716: Trail of Tears - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #716 | September 4, 2020 716: Trail of Tears Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 716 集 | 2020 年 9 月 4 日 716：泪痕 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass When Lucian Truscott tries to explain how he's related to Thomas Jefferson, he says, OK, he's 73.
序言：序言 艾拉·格拉斯 当卢西恩·特拉斯科特试图解释他与托马斯·杰斐逊的关系时，他说，好吧，他 73 岁了。
He used to visit a great grandmother, who used to visit her great grandfather, Thomas Jefferson's grandson.
他曾经拜访过一位曾祖母，而曾祖母也曾拜访过她的曾祖父、托马斯·杰斐逊的孙子。
So there was only-- when I was growing up, when I visited my great grandmother, there was only one dead person between me and Jefferson.
所以只有——当我长大的时候，当我拜访我的曾祖母时，我和杰斐逊之间只有一个死人。
When Lucian was a boy in the early 1950s, just six or seven years old, when he would visit family in Charlottesville, sometimes they would drop him off with his brother at Monticello, Jefferson's home.
When Lucian was a boy in the early 1950s, just six or seven years old, when he would visit family in Charlottesville, sometimes they would drop him off with his brother at Monticello, Jefferson's home.
Lucian says it was before the place had been remade for tourists like it is today.
卢西安说，那是在这个地方像今天这样为游客改建之前的事情。
Basically, visitors who pay maybe $1 and walk through the house.
基本上，游客只需支付 1 美元即可穿过房子。
You know, my great aunts, they treated the place like it was still the family home.
你知道，我的姨婆们对待这个地方就像对待我的家一样。
And we had the run of the place.
我们掌控了这个地方。
We used to fill our pockets full of pebbles from the walkways up there, and go up on the second floor and third floor of the place and crawl out windows onto these parapets that are up around the top of Monticello and drop pebbles on the tourists that were walking around the house.
我们过去常常从那里的人行道上装满鹅卵石，然后爬到这个地方的二楼和三楼，从窗户爬到蒙蒂塞洛顶部周围的护墙上，把鹅卵石扔到在房子周围走动的游客身上。
And--
还有——
Very asocial behavior.
非常不合群的行为。
Lucian Truscott Yeah.
卢西安·特拉斯科特 是的。
And you're talking to one of-- probably the only person you'll ever talk to in your life that's actually jumped on Thomas Jefferson's bed.
而你正在和一个真正跳到托马斯·杰斐逊床上的人交谈——可能是你一生中唯一交谈过的人。
I mean, we would play on the bed.
我的意思是，我们会在床上玩。
We'd go through that little doorway and up the stairs into the closet, which is above the bed there, and sit up there in the closet.
我们穿过那个小门口，爬上楼梯，进入位于床上方的壁橱，然后坐在壁橱里。
And when tourists came through the room, we'd stick our faces out of the window up there and say boo and scare them.
当游客穿过房间时，我们会把脸伸出窗外，说“嘘”，吓唬他们。
We'd hide out there.
我们会躲在那里。
And so--
所以——
We went through all the bedrooms and stuff up there.
我们检查了所有的卧室和那里的东西。
And then, of course, we'd play down in the basement rooms.
然后，当然，我们会在地下室玩。
And then of course what they call the dependencies, which were the slave rooms that run under the two wings that run out from Monticello itself.
当然，还有他们所谓的附属物，即从蒙蒂塞洛本身延伸出来的两个侧翼下运行的奴隶房间。
It would be decades before the slave quarters were part of the Monticello tour, Lucian says.
卢西安说，几十年后，奴隶区才成为蒙蒂塞洛之旅的一部分。
These were just empty rooms under the house.
这些只是房子下面的空房间。
No furniture or anything else in them.
里面没有家具或其他任何东西。
He and his brother would explore and run around.
他和他的兄弟会探索和奔跑。
And play hide and seek or whatever little boys did.
玩捉迷藏之类的小男孩玩的游戏。
It's amazing to me the degree to which it felt like a family home.
让我感到惊讶的是，它给人的感觉就像一个家庭住宅。
Did it feel that way to you as a kid?
小时候的你有这样的感觉吗？
You know, I have to tell you that all of this stuff in my family was just taken for granted.
你知道，我必须告诉你，我家里的所有这些东西都被认为是理所当然的。
These days, of course, nothing about the legacies of the Founding Fathers is taken for granted.
当然，如今，开国元勋的遗产中没有任何东西被认为是理所当然的。
Just this week, a special committee appointed by the mayor of Washington, DC called for removing, relocating, or contextualizing a bunch of monuments to slave-owning Founding Fathers, including the Jefferson Memorial and the Washington Monument, which, by the way, the mayor doesn't actually have jurisdiction over.
就在本周，华盛顿特区市长任命的一个特别委员会呼吁拆除、搬迁或安置一系列奴隶制开国元勋纪念碑，包括杰斐逊纪念碑和华盛顿纪念碑，顺便说一句，市长实际上对这些纪念碑没有管辖权。
Meanwhile, the president, of course, has put his arms around this issue.
与此同时，总统当然也开始关注这个问题。
Right after he began his reelection campaign, he gave a speech at Mount Rushmore to make clear that he does not want to remove any monuments or rename any buildings or military bases.
在开始竞选连任后，他在拉什莫尔山发表演讲，明确表示他不想拆除任何纪念碑或重新命名任何建筑物或军事基地。
But this great, great, great-- whatever it is-- direct descendant of Thomas Jefferson, Lucian Truscott, he's got a special perspective on this.
但这位伟大的、伟大的、伟大的——无论是什么——托马斯·杰斐逊、卢西恩·特拉斯科特的直系后裔，他对此有特殊的看法。
He led the charge to convince all the other white descendants of Thomas Jefferson to allow the Black descendants of Thomas Jefferson into their official family association.
他带头说服托马斯·杰斐逊的所有其他白人后裔允许托马斯·杰斐逊的黑人后裔加入他们的官方家族协会。
The Black family members, of course, trace back to Jefferson and Sally Hemings, one of the people he enslaved.
当然，布莱克家族的成员可以追溯到杰斐逊和被他奴役的人之一莎莉·海明斯。
Lucian thinks that everybody needs to get real about the slave-owning past of some of the Founding Fathers.
卢西安认为，每个人都需要认清一些开国元勋拥有奴隶的过去。
Like, how do you feel about people taking down monuments of Thomas Jefferson?
比如，你对人们拆除托马斯·杰斐逊的纪念碑有何感想？
I think they ought to be taken down.
我认为他们应该被拿下。
I think that the great monument to Thomas Jefferson is Monticello.
我认为托马斯·杰斐逊的伟大纪念碑是蒙蒂塞洛。
And I think it's an appropriate monument, because it actually puts Jefferson's life in context.
我认为这是一座合适的纪念碑，因为它实际上将杰斐逊的生活置于背景之中。
It puts his slave-owning as part of his life and in context.
它将他的奴隶制视为他生活的一部分并置于背景之中。
If you visit Monticello today, you get to see where the slaves lived.
如果您今天访问蒙蒂塞洛，您可以看到奴隶居住的地方。
You'll be shown where Sally Hemings's brother John did woodwork in Jefferson's bedroom, and study, and so forth.
您将看到莎莉·海明斯的弟弟约翰在杰斐逊的卧室、书房等地方做木工的地方。
Slaves built that place.
奴隶建造了那个地方。
I never heard that slaves built that place when I was growing up.
我小时候从未听说过那个地方是奴隶建造的。
But it's talked about today.
但今天就说到这了。
The history of Monticello at this point is about half Jefferson history, half slave history.
此时蒙蒂塞洛的历史大约一半是杰斐逊的历史，一半是奴隶的历史。
I think that's appropriate.
我认为这是合适的。
As a memorial, it tells the story of the whole man, not just this sort of god-like Thomas Jefferson we've all been raised to venerate.
作为一座纪念碑，它讲述了整个人的故事，而不仅仅是我们从小就崇拜的神一样的托马斯·杰斐逊。
What are we supposed to do with the shameful parts of America's past?
我们应该如何对待美国过去的可耻部分？
This is being talked about so much today.
今天这个话题已经被谈论了很多。
And back in the early days of our radio show, in the late '90s, one of our contributors, Sarah Vowell, did a story that took that on in this very vivid and complicated way.
早在我们广播节目的早期，也就是 90 年代末，我们的一位撰稿人 Sarah Vowell 就以非常生动和复杂的方式讲述了这个故事。
She set out on the road with her sister Amy to visit the site of a historic tragedy, one that involved part of their own family 160 years before that.
她和姐姐艾米一起上路去参观一场历史性悲剧的地点，这场悲剧发生在 160 年前，他们一家人也参与其中。
And we wanted to replay it this holiday weekend because the questions that it addresses, the things that it is obsessed with, are all so much more talked about today than 22 years ago when she did that story.
我们想在这个假期周末重播这个故事，因为它所解决的问题，它所痴迷的事情，与 22 年前她讲这个故事时相比，现在人们谈论的次数要多得多。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
We take a road trip into history today.
今天我们将踏上一段历史之旅。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
So Sarah Vowell and her sister Amy were born in eastern Oklahoma, in what was called Indian Territory before statehood.
莎拉·沃威尔和她的妹妹艾米出生在俄克拉荷马州东部，建州前的印第安领地。
That's where our story ends, and that's also where it begins.
这是我们的故事结束的地方，也是故事开始的地方。
They're enrolled citizens of the Cherokee Nation, like their parents, which, as you'll hear, is important to this story.
他们是切罗基族的登记公民，就像他们的父母一样，正如你所听到的，这对这个故事很重要。
Here's the opening line of Sarah's story from 1998.
这是 1998 年莎拉的故事的开场白。
Being at least a little Cherokee in northeastern Oklahoma is about as rare and remarkable as being a Michael Jordan fan in Chicago.
在俄克拉荷马州东北部成为至少一个小切罗基人就像在芝加哥成为迈克尔·乔丹粉丝一样罕见和非凡。
I mean, who isn't?
我的意思是，谁不是？
I'm guessing I don't need to explain that antique 1998 sports reference to many of you, but I do have one note before we play the rest of the story.
我想我不需要向你们中的许多人解释那段古老的 1998 年体育赛事，但在我们播放故事的其余部分之前，我确实有一个注释。
And it's about the word "Injun." Sarah asked me to point out to anyone hearing this today that her grandfather was born in Indian Territory before statehood.
这是关于“Injun”这个词的。莎拉让我向今天听到这句话的人指出，她的祖父在建州之前就出生在印第安领地。
And he used the word "Injun" as a term of affection.
他用“Injun”这个词来表达感情。
It was never derogatory.
这从来都不是贬义的。
OK, so picking up, Sarah's part Cherokee.
好的，那么，莎拉有切罗基血统。
It goes without saying that my twin sister Amy is, too, except that I have dark eyes and dark hair, and she's a blue-eyed blonde.
不用说，我的双胞胎妹妹艾米也是，只不过我有黑眼睛和黑头发，而她是蓝眼睛的金发女郎。
And so our grandfather nicknamed me Injun and her Swede.
所以我们的祖父给我起了个绰号“印第安人”，给我起了个绰号“瑞典人”。
Here's Amy's take on all this.
这是艾米对这一切的看法。
I must point out that while my sister and I don't really look alike, we sound almost exactly alike.
我必须指出，虽然我和姐姐看起来并不相似，但我们听起来几乎一模一样。
A hint for listening to this story, I'm usually the grouchy one.
听这个故事的一个提示，我通常是那个脾气暴躁的人。
Here's Amy.
这是艾米。
I mean, those roles were assigned to us, you know, Indian and Swede, because of the way we looked.
我的意思是，这些角色被分配给我们，你知道，印度人和瑞典人，因为我们的外表。
But it was also more like the things we were told about ourselves, and she was the one who was given the Cherokee language book.
但这也更像是我们被告知的关于我们自己的事情，而她就是那个收到切罗基语书的人。
And I was the one who was always told how much alike I was to our Swedish grandmother.
我是那个总是被告知我和我们的瑞典祖母有多么相似的人。
And I think I was probably 6 or 7 or something before I realized that I was Cherokee, too.
我想我可能六七岁左右才意识到我也是切罗基人。
We're a little French, and Scottish, and English, and Seminole, too.
我们有一点法国血统、苏格兰血统、英国血统，还有塞米诺尔血统。
Typical American mutts.
典型的美国杂种狗。
But the Cherokee and Swedish sides of the family were the only genealogies anyone knew anything about.
但切罗基族和瑞典族是人们唯一了解的家谱。
Here's what we knew about ourselves.
这是我们对自己的了解。
Ellis Island, Trail of Tears.
埃利斯岛，泪痕。
And I think, to a kid, Trail of Tears, the Cherokees' forced march from the East to Oklahoma, where we were born, seemed enormously more interesting, just as a name.
我认为，对于一个孩子来说，“泪痕”，切罗基人从东部强行进军到我们出生的俄克拉荷马州，似乎更有趣，就像一个名字一样。
Even the smallest children know what tears mean.
即使是最小的孩子也知道眼泪意味着什么。
And I think in my earliest understanding of where I came from, I pictured myself descended from a long line of weepers with bloodshot eyes.
我想，在我对自己来自哪里的最早理解中，我想象自己是一排眼睛布满血丝的哭泣者的后裔。
The Trail of Tears.
泪之轨迹。
Between 1838 and '39, the US army wrenched 16,000 people from their homes, rounded them up in stockades, and marched them across the country.
1838 年至 39 年间，美国军队将 16,000 人从家园中强行带走，将他们围困在栅栏里，然后将他们押送至全国各地。
4,000 died.
4,000 人死亡。
Every summer when we were children, our parents would drive us to a place about half an hour from where we lived called Tsa-La-Gi, which is the Cherokee word for "Cherokee." Tsa-La-Gi is the tribe's cultural center.
当我们还是孩子的时候，每年夏天，父母都会开车送我们去一个距离我们住处大约半小时车程的地方，名叫 Tsa-La-Gi，这是切罗基语中“切罗基”的意思。 Tsa-La-Gi 是该部落的文化中心。
There's a recreated village, a museum.
有一个重建的村庄，一个博物馆。
And this was our favorite part, an amphitheater which staged a dramatic recreation of the Trail of Tears.
这是我们最喜欢的部分，一个圆形剧场，上演了泪痕的戏剧性再现。
Every summer, we watched Chief John Ross try like mad to save the Cherokee land back East.
每年夏天，我们都会看到约翰·罗斯酋长疯狂地试图拯救东部切罗基人的土地。
We saw his hothead rival, Stand Watie, rage off to the Civil War.
我们看到他头脑发热的对手斯坦德·瓦蒂（Stand Watie）愤怒地发起内战。
We especially loved the Death of the Phoenix, a noisy, magenta-lit, interpretive dance in which the mythic bird would die only to rise again.
我们特别喜欢《凤凰之死》，这是一种喧闹的、洋红色的、具有解释性的舞蹈，其中神话中的鸟死后又会复活。
We would get these programs or brochures, and Sarah was kind of in charge of them.
我们会得到这些程序或小册子，莎拉负责管理它们。
And sometimes she'd let me look at them.
有时她会让我看它们。
She had a whole little file, and we would look through them.
她有一整套小档案，我们会翻阅它们。
And it was-- I mean, I did take it to heart.
我的意思是，我确实把它记在心里。
It was a story that was really tragic.
这是一个非常悲惨的故事。
I have a reverent feeling towards it.
我对此有一种崇敬的感觉。
And I think it's because of this play, because this play was so serious and told such a detailed story, that it took this place of significance, like it was really important and it really mattered.
我认为正是因为这部剧，因为这部剧是如此严肃，讲述了如此详细的故事，它才占据了如此重要的地位，就像它真的很重要，真的很重要一样。
Here's the measure of how important the amphitheater show was to Amy and me.
这是衡量圆形剧场表演对艾米和我有多重要的衡量标准。
Our father and our grandfather used to show us photographs of Cherokee leaders in books, but even now, when I imagine Stand Watie, I picture the actor at Tsa-La-Gi.
我们的父亲和祖父过去常常在书中给我们展示切罗基领导人的照片，但即使是现在，当我想象斯坦·瓦蒂时，我也会想象这位演员在 Tsa-La-Gi 的情景。
So all my life, I knew I wouldn't exist but for the Trail of Tears, and it struck me as a little silly that most of the things I knew about it were based on an amphitheater drama I haven't seen for nearly 20 years.
所以我一生都知道，如果没有《泪之轨迹》，我就不会存在。我觉得我所知道的关于它的大部分内容都是基于一部我已经近 20 年没看过的圆形剧场戏剧，这让我觉得有点愚蠢。
At first, I thought I'd read some books about it, which I did.
起初，我以为我读过一些关于它的书，我确实读了。
But then I wanted to see it, feel it, know how long a trek it was.
但后来我想看看它，感受它，知道这是一次多么漫长的跋涉。
I wanted it to be real.
我希望它是真实的。
I enlisted Amy.
我招募了艾米。
Perhaps she'd like to do all the driving?
也许她愿意承担所有的驾驶工作？
A historical tragedy in five 14 hour days behind the wheel?
五天 14 小时的驾驶造成历史悲剧？
Who could pass that up?
谁能把它传递出去？
And so I fly from Chicago, she from Montana, and one spring morning, we find ourselves in a rental car on our way to northwestern Georgia, the homeland of the Cherokee before they were shoved out to Oklahoma, the place the Trail of Tears begins.
所以我从芝加哥飞来，她从蒙大拿州飞来，一个春天的早晨，我们发现自己乘坐一辆租来的汽车前往佐治亚州西北部，这里是切罗基人的故乡，后来他们被赶到了俄克拉荷马州，泪水之路开始的地方。
The Cherokee Territory once encompassed most of present day Tennessee and Kentucky, as well as parts of Alabama, Georgia, Virginia, and the Carolinas.
切罗基领地曾经包括现今田纳西州和肯塔基州的大部分地区，以及阿拉巴马州、佐治亚州、弗吉尼亚州和卡罗来纳州的部分地区。
Even before contact with the Europeans in 1540, they were a proto-democratic society.
甚至在 1540 年与欧洲人接触之前，他们就是一个原始民主社会。
They built these enormous council houses, big enough to fit the entire tribe inside, so everyone could participate in tribal decisions.
他们建造了这些巨大的议会大厦，大到足以容纳整个部落，这样每个人都可以参与部落的决策。
We're barely on the road an hour when we spot them.
当我们发现他们时，我们在路上才走了一个小时。
Injuns, ceramic ones, three feet tall at a shack on the side of the road.
印第安人，陶瓷的，三英尺高，在路边的一个小屋里。
Amy drives past them, we do a double take, and we don't even discuss whether or not to stop.
艾米开车经过他们，我们看了两眼，甚至没有讨论是否停下来。
She just backs up immediately and parks.
她只是立即倒车并停车。
I'm a Mexican, from Texas.
我是墨西哥人，来自德克萨斯州。
Sarah Vowell From Texas?
来自德克萨斯州的莎拉·沃威尔？
And what brought you to Calhoun, Georgia?
是什么让您来到佐治亚州卡尔霍恩？
The work.
工作。
Sarah Vowell The eight little Indians he's selling are of the kitschy teepee-toting Plains Indians variety, which are probably a lot easier to sell than the stereotypical image of a Cherokee, a tired out old woman, tromping through the Trail of Tears in rags.
莎拉·沃威尔（Sarah Vowell） 他出售的八个小印第安人属于俗气的、带着圆锥形帐篷的平原印第安人品种，这可能比切罗基人的刻板形象更容易出售，切罗基人是一个疲惫的老妇人，穿着破烂的衣服在泪水之路上行走。
Who wants that as a lawn ornament?
谁想要它作为草坪装饰品？
Who buys these statues, these Indian statues?
谁购买这些雕像，这些印度雕像？
People here from Calhoun, around Georgia.
来自佐治亚州周边卡尔霍恩的人们。
People here around Georgia love Indians.
佐治亚州周围的人们都喜欢印第安人。
Oh, that's right.
哦，是这样。
That's true.
这是真的。
You're telling the truth there.
你在那里说的是实话。
Thank you very much.
非常感谢。
The Cherokee, especially the mixed bloods, were always your nerdy, overachiever, bookish sort of tribe.
切罗基人，尤其是混血儿，总是属于书呆子、成绩优异、书呆子气的部落。
And in the early 19th century, they launched a series of initiatives directly imitating the new American republic.
而在19世纪初，他们发起了一系列直接模仿新美利坚共和国的举措。
In one decade, they created a written language, started a free press, ratified a constitution, and founded a capital city.
在十年内，他们创造了一种书面语言，开始了新闻自由，批准了一部宪法，并建立了一座首都。
New Echota was that capital.
New Echota 就是那个首都。
Now it stands in the middle of nowhere, a Georgia State Park with a handful of buildings across from a golf course.
现在它矗立在佐治亚州立公园的荒无人烟的地方，高尔夫球场对面有几座建筑物。
Drive on in.
开车进去。
Sarah Vowell New Echota was founded in 1825.
Sarah Vowell New Echota 成立于 1825 年。
To call it the Cherokee version of Washington, DC is entirely applicable, given the form of government the tribe established there.
考虑到部落在那里建立的政府形式，将其称为切罗基版的华盛顿特区是完全适用的。
They ratified a constitution based on that of the United States, dividing into legislative, judicial, and executive branches.
他们批准了一部以美国宪法为基础的宪法，分为立法、司法和行政部门。
Its preamble begins "we, the representatives of the people of the Cherokee Nation, in convention assembled in order to establish justice, ensure tranquility, promote our common welfare, and secure to ourselves and our posterity the blessings of liberty."
其序言开头写道：“我们，切罗基族人民的代表，召开大会是为了建立正义，确保安宁，促进我们的共同福利，并确保我们自己和我们的子孙后代获得自由的祝福。”
Unlike Washington, New Echota is cool, and quiet, and green.
与华盛顿不同，新埃科塔凉爽、安静、绿色。
Site manager David Gomez showed us around the grounds, and Amy and I were unprepared for the loveliness of the place, for its calm lushness, its fragrance.
现场经理大卫·戈麦斯带我们参观了场地，艾米和我对这个地方的可爱、平静的郁郁葱葱和芬芳感到措手不及。
Everywhere, honeysuckle was in bloom.
到处都盛开着金银花。
I like it here.
我喜欢这里。
David Gomez It's nice.
大卫·戈麦斯 很好。
It's peaceful, and it's right for the-- the atmosphere is right for what was going on in the story that we tell here.
这里很平静，而且气氛也很适合我们在这里讲述的故事中所发生的事情。
It's a story that's sad in a lot of ways, but there was a lot of great things happening with the Cherokee Nation.
这是一个在很多方面都很悲伤的故事，但切罗基民族也发生了很多伟大的事情。
The Cherokee, along with the other southeastern tribes who suffered removal to Oklahoma-- the Chickasaw, the Creek, the Choctaw, the Seminole-- are one of the so-called five civilized tribes.
切罗基人以及其他被迁移到俄克拉荷马州的东南部部落——奇卡索人、克里克人、乔克托人、塞米诺尔人——都是所谓的五个文明部落之一。
It was in 1822 that the Cherokee hero, Sequoyah, developed an alphabet, inventing the sole written language of any North American tribe.
1822 年，切罗基英雄 Sequoyah 发明了字母表，发明了北美部落唯一的书面语言。
Only six years later, Cherokee editor Elias Boudinot founded The Cherokee Phoenix, a bilingual English-Cherokee newspaper published at New Echota.
仅六年后，切罗基编辑埃利亚斯·布迪诺 (Elias Boudinot) 创办了《切罗基凤凰》(The Cherokee Phoenix)，这是一份在 New Echota 出版的英切罗基双语报纸。
Many Cherokee, especially the mixed bloods, practiced Christianity.
许多切罗基人，尤其是混血儿，信奉基督教。
And because many of these lived as civilized, Southern gentlemen of the early 19th century, they owned prospering plantations, which meant they owned Black slaves.
由于他们中的许多人都是 19 世纪初文明的南方绅士，他们拥有繁荣的种植园，这意味着他们拥有黑人奴隶。
More than any other Native American tribe, the Cherokees adopted the religious, cultural, and political ideals of the United States, partly as a means to self-preservation.
切罗基人比任何其他美洲原住民部落都更接受美国的宗教、文化和政治理想，部分原因是为了自我保护。
By becoming more like the Americans, they hoped to coexist with this new nation that was growing up around them.
通过变得更像美国人，他们希望与这个在他们周围成长的新国家共存。
They weren't allowed to.
他们不被允许这样做。
Georgia settlers wanted their land and their gold, which was discovered near New Echota in 1829.
乔治亚州的定居者想要他们的土地和黄金，这些黄金是 1829 年在新埃科塔附近发现的。
They were really progressing so fast at this time period.
他们这个时期的进步，真的是太快了。
The printing operation was going with their newspaper here.
他们的报纸在这里进行印刷工作。
Things were moving so fast for them for a short while here that it looked very promising.
对他们来说，这里的事情在短时间内进展得如此之快，看起来非常有希望。
But because of gold and the big demand for the land, their fate had already been really sealed for them in earlier years.
但因为黄金和土地的巨大需求，早些年他们的命运就已经注定了。
The tribe allowed Christian missionaries to live and work among them and to teach their children English.
该部落允许基督教传教士在他们中间生活和工作，并教他们的孩子英语。
The most beloved of these was the Presbyterian Samuel Worcester, who built a two-story house at New Echota, which functioned as a post office, school, and rooming house.
其中最受欢迎的是长老会塞缪尔·伍斯特，他在新埃科塔建造了一座两层楼的房子，用作邮局、学校和宿舍。
It's still there, and David Gomez walks us through.
它仍然在那里，大卫·戈麦斯带我们走过。
We've got some steep steps here.
我们这里有一些陡峭的台阶。
Y'all hold on as you go down.
下去的时候大家一定要坚持住。
I don't want y'all to have a broken leg on the rest of your trip.
我不希望你们在余下的旅程中摔断腿。
The state of Georgia, which of all the Southern states treated the Cherokee with the most hostility, passed a number of alarming laws in the 1820s and '30s, undermining the sovereignty of the nation.
乔治亚州是南方各州中对待切罗基人最敌视的州，它在 1820 年代和 30 年代通过了一系列令人震惊的法律，损害了国家的主权。
One of these laws required white settlers within the boundaries of the nation to obtain a permit from the state of Georgia.
其中一项法律要求国家境内的白人定居者获得佐治亚州的许可。
Samuel Worcester refused to apply for such a permit, arguing that he had the permission of the Cherokee to live on their lands and that should suffice.
塞缪尔·伍斯特拒绝申请此类许可证，认为他已获得切罗基人的许可，可以在他们的土地上生活，这就足够了。
Georgia arrested Worcester and imprisoned him for four years.
佐治亚州逮捕了伍斯特并监禁了他四年。
Worcester appealed to the Supreme Court, and the case Worcester v.
伍斯特向最高法院提出上诉，并判决“伍斯特诉”一案。
Georgia became a great victory for the tribe.
乔治亚成为部落的伟大胜利。
The court, under Chief Justice John Marshall, ruled that the Cherokee Nation was just that-- a sovereign nation within the borders of the US, and therefore beholden only to the federal government, i.e. not under the jurisdiction of Georgia State laws.
在首席大法官约翰·马歇尔的领导下，法院裁定切罗基民族是美国境内的一个主权国家，因此只受联邦政府管辖，即不受佐治亚州法律的管辖。
And the Cherokee Nation was elated.
切罗基民族很高兴。
They thought, all right, the highest court in the land of the United States, this government that we're trying to copy, they've ruled in our favor.
他们认为，好吧，美国土地上的最高法院，我们试图效仿的这个政府，他们做出了对我们有利的裁决。
This is gonna be good.
这会很好。
And of course Andrew Jackson, who was pro-removal from the early years-- he had campaigned on that issue-- decided he wasn't gonna back the Supreme Court ruling.
当然，安德鲁·杰克逊（Andrew Jackson）早年就支持驱逐——他曾就这个问题进行过竞选活动——但他决定不会支持最高法院的裁决。
Think about that, what that means.
想一想，这意味着什么。
Jackson is violating his own oath of office to uphold the Constitution.
杰克逊违反了他自己维护宪法的就职誓言。
Anyway, the state of Georgia was thrilled when Jackson thumbed his nose at the court, and immediately dispatched teams to survey the Cherokee lands for a land lottery.
不管怎样，当杰克逊对法庭嗤之以鼻时，佐治亚州感到非常兴奋，并立即派出团队去勘察切罗基人的土地以进行土地抽签。
Soon white settlers arrived here.
很快白人定居者就来到了这里。
They show up two years later in 1834 with a land lottery deed, and with Georgia soldiers saying, I've got this land from the lottery.
两年后，即 1834 年，他们带着一张土地彩票契约出现，佐治亚州士兵说，我从彩票中得到了这块土地。
Get off of it.
摆脱它。
One small constitutional violation that was part of the land grab, Georgia seized the Cherokee printing press, so they couldn't publicize their cause and win political support in states up North.
作为掠夺土地的一部分，佐治亚州扣押了切罗基印刷机，这是一项小小的违反宪法的行为，因此他们无法宣传他们的事业并赢得北部各州的政治支持。
The tribe was divided about what to do.
部落对于该做什么存在分歧。
Stay and fight, or demand cash for the land and head West?
留下来战斗，还是要求现金购买土地并向西进发？
No one exploited this split more than Andrew Jackson.
没有人比安德鲁·杰克逊更能利用这种分裂。
And no one annoyed Jackson like principal Chief John Ross.
没有人像约翰·罗斯校长那样惹恼杰克逊。
Ross was a Jeffersonian figure in almost every sense.
罗斯几乎在所有意义上都是杰斐逊主义人物。
A Founding Father of the Cherokee nation in its modern legal form, he preached to liberty while owning slaves.
作为切罗基民族现代法律形式的开国元勋，他在拥有奴隶的同时宣扬自由。
An educated gentleman planter, he was their chief from 1827 to 1866.
他是一位受过良好教育的绅士种植园主，从 1827 年到 1866 年担任他们的负责人。
In his later years, he corresponded with Abraham Lincoln.
晚年，他与亚伯拉罕·林肯通信。
In his early years, he was such a believer in the inherent justice of the American system that he lobbied relentlessly in Washington, DC, believing that once the Congress and the president understood that the Cherokee were a virtuous, sibling republic that they'd treat the tribe fairly, as equals.
早年，他坚信美国制度固有的正义性，因此在华盛顿特区进行了不懈的游说，相信一旦国会和总统了解切罗基人是一个善良的兄弟共和国，他们就会公平、平等地对待这个部落。
Once the state of Georgia began evicting the Cherokee, and John Ross among them, Ross wrote, "treated like dogs, we find ourselves fugitives, vagrants, and strangers in our own country."
罗斯写道，一旦佐治亚州开始驱逐切罗基人，其中包括约翰·罗斯，“我们就像狗一样被对待，我们发现自己在自己的国家成为逃亡者、流浪者和陌生人。”
The vast majority of the tribe wanted to stay put and supported Ross, but around 100 men, including Phoenix editor Elias Boudinot and his brother Stand Watie, 100 in a tribe of 16,000, met at Boudinot's house in New Echota and signed a treaty with the US government.
该部落的绝大多数人希望留在原地并支持罗斯，但大约 100 名男子，包括《凤凰报》编辑埃利亚斯·布迪诺 (Elias Boudinot) 和他的兄弟斯坦德·瓦蒂 (Stand Watie)（部落 16,000 人中的 100 人）在布迪诺位于新埃科塔的家中会面，并与美国政府签署了一项条约。
They had no authority to do this.
他们无权这样做。
Called the Treaty of New Echota, it relinquished all Cherokee lands east of the Mississippi in exchange for land in the West.
它被称为《新埃科塔条约》，放弃了密西西比河以东的所有切罗基人土地，以换取西部的土地。
They figured, Georgia was already seizing Cherokee land.
他们认为，佐治亚州已经夺取了切罗基人的土地。
This might be the only way the Cherokee could get something for it.
这可能是切诺基人能得到一些东西的唯一途径。
John Ross, whom the Georgia militia arrested so that he could not protest, was stunned.
乔治亚州民兵逮捕了约翰·罗斯，让他无法抗议，他惊呆了。
He accused the treaty party of treason.
他指责条约方叛国。
The rest of the 16,000 Cherokee signed a petition calling the treaty invalid and illegal.
其余 16,000 名切罗基人签署了一份请愿书，称该条约无效且非法。
Congress ratified the treaty by only one vote, despite impassioned pleas on behalf of the Cherokee by senators Henry Clay and Davy Crockett.
尽管参议员亨利·克莱 (Henry Clay) 和戴维·克罗克特 (Davy Crockett) 代表切罗基人提出了热情的请求，但国会仅以一票之差批准了该条约。
The tribe was given three years to remove themselves to the West.
该部落被给予三年的时间迁移到西方。
Now we're standing at the side of Elias Boudinot's house, where the infamous New Echota treaty was signed.
现在我们站在埃利亚斯·布迪诺的房子旁边，臭名昭著的《新埃科塔条约》就是在这里签署的。
When the spring of '38 rolled around, about like right now, nobody was going anywhere.
当 38 年春天到来时，就像现在一样，没有人去任何地方。
Georgia and the federal government thought they were gonna have some problems, and you had about 7,000 troops come in to forcibly remove the Cherokees from their farms, from their houses, and initially rounded up in what were known as forts or stockades, and then moved up into eastern Tennessee and northeastern Alabama to three immigration depots, where they were then transferred and then moved out on the Trail of Tears, as everybody knows it.
佐治亚州和联邦政府认为他们会遇到一些问题，于是派了大约 7,000 名士兵进来，强行将切罗基人从他们的农场、房屋中赶走，最初将他们围困在所谓的堡垒或栅栏里，然后转移到田纳西州东部和阿拉巴马州东北部的三个移民站，在那里他们被转移，然后沿着泪水之路迁出，这是众所周知的。
So technically this is the starting point for the Trail of Tears.
所以从技术上来说，这是泪痕的起点。
For the individual Cherokees, it really started at their front door or wherever they were rounded up from, though.
不过，对于切罗基人来说，这实际上是从他们的前门或他们被围捕的任何地方开始的。
Amy and I want to step on it, this patch of grass where the treaty was signed, but we hesitate.
我和艾米想踏上这片签订条约的草地，但我们犹豫了。
It's not a grave, Gomez tells us, but that's what it feels like.
戈麦斯告诉我们，这不是坟墓，但感觉就是这样。
We tiptoe onto it, this profane ground.
我们蹑手蹑脚地踏上这片亵渎的土地。
And then we tiptoe away.
然后我们蹑手蹑脚地走开。
Perhaps we should be embarrassed by certain discrepancies between our Trail of Tears and theirs.
也许我们应该为我们的泪痕和他们的泪痕之间的某些差异感到尴尬。
We're weak, we're decadent, we're Americans, which means road trip history buffs one minute, amnesiacs the next.
我们软弱，我们颓废，我们是美国人，这意味着公路旅行历史前一分钟还很精彩，下一分钟就失忆了。
We want to remember, except when we want to forget.
我们想要记住，除非我们想要忘记。
We register at the Chattanooga Choo Choo, the Chattanooga Choo Choo.
我们在查塔努加 Choo Choo 登记，查塔努加 Choo Choo。
It's a hotel now, a gloriously hokey, beautifully restored Holiday Inn, in which the lobby is the ornate dome of the old train station, and the rooms are turn-of-the-century rail cars parked out on the tracks.
现在它是一家酒店，一家经过精心修复、华丽做作的假日酒店，大堂是旧火车站华丽的圆顶，房间是停在铁轨上的世纪之交的有轨电车。
We're in giggles the entire night for the simple reason that the phrase "choo choo" is completely addictive.
我们整个晚上都在咯咯地笑，原因很简单，“choo choo”这个词完全让人上瘾。
We try to work it into every sentence.
我们尝试将其融入到每句话中。
"What should we do for dinner?
“晚饭我们该做什么？
Stay here at the Choo Choo?" We end up going out for barbecue saying, "this is good, but I can't wait to get back to the Choo Choo."
留在Choo Choo吗？”我们最终出去烧烤时说：“这很好，但我迫不及待地想回到 Choo Choo。”
We watched The X-Files in our train car commenting, "is it just me, or is this show even better in the Choo Choo?" I sent email from my laptop just so that I can write, "Greetings from the Chattanooga Choo Choo," exclamation point.
我们在火车车厢里观看《X 档案》时评论道：“是只有我觉得这样吗，还是这部剧在 Choo Choo 里更好？”我从笔记本电脑上发送了电子邮件，这样我就可以写下“来自查塔努加 Choo Choo 的问候”感叹号。
Number of times I just said "Choo Choo?
我刚才说了多少次“Choo Choo？
Seven.
七。
Number of Choos?
选择的数量？
14.
14.
Day two.
第二天。
Sadly, we check out of the Choo Choo and drive across town to Ross's Landing.
遗憾的是，我们从 Choo Choo 退房，开车穿过城镇前往 Ross's Landing。
It used to be where John Ross's ferry service carried people across the Tennessee River.
这里曾经是约翰·罗斯的渡轮服务载人穿越田纳西河的地方。
But in 1838, it was one of the starting points for the water route of the Trail of Tears.
但在 1838 年，这里成为了泪水之路水路的起点之一。
I stand on the sand and read a weathered historical marker.
我站在沙滩上，阅读一块饱经风霜的历史碑记。
"Established about 1816 by John Ross some 370 yards east of this point.
“大约 1816 年，约翰·罗斯 (John Ross) 在该点以东约 370 码处建立了该点。
It consisted of a ferry, warehouse, and landing.
它由渡轮、仓库和码头组成。
Cherokee parties left from the landing for the West in 1838, the same year the growing community took the name Chattanooga." And I'm sure there's no connection at all between those two points.
1838 年，切罗基人从登陆处出发前往西部，同年，不断壮大的社区更名为查塔努加。”我确信这两点之间根本没有任何联系。
That sounds so nice.
听起来真好。
They "left for the West." Bye-bye.
他们“前往西方”。再见。
Bon voyage.
一路顺风。
I haven't mentioned that Ross's Landing also functions as Chattanooga's tourist center.
我还没有提到罗斯着陆点也是查塔努加的旅游中心。
Up the hill from the river is the gigantic Tennessee Aquarium and an IMAX theater.
河边的山上有巨大的田纳西州水族馆和 IMAX 影院。
The place is crawling with tourists, a crowd so generic and distinguishable from one another they swirled around us as a single t-shirt.
这个地方挤满了游客，一群人如此普通，彼此之间又截然不同，他们像一件T恤一样围着我们转。
160 years ago, thousands of Cherokees came through this site.
160 年前，数以千计的切罗基人来到这里。
In the summer, they were forced onto boats and faced heat exhaustion and a drought that stranded them without water to drink.
夏天，他们被迫上船，面临中暑和干旱，导致他们没有水喝。
In the fall, they headed west by foot, eventually trudging barefoot through blizzards.
秋天，他们步行向西行进，最终赤脚在暴风雪中艰难前行。
Either way, they died of starvation, dysentery, diarrhea, and fatigue.
不管怎样，他们都是死于饥饿、痢疾、腹泻和疲劳。
A quarter of the tribe was gone.
部落四分之一的人都消失了。
And here, in the shadow of the aquarium, the Trail of Tears is remembered by a series of quotations from disgruntled Native Americans carved into a concrete plaza.
在这里，在水族馆的阴影下，混凝土广场上刻着一系列来自心怀不满的美洲原住民的名言，人们记住了泪痕。
One of the citations from a Cherokee named Dragging Canoe is from 1776.
其中一条来自切诺基人的引文，名为“拖独木舟”，出自 1776 年。
"The white men have almost surrounded us, leaving us only a little spot of ground to stand upon.
“白人几乎包围了我们，只给我们留下了一小块可以站立的地方。
And it seems to be their intention to destroy us as a nation." Good call.
他们的意图似乎是要摧毁我们这个国家。” 不错的决定。
We're moving diagonally across the sidewalk.
我们斜着穿过人行道。
And Andrew Jackson, in 1820, "It is high time to do away with the farce of treating with Indian tribes as separate nations." We'll step on that one.
1820 年，安德鲁·杰克逊 (Andrew Jackson) 表示，“现在是废除将印第安部落视为独立国家的闹剧的时候了。”我们会踩那一个。
These cracks in the sidewalks, they are symbolic of broken promises.
人行道上的这些裂缝象征着失信。
Are you making that up?
这是你编的吗？
Amy Vowell No, it says right here, some of the pavers are cracked to symbolize the broken promises made to the Indians.
艾米·沃威尔 不，这里说，一些铺路石破裂了，象征着对印第安人的承诺的违背。
Hmm.
嗯。
Most Americans have had this experience.
大多数美国人都有过这样的经历。
Most of us can name things our country has done that we find shameful, from the travesties everybody agrees were wrong, the Japanese internment camps or the late date of slavery's abolition, to murkier partisan arguments about legalized abortion or the Enola Gay.
我们大多数人都能说出我们国家做过的让我们感到可耻的事情，从每个人都认为是错误的滑稽动作、日本拘留营或废除奴隶制的迟到日期，到关于堕胎合法化或埃诺拉同性恋的更阴暗的党派争论。
World history has been a bloody business from the get-go, but the nausea we're suffering, standing on the broken promises at Ross's Landing, is peculiar to a democracy.
世界历史从一开始就是一件血腥的事情，但我们在罗斯登陆点违背承诺时所遭受的恶心是民主所特有的。
Because in a democracy, we're all responsible for everything our government does.
因为在民主国家，我们都要对政府所做的一切负责。
This is the letter from Ralph Waldo Emerson to President Martin van Buren in 1838.
这是 1838 年拉尔夫·沃尔多·爱默生写给马丁·范布伦总统的信。
"A crime is projected that confounds our understandings by its magnitude, a crime that really deprives us as well as the Cherokee of a country.
“所预测的犯罪行为其严重程度混淆了我们的理解，这一犯罪行为真正剥夺了我们以及切罗基人的国家。
For how could we call the conspiracy that should crush these poor Indians our government or the land that was coerced by their parting and dying imprecations our country anymore?
因为，我们怎么能把摧毁这些可怜的印第安人的阴谋称为我们的政府，或者将他们的离别和临终诅咒所胁迫的土地称为我们的国家呢？
You, sir, will bring down the renowned chair in which you sit into infamy if your seal is set to this instrument of perfidy, and the name of this nation, hitherto the sweet omen of religion and liberty, will stink to the world."
先生，如果你的印章被盖在这个背信弃义的工具上，你就会把你坐的那把臭名昭著的椅子推倒，而这个国家的名字，迄今为止宗教和自由的甜蜜预兆，将臭名昭著。”
And the path ends with a quotation from an unknown survivor of the Trail of Tears, who said, "long time we travel on way to new land.
这条路的结尾引用了一位泪水之路的无名幸存者的话，他说：“我们在通往新大陆的路上旅行了很长时间。
People feel bad when they leave old nation.
人们离开祖国时感觉很糟糕。
Womens cry and make sad wails.
妇女哭泣并发出悲伤的哀号。
Children and many men and all look sad like when friends die, but they say nothing and just put heads down and keep on go towards West.
孩子们和许多男人都看起来像朋友去世时一样悲伤，但他们什么也没说，只是低着头继续向西方走去。
Many days pass, and people die very much.
许多天过去了，人们死了很多。
We bury close by trail."
我们埋在小路附近。”
That last passage, especially the part about when friends die, bring us to tears.
最后一段，尤其是关于朋友去世的部分，让我们流泪。
And we just stand there, looking off towards the Tennessee, brokenhearted.
我们就站在那里，望着田纳西州，心碎了。
Meanwhile, there are little kids literally walking over these, words playing on them, making noise, having fun.
与此同时，有小孩子在这些东西上行走，在上面玩文字，发出噪音，玩得很开心。
We sort of hate them for a second.
我们有点讨厌他们。
We ask a teacher who's with a group of fourth graders why she isn't talking to them about Cherokee history.
我们问一位和一群四年级学生在一起的老师为什么不和他们谈论切罗基的历史。
And she says, normally she would, but it's the end of the school year, and this trip is their reward for being good.
她说，通常她会的，但现在是学年结束了，这次旅行是他们表现出色的奖励。
It sounds reasonable.
听起来很有道理。
I ask Amy if she thinks these kids should share our sadness.
我问艾米她是否认为这些孩子应该分享我们的悲伤。
Well, I think it's a sad story.
嗯，我认为这是一个悲伤的故事。
I mean, it's sort of like the Holocaust.
我的意思是，这有点像大屠杀。
You don't have to be Jewish to think that that's definitely a sad part of history.
即使你不是犹太人，也会认为这绝对是历史上悲伤的一部分。
And I think the Trail of Tears is America's version of genocide.
我认为泪痕是美国版的种族灭绝。
And I mean, really, it started right over there.
我的意思是，真的，一切就从那里开始。
You look like you're about to hit something.
你看上去就像要撞到什么东西一样。
Still, I can't take my eyes off those children.
尽管如此，我还是无法把目光从那些孩子身上移开。
I envied them.
我很羡慕他们。
I want to join them.
我想加入他们。
I'm an IMAX person.
我是一个 IMAX 人。
I had been to an IMAX theater just weeks before.
几周前我去过一家 IMAX 影院。
I wanted to come on this trip to get a feel for this trail that made us, but standing here at Ross's Landing, it hits me how crazy that is.
我本想参加这次旅行，感受一下这条造就我们的小径，但站在罗斯登陆点，我突然意识到这是多么疯狂。
Suddenly, the only thing I get out of it is rage.
突然之间，我唯一能摆脱的就是愤怒。
Why should we keep going?
我们为什么要继续走下去？
I don't know.
我不知道。
I don't know why.
我不知道为什么。
I don't know why we're here.
我不知道我们为什么在这里。
I seriously don't.
我真的不这么认为。
Like, I know it's an interesting story, and yes, we are always interested in our past, but I don't-- sometimes I wonder what good comes of that.
就像，我知道这是一个有趣的故事，是的，我们总是对我们的过去感兴趣，但我不——有时我想知道这样做有什么好处。
I don't think it makes me a more contented person at all.
我认为这根本没有让我成为一个更满足的人。
In fact, I think I feel really haunted by all of this, and I feel very weighed down by the pain.
事实上，我觉得我真的被这一切所困扰，我感到非常痛苦。
Part of me thinks this whole thing is a mistake.
我的一部分认为这整件事是一个错误。
And maybe I feel more knowing about it, but I mean, it's not like this is a story where the more you know, the better you'll feel.
也许我觉得自己了解得更多了，但我的意思是，这并不是一个你了解得越多，感觉就越好的故事。
It's just the opposite.
事实恰恰相反。
The more I learn, the worse I feel and the more hatred I feel towards this country that I still love, and therefore the more conflicted.
我了解的越多，我的感觉就越糟糕，对这个我仍然热爱的国家就越仇恨，因此也就越矛盾。
And it's just the most-- I just feel all this anger at everything, and we're standing next to this stupid aquarium building and talking to Coast Guard guys.
最重要的是——我对一切都感到愤怒，而我们正站在这座愚蠢的水族馆建筑旁边，与海岸警卫队的人员交谈。
And there are ducks around, and now there's a calliope?
周围有鸭子，现在还有风琴？
And I mean, I don't know.
我的意思是，我不知道。
Now I just feel-- I feel worse.
现在我只是感觉——我感觉更糟了。
I feel worse.
我感觉更糟了。
There are only so many hours a human being can stomach unfocused dread.
一个人能够忍受不专心的恐惧的时间是有限的。
I was tired, and confused, and depressed, and I needed the kind of respite that can only come from focused resentment.
我很累、很困惑、很沮丧，我需要一种只有集中怨恨才能得到的喘息机会。
In the Trail of Tears saga, if there's one person you're allowed to hate, it's Andrew Jackson, the architect of the Indian removal policy.
在《泪之轨迹》的传奇故事中，如果有一个人可以让你憎恨的话，那就是安德鲁·杰克逊，印第安人驱逐政策的缔造者。
And since the Trail of Tears passed through Nashville anyway, we stop at his plantation, the Hermitage.
由于泪痕无论如何都要经过纳什维尔，所以我们在他的种植园冬宫停了下来。
Sarah Vowell and her sister enter the enemy's bedroom.
莎拉·沃威尔和她的妹妹进入敌人的卧室。
That's in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.
稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today, a program about the past and what to make of the past.
今天，一个关于过去以及如何看待过去的节目。
We continue with the story of Sarah Vowell and her sister, Amy, who are retracing the path of the Trail of Tears.
我们继续讲述莎拉·沃威尔和她的妹妹艾米的故事，她们正在沿着泪水之路重走。
They have just arrived, if you remember from before the break, at the home of the president responsible for the trail, somebody they hate and intend to keep hating, Andrew Jackson, who incidentally is one of President Trump's favorite presidents.
如果你还记得休息前的情况的话，他们刚刚抵达负责这条路线的总统的家中，他们讨厌并打算继续讨厌安德鲁·杰克逊，顺便说一句，他是特朗普总统最喜欢的总统之一。
President Trump placed Jackson's portrait in the Oval Office.
特朗普总统将杰克逊的肖像放置在椭圆形办公室。
He spoke at Jackson's home to commemorate the 250th anniversary of Jackson's birth.
他在杰克逊家中发表讲话，纪念杰克逊诞辰250周年。
In that speech, he called out Jackson as a people's president, like himself, out for the common man, somebody who defied the political class of his day.
在那次演讲中，他称赞杰克逊是一位人民总统，就像他自己一样，是为了普通人而奋斗，是一个反抗当时政治阶层的人。
It was during the Revolution that Jackson first confronted and defied an arrogant elite.
正是在独立战争期间，杰克逊第一次面对并反抗傲慢的精英阶层。
Does that sound familiar to you?
这听起来很熟悉吗？
[CROWD CHEERING] I wonder why they keep talking about Trump and Jackson, Jackson and Trump.
[人群欢呼]我想知道为什么他们一直在谈论特朗普和杰克逊，杰克逊和特朗普。
I know the feeling, Andrew.
我知道这种感觉，安德鲁。
[LAUGHTER] Ira Glass So I pointed out earlier that today's program was first broadcast in 1998.
[笑声] Ira Glass 所以我之前指出今天的节目是 1998 年首次播出的。
In the years since Sarah and Amy visited Jackson's home, they've updated the exhibits.
自从莎拉和艾米参观杰克逊的家后的几年里，他们更新了展品。
The museum there includes exhibits on slaves and on Native American removals that Jackson enacted.
那里的博物馆有关于奴隶和杰克逊颁布的美洲原住民迁移的展览。
There's an audio tour that focuses entirely on the enslaved people who lived there.
有一个语音导览完全聚焦于居住在那里的被奴役者。
Again, from our original story, here's Sarah Vowell.
莎拉·沃威尔再次报道我们最初的故事。
The house and museum are closed to the public when we arrive because of astonishing tornado damage.
当我们到达时，由于龙卷风造成的惊人破坏，故居和博物馆不对公众开放。
Part of me wanted to destroy Andrew Jackson and everything he represented.
我的一部分想要摧毁安德鲁·杰克逊和他所代表的一切。
Seeing all those hacked up trees made me feel like someone had beaten me to the punch.
看到那些被砍倒的树木让我感觉有人抢先一步。
God, look at it.
天哪，看看吧。
All the trees are down.
所有的树都倒下了。
Inside there's no display mentioning Indian removal because, remarkably, there is no display about Jackson's presidency.
里面没有任何关于印第安人驱逐的展示，因为值得注意的是，没有关于杰克逊总统任期的展示。
Carolyn Brackett showed us around the house, a columned antebellum mansion that looks like a cross between Graceland and Tara.
卡罗琳·布拉克特带我们参观了这座房子，这是一座内战前的柱式宅邸，看起来像是格雷斯兰和塔拉的混合体。
Unfortunately for my spite spree, I liked Carolyn Brackett.
不幸的是，对于我的怨恨狂潮，我喜欢卡罗琳·布拉克特。
I felt bad for her.
我为她感到难过。
Like, she would point into the library and say Jackson subscribed to a lot of newspapers before his death.
比如，她会指着图书馆说杰克逊在去世前订阅了很多报纸。
And I'd say, "was one of them The Cherokee Phoenix?" She wasn't sure.
我会说，“切诺基凤凰是其中之一吗？”她不确定。
She wanted to show off the mansion's painstaking restoration.
她想炫耀这座宅邸的精心修复。
All of the rooms that have original wallpaper, all of the paper was conserved and had to be cleaned with an eraser the size of a pencil eraser.
所有的房间都有原来的壁纸，所有的纸张都被保留下来，必须用铅笔橡皮擦大小的橡皮擦清洁。
So that was quite an undertaking.
所以这是一项艰巨的任务。
The portrait of Jackson was finished nine days before his death.
杰克逊的肖像是在他去世前九天完成的。
I think he shows the wear and tear of his life in that portrait.
我认为他在那幅肖像中展示了他生活中的磨损和撕裂。
The one over the-- Sarah Vowell He looks like he's sticking his head out of a car window.
上面那个——莎拉·沃威尔（Sarah Vowell） 他看起来像是把头伸出车窗外。
[LAUGHTER] Carolyn Brackett I guess he wasn't worrying about his hair much by then.
[笑声] 卡罗琳·布拉克特 我想他那时已经不太担心他的头发了。
Carolyn guides us past the flower garden planted by Jackson's wife, Rachel, and into the family graveyard.
卡罗琳引导我们经过杰克逊妻子雷切尔种植的花园，进入家族墓地。
There are a few piddly headstones and one Greco-Roman monstrosity with an obelisk rising from the center.
有几块小小的墓碑和一座希腊罗马式的怪物，中间有一座方尖碑。
Let me guess which one of these graves is Jackson's.
让我猜猜这些坟墓中哪一个是杰克逊的。
Here he is.
他在这里。
He actually had this designed for Rachel and left room for himself.
他实际上是为Rachel设计的，并为自己留了空间。
And these are other family members.
这些是其他家庭成员。
I pull a book out of my backpack, a book with the subtitle Andrew Jackson and the Subjugation of the American Indian.
我从背包里拿出一本书，副标题是安德鲁·杰克逊和美国印第安人的征服。
Carolyn and Amy exchange a worried look.
卡罗琳和艾米交换了一个担忧的眼神。
Well, so I'm standing here on-- I'm standing here on Andrew Jackson's grave, and there is part of me, as a person of partly Cherokee descent, that wouldn't mind dancing on it, you know?
好吧，所以我站在——我站在安德鲁·杰克逊的坟墓上，作为一个有部分切罗基血统的人，我的一部分不介意在上面跳舞，你知道吗？
I'd like-- there's a letter that Jackson wrote about the removal of the Southeastern tribes.
我想要——杰克逊写了一封关于驱逐东南部部落的信。
And can you hold that?
你能坚持住吗？
This is his opinion on the Southeastern tribes leaving their land.
这是他对东南部部落离开他们的土地的看法。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Sarah Vowell "Doubtless it will be painful to leave the graves of their fathers, but what do they more than our ancestors did nor than our children are doing?
莎拉·沃威尔：“毫无疑问，离开他们父亲的坟墓将会是痛苦的，但他们所做的比我们的祖先和我们的孩子所做的更多吗？
To better their condition in an unknown land, our forefathers left all that was dear in earthly objects.
为了改善他们在这片未知土地上的生活，我们的祖先留下了尘世间所有珍贵的东西。
Our children by thousands yearly leave the land of their birth to seek new homes in distant regions."
我们的孩子每年都有数千人离开出生地到遥远的地区寻找新家。”
And then it ends, "Can it be cruel in the government when by events which it cannot control the Indian is made discontent in his ancient home to purchase his lands, give him a new and extensive territory, to pay the expense of his removal, and support him a year in his new abode?
然后它结束了，“当印第安人因无法控制的事件而对他的古老家园感到不满时，购买他的土地，给他一个新的广阔领土，支付他的搬迁费用，并在他的新住所供养他一年，这难道是政府的残酷吗？
How many thousands of our own people would gladly embrace the opportunity of removing to the West on such conditions?"
在这样的条件下，有多少我们自己的人民会欣然接受移居西方的机会？”
I mean, there's something-- there's something nutty about Old Hickory in this passage, just the fact that he just thinks, well, to compare the removal of Indians from their land with the opportunity of his generation to just go out West.
我的意思是，在这段话中，老山核桃有些疯狂，事实上，他只是想，嗯，将印第安人从他们的土地上赶走与他这一代人走出西部的机会进行比较。
Do you think-- I mean, what do you make of that?
你认为——我的意思是，你对此有何看法？
Can you help me understand that mindset?
你能帮我理解这种心态吗？
Probably not.
可能不会。
I mean, the interesting thing about that era was that they really felt that they were preserving.
我的意思是，那个时代的有趣之处在于，他们真的觉得自己在保存。
This is how they justified it in their own minds, was that they were actually helping preserve it, that this was inevitable.
这就是他们在自己心中如何证明这一点的合理性，因为他们实际上是在帮助保护它，这是不可避免的。
It was the early thought of Manifest Destiny, that it was inevitable that this would happen.
这是昭昭命运的早期想法，这种情况的发生是不可避免的。
Interestingly to me is, they never seemed to think that we were gonna settle the country all the way to the West, all the way to California.
对我来说有趣的是，他们似乎从来没有想到我们会在这个国家一直定居到西部，一直到加利福尼亚。
So if they just kept moving everybody further away, they would suddenly get to a point where there wasn't gonna be any settlement, which of course didn't happen.
因此，如果他们继续将所有人移得更远，他们就会突然达到无法达成任何解决方案的地步，这当然不会发生。
We drive on into Kentucky, towards Hopkinsville.
我们继续驶入肯塔基州，前往霍普金斯维尔。
When the Trail of Tears passed through southern Kentucky in December of 1838, a traveler from Maine happened upon a group of Cherokees.
1838 年 12 月，当泪水之路穿过肯塔基州南部时，一位来自缅因州的旅行者偶然遇到了一群切罗基人。
He wrote, "We found them in the forest by a roadside, camped for the night under a severe fall of rain accompanied by heavy wind.
他写道：“我们在路边的森林里发现了他们，他们在大雨和狂风中露营过夜。
Canvas for a shield against the inclemency of the weather and the cold, wet ground for a resting place.
帆布可以抵御恶劣的天气，也可以在寒冷潮湿的地面上休息。
After the fatigue of the day, they spent the night.
经过一天的劳累后，他们过夜了。
Several were then quite ill, and an aging man we were then informed was in the last struggles of death
当时有几个人病得很重，我们随后得知一位老人正在与死亡作最后的斗争。
Even aged females, apparently ready to drop into the grave for traveling with heavy burdens attached to the back, on the sometimes frozen ground and the sometimes muddy streets with no covering for the feet, except for what nature had given them.
即使是上了年纪的女性，显然也准备好背负着沉重的负担进入坟墓，走在有时结冰的地面和有时泥泞的街道上，除了大自然赋予她们的东西外，脚上没有任何遮盖物。
We learned from the inhabitants on the road where the Indians passed that they buried 14 or 15 at every stopping place."
我们从印第安人经过的路上的居民那里了解到，他们在每个停靠点都埋葬了 14 或 15 个人。”
John Ross's wife died in a place like this, in winter, of pneumonia.
约翰·罗斯的妻子冬天在这样的地方死于肺炎。
She had one blanket to protect herself from the weather, and she gave it to a sick child during a sleet storm.
她有一条毯子来保护自己免受天气影响，并在雨夹雪期间把它送给了一个生病的孩子。
There's more.
还有更多。
It gets worse.
情况变得更糟。
I always knew the Cherokee owned slaves, that they owned them in the East, and that they owned them in the West.
我一直都知道切罗基人拥有奴隶，他们在东部拥有奴隶，在西部也拥有奴隶。
Only in the course of this road trip did it occur to me that the slaves got to Indian Territory in the same manner as their masters, on the Trail of Tears.
只是在这次公路旅行的过程中，我才想到，奴隶们和他们的主人一样，沿着泪水之路到达了印第安领地。
Can you imagine?
你能想象吗？
As if being a slave wasn't bad enough?
好像当奴隶还不够糟糕？
To be a slave to a tortured Indian made to walk halfway across the continent?
成为一个饱受折磨的印第安人的奴隶，被迫穿越半个大陆？
Day 3, Hopkinsville.
第三天，霍普金斯维尔。
We stopped here because it was on the map, but pulling into town, we saw signs for a Trail of Tears Memorial Park we didn't know about.
我们在这里停了下来，因为它在地图上，但进入城镇后，我们看到了我们不知道的泪迹纪念公园的标志。
It seemed like a good idea to go there.
去那里似乎是个好主意。
What you need?
你需要什么？
Sarah Vowell Can you tell me about what the origin of this place is, and why there's a park here, and how it came about?
Sarah Vowell 你能告诉我这个地方的由来吗？为什么这里有一个公园，以及它是如何产生的？
Hopkinsville was a ration stop along the way on the Trail of Tears.
霍普金斯维尔是泪水之路沿途的一个口粮站。
And the Cherokee camped here.
切罗基人在这里扎营。
They were here for a week or so.
他们在这里待了一周左右。
While they were here, two of their chiefs died, and they're buried up on the hillside.
当他们在这里的时候，他们的两个首领去世了，他们被埋在山坡上。
If you start here and walk up to the grave area, there are three bronze plaques on each one of the posts.
如果从这里开始，走到墓地，就会发现每根柱子上都有三块青铜牌匾。
The last one, just before you enter the grave area, tells you about the two chiefs, Whitepath and Flysmith.
最后一个，就在你进入坟墓区域之前，告诉你关于两位酋长的事，怀特帕斯和弗莱史密斯。
The plaque nearest the grave says that Whitepath was one of the Cherokee who fought under Andrew Jackson in 1814 at the Battle of Horseshoe Bend.
最靠近坟墓的牌匾上写着，怀特帕斯是 1814 年在安德鲁·杰克逊麾下参加马蹄湾战役的切罗基人之一。
Jackson even gave Whitepath a watch for his bravery.
杰克逊甚至送给怀特帕斯一块手表，以表彰他的勇敢。
In that battle, a Cherokee saved Jackson's life, which hints at the level of Jackson's betrayal of the tribe.
在那场战斗中，一名切罗基人救了杰克逊的命，这暗示了杰克逊对部落的背叛程度。
Had a Cherokee not saved his life then, Whitepath and Flysmith might not be buried here beneath our feet.
如果当时没有切罗基人救了他的命，怀特帕斯和弗莱史密斯可能不会被埋在我们脚下。
The graves are up on a little hill.
坟墓在一座小山上。
You can hear the highway down below, but still it's serene.
你可以听到下面高速公路的声音，但仍然很安静。
Up until this moment, all the graves along the trail had been metaphorical.
直到此刻，沿途的所有坟墓都是隐喻性的。
All through Tennessee, Amy and I kept saying, "we're driving over graves.
在整个田纳西州，艾米和我一直说：“我们正在驶过坟墓。
We're driving over graves."
我们正驶过坟墓。”
But even then, we just imagined them there, under the blacktop, off in the woods.
但即便如此，我们也只是想象他们在那里，在柏油路下，在树林里。
But here the skeletons suddenly had faces, specific stories.
但这里的骷髅突然有了面孔，有了具体的故事。
The graves were real.
坟墓是真实的。
It took the Cherokee about six months to walk to Oklahoma.
切罗基人花了大约六个月的时间才步行到俄克拉荷马州。
We're doing it in five days.
我们将在五天内完成。
Every 10 minutes, we cover the same amount of ground they covered in a day.
每 10 分钟，我们所行走的地面量与他们一天所行走的地面量相同。
We drive with the sun in our eyes, on back roads, through Kentucky.
我们在阳光照耀下开车，沿着偏僻的小路，穿过肯塔基州。
We duck into a remote section of downstate Illinois Chicagoans fear to tread.
我们躲进了伊利诺伊州南部的一个偏远地区，芝加哥人不敢踏足。
A plaque marks the spot where thousands of Cherokee camped, unable to cross the Mississippi because of floating ice.
一块牌匾标志着数千切罗基人露营的地方，由于浮冰而无法穿越密西西比河。
We cross it in under a minute.
我们在一分钟之内就穿过了它。
I know we're going fast, but it doesn't feel fast.
我知道我们走得很快，但感觉并不快。
We plod through most of Missouri, stopping at yet another Trail of Tears State Park.
我们缓慢地穿过密苏里州的大部分地区，并在另一个泪水之路州立公园停留。
There's actually a name for what we're doing.
我们正在做的事情实际上有一个名字。
It's called heritage tourism, which sounds so grand, like it's gonna be one freaking epiphany after another.
这就是所谓的遗产旅游，听起来如此宏伟，就像这将是一个又一个可怕的顿悟。
But after a while, we just read the signs without even getting out of the car.
但过了一会儿，我们甚至没有下车就只是看标志。
At the end of every day, we fall into our motel beds, wrecked.
每天结束时，我们都会倒在汽车旅馆的床上，心力交瘁。
Day 4, in the morning, we plow through Arkansas.
第四天，早上，我们穿过阿肯色州。
We get to Fayetteville in the afternoon.
下午我们到达费耶特维尔。
We have lunch with two old roommates of mine, Brad and Leilani, who take us to a little Trail of Tears marker next to a high school parking lot.
我们和我的两个老室友布拉德和莱拉尼共进午餐，他们带我们去了高中停车场旁边的一个小泪痕标记。
That looks plaque-like, huh?
看起来像牌匾吧？
"On this site in the summer of 1839, there camped 1,000 Cherokees, men, women, and children en and route to their home--"
“1839 年夏天，1,000 名切罗基人在这个地点露营，其中有男人、女人和儿童，他们正在前往家园的路上——”
The sign's facing a semi-circular arrangement of boulders.
该标志正对着半圆形排列的巨石。
Anyone who's ever been to high school would recognize it immediately as the place students go to sneak cigarettes or get stoned.
任何上过高中的人都会立即认出这是学生们偷偷抽烟或吸毒的地方。
And once again, it's striking how the two American tendencies exist side by side, to remember our past and to completely ignore it and have fun.
令人惊讶的是，美国的两种倾向并存，记住我们的过去，却完全忽视它并享受乐趣。
Like how we treat all our national holidays.
就像我们对待所有国定假日的方式一样。
Don't we mourn the dead on Memorial Day with volleyball and sunscreen?
难道我们不是在阵亡将士纪念日用排球和防晒霜来哀悼死者吗？
Don't we, the people, commemorate the 4th of July by setting meat and bottle rockets on fire?
难道我们人民不是通过点燃肉类和瓶子火箭来纪念 7 月 4 日吗？
Which makes a lot of sense, when you remember that a phrase as weird and whimsical as "the pursuit of happiness" sits right there in the second sentence of the founding document of the country.
当你记得建国文件第二句话中的“追求幸福”这样奇怪而异想天开的短语时，这就很有意义了。
[MUSIC - CHUCK BERRY, "BACK IN THE USA"]
[音乐 - 查克·贝里，“回到美国”]
The most happiness I find on the trip is when we're in the car and I can blare the Chuck Berry tape I brought.
我在旅途中找到的最快乐的事情就是当我们在车里时，我可以播放我带来的 Chuck Berry 磁带。
We drive the trail where thousands died, and I listen to the music and think, what are we supposed to do with the grisly past?
我们沿着数千人死亡的小路行驶，我一边听着音乐，一边想，我们应该如何对待可怕的过去呢？
I feel a righteous anger and bitterness about every historical fact of what the American Nation did to the Cherokee.
对于美利坚民族对切罗基人所做的每一个历史事实，我都感到正义的愤怒和痛苦。
But at the same time, I'm an entirely American creature.
但与此同时，我又是一个彻头彻尾的美国人。
I'm in love with this song and the country that gave birth to it.
我爱上了这首歌和诞生这首歌的国家。
Listening to "Back in the USA" while driving the Trail of Tears, I turn it over and over in my head.
一边开车行驶在泪痕之路上，一边听着《回到美国》，我在脑海里翻来覆去。
"It's a good country.
“这是一个好国家。
It's a bad country.
这是一个糟糕的国家。
Good country.
好国家。
Bad country." And of course, it's both.
糟糕的国家。”当然，两者兼而有之。
"Welcome to Oklahoma, Native America." Huh.
“欢迎来到俄克拉荷马州，美国原住民。”呵呵。
I don't remember the signs used to say that.
我不记得以前有这样的标志。
Do you?
你呢？
No. I think, didn't they used to say, "Oklahoma's OK"?
不，我想，他们不是常说“俄克拉荷马州没问题”吗？
Well-- Sarah Vowell That's about right, too.
嗯——莎拉·沃威尔（Sarah Vowell） 这也是对的。
It's OK.
没关系。
[LAUGHTER] Across the state line, we're in the Western Cherokee Nation.
[笑声] 越过州界，我们就到了西切罗基族。
And the maddening thing, the heartbreaking, cruel, sad, cold fact is that northeastern Oklahoma looks exactly like northwestern Georgia.
令人发狂、令人心碎、残酷、悲伤、冷酷的事实是，俄克拉荷马州东北部看起来与佐治亚州西北部一模一样。
Same old trees, same old grassy farmland.
同样的老树，同样古老的草地农田。
The Cherokee walked all this way, crossed rivers, suffered blizzards, buried their dead, and all for what?
切罗基人一路走来，渡过河流，遭受暴风雪，埋葬死者，这一切都是为了什么呢？
The same old land they left.
他们离开的那片古老的土地。
We breeze through Tahlequah, the Cherokee capital.
我们轻快地穿过切罗基首府塔勒阔。
Even though the Trail of Tears officially stops there, our trail won't be over until we get to our hometown, Braggs.
尽管泪水之路正式在此停止，但我们的旅程直到我们到达家乡布拉格才结束。
It's about 20 minutes away, and we plan on spending the evening with our aunts and uncles there.
大约有20分钟的路程，我们计划在那里和叔叔阿姨们一起度过一个晚上。
[KNOCKING ON DOOR] Aunt Lil Come inside, girls.
[敲门]莉尔阿姨进来吧，女孩们。
Hi.
你好。
Aunt Lil It's so good to see you.
莉尔阿姨很高兴见到你。
How are you?
你好吗？
Hi, Aunt.
嗨，阿姨。
Hi, uncles.
嗨，叔叔们。
I wanted to talk to my Uncle John A, my mother's brother.
我想和我舅舅约翰·A 谈谈。
At 74, he's my oldest living relative.
他 74 岁了，是我在世最年长的亲戚。
I asked him about his great grandfather Peter Parson, who came to Oklahoma on the Trail of Tears.
我向他询问了他的曾祖父彼得·帕森（Peter Parson）的情况，他沿着泪水之路来到了俄克拉荷马州。
He was 12 years old, and he grew up here from 12 years old.
他今年12岁，他从12岁就在这里长大。
And he was a stone mason.
他是一名石匠。
And some of his work is still around Tahlequah.
他的一些作品仍然围绕塔勒阔展开。
If you're going up to the village tomorrow, you'll see two big columns.
如果你明天去村子，你会看到两根大柱子。
He built those?
他建造了那些？
John A He built-- he helped build those two columns.
约翰 A 他建造了——他帮助建造了这两根柱子。
See, they built that right after they came up here.
看，他们来到这里后就建造了它。
I didn't know that.
我不知道。
The columns he's talking about, and there are actually three instead of two, are the great symbols of the Cherokee Nation in the West.
他所说的柱子实际上是三根而不是两根，是西方切罗基民族的伟大象征。
For years, I've had an old photograph of them stuck on my refrigerator door.
多年来，我的冰箱门上一直贴着他们的一张旧照片。
They're all that's left of the remains of the Cherokee Female Seminary, the very first public school for girls west of the Mississippi, which my great grandmother attended.
它们是切罗基女子神学院的遗迹，这是密西西比河以西第一所女子公立学校，我的曾祖母曾就读过。
Everything about the journey until now has been a little world historical.
到目前为止，关于旅程的一切都具有一点世界历史意义。
Hearing that our ancestor helped build the columns is the first time I felt an actual familial connection to the story.
听说我们的祖先帮助建造了这些柱子，这是我第一次感受到与这个故事有真正的家族联系。
I ask John A about our family and the Cherokee presence in Oklahoma.
我向约翰 A 询问我们的家庭以及俄克拉荷马州切罗基人的情况。
I ask him a lot of off-topic questions about his service in World War II, mainly because I was dying to.
我问了他很多关于他在二战中服役的离题问题，主要是因为我很想问。
I was never allowed to ask him about it when I was a kid.
当我还是个孩子的时候，我从来不被允许问他这件事。
And then I asked him a mundane reporterly question about whether he thinks the state of Oklahoma has done a good job educating its students about American Indian history.
然后我问了他一个平常的记者问题，即他是否认为俄克拉荷马州在教育学生了解美洲印第安人历史方面做得很好。
He says yes, then jumps into a non sequitur about his own education that I haven't been able to stop thinking about since.
他说是的，然后就开始不合逻辑地谈论他自己的教育，从那以后我就一直在思考这个问题。
I just wish that I could have maybe went to school a lot more.
我只是希望我能上更多的学校。
I didn't get no education.
我没有受过教育。
And that was one of my big faults.
这是我的一大错误。
But when I was growing up, it took everybody to make a living.
但当我长大的时候，每个人都需要谋生。
So I had to work.
所以我必须工作。
There's Hoy, he's got a master's degree in education, and I got the third grade.
霍伊，他获得了教育学硕士学位，而我读了三年级。
Did you know that?
你知道吗？
No, third grade?
不对，三年级？
John A That's all I got, the third grade.
约翰 A：这就是我三年级的全部成绩。
Duke is about third or fourth grade.
杜克大学大约是三四年级。
We didn't get no education.
我们没有受过教育。
So what you learn, you can't afford to forget, you know.
所以你知道，你学到的东西是你无法忘记的。
On this trip, I've been so wrapped up in all the stories of all the deaths on the Trail of Tears.
在这次旅行中，我深深地沉浸在泪水之路上所有死亡的故事中。
Sitting there, listening to my uncle ask what if, I realized that there are lots of ways that lives are pummeled by history.
坐在那里，听叔叔问“如果”怎么办，我意识到生活有很多方式受到历史的打击。
If the Trail of Tears is a glacier that inched its way West, my uncle is one of the boulders it deposited when it stopped.
如果说泪痕是一条慢慢向西移动的冰川，那么我叔叔就是它停止时沉积的巨石之一。
He had to work the farm.
他必须在农场工作。
And then came the dust bowl, and then came the war.
然后是沙尘暴，然后是战争。
All these historical forces bore down on him, but he did not break.
所有这些历史力量都向他袭来，但他没有崩溃。
Compared to him, compared to the people we descend from, I am free of history.
与他相比，与我们的后代相比，我摆脱了历史。
I'm so free of history, I have to get in a car and drive seven states to find it.
我对历史如此游离，我必须开车跑遍七个州才能找到它。
It's good to know where you're from, to know where your beginning is.
知道自己从哪里来、知道自己的起点在哪里是件好事。
And it really probably don't amount all that much, only just to oneself.
而且可能真的没有那么多，只对自己而言。
It has nothing to do with you getting out here, doing what you're gonna do tomorrow, or a week or two from now.
这与你离开这里、做明天或一两周后要做的事情无关。
But at least if you wanna look back, you can look back maybe on this trip and say, well, I was down in the area there, where some of my ancestors originated from.
但至少如果你想回顾过去，你也许可以回顾这次旅行并说，好吧，我就在那个地区，我的一些祖先起源于那里。
Day 5, Tsa-La-Gi.
第五天，察拉吉。
Sarah Vowell Do you remember this, Amy?
莎拉·沃威尔 你还记得这个吗，艾米？
What?
什么？
Sarah Vowell Do you remember this?
莎拉·沃威尔 你还记得这个吗？
Yeah, don't you?
是啊，你不是吗？
Sarah Vowell Yeah.
莎拉·沃威尔 是的。
I mean, we came here once a year.
我的意思是，我们每年来这里一次。
Those columns are a lot smaller than I remembered.
这些柱子比我记忆中的小很多。
I remember them just being these arrows into the sky, and they can't be more than, what, 20 feet tall?
我记得它们只是射向天空的箭，而且它们的高度不会超过，什么，20 英尺？
Look, now we're at-- this is the amphitheater entrance.
看，现在我们在——这是圆形剧场的入口。
Oh, here's where you'd get your program.
哦，这是您获取程序的地方。
Walk up here.
走到这里。
And there's the statue of Sequoyah.
还有塞阔亚的雕像。
Over there is where the Phoenix would rise again.
那里是凤凰再次升起的地方。
Over there-- over there, isn't that-- down there on the right, that's where I remember Stand Watie would-- he was always throwing a fit.
那边——那边，不是吗——在右边，我记得那是瓦蒂站着的地方——他总是发脾气。
I thought he was over there.
我以为他就在那儿。
Sarah Vowell Oh, really?
莎拉·沃威尔 哦，真的吗？
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Sarah Vowell Unfortunately, due to loss of funding, the drama here at Tsa-La-Gi won't be performed this summer.
莎拉·沃威尔 (Sarah Vowell) 不幸的是，由于资金损失，这部在 Tsa-La-Gi 演出的戏剧今年夏天不会上演。
Amy and I sit in the chairs where we first learned about the Trail of Tears and talk about our trip.
艾米和我坐在我们第一次了解泪水之路的椅子上，谈论我们的旅行。
Our experiences were different.
我们的经历不同。
She minored in Native American Studies in college.
她在大学辅修美洲原住民研究。
She not only owns a copy of Black Elk Speaks, she could quote from it.
她不仅拥有一本《黑麋鹿的讲话》，她还可以引用其中的内容。
And for her, the trip was about empathy.
对她来说，这次旅行是关于同理心。
You know, I've been pretty close to tears sometimes, just thinking about the pain or whatever, like what the kids must've been thinking.
你知道，有时我一想到痛苦之类的事情就想哭，就像孩子们一定在想的那样。
Like, when we were driving, I just kept imagining the kids saying, where are we going?
就像，当我们开车时，我一直想象孩子们说，我们要去哪里？
Where are we going?
我们要去哪里？
You know?
你知道？
Like, what is happening?
就像，发生了什么事？
I guess I've been thinking about what it really must've been like.
我想我一直在思考它到底是什么样子的。
I've been thinking about those kids, too.
我也一直在想那些孩子。
But the person I identify with most in this history is John Ross, the principal chief during the Trail of Tears, because he was caught between the two nations.
但在这段历史中，我最认同的人是约翰·罗斯，他是泪水之路期间的主要酋长，因为他夹在两国之间。
He believed in the possibilities of the American Constitution enough to make sure the Cherokee had one, too.
他对美国宪法的可能性充满信心，足以确保切罗基人也拥有这样的可能性。
He believed in the liberties the Declaration of Independence promises and the civil rights the Constitution ensures.
他相信《独立宣言》所承诺的自由和《宪法》所保障的公民权利。
And when the US betrayed not only the Cherokee but its own creed, I would guess that John Ross was not only angry, not only outraged, not only confused.
当美国不仅背叛了切罗基人，还背叛了自己的信条时，我猜约翰·罗斯不仅生气，不仅愤怒，而且困惑。
I would guess that John Ross was a little brokenhearted.
我猜约翰·罗斯有点心碎。
Because that's how I feel.
因为这就是我的感受。
I've been experiencing the Trail of Tears not as a Cherokee, but as an American.
我不是作为一个切罗基人，而是作为一个美国人，经历了泪水之路。
John Ridge, one of the signers of the Treaty of New Echota, once prophesied, "Cherokee blood, if not destroyed, will wind its courses in beings of fair complexions, who will read that their ancestors became civilized under the frowns of misfortunes and the causes of their enemies."
《新埃科塔条约》的签署者之一约翰·里奇曾经预言：“切罗基人的血统如果不被消灭，将会在肤色白皙的人身上蜿蜒流淌，他们会读到他们的祖先在不幸和敌人的原因下变得文明。”
He was talking about people like my sister and me.
他正在谈论像我和我妹妹这样的人。
The story of the Trail of Tears, like the story of America, is as complicated as our Cherokee, Swedish, Scottish, English, French Seminole family tree.
泪水之路的故事，就像美国的故事一样，就像我们的切罗基人、瑞典人、苏格兰人、英国人、法国塞米诺尔人的家谱一样复杂。
Just as our blood will never be pure, the Trail of Tears will never make sense.
正如我们的血液永远不会纯净一样，泪痕也永远没有意义。
Sarah Vowell, she printed a version of this story about the Trail of Tears in her book, Take the Cannoli, Stories from the New World.
莎拉·沃威尔 (Sarah Vowell) 在她的书《Take the Cannoli, Stories from the New World》中出版了这个关于泪痕的故事的版本。
But in the years since she told this story on the radio, she has written a number of surprisingly funny books, retelling some very grim American history.
但自从她在广播中讲述这个故事以来，她写了许多令人惊讶的有趣书籍，重述了一些非常严峻的美国历史。
The Wordy Shipmates about the Puritans, a book on LaFayette, another book on Hawaii, one called Assassination Vacation.
关于清教徒的《罗嗦船友》，一本关于拉斐特的书，另一本关于夏威夷的书，一本叫做《刺杀假期》。
Just Google, and you'll see what I'm talking about.
只要谷歌一下，你就会明白我在说什么。
Today's program was produced by Julie Snyder and myself, with Nancy Updike and Alix Spiegel.
今天的节目由朱莉·斯奈德和我本人、南希·厄普代克和阿利克斯·斯皮格尔共同制作。
Senior editor for this show, Paul Tough.
该节目的高级编辑 Paul Tough。
Contributing editors for today's show, Jack Hitt, Margy Rochlin, and Consigliere, Sarah Vowell.
今天节目的特约编辑是 Jack Hitt、Margy Rochlin 和顾问 Sarah Vowell。
Production help from Pat Hannah, Laura Doggit, and Sylvia Lemus.
Pat Hannah、Laura Doggit 和 Sylvia Lemus 为制作提供帮助。
Additional help on this rerun by Emanuele Berry, Noor Gill, Diane Wu, Nick Mott, Stowe Nelson, and Matt Tierney.
Emanuele Berry、Noor Gill、Diane Wu、Nick Mott、Stowe Nelson 和 Matt Tierney 对本次重播提供了额外帮助。
Special thanks today to Ben Loyd, Leilani Schweitzer, and Brad Summerhill, Pat and Jenny Vowell, and to Sarah's sister, Amy.
今天特别感谢本·洛伊德、莱拉尼·施韦策、布拉德·萨默希尔、帕特和珍妮·沃威尔，以及莎拉的妹妹艾米。
Lucian Truscott IV, who you heard at the beginning of the show talking about Monticello is a columnist at Salon who wrote about monuments to Jefferson for The New York Times.
卢西恩·特拉斯科特四世（Lucian Truscott IV），你在节目开始时听到他谈论蒙蒂塞洛，是沙龙的一位专栏作家，他为《纽约时报》撰写了有关杰斐逊纪念碑的文章。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org, where you can listen to any of our over 700 programs for absolutely free.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org，您可以在其中完全免费收听我们 700 多个节目中的任何一个。
Thanks as always to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia, who today is hearing our program from Chattanooga and asks--
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人托里·马拉蒂亚 (Torey Malatia) 先生，他今天在查塔努加听到我们的项目并询问——
Is it just me, or is this show even better in the Choo Choo?
是只有我这么觉得，还是Choo Choo这个节目更好？
I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life.
我是艾拉·格拉斯，下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。