725: Turkey in a Face Mask - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #725 | November 27, 2020 725: Turkey in a Face Mask Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 725 集 | 2020 年 11 月 27 日 725：戴口罩的火鸡 注意：《This American Life》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass Back on one of the early episodes of our radio show, I had my friend Vertamae Grosvenor come on.
序言：序言 Ira Glass 回到我们广播节目的早期剧集之一，我让我的朋友 Vertamae Grosvenor 上场。
Verta was this amazing cook.
维塔是一位了不起的厨师。
She wrote a cookbook in 1970, Vibration Cooking, that is still in print today.
她于 1970 年写了一本烹饪书《振动烹饪》，至今仍在印刷。
And Verta had this story that she would tell sometimes that, back when her book was published, she was interviewed on the Today show by Barbara Walters, who was on the show back then.
维塔有时会讲这样一个故事：当她的书出版时，她在《今日》节目中接受了芭芭拉·沃尔特斯的采访，芭芭拉·沃尔特斯当时也在节目中。
And the way Verta told this story, she's on TV, making fried chicken for Barbara Walters.
维塔讲述这个故事的方式是，她在电视上为芭芭拉·沃尔特斯做炸鸡。
And at some point, Barbara Walters asked her, how do you tell the chicken's done?
在某个时候，芭芭拉·沃尔特斯问她，你怎么知道鸡肉已经熟了？
And Verta says, you can tell by the sound.
维塔说，你可以通过声音辨别出来。
And in Verta's telling, Ms. Walters gives her this skeptical look, like, give me a break, and cuts to commercial.
在维尔塔的讲述中，沃尔特斯女士给了她一种怀疑的表情，就像是，让我休息一下，然后切入广告。
Verta said that was always people's reaction.
维塔说，这总是人们的反应。
They say, you're crazy, Verta.
他们说，你疯了，维尔塔。
That's not it.
不是这个。
They said, tell me something real, like, what is it?
他们说，告诉我一些真实的事情，比如，那是什么？
15 minutes, 20 minutes, or whatever.
15 分钟、20 分钟或其他时间。
And I say, you've got to listen to the sound of the grease.
我说，你必须听听油脂的声音。
Listen to the music.
听音乐。
So for years, Vertamae claimed that you can tell if a chicken's done purely by the sound.
因此，多年来，维塔梅声称，你可以纯粹通过声音来判断鸡是否已经熟了。
And to prove the point, she agreed to come onto our radio show to conduct this little radio experiment, where my co-workers and I fried a chicken.
为了证明这一点，她同意参加我们的广播节目进行这个小型广播实验，我和同事炸了一只鸡。
and we recorded it at four different stages of frying, and then shuffled the order of the recordings to play for Verta to demonstrate, once and for all, was it true?
我们在四个不同的油炸阶段录制了它，然后打乱了录音的顺序，为 Verta 播放，一劳永逸地证明这是真的吗？
Can somebody tell if a chicken's cooked without any visual clues, without smell?
有人能在没有任何视觉线索、没有气味的情况下判断鸡肉是否煮熟吗？
OK, and so here is me playing the four recordings for Verta and her trying to pick out which one is the chicken when it's finished.
好的，这是我为 Verta 播放的四张录音，她在完成后试图选出哪一张是鸡。
Let's roll.
让我们滚吧。
And our listeners at home can play along with us here.
家里的听众也可以在这里和我们一起演奏。
Let's roll the first little sample sound.
让我们滚动第一个小样本声音。
I'd say that's something like the middle.
我想说的是中间的东西。
OK.
好的。
But that definitely isn't towards the end, you're saying.
但你说，这绝对还没有结束。
Yeah, it's in the middle going toward the end.
是的，从中间到最后。
It's in the 3/4 part.
是在3/4部分。
OK, let's hear sound number two, please.
好的，请听第二声。
Vertamae Grosvenor I think that's the beginning, more toward the beginning.
Vertamae Grosvenor 我认为这就是开始，更接近开始。
That is more toward the beginning.
这更接近开始。
And number four?
第四个呢？
[SLOWER SIZZLING] Vertamae Grosvenor That's an ender.
[慢速嘶嘶声] Vertamae Grosvenor 那是末影。
That's toward the end.
那是接近尾声了。
OK.
好的。
When all those little balls are forming on the bottom, those little, nice, crusty--
当所有这些小球在底部形成时，那些小而漂亮的硬皮——
Now, Verta, if you would have to hazard a guess as to which one would be the very last one--
现在，维塔，如果你必须冒险猜测哪一个是最后一个——
I'd still say it's one or two that's toward the end.
我仍然会说最后一两个。
The answer is number two, so Vertamae came reasonably close.
答案是第二，所以 Vertamae 相当接近。
But she was not totally certain.
但她并不完全确定。
Telling if a chicken is done only by sound turned out to be harder than she thought it to be.
仅通过声音来判断鸡是否已经熟了，结果比她想象的要困难。
Yes, it was hard.
是的，这很难。
You have to see it.
你必须看到它。
Do you know what I mean?
你知道我的意思吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Vertamae Grosvenor Oh, it's a serious-- it's a labor-intensive thing.
Vertamae Grosvenor 哦，这是一个严肃的问题——这是一个劳动密集型的事情。
You've got to stay on it.
你必须坚持下去。
You just can't be talking on the phone and watching TV.
你不能一边打电话一边看电视。
You got to stay on that chicken.
你必须留在那只鸡上。
I was asking your daughters today, and they were saying how they can also tell if rice is done by the sound.
我今天问你们的女儿们，她们说如何通过声音判断米饭是否熟了。
Oh, yeah, that's true.
哦，是的，确实如此。
Yeah, I taught them that.
是的，我教过他们。
Those are the kind of family values I taught my children.
这些就是我教给孩子们的家庭价值观。
Listen to the sound of the chicken.
听听鸡的声音。
[LAUGHTER] You know?
[笑声]你知道吗？
Listen to the sound of the rice.
听听米饭的声音。
Vertamae died four years ago.
维塔梅四年前去世。
And so I have to say, it got to me a little, listening to this next part of the interview where she talks about her daughters, and how happy it made her to hear what they said about her.
所以我不得不说，听采访的下一部分，她谈论她的女儿们，以及听到她们对她的评价让她感到多么高兴，这让我有点感动。
You talked to both of them?
你和他们两个都谈过吗？
Ira Glass I talked to both of them.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）我和他们俩都聊过。
[LAUGHS] Ira Glass They were both really funny.
[笑] Ira Glass 他们都很有趣。
One of them said, "Everything that she cooks is golden brown and perfect, perfect, perfect."
其中一位说：“她做的一切都是金黄色的，完美、完美、完美。”
Who said that?
谁说的？
Ira Glass I believe it was Chandra.
艾拉·格拉斯 我相信那是钱德拉。
Really?
真的吗？
Ira Glass But she said, "But just because we're her daughters, that doesn't mean that she tells us the real recipes.
艾拉·格拉斯 但她说：“但仅仅因为我们是她的女儿，并不意味着她告诉我们真正的食谱。
We ask her for the recipes and she tells us recipes.
我们向她要食谱，她告诉我们食谱。
But then when we cook them, they're not the same, and we know that she's holding back on ingredients."
但当我们烹饪它们时，它们就不一样了，我们知道她对原料有所保留。”
Well, that's not quite true.
嗯，这并不完全正确。
But you know--
但你知道——
Well, now, I just tell them.
好吧，现在，我只是告诉他们。
But then they have to find out the rest for themselves.
但接下来他们必须自己找出答案。
There you go.
就这样吧。
Vertamae Grosvenor You see what I'm saying?
Vertamae Grosvenor 你明白我在说什么吗？
I say, I put a little ginger in.
我说，我放了一点姜进去。
Now, I'm not going-- then they have to figure out how much a little ginger is.
现在，我不去了——然后他们必须算出一点生姜多少钱。
Yeah.
是的。
Vertamae Grosvenor That's what they have to do.
Vertamae Grosvenor 这就是他们必须做的。
Food, of course, really is everything.
当然，食物确实就是一切。
It's family, and it's culture, and it's tradition.
这是家庭，这是文化，这是传统。
It's improvisation and it's art.
这是即兴创作，也是艺术。
And today on our show, for Thanksgiving weekend, we put together a show made of stories we've done over the years about food.
今天，在我们的节目中，感恩节周末，我们整理了一个由我们多年来所做的有关食物的故事组成的节目。
In every one of these stories, somebody heads out on a quest, either to figure something out or to do something very differently with food than most of us do.
在每一个故事中，都有人踏上探索之路，要么想出一些办法，要么用食物做一些与我们大多数人截然不同的事情。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, "Dead Ringer." So a few years back, one of our producers, Ben Calhoun, set out on a mission much more eccentric and labor-intensive than figuring out if a chicken is done by listening to the sound.
第一幕，“死亡之铃”。因此，几年前，我们的制作人之一本·卡尔霍恩 (Ben Calhoun) 开始执行一项比通过听声音来判断鸡是否已熟的任务更加古怪和费力的任务。
Here he is.
他在这里。
I first heard about this whole thing in an email.
我第一次听说这整件事是在一封电子邮件中。
It came from a listener, a woman named Emily Rancer.
它来自一位听众，一位名叫艾米丽·兰瑟的女士。
She works in the food industry.
她在食品行业工作。
And the letter Emily wrote was about a story she'd heard from a farmer.
艾米丽写的信是关于她从一个农民那里听到的一个故事。
The farmer who told her this is apparently a person of some standing in the pork industry.
告诉她这件事的养殖户显然是猪肉行业里有一定地位的人。
And admittedly, I don't know the first thing about the pork industry.
诚然，我对猪肉行业一无所知。
But he's in charge of a pork-producing operation that spans several states.
但他负责一家横跨几个州的猪肉生产企业。
The story he told Emily went something like this.
他给艾米丽讲的故事是这样的。
A while ago, he was visiting a pork processing plant in Oklahoma.
不久前，他正在参观俄克拉荷马州的一家猪肉加工厂。
He's walking through it with a friend, a guy who managed the plant, actually.
他正在和一个朋友一起走过，实际上是一个管理工厂的人。
And at some point, he saw boxes stacked on the floor labeled, artificial calamari.
在某个时刻，他看到地板上堆放着盒子，上面贴着人造鱿鱼的标签。
He stood there, wondering for a second.
他站在那里，疑惑了一会儿。
And then he asked his friend, what's artificial calamari?
然后他问他的朋友，什么是人造鱿鱼？
Bung, his friend replied.
邦，他的朋友回答道。
It's hog rectum, rectum that would be sliced into rings, deep fried, and boom, there you have it.
这是猪直肠，直肠会被切成圈，油炸，然后繁荣，就是这样。
OK, if I can, let me just narrate for you what this would mean.
好吧，如果可以的话，让我为您讲述一下这意味着什么。
It would mean that in restaurants everywhere, right this second, people are squeezing lemon wedges over crispy, golden rings and dipping the rings into marinara sauce, and they're eating hog rectum.
这意味着在世界各地的餐馆里，就在此时此刻，人们正在把柠檬片挤在酥脆的金色圆环上，然后将圆环浸入番茄酱中，然后他们就吃着猪直肠。
Now they're chewing, satisfied and deeply clueless.
现在他们正在咀嚼，满足而又一无所知。
It's payback.
这是回报。
It's payback for our blissful ignorance about where our food comes from and how it gets to us.
这是对我们对食物从何而来以及如何到达我们的幸福无知的回报。
It's amazing, and it's perfect.
太棒了，而且很完美。
But it also seems like it couldn't possibly be true.
但这似乎也不可能是真的。
So I called up the farmer to talk to him personally, I wanted to hear it firsthand.
所以我打电话给那个农民，亲自和他谈谈，我想听听第一手资料。
And the farmer confirmed the story, the entire thing-- the boxes, the bung.
农夫证实了这个故事，整个事情——盒子、塞子。
But when I asked him to go on the record, to tape an interview and give his name here on the radio, he very politely declined, which seems suspicious, right?
但当我要求他记录下来，录制采访并在广播中说出他的名字时，他非常礼貌地拒绝了，这似乎很可疑，对吧？
When I asked him why, he said he'd spoken with his girlfriend about it, and she suggested that he should think about the words that he wanted to come up when somebody googled his name.
当我问他为什么时，他说他已经和他的女朋友谈过这件事了，她建议他应该考虑一下当有人用谷歌搜索他的名字时他想要出现的词。
This was all fine, though, because he referred me to the real expert, the guy who gave him the tour of the hog processing plant.
不过，这一切都很好，因为他向我推荐了真正的专家，那个带他参观生猪加工厂的人。
And that guy, he agreed to talk.
而那个家伙，他同意谈话。
Yeah, this is Ron Meek, meat processing plant manager, presently residing in Mountain View, Missouri, where he runs an organic beef processing plant there called Beyond Organic.
是的，我是罗恩·米克 (Ron Meek)，肉类加工厂经理，目前居住在密苏里州山景城，在那里经营一家名为 Beyond Organic 的有机牛肉加工厂。
If the story really were true, Ron would have been the guy who explained to the farmer what was in those boxes.
如果这个故事属实，罗恩就会向农夫解释那些盒子里装的是什么。
The boxes are 10-pound boxes.
盒子是10磅的盒子。
And they were all-- they cut off so much, like, maybe a 10 or 12-inch piece of the bung.
他们全部——他们切掉了很多东西，比如，也许是一块 10 或 12 英寸的塞子。
And you know what it looks like?
你知道它是什么样子吗？
This looks like-- after they're cleaned, and washed, and everything, they just look like a bunch of big noodles in a box is all it looks like.
这看起来就像——在它们被清理、清洗和所有东西之后，它们看起来就像盒子里的一堆大面条，就是它的样子。
But specifically, the labels that said "imitation calamari," where did you personally see the imitation calamari labels?
但具体来说，标签上写着“仿鱿鱼”，您个人是在哪里看到仿鱿鱼标签的？
Oh, I've never seen a label say that.
哦，我从来没有见过标签这么说。
That's all I was told by the people that told me that.
这就是那些告诉我这些的人告诉我的。
The people I worked for, they told me that.
我为之工作的人是这样告诉我的。
Oh, the people that you worked for told you that it was used for imitation calamari?
哦，你工作的人告诉你它是用来仿制鱿鱼的？
Right.
正确的。
Ben Calhoun And is there any possibility that you think that when they were explaining this to you that they were kind of having you on a little bit?
本·卡尔霍恩（Ben Calhoun）：你有没有可能认为，当他们向你解释这一点时，他们是在逗你一点？
Bull-[BLEEP] me?
牛-[哔]我？
Ben Calhoun [LAUGHS] Yeah.
本·卡尔霍恩 [笑] 是的。
Well, I wouldn't think that.
嗯，我不这么认为。
But you know, it could be 5%.
但你知道，可能是 5%。
It could have been that, you know?
可能就是这样，你知道吗？
But I seriously doubt it.
但我严重怀疑这一点。
OK, just to give a little better picture, a pork bung-- and bung is the actual industry term for it-- is long, and floppy, and ugly.
好吧，为了让大家看得更清楚，猪肉塞子——塞子是它的实际行业术语——又长又松软，而且丑陋。
At one end, it widens out into this more bulbous shape, like a pink, wrinkly pear.
在一端，它变宽成球状的形状，就像一个粉红色的、有皱纹的梨子。
That's the rectum.
那是直肠。
At the other end, it narrows into a soft, pinkish-white tube.
在另一端，它变窄成一个柔软的粉白色管子。
I know.
我知道。
It sounds gross.
听起来很恶心。
But also, consider we are a nation that eats more than a billion pounds of sausage every year-- billion, with a B.
而且，考虑到我们是一个每年消耗超过 10 亿磅香肠的国家——十亿磅，其中有 B.
Maybe you like liverwurst, or capicola, or summer sausage with a natural casing.
也许您喜欢肝香肠、卡皮科拉香肠或带天然肠衣的夏季香肠。
Then you, like me, have eaten bung-- stuffed, dried bung.
然后你，像我一样，吃了塞子——塞满的干塞子。
A lot of brats and Italian sausages are stuffed in intestine.
肠子里塞满了很多臭小子和意大利香肠。
So if you eat those regularly, you pretty much live up the street from bung.
因此，如果你经常吃这些东西，你几乎就住在街上。
So why does the idea of a fried ring of bung just feel grosser?
那么，为什么炸一圈塞子的想法感觉更恶心呢？
Well, partly, it's the visual, right?
嗯，部分原因是视觉，对吧？
When you see that little ring of calamari, you don't want to picture it in the context of a pig's behind.
当你看到那一小圈鱿鱼时，你不会想把它想象成猪的屁股。
Then there are all the people who don't eat pork, period.
然后还有所有不吃猪肉的人。
Ron said there's also another reason.
罗恩说还有一个原因。
Just because of the word bung, probably.
可能只是因为“bung”这个词。
People don't just want to jump up and say, man, I'm going to eat me some bung tonight.
人们不只是想跳起来说，伙计，我今晚要吃点东西。
That's just the way it is.
事情就是这样。
But the big question, the question you've been thinking about since we got on this topic, have you or I eaten imitation calamari, bung dressed up as seafood?
但最大的问题，自从我们讨论这个话题以来，你一直在思考的问题是，你或我吃过仿鱿鱼吗？
Well, Ron didn't know.
嗯，罗恩不知道。
He said his plant exported a lot of their bung to Asia.
他说他的工厂将大量的瓶盖出口到亚洲。
But he just didn't know much about whatever happened after it left the door, so he could only speculate.
但对于它走出门后发生的事情他也不太了解，所以只能猜测。
Anything, he said, would be a wild guess.
他说，任何事情都只是疯狂的猜测。
So I turned to people who would know.
所以我求助于那些知道的人。
Is pork bung being falsely peddled as calamari?
猪内脏是否被冒充鱿鱼兜售？
I called the USDA.
我打电话给美国农业部。
The USDA's food inspection service issued the following statement to me.
美国农业部食品检验局向我发表了以下声明。
"Products we inspect, including those derived from pork, must be accurately labeled and cannot purport to be a product of another species."
“我们检查的产品，包括来自猪肉的产品，必须准确贴上标签，并且不能声称是其他物种的产品。”
So it's against the rules, but people break the rules.
所以这是违反规则的，但人们却违反了规则。
A recent study of seafood by a group called Oceana used DNA testing and found that all across the country, fish is regularly being labeled as other species in restaurants and in grocery stores-- escolar sold as white tuna, Pacific rockfish being fraudulently sold as snapper.
最近，Oceana 组织对海鲜进行的一项 DNA 测试发现，在全国范围内，餐馆和杂货店里的鱼经常被贴上其他物种的标签，如白鲔鱼以白金枪鱼的名义出售，太平洋石斑鱼被冒充为鲷鱼出售。
In Miami, more than 30% of fish was being sold as something it wasn't.
在迈阿密，超过 30% 的鱼被当作假货出售。
In New York, the number was 39%.
在纽约，这一数字为 39%。
Boston, 48%.
波士顿，48%。
Los Angeles-- are you ready?
洛杉矶——你准备好了吗？
55%.
55%。
55%.
55%。
That means if you order fish in LA, you are most likely eating a species you did not order.
这意味着如果您在洛杉矶点鱼，您很可能吃的是您没有点的鱼。
In other words, seafood substitution is rampant in this country.
换句话说，海鲜替代品在这个国家很猖獗。
And depending on where you live, from what I can tell, you can get cleaned hog bung for about half the price of clean squid.
据我所知，根据你住的地方，你可以花大约一半的干净鱿鱼价格买到干净的猪粪。
So there would be money in it, if you could pull off the switch.
所以如果你能拉开开关的话，里面就会有钱。
And as best as I can tell, were you to do this, you would not be caught.
据我所知，如果你这样做，你就不会被抓住。
A lawyer who's familiar with this area of law and regulation told me, once bung leaves the plant, there is a variety of agencies and entities that would be in play-- USDA, FDA, state and local government.
一位熟悉这一领域法律和法规的律师告诉我，一旦塞特离开工厂，就会有各种机构和实体发挥作用——美国农业部、食品药品监督管理局、州和地方政府。
But ultimately, he said, the regulation we have is not designed to catch an offense like this.
但他说，归根结底，我们的法规并不是为了抓获此类违法行为而设计的。
It's aimed mostly at sanitation and food safety.
它主要针对卫生和食品安全。
So bottom line, the lawyer said, if somebody wanted to do it, chances are they'd get away with it.
律师说，底线是，如果有人想这么做，他们很可能会侥幸逃脱惩罚。
So is someone out there doing this?
那么有人在这样做吗？
Well, for weeks, I looked for an answer.
好吧，几个星期以来，我一直在寻找答案。
The USDA says they've never heard of anyone trying to pass pork bung as squid or any other species.
美国农业部表示，他们从未听说过有人试图将猪肉内脏冒充鱿鱼或任何其他物种。
[PHONE RINGS] I contacted the National Restaurant Association, the National Pork Producers Council, the National Pork Board--
[电话铃声]我联系了国家餐馆协会、国家猪肉生产者委员会、国家猪肉委员会——
Hello?
你好？
Ben Calhoun --a squid fishermen's association--
本·卡尔霍恩——鱿鱼渔民协会——
--Sysco and other big food and restaurant supply companies.
--Sysco 和其他大型食品和餐厅供应公司。
It's hog what?
这是猪什么？
Ben Calhoun Bung.
本·卡尔霍恩·邦。
Hog rectum.
猪直肠。
Oh my gosh.
天哪。
Ben Calhoun That's the executive director of the California Wetfish Producers Association.
本·卡尔霍恩 这是加州湿鱼生产者协会的执行董事。
But the answer was pretty much always the same, nobody had heard of it.
但答案几乎总是一样，没有人听说过。
But almost to a person, they added that that doesn't mean it's not happening somewhere.
但几乎对一个人来说，他们补充说，这并不意味着它不会在某个地方发生。
Ron Meeks said a lot of the bung from his plant got exported.
罗恩·米克斯说，他工厂的很多瓶盖都出口了。
So my next call was to the US Meat Export Federation, which confirmed that, quote, "The main destinations for pork bungs are China, Hong Kong, Japan, Taiwan, Korea, and the Philippines.
因此，我的下一个电话是给美国肉类出口联合会，该联合会证实，“猪肉内脏的主要目的地是中国、香港、日本、台湾、韩国和菲律宾。
They are mainly used for processing, but we are aware of some uses in soups and certain entrees.
它们主要用于加工，但我们知道在汤和某些主菜中也有一些用途。
We are not aware of them being used as a substitute for calamari, but it's not impossible," unquote.
我们不知道它们被用作鱿鱼的替代品，但这并非不可能，”引述道。
So over the past few weeks, I've called Asian food suppliers, people who live in, work in, and eat in those countries.
因此，在过去的几周里，我给亚洲食品供应商、在这些国家生活、工作和饮食的人们打电话。
I talked to a woman named Corinne Trang, who's written an overarching compendium of Asian cuisines.
我和一位名叫 Corinne Trang 的女士交谈过，她写了一本亚洲美食的总体纲要。
I've talked to academics at NYU, and Haverford, and USC, and Harvard.
我曾与纽约大学、哈弗福德大学、南加州大学和哈佛大学的学者进行过交谈。
I've reached out to chefs who know Asian food.
我已经联系了了解亚洲美食的厨师。
The answer, again, always similar-- never heard of it, but it's possible, partly because bung doesn't have such a complicated reputation in Asia where it has to be some kind of secret ingredient, like it does here.
答案总是相似的——从来没有听说过，但有可能，部分原因是桶塞在亚洲没有如此复杂的声誉，在那里它必须是某种秘密成分，就像在这里一样。
On the other hand, though, people pointed out that in Korea and Japan, you can't get more than a few hours from the ocean.
但另一方面，人们指出，在韩国和日本，离开海洋的时间最多只能几个小时。
Squid is cheap and it's readily available.
鱿鱼价格便宜，而且很容易买到。
You'd only eat a substitute if you wanted the substitute.
如果你想要替代品，你只会吃替代品。
Generally, people said, if the switch was happening somewhere, they guessed China.
一般来说，人们说，如果这种转变发生在某个地方，他们猜测是中国。
Eventually, I found my way to this guy who I was really excited about, someone who I thought might have my answer.
最终，我找到了这个令我非常兴奋的人，我认为他可能会给我答案。
He was-- get this-- an anthropologist who lived and worked in China for 40 years where he studied food, and specifically, meat.
他是一位人类学家，在中国生活和工作了 40 年，研究食物，特别是肉类。
When I talked to him, though, he made two points.
不过，当我与他交谈时，他提出了两点。
Point one, my question about this happening in Asia was racist.
第一，我对亚洲发生的这种情况的疑问是种族主义的。
Even just asking the question was racist because it plays on ignorant stereotypes about other cultures eating things that we perceive as weird.
即使只是问这个问题也是种族主义，因为它利用了人们对其他文化吃我们认为奇怪的东西的无知刻板印象。
Point two was that Ron Meek, my guy from the pig plant, Ron was pulling my leg.
第二点是罗恩·米克，我养猪厂的人，罗恩在开我的玩笑。
And he was getting away with it because I was a dumbass.
他却侥幸逃脱了惩罚，因为我是个笨蛋。
He told me more than once that I should, quote, "find something worthwhile to do with myself." When we ended our conversation, he told me that he was refusing to even dignify what I was doing by appearing on the radio or by letting me use his name.
他不止一次告诉我，我应该“为自己找到一些值得做的事情”。当我们结束谈话时，他告诉我，他甚至拒绝出现在广播中或让我使用他的名字来维护我所做的事情。
OK, so to respond to his points one by one, first, am I racist against Asians?
好的，那么一一回应他的观点，第一，我对亚洲人有种族歧视吗？
Well, I'm half-Chinese.
嗯，我是半个中国人。
My mom's Chinese.
我妈妈是中国人。
Like anyone, I've had the occasional issue with my mother, but this has not been one of them.
和其他人一样，我偶尔也会与母亲发生争执，但这不是其中之一。
We grew up eating chicken feet and fish eyes, and I think it's possible to raise the question of who eats what without being racist.
我们是吃鸡爪和鱼眼长大的，我认为可以在不带有种族主义的情况下提出谁吃什么的问题。
His second point, though, that Ron Meek was pulling my leg-- the guy was still an expert on meat in China.
不过，他的第二点是，罗恩·米克在开玩笑——这家伙仍然是中国的肉类专家。
So I called Ron back.
所以我给罗恩回了电话。
All right, shoot me some questions, dude.
好吧，请问我一些问题，伙计。
I told him the whole thing, about the anthropologist, about what he said.
我告诉了他整个事情，关于人类学家，关于他所说的话。
I guess, the only thing I want to ask you is are you messing with me?
我想，我唯一想问你的是，你是在惹我吗？
No. That was what my boss told me.
不，那是我老板告诉我的。
I was like, what the hell do we save these hog bungs for?
我当时想，我们到底要留这些猪屁股做什么？
He says, they use them for imitation squid and stuff like that.
他说，他们用它们来模仿鱿鱼之类的东西。
But so in your heart of hearts, you believe it.
但在你内心深处，你相信这一点。
Yeah, man.
是的，伙计。
I ain't going to set here and tell you things that are bull-[BLEEP] and play with you when I'm just going off of my knowledge of saving hog bungs.
我不会在这里告诉你一些胡说八道的事情——[哔]，当我刚刚摆脱我拯救猪塞的知识时和你一起玩。
You got to think about how far advanced slaughterhouses are, especially big ones, that want to make every penny count.
你必须考虑先进的屠宰场有多先进，尤其是大型屠宰场，它们希望让每一分钱都发挥作用。
Like the one I worked at, you bring the pigs in.
就像我工作过的那样，你把猪带进来。
You stun them, then you stick them.
你击晕他们，然后粘住他们。
And the blood goes off into a trough.
血液流入槽中。
And it goes down, and it's vacuum sucked out of there with a vacuum into centrifuges.
然后它下降，然后用真空将其吸出并进入离心机。
And they separate the blood from the blood plasma.
他们将血液与血浆分离。
Mhm.
嗯。
Ron Meek And they save that.
Ron Meek 他们保存了这个。
They save the lungs.
他们拯救肺部。
They save the pancreas.
他们拯救了胰腺。
They save the spleens.
他们拯救脾脏。
They save the hearts.
他们拯救人心。
The only thing left, by the time it's all said and done, is a skull and jaw bones.
当这一切都说完了之后，剩下的唯一的东西就是头骨和颌骨。
You can be an anthropologist all you want.
你可以成为一名你想要的人类学家。
If you don't work in a processing plant, you don't know [BLEEP].
如果您不在加工厂工作，您就不知道[BLEEP]。
I contacted the plant Ron worked at where this happened.
我联系了罗恩工作的工厂（发生这种情况）。
And for what it's worth, they backed him up.
不管怎样，他们都支持他。
They said their sales team had heard of people eating pork bung as imitation calamari, though they hadn't witnessed it firsthand or heard it directly from a customer.
他们说，他们的销售团队听说过人们把猪内脏当作仿鱿鱼吃，尽管他们没有亲眼目睹或直接从顾客那里听到过。
It was all hearsay.
这都是道听途说。
So at the end of all this, I still had no proof that anyone was passing off bung as squid.
所以到最后，我仍然没有证据表明有人冒充鱿鱼。
Then I realized, I hadn't asked the more basic question here.
然后我意识到，我没有在这里问更基本的问题。
Could bung do it?
邦格能做到吗？
Could it pass as calamari?
它能被当作鱿鱼吗？
And that question led me to a guy named Eddie Lin.
这个问题让我找到了一个叫艾迪·林的人。
Eddie Lin has eaten a lot of bung.
林埃迪吃了不少屎。
At least a hundred times, he said, probably more.
他说，至少一百次，或许更多。
Eddie has an extreme food blog called Deep End Dining and an online TV show called Kamikaze Kitchen.
艾迪有一个名为 Deep End Dining 的极限美食博客和一个名为 Kamikaze Kitchen 的在线电视节目。
I could definitely see a resemblance texturewise.
我绝对可以看到纹理上的相似之处。
Oh, really?
哦真的吗？
Eddie Lin Yeah, yeah, definitely.
林艾迪 是的，是的，绝对是。
They're sort of a rubbery texture, sort of like a calamari.
它们的质地有点像橡胶，有点像鱿鱼。
Huh.
呵呵。
Eddie Lin But you would really have to get rid of that, needless to say, foul flavor and odor from the bung.
埃迪·林（Eddie Lin）但是，不用说，你真的必须除去桶塞中的恶臭和气味。
Somehow, I hadn't figured that the bung, once it was scrubbed, and rinsed, and cleaned with steam, that it would still taste like-- you know.
不知何故，我没有想到，一旦用蒸汽擦洗、冲洗和清洁了塞子，它的味道仍然会像——你知道的。
So yeah, you would definitely have to do some major, major blanching [LAUGHS] or brining.
所以，是的，你肯定需要做一些大的、大的热烫[笑]或腌制。
I meant brining, yeah.
我的意思是腌制，是的。
Mhm.
嗯。
Just to try to leach those flavors out of there.
只是想把那些味道从那里滤出来。
Yeah, those flavors have been marinating in that pig for quite a while, so--
是的，那些味道已经在那头猪身上腌了很长一段时间了，所以——
He thought it wouldn't be easy, but he thought it could be done.
他认为这并不容易，但他认为这是可以做到的。
And there was only one way to tell if he was right, to cook up some bung and eat it.
只有一种方法可以判断他的说法是否正确，那就是煮一些木塞然后吃掉。
And if the taste was overwhelming and the texture was all wrong, well, then I'd have my answer.
如果味道太强烈并且质地完全错误，那么我就会得到我的答案。
And at this point-- I'll be frank-- I started to root for the bung.
在这一点上——坦白说——我开始支持这个塞子。
I realized that this is not a story about fraud.
我意识到这不是一个关于欺诈的故事。
It's not a bait-and-switch story.
这不是一个诱饵和开关的故事。
It's a story about possibility.
这是一个关于可能性的故事。
It's classic rags-to-riches.
这是典型的白手起家。
It's about whether a cut of meat, perhaps the lowliest, most malignable cut of meat in America, might somehow, in at least one place on the planet, be dipped in the redemptive oils of the great culinary equalizer that is the deep fryer.
这是关于一块肉，也许是美国最低级、最可恶的一块肉，是否可以以某种方式，在地球上至少一个地方，浸入伟大的烹饪均衡器——油炸锅的救赎油中。
And it might emerge transformed, no longer an outcast, but instead, hair combed, clean shaven, in a suit and tie, it might walk reborn onto a table.
它可能会脱胎换骨，不再是一个被遗弃的人，而是头发梳理整齐，刮得干干净净，穿着西装打着领带，它可能会重获新生，走上桌子。
Through shear force of resemblance, it might be loved.
通过相似的剪切力，它可能会被爱。
Its history, years of drudgery and hardship, doing the body's least glamorous job all washed away.
它的历史、多年的苦差事、从事身体最不光彩的工作都被冲走了。
No, this is not the story of a conman like Bernie Madoff.
不，这不是伯尼·麦道夫这样的骗子的故事。
It's Pretty Woman.
原来是《漂亮女人》
This is whether Goodwill Hunting finds his way out of Southie.
这就是亲善狩猎是否能从南西找到出路。
It's whether Charlie, on that very last chocolate bar, really can get a golden ticket.
问题是查理在最后一块巧克力上是否真的能得到一张金券。
To do all this, to try it, I called my little sister, Lauren.
为了做到这一切，为了尝试，我打电话给我的妹妹劳伦。
She's a chef, trained abroad at the Cordon Bleu.
她是一名厨师，在蓝带国际学院接受过海外培训。
Worked at Michelin star restaurants.
曾在米其林星级餐厅工作。
She's that kind of chef.
她就是这样的厨师。
Soon, we were standing in front of a deli case.
很快，我们就站在了一个熟食柜前。
And I don't know why I feel hesitant about saying this, because I don't think it's racist.
我不知道为什么我对这么说感到犹豫，因为我不认为这是种族主义。
It was in Chinatown.
那是在唐人街。
Pork bung, there it is.
猪肉塞，就在那里。
Look at it.
看看它。
It looks like the sphincter.
它看起来像括约肌。
Wait.
等待。
What do you mean it looks like a--
你是什么意思，它看起来像——
This one up here that's cut up, it looks like a butt hole.
这里这个被切开的，看起来像屁股上的洞。
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
It does.
确实如此。
And Lauren had theories about pulling it off-- brining, soaking, maybe braising.
劳伦有一些关于如何做到这一点的理论——腌制、浸泡，也许还有炖。
But once we got to the store, once she'd seen the meat up close, her doubts got worse.
但当我们到达商店后，当她近距离看到肉时，她的疑虑变得更加严重。
I think after looking at it, I don't think that-- I don't think it's going to--
我认为看完之后，我不认为——我不认为它会——
No. It's too thick.
不行，太厚了。
There's too much-- there's too much, like, muscle tissue.
太多了——太多了，比如肌肉组织。
It's too thick.
太厚了。
You'd have to use a ring cutter to make it the right thickness.
您必须使用环刀才能使其达到合适的厚度。
What do you think those bits are in there?
你认为这些东西在里面是什么？
Oh, you know, poo.
哦，你知道，便便。
Ben Calhoun My sister said Eddie Lin was definitely right.
本·卡尔霍恩 我姐姐说艾迪·林绝对是对的。
The giveaway would be the stubborn flavor of poo.
赠品是粪便的顽固味道。
That flavor, she said, it's tough to get rid of.
她说，那种味道很难摆脱。
The Earth revolves around the Sun, and bung will always taste like [BLEEP].
地球绕着太阳转，而塞子的味道总是像[BLEEP]。
But there was no backing out now.
但现在已经没有退路了。
We would eat.
我们会吃饭。
We would eat our way to the truth.
我们会通过吃东西来找到真相。
And so what if it didn't look good?
如果看起来不好看怎么办？
So what if bung was destined to taste like bung?
那么，如果塞子注定尝起来像塞子又怎么样呢？
You know who it didn't look good for, and he still put up a fight?
你知道谁看起来不好看，但他仍然坚持战斗吗？
Rocky Balboa, that's who.
洛基·巴尔博亚，就是这样的人。
This was it, the bung versus calamari, squid versus tail, the rumble in the bung hole.
就是这样，塞子与鱿鱼，鱿鱼与尾巴，塞子孔中的隆隆声。
We set up the tasting at a restaurant, in the lull between lunch and dinner.
我们在午餐和晚餐之间的间歇时间在一家餐厅安排了品尝活动。
In the dining room, there was just a few tables eating.
餐厅里，只有几张桌子在吃饭。
And all around the restaurant, the morning shift was wrapping up as we walked in with a red cooler filled with squid and hog bung.
当我们带着装满鱿鱼和猪粪的红色冷藏箱走进餐厅时，早班已经结束了。
So originally, I'd recruited some half a dozen people from our office at This American Life as tasters.
所以最初，我从《This American Life》的办公室招募了六名左右的人作为品酒师。
The final group the day of the tasting included, from the office, Seth Lind and Brian Reed.
品酒会当天的最后一组成员包括来自办公室的 Seth Lind 和 Brian Reed。
So when's the last time that you guys had calamari?
那么你们最后一次吃鱿鱼是什么时候？
I had calamari probably like a month ago.
我大概一个月前吃过鱿鱼。
And what about you, Brian?
那么你呢，布莱恩？
Brian Reed I haven't had it since we got this tip about the possible--
布莱恩·里德 (Brian Reed) 自从我们收到有关可能的消息以来，我还没有收到过它——
Yeah, no, totally.
是的，不，完全如此。
And to be honest, I ate calamari pretty-- I'm a regular eater of calamari.
说实话，我吃鱿鱼很美味——我经常吃鱿鱼。
Not like all the time.
不像一直那样。
But it's something I'll routinely order if it's on an appetizer menu.
但如果它出现在开胃菜菜单上，我通常会点它。
Yeah.
是的。
I grew up in an Italian-American family, where my grandparents were also born here.
我在一个意大利裔美国人家庭长大，我的祖父母也出生在这里。
I feel like calamari is just big among that sector of people, at Olive Garden and stuff like that.
我觉得鱿鱼在橄榄园之类的人群中很重要。
So I just grew up eating it, you know?
所以我就是吃它长大的，你知道吗？
I hadn't realized this.
我没有意识到这一点。
For weeks, Brian had been avoiding calamari.
几周来，布莱恩一直在避免吃鱿鱼。
He'd been living in fear.
他一直生活在恐惧之中。
Brian, if you find out that they're indiscernible from each other, will you ever eat calamari again?
布莱恩，如果你发现他们彼此难以辨认，你还会再吃鱿鱼吗？
No, I don't think so.
不，我不这么认为。
That's why I want to do this, just to know going forward.
这就是为什么我想这样做，只是想知道未来的发展。
Back in the kitchen, things were looking bad.
回到厨房，事情看起来很糟糕。
I'd given up on the idea that bung would taste the same as calamari.
我已经放弃了桶塞尝起来和鱿鱼一样的想法。
Now I'd hung my hopes on the idea that, at least visually, it would look the same.
现在我把希望寄托在这样的想法上：至少在视觉上，它看起来是一样的。
But as my sister dropped the floured rings of hog bung into the fryer, they had turned into this kind of big, ugly, tangled wad-- nothing like the jiggly squid rings.
但当我姐姐把撒了面粉的猪圈扔进油炸锅时，它们就变成了这种又大又丑又乱七八糟的一团——一点也不像摇摇晃晃的鱿鱼圈。
But then, as if by a miracle, they changed.
但后来，奇迹般地，他们发生了变化。
My sister gave a shake to the fry basket.
姐姐摇晃着炸篮。
And as they sizzled, the bung just seemed to gracefully snap into rings.
当它们嘶嘶作响时，塞子似乎优雅地卡入环中。
Oh, look at that, though.
哦，看看那个。
It's like magic.
这就像魔法一样。
They're turning into circles.
他们正在变成圆圈。
Yeah.
是的。
So I'm going to pull these first ones.
所以我要先拉这些。
Soon, we were face to face with the plate.
很快，我们就和盘子面对面了。
On it, there were two piles of rings, similar in size, similar in shape.
上面，有两堆戒指，大小相似，形状相似。
The bung had more of a frizzly edge to it, kind of like a fancy onion ring.
瓶塞的边缘更多的是卷曲的，有点像一个漂亮的洋葱圈。
The calamari was smoother.
鱿鱼更光滑。
I asked Seth and Brian to just give a first impression.
我请赛斯和布莱恩留下第一印象。
I have a guess.
我有一个猜测。
But I could-- it's one the things where you're pretty sure, but you could totally be wrong.
但我可以——这是一件你非常确定的事情，但你可能完全错了。
God, I thought I would be more sure.
天哪，我以为我会更加确定。
I don't-- I'm waffling now.
我不——我现在胡言乱语。
My gut reaction-- my gut reaction is that this was calamari, and this was not.
我的直觉反应——我的直觉反应是这是鱿鱼，而这不是。
OK, before you eat it, see, I totally thought this was calamari, the other one.
好吧，在你吃之前，看，我完全以为这是另一个鱿鱼。
OK.
好的。
Seth Lind So I'm going to do it at the same time.
Seth Lind：所以我会同时做。
All right.
好的。
Ben Calhoun OK, so just to be clear what's going on here, Seth has chosen one pile of rings, which he thinks is calamari.
本·卡尔霍恩：好吧，为了弄清楚这里发生了什么，塞斯选择了一堆戒指，他认为这是鱿鱼。
Brian has done the same thing, only Brian is choosing the other stack of fried rings.
布莱恩也做了同样的事情，只是布莱恩选择了另一堆炸环。
OK, so we're about to bite into these simultaneously, which we both think this is calamari.
好的，所以我们要同时咬这些，我们都认为这是鱿鱼。
So in actuality, Seth is right.
所以事实上，赛斯是对的。
Seth is eating calamari.
赛斯正在吃鱿鱼。
The chewing you hear from Brian's mic, that is the sound of a calamari lover eating fried pig rectum.
你从布莱恩的麦克风中听到的咀嚼声，是鱿鱼爱好者吃炸猪直肠的声音。
I should also add, there were actually two varieties of bung on the plate that day.
我还应该补充一点，那天盘子里实际上有两种不同的塞子。
One bung that my sister had blanched over and over to mellow any organy fecal flavor, and then untreated, straight-up bung, unfiltered, unchained, uncut, 100% pure bung.
一个塞子是我姐姐一遍又一遍地焯过的，以软化任何有机粪便的味道，然后是未经处理的、直接的塞子，未过滤、未束缚、未切割、100%纯的塞子。
That one, the latter one, bung at its purest, at the height of its bunginess, this is what Brian was eating.
那个，后一个，最纯粹的，最松软的，这就是布莱恩正在吃的东西。
As they ate, Seth still looked confident.
他们吃饭时，赛斯看上去仍然充满自信。
I think I was right.
我想我是对的。
Ben Calhoun Really?
本·卡尔霍恩 真的吗？
[LAUGHS] Yeah.
[笑]是的。
I totally think I was right.
我完全认为我是对的。
Game, set, match, bung.
比赛、比赛、比赛、比赛。
And it wasn't just Brian.
不仅仅是布莱恩。
I thought so.
我是这么想的。
Damian, who manages the restaurant, he also thought it was passable.
经营餐厅的达米安（Damian）也认为还过得去。
A few of us picked up a faint flavor of pork rind.
我们几个人闻到一股淡淡的猪皮味。
But if you weren't really looking for it, you wouldn't notice it was there.
但如果你不是认真寻找它，你就不会注意到它的存在。
One of the restaurant staff, a guy named Ethan Van Buren, had the simplest, clearest explanation.
餐厅的一位工作人员，名叫伊桑·范布伦（Ethan Van Buren），给出了最简单、最清晰的解释。
I think that when you slice something up really thin and deep fry it, it's going to taste like something that's been deep fried.
我认为当你把东西切成薄片然后油炸时，它的味道就会像油炸过的东西。
If a plateful of the bung came out, how many people do you think would even-- do you think you'd notice if you were in that setting?
如果一盘桶塞出来，你认为有多少人会——你认为如果你在那种环境下你会注意到吗？
I'd say top scenario is somebody says, this calamari tastes funny, and keeps eating it.
我想说最常见的情况是有人说，这个鱿鱼味道很奇怪，并且一直在吃它。
And as for Brian-- oh, Brian-- Brian was reeling a bit, trying to figure out just what this was going to mean for him.
至于布莱恩——哦，布莱恩——布莱恩有点晕眩，试图弄清楚这对他意味着什么。
I'm sure I've been fooled in the past.
我确信我过去被愚弄过。
I'm just, like, sure of it.
我只是确信这一点。
Oh, you're thinking that you've been places in the past, and you've had bung?
哦，你认为你过去曾去过那些地方，并且经历过大事？
I just imagine seeing a plate with this food that looks like this on it, sitting with my family growing up.
我只是想象看到一个盘子里有这样的食物，和我的家人坐在一起长大。
We definitely have eaten something that tasted like this and just thought it was calamari, for sure.
我们肯定吃过这样的东西，并且只是认为它是鱿鱼，当然。
Not only wasn't he sure if he'd ever eat calamari again, he didn't want to eat the calamari on the plate in front of him, calamari I guaranteed him was real.
他不仅不确定自己是否还会再吃鱿鱼，而且他也不想吃面前盘子里的鱿鱼，我保证他是真的鱿鱼。
Just to repeat one last time, I have no proof that anyone, anywhere has ever tried to pass off pork bung as calamari in a restaurant.
最后重复一遍，我没有证据表明任何地方的任何人曾经试图在餐馆里将猪肉桶冒充成鱿鱼。
All I know is if you wanted to do it, it would be easy.
我只知道如果你想这么做，那会很容易。
And I'm choosing to believe that it's happening somewhere, because at some point in working on this story, I stopped identifying with Brian and anyone who might feel ripped off or grossed out by getting imitation instead of the real thing.
我选择相信它发生在某个地方，因为在写这个故事的某个时刻，我不再认同布莱恩和任何可能因为得到模仿而不是真实的东西而感到被欺骗或恶心的人。
Now, I identify with the bung.
现在，我认同这个塞子。
And I'd like to think that somewhere out there, right now, under a heat lamp, a platter is sitting.
我想现在就在外面的某个地方，在一盏热灯下，放着一个盘子。
It's warm, and it's full of promise, and transformation, and redemption.
它很温暖，充满希望、转变和救赎。
That's the world that I'll choose to live in, for me, for you, for the bung, for the bung in all of us.
这就是我选择生活在的世界，为了我，为了你，为了我们所有人。
Ben Calhoun is one of the producers of our program.
本·卡尔霍恩是我们节目的制作人之一。
Ladies and gentlemen, before you swear off calamari forever, please, please notice that Ben is only saying that it is possible that this is happening, that he did not find actual documented proof that pig bung is being substituted for calamari, abroad or especially here in the United States.
女士们先生们，在你们发誓永远不再吃鱿鱼之前，请注意，本只是说这种情况有可能正在发生，他没有找到实际的书面证据证明猪粪正在国外，尤其是在美国取代鱿鱼。
Coming up, cooking chicken for dinner right in front of the chicken who is your pet, who you live with, who watches you do it.
即将到来，在鸡面前煮鸡肉作为晚餐，鸡是你的宠物，和你住在一起，谁看着你做这件事。
That's in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.
稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program, turkey and a face mask.
今天的节目，火鸡和口罩。
For the holiday season, this unusual COVID Thanksgiving, when so many things about the holiday are different, we put together a show with stories about food that we have done over the years.
在这个不同寻常的新冠感恩节假期里，这个假期的很多事情都不同了，我们整理了一个节目，讲述了我们多年来所做的关于食物的故事。
We've arrived at Act Two of our program.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。
Act Two, "Still Life with Chicken."
第二幕，“有鸡的静物”。
So Jonathan Gold was a kind of legendary food writer, invented this way of writing about restaurants that treated hole-in-the-wall places and street food with the same seriousness that other restaurant critics had always written about fancy places.
因此，乔纳森·戈尔德（Jonathan Gold）是一位传奇美食作家，他发明了这种方式来描写餐馆，这些餐馆以其他餐馆评论家总是描写高档餐馆的严肃态度来对待简陋的餐馆和街头小吃。
This led to a whole genre of food writing and TV shows, like Anthony Bourdain.
这催生了一系列美食写作和电视节目，例如安东尼·波登（Anthony Bourdain）。
And before he died in 2018, Jonathan was on our show a couple times.
在 2018 年去世之前，乔纳森曾多次出现在我们的节目中。
And this interview that I want to play you now, it was one of those conversations that just-- it ended in a very different place than it began, as you'll hear.
我现在想对你进行的这次采访，是那些对话之一，它的结束位置与开始的地方非常不同，正如你会听到的那样。
It ended with him talking about-- I don't even know how exactly what to call it-- but the nature of eating.
最后他谈到了——我什至不知道该怎么称呼它——但是饮食的本质。
But it began with Jonathan explaining to me how he ended up living with a chicken.
但这是从乔纳森向我解释他最终如何与一只鸡生活在一起开始的。
He explained that that happened by accident.
他解释说，这是偶然发生的。
When he was in his 20s, he was not living the kind of life one usually associates with chickens.
当他20多岁的时候，他过的并不是人们通常认为的鸡的生活。
This was during the period when I considered myself to be a performance artist of sort-- a naked performance artist, to be specific.
那是在我认为自己是一个行为艺术家的时期——具体来说，是一个裸体的行为艺术家。
He was putting together a performance.
他正在组织一场表演。
He had a PA system, which could put out the requisite amount of annoying feedback sound at high decibels.
他有一个扩音系统，可以发出必要数量的高分贝恼人的反馈声音。
He had the two full bottles of Glade American Beauty air freshener, which he would spray in their entirety in the performance space.
他有两整瓶 Glade American Beauty 空气清新剂，他会把它们全部喷在表演场地上。
And he had a live chicken, which he bought the day before the performance from one of those Chinese poultry markets in Los Angeles.
他还有一只活鸡，是他在演出前一天从洛杉矶的一个中国家禽市场买的。
And comes the day of the show, an audience gathers in a darkened warehouse in West LA.
演出当天，观众聚集在洛杉矶西部一个黑暗的仓库里。
I don't know if you've been to a lot of performance art, but this was sort of really typical of the stuff that was going on in the period.
我不知道你是否看过很多行为艺术，但这确实是那个时期发生的事情的典型。
And I showed up.
我出现了。
And I was naked.
我赤身裸体。
And I was carrying a machete.
我还带着一把砍刀。
And I was blindfolded.
我被蒙住了眼睛。
And I stood in the middle of this pile of supermarket chickens, like the broilers that you buy.
我站在这堆超市鸡肉中间，就像你买的肉鸡一样。
And the chicken that I had bought was tethered to a 3-foot rope around me.
我买的那只鸡被拴在一根 3 英尺长的绳子上。
And I hacked up and down blindly with a machete.
我还拿着砍刀盲目地上下砍伐。
Well, I was blindfolded, so I didn't know if it was towards the chicken or not.
好吧，我被蒙住了眼睛，所以我不知道它是否是针对鸡的。
And I had fully intended that, in fact, I would kill the chicken in the midst of the performance.
事实上，我完全想在表演过程中杀鸡。
But chickens aren't that stupid.
但鸡没那么傻。
And this chicken wanted no part of the machete.
这只鸡不想要砍刀的一部分。
It stayed at the end of its rope the entire time, apparently.
显然，它自始至终都处于束手无策的状态。
And after 10 minutes, when I was completely exhausted, I fell to a heap.
10分钟后，当我完全精疲力尽时，我倒在了地上。
And everybody laughed, and the performance was over.
大家都笑了，演出结束了。
I don't know if you've stuck around after an art performance.
我不知道你看完艺术表演后是否还留下来。
But the few minutes after an art performance are some of the most depressing in the world.
但艺术表演后的几分钟是世界上最令人沮丧的几分钟。
How so?
为何如此？
Jonathan Gold You've done your wad.
乔纳森·戈尔德（Jonathan Gold）：你已经完成了你的工作。
You've done your sort of bid for art, which has either worked, or it hasn't.
你已经完成了对艺术的尝试，要么成功，要么失败。
But you're sitting there.
但你却坐在那里。
You're covered with chicken eflluvia, in my case.
就我而言，你浑身都是鸡臭气。
It stinks to high hell.
臭气熏天。
Everybody's gone.
大家都走了。
And you've got to clean up.
而且你必须清理干净。
And you're naked.
而你赤身裸体。
[LAUGHS] Jonathan Gold It's really not a pretty picture.
[笑]乔纳森·戈尔德 这确实不是一幅漂亮的图画。
So Jonathan cleaned up.
于是乔纳森就清理干净了。
And when he was done, he had a chicken.
当他完成后，他得到了一只鸡。
And he didn't feel like he could kill the chicken.
而且他觉得自己杀不了鸡。
Destiny had brought them together.
命运让他们走到了一起。
He felt like he could not turn his back.
他感觉自己无法回头。
He says it was the same as if a kitten shows up on your back door, scratching, and lonely, needy.
他说，这就像一只小猫出现在你的后门上，抓挠，孤独，贫困。
So he took the chicken home.
于是，他把鸡带回家了。
And in doing that, he stumbled across that thin, thin line that separates food items on the one hand from pets on the other, that divides the animals we eat from the animals we love.
在这样做的过程中，他偶然发现了一条细细的界线，它一方面将食品与宠物分开，另一方面将我们吃的动物与我们喜爱的动物分开。
So I get home, and I have this chicken.
所以我回到家，我有了这只鸡。
And I don't know what to do with it.
我不知道该怎么办。
So I spread out some newspaper on the top of my refrigerator, and I put the chicken up there.
于是我在冰箱顶上铺了一些报纸，然后把鸡肉放在那里。
I get a can of Green Giant-brand niblets from under the counter, and I open it.
我从柜台下拿出一罐绿巨人牌尼古丁，然后打开它。
And I put it in a little bowl for the chicken.
我把它放在一个小碗里放鸡肉。
And I give the chicken a little water.
我给鸡一点水。
And the chicken's on top of my refrigerator.
鸡肉在我的冰箱顶上。
Because you think chickens eat corn-- you had read that or something-- and that was the available corn.
因为你认为鸡吃玉米——你读过那个或其他东西——那就是可用的玉米。
That was the available corn.
那是可用的玉米。
I wish I had thought better of the niblets idea.
我希望我能更好地考虑尼比特的想法。
Why?
为什么？
Jonathan Gold Because, in fact, if you're buying three or four cans of niblets a day, which is what the chicken ate, and you're existing on almost nothing, which I was, then your niblet bill turns out to be like some two-figure percentage of your total income each week.
乔纳森·戈尔德：因为，事实上，如果你每天买三四罐零食（这就是鸡吃的东西），而你几乎什么都没有，就像我一样，那么你的零食账单就相当于你每周总收入的两位数百分比。
[LAUGHS] Jonathan Gold If you imagine living on $50 a week, but $10 of it goes for niblets.
[笑]乔纳森·戈尔德（Jonathan Gold） 如果你想象每周靠 50 美元生活，但其中 10 美元可以用来买零食。
[LAUGHS] Jonathan Gold It's just hard to justify an expense like that.
[笑] Jonathan Gold 很难证明这样的花费是合理的。
Though, at the remove 15 years, I think I can probably safely admit to you now that one of the reasons that I stuck with niblets is because I like saying the word niblet so much.
不过，15 年过去了，我想我现在可以放心地向你们承认，我坚持使用 niblet 的原因之一是因为我非常喜欢说 niblet 这个词。
[LAUGHS] Jonathan Gold And this gave me the excuse to use the words, like niblet, in general conversation several times a day.
[笑]乔纳森·戈尔德（Jonathan Gold）这给了我在日常对话中每天多次使用“niblet”等词的借口。
[LAUGHS] Jonathan Gold Usually, it just doesn't come up.
[笑]乔纳森·戈尔德 通常情况下，它不会出现。
And the chicken stayed there on top of my refrigerator for a long time-- months.
这只鸡在我的冰箱顶上呆了很长一段时间——几个月。
Six months, I think.
我想是六个月。
A two-room apartment.
一套两居室的公寓。
I had a kitchen and a bedroom.
我有一个厨房和一间卧室。
So I didn't have to look at the chicken when I was sleeping, though I did have to look at it when I was cooking.
所以我睡觉时不必看鸡，但做饭时我必须看它。
Did you ever cook chicken?
你曾经煮过鸡肉吗？
Jonathan Gold Of course, I cooked chicken.
乔纳森·戈尔德 当然，我煮了鸡肉。
No, I felt no particular loyalty to this chicken.
不，我对这只鸡没有特别的忠诚度。
I don't know if you've ever had chickens, but it's not like-- you don't pet chickens.
我不知道你是否养过鸡，但这并不像你不养鸡。
Chickens don't really like you to pet them, and you don't hold them.
鸡不太喜欢你抚摸它们，而你也不会抱它们。
There's really no love that you feel for a chicken in your life, I don't think.
我不认为你的生活中真的没有对鸡有任何爱。
I kept the chicken because I couldn't bear to do anything else.
我保留了这只鸡，因为我无法忍受做其他事情。
And it's not like I could have carried it out onto Pico Boulevard and said, be free, little chicken.
我不可能把它带到皮科大道上并说，自由吧，小鸡。
Be free.
是自由的。
I never named the chicken.
我从来没有给鸡起过名字。
When I referred to the chicken in public, I always called it "the hen."
当我在公共场合提到鸡时，我总是称它为“母鸡”。
How did you not name it?
你怎么不给它起名字呢？
It was a creature in your house.
它是你家里的一个生物。
The chicken always seemed temporary.
鸡似乎总是暂时的。
It never occurred to me that I might have the chicken as long as six months.
我从来没有想过我可以拥有这只鸡长达六个月。
The chicken always seemed like something that I would have for just a couple days.
鸡肉似乎总是我只吃几天的东西。
And then what did you think was going to happen?
然后你认为会发生什么？
I guess I thought-- A, I thought about the chicken expiring.
我想我以为—— A，我以为鸡肉会过期。
B, I have to admit that there was a possibility that someday, I would actually cook the chicken.
B，我不得不承认，有可能有一天，我真的会煮鸡肉。
I went through a lot of chicken recipes, hundreds and hundreds of chicken recipes.
我浏览了很多鸡肉食谱，成百上千的鸡肉食谱。
But--
但是——
Thinking, maybe this will be the recipe for my niblet-fed chicken?
我在想，也许这就是我的尼丁喂鸡的食谱？
Exactly.
确切地。
Ira Glass Possibly-- I have to say it-- the most delicious chicken that you could ever eat because of those niblets.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）可能——我不得不说——因为这些小块，你可能吃过最美味的鸡肉。
You can't buy niblet-fed chicken, for love or money, I don't think.
我不认为，无论出于爱还是金钱，你都买不到喂食的鸡。
I'm not sure that a recipe existed that would have lived up to the fact of the chicken, this animal who you have come to know on fairly intimate terms, and who you have raised, and who you have put a certain amount of emotion into.
我不确定是否有一个食谱能够符合鸡的事实，这种动物是你已经相当亲密地认识的，你养育了它，你对它投入了一定的情感。
A chicken, if I might say, who has seen you naked.
如果我可以说，一只见过你裸体的鸡。
The fact is, we need food to be just food.
事实上，我们需要食物只是食物。
And as soon as it becomes a living thing, especially if we're city people-- we're not used to the conversion of living things into our food-- it's hard to handle without thinking it has to be bigger than food, without wanting to make it ritualized or something bigger than food.
一旦它成为一种生物，特别是如果我们是城市人——我们不习惯将生物转化为我们的食物——就很难处理而不认为它必须比食物更大，不想让它仪式化或比食物更大。
Exactly.
确切地。
Could I tell you a short-- a small story?
我可以给你讲一个简短的小故事吗？
Yeah, of course.
是的，当然。
Jonathan Gold A few weeks ago, I was in this Korean restaurant in Koreatown in Los Angeles.
乔纳森·戈尔德 (Jonathan Gold) 几周前，我在洛杉矶韩国城的一家韩国餐厅。
It was this place called The Living Fish Center that I'd always wanted to go, because the name of it was so splendid, Living Fish Center.
我一直想去的就是这个叫活鱼中心的地方，因为它的名字实在是太好听了，活鱼中心。
I imagined some sort of vast vivarium where Flipper was jumping through hoops and stuff.
我想象了某种巨大的动物饲养场，Flipper 在那里跳过圈子之类的东西。
And I go in there.
我就进去了。
And of course, it's just like a crummy Korean restaurant.
当然，它就像一家糟糕的韩国餐厅。
It's not that clean.
不是那么干净。
And I don't know-- there are tanks and stuff, but I didn't know what to order.
我不知道——有坦克之类的东西，但我不知道该点什么。
So I order a fish soup, because it looks like they have a small fish soup specialty on the menu.
所以我点了一份鱼汤，因为看起来他们的菜单上有一个小鱼汤特色菜。
And it comes, and it's just really strong-smelling, not that great.
它来了，只是气味很浓，不是那么好。
And I try squid fried with bean sauce and onions, which wasn't that happening.
我尝试用豆瓣酱和洋葱炒鱿鱼，但事实并非如此。
And I'm about to give up, and pay the check, and go home with a vast table filled with uneaten stuff.
我正要放弃，付了账，然后带着一张大桌子回家，桌上摆满了未吃的东西。
And it suddenly occurs to me what the specialty of the restaurant is.
我突然想到这家餐厅的特色是什么。
And I wave the waitress over, and I tell her that I'd like a prawn.
我挥手让女服务员过来，告诉她我想要一只虾。
And she is puzzled.
她很困惑。
She didn't expect me to ask for a prawn.
她没想到我会要虾。
But I repeat my request, and she shrugs, and goes, and tells the sushi chef.
但我重复了我的要求，她耸耸肩，走开了，告诉了寿司厨师。
And he goes to one side of the restaurant.
他走到餐厅的一侧。
He climbs on this chair, this ordinary folding chair, and he reaches into this long tank that's running just below the ceiling.
他爬上这张椅子，这张普通的折叠椅，然后把手伸进了这个位于天花板下方的长水箱。
And he wiggles his fingers in the water.
他在水中扭动手指。
When he wiggles the fingers, the prawns just become enraged and they start nipping at his fingers, and they start attacking him.
当他摆动手指时，虾就会变得愤怒，开始咬他的手指，然后开始攻击他。
And he picks out a couple of the liveliest ones and brings them back to his counter, and-- without washing his hands, mind you-- just makes a few motions over it.
他挑选了几个最活泼的东西，把它们带回柜台，然后——请注意，他没有洗手——只是在上面做了几个动作。
And a couple seconds later, the waitress comes over with the prawns on this huge mound of ice.
几秒钟后，女服务员端着巨大冰堆上的虾走了过来。
Now, what he'd done is he'd taken off the exoskeleton.
现在，他所做的就是脱掉外骨骼。
He'd essentially-- the head was intact.
他基本上——头部完好无损。
And that little part of the tail that is always on prawns is still there.
虾尾上的那一小部分仍然存在。
But the middle part is naked, like a grub.
但中间部分是赤裸的，像蛴螬一样。
And I picked up the prawn with my chopsticks.
我用筷子夹起了虾。
And it was not dead, this prawn.
这只虾并没有死。
It was extremely alive.
它非常有活力。
And it was wiggling its legs, and it was wiggling its antennas.
它正在摆动它的腿，它正在摆动它的天线。
And its eyes were swiveling madly on its eye stalks.
而它的眼睛则在眼柄上疯狂转动。
And it was looking back at me, seeing me as actually the predator, the creature that was going to eat it.
它回头看着我，把我视为实际上的掠食者，即将吃掉它的生物。
And that was a really freakish moment, because as much stuff as I eat, and as low as I eat on the food chain, and as many prawns as I have dispatched in my life, I have never before killed a living being with my teeth.
那真是一个奇怪的时刻，因为我吃的东西有多少，食物链上的食物有多少低，我一生中吃过多少虾，我以前从未用牙齿杀死过一个活人。
And the prawn knew what I was going to do, and he did not like it.
大虾知道我要做什么，但他不喜欢这样做。
And I wasn't quite sure what to do.
我不太确定该怎么做。
But if I put it down, the prawn would have died anyway.
但如果我放下它，虾无论如何都会死掉。
It's not going to live without its shell, and somebody else would have eaten it, blah, blah, blah.
没有壳它就无法生存，别人就会吃掉它，等等，等等。
So I bit into it.
于是我就咬了一口。
I bit its body off with my teeth.
我用牙齿咬掉了它的身体。
And the prawn just relaxed in this way that was really eerie.
而虾就这样放松下来，真是令人毛骨悚然。
And the taste of the prawn, the taste of the meat of it was extraordinary.
而且虾的味道，它的肉的味道是非凡的。
It was sweet.
很甜蜜。
It was like there was life coursing through it.
仿佛有生命在其中流淌。
It was the most alive thing I've ever eaten, obviously literally.
显然，这是我吃过的最有活力的东西。
But again, it was freaky.
但再一次，这太奇怪了。
It was getting too close to the actual nature of consumption, which is killing a living creature with your teeth.
它太接近消费的实际本质，即用牙齿杀死生物。
When you bit into the prawn, did you actually bite off its head, its living head, and have its head and its eyes in your mouth?
当你咬虾的时候，你真的咬掉了它的头，它的活头，把它的头和眼睛含在你的嘴里吗？
No, I bit off its body, and I held the head in my hands.
不，我咬掉了它的身体，我把头捧在手里。
So you held the head in one hand and the tail in the other, and you bit the center?
所以你一手拿着头，另一只手拿着尾巴，然后咬中间？
Right.
正确的。
And I thought that I'd killed it.
我以为我已经杀了它。
But in fact, when I put it down, it still had so much life in it that it grabbed a piece of salmon sashimi and wouldn't let go of it.
但事实上，当我把它放下的时候，它还有那么多的生命力，它抓起一块三文鱼生鱼片就不肯放手。
And I don't think I ever want to do that again.
我想我再也不想这样做了。
Did you feel like there was something about the experience that made it more-- this word is a little cornier than I intend, but it's the only word that I can think of-- that made it more sacred, that took it out of the mundaneness of the way that we eat, which, for most of us, is eating without actually tasting, and experiencing, and thinking about what we're eating, and what on the Earth it is that we're killing to survive?
你是否觉得这种经历有某种东西让它变得更加——这个词比我想的有点老套，但这是我能想到的唯一词——让它变得更加神圣，让它脱离了我们饮食方式的世俗，对我们大多数人来说，我们吃东西时没有真正品尝、体验和思考我们正在吃什么，以及我们为了生存而杀戮的地球上到底是什么？
Do you think in some way that it's more acceptable to eat an animal if you are more awake to the fact that it is an animal and what's happened to it?
您是否认为，如果您更加清醒地认识到动物是动物以及它发生了什么，那么吃动物会更容易被接受吗？
Or do you think it really doesn't matter?
还是你认为这真的不重要？
I think it matters a great deal.
我认为这很重要。
One of the greatest metaphors in Western civilization is that of Christ, who gave his life so that others might live.
西方文明中最伟大的隐喻之一是基督，他献出了自己的生命，以便他人能够生存。
And I don't want to be sacrilegious, and I don't want to belittle that myth in any way.
我不想亵渎神明，也不想以任何方式贬低这个神话。
But a pig is giving its life so that we might eat.
但一头猪正在献出自己的生命，以便我们可以吃东西。
A chicken is giving its life so that we might eat.
一只鸡献出自己的生命，以便我们可以吃东西。
And I think the least that we can do is to think about that chicken, to think about that calf that we're eating.
我认为我们至少能做的就是想想那只鸡，想想我们正在吃的那头小牛。
Not necessarily to be sad for it, but to celebrate it, to be aware of the being that it was, that it wasn't just this bit of bioengineered protein that somehow managed to find its way onto our plates.
不一定要为此感到悲伤，而是要庆祝它，要意识到它的存在，不仅仅是这一点生物工程蛋白质以某种方式设法找到了进入我们盘子的方式。
Jonathan Gold.
乔纳森·戈尔德.
If you're curious about his writing, there's collection of his columns called Counter Intelligence.
如果您对他的作品感到好奇，可以阅读他的专栏文章《反情报》。
Act Three, "Lunchtime with the King of Ketchup." So we end our show today with the story of a man who has a very simple mission in life, to give a little special treatment to a group of people whose contribution to society is often overlooked, the men and women of the food service industry, who, when they meet this guy, tend to give him a little special treatment in return.
第三幕，“与番茄酱之王的午餐时间”。因此，我们今天以一个男人的故事结束我们的节目，他的人生使命非常简单，就是给一群对社会的贡献经常被忽视的人，即食品服务行业的男男女女，给予一点特殊的待遇，当他们遇到这个人时，往往会给予他一点特殊的待遇作为回报。
This story, as you'll be able to tell when you hear it, was first broadcast long before the pandemic.
当你听到这个故事时，你就会知道，这个故事早在大流行之前就已首次播出。
Jonathan Goldstein-- whose name I know is very similar to the guy in Act Two, but that means nothing-- tells the tale.
乔纳森·戈尔茨坦——我知道他的名字与第二幕中的那个人非常相似，但这没有任何意义——讲述了这个故事。
Howard Chackowicz and I have been friends since we're kids.
霍华德·查科维奇和我从小就是朋友。
And so I can say with great authority that almost every day for the past 10 years, Howard Chackowicz has either dined out or ordered in at least one of his meals.
因此，我可以很有权威地说，在过去 10 年里，霍华德·查科维奇几乎每天都在外面吃饭，或者至少点了一顿饭。
Sometimes, when Howard isn't sure what he's in the mood for, he'll lift an empty hand up to his mouth and pretend that he's eating.
有时，当霍华德不确定自己想吃什么时，他会举起一只空手放在嘴边，假装自己正在吃东西。
He stares straight ahead, trying to figure out if he likes the taste of the imaginary food he's shoving into his mouth.
他直视前方，试图弄清楚自己是否喜欢他塞进嘴里的想象中的食物的味道。
Sometimes, his hand is holding a hamburger.
有时，他的手上还拿着一个汉堡。
Sometimes, a fork wrapped in spaghetti.
有时，叉子里裹着意大利面条。
And other times, he is double-fisting either end of an invisible pork rib.
有时，他会用双拳握住一根看不见的排骨的两端。
Howard's always loved restaurants.
霍华德一直很喜欢餐馆。
He was raised in a Jewish Eastern-European household, where the very idea of a restaurant was a ridiculous piece of decadence, something for Cossacks and cocaine addicts who enjoyed flushing their money down the toilet.
他在一个东欧犹太家庭长大，在那里，开餐馆的想法本身就是一种荒谬的颓废，对于那些喜欢把钱冲进马桶的哥萨克和可卡因成瘾者来说是这样的。
Restaurants had a transgressive allure.
餐馆有一种越轨的吸引力。
And as soon as Howard was old enough, he started sneaking away to them after school or sometimes on weekends while the whole family was still asleep.
霍华德一长大，他就开始在放学后或有时在周末全家人都还在睡觉时偷偷溜到他们身边。
In fact, Howard was the very first person I've ever dined out with alone, without any family.
事实上，霍华德是我第一个单独出去吃饭的人，没有任何家人。
We were 12 years old, and we ate at Atomics Pizzeria, a place just down the street from us.
那年我们 12 岁，我们在 Atomics Pizzeria 吃饭，那家店就在我们的街对面。
It was owned by a crotchety old Greek man named Costa, who served ridiculously large portions of food.
它的主人是一位名叫科斯塔的脾气暴躁的希腊老人，他提供的食物份量大得离谱。
We'd get a plate of fries the size of a dead Shetland pony.
我们会得到一盘像死去的设得兰小马那么大的薯条。
But right alongside of it, Costa would place one measly packet of ketchup.
但科斯塔会在旁边放一小包番茄酱。
When we asked for more, he looked at us like we had just asked for more blood from his mother's still beating heart.
当我们要求更多时，他看着我们，就像我们刚刚向他母亲仍在跳动的心脏索要更多的血液一样。
Whereas I learned to ration, eating 400 to 500 French fries with a bottle-cap-sized dollop, Howard learned how to talk to Costa, how to win him over, how to make him see that giving us more ketchup was just the right thing to do.
我学会了配给，用瓶盖大小的一块吃 400 到 500 份炸薯条，霍华德学会了如何与科斯塔交谈，如何赢得他的支持，如何让他明白给我们更多的番茄酱是正确的做法。
Along the way, Howard learned how to say in Greek, thank you, kind sir, bless you for the ketchup, as well as the excellent [SPEAKING GREEK] ketchup sauce-- here's many years to your ketchup.
一路上，霍华德学会了如何用希腊语说，谢谢你，善良的先生，祝福你的番茄酱，以及出色的[说希腊语]番茄酱——你的番茄酱已经很多年了。
Ever since way back then, Howard has had a very special rapport with the men and women of the food service industry.
从那时起，霍华德就与食品服务行业的男男女女建立了非常特殊的关系。
And he has worked very hard over the years to cultivate this relationship.
多年来，他为培养这种关系付出了很大的努力。
This is my neighborhood here.
这是我这里的邻居。
I've been to every single restaurant in this neighborhood several times, so I feel like I can call in on every restaurant.
这附近的每一家餐馆我都去过好几次了，所以我觉得我可以拜访每一家餐馆。
A couple of weeks ago, Howard took me on a walking tour of the best places to eat in his neighborhood.
几周前，霍华德带我步行参观了他附近最好的餐厅。
I've walked into bakeries with Howard where the young girls and old men alike who work there have dropped their doughnut tongs to cry out with joy, Howard!
我和霍华德一起走进面包店，在那里工作的年轻女孩和老人都放下甜甜圈钳，高兴地喊道，霍华德！
I've watched him get moved to the front of the line outside restaurants in Chinatown.
我见过他在唐人街的餐馆外排到队伍的前面。
When he's relating to a waiter or a deliveryman, all that Howard sees is one person giving another person food.
当霍华德与服务员或送货员打交道时，他看到的只是一个人给另一个人送食物。
He talks to them as though they are friends-- brothers, even.
他与他们交谈，就好像他们是朋友，甚至是兄弟。
His servers are able to sense his purity of vision, and they bestow on him, in every exchange, some little bit of special treatment.
他的侍者能够感受到他目光的纯净，在每一次的交流中，都会给予他一些特殊的待遇。
Well, let me just show you a ghost here.
好吧，让我给你看一下这里的鬼魂。
On the corner there is a place called-- I'm not sure what that is.
在拐角处有一个地方叫——我不知道那是什么。
That used to be called Le Defi, which is The Challenge.
这曾经被称为 Le Defi，即挑战。
And that was a really great place.
那真是一个很棒的地方。
And then they closed and they moved right across the street.
然后他们关门了，他们就搬到了街对面。
And they had $1.99 spaghetti meal.
他们吃了 1.99 美元的意大利面。
I would go there every day, and I brought a lot of friends.
我每天都会去那里，而且还带了很多朋友。
But I got so-- it got to the point where, when I came in, I was actually able to serve myself.
但我做到了——当我进来时，我实际上能够为自己服务。
That's how close we got.
我们就这样接近了。
We'd go in.
我们就进去了。
They'd greet me, and they wouldn't even get up.
他们会跟我打招呼，但他们甚至都没有起身。
I would go, and I would pour myself coffee.
我会去，然后给自己倒咖啡。
And I would actually serve other people coffee.
我实际上会为其他人提供咖啡。
I would say, more coffee, sir?
我会说，再来点咖啡吗，先生？
At first, it was a novelty.
起初，这很新鲜。
But then they got very used to it and they actually liked it.
但后来他们就非常习惯了，而且真的很喜欢它。
The other funny thing is, too, one time, they actually made me-- let me make toast and stuff there, so make some of my food.
另一件有趣的事情是，有一次，他们实际上让我——让我在那里做吐司和其他东西，所以做一些我的食物。
That's actually a true story.
这实际上是一个真实的故事。
In fact, Howard is such a beloved figure in the neighborhood that whenever our friend, Tucker, goes into get takeout from Sarah's, a local Middle Eastern restaurant, he'll tell whoever is serving him that, in fact, the food was not for him, but that he was picking it up for Howard.
事实上，霍华德在附近是一位深受爱戴的人物，每当我们的朋友塔克去当地一家中东餐厅莎拉餐厅买外卖时，他都会告诉为他服务的人，事实上，食物不是给他的，而是他为霍华德买的。
This earned him portions that were almost twice as large as what he'd normally get.
这为他赢得了几乎是平时两倍的份量。
Howard, he is the best man, his server would say, as he piled food onto his plate.
霍华德，当他把食物堆到盘子里时，服务员会说，他是最好的人。
You are so lucky to have a friend like Howard.
你很幸运有霍华德这样的朋友。
Indeed, he was.
确实，他是。
But the funny thing is is that Howard is so doted upon when he eats in restaurants that sometimes, it makes it difficult for him to just sit back and enjoy his meal.
但有趣的是，霍华德在餐厅吃饭时非常受宠，有时让他很难坐下来享受美食。
He feels he has to balance things out, and so he dotes right back.
他觉得自己必须平衡一切，所以他马上回报以宠爱。
Because of that, it could be hard to carry on a conversation with him.
因此，与他进行对话可能会很困难。
His eyes will nervously scan the restaurant for any way he could be of help to the waiting staff.
他的眼睛会紧张地扫视餐厅，寻找任何可以帮助服务员的方法。
Howard's ears can detect the muted clink of cutlery falling to the carpet from clear across the room.
霍华德的耳朵可以听到房间另一端餐具掉落到地毯上的静音叮当声。
And when he does, he'll do a kind of concerned gym-coach trot over to the mishandled piece of silverware and pluck it up off the floor.
当他这样做时，他会像体操教练一样担心地小跑到那件处理不当的银器面前，把它从地板上捡起来。
So as much as Howard loves restaurants, when he really wants to relax, he'll get home delivery.
因此，尽管霍华德很喜欢餐馆，但当他真正想放松时，他会选择送货上门。
And since it was nearing lunchtime, rather than step into one of the many restaurants we were passing, Howard ushered us back in the direction of his house to dial out for our grub.
由于已接近午餐时间，霍华德没有走进我们路过的众多餐馆之一，而是带我们回到他家的方向，去买食物。
At his place, he pulled open his top kitchen drawer, and I saw the many choices that lay before us.
在他的住处，他打开厨房最上面的抽屉，我看到摆在我们面前的许多选择。
I wouldn't say it's 400.
我不会说是400。
I'd love to count it.
我很想数一下。
Just give me an idea.
给我一个主意。
Howard Chackowicz I'd say if this handful is about 10-- 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70--
霍华德·查科维奇（Howard Chackowicz） 我会说，如果这一把大约是 10——10、20、30、40、50、60、70——
As much as restaurant owners and waiters love Howard, it's delivery men who really, really love him.
尽管餐馆老板和服务员都很喜欢霍华德，但送货员也非常非常喜欢他。
Who among us even knows our delivery man's name?
我们当中谁知道送货员的名字？
Howard knows their names and the names of their wives and children.
霍华德知道他们的名字以及他们妻子和孩子的名字。
When they come to his door, he invites them in and offers them water.
当他们来到他家门口时，他邀请他们进来并给他们提供水。
And in return, they'll actually call Howard later on to see if his meal was to his liking, that it was warm enough, that there was enough ketchup.
作为回报，他们稍后会打电话给霍华德，看看他的饭菜是否合他的胃口，是否足够温暖，是否有足够的番茄酱。
--190, 200-- this is very embarrassing-- 210, 220, 230, about 250 menus in here.
--190、200--这很尴尬-- 210、220、230、大约250个菜单在这里。
There are some doubles, for sure, or even like multiple copies, but only restaurants I order from all the time.
当然，有一些双份，甚至是多份，但仅限于我一直点的餐厅。
We decide to order from Howard's favorite restaurant, a souvlaki place called The Greek Village.
我们决定从霍华德最喜欢的餐厅——一家名为“希腊村”的烤肉店点餐。
I'm going to take a number 10, the two-gyro pizza.
我要选 10 号，即两陀螺披萨。
And I think that's it Thanks.
我想就是这样，谢谢。
Have a nice day.
祝你今天过得愉快。
Bye.
再见。
While we wait for the food, Howard waves me over and opens his kitchen cupboard to reveal physical proof of his good standing with the service industry.
当我们等待食物时，霍华德向我招手，打开他的厨房橱柜，展示他在服务行业良好信誉的实物证据。
Here we go.
开始了。
These are all bags of ketchup, salt, soy sauce.
这些都是一袋袋番茄酱、盐、酱油。
Yeah.
是的。
Jonathan Goldstein And these are big bags full of nothing but ketchup.
乔纳森·戈德斯坦 这些都是大袋子，里面除了番茄酱什么也没有。
There's some soy sauce.
有一些酱油。
Jonathan Goldstein So gone are the days where you had to wheedle out a single packet out of Costa's hands for your French fries.
乔纳森·戈德斯坦 (Jonathan Goldstein) 必须从科斯塔手中骗取一包炸薯条的日子已经一去不复返了。
It's true that I have so much now, I have so many packets here.
确实，我现在有这么多，我这里有这么多包。
But no matter how many packets I amass, it'll never catch up to what I missed as a child, ketchup.
但无论我攒了多少包，都永远赶不上我小时候错过的番茄酱。
[KNOCKING] Jonathan Goldstein Then, with vaudeville timing, our delivery arrives.
[敲门声] Jonathan Goldstein 然后，随着歌舞杂耍的时间，我们的货到了。
Hey, Shamir.
嘿，沙米尔。
Jonathan Goldstein Howard greets the delivery man like an old friend he hasn't seen in quite some time.
乔纳森·戈德斯坦·霍华德像一位许久未见的老朋友一样向送货员打招呼。
Thanks so much, man.
非常感谢，伙计。
Shamir He's your friend.
沙米尔 他是你的朋友。
He's a beautiful man.
他是一个美丽的男人。
He's such a nice man, I'm telling you.
我告诉你，他是个好人。
He's the best customer in Montreal I have.
他是我在蒙特利尔遇到的最好的顾客。
[LAUGHTER] Each time I come, he gave me apple.
[笑声] 每次我来，他都会给我苹果。
He give me a juice.
他给我一杯果汁。
He give me everything.
他给了我一切。
[LAUGHTER] Jonathan Goldstein When I order in, like most people, I figure these guys want out of my house as badly as a bird that's accidentally flown in down the chimney.
[笑声] 乔纳森·戈德斯坦 当我像大多数人一样点进来时，我想这些人就像一只不小心从烟囱飞进来的小鸟一样迫切地想要离开我的房子。
And I assist them in their passage, usually having the exact change with a tip all ready for them at the door.
我会协助他们通行，通常会在门口为他们准备好零钱和小费。
But at Howard's house, delivery men stay a long time.
但在霍华德家里，送货员却待了很长时间。
They seem to want to.
他们似乎想要这么做。
Hey, so Marvin's not working there anymore?
嘿，所以马文不再在那里工作了？
No, because I think he find somewhere else a job.
不，因为我认为他在其他地方找到了工作。
Oh, OK.
哦，好吧。
OK.
好的。
I see everything is different.
我看到一切都不同了。
Actually, I felt so bad when I called, because when I ask, I say, Shamir, you know.
事实上，当我打电话时，我感觉很糟糕，因为当我问时，我说，沙米尔，你知道。
They're like, well, we don't know who you're going to get.
他们就像，好吧，我们不知道你会找谁。
I know, but I don't want to get you in trouble.
我知道，但我不想给你带来麻烦。
After about 10 minutes of this, I just want to eat.
大约10分钟后，我只想吃饭。
I find myself eyeing the bag of souvlaki lying on the floor like a campground bear.
我发现自己像一只露营地的熊一样盯着地上的一袋烤肉串。
I realize then that I'm just not made of the same stuff as Howard, and I never will be.
然后我意识到我和霍华德不是同一类人，而且永远也不会。
When we finally sit down to eat, I can't even get Howard to admit that he's doing anything so special with guys like Shamir.
当我们最终坐下来吃饭时，我什至无法让霍华德承认他正在与像沙米尔这样的人一起做一些如此特别的事情。
We go back and forth on this.
我们在这个问题上反复讨论。
Yeah, because most people won't go to the extent that you do, which is why you have guys that work the telephone coming by your house to meet you.
是的，因为大多数人不会达到你那样的程度，这就是为什么你会有打电话的人到你家来见你。
That probably doesn't happen that often.
这种情况可能不会经常发生。
Well, I really believe I don't really do anything.
好吧，我真的相信我什么也没做。
I'm nice to them.
我对他们很好。
But just empirically, you have to see at this point that you're getting responded to differently than most people, so there must be something different, no?
但仅凭经验来看，此时你必须看到你得到的反应与大多数人不同，所以一定有不同的东西，不是吗？
If someone's going to come to my door more than a few times, and they know my face, and we're saying, how are you, I'm going to start treating that person like a human being.
如果有人多次来我家门口，并且他们认识我的脸，我们会说，你好吗，我会开始像对待人一样对待那个人。
And most people, I think, are probably rude to them.
我认为大多数人可能对他们很粗鲁。
Most people that I know give deliveryman a buck.
我认识的大多数人都给送货员一块钱。
And I think that they do a hard-- they have a harder job than a waiter or a waitress because here's a guy who takes your food, gets into a car, risks his life, goes into traffic--
我认为他们的工作比服务员更辛苦，因为有人拿走你的食物，上车，冒着生命危险，进入交通堵塞——
Howard's worked all kinds of food service jobs himself-- as a waiter, a busboy, a short-order cook.
霍华德本人从事过各种餐饮服务工作——服务员、服务员、快餐厨师。
And he says that as a result, he absolutely loathes the feeling of being served.
他说，因此，他非常讨厌被服务的感觉。
There's something that just feels embarrassing and unnatural about it.
这让人感觉很尴尬和不自然。
But it even goes further than that.
但它甚至比这更进一步。
In his interactions with the service industry, he's looking for a particular feeling, a kind of cozy moment where he can palpably sense that the waiter has forgotten that he is a waiter and that they are both simply relating as human beings.
在与服务行业的互动中，他正在寻找一种特殊的感觉，一种舒适的时刻，他可以明显感觉到服务员已经忘记了他是一名服务员，而他们只是作为人而相处。
And then once he knows this, once he knows they're both getting along and everyone's happy, he can move on.
一旦他知道了这一点，一旦他知道他们相处融洽并且每个人都很高兴，他就可以继续前进。
He isn't looking for anything else from them.
他并没有从他们身上寻找任何其他东西。
His motives are pure that way.
他的动机就很纯粹。
But these kinds of special moments don't come without strings attached.
但这些特殊时刻并不是没有附加条件的。
And sometimes, Howard gets into trouble.
有时，霍华德也会遇到麻烦。
Earlier in the day, during our walking tour, there was one place we didn't stop into, a little convenience store around the corner.
当天早些时候，在我们徒步旅行期间，有一个地方我们没有停下来，那就是拐角处的一家小便利店。
Howard became uncharacteristically somber and quiet as we walked by the storefront window.
当我们走过店面橱窗时，霍华德变得一反常态地忧郁而安静。
The owners, a Greek woman in her 60s named Voula and her older sister, used to be pretty friendly with him.
店主是一位 60 多岁的希腊妇女，名叫沃拉 (Voula) 和她的姐姐，过去对他非常友好。
Sometimes, Voula wouldn't charge him the tax on his chocolate bar.
有时，沃拉不会向他的巧克力棒征税。
And on occasion, she'd have him sit behind the counter with her on a plastic milk crate.
有时，她会让他和她一起坐在柜台后面的塑料牛奶箱上。
It wasn't much, but it was still more than what the other customers got.
虽然不多，但仍然比其他顾客得到的要多。
And it made Howard feel special.
这让霍华德感到很特别。
But then, at a certain point, things started to get more intense.
但后来，到了某个时刻，事情开始变得更加激烈。
There had been several holdups there, by knifepoint, gunpoint.
那里曾发生过几次持刀、枪口抢劫。
And I felt really bad for them.
我真的为他们感到难过。
I'd see them really shook up.
我看到他们真的很震惊。
And they're kind of tough ladies, but they're alone.
她们都是坚强的女士，但她们很孤独。
And I told them, I said, if you ever need anything, if there's any trouble or something, I'm just around the corner.
我告诉他们，我说，如果你们需要任何东西，如果有任何麻烦或什么事情，我就在拐角处。
You give me a call.
你给我打电话。
And I really meant it like in case of emergency or just that there'd be someone they can call, some kind of community, some type of effort at community.
我的真正意思是在紧急情况下或者只是他们可以打电话给某个人，某种社区，某种类型的社区努力。
But she started-- she would call every day.
但她开始每天都会打电话。
She would call him for all kinds of reasons, to have him come by and fix things or to run errands for her.
她会出于各种原因给他打电话，让他过来修理东西或者帮她跑腿。
And he would try his best to be accommodating.
他也会尽力表现得包容。
She'd even call him just to chat.
她甚至会给他打电话只是为了聊天。
Even though all of this was more than Howard could shoulder, he was reluctant to put an end to it.
尽管这一切超出了霍华德的承受能力，但他却不愿意结束。
It was only after the calls got later into the night, at 1:00 and 2:00 in the morning, that Howard's friends started insisting he tell her that enough was enough.
直到深夜凌晨 1:00 和 2:00 接到电话后，霍华德的朋友才开始坚持让他告诉她，够了。
And against his better judgment, he did so.
他违背了自己更好的判断，还是这么做了。
Howard wonders if it was right to give her his number in the first place.
霍华德想知道一开始把他的电话号码给她是否正确。
I made that offer assuming that it would be understood that there's a cutoff point.
我提出这个提议是假设大家可以理解，存在一个截止点。
But to another person, that offer is a real, genuine offer.
但对于另一个人来说，这个提议是真实的、真诚的提议。
If I need help, I'm going to call you, and she did.
如果我需要帮助，我会打电话给你，她也这么做了。
And maybe she's the one that's right.
也许她是正确的人。
So it's ironic that being nice to someone actually had the adverse effect, the opposite effect, and it ended up being a disaster.
因此，具有讽刺意味的是，对某人友善实际上产生了不利的影响，相反的效果，最终酿成了一场灾难。
And now, two people are not even friendly with each other.
而现在，两个人的关系已经不友好了。
There have been other disasters for Howard, disasters where he was the one who went a little too far.
对于霍华德来说，还有其他的灾难，在这些灾难中，他做得有点太过分了。
Like there's the time he became so consumed with helping this neighborhood Chinese restaurant that, without being asked, he took it upon himself to draw up pamphlets for the place.
就像有一次，他非常热衷于帮助附近的一家中餐馆，以至于在没有人要求的情况下，他自己为这个地方起草了小册子。
The owner accepted Howard's flyers, but never circulated them.
店主接受了霍华德的传单，但从未散发过。
Later, the owner picked a screaming fight with Howard over an order, and Howard never went back.
后来，店主为了一份订单与霍华德大吵了一架，霍华德再也没有回去。
And then there was the time he brought in beautiful framed photos of Lebanon to his favorite Lebanese restaurant so they could be reminded of home.
有一次，他把黎巴嫩美丽的镶框照片带到他最喜欢的黎巴嫩餐厅，这样他们就可以想起家乡。
But the photos were never hung up, nor were they ever referred to again.
但这些照片从未被挂起来，也没有被再次提及。
But for Howard, those things don't matter, and I know that he'd probably even do them all again.
但对于霍华德来说，这些事情并不重要，而且我知道他甚至可能会再做一次。
There are so many other moments that make his good intentions feel repaid in full.
还有很多其他时刻让他的善意得到了充分的回报。
Some of his favorites are when deliverymen he knows pass him by in their cars as he's walking down the street.
他最喜欢的一些场景是，当他走在街上时，他认识的送货员开着车从他身边经过。
It shocks him out of his reverie when they honk their horns in a quick, affectionate burst.
当他们快速而充满感情地鸣响喇叭时，他从沉思中惊醒。
For a brief moment, it feels like a reassuring slap on the back.
有那么一瞬间，感觉就像是背上被拍了一巴掌，让人安心。
Howard thinks to himself that they're the best, and it fills him with so much gratitude that if he had a pear or a peach in his coat pocket, he would wave them over and give it to them.
霍华德心想，他们是最好的，他心里充满了感激之情，如果他的外套口袋里有梨子或桃子，他就会把它们挥过去送给他们。
Jonathan Goldstein is the host of the podcast Heavyweight, which just finished its fifth season.
乔纳森·戈尔茨坦是播客《重量级》的主持人，该播客刚刚结束了第五季。
I heartily recommend it.
我衷心推荐它。
Great stories.
很棒的故事。
You can hear it on Spotify or wherever else you get your podcasts.
您可以在 Spotify 或任何其他可以获取播客的地方听到它。
Well, our program was produced today by Noor Gill, with mixing help from Stowe Nelson, Beth Blake, and Matt Tierney.
嗯，我们的节目今天由 Noor Gill 制作，并得到了 Stowe Nelson、Beth Blake 和 Matt Tierney 的混音帮助。
Special thanks today to the restaurant Aurora in Brooklyn, who let us use the kitchen for our calamari taste test in Act One.
今天特别感谢布鲁克林的 Aurora 餐厅，他们让我们在第一幕中使用厨房进行鱿鱼口味测试。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org, where you can hear over 700 episodes of our program for absolutely free.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org，您可以在其中完全免费收听我们节目的 700 多集。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
You know, after a hard day at the radio station, as he heads home, he always turns and declares to all of us on his way out the door--
你知道，在广播电台辛苦了一天之后，当他回家时，他总是在出门时转身向我们所有人宣布——
Man, I'm gonna eat me some bung tonight.
伙计，今晚我要吃点东西。
That's just the way it is.
事情就是这样。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。