very likely, it's in West Africa.
如果您不知道毛里塔尼亚是什么，很可能它位于西非。
And he continues at length.
他继续说道。
Doesn't work.
不起作用。
This is too long.
这太长了。
Too preachy.
太说教了。
Another take.
另一个镜头。
Hi, everyone.
大家好。
Peace be with you.
愿平安与你同在。
My name is Mohamedou Ould Slahi.
我的名字是穆罕默德·乌尔德·斯拉希。
I was kidnapped in 2001, and spent more than 14 years, mostly in Guantanamo Bay.
我于 2001 年被绑架，并在关塔那摩湾度过了超过 14 年的时间。
During this 14 years in Guantanamo, the United States government came to believe that he recruited into Al-Qaeda men who later became hijackers in the 9-11 attacks.
在关塔那摩的这 14 年里，美国政府逐渐相信他招募了基地组织成员，这些人后来成为 9-11 袭击中的劫机者。
But they never charged him with that, or anything else.
但他们从未指控他这一点或其他任何事情。
Mohamedou Slahi was tortured, on one occasion beaten quite badly.
穆罕默德杜·斯拉希 (Mohamedou Slahi) 受到酷刑，有一次被殴打得很惨。
He was kept awake by loud music, made to stand for hours at a time, left shackled in a cold room.
吵闹的音乐让他无法入睡，他还被迫站立数小时，并被铐在寒冷的房间里。
The torture stopped after a few months, but they kept him for another 13 years.
几个月后，酷刑停止了，但他们又关押了他13年。
A judge ruled that the government could prove that he had been in touch with people in Al-Qaeda and sometimes help them out, but failed to show more than that and didn't have enough evidence to hold him.
一名法官裁定，政府可以证明他与基地组织人员有联系，有时还帮助他们摆脱困境，但未能提供更多证据，也没有足够的证据来逮捕他。
So finally he was released.
所以最后他被释放了。
And if you've only heard of one Guantanamo detainee, this man, Mohamedou Slahi might be that guy.
如果您只听说过一名关塔那摩被拘留者，那么穆罕默德·斯拉希 (Mohamedou Slahi) 可能就是那个人。
He wrote a book, originally called Guantanamo Diary, published while he was still locked up, became a cause for human rights groups and celebrities.
他写了一本书，最初名为《关塔那摩日记》，在他被关押期间出版，成为人权组织和名人的事业。
There's a movie about him with Jodie Foster, and Benedict Cumberbatch, and Tahar Raheem.
有一部关于他的电影，由朱迪·福斯特、本尼迪克特·康伯巴奇和塔哈·拉希姆主演。
These days he is living in Mauritania.
这些天他住在毛里塔尼亚。
Maybe the most famous person in the country.
也许是这个国家最有名的人。
People stop him on the street and at the beach.
人们在街上和海滩上拦住他。
He married an American human rights lawyer, had a son, is writing another book, just published a novel.
他与一位美国人权律师结婚，育有一个儿子，正在写另一本书，刚刚出版了一本小说。
And the purpose of this video he was shooting was very particular.
而且他拍摄这个视频的目的也很特别。
He wanted to issue an invitation to everyone who knew him at Guantanamo Bay, the guards and interrogators, everybody.
他想向关塔那摩湾所有认识他的人发出邀请，包括警卫和审讯人员，所有人。
Some of you guys mistreated me, even tortured me.
你们中有些人虐待我，甚至折磨我。
But I'm telling you wholeheartedly that I have forgiven you.
但我全心全意地告诉你，我已经原谅你了。
I hold no grudge against you guys.
我对你们没有怨恨。
Honest to God.
对神诚实。
I invite all of you to my house so we could drink tea and talk about the past.
我邀请你们所有人到我家来，我们可以喝茶，谈论过去。
Thank you very much and God bless you.
非常感谢你，愿上帝保佑你。
This invitation to tea, it's also at the very end of his book.
这个喝茶的邀请，也在他书的最后。
And for a long time, nobody took him up on it.
而且很长一段时间，没有人接受他。
But then by chance one of the guards from Guantanamo noticed on Facebook that Mohamedou was out and messaged him.
但后来，关塔那摩的一名警卫偶然在 Facebook 上注意到穆罕默德外出了，并给他发了消息。
The guard's name is Scott, though Mohamedou knew him as Master Jedi.
这名警卫的名字叫斯科特，尽管穆罕默德知道他是绝地大师。
Guards didn't use their real names.
警卫没有使用他们的真实姓名。
They wore masks.
他们戴着口罩。
Apparently there's a whole Star Wars thing going on.
显然，整个星球大战正在发生。
There was Master Yoda, Master Luke.
有尤达大师、卢克大师。
Anyway, Scott, Jedi, was really young at the time.
不管怎样，绝地斯科特当时真的很年轻。
Got sent to Guantanamo and was assigned right away to Mohamedou their most high profile detainee.
被送往关塔那摩并立即被分配给穆罕默德杜，他们最引人注目的被拘留者。
I remember going into that building scared to death because I was expecting someone about eight feet tall, 200 pounds that I didn't know what I was getting into as a young kid.
我记得走进那栋大楼时我吓得要死，因为我在等一个大约八英尺高、200磅重的人，我不知道我小时候会遇到什么。
But I opened up that screen and I see this skinny, little, tan man laying on the bed who looked like he didn't have a clue what was going on.
但我打开屏幕，看到这个瘦小、晒黑的男人躺在床上，看上去根本不知道发生了什么事。
This audio that you're hearing was collected as part of this really remarkable documentary by a filmmaker who made it his mission to track down some of the guards and interrogators Mohamedou was reaching out to with his invitation to tea, to see if they would be willing to talk to him.
你听到的这段音频是由一位电影制片人收集的，作为这部非常出色的纪录片的一部分，他的任务是追踪穆罕默德邀请他喝茶的一些警卫和审讯人员，看看他们是否愿意与他交谈。
The filmmaker who did this is John Goetz.
做到这一点的电影制片人是约翰·戈茨。
And back when Mohamedou was at Guantanamo, John was a reporter.
当穆罕默德杜在关塔那摩时，约翰是一名记者。
He was living in Germany, writing for a German audience.
他住在德国，为德国读者写作。
And he started writing about Mohamedou because Mohamedou was one of the few people at Guantanamo with a German connection.
他开始写关于穆罕默德的文章，因为穆罕默德是关塔那摩监狱中少数与德国有联系的人之一。
Mohamedou had lived in Germany for 11 years.
Mohamedou 在德国生活了 11 年。
And then when you look at his story, his story was just incredible.
然后当你看他的故事时，他的故事简直令人难以置信。
You know, he was the son of a camel herder, as part of a family with 12 kids, who ends up with this elite scholarship in Germany and becomes an engineer here, a successful engineer at one of the leading high tech companies of Germany.
你知道，他是一个骆驼牧民的儿子，是一个有 12 个孩子的家庭的一员，他最终获得了德国的精英奖学金，并成为这里的一名工程师，德国领先高科技公司之一的成功工程师。
And then at the same time he's accused of having recruited the pilots for the September 11th attacks.
与此同时，他又被指控招募飞行员参与 9 月 11 日的袭击。
After the United States concluded that it did not have the evidence for a case against Mohamedou and released him, John went to see him in Mauritania, meet him for the first time in person.
在美国认定没有针对穆罕默德案件的证据并释放他后，约翰前往毛里塔尼亚看望他，这是第一次亲自见到他。
And he asked about that invitation.
他询问了那次邀请。
And I was wondering, was it a real invitation?
我想知道，这是真正的邀请吗？
Or did he really mean that?
还是他真的是这个意思？
And did he?
他做到了吗？
John Goetz He did.
约翰·戈茨 他做到了。
He was more serious than I thought he'd be.
他比我想象的更严肃。
When I met him, he had-- it was very recent that he had gotten out.
当我见到他时，他最近才离开。
And in many ways he was just kind of ripped out of the environment he had been in for 14 years.
从很多方面来说，他都有点脱离了他已经生活了 14 年的环境。
And he wasn't finished with what happened to him.
而他身上发生的事情还没有结束。
John says that Mohamedou's lawyers told Mohamedou, absolutely do not try to track down your former captors yourself for this invitation.
约翰说，穆罕默德的律师告诉穆罕默德，绝对不要为了这个邀请而试图亲自追查你的前绑架者。
It'll look like you're stalking them.
看起来就像你在跟踪他们。
But Mohamedou asked John, as an American journalist, could he try to find these people?
但穆罕默德问约翰，作为一名美国记者，他可以尝试找到这些人吗？
He'd seen the TV documentary where John had done exactly that kind of tracking down for his story.
他看过一部电视纪录片，约翰对他的故事进行了完全相同的追踪。
And John said yes.
约翰说是的。
He thought it could be a good film.
他认为这可能是一部好电影。
And then spent two years searching for people Mohamedou had known in Guantanamo.
然后花了两年时间寻找穆罕默德在关塔那摩认识的人。
He actually spoke with about a dozen of them.
他实际上与其中大约十几个人进行了交谈。
Three were willing to talk to Mohamedou all these years later about what had gone down.
多年后，其中三个人愿意与穆罕默德谈论所发生的事情。
Two of those were people that John found, and then there was Scott, who, like I said, showed up out of the blue on his own.
其中两个是约翰找到的人，然后是斯科特，就像我说的，他突然自己出现了。
Well, Scott was one of Mohamedou's guards in the period while Mohamedou was being tortured.
嗯，在穆罕默德遭受酷刑期间，斯科特是穆罕默德的警卫之一。
And does that mean that he saw the torture or participated in the torture?
那么这是否意味着他亲眼目睹了酷刑或者参与了酷刑呢？
Scott says he did not see the torture.
斯科特说他没有看到酷刑。
Scott says he did not physically abuse Mohamedou.
斯科特说他没有对穆罕默德进行身体虐待。
But Scott says it was his role to soften up Mohamedou.
但斯科特表示，他的职责是软化穆罕默德。
That means Scott prevented Mohamedou from ever praying, gave him meals at random times, sometimes Mohamedou only got 60 seconds to eat or take a shower.
这意味着斯科特阻止穆罕默德杜祈祷，随机给他吃饭，有时穆罕默德只有 60 秒吃饭或洗澡的时间。
Pillow was Mohamedou's nickname at Guantanamo.
枕头是穆罕默德杜在关塔那摩的绰号。
Because after they tortured him and broke him, the first comfort they gave him as a reward was a pillow.
因为在他们折磨他、打断他之后，他们给他的第一个安慰作为奖励就是一个枕头。
Mohamedou's torture ended after a few months.
几个月后，穆罕默德的酷刑结束了。
Scott was there for about a month of that.
斯科特在那里呆了大约一个月。
And after the torture ended, everything between them was very different.
而酷刑结束后，他们之间的一切都大不相同了。
For starters, they were allowed to talk to each other.
首先，他们被允许互相交谈。
And they talked a lot.
他们聊了很多。
Scott guarded him in 12 hour shifts for about a year more.
斯科特以 12 小时轮班的方式看守了他大约一年。
So in that period they got to know each other quite well.
所以在那段时间里，他们彼此非常了解。
And they played chess together.
他们还一起下棋。
Apparently Mohamedou won every time they played.
显然穆罕默德每次比赛都赢了。
You know, they watched films together.
你知道，他们一起看电影。
And ended up at the end of this having quite kind of a good connection.
最终我们建立了良好的联系。
I know we barbecued a few times, gave him some of the food.
我知道我们烧烤过几次，给了他一些食物。
We used to mess with him a little bit.
我们过去常常惹他生气。
Because where his toilet was on the floor, there was a hole in the back and you could be like, Pillow, Pillow, and talk to him from that.
因为他的厕所在地板上，后面有一个洞，你可以说，枕头，枕头，然后从那里和他说话。
And he'd be like, my toilets talking, you know?
他会说，我的厕所在说话，你知道吗？
It wasn't nothing to harm with him.
这对他来说并没有什么坏处。
It was just us being bored at that time.
那时只是我们无聊而已。
So I would go back there and just be like, Pillow, Pillow, it's your toilet.
所以我会回到那里，就像，枕头，枕头，这是你的厕所。
You know?
你知道？
So to me that was pretty comical.
所以对我来说这很滑稽。
So don't hate me for that one, but I thought it was funny.
所以不要因为这个而恨我，但我觉得这很有趣。
Scott told John that after he left Guantanamo, he would think about Mohamedou and dream about him.
斯科特告诉约翰，离开关塔那摩后，他会想起穆罕默德杜并梦见他。
And back home in the state's at church, they give a talk about forgiveness and reconciliation that made him think that he should reach out.
回到家乡的州教堂，他们发表了关于宽恕与和解的演讲，这让他认为他应该伸出援手。
So when John was filming Scott in Kentucky, at one point John pulled out his iPhone and suggested they call Mohamedou right then.
因此，当约翰在肯塔基州拍摄斯科特时，约翰有一次拿出他的 iPhone，建议他们立即给 Mohamedou 打电话。
Two of Scott's kids were there.
斯科特的两个孩子也在场。
One was playing Minecraft.
其中一个正在玩《我的世界》。
There was a bunch of pets around.
周围有一群宠物。
And they got him on the phone.
他们给他打电话了。
Hey, Pillow.
嘿，枕头。
Mohamedou Ould Slahi No fucking way!
穆罕默德·乌尔德·斯拉希 他妈的不行！
Hey.
嘿。
Watch your mouth before I tie you up.
在我绑你之前注意你的嘴。
Huh?
啊？
I got fat, man.
我变胖了，伙计。
Mohamedou Ould Slahi Man, you would have been-- I like your beard, man.
Mohamedou Ould Slahi 老兄，你会的——我喜欢你的胡子，老兄。
I like your haircut.
我喜欢你的发型。
Mohamedou Ould Slahi It's beautiful.
穆罕默德·乌尔德·斯拉希 很漂亮。
I like that haircut.
我喜欢那个发型。
Mohamedou Ould Slahi Thank you very much.
穆罕默德·乌尔德·斯拉希 非常感谢。
You're shiny.
你很闪亮。
Mohamedou Ould Slahi That's automatic haircut.
Mohamedou Ould Slahi 这是自动理发。
It fell off.
它掉下来了。
Yeah.
是的。
That's the first thing he really says to him.
这是他真正对他说的第一句话。
So I feel like I never really caused you any harm, but I wanted to seek forgiveness.
所以我觉得我从来没有真正伤害过你，但我想寻求宽恕。
You know, because as a kid, a 20-year-old kid, I didn't know what I was doing.
你知道，因为作为一个孩子，一个20岁的孩子，我不知道自己在做什么。
Mohamedou says you're right, but then he brings up how some of the guards used to make him take off his orange uniform and then use it to wipe down the entire cell, including the toilet, and then put the uniform back on, and how bad that felt.
穆罕默德说你是对的，但随后他提到了一些警卫如何让他脱下橙色制服，然后用它擦拭整个牢房，包括厕所，然后穿上制服，那感觉有多糟糕。
And I was so scared.
我很害怕。
Ira Glass And how in that cell all he had was prayer, but Scott wouldn't let him pray.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：在牢房里他唯一能做的就是祈祷，但斯科特不让他祈祷。
I remember one day I ask you, why do you prevent me from praying?
我记得有一天我问你，你为什么阻止我祈祷？
Why you prevent me from doing my fasting and so-- and then you said, I don't know.
为什么你阻止我禁食等等——然后你说，我不知道。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Maybe I go to Hell for that.
也许我会为此下地狱。
You always discussed about religion and so.
你们总是讨论宗教等等。
Yeah, it's a big deal to me.
是的，这对我来说很重要。
But now that I'm at church, I realize that everyone has their own religion.
但现在我在教堂，我意识到每个人都有自己的宗教信仰。
And it's fine.
没关系。
It's totally acceptable.
这是完全可以接受的。
Correct.
正确的。
Scott I have nothing against anyone else with a different religion.
斯科特 我并不反对其他有不同宗教信仰的人。
It doesn't bother me.
我不介意。
You know, they talk for a few more minutes.
你知道，他们又聊了几分钟。
It's not a long phone call.
这不是一个很长的电话。
The line breaks down and freezes, like right in the middle of the call.
线路中断并冻结，就像在通话过程中一样。
Anyway, I just want to say, no harm done, and thank you for reaching out.
无论如何，我只想说，没有造成任何伤害，并感谢您伸出援手。
And--
还有——
You might not say there's no harm done, but you lost 14 years.
你可能不会说没有造成任何伤害，但你损失了14年。
I think we're freezing up again.
我想我们又要冻僵了。
And then, they kind of reconnect, and basically, say goodbye.
然后，他们重新建立了联系，基本上就是说再见了。
Well, look, I'm going to let you go to bed.
好吧，听着，我要让你去睡觉了。
And it was amazing talking to you.
和你说话真是太棒了。
Same here, bud.
这里也一样，伙计。
Scott It was like talking to an old friend again.
斯科特 这就像再次与一位老朋友交谈。
It was awesome.
太棒了。
I love you, man.
我爱你，伙计。
Ira Glass Oh, wait, does Mohamedou say, I love you, man?
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）哦，等等，穆罕默德有没有说，我爱你，伙计？
God, I miss that guy.
天哪，我想念那个人。
Just talking to him for just right then, you know, brings all the emotions back.
你知道，只要在那个时候和他说话，就能让所有的情绪都回来。
You know, just-- I honestly do love that guy.
你知道，只是——老实说，我确实爱那个家伙。
You know, I think he's an amazing guy.
你知道，我认为他是一个了不起的人。
I don't know why I said it, but it just came over me.
我不知道我为什么这么说，但我就是这么想的。
You know, just to know that I still have that connection with someone is absolutely amazing.
你知道，只要知道我仍然与某人保持着这种联系，这绝对是令人惊奇的。
Ira Glass We're devoting the rest of our program today to two other calls, which go very differently from the one that you just heard with Scott.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：我们今天的剩余节目将主要讨论另外两个电话会议，这两个电话会议的内容与您刚刚从斯科特那里听到的电话会议非常不同。
These two calls, they were with people who were way tougher on Mohamedou when he was locked up.
这两个电话是与穆罕默德杜被关押时对他态度更强硬的人打来的。
These are people who interrogated him back then.
这些都是当年审问他的人。
These are people who have not softened towards him today.
这些人今天对他并没有软化。
And what's so interesting about hearing these conversations is that Guantanamo has been such a black box for 20 years.
听到这些对话的有趣之处在于，关塔那摩监狱 20 年来一直是一个黑匣子。
And these conversations with Mohamedou Ould Slahi, you'll hear, give this glimpse at how the Americans and the detainees interacted in this way that I, for sure, had never heard before.
你会听到，这些与穆罕默德·乌尔德·斯拉希的对话让我们一睹美国人和被拘留者如何以我以前从未听说过的方式互动。
These conversations that are like sparring matches or, I don't know, mental chess games.
这些对话就像拳击比赛，或者，我不知道，就像心理棋局。
From WBZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
OK, so before we get to these calls, because this comes up in the calls, you need to know a little bit about how Mohamedou ended up in Guantanamo in the first place.
好的，所以在我们开始这些电话之前，因为这会出现在电话中，所以您首先需要了解一些关于穆罕默德杜如何最终进入关塔那摩的事情。
Well, from the point of view of the US government, there were a lot of things that made Mohamedou suspicious.
那么，从美国政府的角度来看，有很多事情让穆罕默德产生了怀疑。
Again, this is journalist-filmmaker, John Goetz.
这位是记者兼电影制作人约翰·戈茨。
John Goetz Number one, he had gone to Afghanistan in the early 1990s and was actually a part of Al-Qaeda at that phase, and part of, kind of, the Osama bin Laden wing of the mujahideen.
约翰·戈茨（John Goetz） 第一，他在 20 世纪 90 年代初去了阿富汗，实际上是那个阶段基地组织的一部分，也是圣战者奥萨马·本·拉登派的一部分。
You may remember, back in the 1980s, the US had supported the mujahideen in their fight against the Soviets in Afghanistan.
你可能还记得，早在 20 世纪 80 年代，美国就曾支持圣战者在阿富汗对抗苏联。
Mohamedou says that after he left Afghanistan in the early '90s, he broke with Al-Qaeda.
穆罕默德杜说，他在 90 年代初离开阿富汗后，就与基地组织决裂了。
But his cousin became one of the top leaders of Al-Qaeda.
但他的表弟成为了基地组织的最高领导人之一。
He even called-- his cousin even called Mohamedou while he was in Germany from Osama bin Laden's satellite phone.
他甚至打电话给穆罕默德·本·拉登，他的表弟甚至在德国时用奥萨马·本·拉登的卫星电话给他打了电话。
Mohamedou also had contact with a bunch of people who ended up committing terrorist acts.
穆罕默德还与一群最终实施恐怖活动的人有过接触。
Like, he was close friends with a man who later was connected to a synagogue bombing in Tunisia.
比如，他和一个后来与突尼斯犹太教堂爆炸事件有关的人是亲密的朋友。
He attended a mosque in Canada, where a major terrorist plot was planned.
他参观了加拿大的一座清真寺，那里正在策划一场重大的恐怖阴谋。
He had at least one of the organizers of the 9/11 attacks stay his apartment in Duisburg in October, 1999.
1999 年 10 月，他让至少一名 9/11 袭击的组织者住在他位于杜伊斯堡的公寓里。
Some say that even two of the hijackers were there with him that evening, and he kind of encouraged them to go to Afghanistan.
有人说，那天晚上甚至有两名劫机者和他在一起，他鼓励他们去阿富汗。
But the fact that he had contact with all of these different people-- all of these things together, you know, it's kind of like, is there an explanation that's not ominous about Mohamedou?
但事实上，他与所有这些不同的人都有过接触——所有这些事情加在一起，你知道，这有点像，有没有一种解释对穆罕默德来说不是不祥的呢？
That was kind of like the position of the US government at the time.
这有点像美国政府当时的立场。
Well, no, that sounds pretty bad.
嗯，不，这听起来很糟糕。
What does Mohamedou say about that?
穆罕默德对此有何评论？
Well, Mohamedou says-- in each and every case, he gives a simple explanation as for why it happened.
穆罕默德说，在每一个案例中，他都给出了一个简单的解释来解释为什么会发生这种情况。
I mean, he explains, for example, that his cousin called because he needed Mohamedou to transfer some money to a family member in Mauritania.
我的意思是，他解释说，例如，他的堂兄打电话来是因为他需要穆罕默德杜向毛里塔尼亚的一位家人转一些钱。
He says, regarding the mosque in Canada that was involved in planning this terrorist attack, you know, that there were thousands of people that went to the mosque and he never met the guy who was involved who planned the attack.
他说，关于参与策划这次恐怖袭击的加拿大清真寺，你知道，有成千上万的人去了清真寺，但他从未见过参与策划这次袭击的人。
OK, and so with that, I think that everybody has caught up with the basic facts about Mohamedou, and we are ready to turn to Act 1.
好的，我认为每个人都已经了解了有关穆罕默德杜的基本事实，我们准备好转向第一幕。
Act 1, Sydney.
第一幕，悉尼。
So the reporter for the rest of the hour is going to be Bastian Berbner, who's been on our show before.
因此，剩下的一个小时的记者将是巴斯蒂安·贝尔纳（Bastian Berbner），他以前参加过我们的节目。
He's actually been working with John Goetz for over a year.
事实上，他已经与约翰·戈茨 (John Goetz) 合作一年多了。
As John made his film, Bastian made a podcast series from the story, for German Public Radio.
当约翰拍摄电影时，巴斯蒂安根据这个故事为德国公共广播电台制作了一个播客系列。
Here's Bastian.
这是巴斯蒂安。
After years of searching for Mohamedou's captors, John eventually got a tip about a woman who the person said probably knows more about Mohamedou's case than anyone else.
经过多年寻找绑架穆罕默德杜的人，约翰最终得到了有关一名女子的线索，该人士称该女子可能比其他人更了解穆罕默德杜的案件。
That woman's name was Sydney.
那个女人的名字叫西德尼。
We are not using her last name here.
我们在这里不使用她的姓氏。
Back in 2003, she was in military intelligence, working as an analyst on Mohamedou's case.
早在 2003 年，她就职于军事情报部门，担任穆罕默德案件的分析师。
John found her in a Texas suburb.
约翰在德克萨斯州郊区找到了她。
She's a teacher now, and she agreed to talk.
她现在是一名老师，她同意谈话。
Mohamedou Ould Slahi was the case of her life.
穆罕默德·乌尔德·斯拉希就是她一生的例子。
In Guantanamo, she spent weeks questioning him, day in, day out, which is rare for someone who isn't an interrogator.
在关塔那摩，她花了数周的时间日复一日地审问他，这对于不是审讯者的人来说是罕见的。
I told Slahi-- I was like, I always call him my Gitmo boyfriend, because I know more about him than anybody else who was in my life at that time.
我告诉斯拉希——我总是称他为关塔那摩监狱的男朋友，因为我比当时生活中的任何人都更了解他。
And yeah, so he was in-- on the cover of the Gitmo magazine, or paper, and he wrote on it, "to my girlfriend, never forget our times together."
是的，他出现在关塔那摩监狱杂志或报纸的封面上，他在上面写道：“致我的女朋友，永远不要忘记我们在一起的时光。”
Sydney was a young soldier when 9/11 happened.
9/11 事件发生时，西德尼还是一名年轻的士兵。
From then on, she says her life only knew one purpose-- to catch Al-Qaeda terrorists.
她说，从那时起，她的人生只有一个目的——抓捕基地组织恐怖分子。
She was at work before anyone else and stayed after everyone had left.
她先于其他人上班，并在所有人都离开后留下来。
No partner, no vacations for 15 years.
没有伴侣，15年没有假期。
When I was in the thick of AQ every day, I had pictures of dead guys next to pictures of my family on my desk.
当我每天都沉浸在 AQ 的紧张状态时，我的桌子上家人的照片旁边都是死人的照片。
And people were like, how do you have that?
人们会说，你是怎么做到的？
Wait a minute.
等一下。
Tell me about that.
告诉我这件事。
What kind of pictures?
什么样的图片？
Oh, some of them were pretty gruesome.
哦，其中一些非常可怕。
I remember one was-- the dude's face literally was blown off.
我记得其中一个是——那家伙的脸简直被炸掉了。
Like, it's a reminder.
比如说，这是一个提醒。
Like, that dude would have killed me if given an opportunity, and I'm doing everything I can to help track these people down, so they don't get those opportunities to hurt me or my family.
就像，如果有机会，那个家伙就会杀了我，而我正在尽一切努力帮助追踪这些人，这样他们就没有机会伤害我或我的家人。
When John asked Sydney if she wanted to talk to Mohamedou, she was reluctant at first, but eventually, she said yes.
当约翰问西德妮是否想和穆罕默德谈话时，她一开始很不愿意，但最终她答应了。
She still believes he was a key Al-Qaeda terrorist.
她仍然相信他是基地组织的主要恐怖分子。
Not a fighter or a suicide bomber or anything of that sort, no. Him being super intelligent, charismatic, speaking five languages, she thinks his job was more in the background, recruiting terrorists for Al-Qaeda, including the 9/11 hijackers.
不是战士或自杀式炸弹袭击者或类似的东西，不是。他非常聪明、有魅力，会说五种语言，她认为他的工作更多的是在幕后，为基地组织招募恐怖分子，包括 9/11 劫机者。
He at least served 14 years in jail.
他至少在监狱服刑14年。
That's something.
那是一件事。
Was it enough?
够了吗？
Absolutely not.
绝对不是。
Not at all.
一点也不。
What would have been enough?
什么就足够了？
Sydney Personally, death.
悉尼 就我个人而言，死亡。
For a while, I thought, she is so convinced of his guilt, she must have something to back this up.
有一阵子，我想，她如此确信他有罪，她一定有什么东西可以支持这一点。
But I talked to her for hours about it.
但我和她谈了几个小时。
Days.
天。
And the stuff she kept bringing up, it either didn't check out when I looked into it.
她不断提出的那些事情，当我调查时也没有得到证实。
Or the judge had seen it, too, and still ordered Mohamedou's release.
或者法官也看到了，但仍然下令释放穆罕默德。
Sydney worked on Mohamedou's case for years.
西德尼多年来一直致力于处理穆罕默德的案件。
She traveled to Mauritania, interviewed his ex-wife.
她前往毛里塔尼亚，采访了他的前妻。
She says, in Guantanamo, she pushed to have him isolated from the other detainees, but she never got a confession out of him.
她说，在关塔那摩，她努力将他与其他被拘留者隔离，但她从未得到他的供述。
Now, 17 years later, she thought, he was a free man.
现在，17 年过去了，她想，他是一个自由人了。
Maybe she could finally get him to admit something.
也许她终于可以让他承认一些事情了。
While the film crew set up in her house, she started writing down the list of topics she wanted to cover with him, like 9/11.
当摄制组在她家里安顿下来时，她开始写下她想和他一起讨论的话题清单，比如 9/11。
She was sure he knew about the attacks beforehand.
她确信他事先就知道袭击事件。
Then his cousin, the one who called him from bin Laden's phone, and Canada.
然后是他的表弟，也就是用本·拉登的电话给他打电话的人，还有加拿大。
In late 1999, Mohamedou moved there for two months.
1999年底，穆罕默德搬到那里两个月。
Sydney was always convinced that he was the head of an Al-Qaeda cell there.
西德尼始终坚信他是当地基地组织的头目。
[CHUCKLES] He gets so upset when you talk about Canada, and that's definitely one of the topics I'd really want to bring up with him.
[咯咯笑]当你谈论加拿大时，他会感到非常沮丧，这绝对是我真正想和他提起的话题之一。
Meanwhile, John and I were with Mohamedou in Mauritania.
与此同时，约翰和我与穆罕默德一起在毛里塔尼亚。
John asked him what he remembered about Sydney.
约翰问他关于悉尼的记忆。
She was dying, thirsty, dying to find something.
她快要死了，口渴了，渴望找到一些东西。
Because that was a very big thing in Guantanamo Bay.
因为那是关塔那摩湾的一件大事。
If you break up a "terrorist," quote unquote.
如果你要打散一个“恐怖分子”，请取消引用。
And she was like, oh my god, when is this going to happen?
她说，天啊，这什么时候会发生？
When am I going to get my break?
我什么时候才能休息？
I was her break.
我是她的突破口。
And not having that break in me, it was like-- I would imagine it would have been very hard for her.
如果我没有那样的突破，我想这对她来说会非常困难。
But today, maybe I will give her the break.
但今天，也许我会让她休息一下。
Why are you doing this?
你为什么要这样做？
Mohamedou Ould Slahi I just like-- you know, some people like to watch horror movies because the horror is not-- they are not part of it.
Mohamedou Ould Slahi 我只是喜欢——你知道，有些人喜欢看恐怖电影，因为恐怖不是——他们不是恐怖电影的一部分。
This is the first time I get to watch a horror movie and I'm not a part of it.
这是我第一次看恐怖电影，但我并没有参与其中。
I'm removed from her.
我已经和她疏远了
She has no power over me.
她对我没有权力。
I just want to face her where she has no power over me.
我只想面对她，而她对我没有权力。
Absolutely no power.
完全没有力量。
She can't do nothing to me.
她不能对我做什么。
That, to me, is very important.
这对我来说非常重要。
OK, we're ready.
好的，我们准备好了。
Are you ready, Mohamedou?
穆罕默德，你准备好了吗？
I don't know.
我不知道。
It depends.
这取决于。
Sydney Oh, you don't know?
悉尼哦，你不知道吗？
What does it depend on?
它取决于什么？
[LAUGHS] First, I want to say, to tell you that I'm so happy to see you again, and that I'm truly, truly sorry that Trump lost the elections.
[笑]首先，我想说，告诉你们，我很高兴再次见到你们，并且我对特朗普输掉选举感到非常非常抱歉。
[LAUGHS] You would have voted for Trump?
[笑]你会投票给特朗普吗？
Oh, Mohamedou!
哦，穆罕默德！
Me?
我？
I don't know.
我不知道。
I don't have the right to vote.
我没有投票权。
No, would you have?
不，你愿意吗？
If you could have, would you have voted for that man?
如果可以的话，你会投票给那个人吗？
[SYDNEY LAUGHS] I don't like to be a part of it.
[悉尼笑]我不喜欢成为其中的一部分。
It was a dra-- oh, I think you lie on that part.
那是一个德拉——哦，我想你在那部分撒了谎。
You are always a part of drama, Mohamedou.
你永远是戏剧的一部分，穆罕默德。
I'm happy to see you, too.
我也很高兴见到你。
I remember, a few minutes into the call, John and I, we looked at each other like, what the hell is going on?
我记得，通话几分钟后，约翰和我互相看着对方，到底发生了什么事？
It's almost like hostile flirting or something.
这几乎就像敌意的调情什么的。
Later, she told us, that's how you have to talk to Mohamedou to get anything out of him.
后来，她告诉我们，这就是你必须与穆罕默德交谈才能从他那里得到任何东西的方式。
The first thing Sydney brings up is his book.
悉尼首先提到的是他的书。
In the original draft, she saw, Mohamedou only briefly refers to her, and only by the nickname the guards gave her-- TOF.
她看到，在最初的草稿中，穆罕默德只是简单地提到了她，而且只是看守们给她起的绰号——TOF。
It stands for Tons Of Fun.
它代表“无尽的乐趣”。
Sydney says they called her that because she had a big chest.
悉尼说，他们这样称呼她是因为她有一个大胸部。
And I think you had me in there as TOF.
我认为你让我作为 TOF 在那里。
Is that right?
是这样吗？
What did that stand for-- Mohamedou Ould Slahi Why did you send--
那代表什么——Mohamedou Ould Slahi 你为什么发送——
--Mohamedou?
——穆罕默德？
Mohamedou Ould Slahi I don't know.
穆罕默德·乌尔德·斯拉希 我不知道。
This is one of the guards.
这是其中一名守卫。
You can't do that.
你不能那样做。
Come on.
快点。
Let's hear it, because I heard what it was for, but I want you to tell me.
让我们听听吧，因为我听说了它的用途，但我想让你告诉我。
[LAUGHS] Mohamedou Ould Slahi (LAUGHING) I don't want to be kidnapped again.
[笑] Mohamedou Ould Slahi（笑）我不想再次被绑架。
Hey, I am not that powerful.
嘿嘿，我没那么厉害。
Mohamedou Ould Slahi No, but-- no, no, no, but I will tell you something.
Mohamedou Ould Slahi 不，但是——不，不，不，但是我会告诉你一些事情。
Are you scared to tell me what that means?
你害怕告诉我这意味着什么吗？
Come on.
快点。
You're not going to offend me.
你不会冒犯我的。
I already know what it means.
我已经知道这意味着什么了。
Sydney slips into the conversation one of the topics she wanted to discuss-- Mohamedou's cousin, Abu Hafs, the high-ranking Al-Qaeda guy.
西德尼插入了她想讨论的话题之一——穆罕默德杜的表弟阿布·哈夫斯，基地组织的高级人物。
Today, Abu Hafs lives down the road from Mohamedou, in a mansion.
如今，阿布·哈夫斯住在穆罕默德杜附近的一栋豪宅里。
He was never captured.
他从未被俘虏。
When I was in Mauritania, I visited him.
当我在毛里塔尼亚时，我拜访了他。
And it was kind of mind-boggling to see that this key Al-Qaeda guy is not only free, but he's actually very well respected in Mauritania, which is a partner of the United States.
令人难以置信的是，这个基地组织的关键人物不仅获得了自由，而且实际上在毛里塔尼亚（美国的合作伙伴）非常受尊重。
Because Abu Hafs, as smart in his own right, is not as smart as you.
因为阿布·哈夫斯本身就很聪明，但他并不像你那么聪明。
Have you talked to him?
你和他谈过吗？
But you are a very smart person.
但你是一个非常聪明的人。
How could you make a judgment?
你怎么能做出判断呢？
You never met him.
你从未见过他。
You never talked to him.
你从来没有和他说过话。
I'm a little bit--
我有点——
Of course.
当然。
Mohamedou Ould Slahi You said--
穆罕默德·乌尔德·斯拉希 你说——
Of course.
当然。
Mohamedou Ould Slahi You said he's not as smart as me.
Mohamedou Ould Slahi 你说他没有我聪明。
Yeah.
是的。
Mohamedou Ould Slahi So how could you make that judgment without being with him, interrogating him, too?
穆罕默德·乌尔德·斯拉希 那么，如果不和他在一起，也不审问他，你怎么能做出这样的判断呢？
I never interrogated you.
我从来没有审问过你。
We always talked.
我们总是说话。
OK, you brought me tea, you brought me biscuit.
好吧，你给我带来了茶，你给我带来了饼干。
We dated for a couple of times.
我们约会过几次。
[SYDNEY LAUGHS] Let's put it that way.
[悉尼笑] 这么说吧。
So however, I will challenge that idea and tell you--
然而，我会挑战这个想法并告诉你——
OK.
好的。
Mohamedou Ould Slahi I will say he's smarter than me.
Mohamedou Ould Slahi 我会说他比我聪明。
Because he had $25 million bounty on his head.
因为他的人头悬赏金额高达2500万美元。
I had $0 bounty on my head.
我的头上有 0 美元的赏金。
He evaded American capture until American craziness evaporated and they say he's not part of 9/11.
他逃避了美国的抓捕，直到美国的疯狂消失，他们说他不是 9/11 的一部分。
And he snuck himself-- smuggled himself through continents, and he's back in Mauritania, living his life very well with his kid, with his family, without fear, without nothing.
他偷偷地走遍了各大洲，然后他回到了毛里塔尼亚，和他的孩子、他的家人过着幸福的生活，没有恐惧，什么也没有。
I would say, compared to some person who was kidnapped in a mafia-like operation, taken to Jordan, not to the United States, from Jordan to Afghanistan, from Gaza to Guantanamo Bay.
我想说的是，与一些在类似黑手党的行动中被绑架的人相比，被带到约旦，而不是美国，从约旦到阿富汗，从加沙到关塔那摩湾。
I would say, any given day, person number one wins the smart card, any given day.
我想说，任何一天，第一个人都会赢得智能卡。
So that's my challenge.
这就是我的挑战。
[BOTH LAUGH] Sydney OK, well, I will say this.
[两人都笑] 悉尼 好吧，我会这么说。
OK.
好的。
Sydney That you, your purpose in Al-Qaeda was totally different than Abu Hafs.
西德尼 你在基地组织的目的与阿布·哈夫斯完全不同。
What do you call him, by the way?
顺便问一下，你怎么称呼他？
Thank you, ma'am, bin Laden-- Madam bin Laden.
谢谢你，本拉登女士——本拉登女士。
I did not know that.
我不知道。
So his purpose, totally different than your purpose, for Al-Qaeda.
所以他对基地组织的目的与你的目的完全不同。
Thank you for telling me about my purpose.
谢谢你告诉我我的目的。
Oh, you know this.
哦，你知道这一点。
Mohamedou Ould Slahi I'm so--
穆罕默德·乌尔德·斯拉希 我是如此——
You know this, Mohamedou.
你知道这一点，穆罕默德。
Mohamedou Ould Slahi I'm so, so eager to hear about this.
Mohamedou Ould Slahi 我非常非常渴望听到这个消息。
Give me the update.
给我更新。
Give the update and give my next mission, too, while you're at it.
当你在做的时候，提供最新情况并提供我的下一个任务。
Bastian Berbner About an hour into the call, Sydney finally brings up Canada, the things she says Mohamedou never wanted to talk about.
巴斯蒂安·伯布纳 (Bastian Berbner) 通话大约一个小时后，悉尼终于谈到了加拿大，她说穆罕默德杜从来不想谈论这些事情。
She's convinced that he was involved in the Millennium plot, a plan to blow up Los Angeles airport in late 1999.
她确信他参与了千禧年阴谋，即 1999 年底炸毁洛杉矶机场的计划。
It failed when an Algerian man was arrested crossing the border from Canada with a car full of explosives.
当一名阿尔及利亚男子驾驶一辆装满爆炸物的汽车从加拿大穿越边境时被捕时，这次行动失败了。
Before that, he had attended the same mosque in Montreal as Muhamedou, which is why the Canadian government started looking into Mohamedou.
在此之前，他与穆罕默德曾去过蒙特利尔的同一座清真寺，这就是加拿大政府开始调查穆罕默德的原因。
I always-- OK, so this is going way, way back, way, way back.
我总是——好吧，所以这已经是很久以前的事了。
And now, Canada, your favorite place on Earth, Canada.
现在，加拿大，地球上你最喜欢的地方，加拿大。
I know.
我知道。
Who would have thought this young Mauritanian kid would want to go and live in Canada?
谁会想到这个年轻的毛里塔尼亚孩子会想去加拿大生活？
After living in Germany.
旅居德国后。
Yes.
是的。
Sydney Which-- Germany is fantastic.
悉尼 德国非常棒。
I love Germany.
我爱德国。
[LAUGHS] I know you hated the Canadians.
[笑]我知道你讨厌加拿大人。
Not the-- I love the Canadians.
不是——我爱加拿大人。
I hate what the government did to me.
我讨厌政府对我所做的一切。
Yeah, I remember.
是的，我记得。
I remember when you said--
我记得你当时说——
Sucking up to American government.
巴结美国政府。
I hate that.
我讨厌那样。
They were always up my ass.
他们总是让我烦恼。
This is what you did.
这就是你所做的。
They were always up my ass.
他们总是让我烦恼。
That's what you would say.
这就是你会说的。
Yes, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
Sydney Why do you think they were always up your ass?
西德尼 你觉得他们为什么总是惹你生气？
I tell you why, because American told them, this is a very bad guy.
我告诉你为什么，因为美国人告诉他们，这是一个非常坏的人。
He's a, quote unquote, "terrorist," which is a fucking political term, you know.
他是一个，毫不夸张地说，“恐怖分子”，这是一个该死的政治术语，你知道。
What, terrorist?
什么，恐怖分子？
Mohamedou Ould Slahi Yes.
穆罕默德·乌尔德·斯拉希 是的。
You cannot, for instance-- in the United States, you cannot say KKK is a terrorist group, because it would not fly.
例如，在美国，你不能说三K党是恐怖组织，因为它不会飞。
They both say this is how their conversations went in Guantanamo.
他们都说这就是他们在关塔那摩的谈话方式。
She would bring up topics she wanted answers on.
她会提出她想要答案的话题。
He would swat her away.
他会把她赶走。
And this here is a good example.
这是一个很好的例子。
She asks about Canada, and within seconds, he talks about the KKK and American bigotry.
她询问了加拿大的情况，几秒钟之内，他就谈到了三K党和美国的偏执。
Eventually, Sydney steers the conversation back to Canada, and to his cousin, Abu Hafs, whose real name, by the way, is Mahfouz.
最终，西德尼将话题引回到加拿大，并转向他的表弟阿布·哈夫斯，顺便说一句，他的真名是马哈福兹。
We're talking about, why was Canada up your ass.
我们正在谈论，为什么加拿大对你如此恼火。
Because when I came to Canada, so I had a phone call with my cousin.
因为我来加拿大的时候，所以我和我表弟通了电话。
He called me.
他打电话给我。
Yeah, that-- do you ever just go, man, fuck you, Mahfouz, look what you did to my life?
是的，那个——你有没有想过，伙计，操你，马哈福兹，看看你对我的生活做了什么？
Do you ever say that?
你有这么说过吗？
Did you ever once think that?
你曾经有过这样的想法吗？
Every day.
每天。
Bastian Berbner A few hours before their call, a trailer for the movie about Muhamedou had been released.
巴斯蒂安·贝尔布纳 (Bastian Berbner) 在他们通话前几个小时，发布了有关穆罕默德杜的电影的预告片。
It's called The Mauritanian.
它的名字叫《毛里塔尼亚人》。
Muhamedou insisted on showing it to Sydney.
穆罕默德坚持要把它拿给悉尼看。
[MOHAMEDOU LAUGHS] For someone who said they don't want to be in a lot of drama, that's a lot of drama.
[穆罕默德笑] 对于那些说自己不想出演太多戏剧的人来说，这就是太多戏剧了。
You know what bothers me about that, Mohamedou?
你知道是什么让我烦恼吗，穆罕默德？
And this is one of those things.
这就是其中之一。
These are one of those, like, those unresolved issues that I wanted to talk to you about.
这些是我想和你们讨论的那些未解决的问题之一。
Yeah, you will get your chance, you know.
是的，你会得到机会的，你知道。
But today, I'm running the show.
但今天，我来主持这出戏。
OK.
好的。
You've always run the show, just so you're aware.
你总是在掌控一切，只是为了让你知道。
Take it as you will.
随你便吧。
Mohamedou Ould Slahi How did you mean it?
穆罕默德·乌尔德·斯拉希 你这话是什么意思？
I took-- you've always had your way about you, Mohamedou.
我认为——你总是有你自己的方式，穆罕默德。
And your role was always the one of recruiter, and you've done that successfully your entire life.
你的角色始终是招聘人员，你一生都成功地做到了这一点。
So that's what I mean.
这就是我的意思。
Thank you so much.
太感谢了。
So I'm very sorry that you believe that I'm an evil man.
所以我很抱歉你相信我是一个邪恶的人。
But I can live with that, because you have no power over me.
但我可以忍受这一点，因为你对我没有权力。
No, 'cause you won.
不，因为你赢了。
Mohamedou Ould Slahi Today, I'm going to go back--
穆罕默德·乌尔德·斯拉希 今天，我要回去——
Yeah, I agree with that.
是的，我同意这一点。
Mohamedou Ould Slahi I go back to my home, I drink tea, I will sleep, I will watch movies.
Mohamedou Ould Slahi 我回到家，我喝茶，我会睡觉，我会看电影。
I will not go back to the cell.
我不会再回到牢房。
And you will not try to report, Mohamedou Ould Slahi didn't comment on him recruiting.
你不会试图报道，穆罕默德·乌尔德·斯拉希没有对他的招募发表评论。
God knows that I am not a recruiter for Al-Qaeda or any organization.
天知道我不是基地组织或任何组织的招募人员。
That's between me and Allah and the people who believe me, and there is no fucking shred of evidence that the US government could represent at the court of law that I was.
这是我和阿拉以及相信我的人们之间的事，没有任何他妈的证据表明美国政府可以在法庭上代表我。
And that Judge Robertson, he's not my brother.
那个罗伯逊法官，他不是我的兄弟。
He's not a Muslim.
他不是穆斯林。
He's not an Arab.
他不是阿拉伯人。
He's not an African.
他不是非洲人。
He's a fucking American conservative.
他他妈的是个美国保守派。
Judge Robertson was the person who ruled in Mohamedou's habeas case.
罗伯逊法官是穆罕默德杜人身保护案的裁决者。
I'm not sure, by the way, if he saw himself as a conservative.
顺便说一句，我不确定他是否认为自己是保守派。
He looked at the evidence the US government produced against Mohamedou and said, that's not enough to hold him.
他查看了美国政府提供的针对穆罕默德的证据，并表示，这不足以逮捕他。
It actually took another six years for him to get released, because the Obama administration appealed the judge's ruling.
由于奥巴马政府对法官的裁决提出上诉，他实际上又过了六年才被释放。
He got out in 2016.
他于2016年出狱。
So OK-- Mohamedou Ould Slahi But I must say that--
好吧——Mohamedou Ould Slahi 但我必须说——
I must have to say that I have to go in very, very-- in five minutes.
我必须说我必须在非常非常——五分钟内进去。
What?
什么？
Mohamedou Ould Slahi Yes.
穆罕默德·乌尔德·斯拉希 是的。
I cannot stay longer, because--
我不能停留更久，因为——
Can you just let her-- she has a few more points.
你能不能让她——她还有几点。
I know, I know, but I don't have time to finish them.
我知道，我知道，但我没有时间完成它们。
But you could organize another call.
但你可以再组织一次电话。
But I'm not staying.
但我不会留下来。
So I do want-- I respect your time 100%, and I understand that you want to go home, and it's been a long day.
所以我确实想——我百分百尊重你的时间，我理解你想回家，这是漫长的一天。
But I really think that you and I both would like to get to the end of something.
但我真的认为你和我都想结束某件事。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
I welcome you absolutely, and I have no secret.
我绝对欢迎你，我没有什么秘密。
It's so good to catch up with you.
能赶上你真是太好了。
So good.
超好的。
I'm so happy.
我太高兴了。
You, too, Mohamedou.
你也是，穆罕默德。
Mohamedou Ould Slahi And thank you so much for agreeing to talk to me.
Mohamedou Ould Slahi 非常感谢您同意与我交谈。
This is only the first.
这只是第一个。
Thank you, too.
也谢谢你。
Bye.
再见。
Bye.
再见。
Bastian Berbner Immediately after the call, Sydney turns to one of the film's producers.
巴斯蒂安·伯布纳 (Bastian Berbner) 接到电话后，西德尼立即向影片的制片人之一寻求帮助。
You might not have seen what I saw.
你可能没有看到我所看到的。
He left on purpose.
他是故意离开的。
Purpose, he ended that, because he knows what I'm going to ask him-- the whole Canada thing.
他结束了这句话，因为他知道我要问他什么——整个加拿大的事情。
And you saw, he got exactly upset, and I couldn't even go into it.
你看，他非常沮丧，而我什至无法谈论它。
That's how he behaves.
这就是他的行为方式。
For Sydney, it was the same as it had always been.
对于悉尼来说，情况一如既往。
But for Mohamedou, this round felt very different.
但对于穆罕默德杜来说，这一轮感觉非常不同。
Right after the call, we were in the backseat of a car, driving to the hotel where I was staying in Mauritania.
接到电话后，我们就坐在汽车的后座上，开车前往我在毛里塔尼亚下榻的酒店。
I'd been interviewing him for days at that point and had never seen him so giddy.
那时我已经采访他好几天了，从来没有见过他如此头晕。
She is stuck.
她被困住了。
She's so frustrated because she couldn't interrogate me.
她很沮丧，因为她无法审问我。
And she wants to interrogate me now, to have closure.
她现在想审问我，以了结。
I'm not giving her that closure.
我不会给她这样的结局。
She's dying to have answers.
她非常想得到答案。
Mohamedou Ould Slahi She's dying to interrogate me, and she was kicked out.
Mohamedou Ould Slahi 她非常想审问我，结果她被赶了出去。
She was sent away.
她被送走了。
I am-- she was there not to check on my health.
我——她在那里不是为了检查我的健康状况。
She was there to put me behind bars for the rest of my life.
她是为了让我在监狱里度过我的余生。
I am not giving her the satisfaction.
我没有给她满足。
You know, I'm letting her die with frustration.
你知道，我让她沮丧地死去。
That's my plan.
这就是我的计划。
I mean, my sweet revenge, intellectual revenge.
我的意思是，我甜蜜的复仇，智力上的复仇。
That was my plan.
这就是我的计划。
Bastian Berbner.
巴斯蒂安·贝尔布纳.
Coming up, Mohamedou talks to the interrogator who literally haunts his nightmares the most.
接下来，穆罕默德杜与审讯者交谈，后者确实是他噩梦中最困扰的人。
That's in a minute with Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.
稍后我们的节目将继续播出，芝加哥公共广播电台即将播出。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
If you're just tuning in, today on our program, we're listening to these very unusual conversations between Mohamedou Ould Slahi, a former Guantanamo detainee, and three of the Americans who were his captors at Guantanamo.
如果您今天正在收看我们的节目，我们会听到前关塔那摩被拘留者穆罕默德·乌尔德·斯拉希 (Mohamedou Ould Slahi) 和关塔那摩关押他的三名美国人之间非常不寻常的对话。
In Mohamedou Ould Slahi's book, one of the most chilling sections is about an interrogator who we only knew as Mr. X.
在穆罕默德·乌尔德·斯拉希 (Mohamedou Ould Slahi) 的书中，最令人毛骨悚然的部分之一是关于一位审讯者，我们只知道他是 X 先生。
He shows up in the next part of our show.
他出现在我们节目的下一部分。
Act 2, Mr. X.
第二幕，X先生
Our reporter for this hour is Bastian Berbner.
我们这一小时的记者是巴斯蒂安·贝尔纳。
Here he is.
他在这里。
During the summer of 2003, Mohamedou was interrogated in three shifts by three interrogators, up to 18 hours a day.
2003年夏天，穆罕默德·穆罕默德受到三名审讯员分三班的审讯，每天长达18小时。
Mr. X was the guy who came at night.
X先生是晚上来的那个人。
Do you remember when you saw Mr. X for the last time?
你还记得最后一次见到X先生是什么时候吗？
I never saw Mr. X, so there is no seeing him the last time or the first time.
我从来没有见过X先生，所以没有最后一次见到他，也没有第一次见到他。
What do you mean?
你是什么意思？
Mohamedou Ould Slahi Like, he was always in his overall, and he had this mask that completely covered his face.
穆罕默德·乌尔德·斯拉希 (Mohamedou Ould Slahi) 就像他一样，总是穿着工作服，戴着面具完全遮住脸。
Completely?
完全地？
Mohamedou Ould Slahi Yeah, completely covered his face.
Mohamedou Ould Slahi 是的，完全遮住了他的脸。
You couldn't see anything.
你什么也看不见。
Even his eyes?
甚至他的眼睛？
Mohamedou Ould Slahi Everything.
穆罕默德·乌尔德·斯拉希一切。
Everything.
一切。
It's like a bag he would put on his head.
就像一个袋子，他会戴在头上。
Or I don't know whether he could see even through it.
或者我不知道他是否能看透。
But I could see the shape of his body, you know, and--
但我可以看到他身体的形状，你知道，而且——
Can you describe it?
你能描述一下吗？
Mohamedou Ould Slahi Yeah, he was tall, skinny, muscular.
Mohamedou Ould Slahi 是的，他又高又瘦，肌肉发达。
Mr. X wore blue overalls, like a car mechanic.
X先生穿着蓝色工作服，就像一名汽车修理工。
Black boots, black gloves, black ski mask, sunglasses.
黑色靴子，黑色手套，黑色滑雪面罩，太阳镜。
When he talked to Mohamedou, he called him by his prisoner number, 760.
当他与 Mohamedou 交谈时，他拨打了他的囚犯号码 760。
Night after night, he tried to break Mohamedou.
一夜又一夜，他试图摧毁穆罕默德。
He blasted heavy metal music and exposed him to strobe lights.
他播放重金属音乐，并让他暴露在闪光灯下。
He cranked up the AC until Mohamedou started shivering.
他把空调开到最大，直到穆罕默德开始发抖。
He turned up the heat until he sweat through his clothes.
他把暖气开大，直到汗水浸透了衣服。
He made him stand with his wrists chained to a bolt on the floor, forcing him into a stooped position for hours, which was excruciating for Mohamedou.
他让他站着，手腕被锁在地板上的螺栓上，迫使他弯腰姿势长达数小时，这对穆罕默德来说是极其痛苦的。
It was all part of the interrogation plan crafted specifically to break Mohamedou.
这都是专门为击垮穆罕默德而制定的审讯计划的一部分。
Donald Rumsfeld signed off on it.
唐纳德·拉姆斯菲尔德签署了该协议。
The worst incident Mohamedou describes was a day in late August, 2003, when a few men dragged him out of the interrogation room, put blackout goggles on his eyes, earmuffs over his ears, and threw him into a Humvee.
穆罕默德描述的最严重的事件是 2003 年 8 月下旬的一天，当时几个人把他拖出审讯室，给他的眼睛戴上遮光护目镜，用耳罩盖住耳朵，然后把他扔进一辆悍马车。
They drove him around and beat him.
他们把他带到周围并殴打他。
He was bleeding from his head.
他的头在流血。
They put him on a boat for a few hours.
他们把他放在船上几个小时。
At one point, he heard people speaking in Arabic, as if he was going to be handed over to another country.
有一次，他听到人们用阿拉伯语说话，就好像他要被移交给另一个国家一样。
What they had actually done was drive the boat around the Guantanamo Bay all day.
他们实际上所做的就是开着船绕着关塔那摩湾一整天。
At the end, they put him in a cell built to maximize his isolation.
最后，他们把他关进了一个牢房，以最大限度地隔离他。
No daylight, little sound, no objects of any sort.
没有日光，声音很小，没有任何物体。
That's when Mohamedou broke.
就在那时，穆罕默德崩溃了。
He started to produce all this information, so much that they got him a computer to type it all out.
他开始制作所有这些信息，以至于他们给了他一台电脑来将其全部打印出来。
Mohamedou says, the stuff he told them, all of it was bullshit.
穆罕默德说，他告诉他们的东西全都是废话。
In fact, when the military prosecutor building a case against him learned that Mohamedou was tortured, he dropped the case.
事实上，当对他提起诉讼的军事检察官得知穆罕默德杜受到酷刑时，他放弃了此案。
Mohamedou remembers that it was Mr. X who beat him the worst during the mock rendition.
穆罕默德记得，在模拟表演中，X先生把他打得最惨。
For all those years since, he considered Mr. X his worst tormentor.
从那以后的这些年里，他一直认为 X 先生是他最糟糕的折磨者。
Mr. X is the one who, 18 years later, still wakes him with nightmares.
X先生是那个18年后仍然让他被噩梦惊醒的人。
John searched for Mr. X for years.
约翰多年来一直在寻找 X 先生。
And then, one day, he got a tip about a Facebook profile.
然后，有一天，他收到了有关 Facebook 个人资料的提示。
It had photos of a guy, extremely muscular, like a bodybuilder.
上面有一个男人的照片，肌肉非常发达，就像健美运动员一样。
John sent him messages.
约翰给他发了消息。
Two years later, he agreed to a meeting in a city hours away from where he lives.
两年后，他同意在距离他住处几小时路程的一个城市举行一次会议。
He looks a lot different now.
他现在看起来很不一样了。
He's still physically imposing, but the muscles are gone.
他的体格依然威严，但肌肉已经消失了。
He wears hipster glasses, and his beard is graying.
他戴着时髦的眼镜，胡子已经花白了。
And just to state the obvious, his name is not actually Mr. X.
显而易见的是，他的名字实际上并不是 X 先生。
He let us film him for the documentary, but we agreed not to use his real name for the story.
他让我们为他拍摄纪录片，但我们同意在故事中不使用他的真名。
So who was Mr. X?
那么X先生是谁呢？
Mr. X So I take it you're not literally saying, who is me, Mr. X.
X 先生 所以我认为你并不是在说，我是谁，X 先生。
Who is Mr. X?
X先生是谁？
Well, Mr. X was the thing that comes at night that you don't want to have to talk to.
嗯，X 先生是那种晚上出现的人，你不想与之交谈。
So the first thing I did was, well, I need to strip away my humanity.
所以我做的第一件事就是，我需要剥夺我的人性。
I need to not look like a normal human being.
我不需要看起来像一个正常人。
And I did that by covering up.
我通过掩盖来做到这一点。
What other elements did it have to create Mr. X?
创造X先生还需要哪些其他元素？
What other stuff did you need?
您还需要什么其他东西？
Well, from a theatrical perspective, there was-- he had to be completely in control, and that was by design, to strip control from Slahi.
嗯，从戏剧的角度来看，他必须完全控制，这是故意的，以剥夺斯拉希的控制权。
Slahi liked to be in control.
斯拉希喜欢掌控一切。
He'd try to take control of interrogations all the time.
他一直试图控制审讯。
So one minute, I could be very rational, and then the next minute, I could be completely enraged at the slightest comment, possibly even an innocuous comment.
所以前一分钟，我可能还很理性，但下一分钟，我可能会因最轻微的评论而完全愤怒，甚至可能是无伤大雅的评论。
It didn't even have to make sense.
它甚至没有意义。
Give me a general sense of what the dynamic between the two of you was.
让我大致了解一下你们两个之间的动态。
There was hardly any dynamic.
几乎没有任何动态。
He was the boss.
他是老板。
What do you mean?
你是什么意思？
Mohamedou Ould Slahi He was the boss.
穆罕默德·乌尔德·斯拉希 他是老板。
He was deciding when I sit down, when I stand up, when I have a chair, when I write, when I don't write, when I go back to my room.
他决定我什么时候坐下，什么时候站起来，什么时候有椅子，什么时候写，什么时候不写，什么时候回我的房间。
He was calling all the shots.
他在发号施令。
There was nothing.
什么也没有。
I was just an object in that relationship, and I just accepted my fate.
我只是这段关系中的一个客体，我只是接受了我的命运。
When John asked Mr. X if he wanted to speak to Mohamedou again, he said no. It's a complicated thing for him.
当约翰问 X 先生是否想再次与穆罕默德交谈时，他说不。这对他来说是一件复杂的事情。
He told John about it in the car.
他在车上把这件事告诉了约翰。
Yeah, why are you talking to us?
是啊，你为什么要和我们说话？
I mean, like, you know, because other people didn't want to talk to us, you know.
我的意思是，就像，你知道，因为其他人不想和我们说话，你知道。
Why are you talking to us?
你为什么跟我们说话？
Because it's the right thing to do.
因为这是正确的做法。
So one, I want to-- I don't want Mr. Slahi to have the sole voice of what occurred.
因此，我想——我不希望斯拉希先生对所发生的事情有唯一的发言权。
But more importantly, when I was there, and we were told at one point that we were at this historical-- this historical point in American history, you know, that we were heroes and we were on the side of righteousness.
但更重要的是，当我在那里时，我们一度被告知，我们正处于美国历史上的这一历史时刻，你知道，我们是英雄，我们站在正义一边。
But if you take the Slahi case alone, that's not what happened.
但如果你单独看斯拉希案，就会发现事实并非如此。
We're not on the right side of history on this one.
在这件事上我们不站在历史正确的一边。
So I want to put out for the record that we made mistakes, in my opinion.
因此，我想将我认为我们所犯的错误记录下来。
And people should never be treated that way.
人们不应该受到这样的对待。
And that's created a lot of problems for me psychologically.
这给我带来了很多心理问题。
And I told you before, I had, basically, a mental collapse over it.
我之前告诉过你，我基本上为此精神崩溃了。
Unlike Sydney, who was an analyst, Mr. X was an interrogator.
与身为分析师的西德尼不同，X 先生是一名审讯员。
Guantanamo was his first time doing that job.
关塔那摩是他第一次从事这项工作。
He was in his mid-30s and part of an elite military unit at Guantanamo, called the Special Projects Team.
他三十多岁，是关塔那摩精锐军事部队“特别项目小组”的成员。
There were eight people in all-- interrogators and analysts.
总共有八个人——审讯员和分析员。
They only worked the most high-value detainees, the most important of whom at the time was Mohamedou Ould Slahi.
他们只接待最有价值的被拘留者，其中当时最重要的是穆罕默德·乌尔德·斯拉希 (Mohamedou Ould Slahi)。
The military thought he might have information that could lead to bin Laden or prevent the next big attack.
军方认为他可能拥有可以找到本·拉登或阻止下一次大规模袭击的信息。
Mr. X's job was to make Mohamedou talk.
X 先生的工作是让穆罕默德开口说话。
And the idea was, you do that by being tough, really tough, using what they called enhanced techniques.
这个想法是，你要通过坚强，非常坚强，使用他们所谓的增强技术来做到这一点。
Enhanced techniques were harsh interrogation techniques that today are outlawed, that today are illegal.
强化技术是严酷的审讯技术，如今已被禁止、非法。
So, torture.
所以，折磨。
Mr. X Some would be considered absolutely-- would be considered torture by today's standards, absolutely.
X先生有些人绝对会被视为——按照今天的标准，绝对会被视为酷刑。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah, you got to understand, it's hard.
是的，你必须明白，这很难。
It's hard to-- it's a hard thing to say.
这很难——很难说。
Wait, what's hard?
等等，有什么难的？
Mr. X That I was involved in something that's torture, right?
X先生说我参与了一些酷刑，对吗？
That somebody was psychologically tortured.
有人遭受心理折磨。
Now, these things are still being debated today.
现在，这些事情至今仍在争论中。
And so did you torture?
那么你也受过折磨吗？
Mr. X Yeah.
X先生 是的。
I mean, it's torture.
我的意思是，这是一种折磨。
When Mr. X returned home after Guantanamo, he started to really think about what he had been part of.
当 X 先生从关塔那摩监狱返回家中时，他开始认真思考自己曾经经历过的事情。
He began drinking, retreated from his wife and kids.
他开始酗酒，远离妻子和孩子。
He had obsessive thoughts about mutilating himself.
他有自残的强迫念头。
A doctor diagnosed PTSD.
医生诊断出创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）。
For Mr. X, this was the start of a process of self-examination.
对于X先生来说，这是一个自我反省过程的开始。
There is hardly a day, he says, that he doesn't think about Mohamedou.
他说，他几乎没有一天不想念穆罕默德。
John tried to persuade Mr. X to talk to him.
约翰试图说服 X 先生与他交谈。
There was a film crew in Mauritania all set up in case he agreed.
毛里塔尼亚已经准备好了一个摄制组，以防万一他同意。
Mr. X was reluctant.
X先生很不情愿。
He still thinks Mohamedou was a terrorist.
他仍然认为穆罕默德是恐怖分子。
And having read his book and a few interviews that Mohamedou had done, he got the sense that he's on a mission to rebrand himself from suspected terrorist to magnanimous forgiver.
在阅读了穆罕默德杜的书和一些采访后，他感觉到自己的使命是将自己从可疑的恐怖分子重塑为宽宏的宽恕者。
I think if I were to engage him in a conversation about this, that in a way, I would be feeding into his brand that he's making himself now.
我想，如果我让他参与到这个话题的对话中，在某种程度上，我就会融入他现在正在打造的品牌。
And I don't feel comfortable with that.
我对此感到不舒服。
I really don't.
我真的不知道。
They're in his garage.
他们在他的车库里。
Mr. X says he needs to think about it.
X先生说他需要考虑一下。
He goes over to work with some pottery clay, something he's been doing as a kind of therapy.
他去制作一些陶土，这是他一直在做的一种治疗。
All right.
好的。
Bastian Berbner A few minutes later, John tries again.
几分钟后，巴斯蒂安·伯布纳 (Bastian Berbner) 再次尝试。
You're going to do some art and think about making the phone call?
你打算做一些艺术并考虑打电话吗？
[LAUGHS] Yeah, I just did the art.
[笑]是的，我只是做了艺术。
Can I have a second or what?
我可以再喝一次吗？
(CHUCKLING) Gosh, John.
（咯咯笑）天哪，约翰。
[JOHN CHUCKLES] John Goetz I'm just wondering.
[约翰·查克斯] 约翰·戈茨 我只是想知道。
Why not?
为什么不呢？
In for a penny, in for a pound, John, so--
一分钱一分货，约翰，所以——
OK.
好的。
All right.
好的。
Mr. X I'm trusting you on this.
X 先生，我在这一点上相信你。
Yeah.
是的。
Erin, could you come?
艾琳，你能来吗？
Wait a second.
等一下。
The producers quickly set up a call on a laptop and hand it to Mr. X.
制片人迅速在笔记本电脑上拨打电话并将其交给 X 先生。
Mohamedou is looking back at him from Mauritania, 17 years after they last met.
穆罕默德杜在毛里塔尼亚看着他，距离他们上次见面已有 17 年了。
He's seen photos of Mr. X before, but this is the first conversation they've had with each other where he isn't wearing a mask.
他以前看过X先生的照片，但这是他们第一次在X先生不戴口罩的情况下进行对话。
Mr. Slahi.
斯拉希先生。
How are you?
你好吗？
Mohamedou Ould Slahi How are you doing, sir?
穆罕默德·乌尔德·斯拉希 先生，您好吗？
Thank you for asking.
谢谢你的询问。
Mr. X Yes, sir.
X 先生 是的，先生。
Well, it's interesting.
嗯，这很有趣。
I was exceptionally reluctant to make this call, because I have a lot of mixed feelings about the era and the things that happened.
我非常不愿意打这个电话，因为我对那个时代和发生的事情有很多感触。
But I wanted to explain a couple of things to you.
但我想向你解释一些事情。
Mr. X starts talking and takes control of the conversation.
X 先生开始说话并控制了谈话。
So first and foremost-- Bastian Berbner He doesn't stop for four minutes.
所以首先也是最重要的——Bastian Berbner 他没有停下来四分钟。
And the thing he begins with isn't how the torture was wrong.
他一开始并不是说酷刑是错误的。
It's about him, Mr. X, and how Mohamedou described him in his book.
这是关于他，X 先生，以及穆罕默德杜在他的书中如何描述他的。
Mr. X says he wasn't the one who beat Mohamedou during the mock rendition, which, from my reporting, does seem to be true.
X 先生说他不是在模拟表演中殴打穆罕默德的人，从我的报道来看，这似乎是真的。
And I was shocked and just floored that you perceived that I was one of the people that entered the room and inflicted the physical abuse upon you.
我感到震惊和震惊，因为你发现我是进入房间并对你进行身体虐待的人之一。
I'm not sure why you perceived that.
我不确定你为什么这么认为。
It does bother me greatly that anyone, but especially you, would think that Mr. X would do that.
任何人，尤其是你，都会认为 X 先生会这么做，这确实让我很困扰。
That's not Mr. X, and that's not me and who I really am.
那不是 X 先生，那不是我，也不是真正的我。
You see?
你看？
So you were right to be surprised that Mr. X would have done something like that, because I didn't.
所以你对 X 先生会做这样的事情感到惊讶是对的，因为我没有。
I will tell you, another part that's difficult for me here, talking to you, is that I'm not convinced of your innocence.
我会告诉你，与你交谈对我来说另一个困难是我不相信你的清白。
And I still believe, based on the information that I had received, that you are an enemy of the United States.
根据我收到的信息，我仍然相信你是美国的敌人。
But I will say that no one deserved the treatment that you received, that we were misguided.
但我要说的是，没有人值得你所受到的待遇，我们被误导了。
And what we did was absolutely, without question, wrong.
毫无疑问，我们所做的绝对是错误的。
So no one who is in-- no one in a-- no democratic society, based on the values of America as I understand, should have been arrested the way you were, brought to Guantanamo, treated the way you were, and kept as long as you were.
因此，根据我所理解的美国价值观，任何人——任何一个——任何民主社会中的人都不应该被逮捕，带到关塔那摩，受到对待，并被关押多久。
That's all I can say.
我只能说这么多。
And I-- you know, I just-- I hope you have a good life, man.
我——你知道，我只是——我希望你生活愉快，伙计。
I guess.
我猜。
So first of all, I have no reason to believe that you're lying to me.
所以首先，我没有理由相信你在骗我。
I have no reason to believe that.
我没有理由相信这一点。
All I can say is that that's what I perceived, based on your voice I've been hearing for so many nights, so many late nights, with so much pain and suffering.
我只能说，这就是我所感知到的，基于我在这么多个夜晚、这么多个深夜、带着这么多的痛苦和磨难所听到的你的声音。
What happened happened, and I'm completely-- if you did it or you didn't do it, I'm just saying that I completely forgive you or anyone who inflicted pain.
发生的事情已经发生了，我完全——无论你做了还是没有做，我只是说我完全原谅你或任何造成痛苦的人。
And that's wholeheartedly, because I want to forgive myself, and I want to live in peace with me.
那是全心全意的，因为我想原谅自己，我想与自己和平相处。
And--
和 -
Yeah, I think everybody has to accept their actions and forgive themself.
是的，我认为每个人都必须接受自己的行为并原谅自己。
So I want to make sure it's also clear I'm not asking you for your forgiveness.
所以我想澄清一下，我并不是在请求你的原谅。
I have to forgive myself.
我必须原谅自己。
So--
所以——
That's OK.
没关系。
Mr. X Yeah, and I knew you would know that.
X 先生是的，我就知道你会知道这一点。
But in a strange way, I thought it was important for you to know that I know what happened to you.
但奇怪的是，我认为让你知道我知道你发生了什么事对你来说很重要。
I know how it happened.
我知道这是怎么发生的。
It sounds exactly like how you describe it, except for the fact that it was me and these other people.
听起来和你描述的一模一样，除了我和其他人。
I never did any of that stuff.
我从来没有做过那些事。
So you can believe it or not.
所以你可以相信也可以不相信。
It's fine.
没关系。
But I acknowledge that it occurred.
但我承认它发生了。
So it's OK.
所以没关系。
Thank you very much for acknowledging it.
非常感谢您的认可。
As to the assertion that I'm-- maybe-- or I am the enemy of the United States, I can assure you, for better or worse, for what it's worth, that I've never been the enemy to your country.
至于我是——也许是——或者我是美国的敌人的说法，我可以向你保证，无论好坏，无论其价值如何，我从来都不是你们国家的敌人。
I've never hurt anyone of your country.
我从未伤害过你们国家的任何人。
And for that matter, I never hurt any person, ever, ever.
就此而言，我从来没有伤害过任何人，永远，永远。
And the facts of my case speak to that.
我的案例的事实说明了这一点。
Mr. X tells Mohamedou he believes he was released because the torture made his case impossible to prosecute, not because he was actually innocent.
X 先生告诉穆罕默德杜，他相信自己被释放是因为酷刑使他的案件无法起诉，而不是因为他实际上是无辜的。
I just want to mention one thing to you.
我只想向你提一件事。
So if the United States tortures people, they don't release them, and they don't win cases because they were tortured.
所以如果美国折磨人，他们不会释放他们，他们也不会因为受到酷刑而打赢官司。
Case in point, KSM.
举个例子，KSM。
KSM is Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the man accused of being the mastermind behind 9/11.
KSM 是哈立德·谢赫·穆罕默德，被指控为 9/11 事件的幕后策划者。
He was waterboarded 183 times in a secret prison, and then brought to Guantanamo, where he remains today.
他在秘密监狱中遭受了 183 次水刑，然后被带到关塔那摩，至今仍留在那里。
And the people around him, they were heavily tortured, and they are still in prison.
而他身边的人，他们都受到了惨重的折磨，现在还在监狱里。
So it's not like the United States--
所以它不像美国——
So let me do this, because I'm not going to get into the greater policy decisions that are made above me and above you.
所以让我这样做吧，因为我不会参与在我和你们之上做出的更大的政策决定。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
I'm taking ownership of the things that I was involved in.
我对我所参与的事情拥有所有权。
The way Mr. X interrupts Mohamedou here, he does that several times during the call.
X 先生在这里打断 Mohamedou 的方式，他在通话过程中多次这样做。
Whenever Mohamedou brings something up that Mr. X doesn't want to talk about, he cuts him off.
每当 Mohamedou 提出 X 先生不想谈的事情时，他就会打断他。
It's a tactic he used during the interrogations at Guantanamo to keep Mohamedou on point, keep him talking about the things Mr. X wanted to hear.
这是他在关塔那摩审讯期间使用的一种策略，目的是让穆罕默德保持重点，让他谈论 X 先生想听的事情。
The call lasts about 19 minutes.
通话持续约 19 分钟。
Mr. X speaks for about 14 of them.
X 先生代表其中约 14 人发言。
He seemed like a different person than before the call, when he was polite and considerate.
他看起来和打电话之前判若两人，彬彬有礼，体贴入微。
It was like a switch had flipped inside him.
就好像他体内的一个开关被打开了。
John tries to change the dynamic by bringing up something he and Mr. X had talked about.
约翰试图通过提出他和 X 先生谈论过的事情来改变这种动态。
If it's OK with you, I'm going to send him a picture.
如果你同意的话，我就给他发一张照片。
John wants to send you the painting I did.
约翰想把我画的画寄给你。
This is one of the paintings Mr. X made after he left the military.
这是X先生退伍后创作的画作之一。
It was a portrait of Mohamedou as he remembers him the day when he was beaten.
这是穆罕默德杜被殴打那天的回忆。
Mr. X destroyed the painting after he made it.
X先生创作完这幅画后将其销毁。
He says it was too upsetting to look at.
他说这太令人沮丧了。
But he has a photo of it on his phone.
但他的手机里有一张照片。
John texts Mohamedou the photo while they talk.
他们谈话时，约翰给穆罕默德发了一张照片的短信。
So is-- how are you living now?
那么——你现在过得怎么样？
So are you married?
那你结婚了吗？
Do you have kids?
你有孩子吗？
I'm not going to talk about my family.
我不会谈论我的家人。
I'm not going to talk about my family, man.
我不会谈论我的家庭，伙计。
I'm not going to talk about my family or where I am or what I do or don't do.
我不会谈论我的家人、我在哪里、我做了什么或不做什么。
That's just how it is, pal.
事情就是这样，朋友。
He said he sent the painting to you.
他说他把这幅画寄给你了。
Did you receive it yet?
你收到了吗？
I have-- Mr. X An image-- it's on your WhatsApp.
我有——X 先生一张图片——它在你的 WhatsApp 上。
In the painting, Mohamedou is in bad shape.
画中，穆罕默德的状态很糟糕。
He's bleeding from his nose and lip.
他的鼻子和嘴唇都在流血。
Underneath the blackout goggles, his eye is swollen and bloody.
遮光护目镜下，他的眼睛肿胀、流血。
Mr. X said, in all his years, he had never seen anyone that terrified.
X先生说，他这么多年，从来没有见过这么害怕的人。
Ah, I see.
啊，我明白了。
Ah, wow.
啊，哇。
This detainee looks much better than the actual detainee.
这个被拘留者看上去比真正的被拘留者好看得多。
I don't think so.
我不这么认为。
You didn't look very good that day, and that painting is not meant to make you-- it's to reflect what happened to you, so.
那天你看起来不太好，那幅画并不是为了塑造你——而是为了反映发生在你身上的事情，所以。
If I had done the things, I wouldn't have painted that.
如果我做了这些事，我就不会画那个了。
[CHUCKLES] So.
[轻笑]所以。
Anyway, I wish you good luck, man, wherever you are, whatever you do.
不管怎样，我祝你好运，伙计，无论你在哪里，无论你做什么。
And you know, that's all I can tell you.
你知道，这就是我能告诉你的。
And I completely-- I completely-- like I say, I forgive you.
我完全——我完全——就像我说的，我原谅你。
I don't need you to ask for any forgiveness.
我不需要你请求任何原谅。
I got you.
我接到你了。
That's a personal thing.
这是个人的事情。
I get it.
我得到它。
Yeah.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Mr. X All right.
X先生 好的。
Well, I look forward to seeing the movie when it comes out.
嗯，我很期待这部电影上映后的表现。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Mr. X Yup.
X 先生 是的。
I really don't have anything else to say.
我真的没有什么可说的了。
Tschüss.
楚斯。
Mr. X Tschüss.
X Tschüss 先生。
Close it?
关闭它吗？
What am I doing?
我在做什么？
Yeah?
是的？
Bye.
再见。
Mr. X turns to John.
X 先生转向约翰。
Mr. X Are you happy?
X先生你幸福吗？
Mr. X wasn't happy.
X先生不高兴。
The way he sees it, it's a big deal for a former interrogator to talk to a guy he thinks was a terrorist and admit the way they treated him was wrong.
在他看来，对于一名前审讯员来说，与一个他认为是恐怖分子的人交谈并承认他们对待他的方式是错误的，这是一件大事。
But Mohamedou didn't seem to care.
但穆罕默德似乎并不在意。
He just kept redirecting the conversation, the same way he had done in Guantanamo.
他只是不断地改变谈话方向，就像他在关塔那摩所做的那样。
So then he found himself cutting Mohamedou off.
然后他发现自己打断了穆罕默德。
It was like being Mr. X again, the guy who he worked so hard to get away from for years.
这就像再次成为X先生，他多年来努力摆脱的那个人。
It wasn't a good feeling.
这感觉不太好。
It wasn't a good feeling at all.
这种感觉一点都不好。
I mean, I was absolutely on the defensive, going into it.
我的意思是，我绝对处于守势，进入其中。
Like, I-- it is-- I can't even describe it to you.
就像，我——是的——我什至无法向你描述它。
I don't know about him, but I feel like we're inextricably locked in a dance, a macabre dance, perhaps to our dying day.
我不了解他，但我觉得我们无法摆脱地陷入一场舞蹈，一场可怕的舞蹈，也许直到我们死去的那一天。
In that moment, we weren't Slahi and who I am as a person.
在那一刻，我们不再是斯拉希，也不再是我。
We really both kind of regressed.
我们确实都退步了。
I really believe that's the case, and that's why I had the anger that was coming up.
我真的相信情况就是如此，这就是为什么我会感到愤怒。
And I didn't like that.
我不喜欢那样。
Do you fear that in this intellectual chess game, as you said, kind of who was winning the--
正如你所说，你是否担心在这场智力棋局中，谁会获胜——
Oh, he won.
哦，他赢了。
He won the chess game.
他赢得了国际象棋比赛。
He has been masterful, first of all, for weathering what we subjected him to.
首先，他非常出色地经受住了我们给他带来的考验。
The worst that we could throw at him.
我们可以向他扔出最糟糕的东西。
The worst.
最糟糕的。
To include stuff that should never happen, that is not allowed.
包含不应该发生的事情，这是不允许的。
He weathered 14 years or whatever, 15 years of confinement.
他经历了 14 年，或者说 15 年的监禁。
He wrote a New York Times best-selling book, and most people, hearing his tale now, believe that he is completely innocent of anything that ever was alleged.
他写了一本《纽约时报》畅销书，大多数人现在听到他的故事，都相信他对任何指控都是完全无辜的。
And I don't think that that's accurate.
我认为这并不准确。
Take nothing away from him.
不要拿走任何东西。
I would do exactly the same things.
我也会做同样的事情。
I respect his intellect, his strength of will, his ability to parlay this into something else.
我尊重他的智慧、他的意志力以及他将其转化为其他事物的能力。
Good for him, really.
对他有好处，真的。
And I don't say this sarcastically.
我这么说并不是讽刺。
I mean it.
我是认真的。
Good for you, you know.
对你有好处，你知道。
And yeah, he won.
是的，他赢了。
You won that.
你赢了。
But Mohamedou doesn't think he won.
但穆罕默德不认为他赢了。
And he wasn't happy with how it went with Mr. X, how Mr. X dominated the call.
他对 X 先生的处理方式以及 X 先生如何主导通话感到不满意。
I don't like monologues.
我不喜欢独白。
Because when I want a monologue, I go to Friday prayers.
因为当我想要独白时，我会去参加周五的祈祷。
And just the monologue that he kept on and on and on.
就只有他不停地讲着独白。
And I was polite enough to listen to everything, but I don't want to listen to it anymore, you know.
我很有礼貌地听了一切，但我不想再听了，你知道。
That's it.
就是这样。
How did it make you feel?
你感觉如何？
Mohamedou Ould Slahi Weird.
穆罕默德·乌尔德·斯拉希 很奇怪。
Weird.
诡异的。
Because we say, we have a saying in my culture.
因为我们说，我们在我们的文化中有一种说法。
Allah gave you one mouth and two ears.
安拉给了你一张嘴和两只耳朵。
Do justice to your ears.
公正对待你的耳朵。
Would you be up for watching the conversation you had with him and kind of going into that a little bit?
您愿意观看与他的对话并稍微深入探讨一下吗？
No, I don't want.
不，我不想。
It was a very bad conversation.
这是一次非常糟糕的谈话。
I don't want to listen to it.
我不想听。
You can listen to it.
你可以听听。
I'm not interested.
我对此不感兴趣。
Mohamedou got his wish to have a conversation with his captors where he was a free man.
穆罕默德实现了与绑架者对话的愿望，他是一个自由人。
He wanted that for all kinds of reasons-- forgiveness, revenge, to control his own story.
他出于各种原因想要这样做——宽恕、复仇、控制自己的故事。
With Scott and with Sydney, he found that very satisfying.
与斯科特和悉尼一起，他发现这非常令人满意。
But with Mr. X, what he hadn't counted on was how hard it would be for him, for them, to find a new way to talk to each other.
但对于X先生来说，他没有想到的是，对于他、对于他们来说，要找到一种新的彼此交谈的方式是多么困难。
Bastian Berbner is a reporter for Die Zeit.
巴斯蒂安·贝尔纳 (Bastian Berbner) 是《时代周报》的记者。
If you speak German, the 12-part podcast series he made with John Goetz is called Slahi: 14 Years in Guantanamo.
如果您讲德语，他与 John Goetz 制作的 12 集播客系列名为 Slahi：关塔那摩 14 年。
John Goetz's film, where we got the incredible audio that you heard today, is called In Search of Monsters.
约翰·戈茨 (John Goetz) 的电影《寻找怪物》，我们在其中获得了您今天听到的令人难以置信的音频。
It is now being shown in many European countries but has no American distributor yet.
该片现已在许多欧洲国家上映，但尚未在美国发行。
John is looking for a distributor.
约翰正在寻找经销商。
If you're somebody in the film distribution business, perhaps the streaming business, his contact information is on our website.
如果您从事电影发行业务，也许是流媒体业务，他的联系信息可以在我们的网站上找到。
Darling, nothing's changed.
亲爱的，一切都没有改变。
I still think the same.
我还是这么想。
You want to say.
你想说。
You've got some more to say.
你还有一些话要说。
But I've heard it before.
但我以前听说过。
I've heard it before.
我以前听说过。
All these things in time, these bad conversations on my mind.
所有这些事情，这些糟糕的谈话都在我的脑海里。
Well, our program was produced today by Dana Chivvis.
嗯，我们今天的节目是由 Dana Chivvis 制作的。
People who put together today's show include Elna Baker, Susan Burton, Sean Cole, Aviva DeKornfeld, Damien Graef, Seth Lind, Stowe Nelson, Lina Misitzis, Katherine Rae Mondo, Nadia Reiman, Alix Spiegel, Laura Starecheski, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, and Chloee Weiner.
今天节目的制作人包括 Elna Baker、Susan Burton、Sean Cole、Aviva DeKornfeld、Damien Graef、Seth Lind、Stowe Nelson、Lina Misitzis、Katherine Rae Mondo、Nadia Reiman、Alix Spiegel、Laura Starecheski、Christopher Swetala、Matt Tierney 和 Chloee Weiner。
Our managing editor is Sarah Abdurrahman, our senior editor is David Kestenbaum, our executive editor is Emanuele Berry.
我们的总编辑是 Sarah Abdurrahman，我们的高级编辑是 David Kestenbaum，我们的执行编辑是 Emanuele Berry。
Special thanks today to Poul Erik Heilbuth, Ole Pflueger, the German public broadcaster, NDR, and Sarah Koenig.
今天特别感谢 Poul Erik Heilbuth、Ole Pflueger、德国公共广播公司 NDR 和 Sarah Koenig。
Our website, ThisAmericanLife.org, where you can stream our archive of over 750 episodes for absolutely free.
我们的网站 ThisAmericanLife.org，您可以在其中完全免费地观看我们的 750 多集档案。
Plus there are videos, there is a list of favorite shows.
另外还有视频，还有最喜欢的节目列表。
There's tons of other stuff there.
那里还有很多其他东西。
Again, ThisAmericanLife.org.
再次，ThisAmericanLife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
When I walked in the studio earlier to record today's program, Torey was there, sitting right at this microphone.
当我早些时候走进演播室录制今天的节目时，托里就在那里，坐在麦克风前。
I was like, Torey, I need to get in there.
我当时想，托里，我需要进去。
He was all--
他就是——
Yeah, you will get your chance.
是的，你会得到机会的。
But today, I'm running the show.
但今天，我来主持这出戏。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories on This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多关于《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
This American Life This American Life 与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。