736: The Herd - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #736 | April 23, 2021 736: The Herd Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 736 集 | 2021 年 4 月 23 日 736：The Herd 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作，旨在让人们听到。
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如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass We all know how it is today.
序言：序言 Ira Glass 我们都知道今天的情况。
For most of the year, medical experts and government officials told us all to wear face masks.
在一年的大部分时间里，医学专家和政府官员都告诉我们所有人都要戴口罩。
Half of us don't do it.
我们中有一半人不这样做。
Now that we finally have a vaccine, a third are hesitant to take it or say they definitely will not take it.
现在我们终于有了疫苗，三分之一的人犹豫是否要接种它，或者说他们绝对不会接种。
But it wasn't always like this.
但情况并不总是这样。
Americans used to do what they were asked by medical authorities, mostly.
美国人过去大多会按照医疗当局的要求去做。
Like when the 1918 flu pandemic hit the United States, killing similar numbers of Americans that COVID is killing today.
就像 1918 年流感大流行袭击美国时一样，造成的美国人死亡人数与今天的新冠肺炎死亡人数相当。
Let's look at one American city that did a pretty good job minimizing deaths back then.
让我们看一下当时在减少死亡人数方面做得很好的一个美国城市。
Howard Markel writes about the history of American epidemics.
霍华德·马克尔写了美国流行病的历史。
So a great example, the example I love to use, is St. Louis, Missouri.
密苏里州圣路易斯就是一个很好的例子，也是我喜欢使用的例子。
And they had a very adept commissioner of health named Max Starkloff.
他们有一位非常称职的卫生专员，名叫马克斯·斯塔克洛夫（Max Starkloff）。
Commissioner of health is the local official, usually a doctor, who tells everybody what to do when there's an epidemic or other health emergency.
卫生专员是当地官员，通常是医生，他告诉每个人在发生流行病或其他卫生紧急情况时应该做什么。
For instance, Max Starkloff closed schools.
例如，马克斯·斯塔克洛夫关闭了学校。
He ended public gatherings of all sorts.
他结束了各种公共集会。
He ordered people who were sick to be quarantined.
他下令对生病的人进行隔离。
Dr. Starkloff was a good political operator.
斯塔克洛夫博士是一位出色的政治操盘手。
But he was also very good at communicating to the public and made twice-daily statements that were reported in the newspapers.
但他也非常善于与公众沟通，每天发表两次声明，并在报纸上报道。
And you have to remember, back then, most newspapers had six or more editions per day.
你必须记住，当时大多数报纸每天都有六个或更多版本。
So they updated them, much like CNN would update its stories.
所以他们更新了它们，就像 CNN 更新它的故事一样。
Yeah, it was like, be a good St. Louisian, I remember.
是的，我记得，就像是，做一个好的圣路易斯人。
You know, and don't spread the flu.
你知道，不要传播流感。
It is a socially mediated disease, and we've got to work together.
这是一种社交疾病，我们必须共同努力。
Howard says Dr. Starkloff had all kinds of messages, telling people to wash their hands, don't cough on others.
霍华德说，斯塔克洛夫博士传达了各种各样的信息，告诉人们要洗手，不要向别人咳嗽。
And because medicine was so primitive back then, they hadn't actually isolated the flu virus.
由于当时的医学非常原始，他们并没有真正分离出流感病毒。
So they had no way to confirm if you had it.
所以他们无法确认你是否拥有它。
They couldn't test you.
他们无法测试你。
So the only way they could keep track of the disease was that people who were sneezing and sick told authorities.
因此，他们追踪这种疾病的唯一方法就是那些打喷嚏和生病的人告诉当局。
So Starkloff would tell the public--
所以斯塔克洛夫会告诉公众——
These are the symptoms that you need to call us about.
这些是您需要致电我们咨询的症状。
You need to communicate this to us.
您需要将此信息传达给我们。
That's where the word "communicable disease" comes from, by the way.
顺便说一句，这就是“传染病”一词的由来。
Not so much that it's infectious, even though it is, but that one source is communicating it to a higher source and to a public health department.
尽管它具有传染性，但并不是说它具有传染性，而是一个来源正在将其传达给更高的来源和公共卫生部门。
Oh, wow.
哦，哇。
Howard Markel Yeah.
霍华德·马克尔 是的。
So that works because if you can get people on board with that, they're self-isolating, they're self-reporting, they're self-quarantining and so on.
所以这是有效的，因为如果你能让人们参与进来，他们就会自我隔离、自我报告、自我隔离等等。
So that's good.
所以这样很好。
To be clear, not everybody was on board.
需要明确的是，并非所有人都同意。
There's pushback from the public in every American epidemic, Howard says.
霍华德说，每次美国流行病都会遭到公众的抵制。
German immigrants rioted rather than get vaccinated in the 1880s.
1880 年代，德国移民不愿接种疫苗，引发骚乱。
During the 1918 flu, 2,000 people showed up to protest a mandatory face mask law in California.
1918 年流感期间，2000 人聚集抗议加利福尼亚州的强制戴口罩法。
But mostly, Howard Markel says, people complied.
霍华德·马克尔说，但大多数情况下，人们都遵守了。
He says they trusted scientists more back then, even though scientists knew so much less than they know today.
他说，当时的人们更加信任科学家，尽管科学家们知道的东西比现在少得多。
And also, remember, 1918, the country was at war.
另外，请记住，1918 年，这个国家正处于战争之中。
It was World War I.
那是第一次世界大战。
So there's a lot of patriotic "let's all pull together" feeling in the country.
因此，国内有很多“让我们齐心协力”的爱国情绪。
But maybe the biggest reason that people listened to public health authorities back in 1918-- self-interest.
但早在 1918 年，人们听取公共卫生当局意见的最大原因也许就是自身利益。
Avoiding public gatherings, quarantines, that was about all you could do to protect yourself and your loved ones, given the state of medicine back then.
考虑到当时的医学状况，避免公共聚会、隔离是保护自己和亲人所能做的一切。
Most everybody knew somebody who'd died of an infectious disease, Howard says.
霍华德说，大多数人都认识死于传染病的人。
Two of five babies died before their fifth birthday, many of them from infectious diseases.
五名婴儿中有两人在五岁生日前死亡，其中许多人死于传染病。
And Howard says epidemics were coming through every year or so, diseases we had no treatment for.
霍华德说，流行病每年都会发生，而我们却无法治疗这些疾病。
Yeah, whether there was a diphtheria or a whooping cough epidemic, or occasional smallpox epidemics, or measles epidemics, you know, they were frequent enough that you were quite used to epidemics, particularly if you were a parent.
是的，无论是白喉或百日咳流行，还是偶尔流行的天花流行，或麻疹流行，你知道，它们的频率足够高，以至于你已经习惯了流行病，特别是如果你是父母的话。
And used to the tactics to deal with them, used to quarantining and isolating and all that.
并习惯了对付他们的策略，习惯了隔离和隔离等等。
Right, because you didn't have anything else.
对啊，因为你没有别的东西了。
This is before the age of antibiotics.
这是抗生素时代之前的事。
That doesn't happen till the 1940s.
这种情况直到 20 世纪 40 年代才发生。
Antivirals don't come till way after that.
抗病毒药物在那之后才出现。
I think all of us living today, when so many diseases are treatable, I think we forget what a different world that was.
我认为生活在今天的我们所有人，当许多疾病都是可以治疗的时候，我想我们忘记了那是一个多么不同的世界。
Like for instance, if you got tuberculosis in New York City in the 1940s, they would send you to a TB ward to keep you from infecting anybody else.
举个例子，如果你在 20 世纪 40 年代在纽约市得了肺结核，他们会把你送到肺结核病房，以防止你感染其他人。
I had a neighbor who was born in 1927, and she told me as a kid, when she got the disease, she was sent to one of those wards to live on the Upper West Side.
我有一个出生于 1927 年的邻居，她小时候告诉我，当她得了这种病时，她被送到了其中一个病房，住在上西区。
The building's actually still there.
这座大楼实际上还在那里。
She said they told her when she arrived, "OK, we don't know how to cure this, but we do know how to make you comfortable.
她说，当她到达时，他们告诉她，“好吧，我们不知道如何治愈这个问题，但我们确实知道如何让你感到舒服。
Some of you live, and some of you die.
你们中有些人活着，有些人死了。
Good luck."
祝你好运。”
Today, of course, things are so different.
当然，今天情况已大不相同。
Howard Markel says there's never been an epidemic in America like the one we're going through right now.
霍华德·马克尔说，美国从未出现过像我们现在正在经历的这样的流行病。
None.
没有任何。
None have come close to being as politicized, as red versus blue, on even the most mundane of scientific matters than this pandemic.
即使在最平凡的科学问题上，没有什么比这次大流行更接近政治化了，比如红色与蓝色。
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
Howard Markel Not even close.
霍华德·马克尔 还差得很远。
It feels as if it's so baked in to the ideologies of so many Americans right now, it feels almost hopeless.
感觉它现在已经融入了许多美国人的意识形态中，让人感觉几乎绝望。
Well, today on our program, we have stories of public health experts trying to protect the public, telling us all to do things that will save our lives in this moment when unprecedented numbers of us are not obeying them.
好吧，今天在我们的节目中，我们讲述了公共卫生专家试图保护公众的故事，告诉我们所有人在这个时刻，当我们中有空前数量的人不服从他们时，要做一些可以拯救我们生命的事情。
We have two stories today.
今天我们有两个故事。
The first is about what it's like to do these jobs while getting so much pushback.
第一个是关于在面临如此多阻力的情况下完成这些工作的感觉。
The second, an expert on how to get through to Republican voters tries to convince them to take the vaccine, which is not easy.
第二，一位关于如何说服共和党选民的专家试图说服他们接种疫苗，这并不容易。
WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
WBEZ 芝加哥，这就是《美国生活》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act 1, Hazardous to Your Health Official.
第 1 章，对您的健康官员有害。
So the way the system works in our country is that there are thousands of local public health officials in cities and counties across the country.
所以这个系统在我们国家的运作方式是，全国各市县有数千名地方公共卫生官员。
In normal times, they test our drinking water.
平时，他们会测试我们的饮用水。
They make sure restaurants are sanitary.
他们确保餐厅的卫生。
They enforce smoking bans, control mosquito populations in some places, run education campaigns, like nutrition programs for new mothers.
他们实施禁烟令，控制某些地方的蚊子数量，开展教育活动，例如针对新妈妈的营养计划。
The specifics vary a little from state to state, but you get the idea.
各州的具体情况略有不同，但您明白了。
They oversee health conditions.
他们监督健康状况。
And when there's a health emergency, like the outbreak of an infectious disease, they get special powers, broad powers to quarantine, close down businesses, do what's necessary to keep it from spreading.
当出现卫生紧急情况时，例如传染病爆发，他们获得特殊权力，广泛的权力来隔离，关闭企业，采取必要措施防止疫情蔓延。
And they're obligated to take action.
他们有义务采取行动。
This past year, like I've said, the public that they're protecting has made all that a lot harder to do.
在过去的一年里，正如我所说，他们所保护的公众让这一切变得更加困难。
Keep in mind, these are not elected officials.
请记住，这些人不是民选官员。
They are public servants.
他们是公务员。
They're government employees.
他们是政府雇员。
Anna Maria Barry-Jester, a reporter with Kaiser Health News, has a story about two of these public health officials in Santa Cruz County in California, where she lives.
凯撒健康新闻记者安娜·玛丽亚·巴里-杰斯特（Anna Maria Barry-Jester）讲述了她所居住的加利福尼亚州圣克鲁斯县的两名公共卫生官员的故事。
A heads-up before we start-- some things in this story may not be right for children to hear.
在开始之前请注意——这个故事中的某些内容可能不适合孩子们听到。
Here's Anna.
这是安娜。
I've spent the last year talking to dozens of public health officials all over the country.
去年我与全国各地的数十名公共卫生官员进行了交谈。
I'd call to ask about COVID testing, contact tracing, or some other issue I was reporting on.
我会打电话询问有关新冠病毒检测、接触者追踪或我报告的其他一些问题。
And they'd often make an offhand comment about getting threatening calls in the middle of the night, or emails that had detailed photos of their house with messages like "Look out, we're coming for you."
他们经常会随意评论说在半夜接到威胁电话，或者收到带有他们房子详细照片的电子邮件，并附有诸如“小心，我们来找你了”之类的信息。
Most of these public health people didn't want to go into detail about it on the record.
大多数公共卫生人员不想记录在案的详细信息。
It was too scary.
太可怕了。
They worried that it would only make them bigger targets.
他们担心这只会让他们成为更大的目标。
But these two officials in Santa Cruz County stood out, because they not only agreed to talk, they were unusually candid.
但这两位圣克鲁斯县的官员脱颖而出，因为他们不仅同意谈话，而且异常坦诚。
The first official I'm going to tell you about is Dr. Gail Newel.
我要向您介绍的第一位官员是盖尔·纽埃尔博士。
She's the county's health officer, sort of like the Fauci of Santa Cruz, but with more power.
她是该县的卫生官员，有点像圣克鲁斯的福奇，但权力更大。
She writes the orders requiring masks, closing bars and restaurants.
她写下要求戴口罩、关闭酒吧和餐馆的命令。
She's the public face of the COVID response.
她是应对新冠疫情的公众形象。
Gail is what you want in a health officer-- no nonsense, uncompromising.
盖尔就是你想要的卫生官员——不废话，不妥协。
In meetings with elected officials, she's known for shutting them down if they ask her to do something she doesn't think is right.
在与民选官员的会议上，如果他们要求她做一些她认为不正确的事情，她就会阻止他们。
She just says-- Gail Newel It's not going to happen as long as I'm health officer.
她只是说——盖尔·纽埃尔（Gail Newel） 只要我还是卫生官员，这种情况就不会发生。
How is that received?
是如何收到的？
Gail Newel I think-- I don't like to use that as a threat.
盖尔·纽埃尔（Gail Newel） 我想——我不喜欢用它作为威胁。
But on the other hand, I'm really stubbornly persistent.
但另一方面，我又是一个非常顽固的人。
[CHUCKLING] And I really do believe that I'm in the right place at the right time to be of service to the community during this pandemic in this way.
[咯咯笑]我真的相信，在这场大流行期间，我在正确的时间、正确的地点以这种方式为社区提供服务。
When the pandemic hit last spring, Santa Cruz County was a total success story.
去年春天大流行爆发时，圣克鲁斯县取得了巨大的成功。
Gail ordered one of the country's first stay-at-home orders on March 16, when the federal government was still telling us not to wear masks and President Trump was suggesting COVID would just disappear with warmer weather.
3 月 16 日，盖尔下达了美国第一批居家令之一，当时联邦政府仍在告诉我们不要戴口罩，而特朗普总统则暗示新冠病毒会随着天气变暖而消失。
While COVID case numbers and deaths shot up in New York New, Orleans, and Detroit, the numbers in Santa Cruz County stayed very low.
虽然纽约州、奥尔良和底特律的新冠病例数和死亡人数激增，但圣克鲁斯县的病例数仍然很低。
But at public meetings, Gail started seeing a level of anger she hadn't seen before in her career.
但在公开会议上，盖尔开始看到她职业生涯中从未见过的愤怒程度。
Wow.
哇。
Y'all supervisors are such uncaring assholes.
你们所有的主管都是如此冷漠的混蛋。
This whole shelter in place is complete bullshit.
整个避难所完全是胡说八道。
Like, you and you are just terrible at your jobs.
就像，你和你的工作很糟糕。
This guy pointed at Gail.
这家伙指着盖尔。
Santa Cruz County is lined with beaches.
圣克鲁斯县两旁都是海滩。
It's a place with a boardwalk, and roller coasters, and a big surf scene.
这是一个有木板路、过山车和大型冲浪场景的地方。
Gail closed them down to keep tourists away.
盖尔关闭了它们以阻止游客。
You have to allow police officers to basically be walking fascists.
你必须允许警察基本上成为行走的法西斯分子。
They have to go around and harass peaceful people for being on a beach, for being outside, for, like, hanging out with your friends.
他们必须四处骚扰和平的人们，因为他们在海滩上，在外面，比如和朋友一起出去玩。
What good is being alive if you can't do anything?
如果你什么都做不了，那活着还有什么意义呢？
You want me to stay inside, get fat, watch Netflix, and masturbate?
你想让我呆在家里，变胖，看Netflix，然后自慰吗？
That's literally all you are allowing us to do.
这实际上就是您允许我们做的全部事情。
Your hands are not tied, Dr. Newel.
纽埃尔博士，你的手没有被束缚。
Grow a spine!
长出脊椎！
In the spring, there were only a handful of COVID cases each week.
春季，每周只有少数新冠病例。
Only two people in a county of more than a quarter million had died.
在一个超过25万人口的县里，只有两人死亡。
But this crowd didn't see that as evidence of a job well done by Gail.
但这些人并不认为这是盖尔出色完成工作的证据。
You are shutting down Santa Cruz because of two deaths.
由于两人死亡，你们正在关闭圣克鲁斯。
I don't care about how many tests there are.
我不在乎有多少测试。
People are wandering around not dying.
人们四处漂泊，却没有死去。
This is fraud, economic terrorism.
这是欺诈，经济恐怖主义。
The people going after Gail at these meetings were a small but vocal group.
在这些会议上追捕盖尔的人虽小，但声音很大。
Many of them were from the north and central parts of the county, which are affluent and majority white.
他们中的许多人来自该县的北部和中部地区，这些地区富裕且以白人为主。
They weren't the people getting sick from COVID.
他们不是感染新冠病毒的人。
Those cases were mostly in south county, which is majority Latino and where a lot of agricultural workers live.
这些病例大多发生在南部县，该县以拉丁裔为主，居住着许多农业工人。
Protesters were hijacking public meetings like this all over the country.
全国各地的抗议者都在劫持这样的公共集会。
Gail wasn't terribly concerned.
盖尔并不十分担心。
She kept forging ahead with her job, giving press conferences and pulling all-nighters.
她不断地推进自己的工作，召开新闻发布会并通宵达旦。
Then in early May, the protests escalated from public to private.
然后在五月初，抗议活动从公开升级到私人。
After weeks of getting nasty emails and voicemails from strangers, one Sunday Gail was taking an afternoon nap to recover from her 80-hour workweek.
在连续几周收到陌生人发来的令人讨厌的电子邮件和语音邮件后，盖尔在周日午睡，以从每周 80 小时的工作中恢复过来。
She called it her COVID Sabbath.
她称其为新冠安息日。
And all of a sudden, I heard all this racket.
突然间，我听到了这些喧闹声。
And so I peeped through a window and saw the group out in front.
于是我透过窗户往外看，看到前面有一群人。
And they were singing, playing guitars, playing ukulele.
他们唱歌、弹吉他、弹尤克里里。
(SINGING) Gail to jail!
（唱歌）盖尔入狱！
Anna Maria Barry-Jester They're singing "Gail to jail." This is from a video the protesters posted online.
安娜·玛丽亚·巴里-杰斯特 他们正在唱“盖尔入狱”。这是抗议者在网上发布的视频。
In some ways, it was amusing and creative.
从某些方面来说，这很有趣，也很有创意。
But then they would gather around my home on all sides and yell out threatening things.
但随后他们就会从四面八方聚集在我家周围，大声喊出威胁的话。
She called 911 twice but got a busy signal.
她拨打了两次 911，但都听到忙音。
So she called the sheriff on his cell phone.
于是她用手机给治安官打了电话。
He sent patrol cars to her house.
他派了巡逻车到她家。
I mean, I'm willing to be a public servant.
我的意思是，我愿意当一名公务员。
But I don't think that that includes having people trespass onto my private property and to disturb my Sunday afternoon nap in a way that felt dangerous to me.
但我不认为这包括让人们侵入我的私人财产并以一种对我来说很危险的方式打扰我周日下午的午睡。
So I was quite worried for my family, and for myself, and our safety.
所以我非常担心我的家人、我自己以及我们的安全。
Protesters with ukuleles and flip-flops is very Santa Cruz.
拿着四弦琴和人字拖的抗议者非常圣克鲁斯。
The county's about an hour south of San Francisco, with a stereotype as a crunchy, peace-loving, lefty paradise.
该县距离旧金山以南约一小时车程，人们对这里的刻板印象是一个脆脆的、爱好和平的左撇子天堂。
But these protesters were aggressive.
但这些抗议者的攻击性很强。
They broke down the gate to her neighborhood to get to her house.
他们冲破了她家附近的大门，来到了她家。
They showed up with bullhorns and sirens every Sunday for a month.
一个月来，他们每周日都带着扩音器和警报器出现。
The sheriff's department started sending regular patrols past Gail's house.
治安部门开始派人定期巡逻盖尔的家。
Then late in May, the next escalation happened at a public meeting in a packed room.
然后在五月底，下一次升级发生在拥挤的房间里的一次公开会议上。
A man started walking up to the podium, and then made a beeline for Gail and lunged at her.
一名男子开始走向讲台，然后径直走向盖尔并向她扑来。
Clear the room.
清理房间。
Excuse me.
打扰一下。
Chair, I'd ask that you clear the room.
主席，我请你清理一下房间。
That's a county official evacuating the room.
那是一名县官员正在撤离房间。
Two sheriff's deputies surrounded the man.
两名副治安官包围了该男子。
We're not going to accept that kind of behavior.
我们不会接受这种行为。
Take a recess, and we are clearing the room.
休息一下，我们正在清理房间。
It happened so quickly that I didn't really know what was going on.
事情发生得太快了，我根本不知道发生了什么。
And then suddenly I was surrounded by sheriff's deputies, and I was escorted out of the building.
然后突然我被治安官的代表包围了，我被护送出了大楼。
And I was told by the sheriff that I couldn't come to any more in-person meetings anymore.
治安官告诉我，我不能再参加任何面对面的会议了。
The sheriff told you to do that?
警长让你这么做的？
Can you tell me about that conversation?
你能告诉我那次谈话吗？
Yeah, so the sheriff said that he didn't feel confident that he and his deputies would be able to protect me in public venues any longer, and that he recommended that I not appear in public anymore in meetings, where people would know where I was.
是的，所以警长说他对他和他的副手是否能够再在公共场所保护我没有信心，并且他建议我不要再出现在会议上，人们会知道我在哪里。
Gail was now a public servant who could no longer appear before the public.
盖尔现在是一名公务员，不能再出现在公众面前。
She took the sheriff's advice to stop appearing in person at public meetings.
她听取了治安官的建议，不再亲自出席公开会议。
She and the sheriff had a good relationship.
她和警长的关系很好。
She trusted his advice.
她相信他的建议。
And notably, he had enforced her lockdown orders.
值得注意的是，他执行了她的封锁令。
The county government had backed her up, too.
县政府也给了她很大的支持。
Maybe that shouldn't sound remarkable, but it is.
也许这听起来不是什么了不起的事，但事实确实如此。
In some other parts of the country, sheriffs and local governments were publicly disregarding their health officials' orders.
在该国其他一些地区，治安官和地方政府公开无视卫生官员的命令。
The second health official I'm going to tell you about is Gail's boss, director Mimi Hall.
我要向您介绍的第二位卫生官员是盖尔的老板、总监米米·霍尔。
If Gail's the Tony Fauci of Santa Cruz, always on TV, Mimi's the bureaucrat behind the scenes.
如果说盖尔是圣克鲁斯的托尼·福奇，总是出现在电视上，那么咪咪就是幕后的官僚。
She runs the entire health department, and has spent her whole 27-year career working in public health.
她负责管理整个卫生部门，并在公共卫生领域度过了 27 年的职业生涯。
She's a true believer, the kind of person who gets visibly excited talking about bureaucratic changes that make it easier to enroll in Medicaid.
她是一个真正的信徒，是那种在谈论官僚机构改革使加入医疗补助变得更容易时明显感到兴奋的人。
And she navigated the threats she was getting differently from Gail.
她面对威胁的方式与盖尔不同。
Gail tends to be pretty cut and dry.
盖尔的性格往往比较干练。
Mimi is the feelings person.
咪咪是一个重感情的人。
She has empathy for people, even when they're yelling obscenities at her.
她对人们抱有同情心，即使他们对她大喊大叫。
My feelings of discomfort were coupled with compassion.
我的不适感与同情心交织在一起。
And so while there were words used like "communist" and "tyrant" and "fascist" and a lot of accusations that there really wasn't a pandemic, I could always understand that these people came from their own place of fear, discomfort, anger, all of those things.
因此，虽然有人使用“共产主义者”、“暴君”和“法西斯”等词，并且有很多指责说确实没有流行病，但我总能理解这些人来自他们自己的恐惧、不适、愤怒等所有这些东西。
And people need a place to put that.
人们需要一个地方来放置它。
Mimi was at that May meeting with Gail.
咪咪参加了五月份与盖尔的会面。
On the one hand, she felt worried.
一方面，她感到担忧。
But also, she wasn't sure what to make of it.
但同时，她也不确定该怎么办。
The day that the person had lunged at her in the boardroom, you know, we were offered sheriff's deputies escorts back to our office.
那天，那个人在董事会向她猛扑，你知道，我们被邀请治安官的副手护送回我们的办公室。
Which we appreciated.
我们对此表示赞赏。
And then we were both offered escorts back home, and I declined.
然后我们都被邀请护送回家，我拒绝了。
And part of the reason I declined is, you're not sure, is it really dangerous?
我拒绝的部分原因是，你不确定这真的很危险吗？
You feel this feeling of, well, maybe we're overreacting.
你会感觉到，好吧，也许我们反应过度了。
You know, and you feel kind of silly.
你知道，你感觉有点傻。
Feeling silly or not, she did take some basic precautions.
不管她是否觉得愚蠢，她确实采取了一些基本的预防措施。
She started leaving her office at the county building every day by 7:00 PM.
她开始每天晚上 7:00 离开县政府大楼的办公室。
That's when security guards left for the day.
就在那时，保安人员离开了当天。
That was kind of like my ticking time clock, right?
这有点像我滴答作响的时钟，对吧？
And I have this habit of calling my husband from my office before I go down the stairs.
我有一个习惯，就是在下楼之前先从办公室给我丈夫打电话。
And then we stay on the phone until I get to the bottom of the stairwell, and then walk to my car.
然后我们一直打电话，直到我到达楼梯井底部，然后走到我的车旁。
My car door's closed, and it's locked.
我的车门关着，而且锁着。
All over the country, opposition to mask mandates and stay-at-home orders have been drawing together groups that didn't normally see eye to eye.
在全国各地，反对戴口罩和居家令的声音一直在吸引通常意见不一致的群体聚集在一起。
Lefty radicals and right wing extremists, libertarians and mom groups, small business owners and anti-vaxxers, they started adopting each other's rhetoric.
左翼激进分子和右翼极端分子、自由主义者和妈妈团体、小企业主和反疫苗者，他们开始采纳彼此的言论。
On social media, anti-vaxxers posed with rifles and offered firearms training.
在社交媒体上，反疫苗者拿着步枪摆姿势并提供枪械训练。
This all made the landscaper of who was lobbing the threats and what they were capable of even murkier and scarier.
这一切都让景观设计者对谁在发出威胁以及他们的能力变得更加阴暗和可怕。
In June, things got much worse.
进入六月，情况变得更糟。
A colleague of Mimi's, a sheriff's deputy, was killed when he was out on a call.
咪咪的一名副警长同事在外出执行任务时被杀。
This happened less than two miles from her home in the Santa Cruz mountains.
这件事发生在距离她位于圣克鲁斯山区的家不到两英里的地方。
According to court records, a man linked to the Boogaloo Boys, an anti-government extremist group that wants to incite a civil war, shot at the deputy and other officers with an automatic rifle and threw a pipe bomb.
根据法庭记录，一名与反政府极端组织“布加卢男孩”(Boogaloo Boys)有联系、想要煽动内战的男子用自动步枪向副警长和其他警官开枪，并投掷了一枚管状炸弹。
Before this man was arrested, he got hit with crossfire and used his own blood to write a "Boog" on the hood of a car.
这名男子被捕前，中了交火，并用自己的血在汽车引擎盖上写下了“Boog”。
Mimi saw ambulances and police cars rushing to the scene, and was stunned to find out that the alleged gunman lives so close to her and was an active duty sergeant in the Air Force.
咪咪看到救护车和警车赶到现场，惊讶地发现嫌疑枪手住得离她这么近，而且是一名空军现役中士。
He's pleaded not guilty to murder.
他对谋杀罪不认罪。
I started wondering who around me thinks this way, and how close are they?
我开始想知道我周围的人有没有这样的想法，他们的距离有多近？
And so immediately we installed more-- we installed security cameras.
所以我们立即安装了更多——我们安装了安全摄像头。
And when we first installed those, I was looking at them constantly.
当我们第一次安装它们时，我一直在看着它们。
It was like an obsession.
这就像一种痴迷。
When I was at work, oh, my gosh.
当我在工作时，哦，天哪。
That made me so nervous for the kids to be at home.
这让我对孩子们在家感到非常紧张。
I was a nervous wreck.
我当时很紧张。
Mimi urged Gail to get security cameras, and couldn't believe how long it took her to install them.
咪咪敦促盖尔购买安全摄像头，她不敢相信她花了多长时间才安装好。
When the sheriff recommended they both get guns and firearm training, Mimi brought home a shotgun and built gates across her driveway.
当治安官建议他们都接受枪支和枪械训练时，咪咪带了一把猎枪回家，并在她的车道上建了大门。
Gail didn't get a gun.
盖尔没有拿到枪。
Here's what Gail said about that decision.
以下是盖尔对这一决定的评价。
I know the public health statistics.
我知道公共卫生统计数据。
You know you're far more likely to die from a gunshot wound if you have a gun in the home.
您知道，如果您家里有枪，您死于枪伤的可能性就会大得多。
And I don't want to take that risk.
我不想冒这个风险。
I was also raised Mennonite, so I have very strong pacifist beliefs.
我也是门诺派教徒，所以我有非常强烈的和平主义信仰。
I wouldn't ever have a gun in my home.
我家里永远不会有枪。
And he recommended that I get a big dog.
他建议我养一只大狗。
He asked me about my dog.
他问我关于我的狗的事。
And I said, well, he's deaf and he has no teeth.
我说，好吧，他聋了，也没有牙齿。
Did you get the dog?
你收到狗了吗？
Gail Newel I did not get the dog, either.
盖尔·纽埃尔 我也没有得到那只狗。
We still have the old deaf dog.
我们还有那只老聋狗。
We have some pretty ferocious cats, though.
不过，我们有一些非常凶猛的猫。
There's a privacy law in California that shields the home addresses of domestic abuse survivors and abortion providers.
加利福尼亚州有一项隐私法，保护家庭暴力幸存者和堕胎提供者的家庭住址。
Last year, the governor expanded it to public health officials.
去年，州长将其范围扩大到公共卫生官员。
Mimi signed up.
咪咪报名了。
Gail did, too.
盖尔也这么做了。
The fact that it all got to this point surprised Mimi.
事情发展到这个地步，让咪咪感到惊讶。
She'd moved to Santa Cruz because she saw it as a refuge for her family.
她搬到圣克鲁斯是因为她将这里视为家人的避难所。
They used to live in Plumas, a politically conservative and white county in northern California.
他们曾经住在加利福尼亚州北部一个政治保守的白人县普卢马斯。
She ran the public health department there, and was constantly fighting with officials, especially when she had to roll out Obamacare.
她在那里负责公共卫生部门，并不断与官员发生冲突，尤其是当她不得不推出奥巴马医改时。
She told me they were also dealing with a lot of racism.
她告诉我，他们还面临着很多种族主义问题。
She and her kids are Burmese American.
她和她的孩子是缅甸裔美国人。
They all hoped for a more peaceful life when they moved to liberal Santa Cruz.
当他们搬到自由派的圣克鲁斯时，他们都希望过上更加平静的生活。
I talked to Mimi about this.
我和咪咪谈过这件事。
And until that period, until this period, how had you seen yourself in the community and your role in it?
直到那个时期，直到这个时期，您如何看待自己在社区中以及您在其中的角色？
I just saw myself as a regular community member and a mom and a wife and a-- you know.
我只是把自己视为一个普通的社区成员、一个母亲、一个妻子和一个——你知道的。
I just lived my life.
我只是过着我的生活。
And it's really changed how free I feel to, like, be my authentic self in the community.
它确实改变了我在社区中做真实自我的自由感。
You know, after Deputy Gutzwiller's death, so my daughter had made a Black Lives Matter sign and put it on the outside of our fence.
你知道，在古茨威勒副警长去世后，我女儿制作了一个“黑人生命也是命”的标志，并将其放在我们的栅栏外面。
And then we had a sign celebrating my other daughter's graduation.
然后我们举了一个标志来庆祝我另一个女儿的毕业。
And it had her name on it.
上面有她的名字。
We took all of those down.
我们把所有这些都拿下来了。
Like, we just had nothing that said what we believe in or what we stand for.
就像，我们只是没有任何东西来表达我们的信仰或我们的立场。
Nothing.
没有什么。
The majority of local public health officials in the country are women.
该国大多数地方公共卫生官员是女性。
I've talked to lots of them, and there's a recurring pattern.
我和他们中的很多人谈过，有一个反复出现的模式。
The harassment and threats they've been getting this year come almost exclusively from men.
今年她们受到的骚扰和威胁几乎全部来自男性。
They're regularly called bitches and threatened with death.
他们经常被称为“婊子”并受到死亡威胁。
Their children and spouses are called out by name.
他们的孩子和配偶的名字都会被叫出来。
Armed men have openly carried weapons outside of some of their homes.
武装人员公开携带武器走出一些住所。
I didn't hear about that kind of harassment at all from their male colleagues.
我根本没有从他们的男同事那里听说过这种骚扰。
In the county next door to Santa Cruz, Santa Clara County, a female health officer got a steady stream of anonymous hate mail and death threats police believe came from a man with suspected ties to the Boogaloo Boys.
在圣克拉拉县圣克鲁斯附近的县，一名女卫生官员收到源源不断的匿名仇恨邮件和死亡威胁，警方认为这些邮件来自一名疑似与布加卢男孩有联系的男子。
Some of the letters had a Santa Claus stamp and an igloo, which is a known symbol for the movement.
有些信件上有圣诞老人的邮票和冰屋，这是该运动的一个众所周知的象征。
He included pornographic images of women and called her a "Hitler bitch." Then in July, about a month after the Sheriff's deputy was killed, Mimi got a letter with a Santa Claus stamp, too.
他收录了女性的色情图片，并称她为“希特勒婊子”。然后在七月，也就是副警长被杀大约一个月后，咪咪也收到了一封贴有圣诞老人邮票的信。
Police believe it's from the same man.
警方相信这是同一个人所为。
So it started off with "Hey, C-U-N-T." I mean, that's how it was addressed.
所以它以“嘿，C-U-N-T”开始。我的意思是，这就是它的解决方式。
And this letter was different because it said "I've shared your information widely on social media and among all my contacts." And one of the closing points in the letter said something like me dying a really slow death, and that he would enjoy that.
这封信有所不同，因为它说“我已在社交媒体和我的所有联系人中广泛分享了您的信息。”信中的最后一点说，像我正在慢慢死去，他会喜欢这样。
She immediately called the sheriff's department and spoke with a deputy.
她立即致电治安部门并与一名副警长交谈。
What he told me was, he said, you know what?
他告诉我的是，他说，你知道吗？
We've been following this guy for a while.
我们跟踪这个人有一段时间了。
We know who he is.
我们知道他是谁。
We know where he works.
我们知道他在哪里工作。
Like, they knew who he was.
就像，他们知道他是谁。
They told me he lived in Gilroy.
他们告诉我他住在吉尔罗伊。
The FBI is involved.
联邦调查局参与其中。
You know, he felt like they had good eyes on this person.
要知道，他感觉他们对这个人很有眼光。
So he wanted me to know that.
所以他想让我知道这一点。
So I felt a comfort level, that it wasn't just some random person out there and they had no idea.
所以我感到很舒服，这不仅仅是一些随机的人，他们也不知道。
But then one of the things that really struck me is he also said, Yeah, I don't think he's a huge threat.
但真正让我震惊的一件事是他还说，是的，我不认为他是一个巨大的威胁。
And he said, he's a dad.
他说，他是一个父亲。
He has kids.
他有孩子。
He has a professional job, and he drives a Tesla.
他有一份专业工作，开着一辆特斯拉。
As if any of those things make you less dangerous or less, you know, out there.
好像这些事情中的任何一个都会让你在外面的危险性降低或减少，你知道的。
And I was just like--
我当时就像——
What were you thinking?
你在想什么？
Mimi Hall I was like, opposite profiling.
咪咪霍尔我就像，相反的侧面。
A white gentleman with a professional job who drives a Tesla?
一位拥有专业工作、开特斯拉的白人绅士？
And then I thought, well, maybe he was telling me that just to make me feel better, you know?
然后我想，好吧，也许他告诉我这些只是为了让我感觉好一点，你知道吗？
I don't know, but that's what he told me, and it did not make me feel better.
我不知道，但他就是这么告诉我的，但这并没有让我感觉好一点。
Shortly after, officers arrested the guy after they watched him drop another letter in the mail.
不久之后，警察在看到他在邮件中投下另一封信后逮捕了他。
When they searched his home, they found 150 firearms, including semi-automatic rifles, thousands of rounds of ammunition, and materials for explosives.
当他们搜查他的家时，他们发现了150支枪支，包括半自动步枪、数千发弹药和炸药材料。
He's pleaded not guilty to charges of stalking and threatening a public employee.
他对跟踪和威胁公职人员的指控表示不认罪。
After the Santa Claus letter, Mimi basically stopped leaving her house.
收到圣诞老人的信后，咪咪基本上不再出门了。
She wouldn't even go to her kid's school events on Zoom, in case the other parents recognized her.
她甚至不会在 Zoom 上参加孩子的学校活动，以防其他家长认出她。
And when she did have to go to the grocery store, she went incognito-- mask, hat, messy ponytail.
当她不得不去杂货店时，她会隐姓埋名——戴着面具、帽子、凌乱的马尾辫。
A sheriff's patrol car started keeping watch, parking in front of her house.
一辆警长的巡逻车开始巡逻，停在她家门前。
She was getting threatening emails, angry phone calls in the middle of the night.
她在半夜收到威胁性电子邮件和愤怒的电话。
I asked her if any of the threats she got were racist, given all the attacks against Asian-Americans this year.
我问她，考虑到今年针对亚裔美国人的所有攻击，她收到的威胁是否是种族主义的。
And she said no, just sexist.
她说不，只是性别歧视。
She was having trouble sleeping, bringing her laptop into bed every night.
她睡眠困难，每晚都把笔记本电脑带到床上。
She gained 30 pounds and started taking blood pressure medication for the first time in her life.
她体重增加了 30 磅，并生平第一次开始服用降血压药物。
On bad days, she thought about quitting.
心情不好的时候，她会考虑辞职。
She'd do what she calls retirement math, a trick she learned from another health official, to remind herself that she could quit any time and still get her pension.
她会做她所谓的退休数学，这是她从另一位卫生官员那里学到的技巧，以提醒自己，她可以随时辞职，但仍然可以获得养老金。
There were days I just felt like, I can't do this.
有几天我只是觉得，我做不到。
I can't do it anymore.
我不能再这样做了。
I can't get up tomorrow morning.
明天早上我起不来。
I ex-- I was mentally, physically, emotionally exhausted.
我以前——我在精神上、身体上、情感上都疲惫不堪。
And then the way you know that your community feels about you, saying that you should be shot, you should all be shot, it just makes you want to cut out.
然后你知道你的社区对你的感觉，说你应该被枪杀，你们都应该被枪杀，这只会让你想要退出。
That's why I thought the only way I can escape this is to just retire and be there more for my family.
这就是为什么我认为摆脱困境的唯一方法就是退休并更多地陪伴家人。
Did you anyone in your family want you to quit, retire?
你家里有人希望你辞职、退休吗？
Yes, yes.
是的，是的。
My kids were scared.
我的孩子们很害怕。
My oldest was like, "Mom, we can't do this.
我最大的孩子说：“妈妈，我们不能这样做。
You can't do your job anymore.
你不能再做你的工作了。
We have to go." I'm like, where are we going to go?
我们得走了。”我想，我们要去哪里？
What are we going to do?
我们要做什么？
And you know, and it meant finding a different way to put my kids through college.
你知道，这意味着找到一种不同的方式让我的孩子读完大学。
And then we all decided, we will find a way to have a different kind of life, and it probably couldn't be here.
然后我们都决定，我们会找到一种方式来过上不同的生活，但它可能不会在这里。
We knew that for a fact.
我们确实知道这一点。
I mean, we talked about selling our home, and we all talked about the fact that if I have to do that, we're all OK with that.
我的意思是，我们谈到了卖掉我们的房子，我们都谈到了这样一个事实：如果我必须这样做，我们都同意。
In the battle between these willful public servants and the mob, Mimi and Gale never blinked.
在这些任性的公仆与暴民的战斗中，咪咪和盖尔从未眨眼。
They've kept their misgivings to themselves.
他们把疑虑藏在心里。
They've both toughed it out and stayed in their jobs.
他们都挺过来了，并坚守在自己的工作岗位上。
When the county furloughed employees, they worked through it to make sure vaccines got out.
当该县让员工休假时，他们会努力确保疫苗接种到位。
And they've gotten a lot done.
他们已经完成了很多工作。
It's clear they saved a lot of lives by locking down early.
很明显，他们通过提前封锁挽救了很多生命。
But the thing they were trying so hard to prevent did eventually happen.
但他们极力想要阻止的事情最终还是发生了。
In the fall, cases started to climb when the state loosened restrictions on restaurants and businesses and holiday gatherings began.
秋季，随着该州放松对餐馆和企业的限制以及假日聚会的开始，病例开始攀升。
Nursing homes in Santa Cruz got hit for the first time, causing the death rate in the county to spike.
圣克鲁斯的疗养院首次遭到袭击，导致该县死亡率飙升。
This was devastating to Gail and Mimi.
这对盖尔和咪咪来说是毁灭性的打击。
They were seeing more deaths in a single day than they had in the first six months of the pandemic combined.
他们在一天内看到的死亡人数比大流行前六个月的死亡人数总和还多。
There's this one press conference that Gail held last year that I still think about, because it feels indicative of where we are as a country right now.
我仍然记得盖尔去年举行的一场新闻发布会，因为它感觉表明了我们作为一个国家现在的处境。
When Gail closed the beaches, lots of people ignored the order and went anyway.
当盖尔关闭海滩时，很多人无视命令，还是去了。
They threatened and harassed the officers who tried to enforce it.
他们威胁并骚扰试图执行该规定的官员。
That weighed on Gail, especially after the deputy was killed.
这让盖尔感到很沉重，尤其是在副手被杀之后。
So she decided to reopen the beaches.
所以她决定重新开放海滩。
She didn't think the security risk to the officers and to her was worth it anymore, especially if people weren't going to listen anyway.
她认为，对警察和她来说，冒安全风险已经不值得了，尤其是如果人们无论如何都不会听的话。
And effective today at midnight, the beach closure will end.
从今天午夜开始，海滩关闭将结束。
It's become impossible for law enforcement to continue to enforce that closure.
执法部门不可能继续强制关闭。
People are not willing to be governed anymore, in that regard.
从这方面来说，人们不愿意再被统治了。
"People are not willing to be governed," at least not by officials who ask them to make sacrifices for their neighbors.
“人们不愿意被统治”，至少不愿意被那些要求他们为邻居做出牺牲的官员所统治。
And as a result, the officials, trying to govern us are quitting in droves.
结果，试图统治我们的官员们纷纷辞职。
Since the beginning of the pandemic, nearly 250 public health officials working in communities all over the US have left their jobs, many because of threats and political pushback.
自疫情爆发以来，美国各地社区有近 250 名公共卫生官员离职，其中许多人是因为威胁和政治阻力。
Nearly one in six Americans now lives in a community that has lost its local health department leader during the pandemic, officials like Mimi and Gail.
现在，近六分之一的美国人生活在一个社区，该社区在大流行期间失去了当地卫生部门的领导，比如米米和盖尔等官员。
It's the largest exodus of health officials in US history.
这是美国历史上最大规模的卫生官员外流。
Anna Maria Barry-Jester, she's a reporter from Kaiser Health News.
安娜·玛丽亚·巴里-杰斯特，凯撒健康新闻的记者。
More things happened, by the way, to Gail and Mimi than we can fit into our story, and it tells those things in the version that she wrote for Kaiser Health News.
顺便说一句，盖尔和咪咪身上发生的事情比我们的故事要多，她为凯撒健康新闻撰写的版本讲述了这些事情。
That's at khm.org.
这是在 khm.org 上。
[MUSIC - JOY AGAIN, "LOOKING OUT FOR YOU"]
[音乐-再次欢乐，“寻找你”]
(SINGING) I guess should stop looking out for you like I always do.
（唱歌）我想我应该停止像往常一样照顾你。
Start looking out for me, too.
你也开始关注我吧。
Instead of leaving me staring at my shoes.
而不是让我盯着我的鞋子。
Coming up, one bold man sits down with a bunch of Republicans who emphatically do not want the COVID vaccine and tries to figure out exactly what to say to them to get them to change their minds.
接下来，一位大胆的男子与一群坚决不想要新冠疫苗的共和党人坐下来，并试图弄清楚到底该对他们说什么才能让他们改变主意。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today on our program, you can't get herd immunity until you deal with the herd and get enough of the moving together in the same direction, which has been difficult this past year in a way that it's never been during any epidemic in our history.
今天，在我们的节目中，除非你与牛群打交道并充分朝着同一个方向齐心协力，否则你无法获得群体免疫力，这在过去的一年中是困难的，在我们历史上的任何流行病期间都从未如此。
Today, we have stories of people trying to steer the herd that is us.
今天，我们看到有人试图引导我们这群人的故事。
We've arrived at Act 2 of our program, Act 2, the Elephant in the Zoom.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕，第二幕，变焦中的大象。
So in the early part of the pandemic, it seemed like the hard part to ending this might be developing a vaccine.
因此，在大流行的早期，结束这种情况的困难部分似乎可能是开发疫苗。
That part basically worked out.
这部分基本上就解决了。
We got several in record time.
我们在创纪录的时间内得到了几个。
But it turns out there's another hard part.
但事实证明还有另一个困难的部分。
Tens of millions of people in the United States are not sure they want to get the vaccine.
美国有数以千万计的人不确定自己是否想要接种疫苗。
One group that's particularly true of-- people who voted for President Trump.
有一个群体尤其如此——投票给特朗普总统的人。
According to one poll, 40% of people who voted for President Trump said they did not plan to get the vaccine compared with 8% of people who voted for President Biden.
一项民意调查显示，投票支持特朗普总统的人中有 40% 表示不打算接种疫苗，而投票支持拜登总统的人只有 8% 表示不打算接种疫苗。
David Kestenbaum has this next story about somebody trying to find something, some word, some fact, some story that can convince Trump Republicans to see this differently and get themselves vaccinated.
大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆（David Kestenbaum）的下一个故事是关于某人试图找到一些东西，一些词，一些事实，一些故事，可以说服特朗普共和党人以不同的方式看待这个问题并让自己接种疫苗。
Here's David.
这是大卫。
The whole thing started with this public health institute in Maryland called the de Beaumont Foundation.
整个事情始于马里兰州的一家名为德博蒙特基金会的公共卫生机构。
They'd been noticing with alarm that not only were Trump voters reluctant to get the vaccine, they were stubbornly so.
他们震惊地注意到，特朗普的选民不仅不愿意接种疫苗，而且还顽固地如此。
Other hesitant groups seemed to be coming around to getting the vaccine, but not the Trump voters.
其他犹豫不决的群体似乎开始接受疫苗，但特朗普选民却没有。
The numbers in surveys hadn't budged in months.
调查中的数字几个月来没有变化。
The head of the foundation, Brian Castrucci, realized, basically, we need someone who speaks Republican.
该基金会的负责人布莱恩·卡斯特鲁奇（Brian Castrucci）意识到，基本上，我们需要一个讲共和党话的人。
That was the group that we needed to reach out to, and we were doing a really poor job of it.
这就是我们需要接触的群体，但我们在这方面做得非常糟糕。
And so go to the guy who knows that group.
所以去找认识这个团体的人吧。
I mean, if I want really good bread, I go to a great baker.
我的意思是，如果我想要真正的好面包，我就会去找一个很棒的面包师。
And so he was the great baker in this case.
所以他是这件事上最出色的面包师。
The great baker?
伟大的面包师？
Frank Luntz, the pollster who is on TV and Fox News all the time.
弗兰克·伦茨 (Frank Luntz) 是一位经常出现在电视和福克斯新闻上的民意调查专家。
He'd been tracking and trying to understand the Republican electorate for decades.
几十年来，他一直在追踪并试图了解共和党选民。
You know, Frank's an institution.
你知道，弗兰克是一个机构。
He has changed people's votes.
他改变了人们的选票。
He's changed people's political ideologies.
他改变了人们的政治意识形态。
I think Frank knows how to use words!
我认为弗兰克知道如何使用文字！
Brian was aware of the odd couple nature of this potential pairing.
布莱恩意识到这对潜在配对的奇怪性质。
He says the public health community tends to be left of center.
他说，公共卫生界往往处于中间偏左的位置。
Frank Luntz was certainly good with words, but in a way some liberals hated him for.
弗兰克·伦茨确实善于言辞，但在某种程度上，一些自由主义者讨厌他。
In the '90s, he was one of the people who worked on Newt Gingrich's Contract with America.
20世纪90年代，他是纽特·金里奇《与美国的契约》的创作者之一。
He helped rebrand the estate tax as a death tax, and advised Republicans to use the words "climate change" instead of "global warming," because it sounded less alarming.
他帮助将遗产税重新命名为死亡税，并建议共和党人使用“气候变化”一词而不是“全球变暖”，因为它听起来不那么令人担忧。
The phrase "government takeover of health care" for Obamacare?
奥巴马医改的“政府接管医疗保健”这句话？
That came out of one of his focus groups.
这是他的一个焦点小组得出的结论。
Basically, he was one of the people that had helped create the very polarization that was now one of the reasons people weren't getting vaccinated.
基本上，他是造成两极分化的人之一，而这也是现在人们不接种疫苗的原因之一。
But for Castrucci's purposes, what better person?
但对于卡斯特鲁奇来说，还有什么更好的人呢？
So he tweeted at Luntz, kind of coyly.
所以他有点腼腆地向伦茨发了推文。
"Know someone who might be able to help?"
“认识可以帮忙的人吗？”
This is Frank Luntz.
这是弗兰克·伦茨。
Frank Luntz And they said, "Well, we figured you'd be too busy, but if you're interested, we would like you." Let me start again.
Frank Luntz 他们说：“好吧，我们认为你会太忙，但如果你感兴趣，我们会喜欢你。”让我重新开始吧。
By the way, I'm having-- I have good days and bad days, and this is a bad day, I will warn you.
顺便说一句，我有 - 我有好日子和坏日子，而这是糟糕的一天，我会警告你。
Frank had a stroke a year ago in January, which is actually one of the reasons he wanted to work on this.
Frank 一年前的一月份中风了，这实际上是他想从事这方面工作的原因之一。
The experience made him really angry with all the people who weren't getting vaccinated.
这次经历让他对所有没有接种疫苗的人感到非常愤怒。
He says the stroke was this thing he probably could have prevented if he'd done what the doctor said.
他说，如果他按照医生说的去做，他可能可以避免中风。
But he didn't take care of himself, didn't take his medication.
但他没有照顾自己，也没有吃药。
And now, seeing people do some version of that, not protecting themselves by getting the vaccine, endangering themselves and others, it was driving him crazy.
现在，看到人们做一些类似的事情，不通过接种疫苗来保护自己，从而危及自己和他人，这让他发疯。
Like, you people are healthy.
就像，你们都很健康。
You don't realize what you have.
你没有意识到你拥有什么。
The stroke affected his left arm and his speech.
中风影响了他的左臂和言语。
I have to think of how I enunciate.
我必须考虑如何表达。
I have to fight-- I used to be confident in doing interviews like this.
我必须奋斗——我以前对做这样的采访很有信心。
They were very easy for me.
它们对我来说很容易。
It was very simple.
很简单。
And it's not simple anymore.
这不再简单了。
I realize when I sit, I sit with this hand clenched, and it doesn't look right.
我意识到当我坐着的时候，我的手是握紧的，看起来不太对劲。
Even when I talk on TV, I tend to talk with my hands now in my pockets, because I don't want people to see that the hand doesn't work right.
即使当我在电视上讲话时，我现在也倾向于把手插在口袋里，因为我不想让人们看到我的手不能正常工作。
So he was in a different spot than usual when the de Beaumont Foundation reached out to him.
因此，当德博蒙特基金会联系他时，他的处境与平常不同。
Frank told the foundation what he'd like to do-- get together a group of Trump Republicans who were reluctant to get the vaccine, a focus group like Frank had done so many times.
弗兰克告诉基金会他想做的事情——将一群不愿接种疫苗的特朗普共和党人聚集在一起，像弗兰克这样的焦点小组已经做过很多次了。
But he wouldn't just ask them their opinions.
但他不会只是询问他们的意见。
He set out as a goal in an hour and a half, he was going to try to change their minds, convince them to get the vaccine.
他设定的目标是在一个半小时内尝试改变他们的想法，说服他们接种疫苗。
He figured, if he could do that, he'd learn how to do it for the millions of other Trump Republicans out there.
他认为，如果他能做到这一点，他就能学会如何为数百万其他特朗普共和党人做到这一点。
Frank had a bit of a strategy, but he says these things involve a lot of improvisation.
弗兰克有一些策略，但他说这些事情涉及很多即兴创作。
He doesn't write questions out in advance.
他不会提前写下问题。
He runs his focus groups in a state of kind of hyper-awareness.
他在一种高度意识的状态下管理他的焦点小组。
He says the main thing he tries to do is really listen to what people are saying, but also the words they're using, the way they're talking.
他说他想做的主要事情是真正倾听人们在说什么，还有他们使用的词语和说话的方式。
And at the same time he's listening, he's also trying to read the reactions of everyone in the room, whether they're looking up or down or fidgeting.
在他倾听的同时，他也试图解读房间里每个人的反应，无论他们是向上看、向下看还是坐立不安。
He thinks he's done thousands of these things over his career.
他认为在他的职业生涯中他已经做了数千起这样的事情。
He once told a reporter, I don't know shit about anything with the exception of what the American people think.
他曾经对记者说，除了美国人民的想法之外，我什么都不知道。
The experiment took place over Zoom on a Saturday afternoon last month.
该实验于上个月的一个周六下午通过 Zoom 进行。
There were 20 people he was going to try to sway, mostly white, middle-aged, everyone in their little boxes on the screen, a bookshelf or a desk or a plant in the background.
他要尝试影响 20 个人，大部分是白人，中年人，每个人都在屏幕上的小盒子里，背景是书架、桌子或植物。
Below each person-- first names and state.
每个人下面都有名字和状态。
Debbie from Georgia, Doug from California, Lisa from Ohio, Patrick from Tennessee, all recruited by Frank's team.
来自乔治亚州的黛比、来自加利福尼亚州的道格、来自俄亥俄州的丽莎、来自田纳西州的帕特里克，都是弗兰克团队招募的。
Frank was very clear at the start about how they'd been selected.
弗兰克一开始就非常清楚他们是如何被选中的。
You all have two things in common-- you all voted for Donald Trump in 2020, and you all expressed at least some hesitation about getting the COVID vaccine.
你们都有两个共同点——你们都在 2020 年投票给了唐纳德·特朗普，而且你们都对接种新冠疫苗至少表示了一些犹豫。
So you represent about 30 million people.
所以你代表了大约 3000 万人。
But as soon as he got into it, Frank suspected there was a problem.
但一进去，弗兰克就怀疑有问题了。
The participants had said when they were recruited that there was some chance they would get the vaccine.
参与者在被招募时表示，他们有机会接种疫苗。
But a lot of them seemed like they might actually be firm no's.
但他们中的很多人看起来实际上可能是坚决拒绝的。
He wondered if they had said they were maybes just because they didn't want to come off like anti-vaxxers.
他想知道他们说自己是可能的人是否只是因为不想表现得像反疫苗者一样。
Frank says that's how they feel they get portrayed in the press.
弗兰克说，这就是他们在媒体上对自己的印象。
If they weren't maybes but were really no's, this was not going to work.
如果他们不是可能而是真的不行，那么这是行不通的。
Explain to me when you hear the word COVID, COVID-19, what word or phrase comes to mind?
请跟我解释一下，当您听到新冠肺炎 (COVID-19) 一词时，您会想到什么单词或短语？
Government manipulation.
政府操纵。
Frank Luntz Marie.
弗兰克·伦茨·玛丽。
I would call it a hyped-up version of the flu.
我将其称为流感的炒作版本。
It was alarming, he said.
他说，这令人震惊。
He'd asked them about a disease, and their answers were all about politics.
他向他们询问了一种疾病，而他们的回答全都是关于政治的。
Here they are on Tony Fauci, the White House's chief medical advisor.
这是白宫首席医疗顾问托尼·福奇。
He asked them about the thing he was hoping to sway them on, the vaccine.
他向他们询问了他希望影响他们的事情，即疫苗。
Michael from Oklahoma.
来自俄克拉荷马州的迈克尔.
Michael Don't hold my freedom hostage.
迈克尔 别拿我的自由当人质。
Oh, my god.
我的天啊。
David Kestenbaum To be clear, COVID is much more deadly than the flu, and the vaccine has gone through extensive testing.
David Kestenbaum 需要明确的是，新冠病毒比流感致命得多，而且疫苗已经经过了广泛的测试。
Maybe the most worrying moment for Frank, a woman named Jen just kind of let drop this thing.
也许是弗兰克最担心的时刻，一个名叫珍的女人刚刚放弃了这件事。
She said her husband had almost died from COVID.
她说她的丈夫差点死于新冠病毒。
Yeah, he was in intensive care for three weeks.
是的，他在重症监护室呆了三个星期。
So then why doesn't that lead you to get a vaccine as soon as possible?
那么为什么不尽快接种疫苗呢？
Because I believe that our bodies naturally can fight off infections, although he did need assistance for his to end or to get better.
因为我相信我们的身体自然可以抵抗感染，尽管他确实需要帮助才能结束或好转。
I also understand people's perspective on how they believe in the vaccine, and it's totally the only way out of this deal.
我也理解人们对疫苗的看法，这完全是摆脱这笔交易的唯一出路。
I respect that.
我尊重这一点。
But for us personally, I don't know.
但对于我们个人来说，我不知道。
I really am highly undoubtful that we'll ever get vaccinated for this, even though it almost killed him.
我真的非常怀疑我们是否会接种这种疫苗，尽管这几乎杀死了他。
I want to say right here, I wasn't allowed to talk to any of the participants.
我想说的是，我不被允许与任何参与者交谈。
Which I wanted to do.
我想做的。
I don't want them to come across as soundbite clichés.
我不希望它们被认为是陈词滥调。
They were willing to put themselves out there, and they spoke pretty candidly.
他们愿意展现自己，而且说话也很坦诚。
So I want to take a minute here to try to give you a sense for some of the things they said over the session, about why they were reluctant to get the vaccine.
因此，我想在这里花一点时间，让您了解他们在会议上所说的一些事情，以及为什么他们不愿意接种疫苗。
Lots of people said they were worried about the long-term side effects from the vaccine.
许多人表示他们担心疫苗的长期副作用。
Lauren, a teacher in New Jersey, said she just didn't feel comfortable with the idea of something so new being injected into her body.
新泽西州的一名教师劳伦说，她只是对将如此新的东西注入她的身体感到不舒服。
An older man said, my fear of the vaccine is more than my fear of getting the illness.
一位老人说，我对疫苗的恐惧超过了对患病的恐惧。
And just to say, the concern about side effects, that's one lots of hesitant groups have.
顺便说一句，对副作用的担忧是许多犹豫不决的群体所面临的问题。
It was the top reason in a survey of Black Americans and in a survey of people in six Latin American countries.
在对美国黑人的调查和对六个拉丁美洲国家的人们的调查中，这是首要原因。
One person in the focus group, but only one, cited concerns he'd heard from a couple of anti-vax doctors.
焦点小组中的一个人（但只有一个人）提到了他从几位反疫苗医生那里听到的担忧。
They'd clearly heard mainstream health messages about the vaccine.
他们清楚地听到了有关疫苗的主流健康信息。
They'd encountered that stuff.
他们遇到过那种东西。
But it was mixed in with so many other things they disagreed with.
但它与许多其他他们不同意的事情混合在一起。
They thought the press didn't always put things in proper perspective when covering the pandemic.
他们认为媒体在报道这一流行病时并不总是以正确的角度看待事情。
Here's Brian from Texas.
这是来自德克萨斯州的布莱恩。
The virus is real, but everybody is ignoring the actual facts of the virus, the great media.
病毒是真实的，但每个人都忽视了病毒的真实事实，伟大的媒体。
If you're over 65 or if you're fat, you're much more likely to get the virus horribly and possibly die from it.
如果您超过 65 岁或者您很胖，您就更有可能严重感染病毒，甚至可能因此死亡。
But if you're not, he says, you're at way less risk of dying.
但如果你不这样做，他说，你的死亡风险就会小得多。
And they totally ignored that.
他们完全忽视了这一点。
The media totally feeds on that and wants to sell that.
媒体完全以此为生，并想推销它。
And everybody that don't think, they just panic.
而那些不思考的人，他们只是惊慌失措。
And people that you thought were normally, sane, intelligent people were totally like, "Oh my god, I'm going to die from this virus."
你认为正常、理智、聪明的人完全会说，“天哪，我会死于这种病毒。”
At some point, Frank showed everyone a PSA by the Ad Council that totally bombed, featured former presidents, including George W.
在某个时候，弗兰克向大家展示了广告委员会的一份公益广告，该公益广告彻底轰炸了其中的前总统，包括乔治·W·布什。
Bush but not President Trump, though even that wouldn't have helped.
布什而不是特朗普总统，尽管这也无济于事。
At the end, the ad urged people to, quote, "do their part." Erin, who lives in Florida, said when people make that kind of argument, it bugs her.
最后，广告敦促人们“尽自己的一份力量”。住在佛罗里达州的艾琳说，当人们提出这样的争论时，她会感到烦恼。
Condescending.
居高临下。
"We're all in this together." People are exhausted of that.
“我们都在一起。”人们对此感到厌倦。
Because we haven't been in it all together.
因为我们还没有一起经历过这一切。
Their kids have gone to private school.
他们的孩子已经上私立学校了。
We're not all in this together.
我们并不在一起。
And I hate when they act like we have been, because we haven't.
我讨厌他们像我们一样行事，因为我们没有。
And finally, underlying all this, politics.
最后，这一切的背后是政治。
Many said they felt like Democrats had exaggerated COVID so they could use it to defeat President Trump.
许多人表示，他们觉得民主党夸大了新冠疫情，以便他们可以利用它来击败特朗普总统。
Some wondered if the drug companies had delayed releasing the vaccine results until after the election.
一些人想知道制药公司是否推迟到大选后才发布疫苗结果。
The head of Pfizer has said he would never do that.
辉瑞公司的负责人表示他永远不会这样做。
I asked Frank what he thought the problem would be that he'd have to overcome?
我问弗兰克，他认为他必须克服的问题是什么？
"I thought the problem was going to be everything," he said.
“我认为问题将是一切，”他说。
That turned out to be right.
事实证明这是对的。
About a half hour in, Frank switched from listening to actually trying to persuade them.
大约半小时后，弗兰克从倾听转向实际试图说服他们。
Here he did have a plan.
在这里他确实有一个计划。
He'd lined up a bunch of high profile guests who were just going to drop into the Zoom meeting.
他让一群即将参加 Zoom 会议的知名嘉宾排队。
Frank put them in a particular order.
弗兰克将它们按特定顺序排列。
He wanted the first person to be someone who really knew about the vaccine in detail.
他希望第一个人是真正详细了解疫苗的人。
Though his choice for this seemed like maybe an odd one, Dr. Tom Frieden, the head of the CDC under Obama.
尽管他的选择似乎有些奇怪，但他选择了奥巴马领导下的疾病预防控制中心主任汤姆·弗里登博士。
Frank didn't introduce him that way.
弗兰克没有这样介绍他。
Now, Tom is the most distinguished leader of the CDC in modern history.
现在，汤姆是疾病预防控制中心现代历史上最杰出的领导人。
He will deny that introduction, but this guy knows his stuff.
他会否认这种介绍，但这家伙知道他的东西。
Frieden gave a pretty standard public health spiel.
弗里登发表了相当标准的公共卫生演讲。
Now, if you ask me, how can you know this isn't going to have a problem 10 years down the line, I don't.
现在，如果你问我，你怎么知道这在 10 年后不会出现问题，我不知道。
I can't tell you with certainty.
我不能肯定地告诉你。
But I can explain how the vaccine works.
但我可以解释疫苗是如何发挥作用的。
Frank went around for a reaction, to see how it had gone.
弗兰克四处寻找反应，看看情况如何。
All true.
都是真的。
Heard the science before, but it doesn't line up with what the response to the virus was on a federal level and a state level.
以前听说过科学，但它与联邦层面和州层面对病毒的反应并不相符。
And therefore?
因此呢？
Woman I'm not going to take a vaccine.
女士，我不会接种疫苗。
At some point during this whole thing, you can see Frank look down.
在整个过程中的某个时刻，你可以看到弗兰克低下头。
I got my head in my hand.
我把头抱在手里。
They can see me, so I had to be really careful.
他们可以看到我，所以我必须非常小心。
But I know that a couple moments, I went down, and I was doing texts at the time.
但我知道有一会儿我就倒下了，当时我正在发短信。
And I actually said, "I'm done.
我实际上说：“我完成了。
This is going to fail."
这将会失败。”
That's really what was going through your head.
这确实是你脑子里的想法。
That's half.
那是一半。
OK, yeah.
好的，是的。
Fuck.
他妈的。
I don't want to fail.
我不想失败。
Yeah.
是的。
The head of the de Beaumont Foundation that was paying for this, Brian Castrucci, felt nauseous at this point.
支付这笔费用的德博蒙特基金会的负责人布莱恩·卡斯特鲁奇此时感到恶心。
He told me he actually pulled over a trash can.
他告诉我他实际上拉了一个垃圾桶。
It seemed like nothing was going to work.
似乎什么都行不通。
Frank had reinforcements.
弗兰克得到了增援。
Next up were the politicians, all supporters of President Trump, who presumably these voters might like and listen to.
接下来是政治家，他们都是特朗普总统的支持者，想必这些选民可能会喜欢并倾听他们的意见。
Frank said when he reached out to them, they were game, but were like, can you give us some talking points?
弗兰克说，当他联系他们时，他们很感兴趣，但他们说，你能给我们一些谈话要点吗？
Frank told them to just be themselves.
弗兰克告诉他们要做自己。
The whole point was to just try stuff and see what might work.
重点是尝试一些东西，看看什么可能有效。
First up was Senator Bill Cassidy from Louisiana, who's also a doctor.
首先发言的是来自路易斯安那州的参议员比尔·卡西迪，他也是一名医生。
He offered a seatbelt analogy.
他提供了一个安全带的类比。
And so I compare this to wearing a seatbelt.
所以我将其与系安全带进行比较。
You don't think you're going to get in a wreck, but you're certainly glad if you happen to get in a wreck, that you're wearing the seatbelt.
你不认为自己会陷入困境，但如果你碰巧陷入困境，你肯定会很高兴你系了安全带。
Then Kevin McCarthy joined the Zoom, the top Republican in the House of Representatives.
随后凯文·麦卡锡加入了众议院共和党领袖Zoom。
President Trump got the vaccine.
特朗普总统接种了疫苗。
He got COVID, but he also understood--
他感染了新冠病毒，但他也明白——
Brad Wenstrup, a congressman and doctor, also tried.
国会议员兼医生布拉德·温斯特鲁普 (Brad Wenstrup) 也尝试过。
And pieces of what they said did seem to resonate and loosen things up, but it didn't feel like anyone had really moved.
他们所说的一些内容似乎确实引起了共鸣，让事情变得放松，但感觉没有人真正感动。
Frank said he thought this part would have gone better.
弗兰克说他认为这部分会做得更好。
One of the surprising takeaways from the session was just how ineffective messages about the vaccine are when they're coming from politicians.
这次会议令人惊讶的收获之一是，当有关疫苗的信息来自政客时，它们是多么无效。
I've watched the recording of this whole focus group several times, trying to figure out the moment things started to shift, and why.
我已经多次观看了整个焦点小组的录音，试图找出事情开始发生变化的那一刻以及原因。
Something happened just after this that took Frank by surprise.
就在这之后发生了一件让弗兰克大吃一惊的事情。
Frank went back to Tom Frieden, who had run the CDC for so long.
弗兰克回到了汤姆·弗里登（Tom Frieden）那里，他已经领导了疾病预防控制中心这么长时间。
He's a physician, not a politician.
他是一名医生，不是政治家。
Frank says there's an order in which things need to be communicated to move someone.
弗兰克说，要移动某人，需要按照一定的顺序进行沟通。
And he thought now they were ready for facts.
他认为现在他们已经准备好接受事实了。
One woman in the group said basically emotions work for Democrats, we want facts.
该团体中的一名女性表示，基本上情绪对民主党人有用，我们需要事实。
It came up a bunch.
它出现了一堆。
Frieden had been listening, and it was like he'd been collecting all the concerns and questions he'd been hearing and lining up responses in his head.
弗里登一直在倾听，就好像他一直在收集他所听到的所有担忧和问题，并在脑海中排列答案。
And in one minute, he just spit out these five things he wanted everyone to know as clearly as he could.
一分钟之内，他就吐出了这五件事，他想让大家尽可能清楚地知道。
One, if you get infected with the virus, it will go all over your body and stay there for at least a week and be much more likely to cause you long-term problems than the vaccine.
第一，如果您感染了病毒，它会遍布您的全身并在那里停留至少一周，并且比疫苗更有可能给您带来长期问题。
Two, if you get the vaccine, it will prime your immune system, but then the vaccine is gone.
第二，如果您接种了疫苗，它会启动您的免疫系统，但随后疫苗就会消失。
It will not be with you anymore.
它不会再和你在一起了。
Three, more than 95% of the doctors who have been offered this vaccine have gotten it as soon as they can.
第三，超过 95% 的接种疫苗的医生都尽快接种了疫苗。
Four, the more we vaccinate, the faster we can get back to growing our economy and getting jobs.
第四，我们接种的疫苗越多，我们就能越快恢复经济增长和就业。
And five, if people get vaccinated, we're going to save at least 100,000 lives of Americans who would otherwise be killed by COVID.
第五，如果人们接种疫苗，我们将挽救至少 10 万美国人的生命，否则他们将死于新冠病毒。
OK, I want to show of hands.
好的，我想举手。
How many of you would say that those five facts are impactful to you?
你们中有多少人会说这五个事实对您有影响？
Impactful.
有影响力。
Yeah.
是的。
Frank Luntz Wow.
弗兰克·伦茨 哇。
Wow, that's a lot of you.
哇，你们很多人。
Frank says in his experience, there's kind of two things you need to move someone.
弗兰克说，根据他的经验，要感动一个人需要做两件事。
Two components to a person making a decision.
一个人做出决定的两个组成部分。
They're the facts, which they now had.
它们就是事实，他们现在已经拥有了。
The other one is actually the thing they seem skeptical about, emotion.
另一个实际上是他们似乎持怀疑态度的东西，即情感。
And that is what the last person to speak delivered.
这就是最后一个发言的人所说的。
This last guest Frank didn't know what he was going to say exactly, but he put him last intentionally-- former New Jersey Governor Chris Christie.
最后一位嘉宾弗兰克不知道他到底要说什么，但他故意把他放在最后——前新泽西州州长克里斯克里斯蒂。
Christie didn't give a speech.
克里斯蒂没有发表讲话。
He didn't try to persuade them to get the vaccine.
他没有试图说服他们接种疫苗。
He just kind of said, here's what happened to me.
他只是说，这就是发生在我身上的事情。
Maybe you'll find it useful.
也许你会发现它很有用。
I'm going to play you a bunch of what he said.
我要给你播放他说的一堆内容。
Well, I think what I'd say to you is talk about three different experiences that I've had with COVID.
好吧，我想我要对你们说的是我在新冠病毒方面的三种不同经历。
And the point I want to try to make is how random it is.
我想表达的一点是它是多么随机。
And as Patrick's saying, he had a cold for three days and didn't really feel all that badly.
正如帕特里克所说，他感冒了三天，但并没有感觉那么难受。
You all know how I got it.
你们都知道我是怎么得到它的。
I went into what was supposed to be the safest place in America, the White House.
我走进了被认为是美国最安全的地方——白宫。
And I went, and I got tested every day as I walked in.
我去了，每天走进去的时候我都会接受测试。
I'm brought to the Eisenhower Building, swabbed, had to wait there for the test results to come back.
我被带到艾森豪威尔大楼，接受了拭子检测，不得不在那里等待测试结果回来。
If it came back negative, which they did every day that I was there, I could then go into the West Wing.
如果结果呈阴性（我在那里的时候他们每天都会这样做），我就可以进入西翼。
Christie was the first person to tell an actual story.
克里斯蒂是第一个讲述真实故事的人。
I hadn't heard all the details before.
我之前没有听说过所有细节。
This all happened when he was helping prep the first presidential debate.
这一切都发生在他帮助准备第一场总统辩论时。
And there were seven people in the Map Room at the White House for about 16 hours over four days together.
四天内，七个人在白宫地图室待了大约 16 个小时。
And of those seven people, six of them got COVID.
这七个人中，有六人感染了新冠病毒。
In the place that was the safest, most tested place in America.
那是美国最安全、最经受考验的地方。
I got it, and Hope Hicks got it, and Kellyanne Conway got it, and the president got it.
我明白了，霍普·希克斯明白了，凯莉安·康威明白了，总统也明白了。
Bill Stepien got it.
比尔·斯特皮恩明白了。
And Stephen Miller.
还有史蒂芬·米勒。
All of us got it.
我们所有人都明白了。
All of us got it at a bit of a different time.
我们所有人都在不同的时间得到了它。
And all of us got it at a bit of a different severity.
我们所有人都受到了不同的严重程度。
And by randomness, I mean, I was the sickest of everybody, and had the longest hospitalization.
我的意思是，随机性是，我是所有人中病情最严重的，住院时间最长的。
The next sickest person was the president.
下一个病情最严重的人是总统。
But the next sickest person after that was Hope Hicks, who was the youngest and most fit person in that room.
但此后病情最严重的人是霍普·希克斯（Hope Hicks），他是房间里最年轻、最健康的人。
Someone who, you know, ran four to five miles every day, in her early 30s, and was the most fit.
你知道，她三十岁出头，每天跑四到五英里，是最健康的。
She was out of it for a good 10 days, and never had to be hospitalized.
她已经康复了整整十天，而且从来没有住院过。
But called me during it, and told me it was the sickest she'd ever been.
但期间给我打电话，告诉我这是她有生以来病得最严重的一次。
Two other people in my family, a 64-year-old cousin, who was a smoker.
我家里还有两个人，一个是 64 岁的表弟，也是个烟民。
And so she had some potential problem, got it.
所以她有一些潜在的问题，明白了。
Felt OK in the beginning, wound up hospitalized.
刚开始感觉还好，后来住院了。
Her husband, 63, no preexisting conditions, great shape.
她的丈夫63岁，无既往病史，身材很好。
In fact, was still working every day as an active longshoreman on the docks in New Jersey.
事实上，他仍然每天在新泽西州的码头上担任活跃的码头工人。
He got sick as well.
他也病了。
Caught it presumably from his wife.
估计是从他妻子那里传染的。
They both wound up being hospitalized.
他们最终都住院了。
And two weeks ago, they both passed away.
两周前，他们都去世了。
It wasn't hard to read the room.
阅读房间并不难。
Everyone was paying attention.
每个人都在关注。
One person said, "I wasn't expecting him to say that, that they had passed away." Two were surprised to hear that Hope Hicks ran four miles a day and had still gotten so sick.
一位网友表示：“我没想到他会这么说，他们已经去世了。”两人惊讶地发现，霍普·希克斯每天跑四英里，却仍然病得很重。
Christie told them he sympathized with their skepticism about politicians on this issue.
克里斯蒂告诉他们，他同情他们在这个问题上对政客的怀疑。
Like the presidents in that vaccine PSA, "Listen," he said.
就像疫苗公益广告中的总统一样，“听着，”他说。
"I know all those people.
“我认识所有这些人。
I've met all those people.
我见过所有这些人。
I'm not asking them whether I should take the vaccine."
我不是在问他们我是否应该接种疫苗。”
--politics.
- 政治。
Politicians screw up almost everything we touch.
政客几乎搞砸了我们接触到的一切。
We really do.
我们确实如此。
That's the understatement of the century.
这是本世纪的轻描淡写。
Right?
正确的？
We just do.
我们就是这样做。
And so I understand why people are skeptical.
所以我理解为什么人们持怀疑态度。
But you know what?
但你知道吗？
The scientists and the doctors are saying this is the right thing to do.
科学家和医生说这是正确的做法。
So since I don't know anything about medicine, I'm going to follow their advice.
既然我对医学一无所知，我就听从他们的建议。
The session ran long, to almost 2 and 1/2 hours.
会议时间很长，几乎达到 2又 1/2 小时。
And maybe it was the accumulation of everything they had heard, but suddenly after Chris Christie, it was like they were in a different world.
也许这是他们所听到的一切的积累，但在克里斯·克里斯蒂之后，他们突然就好像进入了一个不同的世界。
This is Matthew, who lives in Michigan.
这是马修，住在密歇根州。
He said he'd heard a lot of this stuff before, but somehow it was landing differently.
他说他以前听过很多这样的事情，但不知何故，它的落地方式有所不同。
At the beginning, he had been 90% against getting the vaccine.
一开始，他有 90% 的人反对接种疫苗。
He'd completely flipped.
他彻底精神崩溃了。
My biggest thing is like, these are great-- this is great information.
我最重要的是，这些都很棒——这是很棒的信息。
It's just, how do we get this information out to-- to the public, especially us, you know, Trump voters and that the masses of us are going to believe it?
只是，我们如何将这些信息传达给公众，尤其是我们，你知道，特朗普选民，并且我们大众会相信它？
And I don't think we're going to move everyone, but how do we get it out there?
我不认为我们会感动所有人，但我们如何才能将其传播出去呢？
David Kestenbaum Here's Sue, who lives in Iowa.
David Kestenbaum Here's Sue, who lives in Iowa.
I think what I've learned is, I probably need to separate my reaction to the government involvement in this, and look at just the science.
我认为我学到的是，我可能需要区分我对政府参与此事的反应，只关注科学。
I'm a pharmacist.
我是一名药剂师。
I used to work for Merck.
我曾经在默克公司工作。
I know all their vaccines are good products.
我知道他们的疫苗都是好产品。
I trust them.
我相信他们。
What I don't trust is the government telling me what I need to do when they haven't led us down the right road, in my view, to this day.
我不相信政府告诉我我需要做什么，但在我看来，直到今天他们还没有带领我们走上正确的道路。
So if I can set the government aside and just look at the science and think about it from a medical standpoint, I think I'm OK.
因此，如果我能把政府放在一边，只看科学并从医学的角度思考，我想我没问题。
Frank went around to everyone to see where they started and where they ended up, and they had all moved.
弗兰克走遍了每个人，看看他们从哪里开始，到哪里结束，他们都搬走了。
So I think my opinion has changed.
所以我想我的看法已经改变了。
Before I would have said I was in the middle of the fence on whether or not I would get the vaccination.
之前我会说我对于是否要接种疫苗犹豫不决。
And now, I'm leaning a little more towards getting the vaccination.
现在，我更倾向于接种疫苗。
So I probably went from a 5 out of 10 to maybe a 7 out of 10.
所以我可能从满分 10 分 5 分变成了满分 7 分。
I would say I was probably 80% against when this started today.
我想说，当今天开始时，我可能有 80% 的人反对。
Now I'm probably 50-50-ish.
现在我大概50-50岁左右。
Yeah, when I came in, I was 50-50.
是的，当我进来的时候，我是50-50。
And I still want to know what's in it.
And I still want to know what's in it.
I still want to find-- I want to know what's in the vaccine.
我仍然想找到——我想知道疫苗里有什么。
I don't want-- I want to know what the ingredients are.
我不想——我想知道成分是什么。
But I'm probably about 80, 85% sure that I will get the vaccine.
但我大概有 80%、85% 的把握我会接种疫苗。
I was unlikely to get it unless I was forced to, to start with.
除非是被迫，否则我不太可能得到它。
So maybe 2 out of 10.
所以可能十分之二。
And now I'm probably 9 out of 10 going to get it.
现在我可能十分之九会得到它。
Here's what Frank was thinking right then.
这就是弗兰克当时的想法。
"Fuck, yeah." I mean, that's literally-- those were the two words I thought to myself.
“操，是啊。”我的意思是，这就是字面上的意思——这是我心里想的两个词。
So a skeptic would say, OK, you've demonstrated-- what you've demonstrated here in this focus group is that if you get 20 people in Zoom with the former head of the CDC, a former governor, a senator, the leader of the Republicans in the House and another representative, then yes, you can move them, and to where they say they'll consider it.
所以怀疑论者会说，好吧，你已经证明了——你在这个焦点小组中所证明的是，如果你在 Zoom 中有 20 个人，其中包括 CDC 前负责人、前州长、参议员、众议院共和党领袖和另一位代表，那么是的，你可以将他们转移到他们说会考虑的地方。
But you can't repeat that with millions of people.
但你不能对数百万人重复同样的事情。
There are plenty of reasons to be skeptical about focus groups.
有很多理由对焦点小组持怀疑态度。
There are movies that test well in focus groups but bomb at the box office.
有些电影在焦点小组中表现良好，但票房却惨败。
And Frank hasn't followed up to see if any of the people have actually gotten the vaccine, though he says he will.
弗兰克还没有跟进看看是否有人真正接种了疫苗，尽管他说他会的。
I asked him about that moment at the end.
最后我问他那一刻。
Wasn't it possible people were just being swayed by the person who'd gone before them, that he was getting some form of groupthink and not actual change?
难道人们只是被前任所影响，认为他正在得到某种形式的群体思维，而不是真正的改变吗？
He didn't think so, not with this group.
他不这么认为，和这群人不一样。
These people have no problem speaking out.
These people have no problem speaking out.
They have no problem saying no. And they did so all through the first half or 2/3 of the group.
他们毫不犹豫地说“不”。他们在整个小组的上半场或 2/3 时间里都是这样做的。
They rejected everything.
They rejected everything.
Yeah, but at the end, they're all using kind of similar language.
是的，但最后，他们都使用类似的语言。
I was talking to someone about it.
I was talking to someone about it.
They're like, you know, that's actually a powerful thing, if that's what's going on there.
他们就像，你知道，这实际上是一件很强大的事情，如果那是那里发生的事情的话。
Because that is how things really get going in the real world is, like, you know people around you who have gotten the vaccine.
因为这就是现实世界中事情的真正发展方式，比如，你知道你周围的人已经接种了疫苗。
And so it becomes normal, and you think maybe I'll get it, too.
所以这变得很正常，你认为也许我也会得到它。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
But they're trying to decide who to listen to.
But they're trying to decide who to listen to.
Here's what Frank said he learned from the whole thing.
以下是弗兰克所说的他从整件事中学到的东西。
The basic facts really did matter, but they needed to be presented in the right way.
基本事实确实很重要，但需要以正确的方式呈现。
One participant put it like this.
One participant put it like this.
"We want to be educated, not indoctrinated." And also, you need the right person to deliver the facts.
"We want to be educated, not indoctrinated."而且，您需要合适的人来提供事实。
And Frank thinks the most persuasive messenger is probably people's own doctors.
弗兰克认为最有说服力的使者可能是人们自己的医生。
I talked to a researcher who studies vaccine hesitancy, who totally agreed about this.
我与一位研究疫苗犹豫的研究人员交谈过，他完全同意这一点。
Getting a vaccine, some foreign thing injected into your body, that's a medical decision.
接种疫苗，将一些异物注射到您的体内，这是一个医疗决定。
And for a lot of people, the person they trust for that isn't the president, or some celebrity, or the TV news.
对于很多人来说，他们信任的人不是总统、名人或电视新闻。
It's their doctor, who they've chosen, who, if you're over a certain age, you've probably been through some real stuff with.
这是他们的医生，他们选择的医生，如果你超过了一定的年龄，你可能已经经历过一些真实的事情。
They know the facts, and they're a person you might have an emotional connection to.
他们了解事实，并且是一个可能与你有情感联系的人。
Again, those two ingredients-- facts and emotion.
再说一遍，这两个要素——事实和情感。
Frank's dream is that doctors will reach out to their patients, maybe record a video of themselves on their laptop or phone, and send it out.
弗兰克的梦想是医生能够接触到他们的病人，也许可以在笔记本电脑或手机上录制自己的视频，然后发送出去。
There is an ad in the works, based on this focus group.
有一个基于这个焦点小组的广告正在制作中。
It'll feature a celebrity who plays a doctor on TV, like Gray's Anatomy or The Good Doctor, but appearing with their own actual doctor, talking about the vaccine.
它将由一位名人在电视上扮演医生，如《实习医生格蕾》或《良医》，但与他们自己真正的医生一起出现，谈论疫苗。
Which, who knows, this group seems skeptical of any kind of preproduced persuasion.
谁知道呢，这个团体似乎对任何预先制作的说服持怀疑态度。
For me, maybe the most remarkable thing about this little experiment is the simple fact of how it ended up.
对我来说，这个小实验最引人注目的地方也许就是它的结果。
Over two hours, some thing or combination of things did seem to move people.
两个多小时里，有些事情或者事情的组合确实让人感动。
It really could have failed, but it didn't.
It really could have failed, but it didn't.
At the end, there was one final person to talk, who hadn't really said a lot in the focus group up to this point.
最后，最后一个人发言，到目前为止，他在焦点小组中还没有真正说过很多话。
It was Frank, who talked about the moment he did the thing that he was hoping they will all do.
弗兰克谈到了他做了他希望他们都会做的事情的那一刻。
When they put that needle in my arm for the first vaccine, I really felt like this was the pain of life.
当他们把第一针疫苗注射到我的手臂时，我真的觉得这就是人生的痛苦。
And I am so grateful to our medical professionals, and so grateful to our pharmaceutical companies and American ingenuity.
我非常感谢我们的医疗专业人员，非常感谢我们的制药公司和美国人的聪明才智。
And I wish that you all could feel what I felt.
And I wish that you all could feel what I felt.
Because this, to me, was the ultimate definition of freedom.
因为对我来说，这就是自由的最终定义。
It's the ultimate definition of liberty.
It's the ultimate definition of liberty.
It's the ultimate definition of the country that I'm so lucky to be born here.
这是这个国家的终极定义，我很幸运能够出生在这里。
Because I know you.
因为我认识你。
I don't want to ever hear that anything happened wrong to you.
我不想听到你发生了什么事。
So please be careful.
所以请小心。
Life is precious.
生命是宝贵的。
Life is special.
生活很特别。
Let's do everything we can to preserve it.
Let's do everything we can to preserve it.
Thank you very much.
非常感谢。
Nice.
好的。
David Kestenbaum Frank told me he's gotten emotional in focus groups before, but usually it's him yelling.
大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆·弗兰克 (David Kestenbaum Frank) 告诉我，他以前在焦点小组中也曾变得情绪化，但通常是他大喊大叫。
This was a first.
这是第一次。
David Kestenbaum.
大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。
He's our program's senior editor.
He's our program's senior editor.
[MUSIC - MARGO GURYAN, "PLEASE BELIEVE ME"]
[MUSIC - MARGO GURYAN, "PLEASE BELIEVE ME"]
(SINGING) Please believe me.
(SINGING) Please believe me.
I never lied.
我从来不撒谎。
I only tried and tried and tried to make you understand.
我只是尽力让你明白。
I didn't explain at first, but that was for you.
一开始我没有解释，但那是给你的。
You might have believed the worst, and the worst wasn't true.
你可能相信最坏的情况，但最坏的情况并不是真的。
I did, I did, I swear.
我做到了，我做到了，我发誓。
I did it all for you.
我所做的一切都是为了你。
Our program was produced today by Miki Meek, and Aviva deKornfeld, Anna Maria Barry-Jester from Kaiser Health News as our guest editor.
今天我们的节目由凯撒健康新闻的 Miki Meek 和 Aviva deKornfeld、Anna Maria Barry-Jester 作为我们的客座编辑制作。
People who helped put out show together they include Susan Burton, Ben Calhoun, Dana Chivvis, Sean Cole, Damien Graf, Chana Joffe-Walt, Seth Lind, Lina Misitzis, Katherine Rae Mondo, Nadia Reiman, Ari Saperstein, Robyn Semien, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, and Julie Whitaker.
共同帮助举办演出的人包括 Susan Burton、Ben Calhoun、Dana Chivvis、Sean Cole、Damien Graf、Chana Joffe-Walt、Seth Lind、Lina Misitzis、Katherine Rae Mondo、Nadia Reiman、Ari Saperstein、Robyn Semien、Christopher Swetala、Matt Tierney 和 Julie Whitaker。
Our managing editor is Sarah Abdurrahman.
我们的总编辑是萨拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sarah Abdurrahman)。
Our senior editor is David Kestenbaum.
我们的高级编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。
Our executive editor is Emanuele Berry.
我们的执行编辑是 Emanuele Berry。
Special thanks today to Jim Hart, Michelle Smith, Lauren Weber, Hannah Recht, Kat DeBurgh, Marm Kilpatrick, Katie McMahon, Alex Moehring, David Lazer, Crystal Son, Amanda Moss, and KZSC radio at Uc Santa Cruz.
今天特别感谢 Jim Hart、Michelle Smith、Lauren Weber、Hannah Recht、Kat DeBurgh、Marm Kilpatrick、Katie McMahon、Alex Moehring、David Lazer、Crystal Son、Amanda Moss 和加州大学圣克鲁斯分校的 KZSC 电台。
Our website thisamericanlife.org, where you can stream our archive of over 700 episodes for absolutely free.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org，您可以在其中完全免费地播放我们的 700 多集档案。
Also there's videos.
还有视频。
There's lists of favorite shows.
有最喜欢的节目列表。
There's tons of other stuff there, too.
There's tons of other stuff there, too.
Again, thisamericanlife.org.
再说一次，thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange, thanks as always to our program's confounder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出，这要感谢我们节目的创始人托里·马拉蒂亚 (Torey Malatia) 先生。
You know, he has been so dismayed lately about the politicization of the newspaper crossword puzzle ever since Joe Biden was elected.
你知道，自从乔·拜登当选以来，他最近对报纸填字游戏的政治化感到非常沮丧。
Don't get him started.
别让他开始。
There were words used like "communist" and "tyrant" and "fascist."
其中使用了“共产主义”、“暴君”和“法西斯”等词语。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
[MUSIC - MARGO GURYAN, "PLEASE BELIEVE ME"]
[音乐 - MARGO GURYAN，“请相信我”]
(SINGING) Please believe me.
（唱歌）请相信我。
You'll never get rid of someone, who did.
你永远无法摆脱某个人，而他却做到了。
He did.
他做到了。
I swear, I did it all you.
我发誓，这一切都是我做的。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。