724: Personal Recount - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #724 | November 13, 2020 724: Personal Recount Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 724 集 | 2020 年 11 月 13 日 724：个人重述 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass OK, so here's a weird thing to happen at your temp job.
序言：序言 Ira Glass 好的，你的临时工作中发生了一件奇怪的事情。
A chunk of the country decides that you, personally, are trying to steal the election from the president of the United States.
这个国家的一部分人认为你个人正试图从美国总统手中窃取选举权。
This actually happened to a guy.
这确实发生在一个男人身上。
He's in this video that's been circulating online, retweeted by Eric Trump and Donald Trump Jr., viewed over 5 million times, of him.
他出现在这段在网上流传的视频中，埃里克·特朗普和小唐纳德·特朗普转发了他的推文，观看次数超过 500 万次。
He's this worker in the Georgia vote counting operation.
他是佐治亚州计票部门的工作人员。
In the video, you see him at a desk in short sleeves, people doing their jobs all around him.
在视频中，你可以看到他穿着短袖坐在办公桌前，周围的人都在做自己的工作。
He picks up one piece of paper after another, puts them in a stack.
他拿起一张又一张的纸，把它们叠成一叠。
And then, something happens.
然后，发生了一些事情。
He flinches and he slams down a piece of paper kind of angrily-- or that's how it looks in the video.
他退缩了，愤怒地摔在了一张纸上——或者这就是视频中的样子。
The sound on the video is somebody narrating who's not identified.
视频中的声音是某人在叙述，但身份不明。
This dude has a fit about something, flips off a ballot, and then crumples it up.
这家伙因为某件事大发雷霆，把一张选票翻了出来，然后把它揉皱了。
That's more or less true.
这或多或少是正确的。
The guy gives a finger to something and then does crumple up some piece of paper and then drops it to the side.
那家伙用手指指着什么东西，然后揉皱了一张纸，然后把它扔到一边。
The narrator and so many commenters online for the video assume this is a Trump ballot.
该视频的旁白和许多在线评论者认为这是特朗普的选票。
And this fits the mold of all the things the president has been saying about the election being stolen.
这符合总统一直以来所说的有关选举被窃取的所有说法。
If that's not voter fraud, I don't know what is.
如果这不是选民欺诈，我不知道什么才是。
Fortunately for us at our program, this incident happened in Fulton County in Atlanta, where WABE reporter Johnny Kauffman has been embedded in the elections operation for months.
对于我们节目中的我们来说幸运的是，这起事件发生在亚特兰大富尔顿县，WABE 记者约翰尼·考夫曼 (Johnny Kauffman) 几个月来一直参与那里的选举活动。
He was able to track down the guy in the video.
他能够找到视频中的那个人。
His name is Lawrence Sloane.
他的名字叫劳伦斯·斯隆。
He's one of the dozens of people who were hired during the busy time around elections to help out.
他是在选举期间受雇提供帮助的数十名人员之一。
Has he done it before?
他以前做过吗？
Johnny Kauffman No, this is his first time working in the election.
约翰尼·考夫曼 不，这是他第一次参与选举。
Yeah, I mean, as soon as they called me about the opportunity, I was like, oh, sweet.
是的，我的意思是，当他们打电话给我询问这个机会时，我就想，哦，太好了。
I get paid.
我得到报酬。
I get to help democracy.
我要帮助民主。
That's the most American thing.
这是最美国化的事情。
That's going to be awesome, you know?
那会很棒，你知道吗？
Lawrence explained to me that the machine he's sitting at in the video, it's an envelope opener.
劳伦斯向我解释说，视频中他坐在的机器是一个信封开刀器。
Or the election workers, they call it a cutter.
或者选举工作人员，他们称之为切割者。
So Fulton County had about 150,000 mail-in ballots come in, so they were running nonstop.
富尔顿县收到了大约 150,000 张邮寄选票，因此选票不间断地进行。
And Lawrence is one of the fastest people on the machines.
劳伦斯是机器上跑得最快的人之一。
He can tell, just by the sound, whether they're working correctly or not.
他只需通过声音就能判断它们是否正常工作。
I know when there's going to be an error.
我知道什么时候会出现错误。
You hear [CLICKING].
您会听到[咔哒声]。
That's the letter landing in the dropping.
那是落在坠落处的信。
[CLICKING] That's where it cuts along the side.
[点击]这就是它沿着侧面切割的地方。
[CLICKING] If you don't hear [CLICKING], it didn't work.
[点击]如果您没有听到[点击]，则说明没有成功。
You didn't hear [CLICKING] sink, you got no cut on both sides, all right?
你没有听到[咔哒]声，两边都没有割伤，好吗？
Lawrence told me that people put all kinds of stuff in the envelopes, like weird stuff that they're not supposed to put in there.
劳伦斯告诉我，人们把各种各样的东西放进信封里，比如他们不应该放进去的奇怪的东西。
Like what?
比如什么？
Johnny Kauffman Oh, like mean notes about Trump.
约翰尼·考夫曼哦，就像关于特朗普的刻薄评论。
Someone sent in a check.
有人送来一张支票。
Oh, is this like a mistake?
哦，这像是一个错误吗？
They put it in the wrong envelope?
他们把它放进了错误的信封里？
Yeah, just a mistake.
是的，只是一个错误。
Lawrence Sloane Poems.
劳伦斯·斯隆的诗。
People write poems, and they put them in there.
人们写诗，然后把它们放在那里。
Prayers.
祈祷。
What kind of poems?
什么样的诗？
Lawrence Sloane Just, like, I don't-- bro, just not good ones.
劳伦斯·斯隆：只是，我不——兄弟，只是不好。
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
He was very happy and excited to explain what actually happened in the video.
他非常高兴和兴奋地解释视频中实际发生的事情。
OK, so the machine-- yeah, you see them working the workflow.
好的，所以机器——是的，你看到它们在工作流程中工作。
That's me separating.
那是我的分离。
Boom, separate, take that one up.
繁荣，分开，把那个拿起来。
Boom, separate.
轰隆隆，分开。
Now it's running pretty good there.
现在那里运行得很好。
Oh, bam!
哦，嘭！
It tries to eat my hand.
它试图吃掉我的手。
Yeah, so what's happening is the machine didn't cut the envelope quite right.
是的，所以发生的情况是机器没有正确切割信封。
And so Lawrence reached in his hand to save the ballot.
于是劳伦斯伸手去救选票。
When it doesn't cut properly, it starts tearing them-- it starts tearing the ballots out.
当它不能正确切割时，它就会开始撕扯选票——它会开始撕扯选票。
So it starts tearing the envelope.
所以它开始撕开信封。
And then if it stays in there, it will tear the ballot apart.
如果它留在那儿，它就会撕碎选票。
And we can't have it eat your ballot.
我们不能让它吃掉你的选票。
That's why you see me throw those things.
这就是为什么你看到我扔那些东西。
So that's what the guy saw in the video.
这就是视频中那个人看到的情况。
When Lawrence flinched, it wasn't him being upset about a Trump vote.
当劳伦斯退缩时，并不是他对特朗普的投票感到不安。
It was the machine tweaked him when he was trying to reach into it and save a ballot.
当他试图伸手保存选票时，机器对他进行了调整。
So then he flipped off the machine.
然后他关掉了机器。
He's not flipping off the ballot.
他不会放弃选票。
He's flipping off the machine--
他正在关掉机器——
Oh.
哦。
Johnny Kauffman --because it had been giving him problems for hours.
约翰尼·考夫曼——因为这几个小时以来一直给他带来问题。
Yeah, I flip off the machine.
是的，我关掉机器。
I'm like, you used to be cool, man.
我想，你以前很酷，伙计。
We used to do good work.
我们过去工作做得很好。
Now I'm tired, too.
现在我也累了。
Everybody in here is tired, but you need to quit with this shit, all right?
这里的每个人都很累，但你需要停止这种狗屎，好吗？
You're the only person in here eating fingers.
你是这里唯一一个吃手指的人。
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
So then the last thing in the video is Lawrence throwing aside this piece of paper.
所以视频中的最后一件事是劳伦斯扔掉了这张纸。
And Lawrence told me that that is not a ballot.
劳伦斯告诉我，这不是选票。
It's one of these things that people put in the envelopes that is not supposed to be in the envelope.
这是人们放入信封的其中一种不应该放在信封中的东西。
Oh.
哦。
Johnny Kauffman In this case, it was the instructions actually for how to fill out the ballot.
约翰尼·考夫曼（Johnny Kauffman）在这种情况下，实际上是如何填写选票的说明。
When Lawrence was talking about this, he couldn't help himself from giving a little public service announcement.
劳伦斯说起这件事的时候，忍不住发表了一点公益宣言。
Stop putting the instructions in.
停止输入说明。
I know it's too late now.
我知道现在已经太晚了。
For future reference, don't include the instructions in your voting thing.
为了供将来参考，请勿将说明包含在您的投票内容中。
It just makes more work for us.
它只会给我们带来更多的工作。
And It's weird.
这很奇怪。
So just stop it.
所以就停下来吧。
OK, so the video was shot on Wednesday, the day after the election.
好的，视频是在星期三，即选举后的第二天拍摄的。
It took off online the next morning.
第二天早上它就在网上起飞了。
That's when Lawrence learned that lots of his fellow Americans thought that he was rigging the election.
就在那时，劳伦斯得知许多美国同胞认为他在操纵选举。
Again, here's Johnny Kaufman.
约翰尼·考夫曼再次报道。
Someone sent it to him on Instagram.
有人在 Instagram 上将其发送给他。
And he looked at it, and he's like, oh, this is going to be a problem.
他看着它，然后他想，哦，这将是一个问题。
In the comments, people were saying, like, he should be identified and arrested, that he was mentally ill and homeless, like nasty, racist stuff.
在评论中，人们说，他应该被认出并逮捕，他患有精神病并且无家可归，就像令人讨厌的种族主义者一样。
Lawrence, we should say, is Black.
我们应该说，劳伦斯是黑人。
And was he at work when he learns this?
当他得知此事时，他正在工作吗？
Yeah, he's in the middle of a 22-hour shift.
是的，他正在 22 小时轮班。
So then he takes a break.
然后他休息一下。
He goes outside to get away from the TV cameras and reporters in the room.
他走到外面，远离房间里的电视摄像机和记者。
And at that point, he sees Trump supporters protesting.
就在那时，他看到特朗普的支持者在抗议。
I didn't know when the protest was about.
我不知道抗议是什么时候发生的。
Even if it's not about me, I'm standing outside, and they know what I look like.
即使这与我无关，我站在外面，他们也知道我的样子。
You know what I'm saying?
你知道我在说什么吗？
And if any of them had seen this, every second that this goes by, more people are going to see this.
如果他们中的任何人看到了这一点，那么每过一秒，就会有更多的人看到这一点。
Me just being here is automatically just not the best.
我只是在这里就自然而然地不是最好的。
Scared.
害怕的。
It wasn't like a-- I'm shook.
这不像是——我很震惊。
It's like, oh.
就好像，哦。
Because fear is a real emotion.
因为恐惧是一种真实的情感。
You're like, oh.
你就像，哦。
And it isn't always like, heartbeat, boom boom boom.
而且并不总是像心跳、砰砰砰那样。
It's like, I am in danger.
就像，我处于危险之中。
I should probably get the hell on.
我也许应该继续下去。
So at the end of day, he just sneaks away, past the protest?
所以到最后，他就溜走了，绕过了抗议活动？
Yeah, he actually ran away.
是的，他确实逃跑了。
He said he ran to get away from the protesters.
他说他跑步是为了躲避抗议者。
And then he hit out with some friends.
然后他就和一些朋友吵架了。
He cut his beard off and dyed his hair so people wouldn't recognize him.
他剪掉了胡子，染了头发，这样人们就认不出他了。
Oh, wow.
哦，哇。
Johnny Kauffman That wasn't too big of a deal in the end because he said he really likes his new look.
约翰尼·考夫曼（Johnny Kauffman）最终这没什么大不了的，因为他说他真的很喜欢他的新造型。
But he didn't feel safe going home for three nights.
但连续三个晚上回家他都感到不安全。
There are so many of these stories of voter fraud on the internet right now.
现在互联网上有很多此类选民欺诈的故事。
I talked to this woman who founded a company that tracks disinformation on the internet, the Alethea Group.
我采访了一位女士，她创办了一家追踪互联网虚假信息的公司 Alethea Group。
The woman's name is Lisa Kaplan.
这个女人的名字叫丽莎·卡普兰。
And she told me that Election Day was way calmer than they expected for disinformation.
她告诉我，选举日比他们预期的虚假信息要平静得多。
A limited number of false stories, most of them about Pennsylvania.
虚假故事数量有限，其中大部分是关于宾夕法尼亚州的。
But starting the next day, things sped up.
但从第二天开始，事情就加速了。
And they really exploded once the president started spreading these stories in earnest.
一旦总统开始认真传播这些故事，他们就真的爆炸了。
Disinformation is continuing to grow exponentially.
虚假信息继续呈指数级增长。
And the way it is now, it's much more diffuse.
现在的情况是更加分散。
So it's not just on 8Kun or 4chan anymore.
所以它不再只是在 8Kun 或 4chan 上。
These are narratives that are being talked about on Facebook, on Twitter, on Instagram.
Facebook、Twitter 和 Instagram 上都在谈论这些故事。
How often are the stories true of voter fraud?
选民欺诈的故事有多少是真实的？
We have not found any.
我们还没有找到任何。
None of the narratives that we are tracking are backed up by facts.
我们追踪的所有叙述都没有事实支持。
Lots of people now believe these stories of voter fraud.
现在很多人都相信这些选民欺诈的故事。
A survey by Politico in the Morning Consult found that 70% of Republicans think this year's election was not free and fair.
Politico 在 Morning Consult 中的一项调查发现，70% 的共和党人认为今年的选举不自由、不公平。
And over half of Republicans think there was widespread voter fraud with mail-in ballots.
超过一半的共和党人认为邮寄选票存在广泛的选民欺诈行为。
Driving through Aberdeen, Maryland the weekend after the election, I saw a few dozen Trump supporters gathering to do an impromptu car caravan supporting the president.
大选后的周末，我开车穿过马里兰州阿伯丁，看到几十名特朗普的支持者聚集在一起，组成临时汽车车队支持总统。
Just the day before that, news organizations had called the election for Joe Biden.
就在前一天，新闻机构宣布乔·拜登将当选。
When I talked to this chatty, friendly woman named Kim Muhlenfeld and her friend and this kid, they, like most of this crowd, didn't buy it.
当我与这位健谈、友好的女士 Kim Muhlenfeld 和她的朋友以及这个孩子交谈时，他们和这群人中的大多数人一样，并不买账。
It was obviously the vote was stolen.
很明显，选票被盗了。
And we can't let the media say who our president is going be.
我们不能让媒体说我们的总统将是谁。
We just can't.
我们就是做不到。
I mean--
我的意思是——
Where'd you hear-- Kim Muhlenfeld --they talk about a free and fair election at this point, not even so much Trump.
你从哪里听到的——金·穆伦菲尔德——他们现在谈论自由和公平的选举，甚至没有谈论特朗普。
But I have a video of CNN before the ribbon at the bottom catches up--
但在底部的丝带跟上之前我有一个 CNN 的视频——
Kim pointed me to a bunch of videos she says proves there's fraud.
金给我看了一堆视频，她说这些视频证明存在欺诈行为。
From her perspective, there are so many examples to choose from-- votes turning up unexplained in the middle of the night.
从她的角度来看，有很多例子可供选择——投票在半夜莫名其妙地出现。
4:00 AM, no votes for Trump at all, just 132,000 Biden votes, that's it, at 4:00 AM.
凌晨 4:00，根本没有投票给特朗普，只有 132,000 张拜登选票，仅此而已，凌晨 4:00。
Kim's slightly misremembering those numbers, but what she's talking about is a story that the Alethea Group says is one of the most circulated bits of disinformation about this election, widely shared on right-wing bulletin boards and websites and one of the many stories that the president has retweeted.
Kim 稍微记错了这些数字，但她所说的是 Alethea Group 所说的一个故事，这是关于这次选举传播最广的虚假信息之一，在右翼公告栏和网站上广泛分享，也是总统转发的众多故事之一。
It was on Fox News.
这是福克斯新闻报道的。
It was a tweet with side by side maps of Michigan and vote counts, showing that early in the morning after Election Day, Michigan updated its election totals, added 138,000 votes to the vote count, and all the new votes, all of them, went to Joe Biden, none to Donald Trump, which does sound very suspicious.
这是一条推文，并排显示了密歇根州地图和计票结果，显示选举日后一早，密歇根州更新了选举总数，计票数增加了 138,000 张选票，所有新选票全部投给了乔·拜登，没有一张投给了唐纳德·特朗普，这听起来确实很可疑。
But it's not what it seems.
但事实并非如此。
The person who made this happen was a Republican, the Republican official responsible for running elections in a Republican county in Michigan-- this woman.
促成这一切的人是一位共和党人，负责在密歇根州的一个共和党县进行选举的共和党官员——这位女士。
Caroline Wilson, Shiawasee County clerk.
卡罗琳·威尔逊 (Caroline Wilson)，夏瓦西县书记员。
Feel free not to answer this question because I think it's a private thing, but did you vote for the president?
请不要回答这个问题，因为我认为这是私人问题，但你投票给总统了吗？
Yes.
是的。
I stand by the values that the Republican Party holds.
我支持共和党的价值观。
And that's what I support.
这就是我所支持的。
Here's what happened with those 138,000 votes, according to Caroline.
卡罗琳表示，这 138,000 张选票的情况如下。
Morning after the election, 4:45, she and the elections clerk, Abby Bowen, were in her office, just the two of them, sending in election results to the state, using the computer that's set up with all the security measures on it.
选举结束后的早上 4 点 45 分，她和选举书记员艾比·鲍文 (Abby Bowen) 在她的办公室里，只有他们两个人，使用设置有所有安全措施的计算机向州政府发送选举结果。
With each race--
每场比赛——
Abby reads the number to me.
艾比把号码读给我听。
I type the number, repeating the number.
我输入数字，并重复该数字。
But Caroline says, in filling out this form online, before she would actually type anything into a box, the number that was sitting there in the box as a place holder was zero.
但卡罗琳说，在网上填写这张表格时，在她实际在框中输入任何内容之前，框中作为占位符的数字为零。
And usually she'll put the cursor in the box, and her new number would replace the zero.
通常她会将光标放在框中，她的新号码将替换零。
But as she was typing in Biden's number, the cursor landed in the box, but it didn't nuke the zero that was there.
但当她输入拜登的电话号码时，光标落在了方框中，但并没有击中那里的零。
I must have had the cursor to the left of the zero.
我一定是把光标移到了零的左边。
I didn't even see it.
我什至都没看到。
So I typed in 15, 371.
所以我输入了 15, 371。
That is 15,371 votes, Joe Biden's total for the county.
这是乔·拜登在该县的总票数，即 15,371 票。
But because the zero was there at the end of the number, it wasn't 15,000 and change.
但因为数字末尾有零，所以它不是 15,000 并且发生了变化。
The number was 150,000 and change.
这个数字是150,000并且有变化。
We moved down to Donald Trump, his number.
我们转到唐纳德·特朗普，他的电话号码。
I would read the number back.
我会读回这个数字。
I would go to the next person.
我会去找下一个人。
We hit Submit, and we pretty much go home.
我们点击“提交”，然后我们就差不多回家了。
It's been a long couple of days.
已经过去好几天了。
It does not take long for somebody from the Bureau of Elections to notice this error.
没过多久，选举局的人就注意到了这个错误。
Caroline and Abby both get calls in 20 minutes.
20 分钟后，卡罗琳和艾比都接到电话。
Caroline's already home.
卡罗琳已经到家了。
She lives seven minutes from her office.
她住的地方距离办公室七分钟路程。
They get rid of 153,000 that Caroline typed in, replace it with 15,300.
他们去掉了 Caroline 输入的 153,000，代之以 15,300。
The difference between those two numbers is the mysterious 138,000 votes, which-- this part is interesting-- didn't actually appear for Biden in the vote count.
这两个数字之间的差异是神秘的 138,000 票，这部分很有趣，实际上拜登并没有出现在计票中。
They disappeared for Biden to make it look like they mysteriously appeared.
他们在拜登面前消失了，让他们看起来像是神秘出现的。
Our best guess is somebody must have intentionally switched the before and after pictures of the map with the vote totals.
我们最好的猜测是，一定有人故意将地图前后的图片与投票总数互换。
But it was corrected very quickly.
但很快就得到了纠正。
So we just moved on.
所以我们继续前进。
And lo and behold, our phone is blowing up and emails are blowing up.
你瞧，我们的电话和电子邮件都被炸毁了。
And even my family, they didn't know it was me, but they were joking about all these votes in Shiawasee County.
甚至我的家人，他们也不知道那是我，但他们拿夏瓦西县的所有这些选票开玩笑。
Yeah, I might know a thing or two about that, but it was clearly a typo.
是的，我可能对此略知一二，但这显然是一个错字。
We don't even have that many people in our county.
我们县城也没有那么多人。
So after I talked to Caroline, I found that woman that I met at the rally, Kim, who had been so convinced that 130-some thousand votes had appeared in middle of the night for Biden.
因此，在我与卡罗琳交谈后，我找到了我在集会上遇到的那位女士金，她非常确信半夜有 130 多张选票投给了拜登。
I was curious to find out if she would believe Caroline's story.
我很好奇她是否会相信卡罗琳的故事。
And I played her clips from my recording of Caroline, explaining point by point how it happened.
我播放了卡罗琳录音中的片段，逐条解释了事情是如何发生的。
And then they fixed it and made it the right numbers.
然后他们修复了它并使其成为正确的数字。
Right, but this has happened all over the country.
是的，但是全国各地都发生过这种情况。
And the video I sent you yesterday, you can see all the ways that this Dominion software, as well as others, can be-- what happens is, in that--
我昨天发给你的视频，你可以看到这个 Dominion 软件以及其他软件可以实现的所有方式 - 发生的事情是 -
Dominion is another one of those stories tweeted by the president and circulating on the internet.
《统治》是总统在推特上发布并在互联网上流传的故事之一。
It's one of a bunch of stories about rigged software giving votes to Joe Biden.
这是一系列有关被操纵的软件给乔·拜登投票的故事之一。
It has been dis-proven.
它已被证实。
Google Dominion if you're curious.
如果你好奇的话，谷歌统治。
But do you understand in this case, it's not Dominion software or the other software.
但你明白吗，在这种情况下，它不是 Dominion 软件或其他软件。
It's just her typing in the number wrong.
只是她把号码输错了。
Right, sure.
对，当然。
Yeah, I mean, that's plausible.
是的，我的意思是，这是合理的。
But she said she must have, so she doesn't know for sure, for one.
但她说她一定有，所以她不确定。
But if it was just an isolated case, that would be one thing.
但如果这只是一个孤立的案例，那就是一回事了。
But it's just too much.
但这实在是太多了。
And maybe she really didn't make an error.
或许她真的没有犯错。
Maybe they just changed it, and they caught the change like they caught the 6,000 in another county.
也许他们只是改变了它，然后他们就像在另一个县抓住了 6,000 人一样抓住了变化。
So you don't really know what's happening.
所以你并不真正知道发生了什么。
And it's just--
这只是——
And I just want to be sure.
我只是想确定一下。
Kim Muhlenfeld It's just terrible.
Kim Muhlenfeld 这太糟糕了。
I just want to be sure I'm clear.
我只是想确保我说清楚了。
Kim, you're saying that she thinks that she did it as a typographical error, but you think maybe this--
金，你是说她认为这是一个印刷错误，但你认为也许是这样——
I think when they send off the results, that's when the percentages are changed.
我认为当他们发出结果时，百分比就会发生变化。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
But you're saying it might not even be true that she made a typographical error.
但你说她犯了一个印刷错误甚至可能不是真的。
Right, I mean, there's just so many anomalies.
是的，我的意思是，有很多异常现象。
And there's no way that Joe Biden got more votes than Donald Trump.
乔·拜登不可能比唐纳德·特朗普获得更多选票。
No way possible.
没办法。
Kim said a few times that Caroline seems like a credible and honest person, but it's the sheer volume of other examples that's convincing to her that they really could be foul play.
金曾多次表示，卡罗琳似乎是一个可信而诚实的人，但正是其他大量的例子才让她相信这些例子确实可能是谋杀。
And even if this one example in this one Michigan county was caught, it doesn't change anything for her because she feels like she's seen so many other examples.
即使密歇根州这个县的这个例子被抓到，这对她来说也不会改变任何事情，因为她觉得她已经看到了很多其他的例子。
I asked Caroline Wilson, the Shiawasee County clerk, what she thinks of all the Republicans who don't believe the truth of what happened in her county.
我问夏瓦西县书记员卡罗琳·威尔逊（Caroline Wilson），她对所有不相信她县发生的事情真相的共和党人有何看法。
Shame on them.
为他们感到羞耻。
Shame on them.
为他们感到羞耻。
That attitude jeopardizes everything that we are supposed to stand for.
这种态度危及我们应该代表的一切。
I take an oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States, this state, and my county.
我宣誓维护美国宪法、本州和我的县。
And my job responsibilities are not partisan.
我的工作职责没有党派之分。
Fact is, there's no convincing people-- usually.
事实是，通常没有令人信服的人。
Something I read this year that really shaped how I've seen this whole election is Ezra Klein's book Why We're Polarized.
我今年读到的一本书真正影响了我对整个选举的看法，那就是埃兹拉·克莱因 (Ezra Klein) 的书《为什么我们会两极分化》。
He has this big section where he runs through all these studies that demonstrate how, when we encounter facts that don't fit into our worldview, that contradict what we believe, the normal thing, the thing that we all do most of the time is that we disregard those facts or explain them away.
他有一个很大的部分，他贯穿了所有这些研究，这些研究表明，当我们遇到不符合我们的世界观的事实时，这些事实与我们所相信的相矛盾，正常的事情，我们大多数时候所做的事情就是我们忽视这些事实或解释它们。
Today on our program, in this moment when the president is not backing down from his unproven claim that the election was stolen from him, this moment when I know that when I call the president's tweets disinformation, there are a lot of you out there like him who think that I am part of the problem and not looking at the truth, we thought it might be nice to hear a few of the rare examples of people actually changing their minds.
今天在我们的节目中，当总统没有放弃他未经证实的选举被窃取的说法时，当我知道当我称总统的推文为虚假信息时，你们中有很多人像他一样认为我是问题的一部分，而不是看到真相，我们认为听到一些人们实际上改变主意的罕见例子可能会很高兴。
It doesn't happen often, God knows.
天知道，这种事并不经常发生。
But let's enjoy a few cases where it does and look at why it does in those special cases.
但让我们来欣赏一下它的一些情况，并看看为什么在这些特殊情况下它会这样做。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, The Signs, They Are A-Changing.
第一幕，迹象，它们正在发生变化。
So Lizzie Johnson's grandpa recently surprised everybody in his life by changing his mind about something.
因此，莉齐·约翰逊的爷爷最近改变了对某件事的看法，这让他生活中的每个人都感到惊讶。
A month ago, I woke up to my cell phone pinging with text alerts.
一个月前，我醒来时听到手机短信提示音。
My family group chat was blowing up over a picture-- a huge Biden-Harris sign staked in my grandpa's field.
我的家庭群聊因为一张照片而炸开了锅——一个巨大的拜登-哈里斯标志立在我爷爷的田地里。
He's 91 and a lifelong Republican.
他今年 91 岁了，一生都是共和党人。
And until this sign, no one in my family knew he'd switched allegiances.
直到这个迹象出现之前，我家里没有人知道他已经改变了忠诚。
It was shocking.
太令人震惊了。
The man doesn't change his mind about anything.
这个男人对任何事情都不会改变主意。
But this year, he'd sent in his mail-in ballot for Biden.
但今年，他邮寄了拜登的选票。
And for the first time in his life, he'd also voted a straight Democratic ticket.
他生平第一次直接投了民主党票。
What had made him change his mind after so long?
是什么让他在这么久之后改变了主意？
So I think we need to give grandpa just a couple more minutes.
所以我想我们需要再给爷爷几分钟。
That's my mom Rose.
那是我妈妈罗丝。
I'd sent over my list of questions to him to look at before we talked because he's hard of hearing.
在我们交谈之前，我已将问题清单发送给他查看，因为他有听力障碍。
He wrote out all the answers, and I think he's back there re-copying them right now.
他写下了所有的答案，我想他现在正在那里重新抄写它们。
I'm not ready.
我还没准备好。
Lizzie Johnson My grandpa's named Louis Rosman.
莉齐·约翰逊 我的祖父名叫路易斯·罗斯曼。
He's pretty blustery and known for his quick temper.
他脾气暴躁，以脾气暴躁而闻名。
He lives by himself on his 500-acre corn and soybean farm in Harlan, Iowa.
他独自一人住在爱荷华州哈兰 500 英亩的玉米和大豆农场里。
It's the same farm he grew up on.
这是他长大的同一个农场。
The area is conservative and rural.
该地区是保守的乡村地区。
How are you doing?
你好吗？
Louis Rosman Not too good.
路易斯·罗斯曼 不太好。
[LAUGHS] I can't work under pressure.
[笑]我不能在压力下工作。
[LAUGHS] So I heard that you had cut down all the overgrown grass, all the weeds, just so that everyone could see the sign better from the highway, which seems like a little risky.
[笑]所以我听说你把所有杂草丛生的杂草都砍掉了，只是为了让每个人都能从高速公路上更好地看到标志，这似乎有点冒险。
Do your neighbors on either side, do they have Trump signs on their fields?
你两边的邻居在他们的田地里有特朗普的标志吗？
Oh, yes, big signs.
哦，是的，大标志。
I've probably got a neighbor on each side of me that would tear it down, but I closed the gate up so they can't get in to do it.
我可能两边都有一个邻居想把它拆掉，但我把门关上了，这样他们就无法进来这样做。
He's really proud of this sign.
他对这个标志感到非常自豪。
He got it by calling up the leaders of the Democratic Party in his county.
他是通过给所在县的民主党领导人打电话得到的。
It turned out, one of them is a distant relative.
原来，其中一个是远房亲戚。
I told them they could not find a better display for their sign anywhere than down here on this highway.
我告诉他们，他们找不到比这条高速公路更好的地方来展示他们的标志了。
It's a busy highway.
这是一条繁忙的高速公路。
Remember you asked them to bring you the biggest sign?
还记得你让他们给你带来最大的标志吗？
Yeah, I wanted a big one.
是的，我想要一个大的。
And they only had a single one.
而且他们只有一个。
I wanted a second one so we could put it back to back, you know, so you could see it both ways on the highway.
我想要第二个，这样我们就可以把它背靠背放，你知道，这样你就可以在高速公路上双向看到它。
Highway 44 is a busy two-lane route that runs between Portsmouth and Harlan in western Iowa.
44 号高速公路是一条繁忙的双车道路线，连接爱荷华州西部的朴茨茅斯和哈兰。
There'd been another Biden-Harris sign in town, but a 92-year-old man defaced it.
镇上还有另一个拜登-哈里斯的标牌，但一名 92 岁的男子把它弄脏了。
He spray painted it with a big red X.
他在上面喷了一个红色的大X。
And then, the sign disappeared.
然后，标志就消失了。
My grandpa Louis's neighbors are mostly farmers who voted for President Trump in 2016.
我爷爷路易斯的邻居大多是2016年投票支持特朗普总统的农民。
His trade war with China ate into their profits, but then he bailed them out with subsidies.
他与中国的贸易战蚕食了他们的利润，但随后他通过补贴拯救了他们。
He's still popular with farmers.
他仍然受到农民的欢迎。
Back in 2016, my grandfather voted for him, too.
早在 2016 年，我的祖父也投票给了他。
Because everybody wanted a change, and I just fell into place with them.
因为每个人都想要改变，而我只是适应了他们。
I wanted something different.
我想要一些不同的东西。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I have always voted Republican for the president, and that's probably the biggest reason.
我一直投票给共和党总统，这可能是最大的原因。
I didn't know any better.
我不知道还有什么更好的。
My grandpa was a Republican by upbringing.
我的祖父从小就是一名共和党人。
His parents were Republican.
他的父母都是共和党人。
Like most people, he absorbed his political beliefs by osmosis.
和大多数人一样，他通过潜移默化吸收了自己的政治信仰。
Everyone belongs to the same Catholic church in town, St. Michael's.
每个人都属于镇上同一个天主教堂，圣迈克尔教堂。
It's right next to where that other sign was defaced.
它就在另一个标志被污损的地方旁边。
Church was the only place my grandpa used to talk with his neighbors before the pandemic hit.
在大流行爆发之前，教堂是我爷爷与邻居交谈的唯一地方。
Now his social life is a lot quieter.
现在他的社交生活安静了很多。
The farms are spread so far apart that he doesn't really run into people.
农场距离很远，他并没有真正遇到人。
The only other person he sees is a friend named Paul, who rents land from my grandpa.
他唯一见到的人是一位名叫保罗的朋友，他从我爷爷那里租了土地。
He's a Trump supporter.
他是特朗普的支持者。
No. He knows it's down here.
不，他知道它就在这里。
But Paul naturally would not say anything.
但保罗自然不会说什么。
Because I can terminate his lease next year.
因为我明年就可以终止他的租约。
Oh.
哦。
[LAUGHS] But do you guys talk about politics?
[笑]但是你们谈论政治吗？
We don't talk about politics.
我们不谈论政治。
We talk about engines that don't start and stuff like that.
我们谈论发动机无法启动之类的问题。
But how did you find out that Paul was going to vote for Trump?
但你是怎么知道保罗要投票给特朗普的呢？
He just mentioned it.
他刚刚提到过。
He was working at the lawn mower at the time, leaning over it.
当时他正在割草机上工作，俯身在割草机上。
And he just said something about Sleepy Joe.
他刚刚说了一些关于瞌睡乔的事情。
He wouldn't vote for Sleepy Joe.
他不会投票给瞌睡乔。
He wanted to say something back, but told me he didn't think it was worth ruining his relationship with Paul over Trump.
他想说些什么，但告诉我，他认为不值得因为特朗普而破坏他与保罗的关系。
There is a stereotypical thing that happens in the Midwest, an aversion to direct conflict.
中西部地区存在一种典型的现象，那就是厌恶直接冲突。
People are so completely loud and aggressive with their signs.
人们的手势非常大声且具有攻击性。
For example, down the road from my grandpa's house, there's a huge "Trump, fuck your feelings" sign posted in a neighbor's yard.
例如，在我爷爷家的路上，邻居的院子里贴着一个巨大的“特朗普，操你的感情”的牌子。
But to each other's faces, everyone keeps it polite.
但当着彼此的面，大家都保持着礼貌。
They let their signs do the talking.
他们让他们的标志来说话。
I have a theory about why he's going through this very late in life political awakening.
我有一个理论可以解释为什么他在晚年会经历这种政治觉醒。
He's been able to vote in 18 presidential elections.
他曾在 18 次总统选举中投票。
But this is the first time he's actually been engaged.
但这是他第一次真正订婚。
Part of it is that as he's gotten older, he hasn't been able to do as much around the farm.
部分原因是随着年龄的增长，他在农场周围的事情越来越少。
He still rides around on his four-wheeler and fixes fences, but he's also started spending more time in front of the TV.
他仍然骑着四轮车四处走动并修理栅栏，但他也开始花更多的时间在电视机前。
He watches The View in the morning and Stephen Colbert at night.
他早上看《The View》，晚上看《史蒂芬·科尔伯特》。
He also just finished reading a couple books on the Trumps.
他还刚刚读完几本有关特朗普家族的书。
Two of my grandpa's daughters, my mom and my Aunt Margaret, have probably influenced him the most.
我祖父的两个女儿，我的妈妈和我的玛格丽特阿姨，可能对他影响最大。
They're at his house a lot, checking on him, playing cards, and dropping off meals.
他们经常去他家，看望他，打牌，送饭。
Over the years, their politics have changed.
多年来，他们的政治已经发生了变化。
They went from voting for both Bushes to Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton.
他们从投票给布什总统转而投票给巴拉克·奥巴马和希拉里·克林顿。
And this year-- Biden.
今年——拜登。
How long did it take you to figure out that Trump was not that change that you wanted?
你花了多长时间才发现特朗普并不是你想要的改变？
Well, this virus has really convinced me because he totally disregarded it and still does.
嗯，这种病毒确实让我信服了，因为他完全忽视了它，而且现在仍然如此。
He acts as if it don't exist.
他表现得好像它不存在一样。
And all these people are dying, and he still thinks that's all you have to do, is just ignore it.
所有这些人都快要死了，而他仍然认为你要做的就是忽略它。
And then he said, it'll be over with by Easter.
然后他说，到复活节就结束了。
It'll be over with by July.
到七月份就结束了。
And it's always a bunch of damn lies.
而且总是一堆该死的谎言。
It scares the hell out of me.
它把我吓坏了。
I ain't ready to die yet.
我还没准备好去死
And then the deal the way they were handling those children down at the border, herding them around like a prisoner of war camp.
然后他们在边境处理这些孩子的方式，就像把他们赶到战俘营一样。
500-some are separated from their parents, and some of them are six months old.
500 人中有一些与父母分离，其中一些只有六个月大。
It sounds like thinking about those kids without their parents has really stuck with you.
听起来你对那些没有父母的孩子的思念真的让你难以忘怀。
Well, why wouldn't it?
嗯，为什么不呢？
With anybody, anybody with feeling.
与任何人，任何有感情的人。
Trump has no feeling.
特朗普没有任何感觉。
Absolutely none.
绝对没有。
That's why I like Joe Biden, because he has a soft voice and he doesn't tell lies.
这就是我喜欢乔·拜登的原因，因为他声音柔和，而且不说谎。
I wanted someone who cares for someone or something besides himself.
我想要一个除了自己之外还关心某人或某事的人。
Would you have thought I was crazy if, in 2016, I told you, hey, you would vote for a Democrat in 2020, straight down the ticket?
如果在 2016 年，我告诉你，嘿，你会在 2020 年直接投票给民主党，你会认为我疯了吗？
If you would have told me what was going on now back then, I wouldn't have believed this could happen.
如果你当时告诉我现在发生了什么，我不会相信会发生这种事。
Has been so vocal about supporting Biden hurt any of your relationships with family?
如此直言不讳地支持拜登是否伤害了你与家人的关系？
Because I know that not everyone in our family is Democratic.
因为我知道我们家里并不是每个人都是民主党人。
Oh, Kathy and Kirk in town.
哦，凯西和柯克在城里。
Lizzie Johnson Kathy's my aunt, and Kirk's her husband.
莉齐·约翰逊·凯西是我的姨妈，柯克是她的丈夫。
They're Republican.
他们是共和党人。
She was bringing my groceries out so that I didn't have to get out and expose myself.
她正在把我的杂货带出去，这样我就不用出去暴露自己了。
And somewhere along the line, I asked her point blank.
在这个过程中，我直截了当地问她。
I said, are you wearing a mask?
我说你戴口罩了吗？
And she said no. They're no good.
她说不。他们不好。
They don't do you any good.
他们对你没有任何好处。
You can get sick wearing them anyway.
无论如何，穿着它们你可能会生病。
And I said, well, I will get my groceries myself after this.
我说，好吧，这之后我自己去买杂货。
And she said, we can still bring the groceries out in the refrigerator.
她说，我们仍然可以把冰箱里的杂货拿出来。
And I said, you won't come on the place-- on the farm without a mask.
我说，如果不戴口罩，你就不会来到农场。
And she hung up, and I haven't heard from her since.
然后她就挂了电话，从那以后我就再也没有收到她的消息。
My grandpa was ecstatic when he heard the news that Biden won.
当我的爷爷听到拜登获胜的消息时欣喜若狂。
Some of his neighbors have already taken down their Trump signs.
他的一些邻居已经取下了特朗普的标语。
But he has no plans to take his Biden-Harris sign down anytime soon.
但他不打算很快取消拜登-哈里斯的标志。
He wants to make sure all of his neighbors know he was on the winning side.
他想确保所有邻居都知道他站在胜利的一边。
He can see it from his living room window.
他可以从客厅的窗户看到它。
And he checks on it often to make sure nobody has vandalized it or stolen it.
他经常检查它，以确保没有人破坏或偷窃它。
He told me is going to decorate it with flowers and horseshoes and then keep it up, blaring there in his field until a new crop goes in next spring.
他告诉我要用鲜花和马蹄铁装饰它，然后继续下去，在他的田里大声喧哗，直到明年春天新的作物长出来。
Lizzie Johnson, she's a reporter for The San Francisco Chronicle.
莉齐·约翰逊，她是《旧金山纪事报》的记者。
Act Two, Puppy Love Triangle.
第二幕，早恋三角恋。
So next, we have a story about somebody very young trying to make up her mind about something about as far from politics as we could think of-- a crush on a boy.
接下来，我们有一个故事，讲述的是一个非常年轻的人试图对一些我们能想到的远离政治的事情下定决心——迷恋一个男孩。
The way she went about it, though, surprised her mom a lot.
然而，她的做法却让她妈妈大吃一惊。
The story actually starts back when school was in session last year, pre-virus, in-person school-- remember that?
这个故事实际上要从去年学校开学时开始，病毒爆发前的面对面学校——还记得吗？
The little girl was in the second grade.
小女孩当时上二年级。
Her mom, Emily Flake, explains.
她的妈妈艾米丽·弗莱克解释道。
To understand why it was so surprising for me to find my seven-year-old in a state of romantic equivocation, I have to explain a bit of her relationship history first.
为了理解为什么我对我七岁的女儿处于一种模棱两可的浪漫状态感到如此惊讶，我必须首先解释一下她的恋爱史。
Augustine-- we call her Tug for short-- fell in love for the first time at the age of four.
奥古斯丁——我们简称她塔格——四岁时第一次坠入爱河。
She fell hard for a boy her age I'll call R to protect his identity.
她深深地爱上了一个与她同龄的男孩，为了保护他的身份，我将其称为“R”。
R was absurdly tall for his age.
R对于他的年龄来说高得离谱。
He had long, flaxen hair and looked like a tiny Norse god.
他有一头亚麻色的长发，看上去就像一位北欧小神。
Tug used to chase him around the basement of the church where we had a playgroup, announcing, "R!
塔格常常在教堂的地下室里追赶他，我们在那里有一个游戏小组，并宣布：“R！
You're going to marry me, R!
你要嫁给我，R！
Right now!"
就现在！”
Now my husband and I were never the type to use words like "boyfriend" and "girlfriend" about little kids.
现在，我和我丈夫从来都不是那种用“男朋友”和“女朋友”这样的词来形容小孩子的人。
The framing of children's friendships as romantic that I remember from when I was a child in the '80s feels creepy now.
当我还是个 80 年代的孩子时，我记得孩子们的友谊是浪漫的，现在感觉令人毛骨悚然。
But we try to respect that those feelings are very real to her.
但我们尽力尊重她的这些感受是非常真实的。
Tug was all R all the time, all through pre-K and kindergarten.
从学前班到幼儿园，塔格一直都是 R。
Her pre-K teacher remarked often that she had to remind them to play with other kids, instead of remaining in their tight, little two-person club.
她的学前班老师经常说，她必须提醒他们与其他孩子一起玩，而不是留在狭小的两人俱乐部里。
But then, in first grade, completely out of the blue, her ardor shifted.
但后来，在一年级时，她的热情完全出乎意料地发生了转变。
All of a sudden, she was talking about some new boy.
突然，她谈到了一个新来的男孩。
This boy, who we'll call B, lived catty-corner from us.
这个男孩，我们称之为 B，住在离我们很近的地方。
He was a sweet-faced first-grader who looked a bit like a Cabbage Patch doll.
他是一个长相甜美的一年级学生，看起来有点像卷心菜娃娃。
I was shocked by this fickle change of heart so I asked her what happened.
我对这种善变的态度感到震惊，所以我问她发生了什么事。
She said, evenly, "I am no longer interested in R."
她平静地说：“我对 R 不再感兴趣了。”
I'd given Tug a journal to write her feelings in, and B showed up in there.
我给了塔格一本日记，让她写下她的感受，B 出现在里面。
In fact, she produced several reams of B content.
事实上，她制作了大量的 B 内容。
She wrote a poem about him that included lines like, "I love your hair, as brown as a bear." She stayed full steam ahead on the B train until this past Valentine's Day, when something happens that surprised and confused us both.
她写了一首关于他的诗，其中包括这样的诗句：“我爱你的头发，像熊一样棕色。”她在 B 列车上全速前进，直到去年情人节，当时发生了一件让我们俩都感到惊讶和困惑的事情。
For the first time in her life, my daughter didn't know where her heart wanted to go.
我女儿有生以来第一次不知道自己的心该往哪里去。
The chaos factor was this.
混乱的因素是这样的。
This year, a boy liked her first.
今年，一个男孩先喜欢上了她。
This boy, who we'll call L, made his feelings toward Tug known with a note.
这个男孩，我们称之为 L，通过一张纸条表达了他对塔格的感情。
We talked about it sitting on the floor in her room one afternoon.
一天下午，我们坐在她房间的地板上谈论了这件事。
So it was on Valentine's Day.
所以那天是情人节。
And actually, he left a note at my table, but it was made out of a Post-It.
事实上，他在我的桌子上留了一张纸条，但它是用便利贴写成的。
So the first time, I thought it was just garbage.
所以第一次，我以为这只是垃圾。
But then I opened it.
但后来我打开了它。
And in it was "A plus L," and I think with a heart.
其中有“A plus L”，我用心思考。
And then, I was like, "Does that mean that you wanted to be my Valentine?" And he's like, "Maybe." I'm like, "Sure." And then, he runs up to his friend, and he's like, "She said yes!
然后，我想，“这是否意味着你想成为我的情人？”他说：“也许吧。”我说：“当然。”然后，他跑向他的朋友，他说：“她答应了！
She said yes!"
她说是啊！”
Being the pursued instead of the pursuer seemed to throw Tug for a loop.
成为被追赶者而不是追赶者似乎让塔格陷入了困境。
When she talked about it, she seemed fretful and confused and a little embarrassed.
说起这件事时，她显得焦躁、困惑，还有些尴尬。
She told me at bedtime several nights in a row that she didn't know what to do.
她连续几个晚上在睡前告诉我她不知道该怎么办。
Before L gave you the note, what did you think of him?
在L给你纸条之前，你对他有什么看法？
I mostly thought of him as like a friend that I've had since pre-K.
我主要认为他就像我从学前班以来就认识的朋友。
But I didn't think of him that much.
但我并没有那么想他。
So you knew him, but you didn't think of him liking you before?
所以你认识他，但你之前没有想到他喜欢你？
When he wrote that note, I started paying more attention to him, kind of, and started to-- thought about him more.
当他写下那张纸条时，我开始更多地关注他，并且开始更多地思考他。
So if L had never given you a Valentine note, do you think you would have gotten a crush on him or liked him?
那么如果L从来没有给过你一封情人信，你认为你会迷恋他或者喜欢他吗？
Probably not because the note kind of made everything just happen.
可能不是因为这张纸条让一切都发生了。
She hid her face in the blankets a lot as we talked.
我们说话时，她经常把脸埋在毯子里。
She said now that he brought it up, she guessed she could like him?
她说现在他提起了，她猜她会喜欢他？
As the days went on, when I checked on her journal, I saw she'd gone full scorched earth on her past.
日子一天天过去，当我查看她的日记时，我发现她的过去已经彻底焦土化了。
She'd gone back to the pages about B in her diary and edited them mercilessly.
她又回到日记里关于B的那几页，毫不留情地编辑起来。
Next to "I love B so much," she wrote "Not anymore."
在“我非常爱B”旁边，她写道“不再爱了”。
Next to every heart she'd drawn, she wrote the word "no." It was like she was trying to edit her emotions by editing the evidence of them.
在她画的每颗心旁边，她写下了“不”这个词。就好像她试图通过编辑情绪的证据来编辑自己的情绪。
I tried to explain that she didn't have to erase the past or all the things she wrote and drew to make room for this person in her emotional space.
我试图解释说，她不必抹去过去或她写下和画下的所有东西，以便在她的情感空间中为这个人腾出空间。
She disregarded my note and went right on striking through.
她无视了我的留言，直接删除了。
Can you tell me why you felt like you wanted to do that?
你能告诉我为什么你想这么做吗？
I don't really know exactly why.
我真的不知道为什么。
I just did it.
我刚刚做到了。
So did you feel like you couldn't like B anymore because L liked you?
那么你是否因为L喜欢你而觉得你不能再喜欢B了？
I don't really know.
我真的不知道。
Emily Flake And do you feel like you needed to like L back because he liked you?
Emily Flake 你是否觉得你需要因为 L 喜欢你而也喜欢他？
Again, I still don't really know.
再说一遍，我还是不太清楚。
Do I have to explain how love works?
我需要解释爱是如何运作的吗？
Of course my daughter can't explain how love works, and neither can I.
当然，我的女儿无法解释爱是如何运作的，我也不能。
I wanted to talk to her more about this to make sure that her burgeoning feelings for L and abandonment of feelings for B were coming from her own will.
我想和她多谈谈这件事，以确保她对L的感情的萌芽和对B感情的放弃是出于她自己的意愿。
But when I wanted to talk to her about her emotions, she kept deflecting to his.
但当我想和她谈论她的情绪时，她总是转向他的。
I don't really know what he felt.
我实在不知道他的感受是什么。
But I know that he probably felt excited.
但我知道他可能感到很兴奋。
Well, how did you feel?
嗯，你感觉怎么样？
Tug I don't really remember.
特格我真的不记得了。
And I felt really happy for him because he seemed like he was super excited.
我为他感到非常高兴，因为他看起来非常兴奋。
Hearing her express this sense of romantic obligation felt like somebody had copy-pasted my entire adolescence onto my second-grader.
听到她表达这种浪漫的义务感，感觉就像有人把我的整个青春期复制粘贴到了我二年级的学生身上。
I knew that feeling very, very well.
我非常非常了解那种感觉。
I was an unlovely and unlikable child.
我是一个不可爱、不讨人喜欢的孩子。
By the time I was in sixth grade, I had completely assimilated the idea that I was not allowed to turn down affection from anyone if it ever happened to come my way.
当我上六年级的时候，我已经完全接受了这样一个想法：如果任何人碰巧向我表达了爱意，我就不能拒绝。
I remembered being liked by a moody boy when I was 12 and going out on what passed for a double date with him and our respective best friends.
我记得我 12 岁时被一个喜怒无常的男孩喜欢，并与他和我们各自最好的朋友进行了一次双人约会。
We all went for ice cream at the decaying strip mall in town.
我们都去了镇上破旧的购物中心买冰淇淋。
My friend and I tried to make conversation, while the boy who liked me glowered and muttered under his breath, while the boy who liked my friend got chocolate ice cream all over his face.
我和我的朋友试图交谈，而喜欢我的男孩则怒目而视，小声嘀咕，而喜欢我朋友的男孩则满脸都是巧克力冰淇淋。
It was an awkward disaster, but it was also my first official date.
这是一场尴尬的灾难，但这也是我的第一次正式约会。
The boy's affections made me feel shame and an exciting threat of degradation.
这个男孩的感情让我感到羞耻和令人兴奋的堕落威胁。
But what was I going to do, turn him down?
但我该怎么办，拒绝他吗？
I knew I was looking down the barrel of a lifetime of making the best of things as far as dating was concerned.
我知道我正在看不起一生中在约会方面充分利用一切的机会。
I thought I had avoided constructing a landscape that would encourage those kinds of feelings to grow in my daughter.
我认为我避免建造一个会鼓励我女儿产生这种感觉的景观。
Had I somehow already infected her with this idea that she'd better find a way to accept anyone that would have her?
我是否已经以某种方式感染了她这个想法，即她最好找到一种方法来接受任何想要拥有她的人？
As Tug sorted through her feelings, she turned once more to writing, crafting a note she planned to give to L at school.
当塔格理清自己的感受时，她再次开始写作，写了一张她计划在学校送给L的便条。
So can we talk about the note that you wrote him?
那么我们可以谈谈你写给他的便条吗？
What did it say?
它说了什么？
Dear L-- [GIGGLES] I was thrilled when you asked me to be your Valentine.
亲爱的L--[咯咯笑]当你邀请我做你的情人时，我很激动。
I just want to say you are kind and-- you are so kind and sweet and nice.
我只想说你很善良，而且——你是如此善良、可爱、友善。
And you are a great person.
你是一个很棒的人。
I couldn't tell if she was genuinely seeing L through new eyes or if she was bending her emotions to fit the situation.
我无法判断她是否真的以新的眼光看待L，或者她是否在改变自己的情绪以适应情况。
But I was interested to see where she was going with this.
但我很想知道她对此有何打算。
She held onto the note for a few days, going back and forth, and decided at last to seal the deal and deliver the note to him in school.
她把这张纸条保留了几天，来来回回，最后决定达成协议，把这张纸条送到学校给他。
But she never got the chance.
但她一直没有机会。
This was last March.
这是去年三月的事。
While she dithered, the pandemic spread.
当她犹豫不决时，流行病蔓延了。
And by the time she'd made up her mind, her school closed.
当她下定决心时，学校已经关门了。
Her decision was rendered moot.
她的决定变得毫无意义。
For a few weeks, she talked about him at bedtime.
有几个星期，她在睡前谈论他。
But to a kid her age, out of sight is out of mind.
但对于她这个年纪的孩子来说，眼不见心不烦。
Now her obsession lies where she conducts most of her social life-- Roblox and other online platforms.
现在，她痴迷于她大部分社交生活的地方——Roblox 和其他在线平台。
In a world where there are fly-ride albino bats, there doesn't seem to be a lot of room for crushes.
在一个存在飞行白化蝙蝠的世界里，似乎没有太多的空间来迷恋。
Like so many other things in our lives now, her heart will have to live in limbo.
就像我们现在生活中的许多其他事情一样，她的心将不得不生活在地狱边缘。
Emily Flake, she's a writer and cartoonist for The New Yorker.
艾米丽·弗莱克（Emily Flake）是《纽约客》的作家和漫画家。
Coming up, can a macho TV talk show host on daytime TV in Argentina really, really become a feminist?
接下来，阿根廷日间电视上的男子气概电视脱口秀主持人真的能成为女权主义者吗？
That is in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program, Personal Recount.
今天的节目，个人重新计票。
In this tense and exhausted post-election moment, we thought it would be refreshing to have stories of that very rare thing, that very hopeful thing-- human beings actually changing their minds.
在选举后这个紧张而疲惫的时刻，我们认为，讲述这种非常罕见的事情、非常有希望的事情——人类实际上改变了主意——的故事将会令人耳目一新。
We've arrived at act three of our program.
我们已经进入了计划的第三幕。
Act Three, The All Too Real Housewives of Argentina.
第三幕，阿根廷太真实的家庭主妇。
So this is a story about people changing their attitude about the world in a very significant way.
这是一个关于人们以非常重大的方式改变他们对世界的态度的故事。
And they're doing it in a setting where you really don't see that kind of thing very often-- daytime television.
他们是在一个你不经常看到这种事情的环境中做这件事的——白天的电视。
Jasmine Garsd grew up in Argentina and has this story about daytime TV there.
Jasmine Garsd 在阿根廷长大，有一个关于那里日间电视的故事。
We first broadcast this story a couple years ago.
我们几年前首次播出这个故事。
I watched a lot of television when I was a kid.
我小时候看了很多电视。
My grandmother, Iaia, would pick me up at school and bring me back to her place.
我的祖母 Iaia 会去学校接我，然后带我回到她的住处。
Her apartment was dark and humid.
她的公寓又暗又潮湿。
It smelled like French bread and the exhaust from the buses on the avenue down below.
闻起来像法式面包和楼下大道上公共汽车排出的废气。
My grandfather was never around.
我的祖父从来不在身边。
Iaia would make tea, and then we would go to her bedroom and turn the TV on.
Iaia 会泡茶，然后我们去她的卧室打开电视。
And suddenly, colors, sound, and sex would pour into the world.
突然之间，色彩、声音和性涌入了世界。
It was the early afternoon.
那是下午早些时候。
It was time for the talk shows.
又到了脱口秀节目的时间了。
[SPANISH] Jasmine Garsd Argentine talk shows are extreme, even for Latin American television.
[西班牙语] Jasmine Garsd 阿根廷脱口秀节目很极端，即使对于拉丁美洲电视也是如此。
The women are pumped up with silicone and Botox and sometimes show up wearing almost nothing.
这些女性都注射了硅胶和肉毒杆菌，有时几乎什么也没穿。
The conversation is not just double entendres, but straight up entendres, full-on vulgar language.
谈话不只是双关语，而是直白的、完全粗俗的语言。
When I was growing up, it was a parade of pasties, stilettos, feather boas.
在我的成长过程中，人们总是穿着馅饼、细高跟鞋、羽毛围巾。
One of the most popular shows back then was hosted by a guy named Jorge Rial.
当时最受欢迎的节目之一是由一位名叫豪尔赫·里亚尔（Jorge Rial）的人主持的。
He's still on TV.
他还在电视上。
He's kind of the Argentine everyman-- charming and a little bit of a hustler.
他有点像阿根廷的普通人——很有魅力，而且有点骗子。
These days, his TV show is called Intrusos, or Intruders.
如今，他的电视节目被称为“Intrusos”或“入侵者”。
It takes place on a set that is just seizure inducing-- neon colors, walls lined with giant video screens.
它发生在一个令人癫痫发作的场景中——霓虹灯的颜色，墙壁上排列着巨大的视频屏幕。
Jorge Rial likes to stir up fights among his voluptuous guests.
豪尔赫·里亚尔喜欢在他的性感客人中挑起争斗。
Every time something shocking is said, ominous music rolls out.
每当说出令人震惊的事情时，就会响起不祥的音乐。
Once in a while, a woman is so sexy that Jorge Rial bites his lower lip and mugs for the camera.
偶尔，一个女人是如此性感，以至于豪尔赫·里亚尔（Jorge Rial）咬着下唇，在镜头前摆出一副表情。
This has been Rial's style for years.
多年来，这一直是 Rial 的风格。
Back in the day, Iaia would bring the tea and cookies and lie down next to me in her patent leather platform shoes, which she never took off, not even in bed.
以前，Iaia 会端上茶和饼干，穿着她的漆皮厚底鞋躺在我旁边，她从来不脱掉鞋子，甚至在床上也不脱。
My grandmother was the target audience for Rial's show, what's commonly known as a [SPANISH], a housewife.
我的祖母是 Rial 节目的目标观众，即俗称的[西班牙语]家庭主妇。
She loved to hate the show, to look disapprovingly at the women and comment how much surgery she's had.
她喜欢讨厌这个节目，不满地看着那些女人，并评论她做了多少次手术。
[SPANISH], a prostitute.
[西班牙语]，一名妓女。
[SPANISH].
[西班牙语]。
And they give her expensive gifts-- cars, vacations.
他们给了她昂贵的礼物——汽车、假期。
And I'd look around me at my grandmother's lonely apartment and think to myself, wow, that sounds pretty amazing.
我环顾四周，看看祖母孤独的公寓，心里想，哇，这听起来真是太神奇了。
I knew I didn't want to be a [SPANISH] when I grew up.
我知道我长大后不想成为一个[西班牙人]。
When I was a teenager, I moved to the US and eventually became a journalist.
当我十几岁的时候，我搬到了美国，最终成为了一名记者。
I've lived here for 15 years.
我在这里住了15年了。
Sometimes when I get homesick, I stream Intrusos on YouTube.
有时当我想家时，我会在 YouTube 上观看 Intrusos。
I leave it on when I cook and clean.
我做饭和打扫卫生时都会把它打开。
When I watch it, I'm not 5,000 miles away.
当我看着它时，我并不在5000英里之外。
Iaia is alive.
伊亚还活着。
Nothing has changed much.
一切都没有太大改变。
Nothing ever changes on Argentine daytime TV.
阿根廷日间电视节目没有任何变化。
Until suddenly, a few months ago, it did.
直到几个月前突然，它发生了。
One night in February, I was at home in New York cleaning my kitchen.
二月的一个晚上，我在纽约的家里打扫厨房。
Intrusos was on in the background, and I heard this woman with a raspy Lauren Bacall voice.
Intrusos 在后台播放，我听到这个女人的声音沙哑，劳伦·白考尔 (Lauren Bacall)。
I turned around, soapy sponge in hand, and squinted at the screen-- a tattooed, heavyset woman wearing sneakers.
我转过身来，手里拿着肥皂海绵，眯着眼睛看着屏幕——一个纹身的、身材魁梧的女人，穿着运动鞋。
I recognized this woman, a comedian named Senorita Bimbo.
我认出了这个女人，一位名叫宾博小姐的喜剧演员。
The stage name, Bimbo, is ironic.
艺名“Bimbo”颇具讽刺意味。
She's anything but.
她绝对不是。
In fact, the very next thing she did was look directly into the camera and offer a statistic about illegal abortion.
事实上，她做的下一件事就是直视镜头并提供有关非法堕胎的统计数据。
"500,000 women in Argentina have illegal abortions every year," she said.
“阿根廷每年有 50 万名妇女非法堕胎，”她说。
She was wearing a bright green handkerchief around her neck, a provocative symbol everyone in Argentina knows, a symbol of the fight to legalize abortion.
她脖子上挂着一条亮绿色的手帕，这是阿根廷每个人都知道的挑衅象征，也是堕胎合法化斗争的象征。
For years, activists have been pushing to get Congress to vote on it.
多年来，活动人士一直在推动国会对此进行投票。
When I was growing up, abortion was something you just didn't talk about in Argentina, a Catholic country.
在我成长的过程中，在天主教国家阿根廷，堕胎是你不会谈论的事情。
It's still not something that comes up on daytime TV.
这仍然不是白天电视上出现的事情。
Reproductive rights?
生育权？
That's just not Intrusos source material, though here was Jorge Rial, the host, looking intently at Senorita Bimbo.
这并不是 Intrusos 的原始资料，尽管主持人 Jorge Rial 正聚精会神地看着宾博小姐。
A few hours later, one of my best friends texted me, "Did you watch Intrusos today?" I sat down at my laptop and started scrolling through the descriptions of the last few episodes.
几个小时后，我最好的朋友之一发短信给我，“你今天看《Intrusos》了吗？”我坐在笔记本电脑前，开始滚动浏览最后几集的描述。
The guests were names I knew-- academics, writers, comedians.
客人都是我认识的人——学者、作家、喜剧演员。
What they had in common was they were all feminists, people who have been on the fringes for years criticizing sexism in Argentina and demanding women's rights.
她们的共同点是她们都是女权主义者，多年来一直处于批评阿根廷性别歧视并要求妇女权利的边缘。
I started binge watching.
我开始狂看。
In each episode, there was a nuanced conversation about feminism.
每集都有关于女权主义的细致入微的对话。
Rial looked kind of meek, but not in his usual, I've been overpowered by sexy ladies, way.
里亚尔看起来有点温顺，但不是他平时的样子，我已经被性感的女士压倒了。
He kept delivering these really impassioned monologues, saying I don't want to be a misogynist, a [SPANISH].
他不断地发表这些非常热情的独白，说我不想成为一个厌恶女性的人，一个[西班牙人]。
I'm a recovering [SPANISH].
我正在康复中[西班牙语]。
The Argentine everyman now appeared to be an earnest feminist.
这位阿根廷普通人现在似乎是一位真诚的女权主义者。
This was not the Rial I grew up with.
这不是我从小一起长大的里亚尔。
This was not the TV I grew up with.
这不是我从小一起长大的电视。
What happened?
发生了什么？
Could this possibly be sincere?
这可能是真诚的吗？
I flew to Argentina to find out.
我飞往阿根廷去寻找答案。
As soon as I got there, I went to the studios where Intrusos is taped.
我一到那里，就去了 Intrusos 的录音室。
I met Ana Laura Guevara, one of the show's executive producers.
我遇到了安娜·劳拉·格瓦拉，该剧的执行制片人之一。
[SPANISH] Interpreter Being live involves a lot of adrenaline.
[西班牙语] 口译员 现场表演需要大量的肾上腺素。
I really, really love the adrenaline there.
我真的非常喜欢那里的肾上腺素。
To be honest, I wasn't expecting an Intrusos executive producer to be a woman, especially not one like Ana Laura, a self-proclaimed feminist.
老实说，我没想到 Intrusos 的执行制片人会是一名女性，尤其是像安娜·劳拉这样自称女权主义者的人。
I had a really hard time wrapping my head around the fact that for 18 years, she had been behind this totally trashy and objectifying show.
我真的很难接受这样一个事实：18年来，她一直在幕后策划这个完全垃圾和物化的节目。
Ana Laura told me, it's just the job, one she's good at.
安娜·劳拉告诉我，这只是她擅长的工作。
It's intensely competitive.
竞争非常激烈。
In the control room, her face shines from the light of the monitor she's hunched over, like in a casino.
在控制室里，她弓着背，在显示器的灯光下，她的脸闪闪发亮，就像在赌场里一样。
A monitor that, minute by minute, tracks the ratings for Intrusos and every other show that's on the air at the same time.
该监视器可以每分钟跟踪 Intrusos 以及同时播出的所有其他节目的收视率。
I had no idea this was possible.
我不知道这是可能的。
Right now on Intrusos, there's a fight between a former cabaret dancer and a potential candidate for president.
现在，在 Intrusos 上，一位前歌舞表演者和一位潜在的总统候选人之间正在展开一场斗争。
This skyrocketed.
这一下就暴涨了。
The ratings are going up with this segment.
该部分的收视率正在上升。
It went from 4.0 to 4.6.
它从 4.0 升至 4.6。
This is doing better than the news.
这比新闻报道的效果还要好。
Next segment, a fashion model from the '80s says she has her suspicions about a designer's recent death.
在下一个片段中，一位 80 年代的时装模特表示，她对一位设计师最近的去世表示怀疑。
It dipped to 3.4.
跌至3.4。
The ratings plummet, nobody cares.
收视率直线下降，没人在意。
Ana Laura orders them to end the segment early.
安娜·劳拉命令他们提前结束该片段。
Interest lags for an instant, and Intrusos moves on.
兴趣暂时滞后，Intrusos 继续前进。
The story of how the feminists intruded into Intrusos is its own soap opera.
女权主义者如何闯入 Intrusos 的故事就像肥皂剧一样。
There are a gazillion gossip shows in Argentina.
阿根廷有无数的八卦节目。
It's like this whole universe.
这就像整个宇宙。
Back in January, one of the shows interviewed this famous singer, a leathery guy in a tropical shirt.
早在一月份，其中一个节目采访了这位著名歌手，一个穿着热带衬衫、皮肤黝黑的家伙。
In the middle of the interview, the singer casually repeats this awful saying I used to hear as a kid.
在采访中，这位歌手漫不经心地重复了我小时候经常听到的这句可怕的话。
"If someone wants to rape you, relax and enjoy it."
“如果有人想强奸你，放松并享受它。”
The first time I heard that was when I was nine years old.
我第一次听到这个说法是在我九岁的时候。
I was in the locker room, and a girl blurted it out.
我在更衣室里，一个女孩脱口而出。
I thought it was advice.
我以为这是建议。
A lot of my friends did, too.
我的很多朋友也这么做了。
So the singer says this offensive thing.
所以这位歌手说了这样令人反感的话。
A few days later, on another talk show, a soap opera star blows up about it.
几天后，在另一个脱口秀节目中，一位肥皂剧明星对此大发雷霆。
Her name is Araceli Gonzalez.
她的名字叫阿拉塞利·冈萨雷斯。
When I was a kid, her soap opera was huge.
当我还是个孩子的时候，她的肥皂剧很大。
She played a mute.
她扮演哑巴。
A hunk with feathered hair would talk at her while she listened tearfully.
一个长着羽毛的大块头会对她说话，而她则泪流满面地听着。
But now she wasn't mute.
但现在她不再沉默了。
She said the singer's remark made her sick.
她说这位歌手的言论让她感到恶心。
It was kind of beautiful seeing her get angry after so many years of playing a character literally defined by silence.
在扮演了一个沉默寡言的角色这么多年之后，看到她生气真是太美妙了。
Ana Laura from Intrusos saw the fight happening on TV, and she wanted to get a piece of it.
Intrusos 的安娜·劳拉 (Ana Laura) 在电视上看到了这场打斗，她想从中分一杯羹。
She booked Araceli to come on the show.
她预订了阿拉切利参加节目。
It was a typical day on Intrusos.
这是 Intrusos 上典型的一天。
Jorge Rial talked about how much granny panties used to turn him on as a kid.
豪尔赫·里亚尔 (Jorge Rial) 谈到了小时候奶奶内裤是多么让他兴奋。
Two former showgirls argued.
两名前歌舞女郎发生争执。
And then it was Araceli's turn.
然后轮到阿拉塞利了。
And just because Araceli had gotten mad about the rape comment, one of the panelists introduces her as a feminist.
仅仅因为阿拉塞利对强奸评论感到愤怒，一位小组成员就将她介绍为女权主义者。
As soon as Araceli got a chance, she corrected him.
阿拉塞利一有机会就纠正了他。
She says, "I heard you refer to me as a feminist just now, and I am not a feminist." She's vehemently wagging her finger as she says this.
她说：“我刚才听到你说我是女权主义者，但我不是女权主义者。”说这句话的时候，她用力地摇着手指。
"I have a wonderful husband and a lovely son whom I love very much, and I respect men." This set off another firestorm.
“我有一个很棒的丈夫和一个我非常爱的可爱的儿子，我尊重男人。”这又掀起了一场轩然大波。
Here's Ana Laura.
这是安娜·劳拉。
So people started tweeting about it and we saw that feminists started to respond.
于是人们开始在推特上谈论此事，我们看到女权主义者开始做出回应。
[SPANISH] Interpreter So everything exploded.
[西班牙语] 翻译所以一切都爆炸了。
There were the kinds of tweets you would expect like, quote, "What the fuck does loving your husband and son have to do with being a feminist, you moron?" And here it was, feminist versus the soap opera star, a fight made for daytime television.
你可能会看到这样的推文，比如“爱你的丈夫和儿子和女权主义者有什么关系，你这个白痴？”这就是女权主义者与肥皂剧明星之间的一场为日间电视播出的斗争。
And Ana Laura knew it.
安娜·劳拉知道这一点。
And she also knew Jorge Rial, the host of the show, something had been changing with him lately.
她还认识节目主持人豪尔赫·里亚尔（Jorge Rial），他最近发生了一些变化。
He'd been saying to anyone who would listen--
他一直在对任何愿意听的人说——
I am a [SPANISH] in recovery.
我是一名正在康复中的[西班牙人]。
I'm trying to find myself.
我正在努力寻找自己。
So she approached him in the dressing room.
于是她在更衣室里走向他。
And they started talking.
他们开始交谈。
Maybe we should have a feminist on the show to explain what feminism is.
也许我们应该在节目中请一位女权主义者来解释什么是女权主义。
We hadn't discussed that beforehand, but this day, in the dressing room, I think that he was really into it.
我们事先没有讨论过这个问题，但今天，在更衣室里，我认为他真的很喜欢。
They decided on a well-known feminist academic, Flor Freijo.
他们选择了一位著名的女权主义学者弗洛·弗雷霍（Flor Freijo）。
And even she'll tell you, she's a safe bet for a show like Intrusos.
甚至她也会告诉你，对于像 Intrusos 这样的节目来说，她是一个安全的选择。
She's thin and blonde.
她很瘦，金发碧眼。
So Flor gets invited to Intrusos, and the very first question Jorge Rial asks her is, what is feminism?
因此弗洛尔被邀请参加 Intrusos，豪尔赫·里亚尔问她的第一个问题是，什么是女权主义？
I didn't prepare anything.
我什么都没准备。
I didn't prepare a speech.
我没有准备演讲。
I didn't have time.
我没有时间。
So I went open to listen to the questions and explain things just as I do to my students in a class.
所以我敞开心扉倾听问题并解释事情，就像我在课堂上对学生所做的那样。
Of all the strange things I've seen on Argentine TV, this might be one of the oddest.
在我在阿根廷电视上看到的所有奇怪的事情中，这可能是最奇怪的之一。
Against a neon fizz background, Flor Freijo does a feminism 101.
在霓虹灯嘶嘶作响的背景下，Flor Freijo 演绎了女权主义 101。
At the bottom of the screen, a banner in bold letters reads, "Feminism-- it's a movement for women's rights." Flor starts explaining, feminism is a movement for women's rights.
屏幕底部有一条粗体横幅，上面写着：“女权主义——这是一场争取妇女权利的运动。”弗洛尔开始解释，女权主义是一场争取妇女权利的运动。
It started in the 19th century.
它始于19世纪。
It has to do with the division of labor, child rearing.
这与劳动分工、抚养孩子有关。
Jorge Rial is listening, completely mesmerized, his little eyebrows furrowed, scratching his beard.
豪尔赫·里亚尔听着，完全着了迷，他的小眉毛皱着，抓着胡子。
And while all this is happening, Ana Laura is sitting in the control room upstairs, watching everything, of course, and also keeping her eye on the ratings monitor.
当这一切发生时，安娜·劳拉坐在楼上的控制室里，注视着一切，当然，她也密切关注着收视率监视器。
The control room is usually a chaotic mess of yelling, but now, with Flor speaking--
控制室通常是一片混乱的叫喊声，但现在，弗洛说话了——
And when we were watching her talking, Flor, the control room went quiet.
当我们看着她说话时，弗洛尔，控制室安静了。
We were all paying attention to what she was saying.
我们都在注意她说的话。
But we were all quiet.
但我们都很安静。
We weren really silently watching and learning from her.
我们真的在默默地观察她并向她学习。
And then the spell is broken because the phone rings in the control room.
然后，控制室里的电话铃声响起，咒语被打破了。
It's Araceli, the soap opera star, who's the whole reason Flor is here.
肥皂剧明星阿拉塞利是弗洛在这里的全部原因。
She wants to talk to Flor live right now.
她现在想和弗洛进行现场交谈。
Everyone in the control room is geared up for a good old-fashioned Intrusos spat.
控制室里的每个人都做好了准备，准备进行一场老式的 Intrusos 口角。
[SPANISH] Jasmine Garsd Flor was kind of shocked.
[西班牙语] Jasmine Garsd Flor 有点震惊。
[SPANISH] I didn't know that Araceli was going to call.
[西班牙语] 我不知道阿拉塞利会打电话来。
I had no idea of what was going to happen.
我不知道会发生什么。
But it wasn't an ambush.
但这不是伏击。
Araceli wasn't calling to fight.
阿拉切利并不是来打仗的。
Instead, she tells Flor, I've been listening really well to what you're saying, and she wanted the audience to know that she didn't know what feminism was until just now, when she was watching TV and saw Flor explain it.
相反，她告诉弗洛，我一直在认真听你说的话，她想让观众知道，直到刚才她在看电视时看到弗洛解释时，她才知道女权主义是什么。
She starts telling the story of her life through various generations of women, her own single mother and herself.
她开始通过各代女性、她自己的单身母亲和她自己来讲述她的生活故事。
She talks about how she'd been sexually abused as a child and emotionally abused as an adult.
她讲述了她小时候如何受到性虐待，以及成年后如何受到情感虐待。
And Araceli told Flor, "I know what you're talking about, and I agree with you.
阿拉塞利告诉弗洛尔：“我知道你在说什么，我同意你的观点。
If this means being a feminist, then I'm a feminist."
如果这意味着成为一名女权主义者，那么我就是一名女权主义者。”
Flor nods and gives a thumbs up.
弗洛尔点点头，竖起大拇指。
By the way, this is never how Intrusos finishes.
顺便说一句，Intrusos 从来都不是这样完成的。
People don't just listen to each other and change their minds.
人们不只是互相倾听并改变想法。
And the ratings, Ana Laura says the ratings were great, strong enough that she decided, let's do this again tomorrow.
至于收视率，安娜·劳拉 (Ana Laura) 表示，收视率非常高，足够强大，她决定明天再做一次。
And so it began.
一切就这样开始了。
[OMINOUS MUSIC] Over the next few days, some of the most famous feminists in Argentina came on to Intrusos-- comedians, authors, professors.
[不祥的音乐] 在接下来的几天里，阿根廷一些最著名的女权主义者来到了 Intrusos——喜剧演员、作家、教授。
Audiences were stunned.
观众们都惊呆了。
Someone tweeted, "My ideology is starting to converge with Jorge Rial's, and that terrifies me." It was pretty strange for everyone.
有人发推文说：“我的意识形态开始与豪尔赫·里亚尔的一致，这让我感到害怕。”这对每个人来说都很奇怪。
This very misogynistic show had suddenly become like the public town hall on feminism in Argentina.
这场非常厌恶女性的表演突然变得像阿根廷女权主义的公共市政厅。
And the ratings were not just good.
而且收视率不仅好。
Ana Laura says they were higher than normal.
安娜·劳拉 (Ana Laura) 表示，这些数字高于正常水平。
She was delighted that she could keep this going.
她很高兴能够继续这样下去。
[SPANISH] Interpreter There is a journalist called Luciana Baker.
[西班牙语] 翻译 有一位记者，名叫卢西亚娜·贝克 (Luciana Baker)。
She is also very important in feminism.
她在女权主义中也非常重要。
And she is an old friend from college.
而且她还是大学时期的老朋友。
And she came to our show.
她也来参加我们的演出。
And when we met backstage, we were like, not even in our wildest dreams we could have dreamed about this, you being here in this type of show.
当我们在后台见面时，我们就想，即使是在我们最疯狂的梦想中，我们也无法梦想到你会出现在这种类型的节目中。
Midway through all of this is when I tuned down, when I started streaming in New York.
在这一切进行到一半的时候，我开始在纽约进行直播。
The show was going through hundreds of years of feminism in a couple of days.
该节目在几天内经历了数百年的女权主义。
They passed through topics like LGBT rights, workplace harassment, income inequality, and then the most taboo thing of all-- abortion.
他们讨论了 LGBT 权利、工作场所骚扰、收入不平等等话题，以及最禁忌的事情——堕胎。
Jorge Rial tied the green handkerchief around his wrist, the one activists who want to legalize abortion wear.
豪尔赫·里亚尔 (Jorge Rial) 将绿色手帕绑在手腕上，他是一位希望将堕胎服装合法化的积极分子。
And then he invited the large woman with the gravelly voice who I saw at home in New York City-- Senorita Bimbo.
然后他邀请了我在纽约家里见到的那位身材高大、声音沙哑的女人——宾博小姐。
Right off the bat, she said, the fact that there is a fat girl on Argentine TV is already a victory.
她说，阿根廷电视上出现一个胖女孩就已经是一个胜利。
She told me she was actually pretty nervous.
她告诉我她实际上很紧张。
The first thing I thought was, what they're all going to say is like, what is this fat girl doing here, this fat girl feminazi?
我首先想到的是，他们都会说，这个胖女孩在这里做什么，这个胖女孩女权主义者？
But she powered through.
但她还是挺过来了。
She had a mission.
她有一个使命。
I knew I wanted to talk about abortion.
我知道我想谈论堕胎。
My plan was to at least mention it.
我的计划是至少提及它。
And I just sat down and started talking.
我就坐下来开始说话。
I felt like I was going to battle where I had to use words as arrows because abortion is something that you don't see.
我觉得我要去战斗，我必须用文字作为箭头，因为堕胎是你看不到的东西。
It's something that you talk about in hushed tones if you have one.
如果你有的话，你会小声谈论这一件事。
On Intrusos, Senorita Bimbo talked about how abortion is so taboo, you don't even talk about it in fiction.
在 Intrusos 节目中，宾博女士谈到堕胎是如此禁忌，甚至在小说中都不会谈论它。
In Argentine TV and film, unwanted pregnancy is solved by a villain pushing you down the stairs and causing you to miscarry.
在阿根廷电视和电影中，意外怀孕的解决方法是恶棍将你推下楼梯并导致你流产。
And then, about 30 seconds before they cut to commercial and moved to the next guest, Senorita Bimbo said something about abortion that surprised even her.
然后，在切入广告并转向下一位嘉宾之前大约 30 秒，宾博女士说了一些关于堕胎的事情，连她自己都感到惊讶。
Misoprostol.
米索前列醇。
She says, "I want girls to know about misoprostol." This is a really big deal.
她说：“我希望女孩们了解米索前列醇。”这确实是一件大事。
Officially, misoprostol is a drug used to treat stomach ulcers, but it can also be used to induce labor.
按照官方说法，米索前列醇是一种用于治疗胃溃疡的药物，但它也可用于引产。
So in a continent where abortion is mostly banned, women take it if they want to miscarry.
因此，在一个基本上禁止堕胎的大陆，女性如果想流产就必须堕胎。
People call it the DIY abortion.
人们称之为DIY堕胎。
She's talking about doing something illegal on one of the most popular daytime talk shows, watched by housewives.
她正在谈论在家庭主妇观看的最受欢迎的日间脱口秀节目之一中做一些非法的事情。
That same day, misoprostol was one of the most googled words in the country.
同一天，米索前列醇成为该国谷歌搜索次数最多的单词之一。
I think you're underestimating your audience, Senorita Bimbo said on the show.
“我认为你低估了你的观众，”宾博女士在节目中说道。
The [SPANISH] is dead.
[西班牙语]死了。
The [SPANISH], that stereotypical Argentine housewife.
[西班牙语]，典型的阿根廷家庭主妇。
[SPANISH] Interpreter So the woman that is in front of the TV and who needs her world to be explained to her through daytime TV, she just doesn't exist anymore.
[西班牙语] 翻译 因此，那个在电视机前、需要通过白天电视向她解释她的世界的女人，她已经不存在了。
Of course, none of this would have happened on Intrusos if the ratings had been bad.
当然，如果 Intrusos 的收视率很差，这一切都不会发生。
And the ratings were great, for reasons that Jorge Rial and Ana Laura can claim no credit for at all.
而且收视率很高，其原因豪尔赫·里亚尔（Jorge Rial）和安娜·劳拉（Ana Laura）根本无法声称有任何功劳。
Feminism has been gaining critical mass in Argentina for the last couple of years.
过去几年来，女权主义在阿根廷越来越受欢迎。
The movement was triggered by these brutal murders of young women, often by boyfriends, husbands, and fathers.
这场运动是由这些对年轻女性的残酷谋杀引发的，谋杀者通常是男朋友、丈夫和父亲。
Women started protesting.
妇女们开始抗议。
A whole crusade was born.
一场完整的十字军东征诞生了。
It was called Ni Una Menos, not one less woman.
这个女人名叫“Ni Una Menos”，一个也不少。
And since 2015, this has grown to the point where it's impossible to ignore and has expanded to abortion rights, street harassment, and equal pay.
自 2015 年以来，这一问题已发展到无法忽视的地步，并已扩展到堕胎权、街头骚扰和同工同酬。
It's young people on social media, comedians on YouTube, pop stars on Instagram, gigantic demonstrations.
社交媒体上有年轻人，YouTube 上有喜剧演员，Instagram 上有流行歌星，还有大规模的示威活动。
It just wasn't a topic for daytime talk shows until Jorge, Ana Laura, and Intrusos.
直到 Jorge、Ana Laura 和 Intrusos 出现之前，这才成为日间脱口秀的话题。
During that week on Intrusos, there was this explosion of tweets from young girls, perplexed but ecstatic to see feminism on daytime TV.
在 Intrusos 的那一周，年轻女孩的推文激增，她们对日间电视上的女权主义感到困惑但欣喜若狂。
This one girl, Anita Ocampo, tweeted, "I showed my dad the Intrusos episode with Senorita Bimbo." I dropped by her house, and she told me these feminists were explaining to Jorge Rial all the things she tried to explain, but couldn't get her parents to understand.
这位名叫安妮塔·奥坎波 (Anita Ocampo) 的女孩在推特上写道：“我给我爸爸看了《Intrusos》和宾博女士的剧集。”我顺便去了她家，她告诉我这些女权主义者正在向豪尔赫·里亚尔解释她试图解释的所有事情，但无法让她的父母理解。
So one night, she approached her dad.
于是有一天晚上，她找到了她的父亲。
And she told him, "If you watch this episode of Intrusos on YouTube with me, I'll massage your feet." She ended up getting the whole family to watch.
她告诉他，“如果你和我一起在 YouTube 上观看 Intrusos 的这一集，我会按摩你的脚。”她最终让全家人都观看了。
She showed them Senorita Bimbo.
她向他们展示了宾博女士。
She pointed to Jorge Rial wearing the same green handkerchief she wears and said, "Look, it's just like mine."
她指着豪尔赫·里亚尔（Jorge Rial），她戴着和她一样的绿色手帕，说：“看，这就像我的一样。”
It opened up a conversation, which she says they've been having ever since.
这开启了一场对话，她说从那时起他们就一直在进行对话。
Anita's mom says she saw Jorge Rial talk about how he's a recovering chauvinist.
安妮塔的妈妈说，她看到豪尔赫·里亚尔谈论他是一个正在康复的沙文主义者。
And she says, so is she.
她说，她也是。
"I'm not like 70% feminism," she says.
“我不像 70% 的女权主义者，”她说。
"I still have 30% left to go."
“我还剩下30%的时间。”
During my week in Argentina, I kept trying to talk to Jorge Rial, and he kept blowing me off.
在阿根廷的那一周，我一直试图与豪尔赫·里亚尔交谈，但他总是拒绝我。
Had he really converted to feminism?
他真的皈依了女权主义吗？
Everyone I asked rolled their eyes and pointed to the last few decades of his career.
我问到的每个人都翻白眼，并指出他职业生涯的最后几十年。
They pointed to his recent vicious public fight with one of his daughters.
他们指出他最近与他的一个女儿发生了激烈的公开争斗。
They pointed to how late he is to the whole feminism thing.
他们指出他对整个女权主义的关注是多么的晚。
He's a Johnny come lately.
他是最近才来的约翰尼。
He's only doing this because it'll make him more popular.
他这样做只是因为这会让他更受欢迎。
After days of giving me the runaround, he told me to just send my questions.
经过几天的周折，他让我直接提出问题。
And finally, on my very last night in Argentina, my phone lit up.
最后，在我在阿根廷的最后一晚，我的手机亮了。
It was voice memos from Jorge Rial.
这是豪尔赫·里亚尔的语音备忘录。
"What happened to me?" Rial says.
“我怎么了？”里亚尔说。
"What made me bring all these feminists onto Intrusos?"
“是什么让我把所有这些女权主义者带入了 Intrusos？”
He talks about his 18-year-old daughter, Rosio, and how she's a feminist.
他谈到了他 18 岁的女儿罗西奥，以及她如何成为一名女权主义者。
"We have these very interesting talks over dinner," he says.
“我们在晚餐时进行了这些非常有趣的谈话，”他说。
"And she started opening this world up to me.
“她开始向我打开这个世界。
I am 56 years old.
我今年56岁。
I was raised in a completely sexist culture.
我是在完全性别歧视的文化中长大的。
I didn't get it.
我没明白。
That's why I say I'm a recovering chauvinist, thanks to my daughter.
这就是为什么我说我是一个正在康复的沙文主义者，这要感谢我的女儿。
My daughter made me change."
我的女儿让我改变了。”
Jorge Rial knows that I think Intrusos is stupid.
Jorge Rial 知道我认为 Intrusos 很愚蠢。
He knows most people do.
他知道大多数人都这样做。
That's the show's superpower.
这就是这部剧的超能力。
"Frivolo--" we're frivolous.
“Frivolo——”我们很轻浮。
We're a show about show biz.
我们是一档关于演艺界的节目。
No one suspected that this is where feminism could win.
没有人怀疑这就是女权主义能够获胜的地方。
We eluded the firewalls that kept feminism off of TV.
我们避开了将女权主义排除在电视之外的防火墙。
There was this wall.
原来有这堵墙。
You couldn't talk about these things on TV.
你不能在电视上谈论这些事情。
And suddenly it happened on Intrusos.
突然，这种情况发生在 Intrusos 上。
But to be honest, he said, it's all because of feminists.
但说实话，他说，这都是因为女权主义者。
They knew any place is good if you have a strong message.
他们知道，如果你有强烈的信息，任何地方都是好的。
After the week of feminism, Intrusos was left with a split personality.
经过一周的女权主义运动后，Intrusos 的人格分裂了。
These days, it's a mix of fighting starlets and women's rights activists.
如今，它是战斗新星和女权活动家的混合体。
Jorge Rial's social media is a mix of World Cup woes, celebrity gossip, and then these really earnest feminist tweets, like this one a few weeks ago.
豪尔赫·里亚尔 (Jorge Rial) 的社交媒体上充斥着世界杯灾难、名人八卦，还有这些真正真诚的女权主义推文，就像几周前的这条推文。
"They came to make things better for the coming generations for our daughters and their daughters and also for men.
“他们来到这里是为了让我们的女儿、他们的女儿以及人类的子孙后代过得更好。
The men who come after us must be better than us.
在我们之后的人一定比我们更好。
We did everything wrong."
我们做的一切都是错的。”
The day after he tweeted that on June 14th, Argentina's lower house of Congress approved a bill to legalize abortion.
就在他发推文称6月14日阿根廷国会下议院批准了一项堕胎合法化法案的第二天。
After an all night debate, it barely passed by only four votes.
经过整晚的辩论，该法案仅以四票之差勉强通过。
And it yet has to pass the upper house.
但它还需要在上议院获得通过。
Still, outside Congress, thousands of women and activists who'd gathered to wait for the results celebrated wildly.
尽管如此，在国会外，数千名聚集在一起等待结果的妇女和活动人士仍在疯狂庆祝。
[CHEERING] Every time I spoke to those women about what role television like Intrusos played in all this, they got uncomfortable.
[欢呼]每次我和那些女性谈论像 Intrusos 这样的电视在这一切中扮演的角色时，她们都会感到不舒服。
On my last day in Argentina, I grabbed a coffee with an old friend from high school, Jordana Timmerman.
在阿根廷的最后一天，我和高中的老朋友乔丹娜·蒂默曼一起喝了一杯咖啡。
She recently wrote an op-ed for The New York Times about the push to legalize abortion in Argentina.
她最近为《纽约时报》撰写了一篇关于推动阿根廷堕胎合法化的专栏文章。
And we talked about the role pop culture played in that.
我们讨论了流行文化在其中发挥的作用。
You need to have people like Rial or pop culture, dona rosa, understanding that this is a necessary right because if not, it's not going to happen.
你需要像 Rial 或流行文化、dona rosa 这样的人了解这是一项必要的权利，因为如果不这样做，它就不会发生。
In other words, the message needs to go into homes in the most remote locations of the country.
换句话说，信息需要进入该国最偏远地区的家庭。
And TV is one of the only ways to do that.
而电视是实现这一目标的唯一途径之一。
Jordana was saying Intrusos helped.
Jordana 说 Intrusos 有帮助。
But when I asked her about whether we should thank Jorge Rial, she just laughs.
但当我问她我们是否应该感谢豪尔赫·里亚尔时，她只是笑了。
I'm not going on record with that.
我不会记录这一点。
Are you crazy?
你疯了？
I have a name.
我有一个名字。
I know what she means.
我知道她的意思。
After so many years of awful television and this guy's shenanigans, I just don't want to tip my hat to him.
经过这么多年糟糕的电视节目和这个家伙的恶作剧，我只是不想向他脱帽致敬。
And maybe that's part of his penance.
也许这就是他忏悔的一部分。
He did something good, and no one will ever thank him for it.
他做了一件好事，没有人会为此感谢他。
Jasmine Garsd.
茉莉花加斯德。
She's a senior reporter at Marketplace.
她是 Marketplace 的高级记者。
This story was co-produced with Marianne McCune as part of a collaboration with the NPR podcast, Rough Translation, which you can find whenever you get your podcasts.
这个故事是与 Marianne McCune 共同制作的，是与 NPR 播客 Rough Translation 合作的一部分，您可以在任何时候找到播客。
So we first put this story out in 2018.
所以我们在 2018 年首次发布了这个故事。
And the changes in Jorge Rial, they didn't exactly stick.
而豪尔赫·里亚尔的改变并没有完全坚持下去。
Rial's show went back to its original content in the year since.
里亚尔的节目从那一年起又回到了原来的内容。
And he recently said he is not a feminist and that, quote, "It was all a mistake, having those feminists on the show." He does still describe himself as a recovering misogynist, however.
他最近表示自己不是女权主义者，并引用“让那些女权主义者出现在节目中这完全是一个错误”。然而，他仍然将自己描述为一个正在康复的厌女症患者。
And as far as the country of Argentina, abortion is still very restricted there.
就阿根廷而言，堕胎仍然受到严格限制。
The Senate ended up rejecting the bill mentioned in the story.
参议院最终否决了故事中提到的法案。
[MUSIC - "I CAN CHANGE" BY LCD SOUNDSYSTEM]
[音乐 - 液晶音响系统的“我可以改变”]
Credits Ira Glass Our program was produced today by Aviva DeKornfeld.
图片来源 Ira Glass 今天我们的节目由 Aviva DeKornfeld 制作。
The people who put together today's show include Bim Adewunmi, Susan Burton, Ben Calhoun, Dana Chivvis, Sean Cole, Noor Gill, Damian Grave, Michelle Harris, Chana Joffe-Walt, Seth Lind, Stowe Nelson, Katherine Rae Mondo, Nadia Reiman, Robyn Semien, Alyssa Shipp, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, Julie Whitaker, and Diane Wu.
今天节目的制作人包括 Bim Adewunmi、Susan Burton、Ben Calhoun、Dana Chivvis、Sean Cole、Noor Gill、Damian Grave、Michelle Harris、Chana Joffe-Walt、Seth Lind、Stowe Nelson、Katherine Rae Mondo、Nadia Reiman、Robyn Semien、Alyssa Shipp、Christopher Swetala、Matt Tierney、Julie Whitaker 和吴黛安.
Our managing editor is Sarah Abdurrahman.
我们的总编辑是萨拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sarah Abdurrahman)。
Our senior editor is David Kestenbaum.
我们的高级编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。
Our executive editor is Emanuele Berry.
我们的执行编辑是 Emanuele Berry。
Special thanks today to Paul Bresnahan, Matt Fuller, Chris Crawford, and Cecil Ranieri.
今天特别感谢保罗·布雷斯纳汉、马特·富勒、克里斯·克劳福德和塞西尔·拉涅利。
Our website, ThisAmericanLife.org.
我们的网站 ThisAmericanLife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
You know, he just called President Trump, telling him to concede, but not just to concede.
你知道，他刚刚给特朗普总统打电话，告诉他让步，但不仅仅是让步。
Torey gave him some proposed language.
托雷给了他一些建议的语言。
He was like, OK, listen.
他说，好吧，听着。
This is what you should say to Joe Biden.
这就是你应该对乔·拜登说的话。
Just put it exactly like this.
就这样说吧。
I just want to say you are kind and-- you are so kind, and sweet, and nice.
我只想说你很善良，而且——你是如此善良、可爱、友善。
And you are a great person.
你是一个很棒的人。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
[MUSIC - "I CAN CHANGE" BY LCD SOUNDSYSTEM]
[音乐 - 液晶音响系统的“我可以改变”]
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。