732: Secrets - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #732 | November 11, 2022 732: Secrets Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 732 集 | 2022 年 11 月 11 日 732：秘密 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
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如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Susan Burton It's This American Life from WBEZ Chicago.
序言：序言 苏珊·伯顿 《这就是美国生活》，来自 WBEZ 芝加哥。
I'm Susan Burton sitting in for Ira Glass today.
我是苏珊·伯顿，今天代理艾拉·格拉斯。
There are these videos I've been watching-- videos of female politicians telling very personal stories.
我一直在观看这些视频——女性政客讲述非常个人的故事的视频。
Here's one of them.
这是其中之一。
It shows Gretchen Whitmer.
它显示了格雷琴·惠特默。
She's now the governor of Michigan, but she's speaking here a few years ago when she was a member of the state legislature.
她现在是密歇根州州长，但几年前她还是州立法机构成员时就在这里发表了讲话。
I've said it before, and I will say it again.
我以前已经说过了，我还会再说一遍。
This is by far one of the most misogynistic proposals I've ever seen in the Michigan legislature.
这是迄今为止我在密歇根州立法机构见过的最厌恶女性的提案之一。
Whitmer's explaining why she's voting no on a bill that would forbid women from using insurance to cover abortions, unless they bought separate abortion insurance, what Whitmer calls "rape insurance."
惠特默解释了为什么她对一项禁止妇女使用保险来支付堕胎费用的法案投了反对票，除非她们购买单独的堕胎保险，惠特默称之为“强奸保险”。
And for those of you who want to act aghast that I'd use a term like "rape insurance" to describe the proposal here in front of us, you should be even more offended that it's absolutely accurate description of what this proposal requires.
对于那些因为我使用“强奸保险”这样的术语来描述我们面前的提案而感到震惊的人来说，你们应该更生气，因为它绝对准确地描述了该提案的要求。
This tells women that were raped and became pregnant that they should have thought ahead and bought special insurance for it.
这告诉那些被强奸而怀孕的女性应该未雨绸缪，并为此购买专门的保险。
She's been talking for several minutes, when suddenly she stops, sets her papers down.
她已经说了几分钟了，突然停了下来，放下了文件。
I have a lot more prepared remarks here, but I think it's important for me to just mention a couple of things.
我在这里还有很多准备好的发言，但我认为对我来说重要的是提几件事。
So I'm about to tell you something that I've not shared with many people in my life.
所以我要告诉你们一些我一生中没有与很多人分享过的事情。
But over 20 years ago, I was a victim of rape.
但20多年前，我是强奸的受害者。
And thank god it didn't result in a pregnancy, because I can't imagine going through what I went through and then having to consider what to do about an unwanted pregnancy from an attacker.
感谢上帝，它没有导致怀孕，因为我无法想象经历我所经历的事情，然后不得不考虑如何处理攻击者意外怀孕的情况。
The whole time Wittmer talks, she grips the sides of the lectern.
在威特默讲话的整个过程中，她一直紧握着讲台的两侧。
Her face looks like she's in pain.
她的脸看起来很痛苦。
I am not enjoying talking about it.
我不喜欢谈论它。
It's something I've hidden for a long time, but I think you need to see the face of the women that you are impacting by this vote today.
这是我隐藏了很长时间的事情，但我认为你需要看看今天受到这次投票影响的女性的面孔。
I ask that my comments be my no vote explanation.
我要求我的评论成为我不投票的解释。
My no vote explanation, she says.
我的不投票解释，她说。
Whitmer's story wasn't planned.
惠特默的故事并不是计划好的。
She said later that she decided to tell her secret in that moment, standing at the mic.
她后来说，在那一刻，站在麦克风前，她决定说出自己的秘密。
As soon as she left the floor and got into her car, Whitmer called her father.
她一离开楼层，钻进车里，惠特默就给她父亲打电话。
She'd never told him that she'd been raped.
她从来没有告诉过他她被强奸了。
She didn't want him to hear about it on the news that night.
她不想让他在那天晚上的新闻中听到这件事。
She hadn't expected to tell the Michigan legislature before she told him.
在告诉他之前，她没想到会告诉密歇根州立法机构。
I wondered if the call to her father was harder.
我想知道给她父亲打电话是否更困难。
I think it's sometimes easier to tell a secret in public than in private-- safer to have that distance.
我认为有时在公共场合说出秘密比私下更容易——保持这样的距离更安全。
When I first saw Whitmer's video a year ago, I was on the verge of revealing a secret in a very public way in a book that was about to be published.
一年前，当我第一次看到惠特默的视频时，我正准备在一本即将出版的书中以非常公开的方式揭露一个秘密。
I'd written a memoir about my eating disorder.
我写了一本关于我的饮食失调的回忆录。
And until recently, that eating disorder, it had been a secret from everyone in my life.
直到最近，饮食失调一直是我生活中每个人的秘密。
Sometimes people say "everyone," and then follow it with an "except," like, except my mom and my best friend.
有时人们会说“每个人”，然后跟一个“例外”，比如，除了我妈妈和我最好的朋友。
I really do mean everyone.
我真的指的是所有人。
Not even my husband knew, and we'd been together for 25 years.
连我丈夫都不知道，我们已经在一起 25 年了。
I never talked about it, and I'd also never been in therapy for it.
我从未谈论过它，也从未接受过治疗。
When I finally did seek help, I was 45.
当我最终寻求帮助时，我已经 45 岁了。
In the very first session, my therapist, trying to get the story straight, or maybe just trying to get me to hear how absurd this sounded, said, you wrote a whole book about this, but you've never talked about it with anyone?
在第一次治疗中，我的治疗师试图弄清楚这个故事，或者只是想让我听听这听起来多么荒谬，他说，你写了一整本书关于这个，但你从来没有和任何人谈论过它？
That was right.
没错。
I'd gone to see the therapist partly because it did seem kind of messed up to me, what I'd done.
我去看治疗师的部分原因是因为我所做的事情对我来说确实有点混乱。
I knew it was just as urgent to understand my relationship with secrets as my relationship with food.
我知道了解我与秘密的关系就像了解我与食物的关系一样紧迫。
That's where I was when I watched Whitmer's speech, thinking a lot about secrets and why we tell them and the form they take when we do.
当我观看惠特默的演讲时，我就在那里，思考了很多关于秘密、我们为什么要告诉它们以及我们告诉它们时它们采取的形式的问题。
What made Whitmer's speech so powerful was that her secret was not just a confession.
惠特默的演讲之所以如此有力，是因为她的秘密不仅仅是坦白。
It was an argument.
这是一场争论。
It was told to persuade.
据说是要劝说。
I was moved by her video, and I went looking for others like it.
我被她的视频感动了，于是我去寻找其他类似的视频。
Of course, politicians tell personal stories and speeches all the time, but disclosing something you've kept private for years and doing it in a legislative session, sometimes spontaneously, that's pretty new.
当然，政客们总是讲述个人故事和演讲，但披露一些你多年来一直保密的事情并在立法会议上这样做，有时是自发的，这是相当新鲜的。
Almost every example I turned up was about sexual trauma, which, I mean, there are a bunch of reasons for this, but a big one is the increasing number of bills that try to restrict access to abortion.
我发现的几乎每个例子都与性创伤有关，我的意思是，造成这种情况的原因有很多，但其中一个重要原因是试图限制堕胎的法案越来越多。
I watched videos from all over the country-- Victoria Steele in Arizona, Theresa Fedor in Ohio, Mandy Wright in Wisconsin, Nancy Mace in South Carolina.
我观看了来自全国各地的视频——亚利桑那州的维多利亚·斯蒂尔（Victoria Steele）、俄亥俄州的特里萨·费多尔（Theresa Fedor）、威斯康星州的曼迪·赖特（Mandy Wright）、南卡罗来纳州的南希·梅斯（Nancy Mace）。
One of the things I wondered about was what prompted them to speak.
我想知道的一件事是什么促使他们说话。
Like what exactly made them stand up and say it?
究竟是什么让他们站起来说出这句话？
A couple said they were infuriated by the conversation in the room, comments like women lie about being raped.
一对夫妇表示，他们对房间里的谈话感到愤怒，这些评论就像女性谎称自己被强奸一样。
And I wondered what it felt like to say the secret.
我想知道说出这个秘密是什么感觉。
When Yuh-Line Niou disclosed to the New York state assembly that, at age 13, she'd been abused by a teacher, she drew attention to what was happening in her body as she spoke.
当牛玉莲 (Yuh-Line Niou) 向纽约州议会透露，她在 13 岁时曾被老师虐待时，她在讲话时提请人们注意她身体上发生的情况。
I never speak on this bill for this reason because I literally can't stop shaking.
由于这个原因，我从未就这项法案发表过言论，因为我真的无法停止颤抖。
Thank you so much.
太感谢了。
Just a couple of weeks ago, there was another similar video that got a lot of attention from New York Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.
就在几周前，还有另一个类似的视频引起了纽约国会女议员亚历山大·奥卡西奥-科尔特斯的广泛关注。
She was talking about the riot at the Capitol, and then she revealed this.
她正在谈论国会大厦的骚乱，然后她透露了这一点。
I'm a survivor of sexual assault, and I haven't told many people that in my life.
我是性侵犯的幸存者，我一生中没有告诉过很多人。
Ocasio-Cortez didn't say this in a legislative session.
奥卡西奥-科尔特斯在立法会议上没有这么说。
Her video was on Instagram Live.
她的视频在 Instagram 上直播。
But it felt like the others I'd watched in that she was using her secret to make an argument-- in this case, about the impact of trauma.
但感觉就像我看过的其他人一样，她正在利用她的秘密来争论——在这个例子中，是关于创伤的影响。
That different kinds of trauma compound on each other.
不同类型的创伤相互叠加。
She and the others spoke out because there was something important at stake.
她和其他人之所以发声，是因为有一些重要的事情危在旦夕。
They disclosed their secrets as a public service.
他们公开自己的秘密是一项公共服务。
Of course, for most of us, the reasons we tell secrets, they're not as straightforward.
当然，对于我们大多数人来说，我们泄露秘密的原因并不那么简单。
My own reasons for telling my secret, I can't even call them reasons.
我自己说出秘密的理由，我什至不能称之为理由。
That's too rational.
这也太理性了吧
What I had was an urge to tell, one driven by desperation, obsession, anger, a longing to be known and understood.
我有一种想要讲述的冲动，一种由绝望、痴迷、愤怒和渴望被了解和理解所驱动的冲动。
There are all kinds of secrets and all kinds of reasons for telling and not telling.
秘密有各种各样，讲与不讲的理由也有各种各样。
That's our show this week-- why we tell secrets and what happens after we do.
这就是我们本周的节目——为什么我们要泄露秘密以及泄露之后会发生什么。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, My Own Very Serious Comedy About Women and Food.
第一幕，我自己的关于妇女和食物的非常严肃的喜剧。
So let's get into why you might hold on to a secret, why it might be so hard to tell.
那么让我们来看看为什么你可能会保守一个秘密，为什么它可能很难说出来。
And if you have an eating disorder or are in recovery for one, a heads up that there's stuff in here that could be triggering.
如果您患有饮食失调症或正在康复中，请注意这里有可能会触发的东西。
I want to start by telling you about a movie, one that I saw as a teenager, one that addressed my secret directly.
我想首先向您介绍一部电影，一部我十几岁时看过的电影，一部直接讲述了我的秘密的电影。
It was an arthouse movie called Eating, subtitle, A Very Serious Comedy About Women and Food.
这是一部艺术电影，名叫《吃》，副标题是《关于女性和食物的非常严肃的喜剧》。
The summer I was 17, my mother and I went to see it together.
我17岁那年的夏天，我和妈妈一起去看电影。
What are you doing?
你在干什么？
Susan Burton I'd been binge eating for a couple of years by then.
苏珊·伯顿 那时我已经暴饮暴食好几年了。
In fact, I'm sure I binged before the movie.
事实上，我确信我在看电影之前就已经暴饮暴食了。
Sitting next to my mother, I was uneasy.
坐在妈妈旁边的我心里有些不安。
My bingeing was a secret.
我的暴饮暴食是一个秘密。
It was like the movie itself might give me away.
就好像电影本身可能会出卖我一样。
You binge, don't you?
你暴饮暴食，不是吗？
Woman 2 No, I was just having a--
女人 2 不，我只是想——
Oh, come on, I've been bingeing since I was your age.
哦，得了吧，从你这个年纪我就开始暴饮暴食了。
I know about bingeing.
我知道暴饮暴食。
I'm going to quite eating altogether.
我要彻底吃饱了。
It's the only way.
这是唯一的办法。
Quit eating altogether.
完全戒掉饮食。
This was my only way, too.
这也是我唯一的办法。
Within a few years after that movie, I was anorexic and back to bingeing, then anorexia again.
在那部电影之后的几年内，我厌食症又开始暴饮暴食，然后又厌食症。
More years passed, decades.
更多年过去了，几十年了。
Like some of the women in the movie, I never stopped having an eating disorder.
像电影中的一些女性一样，我从未停止过饮食失调。
I'm never going to ever be able to be like normal people with food.
我永远无法像正常人一样吃东西。
I mean, I'm always going to be at the mercy of it.
我的意思是，我总是会受到它的摆布。
And it's a very, very scary feeling.
这是一种非常非常可怕的感觉。
It's very, very powerful, and I hate it.
它非常非常强大，我讨厌它。
The summer I was 45, I watched Eating again.
45岁那年夏天，我又看了一遍《吃饭》。
The first thing I felt was nostalgia-- shoulder pads, bran muffins, Laura Ashley, lines like, "You got a perm."
我首先感受到的是怀旧之情——垫肩、麸皮松饼、劳拉·阿什利、诸如“你烫发了”之类的台词。
You got a perm.
你烫发了。
Susan Burton And the second thing I felt was, oh my god, not only is this movie about eating, it's about telling, which was the thing I was obsessed with at that point.
苏珊·伯顿（Susan Burton）我感受到的第二件事是，天哪，这部电影不仅是关于吃的，而且是关于讲述的，这是我当时痴迷的事情。
The movie is fiction, but it feels like a documentary because a lot of it is women staring into the camera telling personal stories about food.
这部电影是虚构的，但感觉就像一部纪录片，因为很多都是女性盯着镜头讲述关于食物的个人故事。
The setting is a 40th birthday party in Los Angeles, and one of the main characters is a filmmaker named Martine.
故事背景是洛杉矶的一场40岁生日派对，主角之一是一位名叫马丁的电影制片人。
She's making a documentary to help her understand her own eating disorder.
她正在制作一部纪录片来帮助她了解自己的饮食失调症。
I identified with that.
我认同这一点。
At first, Martine tells everyone at the party that her film is about women in southern California.
起初，马丁告诉聚会上的所有人，她的电影是关于南加州女性的。
Finally, she owns up to her real subject.
最后，她承认了她真正的主题。
To tell you the truth, my whole documentary is about that-- women and food.
说实话，我的整部纪录片都是关于这个的——女人和食物。
That's really why I'm here for.
这就是我来这里的真正原因。
Why then did you say the documentary was about women in California?
那你为什么说这部纪录片是关于加州女性的呢？
Well, actually, it's not a southern California behavior.
嗯，实际上，这不是南加州的行为。
It's more general.
是比较通用的。
It seem awkward to people when you say women and food.
当你说女人和食物时，人们会觉得很尴尬。
You just start wondering, why women and food?
你开始想知道，为什么女人和食物？
It's the most terrible thing.
这是最可怕的事情。
Just like Martine, I'd hidden my real subject.
就像玛蒂娜一样，我隐藏了我真正的主题。
That eating disorder memoir I was writing, I told people my book was a cultural history of the teenage girl.
我正在写的那本饮食失调回忆录，我告诉人们我的书是一部十几岁女孩的文化史。
It actually had started out that way, but it took me a long time to admit what I really wanted to write about.
事实上一开始就是这样的，但我花了很长时间才承认我真正想写的是什么。
For years, I was ashamed of my own story, same as Martine.
多年来，我和玛蒂娜一样，为自己的故事感到羞耻。
You can say I'm an alcoholic.
你可以说我是一个酒鬼。
I feel, oh, I am a drug addict.
我觉得，哦，我是一个吸毒者。
That's OK.
没关系。
I mean, it's kind of interesting.
我的意思是，这有点有趣。
But just say, I have an eating disorder, I just want to eat, I just want to-- that's so unattractive.
但就说，我有饮食失调症，我只想吃东西，我只想——那太没有吸引力了。
It's so disturbing.
太令人不安了。
I just was never able to tell that to anyone.
我只是无法将这一点告诉任何人。
In lots of ways, this movie is dated and judgmental, but it's unapologetically about eating, which still feels radical.
从很多方面来说，这部电影都是过时的、评判性的，但它毫无歉意地讲述了饮食，这仍然让人感觉很激进。
One by one, the women come and sit before Martine's camera, and she asks them, tell me, do you have any problem about food?
女人们一一来到玛蒂娜的镜头前坐下，她问她们，告诉我，你们对食物有什么问题吗？
At the end of the movie, she says that hearing their stories has changed things for her.
在电影的结尾，她说听到他们的故事改变了她的一切。
And I feel so close to them.
我感觉和他们很亲近。
And it's such a wonderful feeling.
这是一种非常美妙的感觉。
It makes me feel I don't want to be alone anymore.
这让我觉得我不想再孤单了。
I want to be able to share things with other people, you know?
我希望能够与其他人分享东西，你知道吗？
Maybe this sounds sappy, but these lines did something to me.
也许这听起来很伤感，但这些台词对我有帮助。
It's what I wanted, too.
这也是我想要的。
I wanted Martine to invite me to sit in front of her camera and ask, do you have any problem about food?
我想让 Martine 邀请我坐在她的镜头前问，你对食物有什么问题吗？
I wanted to be Martine, asking others that question.
我想成为马丁，问别人这个问题。
I wanted to be at the party with other women, talking.
我想和其他女人一起参加聚会，聊天。
I closed my laptop.
我关闭了笔记本电脑。
I went downstairs to the kitchen, and from the freezer I took out a lemon bar the size of a checkerboard square.
我下楼到厨房，从冰箱里拿出一块棋盘格大小的柠檬条。
I put the lemon bar on a plate the size of something a child would use at a tea party.
我把柠檬条放在一个盘子里，盘子的大小就像孩子们在茶会上使用的东西一样。
I sliced the bar into strips and then into tiny bites.
我把酒吧切成条，然后切成小块。
I sat at the table, and I ate all the bites.
我坐在桌边，把所有的东西都吃完了。
Then I wanted more, but I wouldn't let myself have it.
然后我想要更多，但我不会让自己拥有。
By this point, I'd had enough therapy to understand that what I did with food was what I did with people.
到那时，我已经接受了足够的治疗，明白我对食物所做的就是我对人所做的。
Fearful of connection, but so hungry for it.
害怕联系，但又渴望联系。
Sitting at the table, I started to fantasize about making my own version of the film, a radio version.
坐在桌旁，我开始幻想制作我自己的电影版本，广播版本。
I wanted to have a party like in the movie, but I didn't know who I'd invite.
我想举办一个像电影里那样的聚会，但我不知道该邀请谁。
A year passed.
一年过去了。
I got a little better.
我好一点了。
I told people close to me about my history.
我向身边的人讲述了我的历史。
I told others.
我告诉别人。
I talked more.
我说得更多了。
Then, my memoir was published.
然后，我的回忆录出版了。
I'd expected to hear from readers who connected with my experience of an eating disorder.
我本来希望收到与我的饮食失调经历有关的读者的来信。
What surprised me was how many also connected with my experience of not talking about it.
令我惊讶的是，有多少人也与我不谈论它的经历有关。
I realized, here were my party guests.
我意识到，这是我的派对客人。
I emailed them back with invitations to speak.
我给他们回了邮件，邀请他们发言。
I've not really had a conversation with another person who has suffered from an eating disorder.
我还没有真正与另一个患有饮食失调症的人交谈过。
And it sounds wild to admit that, but it's true.
承认这一点听起来很疯狂，但这是事实。
I think this is the most I've ever talked about it.
我想这是我谈论最多的一次了。
But it's certainly the most I've ever talked about the bingeing side of things and eating other people's food.
但这肯定是我谈论过的关于暴饮暴食和吃别人食物的最多的一次。
And to be honest, aside from my therapist, you are the first person I've ever told about that bingeing, because I am so ashamed of it.
说实话，除了我的治疗师之外，你是我第一个告诉过我关于暴饮暴食的人，因为我对此感到非常羞耻。
I am so ashamed of the way I looked then, what I did then.
我对自己当时的样子和所做的事情感到非常羞愧。
I just-- I-- yeah, ashamed.
我只是——我——是的，感到羞耻。
Have you talked to anybody else besides the nutritionist about this stuff?
除了营养师之外，您是否与其他人谈论过这个问题？
Just you.
只有你。
Susan Burton Yeah.
苏珊·伯顿 是的。
How does it feel to be talking about it?
谈论它感觉如何？
I'm fine talking about it with you, because I know you really get it.
我很乐意和你谈论它，因为我知道你真的明白了。
Yeah.
是的。
How does it feel to be talking about this stuff?
谈论这些事情感觉如何？
I asked everyone that question, and I paid attention to what it felt like for me.
我问了每个人这个问题，并注意了我的感受。
Sometimes, I felt self-conscious.
有时，我感到不自在。
I seize up in conversation, have more ease when I write.
谈话时我会卡住，写作时会更轻松。
But I also felt the connection I'd craved.
但我也感受到了我渴望的联系。
I'd never met these women, but I knew them, because we'd been alone in the same ways.
我从未见过这些女人，但我了解她们，因为我们都以同样的方式孤独。
It is such a lonely experience going through daily restriction, purge, and performing all the behaviors of a normal diet without anyone catching on.
这是一种孤独的经历，每天都要进行限制、净化，并进行正常饮食的所有行为，而没有人明白。
I mean, I think that sharing stories really does help, because that is the scariest piece, at least for me, of living with an eating disorder is feeling so alone.
我的意思是，我认为分享故事确实有帮助，因为至少对我来说，患有饮食失调症的最可怕的部分就是感到如此孤独。
Some of them said, your book made me feel less alone.
他们中的一些人说，你的书让我不再感到孤独。
And when I said back, well, this conversation made me feel less alone, I half worried it sounded insincere and half worried they'd be weirded out if they knew just how sincere I was.
当我回复说，好吧，这次谈话让我感觉不那么孤独时，我一半担心这听起来不真诚，一半担心如果他们知道我有多么真诚，他们会感到奇怪。
And in every conversation, we talked about the thing I was so curious about-- why it was so hard to tell anyone about this stuff or talk about it.
在每次谈话中，我们都会谈论我很好奇的事情——为什么向任何人讲述或谈论这些东西是如此困难。
I think the secrecy, to be honest, is, it's that how eating disorders, at least for me, are deeply tied to sexuality.
老实说，我认为秘密在于饮食失调，至少对我来说，与性密切相关。
I think that that's why it's such a hard thing for me to talk about, because it's very much tied to that.
我认为这就是为什么我很难谈论这件事，因为它与此密切相关。
There's two things.
有两件事。
For the anorexia side of it, I think that it's because you don't want people to think you're shallow.
对于厌食症来说，我认为这是因为你不想让人们认为你很浅薄。
I don't want people to think, oh, well, she just wants to be skinny.
我不想让人们认为，哦，好吧，她只是想变瘦。
And with the bingeing, anyone that's never experienced it, you sound out of your mind.
对于那些从未经历过这种暴饮暴食的人来说，你听起来会发疯。
It's just, it doesn't make any sense at all.
只是，根本没有任何意义。
And when you explain it as though it's an addiction and whatever, maybe people have some better sense of it.
当你把它解释为一种上瘾之类的东西时，也许人们会有更好的感觉。
But it's helpful to talk to someone who's been there.
但与去过那里的人交谈会很有帮助。
I think-- I mean, I think for me, one of the reasons why I haven't been able to talk to my therapist about it and get really meaningful help is because I just don't even know how to talk about it.
我认为——我的意思是，对我来说，我无法与我的治疗师谈论这件事并获得真正有意义的帮助的原因之一是因为我什至不知道如何谈论它。
Like, I don't hear other people talk about it.
就像，我没有听到其他人谈论它。
I guess, I kind of know what the vocabulary is, but basically, my only experience is I read other people's books about it.
我想，我有点知道词汇是什么，但基本上，我唯一的经验是我读了别人关于它的书。
I don't talk to other people about it.
我不和其他人谈论这件事。
Among these women, there was one who was really brand new to talking about her eating disorder, had only recently even identified it as an eating disorder.
在这些女性中，有一位对谈论自己的饮食失调非常陌生，直到最近才将其识别为饮食失调。
And that's the conversation I'm going to play next.
这就是我接下来要播放的对话。
Because on one level, it's exactly what I'd hoped for-- just a real and good conversation with a woman who shared the experience of having an eating disorder.
因为在某种程度上，这正是我所希望的——与一位分享饮食失调经历的女性进行一次真实而愉快的对话。
But also, I think it gets at something important about why we keep any kind of secret.
而且，我认为这也说明了我们为什么要保守秘密的重要原因。
The conversation started the same way as all of them, with Audrey-- that's not her real name-- telling me the history of her eating disorder.
谈话的开始方式和所有人一样，奥黛丽——这不是她的真名——告诉我她饮食失调的历史。
I thought nobody else had ever done that.
我以为没有人这样做过。
I had never heard of bulimia.
我从未听说过贪食症。
I thought I was the only person who had ever done that.
我以为我是唯一一个这样做过的人。
Audrey is 63, and she started bingeing and purging in college in the 1970s.
奥黛丽 (Audrey) 现年 63 岁，20 世纪 70 年代在大学里就开始暴饮暴食。
This was before eating disorders were on after school specials, before bulimia had been defined in a psychological journal.
那是在放学后特别节目出现饮食失调之前，在心理学杂志上定义暴食症之前。
I wondered how Audrey had gotten the idea.
我想知道奥黛丽是怎么想到这个主意的。
Do you remember how it occurred to you to do it, to purge?
你还记得你是如何想到要这样做、净化的吗？
I don't remember the initial time, but I had been eating-- as my brain still says, eating like a pig.
我不记得第一次是什么时候，但我一直在吃东西——正如我的大脑仍然所说的那样，吃得像头猪。
And I thought, well, I've got to get rid of this.
我想，好吧，我必须摆脱这个。
I've got to make up for it somehow.
我得想办法弥补一下。
And so, that's what I started doing.
所以，这就是我开始做的事情。
And then I would spend my days in the dining hall eating, and then my afternoons finding a bathroom somewhere to get rid of it.
然后我会花几天时间在餐厅吃饭，然后下午找个地方的浴室来处理掉它。
Audrey kept bingeing and purging.
奥黛丽不停地暴饮暴食。
And then she stopped the purging part.
然后她停止了净化部分。
And what finally stopped me was I went to the health service for something, I don't remember what.
最终阻止我的是我去卫生服务中心做了一些事情，我不记得是什么了。
And there was a bottle of ipecac on the counter.
柜台上有一瓶吐根。
And when the nurse was out of the room, I stole it.
当护士离开房间时，我偷了它。
Ipecac syrup is used to cause vomiting.
吐根糖浆用于引起呕吐。
It used to be a common thing that people had in their medicine cabinets.
以前，这是人们药柜里常见的东西。
And I went back to my room, and this was Halloween night-- I remember.
我回到自己的房间，这是万圣节之夜——我记得。
And I drank the entire thing, and I got so violently ill.
我把所有的东西都喝了，然后我就病得很厉害。
Had you used ipecac syrup before to purge?
你以前用过吐根糖浆来通便吗？
No, just a finger.
不，只是一根手指。
Susan Burton And how come you drank the whole bottle?
苏珊·伯顿：你怎么把整瓶都喝掉了？
I was so angry with myself.
我对自己很生气。
I was just so angry with myself, I thought, I'm just going to drink this whole damn thing.
我对自己很生气，我想，我要把这该死的东西喝掉。
Yeah.
是的。
I knew that anger, knew the feeling of standing in a dorm room hating myself.
我知道那种愤怒，知道站在宿舍里恨自己的感觉。
Audrey told this one story about leaving campus to binge that I so related to.
奥黛丽讲述了一个与我息息相关的离开校园去狂欢的故事。
I knew the same shame.
我也知道同样的耻辱。
I was walking up the street to a chicken place that I knew of, that I knew no other college students went to.
我沿着街道走到一家我知道的鸡肉店，我知道没有其他大学生去过那里。
And that's why I went there and on my way to a binge.
这就是我去那里并开始狂欢的原因。
And there was this guy who started walking behind me, and he started whispering at me, big ass.
有一个人开始走在我身后，他开始对我低声说话，大屁股。
Big ass.
大屁股。
And I wasn't scared, I was ashamed.
而且我并不害怕，我只是感到羞愧。
I was embarrassed.
我很尴尬。
I mean, the fact that this guy could have attacked me or whatever his problem was, wasn't-- and I never turned and looked at him.
我的意思是，事实上这个家伙本来可以攻击我或者不管他的问题是什么，但事实并非如此——而且我从来没有转身看他。
He followed me all the way to the place, and then I went in.
他一路跟着我到了地方，然后我就进去了。
And I was embarrassed because-- oh, my god, I forgot this.
我很尴尬，因为——哦，天哪，我忘了这一点。
I was embarrassed because I thought, oh, now he knows where I was going.
我很尴尬，因为我想，哦，现在他知道我要去哪里了。
He knows I was going to eat.
他知道我要去吃饭。
Like, that was the problem.
就像，这就是问题所在。
Right.
正确的。
I mean, it just becomes so all-consuming that, of course, that's what everybody else is thinking, because it's the central part of your own experience.
我的意思是，它变得如此耗费精力，当然，这就是其他人的想法，因为它是你自己经历的核心部分。
Yeah.
是的。
I have spent so many years thinking about this.
我花了很多年的时间思考这个问题。
I can't believe it.
我简直不敢相信。
I mean, really, if you put it all together, years of my life this has been sort of the soundtrack going on underneath everything else.
我的意思是，真的，如果你把它们放在一起，在我生命的这些年里，这就像是在其他一切之下进行的配乐。
Even as Audrey kept bingeing for most of the next 40 years, that's not what she called it.
尽管奥黛丽在接下来的 40 年的大部分时间里都在暴饮暴食，但她并不是这么称呼它的。
And then, in your head, it sounds like-- the phrase you used, "eat like a pig"-- is that the phrase you used?
然后，在你的脑海里，听起来就像——你用过的短语，“吃得像猪一样”——这就是你用过的短语吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Susan Burton Yeah, I mean, my phrase was "eating bad."
苏珊·伯顿 是的，我的意思是，我的短语是“吃得不好”。
Oh my god, when I read that in your book, I thought, I so get it.
天哪，当我在你的书中读到这一点时，我想，我明白了。
I so get it.
我所以明白了。
Yeah.
是的。
Audrey Susan, I didn't know binge eating disorder was a thing, until I read your book.
奥黛丽·苏珊，直到我读了你的书，我才知道暴食症是一回事。
Yeah?
是的？
So how-- I mean, how did you make sense of it for yourself, without having a name for it?
那么，我的意思是，在没有名字的情况下，你是如何自己理解它的？
I just thought of it as weakness.
我只是认为这是弱点。
I just thought of it as that I was so ridiculously weak that I couldn't stop eating.
我只是觉得我太虚弱了，无法停止进食。
Binge-eating disorder is the most common eating disorder, but the least talked about.
暴食症是最常见的饮食失调症，但最少被提及。
It only became a formal eating disorder diagnosis a few years back.
几年前，它才成为正式的饮食失调诊断。
When I was in college in the early '90s, I spent hours in the stacks reading about eating disorders, and I couldn't find mine in any of the texts.
九十年代初期，当我上大学时，我花了几个小时在书堆里阅读有关饮食失调的文章，但在任何文本中我都找不到我的内容。
The best I could determine was that I had bulimia without the throwing up, but that seemed like half a problem.
我能确定的最好结果是我患有贪食症，但没有呕吐，但这似乎是一个问题。
I know I had a whole problem-- a real one.
我知道我遇到了一大堆问题——一个真正的问题。
I had this kind of fiery, righteous thing going on where I felt like I knew more than the scientists.
我经历了这种激烈而正义的事情，我觉得我比科学家知道得更多。
But my certainty that there was something really wrong with me that I alone had diagnosed did not feel triumphant.
但我确信自己真的出了问题，而且是我一个人诊断出来的，这并没有让我感到胜利。
It was incredibly isolating to have an experience that I couldn't find named anywhere.
拥有一种我在任何地方都找不到名字的经历真是令人难以置信的孤立。
A binge-- it's eating a lot, all at once, past the point of discomfort.
暴饮暴食——一下子吃太多东西，超过了不舒服的程度。
Binge-eating disorder-- I can offer a textbook definition of it here, but Audrey's experience is the textbook definition.
暴食症——我可以在这里提供教科书上的定义，但奥黛丽的经历就是教科书上的定义。
I just kind of disappear.
我就这样消失了。
I just kind of eat.
我只是有点吃而已。
And it's a time in which I feel like everything's OK, actually.
事实上，那段时间我感觉一切都很好。
While I'm eating, while I'm putting stuff in my mouth, I feel like everything's OK, but I'm kind of not really there.
当我吃饭的时候，当我把东西放进嘴里的时候，我感觉一切都很好，但我却有点不在那儿。
Oh, god awful.
哦，天啊，太可怕了。
Awful.
可怕。
Another day ruined.
又一天被毁了。
I mean, and yes, I have felt hopeless.
I mean, and yes, I have felt hopeless.
I have felt extremely hopeless, having done it again, and then doing it again the next night.
我感到非常绝望，再次这样做，然后第二天晚上又这样做。
And I felt completely hopeless and out of control of it and hating myself for it.
我感到完全绝望，无法控制，并因此憎恨自己。
That's pretty much the cycle.
这几乎就是一个循环。
The anaesthetized feeling during the binge, the self-loathing that follows, feeling like this is out of your control, but also that you should be able to stop, and the secrecy about all of it.
暴饮暴食时的麻醉感，随之而来的自我厌恶，感觉这是你无法控制的，但你也应该能够停止，以及对这一切的保密。
So you didn't tell your roommate senior year.
所以你没有告诉你高年级的室友。
Did you ever want to tell anyone about it?
你有没有想过告诉任何人这件事？
No. Oh, my gosh, no, I never wanted to tell anybody.
不，哦，天哪，不，我从来不想告诉任何人。
No. It was--
不，那是——
Yeah.
是的。
Audrey I've been in therapy most of my life, and I have never told any of my therapists about this.
奥黛丽：我一生大部分时间都在接受治疗，但我从未告诉过我的任何治疗师这件事。
It didn't occur to me that I would talk about it.
我没想到我会谈论它。
Why do you think that is?
你认为这是为什么？
Audrey I think it's just so embarrassing.
奥黛丽 我觉得这太尴尬了。
And it's really shameful, and it's something that I should be able to handle by myself.
而且这实在是太丢人了，而且这是我自己应该能够处理的事情。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I think I just kind of blanked it out when I went to therapy to talk.
我想当我去接受治疗谈话时我就有点空白了。
It was too personal, which is bizarre.
这太个人化了，这很奇怪。
I mean, I told my therapist all sorts of personal stuff, but that was too embarrassing.
我的意思是，我告诉了我的治疗师各种私人事情，但这太尴尬了。
And I never thought of myself as having an eating disorder.
我从来没有想过自己患有饮食失调症。
Binge-eating, I never thought of that as a disorder.
暴饮暴食，我从来不认为这是一种疾病。
I thought of it as a lack of discipline.
我认为这是缺乏纪律。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
If you had thought of it as a disorder, do you think that would have made you any more likely to talk about it in therapy?
如果您认为这是一种疾病，您认为这会让您更有可能在治疗中谈论它吗？
Yeah, if I thought it was a disorder, yeah.
是的，如果我认为这是一种疾病，是的。
I mean, I'm from a doctor's family, so anything that can be in a book somewhere, I can accept.
我的意思是，我来自医生家庭，所以任何可以在某本书中找到的东西，我都可以接受。
So yeah, if I thought of it as a disorder, I probably would have talked about it.
所以，是的，如果我认为这是一种疾病，我可能会谈论它。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Audrey You know, in your email, you talked about the movie, Eating.
奥黛丽 你知道，在你的电子邮件中，你谈到了电影《饮食》。
And I went to see it, when it came out, with a friend of mine.
当它上映时，我和我的一个朋友一起去看了。
And we came out of the movie, and we talked about it a little bit, but not a whole lot.
当我们从电影中走出来时，我们谈论了一点，但不是很多。
It was way too close to home for me.
对我来说离家太近了。
And I don't know if it was too close to home for her, but it was uncomfortable.
我不知道这对她来说是否离家太近，但总感觉不舒服。
It's so interesting.
太有趣了。
I'm so glad that you had the experience seeing that movie in the theater when it came out.
我很高兴您有机会在电影院上映时观看这部电影。
You're the only person I've ever talked to who's also seen this movie, so this is very exciting for me.
你是我交谈过的唯一一个也看过这部电影的人，所以这对我来说非常令人兴奋。
So what age were you when you saw that movie in the theater?
那么您在电影院看那部电影时几岁？
Oh, well, it was 1990, so-- I don't know.
哦，好吧，那是 1990 年，所以——我不知道。
So you're in your 30s.
所以你已经30多岁了。
Audrey Yeah, I was in my 30s.
奥黛丽 是的，我当时 30 多岁。
And I remember lines from that.
我还记得其中的台词。
I saw it once, but I still remember lines from that movie.
我看过一次，但我仍然记得那部电影的台词。
I remember there's a woman who's sitting in a jacket, and she says, I'm wearing this jacket because I don't want you to see my arms.
我记得有一个女人坐在一件夹克里，她说，我穿这件夹克是因为我不想让你看到我的手臂。
I wear clothes to conceal it.
我穿衣服来掩盖它。
I mean, I have this jacket on because I don't want you to see my fat arms.
我的意思是，我穿这件夹克是因为我不想让你看到我肥胖的手臂。
And then there's the older woman-- well, she's my age now, but there's the older woman who says, I don't understand these girls.
然后还有一位年长的女士——嗯，她现在和我同龄了，但是那位年长的女士说，我不明白这些女孩。
Why don't they just drink?
他们为什么不直接喝酒呢？
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Woman 2 Food, food, food-- that's all I hear is food.
女人 2 食物，食物，食物——我听到的就是食物。
Now, I really enjoy eating, I always have.
现在，我真的很喜欢吃东西，我一直都是这样。
In my time, we'd get together to have a drink, or cocktails and hors d'oeuvres.
在我那个时代，我们会聚在一起喝一杯，或者鸡尾酒和开胃小菜。
I mean, that was always-- that was a more desirable invitation than going to dinner.
我的意思是，这始终是比共进晚餐更令人向往的邀请。
And I thought, what is wrong with me?
我想，我怎么了？
Why don't I just drink?
我为什么不直接喝呢？
I really did.
我真的做到了。
What is wrong with me?
我是怎么了？
Why don't I just drink, instead of eating?
为什么我不直接喝，而是吃呢？
What else do you remember?
你还记得什么？
Do you remember anything else?
你还记得其他事吗？
I remember it was really an embarrassing experience watching the movie, and uncomfortable.
我记得当时看电影的经历真的很尴尬，很不舒服。
And the friend I went with is very lighthearted.
和我一起去的朋友很轻松。
And then we came out of that movie, and it was pretty dark there for a few minutes.
然后我们从电影里出来，有几分钟天很黑。
Do you think she connected with it, too?
你认为她也与此有关吗？
My feeling was that she connected with it on the level of women in this culture are told not to eat very much.
My feeling was that she connected with it on the level of women in this culture are told not to eat very much.
And she connected with it like a normal person, like a normal woman who suffers under the onus of, you're not supposed to eat too much, but not like somebody like me.
她像一个正常人一样对待它，就像一个普通女人一样，她承受着“你不应该吃太多”的责任，但不像像我这样的人。
But can I ask you something?
但我可以问你一件事吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Audrey When you saw it with your mom, do you think your mom was already worried about you, and maybe that's why she didn't really say much about the movie?
奥黛丽：当你和妈妈一起看这部电影时，你是否认为你妈妈已经很担心你了，也许这就是为什么她没有对这部电影说太多？
We've talked some now about my eating disorders, and she didn't know about the bingeing.
我们现在已经讨论过我的饮食失调症，而她并不知道暴饮暴食的事。
And my mother probably is somewhere on the spectrum of in between eating having been really a destructive force and the friend with whom you saw the movie, who's a woman so she can relate to it on that level.
我的母亲可能介于饮食确实是一种破坏性力量和和你一起看电影的朋友之间，她是一个女人，所以她可以在这个层面上与它产生共鸣。
I'm so glad you understand what I mean by that, about my friend being a normal woman worried about it, as opposed to somebody with a problem worried about it.
我很高兴你明白我的意思，我的朋友是一个担心这个问题的普通女性，而不是一个担心这个问题的人。
Well, I always wanted to be a normal woman worried about it.
好吧，我一直想成为一个正常的女人，为此担心。
Yeah.
是的。
Honestly, that film drove me further underground.
老实说，那部电影让我更加深入地下。
How so?
为何如此？
Audrey Because I think because of-- now that I'm thinking about it, I think because of the judgment.
奥黛丽：因为我认为是因为——现在我正在思考这个问题，我认为是因为判断。
It's just thick with judgment of these women and their problems.
它充满了对这些女性及其问题的判断。
And I thought, whoa, hm, I was right.
我想，哇，嗯，我是对的。
This absolutely must remain a secret forever.
这绝对必须永远保密。
Yeah.
是的。
Audrey And I don't even think consciously of-- I mean, I recently have started thinking consciously about it, but I've never even thought consciously about, gee, I'd better not tell anybody.
奥黛丽：我什至没有有意识地思考过——我的意思是，我最近开始有意识地思考这件事，但我什至从来没有有意识地思考过，哎呀，我最好不要告诉任何人。
It's like that would never in a million years have occurred to me to tell somebody.
就好像我在一百万年里都不会想到告诉别人一样。
What finally prompted Audrey to tell somebody was learning that this thing she did in secret was something that many other people also did and that it had a name.
最终促使奥黛丽告诉某人的是，她得知她秘密做的这件事是许多其他人也做过的事情，而且它有一个名字。
It doesn't always work this way.
但事情并不总是这样。
Naming isn't always something you want.
命名并不总是你想要的。
I talked to one woman who, for years, didn't tell anyone about her bulimia because she didn't want the label.
我和一位女士交谈过，她多年来没有告诉任何人她的贪食症，因为她不想要这个标签。
She didn't want to be saddled with shame she could never shake.
她不想背上永远无法摆脱的耻辱。
As long as she could fix it herself, the eating disorder never existed in the first place.
只要她能自己解决，饮食失调症就根本不存在。
Finally, she did tell, and she did name it, which was terrifying because it made it real.
最后，她确实说了，也确实说出了它的名字，这很可怕，因为它使它成为现实。
But it also made it more manageable.
但这也使其更易于管理。
Another woman I talked to was also reluctant to name her eating disorder, not because she didn't want the label, but because she didn't feel she lived up to it.
与我交谈的另一位女士也不愿说出自己的饮食失调症，不是因为她不想要这个标签，而是因为她觉得自己没有辜负这个标签。
I just didn't think I qualified.
I just didn't think I qualified.
I didn't feel like I was thin enough or sick enough.
我觉得自己不够瘦，也不够病。
The images I had in my head of eating disordered people were a very, very rail thin person wearing a hospital gown who's being force fed.
我脑海中浮现的饮食失调者的形象是一个非常非常瘦的人，穿着医院的长袍，正在接受强制喂食。
That's what I thought.
我就是这么想的。
This ambivalence about naming was totally familiar to me.
这种关于命名的矛盾心理对我来说非常熟悉。
When I first went to therapy, it took me a few months to look up my diagnosis code.
当我第一次接受治疗时，我花了几个月的时间来查找我的诊断代码。
I was scared to know what was now in my permanent record.
我很害怕知道我的永久记录里现在有什么。
And when I looked it up and saw it was anorexia, I got nervous in a new way.
当我查到它是厌食症时，我以一种新的方式感到紧张。
Like my therapist didn't understand.
就像我的治疗师不明白一样。
I wanted to take off all my clothes and show her that I wasn't thin enough to be anorexic.
我想脱掉所有衣服，让她知道我还没有瘦到厌食症的程度。
What I didn't get yet was that, one, you can be anorexic at any size, and two, that my feelings were the essence of the illness.
我还不明白的是，第一，无论大小，你都可能患有厌食症，第二，我的感受是这种疾病的本质。
I'm not good enough to be anorexic.
我还不够好，不能得厌食症。
I'm not good enough.
我还不够好。
A name gave Audrey the words to say the unspeakable.
一个名字赋予了奥黛丽说出难以言表的话语。
And it gave her the permission she needed to ask for help.
这给了她寻求帮助所需的许可。
After Audrey realized she might have binge-eating disorder, she contacted a nutritionist.
After Audrey realized she might have binge-eating disorder, she contacted a nutritionist.
So I contacted her.
于是我联系了她。
And when I emailed it that I thought I might have this problem, I felt OK.
当我通过电子邮件告知我可能遇到这个问题时，我感觉还好。
But when I called her and we spoke, I couldn't commit.
但当我打电话给她并交谈时，我无法承诺。
I was like, I don't know if I really have it or not.
我当时想，我不知道我是否真的拥有它。
Maybe I do, I don't know.
也许我会，我不知道。
I don't do it all the time, you know?
我并不总是这样做，你知道吗？
And she said, well, we don't necessarily have to name it.
她说，好吧，我们不一定要说出它的名字。
You may have features of it.
You may have features of it.
And what I thought was, no, no, no, I have it.
我的想法是，不，不，不，我有它。
[LAUGHS] Sorry, I'm laughing only because I totally relate, yeah.
[笑]抱歉，我笑只是因为我完全有共鸣，是的。
I know you do.
我知道你会的。
Susan Burton So what feels helpful about talking about it?
苏珊·伯顿 那么谈论这个问题有什么帮助呢？
Or what has felt helpful so far?
Or what has felt helpful so far?
What's made a difference, for me, is that it's a named problem.
对我来说，重要的是它是一个有名的问题。
And it's not a failure of character, but a disorder that can be treated.
这并不是性格上的失败，而是一种可以治疗的疾病。
Treatment for an eating disorder involves both changing behaviors and addressing the underlying emotional reasons for them.
饮食失调的治疗包括改变行为和解决其潜在的情绪原因。
That's exactly what Audrey's doing.
That's exactly what Audrey's doing.
In the months since she and I spoke, she's continued with the nutritionist.
自从我和她谈话后的几个月里，她继续与营养师见面。
And now, she's also seeing a therapist.
And now, she's also seeing a therapist.
She's not over this yet, but she's working on it.
她还没有结束这件事，但她正在努力。
That's where I am too, but I struggle with a lot of, why can't I just [BLEEP] get over it?
我也是这样，但我有很多挣扎，为什么我不能[BLEEP]克服它？
Recently, my therapist suggested that I thought that telling my story would release me from shame.
最近，我的治疗师建议我认为讲述我的故事会让我摆脱羞耻感。
I got a little defensive.
I got a little defensive.
No, no, I hadn't thought that.
No, no, I hadn't thought that.
But she was right.
但她是对的。
Telling my story has opened up a lot for me, especially with the people I'm closest to.
讲述我的故事让我敞开了很多心扉，尤其是与我最亲近的人。
But telling is a beginning, not an end.
但讲述只是一个开始，而不是结束。
It's not a solution.
这不是一个解决方案。
It doesn't fix your eating.
It doesn't fix your eating.
It doesn't release you from shame.
It doesn't release you from shame.
To release yourself from shame, you need to understand where the shame comes from.
为了摆脱羞耻感，你需要了解羞耻感从何而来。
Telling alone doesn't get you there, but it puts you in conversation with people who can help.
单独讲述并不能让你到达目的地，但它可以让你与可以提供帮助的人交谈。
It gets you to the party with other women, talking.
它可以让你和其他女人一起参加聚会，聊天。
Coming up, keeping your job secret from your children and your children secret from your job.
来吧，对你的孩子保密你的工作，也对你的孩子保密你的工作。
That's in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.
稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Susan Burton.
我是苏珊·伯顿。
Today's program, Secrets-- stories about why we tell them and why we don't.
今天的节目《秘密——关于我们为什么告诉他们和为什么不告诉他们的故事》。
We've arrived at act two of our show.
我们已经到了演出的第二幕了。
Act Two, Bad Cell Service.
第二幕，糟糕的手机服务。
We're told that sharing our secrets will liberate us.
我们被告知分享我们的秘密可以解放我们。
We'll feel unburdened, relieved.
We'll feel unburdened, relieved.
But sometimes, keeping the secret is what sets us free.
但有时，保守秘密可以让我们自由。
Writer Pavan Bivigou has an illness that she's kept secret.
作家帕万·比维古 (Pavan Bivigou) 患有一种她一直隐瞒的疾病。
My body has a secret.
我的身体有一个秘密。
There are days when my body feels as though it is the secret.
有时候，我的身体感觉这就是秘密。
If one day you were to pay considerable attention, you might figure it out.
如果有一天你足够注意的话，你可能会明白这一点。
My body's quick to breathlessness and slow to recover from exertion.
我的身体很快就会气喘吁吁，但从劳累中恢复过来又很慢。
But perhaps this is too subtle a clue.
But perhaps this is too subtle a clue.
If I go out drinking and neglect to take my folic acid the morning after, notice how the whites of my eyes have yellowed slightly.
如果我出去喝酒而第二天早上忘记服用叶酸，请注意我的眼白轻微变黄。
This is my body leaking its secret.
这是我的身体泄露了它的秘密。
The yellowed eyes-- this is jaundice, a common symptom of sickle cell disease, which is the secret my body has and tries so hard to keep.
眼睛发黄——这是黄疸，镰状细胞病的常见症状，这是我身体的秘密，并极力保守。
Sickle cell is a blood disorder where red blood cells take on an irregular sickle shape.
镰状细胞病是一种血液疾病，红细胞呈不规则的镰刀形状。
This diminishes the level of oxygen in the body.
This diminishes the level of oxygen in the body.
It can be painful.
这可能会很痛苦。
The most pronounced pain comes from the unstreamlined cells bumping and scraping along my vessel walls, producing an unbearable rusty ache in my bones, especially at the joints, which sickle cells have trouble squeezing through.
最明显的疼痛来自于不流线型的细胞沿着我的血管壁碰撞和刮擦，在我的骨头中产生难以忍受的生锈疼痛，尤其是在镰状细胞难以挤过的关节处。
And so, often, they logjam and cause swelling.
And so, often, they logjam and cause swelling.
All childhood long, I was the sick girl, notable for my string of absences.
在整个童年时期，我都是一个生病的女孩，以一连串的缺勤而闻名。
I was out for days and weeks at a time due to illness, but also for maintenance purposes-- checkups, tests, transfusions.
由于生病，我有时会缺席数天或数周，但也有为了维持生活的目的——检查、测试、输血。
The burden of being my best friend at school was threefold.
成为我在学校最好的朋友的负担是三重的。
One, you had to have a back-up best friend for the times I wasn't there.
第一，当我不在的时候，你必须有一个后备最好的朋友。
Two, if we started an art project, I had to explain to you how I wanted it done in the very likely event that I wouldn't be there to do it myself.
第二，如果我们开始一个艺术项目，我必须向你解释我希望如何完成它，以防万一我自己无法亲自参与。
And three, you had to keep up with all the school gossip and catch me up on it in meticulous detail when I returned.
第三，你必须了解学校里的所有八卦，并在我回来后详细地了解我的情况。
In year nine, I auditioned for the role of a dancing girl in my secondary school's production of "West Side Story." My dance teacher, who was directing, complimented my strong audition and followed up her praise with, if I give you a part in the show, dear, you better promise me that you won't get sick.
In year nine, I auditioned for the role of a dancing girl in my secondary school's production of "West Side Story."我的舞蹈老师，也就是导演，称赞了我出色的试镜，并接着说道，如果我让你出演这个节目，亲爱的，你最好向我保证你不会生病。
I won't get sick, I told her hurriedly, without properly considering what she was asking of me.
我不会生病，我匆忙地告诉她，没有好好考虑她对我的要求。
I won't get sick.
我不会生病。
I repeated it, I'm sure, to reassure myself.
I repeated it, I'm sure, to reassure myself.
I won't, I won't.
我不会，我不会。
The following week, the cast list went up.
接下来的一周，演员名单增加了。
And I was the only year nine dancing girl to get a speaking part.
我是九年级唯一一位获得演讲机会的舞女。
It was one line, but it was everything to me.
虽然只有一行字，但对我来说却是一切。
I prayed, stepped over cracks, wished on stars, did my homework early, my chores diligently, was nice to my brothers-- everything I could possibly think of to be good and stay well.
我祈祷，跨过裂缝，向星星许愿，早点做作业，勤奋地做家务，对我的兄弟们很好——我能想到的一切都是好的并保持健康。
I begged my body to keep the promise I'd made.
我恳求我的身体遵守我许下的诺言。
And of course, two weeks before the show, I got sick, the sickest I had ever been, the sickest I have ever been.
And of course, two weeks before the show, I got sick, the sickest I had ever been, the sickest I have ever been.
I caught pneumonia.
我得了肺炎。
I was hospitalized for three months, missed five months of school that year.
那年我住院了三个月，缺课五个月。
I believe my body did it to spite me.
我相信我的身体这样做是为了激怒我。
I was so angry, I writhed in my hospital bed in pain and frustration thinking, I'm a girl who wants to dance and say her line.
我非常生气，在病床上痛苦而沮丧地翻滚，我想，我是一个想要跳舞并说出台词的女孩。
I'm stuck in this body, a place that gets sick.
我被困在这个身体里，一个会生病的地方。
I never auditioned for anything at school ever again.
I never auditioned for anything at school ever again.
As I grew older, I grew a bit healthier.
随着年龄的增长，我变得更健康了。
My body calmed down.
我的身体平静下来。
I went two years without hospital admission, then five, then eight.
我有两年没有入院，然后是五年，然后是八年。
Then I mostly stopped speaking about sickle cell and the bad blood that moves inside me.
然后我基本上不再谈论镰状细胞和我体内流动的坏血。
I convinced myself that discussing it would somehow jinx me into more suffering.
我说服自己，讨论这个问题会让我陷入更多的痛苦。
If I kept quiet about my body, my body, in turn, would keep quiet about its disease.
If I kept quiet about my body, my body, in turn, would keep quiet about its disease.
I moved through the world less a sick person and more as a person with a sickness.
我在这个世界上行走，与其说是一个病人，不如说是一个患有疾病的人。
That distinction became very important-- a loophole.
这种区别变得非常重要——一个漏洞。
I never lied, I neglected to tell the truth.
我从不撒谎，我忽略了说实话。
That's how secrets are made.
That's how secrets are made.
My secret allows me to control how people see me.
My secret allows me to control how people see me.
I remember revealing the truth to a co-worker at a bookstore.
I remember revealing the truth to a co-worker at a bookstore.
And after that, he attributed every stumble, every dropped pencil to my sickle cell.
从那以后，他把每一次绊倒、每一次掉落的铅笔都归咎于我的镰状细胞病。
I hate to be pitied.
我讨厌被人怜悯。
Pity says, I'm glad I'm not you.
怜悯说，我很高兴我不是你。
Pity says, I'm glad I do not have to struggle with what you do.
Pity says, I'm glad I do not have to struggle with what you do.
Pity feels bad for me, without giving me a chance to feel anything for myself.
Pity feels bad for me, without giving me a chance to feel anything for myself.
Keeping my secret is the one thing about my body I can control.
Keeping my secret is the one thing about my body I can control.
People would sometimes find out, but it was rare for me to actively tell.
People would sometimes find out, but it was rare for me to actively tell.
My husband is the only person I can remember sitting down to explain.
My husband is the only person I can remember sitting down to explain.
I tell my body's secret only when it is necessary, when it is apparent I'm becoming sick, or when it's a safety concern, like when I fly long distance, because I'd heard that high altitude can trigger a crisis.
只有在必要时，当我明显生病时，或者当出于安全考虑时，比如当我长途飞行时，我才会说出我身体的秘密，因为我听说高海拔会引发危机。
Years ago, a doctor got me in the habit of taking this precautionary measure.
Years ago, a doctor got me in the habit of taking this precautionary measure.
Before the seatbelt light switched on, I walked to the front of the plane and hushedly confessed.
Before the seatbelt light switched on, I walked to the front of the plane and hushedly confessed.
The first time I did this, my head swam.
我第一次这样做时，我的头晕了。
It had been so long since I'd said, "I have sickle cell," out loud to anyone.
It had been so long since I'd said, "I have sickle cell," out loud to anyone.
Now, I accept this unburdening as part of my flying ritual.
Now, I accept this unburdening as part of my flying ritual.
Because it's temporary, the secret remains in the air and dissipates as soon as I land at my destination.
Because it's temporary, the secret remains in the air and dissipates as soon as I land at my destination.
Another place I was sometimes OK talking about my sickle cell was in avowedly Black spaces-- home, church, with extended family that wasn't really family.
另一个我有时可以谈论我的镰状细胞病的地方是在公开的黑人空间——家里、教堂，以及不是真正家庭的大家庭。
It is our disease, so it's our problem.
这是我们的疾病，所以这是我们的问题。
One theory is that the gene mutation in the hemoglobin evolved to resist malaria.
One theory is that the gene mutation in the hemoglobin evolved to resist malaria.
Most people had a cousin back home who had suffered, an aunt's friend of a friend who died from it.
Most people had a cousin back home who had suffered, an aunt's friend of a friend who died from it.
There was a heavy knowing in these diasporic circles.
There was a heavy knowing in these diasporic circles.
They understood the specific frustration of being in a body that had an extra thing to contend with.
They understood the specific frustration of being in a body that had an extra thing to contend with.
They'd jokingly quote that line from Full Metal Jacket at me-- "Thank god for the sickle cell"-- and I would laugh.
They'd jokingly quote that line from Full Metal Jacket at me-- "Thank god for the sickle cell"-- and I would laugh.
In these spaces, I felt seen, but also hyper visible.
In these spaces, I felt seen, but also hyper visible.
And as I grew up, I sought out places where I could go incognito.
And as I grew up, I sought out places where I could go incognito.
I have been told all my life by doctors, teachers, family friends, that I should tell, that it's the only way I will ever feel truly known.
I have been told all my life by doctors, teachers, family friends, that I should tell, that it's the only way I will ever feel truly known.
I spent so much of my life struggling with this disease, and so, of course, it has shaped me-- the way I form relationships, how suspicious I am of joy, my wholesale resignation to pain, why I hate being cold.
我一生中的大部分时间都在与这种疾病作斗争，所以，当然，它塑造了我——我建立人际关系的方式，我对快乐的怀疑，我对痛苦的完全屈服，为什么我讨厌寒冷。
Telling people lets them in.
告诉人们让他们进来。
But the problem is, I know who I am.
但问题是，我知道我是谁。
I'm a person who has a secret.
我是一个有秘密的人。
And so, who do I become if I tell?
那么，如果我告诉了我，我会变成谁？
What do I lose?
我会失去什么？
I have tried to be more open.
我尝试变得更加开放。
I even wrote about my sickle cell for an online publication a few years ago.
I even wrote about my sickle cell for an online publication a few years ago.
The positive feedback from strangers was encouraging, overwhelming.
The positive feedback from strangers was encouraging, overwhelming.
But hearing from people I knew felt embarrassing, exposing.
But hearing from people I knew felt embarrassing, exposing.
Fortunately, it wasn't that many people.
幸运的是，人并没有那么多。
I went back to parcelling out the tellings, keeping the information on the strictest need to know basis.
I went back to parcelling out the tellings, keeping the information on the strictest need to know basis.
And then COVID happened.
然后新冠疫情发生了。
At the beginning of it, about a year ago, I received a letter from the Department of Health and Social Care informing me that, as I have a high risk condition, I'm considered extremely vulnerable.
一开始，大约一年前，我收到了健康和社会关怀部的一封信，通知我，由于我有高风险状况，我被认为是极其脆弱的。
And so I must stay out of the way of COVID by staying in my house for at least 12 weeks.
And so I must stay out of the way of COVID by staying in my house for at least 12 weeks.
Extremely vulnerable is the nicest thing a government organization has ever said about me.
极度脆弱是政府组织对我说过的最好的一句话。
Extremely vulnerable made me feel dainty and precious, like a rare jewel, uniquely worthy of special care, until the reality sets in of what it would mean to spend 12 weeks inside my house.
极度脆弱让我感觉自己精致而珍贵，就像一颗稀有的宝石，独特地值得特别照顾，直到现实告诉我在我的房子里度过 12 周意味着什么。
Could I have lied for 12 weeks, told people I was staying home because I was anxious, overly cautious?
我是否可以撒谎 12 周，告诉人们我因为焦虑、过于谨慎而呆在家里？
Or maybe it would be easier to just tell the truth.
Or maybe it would be easier to just tell the truth.
And so, for the first time in my life, I slipped into the habit of day to day, face to face, talking about my sickle cell.
因此，我有生以来第一次养成了每天面对面谈论我的镰状细胞病的习惯。
I told friends, new colleagues, neighbors, the postman.
我告诉朋友、新同事、邻居、邮递员。
They would come by the house, stand at the front gate.
他们会经过房子，站在前门。
I sat the mandated two meters away on the steps, and they would ask me questions.
我坐在规定的两米外的台阶上，他们会问我问题。
I rambled at them about bone marrow stem cells, rigid red blood cells, anemia, chest crises, increased infection risks, and how scared I was.
我向他们讲述了骨髓干细胞、刚性红细胞、贫血、胸部危象、感染风险增加以及我有多害怕。
Everybody was so nice, so understanding and listening to me.
每个人都非常友善，非常理解并倾听我的意见。
I felt compelled by their kindness to tell, but always sicker after I told.
他们的善意迫使我不得不说出这件事，但在我说出真相后，我的病情总是加重。
I felt powerless, like a child again.
我感到无能为力，又像个孩子一样。
My first adult decision was to keep my illness a secret.
我成年后的第一个决定就是对我的病情保密。
I spent so much of my life hiding, to give myself choices as to how I'd move through the world.
我一生中大部分时间都在躲藏，以便让自己选择如何在这个世界上行走。
And now, in revealing myself, I felt trapped.
现在，在揭露自己的过程中，我感到自己被困住了。
Once, after a visit where I had told someone, I found myself playing a game I hadn't played since childhood.
有一次，在我告诉别人的一次拜访之后，我发现自己在玩一个我从小就没有玩过的游戏。
I lay very still on the floor, trying to pinpoint where in my body my bad blood was moving, imagining the evil broken cells swimming through vessels in my brain, heart, lungs, behind my eyes, across my belly, focusing my thoughts on pulverizing them.
我一动不动地躺在地板上，试图找出体内坏血在哪里流动，想象着邪恶的破碎细胞在我的大脑、心脏、肺、眼睛后面、腹部的血管中游动，集中精力粉碎它们。
It didn't work then, it doesn't work now.
那时不起作用，现在也不起作用。
The most pervasive idea about secrets is that they encumber us.
关于秘密最普遍的想法是它们阻碍了我们。
We're told that sharing all the parts of ourselves sets us free, but I have not felt any relief since the knowledge of my condition has become more public.
我们被告知，分享自己的所有部分可以让我们自由，但自从我的病情变得更加公开后，我并没有感到任何轻松。
The more I tell the truth to others, the less I feel like me.
我越向别人说实话，我就越觉得自己不像自己。
I would like to return to being sick in the dark.
我想回到黑暗中生病的状态。
Act Three, Mommy's Busy Right Now.
第三幕，妈妈现在很忙。
Back in March of last year, when schools were shutting down, my co-worker Lina Misitzis saw a tweet from a mother who had a problem lots of mothers had, but a more extreme version of it.
早在去年三月，当学校停课时，我的同事莉娜·米西齐斯(Lina Misitzis)看到了一位母亲的推文，她遇到了很多母亲都遇到的问题，但这是一个更极端的版本。
She makes porn at home.
她在家制作色情片。
Her tweet-- quote, "I work when my kids are in school.
她在推文中写道：“我的孩子上学时我就工作。
School is on the verge of closing.
学校即将停课。
It'll be difficult to make content when that happens." A warning-- the story is about someone making porn and keeping it from their kids.
当这种情况发生时，就很难制作内容了。”警告——这个故事是关于某人制作色情片并不让孩子们知道的。
You might want to do the same.
您可能也想做同样的事情。
There's some sexual content.
有一些色情内容。
Here's Lina.
这是莉娜。
Lana makes a la carte porn, short videos of herself for people to buy.
拉娜制作了自己的点菜色情片和短视频供人们购买。
And her fans can book her for one-on-one cam shows.
她的粉丝可以为她预订一对一的视频表演。
We got on the phone in May, two months after that tweet, so, two months into her kids' remote learning.
我们是在五月份通电话的，也就是那条推文发布两个月后，也就是她孩子们远程学习两个月后。
I'm just going to escape from the teacher YouTube video for a minute.
我只是想暂时逃离老师的 YouTube 视频。
By the way, Lana's not her real name.
顺便说一句，拉娜不是她的真名。
It's her performer name.
这是她的演员名字。
I asked, what is it like now that her family is always home?
我问，现在她家人都在家，感觉怎么样？
And she said, basically, it's been tough.
她说，基本上，这很艰难。
The time she used to spend on her own work is now dedicated to the kids' schooling.
她以前花在自己工作上的时间现在都花在了孩子们的学业上。
And then, 5 o'clock, it's just dinner, bath, and bed, as it usually is.
然后，到了五点钟，就和往常一样，吃晚饭、洗澡、睡觉了。
Wait, are you still shooting any content from the house?
等等，你还在家里拍摄任何内容吗？
Not really.
并不真地。
I just don't anymore because, after 9 o'clock, I just feel so exhausted now.
我只是不再这样做了，因为，九点之后，我现在感到非常疲惫。
I just can't-- I can't do it at night.
我就是不能——我不能在晚上这样做。
Lana had stopped shooting, which I wasn't so surprised.
拉娜停止了射击，对此我并不感到惊讶。
But then a few minutes after we hung up, I got a text message from her.
但挂断电话几分钟后，我收到了她发来的短信。
She wrote, "It's not safe for sex workers to say what they shoot at home while their kids are home." So I called her back right away.
她写道：“性工作者在孩子在家时说出自己在家里拍摄的内容是不安全的。”于是我立刻给她回了电话。
It turned out she hadn't been totally honest with me.
事实证明她对我并不完全诚实。
You asked me if I made content ever when they're home, I have to.
你问我是否在他们在家时制作内容，我必须这样做。
I have to.
我必须。
It's like, being in the closet in your own home.
就像在自己家里的壁橱里一样。
And you're trying to work, and you have to deliver this media to people who have paid already for it.
你正在努力工作，你必须将这些媒体交付给已经付费的人们。
You're under these deadlines to make porn.
你在这些最后期限内制作色情片。
A big reason Lana wasn't immediately upfront-- she doesn't want other moms in her world knowing what she does for work.
拉娜没有立即坦白的一个重要原因是，她不想让她身边的其他妈妈知道她的工作内容。
Lana told me that's because she knows what the other moms think of her job.
拉娜告诉我，这是因为她知道其他妈妈对她工作的看法。
A couple of years ago, they were passing around a documentary about the dangers of porn.
几年前，他们传播了一部关于色情危险的纪录片。
It's vilified.
是被谩骂了
It's something to be afraid of.
这是值得害怕的事情。
They look at it as something that's very degrading to women.
他们认为这是对女性非常有辱人格的事情。
Like, I'm just degrading myself.
比如说，我只是在贬低自己。
I really enjoy my own sexuality and being able to tap into that for other people who are looking for something really niche and specific.
我真的很喜欢自己的性取向，并且能够为其他正在寻找真正利基和具体的东西的人利用这一点。
They don't see it that way at all.
他们根本不这么看。
They see it as this disease.
他们将其视为这种疾病。
And if they see me as that, I don't know if they would continue to want to plan play dates with my daughter.
如果他们这样看待我，我不知道他们是否会继续计划和我女儿一起玩耍。
So she's kept her job a secret, for years, from the other moms, and of course, from her own kids.
因此，多年来，她一直对其他妈妈，当然还有她自己的孩子，保守着自己的工作秘密。
Which just to say, doing your job while your kids are at home, that's one thing.
只是说，当你的孩子在家时做你的工作，这是一回事。
Doing a secret job while your kids are at home, that's a whole other thing.
当你的孩子在家时做一项秘密工作，那就是另一回事了。
And on top of that, the kids at home, they're also a secret from Lana's customers.
最重要的是，家里的孩子们对拉娜的顾客来说也是一个秘密。
For them, Lana has no family.
对于他们来说，拉娜没有家人。
She exists solely in the fantasy they're paying for.
她只存在于他们付出代价的幻想中。
So Lana's having to switch back and forth between these different sides of her life.
所以拉娜不得不在她生活的不同方面来回切换。
Each one has to be completely invisible to the other.
每个人都必须对另一个人完全看不见。
But she's stunningly can-do about it, very matter of fact whenever I bring up how stressful it seems.
但她对此却表现得惊人，事实上，每当我提起这件事看起来有多么压力时，她都是如此。
Like, it's a puzzle, a bunch of moving parts.
就像，这是一个谜题，一堆活动部件。
All of them have a place, just it needs solving.
它们都有一个位置，只是需要解决。
OK, so a typical morning, before any kids come downstairs, I'll shoot a small Snapchat clip.
好的，在一个典型的早晨，在孩子们下楼之前，我会拍摄一段 Snapchat 短片。
One is kind of G rated for my promotional, and the other one is adult for my premium members.
一种是针对我的促销活动的 G 级，另一种是针对我的高级会员的成人级。
So that's done in the morning.
这样早上就完成了。
Then it's time for the kids to get up, get dressed.
然后孩子们就该起床、穿衣服了。
She makes them breakfast, situates them for virtual learning.
她为他们做早餐，安排他们进行虚拟学习。
By the way, Lana is married.
顺便说一句，拉娜已经结婚了。
Her husband knows about and supports her work.
她的丈夫了解并支持她的工作。
But because of the nature of his work, he's often tied up during the day, leaving it to Lana.
但由于工作性质，他白天常常很忙，把所有的事情都留给了拉娜。
So while the kids are in Zoom school, she looks for small moments when it makes sense to slip away, or when they're allowed their screen time, occupied by Minecraft or YouTube.
因此，当孩子们在 Zoom 学校上学时，她会寻找一些值得溜走的小时刻，或者当他们被允许使用 Minecraft 或 YouTube 的屏幕时间时。
--or I'll even sneak off into the bathroom with the door locked, do a shower scene.
——或者我什至会偷偷溜进浴室，锁上门，拍一个淋浴场景。
Sometimes, there's some pee clips because there's a bunch of pee fans out there.
有时，会有一些小便剪辑，因为那里有一群小便迷。
What's interesting, actually, about most of what you just said is that it's the stuff that you'd be doing in the bathroom with the door closed and locked anyway.
事实上，有趣的是，你刚才所说的大部分内容都是你在浴室里做的事情，而且门是关着锁着的。
And you're multitasking.
而且你同时处理多项任务。
Yeah, you work it in.
是的，你把它放进去。
Oh, my god, it's like every time you sit on the toilet, or something, or you turn on the shower, you're like, OK, wait a minute.
哦，天哪，就像每次你坐在马桶上或其他什么地方，或者打开淋浴时，你都会说，好吧，等一下。
Should I be shooting this?
我应该拍这个吗？
Because what section of my fans will this be good for?
因为这对我的哪些粉丝有好处？
The day before, Lana said-- Lana I had to go into the kids' bathroom, because that was the room that was the most far away from where everyone else was.
前一天，拉娜说——拉娜，我必须去孩子们的浴室，因为那是离其他人最远的房间。
And there's towels everywhere.
而且到处都是毛巾。
There's an owl picture.
有一张猫头鹰的照片。
The bathroom's painted yellow.
浴室漆成黄色。
It's just not the greatest room for porn.
这不是色情片最好的空间。
So I have to go in really close and speak kind of quietly.
所以我必须非常靠近并小声说话。
Lana's been careful to manage what her kids know about her job.
拉娜一直小心翼翼地管理着她的孩子们对她工作的了解。
At the time, her daughter was 11, perceptive, starting to have some questions.
当时，她的女儿11岁，有洞察力，开始有一些问题。
Sometimes, she'd notice Lana wearing something out of the ordinary beneath her t-shirt and jeans, like full body lingerie or something.
有时，她会注意到拉娜在 T 恤和牛仔裤下面穿了一些不寻常的衣服，比如全身内衣什么的。
And she'd ask her mom, why are you wearing that?
她会问她妈妈，你为什么穿这个？
And I'll be like, oh, yeah, sorry, this is for work.
我会说，哦，是的，抱歉，这是为了工作。
And she'll be like, mm, OK.
她会说，嗯，好吧。
Do you think it's possible that she just doesn't know that there is more to know than that?
你认为她有可能不知道还有比这更多的事情吗？
Um-- Lina Misitzis Well, I don't-- I don't remember-- when do kids figure out that sexuality is a commodity?
嗯——Lina Misitzis 嗯，我不——我不记得——孩子们什么时候发现性是一种商品？
I think that she is pretty close.
我认为她很接近。
She will eventually figure this out.
她最终会弄清楚这一点。
Here's what Lana's daughter does know.
这是拉娜女儿所知道的。
She knows her mom has a, quote, "grown up job," which is why she has a lot of fun clothes and high heels, which she likes to try on.
她知道她妈妈有一份“成熟的工作”，这就是为什么她有很多有趣的衣服和高跟鞋，她喜欢试穿。
She knows her mom takes pictures for people and makes videos for them.
她知道她妈妈为人们拍照并为他们制作视频。
And she knows that, sometimes, people like to buy her mom's clothes after she's worn them.
她知道，有时候，人们喜欢在她妈妈穿过之后再买她的衣服。
And that's what she knows.
这就是她所知道的。
For now, she isn't asking for more.
目前，她没有要求更多。
And Lana's waiting for her to ask.
拉娜正在等她问。
And her son, he was six when we talked.
还有她的儿子，我们谈话时他才六岁。
He didn't know anything about his mom's work yet.
他还不知道他妈妈的工作。
He didn't even know it was a door he could knock on.
他甚至不知道这是一扇他可以敲的门。
Knocking on doors, by the way, a lesson he should probably learn sooner than later.
顺便说一句，敲门是他迟早应该吸取的教训。
One time, Lana told me, she snuck off for a quick cam show.
拉娜告诉我，有一次，她偷偷溜出去参加一场简短的视频表演。
I went upstairs.
我上楼了。
I forgot to lock the door.
我忘记锁门了。
And I had just pulled down my leggings, still had my underwear on.
我刚刚脱下紧身裤，内衣还穿着。
And my son started walking up the stairs.
我儿子开始走上楼梯。
And I'm on camera already, and I had to pull up my pants really fast.
我已经在镜头前了，我不得不很快地拉起裤子。
And I'm like, hey, what's up?
我就想，嘿，怎么了？
And it's like, my Kindle's not working.
就像我的 Kindle 无法使用一样。
And it's like, oh, my god.
这就像，哦，天啊。
It worked out fine.
效果很好。
Lana put the phone down before her son even walked into the room and met him out in the hallway.
拉娜在儿子走进房间并在走廊与他见面之前就挂断了电话。
Actually, almost the exact same thing happened on our phone call, too.
事实上，我们的电话里也发生了几乎完全相同的事情。
Can I have some more Kindle?
我可以再要一些 Kindle 吗？
Lina Misitzis She gave him more Kindle.
Lina Misitzis 她给了他更多的 Kindle。
It's not just her kids looking for more screen time, it's also her clients.
寻求更多屏幕时间的不仅仅是她的孩子，还有她的客户。
When the pandemic started, porn consumption in America shot up-- way up.
当大流行开始时，美国的色情消费量猛增。
About 25% more streaming, according to the website Pornhub, especially in the middle of the day at around lunchtime-- presumably, people stuck at home.
根据 Pornhub 网站的数据，直播量增加了大约 25%，尤其是在午餐时间左右——想必是人们被困在家里。
Lana saw an uptick in her fan base, too.
拉娜的粉丝群也有所增加。
Last spring, she told me she'd gained about 8,000 followers on social media and that she was getting more and more requests for private shows.
去年春天，她告诉我，她在社交媒体上获得了大约 8,000 名粉丝，并且收到越来越多的私人表演请求。
Everybody right now is at home with their families.
现在每个人都在家里与家人团聚。
And so, men will be working from their home office, and they'll contact me and say, hey, can we do a five-minute cam session?
因此，男人将在他们的家庭办公室工作，他们会联系我并说，嘿，我们可以进行五分钟的视频会议吗？
Like Lana's doing in her house, these clients are fitting in what they can, when they can, from their houses, many of them hoping it'll go unnoticed.
就像拉娜在她家里所做的那样，这些客户在他们的房子里尽可能地适应，他们中的许多人希望这不会被注意到。
So that was early in the pandemic, May.
那是五月大流行的早期。
Every two or three months, I'd check back with Lana.
每隔两三个月，我就会和拉娜联系一次。
And every time we'd catch up, she sounded upbeat.
每次我们见面时，她听起来都很乐观。
And I think, this woman is so good at compartmentalizing.
我认为，这个女人非常善于区分。
But when I called her back a couple of weeks ago to check in, she sounded different.
但当我几周前给她回电话询问时，她的声音听起来有所不同。
And she told me she's been having a hard time keeping up her porn persona with clients.
她告诉我，她很难在客户面前保持自己的色情形象。
It's hard to stay motivated, I have found.
我发现很难保持动力。
And it kind of takes a little bit of time to kind of get going and to get in-- I'd have to put on music.
需要一点时间才能开始并进入——我必须放音乐。
I have to sort of get in the mindset to actually create something that's good.
我必须调整心态，真正创造出一些好的东西。
Some things are easier these days.
如今有些事情变得更容易了。
Her kids don't need so much attention during the day.
她的孩子白天不需要那么多的关注。
Lana's daughter is old enough to manage her own virtual learning.
拉娜的女儿已经足够大了，可以管理自己的虚拟学习。
And her son-- he's seven now-- he's in a small pod with other kiddos his age.
她的儿子——现在七岁了——和其他同龄的孩子一起住在一个小圈子里。
Four days a week, he's not at home.
他每周有四天不在家。
Lana even rented a small office for work where she can go spend a few hours each morning shooting by herself.
拉娜甚至租了一间小办公室来工作，每天早上她可以在那里花几个小时自己拍摄。
So she has more privacy and doesn't have to toggle back and forth all day between her kids and her secret job anymore.
因此，她拥有更多的隐私，不必再整天在孩子和秘密工作之间来回切换。
But the pandemic's been getting to her in some new ways.
但这种流行病以一些新的方式影响了她。
There's, I think, a lot of little things, like the gyms being closed and I'm not taking care of my body as well as I did before the pandemic.
我认为有很多小事情，比如健身房关闭了，我没有像大流行之前那样照顾好自己的身体。
And so, I feel like my body looks different now, and that makes you not feel quite as sexy when you're looking back at the footage later.
所以，我觉得我的身体现在看起来不一样了，这会让你在以后回顾镜头时感觉不太性感。
And you're like, wow, I really don't like that angle.
你会说，哇，我真的不喜欢那个角度。
And so I find myself sometimes just having to bust out content, not because I'm feeling it or because I think this is going to be really great, but it's like, I have to get it done.
所以我发现自己有时不得不拿出内容，不是因为我有感觉，也不是因为我认为这会很棒，而是因为我必须完成它。
Actually, Lana says, the hour-long foot worshiping session that she'd done just before this phone call is a good example of what she's talking about.
事实上，拉娜说，她在打这个电话之前进行的长达一小时的足部崇拜就是她所说的一个很好的例子。
That appointment happened over text.
那次约会是通过短信进行的。
She also sends photos.
她还发送照片。
So I'm actually texting with him.
所以我实际上正在和他发短信。
And then I'm also looking for a restaurant reservation because I really want to go out to dinner this Friday for outdoor dining.
然后我也在寻找餐厅预订，因为我真的很想在这个星期五出去吃晚餐，进行户外用餐。
[LAUGHS] And I'm texting with someone else.
[笑]我正在和别人发短信。
No, because I have to find a place with heaters and a full bar, and that is a tricky combination right now.
不，因为我必须找到一个有加热器和完整酒吧的地方，而这现在是一个棘手的组合。
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
Like lots of us, Lana's worn down, having less fun on the job.
和我们很多人一样，拉娜也很疲惫，工作中的乐趣也越来越少。
And honestly, who can blame her?
老实说，谁能责怪她呢？
But since her whole job is to get other people in the mood, when Lana's not in the mood, that's a different kind of secret, one she can't afford to tell.
但由于她的全部工作就是让其他人有心情，当拉娜没有心情时，那就是另一种秘密，她不能告诉别人。
Lina Misitzis is a producer of our show.
Lina Misitzis 是我们节目的制片人。
Credits Susan Burton Our program was produced today by me, Susan Burton.
致谢 Susan Burton 今天我们的节目是由我 Susan Burton 制作的。
The people who put our show together today include Bim Adewunmi, Elna Baker, Dana Chivvis, Sean Cole, Aviva DeKornfeld, Hilary Elkins, Damien Graef, Seth Lind, Tobin Low, Miki Meek, Lina Misitzis, Stowe Nelson, Katherine Rae Mondo, Nadia Reiman, Ari Saperstein, Laura Starcheski, Lilly Sullivan, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, and Julie Whitaker.
今天节目的制作人包括 Bim Adewunmi、Elna Baker、Dana Chivvis、Sean Cole、Aviva DeKornfeld、Hilary Elkins、Damien Graef、Seth Lind、Tobin Low、Miki Meek、Lina Misitzis、Stowe Nelson、Katherine Rae Mondo、Nadia Reiman、Ari Saperstein、Laura Starcheski、Lilly Sullivan、Christopher Swetala、Matt蒂尔尼和朱莉·惠特克。
Our managing editor is Sara Abdurrahman.
我们的总编辑是萨拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sara Abdurrahman)。
Our senior editor is David Kestenbaum.
我们的高级编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。
Our executive editor is Emanuele Berry.
我们的执行编辑是 Emanuele Berry。
Special thanks today to Neda Frayha, Andy Lee, Mark Spiegler, and to all the women who trusted me with the stories of their eating disorders.
今天特别感谢 Neda Frayha、Andy Lee、Mark Spiegler 以及所有信任我讲述饮食失调故事的女性。
The book I talked about, my memoir, it's called Empty.
我谈到的那本书，我的回忆录，它的名字叫《空》。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org, where you can stream our archive of over 700 episodes for absolutely free.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org，您可以在其中完全免费地观看我们的 700 多集档案。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, of course, to my boss, Ira Glass, who took the week off to devote himself to his true calling, Star Trek fanfiction.
当然，要感谢我的老板艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass），他花了一周的时间全身心投入到他真正的使命——《星际迷航》同人小说中。
He finished two stories.
他讲完了两个故事。
One is kind of G rated for my promotional, and the other one is adult for my premium members.
一种是针对我的促销活动的 G 级，另一种是针对我的高级会员的成人级。
I'm Susan Burton.
我是苏珊·伯顿。
Join us next week for more stories of This American Life.
下周加入我们，了解更多关于《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
This American Life This American Life 与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。