72: Trek - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #72 | July 2, 1999 72: Trek Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 72 集 | 1999 年 7 月 2 日 72：Trek 注意：《This American Life》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass From WBEZ Chicago and Public Radio International, it's This American Life .
序言 来自 WBEZ 芝加哥和国际公共广播电台的 Ira Glass，这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today on our program, the story of two Americans who went to South Africa.
今天我们的节目讲述了两个前往南非的美国人的故事。
One's white, one's black.
一个是白人，一个是黑人。
And they went there because there's something about South Africa for them and for many Americans, something familiar and unfamiliar at the same time in a way that makes it mesmerizing.
他们去那里是因为南非对他们和许多美国人来说都有一些东西，既熟悉又陌生，让人着迷。
Robert Kennedy described this congruence of nations as well as anybody.
罗伯特·肯尼迪描述了国家和任何人的这种一致性。
In 1966, he was visiting South Africa.
1966年，他访问南非。
And he began a speech at the University of Cape Town this way--
他在开普敦大学的演讲是这样开始的——
I come here because of my deep interest and affection for a land settled by the Dutch in the mid-17th century, then taken over by the British, and at last independent.
我来到这里是因为我对这片在 17 世纪中叶由荷兰人定居、后来被英国人占领并最终独立的土地有着浓厚的兴趣和感情。
A land in which the native inhabitants were at first subdued, but relations with whom remain a problem to this day.
这片土地上的原住民最初是被征服的，但与他们的关系至今仍然是一个问题。
A land which was once the importer of slaves and now must struggle to wipe out the last traces of that former bondage.
这片土地曾经是奴隶的进口国，现在必须努力消除以前奴役的最后痕迹。
I refer, of course, to the United States of America.
当然，我指的是美利坚合众国。
[APPLAUSE] Ira Glass That stunned pause before the audience begins applauding, I think that's so beautiful.
[掌声] Ira Glass 在观众开始鼓掌之前那令人震惊的停顿，我认为那太美了。
More than England or France or Israel, more than Canada or Japan, when we think of South Africa, it is a more interesting mirror of the United States than nearly any country.
当我们想到南非时，它比英国、法国或以色列、加拿大或日本更能体现美国，几乎比任何国家都更有趣。
I think because we glimpse a distant echo of the most frightening parts of our own country and the most inspiring parts.
我想是因为我们瞥见了我们国家最可怕的部分和最鼓舞人心的部分的遥远回声。
In the 1950s and '60s, black South Africans looked to the US for inspiration.
在 20 世纪 50 年代和 60 年代，南非黑人向美国寻求灵感。
Lewis Nkosi lived in Sophiatown.
刘易斯·恩科西住在索菲亚敦。
He remembers reading American literature like Langston Hughes' Simple Speaks His Mind.
他记得读过兰斯顿休斯的《简单说出他的想法》等美国文学作品。
We used to laugh so much about what he was saying, because it sounded to us like this was Johannesburg.
我们常常为他所说的话而大笑，因为对我们来说，这听起来就像是约翰内斯堡。
And listening to the music, the films like Stormy Weather were just speaking for us.
听着音乐，像《暴风雨天气》这样的电影就在为我们说话。
"Harlem was like our neighborhood," Lewis Nkosi says.
“哈莱姆区就像我们的社区，”刘易斯·恩科西说。
Black South Africans in Sophiatown listened to Dizzy Gillespie and Charlie Parker and Miles Davis, tried to dress and talk like Lena Horne and Cab Calloway.
索菲亚敦的南非黑人听着迪兹·吉莱斯皮、查理·帕克和迈尔斯·戴维斯的音乐，尝试着像莉娜·霍恩和凯布·卡洛韦那样穿着和说话。
In Sophiatown, gang members modeled themselves after Hollywood movies, dressed in zoot suits, picked up phrases from tough guy films like Street with No Name.
在索菲亚镇，帮派成员模仿好莱坞电影，穿着佐特套装，模仿《无名街》等硬汉电影中的短语。
We wanted to sound like Americans, to relate to American culture.
我们希望听起来像美国人，与美国文化产生共鸣。
And we wanted also to fantasize about being black Americans rather than black South Africans, because the intensification of suffering in South Africa was just too great.
我们还想幻想自己是美国黑人而不是南非黑人，因为南非的苦难实在太严重了。
America, it was a country where you have Thurgood Marshall working to eliminate a lot of the civil rights abuses and getting schools integrated and so on.
在美国，瑟古德·马歇尔（Thurgood Marshall）致力于消除许多侵犯公民权利的行为，并使学校一体化等等。
So you know, this was a movement in the opposite direction to where we were moving.
所以你知道，这是与我们前进方向相反的运动。
Nations, like men, often march to the beat of different drummers.
国家就像人一样，常常随着不同鼓手的节奏行进。
And the precise solutions of the United States can neither be dictated nor transplanted to others.
美国的具体解决方案既不能强加于人，也不能移植给其他国家。
What is important, however, is that all nations must march toward increasing freedom, toward justice for all.
然而，重要的是所有国家都必须朝着增加自由、人人享有正义的方向前进。
You must do this not because it is economically advantageous, although it is, not because the laws of God commanded, although they do, we must do it for the single and fundamental reason that it is the right thing to do.
你必须这样做，不是因为它在经济上有利，尽管它是，也不是因为上帝的法律命令，尽管它们这样做，我们必须这样做，因为唯一而根本的原因是，这是正确的事情。
[APPLAUSE] Lewis Nkosi And looking to America as a land of hope, this is a cliche now.
[掌声]刘易斯·恩科西 (Lewis Nkosi) 将美国视为希望之地，现在这已经是陈词滥调了。
But we really did believe that.
但我们确实相信这一点。
Now, of course, the situation is reversed.
当然，现在情况已经逆转了。
Once Nelson Mandela got out of prison, and especially after he entered the president's office, it's been black Americans who look to South Africa for inspiration.
纳尔逊·曼德拉出狱后，特别是在他进入总统办公室后，美国黑人开始向南非寻求灵感。
A few years ago, I did a series of stories for National Public Radio with a South African reporter, comparing race relations in the US with race relations in South Africa.
几年前，我和一位南非记者为国家公共广播电台做了一系列报道，比较了美国和南非的种族关系。
And one of the most striking differences between the way that blacks in the two countries saw things was blacks in South Africa, they said they had hope.
两国黑人看待事物的方式之间最显着的差异之一是南非黑人，他们说他们有希望。
Of course, it isn't just black Americans who look to South Africa to see a place where things are changing, where things are getting better in small ways.
当然，不仅仅是美国黑人将南非视为一个正在发生变化、正在小规模改善的地方。
Today, we've devoted our entire program to the story of two guys who look to South Africa that way.
今天，我们的整个节目主要讲述两个以这种方式看待南非的人的故事。
Their names are Josh Seftel and Rich Robinson.
他们的名字是乔什·塞夫特尔和里奇·罗宾逊。
Both of them grew up in the normal morass of post-civil rights race relations in this country, went to schools that were integrated but where blacks and whites usually stayed separate, rarely mixed.
他们都在这个国家后民权种族关系的正常困境中长大，就读于融合的学校，但黑人和白人通常分开，很少混合。
So they headed to the new South Africa for a few weeks.
于是他们前往新南非待了几个星期。
And it turns out they did not agree on what they saw there.
事实证明，他们对在那里看到的情况并不一致。
What we bring you today is partly a story of the emerging multiracial society over there and partly a story about the one here at home to contemplate this 4th of July weekend.
今天我们为您带来的故事，部分是关于那里新兴的多种族社会的故事，部分是关于在家里思考 7 月 4 日周末的故事。
Rich starts our story.
里奇开始了我们的故事。
It was my idea to go to South Africa.
去南非是我的想法。
I'd met this South African guy at work.
我在工作中认识了这个南非人。
He told me that South Africa is the most beautiful country in the world and that everything you see on TV about it is wrong.
他告诉我，南非是世界上最美丽的国家，你在电视上看到的一切都是错误的。
I asked Josh to go with me.
我请乔希和我一起去。
I had another reason for wanting to visit South Africa.
我想去南非还有另一个原因。
I had just gotten a letter from some South African guy named Benzion Seftel asking if we might be related.
我刚刚收到一位名叫 Benzion Seftel 的南非人的来信，询问我们是否有亲戚关系。
My family's very small.
我的家庭很小。
Besides my parents and two sisters, there's only a few Seftels in all of North America.
除了我的父母和两个姐妹之外，整个北美只有几家塞夫特尔酒店。
I guess I was simultaneously excited and scared.
我想我既兴奋又害怕。
I mean, it's not every day that the size of your family suddenly doubles.
我的意思是，家庭规模突然增加一倍并不是每天都会发生的。
But when they're white South Africans, all these questions pop into your head, the first and most obvious question being, "So do they hate black people?" I mean, what do you do when your family doubles in size but the new half is a bunch of white supremacists?
但当他们是南非白人时，所有这些问题都会出现在你的脑海中，第一个也是最明显的问题是，“那么他们讨厌黑人吗？”我的意思是，当你的家庭规模扩大一倍，但新的一半是一群白人至上主义者时，你会怎么做？
I decided not to share any of these worries with Rich.
我决定不与里奇分享任何这些担忧。
Josh and I met 10 years ago in college.
乔什和我十年前在大学认识。
We ended up living in the same house, and we've lived together off and on since then.
我们最终住在同一所房子里，从那时起我们就断断续续地住在一起。
Josh is the son of a Jewish doctor in the suburbs.
乔什是郊区一位犹太医生的儿子。
I grew up in the city.
我在城市长大。
My parents are public high school teachers.
我的父母是公立高中老师。
He's white, I'm black, but none of this has ever been an issue.
他是白人，我是黑人，但这都不是问题。
Before this trip, I don't think we ever had one serious talk about race.
在这次旅行之前，我认为我们从未认真讨论过种族问题。
We both wanted to see the new South Africa, to see how much the country had changed since Nelson Mandela took power two years ago.
我们都想看到新的南非，看看自两年前纳尔逊·曼德拉上台以来这个国家发生了多大的变化。
We decided to begin our search in a neighborhood called Yeoville.
我们决定从一个叫约维尔的社区开始搜索。
The free magazine they give you on the plane had an article about it.
他们在飞机上给你的免费杂志上有一篇关于它的文章。
Lots of glossy pictures of blacks and whites laughing together in the streets, drinking together in bars and clubs, eating together in restaurants.
许多光鲜亮丽的照片显示黑人和白人在街上一起欢笑，在酒吧和俱乐部一起喝酒，在餐馆一起吃饭。
[CLUB MUSIC] Josh Seftel Yeoville's a party.
[俱乐部音乐] 乔什·塞夫特尔·约维尔 (Josh Seftel Yeoville) 正在举办一场派对。
The street is lined with outdoor cafes, people are wearing Nike T-shirts, New York Yankees hats, all kinds of American stuff.
街道两旁都是露天咖啡馆，人们穿着耐克T恤、纽约洋基队帽子，各种美国货。
The scene is just like the magazine pictures.
场景就像杂志上的照片一样。
Blacks and whites talk together and drive by us in BMWs and Mercedes.
黑人和白人一起交谈，开着宝马和奔驰从我们身边驶过。
When Rich and I go into a convenience store to get a drink, there's a tall black man wearing a Public Enemy T-shirt in the corner.
当里奇和我去一家便利店买饮料时，角落里有一个穿着公敌 T 恤的高个子黑人。
He's playing Pac-Man.
他正在玩吃豆人。
I tell you, things are going properly.
我告诉你，事情进展顺利。
We are just mixing up.
我们只是混淆了。
Like, I'm talking to you guys.
就像，我正在和你们说话。
I think you are colored, yeah?
我认为你是有色人种，是吗？
You are colored?
你是有色人种吗？
We call it "black" in America.
在美国我们称之为“黑色”。
Is it?
是吗？
OK, that's black.
好吧，那是黑色的。
And you're "white," right?
你是“白人”，对吗？
I'm white.
我是白人。
Yeoville Man Yeah, sure, sure, sure.
约维尔人 是的，当然，当然，当然。
That's OK.
没关系。
I mean, that is positive.
我的意思是，这是积极的。
You can look like my woman.
你可以看起来像我的女人。
She has [?
她有[?
got a ?] white too, man.
还有一个？]白色的，伙计。
Standing over by the pay phone, his girlfriend was plump and rosy in an African print jumpsuit and a red cashmere Kangol beret.
他的女朋友站在公用电话旁，身材丰满，红润，穿着非洲印花连身裤，戴着红色坎戈尔羊绒贝雷帽。
She's not from around here, but still, I've got here my woman, my white woman.
她不是来自这里，但我仍然有我的女人，我的白人女人。
Lovely.
迷人的。
I love her to the maximum, I'll tell you that.
我非常爱她，我会告诉你。
But it's like, anyway--
但无论如何，这就像——
Do think that Yeoville is maybe one of the best places right now because it's mixed?
您是否认为约维尔可能是目前最好的地方之一，因为它是混合的？
That's the pager, my man.
那是寻呼机，伙计。
[UNINTELLIGIBLE].
[无法理解]。
What does it say?
它说什么？
Yeoville Man "Talking nonsense." [UNINTELLIGIBLE].
约维尔男子“胡说八道。” [无法理解]。
Your girlfriend just paged you from across the room?
你女朋友刚刚从房间另一头给你传呼？
Yeah.
是的。
She just went to the phone call and paged me, and it's like, hey, beeping!
她刚刚去打电话给我传呼，就像，嘿，嘟嘟声！
She's-- anyway, guys, hey.
无论如何，她是——伙计们，嘿。
Mary.
玛丽.
Josh Seftel Mary.
乔什·塞夫特尔·玛丽。
If you came into this store five years ago with Mary-- a white woman, black man-- what would have happened?
如果五年前你和玛丽——一个白人女性，黑人——一起走进这家商店，会发生什么？
You would have been dead eight years ago?
八年前你就已经死了？
That's true.
这是真的。
Josh Seftel Why?
乔什·塞夫特尔 为什么？
What would have happened?
会发生什么？
Yeah.
是的。
Because I would have been killed by my own brothers because they were fighting against the white people.
因为我可能会被我自己的兄弟杀死，因为他们正在与白人作战。
And if they would have seen me with a white woman, that's the end.
如果他们看到我和一个白人女人在一起，那就结束了。
It was our first day in South Africa, and it seemed like everything you'd want it to be, everything you'd dreamed of for the new multiracial society.
这是我们在南非的第一天，这似乎就是你想要的一切，你对新的多种族社会的梦想。
Blacks and whites together, Pac-man, and personal pagers.
黑人和白人在一起，吃豆人，还有个人寻呼机。
We went to the Pita Palace for a celebratory souvlaki, and there, our celebration was cut short.
我们去皮塔宫庆祝烤肉串，在那里，我们的庆祝活动被缩短了。
I'm now 21 years old, right?
我现在21岁了，对吗？
And what I did was I decided that I have to leave this country.
我所做的就是我决定我必须离开这个国家。
I can't raise my children here.
我无法在这里抚养我的孩子。
There's too much crime.
犯罪太多了。
And they'll just break into your house, take your stuff, and go.
他们会闯入你的房子，拿走你的东西，然后就走。
They come into your house, they break in, they rape your wife, they shoot you, and totally destroy your life.
他们进入你的房子，闯入，强奸你的妻子，他们射杀你，彻底摧毁你的生活。
Kind of like the black people are taking revenge on the whites for apartheid, you know?
有点像黑人向白人报复种族隔离，你知道吗？
Someone got around and said, "Oh, let's drive them out of the country." And it's working, because every single year, the emigrations are going up.
有人围过来说：“哦，我们把他们赶出这个国家吧。”它正在发挥作用，因为每年移民人数都在增加。
Yeah.
是的。
Didn't you know that?
你不知道吗？
Thousands, thousands.
数千，数千。
I know of hundreds of families that have emigrated this year.
据我所知，今年有数百个家庭移民了。
You're going to leave soon?
你很快就要离开吗？
Dimitri As soon as I can, yeah.
迪米特里 尽快，是的。
Over the next few days, we would hear Dimitri's story over and over.
在接下来的几天里，我们会一遍又一遍地听到迪米特里的故事。
Wherever we went, people talked about crime and fear and whites leaving.
无论我们走到哪里，人们都在谈论犯罪和恐惧以及白人的离开。
That night when we walked home through the dark streets of Johannesburg, we found a shiny bullet shell on the pavement.
那天晚上，当我们穿过约翰内斯堡黑暗的街道回家时，我们在人行道上发现了一枚闪亮的弹壳。
We took a cab the rest of the way home.
剩下的路我们打了一辆出租车回家。
[RUNNING WATER] Rich Robinson You excited?
[流水] Rich Robinson 你兴奋吗？
About what?
关于什么？
Rich Robinson What are you doing today?
里奇·罗宾逊 你今天在做什么？
--the people that I think are my relatives.
——我认为是我的亲戚的人。
That's why I'm shaving.
这就是我刮胡子的原因。
So how many times have you talked to them?
那么你和他们谈过多少次了？
Well, I've talked to them on the phone once-- twice.
嗯，我和他们通过一次电话——两次。
Do you think they're shaving right now too?
你认为他们现在也在刮胡子吗？
I can only hope so.
我只能希望如此。
Rich Robinson Are you nervous?
里奇·罗宾逊 你紧张吗？
Not really.
并不真地。
I mean, it could be interesting.
我的意思是，这可能很有趣。
I'm just afraid that they're going to be racist and they're going to hate you because you're black, and that you'd never forgive me for it.
我只是担心他们会成为种族主义者，他们会因为你是黑人而恨你，而你永远不会原谅我。
So you're going to have a little anxious energy?
那么你会有一点焦虑的能量吗？
Perhaps.
也许。
Molly Seftel We Seftels are unusual.
莫莉·塞夫特尔 我们塞夫特尔很不寻常。
Yeah.
是的。
And we've got many stories.
我们有很多故事。
Well, I suppose Harold told you-- I don't want to go over it-- his association with Mandela.
嗯，我想哈罗德已经告诉过你了——我不想重述——他与曼德拉的关系。
Did he tell you?
他告诉你了吗？
So here we are with my long-lost family.
现在我们和失散多年的家人在一起了。
Sitting around a big table piled with lasagna and fresh baked bread, are Harold Seftel, his sisters Dolly and Molly Seftel, Dolly's son Louis, and Rich and I.
哈罗德·塞夫特尔、他的姐妹多莉和莫莉·塞夫特尔、多莉的儿子路易斯、里奇和我围坐在一张堆满烤宽面条和新鲜出炉的面包的大桌子旁。
They reminded me of my relatives back is Schenectady.
他们让我想起了我在斯克内克塔迪的亲戚。
Josh looks a lot like Louis.
乔什看起来很像路易斯。
It was easy to believe they were related.
人们很容易相信他们是相关的。
Nevertheless, we spent several long hours around dinner trying to prove it.
尽管如此，我们还是在晚餐时花了几个小时试图证明这一点。
Now, that's my father Louie.
现在，那是我父亲路易。
Josh Seftel That's Louie, the little boy in the picture?
乔什·塞夫特尔 那是照片中的小男孩路易？
That's right.
这是正确的。
Yes.
是的。
Josh Seftel And then Uncle Borach is him?
乔什·塞夫特尔 那么博拉赫叔叔就是他吗？
They pulled out some old photos, including that turn-of-the-century photograph that every Jewish family has.
他们拿出了一些旧照片，包括每个犹太家庭都有的那张世纪之交的照片。
It's black and white, ragged at the edges, with a neatly posed family.
它是黑白的，边缘参差不齐，有一个姿势整齐的家庭。
The father in this picture had a thick, white beard, heavy eyelids, and a black-brimmed hat.
照片中的父亲留着浓密的白胡子，厚重的眼睑，戴着一顶黑边帽子。
He was probably my great uncle.
他可能是我的曾叔叔。
Yes, well, he was very smart.
是的，嗯，他非常聪明。
Apparently, he was a ladies' man.
显然，他是一位女汉子。
Oh, really?
哦真的吗？
Dolly Seftel Yes.
多莉·塞夫特尔 是的。
He had lots of ladies.
他有很多女人。
In fact--
事实上——
There's something about meeting distant relatives so far from home.
见到远离家乡的远方亲戚，总有一种感觉。
There's this immediate bond that's basic and powerful, this feeling like you're all players on the same team, even though you've just met.
这是一种基本而强大的直接联系，这种感觉就像你们都是同一支球队的球员，即使你们刚刚认识。
But at the same time, mainly because Rich was there with me, I was nervous and wanted to know what the people around the dinner table had done during apartheid.
但与此同时，主要是因为里奇和我在一起，我很紧张，想知道饭桌上的人们在种族隔离期间做了什么。
It's embarrassing to think about now, but I asked them repeatedly to talk about those years.
现在想起来都不好意思，但我一再请他们讲讲那些年。
At first, they were reluctant to discuss it, but finally they did.
起初，他们不愿意讨论这个问题，但最后还是讨论了。
I was relieved to find out that Harold, a tall, lean, 60-year-old with squinty eyes, not only knows Nelson Mandela, he's one of his doctors.
哈罗德是一位身材高大、精瘦、眯着眼睛的 60 岁老人，我很欣慰地发现他不仅认识纳尔逊·曼德拉，而且还是他的医生之一。
After Mandela came out of prison, he invited Harold and his kids for lunch.
曼德拉出狱后，邀请哈罗德和他的孩子们共进午餐。
During apartheid, Molly was active in a group called The Black Sash, which picketed outside the court buildings.
在种族隔离期间，莫莉活跃于一个名为“黑腰带”的组织，该组织在法院大楼外设置纠察队。
At the end of the day, what did we do?
归根结底，我们做了什么？
I mean, it's not that we rioted in the streets or that we--
我的意思是，这并不是我们在街上发生骚乱，也不是我们——
But I mean, look at you.
但我的意思是，看看你。
You only worked in black hospitals, you wouldn't--
你只在黑人医院工作，你不会——
I would not-- I worked in a black hospital.
我不会——我在一家黑人医院工作。
And look, I suppose I did a little bit of good--
听着，我想我做了一点好事——
I mean, you changed the attitude of students towards black people.
我的意思是，你改变了学生对黑人的态度。
And he was--
而他是——
But I can't really describe myself as an activist.
但我无法真正将自己描述为一名活动家。
Let's be honest.
说实话。
Yeah, but your daughter was an activist.
是的，但你女儿是一名活动家。
Yes, but my children.
是的，但是我的孩子们。
I think I would say my children.
我想我会说我的孩子们。
It turns out, Harold's son David used to drive around giving medical care to black activists who were too scared to go into the state hospitals.
事实证明，哈罗德的儿子大卫曾经开车四处为那些不敢去州立医院的黑人活动人士提供医疗服务。
Harold's daughter Lisa is a member of Mandela's party, the ANC.
哈罗德的女儿丽莎是曼德拉政党非国大的成员。
She was arrested and imprisoned for several months during the struggle and had to go into hiding underground for years.
她在斗争期间被捕入狱数月，并不得不躲藏在地下多年。
For a while, Lisa's Aunt Dolly and Dolly's son Louis, who are less political, let her stay at their house.
有一段时间，丽莎的姨妈多莉和多莉的儿子路易斯对政治不太感兴趣，让她住在他们家。
Yes, '86, when we went to Israel, that's when she stayed and moved in here with the ANC.
是的，86 年，当我们去以色列时，她就留下来并搬到这里与非国大一起生活。
That's a great story.
这是一个很棒的故事。
During that year, because she needed a place to hide, we said that she could stay here and she could run whatever she wants to here.
那一年，因为她需要一个地方躲起来，我们就说她可以留在这里，她想在这里做什么就做什么。
Because it was safe, it was suburbia, it wasn't where the activists hang out in Yeoville.
因为这里很安全，是郊区，不是约维尔活动人士常去的地方。
So this was a great cover for her.
所以这对她来说是一个很好的掩护。
So she stretched out and she spread out by the pool.
于是她伸了个懒腰，在泳池边摊开。
All the ANC communists just laid out by the pool.
所有非国大共产党人都躺在泳池边。
We don't know that, Louis.
我们不知道，路易斯。
Louis Seftel We know from Joseph, our servant.
路易斯·塞夫特尔 我们从我们的仆人约瑟夫那里认识的。
He's from Malau.
他来自马劳。
He has worked for us for 35 years.
他已经为我们工作了 35 年。
And Joseph would tell us that every day he would cook for them.
约瑟夫会告诉我们，他每天都会为他们做饭。
And he would bring them meals.
他会给他们送饭菜。
And he would serve them as they were writing their newsletters and their propaganda.
当他们撰写时事通讯和宣传时，他会为他们服务。
Even though Louis seemed to have some problems with the ANC, Harold knew Mandela, Lisa was in the ANC, Molly was protesting in the streets.
尽管路易斯似乎与非国大有一些问题，但哈罗德认识曼德拉，丽莎是非国大的成员，莫莉正在街头抗议。
As far as I was concerned, my family passed the test.
就我而言，我的家人通过了测试。
My fear that they would be a bunch of white supremacists was put to rest and I felt relieved.
我对他们会成为一群白人至上主义者的恐惧得到了缓解，我感到如释重负。
I felt uncomfortable.
我感到不舒服。
Dolly and Louis got this nervous, self-congratulatory tone when they talked to me about some of this stuff.
当多莉和路易斯跟我谈论这些事情时，他们的语气充满了紧张和沾沾自喜。
And we're very unique.
我们非常独特。
First of all, we're one of the few white families that's got a black child in the family.
首先，我们是少数几个有黑人孩子的白人家庭之一。
I mean, I'm the aunt of this-- and not many Jewish families have got black children.
我的意思是，我是这个的阿姨——而且没有多少犹太家庭有黑人孩子。
In fact, I don't think there are any other Jewish families.
事实上，我不认为还有其他犹太家庭。
And there's one family, but they adopted the black child.
还有一个家庭，但他们收养了黑人孩子。
It was just one of those situations where you never forget you're the only black person in the room.
这只是你永远不会忘记自己是房间里唯一的黑人的情况之一。
After eating, Louis took us on a short tour of their estate.
吃完饭后，路易斯带我们参观了他们的庄园。
We saw their expensive bedrooms, pools, Jacuzzis, and finally, tucked around the back of the house, was the servants' quarters, which consisted of a tiny main room with four beds and a closet-sized bathroom.
我们看到了他们昂贵的卧室、游泳池、按摩浴缸，最后，隐藏在房子后面的是仆人的宿舍，其中包括一个带四张床的小主房间和一个壁橱大小的浴室。
One worker was in the room at the time watching a dim black-and-white TV.
当时，一名工人正在房间里观看昏暗的黑白电视。
Beside his head on the wall was a photocopy of a game board.
墙上他的头旁边有一张游戏板的复印件。
Louis told us that this was a lottery game.
路易斯告诉我们这是一场彩票游戏。
If you picked the right square, you won the pot for that week.
如果您选择了正确的方格，您就赢得了该周的底池。
I asked him who played.
我问他谁演的。
He pointed to the servant and said in a patronizing tone, that all of "them" do.
他指着仆人，用一种居高临下的语气说道，“他们”都是如此。
The servant shook his head to say that he did not play, but Louis repeated that "all blacks played."
仆人摇摇头说他没有上场，但路易斯重复说“全是黑人上场”。
Later, there was this awkward moment-- awkward for me, anyway-- when Dolly and Louis were talking about Harold's daughter, Lisa.
后来，有一个尴尬的时刻——无论如何，对我来说很尴尬——当多莉和路易斯谈论哈罗德的女儿丽莎时。
But she would always say that the blacks in the ANC were always--
但她总是说非国大中的黑人总是——
But that was the-- often you won't find, she doesn't criticize much, but she did say that the blacks, the boyfriends were not faithful.
但那是——通常你不会发现，她并没有批评太多，但她确实说黑人、男朋友不忠诚。
They had lots of women.
他们有很多女人。
And even the man that she's had the baby with, he's got a child.
即使是和她生孩子的男人，他也有孩子。
But I hope that he's faithful to her.
但我希望他对她忠诚。
Well, I don't know how she meant it, but that sweeping statement about what all blacks are like, all blacks are unfaithful, that did it for me.
好吧，我不知道她的意思是什么，但是关于所有黑人都是什么样的、所有黑人都不忠的笼统声明对我来说很重要。
That let me know who they were.
这让我知道他们是谁。
I'm saying I went over to that family and I felt tension because of a reason.
我是说我去了那个家庭，由于某种原因我感到紧张。
That's what I'm saying.
这就是我所说的。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I don't quite understand what was tangibly so harsh about--
我不太明白为什么这么严厉——
Are you serious?
你是认真的吗？
Josh Seftel Back at the hotel, we talked about dinner.
乔希·塞夫特尔 回到酒店，我们讨论了晚餐。
It's just the first time that I had seen white settlers talking about blacks and their domestic help and who they keep around.
这是我第一次看到白人定居者谈论黑人和他们的家庭佣工以及他们身边的人。
And it was just I didn't realize how even the most liberal whites aren't necessarily the most-- they're proud that they have Lisa in their family because that way they can say that they are, in fact, the most liberal whites.
只是我没有意识到，即使是最自由的白人也不一定是最自由的——他们为家里有丽莎而感到自豪，因为这样他们就可以说自己实际上是最自由的白人。
It's almost like you don't want to like them.
这几乎就像你不想喜欢他们一样。
Pfft.
噗。
I'm serious.
我是认真的。
I did not go in there not wanting to like them.
我没有进去，因为我不想喜欢他们。
But I definitely felt tense.
但我确实感到紧张。
And I didn't know why I felt tense.
而且我不知道为什么我感到紧张。
And I started to feel bad, and I started not wanting to be there.
我开始感觉很糟糕，我开始不想去那里。
You missed it, though.
不过你错过了。
When you left the room and it was just all of us in the room, we had nothing to talk about.
当你离开房间时，房间里只有我们所有人，我们无话可说。
They didn't want to talk to me at all.
他们根本不想和我说话。
I mean, there was noticeable silence, and there was nothing going on.
我的意思是，周围一片寂静，什么也没有发生。
You honestly believe that most white South African families are more liberal or as liberal as them?
您真的相信大多数南非白人家庭都更自由或像他们一样自由吗？
No!
不！
See, I didn't say that.
你看，我没这么说。
I said exactly what I said.
我说的正是我所说的。
I went and I saw and that was the reality and I felt, and that's what happened to me.
我去了，我看到了，这就是现实，我感受到了，这就是发生在我身上的事情。
Period.
时期。
OK.
好的。
Josh Seftel You want to fight more?
乔什·塞夫特尔（Josh Seftel）你想打更多吗？
Hm?
嗯？
I guess I'm saying that-- I don't know.
我想我是这么说的——我不知道。
I mean, I was pleasantly surprised that they were less racist than I could ever have expected.
我的意思是，我很惊喜地发现他们的种族主义程度比我想象的要少。
Well, did you hear what I'm saying?
嗯，你听到我说的话了吗？
You're saying that because they were less racist than we thought they were going to be, that's good.
你是说，因为他们的种族主义程度比我们想象的要少，这很好。
And yes, that is good.
是的，那很好。
But I'm still allowed to be upset about it.
但我仍然可以为此感到不安。
And I am, in fact, upset about it.
事实上，我对此感到不安。
And you know what it's like?
你知道那是什么样子吗？
It's exactly like America.
这和美国一模一样。
There's an underlying tension, and people want to be friends and all of that.
有一种潜在的紧张气氛，人们想成为朋友等等。
But on the underside, they're all just [BLEEP] dicks.
但从本质上来说，他们都是[BLEEP]混蛋。
This is where we live.
这就是我们住的地方。
This is our milieu.
这就是我们的环境。
There's a wonderful park here.
这里有一个很棒的公园。
Rich needed a break from my family.
里奇需要离开我的家人休息一下。
So when Molly came to pick us up for breakfast, I went alone.
所以当莫莉来接我们吃早餐时，我一个人去了。
She gave me a driving tour of the neighborhood.
她带我开车游览了附近地区。
OK, now in this house-- let me show you-- in this house, this lady was attacked.
好吧，现在在这所房子里——让我告诉你——在这所房子里，这位女士遭到了袭击。
They jumped over that fence and beat her up.
他们跳过栅栏并殴打了她。
I'll show you where another person was murdered.
我会告诉你另一个人被谋杀的地方
We drove through peaceful, leafy neighborhoods with big houses.
我们开车穿过宁静、绿树成荫的街区，那里有大房子。
But almost every house was surrounded by a high fence and barbed wire.
但几乎每栋房子都被高高的栅栏和铁丝网包围着。
One neighborhood had a manned checkpoint to keep people out who didn't belong.
一个社区设有一个有人值守的检查站，以将不属于这里的人拒之门外。
Another had armed security guards patrolling the tree-lined streets on bicycle.
另一个地方有武装保安骑着自行车在绿树成荫的街道上巡逻。
We drove past an area that looked like a golf course with a neatly manicured lawn.
我们开车经过一个看起来像高尔夫球场的区域，有修剪整齐的草坪。
And right by the curb, half-hidden by the shrubbery, were maybe half a dozen black people, sitting and laying on the ground.
就在路边，半打半隐藏在灌木丛中，大约有六个黑人，坐在地上，躺在地上。
In this bush here, the people squat.
这里的这片灌木丛里，人们蹲着。
Anywhere where there's water, the homeless squat.
凡是有水的地方，无家可归的人就蹲着。
That's amazing, because this looks like a very well-off neighborhood, and right on the edge, there are squatters.
这太神奇了，因为这看起来是一个非常富裕的社区，而就在边缘，有擅自占地者。
When my daughter Louise was here, there was a ring at our intercom.
当我女儿路易丝在这里时，我们的对讲机响起了铃声。
And I looked through the window, and I said "There's one of these squatters." I said, "Don't open the door." She says, "Tsk, Mommy."
我向窗外望去，说道：“有一个擅自占地者。”我说：“别开门。”她说：“哎呀，妈妈。”
So she said, "Yes?" He said, "Please Madam, please.
于是她说：“是吗？”他说：“求求你了，女士，求你了。”
I want some bread." So I said, "Don't give it to him because he'll send hundreds here.
我想要一些面包。”所以我说，“不要给他，因为他会派数百人来这里。
And your mother will be killed.
你的母亲也会被杀。
And leave him alone.
并让他独自一人。
He'll go and tell the others.
他会去告诉其他人。
You don't give him anything!" So I had just baked some bread, I made sandwiches.
你什么都不给他！”所以我刚烤了一些面包，做了三明治。
And I said, "Louise, I'm warning you.
我说：“路易斯，我警告你。
You'll find your mother dead."
你会发现你的母亲死了。”
But she went on, and she put lettuce and tomatoes and cheese.
但她继续说，她放了生菜、西红柿和奶酪。
And I said, "Louise, he's going to tell all the others.
我说：“路易斯，他会告诉其他所有人。
And you'll see.
你会看到的。
It'll be terrible.
那就太可怕了。
Leave it.
留下它。
Don't do it.
不要这样做。
Don't do it." And she walks up to the gate, and he says, "Oh, Madam!
别这么做。”她走到门口，他说：“哦，女士！
God bless you." And she said, "And don't you ever dare come here again!" And he jumped back.
上帝保佑你。”她说：“你以后再也不敢来这里了！”他跳了回来。
And do you know what?
你知道吗？
The next day they were ringing again.
第二天，电话铃声再次响起。
We were back at her house.
我们回到了她家。
She pulled her car up to the big gates and punched in a code.
她把车停到大门前，输入了密码。
Metal doors slowly parted and we drove in.
金属门慢慢打开，我们开车进去。
And you know how we used to live before?
你知道我们以前是怎样生活的吗？
We had no fence.
我们没有栅栏。
Nobody had fences.
没有人有栅栏。
Crime has gotten worse since the end of apartheid, but it's not as big an increase as most people think.
自种族隔离结束以来，犯罪率变得更加严重，但增幅并不像大多数人想象的那么大。
Since 1994, the murder has actually dropped 14%.
自1994年以来，谋杀案实际上下降了14%。
Car thefts have dropped.
汽车盗窃案有所下降。
Home burglaries have increased only 11%.
入室盗窃案仅增加 11%。
The biggest increase in crime is non-residential robberies, which is up 50%, and rape, which is up 36%.
犯罪增幅最大的是非住宅抢劫，上升了 50%，而强奸则上升了 36%。
What's happening is that crime in the white areas is now becoming the same as it's always been in the black townships.
正在发生的事情是，白人地区的犯罪率现在变得与黑人城镇的犯罪率一样。
Josh and I weren't getting along so well since the fight in the hotel room.
自从在酒店房间打架以来，乔什和我相处得不太好。
In the 10 years we have known each other, we had never really fought before.
我们认识10年了，从来没有真正吵过架。
So we decided the best thing for our friendship would be to get away from his family and out of Johannesburg.
所以我们决定，对我们的友谊最好的办法就是离开他的家人，离开约翰内斯堡。
We rented a tiny Volkswagen and set out to see more of the new South Africa.
我们租了一辆小型大众汽车，出发去参观更多新南非。
We drove for hours over green, rolling hills.
我们在连绵起伏的绿色山丘上开了几个小时的车。
The deeper we got into the country, the fewer and fewer white faces we saw.
我们越深入这个国家，看到的白人面孔就越少。
Every so often, we'd see a cluster of pink and aquamarine huts on a hillside, a village.
时不时地，我们会在山坡上看到一群粉色和碧绿色的小屋，一个村庄。
Finally, we stopped at one.
最后，我们停在一处。
There's a group of guys about our age sitting in an old car seat next to one of the huts.
有一群与我们年龄相仿的人坐在一间小屋旁边的旧汽车座椅上。
They looked like they were waiting for something to happen.
他们看起来就像是在等待着什么事情发生。
They didn't seem happy with the new South Africa.
他们似乎对新南非并不满意。
They promised us money.
他们答应给我们钱。
They promised us jobs.
他们答应给我们工作。
There's nothing that ever have happened like that.
从来没有发生过这样的事情。
All three men were unemployed.
三个人都失业了。
For Wayne, a tall, thin man who covered his shaved head with a black fedora, told us that the new government had finally brought electricity to the village just that week.
韦恩是一个又高又瘦的男人，用一顶黑色软呢帽遮住了光头，他告诉我们，新政府终于在那一周给村子带来了电力。
They bring us electricity first.
他们首先为我们带来电力。
Why not water first?
为什么不先浇水呢？
Why didn't they ask us "What thing do you want first?" Are we going to eat electricity?
他们为什么不问我们“你首先想要什么？”我们要吃电吗？
Are we going to drink electricity?
我们要喝电吗？
Where are we going to get money to buy this electricity if we are not employed?
如果我们没有工作，我们从哪里得到钱来购买电力呢？
They invited us into their shebeen for beers.
他们邀请我们去他们的shebeen喝啤酒。
They asked us questions about America, about our girlfriends, about the federal system, how we liked people at the office.
他们问了我们一些关于美国、关于我们女朋友、关于联邦制度、关于我们如何喜欢办公室里的人的问题。
They told us a story about why black men's noses are flat and white men's noses are long.
他们给我们讲了一个故事，为什么黑人的鼻子是平的，而白人的鼻子是长的。
They asked me if I was a relative of Michael Jackson.
他们问我是否是迈克尔·杰克逊的亲戚。
And they complained about the new South Africa.
他们抱怨新南非。
Wayne said if he were president, he'd enact a much more radical redistribution than Nelson Mandela has.
韦恩表示，如果他是总统，他将实施比纳尔逊·曼德拉更为激进的再分配政策。
What I should do-- all those white men's area, white men's toilet, I'll do it upside-down.
我应该做的——所有那些白人男性区域、白人厕所，我都会倒过来做。
If this was the black man's toilet, then that is the white man's toilet.
如果这是黑人的厕所，那么那就是白人的厕所。
I'll take the whites there and tell them to come here in black men's toilets and then I'll write "Whites only." Yeah?
我会把白人带到那里，告诉他们到黑人厕所来，然后我会写上“仅限白人”。是的？
The only thing maybe that should be the [UNINTELLIGIBLE].
唯一可能应该是[难以理解]。
It's in the blood now.
现在它已融入血液。
It's in the blood.
它存在于血液中。
Sitting in the shebeen, Josh and I were more relaxed with each other.
坐在希宾里，乔希和我彼此更加放松。
There's nothing like a little talk about apartheid to make you forget your personal problems.
没有什么比谈论一下种族隔离更能让你忘记你的个人问题了。
One of the guys had an old accordion out on the car seat.
其中一个人在汽车座椅上放了一把旧手风琴。
I asked him to play a song and he did.
我请他演奏一首歌，他照做了。
"A Roman hymn," he told us.
“一首罗马赞美诗，”他告诉我们。
For these guys, the new South Africa was a lot like the old South Africa.
对于这些人来说，新南非很像旧南非。
They were still without water and work, and they still felt powerless.
他们仍然没有水，没有工作，仍然感到无能为力。
Apartheid had done more than just separate the races.
种族隔离不仅仅将种族分开。
It had created a lasting sense of black inferiority.
它造成了黑人持久的自卑感。
The blacks, if they see a small boy of white meat, they think that small boy of white meat is-- I forgot-- is bigger than them.
黑人，如果他们看到一个白肉小男孩，他们会认为那个白肉小男孩——我忘了——比他们大。
And they've got money, and they've got whatever.
他们有钱，他们什么都有。
We always see ourselves as inferior as [?
我们总是认为自己低人一等[?
what we ?] [?
我们什么？] [？
have told, ?] the doctor and the system of [?
已经告诉过，？]医生和[？的系统
his.
他的。
?] That thing will not end.
？] 那件事不会结束。
On the way out of the village, we ran into three teenage village girls.
出村的路上，我们遇到了三个十几岁的村姑。
One of them wore a thick layer of white face paint, like a mask.
其中一个人脸上涂了一层厚厚的白色颜料，就像戴着面具一样。
She said it was for pimples.
她说这是为了祛痘。
We were talking, and they were teaching us how to say hello in Xhosa.
我们正在聊天，他们教我们如何用科萨语打招呼。
And then the girl with face paint turned and looked us over.
然后那个脸上涂着颜料的女孩转过身来打量着我们。
She looked at Rich's skin, which was a few shades later than her own.
她看着里奇的皮肤，比她的肤色晚了几个色号。
Then see looked at mine, which was a few shades lighter still.
然后看看我的，颜色还浅了一些。
Then she looked at both of us.
然后她看着我们俩。
"Are you brothers?" She asked us.
“你们是兄弟吗？”她问我们。
Our trip to South Africa continues with the South African Woodstock and an organization that's half Nancy Reagan's "Just Say No" and half terrorist group.
我们的南非之行继续前往南非伍德斯托克音乐节，这个组织一半是南希·里根的“Just Say No”，一半是恐怖组织。
That's in a minute, from Public Radio International, when our program continues.
稍后，国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life .
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, of course, we choose a theme.
当然，每周我们的节目都会选择一个主题。
Usually we bring you a variety of different stories on that theme.
通常我们会为您带来有关该主题的各种不同的故事。
But today, we're devoting our whole show to just one story about South Africa's emerging multiracial society and about America's.
但今天，我们整个节目只讲述一个关于南非新兴多种族社会和美国社会的故事。
If you just tuned in, Rich Robinson and Josh Seftel are best friends.
如果您刚刚收听，里奇·罗宾逊和乔什·塞夫特尔是最好的朋友。
One's black, one's white.
一个是黑的，一个是白的。
Rich is a New Yorker.
里奇是纽约人。
Josh is from Boston.
乔希来自波士顿。
They traveled together to the new South Africa not long after Nelson Mandela took the president's office to meet some people who Josh thinks might be distant relatives of his and to see what's changed since Nelson Mandela began his experiment at creating a multiracial society, and what hasn't changed.
纳尔逊·曼德拉就任总统后不久，他们就一起前往新南非，会见了一些乔什认为可能是他的远亲的人，看看自纳尔逊·曼德拉开始创建多种族社会的实验以来发生了什么变化，什么没有改变。
What does that mean?
这意味着什么？
Josh Seftel That means I don't like you.
乔什·塞夫特尔 这意味着我不喜欢你。
Boers are the descendants of Dutch settlers in South Africa.
布尔人是南非荷兰定居者的后裔。
And the stereotype is they're farmers, they're racists, they're African rednecks.
人们的刻板印象是他们是农民、种族主义者、非洲乡巴佬。
They're the group of whites who actually voted for apartheid and built the apartheid state.
他们是一群实际上投票支持种族隔离并建立种族隔离国家的白人。
And Rich had become obsessed with them.
里奇已经对它们着迷了。
Every white person was suspect, especially in the countryside.
每个白人都受到怀疑，尤其是在乡村。
Actually, yeah, we have.
事实上，是的，我们有。
On dirt roads, the dudes driving cars with the buzz cuts and crazy-looking eyes, tanned skin.
在土路上，那些开着短发、眼神疯狂、皮肤晒黑的家伙们。
Don't you think those are Boers?
你不认为那些人是布尔人吗？
Don't you think they look like that?
你不觉得他们看起来像那样吗？
The little buzz-cut guy?
那个短发的小家伙？
I guess I don't-- I'm not looking for Boers.
我想我不——我不是在寻找布尔人。
I only notice it when you say it.
当你这么说的时候我才注意到。
The fact is, I came to South Africa hoping to confront real racists.
事实上，我来到南非是希望对抗真正的种族主义者。
In America now, racism is like this cloud that's still surrounding us, but you can't touch it or see it.
现在在美国，种族主义就像这片云，仍然围绕着我们，但你摸不到它，也看不到它。
You just feel it when you go to a party or when you go into a store.
当你去参加聚会或走进商店时你就会感觉到。
But in South Africa, white oppression officially just ended two years ago.
但在南非，白人压迫两年前才正式结束。
I came here thinking it would be like seeing what it was like during the bus boycotts in the '60s or during the Civil War.
我来到这里，心想这就像看看 60 年代抵制公交车或内战期间的情况一样。
I came here looking for the enemy.
我来这里是为了寻找敌人。
Which didn't bother me, as long as Rich wasn't looking for my family to be that enemy.
这并不困扰我，只要里奇不希望我的家人成为敌人。
Boer.
波尔。
Josh Seftel That's good.
乔什·塞夫特尔 那很好。
That's good.
那挺好的。
Boer.
波尔。
I can't do it.
我做不到。
Josh Seftel Do Boer.
乔什·塞夫特尔·多·波尔。
Boer.
波尔。
Boer.
波尔。
Josh Seftel We had read about a place called Rustler's Valley in our guidebook.
乔什·塞夫特尔（Josh Seftel） 我们在旅游指南中读到过一个叫做“窃贼谷”的地方。
It said that Rustler's was one of the most progressive places in the country, maybe on the continent, a kind of ongoing South African Woodstock.
据说，Rustler's 是这个国家（也许是整个非洲大陆）最进步的地方之一，就像正在进行的南非伍德斯托克音乐节一样。
When we got there, there were lots of hippie-looking people with long beards, toting aboriginal instruments and bongos.
当我们到达那里时，有很多嬉皮士模样的人，留着长胡子，拿着原住民乐器和手鼓。
The horticulture there looked like something out of a Dr. Seuss book.
那里的园艺看起来就像苏斯博士书中的东西。
On one hillside, it looked like someone was holding a VW van convention.
在一个山坡上，看起来有人正在举办一场大众货车大会。
On another hillside, we joined a group of people who were in the middle of experiencing "a sound journey."
在另一个山坡上，我们加入了一群正在经历“声音之旅”的人。
They all sat in a circle with their eyes closed and their legs crossed.
他们都闭着眼睛，盘腿坐成一圈。
In the middle of the circle was a man with a bunch of instruments.
圆圈中央有一个拿着一堆仪器的男人。
He was blowing on a didgeridoo.
他正在吹迪吉里杜管。
When he stopped, they went around the circle talking about how the sound journey had made them feel.
当他停下来时，他们绕了一圈，谈论声音之旅给他们带来的感受。
It was an amazing experience.
这是一次奇妙的经历。
I actually still feel quite out of my body, really.
事实上，我仍然感觉身体很不舒服，真的。
And thank you for creating the space to help me let go.
感谢您创造空间来帮助我放手。
I'm just feeling incredibly emotional.
我只是感觉非常激动。
I experienced such a movement through, I don't know if it was my bloodstream or my soul.
我经历过这样的感动，我不知道是我的血液还是我的灵魂。
Down by the river, it was like Eden.
河边，就像伊甸园。
There were people swimming naked and horses drinking from water and running wild.
有人裸泳，马饮水狂奔。
A group of two women and two men were passing around reefers the size of small cigars.
两个女人和两个男人正在传递小雪茄大小的冷藏箱。
But most of the action at Rustler's took place around a giant, flaming globe.
但 Rustler’s 的大部分活动都是围绕一个巨大的燃烧的地球仪进行的。
At night, hundreds of kids danced to techno music in the firelight.
晚上，数百名孩子在火光下随着电子音乐起舞。
Next to the dance floor was a pool where nude swimming was encouraged.
舞池旁边有一个游泳池，鼓励裸体游泳。
There was a room called The Passion Pit, with low couches, dim lighting, and intertwined bodies.
有一个叫做“激情坑”的房间，里面有低矮的沙发、昏暗的灯光和纠缠在一起的身体。
There was the tepee village.
那里有一个圆锥形帐篷村。
Rich and I went down there and ran into this guy wearing moccasins, knickers, and a feather headdress.
里奇和我去了那里，遇到了这个穿着鹿皮鞋、短裤、戴着羽毛头饰的家伙。
He rolled a joint and talked to us about Rustler's philosophy.
他卷了一根大麻烟，向我们讲述了 Rustler 的哲学。
I very much believe that psychedelics have been around since the beginning of time.
我非常相信迷幻药从一开始就存在。
They've aided in man's evolution.
它们帮助了人类的进化。
And I think they can take us towards the future, certainly in dissolving personal boundaries and ideals of who we are and what we are and who we are about.
我认为它们可以带领我们走向未来，当然可以消除我们是谁、我们是什么以及我们是谁的个人界限和理想。
So smoke a lot of dope.
所以吸很多毒品。
A lot of people in our government are smokers.
我们政府中的很多人都是吸烟者。
They were left-wing revolutionaries and radicals.
他们是左翼革命者和激进分子。
I've personally had conversations with this deputy staff president about hemp and the role it will play in regenerating rural economies.
我亲自与这位副参谋长就大麻及其在振兴农村经济中发挥的作用进行了交谈。
We had somehow wandered into a techno version of America in the '60s.
我们不知何故走进了 60 年代的技术版美国。
But if America's '60s were about rebellion, it wasn't clear from anyone we talked to who or what, exactly, Rustler's meant to be rebelling against.
但如果美国的 60 年代充满了叛逆，我们采访的任何人都不清楚 Rustler 到底要反抗谁或什么。
In the smoky bar near the dance floor, we met the founder of Rustler's.
在舞池附近烟雾缭绕的酒吧里，我们见到了 Rustler's 的创始人。
He's 40-something with a pony tail, beard, and an African wrap that covered his hairy legs to the knees.
他四十多岁，扎着马尾辫，留着胡须，一条非洲围巾遮住了他毛茸茸的双腿，一直到膝盖。
His name was Frick.
他的名字叫弗里克。
He explained the enemy.
他解释了敌人。
You see, the power structure that we're rebelling against is the American government.
你看，我们反抗的权力结构是美国政府。
We see them misleading the whole world down a corporate dead end into neomodernism.
我们看到他们误导全世界进入新现代主义的企业死胡同。
They're leaving no space for society to develop.
他们没有给社会留下发展的空间。
We believe we need to return to Shamanism or return to magic or return to values of the earth, an understanding that was held by most ethnic people.
我们认为，我们需要回归萨满教、魔法或地球价值观，这是大多数少数民族所持有的理解。
So we see our source of inspiration as being the ethnic peoples that the corporate world hasn't yet [BLEEP] up.
因此，我们将灵感的源泉视为企业界尚未[BLEEP]起来的少数民族。
So the American government was the enemy, and the solution was the ethnic peoples.
所以美国政府是敌人，而解决方案是少数民族。
The only problem was, there were no ethnic peoples there.
唯一的问题是，那里没有少数民族。
In a country made up of Zulus, Ndebele, Sotho, and Xhosa, a country with 12 official native languages, besides the kitchen workers and occasional gardener, I was the only black person at Rustler's.
在一个由祖鲁语、恩德贝勒语、索托语和科萨语组成的国家，一个拥有 12 种官方母语的国家，除了厨房工人和偶尔的园丁外，我是 Rustler 餐厅里唯一的黑人。
Josh and I did a little informal survey.
乔什和我做了一些非正式的调查。
Why no black people?
为什么没有黑人？
It's anyone.
是任何人。
Whoever wants to come can come.
谁想来就可以来。
And maybe black people just aren't into it, you know?
也许黑人只是不喜欢它，你知道吗？
There is plenty.
有很多。
They come up here to work and clean and do the gardens.
他们来这里工作、打扫卫生和打理花园。
They're not into the same thing we're into.
他们与我们的兴趣不同。
Black people don't like raves and rave parties and I don't see that as a bad thing.
黑人不喜欢狂欢和狂欢派对，我不认为这是一件坏事。
We have a very good rapport with them.
我们与他们关系非常融洽。
When we go to town, they all wave at us.
当我们进城时，他们都向我们招手。
And they're friendly.
他们很友好。
Apartheid takes a lot of time to dissolve.
种族隔离需要很长时间才能消除。
And even if you want to cross the barriers, they're not that easily crossed because they've always been separate.
即使你想跨越障碍，它们也不是那么容易跨越的，因为它们一直是分开的。
It's a pity.
真遗憾。
Rustler's Valley wasn't really a part of the new South Africa.
窃贼谷实际上并不是新南非的一部分。
It was more like a theme park for recreational drug users, a summer camp escape for young, white South Africans where they didn't have to think about the crime rates or the futures in this country.
它更像是一个供娱乐性吸毒者使用的主题公园，一个为年轻的南非白人提供的夏令营避难所，在那里他们不必考虑这个国家的犯罪率或未来。
After two hazy days, when we finally got back into our room, we found a young, blond-haired woman sprawled across one of our beds rolling a joint in the bedspread.
阴霾的两天后，当我们终于回到房间时，我们发现一位年轻的金发女子躺在我们的一张床上，在床罩上卷着一根大麻烟。
It was 5:00 in the morning.
当时是早上 5:00。
We'd had enough.
我们已经受够了。
We asked her to leave.
我们请她离开。
Back in the States, I almost never notice race.
回到美国，我几乎从不注意到种族。
But since I'd been in South Africa, I found myself noticing it whenever Rich and I walked into a room.
但自从我到了南非，每当我和里奇走进一个房间时，我发现自己都会注意到这一点。
I'd look around and think, are there any black people here?
我环顾四周，想，这里有黑人吗？
I worried he'd be uncomfortable.
我担心他会不舒服。
Do you feel like they're treating you differently than they're treating me as a white person?
你觉得他们对待你的方式和对待我作为白人的方式不同吗？
I don't know.
我不知道。
Rich Robinson It's that expectation.
里奇·罗宾逊（Rich Robinson）正是这样的期望。
I walked in the main room.
我走进主房间。
They had a couple people behind the desk.
他们的桌子后面有几个人。
And two or three people were hanging out.
还有两三个人在闲逛。
And they were having at least two conversations, possibly three.
他们至少进行了两次谈话，可能是三次。
You know, different groups of people.
你知道，不同的人群。
Not many people, six to eight people.
人不多，六到八个人。
And I walked in the room, closed the door, and everyone's quiet.
我走进房间，关上门，每个人都很安静。
Literally, I mean, come on.
从字面上看，我的意思是，来吧。
Two or three conversations didn't just happen to end at right the exact same moment I walked in the door.
两三场谈话并非恰好在我走进门的同一时刻结束。
But you know, I open my mouth, I say a couple words, I make a joke, and it lightens everything up for them, and they feel, "OK, that's all right.
但你知道，我张开嘴，说几句话，开个玩笑，这让他们的一切都轻松起来，他们觉得，“好吧，没关系。
That's cool."
太酷了。”
But I only am able to do that because I know that if I prove to them that I'm from out of the country, then they'll feel comfortable again, like they're not having-- like, it's something that they can feel cool about.
但我之所以能这么做，是因为我知道，如果我向他们证明我来自国外，那么他们就会再次感到舒服，就像他们没有那样——就像，这是他们可以感到很酷的事情。
Every time I see somebody, I try to talk and make witty jokes so that it's easier.
每次我见到某人时，我都会尝试交谈并讲一些诙谐的笑话，这样会更容易。
In the morning, the sound journey people were at it again.
早上，人们又开始了声音之旅。
They sat cross-legged in a tight circle with their eyes closed.
他们盘腿坐成一个紧密的圆圈，闭着眼睛。
And when the man in the middle swirled his didgeridoo around the head of an entranced, red-haired woman, a steady stream of spit splattered onto her forehead and her eyelids.
当中间的男人用迪吉里杜管在一位着迷的红发女人的头上打转时，一股口水源源不断地溅到了她的前额和眼睑上。
She didn't seem to notice.
她似乎没有注意到。
As we were driving out of Rustler's, someone approached the car and gave us a bulging sandwich bag full of marijuana and a bumper sticker.
当我们驶出 Rustler's 时，有人走近汽车，给了我们一个鼓鼓囊囊的三明治袋，里面装满了大麻和一张保险杠贴纸。
It said, "Pot will save the world."
上面写着：“Pot 将拯救世界。”
Drugs are the fundamental thing.
毒品是根本。
Drugs is the cause of all the other vile things that is happening in our country.
毒品是我们国家发生的所有其他邪恶事情的根源。
In a mosque in Cape Town, we met a group called PAGAD, short for People Against Gangsterism And Drugs.
在开普敦的一座清真寺里，我们遇到了一个名为“PAGAD”的组织，是“反黑帮和毒品人民”的缩写。
They're a little like that group DARE that we have back in the States, except instead of soccer moms, these guys are Islamic fundamentalists.
他们有点像我们在美国的那个敢于敢为的团体，只不过这些人不是足球妈妈，而是伊斯兰原教旨主义者。
[PRAYING] While hundreds of Muslims pray in a huge main hall, we're in a small classroom off to the side.
[祈祷] 当数百名穆斯林在一个巨大的主厅祈祷时，我们却在旁边的一间小教室里。
Sitting across from Josh and I are three PAGAD spokesmen, crammed into tiny desks meant for elementary students.
坐在我和乔什对面的是三位 PAGAD 发言人，他们挤在小学生专用的小桌子里。
Despite the 80-degree weather, they're wearing heavy ski jackets.
尽管天气高达 80 度，他们仍穿着厚重的滑雪服。
They each have their own cellular phones, which interrupt us constantly throughout the interview.
他们每个人都有自己的手机，这在整个采访过程中不断打扰我们。
Their leader is As-Salaam [?
他们的领袖是 As-Salaam [?
Tohfi ?], a giant Indian man with enormous hands.
Tohfi？]，一个有着巨大双手的印度巨人。
He dabs his brow with a light blue terrycloth hanky.
他用浅蓝色的毛圈布手帕擦了擦额头。
If you go to parties tonight, to nightclubs where you go, what is the reality of that is to get drunk, to get zonked out of your minds through some kind of drug.
如果你今晚去参加聚会，去你去的夜总会，现实就是喝醉，通过某种药物让你神志不清。
Is this what we want?
这是我们想要的吗？
Is this what God intended when he created us as human beings?
这是上帝创造我们人类时的意图吗？
God Almighty curses us for these things.
全能的上帝因这些事而咒诅我们。
So we will never have peace in our lives.
所以我们的生活永远不会有平安。
PAGAD is famous for their method of getting people to just say no. They go to a drug dealer's house, pull him into the street, and set him on fire.
PAGAD 因其让人们拒绝的方法而闻名。他们来到一个毒贩的家中，把他拉到街上，然后放火烧了他。
There had been an incident like this six month earlier.
六个月前曾发生过类似事件。
A drug dealer had been burned to death in the street.
一名毒贩在街上被烧死。
And PAGAD felt their part in the incident had been misrepresented in the press.
PAGAD 认为媒体歪曲了他们在这起事件中所扮演的角色。
Their legal adviser, who had been quiet until then, explained PAGAD's side.
在此之前一直保持沉默的法律顾问解释了 PAGAD 的立场。
A group of people went to ask this specific person, "Please, can you stop with your drug dealing?
一群人去问这个特定的人：“拜托，你能停止贩毒吗？
Because the people is suffering." They were met with gunfire from three meters inside the house.
因为人民正在受苦。”他们在屋内三米处遭到枪击。
17 people were shot at from behind bulletproof windows to people standing on a pavement which is two meters wide.
17 人从防弹窗后面向站在两米宽人行道上的人开枪。
So people was firing three meters into a crowd of about 5,000.
因此，人们向大约 5,000 人的人群射击三米远。
5,000 people.
5,000 人。
As I sat there imagining what I would do if 5,000 people showed up at my doorstep, the legal adviser turned to us.
当我坐在那里想象如果 5,000 人出现在我家门口我会做什么时，法律顾问转向我们。
Where were you last night?
昨晚你在哪里？
Josh Seftel Where was I?
乔什·塞夫特尔 我刚才在哪里？
Last night.
昨夜。
Josh Seftel As I fumbled for an answer, [?
乔希·塞夫特尔 当我摸索着寻找答案时，[？
Tohfi ?] explained how drinking, naked dancing, nightclubs, and abortions are all destroying the new South Africa.
托赫菲？]解释了饮酒、裸舞、夜总会和堕胎如何摧毁新南非。
[PRAYING] Outside the mosque, there was a wall of graffiti-- "Kill Jews," "Kill Americans," "Hezbollah." Everywhere we turned in South Africa, people seemed to be looking for quick and easy solutions to massive and complex problems.
[祈祷]清真寺外面有一堵涂鸦墙——“杀死犹太人”、“杀死美国人”、“真主党”。在南非，无论走到哪里，人们似乎都在寻找快速、简单的解决方案来解决巨大而复杂的问题。
Whether that meant belonging to an alternative community or being an anti-drug crusader, killing Americans and burning drug dealers or smoking dope.
无论这意味着属于另类社区，还是成为一名反毒斗士，杀害美国人、烧死毒贩或吸食毒品。
It was time to return to Johannesburg to say goodbye to Josh's family and then escape from South Africa.
是时候返回约翰内斯堡与乔什的家人告别，然后逃离南非了。
We had been getting along fine since we left the Seftels two weeks earlier.
自从两周前离开塞夫特尔以来，我们一直相处得很好。
No fighting.
没有战斗。
But now, with only four hours of highway between us and them, the tension returned.
但现在，我们和他们之间只有四个小时的高速公路路程，紧张气氛又回来了。
I was driving.
我当时正在开车。
Josh and the microphone were facing me.
乔什和麦克风面向我。
They had me cornered.
他们把我逼到了墙角。
I get the sense that when you meet a white person here, you make the assumption that they're racist until proven innocent.
我的感觉是，当你在这里遇到一个白人时，你会假设他们是种族主义者，直到被证明是无辜的。
I don't think whiteys here are automatically racist.
我不认为这里的白人天生就是种族主义者。
I mean, that's what you said before.
我的意思是，这就是你之前所说的。
I'll play the tape for you a little bit later.
稍后我会为你播放磁带。
But you did say that.
但你确实这么说过。
Well, I'm sure that I did not say there are active or inactive racists and there are not two categories.
好吧，我确信我没有说种族主义者有活跃的或不活跃的之分，而且不存在两类。
And we can replay the tape as many times, Mr. Seftel, as we need to.
塞夫特尔先生，我们可以根据需要多次重放磁带。
This was one of those arguments where you just go over the same tiny points over and over again.
这是那些你只是一遍又一遍地讨论相同的小点的争论之一。
I didn't catch on at first.
一开始我没明白。
They all seemed like reasonable questions.
这些问题看起来都是合理的。
But then I realized what he was looking for.
但后来我意识到他在寻找什么。
Josh didn't want my opinion on racism or the innocence of whites.
乔什不想听我对种族主义或白人纯真的看法。
Josh wanted me, as a black person, to admit that his white South African family were the good guys.
乔什希望我，作为一个黑人，承认他的南非白人家庭是好人。
I love round shapes.
我喜欢圆形。
And I built the plan of this house in the shape of a big breast with the fireplace being the nipple, three-dimensionality thrusting through double stories.
我把这座房子的平面设计成一个大乳房的形状，壁炉是乳头，三维空间贯穿双层故事。
We can then have a look at this anthropomorphic, habitable woman!
那么我们就可以看看这个拟人化、可居住的女人了！
Back in Johannesburg, my cousin Louis took us on a tour of his latest masterpiece.
回到约翰内斯堡，我的表弟路易斯带我们参观了他的最新杰作。
Louis is an architect.
路易斯是一位建筑师。
It's a two-story house still under construction.
这是一栋仍在建设中的两层楼房。
It doesn't really look like a huge breast.
它看起来并不像一个巨大的乳房。
It's just got lots of curved walls and curved ceilings and a lot of breasty ornamentation.
它有很多弯曲的墙壁和弯曲的天花板以及很多胸部装饰。
There we are.
我们到了。
So here, have a quick view at this round facade over here.
所以在这里，快速浏览一下这里的圆形立面。
OK.
好的。
Well, let me ask you this.
好吧，让我问你这个。
Why do you put so many breast shapes in your architecture?
为什么你在你的建筑中加入如此多的乳房形状？
Well, I'll tell you why.
好吧，我会告诉你原因。
People have an immediate response.
人们立即做出反应。
I've taken people into my breasts, and they are so moved, and they are so stunned.
我把人们揽入怀中，他们是如此感动，他们如此震惊。
They can't quite work out why they like these spaces.
他们不太明白为什么他们喜欢这些空间。
But they like these space because they feel hugged and encompassed by them.
但他们喜欢这些空间，因为他们感觉被它们拥抱和包围。
It was hard to dislike Louis.
很难不喜欢路易斯。
He was such an entertainer, I don't even think he took himself seriously.
他是如此的一个艺人，我什至不认为他认真对待自己。
In our time in Johannesburg, he took us out, offered to lend us his car, invited friends of his over so we'd have people to meet.
当我们在约翰内斯堡的时候，他带我们出去，主动提出借给我们他的车，邀请他的朋友过来，这样我们就有机会见面。
The more I spent in South Africa, the harder and harder it was for me to tell the good guys from the bad guys.
我在南非花的越多，我就越难区分好人和坏人。
But there were still times I didn't know what to make of people like Louis.
但有时我仍然不知道如何看待像路易斯这样的人。
For instance, camped out in the middle of a half-built house in the rain were at least a half dozen black men who had built a fire in the middle of the living room.
例如，在雨中，至少有六名黑人在雨中在一栋半建成的房子中间露营，他们在客厅中间生了火。
Who are those guys in the rain by the fire?
雨中火边的那些人是谁？
By the fire, these are workers.
火边，这些是工人。
Traditionally in South Africa, the workers live on site.
按照南非的传统，工人们住在现场。
These guys--
这些家伙——
Where do they live?
他们住在哪里？
Louis Seftel They live here.
路易斯·塞夫特尔 他们住在这里。
This is where they live.
这是他们居住的地方。
On the cement floor?
在水泥地上？
Louis Seftel Yeah, they live on the cement floor, and they are the builders of the house.
Louis Seftel 是的，他们住在水泥地板上，他们是房子的建造者。
They're casuals, laborers, they're semi-skilled, they're bricklayers and blasters and stuff.
他们是临时工、体力工、半熟练工、瓦工、爆破工等等。
And they come to-- and what's great about it is they're using the house in the way the house is meant to be used.
他们意识到——最棒的是他们正在以房子应有的方式使用房子。
Except, I'd like them to put the fire inside there, in the fireplace where it was meant to be.
不过，我希望他们把火放在里面，放在壁炉里本来应该放的地方。
But let's go into the lounge.
但让我们去休息室吧。
This is the great lounge.
这是很棒的休息室。
Good evening, gentlemen.
晚上好，先生们。
Good evening.
晚上好。
How are you?
你好吗？
Good.
好的。
We have a reporter here from America.
我们有一位来自美国的记者。
He's going to tell a wonderful story about this house.
他将讲述一个关于这所房子的精彩故事。
Anyway--
无论如何——
He showed us the kitchen and the bedrooms and the living room and a small servants' quarters attached to the side of the house.
他带我们参观了厨房、卧室、客厅以及位于房子一侧的小仆人宿舍。
And here are the servants' quarters.
这里是仆人的住处。
They have their own little suite and yard.
他们有自己的小套房和院子。
Is it nice in there?
那里好不好？
Louis Seftel Beautiful.
路易斯·塞夫特尔 美丽。
Lovely main bedroom and bathroom and kitchenette.
可爱的主卧室、浴室和小厨房。
Very nice.
很不错。
That's going to be a mainstay of Africa then.
届时这将成为非洲的中流砥柱。
Servants forever.
永远的仆人。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Servants are here in Africa to stay forever.
仆人们将永远留在非洲。
And in fact, we must make them very nice because maybe, in a couple of years, we will move into the servants' quarters and the servants will move into the house.
事实上，我们必须让它们变得非常好，因为也许，几年后，我们将搬进仆人的宿舍，仆人也会搬进房子。
So you must always make them very nice.
所以你必须总是让他们变得非常友善。
Wait, can you say that again?
等等，你能再说一遍吗？
Louis Seftel What I'm saying is that there was in the bylaws of the old South Africa a law that your servants' quarters had to be very small and minimum-sized, and they had to have very high windows not overlooking a public space.
路易斯·塞夫特尔 我想说的是，旧南非的章程中有一条法律规定，仆人的住所必须非常小，而且面积必须最小，而且窗户必须非常高，不能俯瞰公共空间。
Now servants' quarters are being made more luxurious and they're more like a little kind of garden cottage, granny flat kind of thing, because we might have to move into them one day and rent the house after the servants.
现在仆人的住处正在变得更加豪华，它们更像是一种花园小屋，祖母房之类的东西，因为有一天我们可能不得不搬进去，然后在仆人之后租下房子。
On this last visit to Johannesburg, we stayed with my family at Dolly's house.
在最后一次访问约翰内斯堡时，我们和家人住在多莉家。
And this time, they really felt like family.
而这一次，他们真的感觉就像家人一样。
Late one night after Rich went to sleep, I talked with Dolly in the kitchen about the ups and downs of my love life.
一天深夜，里奇入睡后，我在厨房里和多莉谈论了我爱情生活的起起落落。
She urged me to marry a Jewish girl.
她敦促我娶一个犹太女孩。
It was just like talking to any of my relatives.
这就像和我的任何亲戚交谈一样。
When I first got to South Africa, I had been more willing to judge Dolly and the others.
当我第一次到南非时，我更愿意评判多莉和其他人。
But now that I had seen more of the country, I didn't feel that way anymore.
但现在我见识了更多的国家，我就不再有这种感觉了。
I guess at some level, it just didn't feel right to judge family in the same way that judging your parents harshly for having different opinions than you do doesn't feel right.
我想在某种程度上，以与你观点不同而严厉评判父母的方式来评判家庭是不对的。
But Rich wasn't so sure.
但里奇不太确定。
I don't feel skeptical of my family, my relatives here.
我对我的家人、我在这里的亲戚并不感到怀疑。
I think you do.
我想你会的。
I think you feel a little bit skeptical of them.
我想你对他们有点怀疑。
Well, I mean, how couldn't you?
嗯，我是说，你怎么不能呢？
They're rich, they've got bad-ass houses, they've got servants, you know.
他们很富有，他们有破烂的房子，他们有仆人，你知道。
It's like people living in the South that still have domestic slaves.
就像生活在南方的人们仍然有家庭奴隶一样。
I mean, I guess it is a job for somebody, but it just gives you bad reminders of what it was and what was.
我的意思是，我想这对某人来说是一份工作，但它只会让你想起它曾经是什么以及曾经是什么。
So do you like the Seftels or do you not like the Seftels?
那么您喜欢塞夫特尔还是不喜欢塞夫特尔？
I think they're good people, and I'm glad we had a chance to meet them.
我认为他们都是好人，我很高兴我们有机会见到他们。
Yeah.
是的。
Josh Seftel --at the end of the day.
乔什·塞夫特尔——归根结底。
At the end of the day, when the chips are cashed in, they still all have servants.
到最后，当筹码兑现时，他们仍然都有仆人。
Do you feel like if you were here, you would have done more or less than-- what position would you be in in the Seftel family, if you were here?
你是否觉得如果你在这里，你会做更多或更少的事情——如果你在这里，你在塞夫特尔家族中会处于什么位置？
Do you think you would have gotten involved in the struggle, or--
你认为你会参与这场斗争吗，或者——
I don't know.
我不知道。
It's too hard to know.
这太难知道了。
I mean, there's so many variables.
我的意思是，有很多变数。
I would hope that I would have been involved in some way.
我希望我能以某种方式参与其中。
It's like, how can you guess what you would have done?
就像，你怎么能猜到你会做什么？
You never know.
你永远不知道。
Another day, another dinner with Josh's family.
另一天，又和乔希的家人共进晚餐。
Our goodbye dinner.
我们的告别晚餐。
The conversation revolved around a few ongoing obsessions.
谈话围绕着一些持续存在的困扰展开。
Did you hear the news today about this new gang that's going around?
您今天听说过这个新帮派的消息吗？
They're raping young women.
他们强奸年轻女性。
On this visit, they seem more beleaguered than anything else.
在这次访问中，他们似乎比其他任何事情都更加陷入困境。
They told us about all their friends who'd been robbed and attacked.
他们向我们讲述了他们所有被抢劫和袭击的朋友的故事。
Molly explained how she'd been mugged at knife point.
莫莉解释了她是如何被持刀抢劫的。
I'm always looking at myself in the glass in the windows.
我总是透过窗户的玻璃看着自己。
And as I look, I see two tight-buttoned young men jump out of the shadows.
当我看去时，我看到两个纽扣紧绷的年轻人从阴影中跳出来。
And so I jumped into the street.
于是我跳到街上。
And they followed me.
他们跟着我。
They grabbed my bag.
他们抢走了我的包。
And they were pulling me along the ground.
他们把我拉在地上。
And I was screaming.
我尖叫起来。
I mean, I had every sound coming from me.
我的意思是，每一个声音都来自我自己。
I don't know where it came from.
我不知道它是从哪里来的。
And they must have been doing this for about three minutes, when coming towards us was an elderly white couple.
他们一定这样做了大约三分钟，这时朝我们走来的是一对老年白人夫妇。
They must have been in their '70s.
他们一定是70多岁了。
And the man pulled out a gun, and he shot the one on this side of me.
那人掏出一把枪，朝我这边的人开枪。
And I said, "And him too!
我说：“还有他！
Him too!"
他也是！”
Not long ago, Molly had been famous and powerful.
不久前，莫莉还名声大噪，势力强大。
She was an actress who had been in lots of plays and a few films.
她是一位出演过很多戏剧和几部电影的女演员。
She was the first white actress to appear on stage with a black.
她是第一位与黑人一起登上舞台的白人女演员。
Her husband Monty had been a politician and had served as the mayor of Johannesburg during the '70s.
她的丈夫蒙蒂是一位政治家，并在 70 年代担任约翰内斯堡市长。
But he died a few months before we arrived.
但他在我们到达前几个月去世了。
Now she lived by herself in a big house with a big wall surrounding it.
现在她一个人住在一栋大房子里，房子周围有一堵大墙。
She was alone, except for her black servants.
除了她的黑人仆人外，她独自一人。
One of the turning points in her life as a South African, one of the moments that changed her from an activist into the person she's become, was the day that the Seftels had waited for for years, the day Nelson Mandela was released from prison.
作为南非人，她一生的转折点之一，也是将她从一名活动人士转变为现在的样子的时刻之一，是塞夫特尔夫妇等待多年的那一天，纳尔逊·曼德拉出狱的那一天。
The day started off just fine.
这一天开始得很好。
Well, it was total euphoria.
嗯，那是完全的欣快感。
Our family got on a plane and we flew to Cape Town and we stood in the square and waited for Mandela to come.
我们一家人坐上了飞机，飞往开普敦，我们站在广场上等待曼德拉的到来。
And we waited and waited and waited and waited.
我们等啊等啊等啊等。
And in the meantime, in the-- and it got hot as Hades.
与此同时，天气变得像地狱一样炎热。
My friend who was with me, she was punched in the stomach and her camera was stolen.
和我在一起的朋友，她的肚子被打了一拳，她的相机也被偷了。
It was an enormous crowd of people.
那是一大群人。
And they were crushing you and crushing-- eventually, you didn't have any space to breathe.
他们压垮了你，压垮了你——最终，你没有任何呼吸的空间。
And we must have been there for about six hours when we decided we must get out of here, because we began to fear for our safety.
当我们决定必须离开这里时，我们一定在那里呆了大约六个小时，因为我们开始担心我们的安全。
It was that sort of encroachment on our territory.
这就是对我们领土的侵犯。
And this is what's happening now.
这就是现在正在发生的事情。
The new South Africa wasn't working out the way they expected.
新南非并没有按照他们的预期发展。
They complained that since the ANC took power, the mail service is horrible, there's litter in the streets, the government's corrupt.
他们抱怨说，自从非洲人国民大会掌权以来，邮政服务很糟糕，街道上到处都是垃圾，政府腐败。
And they're scared.
他们很害怕。
I mean, they're scared in their own homes.
我的意思是，他们在自己的家里感到害怕。
So that's what we've become.
所以我们就变成这样了。
We're not a threat to anybody.
我们不会对任何人构成威胁。
We pay our taxes and timidly tiptoe through the land, hoping nobody will mug us.
我们缴纳税款，小心翼翼地走过这片土地，希望没有人会抢劫我们。
Now, most of the young people in the family are leaving.
现在，家里的年轻人大部分都离开了。
One of Molly's children has emigrated, and one of Harold's.
莫莉的一个孩子和哈罗德的一个孩子已经移民。
And another of Harold's sons is probably leaving soon.
哈罗德的另一个儿子可能很快就会离开。
Harold told me that in 15 years, there will be hardly any Seftels left in South Africa.
哈罗德告诉我，15 年后，南非将几乎没有任何塞夫特尔酒店。
Yeah, there's one family, and it's a family that has perhaps a greater commitment to South Africa then, say, the average white family.
是的，有一个家庭，这个家庭可能比普通白人家庭对南非有更大的承诺。
And that, I think, is a microcosm that tells you what's happened.
我认为，这是一个缩影，告诉你发生了什么。
Even at this last dinner, even getting along with them as well as we were, there were still things about my South African relatives we didn't completely understand.
即使在最后的晚餐上，尽管我们和他们相处得很好，但关于我的南非亲戚，我们仍然有一些不完全了解的地方。
And it might have been impolite, but we just asked them over and over.
这可能很不礼貌，但我们只是一遍又一遍地问他们。
What did they do during apartheid, if they felt guilty?
如果他们感到内疚，他们在种族隔离期间做了什么？
No, I didn't feel guilty.
不，我没有感到内疚。
Harold Seftel I didn't feel--
哈罗德·塞夫特尔 我没有感觉到——
No, guilt's the wrong word for us.
不，内疚这个词对我们来说是错误的。
We don't feel guilty.
我们并不感到内疚。
What's the right word?
正确的词是什么？
Harold Seftel I think, disappointment, perhaps.
哈罗德·塞夫特尔（Harold Seftel）我想，也许是失望。
Oh, no. We're guilty in the other way.
哦，不。我们在另一方面也有罪。
But not because--
但不是因为——
We lived through the apartheid years.
我们经历了种族隔离时代。
We didn't take up arms.
我们没有拿起武器。
We benefited.
我们受益匪浅。
But in our own little way, we kind of contributed.
但我们以自己的微薄之力，做出了贡献。
I know that Harry--
我知道哈利——
What else could we have done?
我们还能做什么？
Harold Seftel No, but the critical point is--
哈罗德·塞夫特尔 不，但关键点是——
We could have done what the Firsts did.
我们本来可以做第一人所做的事情。
What Ruth First did.
露丝·弗斯特做了什么。
She went to jail.
她进了监狱。
And her family was destroyed.
而她的家庭也被毁了。
But we didn't want that.
但我们不想这样。
But the important point is the fact that we've stayed, we made a contribution.
但重要的是我们留下来，我们做出了贡献。
Surely, the fact that we were here and helped to teach and to educate and to treat the sick and so on and so forth.
当然，事实上我们在这里帮助教学、教育和治疗病人等等。
That was surely far better than being in Boston.
这肯定比在波士顿好得多。
All right?
好的？
We weren't activists.
我们不是活动家。
Absolutely right.
完全正确。
But while we were here, surely we were making a contribution which we could never have made in Boston or in New York.
但当我们在这里时，我们无疑做出了在波士顿或纽约永远无法做出的贡献。
So that was it.
就是这样。
Now that we're back in the States, Rich and I never really talk about what happened in South Africa.
现在我们回到了美国，里奇和我从来没有真正谈论过南非发生的事情。
I guess we've said everything there is to say to each other.
我想我们已经把所有想说的都说了。
It's been several months since we've been back and we haven't had a single fight.
我们回来已经好几个月了，没有发生过任何争吵。
Josh Seftel is a documentary filmmaker who made the film Taking on the Kennedys.
乔什·塞夫特尔（Josh Seftel）是一位纪录片制片人，制作了电影《挑战肯尼迪家族》。
Rich Robinson works for a business consulting firm.
里奇罗宾逊在一家商业咨询公司工作。
After coming home to the United States, he moved to Brazil for six months on business.
回到美国后，他因公移居巴西六个月。
Alone.
独自的。
Our program was produced today by Alix Spiegel and myself, with Paul Tough, Nancy Updike, and Julie Snyder.
今天我们的节目由我和阿利克斯·斯皮格尔、保罗·托夫、南希·厄普代克和朱莉·斯奈德共同制作。
Contributing editors Sarah Vowell, Jack Hitt, and Margy Rochlin.
特约编辑莎拉·沃威尔、杰克·希特和玛吉·罗克林。
Production help from Alex Blumberg, Susan Burton, Jorge Just, Todd Bachmann, and Sylvia Lemus.
Alex Blumberg、Susan Burton、Jorge Just、Todd Bachmann 和 Sylvia Lemus 为制作提供了帮助。
[ACKNOWLEDGMENTS] If you'd like to buy a cassette of this program, call us here at WBEZ in Chicago, 312-832-3380.
[鸣谢] 如果您想购买该节目的磁带，请致电我们芝加哥的 WBEZ，电话：312-832-3380。
Or you know, you can listen to most of our programs for free on the internet at our website www.thisamericanlife.org.
或者您知道，您可以在我们的网站 www.thisamericanlife.org 上免费收听我们的大部分节目。
Thanks to Elizabeth Meister who runs the site.
感谢运营该网站的伊丽莎白·梅斯特 (Elizabeth Meister)。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
[FUNDING CREDITS] WBEZ management oversight by Torey Malatia, who walks up to me at the end of every single show we do and declares--
[资金来源] WBEZ 管理由 Torey Malatia 负责监督，他在我们每场演出结束时都会走到我面前并宣布——
It was an amazing experience.
这是一次奇妙的经历。
I actually still feel quite out of my body.
事实上我仍然感觉身体很不舒服。
Really.
真的。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Happy Independence Day.
独立日快乐。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life .
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
And thank you for creating the space to help me let go.
感谢您创造空间来帮助我放手。
I'm just feeling incredibly emotional.
我只是感觉非常激动。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。