713: Made to Be Broken - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #713 | August 7, 2020 713: Made to Be Broken Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 713 集 | 2020 年 8 月 7 日 713：为破碎而生 注：《This American Life》是为耳朵而生，旨在让人们听到。
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如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Sean Cole From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
序言：序言 来自 WBEZ 芝加哥的 Sean Cole，这就是《美国生活》。
I'm Sean Cole sitting in for Ira Glass.
我是肖恩·科尔，代理艾拉·格拉斯。
And our show today is about rules and when it might be OK to break them, when it's even right to break them.
我们今天的节目是关于规则的，以及什么时候可以打破它们，什么时候打破它们甚至是正确的。
About a year ago, summer 2019, my friend Benjamen Walker was in Nairobi, in Kenya, working on this project with some folks from the London School of Economics.
大约一年前，也就是 2019 年夏天，我的朋友 Benjamen Walker 在肯尼亚内罗毕与伦敦经济学院的一些人一起开展这个项目。
And about four days into his trip, he found himself downtown, idly walking past this big, huge recreation area called Uhuru Park.
旅行大约四天后，他发现自己来到了市中心，悠闲地走过这个名为乌胡鲁公园的巨大休闲区。
How many of them were there?
他们有多少人？
Benjamen Walker Like 300.
本杰明·沃克喜欢《300》。
And the thing they were protesting was Uber.
他们抗议的是 Uber。
They were Uber drivers on strike.
他们是罢工的 Uber 司机。
Like I said, 2019.
就像我说的，2019 年。
You might remember there were a lot of Uber strikes all over the world around this time.
您可能还记得，当时世界各地发生了很多 Uber 罢工。
Uber had been in Kenya for about four years, and these drivers had the same complaint that's followed the company wherever it's gone.
Uber 进入肯尼亚大约四年了，无论该公司走到哪里，这些司机都有着同样的抱怨。
Uber makes too much off the rides.
优步从乘车服务中赚得太多。
They make too little.
他们赚得太少了。
They want more of the pie.
他们想要更多的蛋糕。
And they were mad.
他们很生气。
Benjamen waded into the crowd of strikers with a microphone because that's what he does.
本杰曼拿着麦克风走进了罢工人群，因为这就是他所做的。
He hosts a podcast you might have heard of called Benjamen Walker's Theory of Everything.
您可能听说过他主持的播客，名为本杰明·沃克的万物理论。
And this story was right up his alley.
这个故事正合他的胃口。
He's done lots of stories about the gig economy and its discontents.
他写了很多关于零工经济及其不满的故事。
This one driver, Jafar, said one thing that would get them more money is rules, more rules.
这位名叫贾法尔的司机说，能让他们赚更多钱的一件事就是规则，更多的规则。
It is just about regulations, number one, number two, regulations, number three, regulations.
这只是关于法规，第一，第二，法规，第三，法规。
We need regulations from the government.
我们需要政府的监管。
Because when you are regulated, you cannot come over here, make money, vote in New York Stock Exchange, flow to your whatever-- IPO-- and investor billionaires come and take.
因为当你受到监管时，你不能来这里赚钱，不能在纽约证券交易所投票，不能流向你的任何东西——首次公开募股——投资者亿万富翁会过来拿走。
Yeah?
是的？
Yeah.
是的。
Jafar And when we have regulations, we will never see a driver working 18 hours a day.
Jafar 当我们有规定时，我们永远不会看到司机每天工作 18 小时。
Are we together?
我们在一起吗？
How do you win?
你怎么赢？
That's what I want to know.
这就是我想知道的。
How do you win?
你怎么赢？
Solidarity.
团结一致。
Sean Cole That was another driver there.
肖恩·科尔 那是那里的另一位司机。
Solidarity means everyone participating in the work stoppage.
团结就是大家都参与停工。
Except from what Benjamen saw that week, there were plenty of other Uber drivers still out working.
除了本杰门那周看到的情况外，还有很多其他 Uber 司机仍在工作。
In fact, even as they were all standing there, 300 strong, protesting against Uber--
事实上，即使他们 300 人都站在那里抗议 Uber——
We are now on strike, and there's another guy carrying passenger around--
我们现在正在罢工，还有另一个人载着乘客到处走--
No, no. Driver 1 You see, there is car here packed with passenger.
不，不。司机1 你看，这里有一辆车挤满了乘客。
Oh, no. Benjamen Walker So there is, like, a road that goes through this part of the park.
哦，不。本杰明·沃克 (Benjamen Walker) 因此，有一条路穿过公园的这一部分。
And some guy, Uber driver, decided to go through the protest.
一些人，优步司机，决定参加抗议活动。
Through the protest?
通过抗议？
Benjamen Walker Yeah.
本杰明·沃克 是的。
And they know he's an Uber driver how?
他们怎么知道他是优步司机？
He has the little Uber sign in his window or something?
他的窗户上有 Uber 的小标志什么的？
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊，是啊，是啊，是啊。
And they swarm his car.
他们蜂拥而至他的车。
And then--
然后——
[AIR HISSING] --they let the air out of the tires.
[空气嘶嘶声]——他们把轮胎里的气放掉了。
That's how I'm going to deal with them.
这就是我要对付他们的方式。
Let the car stay down, eh?
让车停下来，好吗？
And what did the guy do?
那家伙做了什么？
Benjamen Walker He seemed pretty upset.
本杰明·沃克（Benjamen Walker） 他看起来很沮丧。
He kind of sat there in shock for a while.
他震惊地坐在那里好一会儿。
He stayed in his car.
他留在车里。
Benjamen Walker He got out.
本杰明·沃克 他下了车。
Eventually, even some of the protesters helped him move it out of the way.
最终，甚至一些抗议者也帮助他把它移开。
Of course.
当然。
He's still our brother, anyway.
无论如何，他仍然是我们的兄弟。
Good or bad, he's still our brother.
无论好坏，他仍然是我们的兄弟。
We fight them, and we help them at the same time.
我们与他们战斗，同时帮助他们。
Yes.
是的。
Sean Cole This was one of two Uber drivers that tried to drive through the middle of the protest while Benjamen was there.
肖恩·科尔 (Sean Cole) 是两名 Uber 司机之一，他试图在本杰门 (Benjamen) 现场的情况下开车穿过抗议活动中心。
And one of the protesters said, oh, the reason they're still driving is that with all of us on strike, the surge pricing kicked in.
一名抗议者说，哦，他们仍在开车的原因是，随着我们所有人都罢工，价格上涨了。
So the ones who keep at it make more money, which is to say it's hard to beat Uber at this game.
因此，坚持下去的人会赚更多的钱，也就是说，在这场游戏中很难击败 Uber。
House always wins.
豪斯总是赢。
But then as they all stood around discussing this, one of the drivers told Benjamen about a kind of a workaround they had up their sleeve-- a cheat code.
但当他们都站在一起讨论这个问题时，其中一位司机告诉本杰门他们有一种解决方法——作弊码。
So, all right, now I have a question for you.
那么，好吧，现在我有一个问题要问你。
So the last two days, I took some Ubers, I told you, when I was here.
我告诉过你，当我在这里的时候，过去两天我乘坐了一些优步。
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊，是啊。
Benjamen Walker So I'm here till Thursday.
本杰明·沃克（Benjamen Walker） 我会在这里待到星期四。
I'm not going to take another Uber.
我不会再乘坐 Uber 了。
What do I do, just find a taxi driver at the hotel?
我该怎么办，在酒店找出租车司机？
And he's like, oh, you can just go karura.
他说，哦，你可以去卡鲁拉了。
Karura is the way we normally call it.
Karura 是我们通常所说的方式。
It's our language.
这是我们的语言。
Karura, you get a rider.
卡鲁拉，你有一个骑手。
You look at the estimate.
你看一下估计。
You switch off the app.
您关闭该应用程序。
You go with the estimate, which means Uber will not get the commission.
你按照估算去做，这意味着 Uber 不会获得佣金。
So just to be clear, imagine you request a ride, and it automatically shows you how much it's going to cost.
因此，为了清楚起见，想象一下您叫车，它会自动向您显示费用是多少。
And when the driver shows up, you say to them, how about I hit cancel on the app and just give you the estimate in cash, cutting out the middleman?
当司机出现时，你对他们说，我在应用程序上点击取消，直接给你现金估价，省去中间商怎么样？
That is what we call karura.
这就是我们所说的卡鲁拉。
Benjamen Walker So if I was to say to a driver, I want to go karura, is that how I would say it?
Benjamen Walker 那么，如果我对司机说，我想去 karura，我会这么说吗？
Yes, yes, can you go karura?
是的，是的，你能去卡鲁拉吗？
[LAUGHS] Yeah, you can tell the driver, can you go karura?
[笑]是的，你可以告诉司机，你可以去卡鲁拉吗？
He'll understand.
他会明白的。
Hold on.
坚持，稍等。
Wait, wait, wait.
等等，等等，等等。
I want to-- all right, so this ride-- hey, where's my ride?
我想——好吧，所以这次骑行——嘿，我的骑行在哪里？
My ride is 380, OK?
我的行程是380，可以吗？
Mm-hm.
嗯嗯。
Benjamen Walker I want to give you 400, and we go karura.
Benjamen Walker 我想给你 400，然后我们去卡鲁拉。
And I cancel.
我取消了。
OK.
好的。
Benjamen Walker All right, cool.
本杰明·沃克 好吧，酷。
So I canceled it.
所以我取消了它。
Yep.
是的。
It felt great.
感觉棒极了。
On the one hand, it solves all of my problems for the rest of this trip.
一方面，它解决了我此行剩余时间的所有问题。
But also, I almost feel like I've gotten the answer to my question, because I wanted to know how you win.
而且，我几乎感觉我已经得到了问题的答案，因为我想知道你是如何获胜的。
And there's something about going karura, which is basically using the tools against the company.
还有一些关于去卡鲁拉（karura）的事情，这基本上是使用这些工具来对抗公司。
I mean, it's great.
我的意思是，这太棒了。
And it's subversive.
这是颠覆性的。
One of the protesters referred to it as economic sabotage-- i.e., until we get more rules governing Uber, we're going to break some.
一名抗议者将其称为经济破坏——也就是说，在我们制定更多管理 Uber 的规则之前，我们将打破一些规则。
I asked Uber if I could talk to a company rep in Kenya about going karura.
我问 Uber 是否可以与肯尼亚的公司代表讨论如何使用 karura。
A spokesperson for all of sub-Saharan Africa wrote back, saying, in part, "Repeat canceling by either a driver or rider could be flagged by our fraud technology, which will then result in an investigation." She also said it's not safe to go off app for the passengers or the drivers-- which, for the record, some of the drivers will tell you too that they don't like to do it, because having a record of the trip is safer for them.
撒哈拉以南非洲地区的一位发言人在回信中表示，“我们的欺诈技术可能会标记司机或乘客重复取消订单的情况，然后进行调查。”她还表示，对于乘客或司机来说，关闭应用程序并不安全——郑重声明，一些司机也会告诉你，他们不喜欢这样做，因为有旅行记录对他们来说更安全。
Of course, going under the radar like this isn't really anything that novel.
当然，像这样躲在雷达之下并不是什么新鲜事。
Cab drivers in New York will sometimes say, hey, how about I turn off the meter and you pay me in cash?
纽约的出租车司机有时会说，嘿，我关掉计价器，你用现金付给我怎么样？
But they don't have a name for it.
但他们没有名字。
Benjamen and I both wondered, you know, why karura?
本杰明和我都想知道，你知道，为什么是卡鲁拉？
It's the name of a forest in Nairobi, Karura Forest, but none of the drivers Benjamen rode with could really explain it beyond that.
这是内罗毕一座森林的名字，卡鲁拉森林，但与本杰曼一起骑行的车手中没有一个人能真正解释这一点。
OK, I don't know who came up with that name.
好吧，我不知道这个名字是谁想出来的。
And when I started calling around to drivers and transport officials in Nairobi, this funny thing happened.
当我开始打电话给内罗毕的司机和交通官员时，有趣的事情发生了。
Karura, yeah.
卡鲁拉，是的。
[LAUGHS] That's what we call it.
[笑]这就是我们所说的。
All of them giggled when I said it.
当我这么说的时候，他们都咯咯地笑了。
Like, oh, that.
就像，哦，那个。
You want to know about that?
你想知道吗？
How do you know about that?
你怎么知道的？
And one of the drivers said, oh, you can go karura.
一位司机说，哦，你可以去卡鲁拉。
Yeah, it's called-- [LAUGHS] Driver 2 Yeah, karura.
是的，它叫——[笑] Driver 2 是的，karura。
I know karura.
我认识卡鲁拉。
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
Yeah.
是的。
[LAUGHS] Karura.
[笑]卡鲁拉。
Sean Cole One of them told me before Uber came to town, those informal taxis that you haggle with, a lot of them stationed themselves around Karura Forest.
其中一位肖恩·科尔 (Sean Cole) 告诉我，在 Uber 进城之前，那些你讨价还价的非正式出租车，很多都停在卡鲁拉森林 (Karura Forest) 周围。
So now it was a kind of catch-all phrase for paying any sort of driver under the table.
所以现在它成了一种包罗万象的短语，用来指代私下向任何类型的司机支付费用。
That's the most rational explanation.
这是最合理的解释。
But there was this other explanation that came from a driver who I'm calling Roger.
但还有一位司机提出了另一种解释，我叫他罗杰。
He's 30 years old, has a one-year-old son, been driving since Uber first came to Kenya.
他今年 30 岁，有一个一岁的儿子，自从 Uber 首次来到肯尼亚以来，他就一直在开车。
He's also a graphic designer, has a degree in business and IT.
他还是一名平面设计师，拥有商业和 IT 学位。
He's worked in the hotel industry.
他曾在酒店行业工作。
He's done a lot of things.
他做了很多事情。
So we're assuming these are laws that we just got from the forest.
所以我们假设这些是我们刚刚从森林中得到的法则。
So it's quote, unquote, "jungle law." Let me call it jungle law.
所以这就是“丛林法则”。让我称之为丛林法则。
You're saying jungle law?
你说丛林法则？
Roger Yes, jungle law.
罗杰 是的，丛林法则。
So it's something not allowed, and again, it's something not in the constitution of Uber.
所以这是不允许的，而且这也不属于 Uber 的章程。
I see.
我懂了。
So if Uber are the authorities, then karura is sort of skirting the authorities.
因此，如果 Uber 是当局，那么 karura 就有点回避当局了。
Yeah.
是的。
Sean Cole How does that feel when you're going karura versus using the app?
Sean Cole：当你使用 karura 与使用该应用程序时，感觉如何？
You see, it's a nice feeling.
你看，这种感觉真好。
Let me say that, because you're having an extra coin.
让我这么说吧，因为你多了一枚硬币。
Extra coin.
额外的硬币。
Roger And you just feel like you've worked for it, and you don't-- and nobody else deserve to get a share of it.
罗杰：你只是觉得你已经为之努力了，但你并没有——而且没有其他人值得分享它。
I can say you feel empowered in terms of you feel like you're open-minded entrepreneur.
我可以说，你感觉自己充满力量，因为你感觉自己是一个思想开放的企业家。
Entrepreneur, yeah.
企业家，是的。
Roger Reason being, the company wants this, and the client wants this.
罗杰原因是，公司想要这个，客户也想要这个。
So what do you do?
那么你做什么呢？
You have to open up your mind and either to take the decision to make an extra coin or probably to listen to the company and go home empty-handed.
你必须敞开心扉，要么决定多赚点钱，要么可能听公司的话空手而归。
Right, it's up to you at that point.
是的，到时候就看你的了。
You have to make--
你必须做——
Yes, it's up to you.
是的，这取决于你。
Sean Cole --an independent decision.
肖恩·科尔——一个独立的决定。
Yes.
是的。
Sean Cole But it is breaking a rule.
肖恩·科尔 但这违反了规则。
Yes, yes, yes, it is.
是的，是的，是的，是的。
Sean Cole I mean, I guess I wonder if that factors into the decision making of like, well, I know it's a rule.
肖恩·科尔（Sean Cole）我的意思是，我想我想知道这是否会影响决策，就像，嗯，我知道这是一条规则。
Should I break this rule?
我应该打破这个规则吗？
Like, we're supposed to follow rules and everything.
就像，我们应该遵守规则和一切。
Because, you see, at the end of the day, the reason why you get up and decide to get into business is, at the end of the day, you get home with something, you see?
因为，你看，在一天结束时，你起床并决定开始做生意的原因是，在一天结束时，你带着一些东西回家，你明白吗？
So if you decide your priority is following rules, most of the days you're going to get home empty-handed.
因此，如果您决定优先考虑遵守规则，那么大多数时候您都会空手而归。
And most of us are young families.
我们大多数人都是年轻家庭。
You see, we have wives.
你看，我们有妻子。
We have kids in the house.
我们家里有孩子。
So if you decide that you're going to be strict to the letter, that you're going to follow all the rules, believe you me, your family is going to sleep hungry.
所以，如果你决定严格遵守所有规则，相信我，你的家人就会饿着肚子睡觉。
It's not just empowering to break the rules sometimes.
有时，这不仅仅是赋予打破规则的权力。
Sometimes it's necessary to break the rules-- or anyway, it feels like it is.
有时有必要打破规则——或者无论如何，感觉确实如此。
And today on our show, we have stories of people defying regulations, violating the social contract to make a point, and in one case, to strike out against the inequities of a sixth grade class.
今天在我们的节目中，我们讲述了人们为了表达观点而藐视法规、违反社会契约的故事，其中一个例子是为了反对六年级班级的不平等。
Please stay with us.
请留在我们身边。
Act One, Time Bandit.
第一幕，时间强盗。
There was a moment this year when I watched someone break the rules right in front of me in the most dramatic way.
今年有一个时刻，我看到有人在我面前以最戏剧性的方式打破规则。
Dramatic is the operative word because it was during a performance.
戏剧性是关键词，因为那是在表演期间。
It wasn't just in front of me.
它不只是在我面前。
There were hundreds of people in the audience.
观众中有数百人。
This was during an event that I go to every year, if I can make it, on New Year's Day.
这是我每年元旦都会参加的一次活动，如果我能参加的话。
It's a 10-hour-long marathon of performances-- I call it a marathon-- at the St. Mark's Poetry Project in a 200-year-old church in Lower Manhattan.
这是一场长达 10 小时的马拉松式表演——我称之为马拉松——在曼哈顿下城一座拥有 200 年历史的教堂里的圣马可诗歌项目中进行。
So imagine a soaring, cavernous sanctuary with a podium on the altar up front.
因此，想象一下一个高耸的洞穴庇护所，前面的祭坛上有一个讲台。
Mostly, the marathon is set up as a kind of churn.
大多数情况下，马拉松比赛被设置为一种搅动。
There are more than 150 people on the program.
该计划有超过 150 人。
And it's not just poetry readings, but bands play, and there are choreographers and comedians.
不仅仅是诗歌朗诵，还有乐队演奏，还有编舞和喜剧演员。
I've seen Patti Smith perform there and Philip Glass.
我看过帕蒂·史密斯和菲利普·格拉斯在那里表演。
And everybody only gets two to three minutes each to read, or play, or whatever.
每个人只有两到三分钟的时间来阅读、玩耍或其他什么。
The time limit's a big deal, because they need to fit everybody in.
时间限制很重要，因为他们需要让每个人都适应。
Occasionally, someone gets on stage in between acts and tells everybody to keep it short.
偶尔，有人在演出间隙上台并告诉大家要简短一点。
Anyway, the sort of rule-shattering moment that happened was not one of the famouses onstage.
无论如何，所发生的那种打破规则的时刻并不是舞台上的名人之一。
It was somebody I'd never heard of.
这是一个我从未听说过的人。
Jerome Ellis is a composer, performer, and writer.
杰罗姆·埃利斯是一位作曲家、表演家和作家。
His recent work--
他最近的作品——
Jerome Ellis, composer and musician, but he didn't have an instrument with him or even anything to read off of.
杰罗姆·埃利斯（Jerome Ellis），作曲家和音乐家，但他没有随身携带乐器，甚至没有任何可以朗读的东西。
He just climbed up on stage, stood in front of the mic.
他刚刚爬上舞台，站在麦克风前。
And I have to admit, I was really just looking down at my program and not paying attention when he started talking.
我必须承认，当他开始说话时，我真的只是低头看着我的程序，没有注意。
The Brazilian state of Mato Grosso do Sul has a law mandating that cell phone companies offer a 50%--
巴西南马托格罗索州有一项法律规定手机公司提供 50% 的佣金——
And then he stopped talking, like for a while.
然后他停止说话，有一段时间。
And I think it was at this point that I looked up and saw him sort of staring, wide eyed, maybe trembling a bit.
我想正是在这个时候，我抬起头，看到他有点凝视，睁大眼睛，也许还有点颤抖。
I'm playing this in real time, by the way.
顺便说一句，我正在实时玩这个。
Normally, I'd edit these silences down, but I wanted to give you a sense of how confusing this was at first, and uncomfortable.
通常情况下，我会编辑这些沉默，但我想让你感觉到一开始这是多么令人困惑和不舒服。
50%-- Sean Cole I had no idea what was going on.
50%——肖恩·科尔（Sean Cole） 我不知道发生了什么。
So far he had said, "The Brazilian state of Mato Grosso do Sul has a law mandating that cell phone companies offer a 50%--"
到目前为止，他曾说过，“巴西南马托格罗索州有一项法律，规定手机公司提供 50% 的佣金——”
--discount to-- Sean Cole And then you can hear he's doing these kind of little, breathy clicks and pops.
--折扣给-- Sean Cole 然后你可以听到他正在演奏这些带有呼吸声的咔哒声和砰砰声。
And I was like, oh, it's some performance art thing, like cell phone companies' spotty coverage in Brazil.
我当时想，哦，这是一些行为艺术，就像手机公司在巴西的信号覆盖不稳定一样。
To their customers-- Sean Cole "With 50% discount to their customers."
致他们的客户 - Sean Cole “为客户提供 50% 的折扣。”
With-- Sean Cole And then he breaks into Portuguese.
和——肖恩·科尔 然后他开始说葡萄牙语。
[SPEAKING PORTUGUESE] --customers with breaks in the timing and fluency of speech.
[说葡萄牙语]——说话的时间和流畅度有断断续续的客户。
That is, the customers who have speech impediments, like myself.
也就是像我这样有语言障碍的顾客。
So that's what was going on.
这就是发生的事情。
Jerome Ellis They have to-- the customer has to present--
杰罗姆·埃利斯：他们必须——客户必须展示——
Jerome has a stutter.
杰罗姆有口吃。
Jerome Ellis --a signed statement from a speech language--
杰罗姆·埃利斯——用演讲语言签署的声明——
A significant one.
一个重要的。
Jerome Ellis Speech language-- speech language pathologist to prove their pathology.
Jerome Ellis 言语语言——言语语言病理学家证明了他们的病理学。
I first encountered this law in a book about strange laws from around the world.
我第一次遇到这个定律是在一本关于世界各地奇怪定律的书中。
The author of the book was mocking the law.
这本书的作者在嘲笑法律。
But I see in the law an attempt to address the issue of temporal accessibility--
但我在法律中看到了解决时间可及性问题的尝试——
Temporal accessibility.
时间可达性。
Jerome Ellis --when it comes to-- when it comes-- when it comes-- when it comes to disabled speech.
杰罗姆·埃利斯（Jerome Ellis）--当谈到--当谈到--当谈到--当谈到残疾言语时。
So when I was first invited to participate in this magnificent event, I was struck by the two-minute time limit, which later became a two- to three-minute time limit.
所以当我第一次被邀请参加这个盛大的活动时，我对两分钟的时间限制感到震惊，后来变成了两到三分钟的时间限制。
And I understood intuitively that the purpose of this time limit was to create as non-hierarchical a space as possible.
我直觉地理解，这个时间限制的目的是为了创造一个尽可能无等级的空间。
But in removing one hierarchy, the time limit introduces another.
但在消除一种等级制度的同时，时间限制也引入了另一种等级制度。
A time limit assumes that all people have relatively equal access to time through their speech, which is not true.
时间限制假设所有人都有相对平等的机会通过演讲获得时间，但事实并非如此。
Stuttering is very unpredictable.
口吃是非常难以预测的。
I can rehearse something as many times as I want, but I don't actually know how long it will take to say anything until I have to say it.
我可以根据自己的需要排练某件事多少次，但实际上我不知道要花多长时间才能说出某件事，直到我必须说出来。
What you just heard is about half of Jerome's performance as he performed it that night, my commentary not withstanding.
你刚刚听到的是杰罗姆那天晚上表演的大约一半，尽管我有评论。
It clocks in at about five minutes, practically twice the length permitted itself.
它的计时时间约为五分钟，几乎是允许长度的两倍。
I'll play you the second half in a bit.
稍后我会给你上半场比赛。
But in just those five minutes, I'd gone from barely paying attention to being totally rapt.
但仅仅在那五分钟内，我就从几乎不注意变成了完全全神贯注。
Everybody was.
每个人都是。
The pauses continued, some of them longer than what you just heard.
停顿还在继续，其中一些比你刚才听到的还要长。
And in an enormous room packed with people, there was barely any other sound.
偌大的房间里挤满了人，几乎没有任何其他声音。
I don't remember hearing a cough or a paper rustle.
我不记得听到过咳嗽声或纸张沙沙声。
We were all just kind of spellbound-- partly, I think, because as Jerome said himself, what was happening on stage seemed so very unpredictable.
我们都有点着迷——我想，部分原因是正如杰罗姆自己所说，舞台上发生的事情似乎非常不可预测。
That's what it felt like in the audience.
这就是观众的感觉。
And in the weeks and months since then, I realized I just had all these questions for Jerome, the way you wish you could call up the person who made the weird, obscure movie you just saw that you can't get out of your head or who wrote the book you just read.
从那以后的几周和几个月里，我意识到我对杰罗姆有所有这些问题，就像你希望你能打电话给制作你刚刚看过的那部让你无法忘怀的奇怪、晦涩的电影的人或写了你刚刚读过的书的人一样。
I just wanted to know how he thought of what he did, how it felt to do that.
我只是想知道他是如何看待他所做的事情的，以及这样做的感觉如何。
Hey.
嘿。
How are you?
你好吗？
Jerome Ellis I'm doing well.
杰罗姆·埃利斯 我做得很好。
So I called him on Skype.
所以我通过 Skype 给他打电话。
He's got the friendliest face and hadn't had a haircut in a while, like everybody.
他有一张最友善的脸，而且和其他人一样，已经有一段时间没有理发了。
Jerome told me he got the idea after the director of The Poetry Project sent him an email inviting him to perform and mentioned the time limit.
杰罗姆告诉我，他是在诗歌项目总监给他发了一封电子邮件邀请他表演并提到时间限制后产生了这个想法。
And just reading that gave him this twinge of stress.
光是读这些就给他带来了一丝压力。
And I was like-- I was like-- I noted the stress.
我就像——我就像——我注意到了压力。
And I was like, oh, I think I'm interested in going towards that stress and exploring that.
我当时想，哦，我想我有兴趣面对这种压力并探索它。
He says, that confusion I felt at first, that's what he was going for.
他说，我一开始感到的困惑正是他想要的。
Because it's so common for people to have that feeling upon meeting him.
因为人们在见到他时有这种感觉是很常见的。
They don't know what's going on until he tells them.
在他告诉他们之前，他们不知道发生了什么事。
It's not easy to bring hundreds of people simultaneously into an experience you live everyday, but he managed it.
让数百人同时体验你每天的生活并不容易，但他做到了。
I also wondered if he had kind of improvised what he was going to say, but he says he wrote it all out ahead of time and rehearsed it, reading it off his phone while walking down the street, which was way easier than reciting it onstage, he says.
我还想知道他是否即兴创作了自己要说的话，但他说他提前把所有内容写下来并排练，在街上行走时用手机读出来，这比在舞台上背诵要容易得多，他说。
What was the shortest amount of time that it took when you were preparing, when you were rehearsing it?
当你准备、排练的时候，最短的时间是多少？
I would say-- I would say two and 1/2 minutes.
我会说——我会说两又 1/2 分钟。
Two and 1/2 minutes, got it.
两又 1/2 分钟，明白了。
Jerome Ellis Yeah.
杰罗姆·埃利斯 是的。
And that was important to him, he says, to write something that someone who didn't stutter could recite within the time limit.
他说，写一些不口吃的人可以在规定的时间内背诵的东西对他来说很重要。
So in that way he was simultaneously adhering to the rules and breaking them at the same time.
因此，他既遵守规则，又违反规则。
And since stuttering is unpredictable, Jerome says there was a chance the whole thing could have taken him only four minutes.
由于口吃是不可预测的，杰罗姆说，整个事情可能只花了他四分钟。
Then it was a funny situation, where stuttering less might have made it harder for people to understand the point he was trying to make.
然后这是一个有趣的情况，口吃减少可能会让人们更难理解他试图表达的观点。
I figured simply being on stage would make him more likely to stutter, but Jerome says no.
我认为仅仅在舞台上就会让他更容易口吃，但杰罗姆说不。
It's, in fact, quite soothing to be on stage because it's like-- you know, it's like I actually feel that I'm-- that I have the time.
事实上，在舞台上感觉非常舒缓，因为就像——你知道，我真的觉得我——我有时间。
And in some ways, the stage-- the stage-audience relationship is a more temporally accessible environment than other environments of verbal-- verbal-- verbal-- verbal communication that I engage with.
在某些方面，舞台——舞台——观众关系是一个比我所参与的其他语言——语言——语言——语言交流环境更容易进入的环境。
Like when he worked at the Columbia Law Library, just to give you some background of his life offstage.
就像他在哥伦比亚法律图书馆工作时一样，只是为了向您介绍他的幕后生活背景。
Jerome worked at the circulation desk.
杰罗姆在流通台工作。
And not only did he have to take in calls, but he had to transfer calls to other people.
而且他不仅要接听电话，还要把电话转给其他人。
So answering the phone, that's one temporal expectation.
所以接电话，这是一种暂时的期望。
And then having to explain to someone else who's calling while the first person's on hold, now he's squashed between two temporal expectations.
然后，当第一个人处于等待状态时，他必须向其他打电话的人解释，现在他被挤压在两个暂时的期望之间。
It was stressful.
压力很大。
Also, this show and radio in general is not usually an accessible environment for differently-abled speakers.
此外，对于能力不同的演讲者来说，这个节目和广播通常不是一个可以访问的环境。
I'm leaving in a lot of Jerome's stutters in the interview part of this story, but I'm still cutting out some of his pauses and repeats-- and mine, for that matter.
我在这个故事的采访部分保留了杰罗姆的很多口吃，但我仍然删掉了他的一些停顿和重复——就这一点而言，还有我的。
As a group of professionals, we're biased toward more fluid talkers.
作为一群专业人士，我们偏向于语言流畅的人。
I became acutely aware of that while editing our conversation.
在编辑我们的谈话时，我敏锐地意识到了这一点。
And just to let you know, I tried to quote, unquote, "clean up" his answers as little as possible because I want to bring you into Jerome's daily experience too.
只是为了让你知道，我试图尽可能少地引用、取消引用、“清理”他的答案，因为我也想让你了解杰罗姆的日常经历。
Anyway, I think Jerome stuttered less than usual on the call with me because I know he stutters.
无论如何，我认为杰罗姆在与我通话时结巴的次数比平常少，因为我知道他结巴。
He says it helps to disclose it, relaxes him.
他说，披露这些信息有助于让他放松。
And then there are other subtler ways that he's able to tame it sometimes when he's talking to people.
有时当他与人交谈时，他还可以通过其他更微妙的方式来控制这种情绪。
Sometimes I refer to it as "my stutter," but sometimes I refer to it as "the stutter."
有时我将其称为“我的口吃”，但有时我将其称为“口吃”。
The stutter.
口吃。
Jerome Ellis Because to me, stuttering is not bound to my body, that it is a phenomenon that occurs between me and whoever I'm speaking to.
杰罗姆·埃利斯：因为对我来说，口吃并不局限于我的身体，它是一种发生在我和我说话的人之间的现象。
I like to think of it like it's something that we share.
我喜欢把它想象成我们共享的东西。
And when Jerome's in a conversation with someone, he stutters partly because the burden to talk smoothly is only on him.
当杰罗姆与某人交谈时，他会结巴，部分原因是流畅交谈的负担只有他一个人。
Exactly, exactly.
完全正确。
One way of saying that's like, oh, he's stuttering.
一种说法是，哦，他结巴了。
But there's another way that's like, there is a stutter happening, you know.
但还有另一种方式，就像发生了口吃，你知道。
Exactly.
确切地。
Sean Cole And his talk at The Poetry Project was that on a grand scale.
肖恩·科尔（Sean Cole）在诗歌项目上的演讲规模宏大。
That's what he wanted-- for each of us to shoulder a little of the weight of the stutter that was happening.
这就是他想要的——让我们每个人都分担一些正在发生的口吃的负担。
The reason for those long silences on stage is something that I didn't know either.
台上长时间沉默的原因我也不知道。
Jerome's particular kind of stutter is sometimes called a glottal block.
杰罗姆的特殊口吃有时被称为声门阻塞。
The way he explains it, when your vocal chords are at rest, they're apart.
他解释说，当你的声带休息时，它们是分开的。
And then when you go to talk, they come together and vibrate.
然后当你说话时，它们就会聚集在一起并振动。
But sometimes, Jerome's vocal chords get stuck in the middle between being at rest and touching.
但有时，杰罗姆的声带会卡在静止和触摸之间。
So he can still make little sounds with his teeth and tongue and lips, but not his voice.
所以他仍然可以用牙齿、舌头和嘴唇发出微小的声音，但不能发出声音。
And talking to him on Skype, the same thing would happen as when he was on stage.
通过 Skype 与他交谈，会发生与他在舞台上时相同的情况。
When the glottal block came, he got this look-- a kind of frozen, wide-eyed stare like he was stunned.
当声门阻塞出现时，他的表情是这样的——一种冰冷的、睁大眼睛的凝视，就像他被惊呆了一样。
Except on stage, it was more dramatic.
除了在舞台上，它更具戏剧性。
His face would turn upward.
他的脸会向上仰。
And I remember thinking to myself, is that just effort?
我记得我心里想，这只是努力吗？
Is it fear?
是恐惧吗？
Yeah.
是的。
And I know the look you're-- you're speaking about.
我知道你所说的样子。
Yeah, it's like some stutterers will-- their body will-- will, in fact, move a lot while they're stuttering.
是的，就像一些口吃者会——事实上，他们的身体会——在口吃时移动很多。
Their face will-- will move in certain ways, which I do sometimes.
他们的脸会以某种方式移动，我有时也会这样做。
But in general, my body response is actually-- is a freezing.
但总的来说，我的身体反应实际上是——冻结。
And-- and I stop breathing often too.
而且——我也经常停止呼吸。
Just like-- like it feels like everything stops for a second or five seconds or longer.
就像——感觉一切都停止了一秒、五秒或更长时间。
So part of it is that-- is that I'm freezing.
部分原因是——我冻僵了。
Part of it feels like my body goes into a kind of supplication or prayer almost.
部分感觉就像我的身体几乎进入了一种恳求或祈祷状态。
I have a friend who once referred to it as watching-- watching me ask for the word and wait, you know.
我有一个朋友曾经将其称为“观看”——看着我询问这个词并等待，你知道。
And wait for it to come?
并等待它的到来？
Jerome Ellis Wait for it to come, yeah.
杰罗姆·埃利斯 等待它的到来，是的。
Yeah, because I often look up.
是啊，因为我经常抬头看。
It's a very specific state.
这是一个非常具体的状态。
It's like this-- there are some ways in which I, like, totally leave the room.
就像这样——在某些方面我喜欢完全离开房间。
And I think that speaks to the looking upward.
我认为这说明了向上看。
And I then just, like-- I'll, like-- I'll come back once the word arrives.
然后我就，就像——我会，就像——一旦消息到达我就会回来。
And it wasn't fear, he says.
他说，这不是恐惧。
He does have a lot of fears in his daily life-- taking too much of someone's time, not being able to order at Shake Shack when there's a line behind him.
他在日常生活中确实有很多恐惧——占用别人太多时间，在Shake Shack排长队时无法点餐。
But this wasn't that.
但事实并非如此。
If he was afraid of anything, it was falling back on the tactics he usually uses to get around a stutter-- synonyms, for example, swapping out a word he's blocked on for one that's easier to say.
如果说他害怕什么的话，那就是他又采用了他通常用来解决口吃的策略——同义词，例如，把他挡住的单词换成更容易说的单词。
He didn't want to do that on stage.
他不想在舞台上这样做。
And I didn't realize that until now, that I think that was the primary fear.
直到现在我才意识到，我认为这是主要的恐惧。
And I did do that like two or three times, and I regretted it afterwards.
我确实这样做过两三次，后来我就后悔了。
Do you remember which words you did it on, by any chance?
你还记得你是用哪个单词做的吗？
[SPEAKING PORTUGUESE] --which I had literally translated to-- in my text, I translated it-- translated it-- translated it-- translated it-- translated it-- translated it to just-- to disturbance.
[说葡萄牙语]——我从字面上翻译成——在我的文本中，我翻译了它——翻译了它——翻译了它——翻译了它——翻译了它——翻译了它——只是——干扰。
And as you just saw, that word still is like very hard for me to say.
正如你刚才看到的，这个词对我来说仍然很难说。
So what I did in the performance was--
所以我在表演中所做的是——
--breaks-- Breaks in the timing and fluency of speech.
--breaks-- 讲话的时间安排和流畅度出现中断。
And that was one that I didn't like that I did that.
我不喜欢这样做。
What I wanted to do was what I-- I just did with-- with you, is just wait.
我想做的就是我刚刚和你一起做的，就是等待。
Wait for the word.
等言。
Jerome Ellis Wait for it.
杰罗姆·埃利斯 等等。
But it was especially-- especially D's, they can be really painful.
但尤其是 D，它们真的很痛苦。
Wow.
哇。
Jerome Ellis So that's why I avoided that one.
杰罗姆·埃利斯（Jerome Ellis） 这就是我避开那个的原因。
And I was frustrated with myself.
我对自己感到沮丧。
As soon as it happened-- like breaks to me, it doesn't capture what I wanted to capture.
一旦它发生——对我来说就像休息一样，它没有捕捉到我想要捕捉的东西。
Yes.
是的。
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
Because there's no synonyms for them, you know.
因为它们没有同义词，你知道。
Jerome blocks on his own name.
杰罗姆封锁了自己的名字。
Has since he was four years old, when his stutter started.
从他四岁起，他就开始口吃。
So now trying to say his name or any name, he says it's like he's four again.
所以现在试图说出他的名字或任何名字，他说就像他又回到了四岁一样。
I even-- I even, in some situations-- for a few years, I would say "John." John is my middle name.
我什至——我什至，在某些情况下——有几年，我会说“约翰”。约翰是我的中间名。
But very interestingly, I then began stuttering on John.
但非常有趣的是，我开始结巴地说约翰。
And then I-- and then I would start saying Sean, because sometimes the "sh" sound is easy.
然后我——然后我会开始说肖恩，因为有时“sh”的声音很容易。
Like, the "juh" sound has a harder attack.
就像“juh”的声音有一个更难的起音。
And also, you know, obviously Sean is just an incredibly beautiful name.
而且，你知道，显然肖恩是一个非常美丽的名字。
And that was really-- I mean, that was my-- that was my main reasoning for doing it.
这确实是——我的意思是，那是我的——那是我这样做的主要原因。
I was just like, well, if I'm going to-- if I'm going to choose a new name, why not just go straight for the top, you know what I mean?
我当时想，好吧，如果我要——如果我要选择一个新名字，为什么不直接登上顶峰，你知道我的意思吗？
Just go for the top, man.
就去顶吧，伙计。
Jerome Ellis So, you know.
杰罗姆·埃利斯：所以，你知道。
And then I started stuttering on that, you know.
然后我就开始结巴了，你知道。
I mean, I just find that-- that so beautiful.
我的意思是，我只是发现——那太美了。
It's like it's always outpacing me in a way.
就好像它总是在某种程度上超过我。
You find that beautiful that it's outpacing you?
你觉得它美丽到超越你了吗？
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
I mean, I find it painful too, but I-- but I find a deep beauty in that.
我的意思是，我也觉得这很痛苦，但我……但我发现其中有一种深刻的美。
What is the beauty?
美是什么？
Jerome Ellis Well, for me it's this quality that it's like-- the stutter, it feels like this thing that is so deeply entwined with my body, my mind, my emotions, everything.
杰罗姆·埃利斯：嗯，对我来说，就是这种品质——口吃，感觉就像这种东西与我的身体、我的思想、我的情感、一切都深深地交织在一起。
And yet I can't figure it out, or I can't grasp it.
但我还是无法弄清楚，或者说我无法掌握它。
And even more so, like when I think I have grasped it, like when I think I've outsmarted it even, like, by switching my name, there's something about just how elusive it is.
更重要的是，就像当我认为我已经掌握了它时，就像当我认为我甚至比它更聪明时，就像通过改变我的名字一样，它是多么难以捉摸。
The second half of Jerome's performance was just one sentence.
杰罗姆后半段的表演只是一句话。
It took him four minutes and nine seconds to get through, partly because it had a name at the beginning.
他花了四分零九秒才通过，部分原因是它一开始就有一个名字。
The Black feminist-- Sean Cole The sentence begins, "The Black feminist scholar Kimberlé Crenshaw once wrote," and then a quote.
黑人女权主义者——肖恩·科尔 句子开头是“黑人女权主义学者金伯利·克伦肖曾经写道”，然后是一句引言。
Climbing on top of Crenshaw's name alone took him about a minute 45 seconds.
仅爬上克伦肖的名字就花了他大约一分四十五秒。
I haven't paused the recording of the performance, by the way.
顺便说一句，我还没有暂停表演的录制。
It's still running underneath this.
它仍然在下面运行。
My chest was hurting so much.
我的胸部很痛。
And while I was doing it, I was like, god, should I just, like, give up and leave, you know?
当我这样做的时候，我想，上帝，我应该放弃并离开，你知道吗？
And I was like, no. I mean, I've done that so many-- like, I mean, there's so many moments in life where I just like-- I just stop speaking because I just don't want to put in-- in the labor of finishing my thought or finishing my sentence.
我当时想，不。我的意思是，我已经做过很多次了——就像，我的意思是，生活中有很多时刻我只是喜欢——我只是停止说话，因为我只是不想投入——在完成我的想法或完成我的句子的劳动中。
And I was like, no, I don't want to do that here.
我当时想，不，我不想在这里这样做。
I wanted to show the audience the labor that's involved.
我想向观众展示其中涉及的劳动。
And this is labor that I often or sometimes won't put in.
这是我经常或有时不会投入的劳动。
The Black feminist scholar-- Sean Cole But it was around this moment that the feeling in the room started to change again.
黑人女权主义学者——肖恩·科尔 但就在这个时候，房间里的气氛又开始发生变化。
There was no more confusion, obviously, and any concern or tension was gone too.
显然，不再有混乱，任何担忧或紧张也消失了。
Black feminist scholar-- Sean Cole By this point, the importance of what Jerome was saying had landed on us.
黑人女权主义学者——肖恩·科尔 至此，杰罗姆所说的话的重要性已经落在了我们身上。
And the marriage between the thing he was saying and the way he was saying it-- like a poem elongated.
他所说的事情和他说话的方式之间的结合——就像一首诗被拉长了。
So it just took us a little longer to catch up.
所以我们只是花了更长的时间才赶上。
I'm going to stop the recording for a second and just read you the quote so you can sit with it during this last part.
我将停止录音一秒钟，然后给您读一下引言，以便您可以在最后一部分中坐下来听听。
It goes, "Treating different things the same can generate as much an inequality as treating the same things differently."
它说：“以同样的方式对待不同的事物，与以不同的方式对待相同的事物一样，会产生不平等。”
Did you feel kind of punk rock to be doing that or, like, badass to be like--
你这样做是不是感觉有点朋克摇滚，或者像坏蛋一样——
Yeah.
是的。
I mean, I felt like it was an act of resistance.
我的意思是，我觉得这是一种抵抗行为。
And like-- and like, I'm-- as a musician, the first music I studied really deeply was jazz.
就像——就像，我——作为一名音乐家，我真正深入研究的第一首音乐是爵士乐。
And I remember very distinctly when I was in middle school that I would be-- I would have my jazz CDs at home.
我清楚地记得，当我上中学时，我会在家里放爵士乐 CD。
And often, they would be like four tracks, because each track would be like nine minutes long.
通常，它们就像四首曲目，因为每首曲目大约九分钟长。
And then I remember like looking at my friends' CDs of-- of punk rock, for example, as you mentioned, and like, you know, much shorter tracks.
然后我记得喜欢看我朋友的朋克摇滚 CD，例如，正如你提到的，并且喜欢更短的曲目。
I remember-- I remember noticing that at that age and, like, thinking about what that meant.
我记得——我记得在那个年纪注意到了这一点，并且思考了这意味着什么。
And there would be this refusal to adhere to the length of a pop song, for example, you know.
例如，你知道，人们会拒绝遵守流行歌曲的长度。
And for me, there was always a racialized element there too, that there's, like, a Black resistance against certain structures of time, that like, no, this track is 11 minutes long.
对我来说，那里也总是有一个种族化的元素，比如，黑人对某些时间结构的抵抗，比如，不，这条赛道有 11 分钟长。
And if you don't want to listen to it, then don't listen to it.
如果你不想听，那就别听。
But like-- like, I'm like-- like, we're-- like, our-- what we're trying to achieve in this music is different in some ways than what a three-minute song is trying to achieve.
但是就像——就像，我就像——就像，我们——就像，我们的——我们在这首音乐中试图实现的目标在某些方面与三分钟歌曲试图实现的目标不同。
Treating-- treating-- treating-- treating-- treating-- treating-- treating-- treating--
治疗--治疗--治疗--治疗--治疗--治疗--治疗--治疗--
As a Black person, I'm also thinking about the way that time and access to time is racially inflected.
作为一名黑人，我也在思考时间和获得时间的方式是如何受到种族影响的。
You know, there are many moments in the world when--
你知道，世界上有很多时刻——
Treating-- --a person of color is just not given as much time to speak.
对待有色人种，只是没有给予他们足够的发言时间。
Treating different things the same way may generate as much inequality as treating the same things in different ways.
以相同的方式对待不同的事物可能会产生与以不同的方式对待相同的事物一样严重的不平等。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Jerome Ellis, Jerome Ellis.
杰罗姆·埃利斯，杰罗姆·埃利斯。
Sean Cole To learn more about Jerome Ellis and his many projects, visit jeromeellis.com.
Sean Cole 要了解有关 Jerome Ellis 及其众多项目的更多信息，请访问 jeromeellis.com。
That's J-E-R-O-M-E E-L-L-I-S dot com.
这就是 J-E-R-O-M-E E-L-L-I-S .com。
You can also follow him on Instagram.
您还可以在 Instagram 上关注他。
It's @ellisjerome.
这是@ellisjerome。
Coming up, a story that perfectly encapsulates what my father always called the Golden Rule.
接下来的故事完美地概括了我父亲一直所说的黄金法则。
Them that's got the gold makes the rules.
拥有黄金的人制定规则。
That was his joke.
那是他的笑话。
That's in one minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
一分钟后，芝加哥公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Sean Cole sitting in for Ira Glass.
我是肖恩·科尔，代理艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's show, Made to Be Broken, stories about regulations, guidelines, proprieties that people upend for some just cause, as opposed to just 'cause.
今天的节目《被打破》讲述了人们为了某种正义事业而不是正义事业而推翻法规、指导方针和礼节的故事。
Act Two of our show today, It's All About the Jeffersons.
我们今天节目的第二幕“一切都是关于杰斐逊一家”。
When he was a kid, comedian Tone Bell was a rule follower.
当喜剧演员托恩·贝尔（Tone Bell）还是个孩子的时候，他就是一个遵守规则的人。
But there was one time he got into really big trouble, broke the rules in a serious way.
但有一次他遇到了很大的麻烦，严重违反了规则。
And there's a Polaroid picture commemorating the moment.
还有一张宝丽莱照片来纪念这一时刻。
In his family, it became one of those iconic photographs, sort of family lore.
在他的家庭中，这成为了那些标志性照片之一，有点像家庭传说。
They just called it the Polaroid.
他们只是称之为宝丽来。
He explained the backstory to producer Elna Baker.
他向制片人埃尔娜·贝克解释了背景故事。
When Tone started sixth grade at a new school, he got Ms. Dillard as his homeroom teacher.
当托恩在一所新学校开始六年级时，他请迪拉德女士作为他的班主任。
His neighbor, who we're calling MP, told him, that's not the teacher you want.
他的邻居，我们称之为国会议员，告诉他，那不是你想要的老师。
You want Ms. Jefferson.
你想要杰斐逊女士。
He definitely let me know that he had the better teacher, but I still didn't know why.
他确实让我知道他有更好的老师，但我仍然不知道为什么。
I mean, I didn't know if it was because she was young and it was math, but I quickly learned why you wanted Ms. Jefferson.
我的意思是，我不知道是不是因为她年轻而且是数学，但我很快就明白了你为什么想要杰斐逊女士。
Yeah, a bank.
是的，一家银行。
She was a math teacher, and she gave out fake money to the kids.
她是一名数学老师，她给孩子们发假钱。
When you did well on your homework or tests, you'd earn what she called Jefferson bucks, as in Ms. Jefferson, not Thomas.
当你在家庭作业或考试中表现出色时，你将获得她所说的杰斐逊币，就像杰斐逊女士，而不是托马斯。
They came in denominations of one, five, and 10, and were actually printed.
它们的面额有 1、5 和 10，并且是实际印刷的。
There was definitely a Jefferson mint.
肯定有杰斐逊铸币厂。
They were bills.
它们是账单。
They were straight up bills-- smaller than a real dollar, bigger than Monopoly money, but it kind of had that feel of Monopoly money.
它们是直接的纸币——比真正的美元小，比大富翁货币大，但它有点像大富翁货币的感觉。
I mean, it looked like-- I mean, 12-year-old money.
我的意思是，它看起来像是——我的意思是，12 年前的钱。
It looked like money.
它看起来像钱。
I'm 99% sure her face was on it.
我99%确信上面有她的脸。
Tone wasn't in Ms. Jefferson's homeroom like MP, who'd go to her homeroom four or five times a day.
托恩不像MP那样在杰斐逊女士的教室里，她每天会去她的教室四五次。
But he had her once a day for math, so he got to earn Jefferson bucks too.
但他每天带她上一次数学课，所以他也能赚到杰斐逊的钱。
You could also make them for good behavior, like being quiet or helping her pass out papers.
你也可以因为她表现良好而做这些，比如保持安静或帮助她分发文件。
I remember seeing one of my classmates open a door because one of the girls had stuff in her hand.
我记得看到我的一位同学打开了一扇门，因为其中一个女孩手里拿着东西。
That was like chivalrous, so he end up getting some money.
这就像侠义一样，所以他最终得到了一些钱。
I was like, oh, should you go open doors?
我当时想，哦，你应该去开门吗？
I didn't know you could just be out here opening doors.
我不知道你会在这里开门。
Like, I don't know.
就像，我不知道。
I'm putting that on the list.
我把它列在清单上了。
Like, oh shit, I got to open some doors now.
就像，哦，该死，我现在必须打开一些门。
I mean, she had to notice it.
我的意思是，她必须注意到这一点。
So you're doing what?
那你在做什么？
Tone Bell Oh, you're going above and beyond.
Tone Bell 哦，你已经超越了。
I mean, you're knocking stuff off tables.
我的意思是，你正在把桌子上的东西弄掉。
You're knocking people's books off tables and then picking them up just so she can see a good deed.
你把人们的书从桌子上打下来，然后把它们捡起来，这样她就可以看到一件好事。
And then you're looking back at her like, you see what I did, right?
然后你回头看着她，你明白我做了什么，对吧？
At the end of the week, you could cash your Jefferson bucks in at the Jefferson Market, a little store Ms. Jefferson set up at her desk.
周末的时候，你可以在杰斐逊市场兑换你的杰斐逊钱，这是杰斐逊女士在她办公桌旁设立的一家小商店。
Here, you could buy an extra 10 minutes at recess, as in everyone's coming inside and you're like, here's $5.
在这里，你可以在课间休息时多买 10 分钟的时间，因为每个人都进来了，你会说，这是 5 美元。
I'm going to keep playing Red Rover by myself.
我会继续自己玩Red Rover。
Or you could buy school supplies, cheap plastic toys like little green army men, and candy, all sorts of candy.
或者你可以购买学习用品、廉价的塑料玩具（比如小绿军人）和糖果，各种糖果。
This was obviously the top seller.
这显然是最畅销的。
The kids even ranked it in order of preference.
孩子们甚至按照喜好顺序排列。
So the Fun Dips and the Blow Pops and the Airheads were definitely, I want to say, like the top-tier candy-- maybe Skittles, like the long Jolly Ranchers.
所以，我想说，Fun Dips、Blow Pops 和 Airheads 绝对像顶级糖果——也许是彩虹糖，就像长条的 Jolly Ranchers 一样。
And you can tell.
你可以看出。
You could tell, especially with the Jefferson bucks-- like, if you only had $2, this is the drawer she opens because that's the cheap candy.
你可以看出来，尤其是杰斐逊的钱——比如，如果你只有 2 美元，这就是她打开的抽屉，因为那是便宜的糖果。
Like, you don't have enough.
比如说，你还不够。
Like, you got to pick from this bullshit candy.
就像，你必须从这种狗屎糖果中挑选。
Tone loved it.
音很喜欢它。
But then one day, a few weeks into the school year, this thing happened that changed how Tone thought about the Jefferson bucks system, and he couldn't get it out of his head.
但有一天，开学几周后，发生了一件事情，改变了托恩对杰斐逊雄鹿队体系的看法，他无法将这件事从他的脑海中抹去。
He was sitting with MP when he noticed something.
当他注意到一件事时，他正和国会议员坐在一起。
I mean, I remember him having that plastic pencil case-- you know, pencils, protractor, ruler, all the stuff that you needed.
我的意思是，我记得他有那个塑料铅笔盒——你知道，有铅笔、量角器、尺子，所有你需要的东西。
He had so much money-- he had so much money, what that bag was used for turned into a wallet.
他有那么多钱——他有那么多钱，那个包的用途变成了钱包。
I mean, it was just wads of Jefferson bucks.
我的意思是，这只是杰斐逊的一大笔钱。
I remember him taking that out.
我记得他把那个拿出来了。
And it was almost like a secret because he didn't want everybody to-- and he threw me a couple dollars.
这几乎就像一个秘密，因为他不想让每个人都知道——他给了我几美元。
And I saw-- I was like, how do you have that much money?
我看到——我想，你怎么有那么多钱？
It blew my mind.
这让我大吃一惊。
And then hearing like, oh, I made $11 today.
然后听到这样的话，哦，我今天赚了 11 美元。
I'm like, you made $11 today?
我想，你今天赚了 11 美元吗？
Today?
今天？
[CHUCKLES] Tone Bell It ain't even 2 o'clock yet.
[咯咯笑] Tone Bell 现在还不到 2 点。
You got more time.
你还有更多时间。
Tone had been working his ass off for weeks, and all he had was six bucks, which was a tiny fraction of what MP had.
托恩已经拼命工作了好几个星期，他只有六块钱，这只是 MP 的一小部分。
Tone was earning a minimum wage, and MP was Jeff Bezos.
基调是赚取最低工资，议员是杰夫·贝索斯。
He had to really sit with it before he understood how this could be.
在他明白这是怎么回事之前，他必须真正坐下来。
MP had Ms. Jefferson for homeroom and for math, which meant that he saw her four times throughout the day.
议员让杰斐逊女士来当班主任和数学老师，这意味着他一天会见到她四次。
Tone only saw her once for math.
托恩只在数学课上见过她一次。
Of course, MP had way more Jefferson bucks.
当然，国会议员有更多的杰斐逊钱。
I remember seeing it and being envious, and being jealous, and wondering how I do that.
我记得看到它时感到羡慕、嫉妒，并想知道我是如何做到这一点的。
And just like, let me switch my energy up.
就像，让我转换我的能量。
I'll study more.
我会更多地学习。
I'll be politer.
我会更有礼貌。
I won't talk in class as much.
我不会在课堂上讲话那么多。
Tone tried all sorts of strategies to make money.
托恩尝试了各种策略来赚钱。
But now that he saw the flaw in the system, he couldn't unsee it.
但既然他看到了系统的缺陷，他就无法忽视它了。
Everything was a reminder of how much more opportunity the kids in her homeroom had.
一切都在提醒我们，她班里的孩子们有多少机会。
It was almost like they had on fur coats and shit and driving Cadillacs.
这几乎就像他们穿着毛皮大衣，开着凯迪拉克。
It almost felt like it made them dress better.
几乎感觉这让他们穿得更好了。
It was like they were in the capital and we were District 12.
就好像他们在首都，而我们在第 12 区。
We were just poor people trying to make it, and they are the elite.
我们只是努力奋斗的穷人，而他们是精英。
And did that make you mad?
这让你生气了吗？
Tone Bell Oh, it made me so fucking mad.
Tone Bell 哦，这让我非常生气。
It made me so mad because you don't know-- like, you know the rules and you know what's supposed to work, but then it doesn't work.
这让我很生气，因为你不知道——比如，你知道规则，你知道什么应该有效，但它不起作用。
But you see it worked for others.
但你会发现它对其他人也有效。
To Tone, having money also meant something really important to him-- impressing girls.
对托恩来说，有钱对他来说也意味着一些非常重要的事情——给女孩留下深刻的印象。
There was one girl in particular he had a huge crush on.
他特别迷恋一个女孩。
We'll call her Natasha.
我们就叫她娜塔莎吧。
She didn't even know Tone existed, but he thought about her all the time.
她甚至不知道Tone的存在，但他却无时无刻不在想着她。
Man, Natasha.
伙计，娜塔莎。
Her name was on the back of my notebook and stuff.
她的名字写在我的笔记本和其他东西的背面。
She was active and just long hair, brown skin-- just, like, beautiful.
她很活跃，有一头长发，棕色的皮肤——就像，美丽。
And her maturity level was up there.
她的成熟度也很高。
Her hair was always done.
她的头发总是整理好的。
She always wore cool clothes.
她总是穿着很酷的衣服。
And she just had the attention.
她只是引起了人们的注意。
And you saw the dudes who were getting her attention.
你看到了那些引起她注意的家伙。
And look, man, to be honest with you, they just-- they had money.
老实说，他们只是——他们有钱。
They had Jefferson bucks.
他们有杰斐逊的钱。
And would boys buy girls things with the Jefferson bucks?
男孩会用杰斐逊的钱给女孩买东西吗？
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Yeah, we called that tricking off.
是的，我们称之为欺骗。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah, I mean, definitely.
是的，我的意思是，绝对如此。
Tone is 12, trying to figure out the whole girl thing for the first time and desperate to impress them.
Tone 是 12，第一次尝试弄清楚整个女孩的事情，并渴望给他们留下深刻的印象。
Luckily, there were other ways to make money besides Ms. Jefferson's class and way more ways to spend it.
幸运的是，除了杰斐逊女士的课程之外，还有其他赚钱的方法以及更多的花钱方式。
One of Tone's classmates explained to me that because Ms. Jefferson's store was only open on Friday, the kids came up with an underground economy of their own, a black market fueled by Jefferson bucks that was open every day of the week.
托恩的一位同学向我解释说，因为杰斐逊女士的商店只在周五营业，所以孩子们想出了自己的地下经济，这是一个由杰斐逊美元推动的黑市，每周每天都营业。
You could buy anything there.
你可以在那里买任何东西。
If somebody had jello, chocolate, or their dessert, we're like, hey, Maggie, three bucks for the half of your slice of pizza on Friday.
如果有人吃了果冻、巧克力或甜点，我们就会说，嘿，玛吉，周五你的半片披萨三块钱。
I mean, somebody might sell you a pencil half price what Ms. Jefferson's going to sell it.
我的意思是，有人可能会以杰斐逊女士的一半价格卖给你一支铅笔。
Ms. Jefferson might have been selling the pencil, a graphic pencil, for $2, and you might be able to get it for $1.
杰斐逊女士可能以 2 美元的价格出售铅笔（图形铅笔），而您可能可以以 1 美元的价格买到它。
I mean, it became a legal tender basically through our sixth grade.
我的意思是，它基本上在我们六年级时就成为了法定货币。
The kids did a lot of shady things, all under the table.
孩子们做了很多见不得人的事，都是在桌子底下做的。
Like kids in Ms. Jefferson's class would pay kids in Ms. Dillard's 10 to 20 Jefferson bucks to do their homework.
就像杰斐逊女士班上的孩子会付给迪拉德女士的杰斐逊女士 10 到 20 块钱让他们做作业一样。
That's how the black market worked if you had money.
如果你有钱的话，黑市就是这样运作的。
If you didn't--
如果你没有——
You've got to figure out how to leverage what they need so that you can get something that you're not getting, which is the Jefferson buck.
你必须弄清楚如何利用他们所需要的东西，这样你才能得到你没有得到的东西，这就是杰斐逊的钱。
I mean, there were moments where I remember, if you're not paying attention to your books, you might have a textbook stolen, and you're going to need five Jefferson bucks to get your book back.
我的意思是，我记得有些时候，如果你不注意你的书，你的教科书可能被偷了，你将需要五块杰斐逊币才能拿回你的书。
By December, the lopsidedness of Ms. Jefferson's system was clear to everyone in Ms. Dillard's homeroom.
到了十二月，迪拉德女士班主任室里的每个人都清楚杰斐逊女士制度的不平衡。
They complained to each other about it.
他们为此相互抱怨。
And it's like, this shit is rigged.
就像，这狗屎被操纵了。
I don't remember who it was, but I remember a lot of us being like, yo, what do we need to do?
我不记得是谁，但我记得我们很多人都在想，哟，我们需要做什么？
Yeah, we brought it up, of how to-- like, how do we do more if you're not seeing it?
是的，我们提出过，如果您没有看到它，我们如何做更多事情？
I'm trying my best.
我正在尽力。
And it's like nay, man.
这就像不，伙计。
We got to have a town hall.
我们必须有一个市政厅。
A kid brought it up one day in math class, and several others, including Tone, immediately jumped on board.
有一天，一个孩子在数学课上提到了这个问题，包括托恩在内的其他几个孩子立即加入了进来。
I wasn't able to find Ms. Jefferson to get her side of this, but the way Tone remembers it, Ms. Jefferson shut this discussion down.
我没能找到杰斐逊女士来表达她的观点，但据托恩的记忆，杰斐逊女士结束了这次讨论。
If they wanted more money, she said, they needed to try harder, period, end of discussion.
她说，如果他们想要更多的钱，他们就需要更加努力，就这样，讨论结束。
It's like, hey, man, everybody has the same opportunity.
就像，嘿，伙计，每个人都有同样的机会。
And it's like, no, they don't.
就像，不，他们不这样做。
Well, you got to work harder, and you got to try harder.
嗯，你必须更加努力，你必须更加努力。
And then after-- I'm saying months of doing that-- nothing, still nothing.
然后——我是说做了几个月之后——什么也没有，仍然什么也没有。
And I just had this moment where I was like, I-- I've got to rob the Jefferson bank.
当时我就想，我——我必须抢劫杰斐逊银行。
Like, I'm going, there's no other way.
就这样吧，我走了，没有别的办法了。
Again, Tone was a rule follower.
托恩再次成为规则的遵守者。
His dad was really strict.
他的父亲确实很严厉。
So this was wildly out of character.
所以这完全不符合他的性格。
But as Bertolt Brecht said in a very different context, who's the greater criminal, the man who robs a bank or the man who founds one?
但正如贝尔托·布莱希特（Bertolt Brecht）在一个完全不同的背景下所说的那样，谁是更大的罪犯，抢劫银行的人还是创办银行的人？
Tone figured, if she can make-believe a bank, then he could rob that make-believe bank without any consequences.
托恩想，如果她能虚构一家银行，那么他就可以抢劫那家虚构的银行，而不会产生任何后果。
And then so I kind of just-- I mean, I guess I just kind of started casing Ms. Jefferson's actions.
然后我就——我的意思是，我想我就开始关注杰斐逊女士的行为了。
I knew we left a window open.
我知道我们留了一扇窗。
At this point, we had her right before lunch.
此时，我们在午饭前就和她见面了。
I knew where she kept it.
我知道她把它放在哪里。
I knew where the store was.
我知道商店在哪里。
I knew where the money was.
我知道钱在哪里。
So at lunch-- so I decided a couple days before, I'm going to start going to the bathroom during lunch.
所以在午餐时——所以我几天前就决定，我要在午餐时开始去洗手间。
I would go to the bathroom, come back.
我会去洗手间，然后回来。
Spend, like, a little extra time, come back.
多花一点时间，然后回来。
You know, for a few days, just so this wouldn't look awkward either.
你知道，几天，只是为了让这看起来不那么尴尬。
He's testing out how long he can be away without people noticing.
他正在测试他可以在不被人注意到的情况下离开多久。
Ms. Jefferson's classroom is locked during lunch, but she has a window that faces the courtyard.
午餐时，杰斐逊女士的教室是锁着的，但她有一扇面向庭院的窗户。
His plan is to slip in through the window, grab some money, and head out.
他的计划是从窗户溜进去，拿点钱，然后出去。
So I was like, OK, today's the day.
所以我想，好吧，今天就是这一天。
You know, I go the bathroom.
你知道，我去洗手间。
And I asked the-- you know, excuse me, can I go to the bathroom real quick?
我问——你知道，对不起，我可以很快去趟洗手间吗？
I don't feel well.
我感觉不太舒服。
He goes straight to Ms. Jefferson's window in the courtyard, pushes it open, and climbs in.
他径直走到杰斐逊女士位于院子里的窗户前，推开窗户，爬了进去。
His heart is racing.
他的心跳加速。
And then he goes over to the one place every kid knows is forbidden, his teacher's desk.
然后他走到每个孩子都知道的禁止去的地方，他老师的桌子。
He knows exactly where Ms. Jefferson keeps the money, in the bottom right drawer.
他确切地知道杰斐逊女士把钱放在哪里，在右下角的抽屉里。
He opens the drawer and sees the metal cashbox.
他打开抽屉，看到了金属钱箱。
It's unlocked.
它已解锁。
And so I open the box up.
于是我打开了盒子。
And, you know, I mean, just money.
而且，你知道，我的意思是，只是金钱。
Even in that moment, I was like, oh-- this was like a Scrooge McDuck moment.
即使在那一刻，我就想，哦——这就像守财奴麦克老鸭的时刻。
Like, I am swimming in Jefferson bucks, but you can't get overzealous.
就像，我穿着杰斐逊雄鹿游泳，但你不能太热心。
Because if you take everything, that's definitely going to be noticeable.
因为如果你把一切都拿走，那肯定会引人注目。
So you have to take enough to feel comfortable, but not enough to set off any alarms.
因此，您必须服用足够的剂量才能感到舒适，但又不能足以引起任何警报。
And drawer opened up, popped the box, and grabbed out a nice-- I mean-- I mean, I'm going to say an inch thick of Jefferson bucks.
抽屉打开，打开盒子，拿出一个漂亮的——我是说——我是说，我要说的是一英寸厚的杰斐逊币。
I'm going to say, like, an inch, like a nice-- probably equivalent to what MP had in his pencil holder.
我想说，就像一英寸，就像一个漂亮的——可能相当于国会议员笔筒里的东西。
And so I split that in half, and then I stuffed my pockets.
所以我把它分成两半，然后塞进我的口袋。
And I'm like, I got to get the fuck out of here.
我想，我他妈的必须离开这里。
Tone is running out of time.
音调时间不多了。
He does a sweep of the room, then he exits through the classroom door and locks it behind him.
他扫视了一下房间，然后从教室门出去，并将门锁在身后。
I'm good.
我很好。
Like, I'm home free.
就像，我有空回家了。
So I close the door.
所以我关上门。
I back out.
我退出了。
Door is locked.
门被锁了。
And I'm starting to walk around the corner, and I've run into Natasha.
我开始走到拐角处，遇到了娜塔莎。
Like, blew my mind.
就像，让我大吃一惊。
I'm also like, why is she in the hallway?
我也想，她为什么在走廊里？
And I mean, she looks at me.
我的意思是，她看着我。
She knows that I'm not supposed to be here.
她知道我不应该在这里。
But also she's looking at me like, why were you in Ms. Jefferson's class?
但她也看着我，好像在问你为什么在杰斐逊女士的班上？
And I mean, I swear to you, she just looks me up and down and just notices my pockets because, I mean, I got dollar bills-- I got Jefferson bucks, I mean, just popping out of my pockets.
我的意思是，我向你发誓，她只是上下打量我，只注意到我的口袋，因为，我的意思是，我有美元钞票——我有杰斐逊币，我的意思是，只是从我的口袋里冒出来。
Oh, man.
哦，伙计。
And she just looks me up and down.
她只是上下打量我。
And she was like, oh.
她说，哦。
[LAUGHS] She's goes, oh, I'm going to need some of that.
[笑]她说，哦，我需要一些。
And I'm like, oh my god.
我想，天啊。
Like, this girl who I'm infatuated with, one, is robbing me.
就像，这个我迷恋的女孩正在抢劫我。
But like, to not get caught, I have to give this bitch hush money.
但为了不被抓住，我必须给这个婊子封口费。
So I think I gave her my whole left pocket, if I'm not mistaken, because it was already split in half.
所以我想如果我没记错的话，我把整个左口袋都给了她，因为它已经被分成两半了。
And right before I go back to lunch, I'm like, hey, just do not say nothing about-- are we good?
就在我回去吃午饭之前，我想，嘿，别说什么——我们好吗？
And just like, hey, man.
就像，嘿，伙计。
You know, we kind of had a cone of silence.
你知道，我们之间有一段沉默。
Like, can we keep this shit a secret?
就像，我们可以保守这个秘密吗？
Come back to Ms. Dillard's class.
回到迪拉德老师的课堂。
By the time we start the next period, I mean, everybody knows about it.
我的意思是，当我们开始下一阶段时，每个人都知道了。
I heard you took Jefferson bucks.
我听说你拿了杰斐逊的钱。
I was like, mm-mm, I didn't take any Jefferson-- I was at lunch with you the whole time.
我当时想，嗯嗯，我没有带任何杰斐逊——我一直在和你一起吃午饭。
I went to the bathroom.
我去了洗手间。
That's about it.
就是这样。
So you start to see the eyeballs come at you like, oh, man, too many people know.
所以你开始看到人们的目光投向你，就像，哦，伙计，太多人知道了。
Within no time, word spreads to Ms. Jefferson, and then the principal or vice principal.
很快，消息就传到了杰斐逊女士，然后传到了校长或副校长那里。
Tone can't remember which.
音不记得是哪一个了。
And they pull me into the hallway.
他们把我拉进走廊。
Ms. Dillard comes out.
迪拉德女士出来了。
They're like, where were you during lunch?
他们会问，午餐时你在哪里？
And I was like, I went to the bathroom.
我当时想，我去了洗手间。
I asked for permission.
我请求许可。
And they're like, so you didn't go anywhere else?
他们说，所以你没有去其他地方？
And I was like, no, I just went, and I came back.
我当时想，不，我只是去了，然后就回来了。
And they're like, OK, so what's in your pockets?
他们会说，好吧，那么你的口袋里有什么？
And I was like, nothing.
我当时想，什么也没有。
It's still in your pocket?
它还在你的口袋里吗？
Tone Bell I didn't have time to put it up.
Tone Bell 我没有时间把它放出来。
[LAUGHS] I didn't have time to-- my plan was getting foiled in front of my eyes because I had too many eyeballs on me to take it out of my-- there's nothing I could do.
[笑]我没有时间——我的计划在我眼前被挫败了，因为我有太多的目光注视着我，无法把它从我身上夺走——我无能为力。
I felt I was wearing a wire and people knew about it.
我觉得我戴着一根电线，人们都知道这一点。
Even with the money as evidence, Tone still won't confess.
即使有钱为证，Tone仍然不肯认罪。
So they turn up the heat.
所以他们加大了热度。
Into the hallway walks Natasha.
娜塔莎走进走廊。
Yeah, she comes out.
是的，她出来了。
And she was like, well, I saw him coming out of Ms. Jefferson's room.
她说，好吧，我看到他从杰斐逊女士的房间里出来。
And I was like, what?
我当时想，什么？
I mean, like, it was unreal.
我的意思是，就像，这是不真实的。
That's why I gave you the money, not to talk, especially to these people.
这就是为什么我给你钱，不是为了说话，尤其是和这些人。
That's why I gave it to you.
这就是我把它给你的原因。
Like, if you was going to tell the whole time, I would've just kept all of it.
就像，如果你要全部讲述，我就会保留所有内容。
Like, if this was how it was going to end-- like, that's what the money was for.
就像，如果这就是事情的结局——就像，这就是钱的用途。
And I go to the office, and it's our-- it's either our principal, the vice principal, but it's definitely Ms. Jefferson.
我去办公室，发现是我们的——要么是我们的校长，要么是副校长，但肯定是杰斐逊女士。
Did she ask you anything?
她有问你什么吗？
Tone Bell She was definitely disappointed.
音铃她肯定很失望。
She was definitely disappointed.
她肯定很失望。
And then, you know, she's-- why would you do that?
然后，你知道，她——你为什么要这么做？
And I was real.
我是真实的。
And I was like, look, man, it wasn't to be malicious.
我当时想，看，伙计，这不是恶意的。
It was like, we struggling out here.
就像我们在这里挣扎一样。
I'm sick of seeing people with three chocolate milks, and five Blow Pops and Ring Pops and all this kind of shit, and I can't do nothing.
我厌倦了看到人们拿着三杯巧克力牛奶，五杯吹气棒和环形棒棒糖以及所有这些狗屎，但我无能为力。
And it's like, well, there's a better way to go about it.
就好像，好吧，有更好的方法来解决这个问题。
I tried that.
我试过了。
And you can't tell me that you don't remember.
而且你不能告诉我你不记得了。
We kind of all talked about it.
我们都讨论过这个问题。
And I've tried everything.
我已经尝试了一切。
I've tried what you said to do.
我已经尝试过你说的做法。
I've tried to make better grades.
我努力取得更好的成绩。
I've tried to be more chivalrous.
我努力变得更有侠义精神。
I've tried to not get my name on the board.
我尽力不让自己的名字出现在黑板上。
I've tried all these things, and they don't work.
我已经尝试了所有这些方法，但它们不起作用。
I've tried to be fair, and you're not being fair.
我已经尽力做到公平，而你却没有做到公平。
Tone's punishment, the worst possible outcome.
语气的惩罚，可能是最坏的结果。
They call his dad.
他们叫他爸爸。
In Tone's mind, this is his last day on Earth.
在托恩看来，这是他在地球上的最后一天。
He gets home, goes straight to the fridge, gets a bowl of ice cream, and heads to his room to watch porn.
他回到家，直接走到冰箱前，买了一碗冰淇淋，然后走进自己的房间看色情片。
He figures he might as well go out with a bang.
他认为他还不如轰轰烈烈地出去。
He's refilling his bowl when he notices something.
当他注意到什么时，他正在给碗加水。
There's a chair in the middle of the kitchen.
厨房中间有一把椅子。
His dad walks in, gestures to the chair, and says--
他爸爸走进来，指着椅子说——
Oh, no, no, no, no. No. You know what time it is.
哦，不，不，不，不。不，你知道现在几点了。
And like, I'm like, ooh, fuck.
就像，我就像，哦，操。
You know, I've got to bend over the back of his chair, and I'm just taking it.
你知道，我必须弯腰靠在他的椅背上，而我只是接受它。
I mean, I'm just breaking down.
我的意思是，我快要崩溃了。
And then my father just like-- he stops.
然后我父亲就像——他停了下来。
I'm crying and everything.
我在哭什么。
And then he goes, hey, Tone.
然后他说，嘿，托恩。
And I look back, and my father takes a Polaroid of me crying with the-- I mean, like it's-- pants are at my ankles, ass just-- I mean, face is like-- I mean, took a Polaroid.
我回头一看，我父亲拍了一张我哭泣的宝丽来照片，照片上——我的意思是，就像——裤子在我的脚踝处，屁股只是——我的意思是，脸就像——我的意思是，拍了一张宝丽来照片。
And what was the expression on your face?
你脸上的表情是什么？
Tone never got another spanking.
托恩再也没有挨过打屁股。
He never went rogue again.
他再也没有出轨过。
And part of that has to do with the Polaroid.
其中一部分与宝丽来有关。
Anytime he started acting up, his dad would remind him of that photo, and Tone would course correct.
每当他开始表现不佳时，他的父亲都会提醒他那张照片，而托恩当然会纠正。
I mean, it was, like, Pavlovian.
我的意思是，这就像巴甫洛夫式的。
It was like-- I mean, that photo made me break down.
就像——我是说，那张照片让我崩溃了。
Tone was ashamed.
语气很羞愧。
He felt bad for robbing the bank.
他为抢银行而感到难过。
But the thing is, it actually got him what he wanted.
但事实是，这确实让他得到了他想要的东西。
Not like he expected-- he didn't get Jefferson bucks.
与他预期的不同——他没有得到杰斐逊的钱。
But he got justice.
但他得到了正义。
Ms. Jefferson changed the rules.
杰斐逊女士改变了规则。
No matter how many times a day you saw her, you could only earn money during the hour of math class.
不管你一天见她多少次，你只能在数学课的时间里赚到钱。
It became a level playing field.
它成为一个公平的竞争环境。
I feel like I do remember people kind of being disappointed.
我觉得我确实记得人们有点失望。
There was people in Ms. Jefferson's class that were pissed, I'm sure.
我确信杰斐逊女士的班上有人很生气。
But everybody who wasn't in Ms. Jefferson's class was like, yo, about time.
但杰斐逊女士班上的每个人都说，哟，时间到了。
Mm-hm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
But you know what's interesting about what you're saying right now is just, like, the kids in Ms. Jefferson's class are going to be pissed at you because they don't have the privilege they used to have, right?
但你知道你现在所说的有趣的是，就像杰斐逊女士班上的孩子们会对你生气，因为他们没有以前拥有的特权，对吧？
But they also have no concept of how you've been feeling all school year.
但他们也不知道你整个学年的感受如何。
Exactly.
确切地。
You don't know it's different for me.
你不知道这对我来说是不同的。
Well, I'm in her class, and you get to take her class.
好吧，我在她的班上，你也可以上她的课。
Isn't that the same?
那不是一样吗？
No. I know it should be, but it's not.
不，我知道应该是这样，但事实并非如此。
That doesn't matter to me.
这对我来说并不重要。
Well, then I have to do something.
好吧，那么我必须做点什么。
It felt unfair.
感觉不公平。
For Tone, this was always just a funny story he told about his dad's awkward Polaroid.
对于托恩来说，这始终只是他讲述的一个关于他父亲笨拙的宝丽来的有趣故事。
But he started talking to me about it a few weeks ago, during the height of the recent protests.
但几周前，在最近的抗议活动最激烈的时候，他开始和我谈论这件事。
And that made him think about the story differently.
这让他对这个故事有了不同的看法。
There's a parallel that I've never noticed or looked for, I guess, between how communities react when they don't feel like they're being treated fairly.
我想，当社区感觉自己没有受到公平对待时，他们的反应之间存在着我从未注意到或寻找过的相似之处。
Well, you know, what it makes me think of is, like, Jesus always talked in parables.
嗯，你知道，这让我想到的是，耶稣总是用比喻说话。
Right.
正确的。
Elna Baker And I feel like your Jefferson bucks story is such a perfect parable.
埃尔娜·贝克（Elna Baker） 我觉得你的杰斐逊雄鹿队的故事是一个完美的寓言。
I agree.
我同意。
When the rules are the same for everyone and some people thrive and some people don't, but everyone's following them, why is it not equal?
当规则对每个人都一样时，有些人会蓬勃发展，有些人则不然，但每个人都遵守这些规则，为什么不平等呢？
Why is it not fair?
为什么不公平？
And I don't even know if it can be answered most of the time.
而且大多数时候我什至不知道是否能得到解答。
But the question has to be asked.
但问题必须提出来。
If this is a parable, almost everything lines up-- the systematic inequality, the unfairness, how sometimes you have to break the rules in order for them to change.
如果这是一个比喻，那么几乎所有事情都是一致的——系统性的不平等、不公平，有时你必须打破规则才能改变规则。
I see what I'm supposed to learn from everyone.
我明白了我应该向每个人学习什么。
But the one thing neither of us could figure out is, what are we supposed to learn from Natasha?
但我们都无法弄清楚的一件事是，我们应该从娜塔莎身上学到什么？
Tone never told anyone she took half the money.
托恩从未告诉过任何人她拿走了一半的钱。
A crush is a crush.
暗恋就是暗恋。
So the real robber actually got away with it.
所以真正的强盗实际上逃脱了。
Elna Baker is one of the producers on our show.
埃尔娜·贝克是我们节目的制片人之一。
Tone Bell performed a version of this story on the Comedy Central program This Is Not Happening.
托恩·贝尔在喜剧中心节目《这不会发生》中表演了这个故事的一个版本。
His first hour-long special, "Can't Cancel This," is now available on Showtime and Amazon Prime.
他的第一部时长一小时的特别节目《Can't Cancel This》现已在 Showtime 和 Amazon Prime 上播出。
Our program was produced by Aviva DeKornfeld and me.
我们的节目是由 Aviva DeKornfeld 和我制作的。
People who made the show today include Bim Adewunmi, Elna Baker, Emanuele Berry, Ben Calhoun, Dana Chivvis, Noor Gill, Damien Graef, Seth Lind, Miki Meek, Stowe Nelson, Catherine Raimondo, Nadia Reiman, Robin Semien, Alissa Shipp, Lilly Sullivan, Christopher Swetala, and Matt Tierney.
今天制作该节目的人员包括 Bim Adewunmi、Elna Baker、Emanuele Berry、Ben Calhoun、Dana Chivvis、Noor Gill、Damien Graef、Seth Lind、Miki Meek、Stowe Nelson、Catherine Raimondo、Nadia Reiman、Robin Semien、Alissa Shipp、Lilly Sullivan、Christopher Swetala 和 Matt Tierney。
Our managing editors are Diane Wu and Sarah Abdurrahman.
我们的执行编辑是 Diane Wu 和 Sarah Abdurrahman。
Executive editor is David Kestenbaum.
执行编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。
Special thanks to Gianlucca Iazzolino, Michael Kimani, Joseph Ndiritu, Wycliffe Alutalala, Eyder Peralta, Monique Thompson, Kyle Dacuyan, Nicole Wallace, Deepali Gupta, Patricia Spears Jones, Laurel Chor, and all of the Uber drivers who agreed to talk with Benjamen Walker and me.
特别感谢 Gianlucca Iazzolino、Michael Kimani、Joseph Ndiritu、Wycliffe Alutalala、Eyder Peralta、Monique Thompson、Kyle Dacuyan、Nicole Wallace、Deepali Gupta、Patricia Spears Jones、Laurel Chor 以及所有同意与 Benjamen Walker 和我交谈的 Uber 司机。
Please check out the episode that Benjamen did called "Going Karura" on his podcast Theory of Everything.
请查看 Benjamen 在他的播客《万物理论》中名为“Going Karura”的剧集。
You can find it at theoryofeverythingpodcast.com or wherever you get your podcasts.
您可以在 theoryofeverythingpodcast.com 或任何可以获得播客的地方找到它。
Original music at the end of Act One was composed for us by Nicholas Payton.
第一幕结尾处的原创音乐是尼古拉斯·佩顿为我们创作的。
Our website is thisamericanlife.org.
我们的网站是 thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, of course, to my boss, Ira Glass, a man who still goes trick or treating on Halloween-- except now when he gets his treat, he still toilet papers the family's house.
当然，要感谢我的老板艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass），他仍然在万圣节时玩“不给糖就捣蛋”的游戏——只不过现在当他得到款待时，他仍然在家里堆卫生纸。
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Yeah, we call that tricking off.
是的，我们称之为欺骗。
I'm Sean Cole.
我是肖恩·科尔。
Join us next week for more stories of This American Life.
下周加入我们，了解更多关于《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。