739: Sisters - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #739 | June 11, 2021 739: Sisters Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 739 集 | 2021 年 6 月 11 日 739：姐妹们注意：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
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Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
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Prologue: Prologue Bim Adewunmi From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
序言：序言 来自 WBEZ 芝加哥的 Bim Adewunmi，这就是《美国生活》。
I'm Bim Adewunmi, sitting in for Ira Glass.
我是 Bim Adewunmi，代理 Ira Glass。
Not too long ago, a few of us here on the show were talking about families, and how everybody has a role to play in theirs.
不久前，我们节目中的一些人正在谈论家庭，以及每个人如何在自己的家庭中发挥作用。
And whatever your role is, it sort of becomes your identity.
无论你的角色是什么，它都会成为你的身份。
Like, this one's insular and really into books, or that one's the sensitive one who's quick to anger, or the little one's the sweetheart-- that sort of thing.
比如，这个孩子比较孤僻，非常喜欢读书，或者那个孩子比较敏感，容易生气，或者这个小孩子是个甜心，诸如此类。
And the longer we talked about it, the more we began to notice a pattern.
我们谈论的时间越长，我们就越开始注意到一种模式。
Sisters, in particular, often have very specific, very pithy elevator pitches about themselves and each other-- like my colleague on the show, Emanuele Berry.
尤其是姐妹们，经常会对自己和彼此进行非常具体、非常简洁的电梯推销——就像我在节目中的同事埃马努埃莱·贝里(Emanuele Berry)一样。
OK, so I have three sisters.
好吧，我有三个姐妹。
My oldest sister is Danielle.
我的大姐姐是丹妮尔。
She's like, the rebel.
她就像一个叛逆者。
She's the sister who moved out when she was a teenager.
她是十几岁的时候就搬出去的妹妹。
Then, we have Elena.
然后，我们有埃琳娜。
And she's like-- I guess you could say like, the diva.
她就像——我想你可以说，天后。
[LAUGHS] Emanuele Berry And then my youngest sister, Keanna, who's sort of like, the-- wants to have fun all the time-- like, little like, wild.
[笑] Emanuele Berry 然后是我最小的妹妹 Keanna，她有点像——想要一直玩得开心——就像，有点像，狂野。
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Emanuele Berry But not like, too wild.
Emanuele Berry 但不喜欢，太狂野了。
[LAUGHS] I see.
[笑]我明白了。
Emanuele Berry She's fun.
埃马努埃莱·贝瑞 她很有趣。
She's the fun one, I guess.
我想她是个有趣的人。
And when it comes to Emanuele's role, she said this thing, partly being funny, but also sort of seriously.
当谈到伊曼纽尔的角色时，她这样说，部分是有趣的，但也有点严肃。
I'm the favorite.
我是最喜欢的。
Yeah, I'm the favorite sister.
是啊，我最喜欢的姐姐。
OK.
好的。
[LAUGHS] See, that's-- that's overconfident right there.
[笑]看，那是——那是过于自信了。
I was so sure that the story that my sisters tell about me is that I'm their favorite sister.
我确信我的姐妹们讲述的关于我的故事是我是她们最喜欢的妹妹。
Amazing.
惊人的。
Emanuele Berry Like, it is so clear to me that I am each of their favorite sister.
就像 Emanuele Berry 一样，我很清楚我是他们每个人最喜欢的妹妹。
OK, just checking.
好的，只是检查一下。
Emanuele Berry No, I know it sounds like, unbelievably cocky.
埃马努埃莱·贝里：不，我知道这听起来令人难以置信的自大。
But I really don't think it's coming from a place of cockiness so much as like, in terms of our personalities, I'm the personality that like, can be the favorite.
但我真的不认为这是来自于自大，就我们的个性而言，我是那种喜欢、可以成为最爱的人。
[LAUGHS] You know?
[笑]你知道吗？
Nothing you're saying is making it better.
你所说的一切都不会让它变得更好。
No, I say that 'cause I think I'm-- I'm like, the peacekeeper.
不，我这么说是因为我认为我是，我是，和平卫士。
So like, I'm the one that gets along easiest with each of my sisters.
所以说，我是和我的姐妹们相处得最好的一个。
Yeah.
是的。
You're like the character in the teen movie who's friends with the jocks, and the nerds, and the--
你就像青少年电影中的角色，与运动员、书呆子和——
Yes.
是的。
Bim Adewunmi --the hipsters, and the cool Black girls, and all that stuff.
Bim Adewunmi——嬉皮士、酷炫的黑人女孩，以及所有这些东西。
That's you?
是你吗？
Amazing.
惊人的。
OK, so Emanuele, I have to ask, in the interest of journalistic integrity--
好的，所以伊曼纽尔，为了新闻诚信，我必须问——
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
嗯嗯，嗯嗯。
Bim Adewunmi --would your sisters corroborate the very specific idea that you have, that you are their favorite?
Bim Adewunmi——你的姐妹们会证实你的这个非常具体的想法，即你是她们的最爱吗？
I mean, yeah, I-- [LAUGHS] I think?
我的意思是，是的，我——[笑]我想？
I mean, I thought, but then I called my sisters.
我的意思是，我想，但后来我打电话给我的姐妹们。
Yeah, like, is there a story that you tell about me, or is there like a, Emanuele is this sister?
是的，就像，你有一个关于我的故事吗，或者有一个，伊曼纽尔是这个姐妹吗？
Well, I'm always like, my sister Emanuele, who's like, super smart.
嗯，我总是觉得，我的妹妹伊曼纽尔，她超级聪明。
She has a super-cool job in New York.
她在纽约有一份超级酷的工作。
[LAUGHS] Danielle Berry It-- it does kind of come down to like-- this is so terrible, but Elena's the pretentious one, you're the ambitious one.
[笑]丹妮尔·贝瑞——这确实有点像——这太可怕了，但埃琳娜是一个自命不凡的人，而你是一个雄心勃勃的人。
Keanna's the one with the kid.
基安娜和孩子在一起。
[LAUGHS] I just always think of you as like, the family boss.
[笑]我一直认为你就像是家族的老大。
Like--
就像——
Mm.
嗯。
Danielle Berry I don't know.
丹妮尔·贝瑞 我不知道。
If we were a mob family, you would be the boss of this family.
如果我们是一个黑帮家庭，你就是这个家庭的老大。
[LAUGHS] So when I asked my sister Elena-- she's the second eldest, she's right before me-- what's the story she tells to describe me--
[笑]所以当我问我姐姐埃琳娜——她是第二大女儿，她就在我面前——她讲述的描述我的故事是什么——
The first one that popped up, [LAUGHS] and I'm just like, it's not that flattering, but it's--
第一个出现的，[笑]，我就想，这并不是那么讨人喜欢，但它是——
It's not that flattering?
这不是很讨人喜欢吗？
Elena Berry No, I mean-- it's just-- it was just the time that you punched me in the eye--
埃琳娜·贝瑞 不，我的意思是——只是——只是你打了我眼睛的那次——
[LAUGHS] Elena Berry --when we were like-- and you were like, four at the time, right?
[笑]埃琳娜·贝瑞——当我们就像——而你当时就像，四岁，对吧？
OK.
好的。
Elena Berry And we were playing Pocahontas.
埃琳娜·贝瑞（Elena Berry） 我们正在扮演风中奇缘。
Yeah.
是的。
Elena Berry And I was the older sibling, and so I was going to be Pocahontas.
埃琳娜·贝瑞（Elena Berry） 我是哥哥，所以我将成为风中奇缘。
You were younger than me.
你比我年轻。
I mean, I always was playing some random side character or boy, always.
我的意思是，我总是扮演一些随机的配角或男孩，总是。
And so you played her best friend.
所以你扮演了她最好的朋友。
And I just remember-- and we were in a tent, too, because we had set up a tent in the living room, you know?
我只记得——我们也在一个帐篷里，因为我们在客厅搭了一个帐篷，你知道吗？
And you were like, I want to be Pocahontas!
你说，我想成为风中奇缘！
And then you punched me in the eye.
然后你就打了我的眼睛。
Uh-huh, uh-huh.
嗯嗯，嗯嗯。
Bim Adewunmi --of the responses of your sisters-- so, punched in the face, ambitious, the boss of the family, Mafia-style.
Bim Adewunmi——你姐妹们的反应——所以，打脸，野心勃勃，家庭老大，黑手党风格。
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Bim Adewunmi It's amazing to me how different those things are from the favorite.
Bim Adewunmi 令我惊讶的是，这些东西与我最喜欢的东西有多么不同。
I asked them for the first thing they think of, OK?
我问他们首先想到的是什么，好吗？
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
Right, so-- wait, hang on-- so favorite is not supposed to be the first, it's one of the things they say?
是的，所以 - 等等，等等 - 所以最喜欢的不应该是第一个，这是他们说的事情之一？
I guess.
我猜。
Maybe it's just like, buried deeper than I anticipated in their like, minds, you know?
也许这就像在他们的头脑中比我预想的埋得更深，你知道吗？
This is amazing backpedaling, and I love that.
这是令人惊奇的倒退，我喜欢这样。
OK, so they didn't immediately say she was their favorite.
好吧，所以他们并没有立即说她是他们的最爱。
But she doesn't mind.
但她不介意。
Instead, what struck Emanuele in these conversations was how it seemed like they all were telling the same stories, but with different entrance points, like a low-stakes Rashomon.
相反，在这些对话中，让伊曼纽尔印象深刻的是，他们似乎都在讲述相同的故事，但切入点不同，就像低风险的罗生门一样。
I mean, Danielle's story, right, is about me being like the mob boss of the family, or that's the sort of like, role that she holds me in.
我的意思是，丹妮尔的故事，对吧，是关于我就像家里的黑帮老大，或者就是她让我扮演的那种角色。
And the story I tell about her is that she left when she was a teenager.
我讲的关于她的故事是她十几岁时就离开了。
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Emanuele Berry And it's weird, because they're sort of connected in this way, where like, her leaving as a teenager kind of resulted in me having to take up some of that space, and be maybe more of a boss, right?
埃马努埃莱·贝瑞（Emanuele Berry）这很奇怪，因为他们以这种方式联系在一起，就像，她在十几岁的时候离开，导致我不得不占据一些空间，也许更像是一个老板，对吧？
So it's sort of like action and consequences, like we're telling the same thing.
所以这有点像行动和后果，就像我们在说同样的事情。
And then with my sister Keanna, the story she tells about me when we talked more is about how when we were in high school together, I tried to kick her off the basketball team.
然后和我姐姐基安娜（Keanna）一起，当我们谈论得更多时，她告诉我的故事是我们一起上高中时，我如何试图将她踢出篮球队。
Hold on, that's a very casual way of saying something quite horrid.
等等，这是用一种非常随意的方式来表达一些非常可怕的事情。
You what?
你什么？
Is it, though?
是吗？
Is it horrid?
可怕吗？
I was the captain of the basketball team, and she wasn't taking it seriously.
我是篮球队的队长，她却没有认真对待这件事。
Explain.
解释。
Emanuele Berry She wasn't taking it seriously, and I was very serious about basketball.
埃马努埃莱·贝里（Emanuele Berry）：她并没有认真对待这件事，而我对篮球非常认真。
And she was just always goofing around, and she never wanted to run.
而她却总是无所事事，根本不想逃跑。
She'd always, all of a sudden, like, have a cramp.
她总是会突然间抽筋。
And she couldn't do the suicides.
她不能自杀。
I absolutely, 100%, love the air quotes.
我绝对，100%，喜欢空气报价。
They really add something to the storytelling.
他们确实为讲故事增添了一些东西。
And what's the story that you tell about her in relation to that?
你讲述的关于她的故事是什么？
We went to Puerto Rico together for spring break when I was in college my senior year.
我大学四年级时，我们一起去波多黎各过春假。
And she like, fell hard for this guy.
她喜欢上了这个男人。
And she kept like, disappearing, and I didn't know where she was.
她就这样消失了，我不知道她在哪里。
And we got in this huge fight where we were like, screaming drunk in the streets at each other.
我们陷入了一场激烈的争吵，我们就像喝醉了一样在街上互相尖叫。
And she's like, I'm an adult!
她说，我是成年人了！
And I'm like, I'm calling mom and dad!
我想，我打电话给爸爸妈妈！
[LAUGHTER] Yeah, but at its core, it's sort of about how Keanna is always about-- Keanna wants to have fun.
[笑声] 是的，但其核心是 Keanna 总是想玩得开心。
Like, at the end of the day, that's what it's about for her.
就像，归根结底，这就是她的意义。
Right, and you're sort of the fun marshal?
对了，你是个有趣的元帅吗？
A little bit, yeah.
一点点，是的。
I mean, I got to keep her in line.
我的意思是，我得让她遵守规矩。
I'm the boss, and like, Keanna's the wild one.
我是老板，基安娜是个狂野的人。
And we each sort of have like, these labels, right?
我们每个人都有这样的标签，对吧？
But they're also kind of outdated.
但它们也有点过时了。
Like, my sister Keanna is like, a mother.
就像，我的妹妹基安娜就像一个母亲。
And I don't think she can drink a half a glass of wine without passing out anymore-- like a very-- very different than Puerto Rico Keanna.
我认为她喝半杯酒不会再晕倒——就像一个与波多黎各基安娜非常非常不同的人。
Sure.
当然。
Emanuele Berry But you sort of like-- right?
Emanuele Berry 但你有点喜欢——对吧？
You get stuck with these roles from childhood.
你从小就被这些角色困住了。
Like, we're a weird ecosystem or something like that.
就像，我们是一个奇怪的生态系统或类似的东西。
And we all have a place.
我们都有一席之地。
So like, she's the fun one, so I can't be the fun one.
就像，她是有趣的人，所以我不能成为有趣的人。
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
Bim Adewunmi --in the alphabet.
Bim Adewunmi——字母表中的。
Even though you might make similar sounds, I feel like you're all such distinct letters.
尽管你们可能会发出相似的声音，但我觉得你们都是如此不同的字母。
Yeah.
是的。
Bim Adewunmi And each one has to kind of fit in.
Bim Adewunmi 每个人都必须融入其中。
Yeah, in this sort of like, world that we've created as sisters.
是的，在我们作为姐妹创造的这个世界里。
Unlike Emanuele, I only have one sister.
与埃马努埃莱不同，我只有一个妹妹。
But if I had to define myself-- like, if someone asked me about the foundational underpinning of my identity, among all the many things I could say-- that I think in paragraphs, or that I tend to cheerfulness over melancholy-- before all of that, the thing that I would say is that I'm Ade's little sister.
但如果我必须定义自己——比如，如果有人问我关于我身份的基本基础，在我能说的所有事情中——我在段落中思考，或者我倾向于快乐而不是忧郁——在这一切之前，我会说我是艾德的妹妹。
She's three years older than me, the kindest person I know, my best friend.
她比我大三岁，是我认识的最善良的人，也是我最好的朋友。
I love her like she's me.
我爱她就像她是我一样。
And when I was small, I wanted more than to be like her.
当我很小的时候，我想要的不仅仅是像她一样。
I kind of wanted to eat her up, just consume her.
我真想吃掉她，吃掉她。
I was obsessed with her, but like, in a healthy way.
我对她着迷，但是以一种健康的方式。
We created this dense, self-contained world together as kids.
当我们还是孩子的时候，我们一起创造了这个密集、独立的世界。
One example of it was Funky Funky Funky Radio, a radio station universe that we made up and recorded onto cassettes that we lost years ago.
其中一个例子是 Funky Funky Funky Radio，这是我们制作并录制到多年前丢失的磁带上的广播电台宇宙。
We did news, and current affairs, and human interest stories, and sports-- specifically horse racing, with a twist that in this world, the horses could talk, and they all had very different personalities.
我们做新闻、时事、人文故事和体育——特别是赛马，但在这个世界上，马会说话，而且它们都有非常不同的个性。
My sister was basically the station manager.
我姐姐基本上是站长。
She directed our work like she directed my life at that age.
她指导我们的工作就像指导我那个年纪的生活一样。
Funky Funky Funky Radio was completely for us.
Funky Funky Funky Radio 完全适合我们。
We'd play it back to ourselves, and give notes on what we could do better next time.
我们会自己回放，并记录下一次我们可以做得更好的地方。
Sometimes, we played it to our dad, but it wasn't for him.
有时，我们给爸爸演奏，但不是给他听的。
It was an exercise in sisterly world building.
这是建设姐妹世界的一次练习。
Being a younger sister is how I move through the world.
成为妹妹是我在这个世界上行走的方式。
I'm the second one, the younger one, the littler one.
我是第二个，年纪最小的一个。
I'm aware of all the cliches-- that they're annoying, attention hogs, the ones who get to mess up-- a whole box of behaviors.
我知道所有的陈词滥调——他们很烦人、霸占注意力、把事情搞砸——一整套行为。
Even so, with the noted exceptions of Amy March and Lydia Bennett, I reserve my biggest love for almost every literary or pop culture little sister-- Serena over Venus, Marianne Dashwood over Elinor, Sasha Obama over Malia.
即便如此，除了艾米·马奇和莉迪亚·贝内特之外，我对几乎所有文学或流行文化的小姐妹都保留了我最大的爱——塞雷娜而不是维纳斯，玛丽安·达什伍德而不是埃莉诺，萨莎·奥巴马而不是玛莉亚。
I'm the second of four, so that means I'm a big sister, too, to two brothers whom I love very much, Demola and Dapo.
我是四个孩子中的老二，所以这意味着我也是我非常爱的两个兄弟德莫拉和达波的姐姐。
But that fact, the fact that I am also two other people's older sister, is so secondary to that first, fundamental identity that I have.
但事实上，我也是另外两个人的姐姐，这一事实对于我所拥有的第一个基本身份来说是次要的。
I'm the little sister.
我是小妹妹。
Maybe it's because my sister knew me before I really knew myself.
也许是因为我姐姐在我真正了解自己之前就了解了我。
I got to meet my brothers when they arrived in this world.
当我的兄弟来到这个世界时，我见到了他们。
But Ade, she was already a fact.
但艾德，她已经是事实了。
She's the most constant thing in my life.
她是我生命中最不变的存在。
I've never known a world without her.
我从来不知道没有她的世界。
I can't imagine it, and I don't want to.
我无法想象，也不想想象。
Today's show is about that world that can exist between only sisters-- the worlds they build together, and the things that could knock those worlds off their axis.
今天的节目是关于只能存在于姐妹之间的世界——她们共同构建的世界，以及可能使这些世界脱离轴心的事物。
We have two stories today about the bonds between sisters, and how they get broken and fixed, or not.
今天我们有两个关于姐妹之间的纽带的故事，以及它们如何破裂和修复。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Sister Act One: Cindy and Dayana.
姐妹第一幕：辛迪和达亚娜。
We start today with sisters Cindy and Dayana Carcamo.
今天我们从辛迪·卡尔卡莫和达亚娜·卡尔卡莫姐妹开始。
They're close, but recently, they've been struggling with this thing that happened when they were very young.
他们很亲密，但最近，他们一直在为这件发生在他们很小的时候的事情而苦苦挣扎。
For the first part of their childhood, they didn't know each other at all.
在他们童年的最初阶段，他们根本不认识对方。
Here's Cindy.
这是辛迪。
My family is from Guatemala.
我的家人来自危地马拉。
My sister Dayana was born there.
我的妹妹达亚娜出生在那里。
She lived there for years, far away from me and my parents.
她在那里住了很多年，远离我和我的父母。
I was born in LA.
我出生在洛杉矶。
When we were little, Dayana believed that explained one difference between us.
当我们还小的时候，达亚娜相信这解释了我们之间的一个差异。
I thought you were very American-looking.
我以为你长得很像美国人。
What she means by American-looking is that I looked white.
她所说的美国人长相是指我看起来是白人。
At one point, I remember thinking that if you were born in China, you would look Chinese.
有一次，我记得我想，如果你出生在中国，你就会看起来像中国人。
And if you were born in America, you-- yeah, I remember thinking like that.
如果你出生在美国，你——是的，我记得你是这么想的。
So it could be that.
所以可能是这样。
You know, I thought she was-- she was born in the US, so she was very American-looking.
你知道，我以为她是——她出生在美国，所以她看起来很美国人。
And I was like, wow, she looks really different than the way I look.
我当时想，哇，她看起来和我看起来真的不一样。
In Guatemala, like a lot of places, whiter skin is considered prettier.
在危地马拉，和很多地方一样，皮肤越白被认为越漂亮。
My lighter skin became a thing for us growing up.
我的浅色皮肤成为我们成长过程中的一件事情。
Like, one time, a family friend, Ricardo, came to visit.
就像有一次，一位家庭朋友里卡多来拜访。
He looked like the famous '80s singer, El Puma.
他看起来像 80 年代著名歌手 El Puma。
So I remember him making a comment one time.
所以我记得他有一次发表过评论。
I remember exactly where we were.
我清楚地记得我们在哪里。
We were at the entry of the house.
我们在房子的入口处。
Yeah, and I remember him saying, oh, Cindy, you're-- you're so pretty.
是的，我记得他说，哦，辛迪，你——你真漂亮。
Oh, look at you.
哦，看看你。
And then I remember him telling me, oh your sister's so pretty.
然后我记得他告诉我，哦，你妹妹真漂亮。
Oh, it's a good thing you're smart.
哦，幸好你很聪明。
I'm glad you're smart.
我很高兴你很聪明。
And I was like-- I was like, yeah, I am smart.
我当时想，是的，我很聪明。
And I was like, OK, that's kind of odd.
我当时想，好吧，这有点奇怪。
But I knew-- I knew very well, though, why you were prettier than me.
但我知道——不过我很清楚，为什么你比我漂亮。
To me, she was always so beautiful and great, so quick-witted, so good at managing everything, at reading a room.
对我来说，她总是那么美丽、伟大、那么机智、那么擅长管理一切、擅长阅读房间。
She always knew what to say.
她总是知道该说什么。
For as long as I can remember, I wanted to be like her.
从我记事起，我就想成为像她一样的人。
She was the responsible one, I was a space cadet.
她是负责人，我是一名太空学员。
She was the neat one, I was the messy one.
她是整洁的，我是凌乱的。
At one point, she put tape down the middle of the bedroom and told me to keep my mess on my side.
有一次，她把胶带贴在卧室中间，并告诉我把脏乱的东西放在我这边。
All those things, I always thought that's just who she is, how she is-- rigidly organized, high achieving, her obsession with being perfect, always wanting to please.
所有这些，我一直认为这就是她是谁，她就是这样的——严格组织，成就斐然，她对完美的痴迷，总是想取悦别人。
But while we were talking, it dawned on me for the first time that I had it all wrong.
但当我们谈话时，我第一次意识到我完全错了。
A lot of those traits had to do with her being separated from our parents.
其中很多特征都与她与我们父母的分离有关。
(TEARING UP) No, because I didn't want to disappoint them.
（流泪）不，因为我不想让他们失望。
Yeah, I knew, you know, I had to be a good girl.
是的，我知道，你知道，我必须成为一个好女孩。
And I had to listen to-- I had to listen to whatever they said, and I had to impress them.
我必须倾听——我必须倾听他们所说的一切，我必须给他们留下深刻的印象。
Because I didn't want to be sent back.
因为我不想被送回去。
By sent back, she's talking about being sent to Guatemala.
她所说的被遣返，是指被送往危地马拉。
My mom and dad came to the US when Dayana was just a baby.
当达亚娜（Dayana）还是个婴儿时，我的父母就来到了美国。
My mom was a teenager.
我妈妈当时还是个十几岁的孩子。
They were crossing illegally, and she worried it was too dangerous to bring her.
他们非法越境，她担心带她去太危险了。
It seemed irresponsible.
这似乎是不负责任的。
So they left Dayana with her grandmother, Chita.
于是他们把达亚娜留给了她的祖母奇塔。
It was a cushy setup-- they had a housekeeper who basically waited on Dayana.
这是一个轻松的设置——他们有一个管家，基本上负责侍候达亚娜。
They lived in a nice neighborhood.
他们住在一个不错的社区。
And anyway, my parents assumed they'd be back for her soon.
不管怎样，我的父母认为他们很快就会回来找她。
She wouldn't end up joining them for years.
多年来她最终都不会加入他们。
It's only now that I'm beginning to put together a more complete picture of why that was, and how much it shaped Dayana and our family.
直到现在我才开始更全面地了解为什么会出现这种情况，以及它对达亚娜和我们家庭的影响有多大。
For a long time, I knew the basic facts-- Dayana lived the first years of her life in Guatemala without my parents, and then she came home.
很长一段时间以来，我都知道基本事实——达亚娜在危地马拉度过了她生命的最初几年，没有我的父母，然后她回家了。
But I never knew the full story.
但我从来不知道整个故事。
What was it really like for her?
她的真实情况是什么样的？
How did it affect her?
这对她有何影响？
What did she imagine about her life in LA?
她对洛杉矶的生活有何想象？
Sometimes, you can be so close to people, but this is the kind of thing you don't ask about.
有时候，你可以和人走得那么近，但这是你不问的事情。
What was your idea of what mom and dad were like?
你心目中的爸爸妈妈是什么样的？
I pictured her as this almost like, professional career, beautiful woman.
我把她想象成一个职业、美丽的女人。
I knew she worked full-time.
我知道她全职工作。
And I remember them saying something about how she used to like, design like, fabrics.
我记得他们说过她以前喜欢设计面料。
So I thought that was pretty glamorous.
所以我认为这非常迷人。
And I remember the way she dressed.
我还记得她的穿着方式。
Like, she wore these kind of fitted shirts.
就像，她穿着这种合身的衬衫。
And I remember looking at her and thinking, wow, she has such a beautiful body.
我记得看着她，心想，哇，她的身体真漂亮。
I want to be like her.
我想成为像她一样的人。
You know, she had this like, cute butt.
你知道，她有一个可爱的屁股。
And I was like, oh my gosh, I don't have a butt.
我当时想，天哪，我没有屁股。
I want to have a butt like mama.
我想要拥有像妈妈一样的屁股。
Dayana told me that, during the years apart, she would imagine what it would be like when she finally joined us.
达亚娜告诉我，在分开的这些年里，她会想象当她最终加入我们时会是什么样子。
Like, a lot of-- a lot of hugs, telling me that I was very special, that they loved me.
就像，很多很多拥抱，告诉我我很特别，他们爱我。
And I thought I was going to be very special coming here, you know, to the US, because they were finally going to have me.
我以为我来到美国会非常特别，因为他们终于要接纳我了。
And I thought I was going to be like, on this throne type of thing, because they had missed me so much.
我以为我会像这样，登上王座之类的东西，因为他们非常想念我。
And they were going to want to be with me.
他们会想和我在一起。
My parents did miss Dayana desperately.
我的父母确实非常想念达亚娜。
While Dayana was in Guatemala, they sent her boxes full of toys, clothes, and American candy like Snickers bars and Wrigley's chewing gum-- stuff that was pricey or hard to find back then.
当达亚娜在危地马拉时，他们给她寄来了装满玩具、衣服和美国糖果的箱子，比如士力架和箭牌口香糖——当时这些东西很贵或很难找到。
My mom told me after they were separated, she kept having this dream where Dayana was on a mountain that she couldn't reach.
我妈妈告诉我，他们分开后，她一直做这样的梦：达亚娜在一座她无法到达的山上。
She became deeply depressed.
她变得非常沮丧。
It runs in our family.
它在我们的家庭中流传。
But it's hard to know whether mom's started because of the separation, or if it was there all along, and the separation made it worse.
但很难知道妈妈是否因为分居而开始这样做，或者它是否一直存在，而分居使情况变得更糟。
The first time my mom was able to visit Guatemala after the separation, Dayana was two or three.
分居后，我妈妈第一次去危地马拉时，达亚娜才两三岁。
She hadn't seen her for over a year.
她已经有一年多没有见到她了。
Now, she was meeting her as a toddler.
现在，她见到了还是个小孩的她。
This was before I was born.
这是在我出生之前。
My mom showed up with a suitcase full of outfits and toys for Dayana.
我妈妈带着一个装满达亚娜服装和玩具的手提箱出现了。
And when she got to the house, Dayana sort of ignored her.
当她回到家时，达亚娜有点忽视了她。
She'd rather hang out with Chita, or her Aunt Estella, or Uncle Yembi.
她宁愿和 Chita、她的艾丝黛拉阿姨、或者延比叔叔一起出去玩。
At one point, my mom scolded her for something, and Dayana responded with, tu no me creaste-- you didn't raise me.
有一次，我妈妈因为某件事责备了她，达亚娜回应道，你没有养育我。
But she couldn't pronounce her R's, so the way the story's always told in my family, she said, tu no me cli-aste.
但她发不出 R 的音，所以她说，按照我家里总是讲这个故事的方式，“tu no me cli-aste”。
My mom felt rejected.
我妈妈感到被拒绝了。
She says, looking back, she knows she shouldn't have felt that way.
她说，回想起来，她知道自己不应该有这种感觉。
But she was so young.
但她还那么年轻。
She was only 20.
她才20岁。
Meanwhile, her mom, Chita, was emphatic that Dayana should stay.
与此同时，她的妈妈奇塔（Chita）强调达亚娜应该留下来。
She cried.
她哭了。
She told my mom, I'm attached to her now.
她告诉我妈妈，我现在依恋她了。
Don't take her away.
别把她带走。
By the end of the visit, my mom decided she couldn't tear Dayana away from Chita and a family she did know.
探访结束时，我妈妈决定不能让达亚娜离开奇塔和她所认识的家人。
So she came back to the US alone, without Dayana.
于是她独自一人回到了美国，没有达亚娜的陪伴。
She left the suitcase full of toys behind.
她留下了装满玩具的手提箱。
That scene-- mom going to get Dayana, Dayana staying in Guatemala-- that turned into something that happened over and over.
那个场景——妈妈要去接达亚娜，达亚娜留在危地马拉——这变成了一遍又一遍地发生的事情。
It happened so many times that both Dayana and my mom have lost track.
这种事发生了很多次，以至于达亚娜和我妈妈都失去了踪迹。
It was always the same-- mom would come with the intention of bringing Dayana back with her, Dayana didn't really want to be with her, Chita would cry, and mom couldn't bear to take Dayana away from her.
总是一样的——妈妈来的目的是要把达亚娜带回来，达亚娜并不是真的想和她在一起，奇塔会哭，妈妈不忍心把达亚娜从她身边带走。
I'd heard that story a lot growing up.
我从小就听过这个故事很多次。
The back-and-forth tormented my mom for years.
这种来来回回折磨了我妈妈很多年。
I asked her to talk to me for the story, but she said no. She can't talk about this without crying, and that embarrasses her.
我让她跟我谈谈这个故事，但她拒绝了。谈论这件事她不能不哭，这让她很尴尬。
Until now, it never occurred to me to ask Dayana how all this felt to her.
到目前为止，我从未想过要问达亚娜这一切对她有何感受。
Dayana told me the constant thing she remembers is my parents would come to take her, and the adults would start arguing.
达亚娜告诉我，她一直记得的一件事是我的父母会来接她，大人们会开始争吵。
And it was really confusing.
这真的很令人困惑。
She wanted to go with mom and dad, but she didn't want to leave Chita behind, either.
她想和爸爸妈妈一起去，但她也不想留下Chita。
And the adults around her weren't helping.
而她周围的成年人也没有提供帮助。
One day, they'd tell her, you're leaving.
有一天，他们会告诉她，你要走了。
And then they'd tell her, never mind, you're staying.
然后他们会告诉她，没关系，你要留下来。
That was the kind of detail about Dayana's childhood that I didn't know most of my life.
这就是关于达亚娜童年的细节，但我一生中大部分时间都不知道。
And I didn't know this part, either.
我也不知道这部分。
At one point, my parents turned to Dayana and asked her point blank, so how about it?
有一次，我的父母转向达亚娜，直截了当地问她，那怎么样？
Do you want to come live with us in the US?
您想来美国和我们一起生活吗？
And Dayana was like, sure.
达亚娜说，当然。
She was around four.
她四岁左右。
But then I remember the next day, Tia Estella saying, you shouldn't go.
但我记得第二天，蒂亚·艾丝黛拉说，你不应该去。
We love you here.
我们爱你在这里。
You should really just stay here with us.
你真的应该和我们一起呆在这里。
Why do you want to go with them?
你为什么想和他们一起去？
They left you anyway, and-- so it was that type of conversation.
无论如何，他们离开了你，而且——所以这就是那种类型的谈话。
And then I remember mom and dad asking me again, and me saying no. And then I remember mom and dad being very upset about that.
然后我记得爸爸妈妈又问我，我拒绝了。然后我记得爸爸妈妈对此感到非常沮丧。
To this day-- this comes up in my family, by the way, that Dayana said she wanted to stay.
顺便说一句，直到今天，达亚娜说她想留下来，这件事在我家里仍然存在。
My parents bring it up whenever Dayana asks, why didn't you bring me?
每当达亚娜问起，我父母都会提起，你为什么不带我来？
It's become this ongoing refrain.
这已经成为一种持续的克制。
They'll say, you said no. We asked you, remember?
他们会说，你说不。我们问过你，记得吗？
It's gone on for years.
这种情况已经持续很多年了。
As a reporter, I've covered family separations.
作为一名记者，我报道过家庭分离的情况。
I've covered US immigration policy for more than a decade, most recently for the Los Angeles Times.
我报道美国移民政策已有十多年了，最近一次是为《洛杉矶时报》报道。
And in my job, I've covered their reunifications-- families in airports or at the border hugging each other and crying, teenagers and moms, dads and toddlers, with toddlers looking stoic and distant-- the whole range.
在我的工作中，我报道了他们的团聚——机场或边境的家人互相拥抱哭泣，青少年和妈妈，爸爸和幼儿，幼儿看起来坚忍而疏远——整个范围。
I'm the reporter who goes up to them and asks them how they're feeling.
我是记者，走到他们面前询问他们的感受。
For a lot of people, I think these scenes look like an ending, the conclusion of these stories.
对于很多人来说，我认为这些场景看起来像是一个结局，这些故事的结论。
But I know they're not.
但我知道他们不是。
They're just the beginning.
他们只是开始。
This moment, when a child is returned to their parents, I'm always thinking, the next part, that's the hard part.
这一刻，当孩子回到父母身边时，我总是在想，接下来的部分，那是最困难的部分。
My sister still remembers the exact date that she finally joined my parents in the United States-- December 7, 1982.
我姐姐仍然记得她终于与我父母在美国团聚的确切日期——1982年12月7日。
She was eight, I was three.
她八岁，我三岁。
My parents were legal residents by then.
那时我的父母是合法居民。
Dayana came with Chita-- mom thought it would be easier that way-- and they came for a long visit.
达亚娜（Dayana）和奇塔（Chita）一起来了——妈妈认为这样会更容易——他们来这里是为了进行一次长时间的拜访。
At the end, the plan was, Dayana stays.
最后，计划是达亚娜留下来。
And this time, Chita relented.
这一次，奇塔态度软化了。
Dayana was finally here for good.
达亚娜终于永远在这里了。
Until I started asking her about this recently, I'd always imagined the years of separation were the hardest part for Dayana.
直到我最近开始问她这个问题之前，我一直以为分离的岁月对达亚娜来说是最困难的部分。
But that wasn't true at all.
但事实并非如此。
I didn't know my parents.
我不认识我的父母。
And I didn't know how they were going to treat me.
我不知道他们会如何对待我。
I didn't-- I really didn't know them.
我不——我真的不认识他们。
So it was almost like I was with strangers.
所以这几乎就像我和陌生人在一起一样。
Back in Guatemala, Dayana grew up with aunties and cousins who lived steps away-- a whole network of people who doted on her.
回到危地马拉，达亚娜与住在几步之遥的阿姨和表兄弟姐妹一起长大——一群宠爱她的人。
There was a refrigerator full of homemade ice cream, and Chita would let Dayana grab what she wanted.
冰箱里装满了自制的冰淇淋，奇塔会让达亚娜拿她想要的东西。
It must have been so weird for her, having to navigate a whole new set of rules and ways of living, having to decipher everything, and all of us.
对她来说，这一定很奇怪，必须适应一套全新的规则和生活方式，必须破译一切，以及我们所有人。
I remember feeling really lonely.
我记得我感到非常孤独。
I missed Yembi a lot-- my uncle.
我非常想念延比——我的叔叔。
And then, of course, Chito-- grandpa-- I missed him a lot.
当然，Chito——爷爷——我非常想念他。
I remember I had-- mom and dad bought me a lot of like, stuffed animals.
我记得我——妈妈和爸爸给我买了很多类似的毛绒动物。
And I remember I named all of them.
我记得我给他们都起了名字。
So one of them was like, Paola.
其中一位就像保拉。
One of them was Yembi.
延比就是其中之一。
One of them was Chito.
其中之一就是奇托。
Like, they all had a-- all had a name.
就像，他们都有一个——都有一个名字。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dayana Carcamo Yeah, I mean, it lasted for-- you know, it lasted, gosh-- I think I started to feel-- feeling more comfortable with everything probably in junior high.
Dayana Carcamo 是的，我的意思是，它持续了——你知道，它持续了，天哪——我想我开始感觉——可能在初中时对一切都感觉更舒服。
Yeah, it's a long time.
是的，已经很长时间了。
Dayana Carcamo Mm-hmm.
达亚娜·卡尔卡莫 嗯嗯。
This is the first time I heard this.
这是我第一次听说这个。
And it crushed me.
这让我崩溃了。
It's hard for me to hear this, to hear Dayana dealing with this in such a little kid way.
我很难听到这些，听到达亚娜以如此小孩子的方式处理这件事。
She never seemed like a kid to me when we were little.
当我们小时候，她对我来说从来都不像个孩子。
She was so competent.
她太能干了。
She was so good at school-- straight A's, always so practical.
她在学校成绩很好，成绩全优，而且总是那么务实。
She didn't like to play.
她不喜欢玩。
I had an imaginary friend growing up, and she very rationally was like, that doesn't make sense.
我有一个想象中的朋友长大，她非常理性地认为，这没有道理。
I've always felt she was a grown-up from the beginning, but of course, she wasn't.
我一直觉得她从一开始就已经是个成年人了，但当然，她不是。
She felt insecure, like an outsider.
她觉得自己像个局外人，缺乏安全感。
So she made a plan to try to fit in, to make herself indispensable to our family.
所以她制定了一个计划，试图融入我们的家庭，让自己成为我们家庭中不可或缺的一部分。
Here's what she did every day-- she made her bed and mine, she dressed me in the morning, she made our lunch for school, she helped me with my homework, she washed dishes after dinner, and on the weekends, she helped my mom clean the bathroom.
这就是她每天做的事情——她整理她的床和我的床，她早上给我穿衣服，她为学校准备午餐，她帮助我做作业，她晚饭后洗碗，周末，她帮助我妈妈打扫浴室。
This was the stuff Toya did back in Guatemala-- the housekeeper.
这就是托亚在危地马拉所做的事情——管家。
Dayana did all of this because, in her mind, the stakes were so high.
达亚娜之所以做这一切，是因为在她看来，风险太大了。
She really did think she'd be sent back.
她确实以为自己会被送回去。
I had no idea.
我不知道。
And this wasn't just some little kid thought she had.
这不只是她认为的某个小孩子的事。
She told me that the adults warned her that might happen.
她告诉我，大人警告她这可能会发生。
Just because I remember Chito telling me that I had to be really good, or-- because if I wasn't good, they could send me back.
只是因为我记得奇托告诉我，我必须表现得非常出色，或者——因为如果我表现不好，他们可能会把我送回去。
Dayana says she heard this from our Chita, too.
达亚娜说她也从我们的奇塔那里听到了这个消息。
My mom was always the hardest relationship for Dayana to figure out.
我妈妈一直是达亚娜最难弄清楚的关系。
It didn't help that her mom's depression continued and went undiagnosed for years.
她母亲的抑郁症持续多年且未得到诊断，这也于事无补。
So life with mom could be unpredictable.
所以和妈妈在一起的生活可能是不可预测的。
Anything would set her off.
任何事情都会让她失望。
My mom was so fragile.
我的妈妈是如此脆弱。
She seemed constantly aggravated and anxious.
她似乎总是感到恼怒和焦虑。
And she was usually unsatisfied with anything Dayana did.
她通常对达亚娜所做的任何事情都不满意。
They'd argue over the temperature of the dish water, or the settings on the dryer, Dayana being a little late when she picked her up from school.
他们会争论洗碗水的温度，或者烘干机的设置，达亚娜接她放学时有点晚了。
Always hanging around was the hurt my mom felt from when Dayana had refused to come to the US back when she was little.
当达亚娜（Dayana）小时候拒绝来美国时，我妈妈所感受到的伤害一直萦绕在我的心头。
She would just get really mad, and just, you know, say things like, I shouldn't have come here, or-- I'd just do things to upset her.
她会非常生气，然后，你知道，会说这样的话，我不应该来这里，或者——我只会做一些让她不高兴的事情。
Ever since I came to this country, I would just upset her, and I would do things on purpose to upset her.
自从我来到这个国家，我就只会让她不高兴，我会故意做一些让她不高兴的事情。
She said that to you, that you shouldn't have come here?
她对你说，你不应该来这里？
Do you remember that?
你还记得吗？
I mean-- or did--
我的意思是——或者说是——
Yeah, yeah-- Cindy Carcamo --was that something she said all the time?
是啊，是啊——辛迪·卡尔卡莫——她一直这么说吗？
No, not all the time, but she would just say, you know, ever since you came, you just do things to upset me-- things like that.
不，不是一直这样，但她只是说，你知道，自从你来了之后，你就做一些让我不高兴的事情——诸如此类的事情。
Oh, I don't remember.
哦，我不记得了。
It would-- she would, you know-- she-- yeah, I mean, it would come up, you know?
它会——她会，你知道——她——是的，我的意思是，它会出现，你知道吗？
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dayana Carcamo I mean, that would come up a lot, you know?
Dayana Carcamo 我的意思是，这会出现很多，你知道吗？
Another thing that would come up a lot was, well, you don't really love us.
另一件经常出现的事情是，你并不真正爱我们。
That's why you didn't want to come with in the first place.
这就是为什么你一开始就不想一起去。
I mean, stuff like that has come up so many times.
我的意思是，类似的事情已经出现过很多次了。
I mean, it's just-- I mean, it probably came up like, not too long ago-- probably me as an adult, like, in my 30s, probably.
我的意思是，这只是——我的意思是，它可能是不久前出现的——可能是我作为一个成年人，比如，在我 30 多岁的时候。
Well, I remember when you didn't want to come with us.
好吧，我记得你不想和我们一起去的时候。
You know, it's just like, stuff-- that stuff has come up all the time.
你知道，这就像，那些东西一直在出现。
It's just-- it's nothing new.
这只是——这不是什么新鲜事。
I had no idea my mom had said those things.
我不知道我妈妈说过这些话。
It felt to me like that was just a harsh thing to say to a kid here, holding something against Dayana, this thing she said when she was so little.
在我看来，对一个对达亚娜持反对态度的孩子说这句话是很严厉的，她在很小的时候就说过这句话。
But I also realized how much of a scar that was for my mom.
但我也意识到这对我妈妈来说是多大的伤疤。
When we were teenagers, Dayana was always so busy.
当我们十几岁的时候，达亚娜总是那么忙碌。
I never got as much time as I wanted.
我从来没有得到我想要的那么多时间。
It still is sort of that way.
现在仍然是这样。
I have to book her in advance just to hang out with her.
我必须提前预约才能和她一起出去玩。
I never really understood it, but it makes more sense now, how Dayana kind of turned away from home and started throwing herself into work.
我从来没有真正理解这一点，但现在更有意义了，达亚娜是如何离开家开始全身心投入工作的。
She got her first job at 15 so she could pay her own way more and help the household.
15 岁时，她找到了第一份工作，这样她就可以自己支付更多费用并帮助家里。
When she was in high school, it seemed like all she did was study.
当她上高中时，似乎她所做的一切就是学习。
College, too-- she had a full load of courses and a couple of jobs.
大学也是如此——她有满满的课程和几份工作。
Well, yeah.
嗯，是的。
Cindy Carcamo Why did you feel you had to be the perfect kid?
辛迪·卡尔卡莫 (Cindy Carcamo) 为什么你觉得自己必须成为完美的孩子？
I-- I don't know.
我——我不知道。
I-- I don't know.
我——我不知道。
I just wanted mom and dad to love me.
我只是想让爸爸妈妈爱我。
I got here late, right?
我来晚了，对吗？
I got here when I was eight years old.
我八岁时来到这里。
They didn't really have a relationship with me.
他们和我并没有真正的关系。
So I wanted them to love me.
所以我希望他们爱我。
When Dayana said, I got here late, it just cut me apart.
当达亚娜说“我来晚了”时，我感到心碎。
It's like she's blaming herself-- like she had an appointment, and she messed it all up, and showed up late.
就像她在责怪自己一样——就像她有一个约会，但她把一切搞砸了，而且迟到了。
I've always known my sister and I had different experiences, but I'm only now realizing just how different.
我一直都知道我和姐姐有不同的经历，但我现在才意识到有多么不同。
Recently, I noticed, for example, that my mom has always used with me the less formal and more intimate form of vos.
例如，最近我注意到，我妈妈总是对我使用不太正式、更亲密的 vos 形式。
Dayana, instead, has always been addressed as usted, which automatically puts a distance between them.
相反，Dayana 一直被称为“usted”，这会自动在它们之间拉开距离。
I talked with my mom about this, and she said she didn't consciously do it.
我和妈妈谈过这件事，她说她不是有意识地这么做的。
I believe it, but looking back, she also said, maybe she did that because ever since the separation, she's felt Dayana no longer belonged to her.
我相信，但回想起来，她也说，也许她这么做是因为自从分开后，她觉得达亚娜不再属于她了。
Also, in almost every sibling squabble, my mom took my side, which turned the three of us into this uncomfortable little triangle.
而且，几乎在每一次兄弟姐妹的争吵中，我妈妈都会站在我一边，这让我们三个人变成了这个不舒服的小三角关系。
The two of them would fight so much, I'd get anxious and try to play the peacemaker.
他们两个经常吵架，我会感到焦虑并尝试扮演和事佬的角色。
It didn't always work.
它并不总是有效。
They yelled at each other, got mad at me for taking the other side, and I'd end up feeling like I let them both down in some way.
他们互相大喊大叫，因为我站在另一边而生我的气，而我最终会觉得自己在某种程度上让他们俩失望了。
The older we got, the worse it felt.
我们年纪越大，这种感觉就越糟糕。
As we were talking, my producer, Nadia Reiman, asked Dayana if she could think of examples of how she and I were treated differently.
当我们谈话时，我的制片人纳迪亚·雷曼（Nadia Reiman）问达亚娜（Dayana）是否可以举出一些例子来说明我和她是如何受到不同对待的。
She had a hard time deciding where to start.
她很难决定从哪里开始。
OK, well, first, they-- you know, they bought me a car, and I was expected to pay car insurance.
好吧，首先，他们——你知道，他们给我买了一辆车，我应该支付汽车保险。
Cindy got a car, Cindy got her car paid for, her insurance paid for.
辛迪得到了一辆车，辛迪支付了她的车费，支付了她的保险。
Whenever I needed an oil change, I took care of it.
每当我需要换油时，我都会照顾好它。
I changed the tires, I did everything.
我换了轮胎，我做了一切。
Whenever Cindy needed an oil change, dad would go do it for her.
每当辛迪需要换机油时，爸爸就会去帮她换。
In college, I had to pay for school.
在大学里，我必须支付学费。
I had to work to pay for school.
我必须工作来支付学费。
Cindy went to college, Cindy got everything paid for.
辛迪上了大学，辛迪得到了一切报酬。
Not only that, but she got spending money.
不仅如此，她还得到了零用钱。
Not only that, but she ran up a phone bill.
不仅如此，她还增加了电话费。
They paid for that.
他们为此付出了代价。
They didn't-- they didn't help me at all for undergrad.
他们没有——他们对我的本科生没有任何帮助。
My mom says if Dayana remembers it that way, she must be right, though my parents did help her with grad school.
我妈妈说，如果达亚娜这样记得的话，她一定是对的，尽管我的父母确实帮助她完成了研究生学业。
And I know it's easy for some of this to sound like normal sibling stuff-- older kid, little sister stuff.
我知道其中一些听起来很容易像是正常的兄弟姐妹的事情——大孩子、小妹妹的事情。
But one of the hardest parts of this is that it's hard for Dayana and me to tell what was about her separation and what wasn't.
但其中最困难的部分之一是，达亚娜和我很难分辨她的分离是什么，什么不是。
It would have been so easy for Dayana to resent me, to be so mad at how I was treated versus how she was treated, but that didn't happen.
达亚娜很容易就会怨恨我，对我和她所受到的对待感到非常生气，但那并没有发生。
Instead, she doubled down on being my greatest protector and advocate.
相反，她加倍努力成为我最大的保护者和倡导者。
She didn't like it when anyone said anything mean about me, or when the neighborhood kids didn't want to play with me.
她不喜欢有人说我的坏话，或者邻居的孩子不想和我一起玩。
And in turn, I'd follow her around like a puppy dog.
反过来，我也会像小狗一样跟着她。
When we talked about this recently, I kept asking her, really?
最近我们聊起这件事的时候，我一直在问她，真的吗？
You never resented me?
你从来没有怨恨过我吗？
But in this very reasonable Dayana way, she said, no, it wasn't you.
但她以这种非常合理的达亚娜方式说，不，不是你。
You were just a kid-- but so was she.
你还只是个孩子——但她也是。
The way the separation-- our beginning-- has shaped the rest of our lives, sometimes, we forget about it.
分离——我们的开始——塑造了我们余生的方式，有时，我们会忘记它。
Sometimes, we're caught off guard by it.
有时，我们会被它弄得措手不及。
But it never goes away.
但它永远不会消失。
11 years ago, Dayana had a son, Pablo.
11 年前，达亚娜 (Dayana) 生了一个儿子，巴勃罗 (Pablo)。
Soon after Dayana gave birth to him, mom came to stay with Dayana to help her out.
达亚娜生下他后不久，妈妈就来和达亚娜住在一起，帮助她度过难关。
Things felt different, like the separation was finally fading.
事情感觉不一样了，就像分离终于消失了。
My mom was treating her depression, and was in a much better place.
我妈妈正在治疗她的抑郁症，情况好多了。
She and Dayana had been able to build a relationship.
她和达亚娜已经建立了关系。
They'd gotten close.
他们已经很接近了。
One day, my mom was changing Pablo's diaper.
有一天，我妈妈正在给巴勃罗换尿布。
And I remember her specifically telling me, what I didn't do with you, the time that I didn't spend with you, I will make up for it with Pablo.
而且我记得她特别告诉我，我没有对你做什么，没有和你一起度过的时间，我会和巴勃罗一起弥补。
That was the hope, anyway-- Pablo would help them finally repair this 30-year-old hurt.
无论如何，这就是希望——巴勃罗最终会帮助他们修复这个 30 年来的伤痛。
And then Pablo turned eight.
然后巴勃罗八岁了。
I remember doing dishes and thinking, wow, Pablo is eight.
我记得洗碗时心想，哇，巴勃罗八岁了。
That's what I came to the US.
这就是我来到美国的原因。
He really-- he's really just a kid, you know?
他真的——他真的只是个孩子，你知道吗？
Why-- why did I go through so much?
为什么——为什么我经历了这么多？
I started thinking like, OK, you know, I tried so hard.
我开始想，好吧，你知道，我很努力。
Why was the eight-year-old trying so hard to make her mom happy?
为什么这个八岁的孩子这么努力让妈妈开心？
Why wasn't it the other way around, right?
为什么不是相反呢，对吧？
Why was it me thinking, I'd better be good because they may-- they may send me back?
为什么我会想，我最好表现得好，因为他们可能——他们可能会把我送回去？
When Dayana had Pablo, she had a hard time leaving him with his nanny, or even his grandparents.
当达亚娜有了巴勃罗时，她很难把他留给他的保姆，甚至他的祖父母。
She didn't like being away from him.
她不喜欢离开他。
When Pablo was a toddler, she told me she was looking at getting him microchipped, just to be sure they wouldn't be separated.
当巴勃罗还是个小孩时，她告诉我她正在考虑给他植入微芯片，只是为了确保他们不会被分开。
I was taken aback, and sort of teased her.
我吃了一惊，有点嘲笑她。
I was like, he's not a dog, Dayana.
我当时想，他不是狗，达亚娜。
Isn't that illegal?
这不是违法的吗？
I was really, really paranoid about somebody kidnapping him and taking him away from me.
我真的非常非常偏执，担心有人绑架他并把他从我身边带走。
I mean, I had a tracker on him for when he started going to school, when he started going to preschool.
我的意思是，我在他身上安装了一个追踪器，记录他何时开始上学、何时开始上学前班。
There was a little thing, little chain that he would carry.
他会随身携带一个小东西，小链子。
And if-- and I kept telling him, if anything ever happens, anybody ever takes you, or you ever get lost, you push this button, and the police will come.
如果——我一直告诉他，如果发生任何事情，有人带走你，或者你迷路了，你按下这个按钮，警察就会来。
I would have dreams that he wasn't with me, that somebody would take him away.
我会梦见他不在我身边，有人会把他带走。
And I would be-- and I would look for him, and I would look for him.
我会——我会寻找他，我会寻找他。
And then it really, really-- I really started obsessing with it.
然后我真的真的开始迷恋它了。
And I'm still not OK with like, leaving him in the house by himself, or I still need to know where he is at all times.
我仍然不愿意把他一个人留在家里，否则我仍然需要随时知道他在哪里。
Dayana is type A in general, but it's hard not to draw a line between her being left behind and this fear that she has of ever being separated from Pablo.
总的来说，达亚娜是 A 型，但很难不把她被抛在后面和她对与巴勃罗分离的恐惧区分开来。
I brought it up to her.
我把这件事告诉了她。
To my surprise, it was like a light bulb went off.
令我惊讶的是，这就像一个灯泡熄灭了。
She'd never connected those things.
她从来没有把这些事情联系起来。
And it made sense to her, the idea that all of this was now shaping Pablo's life, too, a whole generation later.
这对她来说是有道理的，所有这一切现在也正在塑造巴勃罗的生活，整整一代人之后。
Two years ago, there was something of a reckoning in my family, at my birthday.
两年前，在我生日那天，我的家人进行了一次清算。
It started out as an argument about family history, like about my paternal grandmother's politics.
它最初是一场关于家族历史的争论，就像我祖母的政治观点一样。
But it became about all of this.
但它变成了这一切。
Everything Dayana was feeling exploded.
达亚娜感觉一切都爆炸了。
She finally told my mom how she felt, how she hadn't been treated fairly since she was little.
她终于告诉我妈妈她的感受，她从小就没有受到公平对待。
She talked about feeling lonely.
她谈到了孤独感。
She said she still felt like she needed to please mom, and never could.
她说她仍然觉得自己需要取悦妈妈，但永远做不到。
My mom apologized.
我妈妈道歉了。
She asked for forgiveness, but Dayana was so angry.
她请求原谅，但达亚娜非常生气。
Things haven't been the same since.
从那以后事情就不一样了。
Like, lately, I've just been thinking like, god, if I would have just shut up and kept on living the way I was living, our relationship would still be great.
就像，最近，我一直在想，上帝，如果我闭嘴并继续按照我的方式生活，我们的关系仍然会很好。
And-- yeah, but I had to-- for some reason, I had to get angry, and I had to get mad.
而且——是的，但我不得不——出于某种原因，我不得不生气，我不得不生气。
And I should have just let things go.
我应该让事情过去。
Like, why?
比如，为什么？
Who cares, right?
谁在乎，对吧？
Like, I'm 46.
比如，我46岁了。
I have succeeded in life.
我已经成功了。
Why-- who cares?
为什么——谁在乎呢？
I should have just let things go.
我应该让事情过去。
Why did I have to bring things up that I wasn't supposed to?
为什么我必须提出不该提出的事情？
So do you regret it?
那么你后悔吗？
Dayana Carcamo I do regret it.
达亚娜·卡尔卡莫 我确实后悔了。
Oh, really?
哦真的吗？
Dayana Carcamo Yeah, now I do.
Dayana Carcamo 是的，现在我知道了。
What do you think you ultimately want from mom?
你认为你最终想从妈妈那里得到什么？
I just want her back.
我只想让她回来。
I just want us to have a relationship.
我只是想让我们建立关系。
But what does that mean, though?
但这意味着什么呢？
Because--
因为——
I want us to be close.
我希望我们能够靠近。
I want her to visit Pablo.
我想让她去拜访巴勃罗。
I want her to give Pablo the time and the love she didn't give me.
我希望她能给巴勃罗她没有给我的时间和爱。
That's all I want.
这就是我想要的。
That's all I want.
这就是我想要的。
At that birthday, during that fight, I did something I really hadn't done before-- I changed my role.
在那次生日那天，在那场战斗中，我做了一件我以前从未做过的事情——我改变了自己的角色。
Finding our way through all of this, I'd always tried to stay neutral, an intermediary.
为了解决这一切，我一直试图保持中立，充当中间人。
But in this case, I switched.
但在这种情况下，我改变了。
I stood up for Dayana.
我支持达亚娜。
I stepped in-between them, not as a neutral peacekeeper, but to defend my sister.
我介入他们之间，不是作为中立的维和人员，而是为了保护我的妹妹。
I've been doing that more and more, lately.
最近我越来越多地这样做。
Recently, I was reporting and talking to a bunch of moms at the border in Tijuana.
最近，我在蒂华纳边境与一群妈妈进行报道和交谈。
They worried they'd be separated from their kids.
他们担心自己会与孩子走散。
I got really upset, and kept thinking about Dayana, about how she was left behind for so long.
我真的很沮丧，一直想着达亚娜，想着她是如何被抛在后面这么久的。
So I called her.
所以我打电话给她。
I felt compelled to tell her what I'd seen.
我觉得有必要告诉她我所看到的。
She said she just felt awful for those mothers and their kids.
她说她只是为那些母亲和她们的孩子感到难过。
Then, I called my mom.
然后，我给妈妈打了电话。
She told me she thought it was irresponsible for these mothers to bring their children with them.
她告诉我，她认为这些母亲带着孩子一起去是不负责任的。
It was dangerous, she said, and she insinuated that some of the women were lying about why they were leaving, that this was all a trick to bring kids on a journey they shouldn't be on-- which, because of my reporting, I knew it wasn't true.
她说，这很危险，她暗示有些妇女在离开的原因上撒了谎，这都是为了让孩子们踏上他们不应该踏上的旅程的诡计——因为我的报道，我知道这不是真的。
It kind of infuriated me.
这有点激怒了我。
And so I said, but mom, these women don't want to leave their kids behind.
所以我说，但是妈妈，这些女人不想把她们的孩子抛在后面。
You had to make a similar choice when you left Dayana, and I don't think it worked out all that great.
当你离开达亚纳时，你也必须做出类似的选择，但我认为结果并不那么好。
As soon as I said it, I felt badly.
话一出口，我的心情就不好了。
I still do.
我仍然这样做。
Mom was silent.
妈妈沉默了。
She said, that's completely different.
她说，那是完全不同的。
I knew it was a hard thing for mom to hear, but I said it anyway.
我知道这对妈妈来说很难听，但我还是说了。
I felt I needed to-- to stand up for Dayana, in a way, for what she'd been through.
我觉得我需要——在某种程度上，为达亚娜挺身而出，为她所经历的事情挺身而出。
My sister and I made a promise to each other recently, that we're going to be there for each other, no matter what.
我和姐姐最近向彼此承诺，无论发生什么，我们都会互相支持。
While we try to fix things with our mom, we're also making a new version of our relationship where now, I'm the one looking out for my big sister, Dayana, protecting her as much as she always did for me.
在我们努力解决与妈妈的问题的同时，我们也在建立一种新的关系，现在，我负责照顾我的姐姐达亚娜，像她一直为我所做的那样保护她。
Cindy Carcamo is a staff writer at the Los Angeles Times.
辛迪·卡尔卡莫是《洛杉矶时报》的特约撰稿人。
Coming up, dee dee dah, pa joo wah-- we translate from Sister to English for you.
即将到来，dee dee dah，pa joo wah——我们为您从 Sister 翻译成英语。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
It's the BBC News Hour.
现在是 BBC 新闻时间。
I'm Bim Adewunmi.
我是比姆·阿德温米。
Kidding-- it's This American Life.
开玩笑——这就是《美国生活》。
I'm sitting in for Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯的替补。
Today's program, "Sisters"-- stories about the worlds sisters create together, and what happens when those worlds are unmade.
今天的节目《姐妹》——讲述姐妹们共同创造的世界的故事，以及当这些世界被破坏时会发生什么。
We've arrived at Sister Act Two: Megan and Sybil.
我们已经到了第二幕姐妹：梅根和西比尔。
There's this thing that I read years ago that I think about quite often, and it came up a lot as we were putting together this show.
我几年前读到过这样的事情，我经常想到这一点，在我们整理这个节目时，它出现了很多次。
It's a Toni Morrison interview from 2015.
这是 2015 年托妮·莫里森 (Toni Morrison) 的采访。
And the interviewer, Rachel Kaadzi Ghansah, asked Miss Morrison about her sister, Lois.
采访者雷切尔·卡齐·甘萨 (Rachel Kaadzi Ghansah) 向莫里森小姐询问了她妹妹洛伊丝 (Lois) 的情况。
Were they close?
他们关系亲密吗？
She asked.
她问道。
And apparently, Toni Morrison gave her an eye roll that she described as, "so sharp it chopped down the question and me." After a long pause, she gave her answer-- my sister?
显然，托妮·莫里森对她翻了个白眼，她形容为“如此尖锐，以至于让这个问题和我都崩溃了。”半晌，她给出了答案——我姐姐？
I need her.
我需要她。
I think about it because the language is so simple, yet so grand.
我想是因为语言是如此简单，却又如此伟大。
I get it-- the person you need to that degree that it defines so much of who you are.
我明白了——你所需要的人在很大程度上定义了你是谁。
The first act of our show was about someone who had spent decades trying to close the gap with her sister because they were apart until she was eight years old.
我们节目的第一幕是关于一个人花了几十年的时间试图缩小与她姐姐的差距，因为他们直到她八岁才分开。
This next story is the reverse-- these sisters, Megan and Sybil Neuringer, were together up through eight.
下一个故事则相反——梅根·纽林格和西比尔·纽林格姐妹在一起度过了八岁。
Their separation started when they were nine.
他们九岁时就开始分居。
Lilly Sullivan has the story.
莉莉·沙利文有这个故事。
Lilly Sullivan The sisters in this story are Megan and Sybil.
莉莉·沙利文这个故事中的姐妹是梅根和西比尔。
They're twins-- identical.
他们是双胞胎——一模一样。
And when you ask Megan to describe her childhood, ages zero through nine, she doesn't hesitate.
当你让梅根描述她从零到九岁的童年时，她毫不犹豫。
She told me it felt like heaven.
她告诉我那感觉就像天堂一样。
We played so much pretend.
我们玩了很多假装。
We had all these trees in our backyard.
我们的后院有所有这些树。
And they'd knock down a tree, and the guts of the tree were out in our lawn.
他们会撞倒一棵树，树的内脏就在我们的草坪上。
And you could see the pulp, the soft like, white pulp of the tree.
你可以看到果肉，柔软的白色果肉。
And it was like, kind of moist.
感觉有点湿润。
And we played like we were eating like, the chicken meat of the tree.
我们玩起来就像吃树上的鸡肉一样。
And we thought this was like, the most incredible discovery-- that like, oh my god, the tree is made of chicken meat, and we're eating the chicken!
我们认为这就像是最令人难以置信的发现——天啊，这棵树是用鸡肉做的，而我们正在吃鸡肉！
Like, I think we ate tree pulp.
就像，我想我们吃了树浆。
We had a song that we would sing with each other.
我们有一首我们会一起唱的歌。
And it was like, our twin chant.
这就像我们的双胞胎圣歌。
And we would like, sing it all the time.
我们希望一直唱这首歌。
And we would just go, (SINGING) dee-dee da, pa-joo wah, dee-dee da, pa-joo wah.
我们就去，（唱）dee-dee da，pa-joo wah，dee-dee da，pa-joo wah。
I have no idea what it means, but I know what it feels like.
我不知道这意味着什么，但我知道那是什么感觉。
Huh.
呵呵。
Megan Neuringer Because we did it in front of the mirror together.
Megan Neuringer 因为我们一起在镜子前做的。
We liked to see-- it's funny, like-- that there was something-- that's like, occurring to me.
我们喜欢看到——这很有趣，就像——有一些事情——就像发生在我身上。
We liked to see ourselves as twins in front of the mirror when we did the chant-- like, to see, oh my gosh, there you are, and there I am.
当我们唱颂歌时，我们喜欢在镜子前看到自己是双胞胎——就像看到，哦天哪，你在那里，我在那里。
There I am, and there you are.
我在那里，你也在那儿。
But you look like me, and I look like you.
但你长得像我，我也长得像你。
And it's the same.
而且是一样的。
Do you remember having like, an opinion about her?
你还记得对她有过类似的看法吗？
Like, what did you think she was like?
比如，你觉得她是什么样的？
Oh, I've-- I-- I loved her.
哦，我——我——我爱她。
It sounds weird, but it was like, so-- it was like my first foray into like, romance, but it wasn't romance.
这听起来很奇怪，但这就像，所以——这就像我第一次涉足浪漫，但这不是浪漫。
But it was like, pure love.
但这就像纯粹的爱情。
I was like, in love with my sister.
我就像爱上了我的妹妹。
Sybil died when they were nine years old.
西比尔在他们九岁时去世了。
And it's only recently that Megan's really started talking about Sybil at all.
直到最近梅根才真正开始谈论西比尔。
For decades, it's been too hard.
几十年来，太难了。
It wasn't only that she died, it was also the way that they were separated.
不仅仅是她的死，也是他们分离的方式。
It was really sudden.
实在是太突然了。
She told me it was September, the beginning of fifth grade.
她告诉我那是九月，五年级开始。
The school day had just ended.
学校的一天刚刚结束。
They were walking with a group of kids, and stopped at a hot dog stand.
他们和一群孩子一起散步，在一个热狗摊前停了下来。
And while we were at the stand-- I don't know why-- Sybil just ran across the street.
当我们在看台上时——我不知道为什么——西比尔就跑过马路。
And when she ran across the street, she got hit by a car.
当她跑过马路时，她被车撞了。
And I saw it happen.
我看到它发生了。
And I screamed, just-- I just was screaming.
我尖叫起来，只是——我只是在尖叫。
I didn't even know I was screaming, but somebody came and stopped me from screaming.
我什至不知道自己在尖叫，但有人过来阻止我尖叫。
And I tried to run out into the street, and somebody stopped me.
我试图跑到街上，有人拦住了我。
And she was lying in the street.
而她就躺在街上。
And I remember there was this mechanic, or some guy in like, a dirty outfit.
我记得有一个机械师，或者某个穿着脏衣服的人。
And he had a like, oily rag, and he went to her to wipe the blood off her forehead.
他有一块类似的油抹布，他走到她面前擦去她额头上的血迹。
And he's putting this dirty rag on her head, and I-- I didn't like that.
他把这块脏布放在她头上，我——我不喜欢这样。
The ambulance took Sybil to the hospital.
救护车将西比尔送往医院。
Megan went home and waited, alone.
梅根回到家，独自等待。
She desperately wanted to see Sybil, but her parents didn't let her.
她非常想见西比尔，但她的父母不允许她。
So she never saw Sybil again.
所以她再也没有见过西比尔。
Megan remembers when her mom told her they were going to unplug Sybil, how angry she was, and how she begged them not to.
梅根记得当她妈妈告诉她他们要拔掉西比尔的电源时，她有多生气，并恳求他们不要这样做。
If your sister is your whole world, what happens when she's gone?
如果你的妹妹就是你的全世界，当她离开后会发生什么？
I was born with Sybil.
我和西比尔一起出生。
There was always Sybil.
总是有西比尔。
And so when she was gone, I felt so weird.
所以当她离开后，我感觉很奇怪。
I felt-- that's the word.
我觉得——就是这个词。
I just felt like, ugh, this is not right.
我只是觉得，呃，这是不对的。
Without Sybil, Megan really didn't know who she was or who she should be.
没有西比尔，梅根真的不知道她是谁，也不知道她应该是谁。
So she started inventing ways to keep Sibyl around.
所以她开始想办法让西比尔留在身边。
This is sort of where I was like, I have to do something really exceptional and remarkable with my life.
这就是我的想法，我必须在我的生活中做一些非常特别和非凡的事情。
I'm responsible for whatever Sybil didn't get to have, so I'll live that life, and I'll live my life.
我要对西比尔没有得到的一切负责，所以我会过那样的生活，我会过我的生活。
And I'll combine them, and it's going to be like, ultra-Megatron life.
我会将它们结合起来，这将是超级威震天的生活。
All the pressure was on for me to have the most amazing life of all time.
所有的压力都压在我身上，要求我拥有有史以来最美妙的生活。
I like, had to be the best.
我喜欢，一定是最好的。
I don't think so.
我不这么认为。
Lilly Sullivan [LAUGHS]
莉莉·沙利文[笑]
No, I was pretty messy.
不，我当时很乱。
Every teacher, when you'd get like, reviewed for like, how Megan was in class, was like, Megan is exceptionally bright, curious, great kid.
每一位老师，当你评价梅根在课堂上的表现时，都会说，梅根是一个非常聪明、好奇、很棒的孩子。
Not a perfectionist-- sloppy, very undisciplined.
不是一个完美主义者——马虎、非常不守纪律。
She became disciplined.
她变得自律了。
She also started doing all the things Sybil was no longer doing-- the things Sybil loved, like her ballet classes.
她还开始做西比尔不再做的所有事情——西比尔喜欢的事情，比如她的芭蕾舞课。
Sybil had loved ballet.
西比尔热爱芭蕾舞。
Megan had quit years earlier-- too strict.
梅根几年前就辞职了——太严格了。
The leotards were too girly for her, and it bugged her how the teacher would always be telling her to pull her tush in.
紧身衣对她来说太少女了，老师总是让她把屁股收起来，这让她很烦恼。
But after she died, I started taking ballet lessons, and I danced.
但她去世后，我开始上芭蕾舞课，然后跳舞。
Hmm.
唔。
Megan Neuringer Ballet and jazz, all of it.
梅根·纽林格 (Megan Neuringer) 芭蕾舞和爵士乐，所有这些。
And I have to tell you, I didn't like it.
我必须告诉你，我不喜欢它。
[LAUGHS] I didn't like it.
[笑]我不喜欢它。
Sybil had written poetry, so Megan started writing poetry, too.
西比尔写过诗，所以梅根也开始写诗。
That one, she liked, though-- sitting at her desk in their room, composing in her journal the way Sybil had.
不过，她喜欢那个——坐在房间里的办公桌前，像西比尔那样写日记。
In my journal, I would write, we're going to make it.
我会在日记中写道，我们会成功的。
We're making it.
我们正在做到。
We are.
我们是。
I wrote as we-- me and Sybil.
我以我们——我和西比尔的身份写作。
We're going to get an A on this test, you know?
我们这次考试会得A，你知道吗？
We're going to ace the SATs.
我们要在 SAT 考试中取得好成绩。
We're-- we have to.
我们——我们必须这样做。
We have to make it.
我们必须做到。
Making it.
制作它。
We are making it.
我们正在做到。
Making it meant if there was any opportunity to achieve, she owed it to Sybil to excel.
实现这一目标意味着如果有任何实现目标的机会，她都应该感谢西比尔的出色表现。
So a few months after Sybil died, there was this thing at school-- the Presidential Fitness Award, one of those national fitness tests they made lots of kids do back in the '80s that everyone seems to remember with a sense of shame and failure-- how long could you hold the sitting V, dangling in front of your classmates in gym, trying to do a pull-up?
西比尔去世几个月后，学校里出现了这样的事情——总统健身奖，这是他们在 80 年代让很多孩子参加的全国体能测试之一，每个人似乎都带着羞耻和失败的感觉记住了——在健身房里，在同学面前晃来晃去，尝试做引体向上，你能保持坐姿 V 多久？
I decided, well, I can be anything, and I'm going to get the Presidential Physical Fitness Award.
我决定，好吧，我可以成为任何人，而且我将获得总统体能奖。
I have to.
我必须。
I started training for it, basically, with my mom.
我基本上是和妈妈一起开始训练的。
I'm like, I have to practice the standing broad jump because you have to get a certain amount.
我想，我必须练习立定跳远，因为你必须达到一定的量。
And there was like, the nine-minute mile.
好像是九分钟一英里。
This was like, so hard for me-- like, running, oh my god, a nine-minute mile.
这对我来说太难了——就像跑步，天哪，九分钟一英里。
And I remember when I was competing for it, I started feeling so tired in my lungs that I started hyperventilating, because I'd put so much pressure on myself, too.
我记得当我参加比赛时，我开始感到肺部非常疲倦，以至于我开始过度换气，因为我也给自己施加了很大的压力。
And I was hyperventilating, and I started crying.
我呼吸急促，开始哭泣。
And I remember these two classmates, these boys were helping me off the track.
我记得这两个同学，这些男孩帮助我脱离了轨道。
And I'm crying, and I'm letting myself down, and I'm like, letting Sybil down, and I'm not going to get it.
我在哭，我让自己失望，我让西比尔失望，我不会明白的。
And I-- they're like, helping me off the track, and I pushed them away.
而我——他们就像是在帮助我脱离轨道，而我却把他们推开了。
And I finished like, crying and hyperventilating.
然后我就哭完了，气喘吁吁。
This is literally like, the story of my life.
这就像我一生的故事。
I'm not naturally good at it, I'm pretty close to quitting.
我天生不擅长这个，我已经快要放弃了。
Somebody's like, you should quit, and then I'm like, actually, let me finish, crying and hyperventilating, and like, try to get what I want.
有人说，你应该放弃，然后我说，实际上，让我说完，哭着，喘着粗气，然后，试着得到我想要的。
But my name was up on that wall, and I still have the T-shirt from fifth grade.
但我的名字挂在墙上，而且我还保留着五年级时的 T 恤。
That first year after Sybil died, Megan doesn't remember letting herself cry about Sybil.
西比尔去世后的第一年，梅根不记得让自己为西比尔哭泣。
She didn't talk about her.
她没有谈论她。
She felt like if she started crying, she'd never stop.
她觉得如果她开始哭泣，她就永远不会停止。
She'd cry so much that she'd end up in a mental hospital.
她哭得很厉害，最后被送进了精神病院。
As she got older, she'd get stuck on certain thoughts-- that she should have been the one who died, that Sybil was the better twin.
随着年龄的增长，她会陷入某些想法中——她应该是死者，西比尔是更好的双胞胎。
She often thought about killing herself, but thought, what an insult to Sybil.
她经常想到自杀，但又想，这对西比尔来说是多么大的侮辱。
Her parents weren't much help with any of this.
她的父母在这方面并没有提供太多帮助。
They talked about sending her to a therapist, but Megan didn't want to go, and they didn't force her.
他们讨论过送她去看治疗师，但梅根不想去，他们也没有强迫她。
So they just never talked about any of it.
所以他们从来没有谈论过任何事情。
Like, there was no, but what does Megan want?
就像，没有，但梅根想要什么？
But what about Megan?
但梅根呢？
Like-- which is fine.
就像——这很好。
Truly, like, my parents were living like, a full nightmare.
确实，我的父母生活得像一场噩梦。
My parents were so sad.
我的父母非常伤心。
Everybody was so sad.
大家都很伤心。
And it was like, well, I can't be.
就好像，好吧，我不能。
She made a point of trying to act like everything was fine, to hold it together.
她特意努力表现得好像一切都很好，以维持一切。
And as she got into high school, she got even more intense, doing this thing she sometimes calls double living-- living a life that's not just the best, but twice as good as a normal life, for Sybil.
当她进入高中时，她变得更加紧张，做着她有时称之为双重生活的事情——对西比尔来说，过一种不仅是最好的生活，而且是正常生活两倍的生活。
The destination was like, to go to the best college and to have the best life.
目标是，上最好的大学，过最好的生活。
Making it-- we were going to make it.
成功了——我们一定会成功的。
By the time she's an adult, that voice in her head putting pressure on her, it just kind of became Megan's personality, how she thought about herself.
当她成年时，她脑海中的那个声音给她带来了压力，这成了梅根的性格，她对自己的看法。
Like, I have to get this right.
就像，我必须把这件事做好。
It has to be perfect.
它必须是完美的。
It can't be stupid, it can't just be fun.
它不能是愚蠢的，它不能只是有趣。
It has to mean something.
它必须意味着什么。
So is this something you feel like you wouldn't have done if you weren't doing it for Sybil in some way?
那么，您是否觉得，如果您没有以某种方式为西比尔做这件事，您就不会做这件事？
That's a really hard question to answer because I don't-- like, who am I?
这是一个很难回答的问题，因为我不知道我是谁？
Who am I if Sybil hadn't passed away?
如果西比尔没有去世，我是谁？
I-- that's something I would love to know.
我——这是我很想知道的事情。
But I honestly don't know because I don't know if this ambition would have been here in some ways, anyway.
但老实说我不知道，因为我不知道这个雄心是否会以某种方式存在。
Like, I really don't know.
就像，我真的不知道。
Yeah.
是的。
What do you think Sybil would have-- would think if she like, were seeing you pushing yourself to do things that were painful for you like that, all those years?
如果西比尔愿意的话，看到你强迫自己做那些让你痛苦的事情，这么多年，你认为她会怎么想？
What do you think she would say?
你觉得她会说什么？
I understand your question, and I don't know why I always have this like, instant reluctance when people ask me, what do you think Sybil would think or say?
我理解你的问题，但我不知道为什么当人们问我“你认为西比尔会怎么想或说什么”时，我总是有这样的、瞬间的不情愿？
And other people have asked.
还有其他人问过。
And I think I-- I think I get so just-- it's not your fault, it's that I think I instantly get outraged that I have to answer for her.
我想我——我想我很公正——这不是你的错，而是我想我立刻对我必须为她负责而感到愤怒。
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Megan Neuringer I don't like it.
梅根·纽林格 我不喜欢它。
Like, I don't like having to imagine.
就像，我不喜欢想象。
I'm mad that she can't answer you.
我很生气她不能回答你。
And I think maybe my reaction is just a little bit nuts.
我想也许我的反应有点疯狂。
I think it's a normal question.
我认为这是一个正常的问题。
Like, I think it's a really natural question.
就像，我认为这是一个非常自然的问题。
But to like, try to imagine her reaction to adult Megan-- in a lot of ways, she's frozen for me, at nine.
但要喜欢，试着想象她对成年梅根的反应——在很多方面，她对我来说是冻结的，九岁。
She is.
她是。
Sybil's nine.
西比尔九岁了。
She died at nine.
她九岁时就去世了。
Everything else is an invention.
其他一切都是发明。
It's only recently that Megan's started trying to sort out who she is outside of Sybil.
直到最近，梅根才开始尝试弄清楚自己在西比尔之外是谁。
This began a few years ago, when her mom was dying of cancer.
这一切始于几年前，当时她的母亲死于癌症。
Megan was with her the whole time, through hospice, and all those days when her mom was in and out of consciousness, on morphine, in that middle place between living and dying.
梅根一直陪着她，在临终关怀中心，以及她妈妈在生与死之间、靠吗啡时时清醒时的那些日子里。
And she, at one point, was calling me Sybil a lot.
她有一次经常叫我西比尔。
And I said, at one point, no, mom, I'm Megan.
我有一次说，不，妈妈，我是梅根。
Sybil died.
西比尔死了。
And she corrected me, and she said, no, Megan died.
她纠正了我，她说，不，梅根死了。
We lost Megan.
我们失去了梅根。
Sybil stayed.
西比尔留下来了。
And-- and I remember, you know, I was kind of shocked, but not because it hurt my feelings, but that maybe she's right.
而且——我记得，你知道，我有点震惊，但不是因为这伤害了我的感情，而是因为也许她是对的。
Maybe Megan did die, and Sybil did stay.
也许梅根确实死了，而西比尔确实留下了。
And this whole time, you know, yeah, I'm the dead one.
一直以来，你知道，是的，我就是死者。
Megan had thought that if she could do the right things, then she might start feeling less dead, but it wasn't working.
梅根曾以为，如果她能做正确的事，那么她可能会开始感觉不那么死气沉沉，但这并不起作用。
So just in the past few years, she's started to let go of this project to live for Sybil.
所以就在过去的几年里，她开始放弃这个项目，为Sybil而活。
It hasn't been easy, but she feels more like herself.
这并不容易，但她感觉更像自己了。
She's put down some of that anger she's always had about the injustice of Sybil's death.
她已经平息了一些她一直对西比尔之死的不公正所怀有的愤怒。
And that's cleared the way for her to feel more like she did when they were together.
这为她扫清了道路，让她感觉更像他们在一起时的感觉。
It surprised her, she said.
她说，这让她很惊讶。
She feels close to Sybil again.
她再次感觉自己与西比尔很亲近。
She loves her.
她爱她。
Bim Adewunmi Lilly Sullivan is one of the producers of our show.
Bim Adewunmi Lilly Sullivan 是我们节目的制片人之一。
Before we go, there's this passage from Housekeeping, a novel about two sisters written by Marilynne Robinson, published in 1980.
在我们走之前，请看一下《家政》中的一段话，这是玛丽莲·罗宾逊 (Marilynne Robinson) 于 1980 年出版的一部关于两姐妹的小说。
It nails something about sisters that I just really identify with-- the kind of inadvertent performance sisters sometimes put on that people notice and are drawn to.
它揭示了我真正认同的关于姐妹的一些东西——姐妹们有时不经意的表现，人们会注意到并被吸引。
She writes, "Having a sister or a friend is like sitting at night in a lighted house.
她写道：“有一个姐妹或朋友就像晚上坐在灯火通明的房子里。
Those outside can watch you if they want, but you need not see them.
外面的人如果愿意的话可以看你，但你不需要看到他们。
You simply say, here are the perimeters of our attention.
您只需说，这是我们注意力的范围。
If you prowl around under the windows till the crickets go silent, we will pull the shades.
如果你在窗户下徘徊直到蟋蟀安静下来，我们就会拉上百叶窗。
If you wish us to suffer your envious curiosity, you must permit us not to notice it.
如果你希望我们承受你的嫉妒好奇心，你就必须允许我们不注意到它。
Anyone with one solid human bond is that smug.
任何拥有牢固人际关系的人都会如此沾沾自喜。
And it is the smugness, as much as the comfort and safety, that lonely people covet and admire."
孤独的人所觊觎和钦佩的正是这种自鸣得意，以及舒适和安全。”
Credits Bim Adewunmi Our show today was produced by Laura Starecheski and Lilly Sullivan.
致谢 Bim Adewunmi 我们今天的节目由 Laura Starecheski 和 Lilly Sullivan 制作。
The people who put together today's show include Elna Baker, Ben Calhoun, Dana Chivvis, Sean Cole, Aviva DeKornfeld, Damien Graef, Chana Joffe-Walt, Miki Meek, Lina Misitzis, Stowe Nelson, Katherine Rae Mondo, Nadia Reiman, Ari Saperstein, Alissa Shipp, Matt Tierney, and Diane Wu.
今天节目的制作人包括 Elna Baker、Ben Calhoun、Dana Chivvis、Sean Cole、Aviva DeKornfeld、Damien Graef、Chana Joffe-Walt、Miki Meek、Lina Misitzis、Stowe Nelson、Katherine Rae Mondo、Nadia Reiman、Ari Saperstein、Alissa Shipp、Matt Tierney 和 Diane Wu。
Our managing editor is Sarah Abdurrahman, senior editor David Kestenbaum.
我们的总编辑是 Sarah Abdurrahman，高级编辑 David Kestenbaum。
Our executive editor is Emanuele Berry.
我们的执行编辑是 Emanuele Berry。
Special thanks today to Cindy and Dayana Carcamo's mother, Reed Johnson, Luz Paz, Cora, Nick Fainbarg, Sylvie and Brian Malamet, Maggie and Lila Margulies, Noga Newberg, and my big sister, Ade Adewunmi.
今天特别感谢辛迪·卡尔卡莫和达亚娜·卡尔卡莫的母亲、里德·约翰逊、卢兹·帕斯、科拉、尼克·法恩巴尔格、西尔维和布莱恩·马拉梅特、玛吉和莉拉·马古利斯、诺加·纽伯格，以及我的姐姐阿德·阿德温米。
Fact checking by Andrea López-Cruzado and Christopher Swetala.
Andrea López-Cruzado 和 Christopher Swetala 进行事实核查。
Our website-- thisamericanlife.org, where you can stream our archive of over 700 episodes for absolutely free.
我们的网站 -- thisamericanlife.org，您可以在其中完全免费地观看我们的 700 多集档案。
And there's videos, and lists of favorite shows, and tons of other stuff there, too.
还有视频、最喜欢的节目列表以及大量其他内容。
Again, thisamericanlife.org.
再说一次，thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Special thanks to our regular host, Ira Glass.
特别感谢我们的常任主持人 Ira Glass。
He's got this ritual before every interview-- he goes to the bathroom, looks straight in the mirror, and has a pep talk conversation with himself-- oh, it's a good thing you're smart.
每次采访前他都会有这样的仪式——他去洗手间，直视镜子，然后自言自语——哦，你很聪明，这是一件好事。
I'm glad you're smart.
我很高兴你很聪明。
Yeah, I am smart.
是的，我很聪明。
I'm Bim Adewunmi.
我是比姆·阿德温米。
We'll be back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
This American Life This American Life 与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。