706: A Mess to Be Reckoned With - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #706 | May 21, 2021 706: A Mess to Be Reckoned With Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 706 集 | 2021 年 5 月 21 日 706：不可忽视的混乱 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass It started as something that she was doing in her spare time and kind of took over her life.
序言：序言 Ira Glass 最初是她在业余时间做的事情，后来几乎占据了她的生活。
Lissa Yellow Bird searches for missing people, people nobody else is looking for, people the police have given up looking for.
丽莎黄鸟寻找失踪人员，其他人没有在寻找的人，警方已经放弃寻找的人。
A reporter, Sierra Crane Murdoch, met Lissa in 2014 when Sierra was looking into the disappearance of a young, white oil worker, KC Clarke.
2014 年，塞拉·克兰·默多克 (Sierra Crane Murdoch) 遇见了丽莎，当时塞拉正在调查年轻白人石油工人 KC Clarke 的失踪案。
He'd vanished a couple years before on the reservation Lissa's from in North Dakota.
几年前，他在北达科他州丽莎的保留地上失踪了。
Lissa was investigating it too.
丽莎也在调查此事。
She had just gotten out of prison.
她刚刚出狱。
She was looking for a distraction, a way to stay sober.
她正在寻找一种分散注意力的方式，一种保持清醒的方法。
And she basically opened up her files to me and allowed me to see the degree to which she had involved herself in this case.
她基本上向我开放了她的档案，让我看到她在这起案件中的参与程度。
She had actually spent years.
她实际上已经度过了很多年。
And she cracked that case through really, really non-traditional means, like by basically waging this campaign against the person who she believed had murdered KC Clarke.
她通过非常非常非传统的手段破获了这个案子，比如基本上针对她认为谋杀了 KC Clarke 的人发起了这场运动。
She mailed tens and tens of thousands of fliers around western North Dakota.
她在北达科他州西部地区邮寄了数以万计的传单。
The flyer said, "Beware", with a photo of the guy she thought murdered KC Clarke and his wife.
传单上写着“小心”，并附有一张她认为谋杀了 KC Clarke 和他妻子的人的照片。
And they did turn people against him.
他们确实让人们反对他。
But at the same time, Lissa befriended the wife.
但与此同时，丽莎与妻子成了朋友。
They were texting each other almost every day.
他们几乎每天都互相发短信。
They were talking on the phone constantly.
他们一直在打电话。
And so she had this really intimate window into the lives of these people she was trying to investigate.
因此，她有一个非常亲密的窗口来了解她试图调查的这些人的生活。
And through that window, she was able to see their vulnerabilities.
透过那扇窗户，她能够看到他们的弱点。
So at the same time that she was maintaining this faux friendship with this woman, she was also completely undermining her and her husband.
所以她在和这个女人维持这种虚假友谊的同时，也彻底破坏了她和她的丈夫。
And the case broke open.
于是案子就破了。
Sierra spent years with Lissa, watching this play out, and ended up writing a book about Lissa and the case.
塞拉（Sierra）与丽莎（Lissa）一起度过了数年，看着这一切的发展，并最终写了一本关于丽莎和此案的书。
They got close.
他们走近了。
Sierra would stay at Lissa's apartment for months.
塞拉在丽莎的公寓里住了几个月。
They'd drive through the badlands, running down leads, talked for hours every week when Sierra wasn't in North Dakota.
当塞拉不在北达科他州时，他们会开车穿过荒地，寻找线索，每周聊上几个小时。
And during those years, this thing happened.
而那些年，就发生过这样的事情。
Native American families started asking Lissa to look for their loved ones.
美国原住民家庭开始要求丽莎寻找他们的亲人。
Lissa's Arikara, a member of the Mandan Hidatsa Arikara Nation.
丽莎的阿里卡拉 (Lissa's Arikara)，曼丹希达查阿里卡拉 (Mandan Hidatsa Arikara) 民族的成员。
Remember, Lissa was just kind of inventing how she did this work.
请记住，丽莎只是发明了她如何完成这项工作。
Before this, she'd been a welder, a prison guard, a social worker, did some law enforcement work and studied criminal justice in college, but she'd also been a drug dealer.
在此之前，她曾担任过焊工、狱警、社会工作者，做过一些执法工作，并在大学学习过刑事司法，但她也曾是一名毒贩。
Lissa has lived on both sides of the law, which is what makes her so good at what she does.
丽莎生活在法律的两面，这就是她如此擅长所做的事情的原因。
She's gone to prison.
她进了监狱。
She knows how law enforcement operates from a perpetrator's point of view as well.
她也知道执法部门如何从犯罪者的角度运作。
In dozens of cases now, sometimes on her own, sometimes with law enforcement.
现在已经处理了数十起案件，有时是她自己，有时是与执法部门合作。
Lissa has deployed the same doggedness and resourcefulness that she marshaled in that first case.
丽莎表现出了她在第一个案例中所表现出的同样的顽强和足智多谋。
Like, for example, when a woman named Olivia Lone Bear went missing from Lissa's reservation in 2017, there was this national search for her.
例如，2017 年，一名名叫 Olivia Lone Bear 的妇女在 Lissa 的保留地失踪后，全国范围内都在寻找她。
But Lissa's theory was she might not be far from home, where she was last seen.
但丽莎的理论是，她可能离家不远，也就是她最后一次被人看见的地方。
And one day, she decided to take a boat out on the lake near Olivia's house with some fishing sonar that she'd bought years earlier thinking someday it might come in handy to find missing people.
有一天，她决定在奥利维亚家附近的湖上划船，带着她多年前买的钓鱼声纳，想着有一天它可能会派上用场来寻找失踪的人。
She just launched the boat.
她刚刚下水了船。
And yeah, within about 10 minutes, her younger relative spotted some shape on the fishing sonar and said, hey, Auntie, what's that?
是的，大约 10 分钟内，她年轻的亲戚在钓鱼声纳上发现了一些形状，然后说，嘿，阿姨，那是什么？
And Lissa looked at it, and it was a truck.
丽莎一看，那是一辆卡车。
And Olivia was inside.
奥利维亚就在里面。
Months before this, Lissa and Olivia's family had tried to convince law enforcement authorities to look in that lake.
在此之前的几个月，丽莎和奥利维亚的家人曾试图说服执法当局调查那个湖。
Lots of Native Americans go missing and are never found.
许多美洲原住民失踪并且从未被发现。
We don't even have good statistics on this, because the cases are so underreported and poorly tracked.
我们甚至没有这方面的良好统计数据，因为案件报告不足且追踪不力。
A big part of the problem?
问题的很大一部分？
There are these federal laws that limit who can investigate cases and how they can investigate them on reservations, which leads to a jurisdictional tangle.
这些联邦法律限制了谁可以调查案件以及他们如何在保留的情况下调查案件，这导致了管辖权的混乱。
And it's often not clear which law enforcement agency is supposed to take a case.
而且通常不清楚哪个执法机构应该受理此案。
If you don't know if they disappeared from on a reservation or off a reservation, it's really hard to say whose responsibility that case is.
如果你不知道他们是在预订中失踪还是在预订外失踪，真的很难说这起案件是谁的责任。
On the reservation, tribal police or the federal authorities.
在保留地，部落警察或联邦当局。
Off the reservation, city, or county, or state police.
保留地、城市、县或州警察。
But because it's so unclear, those cases can become a lot lower priority, or those cases can be ignored by all jurisdictions.
但由于不清楚，这些案件的优先级可能会低很多，或者所有司法管辖区都可能会忽略这些案件。
And that's where Lissa Yellow Bird comes in.
这就是丽莎黄鸟的用武之地。
She searches for the people who slip through these jurisdictional cracks.
她寻找那些从这些管辖裂缝中溜走的人。
So what's the story you're about to tell?
那么你要讲的故事是什么？
So in 2016, Lissa's own niece went missing.
于是在2016年，Lissa自己的侄女失踪了。
And this was the first time that she went searching for someone who wasn't a stranger.
而这还是她第一次去寻找一个不陌生的人。
She just never expected that it would happen to her own relative.
只是她万万没想到，这样的事会发生在自己的亲人身上。
But this case is really remarkable for a lot of reasons.
但由于很多原因，这个案例确实很引人注目。
For one, she figured it out in just five days.
其一，她在短短五天内就弄清楚了。
She also recorded all of her conversations, which is something that Lissa does a lot.
她还记录了她所有的谈话，这是丽莎经常做的事情。
She saves everything.
她拯救了一切。
She photographs everything.
她拍摄一切。
She records everything.
她记录了一切。
And Lissa gave me these phone calls that she'd recorded over the course of these five days.
丽莎给了我这些她在这五天内录制的电话。
And they were just incredible because they really showed how she was able to break this case open in a minute-by-minute way.
他们真是令人难以置信，因为他们确实展示了她如何能够以分钟的方式打开这个案子。
Sierra says another thing about this case-- she and Lissa talked for hours all the time about everything.
关于这个案子，塞拉还说了另一件事——她和丽莎总是就所有事情谈论几个小时。
But after those five days when Lissa was working this case--
但在丽莎处理这个案子的那五天之后——
She just kind of went quiet about it.
她只是对此保持沉默。
We didn't talk about it for years, which is really unusual because Lissa is always talking about her cases.
我们已经很多年没有谈论这件事了，这真的很不寻常，因为丽莎总是谈论她的案件。
She just never talked about this case again, though.
不过，她再也没有谈论过这个案子。
And I knew that-- I knew because she was so quiet about it, and I knew also because it was her own relative that it had affected her in a way that no other case had.
我知道这一点——我知道，因为她对此非常安静，而且我也知道，因为这是她自己的亲戚，这对她的影响是其他案件所没有的。
But I didn't really know why, entirely.
但我完全不知道为什么。
I thought there was something else going on.
我以为还有其他事情发生。
And three years passed, and that was when she finally said, OK, yeah, I'm ready to talk about it.
三年过去了，那时她终于说，好吧，是的，我准备好谈论这件事了。
She wanted to talk about it.
她想谈谈这件事。
Sierra suggested doing a story, and Lissa said yes.
塞拉建议做一个故事，丽莎答应了。
She wanted people to hear it.
她希望人们听到它。
And that is what we're bringing you today.
这就是我们今天为您带来的内容。
We listen in on this exceptional investigator, Lissa Yellow Bird.
我们聆听这位杰出的调查员丽莎·黄鸟 (Lissa Yellow Bird) 的故事。
Those phone calls, they are really amazing.
这些电话，真是太神奇了。
She just knows how to read people and how to pull information out of them that other people cannot get.
她只知道如何读懂别人，如何从他们身上获取别人无法获得的信息。
And we hear her crack this case in five very intense days.
我们听说她在非常紧张的五天里破获了这个案子。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
And before we get to this story, a heads up.
在我们开始讲这个故事之前，先声明一下。
This story mentions violence, including sexual violence.
这个故事提到了暴力，包括性暴力。
Here's Sierra Crane Murdoch.
请听塞拉·克莱恩·默多克的报道。
The last time I saw Lissa, we were at her grandma's house on the Fort Berthold Indian Reservation.
我最后一次见到丽莎是在她位于贝特霍尔德堡印第安人保留地的奶奶家。
This was in February.
这是二月份的事。
Her mom had called her over to find their missing cat, not something Lissa usually searches for, but she drove over right away in her hot pink pajamas.
她妈妈叫她过去寻找失踪的猫，这不是莉莎通常会寻找的东西，但她穿着粉红色的睡衣立即开车过去。
And while everyone's eating breakfast, Lissa walks to the window, stares out with binoculars.
当每个人都在吃早餐时，丽莎走到窗前，用双筒望远镜向外凝视。
Lissa thinks some coyotes got the cat.
丽莎认为是土狼抓住了这只猫。
A few days earlier, her mom bought a hunting rifle, and everyone's cracking up at the idea of Lissa's mom, a retired professor who doesn't like to be outside and who's never had a gun, taking to the porch with her rifle.
几天前，她的妈妈买了一把猎枪，每个人都对丽莎的妈妈的想法大笑，她是一位退休教授，不喜欢外出，也从未拥有过枪，带着她的步枪走到门廊上。
Lissa asks her nephew, Mercury, to teach her mom how to use it.
丽莎请她的侄子墨丘利教她妈妈如何使用它。
Yeah, it's a scary situation, Mercury.
是的，这是一个可怕的情况，水星。
We need your help.
我们需要你的帮助。
Lissa goes to the bedroom to get the rifle.
丽莎去卧室拿步枪。
She comes back holding a guitar case and hands it to Mercury.
她拿着一个吉他盒回来，把它交给了水星。
Lissa Yellow Bird I wasn't even paying attention.
丽莎黄鸟 我什至没有注意。
It's like, oh.
就好像，哦。
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
I picked it up by the neck, and I thought it was a barrel and stuff.
我抓住它的脖子把它捡起来，我以为那是一个桶之类的东西。
It was a Fender guitar.
那是一把 Fender 吉他。
Sing some songs to those coyotes.
给那些土狼唱一些歌。
[LAUGHS] Ooh-- you'll be out there with the chair, just singing away.
[笑]哦——你会拿着椅子在那里唱歌。
My bad.
我的不好。
OK, everybody got the laugh of the day.
好吧，今天大家都笑了。
The Yellow Birds are really close.
黄鸟真的很接近。
At any time, you'll find four generations of them just hanging out at Lissa's grandma's house for days on end.
在任何时候，你都会发现他们的四代人在丽莎的奶奶家连续几天闲逛。
And it was at this house-- everyone eating, laughing, watching television-- where they last saw Lissa's niece, Carla Yellow Bird, before she went missing.
正是在这所房子里——每个人都在吃饭、大笑、看电视——他们最后一次见到丽莎的侄女卡拉·黄鸟，然后她失踪了。
That was in August of 2016.
那是2016年8月的事。
At first, they weren't that worried.
起初，他们并没有那么担心。
Carla didn't live with the Yellow Birds.
卡拉并不和黄鸟住在一起。
She lived about two hours away off the reservation, but she was always stopping by, sometimes stayed the night.
她住的地方距离保留地大约有两个小时的路程，但她总是过来，有时会过夜。
She was 27, had lots of energy, confident.
她27岁，精力充沛，自信。
She'd walk into her family's house, plug her iPhone into their speakers, and start jamming hip hop.
她会走进家人的房子，将 iPhone 插入他们的扬声器，然后开始即兴演奏嘻哈音乐。
And it wasn't unusual for Carla to take off for a few days, not answer when they called.
对于卡拉来说，离开几天而不接听他们的电话并不罕见。
When she stopped coming around, her family told Lissa, don't worry.
当她不再出现时，她的家人告诉丽莎，别担心。
We were like, oh, she's just out doing her thing, or she's probably doing something she shouldn't be.
我们当时想，哦，她只是出去做她的事情，或者她可能做了一些她不应该做的事情。
So, she'll come out.
那么，她就会出来。
Lissa was starting to worry though.
不过丽莎开始担心了。
Carla was the daughter of one of Lissa's favorite relatives, Uncle Chucky.
卡拉是丽莎最喜欢的亲戚之一查基叔叔的女儿。
He died a few years earlier.
他几年前去世了。
One of the last things he'd asked Lissa was to look out for Carla.
他要求丽莎做的最后一件事就是照顾卡拉。
Then one morning, Lissa had a dream about Chucky.
有一天早上，丽莎做了一个关于查基的梦。
It wasn't long.
时间不长。
He just kind of appeared, and he said, you need to go get Carla now.
他突然出现了，他说，你现在就去找卡拉。
Lissa called her family and found out the night before they'd asked a holy woman to come to the house and pray for Carla.
丽莎打电话给她的家人，发现前一天晚上他们邀请了一位圣女来家里为卡拉祈祷。
They hadn't wanted to tell Lissa.
他们不想告诉丽莎。
And I was like, what do you mean you had a ceremony?
我当时想，你举行仪式是什么意思？
So if you guys didn't think anything was wrong, what would you be having a ceremony for?
那么如果你们不觉得有什么问题的话，你们要举行仪式是为了什么呢？
And I said, look, somebody needs to come clean with me and tell me what the hell is really going on.
我说，听着，需要有人跟我坦白并告诉我到底发生了什么。
Her mom told her they actually were really worried.
她妈妈告诉她，他们真的很担心。
At this point, no one had heard from Carla in weeks.
此时，已有几周没有人收到卡拉的消息了。
And I said, why did you guys lie to me?
我说，你们为什么要骗我？
Well, we didn't lie, we just don't want you to put all this stuff out on social media, and we know that's probably what will happen.
好吧，我们没有撒谎，我们只是不想让你把所有这些东西放在社交媒体上，我们知道这可能会发生。
Lissa's family told her they didn't want it on social media, out of protectiveness for Carla.
丽莎的家人告诉她，出于对卡拉的保护，他们不想在社交媒体上发布这些信息。
Carla had been in some legal trouble.
卡拉遇到了一些法律麻烦。
She was addicted to meth.
她对冰毒上瘾了。
They didn't want to make things harder for her.
他们不想让她的事情变得更难。
Lissa thought maybe they were also embarrassed.
丽莎想也许他们也感到尴尬。
In the Yellow Bird family are professors, anthropologists, social workers, all very aware of the stereotypes used to shame native communities.
黄鸟家族中有教授、人类学家、社会工作者，他们都非常清楚用来羞辱土著社区的刻板印象。
Being drunken, being filthy, being all these labels that they give us that, when something of that nature takes over one of our family members, the last thing we want to admit is that it's hit us.
醉酒，肮脏，这些他们给我们贴上的标签，当这种性质的东西占据了我们的一位家庭成员时，我们最不想承认的就是它打击了我们。
I think what it boils down to is trying to keep a good reputation.
我认为归根结底就是努力保持良好的声誉。
So I think that played a major role of shame.
所以我认为羞耻感发挥了重要作用。
Lissa's seen this firsthand with how the family treated her.
丽莎亲眼目睹了这家人对待她的方式。
She was addicted to meth, spent three years in prison for dealing.
她对冰毒上瘾，并因交易入狱三年。
For a while, her family avoided her.
有一段时间，她的家人都回避她。
Even now, Lissa's been sober 15 years, and they don't like to talk about it.
即使现在，莉莎已经戒酒15年了，他们也不喜欢谈论这件事。
Lissa's mom doesn't even use the word "prison." She calls it "Lissa's other college."
丽莎的妈妈甚至没有使用“监狱”这个词。她称之为“丽莎的另一所大学”。
Lissa couldn't disagree more with this attitude.
丽莎非常不同意这种态度。
She believes that when someone goes missing, that's the worst possible time to hide the facts.
她认为，当有人失踪时，这是隐藏事实的最糟糕的时机。
Often the things someone is trying to cover up can be part of what led them to go missing in the first place.
通常，某人试图掩盖的事情可能是导致他们失踪的部分原因。
Lissa called Carla's mom, Loretta.
丽莎给卡拉的妈妈洛雷塔打电话。
Loretta lived a few hours away on another reservation, and the Yellow Birds didn't know her very well.
洛雷塔住在几个小时之外的另一个保留地，黄鸟队对她不太了解。
Carla's parents weren't together long.
卡拉的父母在一起的时间并不长。
Loretta told Lissa she'd reported Carla missing a few weeks earlier.
洛雷塔告诉丽莎，她几周前就报告了卡拉失踪。
Lissa offered to help find Carla, and Loretta said yes.
丽莎主动提出帮助寻找卡拉，洛雷塔答应了。
So Lissa got to work.
于是丽莎开始工作。
One of the first people she called was the officer responsible for the case, April Jose, a detective for the city of Mandan, where Carla lived.
她首先打电话给负责此案的警官阿普丽尔·何塞（April Jose），她是卡拉居住的曼丹市的一名侦探。
April said she'd learned that in the days before Carla disappeared, Carla was on the Fort Berthold Reservation, and she might have gone to a second reservation, called Spirit Lake.
艾普丽尔说，她得知卡拉失踪前几天，卡拉住在贝特霍尔德堡保留地，她可能去了第二个保留地，名叫灵湖。
But April didn't have jurisdiction on reservations.
但四月没有保留权。
She was a city cop.
她是一名城市警察。
This is another part of the jurisdictional tangle in these cases.
这是这些案件中管辖权纠纷的另一部分。
April was trying to follow every lead, but she could only go so far.
艾普丽尔试图追踪每一条线索，但她只能走这么远。
To interview suspects on the reservation, she needed the cooperation of law enforcement there.
为了采访保留地的嫌疑人，她需要当地执法部门的合作。
It's part of the Bureau of Indian Affairs.
它是印第安事务局的一部分。
But no one was calling her back.
但没有人给她回电话。
She did tell me this spans five states and three reservations.
她确实告诉我这跨越了五个州和三个保留地。
My hands are tied.
我的手被绑住了。
And I said, mine aren't.
我说，我的不是。
I'll go wherever.
我会去任何地方。
This is my niece.
这是我的侄女。
So Lissa did exactly the thing her family didn't want her to do.
所以丽莎做了她家人不希望她做的事情。
She opened Facebook and wrote, "Carla Yellow Bird has been missing, and I want to know any and all info related to her disappearance before I take this to the next level." People in the broader native community know Lissa, the work she does.
她打开脸书并写道：“卡拉·黄鸟失踪了，在我将此事提升到一个新的水平之前，我想知道与她失踪有关的所有信息。”更广泛的原住民社区的人们都知道丽莎和她所做的工作。
When she puts something on Facebook, people respond, give her leads they might be more cautious about giving police.
当她在 Facebook 上发布内容时，人们会做出回应，向她提供线索，他们可能会在向警方提供线索时更加谨慎。
She started getting calls right away, and she learned Carla was last seen driving around with two men on the Spirit Lake Indian Reservation.
她立即接到电话，得知卡拉最后一次被人看到是和两个男人在灵湖印第安人保留地开车兜风。
And they just describe it was an older car.
他们只是描述这是一辆旧车。
It was smaller.
它更小。
It had two different kinds of paint, maybe a replacement front quarter panel.
它有两种不同的油漆，也许是替换的前四分之一面板。
And it had plastic on one window.
一扇窗户上有塑料。
So when I put that out there, people from Spirit Lake, people from Bismarck were like, hey, we saw that car.
所以当我把它放在那里时，来自精神湖的人们，来自俾斯麦的人们就像，嘿，我们看到了那辆车。
We saw these people.
我们看到了这些人。
We know Carla.
我们认识卡拉。
That car belongs to Suna Guy's father.
那辆车属于苏娜·盖伊的父亲。
Suna Guy, she hears this name a few times.
苏娜·盖伊，这个名字她听过好几次了。
He's a member of the Spirit Lake Tribe.
他是灵湖部落的一员。
So Lissa posts again on Facebook, says her niece was last seen with Suna Guy, gives his full name.
于是，丽莎再次在脸书上发帖，称她的侄女最后一次见到苏娜·盖伊，并给出了他的全名。
And within a few hours, she gets a call from a blocked number.
几个小时后，她接到了一个被屏蔽号码打来的电话。
Why is my name being put in stuff when I don't even know what's going on?
为什么我的名字会出现在我不知道发生了什么的情况下？
It's Suna.
是苏娜。
Suna Guy I'm not a bad guy, you know what I mean?
Suna Guy 我不是坏人，你知道我的意思吗？
If there's a way I can help anybody, I try.
如果有办法可以帮助任何人，我会尝试。
I mean-- what's your name again?
我是说——你叫什么名字？
I don't even know your name, but I'm calling you.
我什至不知道你的名字，但我打电话给你。
Lissa.
丽莎。
Lissa Yellow Bird Say it 16 times, and you won't forget it.
丽莎黄鸟 说16遍就不会忘记。
[LAUGHS] Yeah.
[笑]是的。
Lissa Yellow Bird So do you have any other insight into what happened to Carla?
丽莎黄鸟 那么你对卡拉的遭遇还有其他的见解吗？
Do I?
我是吗？
No, I don't.
不，我不。
I'm just trying to clear up the air where-- hey, I made contact with you guys.
我只是想澄清一下——嘿，我和你们取得了联系。
I'm just letting you guys know only what I know.
我只是把我所知道的告诉大家而已。
That's all I know.
我只知道这些。
Mm-hm.
嗯嗯。
Sierra Crane Murdoch There are long stretches where Lissa doesn't say anything, just lets Suna fill the silence.
Sierra Crane Murdoch 丽莎有很长一段时间没有说话，只是让苏娜填补沉默。
Lissa sounds sort of unimpressed, which is tactical.
丽莎听起来有点不为所动，这是战术性的。
So do you want to give me your phone number?
那么你愿意给我你的电话号码吗？
Or do you feel kind of paranoid about that?
或者你对此感到有点偏执？
Why would I be paranoid?
我为什么会偏执呢？
What I'm just saying-- does all that mean--
我刚才说的——这一切意味着——
Well, I don't know.
嗯，我不知道。
I'm just saying, you know?
我只是说，你知道吗？
I understand where you're coming from.
我明白你来自哪里。
You know what?
你知道吗？
Put it like this.
这样说吧。
Only certain people have my phone number.
只有某些人知道我的电话号码。
OK, so you don't want to give it to me then?
好吧，那么你不想把它给我吗？
Is that what you're saying?
你是这么说的吗？
OK.
好的。
Suna Guy You make me feel like I've got something hiding or something.
苏娜·盖伊（Suna Guy） 你让我觉得我有什么隐瞒之类的事情。
Maybe I did-- I mean, I feel I'm doing something right by contacting you and letting you know.
也许我做到了——我的意思是，我觉得通过联系你并让你知道我正在做正确的事情。
Well, I'm not-- like I said, I appreciate it.
嗯，我不是——就像我说的，我很感激。
I'm not trying to give you that feeling.
我并不是想给你那种感觉。
I'm not trying to give you that feeling at all.
我根本不想给你那种感觉。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
Lissa Yellow Bird What I'm trying to do is I'm trying to find out where my niece is at.
丽莎黄鸟 我想做的是找出我的侄女在哪里。
Yeah, I understand.
是的，我明白。
And like I said I mean, if I knew more than what I only know-- I'm being honest to got truth-- I would give you all the information I do know-- I would know, you know what I mean?
就像我说的，我的意思是，如果我知道的不仅仅是我所知道的——我诚实地了解真相——我会给你我所知道的所有信息——我会知道，你明白我的意思吗？
Lissa spends a lot of this conversation trying to get Suna to give her his number.
丽莎花了很多时间试图让苏娜给她他的电话号码。
I should say Lissa is really good at talking on the phone.
我应该说丽莎非常擅长打电话。
She told me once, you know me, I'll keep a dumbass on the phone forever.
有一次她告诉我，你了解我，我会永远在电话里保持傻瓜状态。
Yeah, I try to help people the best I can.
是的，我尽力帮助人们。
Yeah, well, I sure could use your help finding my niece.
是的，好吧，我确实需要你的帮助才能找到我的侄女。
I mean, most definitely.
我的意思是，绝对是。
Like I say, I mean, sorry, I'm not trying to be an asshole or nothing, but I mean, if I come across and hear anything, I'll contact you, you know what I mean?
就像我说的，我的意思是，抱歉，我并不是想成为一个混蛋或什么都不是，但我的意思是，如果我遇到并听到任何消息，我会联系你，你知道我的意思吗？
Yep.
是的。
Well, it's the only way we're going to get to the bottom of things, OK?
好吧，这是我们查清真相的唯一方法，好吗？
So you'll call me in the morning then?
那么你早上会打电话给我吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Like I say, I mean, I don't got nothing to hide.
就像我说的，我的意思是，我没有什么可隐瞒的。
Other than that, I got my kids up here.
除此之外，我把我的孩子们带到了这里。
I got to get them ready for bed here.
我得让他们准备好上床睡觉。
My wife gets off work here pretty soon, so--
我妻子在这里很快就下班了，所以——
All right.
好吧。
Suna Guy All right.
苏娜盖伊 好吧。
Have a good night.
祝你晚安。
Bye.
再见。
Mother fuck.
妈他妈的。
Sierra Crane Murdoch Lissa thinks he's lying.
塞拉·克莱恩·默多克·丽莎认为他在撒谎。
Suna knows something.
苏娜知道一些事情。
The next day, Lissa tracked down the other guy people had seen in the car with Suna and Carla the night she disappeared.
第二天，丽莎找到了失踪当晚人们在车上与苏娜和卡拉一起看到的另一个人。
He was a friend of Carla's, named Jason.
他是卡拉的朋友，名叫杰森。
Lissa got him on the phone.
丽莎给他打电话。
Don't know if she's OK or where she's at.
不知道她是否还好，也不知道她在哪里。
Jason said Carla had drugs she wanted to sell in Spirit Lake, so Suna had offered to pick her up a few hours away and drive her and Jason back to the reservation.
杰森说卡拉有毒品想在灵湖出售，所以苏娜提出在几个小时外接她，并开车送她和杰森回到保留地。
When they got there, Jason said Suna ditched him and took off with Carla and some other guys, guys who are known as scary, violent.
当他们到达那里时，杰森说苏娜抛弃了他，并与卡拉和其他一些人一起离开，这些人被认为是可怕的、暴力的。
Then hours later, Jason ran into them again, but Carla wasn't with them.
几个小时后，杰森再次遇到他们，但卡拉并不在他们身边。
You know what?
你知道吗？
I'm thinking they killed her.
我想他们杀了她
Knowing Suna, he-- Lissa Yellow Bird He'd kill her.
了解苏娜，他——丽莎黄鸟 他会杀了她。
Lissa was starting to feel sure that Carla was dead.
丽莎开始确信卡拉已经死了。
At the same time, she was gathering leads.
与此同时，她也在收集线索。
She was also talking almost every day with April Jose, the detective in Mandan.
她还几乎每天都与曼丹的侦探阿普丽尔·何塞交谈。
April had gotten a hold of Carla's phone records, bank account, and seen no activity.
艾普尔掌握了卡拉的电话记录和银行账户，但没有发现任何活动。
Lissa decides she needs to apply more pressure, so she goes on Facebook again, blasts Suna's name in another public post.
丽莎决定她需要施加更多压力，因此她再次登录 Facebook，在另一篇公开帖子中抨击了苏娜的名字。
She writes, "I have been given information that Carla was last seen riding with Suna Guy.
她写道：“我得到的消息是卡拉最后一次被看到是和苏娜·盖伊一起骑马。
Please contact me by private message.
请通过私信联系我。
Your confidentiality is assured." And then the phone rings.
您的机密性得到保证。”然后电话响了。
Hello.
你好。
Is this Lisa?
这是丽莎吗？
Lissa?
丽莎？
Sierra Crane Murdoch It's Suna.
塞拉·克莱恩·默多克 我是苏娜。
Remember what I said?
还记得我说过的话吗？
If you say it 16 times, you'll remember it?
说16遍你就能记住吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Well, what is this that you're posting on Facebook that your niece was last seen with me and my girlfriend?
好吧，你在 Facebook 上发布的最后一次看到你侄女与我和我女朋友在一起的内容是什么？
Oh, I didn't say your girlfriend.
哦，我没说你女朋友。
I didn't say your girlfriend.
我没说你女朋友啊
You need to reread the post.
您需要重新阅读该帖子。
Well-- Lissa Yellow Bird You need to get honest with me, because I'm done playing.
好吧——Lissa Yellow Bird 你需要对我诚实，因为我已经玩够了。
Well, I been only honest with you.
好吧，我只对你诚实。
I don't know what you want me to make anything else up more, I mean, because I'm not making nothing up.
我不知道你想让我编出什么更多的东西，我的意思是，因为我什么也没编。
Well, from what I understand, Carla's gone.
嗯，据我所知，卡拉已经走了。
And you know what?
你知道吗？
Oh, well, she's gone.
哦，好吧，她走了。
There's nothing I can do about that, but I want to know where her fucking body is.
我对此无能为力，但我想知道她他妈的尸体在哪里。
I'm done playing this shit.
我已经玩完了这个狗屎。
Do you know what?
你知道什么吗？
You're making me feel like I got to say something.
你让我觉得我必须说点什么。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Huh?
啊？
Lissa Yellow Bird Nobody cares about how you feel.
丽莎黄鸟 没有人关心你的感受。
I just told you I want my niece's body back.
我刚刚告诉过你我想要回我侄女的尸体
Somebody better fucking come up.
最好有人他妈的出现。
What is it going to take, some cash so y'all can go get high again?
需要什么，一些现金才能让你们再次兴奋起来？
Who's getting high?
谁变高了？
Lissa Yellow Bird You're getting high.
丽莎黄鸟 你越来越嗨了。
Don't play me.
别玩我。
[INAUDIBLE] Lissa Yellow Bird Don't play me.
[听不清] 丽莎黄鸟 别玩我。
You have a reputation out there.
你在外面很有名气。
You have a reputation.
你有声誉。
Of what?
属于什么？
Lissa Yellow Bird I'm not going to explain that to you.
丽莎黄鸟 我不会向你解释这一点。
You know it better than I do.
你比我更清楚。
I'm just saying--
我只是说——
You know what?
你知道吗？
Lissa Yellow Bird I'm just saying, what's it going to cost me, Suna?
丽莎黄鸟 我只是说，这会让我付出什么代价，苏娜？
Because that's what you're all about, right?
因为这就是你的全部目的，对吧？
Huh?
啊？
What?
什么？
Lissa Yellow Bird Right?
丽莎黄鸟 对吗？
That you want to get high?
你想变高吗？
I'll give you five grand to get your fucking high on.
我会给你五块钱让你尽情享受。
Maybe you'll take yourself out with that, but oh, well.
也许你会因此而出局，但是哦，好吧。
I want my niece's body.
我想要我侄女的身体。
How about that?
怎么样？
You know what?
你知道吗？
Lissa Yellow Bird I'm being fucking real with you.
丽莎黄鸟 我对你说实话。
You're asking somebody to-- Lissa Yellow Bird I'm being way fucking real with you.
你要求某人-- Lissa Yellow Bird 我对你太他妈的真实了。
And you know what?
你知道吗？
I tell you, I'm a fucking mess to be reckoned with when I'm fucking mad.
我告诉你，当我生气的时候，我就是一个他妈的乱七八糟的人。
And now I'm getting fucking mad.
现在我真他妈的生气了。
I don't even know what anybody's even talking about.
我什至不知道别人在说什么。
So what's up, Suna?
那么，怎么了，苏娜？
Let's get honest here.
让我们说实话。
If you need to come up with a defense, whatever, but I want to know where her body's at, plain and simple.
如果你需要提出防御，无论如何，但我想知道她的身体在哪里，简单明了。
Well, you know what?
嗯，你知道吗？
I made the initiative to call you and tell you what only I know.
我主动给你打电话，告诉你只有我知道的事情。
You know what?
你知道吗？
Suna Guy And that's all I know.
苏娜·盖伊 这就是我所知道的。
You think I haven't dealt with your kind of people before?
你以为我以前没有和你这种人打过交道吗？
I have.
我有。
I'll come get her personally, myself, if I have to, but I want to know.
如果有必要的话，我会亲自来接她，但我想知道。
If you have any fucking faith in anything in your life, just fucking tell me where her body's at.
如果你他妈的对你生活中的任何事情有任何信心，就他妈的告诉我她的尸体在哪里。
What do you want me to say to you?
你想让我对你说什么？
What do you want me to say to you?
你想让我对你说什么？
What do you want me to--
你想让我做什么——
The truth.
事实。
How about let's try for the truth.
让我们尝试一下真相如何。
Suna, you know what?
苏娜，你知道吗？
When you want to get honest, you want to get fucking real, and you want to try and save your own ass, call me back.
当你想要说实话，想要变得真实，想要尝试拯救自己的时候，请给我回电话。
But until then, I'm fucking done, OK?
但在那之前，我就完蛋了，好吗？
OK then.
那么好吧。
That's fine.
没关系。
Lissa Yellow Bird All right, cool.
丽莎黄鸟 好吧，酷。
Suna still hasn't told her anything.
苏娜还没有告诉她任何事情。
But this time, Lissa doesn't try to keep him on the phone.
但这一次，丽莎没有试图让他继续打电话。
She hangs up on him, the guy whose number she doesn't have, the guy she suspects murdered her niece.
她挂断了他的电话，她不知道这个人的电话号码，她怀疑那个人谋杀了她的侄女。
Lissa's anger here, that's not a tactic.
丽莎的愤怒在这里，那不是策略。
She's enraged.
她很生气。
What's crazy to me is that Suna stays on the phone and takes it, and then unprompted decides to call her back, just 10 hours later.
让我疯狂的是，苏娜一直在打电话，接听电话，然后突然决定给她回电话，就在 10 小时后。
No, I don't.
不，我不。
I don't know who Carla is.
我不知道卡拉是谁。
I didn't even speak with Carla.
我什至没有和卡拉说过话。
She's got all this dope on her, and you didn't even know who she was.
她浑身上下都沾满了毒品，你甚至不知道她是谁。
Please.
请。
I didn't even know what kind of dope or how much dope she had on--
我什至不知道她吸的是哪种毒品，也不知道她吸了多少毒品——
Do you know what?
你知道什么吗？
I will get my name cleared.
我会洗清我的罪名的。
I'm going to speak with the cops, with an attorney.
我要和警察、律师谈谈。
Anything further that goes on with my name, I could press slander and harassment onto it.
任何与我的名字有关的事情，我都可以对其进行诽谤和骚扰。
Do it.
做吧。
I hope that's not a threat, because I'm ready.
我希望这不是威胁，因为我已经准备好了。
It's not a threat.
这不是威胁。
I'm just telling you--
我只是告诉你——
I'll be sharing with you what's being shared with me, you know what I mean?
我将与您分享与我分享的内容，您知道我的意思吗？
I'm being real with you.
我对你很真实。
I got enough shit on you right now, OK?
我现在对你已经受够了，好吗？
On me?
在我身上？
Lissa Yellow Bird I got enough shit on you right now, and that's all I'm going to say, OK?
丽莎·黄鸟 我现在已经受够了你了，这就是我要说的，好吗？
I know you were mad earlier, and I'm not trying to piss you off.
我知道你刚才很生气，我并不是想惹恼你。
It's going to take me a minute to get my fucking ducks in a row.
我要花一分钟才能把我的事情整理好。
You go ahead and try and bring slander, because I've had bigger fish try to bring me down, people with multi-millions of dollars.
你继续尝试诽谤，因为我有更大的鱼试图让我失望，那些拥有数百万美元的人。
I understand.
我明白。
Lissa Yellow Bird And you know what?
丽莎黄鸟 你知道吗？
Good fucking luck.
祝你好运。
Carla and Lissa had some things in common.
卡拉和丽莎有一些共同点。
There are obvious things.
有一些显而易见的事情。
They both had addictions.
他们俩都有瘾。
They were both mothers.
她们都是母亲。
They really loved their kids.
他们真的很爱他们的孩子。
But because of their addictions, they'd had their kids taken away from them for stretches of time.
但由于他们的毒瘾，他们的孩子已经被从他们身边带走了很长一段时间。
They knew how awful that felt.
他们知道那感觉有多糟糕。
It was a lot for her.
这对她来说意义重大。
I'm sure I wasn't the favorite auntie, because I was worried.
我确信我不是最喜欢的阿姨，因为我很担心。
I'd say-- if she was doing wrong, I could tell just by the way our first eye contact was.
我会说——如果她做错了，我可以通过我们第一次目光接触的方式就知道。
And she'd be like, jeez, auntie, you know?
她会说，天哪，阿姨，你知道吗？
Not every time I'm here is bad.
并不是每次我来这里都是糟糕的。
Lissa says Carla was a really cute kid-- kind of shy, giddy.
丽莎说卡拉是一个非常可爱的孩子——有点害羞，有点轻浮。
But as Carla got older, Lissa would get on her case.
但随着卡拉长大，丽莎开始处理她的案子。
Carla was known to take your stuff, little things.
众所周知，卡拉会拿走你的东西，小东西。
Like if you left your earrings out, you might later see your relative wearing them.
就像如果您忘记了耳环，您稍后可能会看到您的亲戚戴着它们。
And they'd be like, look at the cute earrings Carla gave me.
他们会说，看看卡拉送给我的可爱耳环。
The last time Lissa saw Carla, they were at their grandma's house.
丽莎最后一次见到卡拉是在奶奶家。
Lissa walked in on Carla raiding the fridge.
丽莎走进来，看到卡拉正在搜查冰箱。
And all of a sudden, I see this big, gaudy, fake diamond ring.
突然，我看到了这枚又大又花哨的假钻戒。
I didn't even see her head, because she had it so far in there trying to get some munchies out.
我什至没有看到她的头，因为她一直把头埋在那里，试图取出一些零食。
It was like this two-karat-- I don't even think it was a cubic zirconia.
就像这个两克拉——我什至不认为它是立方氧化锆。
And I was like, oh, my god.
我当时想，哦，天啊。
She heard my voice, and her head popped up.
她听到我的声音，抬起头来。
And she was like, oh, here she comes to pick on me again.
她就说，哦，她又来找我的茬了。
She's like, what, what?
她就像，什么，什么？
And I went over there, and I literally grabbed that fake gem.
我去了那里，我真的抓住了那颗假宝石。
And I said, let me see this once.
我说，让我看一次。
And she took it off, and she was like, oh, my god.
她把它脱下来，然后她就像，哦，天啊。
I thought you were going to start in on me again.
我以为你又要开始对我下手了
[LAUGHS] She was in better condition that day.
[笑]那天她的状况好多了。
I said, I am going to start in on you because of this stupid ring.
我说，因为这枚愚蠢的戒指，我要开始对付你了。
Lissa told her, damn, Carla, if you're going to steal, at least steal something nice.
丽莎告诉她，该死，卡拉，如果你要偷，至少要偷一些好东西。
Still, when Carla needed help, she often called Lissa.
尽管如此，当卡拉需要帮助时，她经常打电话给丽莎。
And Lissa tried to help her as best she could because of Carla's dad, Chucky.
由于卡拉的父亲查基，丽莎尽力帮助她。
He's a big part of why it's taken Lissa so long to talk about Carla and why it still hurts so much.
他是莉莎花了这么长时间才谈论卡拉的一个重要原因，也是为什么她仍然如此痛苦的原因。
Let me just tell you what happened.
让我告诉你发生了什么事。
A few years before Carla went missing, Chucky moved in with his mom, Lissa's grandma.
卡拉失踪前几年，查基搬去和他的妈妈、丽莎的奶奶住在一起。
Lissa would visit him a lot, spend hours in his bedroom.
丽莎会经常拜访他，在他的卧室里呆上几个小时。
They'd flip through books together and talk about them.
他们会一起翻书并讨论它们。
Chucky didn't have as many graduate degrees as others in his family, but everyone said he was the smartest Yellow Bird.
查基没有家里其他人那么多的研究生学位，但每个人都说他是最聪明的黄鸟。
It made Lissa feel good to keep up with him.
跟上他的步伐让丽莎感觉很好。
She liked proving to herself and to Chucky that she hadn't totally fried her brain with drugs.
她喜欢向自己和查基证明她并没有被毒品完全烧毁。
They spent lots of time debating this massive book he kept by his bed, The Code of Federal Regulations, Title 25.
他们花了很多时间讨论他放在床边的这本大书，《联邦法规》，第 25 篇。
It spells out how the US government is supposed to fulfill its obligations to tribes in exchange for taking their land, how it's supposed to always act in their best interest, for their well-being, obligations the government has ignored in all kinds of ways both Lissa and Chucky witnessed themselves.
它阐明了美国政府应该如何履行对部落的义务，以换取他们的土地，应该如何始终以他们的最大利益和福祉为出发点，而政府却以各种方式忽视了这些义务，丽莎和查基都亲眼目睹了这一点。
Chucky was four years old during a major event in their tribe.
恰基四岁那年，他们的部落正在举办一场重大活动。
The US government built a dam, flooded out most of the reservation, forced everyone, including the Yellow Birds, to relocate.
美国政府修建了一座大坝，淹没了大部分保留地，迫使包括黄鸟在内的所有人搬迁。
They were farmers, self-sufficient, but the land the government moved them to was unfarmable.
他们是农民，自给自足，但政府把他们搬到的土地无法耕种。
There was huge unemployment.
失业率很高。
A lot of people left the reservation for cities.
很多人离开了保留地前往城市。
Chucky and most of his generation were sent away to boarding schools where a lot of them were abused.
查基和他这一代的大多数人都被送往寄宿学校，其中很多人都受到虐待。
In his room, Chucky also had stacks of articles about an emerging science called epigenetics that's shown how traumatic stress can change the way a person's genes behave and how those changes can affect your kids' genes, make it likelier that they develop illnesses, like depression or PTSD.
在查基的房间里，还有成堆关于表观遗传学这一新兴科学的文章，这些文章展示了创伤性压力如何改变一个人的基因行为方式，以及这些变化如何影响你孩子的基因，使他们更有可能患上抑郁症或创伤后应激障碍 (PTSD) 等疾病。
Chucky put into words a pattern Lissa had observed her whole life, that she and the people she would later help had been delivered into a system where they had no chance, a system that kept taking from them, until they died.
查基用语言表达了莉莎一生观察到的模式，即她和她后来帮助的人被送入一个他们没有机会的系统，一个不断从他们身上夺走的系统，直到他们死去。
And their bodies are dragged behind bushes or left to drift at the bottoms of rivers and lakes.
他们的尸体被拖到灌木丛后面或漂流在河流和湖泊的底部。
And few people bother to look for them, to fish them out.
很少有人费心去寻找它们、把它们捞出来。
Chucky himself wasn't doing so well.
Chucky自己的表现也不太好。
He was an alcoholic.
他是个酒鬼。
He was in his early 60s, and he had cirrhosis.
他六十岁出头，患有肝硬化。
One night when Chucky was drinking, he got violent, and his mom kicked him out of the house.
一天晚上，查基喝酒时变得暴力，他妈妈把他赶出了家门。
Lissa called him and told him to come to Fargo where she was living.
丽莎打电话给他，让他到她住的法戈来。
She didn't think he'd come.
她没想到他会来。
But then he called her one night from a Fargo hotel.
但有一天晚上，他从法戈的一家酒店给她打电话。
He wouldn't tell her which one.
他不会告诉她是哪一个。
He was like, I've been drinking.
他说，我喝酒了。
And I know you're in sobriety, I know you're doing well, so I don't want to bring that to your house.
我知道你很清醒，我知道你过得很好，所以我不想把它带到你家。
And I was like, well, that don't make no sense, because I told you if you want to die by the bottle that's fine with me, but I just want to be near you.
我当时想，好吧，这没有任何意义，因为我告诉过你，如果你想死在瓶子里，那对我来说没问题，但我只是想靠近你。
I don't want you out on the streets somewhere freezing to death, or any weird stuff going on.
我不想让你在街上冻死，或者发生任何奇怪的事情。
So if you could just get your butt over here, that would be great.
所以如果你能把屁股放在这里，那就太好了。
And he's like, no, I got a room.
他说，不，我有一个房间。
I'll be good for tonight.
今晚我会好好表现的。
And tomorrow, I'll come over.
明天我会过来。
Later that night, Chucky called Lissa again.
那天晚上晚些时候，恰基再次给丽莎打电话。
He said he was going to kill himself.
他说他要自杀。
Lissa stayed on the phone with him all night, for seven hours.
莉莎整晚都在和他通电话，整整七个小时。
She kept him on one line.
她让他保持在一条线上。
On the other line-- she took her son's phone-- dialed the police.
在另一条线路上——她拿着儿子的电话——拨通了警察的电话。
She called every hotel in the city looking for him.
她给城里的每家旅馆打电话寻找他。
Before Lissa could find him, Chucky hung himself.
在丽莎找到他之前，查基上吊自杀了。
That was the night he asked Lissa to watch out for Carla.
那天晚上，他让丽莎照顾卡拉。
In the three days Lissa was getting all these calls from Suna, she was also trying over and over to reach the one investigator who has the authority to look into crimes on the Spirit Lake Indian Reservation, an investigator with the Bureau of Indian Affairs.
在丽莎接到苏娜打来的所有电话的三天里，她还一次又一次地试图联系一位有权调查灵湖印第安人保留地犯罪行为的调查员，即印第安人事务局的一名调查员。
Lissa left a ton of messages for him, even asked a tribal councilman to call on her behalf.
丽莎给他留下了大量信息，甚至请一位部落议员代表她打电话。
And finally, after days of this, the investigator returned her calls.
最后，几天后，调查员回复了她的电话。
Hello?
你好？
Investigator Hello.
调查员您好。
Is this Lisa?
这是丽莎吗？
Lissa, yep.
丽莎，是的。
Investigator Yeah.
调查员 是啊。
This is the officer from Fort Totton.
这是托顿堡的军官。
Yep.
是的。
Lissa Yellow Bird I'd like to get an update on what's going on.
Lissa Yellow Bird 我想了解最新情况。
He tells Lissa, we know about Suna.
他告诉丽莎，我们知道苏娜的事。
We're looking for him, but we can't find him anywhere.
我们正在寻找他，但到处都找不到他。
OK.
好的。
Well, he was driving around all weekend, because I have pictures of him.
嗯，他整个周末都在开车，因为我有他的照片。
Oh, OK.
哦，好吧。
Lissa Yellow Bird You know Suna's called me like three or four times, right?
丽莎黄鸟 你知道苏娜给我打过三四次电话吧？
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
From what number?
从什么号码开始？
Lissa Yellow Bird He blocks it.
丽莎黄鸟 他挡住了它。
Oh, hmm.
哦，嗯。
Yep.
是的。
Lissa Yellow Bird Because I already pretty much know who the culprit is.
丽莎黄鸟 因为我已经基本知道罪魁祸首是谁了。
Hmm.
唔。
Lissa Yellow Bird And did you know--
丽莎黄鸟你知道吗——
Lissa gives him all the information she has-- who she's talked to, who knows what, where to find them.
丽莎向他提供了她拥有的所有信息——她和谁交谈过，谁知道什么，在哪里可以找到他们。
She seems way ahead of the investigator.
她似乎远远领先于调查员。
This is typical.
这是典型的。
I've seen Lissa work on dozens of cases.
我见过丽莎处理过几十个案件。
The investigator tells Lissa, don't worry.
调查员告诉丽莎，别担心。
We got it covered.
我们把它覆盖了。
Then a few hours later--
然后几个小时后——
Hello, Lissa?
你好，丽莎？
Lissa Yellow Bird Who's this?
丽莎黄鸟这是谁？
It's Suna.
是苏娜。
I have no idea why he keeps calling.
我不知道他为什么一直打电话。
I don't even know.
我什至不知道。
I'm not even-- I don't even know that.
我什至不知道。
Suna, quit fucking around, man.
苏娜，别再胡闹了，伙计。
If you just come clean, you tell me where my niece's body is at, I will work with you.
如果你坦白说出来，告诉我我侄女的尸体在哪里，我会和你一起工作。
Because you know what?
因为你知道什么？
I know you're a dumb fucker.
我知道你是个蠢货。
I know that.
我知道。
And you're probably a career criminal, and that's too bad.
而你可能是一名职业罪犯，这太糟糕了。
No, because my parents, they raised me right.
不，因为我的父母，他们养育了我。
And you know what?
你知道吗？
I can have pity on you.
我可以怜悯你。
I can have pity on you, but I want my niece's body.
我可以怜悯你，但我想要我侄女的身体。
Hey, I know that you want to hear something that I don't even know.
嘿，我知道你想听一些我不知道的事情。
It's just hard to hold my tongue, because I know there's more to it, because I've been doing my research.
只是很难管住自己的舌头，因为我知道还有更多的事情要做，因为我一直在做我的研究。
Yeah.
是的。
Lissa Yellow Bird It sounds to me like you have a behavior pattern of sexual aggravated assaults.
丽莎黄鸟 在我看来，你有严重性侵犯的行为模式。
No. Sierra Crane Murdoch Actually, yes.
不。塞拉·克兰·默多克 事实上，是的。
Suna raped his child's babysitter and spent 10 years in prison for it.
苏纳强奸了孩子的保姆，并因此入狱 10 年。
He was 21 at the time.
当时他21岁。
She was 14.
她14岁。
One of Lissa's many jobs over the years was as a counselor to sex offenders in a prison.
多年来，丽莎的众多工作之一就是为监狱中的性犯罪者担任辅导员。
I know your kind of people.
我了解你们这类人。
And you know what?
你知道吗？
You lie to yourself, till you convince yourself that it's actually true.
你对自己撒谎，直到你说服自己这确实是真的。
But you know what I think?
但你知道我怎么想吗？
I think you haven't ever gone this far before.
我想你以前从未走得这么远。
But good god, you sure have motive.
但天哪，你肯定有动机。
Because you know what?
因为你知道什么？
After spending, what?
消费完之后呢？
A 10-year stint?
任期10年？
Is that what you did in the big house?
你在大房子里就是这么做的吗？
Yep.
是的。
Lissa Yellow Bird Nobody wants to do that shit again, not at your age.
丽莎·黄鸟 没有人愿意再做那种事了，尤其是在你这个年纪。
And you never really learned anything from that, because they don't give you the proper treatment.
你从来没有真正从中学到任何东西，因为他们没有给你适当的治疗。
They stick you like a little rat in a cage, and they let you sit.
他们把你像笼子里的小老鼠一样困住，然后让你坐下。
And they let you sit, and they let you rot.
他们让你坐着，让你腐烂。
And your mind goes mushy.
你的头脑变得糊涂了。
This is the fourth time Suna has called Lissa in three days.
这是三天内苏娜第四次给丽莎打电话。
It's the middle of the night.
现在是半夜。
She hasn't slept.
她还没睡。
She's chain smoking cigarettes, downing cup after cup of coffee.
她不停地抽烟，喝着一杯又一杯咖啡。
Suna starts telling Lissa he's worried.
苏娜开始告诉丽莎他很担心。
There are some guys he doesn't recognize driving by his house, stalking him.
有一些他不认识的人开车经过他家，跟踪他。
He says they have Texas license plates.
他说他们有德克萨斯州的车牌。
Well, give me the license plate number.
好吧，给我车牌号。
I'll look it up for you.
我帮你查一下。
Do you understand what I'm saying?
你明白我在说什么吗？
These guys want to try to shoot at me.
这些家伙想向我开枪。
I can't come and go looking for these guys and just to get a license plate, even though that'd be good information, you know what I mean?
我不能来来去去寻找这些人只是为了拿到车牌，即使那是很好的信息，你知道我的意思吗？
[LAUGHS] Suna Guy I'm not going to go sneaking up to some people that want to shoot at me, especially--
[笑]苏娜·盖伊，我不会偷偷靠近一些想朝我开枪的人，尤其是——
[LAUGHING] I got you.
[笑]我找到你了。
I got you.
我接到你了。
Jeez.
天啊。
I get you.
我明白你了。
I got your concern.
我得到了你的关心。
That was dumb.
那太愚蠢了。
I mean, I don't know.
我的意思是，我不知道。
Lissa Yellow Bird [LAUGHING]
丽莎黄鸟[笑]
I got them calling-- Lissa Yellow Bird I'm sorry.
我接到他们的电话——丽莎黄鸟，对不起。
I'm sorry.
对不起。
I called for town PD to even tell them about this, and they ain't even concerned about it, you know what I mean?
我打电话给镇警察局告诉他们这件事，但他们根本不关心，你知道我的意思吗？
[LAUGHS] I'm sorry.
[笑]我很抱歉。
I'm sorry.
对不起。
I didn't-- [LAUGHING] I didn't realize what I just said.
我没有——[笑]我没有意识到我刚才说了什么。
Yeah?
是的？
Lissa Yellow Bird [LAUGHING] [COUGHS]
丽莎黄鸟[笑][咳嗽]
Lissa laughs like this for a really long time.
莉莎就这样笑了好久。
Because if I got the license plate number, I would give the PD their license plate number over here too, you know what I mean?
因为如果我得到了车牌号码，我也会在这里给警察他们的车牌号码，你知道我的意思吗？
I do.
我愿意。
I do.
我愿意。
I was out of line.
我不合规矩了。
I'm sorry.
对不起。
[LAUGHS] God.
[笑]上帝。
[LAUGHING]
[笑]
Huh.
呵呵。
Sierra Crane Murdoch Suna seems totally thrown by this.
塞拉·克兰·默多克·苏娜似乎完全被这件事搞糊涂了。
He tries to laugh too, except it's clear he doesn't understand what's funny.
他也想笑，但很明显他不明白什么是好笑的。
But in Lissa's mind, this was hilarious.
但在莉莎看来，这实在是太搞笑了。
The guy she thought murdered her niece, he was calling her for help because he didn't want to get murdered.
她认为谋杀了她侄女的那个人，他打电话给她求助，因为他不想被谋杀。
And then she basically tells him, go get murdered.
然后她基本上告诉他，去被谋杀吧。
But you know what, though?
但你知道吗？
I'm sorry, but I understand.
对不起，但我明白。
I mean, I'm not taking offense or nothing, but I'm glad that you're able to make a laugh out of it, you know what I mean?
我的意思是，我没有冒犯什么的意思，但我很高兴你能从中发笑，你明白我的意思吗？
It's glad to see that you still can laugh, even though-- having a sense of humor, even though this is a serious matter, you know what I mean?
很高兴看到你还能笑，尽管——有幽默感，尽管这是一件严肃的事情，你知道我的意思吗？
Yeah, I know that.
是的，我知道。
Suna Guy And all that.
苏娜盖伊等等。
I was out of line.
我不合规矩了。
I'm sorry.
对不起。
[LAUGHING] Go get the plate number.
[笑]去拿车牌号。
Oh, shit.
妈的。
Oh, I must be getting tired.
哦，我一定是累了。
I'm sorry.
对不起。
Later, Lissa told me she was exhausted.
后来，丽莎告诉我她已经筋疲力尽了。
She hadn't slept in days, and she was getting desperate.
她已经好几天没有睡过觉了，心里越来越难受。
It had been three days since she posted Suna's name on Facebook.
距离她在脸书上发布苏娜的名字已经过去三天了。
She just lost it.
她只是失去了它。
When Suna called the next afternoon, he sounded different.
第二天下午，当苏娜打电话来时，他的语气有所不同。
Sierra Crane Murdoch.
塞拉·克兰·默多克。
Coming up, Suna's new tactic.
苏娜的新战术即将登场。
That's in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.
稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program, "A Mess To Be Reckoned With." Sierra Crane Murdoch is telling the story of Lissa Yellow Bird, as Lissa investigates the disappearance of her niece in 2016.
今天的节目是“不可忽视的混乱”。塞拉·克莱恩·默多克 (Sierra Crane Murdoch) 讲述了丽莎·黄鸟 (Lissa Yellow Bird) 的故事，丽莎正在调查 2016 年她侄女的失踪事件。
And we pick up where we left off in Lissa's investigation.
我们接着继续调查莉萨的调查。
Here's Sierra.
这里是塞拉。
On day four, Suna calls Lissa again, and something's changed.
第四天，苏娜再次给丽莎打电话，事情发生了变化。
Can you be at Spirit Lake tomorrow morning or tomorrow afternoon?
你明天早上或明天下午可以去灵湖吗？
Huh?
啊？
Suna Guy Can you come to Spirit Lake tomorrow afternoon?
苏娜盖伊 明天下午你能来灵湖吗？
Why?
为什么？
Suna Guy I'm gonna come forward with everything clear with you.
苏娜·盖伊 我会挺身而出，把一切都和你说清楚。
Oh, yeah?
哦，是吗？
Suna Guy Yep.
苏娜·盖伊 是的。
You're too good of a lady, and I'm not going to lie to you, not going to continue.
你真是一位太好的女士了，我不会对你撒谎，也不会继续下去。
And I'm not going to hold a lie from you.
我不会对你撒谎。
So do you know something?
那你知道吗？
Suna Guy I already talked to a Detective Jose.
苏娜·盖伊 我已经和何塞侦探谈过了。
I told her to come over here tomorrow afternoon.
我告诉她明天下午到这里来。
I told her I was going to contact you and ask you to be up here also.
我告诉她我会联系你并请你也到这里来。
OK.
好的。
Suna Guy Because I wanted to talk to all you guys at the same time, as well as my family and all that.
Suna Guy 因为我想同时和你们所有人交谈，还有我的家人等等。
Are you involved?
你参与其中吗？
Suna Guy No, I wasn't.
苏娜·盖伊 不，我不是。
But you know where she's at?
但你知道她在哪儿吗？
Suna Guy I was there.
苏娜·盖伊我当时也在场。
I was there, but I didn't know that was going to happen.
我当时就在场，但我不知道会发生这样的事。
It should never happened.
它不应该发生。
And I know where the body's at.
我知道尸体在哪里。
I know who the individual that did it.
我知道是谁干的。
You better tell them everything you know, otherwise you're going to get the blame.
你最好把你知道的一切都告诉他们，否则你会受到指责。
You know that.
你知道的。
That's why I want you there.
这就是为什么我希望你在那里。
And I wanted to approach you with these cops around and letting them know that you're the main one I want to talk to.
我想和周围的警察一起接近你，让他们知道你是我想交谈的主要对象。
And after I talk with you guys and give you guys my statement about everything, then we're going to go.
在我与你们交谈并向你们提供我对所有事情的陈述之后，我们就出发了。
I'm going to take you guys to the body.
我要带你们去尸体那儿。
You know what?
你知道吗？
I'm sorry.
对不起。
And you know what?
你知道吗？
I cried my head off earlier.
我早些时候哭得头晕目眩。
And you know what?
你知道吗？
I just remember and think about your laughing and your sense of humor last night.
我只记得并想起你昨晚的笑声和幽默感。
And that's the reason why I-- I mean, I'm doing this.
这就是我——我的意思是，我这样做的原因。
Suna, you know this is like another chance for you to turn it all around, right?
苏娜，你知道这对你来说是另一个扭转局面的机会，对吧？
I do.
我愿意。
But all I'm asking for is protection once I step forward, as well as my family.
但我所要求的只是当我迈出一步时得到保护，以及我的家人。
If this sounds at all manipulative to you, it did to me too, like he's flattering her, saying Lissa finally convinced him to do the right thing.
如果这对你来说听起来有点操纵性，那么对我来说也是如此，就像他在奉承她一样，说丽莎终于说服了他做了正确的事。
And then he asks, so what can you do for me after I've done this thing for you?
然后他问，那么我为你做了这件事之后，你能为我做些什么呢？
But Lissa goes along with it.
但丽莎同意了。
Well, the only thing I can guarantee you is that my family will not retaliate against your family.
好吧，我唯一可以向你保证的是，我的家人不会报复你的家人。
Mm-hm.
嗯嗯。
Lissa Yellow Bird I don't hold any ill will to your parents.
丽莎黄鸟 我对你的父母没有任何恶意。
I don't even hold any ill will to you.
我什至对你没有任何恶意。
I know you've lied to me already.
我知道你已经对我撒谎了。
I knew you're getting high.
我就知道你越来越嗨了
And I know people don't make the best decisions when they're high.
我知道人们在兴奋时不会做出最好的决定。
This is your time to turn it all around, you know what I mean?
现在是你扭转局面的时候了，你明白我的意思吗？
I do.
我愿意。
Lissa Yellow Bird Whether it's making bad decisions, whether it's sexual impulses or not, whatever, whatever it is that gets you into these predicaments.
丽莎黄鸟 无论是做出了错误的决定，无论是不是性冲动，无论什么，无论是什么让你陷入这些困境。
How old are you?
你今年多大？
I'm going to be 38 years old next month.
下个月我就38岁了。
38.
38.
You got plenty of time to turn that shit around.
你有足够的时间来扭转局面。
Mm-hm.
嗯嗯。
Sierra Crane Murdoch Suna says he's not ready to tell her what happened, but Lissa's worried he'll have a change of heart overnight, back out.
塞拉·克莱恩·默多克·苏纳说他还没有准备好告诉她发生了什么事，但丽莎担心他会在一夜之间改变主意，退出。
Plus, Suna says people are after him.
另外，苏纳说有人在追捕他。
It was possible he'd get killed before he confessed the next day, and then they'd never find Carla's body.
他有可能在第二天认罪之前就被杀了，然后他们就再也找不到卡拉的尸体了。
So Lissa keeps pressing him.
所以莉莎一直向他施压。
She throws out a name, Dakota Charbonneau.
她抛出了一个名字：Dakota Charbonneau。
People have told her Suna often hung around Dakota.
人们告诉她苏娜经常在达科他州附近闲逛。
He was notorious in Spirit Lake, with a record of violent crime.
他在灵湖中臭名昭著，有暴力犯罪前科。
Lissa thought maybe he's the one who actually murdered Carla.
丽莎认为也许他就是真正谋杀卡拉的人。
Charbonneau?
夏博诺？
Suna Guy I'll give the names tomorrow.
苏娜·盖伊（Suna Guy） 我明天会给出名字。
Not going to give me a name?
不打算给我名字吗？
Fine, Lissa thinks.
好吧，丽莎想。
She keeps pressing him.
她不断地逼迫他。
Why did he do it, though?
但他为什么这么做呢？
What possessed him to do that?
是什么促使他这么做？
These guys just figured that she had dope and she had money.
这些人只是认为她有毒品而且有钱。
How much dope did she have?
她到底吸了多少毒品？
I don't know.
我不知道。
How much money she had?
她有多少钱？
I don't know.
我不知道。
I wasn't sure.
我不确定。
I never seen nothing.
我什么也没看见。
I mean, I'm like, what the fuck, man?
我的意思是，我想，他妈的怎么了，伙计？
I mean, it shocked the shit out of me.
我的意思是，这让我震惊不已。
I mean, they did it behind my back.
我的意思是，他们在我背后这么做了。
And when I heard the gunshot, and it just happened to be her.
当我听到枪声时，恰好是她。
Well, did she make any noises?
嗯，她有发出什么声音吗？
Or did she cry, or anything?
还是她哭了，或者怎么了？
The rest of this phone call is really hard to listen to.
这个电话的其余部分真的很难听。
For the first time in four days, you hear Lissa's voice crack, but she keeps going, asks question after question.
四天来第一次，你听到丽莎的声音嘶哑，但她继续问下去，问了一个又一个问题。
She gets Suna to tell her almost everything.
她让苏娜告诉她几乎所有事情。
He says one of the other guys shot her, took her drugs.
他说，其中一名男子开枪射杀了她，并抢走了她的毒品。
Then he says he got away from the guys as fast as he could.
然后他说他尽快逃离了这些人。
Lissa asks him, did you go back and check on Carla, see if she was alive?
丽莎问他，你回去查看卡拉是否还活着吗？
Suna says, no.
苏娜说，不。
When he told you that, how did you feel?
当他告诉你这件事时，你感觉如何？
I wanted to know every detail.
我想知道每一个细节。
So I wanted to know, did she suffer?
所以我想知道，她受苦了吗？
What if she suffered?
如果她受苦了怎么办？
I made a promise to Chucky that I would look out for her.
我向查基保证我会照顾她。
And so, I guess it was important to me to know how badly I failed at that.
因此，我想了解我在这方面的失败程度对我来说很重要。
And if she was out there suffering for days, then it would have made it tougher.
如果她在外面受苦好几天，那就更难受了。
But I wanted to believe that she went fast and that she didn't know.
但我想相信她走得很快，而且她不知道。
It's kind of hard to know that.
很难知道这一点。
Even that, as ugly as it can be, it would offer a little bit of comfort.
即使如此，尽管它可能很丑陋，但它还是会提供一点安慰。
I needed to hear that.
我需要听听这个。
Lissa stayed on the phone with Suna for a lot of that night.
那天晚上，丽莎花了很多时间和苏娜通电话。
And it's during this call that she softens toward him, like her anger has totally drained out of her.
正是在这次通话中，她对他的态度软化了，就像她的愤怒完全消失了一样。
Later, Lissa would tell me she was afraid Suna was going to hurt himself or do something stupid to get himself hurt.
后来，丽莎告诉我，她担心苏娜会伤害自己，或者做一些愚蠢的事情来伤害自己。
She needed him to make it to the next day.
她需要他撑到第二天。
Could I ask you a question?
我可以问你一个问题吗？
Lissa Yellow Bird Shoot it.
丽莎黄鸟 射击它。
What are you going to ask of me?
你要问我什么？
What are you going to ask be done to me?
你要对我做什么？
What am I going ask, like punishment-wise, or what?
我要问什么，比如惩罚，或者什么？
Yeah.
是的。
Lissa Yellow Bird I mean, for you, I think you have somewhat of a conscience left, you know what I mean?
丽莎黄鸟 我的意思是，对于你来说，我认为你还有一点良心，你明白我的意思吗？
I think you should, you know, maybe even get some kind of immunity for turning state's evidence against the other two.
我认为，你知道，你甚至应该获得某种豁免权，以利用国家证据来对抗另外两个人。
What's that?
那是什么？
Immunity?
免疫？
Lissa Yellow Bird Immunity is when they-- [SIGHS] Immunity-- OK, do you know what a proffer agreement is?
丽莎黄鸟免疫是指他们——[叹息]免疫——好吧，你知道什么是提供协议吗？
I mean, not really, but-- Lissa Yellow Bird Well, don't just agree with me, tell me, do you know what a proffer agreement is?
我的意思是，不是真的，但是—— Lissa Yellow Bird 好吧，别只是同意我的观点，告诉我，你知道什么是报价协议吗？
No, I don't.
不，我不。
Lissa Yellow Bird A proffer agreement is when you go in--
丽莎黄鸟 一份要约协议是当你进去时——
She starts explaining his options in a system that she knows, and he doesn't.
她开始在她知道的系统中解释他的选择，而他不知道。
P-R-O-F-F-E-R-- you can look that shit up on the internet.
P-R-O-F-F-E-R——你可以在互联网上查一下。
Mm-hm.
嗯嗯。
Lissa Yellow Bird You can ask for a proffer.
丽莎黄鸟 你可以要求提供者。
And if I were you, I would.
如果我是你，我会的。
Couldn't you, when we're sitting there talking to them, I mean, mention that also?
我是说，当我们坐在那里与他们交谈时，你难道不能也提到这一点吗？
I could.
我可以。
Suna Guy You know what?
苏娜盖伊你知道吗？
The only thing I ask is that-- it's my little boy's birthday Saturday.
我唯一要问的是——周六是我小男孩的生日。
I'd love to be there.
我很乐意去那里。
My little boy's going to be three years old.
我的小儿子马上就三岁了。
I won't.
我不会。
Lissa Yellow Bird Everything that comes out of your mouth needs to be the truth.
丽莎黄鸟 从你嘴里说出来的一切都必须是事实。
Because if they find out later that it wasn't, it nullifies the agreement.
因为如果他们后来发现事实并非如此，协议就会失效。
I understand.
我明白。
What I'm saying is that I'd like to spend my little boy's birthday with him, you know what I mean?
我的意思是我想和我的小男孩一起过生日，你明白我的意思吗？
If you do everything you say you're going to do, I will fight for you to be there, with my heart and soul.
如果你做了你所说的一切，我会全心全意地为你而奋斗。
I give you my word.
我向你保证。
Lissa Yellow Bird And keeping in mind you've given me your word before.
丽莎黄鸟 请记住你之前已经向我保证过。
This is my word where I'm stepping forward and giving only but honesty, honesty that your family deserves, Carla deserves.
这是我的话，我将向前迈出一步，只给予诚实，诚实，这是你的家人应得的，卡拉应得的。
If you do that, I will-- Suna Guy I don't want my kid growing up without me.
如果你这样做，我会-- Suna Guy 我不希望我的孩子在没有我的情况下长大。
If you'll keep your word, I will keep mine.
如果你遵守诺言，我也会遵守诺言。
And I will tomorrow.
明天我会的。
Sierra Crane Murdoch Lissa left for Spirit Lake the next morning at 7:00.
第二天早上 7:00 Sierra Crane Murdoch Lissa 出发前往 Spirit Lake。
It was a two-hour drive, and she called me.
开了两个小时的车，她给我打了电话。
We talked the whole time.
我们一直在说话。
She told me she felt like all her searching for missing people had prepared her for this moment.
她告诉我，她觉得搜寻失踪人员的所有努力都让她为这一刻做好了准备。
When she got to the reservation, FBI agents were already there.
当她到达预订处时，联邦调查局特工已经在那里了。
Suna had brought them to Carla's body.
苏娜把它们带到了卡拉的尸体旁。
The crime scene was taped off.
犯罪现场已被封锁。
It was in a wooded area, the ground marked with old tire tracks.
那是在一片树林里，地面上有旧轮胎的痕迹。
Carla lay no more than 50 yards from the road.
卡拉躺在距离公路不到 50 码的地方。
People had been driving right past her for weeks.
几个星期以来，人们一直开车从她身边经过。
The agents didn't let Lissa get close to Carla.
特工们不让丽莎接近卡拉。
Instead, they brought her pictures to make the identification.
相反，他们带了她的照片来进行身份识别。
Carla was in bad shape.
卡拉的身体状况很糟糕。
Lissa barely recognized her.
莉莎差点没认出她来。
And then Lissa saw the ring, the big, gaudy ring she had gotten after Carla for.
然后丽莎看到了戒指，那枚她追随卡拉而得到的又大又俗气的戒指。
The whole thing was just senseless.
整件事毫无意义。
I remember telling Suna, why didn't you guys just call us?
我记得告诉苏娜，你们为什么不给我们打电话？
We would have gave you the money just to let her go.
我们会给你钱只是为了让她走。
[EMOTIONAL] She might have been a little shit, but she was important to us, you know?
[情感]她可能有点糟糕，但她对我们很重要，你知道吗？
And I remember standing there for a minute, thinking like, what the fuck am I doing way out here by myself?
我记得在那里站了一分钟，心想，我一个人跑到这里来干什么？
Lissa had never minded searching for missing people on her own before, but now, suddenly, she felt very alone.
莉莎以前从来不介意独自寻找失踪的人，但现在，她突然感到非常孤独。
She drove down the road to where Suna was waiting for her with several investigators and his family.
她沿着路开到苏纳和几名调查员及其家人正在等她的地方。
His mom thanked Lissa.
他的妈妈感谢丽莎。
They huddled together as Suna made his confession.
当苏纳坦白时，他们挤在一起。
Lissa was watching Suna, his rapid speech.
丽莎看着苏纳，他语速很快。
She thought he seemed traumatized.
她认为他似乎受到了创伤。
She also thought he was telling the truth.
她也认为他说的是实话。
And when he was done, he came up to Lissa.
当他完成后，他走到丽莎面前。
He said, I hate to sound so selfish, but I really want to know.
他说，我讨厌听起来这么自私，但我真的很想知道。
Am I going to go to jail today?
我今天要进监狱吗？
And I don't know.
我不知道。
It seemed like that question kind of made the agents mad.
这个问题似乎让特工们抓狂了。
They kind of came over and started talking to me.
他们过来开始和我说话。
And they were like, well, Lissa, what do you want?
他们就像，好吧，丽莎，你想要什么？
And I said, well, if he's the one that's helping me bring my niece home, then I would like to see him stay-- stay out.
我说，好吧，如果他是帮助我带我侄女回家的人，那么我希望看到他留下来——留在外面。
That's what the agents did.
经纪人就是这么做的。
As Lissa was leaving the reservation, she stopped at Devil's Lake, this vast body of water that blends in with the flatness of the prairie around it.
当丽莎离开保留地时，她在魔鬼湖停了下来，这片广阔的水域与周围平坦的草原融为一体。
She got out of the car, walked to the edge.
她下了车，走到了边缘。
And I just looked out there 'cause it's pretty there.
我只是往外看，因为那里很漂亮。
I like that territory.
我喜欢那片领土。
There's a lot of spirituality there too.
那里也有很多灵性。
And I just couldn't feel anything.
我就是感觉不到任何东西。
I kept thinking.
我一直在想。
While I was by that water, I thought, just one feeling, just do one feeling.
当我在那水边时，我想，只是一种感觉，就做一种感觉。
If you could feel one thing, even if it's hate, or anger, or something, Lissa, just come up with one feeling, because I think there's something wrong with you.
如果你能感觉到一件事，即使是仇恨、愤怒或其他什么，丽莎，就想出一种感觉，因为我认为你有问题。
[EMOTIONAL] And the only feeling I could feel was gratefulness, gratefulness to Suna that she didn't have to spend another day out there alone.
[情感] 我唯一能感受到的就是感激，感激苏娜，因为她不必再独自一人在外面度过一天。
So I put a cigarette down for Carla, and I smoked one, and I left.
于是我为卡拉放下一支烟，抽了一根，然后就离开了。
Another reason Lissa still hardly tells anyone about this case, a reason why it's still so hard for her has to do with what came afterward.
丽莎仍然很少告诉任何人这件事的另一个原因，对她来说仍然如此困难的一个原因与后来发生的事情有关。
Lissa went to Carla's funeral.
丽莎参加了卡拉的葬礼。
Loretta, Carla's mom, thanked Lissa, honored her with a star quilt.
卡拉的妈妈洛雷塔感谢莉萨，并送给她一床星星被子。
But then what happened was a kind of unraveling.
但随后发生的事情却是一种瓦解。
Prosecutors began building their case against Suna and the two other guys responsible for Carla's murder.
检察官开始对苏娜和另外两名对卡拉谋杀案负有责任的人立案。
And Lissa became the main point of contact for Carla's family.
丽莎成为卡拉家人的主要联系人。
She started going to all the legal meetings, helping Carla's mom understand what was going on.
她开始参加所有的法律会议，帮助卡拉的妈妈了解发生了什么。
And at the same time, Lissa was still talking to Suna, constantly.
与此同时，莉莎还在和苏娜不断地说话。
OK.
好的。
Suna Guy And if you want to chit-chat throughout the night, I don't mind.
Suna Guy：如果你想整夜闲聊，我不介意。
I mean, I'm just as well tired too, though, because I stayed up most of the night last night thinking that these guys were going to come through.
我的意思是，不过，我也很累，因为昨晚我整晚都没睡，以为这些人会成功。
Yeah.
是的。
I haven't been sleeping well either.
我也睡得不好。
I mean, I don't know.
我的意思是，我不知道。
I mean, I'm going to try to sleep some or whatever I can tonight and all that, but--
我的意思是，今晚我会试着睡一会儿，或者睡什么，等等，但是——
Yeah.
是的。
I probably will.
我可能会的。
If I head out tonight, I'll probably call you just for--
如果我今晚出去，我可能会给你打电话只是为了——
Just to keep being known that I'm still here, you know what I mean?
只是为了让人们知道我还在这里，你明白我的意思吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Sierra Crane Murdoch At first, Lissa had a pragmatic reason to keep talking to Suna.
Sierra Crane Murdoch 起初，Lissa 有一个务实的理由继续与 Suna 交谈。
She needed him to follow through, to testify in Carla's case against the two other guys involved.
她需要他坚持到底，在卡拉的案件中对另外两个涉案人员作证。
Lissa worried for Suna's safety.
丽莎担心苏娜的安全。
He wanted witness protection, so she started calling around on his behalf.
他想要证人保护，所以她开始代表他四处打电话。
When the prosecutor found out about this, that Lissa was advocating for Suna, she made Carla's mom, Loretta, the spokesperson for the family and stopped inviting Lissa to meetings, basically iced Lissa out.
当检察官发现莉莎为苏娜辩护时，她让卡拉的妈妈洛雷塔担任家庭发言人，并不再邀请莉莎参加会议，基本上冷落了莉莎。
The court stopped notifying Lissa about hearings in Carla's case.
法院停止通知丽莎有关卡拉案件的听证会。
Court officials told her, we only do that for the victim's immediate family.
法院官员告诉她，我们只为受害者的直系亲属这样做。
Suna pled guilty to felony murder, meaning he committed a crime that led to Carla's death, even if he didn't intend to murder her.
苏纳承认犯有重罪谋杀罪，这意味着他犯下了导致卡拉死亡的罪行，即使他无意谋杀她。
Prosecutors said that Suna didn't plan to murder Carla.
检察官表示，苏娜无意谋杀卡拉。
He didn't have the gun.
他没有枪。
He didn't pull the trigger.
他没有扣动扳机。
What Suna planned to do, prosecutors argued, was to rob Carla of drugs.
检察官辩称，苏娜的计划是抢夺卡拉的毒品。
The other two men involved in Carla's murder, they pled out after Suna informed on them.
另外两名参与卡拉谋杀案的男子在苏娜举报后认罪。
They got 50 and 28-year sentences for a list of charges that included use of a firearm, conspiracy to commit robbery, and second-degree murder.
他们因使用枪支、共谋抢劫和二级谋杀等一系列罪名分别被判处 50 年和 28 年徒刑。
At Suna's sentencing hearing, Lissa sat behind Carla's mother, sister, and a few of Carla's kids.
在苏娜的量刑听证会上，丽莎坐在卡拉的母亲、妹妹和卡拉的几个孩子后面。
Lissa gave a statement, and she actually spoke on Suna's behalf.
莉莎发表了声明，她实际上是代表苏娜发言的。
She had wanted him to get probation on a lesser charge.
她本来希望他以较轻的罪名获得缓刑。
Lissa said, I was the person who brought Carla home, and it wouldn't have happened without Suna.
丽莎说，我是把卡拉带回家的人，如果没有苏娜，这一切就不会发生。
She said, I can tell you, a lot of our people are still laying in fields and behind bushes all over this country, and nobody cares.
她说，我可以告诉你，我们的很多人仍然躺在全国各地的田野里和灌木丛后面，没有人关心。
She told the judge it was so rare for people like Suna to come forward, to tell the truth.
她告诉法官，像苏娜这样的人站出来说出真相是非常罕见的。
She asked him to show compassion to Suna, because she said he showed compassion to us.
她要求他对苏娜表示同情，因为她说他对我们表示同情。
The rest of the hearing, Carla's mother and sister wouldn't even look at Lissa.
在听证会的其余时间里，卡拉的母亲和妹妹甚至没有看丽莎。
Lissa kept tapping Loretta on the shoulder, but Loretta just stared ahead, ignored her.
丽莎不断地拍着洛雷塔的肩膀，但洛雷塔只是盯着前方，没有理睬她。
Loretta was pissed.
洛蕾塔很生气。
Sierra Crane Murdoch How did you know Loretta was pissed?
Sierra Crane Murdoch 你怎么知道洛雷塔生气了？
Because they all got on Facebook like right outside that court room and were like, Lissa Yellow Bird is over here taking the side of the murderer against my daughter.
因为他们都在法庭外的脸书上留言，丽莎·黄鸟就在这里站在凶手一边对付我的女儿。
And then that kind of went out.
然后就这样消失了。
How did you feel when you saw those posts?
当你看到这些帖子时有什么感受？
I was just like, well, there's been a few families, and she's one of them, where just 100% ungratefulness.
我当时想，嗯，有几个家庭，她就是其中之一，100％忘恩负义。
But I delivered.
但我交付了。
Suna didn't kill Carla.
苏娜没有杀死卡拉。
I don't have to explain myself to anybody.
我不需要向任何人解释自己。
They weren't there.
他们不在那儿。
They didn't have to negotiate with anybody to get their loved one back.
他们不需要与任何人谈判就可以找回他们所爱的人。
Loretta wouldn't talk to me for this story.
洛雷塔不会跟我谈论这个故事。
I reached out to her several times.
我多次联系过她。
She didn't respond.
她没有回应。
Suna was sentenced to 15 years, which is actually a pretty lenient sentence for felony murder, but Lissa was furious.
苏娜被判了15年有期徒刑，这对于重罪谋杀来说其实是相当轻的刑罚，但莉萨却勃然大怒。
I've never heard her as angry at anyone as she was at the prosecutor in this case, a woman named Jan Morley.
我从来没有听过她对任何人像对本案检察官扬·莫利那样生气。
Lissa called Jan a slithering snake who was out to get Suna, typical of federal officials who fail tribal communities.
莉萨称简是条蛇，她的目标是抓苏娜，这是典型的令部落社区失望的联邦官员。
So I called Jan, the prosecutor.
于是我给检察官简打了电话。
She's retired now.
她现在已经退休了。
Oh, really?
哦真的吗？
Jan Morley Yes.
简·莫利 是的。
Right.
正确的。
Grew up on the Turtle Mountain Indian Reservation, Belcourt, North Dakota.
在北达科他州贝尔考特的龟山印第安人保留地长大。
It's 10 miles from the Canadian border.
距加拿大边境 10 英里。
Wow.
哇。
I didn't realize that.
我没有意识到这一点。
Lissa didn't realize it either.
丽莎也没有意识到这一点。
I asked her later.
后来我问她。
She sounded surprised.
她听起来很惊讶。
Lissa had told me that in her conversations with Suna, she had begun to see him as a vulnerable adult maybe with a cognitive disability, but Jan didn't see him this way.
丽莎告诉我，在她与苏纳的谈话中，她开始将他视为一个脆弱的成年人，可能患有认知障碍，但简并不这样看他。
Suna is not a victim in this case.
苏娜并不是这起案件的受害者。
Suna came forward because Suna wanted to save Suna's skin.
苏娜挺身而出，是因为苏娜想保住苏娜的脸。
Do you think-- you know, he said he was scared.
你认为——你知道吗，他说他很害怕。
How do you feel about that?
你对此有何感想？
I don't believe it.
我不相信。
I don't think he was scared.
我不认为他害怕。
He didn't leave immediately.
他没有立即离开。
He stayed there.
他留在那里。
They went through her stuff.
他们检查了她的东西。
He wanted to be part of the loot.
他想成为战利品的一部分。
So he spent a lot of time right after Carla was killed with them, you're saying?
所以你是说，在卡拉被杀后他和他们一起度过了很多时间？
Yeah.
是的。
They cleaned the car.
他们把车擦干净了。
They disposed of their clothing.
他们扔掉了衣服。
He wanted the-- the-- because Suna-- this is Suna.
他想要——因为——因为苏娜——这就是苏娜。
Suna's shoes were new.
苏娜的鞋子是新的。
And they wanted Suna to take his coat off and burn his shoes too, because Suna must have had some blood on his shoes, but Suna wouldn't burn his new shoes.
他们还想让苏纳把他的外套脱下来，把他的鞋子也烧掉，因为苏纳的鞋子上一定有血迹，但苏纳不会烧他的新鞋。
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
Wow.
哇。
Was that from text messages?
是短信里的吗？
Were you seeing Suna writing text messages, being like, no, I don't want to go burn my shoes?
你有没有看到苏娜写短信，说，不，我不想去烧鞋子？
No. Suna told us about that.
不，苏娜告诉我们了。
Sierra Crane Murdoch Oh, interesting.
塞拉·克兰·默多克 哦，有趣。
Huh.
呵呵。
He said, my shoes are new.
他说，我的鞋是新的。
I wasn't going to burn my new shoes.
我不想烧掉我的新鞋。
Lissa was right, actually.
事实上，丽莎是对的。
Jan had made up her mind about Suna even before Carla's murder.
甚至在卡拉被谋杀之前，简就已经决定要照顾苏娜了。
She had prosecuted his rape case 15 years earlier.
15年前，她曾起诉过他的强奸案。
Jan said it was violent.
简说这很暴力。
She remembered this when she began prosecuting Carla's case.
当她开始起诉卡拉的案件时，她想起了这一点。
Suna is very conniving.
苏娜非常纵容。
I wanted Suna to be incarcerated after his plea, but he talked me out of it.
我希望苏纳在认罪后被监禁，但他劝我打消了这个念头。
And I can't believe he talked me out of it, but he did.
我不敢相信他说服了我，但他做到了。
It was like, honest to god, Janice, I'll this and-- he always called me by my first name too, called me Janice-- honest to god.
就像，对上帝说实话，珍妮丝，我会这样——他也总是直呼我的名字，叫我珍妮丝——对上帝说实话。
And he is one of the most untruthful people I have ever run across.
他是我遇到过的最不诚实的人之一。
He lies.
他撒谎了。
He lies right to your face.
他当着你的面撒谎。
And he'll continue, until you actually have to take the evidence, put it in his face and say, this is the evidence.
他会继续，直到你真的必须拿出证据，放在他面前说，这就是证据。
The evidence in Carla's case is this.
卡拉案子的证据是这样的。
In the days before Carla was killed, Suna exchanged hundreds of text messages with Dakota Charbonneau, planning how to rob Carla.
在卡拉被杀前几天，苏娜与达科塔·夏博诺交换了数百条短信，计划如何抢劫卡拉。
The prosecution argued that the murder was an accident.
检方辩称，这起谋杀案是一起意外事件。
The other guy with them that night tried to threaten Carla with a gun, and the gun went off.
那天晚上和他们在一起的另一个人试图用枪威胁卡拉，结果枪响了。
But afterward, Suna and Dakota traded more messages about how to cover it up, Jan said.
但随后，苏娜和达科塔就如何掩盖此事交换了更多信息，简说。
I didn't get to see the evidence, but the story Jan told me seemed so different from the one Suna told Lissa.
我没有看到证据，但简告诉我的故事似乎与苏娜告诉丽莎的故事有很大不同。
I didn't know if Lissa knew all of this, so I shared it with her.
我不知道Lissa是否知道这一切，所以我和她分享了。
Well, no, it doesn't.
嗯，不，事实并非如此。
I mean, it's not like it's any new information being presented here.
我的意思是，这里并没有提供任何新信息。
I'm sure Suna did want his money.
我确信苏娜确实想要他的钱。
I'm sure he did want drugs.
我确信他确实想要毒品。
Isn't that what he was there for in the beginning?
他一开始的目的不就是为了这个吗？
Do I know that Suna's a sexual deviant?
我知道苏娜是个性变态吗？
I do.
我愿意。
Does that make him a murderer?
这会让他成为杀人犯吗？
Yeah, but he was at least partially responsible for Carla's death, right?
是的，但他至少对卡拉的死负有部分责任，对吧？
Doesn't that matter?
这没关系吗？
My position is I'm unmoved.
我的立场是不为所动。
I am totally unmoved.
我完全不为所动。
Lissa's now helping Suna's lawyer prepare an appeal.
丽莎现在正在帮助苏娜的律师准备上诉。
When I talked to Suna, he told me that he now looks to Lissa like a mom.
当我和苏娜交谈时，他告诉我，他现在对丽莎来说就像一位母亲。
He still calls her Lisa, but they speak almost every week.
他仍然叫她丽莎，但他们几乎每周都会说话。
Meanwhile, Lissa and Carla's mother, Loretta, they don't speak anymore.
与此同时，丽莎和卡拉的母亲洛雷塔不再说话了。
Is there any part of you that understands why they're angry?
你是否理解他们为什么生气？
This is what I say to people every single time when they ask for my help.
这就是每次当人们寻求我的帮助时我都会对他们说的话。
What are you willing to do to get your loved one back?
为了让你所爱的人回来，你愿意做什么？
What are you willing for me to do to get your loved one back?
为了让你所爱的人回来，你愿意让我做什么？
And you know what the answer always is?
你知道答案是什么吗？
Anything.
任何事物。
Anything.
任何事物。
And it's always at the end when they get what they want when the conditions come out.
当条件成熟时，他们总是会得到他们想要的东西。
Because in the beginning, you said you wanted to do anything.
因为一开始你就说过你想做任何事。
You were willing for me to do anything to get your loved one home.
你愿意让我做任何事来送你所爱的人回家。
And I did that.
我就这么做了。
In this case, the anything Lissa did was to connect with Suna, to get him to trust her.
在这种情况下，莉莎所做的就是与苏娜取得联系，让他信任她。
Lissa's sympathy for Suna doesn't surprise me.
丽莎对苏娜的同情并不让我感到惊讶。
The thing that drives her to look for people no one else is looking for, it's the same thing that drew her to Suna.
促使她去寻找其他人没有在寻找的人的原因，也正是吸引她来到苏娜的原因。
I asked Lissa once, why do you do this work?
我曾经问过丽莎，你为什么做这份工作？
She said, it makes me happy.
她说，这让我很高兴。
It makes me happy to help these people who have no hope left in this world.
帮助这些在这个世界上没有希望的人让我很高兴。
She couldn't save Chucky, she couldn't save Carla, but maybe she could still save Suna.
她无法拯救查基，无法拯救卡拉，但也许她仍然可以拯救苏娜。
Sierra Crane Murdoch.
塞拉·克兰·默多克。
Her book about Lissa, which covers that first incredibly eventful case that Lissa did, it talks about Lissa and her family in so much more detail than we ever were able to cover here today in an hour.
她关于丽莎的书涵盖了丽莎所做的第一个令人难以置信的重大案件，它详细地谈论了丽莎和她的家人，比我们今天在这里一个小时内能够介绍的要详细得多。
It is called Yellow Bird-- Oil, Murder, and a Woman's Search for Justice in Indian Country.
它的名字叫《黄鸟——石油、谋杀和一个女人在印度乡村寻求正义》。
Our program was produced today by Lilly Sullivan.
我们今天的节目由莉莉·沙利文制作。
The people who created today's show include Susan Burton, Ben Calhoun, Dana Chivvis, Sean Cole, Aviva DeKornfeld, Noor Gill, Damien Graef, Chana Joffe-Walt, Miki Meek, Lina Misitzis, Stowe Nelson, Katharine Rae Mondo, Ben Phelan, Nadia Reiman, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, and Nancy Updike.
今天节目的创作者包括 Susan Burton、Ben Calhoun、Dana Chivvis、Sean Cole、Aviva DeKornfeld、Noor Gill、Damien Graef、Chana Joffe-Walt、Miki Meek、Lina Misitzis、Stowe Nelson、Katharine Rae Mondo、Ben Phelan、Nadia Reiman、Christopher Swetala、Matt Tierney 和 Nancy Updike。
Our managing editors are Diane Wu and Sarah Abdurrahman.
我们的执行编辑是 Diane Wu 和 Sarah Abdurrahman。
Our executive editor is David Kestenbaum.
我们的执行编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。
Special thanks today to Paul Yellow Bird McCormick, Shawna Yellow Bird, Jessie Yellow Bird, April Bowman, Sarah Koenig, Brian Reed, Connie Walker, Pat Hogue, Bianca Giaever, Lauren Markham, Charles Hudson, Allison Cohen, Terray Sylvester, Sarah Deer, Zaneta Thayer, and Jessica Lussenhop.
今天特别感谢 Paul Yellow Bird McCormick、Shawna Yellow Bird、Jessie Yellow Bird、April Bowman、Sarah Koenig、Brian Reed、Connie Walker、Pat Hogue、Bianca Giaever、Lauren Markham、Charles Hudson、Allison Cohen、Terray Sylvester、Sarah Deer、Zaneta Thayer 和 Jessica Lussenhop。
Our website, where you can stream our archive of over 700 episodes for absolutely free, thisamericanlife.org.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org，您可以在其中完全免费地观看我们的 700 多集档案。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Special thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地特别感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
You know, he is amazed at how much more efficient he is working from home-- no more getting up at the crack of dawn, climbing the radio station's broadcast tower every morning to check the temperature and wind conditions.
你知道，他对自己在家工作的效率提高了很多感到惊讶——不再需要黎明时分起床，每天早上爬上广播电台的广播塔检查气温和风力状况。
You can look that shit up on the internet.
你可以在网上查一下这个狗屎。
I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life.
我是艾拉·格拉斯，下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
This American Life This American Life 与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。