741: The Weight of Words - This American Life
You are using an outdated browser.
您正在使用过时的浏览器。
Please upgrade your browser or activate Google Chrome Frame to improve your experience.
请升级您的浏览器或激活 Google Chrome 浏览器内嵌框架以改善您的体验。
Sign up for a free Life Partners trial, and you can watch the video “A Night of Stories and Improv.”
注册免费试用《Life Partners》，您可以观看视频“故事与即兴表演之夜”。
00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #741 | July 9, 2021 741: The Weight of Words Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 741 集 | 2021 年 7 月 9 日 741：文字的重量 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass A few years back, I gave a talk at Chautauqua, in upstate New York, which, if you don't know what that is, starting in the 1870s, it was this high-minded lecture circuit, like TED Talks, but before the internet or Public Radio before the invention of radio.
序言：序言 Ira Glass 几年前，我在纽约州北部的肖托夸做了一次演讲，如果你不知道那是什么，从 1870 年代开始，这是一个高尚的巡回演讲，就像 TED 演讲一样，但在互联网或公共广播电台发明之前。
With a big religious component, which is how I fell into this long conversation about the literal word of the Bible.
带着很大的宗教成分，这就是我如何陷入这场关于圣经字面意义的长篇对话。
It happened because the staffer who drove me to the airport was a retired Methodist preacher and associate pastor of one of the churches in Chautauqua, named John Jackson.
之所以发生这种事，是因为开车送我去机场的工作人员是一位退休的卫理公会牧师，也是肖托夸一座教堂的副牧师，名叫约翰·杰克逊。
And we had this hour and a half long drive.
我们开了一个半小时的长途车。
And somehow, we got onto how he doesn't believe that every word of the Bible is literally true, which, if you're a Methodist, that's no big deal.
不知何故，我们了解到他并不相信圣经中的每一个字都是真实的，如果你是卫理公会教徒，那没什么大不了的。
And John said, that as he gets older, the literal words of the Bible seem less important to him than the big picture-- love your neighbor as yourself, and love God above all.
约翰说，随着年龄的增长，圣经的字面意思对他来说似乎不再那么重要，重要的是大局——爱人如己，爱神胜过一切。
And I told John, I totally get the "love your neighbor as yourself" part of that.
我告诉约翰，我完全理解其中“爱邻居如己”的部分。
I can see how that can reshape just everything about how you treat others and really everything you do in your life in the world.
我可以看到这将如何重塑你对待他人的一切，以及你在世界上生活中所做的一切。
But I told him, like, I've never really understood, why is it important to love God above all?
但我告诉他，我从来没有真正理解，为什么爱上帝比一切都重要？
Do you know what I mean?
你知道我的意思吗？
If you do what God wants, and you try to be good-- you try to treat others right-- what difference does it make if you love God?
如果你按照上帝的旨意去做，并且努力做好人，努力善待他人，那么如果你爱上帝，那又有什么区别呢？
What does God care?
神在乎什么？
And I got to ask John about a variation on this question, that I've wondered about for a couple of years, ever since the last time I was in synagogue.
我向约翰询问了这个问题的一个变体，自从我上次去犹太教堂以来，我已经想知道这个问题好几年了。
This was, I don't know, this was two or three years before this conversation.
我不知道，这是这次谈话之前的两三年。
I hadn't been to synagogue in forever.
我已经很久没去过犹太教堂了。
And it was the anniversary of my mom's death.
那是我妈妈去世的周年纪念日。
And we're Jews, so you're supposed to go say Kaddish, this old prayer that's one of the central prayers in Judaism, at the anniversary of somebody's death.
我们是犹太人，所以你应该在某人的周年纪念日念诵“卡迪什”，这是犹太教的核心祈祷词之一。
And so my dad and my stepmom and I were at one of the daily services that observant Jews go to every day in Baltimore, where I grew up.
因此，我的父亲、继母和我参加了在我长大的巴尔的摩，虔诚的犹太人每天都会参加的日常仪式之一。
And I always liked going to synagogue as a kid.
我小时候一直喜欢去犹太教堂。
We went a lot.
我们去了很多地方。
And so it was nice going back.
所以很高兴回去。
I know all the Hebrew prayers by heart.
我能背诵所有希伯来语祈祷文。
And I don't know if this is good or bad, but not having sat in a synagogue in over a decade, it really hit me how every day is a rerun.
我不知道这是好还是坏，但十多年来没有坐在犹太教堂里，这真的让我震惊，每天都是重演。
Do you know what I mean?
你知道我的意思吗？
They never do a new episode-- every day, the same words, same songs, in the same order, stretching back hundreds of years.
他们从不制作新的剧集——每天都是同样的台词、同样的歌曲、同样的顺序，可以追溯到几百年前。
They read a new part of the Bible, part of the Torah, some days, so there's that.
有时他们会读圣经的新部分，托拉的一部分，所以就是这样。
But all the rest-- basically exactly the same every day.
但其余的一切——基本上每天都一模一样。
And everybody is singing and chanting.
每个人都在唱歌和喊口号。
And I started looking in the prayer book on the side of the page with the English translation of the prayers, which I hadn't done in years.
我开始查看页面一侧的祈祷书，上面有祈祷的英文翻译，我已经很多年没有这样做了。
And I really was struck at how many of them-- the Amidah, the Ashrei, are about praising God at length.
我真的很惊讶他们中的许多人——Amidah、Ashrei，都在详细地赞美上帝。
That's what the words mean, even the Kaddish, which you say over and over during services.
这就是这些词的意思，甚至是你在礼拜期间一遍又一遍地说的卡迪什语。
It goes on and on.
它一直持续着。
And the words basically are, may His great name be exalted and sanctified, blessed and praised, glorified and exalted, extolled and honored, adored and lauded, be the name of the Holy One.
这些话基本上是，愿他伟大的名字被高举和圣化，祝福和赞美，荣耀和高举，颂扬和荣耀，崇拜和赞美，这是圣者的名字。
And that is what they have say when your mom dies-- comforting, huh?
这就是你妈妈去世时他们所说的——令人安慰，是吧？
It's basically God is great, over and over, building to this beautiful line, really beautiful, that's basically: God is so great, it's beyond the power of any prayer or word or song or praise.
基本上，上帝是伟大的，一遍又一遍，构建出这条美丽的线，真的很美丽，这基本上是：上帝是如此伟大，它超出了任何祈祷、言语、歌曲或赞美的力量。
It's beyond the power of language to capture it.
它超出了语言的力量来捕捉它。
And it really hit me, sitting there.
坐在那儿的我真的很受触动。
What does God get out of that?
神从中得到什么？
Why does he want us sitting down and telling him how great he is for 45 minutes a day?
为什么他要我们每天花 45 分钟坐下来告诉他他有多棒？
Is he that needy?
他有那么需要帮助吗？
If some parent demanded that of their kids-- OK, I want you to praise me for 45 minutes a day, every single day of your life, we would know they were nuts.
如果某个家长对他们的孩子提出这样的要求——好吧，我希望你每天表扬我 45 分钟，每一天，我们就会知道他们疯了。
And it's like what I was saying to John-- what does God care if we love him?
这就像我对约翰说的——如果我们爱他，上帝又在乎什么？
And John had such a lovely answer.
约翰的回答非常可爱。
He said, first off, he thinks lots of people make the mistake of picturing God as being like us, like humans, like he's somebody who we're calling on the phone, or something, when we're praying.
他说，首先，他认为很多人都错误地把上帝想象成像我们一样，像人类一样，就像我们在祈祷时打电话或做其他事情一样。
But the way he sees it, he understands God to be all the values and principles that he sees in scripture-- the obligation to love each other, to be honest and decent in our dealings with each other, all of those things.
但在他看来，他理解上帝就是他在圣经中看到的所有价值观和原则——彼此相爱的义务，在彼此交往中诚实和正派，所有这些事情。
And when he's praising God, he said, that's what he's praising.
当他赞美上帝时，他说，这就是他所赞美的。
He's basically re-pledging himself to those principles, which he loves.
他基本上是在重新承诺遵守他所热爱的这些原则。
In other words, the literal words of the Bible, the literal words of the prayers, aren't as important as that pledge, a pledge to act a certain way in the world.
换句话说，圣经的字面意思，祈祷的字面意思，并不像承诺那样重要，承诺在世界上以某种方式行事。
And reading and calling around in the days since we had that conversation, I've learned that other clergy-- Christian, Jewish, Muslim-- some of them say the same things, especially that God doesn't need our prayers.
自从我们进行那次谈话以来，通过阅读和打电话，我了解到其他神职人员——基督徒、犹太教、穆斯林——他们中的一些人也说了同样的话，尤其是上帝不需要我们的祈祷。
The prayers are for us.
祈祷是为了我们。
One of them told me the Kaddish is supposed to comfort me after my mom's death by pointing me to this idea of God's presence in the world, the goodness in the world, which, if I believed in God, I guess could be a comfort.
其中一个人告诉我，卡迪什应该在我母亲去世后安慰我，让我看到上帝存在于世界上、世界上有善的观念，如果我相信上帝，我想这可能是一种安慰。
But I don't believe.
但我不相信。
But weirdly, even without that, without believing any of the words, I do find it's a comfort to say the prayer.
但奇怪的是，即使没有这些，在不相信任何话语的情况下，我确实发现祈祷是一种安慰。
It's just it's familiar.
只是它很熟悉而已。
It's familiar as the nursery rhymes my mom sang to me as a kid, as the Shema, the prayer that she had me and my sister say every night before we went to sleep.
它就像我小时候妈妈给我唱的童谣一样熟悉，就像她让我和我姐姐每天晚上睡觉前说的“Shema”祈祷一样。
It's comforting, despite the fact that it's in another language and part of a doctrine I don't believe anymore.
尽管它是用另一种语言写成的，而且是我不再相信的教义的一部分，但这还是令人感到安慰。
Just the fact of it handed to me by my parents and to them by their parents-- Freida and Lou and Melvin and Molly; and their parents before them-- David, Elizabeth, and Isidore; and people whose names I don't even know; and before them, their parents for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years; and standing in synagogue that day, standing and saying these words in unison with other mourners, it was comforting.
事实上，这是我的父母和他们的父母——芙蕾达、卢、梅尔文和莫莉——传递给我的。他们的父母——大卫、伊丽莎白和伊西多尔；还有那些我连名字都不知道的人；在他们之前，还有他们数百年的父母；那天站在犹太教堂里，与其他哀悼者一起站着说这些话，令人感到安慰。
Today on our show, the sometimes very old words that we turn to for comfort in moments of adversity and at other times, they can be very random-- the novel Little Women, A Tribe Called Quest and other old school hip hop-- we have stories about each of those.
今天在我们的节目中，有时我们在逆境时会求助于一些非常古老的词语来寻求安慰，而在其他时候，它们可能非常随意——小说《小妇人》、《一个叫做探索的部落》和其他老派嘻哈音乐——我们都有关于每一个的故事。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act 1-- Go to the Mattresses.
第 1 幕——走向床垫。
Shamyla always loved books.
沙米拉一直喜欢读书。
Back in 1989, like lots of other 11-year-olds, she also loved Punky Brewster and Paula Abdul.
早在 1989 年，她就和许多其他 11 岁孩子一样喜欢 Punky Brewster 和 Paula Abdul。
But her main thing was reading-- The Baby-Sitters Club books, Little House on the Prairie.
但她最主要的事情是阅读——《保姆俱乐部》的书籍、《草原上的小屋》。
It was all about words and books.
一切都与文字和书籍有关。
And then something happened, which totally changed what she read and how.
然后发生了一些事情，彻底改变了她阅读的内容和方式。
Elna Baker talked to her.
埃尔娜·贝克与她交谈。
This is a story we first broadcast a few years ago.
这是我们几年前首次播出的故事。
Today's show is a rerun.
今天的节目是重播。
Here's Elna.
这是艾尔娜。
OK, so you meet somebody at a party, and they ask you, what's your favorite book?
好吧，你在聚会上遇到某人，他们问你，你最喜欢的书是什么？
What's your answer?
你的答案是什么？
My answer is Little Women is my all-time favorite book.
我的回答是《小妇人》是我一直以来最喜欢的书。
And then if they were to ask you, why?
然后如果他们问你，为什么？
What would you say?
你会说什么？
Well, I probably would have a very long conversation with someone about that.
好吧，我可能会和某人就此进行一次很长时间的交谈。
But it goes back to the '90s, when I was living in Pakistan.
但这可以追溯到 90 年代，当时我住在巴基斯坦。
And this was the only book that I had in my possession for a couple of years.
这是我几年来唯一拥有的一本书。
A couple of years, when she was basically held in captivity in Pakistan.
几年后，她基本上被囚禁在巴基斯坦。
I'll tell you how she found herself holed up with only one book in a minute.
我会告诉你她是如何在一分钟内发现自己只看一本书的。
But first, here's how she ended up in captivity.
但首先，这就是她最终被囚禁的原因。
She was raised in suburban Maryland.
她在马里兰州郊区长大。
Her father was an economist, her mom a teacher.
她的父亲是一名经济学家，母亲是一名教师。
She went to an all-girls prep school.
她去了一所女子预科学校。
At 11, she learned her parents weren't her biological parents.
11岁时，她得知她的父母不是她的亲生父母。
Her mom, the oldest daughter in her family, couldn't have kids and really wanted to.
她的妈妈是家里的长女，她不能生孩子，但又很想生孩子。
And so Shamyla's family came up with a solution, one that's not unusual in Pakistan.
因此，沙米拉的家人想出了一个解决方案，这在巴基斯坦并不罕见。
Since her mom was the oldest, it was her younger sister's obligation to give her a child.
由于妈妈是老大，妹妹有义务给她生一个孩子。
And because of this family pressure and a sense of duty, the younger sister did it.
而迫于这种家庭压力和责任感，妹妹就这么做了。
But then it got complicated.
但后来事情变得复杂了。
Well, my adoptive parents had kids.
嗯，我的养父母有孩子。
They had a son.
他们有一个儿子。
And then they had another son.
然后他们又生了一个儿子。
And that really made my biological family confused and angry.
这确实让我的亲生家庭感到困惑和愤怒。
And they were like, we gave you our child, and now you have your own children.
他们说，我们给了你我们的孩子，现在你有了自己的孩子。
Give us our daughter back.
把我们的女儿还给我们。
And my mom said, I'm not going to give her back.
我妈妈说，我不会把她还给我。
She's not a ball.
她不是一个球。
I can't toss her back.
我不能把她扔回去。
For years, they fought over this.
多年来，他们为此争论不休。
When Shamyla was 12, on a visit home to Pakistan, her birth parents asked if they could take her on a trip.
沙米拉 12 岁时，在回巴基斯坦的家中时，她的亲生父母询问是否可以带她去旅行。
Her mom agreed, as a gesture of goodwill.
她妈妈同意了，以示善意。
It'd just be a week long, and she'd get to know her cousins, who were actually her brothers.
只需一周的时间，她就会认识她的表兄弟姐妹，他们实际上是她的兄弟。
And at first, it was really fun.
起初，这真的很有趣。
Until I got really sick at someone's house.
直到我在某人家里病得很重。
And it turned out I had malaria.
结果我得了疟疾。
And what I didn't realize at the time was that they had taken me there on purpose, because it was way out in the country, where no one could find me.
当时我没有意识到他们是故意带我去那里的，因为那是在乡下，没人能找到我。
Two weeks go by, then three.
两周过去了，然后是三周。
She's all better, asking when she can go back.
她已经好多了，问她什么时候可以回去。
And they kept making excuses-- um, not-- you just need to wait.
他们一直在找借口——嗯，不是——你只需要等待。
We have some other places to go.
我们还有一些其他地方要去。
And I remember, at some point, my biological father taking me aside very kindly and saying, you know, we're your real family.
我记得，在某个时候，我的亲生父亲非常友善地把我拉到一边说，你知道，我们是你真正的家人。
They never loved you.
他们从来没有爱过你。
We love you.
我们爱你。
They loved you like the way people love slippers, like an old, used pair of slippers.
他们爱你就像人们爱拖鞋一样，爱一双旧的、用过的拖鞋。
But they love their boys, because that's their blood.
但他们爱他们的孩子，因为那是他们的血统。
And we're your blood, and that's how we love you.
我们是你的血脉，这就是我们爱你的方式。
So you're staying with us now.
所以你现在和我们住在一起。
They don't let her leave, and she's really confused-- of course, my US parents love me.
他们不让她离开，她真的很困惑——当然，我的美国父母爱我。
They must love me.
他们一定爱我。
But then, if they loved me, why aren't they coming to get me?
但如果他们爱我，为什么不来抓我呢？
Unbeknownst to her, her US parents are trying to find out where she is.
她不知道的是，她的美国父母正在试图找出她在哪里。
But no one will tell them.
但没有人会告诉他们。
To make matters worse, her US parents are not legally Shamyla's parents.
更糟糕的是，她的美国父母在法律上并不是沙米拉的父母。
The adoption was never formal.
收养从来都不是正式的。
She was just handed over.
她刚刚被移交。
So they have no legal claim to their daughter, and there's nothing Shamyla could do.
所以他们对女儿没有合法的权利，沙米拉也无能为力。
She was 12.
她12岁。
Even if I fantasized about running away to another city and seeing other relatives, I was like, how will I do it?
即使我幻想着逃到另一个城市去见见其他亲戚，我也会想，我该怎么办呢？
What will I do?
我该怎么办？
Where will I get the money?
我从哪里得到钱？
How will I get on the train?
我该如何上车？
How will I get on a plane?
我该如何登机？
What will I do?
我该怎么办？
You were trapped.
你被困住了。
Shamyla I was trapped, yeah.
Shamyla 我被困住了，是的。
She says her birth parents told her, when she was growing up, whenever they saw her, it was upsetting to them.
她说她的亲生父母告诉她，在她成长的过程中，每当他们看到她时，都会感到不安。
They thought, she's too Americanized.
他们认为，她太美国化了。
They were incredibly traditional, even for Pakistan, which is already very patriarchal.
即使对于已经非常重男轻女的巴基斯坦来说，他们也非常传统。
Women are expected to be subordinate.
女性被认为是从属的。
And if their purity is questioned, like if they're even seen speaking to a man in a public place, their family's reputation could be ruined, and the whole family could be ostracized from the community for it.
如果他们的纯洁性受到质疑，比如如果有人看到他们在公共场所与男人交谈，他们家族的声誉可能会被毁，整个家庭可能会因此被社区排斥。
This is especially the case in Peshawar, where her birth parents lived.
在她的亲生父母居住的白沙瓦尤其如此。
And Shamyla, a suburban Maryland tween, didn't understand that this was the world she lived in now.
沙米拉是马里兰州郊区的一名青少年，她不明白这就是她现在生活的世界。
She says everything about the way she acted was wrong in their eyes.
她说她的行为方式在他们眼里都是错误的。
They didn't approve of the music she listened to or the books she read.
他们不喜欢她听的音乐或读的书。
They thought they were teaching her to be far too independent for a girl.
他们认为他们正在教导她对于一个女孩来说过于独立。
At this rate, she'd become promiscuous any day now.
照这样下去，她迟早会变得放荡。
And since they didn't trust her not to be, they kept her under house arrest, confining her to a corner of the house that consisted of a bedroom and a bathroom.
由于他们不相信她不会这样，所以他们将她软禁起来，将她限制在由一间卧室和一间浴室组成的房子的一个角落里。
And they confiscated her cassettes and her books.
他们没收了她的录音带和书籍。
Her birth father would lecture to her for hours.
她的亲生父亲会给她讲课几个小时。
His favorite three topics were America is a bad place, especially for girls.
他最喜欢的三个话题是美国是一个糟糕的地方，尤其是对女孩来说。
American women are loose character and horrible.
美国女人性格散漫，可怕。
The second topic was your adopted family never really loved you, never.
第二个话题是你的收养家庭从来没有真正爱过你，从来没有。
And the third topic was, so here's what you're going to do when you get married.
第三个话题是，这就是你结婚后要做的事情。
These are your wifely duties, including your sexual obligations to your husband.
这些是你作为妻子的义务，包括你对丈夫的性义务。
He'd also lecture her about the rules she needed to follow.
他还会向她讲授她需要遵守的规则。
Some were the normal rules of an observant Muslim home.
有些是虔诚的穆斯林家庭的正常规则。
She couldn't go out without being covered, make eye contact, wear her hair down.
如果不被遮盖、眼神交流、把头发披下来，她就无法出门。
Others were cultural-- she couldn't hug people; wear glasses when guests came over; speak English or Urdu, which would be seen as a sign of modernity.
其他则是文化方面的——她不能拥抱别人；她不能拥抱别人。客人过来时戴眼镜；说英语或乌尔都语，这将被视为现代性的标志。
Only Pashto, the language of the region, was allowed.
只允许使用该地区的语言普什图语。
She couldn't serve herself food before her brothers.
她不能在哥哥们面前给自己上菜。
She was barely allowed to eat.
她几乎不被允许吃饭。
They thought she needed to be thin to get married, so they locked the fridge.
他们认为她需要瘦才能结婚，所以他们锁上了冰箱。
She says, if she messed up, she was beaten with a kitchen squeegee, which cut her face open, or a walking stick.
她说，如果她搞砸了，她就会被厨房用的橡皮扫帚或手杖殴打，这会划破她的脸。
That was the worst one, she says.
她说，那是最糟糕的一次。
The second worst one was with a golf club.
第二糟糕的是高尔夫球杆。
And the third worst one was with cleats near my eye.
第三糟糕的是我眼睛附近有防滑钉。
And I think I got kicked.
我想我被踢了。
Elna Baker She asked me not to reach out to her birth parents to confirm these details, because she was worried for her safety.
埃尔娜·贝克 (Elna Baker) 她要求我不要联系她的亲生父母来确认这些细节，因为她担心自己的安全。
And I didn't.
但我没有。
But members of her family here in the States confirmed that this is what her birth parents are like.
但她在美国的家人证实，这就是她的亲生父母的样子。
And her mother and therapist corroborated that her story of being abused has always remained consistent.
她的母亲和治疗师证实，她被虐待的故事始终保持一致。
I remember, after every time they would beat me, I'd put an X on whatever calendar I had and be like, this will never happen again.
我记得，每次他们打败我后，我都会在我的日历上打上“X”，然后说，这种事再也不会发生了。
I will be so good now, that this will never happen again.
我现在会很好，这样的事情不会再发生了。
Like, from this day forward, I'll finally be a good girl.
就好像，从今天开始，我终于要做一个好女孩了。
Yep.
是的。
Elna Baker Did you feel like you'd never be the girl they wanted you to be?
埃尔娜·贝克（Elna Baker）：你是否觉得你永远无法成为他们希望你成为的女孩？
No, I thought eventually, I'm going to get there.
不，我想最终我会到达那里。
I just have to keep trying.
我只需要继续努力。
I really thought that eventually, I'm going to become that person.
我真的以为我最终会成为那样的人。
She wasn't just physically abused.
她不仅受到身体虐待。
As she got older, she says, she was also sexually abused by her brother.
她说，随着年龄的增长，她还受到哥哥的性虐待。
And finally, into this bleakness, comes a book, the book, Little Women.
最后，在这片荒凉之中，出现了一本书，《小妇人》。
So one of my friends noticed the book at a book fair at our school.
我的一个朋友在我们学校的书展上注意到了这本书。
All these books had come from Singapore.
所有这些书都来自新加坡。
And there was Little Women.
还有《小妇人》。
I said, I know this book, and I want it.
我说，我知道这本书，我想要它。
And I remember thinking, oh my god, I read that book when I was little.
我记得我当时想，天哪，我小时候读过那本书。
I had a huge, beautiful illustrated copy growing up.
在我成长的过程中，有一本巨大而精美的插图。
And I said to my friend Mirjana, I was like, Mirjana, can you please buy it?
我对我的朋友 Mirjana 说，Mirjana，你能买它吗？
It's 10 rupees, and I'll pay you back.
10卢比，我还给你。
She'd tried smuggling books home before, but she'd always been caught.
她以前曾尝试过将书籍偷运回家，但总是被抓住。
She hid the book inside her mattress pad underneath the bed.
她把书藏在床底下的床垫里。
And she broke it into sections, roughly eight piles, so that it didn't make the mattress stick up in any way.
她把它分成几段，大约八堆，这样床垫就不会以任何方式粘起来。
When she heard her family go out, she'd wait, and then carefully unzip the mattress pad, and take a section of the book out at a time.
当她听到家人出去时，她会等待，然后小心地拉开床垫的拉链，一次取出一部分书。
Whichever one she pulled out first, she read.
无论她先拿出哪一本，她都会读。
It was the book of my life.
这是我一生的书。
It was the only book I had to escape.
这是我唯一必须逃离的书。
It was the only book that I had to actually read over and over again.
这是唯一一本我必须一遍又一遍地阅读的书。
And I kind of memorized it.
我已经记住了。
I'm going to read you like some quotes from the book.
我会像书中的一些引言一样读给你听。
OK.
好的。
Elna Baker And just interrupt if you know where it is or what this is about.
Elna Baker 如果你知道它在哪里或者是关于什么的，就打断一下。
And then I'm going to just random open book.
然后我会随机打开一本书。
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
Ooh: Mercy on me.
哦：怜悯我吧。
Beth loves Laurie, she said, sitting down in--
贝丝爱劳里，她说，坐在——
Oh, this is when Beth is ill.
哦，这是贝丝生病的时候。
And Beth is changing, and she thinks the secret is that Beth is in love with Laurie.
而贝丝正在改变，她认为秘密是贝丝爱上了劳里。
Mrs. March and Jo were deep in their own affairs, when a sound from Meg made them look up to see her staring at her note.
马奇太太和乔正沉浸在自己的事情中，这时梅格的声音让他们抬起头，看到她盯着她的纸条。
Oh, that's when-- [LAUGHING] that's when Meg has written to Mr. Brooke, and he actually writes back.
哦，就在那时——[笑]就在那时梅格给布鲁克先生写了信，而他实际上也回信了。
But it was Laurie pretending to be Mr. Brooke.
但劳里假装是布鲁克先生。
We did this eight times, and she's able to get everything I read within seconds.
我们这样做了八次，她能够在几秒钟内获得我读到的所有内容。
You're good at this.
你很擅长这个。
Shamyla [LAUGHING] I told you, I read this book over and over and over.
Shamyla [笑]我告诉过你，我一遍又一遍地读这本书。
How many times?
多少次？
Shamyla Oh, hundreds.
沙米拉 哦，数百。
By now, it's probably thousands.
到现在为止，可能有数千人。
If you haven't read Little Women, it's basically about four sisters, the March sisters.
如果你还没有读过《小妇人》，它基本上是关于四姐妹，马奇姐妹。
Meg, the oldest, is the responsible one.
梅格是最年长的，是负责人。
Jo is the rebel and the writer.
乔是叛逆者和作家。
Beth is sick.
贝丝病了。
And Amy, the youngest, is a spoiled brat.
最小的艾米是个被宠坏的孩子。
Their father is serving in the Civil War, and their mother is raising them alone.
他们的父亲在内战中服役，母亲独自抚养他们。
The book follows these girls from childhood into adulthood.
这本书讲述了这些女孩从童年到成年的故事。
Were there parts of the book that you would just read over and over, like, your favorite parts?
书中是否有您会一遍又一遍地阅读的部分，例如您最喜欢的部分？
I loved reading the parts in the beginning, when the two sisters would talk to each other, Meg and Jo, and their bond.
我喜欢读一开始的部分，梅格和乔两姐妹互相交谈，以及她们的纽带。
Because I didn't have a sister, and I had no one to talk to.
因为我没有妹妹，也没有人可以倾诉。
And I really loved the scenes about parties and stuff.
我真的很喜欢派对之类的场景。
She loved these scenes, because they mirrored her life in a really specific way.
她喜欢这些场景，因为它们以一种非常具体的方式反映了她的生活。
Her birth parents were upper middle class, and they wanted to use Shamyla to marry into a higher class.
她的亲生父母是中上层阶级，他们想利用莎米拉嫁入上层阶级。
So they dressed her up and took her to social events to show her off.
于是他们给她打扮得漂漂亮亮的，带她去参加社交活动来炫耀她。
In the book, there are events like this that the March sisters go to.
书中有马奇姐妹参加的类似活动。
There's a chapter about Meg and Jo going to a party in the very beginning.
开头有一章是关于梅格和乔去参加聚会的。
And they're not out yet in society.
而且他们还没有走出社会。
And I was like, Oh my god, this 1860-something book is what's happening in Peshawar in 1990.
我当时想，天啊，这本 1860 年左右的书就是 1990 年白沙瓦发生的事情。
Oh my god, it's the same thing.
天哪，这是同一件事。
I'm not out yet in society, and I have to be very careful how I present myself.
我还没有踏入社会，我必须非常小心地展示自己。
In a way, Little Women was the perfect book for Shamyla's situation, because it's like a how-to for girls, a survival guide.
在某种程度上，《小妇人》对于沙米拉的情况来说是一本完美的书，因为它就像女孩的指南，一本生存指南。
Like most women who read the book, the sister Shamyla relates to the most is Jo.
和大多数读过这本书的女性一样，与莎米拉关系最密切的妹妹是乔。
She was my favorite, too.
她也是我最喜欢的。
I was raised in a strict religion, and my life was supposed to be about marriage and motherhood.
我是在严格的宗教氛围中长大的，我的生活应该是关于婚姻和母性的。
And then Jo came into my orbit and showed me I could have ambition, and be improper, and break the rules.
然后乔进入了我的轨道，向我展示了我可以有野心，也可以不正当，也可以打破规则。
And I loved her for it.
我因此爱她。
And that's how Shamyla felt.
沙米拉就是这么想的。
Jo helped Shamyla hold on to the identity her family was trying so hard to squash.
乔帮助沙米拉保持了她的家人极力压制的身份。
There's a part where Jo and Laurie go running.
乔和劳里有一段跑步的地方。
And Meg scolds her and says, when will you learn to be ladylike?
梅格骂她说，你什么时候才能学会淑女风范？
And she says, I hope never.
她说，我希望永远不会。
I always want to run, and I always want to romp.
我总是想跑，我总是想嬉闹。
And I thought, me too.
我想，我也是。
I never want to have to stop being spirited and independent.
我永远不想停止精力充沛和独立。
And I remember Jo had a temper in the book.
我记得乔在书中发过脾气。
And I thought, I have a temper, too.
我想，我也有脾气。
And she's working really hard to curb it, and I was like, I am, too.
她非常努力地遏制这种情况，我当时想，我也是。
I didn't have any of the freedom Jo had.
我没有乔所拥有的自由。
But in my heart, I was just as feisty and independent.
但在我心里，我同样活泼、独立。
So I think it's very funny when nowadays, my friends are like, well, you were so meek.
所以我觉得现在很有趣，我的朋友们都说，嗯，你太温顺了。
And I was like, I was never meek.
我当时想，我从来都不温顺。
That's just a facade.
那只是一个门面。
[LAUGHING] I'm Jo.
[笑]我是乔。
I get her.
我明白她了。
But in a way, what's so interesting is it's so literally like your way of being Jo was reading about Jo.
但在某种程度上，最有趣的是，这就像你在阅读有关乔的文章时所扮演的乔一样。
That's where you actually got to be Jo.
那就是你真正必须成为乔的地方。
Yeah, I couldn't really do anything else.
是的，我真的无能为力。
In the book, Jo writes stories.
在书中，乔写了故事。
Shamyla loved to write, too.
沙米拉也喜欢写作。
But she says, the second year she was there, her birth father declared, girls aren't supposed to write, and took a notebook filled with her stories, and burned it in the backyard, and made her watch.
但她说，她在那里的第二年，她的亲生父亲宣布，女孩不应该写作，并拿了一本写满她故事的笔记本，在后院烧了它，让她看。
In the book, Jo writes her stories alone in the attic.
在书中，乔独自在阁楼里写她的故事。
This gave Shamyla the idea to sneak into her bathroom with a fountain pen and paper and write.
这让沙米拉萌生了用钢笔和纸溜进浴室写字的想法。
And then I would wash all the ink off the paper, crumple up the wet paper, and throw it up the hole in the window mesh.
然后我会把纸上的所有墨水洗掉，把湿纸揉成一团，然后把它扔进窗纱的洞里。
Wait, you would write the stories and then erase everything you'd written?
等等，你会写故事然后删除你写的所有东西吗？
So there was a hose that attached from the tub to the sink.
所以有一根软管从浴缸连接到水槽。
And so I would take that hose and wash all the ink off.
所以我会拿起那根软管，把所有的墨水洗掉。
Down the drain of-- Shamyla There was a floor drain, and I'd make sure that the floor drain was not blue with the blue ink [LAUGHING] and that there was no sign of ink that had fallen off the papers.
下水道——Shamyla 有一个地漏，我要确保地漏不是蓝色的，有蓝色墨水[笑]，而且没有墨水从纸上掉下来的迹象。
Shamyla knew how our family would react if they caught her writing or if they found her copy of Little Women and read any of it.
沙米拉知道，如果我们的家人发现她写的东西，或者发现她的《小妇人》并读了其中任何一本，他们会作何反应。
Like, there's a boy in the book.
比如，书里有一个男孩。
His name is Laurie.
他的名字叫劳里。
He and Jo have an innocent flirtation.
他和乔有一种天真的调情。
But Shamyla says, if her birth parents read that part, they'd think--
但沙米拉说，如果她的亲生父母读到那部分，他们会想——
You don't go over to adolescent boy's house ever.
你永远不会去青春期男孩的家。
There's no innocence in this.
这其中没有任何纯真。
In real life, Jo and Laurie would be doing very bad things.
在现实生活中，乔和劳里会做非常糟糕的事情。
This is not right.
这是不对的。
Well, they're saying, in real life, Jo and Laurie would be getting it on?
好吧，他们是说，在现实生活中，乔和劳里会相处得很好吗？
Basically.
基本上。
Elna Baker I mean, that would have been a better book, right?
埃尔娜·贝克（Elna Baker）我的意思是，那会是一本更好的书，对吧？
[LAUGHING] Elna Baker I loved that.
[笑]埃尔娜·贝克（Elna Baker）我喜欢这个。
Oh my gosh I was like, in my fan fiction, I would write that.
哦，天哪，我想，在我的同人小说中，我会写这个。
That's so funny.
太有趣了。
Elna Baker After a year, Shamyla's American mother was allowed to visit her.
埃尔娜·贝克 (Elna Baker) 一年后，沙米拉的美国母亲获准探望她。
Shamyla told her what was happening.
沙米拉告诉她发生了什么事。
Her American mother cried and begged for her extended family to intervene and send Shamyla back to the States.
她的美国母亲哭着恳求她的大家庭介入并将沙米拉送回美国。
But it was useless.
但这没有用。
Shamyla felt abandoned and hopeless.
沙米拉感到被抛弃和绝望。
So she gave in, did her best to make herself into the obedient Pashtun girl they wanted her to be.
所以她屈服了，尽最大努力让自己成为他们希望她成为的听话的普什图女孩。
There's a scene in the book, one I hated, because it was so sad, that Shamyla read over and over again.
书中有一个场景，我讨厌这个场景，因为它太悲伤了，沙米拉一遍又一遍地读着。
I reread Beth's dying a lot, because there was this sense of helplessness.
我经常重读贝丝的死，因为有一种无助感。
And I really understood that in a way that a lot of people don't.
我确实以一种很多人不理解的方式理解了这一点。
Because I knew, when something's inevitable, and it's going to happen, they keep saying, the tide is going out, in the book.
因为我知道，当某些事情不可避免并且即将发生时，他们总是在书中说，潮水即将退去。
And I was like, yeah, when the tide goes out, you just have to go with it.
我当时想，是的，当潮水退去时，你就必须随波逐流。
You can't fight it.
你无法对抗它。
I understood that on a level I couldn't even explain.
我在某种程度上理解了这一点，我什至无法解释。
I just knew what that meant.
我只知道那意味着什么。
It sounds like their world feels so real to you.
听起来他们的世界对你来说是如此真实。
[LAUGHING] I know.
[笑]我知道。
It really does.
确实如此。
I felt like I lived with them sometimes.
有时我觉得我和他们住在一起。
What do you mean?
你是什么意思？
Shamyla I felt like I was watching them, like I was the servant, or something, watching.
沙米拉 我觉得我在看着他们，就像我是仆人什么的，在看着。
I felt like I lived in the attic, and I could go downstairs and see them.
我感觉就像住在阁楼里一样，我可以下楼去看他们。
They couldn't see me, but I could see them.
他们看不到我，但我能看到他们。
And I would join the world.
我会加入这个世界。
I would join in.
我会加入。
Her real world, of course was much darker.
当然，她的现实世界要黑暗得多。
By the time she got to 17 or 18, she concluded that there's really only one way out to escape her family and maybe even have a happy life.
当她17岁或18岁时，她得出结论，实际上只有一个出路可以逃离家人，甚至可能过上幸福的生活。
I was like, OK, so the way out is marriage.
我当时想，好吧，所以出路就是结婚。
So I have to play this game to get married.
所以我必须要玩这个游戏才能结婚。
And I started to actually kind of be like, OK, so in Little Women, you know how Meg goes to society dances, and wears her glove, and starts putting her hair up?
我实际上开始想，好吧，所以在《小妇人》中，你知道梅格如何去参加社交舞会，戴上手套，开始把头发盘起来吗？
I was like, I can do this.
我当时想，我可以做到这一点。
I can do this to get the best possible way out.
我可以这样做，以获得最好的出路。
I was really thinking about how to create my life with someone else and what that would look like.
我真的在思考如何与别人一起创造我的生活以及那会是什么样子。
And so I had stopped so much caring about going home or going back.
所以我不再那么关心回家或回去。
And marriage is actually what the second part of Little Women is about.
而婚姻其实就是《小妇人》第二部的主题。
The second half of the book is very different from the first.
这本书的后半部分与前半部分有很大不同。
It covers domestic duties and how the girls let go of their wild ways to become good wives.
它涵盖了家庭责任以及女孩们如何摆脱放荡的生活方式成为好妻子。
The book, the second book, I remember thinking, I don't like this part.
这本书，第二本书，我记得我当时想，我不喜欢这一部分。
I like going back to their childhood and reading that part again.
我喜欢回到他们的童年并再次阅读那部分内容。
I know.
我知道。
It's so, so, so sad.
真是太、太、太悲伤了。
Elna Baker I think I'd really forgotten the message of the second half of the book.
埃尔娜·贝克（Elna Baker）：我想我真的忘记了本书后半部分的信息。
And it's kind of infuriating, when you realize how, in some ways, it feels almost like a propaganda for becoming the way you're supposed to be.
当你意识到，在某些方面，这几乎就像是一种宣传，让你成为你应该成为的样子，这有点令人愤怒。
Yeah.
是的。
I remember thinking, when Meg gets married, they have a whole chapter about how she loses her freedom.
我记得我想，当梅格结婚时，他们有一整章讲述她如何失去自由。
And I was like, Oh god, I don't want that to be my story when I get married.
我当时想，天哪，我不想在我结婚后成为我的故事。
I understood a lot of that, because that was what was being asked of me at that time, to give up, give up, give up, in order to be a woman to live in the society and be married and have a family.
我很明白这一点，因为这就是当时对我的要求，放弃，放弃，放弃，为了成为一个女人，在社会上生活，结婚，建立家庭。
A friend at Shamyla's school told her she had a brother that Shamyla could marry, who would treat her well.
沙米拉学校的一位朋友告诉她，沙米拉可以嫁给一个哥哥，他会对她很好。
So she began corresponding with him via her friend.
于是她开始通过她的朋友与他通信。
But her family found out.
但她的家人发现了。
And they were terrified that their reputation was going to be destroyed by it.
他们害怕自己的声誉会因此而毁掉。
Girls do not communicate directly with boys.
女孩不直接与男孩交流。
And they did what lots of families might do.
他们做了很多家庭可能做的事情。
They pulled her out of school and quickly started arranging her marriage to a 30-year-old man.
他们让她退学，并很快开始安排她与一名 30 岁的男人结婚。
As part of their damage control, they decided to send Shamyla away for a few weeks.
作为损害控制的一部分，他们决定将沙米拉送走几周。
But their only relatives who weren't in Peshawar were in America.
但他们唯一不在白沙瓦的亲戚在美国。
So they made arrangements to send her back.
于是他们安排将她送回去。
And while she was there, her birth father and mother wanted her to learn new skills that would add to her bride price, the money the groom's family would be expected to pay them.
当她在那里时，她的亲生父亲和母亲希望她学习新技能，这会增加她的彩礼，即新郎的家人将支付给他们的钱。
He sent me with a whole list.
他给我发了一份完整的清单。
He was like, you have to learn driving, shorthand, swimming.
他说，你必须学开车、速记、游泳。
[LAUGHING]
[笑]
It just seems like, after all the work they did to get you to stay, and also, their plans to marry you off, it just seems crazy that they would let you go back.
看起来，在他们为让你留下来付出了所有努力之后，而且他们还计划把你嫁出去，他们让你回去似乎很疯狂。
Well it's funny, because she even said something crazy.
嗯，这很有趣，因为她甚至说了一些疯狂的话。
She's like, if they're going to do anything to fix your face-- because remember, they cut my face open-- she's like, ask them if they can put a mole down there, like Cindy Crawford.
她就像，如果他们要采取任何措施来修复你的脸——因为记住，他们把我的脸切开——她就像，问他们是否可以在那里放一颗痣，就像辛迪克劳馥一样。
And so I was like, OK, let's add mole to the list of things that will happen.
所以我想，好吧，让我们将摩尔添加到将要发生的事情列表中。
[LAUGHING]
[笑]
They send her to stay with her US parents.
他们送她去和她的美国父母住在一起。
Her birth father is so confident that Shamyla is one of them now, that she'll obediently return to Pakistan.
她的亲生父亲非常有信心沙米拉现在是他们中的一员，她会乖乖地返回巴基斯坦。
He doesn't question letting her go.
他没有质疑让她走。
A female chaperone traveled with her.
一名女陪同人员与她同行。
So we walked onto the tarmac.
于是我们走上了停机坪。
I climbed up in the plane.
我爬上了飞机。
And as the plane took off, I just started crying nonstop.
当飞机起飞时，我开始不停地哭泣。
Because I knew I wasn't coming back.
因为我知道我不会再回来了。
I just knew.
我刚刚知道。
I didn't know how I knew it.
我不知道我是怎么知道的。
I don't know why I knew it.
我不知道为什么我知道它。
And I'm watching Pakistan slip away, and I'm like, I'm not going back here.
我看着巴基斯坦渐渐消失，我就想，我不会再回到这里了。
It's never happening.
这永远不会发生。
And was it relief?
这是一种解脱吗？
Shamyla No. I was sad.
Shamyla 不，我很伤心。
I was really, really sad.
我真的非常非常难过。
And I was like, goodbye, life that I knew.
我当时想，再见了，我所熟悉的生活。
At first, she had a hard time coming back to America.
起初，她很难回到美国。
She was in total culture shock.
她完全处于文化冲击之中。
She could hardly speak English.
她几乎不会说英语。
She didn't recognize her little brothers.
她不认识她的弟弟们。
The internet existed now.
互联网现在已经存在了。
It was like she'd woken up from a coma.
她就像是从昏迷中醒来一样。
I remember thinking, I still like big hair.
我记得我当时想，我还是喜欢大头发。
And everyone's like, that ended in 1989.
每个人都喜欢，这一切在 1989 年就结束了。
No one does that anymore.
没有人再这么做了。
And I was like, but I like that.
我当时想，但我喜欢那样。
They're like, no, now we straighten our hair.
他们说，不，现在我们拉直头发。
And I was like, I don't like that.
我当时想，我不喜欢那样。
Well, you have to.
好吧，你必须这样做。
She enrolled in community college.
她就读于社区大学。
But she'd been so indoctrinated, it was hard for her to just switch it off.
但她已经被灌输太多了，很难将其关闭。
She'd see women in skirts and catch herself judging them.
她会看到穿裙子的女人，然后发现自己在评判她们。
For the first few years, she was a mess.
最初几年，她过得一团糟。
Trying to switch off the ideology was nearly impossible.
试图关闭意识形态几乎是不可能的。
She started to see a therapist, who helped her process the extent of what happened to her.
她开始去看治疗师，治疗师帮助她处理发生在她身上的事情的严重程度。
There's something her mother said to me on the phone I can't stop thinking about.
她妈妈在电话里对我说的一些话我一直在想。
It's something she told her little sister once.
这是她曾经对她妹妹说过的话。
Between you and me, we've ruined Shamyla's life.
你我之间，我们毁了沙米拉的生活。
It's been 23 years since she returned.
她回来已经23年了。
Her life actually diverged from the second half of Little Women, the part she didn't like.
她的生活实际上与《小妇人》的后半部分背道而驰，这是她不喜欢的部分。
She didn't get married, and she's independent.
她没有结婚，很独立。
She runs her own practice as a therapist and social worker.
她以治疗师和社会工作者的身份经营自己的诊所。
She specifically works with people who suffer from trauma, because she understands it so well herself.
她专门与遭受创伤的人一起工作，因为她自己对此非常了解。
But sometimes, she still returns to Little Women.
但有时，她还是会回到《小妇人》中。
Well, it comes up in different situations.
嗯，它会在不同的情况下出现。
I'll be like, OK, so-- the other day, I actually-- this is funny.
我会说，好吧，所以——前几天，我实际上——这很有趣。
My friend has twins.
我的朋友有双胞胎。
And she was telling me, like, god, I'm so tired, and they don't listen, and my husband is so busy.
她告诉我，天哪，我太累了，但他们不听，而我丈夫太忙了。
And I referred her to the chapter of Meg trying to discipline her twins.
我让她参考梅格试图管教她的双胞胎的章节。
And I was like, read this.
我当时想，读这个。
This will help you.
这会对你有所帮助。
[LAUGHING]
[笑]
Wait, are you constantly-- do your friends have a joke or, like, Oh, not another Little Women reference.
等等，你是不是经常——你的朋友有一个笑话，或者，比如，哦，不是另一个《小妇人》参考资料。
No, I think that they think it's funny that I like the book so much.
不，我认为他们认为我如此喜欢这本书很有趣。
But I don't think anyone really understands why.
但我认为没有人真正理解其中的原因。
Wait, so it's like your only frame of reference?
等等，所以这就像你唯一的参考系？
Yeah.
是的。
Elna Baker When she's having a hard time or making a decision, she asks the question, opens the book, and whatever passage she reads, it's her answer from the March sisters.
埃尔娜·贝克（Elna Baker） 当她遇到困难或做出决定时，她会提出问题，打开书，无论她读到什么段落，这都是马奇姐妹给她的答案。
And she also has this ritual.
而且她也有这个仪式。
So every year on my birthday, I find the corresponding age that I am for the chapter I am, and I read that.
所以每年我生日的时候，我都会找到我所在章节对应的年龄，然后我就会读到它。
In other words, chapter 30, when she turned 30; chapter 31, when she turned 31.
也就是说，第30章，她30岁的时候；第31章，当她31岁的时候。
To be like, so what is this life-- this year going to be about in my life?
比如说，今年我的生活会是什么样子？
What's it telling me?
它告诉我什么？
So it's almost like your magic eight ball?
所以这几乎就像你的神奇八号球一样？
What did you turn this year?
今年你转了什么？
Shamyla I'm 41.
沙米拉，我 41 岁。
And what chapter?
还有哪一章？
Shamyla Oh Amy-- it's called Learning to Forget.
Shamyla Oh Amy——这就是所谓的“学会忘记”。
It's when Laurie's trying to forget Jo, and he starts falling in love with Amy.
当劳里试图忘记乔时，他开始爱上艾米。
And how do you think that's going to relate to this year of be--
你认为这与今年有什么关系——
Maybe this year, finally someone's going to fall in love with me, [LAUGHING] the right one, not all the wrong ones.
也许今年，终于有人会爱上我，[笑]对的人，而不是全错的人。
There are 47 chapters in Little Women.
《小妇人》一共有47章。
In six years, she'll turn 48.
六年后，她就48岁了。
And she doesn't know what she'll do.
而且她不知道自己会做什么。
She says maybe she'll start from the beginning again.
她说也许她会重新开始。
And whereas the book used to be a way of escaping her room in Pakistan, now it's a way of returning to that world she built alone in her room.
虽然这本书曾经是她逃离巴基斯坦房间的一种方式，但现在这是一种回到她在房间里独自建造的世界的方式。
It's as if the March sisters are all still living there, and she's the one who left them behind.
就好像马奇姐妹还住在那里，而她就是把她们抛在身后的人。
Elna Baker is one of the producers of our show.
埃尔娜·贝克是我们节目的制片人之一。
Shamyla told a version of this story herself on the storytelling podcast "Risk," which tapes for a live audience.
沙米拉在讲故事播客“Risk”中亲自讲述了这个故事的一个版本，该播客为现场观众录制了录音。
You can hear that version and all those stories at risk-show.com.
您可以在risk-show.com 上听到该版本和所有这些故事。
Coming up, Wu Tang Is For The Children, children are the future.
即将推出，《武唐是为了孩子》，孩子就是未来。
So is Wu Tang the future?
那么武当是未来吗？
That's in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.
稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
This is "This American Life." I'm Ira Glass.
这就是《美国生活》。我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our show, of course, we choose a theme, bring you different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，我们的节目每周都会选择一个主题，为您带来有关该主题的不同类型的故事。
Today's show-- "The Weight of Words," stories about the words that people turn to for comfort or strength.
今天的节目——“言语的重量”，讲述人们为了寻求安慰或力量而求助的言语的故事。
We first aired this show in 2019.
我们于 2019 年首次播出该节目。
We've arrived at Act 2 of our show, Act 2-- Daddy Lessons.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕，第二幕——爸爸的教训。
So the most recent bit of serious parenting that my dad did with me-- and I say this, realizing that this really might be the very last life lesson he might give me; we are both getting up there in years-- was a protracted month-long campaign to switch from Excel to Quicken, to keep track of my personal finances.
所以我父亲最近对我所做的认真的养育——我这么说，意识到这可能真的是他给我的最后一课；我们都已经好几年了——从 Excel 切换到 Quicken 来跟踪我的个人财务状况，这是一场为期一个月的旷日持久的活动。
He felt very strongly about this.
他对此有非常强烈的感受。
And I just want to say, yes, the numbers add up the same, no matter what software you use.
我只想说，是的，无论你使用什么软件，数字加起来都是一样的。
But Quicken, I mean, don't get my dad started.
但是奎肯，我的意思是，别让我爸爸开始。
He's a retired CPA.
他是一名退休的注册会计师。
He had already trained me to save all my receipts.
他已经训练我保存所有收据。
Please, that's basic.
拜托，这是基本的。
And he went on with this at such length, that at some point, I realized, Oh, switching software was not a piece of friendly financial advice.
他继续说得很长，以至于在某个时候，我意识到，哦，转换软件并不是一个友好的财务建议。
This was actual parenting happening.
这是真实发生的育儿经历。
Not switching to Quicken meant an actual repudiation of him as a father.
不改用奎肯意味着实际上否认他作为一个父亲。
It would actually be a failure of parenthood.
这实际上是为人父母的失败。
Parents try to shape who we are in their own image so often.
父母常常试图按照自己的形象来塑造我们。
They make sure their kids are exposed to whatever-- modern art, sports, nature, science, theater, whatever they love.
他们确保他们的孩子接触到任何东西——现代艺术、体育、自然、科学、戏剧，以及他们喜欢的任何东西。
They train them to be the world's greatest tennis player or golfer, that kind of thing.
他们将他们训练成世界上最伟大的网球运动员或高尔夫球手之类的。
My friend Adam came up with a scheme like that.
我的朋友亚当想出了一个这样的计划。
This is Neil Drumming.
这是尼尔·鼓明。
His friend Adam is Adam Mansbach, a writer.
他的朋友亚当是亚当·曼斯巴赫，一位作家。
Adam is a DJ, a record collector, and he wanted his daughter Vivien to love music the way he loved music, exactly the way he loved music.
Adam 是一名 DJ、唱片收藏家，他希望他的女儿 Vivien 能够像他热爱音乐一样热爱音乐，就像他热爱音乐一样。
One of the things I feel like I got right about parenting is that I never played Viv any kids music.
我觉得我在养育孩子方面做得对的一件事是我从来没有给 Viv 播放过任何儿童音乐。
Because I understood that any song that you played a two-year-old, a three-year-old, might become their favorite song, and then you would have to listen to it 20 times a day.
因为我明白，任何一首你给两岁、三岁的孩子放的歌，都可能成为他们最喜欢的歌，然后你就得每天听20遍。
So I never played her anything I wasn't willing to listen to 20 times a day.
所以我从来不给她放任何我不愿意每天听20遍的东西。
So she, from a very young age, was listening to a lot of music I liked.
所以她从很小的时候就听了很多我喜欢的音乐。
Is that a thing that you got right about parenting?
关于养育孩子，你的做法是对的吗？
Or is that a thing that you just did for yourself?
或者这只是你为自己做的事情？
I mean, [LAUGHING] I mean, aren't the two synonymous really, Neil?
我的意思是，[笑]我的意思是，这两个真的不是同义词吗，尼尔？
I'm not sure what the difference is.
我不确定有什么区别。
Adam likes '80s and '90s hip hop perhaps more than me, which is saying a lot.
Adam 可能比我更喜欢 80 年代和 90 年代的嘻哈音乐，这说明了很多问题。
Anyway, he fed Vivien a steady diet of classic material-- A Tribe Called Quest, Public Enemy, Run-DMC.
不管怎样，他给薇薇安提供了稳定的经典素材——《A Tribe Called Quest》、《Public Enemy》、《Run-DMC》。
Das EFX.
达斯 EFX。
There was probably a year, probably two years, where the Stetsasonic record In Full Gear got more play in our house than any other record.
可能有一年，可能有两年，Stetsasonic 唱片《In Full Gear》在我们家里的播放量比任何其他唱片都多。
We may be the only household in North America that can say that, that in the year 2014, we listened to In Full Gear more than any other album.
我们可能是北美唯一可以这么说的家庭，在 2014 年，我们听《In Full Gear》的次数比任何其他专辑都多。
Yeah, it came out in '88.
是的，88年就出来了。
Neil Drumming This exposure therapy approach to parenting has been known to fail.
尼尔·鼓明 这种暴露疗法的育儿方法众所周知是失败的。
I grew up surrounded by beds that were always made.
我从小就被铺好的床包围着。
But if you walked into my apartment now, you'd see no evidence of that.
但如果你现在走进我的公寓，你不会看到任何证据。
In Adam's case, though, it worked.
但在亚当的例子中，它奏效了。
He noticed that by the time she was six years old, Vivien could rap along to any hip hop song you played her.
他注意到，当薇薇安六岁的时候，她就能跟着你播放的任何嘻哈歌曲说唱了。
She would memorize it, and she would be very much in the pocket and just not missing a beat.
她会记住它，而且她会非常得心应手，不会错过任何一个节拍。
I remember one of the songs that we played a lot was The Choice is Yours," remixed by Black Sheep.
我记得我们经常播放的一首歌曲是 The Choice is Yours，”由 Black Sheep 重新混音。
I remember recording her just on my phone, doing the third verse of the song, the famous third verse of the song, Engine Engine Number 9.
我记得我就用手机给她录音，录制了这首歌的第三节，这首歌著名的第三节，Engine Engine Number 9。
If my train goes off the track, pick it up, pick it up, pick it up.
如果我的火车脱轨，捡起来，捡起来，捡起来。
Back on the seat, crispy and clean.
回到座位上，脆脆的，干净的。
You can try, but know what--
你可以尝试，但要知道——
And she had it perfectly down.
她完全把它放下了。
And it's not an easy verse to do.
这不是一首容易做的经文。
And I remember sending it to our friend Jay Period, who in turn sent it to Dres, from Black Sheep.
我记得把它发给了我们的朋友杰伊·珀斯特（Jay period），他又把它从 Black Sheep 发给了德雷斯（Dres）。
And he was like, Yo, this is incredible.
他说，哟，这太不可思议了。
Like, tell her-- give her my props.
就像，告诉她——给她我的道具。
And I was like, Yo, Viv, you're six, so this means nothing to you.
我当时想，哟，Viv，你已经六岁了，所以这对你来说毫无意义。
But Dres from Black Sheep said that you're dope.
但是《黑羊》里的德雷斯说你很傻。
This is his song.
这是他的歌。
[MUSIC - "THE CHOICE IS YOURS" BY BLACK SHEEP]
[音乐 - 黑羊的“选择是你的”]
(RAPPING) Engine, engine number 9, on the New York transit line, if my train goes off the track, pick it up, pick it up, pick it up.
（敲击声）发动机，9号发动机，在纽约公交线路上，如果我的火车脱轨，捡起来，捡起来，捡起来。
Come on.
来吧。
Like a lot of guys our age, Adam tried his hand at being a rapper when he was younger.
像我们这个年纪的许多人一样，亚当年轻时尝试成为一名说唱歌手。
He joined a group.
他加入了一个团体。
They made some songs that never quite went anywhere.
他们创作了一些从未有过任何进展的歌曲。
He stayed in the hip hop world, though.
但他仍然留在嘻哈世界。
He still has a lot of connections.
他还是有很多人脉的。
So he was thrilled to find out his daughter had some skills.
因此，他很高兴发现自己的女儿有一些技能。
And proud father that he is, he wanted more people to know.
他是一位自豪的父亲，他希望更多的人知道。
When another one of his entertainment industry buddies needed a theme song for a PBS Kids show he was making, called "Bug Bites," Adam jumped at the chance to write Vivien some original material.
当他的另一位娱乐界伙伴需要为他正在制作的 PBS Kids 节目创作一首名为“Bug Bites”的主题曲时，亚当抓住了这个机会，为薇薇安写了一些原创材料。
[MUSIC - "BUG BITES"] Vivien (RAPPING) Six legs, eight legs, fly and crawl.
[音乐 - “BUG BITES”] Vivien（RAPPING） 六条腿，八条腿，飞翔和爬行。
Let's get it, world, come one, come all.
让我们来吧，世界，都来吧，都来吧。
Bugs can teach us so much more about the world.
虫子可以让我们更多地了解这个世界。
Let's go explore!
我们去探索吧！
Some of these facts are incredible knowing, like bees keep flowers and vegetables growing.
其中一些事实令人难以置信，例如蜜蜂让花朵和蔬菜生长。
The show wound up not using the song.
该节目最终没有使用这首歌。
But Adam couldn't stop listening to it.
但亚当无法停止听它。
He walked around playing it over and over in his headphones.
他一边走一边用耳机一遍又一遍地播放这首歌。
I mean, I knew she was skilled.
我的意思是，我知道她很熟练。
But I sort of took it for granted.
但我有点认为这是理所当然的。
I was like, oh, that's just regular.
我当时想，哦，这只是正常现象。
Everybody can rhyme.
每个人都会押韵。
Everybody I know can rhyme, you know?
我认识的每个人都会押韵，你知道吗？
But I remember at that point being like, oh, you know what?
但我记得当时我就想，哦，你知道吗？
This is really unique.
这确实是独一无二的。
Did this change your expectations for what this could be?
这是否改变了您对这可能发生的事情的期望？
Yeah, I think it opened-- it opened it up and made me want to maybe want to do more and see where we could take this.
是的，我认为它打开了——它打开了它，让我想做更多，看看我们可以把它带到哪里。
And so they did.
他们也确实这么做了。
Vivien Step into my office and have a seat.
薇薇安走进我的办公室坐下。
He and Vivien would plan out songs during the winters in California and record with his music industry friends back East during the summers.
他和费雯丽会在加利福尼亚州的冬天计划歌曲，并在夏天与他的音乐界朋友一起回到东部录制歌曲。
Writing for Vivien, Adam would layer in little in-jokes they shared or references that he knew his daughter would appreciate.
亚当在为费雯丽写作时，会加入他们分享的小笑话或他知道女儿会欣赏的参考资料。
Like when she was into Percy Jackson, he'd weave in the Greek gods.
就像当她喜欢波西·杰克逊时，他会融入希腊诸神。
And when she was into Harry Potter, he worked that in.
当她迷上《哈利·波特》时，他也参与其中。
Yeah, I'm nice with my, like, Dumbledore, so what you want to rumble for?
是的，我对我的邓布利多很好，那么你想干嘛呢？
Vivien recorded under the moniker The Jazz Wolf, a name that she came up with.
薇薇安以“爵士狼”这个绰号录制唱片，这是她想出的名字。
Her first real taste of mainstream exposure came by way of a song that Adam, who's originally from Massachusetts, wrote for her to perform in a hometown Boston accent.
她第一次真正接触到主流是通过来自马萨诸塞州的亚当为她写的一首歌曲，并用家乡波士顿口音演唱。
[MUSIC PLAYING] Vivien (RAPPING) My name's Clarissa, I'm wicked pissah.
[音乐播放] Vivien（说唱）我叫克拉丽莎，我是邪恶的皮萨。
That girl Amber, I had to dis her.
那个女孩安布尔，我不得不抛弃她。
She opened up a powder keg.
她打开了一个火药桶。
You're speaking chowderhead.
你说的是杂烩菜。
I'm a hot target.
我是一个炙手可热的目标。
You work at Star Market.
你在星市场工作。
Nobody [INAUDIBLE].
没有人[听不清]。
They made a video for the song, which made it onto the home page of the popular humor website Funny or Die.
他们为这首歌制作了视频，并登上了流行幽默网站Funny or Die 的主页。
But "Much Lobstah" was more like a comedy bit than a banger, more DJ Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince than it was Eric B and Rakim.
但《Much Lobstah》更像是一部喜剧，而不是一首歌曲，更像是 DJ Jazzy Jeff 和 Fresh Prince，而不是 Eric B 和 Rakim。
Adam didn't feel the song was representative of how he imagined Vivien as an artist.
亚当不认为这首歌代表了他对费雯作为艺术家的想象。
It was a funny song, but it was a funny song.
这是一首有趣的歌，但它确实是一首有趣的歌。
It wasn't truly indicative of her skills as an emcee, because it was more focused on dropping Massachusetts-centric jokes.
这并不能真正体现她作为主持人的技能，因为它更侧重于讲以马萨诸塞州为中心的笑话。
(RAPPING) Eat a grinder, drink a beer.
（说唱）吃研磨机，喝啤酒。
Then I slap a critic.
然后我打了批评者一巴掌。
You're off the rails like Teddy was at Chappaquiddick.
你就像泰迪在查帕奎迪克那样偏离了轨道。
[BLAST]
[爆炸]
Adam had told me that his kid rapped early on.
亚当告诉我，他的孩子很早就开始说唱了。
But I didn't understand how serious the two of them were about this until September of 2017, when I received an email from Adam with no subject heading.
但直到 2017 年 9 月，我收到 Adam 发来的一封没有主题的电子邮件时，我才明白他们两个对此有多认真。
Attached to the email were two remarkably well-produced songs, described in the body of the email simply as, Jazz Wolf Heat Rocks.
电子邮件中附有两首制作精良的歌曲，在电子邮件正文中简单描述为“Jazz Wolf Heat Rocks”。
One of these so-called Heat Rocks featured Vivien, who I had met once only briefly, but knew to be a small, blond White girl, rapping over a fluttery dancehall rhythm in full-on Jamaican patois.
其中一首所谓的“热摇滚”以薇薇安为主角，我只见过她一次，但我知道她是一个金发碧眼的白人小女孩，用地道的牙买加方言在轻快的舞厅节奏中说唱。
[MUSIC PLAYING] Vivien (RAPPING) Jazz Wolf for better rhyme, sound girl better rhyme, get your gun, where you come, fire bun, get it done.
[音乐播放] Vivien（说唱）爵士狼为了更好的韵律，声音女孩更好的韵律，拿起你的枪，你来的地方，火包子，完成它。
Should we test it?
我们应该测试一下吗？
None.
没有。
We are [INAUDIBLE].
我们[听不清]。
Champion.
冠军。
A champion.
冠军。
Swim over land and walk the ocean.
在陆地上游泳，在海洋上行走。
Sound girl, we take apart in slow motion.
健全的女孩，我们以慢动作分开。
Did listening to this reggae song, penned by a best-selling Jewish author for his nine-year-old and most likely, recorded in or near his house on Martha's Vineyard, make me feel uncomfortable?
听这首由一位畅销犹太作家为他九岁的孩子创作的雷鬼歌曲，很可能是在他位于玛莎葡萄园岛的家中或附近录制的，会让我感到不舒服吗？
Yeah, sure, a little.
是的，当然，有一点。
But I've been listening to hip hop a long time.
但我听嘻哈音乐已经很长时间了。
And between all the sampling and biting and flipping styles, I've kind of made my peace with cultural appropriation.
在所有的采样、咬和翻转的风格之间，我已经与文化挪用达成了和解。
All I ask is that you give credit where credit is due and that you do your due diligence.
我所要求的只是你在应得的信用处给予信用，并尽职调查。
You know, Neil, I should say that I had some misgivings about the song.
你知道，尼尔，我应该说我对这首歌有些疑虑。
I definitely-- really, the first thing I did was send it to every Jamaican I knew.
我确实——真的，我做的第一件事就是把它发送给我认识的每一个牙买加人。
[LAUGHTER] I'd be like, yo, so what do you think about this?
[笑声] 我会说，哟，你对此有何看法？
Anyway, the point is, it wasn't just me and some Caribbean Islanders who got this email.
不管怎样，重点是，收到这封电子邮件的不仅仅是我和一些加勒比岛民。
Adam was stepping up Vivien's game and had sent the Jazz Wolf de facto demo to just about every music industry contact he had.
Adam 正在加强 Vivien 的游戏，并将 Jazz Wolf 事实上的演示发送给他所接触的几乎所有音乐行业联系人。
To a certain degree, it worked.
在某种程度上，它起作用了。
Friends praised his daughter's music.
朋友们称赞他女儿的音乐。
Artists who Adam admired wanted to record with her.
亚当欣赏的艺术家想和她一起录音。
A big player in the music industry who had a hand in discovering Lauryn Hill suggested that they record more songs for a legitimate demo.
一位参与发现 Lauryn Hill 的音乐界大玩家建议他们录制更多歌曲以制作合法的演示版。
Bolstered by all this interest, Adam set out to write Vivien something really special.
在所有这些兴趣的支持下，亚当开始为薇薇安写一些非常特别的东西。
It was the kind of thing he'd have written for himself back in his rapping days-- multi-syllabic, rapid fire, a real showpiece, designed to take the Jazz Wolf all the way to the next level.
这是他在说唱时代为自己写的东西——多音节、快速、真正的展示品，旨在将爵士狼一路提升到一个新的水平。
He was on a business trip, when the ghost writer in him really took over.
当他出差时，他体内的代笔作家真正接管了。
And I remember I had to go away for a week.
我记得我不得不离开一周。
I was in Chicago, doing some stuff.
我当时在芝加哥，做一些事情。
And I writing bars for her.
我为她写酒吧。
And I was really trying to write the most complicated, difficult verses I could.
我真的很想写出我能写的最复杂、最困难的诗句。
Because I knew she could handle it, and I was like, this is going to be really fun.
因为我知道她可以应付，而且我想，这会非常有趣。
And I came back with the song.
我带着这首歌回来了。
And we rehearsed it for a long time.
我们排练了很长时间。
We got a beat from Dug Infinite, an illustrious producer, who worked with Common and all kinds of people.
我们得到了著名制作人 Dug Infinite 的启发，他与 Common 和各种各样的人合作过。
And Viv had been practicing it for weeks.
薇芙已经练习了好几个星期了。
And we had plans to go to his house and record it.
我们计划去他家录制。
She was nine at the time, I remember, because the chorus of the song played with the fact that she was nine.
我记得她当时九岁，因为这首歌的副歌部分反映了她九岁的事实。
We flipped the chorus from nine millimeter goes bang.
我们将副歌部分从九毫米的“爆炸”翻转过来。
And it was like, wa da da dang, wa da da da dang.
就像，哇达达当，哇达达达当。
Hey, listen, 'cause I'm nine, and I kick enough slang.
嘿，听着，因为我九岁了，我已经学会了足够多的俚语了。
But despite all Adam's craft in preparation, there was an unforeseen, but not unforeseeable issue with the talent.
但是，尽管亚当准备了所有的技巧，但他的天赋仍然存在一个不可预见但并非不可预见的问题。
She hadn't slept that night.
那天晚上她没有睡觉。
I think we had a new baby.
我想我们有了一个新宝宝。
Viv has two younger sisters, and the older of the two at that time was only a few months old and was up, crying.
维芙有两个妹妹，两个妹妹当时只有几个月大，站起来哭了起来。
And so Viv was on no sleep.
所以薇芙一直没有睡觉。
And I remember we got to the studio really early.
我记得我们很早就到了工作室。
And she was just exhausted and not really at her peak.
而且她只是精疲力竭，还没有真正达到巅峰状态。
And it was difficult for her to get it down.
而她却很难把它记下来。
And we kind of called it.
我们称之为。
We cut it short.
我们把它缩短了。
I was like, you know what?
我当时想，你知道吗？
Let's come back another day, Dug, because this isn't it.
让我们改天再来吧，达格，因为现在不是这样。
No, I'm sorry.
不，对不起。
I didn't mean to be like that.
我不是故意的。
Nah, are you kidding me?
不，你在开玩笑吗？
It's not your fault.
这不是你的错。
That's Vivien.
那是维维安。
She was in the studio with her dad during this interview.
接受采访时，她和父亲在录音室里。
She's 11 now.
她现在11岁了。
Right, so I remember coming back from there.
是的，所以我记得从那里回来的。
And Viv was tired.
薇芙也累了。
And in the car, she told me.
在车上，她告诉我。
She was like, Papa, you know, I'm just not that into this right now, something along those lines.
她说，爸爸，你知道，我现在不太喜欢这个，类似的事情。
Like, I'm not into you writing me these rap songs right now.
就像，我现在不喜欢你给我写这些说唱歌曲。
Vivian, do you remember this moment at all, this night?
薇薇安，你还记得今晚的这一刻吗？
I did.
我做到了。
And I think that the reason I told him then was that-- this is going to sound really stupid.
我认为我当时告诉他的原因是——这听起来真的很愚蠢。
But I thought that because-- I think he would be less angry if he knew I was tired and didn't want to argue.
但我这么认为是因为——我想如果他知道我累了并且不想争论的话，他就会不那么生气了。
So you had already come to this decision?
所以你已经做出这个决定了？
Yeah.
是的。
I mean, we hadn't talked about it, but I'd already gone through it in my head what I was trying to say.
我的意思是，我们还没有讨论过这个问题，但我已经在脑子里想好了我想说的话。
OK, let's back up a bit.
好吧，让我们备份一下。
Vivien's dissatisfaction with how Adam was steeling her rap career goes back long before this night, back many car rides, in fact.
薇薇安对亚当如何巩固她的说唱事业的不满可以追溯到今晚之前，事实上，可以追溯到很多次开车旅行。
She recalls trying to listen to new music while riding with her dad.
她回忆起和父亲一起骑车时尝试听新音乐的经历。
Just flipping through radio stations in the car and him turning on a radio station, and I was like, oh yeah, this one.
只是在车里翻阅广播电台，然后他打开了一个广播电台，我就想，哦，是的，就是这个。
He's like, Oh, that's hot trash.
他就像，哦，那是热垃圾。
We're not listening to that.
我们不听这个。
You see, Adam didn't realize this, but even while she'd been sharing his love of hip hop, Vivien had been developing her own taste.
你看，亚当没有意识到这一点，但即使在她分享他对嘻哈音乐的热爱时，薇薇安也一直在发展自己的品味。
She'd started to enjoy more contemporary music, God forbid, even pop music-- Taylor Swift, and later, Kesha and Nicki Minaj and Cardi B.
她开始喜欢更多的当代音乐，上帝保佑，甚至是流行音乐——泰勒·斯威夫特，后来是凯莎、妮琪·米娜和卡迪·B。
But she'd been listening to music through Adam's ears long enough to understand and internalize just how much he wouldn't approve.
但她通过亚当的耳朵听音乐已经足够长的时间了，足以理解并内化他有多么不赞成。
So you felt like there were things that you liked that you couldn't tell him about?
所以你觉得有些你喜欢的事情不能告诉他？
No. Well, there were things that I liked that I could tell him about, but that I didn't feel like there was any point to telling him about, because he would tell me all the errors.
不。嗯，有些事情我喜欢可以告诉他，但我觉得没有必要告诉他，因为他会告诉我所有的错误。
And I would be like, yo, like, listen to this person's voice.
我会想，哟，听听这个人的声音。
Or like, this song is so good; and play it.
或者说，这首歌太好听了；并播放它。
And then afterward, Papa would be like, you want to hear something good?
然后，爸爸就会说，你想听点好听的吗？
And run into where he keeps his records, and I'm like, oh, gosh.
然后跑到他保存记录的地方，我就想，哦，天哪。
Uh, one time, I was playing him a song from Hamilton, where someone was rapping really fast.
呃，有一次，我给他放了一首汉密尔顿的歌，里面有人说唱得很快。
And I played it, and he just half listened.
我演奏了它，他只听了一半。
And then afterward, he's like, you want to hear really fast rapping?
然后他说，你想听非常快的说唱吗？
What did you play her, Adam?
亚当，你扮演了她什么角色？
Adam Mansbach Well, all right.
亚当·曼斯巴赫 好吧，好吧。
Let me back up for a second.
让我备份一下。
Sorry, Papa.
对不起，爸爸。
Adam Mansbach At the risk of getting on my soapbox and with the full understanding, this is never going to make it actually into this piece, my thing with Hamilton was like, cool.
亚当·曼斯巴赫（Adam Mansbach）冒着上演肥皂剧的风险，在充分理解的情况下，这永远不会真正进入这篇文章，我和汉密尔顿的事情就像，很酷。
Hamilton is fine.
汉密尔顿很好。
My issue with it is that a billion people who have no interest--
我的问题是，十亿人没有兴趣——
Here, Adam's critique of Hamilton, while spirited, is mostly remarkable, in that he somehow manages to vehemently object to the musical's popularity while simultaneously namedropping his friendship with one of its former stars, Daveed Diggs.
在这里，亚当对汉密尔顿的批评虽然激烈，但也很引人注目，因为他以某种方式强烈反对这部音乐剧的受欢迎，同时提及他与其中一位前明星戴维德·迪格斯的友谊。
Vivien didn't just want to feel free to listen to Hamilton in the car on the way to school.
薇薇安不仅仅是想在去学校的路上随意地在车里听汉密尔顿的讲话。
She wanted to incorporate all of her newfound influences into her own music.
她想将所有新发现的影响融入到自己的音乐中。
I felt like-- I mean, it's really cool that I'm doing all Papa's cool stuff.
我觉得——我的意思是，我正在做爸爸所有很酷的事情，这真的很酷。
But if I have this voice, and I have access to this recording, can't I use it to do things that are more my style?
但如果我有这个声音，并且我可以访问这个录音，我不能用它来做更符合我风格的事情吗？
It's not all that surprising that someone Vivien's age would eventually diverge from the path her father set her on when she was six.
薇薇安这个年纪的人最终会偏离她父亲在她六岁时为她设定的道路，这并不奇怪。
And this wasn't even the first time Vivien had stood up to her dad.
这甚至不是薇薇安第一次反抗她的父亲。
She's usually pretty outspoken.
她平时很直言不讳。
But she told me this time was different, that she had been more scared than usual to speak her mind and that it took her months to work up the courage.
但她告诉我，这次不同，她比平时更害怕说出自己的想法，她花了几个月的时间才鼓起勇气。
She was right to be concerned.
她的担心是对的。
Adam took it noticeably hard.
亚当明显感到很难受。
To hear him tell it, he interpreted this slight rejection as a sort of referendum on his parenting.
听他说，他将这种轻微的拒绝解释为对他的养育方式的一种全民公投。
I felt a certain kind of sadness on a couple of levels-- first, disappointment in myself for getting carried away and making her feel uncomfortable or making her feel like an unwilling participant in this project.
我在几个层面上感受到了某种悲伤——首先，我对自己感到失望，因为我自己得意忘形，让她感到不舒服，或者让她觉得自己是这个项目的不情愿的参与者。
And also, just a sense of letdown that wow, maybe we were no longer going to be hanging out after dinner, playing instrumentals, and fitting rhymes to them, and practicing, and rehearsing, and cutting scratch demos, and that kind of thing.
而且，只是一种失望感，哇，也许我们不再会在晚饭后闲逛，演奏乐器，为它们编韵，练习，排练，剪辑临时演示，诸如此类的事情。
Because it was something that brought me a lot of joy, both reveling in her skill, but really more than anything, just spending time together, and that feeling of collaboration-- which is wonderful when you find it with anybody.
因为这给我带来了很多快乐，双方都陶醉于她的技巧，但最重要的是，只是花时间在一起，以及那种合作的感觉——当你发现与任何人在一起时，这种感觉真是太棒了。
But when you find it with your own kid, it's magical.
但当你和自己的孩子一起发现它时，它是神奇的。
I mean, this is me, like armchair psychotherapist.
我的意思是，这就是我，就像坐在扶手椅上的心理治疗师。
But was there any part of you that was deflecting some energy into this in a way that maybe was more for you than for Vivien?
但你身上是否有任何一部分正在将一些能量转移到这件事上，这种方式可能对你比对薇薇安更有利？
That's a great question.
这是一个很好的问题。
I mean, the whole period of time that we're talking about is fairly tumultuous.
我的意思是，我们正在谈论的整个时期相当动荡。
I mean, from when Viv was six until now--
我是说，从 Viv 六岁到现在——
Five years.
五年了。
Adam Mansbach Five years-- I mean, that's a period of time that covers her mom and I splitting up.
亚当·曼斯巴赫 五年——我的意思是，那是我和她妈妈分手的一段时间。
It covers a new relationship, two new babies.
它涵盖了一段新的关系、两个新婴儿。
So yeah, you probably have a point there, I mean, at least in the sense of this being something that was purely fun and exciting and didn't feel heavy in any way.
所以，是的，你可能说得有道理，我的意思是，至少从某种意义上说，这是一件纯粹有趣和令人兴奋的事情，并且在任何方面都不会感到沉重。
They never did finish that song.
他们从未完成那首歌。
Adam and Vivien's magical collaboration was not infinitely sustainable.
亚当和薇薇安的魔法合作并不是无限可持续的。
But so what?
但那又怎样呢？
When everything was happening in our family, also, it was a way for me to connect with Papa.
当我们家里发生一切事情时，这也是我与爸爸联系的一种方式。
And also, after we'd had a lot of fun kicking rhymes, we could talk about the more important stuff.
而且，在我们玩得很开心之后，我们可以讨论更重要的事情。
He could be like, how do you feel?
他可能会问，你感觉怎么样？
How about the new baby?
新来的宝宝怎么样了？
And I feel like it just-- I would be a lot less close with Papa now if we hadn't spent so much time together doing that.
我觉得如果我们没有花那么多时间在一起做这件事，我现在和爸爸的关系就会少很多。
I wouldn't be coming into your room and be like, let's talk about this.
我不会走进你的房间说，我们来谈谈这个吧。
Yeah.
是的。
Adam Mansbach That makes me happy.
亚当·曼斯巴赫 这让我很高兴。
I'm glad to hear that.
我很高兴听到这个消息。
Recently, Vivien has been getting more into singing.
最近，费雯丽更加热衷于唱歌。
She writes her own poems and adapts them into songs.
她自己写诗并将其改编成歌曲。
She's written a few, and she thinks she could be good at it with a little time a little help.
她已经写了一些，她认为只要花点时间和一点帮助，她就能做好。
I wouldn't say that I totally want Papa to be out of my career.
我不会说我完全希望爸爸退出我的职业生涯。
As a singer, he's super supportive.
作为一名歌手，他非常支持。
And he's obviously the one with all the connections.
而且他显然是拥有所有联系的人。
But--
但是——
[LAUGHTER] Neil Drumming Practical-- that was very practical of you.
[笑声] 尼尔打鼓很实用——你太实用了。
That's smart.
这很聪明。
Yes.
是的。
[LAUGHING] It's was very cold-blooded right there.
[笑]那里非常冷血。
I'm a father myself.
我自己也是一名父亲。
It's a new thing, so new, In fact, that all I can say definitively about the experience so far is that I am terrified every single day about what's coming.
这是一个新事物，太新了，事实上，到目前为止，我能明确地说的是，我每天都对即将发生的事情感到恐惧。
I look around to my friends, as scared people do.
我环顾四周，看看我的朋友们，就像害怕的人一样。
And the thing that Adam pulled off gives me some hope.
亚当完成的事情给了我一些希望。
He found an easy way to be with his daughter through difficult times.
他找到了一种轻松的方式来陪伴女儿度过困难时期。
He constructed something fun that they could share, no matter what else was swirling around them.
他创造了一些有趣的东西，让他们可以分享，无论他们周围有什么。
And the outcome was perhaps the best one that any parent can imagine-- Vivien got it.
结果也许是所有父母能想象到的最好的结果——费雯得到了它。
At least for a little while, she was right there with him.
至少有一段时间，她就在他身边。
What do you guys remember?
大家还记得什么？
Do you guys remember-- does anyone remember the super complicated song?
你们还记得吗——还有人记得那首超级复杂的歌曲吗？
I remember only the second verse, though.
不过我只记得第二节。
Oh, do it.
哦，做吧。
Vivien Wait.
薇薇安等等。
Let me just do it in my head for a second.
让我在脑子里想一下。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Vivien You want me to do it now, Poppy?
薇薇安 你想让我现在就做吗，波比？
Yeah, do it.
是的，做吧。
Vivien (RAPPING) [INAUDIBLE] solemnly swear to scar you horribly.
薇薇安（敲击声）[听不清]庄严发誓要给你留下可怕的疤痕。
Destiny calling me.
命运在召唤我。
Honestly rappers a bloodily body.
老实说说唱歌手血淋淋的身体。
They're haunting me.
他们困扰着我。
But they can't do much harm to me.
但他们不能对我造成太大伤害。
I'm open like a pharmacy.
我像药店一样开门。
Karmically, I'm untouchable, highly combustible.
从业力上来说，我是不可触碰的，非常易燃的。
I can't remember the rest right now.
其余的我现在记不清了。
[LAUGHTER] Adam Mansbach The Jazz Wolf is back.
[笑声] 爵士狼亚当·曼斯巴赫回来了。
What?
什么？
I know a lot about small talk, because I worked in an office.
我对闲聊很了解，因为我在办公室工作。
And there's a lot of small talk that goes on.
还有很多闲聊。
There's all these different forms of it.
它有所有这些不同的形式。
There's water cooler small talk, and there's elevator small talk, which actually isn't even that bad.
有饮水机闲聊，还有电梯闲聊，实际上并没有那么糟糕。
Because most people think elevator small talk is the worst kind.
因为大多数人认为电梯闲聊是最糟糕的一种。
But actually, I think it's OK, because it's finite.
但实际上，我认为没关系，因为它是有限的。
You know it's going to end at a certain point--
你知道一切都会在某个时刻结束——
[LAUGHTER] --which I appreciate very much.
[笑声]——我非常欣赏。
And then there's even bathroom small talk where I work, which is the worst thing you're ever going to experience in your entire life.
在我工作的地方甚至还有卫生间闲聊，这是你一生中经历过的最糟糕的事情。
[LAUGHTER] They'll be people small-talking through the stalls.
[笑声]他们会在摊位上闲聊。
I actually have some audio of small talk to play for you.
实际上我有一些闲聊的音频可以给你播放。
Man Coffee is on its way.
曼咖啡正在路上。
Here is a special selection of the Viking blend.
这是精选的维京混合酒。
And I have to get back to work.
我必须回去工作。
So that's what happened in my office.
这就是我办公室里发生的事情。
Almost every day, that seems to happen, actually.
实际上，几乎每天都会发生这种情况。
We know we're drinking coffee.
我们知道我们正在喝咖啡。
It's being made.
它正在制作中。
But for some reason, when you do small talk, when you're caught in the trap of small talk, you feel you just had to talk about what's immediately happening in front of you, even though it's so obvious.
但出于某种原因，当你闲聊时，当你陷入闲聊的陷阱时，你觉得你只需要谈论眼前发生的事情，尽管它是如此明显。
And it's not even his fault.
这甚至不是他的错。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
It just-- everyone does it.
只是——每个人都这样做。
[LAUGHTER] And so I can't take it anymore.
[笑声] 所以我再也受不了了。
So I devised The Rundown to eliminate small talk forever from the world.
所以我设计了《The Rundown》来永远消除世界上的闲聊。
I want it to be done with.
我想让它完成。
The Rundown is what it's supposed to do.
Rundown 就是它应该做的。
The goal Of the Rundown is it's supposed to turn conversations from the conversations you're supposed to be having to the conversations you want to be having.
《纲要》的目标是将对话从您应该进行的对话转变为您想要进行的对话。
OK?
好的？
And so I also have an example of The Rundown.
所以我还有一个《The Rundown》的例子。
I went to a movie.
我去看电影了。
And there was a ticket guy selling tickets.
还有一个售票员在卖票。
And I just started talking to him.
我刚刚开始和他说话。
So it can be done on anyone.
所以它可以对任何人进行。
The $0.25 ones or did you pay-- or the fancy ones?
0.25 美元的还是你付钱的——还是花哨的？
I didn't pay for them.
我没有付钱给他们。
My girlfriend bought them.
我女朋友买的。
OK, and so you're thinking small talk.
好的，所以你正在考虑闲聊。
You're going to go after the ramen noodles, right?
你要去吃拉面，对吧？
Like, what kind of ramen noodles?
比如，什么样的拉面？
What hot water, meat?
什么热水，肉？
Something like that-- but if you're doing The Rundown, you just seize on the most interesting part of the conversation, OK?
类似的事情——但如果你在做《The Rundown》，你就抓住谈话中最有趣的部分，好吗？
And so he did give me a very, very valuable clue.
所以他确实给了我一个非常非常有价值的线索。
He gave me this girlfriend, wonderful girlfriend, character to work with, OK?
他给了我这个女朋友，很棒的女朋友，有性格的合作伙伴，好吗？
From that, you can proceed to--
由此，您可以继续——
Oh, well, I think, yeah.
哦，好吧，我想，是的。
I am definitely in love.
我绝对恋爱了。
Starlee Kine OK, so that's a little bit more to go with, right?
Starlee Kine 好吧，那还需要多一点，对吧？
Now we know he's capable of love--
现在我们知道他有能力去爱——
[LAUGHTER] --which is a lot more than knowing that he just had ramen noodles, right?
[笑声]——这不仅仅是知道他只吃了拉面，对吧？
And from there, OK, the possibilities just open up wide.
从那时起，好吧，可能性就变得广阔了。
You can pretty much go for anything now.
现在你几乎可以做任何事了。
So then you just keep going.
那么你就继续吧。
Starlee Kine How many one-night stands have you had?
Starlee Kine 你有过多少次一夜情？
Uh, well, I don't-- I know how many girls I've been with, but I don't-- I never really counted which of them are one-night stands exactly.
呃，好吧，我不知道我和多少个女孩交往过，但我从来没有真正统计过她们中哪些是一夜情。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Estimate-- roughly, probably four or five.
估计——大概是四五个。
[LAUGHTER] Starlee Kine OK, so you might think, how many virgins, is an inappropriate question.
[笑声] Starlee Kine 好吧，所以你可能会想，有多少处女，是一个不恰当的问题。
But I actually think it's the perfect fallback, if you have nothing else to ask.
但我实际上认为，如果你没有其他问题要问的话，这是一个完美的后备方案。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
Because--
因为——
[LAUGHTER] --as you can see, it's totally OK.
[笑声]——如你所见，完全没问题。
He doesn't mind telling you.
他不介意告诉你。
People are just wait-- they love to talk about themselves, you know?
人们只是等待——他们喜欢谈论自己，你知道吗？
And that's what people want.
这就是人们想要的。
And they also like to be asked questions that they have answers for.
他们也喜欢被问到他们有答案的问题。
He completely knows the answer to, how many virgins?
他完全知道答案，有多少处女？
So then they feel good about themselves.
所以他们自我感觉良好。
And they'll keep going.
他们会继续前进。
And from there, it's pretty smooth sailing.
从那里开始，一切都很顺利。
The first one that came along was for 2 and 1/2 years.
第一个出现的时间是 2又 1/2 年。
Really?
真的吗？
Man That was the first girl I was ever with, though.
伙计，那是我遇到的第一个女孩。
That was?
那是？
Man She was a virgin, too.
男人她也是处女。
We were both virgins.
我们都是处女。
It was good, you know, but it was weird.
你知道，这很好，但很奇怪。
It was kind of like an all day, all-around-town sort of thing.
这有点像全城的一整天的事情。
Because it started at her grandparents' house, which is in this all yellow room.
因为事情是从她祖父母家开始的，就在这个全黄色的房间里。
The sheets were yellow.
床单是黄色的。
The window curtains were yellow.
窗帘是黄色的。
And then it just wasn't working out.
然后它就没有成功。
So then we drove out to this spot by a drive-in movie screen that was abandoned.
然后我们就开车经过一个废弃的汽车电影院来到了这个地方。
But it was a good experience altogether.
但这总体来说是一次很好的经历。
I enjoyed it.
我很享受。
So that was a minute and 26 seconds.
那是 1 分 26 秒。
And now, after a minute and 26, through The Rundown, I know what he's had for breakfast, that he's capable of love, how many girls he slept with, how many of them were virgins, who he lost his-- first lost his virginity to, and even the color wallpaper of her grandmother's house.
现在，一分零二十六分，通过《The Rundown》，我知道他早餐吃了什么，他有能力去爱，他睡过多少个女孩，其中有多少是处女，他失去了他的——第一次失去了他的童贞，甚至还知道了她祖母房子的彩色壁纸。
So that's pretty good.
所以这非常好。
That's a pretty successful Rundown.
这是一个相当成功的纲要。
And there's a few simple rules for everyone to be able to do it just like this eventually.
有一些简单的规则让每个人最终都能做到这一点。
So the first rule is, number one, small talk is a conversation you're supposed to be having.
所以第一条规则是，第一，闲聊是你应该进行的对话。
And The Rundown is a conversation you want to be having.
The Rundown 是您想要进行的对话。
Right?
正确的？
Number two is, why chew the fat, when you can chew the meat?
第二个问题是，当你可以咀嚼肉时，为什么还要咀嚼脂肪呢？
OK?
好的？
[LAUGHTER] Also very important.
[笑声]也非常重要。
Number three is, if you can think it, you can ask it.
第三，如果你能想到，你就能问。
[LAUGHTER] OK?
[笑声] 好吧？
And then, if all else fails, or even if all else doesn't fail, number four is, how many virgins?
然后，如果其他一切都失败了，或者即使其他一切都没有失败，第四个问题是，有多少处女？
Starlee Kine, speaking at The Little Gray Book Lectures, at the Galapagos Art Space, in New York.
斯塔莉·凯恩 (Starlee Kine) 在纽约加拉帕戈斯艺术空间举行的小灰书讲座上发表演讲。
She writes for the HBO Max TV series "Search Party.":
她为 HBO Max 电视剧《搜索党》撰稿：
[MUSIC - "IF IT WEREN'T FOR THE WORDS" BY EDITH FROST]
[音乐 - 伊迪丝·弗罗斯特的《如果不是为了文字》]
(SINGING) I'd be writing all day, if it weren't for the words.
（唱歌）如果没有文字，我会写一整天。
I'd find something to say, if it weren't for the words.
如果不是因为这些话，我会找到一些话要说。
It's the words that give me trouble.
这些话给我带来了麻烦。
I'd be all right if it weren't for the words.
如果不是因为这些话我就没事了。
Well, our program was produced today by Sean Cole, Bim Adewunmi, with help from Nadia Reiman.
今天我们的节目是由 Sean Cole、Bim Adewunmi 在 Nadia Reiman 的帮助下制作的。
The people who put together today's show include Elna Baker, Emanuele Berry, Ben Calhoun, Zoe Chace, Dana Chivvis, Whitney Dangerfield, Neil Drumming, Damien Grave, Jessica Lussenhop, Stowe Nelson, Katherine Rae Mondo, Ben Falen, Tracy Rowland, Alissa Shipp, Lilly Sullivan, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, and Nancy Updike.
今天节目的制作人包括 Elna Baker、Emanuele Berry、Ben Calhoun、Zoe Chace、Dana Chivvis、Whitney Dangerfield、Neil Drumming、Damien Grave、Jessica Lussenhop、Stowe Nelson、Katherine Rae Mondo、Ben Falen、Tracy Rowland、Alissa Shipp、Lilly Sullivan、Christopher Swetala、Matt Tierney 和 Nancy Updike。
Managing editor for today's show was Diane Wu.
今天节目的执行编辑是 Diane Wu。
Executive editor was David Kestenbaum; production help with today's rerun from Ari Saperstein and Chloee Weiner.
执行主编是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆 (David Kestenbaum)；阿里·萨珀斯坦 (Ari Saperstein) 和克洛伊·维纳 (Chloee Weiner) 为今天的重播提供了制作帮助。
Special thanks today to Judy Meltzer, Bishop Gene Robinson, Dr. Barry Holtz, Deborah Moore, Hamza Syed, Ahmed Ali Akbar, Zainab Shah, Khalid Latif, Hannah Jewel, Ben Zimmer, Karl Baker, and Tom Howell.
今天特别感谢 Judy Meltzer、Bishop Gene Robinson、Barry Holtz 博士、Deborah Moore、Hamza Syed、Ahmed Ali Akbar、Zainab Shah、Khalid Latif、Hannah Jewel、Ben Zimmer、Karl Baker 和 Tom Howell。
Our website-- ThisAmericanLife.org, where you can stream our archive of 700 episodes for absolutely free.
我们的网站 - ThisAmericanLife.org，您可以在其中完全免费地观看我们的 700 集档案。
Also, there's videos, lists of favorite shows, for your summer-long car rides, tons of other stuff there-- again, ThisAmericanLife.org.
此外，还有视频、最喜欢的节目列表、适合您夏季驾车旅行的内容，以及大量其他内容 - 同样，ThisAmericanLife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange Thanks, as always, to our program's confounder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。一如既往，感谢我们节目的创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
He just saw the film Cool Runnings last week, and he wondered, is that a documentary?
他上周刚看了电影《酷跑》，他想知道这是一部纪录片吗？
Really the first thing I did was send it to every Jamaican I knew and be like, Yo so what do you think about this
事实上，我做的第一件事就是将它发送给我认识的每个牙买加人，然后说，哟，你对此有何看法
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
[MUSIC - "IF IT WEREN'T FOR THE WORDS" BY EDITH FROST]
[音乐 - 伊迪丝·弗罗斯特的《如果不是为了文字》]
(SINGING) Yeah, yeah, I'd all right, if it weren't for the words.
（唱歌）是的，是的，如果不是因为这些话，我会没事的。
I'd be feeling just fine, if it weren't for the words.
如果没有这些话，我会感觉很好。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。