704: Our Pulitzer-Winning Episode - This American Life

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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #704 | May 15, 2020 704: Our Pulitzer-Winning Episode Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.

00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 704 集 | 2020 年 5 月 15 日 704：我们的普利策获奖剧集 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。

If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.

如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。

Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.

文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。

Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.

请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。

Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass Hey there, everybody.

序言：序言 Ira Glass 大家好。

Ira Glass here.

艾拉·格拉斯在这里。

So last week our program, This American Life, won a Pulitzer Prize.

上周我们的节目《美国生活》获得了普利策奖。

It was the very first Pulitzer ever awarded to a radio show or podcast or audio journalism of any kind.

这是有史以来第一个授予广播节目、播客或音频新闻的普利策奖。

Among broadcasters, this was always kind of a sore point.

对于广播公司来说，这一直是一个痛点。

I have to say that the highest award in journalism, the Pulitzer, was off limits to us.

我不得不说，新闻界的最高奖项普利策奖对我们来说是禁区。

They would not consider us at all for any awards.

他们根本不会考虑我们获得任何奖项。

In fact, a whole other award, the Peabody Award, was started in 1940 as a prize for broadcasters, and one of the reasons that it was was that broadcasters wanted their own version of the Pulitzer.

事实上，另一个奖项——皮博迪奖，于 1940 年开始设立，作为广播公司的奖项，其原因之一是广播公司想要自己版本的普利策奖。

So needless to say, everybody here was very excited to get the award, very excited to be the very first broadcasters to do this.

不用说，在座的每个人都对获得该奖项感到非常兴奋，非常高兴成为第一个这样做的广播公司。

And today we're going to replay the episode that won-- it first ran this past November-- about things happening at the Mexican border.

今天我们将重播获胜的那一集——去年 11 月首次播出——关于墨西哥边境发生的事情。

And what we're going to do is we're going to play the original episode.

我们要做的是播放原始剧集。

I'm going to jump in here and there with updates.

我将在这里和那里跳出更新内容。

But mostly you're going to hear what we originally broadcast.

但大多数情况下，您会听到我们最初广播的内容。

Just FYI, the stuff that we describe happening at the border is pretty much all still happening today, even with COVID-19.

仅供参考，我们所描述的在边境发生的事情今天几乎仍然在发生，即使是在新型冠状病毒肺炎 (COVID-19) 的情况下也是如此。

And what else do I want to say?

我还想说什么？

The little boy that we start the show with, we have a big update on him at the end of the show.

节目开始时与我们一起的小男孩，在节目结束时我们对他进行了重大更新。

He is not at the border anymore, and we talked to him about it this week.

他已经不在边境了，我们本周与他讨论了此事。

Anyway, I'm saying too much.

无论如何，我说太多了。

Here's the show.

这是节目。

Darwin's nine.

达尔文九岁了。

And he's a kid who-- I don't know-- people just give him stuff.

他是一个——我不知道——人们只是给他东西的孩子。

When he met my co-worker, Aviva, he was playing with a soccer ball somebody gave him, eating a taco somebody else gave him.

当他遇到我的同事 Aviva 时，他正在踢别人给他的足球，吃别人给他的玉米卷。

Darwin's mom was explaining all this.

达尔文的妈妈正在解释这一切。

Can you just describe what just happened?

你能简单描述一下刚刚发生的事情吗？

No tengo ni idea.

没有天吾的想法。

Ira Glass I have no idea, she says.

“艾拉·格拉斯，我不知道，”她说。

A man, as you were talking about people just giving him things, walked by and gave you-- how much did he give you?

一个人，当你说人们只是给他东西的时候，走过来给你——他给了你多少钱？

Diez?

迪兹？

Y por que te dio eso?

你是为了什么？

Ira Glass Why'd he give you that?

艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：他为什么给你这个？

Aviva asks him.

艾维瓦问他。

Darwin gives a little shrug like, eh, what can I say?

达尔文耸耸肩，说道，呃，我能说什么？

Porque pensaba que yo estaba pidiendo una moneda.

Porque pensaba que yo estaba pidiendo una moneda.

Because he thought I was asking for a coin.

因为他以为我是在要硬币。

His mom says, he was just sitting there eating.

他妈妈说，他只是坐在那里吃饭。

Yes, I am the king of the camp, he says.

是的，我是营地之王，他说。

As Aviva sits there with Darwin's mom, Elizabeth, he runs off for 15, 20 minutes at a time, and then returns with cash.

当 Aviva 和达尔文的妈妈伊丽莎白坐在那儿时，他每次跑 15、20 分钟，然后带着现金回来。

Cinco!

辛科！

Dolar!

多拉尔！

Ira Glass $5.00.

艾拉·格拉斯 5.00 美元。

She hugs him.

她拥抱他。

Ay, tan lindo.

哎，谭林多。

Muchachito.

穆奇托。

Ira Glass Darwin runs to their tent to pull out all the money he's saved and show Aviva-- $279, a huge wad of cash, which for context, they're living in a makeshift tent camp in Matamoros, Mexico, right over the border from Brownsville, Texas.

艾拉·格拉斯·达尔文 (Ira Glass Darwin) 跑到他们的帐篷里，掏出他存下的所有钱，并向 Aviva 展示——279 美元，一大叠现金。作为背景，他们住在墨西哥马塔莫罗斯的一个临时帐篷营地，就在德克萨斯州布朗斯维尔的边界附近。

And, I mean, immediately on the other side, nestled against the US and the Rio Grande and the customs office.

我的意思是，就在另一边，紧邻美国、格兰德河和海关办公室。

You can see the big red arches of the border station it's so close.

你可以看到边境站的红色大拱门，距离很近。

Over 2,500 people living here, hoping to get asylum in the US.

超过2,500人居住在这里，希望在美国获得庇护。

Darwin and his mom came here from Honduras.

达尔文和他的妈妈从洪都拉斯来到这里。

$279 here is huge.

这里 279 美元是巨大的。

Most people, even the migrants who came with a little money saved, have been here so long they spent it all.

大多数人，甚至是那些带着一点积蓄来到这里的移民，都在这里呆了太久，以至于把钱都花光了。

Our family sends us money, his mom says.

他妈妈说，我们的家人给我们寄了钱。

Lots of families do that.

很多家庭都会这样做。

But he brings in so much more than they send.

但他带来的比他们送出的要多得多。

Es inteligentísimo.

这是智能的。

Ira Glass Aviva then follows Darwin as he walks from the tents to the long line of cars that's waiting at the border to cross into the United States.

随后，艾拉·格拉斯·阿维瓦 (Ira Glass Aviva) 跟随达尔文从帐篷走向在边境等待进入美国的一长串汽车。

He's a happy-looking kid with neatly cut hair and a big smile, really cute.

他是一个看上去很快乐的孩子，头发剪得很整齐，笑容灿烂，非常可爱。

Darwin gives a fist bump to the fruit stand guy, claps the man selling corn on the back to say hello, nods to the half-dozen other vendors working the line.

达尔文向水果摊小贩用拳头击了一下，拍拍卖玉米的男子的背打招呼，并向排队的其他六名小贩点头致意。

Remember, he's nine.

请记住，他九岁了。

When we asked one woman in the camp about him, she was like, oh, El Terremoto-- The Earthquake.

当我们向营地中的一位女士询问他的情况时，她说，哦，El Terremoto——地震。

He holds a finger in the air asking for one coin.

他举起一根手指索要一枚硬币。

He says that's his move-- ask for a coin, and then hopefully they'll give you more than a coin.

他说这就是他的举动——索要一枚硬币，然后希望他们会给你的不仅仅是一枚硬币。

And, in fact, a car with three women waves him over, and the woman in the passenger seat rolls down her window and hands him a dollar.

事实上，一辆载有三名女性的汽车向他招手，副驾驶座上的女性摇下车窗递给他一美元。

Gracias.

谢谢。

Que los bendiga!

这就是本迪加！

Ira Glass Thanks.

艾拉·格拉斯 谢谢。

Bless you.

祝福你。

Are you Cuban?

你是古巴人吗？

He asks her.

他问她。

He says, I knew it-- from your accent.

他说，我从你的口音中就知道了。

And she's like, right, you thought I was from Cuba.

她说，对吧，你以为我来自古巴。

And they laugh.

他们笑了。

The woman asks his name, and he tells her.

女人问他的名字，他告诉了她。

Darwin?

达尔文？

Ira Glass She says she likes his hair.

艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 她说她喜欢他的头发。

I like your hair, he says.

我喜欢你的头发，他说。

He reaches out to stroke her hair.

他伸手抚摸她的头发。

It's straight and blond.

它是直的，金发碧眼。

I like your hair because it's pretty, he says.

我喜欢你的头发，因为它很漂亮，他说。

She laughs and claps her hands.

她笑着拍手。

Look at what a flirt he ended up being.

看看他最后变得多么调情。

Mira coqueto salió este.

Mira coqueto salió este。

Ay Dios mío, tu tienes novia?

你好，你是新的吗？

Bye.

再见。

Bye.

再见。

Ira Glass Darwin runs to his mom, who's watching all this, and gives her the dollar.

艾拉·格拉斯·达尔文跑向他的妈妈，她正在观看这一切，并给了她美元。

Both of them, and the thousands of other people camped here at the border-- to be clear, they're trying to follow the rules and enter the United States through a border station and formally apply for asylum.

他们两人以及其他数千人在边境扎营——需要明确的是，他们试图遵守规则，通过边境站进入美国并正式申请庇护。

It used to be, you'd show up.

以前是这样，你会出现。

If you passed a basic interview, which most people did, you'd wait in the US for your day in court.

如果你通过了基本面试（大多数人都这样做了），你就会在美国等待上法庭的日子。

But now it's all different.

但现在一切都不同了。

Under the Trump administration's Remain in Mexico policy, you get turned back to wait in Mexico.

根据特朗普政府的“留在墨西哥”政策，你会被拒绝在墨西哥等待。

This policy is still pretty new.

这个政策还是很新的。

It really kicked in full force this summer, but it's a profound change with massive consequences.

今年夏天它确实全面爆发，但这是一个深刻的变化，带来了巨大的后果。

One of them, the size of this camp, which didn't exist before President Trump.

其中之一就是这个营地的规模，在特朗普总统之前并不存在。

And all across Mexico, in cities just on the other side of the border, there are now tens of thousands of people-- according to the Department of Homeland Security-- stranded under this policy, in shelters, on the streets, and in encampments like this one, sent by our government without much of a plan for where or how they'd live once they got to Mexico.

据国土安全部称，在墨西哥各地，在边境另一侧的城市，现在有数万人因这项政策而被困在避难所、街道上和像这样的营地中，这些人是我们政府派来的，但对他们到达墨西哥后将在哪里或如何生活没有太多计划。

This camp, for instance, is totally improvised-- long rows of scruffy blue and white and gray tents, over 700 of them, donated by do-gooder groups and churches in America.

例如，这个营地完全是临时搭建的——一长排破烂的蓝、白、灰色帐篷，共有 700 多个，由美国的行善团体和教堂捐赠。

Coleman tents meant for weekend camping, not designed for rain and direct sun and cold for months at a time.

科尔曼帐篷适用于周末露营，不适合连续几个月的雨淋、阳光直射和寒冷。

There's no regular water supply here.

这里没有定期供水。

Volunteer groups from over the border in Brownsville haul in over 3,000 bottles of water each day.

布朗斯维尔的志愿者团体每天从边境那边运来 3,000 多瓶水。

And these are just the little 16-ounce bottles like you would buy with you lunch at a fast food place.

这些只是 16 盎司的小瓶装，就像您在快餐店午餐时购买的一样。

There's no proper sanitation-- just five toilets for over 2,500 people, yellow Porta Potties, which get precisely as gross as you would imagine.

这里没有适当的卫生设施——只有五个厕所可供超过 2,500 人使用，还有黄色的便携式便盆，其肮脏程度正如你想象的那样。

One of the fathers here, Elwin David Baquis, told me that when his 8-year-old daughter needs the bathroom--

这里的一位父亲埃尔文·大卫·巴奎斯 (Elwin David Baquis) 告诉我，当他 8 岁的女儿需要上厕所时——

No, pues si cuando tengo dinero le busco otro baño.

不，请不要把它们都扔掉。

Well, you know, if I have some money, then I'll look and see if I can find her another bathroom to use.

好吧，你知道，如果我有钱的话，我会看看是否能为她找到另一间浴室供她使用。

But if there isn't any, then I'll take her out into the woods, into the mountain, so that she can use the bathroom, do her business, and then we'll go down to the river to wash up.

但如果没有的话，我就带她到树林里去，到山里去，这样她就可以上厕所，做她的事，然后我们就去河边洗漱。

Para tantas personas.

Para tantas 人物角色。

No tienen ni cinco horas cuando ya están repletos.

没有任何时间你五天都可以重复。

And honestly, with the amount of people using them, in five hours, they'll be totally full.

老实说，按照使用它们的人数，五个小时内它们就会完全装满。

And people still keep on going to use them, especially women, because as you can imagine, there's a bunch of men out there in the woods that are using the bathroom, and they don't want to be surrounded by that.

人们仍然继续使用它们，尤其是女性，因为正如你可以想象的那样，树林里有一群男人正在使用浴室，他们不想被包围。

There's a nurse at the camp named Helen Perry who runs a very small relief group with a very grand sounding name-- Global Response Management.

营地里有一位名叫海伦·佩里（Helen Perry）的护士，她管理着一个很小的救援小组，有一个听起来很宏伟的名字——全球响应管理。

With some volunteers, she started a medical tent camp, modeled after the battalion aid stations that she learned to set up back when she was in the Army.

她和一些志愿者一起建立了一个医疗帐篷营地，仿照她在军队时学会建立的营援助站。

Anyway, I mentioned all this to Helen-- that this father and daughter were going up in the woods-- and she was like, oh yeah, knew that.

不管怎样，我向海伦提到了这一切——这对父女要去树林里——她说，哦，是的，知道这一点。

Yeah.

是的。

And then when it rains, all that rainwater washes down there.

然后下雨的时候，所有的雨水都会冲到那里。

Or it washes into the hard spaces in the camp, and they get, you know, infectious diarrhea.

或者它会冲进营地的坚硬空间，然后他们就会患上传染性腹泻。

So--

所以——

Are you seeing a lot of infectious diarrhea?

您是否看到很多感染性腹泻？

Yes.

是的。

Most everyone here has some form of GI something or other-- you know, different types of tapeworms and ringworms.

这里的大多数人都患有某种形式的胃肠道疾病——你知道，不同类型的绦虫和癣。

And the problem is that you treat it, and then they come right back out and they get it again.

问题是你治疗了它，然后他们就回来了，他们又得到了它。

I actually met Elwin because he was Helen's first patient of the day.

我实际上见到了埃尔文，因为他是海伦当天的第一个病人。

He and his daughter both had pinkeye from bathing in the Rio Grande, which is not clean.

他和他的女儿都因为在不干净的格兰德河里洗澡而得了红眼病。

Helen's trying to organize a fix for that.

海伦正在尝试解决这个问题。

So this is actually one of the areas that we're talking about bringing in a water purification system.

所以这实际上是我们正在讨论引入水净化系统的领域之一。

So the Rio Grande is, like, right down there.

所以格兰德河就在那里。

Hola.

你好。

Hola.

你好。

Helen Perry And so what we want to do is put in a water purification system right over here, run a hose out into the water, it'll suck up the water, purify it, and they'll have their own water source.

海伦·佩里：所以我们想要做的就是在这里安装一个水净化系统，将一根软管伸入水中，它会吸走水，净化它，然后他们就有了自己的水源。

I've never-- people are like, have you done water?

我从来没有——人们会问，你做过水吗？

And I'm like, no, but, like, I'll Google it.

我想，不，但是，我会用谷歌搜索一下。

I have to say, this is the thing that hit me hardest in Matamoros.

我不得不说，这是在马塔莫罗斯对我打击最大的事情。

You have thousands of people stuck there, right on our border.

有成千上万的人被困在那里，就在我们的边境。

Two big governments, the United States and Mexico, one of them, of course, a lot richer than the other.

两个大国政府，美国和墨西哥，当然，其中一个比另一个富裕得多。

And nobody's looking after these people with food and water and shelter except a bunch volunteers who raised their hands and said, we cannot ignore this.

除了一群举手说，我们不能忽视这一点的志愿者之外，没有人为这些人提供食物、水和住所。

Buenas tardes.

迟到了。

Hoy día tenemos voluntarios que vienen de Indiana.

亲爱的印第安纳州维也纳的志愿者们。

Good afternoon.

下午好。

Today we have volunteers from Indiana.

今天我们有来自印第安纳州的志愿者。

Y de Indianapolis.

Y de 印第安纳波利斯。

Ira Glass From Indianapolis.

来自印第安纳波利斯的艾拉·格拉斯。

A cocinar para ustedes.

一种cocinar para ustedes。

Ira Glass To cook for you.

艾拉·格拉斯 为你做饭。

So les vamos a decir gracias.

所以 les vamos a decir gracias。

Un aplauso para nuestros voluntarios.

为我们的自愿者鼓掌。

[APPLAUSE] Ira Glass So let's say thanks with a round of applause.

[掌声] Ira Glass 让我们以热烈的掌声表示感谢。

Eight very nice ladies from Indiana in fluorescent green t-shirts start serving food out of aluminum foil trays, food for 1,000 people.

八位来自印第安纳州、身穿荧光绿色 T 恤、非常漂亮的女士开始用铝箔托盘提供食物，可供 1,000 人享用。

It cost $1,900, which they raised back home in $20 donations.

这笔费用为 1,900 美元，是他们通过 20 美元的捐款回家筹集的。

They also paid for their own flights and everything.

他们还支付了自己的航班费用和一切费用。

An impressively competent group that calls itself Team Brownsville, started by a bunch of teachers, all volunteer, has organized this so a different bunch of people shows up five nights a week with food.

一个令人印象深刻的称职小组，自称为布朗斯维尔队，由一群老师和志愿者发起，组织了这次活动，以便每周五个晚上都有不同的人带着食物出现。

They also pay for a Matamoros restaurant to deliver hundreds of breakfasts each day.

他们还花钱请马塔莫罗斯餐厅每天提供数百份早餐。

The food today is fresh, but very north of the border and very plain-- slices of ham and cheese on white bread, tangerines, grapes, baby carrots.

今天的食物很新鲜，但来自边境以北，而且非常简单——白面包上的火腿和奶酪片、橘子、葡萄、小胡萝卜。

Everybody we ask about the food, though, is polite enough to say how great it is.

不过，我们询问食物的每个人都很有礼貌地说食物有多棒。

Si.

斯。

Todos los dias Ira Glass It's tasty, this guy tells Aviva.

Todos los dias Ira Glass 这家伙告诉 Aviva，这很好吃。

It's tasty, right?

很好吃，对吧？

He says to the woman next to him.

他对旁边的女人说道。

Oh, sure, very tasty, she says.

哦，当然，非常好吃，她说。

Soon as Aviva walks away, the interpreter who was with us for the day, Gabby Muñoz, overhears what happens next.

阿维瓦走开后不久，当天与我们在一起的翻译盖比·穆尼奥斯 (Gabby Muñoz) 无意中听到了接下来发生的事情。

Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

Then afterwards, her friend, or the guy-- the person's friend, was like, what did she ask you?

然后，她的朋友，或者那个人——那个人的朋友，就像，她问了你什么？

And he's like, well, she asked me how good the food was.

他就像，好吧，她问我食物有多好吃。

And I said it was good, but what the fuck else was I supposed to say?

我说这很好，但我他妈的还能说什么？

[CHUCKLING] Ira Glass Generally they try to get the volunteers out of the camp by nightfall, because Matamoros isn't safe.

[咯咯笑]艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：一般来说，他们会在夜幕降临前将志愿者带出营地，因为马塔莫罗斯并不安全。

The cartels are here.

卡特尔在这里。

The city has one of the highest kidnapping rates in Mexico according to the US State Department.

据美国国务院称，该市是墨西哥绑架率最高的城市之一。

Its web page about Matamoros says, murder, carjacking, and sexual assault are common.

其有关马塔莫罗斯的网页称，谋杀、劫车和性侵犯很常见。

Gang gun battles are widespread.

帮派枪战十分普遍。

Anybody here is at high risk.

这里的任何人都处于高风险之中。

Not far from where they serve the food, like, just 20 feet or so from the actual border station, a woman named Jenny and her husband and her daughter set up their tent.

距离他们提供食物的地方不远，距离实际边境站仅 20 英尺左右，一位名叫珍妮 (Jenny) 的妇女和她的丈夫和女儿搭起了帐篷。

I asked her if she chose that spot because it seemed like the safest, closest into the border like that.

我问她选择那个地方是否是因为它看起来最安全，最靠近边境。

Si, es más seguro...

Si，es más seguro...

Ira Glass She said yes and explained that she and her husband and daughter had been kidnapped in the last city they were in.

艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）她答应了，并解释说她和她的丈夫和女儿在他们所在的最后一个城市被绑架了。

Fue en Reynosa.

雷诺萨的富埃。

Quince días estuvimos secuestrados.

柑橘 días estuvimos secuestrados。

So it was in Reynosa, and we were kidnapped for 15 days.

就在雷诺萨，我们被绑架了 15 天。

Ira Glass She starts to tell the story of her family and the cartel and the house they were held in.

艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）开始讲述她的家人、贩毒集团以及关押他们的房子的故事。

But as she does, a man quietly approaches and just kind of hovers nearby, listening.

但就在她这样做的时候，一个男人悄悄地走近，在附近徘徊，倾听着。

And she says, atrás, atrás, atrás-- look behind you-- and covers her face.

她说，阿特拉斯，阿特拉斯，阿特拉斯——看看你的身后——然后捂住了脸。

Atrás atrás atrás.

阿特拉斯阿特拉斯阿特拉斯。

Están viendo.

埃斯坦维恩多。

Atrás.

阿特拉斯。

No hay que hablar de eso.

没有 hay que hablar de eso。

Están atrás.

埃斯坦·阿特拉斯。

Peligroso.

佩利格罗索。

Ira Glass We switch the subject.

艾拉·格拉斯 我们转换话题。

He goes away.

他走了。

A journalist who's in this camp a lot confirmed that he was a cartel guy.

一名经常参加这个阵营的记者证实他是卡特尔成员。

How much violence there is against people in the camp is not clear.

目前尚不清楚营地内有多少针对人们的暴力行为。

The nurse, Helen Perry, has heard about people being kidnapped from the camp, but that's hard to confirm.

护士海伦·佩里 (Helen Perry) 听说营地里有人被绑架，但很难证实。

And she told me this story.

她告诉我这个故事。

When I first showed up in the camp, a woman came up to me and asked me if we would be bringing in condoms, because when she got sexually assaulted again, she wanted to be able to ask her attacker to wear a condom so she wouldn't get pregnant.

当我第一次出现在营地时，一位女士走过来问我是否可以带安全套，因为当她再次遭到性侵犯时，她希望能够要求攻击者戴上安全套，这样她就不会怀孕。

In her relief work, Helen's been to lots of places where migrants and refugees are stranded like this.

在救援工作中，海伦去过很多像这样滞留移民和难民的地方。

But the security issues here, the lack of predictable food and water and sanitation, five toilets where there should be 125, no proper tents for people--

但这里存在安全问题，缺乏可预见的食物、水和卫生设施，本应有 125 个厕所却只有 5 个，没有合适的帐篷供人们使用——

When I first saw it, I was literally just dumbfounded.

当我第一次看到它时，我真的傻眼了。

Because I've seen refugee situations like this.

因为我见过这样的难民情况。

I've been to Bangladesh.

我去过孟加拉国。

I've seen Cox's Bazar.

我看过考克斯巴扎尔。

I've been to Iraq.

我去过伊拉克。

I've seen the IDP camps.

我见过国内流离失所者营地。

I've seen the refugee camps from Syria.

我看过叙利亚的难民营。

I'd say this was the worst.

我想说这是最糟糕的。

Yeah, I would definitely say that this is the worst, if at a bare minimum for a lack of humanitarian accountability for what's happening to these people.

是的，我肯定会说，这是最糟糕的，至少是因为对这些人所发生的事情缺乏人道主义责任。

You mean that nobody's keeping a count of who's here and who isn't, who goes in and who goes out.

你的意思是没有人记录谁在这里、谁不在、谁进去、谁出去。

Who goes in, who goes out, who goes missing.

谁进去，谁出去，谁失踪。

At a proper refugee camp, she says, like a United Nations camp, they'd have that-- a big tall fence, somebody keeping track of who comes in and out.

她说，在一个合适的难民营，就像联合国难民营一样，他们会有一个高大的栅栏，有人跟踪谁进出。

When we asked Mexican officials about conditions in this camp, they said they aren't helping the 2,500 people here because they don't want a permanent tent city in the spot.

当我们向墨西哥官员询问这个营地的情况时，他们说他们不会帮助这里的 2,500 人，因为他们不想在当地建立永久性的帐篷城。

They want people to move to government shelters.

他们希望人们搬到政府避难所。

And the United Nations said they won't step in unless the Mexican government invites them to step in.

联合国表示，除非墨西哥政府邀请他们介入，否则他们不会介入。

The United States, whose policies landed people here in the first place, has also donated $5 million to house them in Mexico.

美国的政策首先让人们来到这里，现在也捐赠了 500 万美元为他们在墨西哥提供住房。

The money doesn't go to tent camps like this one but to the official Mexican government shelters.

这笔钱不会流向像这样的帐篷营地，而是流向墨西哥政府官方避难所。

It's enough money to shelter 8,000 people.

这些钱足够8000人的住所。

But we sent way more people than that back across the border, over 57,000, under the Remain in Mexico policy, plus another 21,000 who immigration officials haven't even begun to process.

但根据“留在墨西哥”政策，我们送回边境的人数比这个多得多，超过 57,000 人，另外还有 21,000 人，移民官员甚至还没有开始处理。

We've told them, the system's backed up.

我们已经告诉他们，系统已备份。

You should sit on a waiting list, stay in Mexico, and we'll get to your cases in a few months.

您应该坐在等候名单上，留在墨西哥，我们将在几个月内处理您的案件。

And these are mostly people who in the past, before President Trump, would have been allowed into the United States to wait for their asylum court dates here.

这些人大多是过去在特朗普总统之前被允许进入美国等待庇护法庭日期的人。

It's so many people we're pushing back across the border, resulting in refugee camps that we don't call refugee camps right on our country's doorstep.

我们将如此多的人赶回边境，导致难民营在我们国家的家门口出现，但我们并不称其为难民营。

Today we try to understand what this new policy means for the people we send across the border.

今天，我们试图了解这项新政策对我们送出边境的人意味着什么。

We also hear from US officials who sent them there who are not feeling so great about it themselves.

我们还听到派他们去那里的美国官员说他们自己对此感觉不太好。

From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.

来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Stay with us.

留在我们身边。

Act One, "Goodbye, Stranger." So like I said at the top of the program, today's show was first broadcast in November, and we are rerunning it today because it just won the Pulitzer Prize.

第一幕“再见，陌生人”。正如我在节目开头所说，今天的节目于 11 月首次播出，我们今天重播它是因为它刚刚获得了普利策奖。

This is one of the spots where I'm jumping into the original broadcast to say, the president's policies at the border have only intensified since we first broadcast this show.

这是我跳入原始广播的地方之一，说，自从我们第一次广播这个节目以来，总统的边境政策只会加强。

Since COVID-19 in March, the administration shut down the border to all asylum seekers.

自 3 月份发生新冠肺炎 (COVID-19) 疫情以来，政府对所有寻求庇护者关闭了边境。

Asylum hearings aren't going to resume until late June, though it seems possible that even that date is going to get pushed back.

庇护听证会要到六月下旬才会恢复，尽管这个日期似乎也有可能被推迟。

When we first broadcast this program, one of the things that we were especially interested in was the US officials on the front lines whose job under Remain in Mexico is to send people back.

当我们第一次播出这个节目时，我们特别感兴趣的一件事是在前线的美国官员，他们在“留在墨西哥”下的工作就是送人回国。

Lots of them were resigning, saying, no, that's actually not my job.

他们中的很多人都辞职了，说，不，这实际上不是我的工作。

Los Angeles Times reporter, Molly O'Toole, talked to a bunch of them.

《洛杉矶时报》记者莫莉·奥图尔采访了其中的一些人。

And here is the version of the story that we ran in the fall.

这是我们在秋天报道的故事版本。

Before the Remain in Mexico policy began and upended the asylum system and completely changed what it is to be an asylum officer, here's how the job used to work.

在“留在墨西哥”政策开始并颠覆庇护制度并彻底改变庇护官员的身份之前，这项工作过去是这样进行的。

When a Central American showed up at the US-Mexico border and said, "Let me in, I'm afraid of going back to my country," that's where the asylum officer came in.

当一名中美洲人出现在美墨边境并说：“让我进去，我害怕回到我的国家”时，庇护官员就进来了。

The officer did something called a credible fear screening to check if the person was likely to face harm or death if the US sent them back home.

该官员进行了一项名为“可信恐惧筛查”的工作，以检查如果美国将他们送回国，该人是否可能面临伤害或死亡。

If there's even a chance that they would, the asylum officer would let them into the United States to wait for a court date, where an immigration judge would make the final call.

如果有机会的话，庇护官员会让他们进入美国等待开庭日期，移民法官将做出最后决定。

Doug Stephens says people don't understand how hard the job is.

道格·斯蒂芬斯说，人们不明白这项工作有多辛苦。

At the time all this started, he was an asylum officer in San Francisco.

当这一切开始时，他是旧金山的一名庇护官员。

And so I'd have people come into my office.

所以我会让人们来到我的办公室。

And my job essentially is, tell me the worst things that have happened to you.

我的工作本质上是，告诉我发生在你身上的最糟糕的事情。

You have an hour.

你有一个小时的时间。

Go.

去。

And then I'll decide if you're telling me the truth, and I'll decide if you get to stay.

然后我会决定你是否告诉我真相，我会决定你是否留下来。

You are expected to be-- or, really, to do the job well, need to be-- an expert in the political, cultural, social, and economic situations in innumerable countries around the world.

您应该成为——或者说，实际上，为了做好这项工作，需要成为——世界上无数国家的政治、文化、社会和经济状况的专家。

And you're expected to be a human lie detector, all at once.

你应该立刻成为一名人类测谎仪。

President Trump talks about asylum itself as if it's fraud.

特朗普总统谈论庇护本身就好像它是欺诈一样。

He says it's a hoax, a big fat con job, that people come in with fake asylum claims, that asylum officers just let everyone through, and then asylum seekers never show up for their day in court, that it's a border-wide, 2,000-mile loophole.

他说这是一个骗局，一个大骗局，人们带着虚假的庇护申请进来，庇护官员只是让每个人通过，然后寻求庇护者从来没有出现在法庭上，这是一个全边境、2000英里的漏洞。

And it's true that most people do pass that first step with an asylum officer and enter the United States.

确实，大多数人确实通过了庇护官员的第一步并进入美国。

But there's a good reason for that.

但这是有充分理由的。

It's built into US asylum law-- a commonsense humanitarian idea.

它已纳入美国庇护法——这是一种常识性的人道主义理念。

We don't want to send people back to situations where they'd get tortured or killed.

我们不想让人们回到他们会遭受酷刑或杀害的地方。

The legal term is non-refoulment.

法律术语是不驱回。

And so US law set the bar low.

因此，美国法律将门槛定得很低。

If there's basically any chance an asylum seeker could get killed or harmed, the officer is supposed to let them into the US and doesn't need a lot of proof or evidence at that point.

如果寻求庇护者基本上有可能被杀或受伤，官员应该让他们进入美国，并且此时不需要大量证据或证据。

Later, when they get before an immigration judge-- and by the way, the majority do show up-- there they need proof.

后来，当他们到达移民法官面前时——顺便说一句，大多数人确实出现了——他们需要证据。

And most of them get rejected.

而且大多数都被拒绝了。

Even before President Trump took office, less than 15% per year got asylum, and that's because most people don't meet the specific criteria in the law, or don't have enough evidence.

即使在特朗普总统上任之前，每年只有不到 15% 的人获得庇护，这是因为大多数人不符合法律中的具体标准，或者没有足够的证据。

Or it doesn't check out.

要么就查不出来。

All the asylum officers I've ever spoken with see it as their job to weed out the fakers, the people who don't really need protection, the ones who are just trying to game the system.

与我交谈过的所有庇护官员都认为，他们的工作就是清除造假者、那些并不真正需要保护的人、那些只是想玩弄制度的人。

Oh, my god.

我的天啊。

Like, here's where I'm going to be real with you.

就像，这就是我要对你说实话的地方。

This is an asylum officer we're calling Ursula.

这是一位庇护官员，我们称之为乌苏拉。

This isn't her voice.

这不是她的声音。

She's afraid of getting fired, so we had an actor copy what she said as closely as possible.

她害怕被解雇，所以我们让一个演员尽可能地模仿她说的话。

The fraud is, like, happening on a scale that's ri-- that's huge.

欺诈发生的规模非常大。

We're talking, like, hundreds of people a month.

我们每个月与数百人交谈。

I interviewed three asylum officers for this story.

为了这个故事，我采访了三名庇护官员。

And all three said the groups that have been the primary target of President Trump's immigration policies, they actually aren't the main ones committing fraud.

三人都表示，特朗普总统移民政策的主要目标群体实际上并不是实施欺诈的主要群体。

It's not the Central Americans.

这不是中美洲人。

It's not the Middle Eastern people.

这不是中东人。

It is the Indian people and the Chinese people.

这是印度人民和中国人民。

They all have the same bullshit story about getting beaten with hockey sticks three times because they're part of a Sikh party, and the police told them they're going to jail them if they ever bad mouth the ruling party ever again.

他们都有同样的废话，因为他们是锡克党的一员，被曲棍球棒殴打了三遍，警察告诉他们，如果他们再唱执政党的坏话，他们就会被关进监狱。

Bullshit.

废话。

They all just happened to do the same thing and suffer the same fate, even though there's absolutely no confirmation in any media that any of this persecution is happening, and studies done by our Department of State counterparts in the country are straight up like, this is not a real thing.

他们只是碰巧做了同样的事情，遭受同样的命运，尽管任何媒体都绝对没有证实这种迫害正在发生，而且我们国务院同行在该国所做的研究表明，这不是真实的事情。

The Chinese are running a similar scam with Christian claims.

中国人也在用基督教的说法进行类似的骗局。

In the fall of 2018, asylum officers started hearing about these big changes coming.

2018 年秋天，庇护官员开始听说这些即将发生的重大变化。

The policy that was first called Remain in Mexico and then, later, Migrant Protection Protocols, MPP.

该政策最初被称为“留在墨西哥”，后来被称为“移民保护协议”(MPP)。

But the asylum officers who were going to have to implement this thing, they didn't know any of the details of how they were supposed to do it.

但是那些必须实施这件事的庇护官员，他们不知道他们应该如何做的任何细节。

This is another asylum officer.

这是另一位庇护官员。

We're calling her Anne.

我们叫她安妮。

We used an actor here, too, to protect her identity.

我们在这里也使用了一位演员来保护她的身份。

Over the next few weeks, Anne starts picking up around the office that some of her colleagues were being called in quietly and asked to go to the border in San Diego.

在接下来的几周里，安妮开始在办公室里发现她的一些同事被悄悄叫来，并被要求前往圣地亚哥边境。

And instead of the credible fear screenings they'd always done, they seemed to be doing something entirely different under MPP, a whole new kind of interview with different rules.

他们似乎没有像以前那样进行可信的恐惧筛查，而是在 MPP 下做一些完全不同的事情，这是一种采用不同规则的全新采访方式。

She knew she was going to have to start doing them, too, so she pulled aside a coworker who'd already been sent to the border.

她知道自己也必须开始做这些事情，所以她把一位已经被派往边境的同事拉到一边。

I was asking her, hey, like, what's the training?

我问她，嘿，训练是什么？

Like, what is this?

比如，这是什么？

And she was like, I am not allowed to talk to you about it.

她说，我不被允许和你谈论这件事。

Another asylum officer?

另一个庇护官员？

Anne Yeah.

安妮 是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Is this someone who you'd, like, consider a friend, or just sort of, like, professional colleague?

这是您认为是朋友的人，还是只是职业同事？

Good colleague-- a good colleague, someone that we had mutual trust, for sure, and then was told-- was brought in by a supervisor for, like, a special brief about it before I was going to start doing these interviews, and was told, here's the skinny on it and don't tell anyone.

好同事——一个好同事，一个我们相互信任的人，当然，然后被告知——被主管带进来，在我开始进行这些采访之前，做一个关于这件事的特别简介，并被告知，这是最简单的，不要告诉任何人。

Why?

为什么？

Anne Because I think they knew that it was legally dubious and suspect, and they wanted to keep the leak to a minimum.

安妮：因为我认为他们知道这在法律上是可疑的，而且他们希望将泄密情况降至最低。

The leak being a major policy rollout that was going to change asylum?

这次泄密是一项将改变庇护的重大政策的推出？

That's the leak, yeah.

这就是泄漏，是的。

Molly O'Toole Two months go by before they do a formal training session with the full asylum corps, and it's just a PowerPoint.

莫莉·奥图尔：两个月过去了，他们才对整个庇护团进行正式培训，而这只是一个 PowerPoint。

Here's Ursula again.

乌苏拉又来了。

Hands were going up and being like, wait, how is this legal?

大家举手说，等等，这怎么合法？

Or-- how are we going to be doing this, and how do we know how this works?

或者——我们将如何做到这一点，以及我们如何知道它是如何运作的？

All three of the asylum officers I talked to said that the presentation left them with lots of questions, including the biggest one-- how is this legal?

我采访过的三名庇护官员都表示，这次演示给他们留下了很多问题，其中最大的一个是——这如何合法？

These officers knew better than almost anyone how dangerous Mexico is, and this policy seemed designed to send tons of people back to Mexico.

这些官员比几乎任何人都清楚墨西哥有多危险，而这项政策似乎旨在将大量人员送回墨西哥。

It seemed to be in direct contradiction with US asylum law, which says that, at the very least, we can't send people back to a situation where they'd get harmed or killed.

这似乎与美国庇护法直接矛盾，该法规定，至少我们不能将人们送回他们会受到伤害或杀害的境地。

We can't violate the principle of non-refoulment.

我们不能违反不驱回原则。

And the response was like, I'm just the messenger bringing this down from HQ, and this is the PowerPoint they gave us.

得到的回应是，我只是从总部带来这件事的信使，这是他们给我们的 PowerPoint。

I was like, well, if you don't even care about double checking that this is legal and you're just the messenger, as you say, you're a fucking asshole, you know?

我当时想，好吧，如果你甚至不关心仔细检查这是否合法，而你只是信使，正如你所说，你就是一个他妈的混蛋，你知道吗？

All three officers say they raised concerns and got roughly the same response-- just get out there and do your job.

三名警官均表示，他们提出了担忧，并得到了大致相同的回应——出去做好你的工作。

What they found out soon enough was just how radical a change the new MPP interviews were from the old credible fear screenings.

他们很快发现，新的 MPP 访谈与旧的可信恐惧筛查相比发生了多么彻底的变化。

For starters, not everyone would get an interview.

首先，并不是每个人都会得到面试机会。

Only the people who volunteered that they were scared to go back to Mexico would.

只有那些自愿表示害怕回到墨西哥的人才会这么做。

If they got an interview, under MPP, asylum seekers would have to prove that they'd be harmed in Mexico, not their home country.

根据 MPP，寻求庇护者如果接受面谈，就必须证明他们是在墨西哥而不是在自己的祖国受到伤害。

And not just any harm-- they can't just be threatened by gangs or the police.

而且不仅仅是任何伤害——他们不能仅仅受到帮派或警察的威胁。

They have to be threatened by gangs, or, police or whoever because of some very specific reasons laid out in the US law-- because of their nationality, race, religion, politics, or being part of a particular social group, like LGBTQ.

由于美国法律中规定的一些非常具体的原因，他们必须受到帮派、警察或任何人的威胁——因为他们的国籍、种族、宗教、政治或属于特定社会群体，如 LGBTQ。

And they'd have to show that the Mexican government, like a cop or an official, was unable or unwilling to protect them.

他们必须证明墨西哥政府，就像警察或官员一样，无法或不愿意保护他们。

And the asylum seeker couldn't just say all this happened, like they could under credible fear screenings.

寻求庇护者不能只是说这一切都发生了，就像他们在可信的恐惧筛查下所做的那样。

Now they'd need to prove it.

现在他们需要证明这一点。

It's like, as asylum seekers were traveling through Mexico, fleeing for their lives, they should have been gathering evidence of all the screwed up things happening to them there.

这就好像，当寻求庇护者穿越墨西哥、逃命时，他们应该收集在那里发生的所有糟糕事情的证据。

Making a paper trail.

制作纸迹。

And they should have had all of this evidence on them right then, right after crossing the border-- which, of course, is next to impossible, especially because they had no idea any of this was required.

他们应该在跨越边境后立即拥有所有这些证据——当然，这几乎是不可能的，特别是因为他们不知道需要这些证据。

Doug saw all this happening and wanted nothing to do with it.

道格目睹了这一切的发生，并不想与此有任何关系。

So he tried to keep his head down to try and avoid having to do these interviews, hoping the courts would kill MPP.

因此，他试图低下头，试图避免接受这些采访，希望法院能杀死 MPP。

But they didn't.

但他们没有。

By June, MPP returns had skyrocketed, and it was all hands on deck for the asylum corps.

到了 6 月，MPP 的回归人数猛增，庇护部队全力以赴。

Doug couldn't dodge it anymore.

道格再也无法躲避。

And I got the email.

我收到了电子邮件。

Molly O'Toole It said, you're doing MPP interviews today.

莫莉·奥图尔：上面说，你今天要接受 MPP 采访。

So I had a father and son.

所以我有一个父亲和一个儿子。

The son, I think, was preteens, 11 or 12.

我想，儿子还不到青春期，大概 11 岁或 12 岁。

They're fleeing Honduras because of violence and other problems.

由于暴力和其他问题，他们逃离洪都拉斯。

We didn't talk about that much because it doesn't matter for the purpose of MPP.

我们没有谈论那么多，因为这对于 MPP 的目的来说并不重要。

I'm focused only on why they're afraid to go back to Mexico.

我只关注他们为什么害怕回到墨西哥。

Of course, the guy and his son don't understand why they're even talking about Mexico.

当然，这家伙和他的儿子不明白为什么他们要谈论墨西哥。

They don't understand any of this at all.

他们根本不明白这些。

The interview continued.

采访继续进行。

So he had tried to find a place to live there, had tried to get a work permit in Mexico, and was essentially denied.

因此，他试图在那里找到一个住处，并试图在墨西哥获得工作许可证，但基本上被拒绝了。

And as they're transiting, he's talking about, you know, encountering cartels and witnessing other migrants being murdered and tortured in front of his son-- and fleeing and barely getting away, you know, while death threats are being shouted at him.

当他们过境时，他正在谈论，你知道，遇到卡特尔，目睹其他移民在他儿子面前被谋杀和折磨，然后逃跑，几乎没有逃脱，你知道，同时有人向他大声喊叫死亡威胁。

And, you know, talking about his son having nightmares for weeks because of this.

而且，你知道，谈论他的儿子因此连续几周做噩梦。

And then they get stopped by the police.

然后他们就被警察拦住了。

And the police take all of their money, their cell phones.

警察拿走了他们所有的钱和手机。

And because I can't get them to say these magic words of like, yeah, they threatened me because I'm Honduran-- like, that's all they had to say.

因为我无法让他们说出这些神奇的话，比如，是的，他们威胁我，因为我是洪都拉斯人——就像，这就是他们不得不说的。

But they don't know that, right?

但他们不知道，对吧？

Because I'm Honduran.

因为我是洪都拉斯人。

Those would be the magic words that would put them in a protected category.

这些都是将它们归入受保护类别的神奇词。

They were targeted because of their nationality.

他们因为国籍而成为攻击目标。

Though even if the father had said "because I'm Honduran," they probably still would have been sent back to Mexico, because odds are he didn't have any evidence proving that any of this happened.

尽管即使父亲说“因为我是洪都拉斯人”，他们可能仍然会被送回墨西哥，因为他很可能没有任何证据证明这一切发生过。

Doug, he did what the policy told him to do.

道格，他按照政策的要求做了。

He sent them back to Mexico.

他把他们送回墨西哥。

The old credible fear screenings usually took an hour or less.

旧的可信恐惧筛查通常需要一个小时或更短的时间。

These MPP interviews can last four, five, six hours.

这些 MPP 访谈可能会持续四、五、六个小时。

When I asked these asylum officers to describe what these interviews are like-- for them, for the migrants in front of them.

当我要求这些庇护官员描述一下这些采访对他们来说是怎样的，对他们面前的移民来说是怎样的。

Ursula gave the most vivid picture.

乌苏拉给出了最生动的描述。

She told me about the very first MPP interview she did-- a family from El Salvador, two parents and two kids.

她向我讲述了她接受的第一次 MPP 采访——一个来自萨尔瓦多的家庭，有两个父母和两个孩子。

She had a script she had to stick to.

她有一个必须遵守的剧本。

The family was exhausted, and traumatized, and totally unprepared.

一家人精疲力竭，精神受到创伤，完全没有准备。

You're put into a cell.

你被关进牢房。

You're separated from your kids and your wife.

你与你的孩子和你的妻子分开了。

You have no idea what's going on because you thought today you were going to be interviewed about El Salvador, and you were going to get to enter the United States.

您不知道发生了什么，因为您认为今天您将接受有关萨尔瓦多的采访，并且您将进入美国。

A couple hours later, they lead you into this freezing cold cell where they chain your hands to a table in handcuffs, and someone is sitting across from you who doesn't speak your language and starts talking to someone in the phone who starts translating to you that you're going to talk about Mexico.

几个小时后，他们把你带进这个冰冷的牢房，把你的双手戴上手铐锁在桌子上，坐在你对面的人不会说你的语言，他开始和电话里的人交谈，后者开始翻译给你说你要谈论墨西哥。

You smell like shit because you've been living in a shelter without any running water for a month and a half, plus you've traveled all the way across Central America to get there, and you don't understand why someone is talking to you about Mexico.

你闻起来像屎，因为你已经在没有自来水的避难所里生活了一个半月，再加上你长途跋涉穿越中美洲才到达那里，你不明白为什么有人和你谈论墨西哥。

This interview goes on for an hour and a half, and the person keeps pausing it so they can talk to someone on the computer, which they say is their supervisor.

这次采访持续了一个半小时，此人不断暂停，以便他们可以与计算机上的某人交谈，他们说这是他们的主管。

And another guard leads your wife in that you haven't seen in the last 12 hours into the interview room.

另一名警卫带着你的妻子（你已经在过去 12 小时内没有见过）进入了审讯室。

And you can, you know, brush her hand as she passes by.

你知道，当她经过时，你可以刷她的手。

You're so happy to see her because you've been separated, and you have no idea what's going on.

你很高兴见到她，因为你们已经分开了，而且你不知道发生了什么事。

So, where are my children?

那么，我的孩子们在哪里？

I don't know, sir.

我不知道，先生。

I'm sure they'll be fine.

我相信他们会没事的。

Your wife goes through a similar interview, but she keeps being confronted about the answers she's giving because they're different from yours.

你的妻子也经历过类似的面试，但她不断地面临着她给出的答案，因为它们与你的不同。

And the officer can't understand why this story varies so differently between two people who experienced it.

这位警官无法理解为什么这个故事在两个经历过的人之间会有如此不同的差异。

Half an hour passes before her children are brought into the room.

半个小时过去了，她的孩子们才被带进房间。

And then the officer has to talk to a 10-year-old boy about whatever his parents said and then confront the 10-year-old boy on inconsistencies between his story and his parents' story.

然后，警官必须与一名 10 岁男孩谈论他父母所说的一切，然后就他的故事与父母的故事之间的不一致问题与该 10 岁男孩对质。

And then the wife is like, when am I going to see my husband again?

然后妻子就想，我什么时候才能再见到我的丈夫？

And the officer is like, I have no idea.

那位官员说，我不知道。

Let them know if you need to use the bathroom.

让他们知道您是否需要使用浴室。

Ursula made the case that the families shouldn't get sent back to Mexico.

乌苏拉认为这些家庭不应该被送回墨西哥。

And to her shock, her supervisor agreed.

令她震惊的是，她的主管同意了。

In fact, she happened to walk outside the moment the family got released.

事实上，家人被释放后，她正好走到外面。

They've got their backpacks on.

他们已经背上背包了

They're holding hands.

他们手牵手。

She thought, maybe this won't be so bad.

她想，也许事情不会那么糟糕。

But that was the last time.

但那是最后一次了。

The very next interview, a woman told her over and over she was afraid of being raped and killed in Mexico.

在接下来的采访中，一名妇女一遍又一遍地告诉她，她害怕在墨西哥被强奸和杀害。

Ursula believed she was going back to a place where that was very possible.

乌苏拉相信她会回到一个很有可能实现这一目标的地方。

But because the woman couldn't name a specific person who'd assault her, Ursula had to send her back.

但由于这名女子无法说出袭击她的具体人的名字，乌苏拉不得不将她送回去。

Since then it's essentially been no after no after no.

从那时起，基本上就没有再没有了。

Asylum officers told me that even when they find one of those unicorn cases, where they check off all the boxes and recommend not returning to Mexico, their supervisors overrule them.

庇护官员告诉我，即使他们发现其中一个独角兽案件，他们勾选了所有方框并建议不要返回墨西哥，他们的主管也会否决他们。

Anne told me and my producer, Nadia Reiman, about one asylum seeker's case where their attacker even spelled out their motive, and it still didn't fly.

安妮告诉我和我的制片人纳迪亚·雷曼（Nadia Reiman），关于一名寻求庇护者的案件，袭击者甚至详细说明了他们的动机，但仍然没有成功。

It was basically a situation where there was a really clear connection to the nationality.

这基本上是一种与国籍有明确联系的情况。

Like, the persecutor had, like, really said, like, I am harming you because of this nationality-- your nationality.

就像，迫害者确实说过，就像，我因为这个国籍——你的国籍而伤害你。

And the harm was really, really severe.

而且伤害真的非常非常严重。

It was like, definitely torture.

这绝对是一种折磨。

And it was really clear that the police, like, weren't going to do a thing about it, didn't care at all.

很明显，警察不会对此采取任何行动，根本不在乎。

And the supervisor rejected it.

然后主管就拒绝了。

Why?

为什么？

Did they say why?

他们有说为什么吗？

Anne They said, we can't show that if this individual went back to Mexico the persecutor would be able to locate them.

安妮：他们说，我们无法证明，如果这个人回到墨西哥，迫害者就能找到他们。

So the standard today is upside down from what it used to be under credible fear.

因此，今天的标准与过去可信的恐惧下的标准完全不同。

Instead of, let's err on the side of letting people in because we don't want anyone to be tortured or die, under MPP, the standard is almost impossibly high, so almost nobody gets in.

相反，我们宁愿让人们进来，因为我们不想让任何人受到折磨或死亡，在 MPP 下，标准几乎高得令人难以置信，所以几乎没有人进去。

The Department of Homeland Security says only about 960 people interviewed have not been sent back to Mexico.

国土安全部表示，只有约 960 名接受采访的人尚未被遣返回墨西哥。

Ultimately, of a little more than 47,000 MPP cases registered as of October, with about 37,000 of those still pending-- of those, only 11 people have been granted asylum or some other kind of relief, according to Syracuse University, which tracks all this using government statistics.

最终，根据雪城大学的数据，截至 10 月份登记的 MPP 案件略多于 47,000 起，其中约 37,000 起仍在审理中，其中只有 11 人获得庇护或某种其他形式的救济，该大学使用政府统计数据跟踪所有这些情况。

11.

11.

And that's what the policy was meant to do.

这就是该政策的目的。

The administration credits MPP for a sharp drop in the numbers coming to the border.

政府将入境人数大幅下降归功于 MPP。

Mark Morgan, the acting head of Customs and Border Protection, calls it a game changer and absolutely successful.

海关和边境保护局代理负责人马克·摩根称其改变了游戏规则，而且绝对成功。

It only took Doug two days and five interviews to go home after work and pull out the law books.

道格只花了两天时间，接受了五次采访，就下班回家，拿出了法律书籍。

He's a lawyer.

他是一名律师。

He actually owned a beat-up copy of the Immigration and Nationality Act-- the law, hundreds of pages long, that makes up the foundation of the US immigration system.

他实际上拥有一份破旧的《移民和国籍法》——这部长达数百页的法律，构成了美国移民制度的基础。

He grabbed that off his bedroom shelf, along with a few of his other books from law school.

他从卧室的书架上拿起了这本书，还有他在法学院的其他几本书。

He printed out a bunch of court cases and Supreme Court decisions with more cases pulled up on his computer screen.

他打印了一堆法庭案件和最高法院的判决，并在电脑屏幕上显示了更多案件。

In the middle of all of this was his pen and white legal pad.

在这一切的中间是他的笔和白色便笺簿。

As an attorney, he wanted to get his feelings about MPP, how much worse it felt compared to everything else they did, down in writing.

作为一名律师，他想把自己对 MPP 的感受写下来，与他们所做的其他事情相比，这种感觉有多糟糕。

He worked for hours, and he wrote down seven bullet points-- the main ways he thought MPP was illegal.

他工作了几个小时，写下了七个要点——他认为 MPP 非法的主要方式。

Once he saw the list laid out there on the lined white paper, Doug knew what to do.

当道格看到横格白纸上列出的清单时，他知道该怎么做。

The next day, he went to tell his supervisor he wasn't going to do any more MPP interviews.

第二天，他去告诉他的主管，他不会再接受 MPP 采访。

His response was, I know these interviews are hard.

他的回答是，我知道这些采访很困难。

We're all required to do them.

我们都必须这样做。

That's why were trying to spread it out.

这就是为什么我们试图将其传播出去。

It's, you know, on rolling basis, et cetera, et cetera.

你知道，它是滚动的，等等。

And, you know, at that point, there was like this moment where I could have just said, "You're right, I know this sucks," and gone back.

而且，你知道，在那一刻，就像这一刻，我可以说，“你是对的，我知道这很糟糕”，然后就回去了。

And I paused.

我停了下来。

And I told him, you don't understand.

我告诉他，你不明白。

I'm not doing these interviews.

我不会做这些采访。

And he looked at me.

他看着我。

He's like, what do you-- you're not doing these interviews?

他说，你不做这些采访怎么办？

And I was like, no. I was like, I think they're illegal, they're definitely immoral, and I'm not doing them.

我当时想，不。我当时想，我认为他们是非法的，他们绝对是不道德的，但我不会这样做。

His boss was stunned.

他的老板惊呆了。

He didn't really seem to know what to say.

他似乎真的不知道该说什么。

Eventually he told him he was probably going to have to write him up somehow, to start disciplinary proceedings.

最终，他告诉他，他可能不得不以某种方式对他进行记录，以启动纪律处分程序。

Doug went home that night and decided to escalate.

道格当晚回家并决定升级。

He went back to his legal pad.

他回到他的记事簿前。

I essentially wrote a legal memo explaining all of the reasons that I thought it was illegal and why I was refusing to do it.

我基本上写了一份法律备忘录，解释了我认为这是非法的所有原因以及我拒绝这样做的原因。

And then on that Monday, I emailed that to all of the administration in San Francisco and the two supervisors that were involved in the disciplinary proceedings.

然后在那个星期一，我通过电子邮件将其发送给旧金山的所有行政部门以及参与纪律程序的两名主管。

And then, nothing.

然后，什么也没有。

Nothing happened.

什么也没发生。

Instead of sparking some kind of rebellion, or at least forcing a confrontation, it's crickets.

不是引发某种叛乱，或者至少是迫使对抗，而是蟋蟀。

So he took it a step further.

所以他更进一步。

He sent his memo to a senator's office.

他将备忘录发送到参议员办公室。

Then he drafted his goodbye email, attached his memo, and sent it out office-wide to all of San Francisco Asylum, about 80 people, and to a representative of the union for asylum officers across the country.

然后，他起草了告别电子邮件，附上备忘录，并将其发送给整个办公室的旧金山庇护所的所有人员（大约 80 人）以及全国庇护官员工会的代表。

And with that, Doug shut down his work computer and walked out.

说完，道格关掉了工作电脑，走了出去。

He quit.

他退出了。

They make one change, and everyone at the office is like, oh, this is terrible, but we'll figure it out.

他们做出了一项改变，办公室里的每个人都会说，哦，这太糟糕了，但我们会解决的。

And they make another change.

他们还做出了另一个改变。

And you're like, oh, this is terrible.

你会说，哦，这太可怕了。

But I need my job.

但我需要我的工作。

I'm going to do it, even if I don't want to, and I'll complain about it.

即使我不愿意，我也会这么做，而且我会抱怨。

And I'll complain about the work, and I'll complain about the hours.

我会抱怨工作，我会抱怨工作时间。

At the end of the day, I'm going to do it.

归根结底，我会这么做的。

And the more I do it, the easier it is to do.

我做得越多，就越容易做到。

And that is terrifying.

这太可怕了。

I mean, that's how all the awful things in the world have happened.

我的意思是，世界上所有可怕的事情都是这样发生的。

That's how you get so many good people doing really bad things.

这就是为什么这么多好人做坏事的原因。

And that's what's happening, and it's terrifying.

这就是正在发生的事情，这很可怕。

You're, like, literally sending people back to be raped and killed.

你就像是真的把人们送回去被强奸和杀害。

That's what this is.

就是这样。

The three officers I spoke with are not alone.

我采访过的三名警官并不孤单。

A union representing the asylum officers and USCIS employees filed a brief in a lawsuit against the administration, arguing that MPP was illegal.

代表庇护官员和移民局雇员的工会在针对政府的诉讼中提交了一份简报，认为 MPP 是非法的。

And a ton of officers are quitting.

大量官员正在辞职。

I've heard this from a bunch of people in the asylum corps and at Citizenship and Immigration Services, the parent agency.

我从庇护团和上级机构公民及移民服务局的一群人那里听到了这一点。

Several use the word "exodus." And if officers can't quit, they're calling in sick-- anything they can do to avoid MPP interviews.

有些人使用“出埃及记”这个词。如果官员们不能辞职，他们就会请病假——他们可以采取一切措施来避免接受省议员的面谈。

We tried to get some numbers from the government.

我们试图从政府那里获得一些数字。

They wouldn't tell us how many people had left.

他们不肯告诉我们还有多少人离开。

They did say that by the end of the year, they hope to have 771 asylum officers.

他们确实表示，到今年年底，他们希望拥有 771 名庇护官员。

But as of a month ago, they had something like 550, meaning they're roughly 200 people short.

但截至一个月前，他们的人数约为 550 人，这意味着他们大约还缺 200 人。

I tried to get an interview with the acting head of USCIS, Ken Cuccinelli, to talk about all this.

我试图采访美国移民局代理局长肯·库奇内利（Ken Cuccinelli），谈论这一切。

He's since been named Deputy Homeland Security Secretary.

此后他被任命为国土安全部副部长。

He didn't give us one, but I did get one question in.

他没有给我们任何问题，但我确实提出了一个问题。

It was at a press breakfast, so this audio was recorded on my phone.

那是在一次新闻早餐会上，所以这段音频是用我的手机录制的。

All right.

好的。

Molly O'Toole from the Los Angeles Times.

来自《洛杉矶时报》的莫莉·奥图尔。

How do you answer the concerns from some of your asylum officers?

您如何回答一些庇护官员的担忧？

There are concerns that many of these policies being handed down by the Trump administration, particularly targeting asylum, are in fact illegal, that they're being ordered to implement policies that are in direct contradiction with immigration laws that are passed by Congress.

有人担心，特朗普政府颁布的许多政策，特别是针对庇护的政策，实际上是非法的，他们被命令实施与国会通过的移民法直接矛盾的政策。

Well, they're not in direct contradiction, or we wouldn't be utilizing them.

嗯，它们并不直接矛盾，否则我们就不会使用它们。

We have 19,000 people that work with USCIS.

我们有 19,000 名员工与 USCIS 合作。

I don't expect any two of us to completely agree on all of this.

我不希望我们中的任何两个人在所有这些问题上完全达成一致。

But I do expect that the professional employees at USCIS will implement the policies in place.

但我确实希望美国公民及移民服务局的专业员工能够执行现有的政策。

They're part of the--

他们是——

They're part of the executive branch, he said.

他说，他们是行政部门的一部分。

And so long as we're in the position of putting in place what we believe to be legal policies that haven't been found to be otherwise, we fully expect them to implement those faithfully and sincerely and vigorously.

只要我们能够制定我们认为是法律政策且尚未发现其他情况的法律政策，我们就充分期望他们能够忠实、真诚和积极地实施这些政策。

Now we're just shy of MPP's first birthday.

现在我们距离 MPP 的一周岁生日还很遥远。

After a chaotic start, it's thousands returned each week.

在经历了混乱的开始之后，每周都有数千人返回。

It's expanded all the way east across the US border, from California to Texas' Gulf Coast.

它一直向东扩张，穿过美国边境，从加利福尼亚州一直延伸到德克萨斯州的墨西哥湾沿岸。

And it's not just Central Americans being pushed back.

被推迟的不仅仅是中美洲人。

Now it's Cubans, Venezuelans, pregnant women, LGBTQ.

现在是古巴人、委内瑞拉人、孕妇、LGBTQ。

Asylum, at least at the southern border, has essentially ground to a halt.

至少在南部边境，庇护基本上已经停止。

Here's Anne.

这是安妮。

I'll say this.

我就这么说吧。

Like, the administration's been successful.

就像，政府是成功的。

What do you mean?

你是什​​么意思？

Anne They want negative decisions.

安妮 他们想要消极的决定。

They don't want asylum seekers in this country.

他们不希望寻求庇护者来到这个国家。

They don't want people to get positive decisions or determinations for asylum.

他们不希望人们获得积极的庇护决定或决定。

They have felt that the standards for screening interviews were too low, and they wanted those standards changed and those standards raised, and they've succeeded.

他们觉得筛选面试的标准太低，他们希望改变这些标准并提高这些标准，他们成功了。

What do you think the administration's end goal is?

您认为政府的最终目标是什么？

No more people from shit hole countries.

不再有来自垃圾国家的人了。

Anne throws up in the shower almost every day.

安妮几乎每天都会在淋浴时呕吐。

She has recurring nightmares.

她经常做噩梦。

She says she can't focus, can't sleep.

她说她无法集中注意力，无法入睡。

She thinks about the people she's returned to Mexico all the time.

她一直想着那些她回到墨西哥的人。

It's nearly 100.

已经快100了。

But there's one family in particular that she can't stop thinking about-- a father and son.

但有一个家庭让她无法停止思考——一对父子。

Why do you think that case sticks with you?

你为什么认为这个案子一直困扰着你？

The kid was really young.

这孩子确实还小。

What happened to him?

他怎么了？

Did his kid get kidnapped?

他的孩子被绑架了吗？

Did he get murdered?

他被谋杀了吗？

It's happening.

它正在发生。

It's happening a lot.

这种事发生了很多。

What was the-- Anne And then, what's my moral culpability in that?

那是什么——安妮 那么，我在这方面有什么道德罪责呢？

I interviewed that case, and my signature's on that paperwork.

我采访了那个案子，我的签名就在那份文件上。

And that's something now that I live with.

这就是我现在的生活。

So yeah, I feel-- I feel in some ways that this administration's made me a human rights abuser.

所以，是的，我觉得——我在某种程度上觉得本届政府让我成为了一个侵犯人权的人。

The irony of this policy is that under our asylum law, to qualify for asylum, you have to have been harmed because you're part of a particular group, a certain class of people.

这项政策的讽刺之处在于，根据我们的庇护法，要获得庇护资格，你必须受到伤害，因为你属于特定群体、某一阶层的人。

And the way that the asylum officers have implemented MPP, they've created exactly that-- a huge group of people in need of protection, about 60,000 migrants forced by the US back to Mexico to be preyed upon there, as they wait on their request for safety in the US.

庇护官员实施 MPP 的方式，他们创造了一大群需要保护的人，大约 60,000 名移民被美国强迫返回墨西哥，在那里等待他们在美国寻求安全的请求。

It's exactly the sort of situation that our law was supposed to prevent.

这正是我们的法律应该防止的情况。

One asylum officer told me, it's the first time that we've been asked to affirmatively do harm to people.

一位庇护官员告诉我，这是我们第一次被要求积极伤害他人。

You're not just saying, I don't think you're eligible.

你不只是说，我认为你没有资格。

You're literally saying, I believe what you're saying, I think you're in danger.

你的字面意思是，我相信你所说的，我认为你处于危险之中。

Go back to that danger.

回到那个危险。

Molly O'Toole covers immigration for the Los Angeles Times.

莫莉·奥图尔为《洛杉矶时报》报道移民问题。

She wrote a print version of this story, also.

她还写了这个故事的印刷版。

It's at their website.

这是在他们的网站上。

By the way, in the wake of her story, USCIS started a hunt to figure out who talked to her and to us and issued warnings to asylum agents not to speak with the press about what is happening inside the agency.

顺便说一句，在她的故事发生后，移民局开始寻找谁与她和我们交谈，并向庇护代理人发出警告，不要与媒体谈论该机构内部发生的事情。

Coming up, what's it sound like when the cartels get on the phone and bargain with your family for your life?

接下来，当贩毒集团打电话并与你的家人讨价还价以换取你的生命时，听起来会是什么样子？

We have recordings.

我们有录音。

That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.

芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。

It's This American Life.

这就是美国生活。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Today on our program, "The Out Crowd," stories about the people, the tens of thousands of them, who have been pushed into Mexico by the president's Remain in Mexico policy and other policies.

今天，在我们的节目“外流人群”中，讲述了数以万计的人们因总统的“留在墨西哥”政策和其他政策而被迫进入墨西哥的故事。

We're talking about what happens to those people as they wait in Mexico for months.

我们正在谈论那些在墨西哥等待数月的人们会发生什么。

We're rerunning this episode today because it just won the first Pulitzer ever given for audio journalism in the Pulitzer's 100-plus year history.

我们今天重播这一集是因为它刚刚赢得了普利策 100 多年历史上第一个音频新闻奖。

And we have arrived at Act two of our program.

我们已经进入了计划的第二幕。

Act two is about the danger that these asylum seekers face when they're sent back to Mexico.

第二幕讲述这些寻求庇护者被送回墨西哥时面临的危险。

Act Two, "Take the Long Way Home."

第二幕，“走很长的路回家”。

If you had to pick which border city in Mexico is the most dangerous, Nuevo Laredo, right across the border from Laredo, Texas, would be a good contender.

如果你必须选择墨西哥哪个边境城市最危险，那么位于德克萨斯州拉雷多边境对面的新拉雷多将是一个很好的竞争者。

The State Department classifies it as a level four threat.

美国国务院将其列为四级威胁。

That is the same threat level as Iraq and Syria.

这与伊拉克和叙利亚的威胁级别相同。

And a lot of danger there is kidnapping.

绑架的危险很大。

Kidnapping is so prevalent there that one of our producers met men in a migrant shelter who were terrified to go outside.

那里的绑架现象非常普遍，以至于我们的一位制片人在移民庇护所里遇到了一些不敢出门的人。

A young Cuban guy told her, just putting one foot outside the shelter makes him worried.

一位年轻的古巴小伙子告诉她，只要把一只脚走出避难所，他就会感到担心。

A trip of just two minutes, he's looking all around, and he's scared.

短短两分钟的路程，他环顾四周，他感到害怕。

We're interested in these kidnappings because they're so common.

我们对这些绑架很感兴趣，因为它们很常见。

Reporter Emily Green went to Nuevo Laredo in August.

记者艾米丽·格林（Emily Green）8月前往新拉雷多。

She has this story about one kidnapping and what happened to one family, including recordings and details you really never get to hear.

她讲述了一场绑架事件以及一个家庭发生的事情，其中​​包括您从未听过的录音和细节。

This family ended up in Nuevo Laredo because of MPP.

由于 MPP，这个家庭最终来到了新拉雷多。

Here's Emily.

这是艾米丽。

This guy who got kidnapped I met him by chance-- actually, before he got kidnapped.

这个被绑架的家伙我是偶然认识的——实际上是在他被绑架之前。

And he told me how scared he was that he would get kidnapped.

他告诉我他多么害怕自己会被绑架。

I was on a bridge in Nuevo Laredo that connects Mexico to the US.

我在新拉雷多连接墨西哥和美国的一座桥上。

Every day around 1:00 PM that month, the US was sending back migrants from the US side to Mexico under MPP.

当月每天下午 1:00 左右，美国都会根据 MPP 将移民从美国境内遣返墨西哥。

That day there were a hundred of them.

那天，他们有一百个人。

They were easy to spot, they all carried clear plastic bags with a couple of documents in them, and none of them had shoelaces.

他们很容易认出来，都拿着透明的塑料袋，里面装着几份文件，而且没有一个人有鞋带。

US immigration takes shoelaces from anyone they detain.

美国移民局会拿走任何被拘留者的鞋带。

Most of them were men, many of them with their heads down.

他们大多数是男性，其中许多人低着头。

And one pair stands out to me, a father and son in matching polo shirts, both of them sweating in the heat.

其中一对对我来说很引人注目，一对穿着相配的马球衫的父子，他们都在炎热的天气中出汗。

They're chubby, soft faces.

他们的脸庞圆润、柔软。

Dad has his arm around son.

爸爸搂着儿子。

They seem like they'll talk to me.

他们似乎会跟我说话。

The man-- I'll call him David-- quickly tells me a story.

这个人——我称他为大卫——很快给我讲了一个故事。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Emily Green He says he's not a criminal.

[说西班牙语]艾米丽·格林 他说他不是罪犯。

He's a person who's always made a living.

他是一个永远谋生的人。

But he can't live in his country anymore.

但他不能再在自己的国家生活了。

They're from Honduras.

他们来自洪都拉斯。

David was a businessman.

大卫是一位商人。

He ran a little clothing store.

他经营一家小服装店。

The gangs there demand money.

那里的帮派要钱。

They call it a war tax.

他们称之为战争税。

The tax kept getting higher and higher until David's family couldn't pay it anymore.

税收越来越高，直到大卫的家人再也付不起了。

One night, the cartel broke into his house, threatened to rape his daughter, and so they fled.

一天晚上，贩毒集团闯入他的家，威胁要强奸他的女儿，于是他们逃走了。

[SOBBING] Emily Green I've done lots of interviews with people like David, migrants in really difficult situations.

[抽泣]艾米丽·格林（Emily Green） 我采访过很多像大卫这样的人，他们是处境非常困难的移民。

This one felt especially hard.

这个感觉特别难。

I think just seeing a father fall apart in front of his 11-year-old son--

我想只要看到一位父亲在他 11 岁的儿子面前崩溃——

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Emily Green David says he wanted to ask for asylum in the US, but the agents didn't listen to him.

[西班牙语]艾米丽·格林·大卫说他想在美国申请庇护，但特工没有听他的。

They just gave him documents to come back to a court date in December.

他们刚刚给了他文件，要求他在 12 月出庭。

He can't go back to Honduras, he says.

他说他不能回洪都拉斯。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Emily Green I don't have anywhere to go.

[说西班牙语] Emily Green 我无处可去。

I don't have anything.

我什么都没有

I don't have money, he says.

我没有钱，他说。

They say that here, where we're being sent, a lot of people get kidnapped, and I don't know what to do.

他们说我们被送到这里，很多人被绑架，我不知道该怎么办。

We only talked for 10 minutes.

我们只聊了10分钟。

I ended up lending him my phone.

最后我把手机借给了他。

He called his sister in New Jersey and explained what happened-- that he made it to the United States only to be sent back to Mexico.

他打电话给新泽西州的妹妹，解释了发生的事情——他到达美国后又被送回墨西哥。

It was getting dark out, and I'd been told not to stay in Nuevo Laredo past dusk.

天色已经黑了，我被告知不要在新拉雷多呆过黄昏。

I crossed back into the US to go to dinner, probably not a mile away from where I had last seen David.

我回到美国去吃晚饭，距离我最后一次见到大卫的地方可能不到一英里。

And my phone rang.

我的电话响了。

It was David's sister.

那是大卫的妹妹。

I'll call her Laura.

我就叫她劳拉吧。

She had my number because it was my phone he called her from earlier today.

她有我的电话号码，因为他今天早些时候给她打电话就是我的电话。

She was crying so hard I struggled to understand what she was saying.

她哭得很厉害，我很难听懂她在说什么。

She tells me David and his son had been kidnapped just hours after I left them.

她告诉我，大卫和他的儿子在我离开他们几个小时后就被绑架了。

She had gotten a call from a cartel demanding ransom.

她接到卡特尔打来的电话，要求赎金。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Emily Green Laura says that the cartel told her the ransom was $9,000 for David and another $9,000 for his son, so $18,000 total.

[说西班牙语]艾米丽·格林·劳拉 (Emily Green Laura) 说，贩毒集团告诉她，大卫的赎金为 9,000 美元，他儿子的赎金为 9,000 美元，所以总共 18,000 美元。

They put David on the phone briefly so she knew he was alive, and then the kidnappers got on.

他们让大卫短暂地接通了电话，这样她就知道他还活着，然后绑匪就开始了。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Emily Green And I told them, where in the world are we going to get this money?

[西班牙语]艾米丽·格林 我告诉他们，我们从哪里得到这笔钱？

The man on the other end told her she had to get the money.

电话那头的男人告诉她，她必须拿到钱。

He said he'd call back tomorrow.

他说他明天再打电话。

I asked Laura to record the phone calls.

我让劳拉把电话录音。

And she did.

她做到了。

When they called the next day, she put them on speaker and used a relative's phone to shoot video of it.

第二天，当他们打电话时，她打开扬声器，并用亲戚的手机拍摄了视频。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Emily Green They tell her, I need you to deposit the money as soon as possible, viejita.

[说西班牙语] Emily Green 他们告诉她，我需要你尽快存钱，viejita。

Viejita means "old lady." Laura is 38.

维耶吉塔（Viejita）的意思是“老太太”。劳拉今年 38 岁。

She tells them again that she has no money, that she's sick from anxiety.

她再次告诉他们，她没有钱，她因焦虑而生病。

In her conversations with me, Laura is scared, crying.

在与我的谈话中，劳拉很害怕，一直在哭。

But when she talks to the kidnappers, she holds it together.

但当她与绑匪交谈时，她却镇定下来。

She asks if David and her son are OK.

她问大卫和她的儿子是否还好。

The kidnappers tell her, they have food, that they can bathe, for now.

绑匪告诉她，他们现在有食物，可以洗澡。

Each call only lasts a few minutes.

每次通话只持续几分钟。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Emily Green By the third day, the cartel has lowered the price to $5,000 each for David and his son.

[西班牙语]艾米莉·格林 到第三天，卡特尔已将大卫和他儿子的价格降至每人 5,000 美元。

Laura works the night shift at a printing factory in New Jersey, hardly makes $20,000 in a year.

劳拉在新泽西州的一家印刷厂上夜班，一年的收入几乎没有 2 万美元。

Plus, she's a single mom.

另外，她是一位单亲妈妈。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Emily Green In all of these calls, the kidnappers talk super fast-- I'm guessing because they have other ransom calls to make.

[说西班牙语]艾米丽·格林 在所有这些电话中，绑匪的语速都非常快——我猜是因为他们还有其他勒索电话要打。

Kidnapping's a big business, a volume business, with a whole infrastructure.

绑架是一项大生意，一项大宗生意，拥有完整的基础设施。

Kidnapping migrants has been common in Mexico for a long time.

长期以来，绑架移民在墨西哥屡见不鲜。

What's different now is that the US is making it especially easy for the cartels to identify and snatch victims.

现在不同的是，美国让贩毒集团更容易识别和抓捕受害者。

They're sending asylum seekers back in big groups, all at once, same time each day.

他们每天同一时间将大批寻求庇护者一次性遣返。

And they're easy to identify with their plastic bags and missing shoelaces.

而且他们很容易通过塑料袋和丢失的鞋带认出他们。

Homeland Security didn't respond to my request for comment on the kidnapping situation.

国土安全部没有回应我对绑架情况发表评论的请求。

But this week, the acting head of Customs and Border Protection said the US is, quote, "sending a message to the criminal organizations to stop exploiting these migrants." In Nuevo Laredo, the most dangerous part of these asylum seekers' journey is probably the hours right after they've been sent back to Mexico.

但本周，海关和边境保护局代理负责人表示，美国正在“向犯罪组织发出停止剥削这些移民的信息”。在新拉雷多，这些寻求庇护者旅程中最危险的部分可能是他们被送回墨西哥后的几个小时。

After walking across the bridge, they're transported to the Mexican Immigration Office by van.

走过桥后，他们被面包车送往墨西哥移民局。

Outside the office, men in four-door trucks monitor who's coming and going.

在办公室外，四门卡车里的人监视着谁进出。

Locals call them, Los Malos-- the bad guys.

当地人称他们为“Los Malos”——“坏人”。

One migrant told me about getting chased as he walked to a shelter from there.

一位移民告诉我，当他从那里走向避难所时，他遭到了追赶。

But by far, the most dangerous place is a bus station.

但到目前为止，最危险的地方是公交车站。

It's a place they go to escape Nuevo Laredo, but it's a place they end up getting caught.

这是他们逃离新拉雷多的地方，但也是他们最终被抓的地方。

Kidnapping is so routine, the cartels refer to it as passing through the office.

绑架是家常便饭，卡特尔将其称为“穿过办公室”。

On the extortion calls, you can tell it's a well-oiled machine.

在敲诈勒索电话中，你可以看出这是一台运转良好的机器。

It's methodical.

这是有条理的。

They sound like they're negotiating the price of a car.

他们听起来像是在协商汽车的价格。

They do this all the time.

他们一直这样做。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Emily Green Laura turns to everyone she can think of.

[说西班牙语]艾米丽·格林·劳拉转向她能想到的每个人。

She goes to her local police department and to her mayor's office to ask for help.

她前往当地警察局和市长办公室寻求帮助。

They reach out to the Office of Senator Cory Booker.

他们联系了参议员科里·布克的办公室。

But by the time they get back to her, about a week later, it's too late.

但当他们大约一周后回复她时，已经太晚了。

Laura eventually scrapes together money from her mom and sister, but just a fraction of what the cartel is asking for.

劳拉最终从她妈妈和姐姐那里凑到了钱，但这只是贩毒集团要求的一小部分。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Emily Green She tells them, look, I've already pulled together $1,200.

[说西班牙语] Emily Green 她告诉他们，看，我已经筹集了 1,200 美元。

Tell me what we're going to do, and give me time to get the rest.

告诉我我们要做什么，然后给我时间去完成剩下的事情。

The man says he'll confer with his boss.

该男子说他将与他的老板商量。

In the meantime, he says, she should wire the money.

他说，与此同时，她应该把钱汇过去。

Laura asks to talk to her brother, and they put him on.

劳拉要求和她哥哥谈谈，他们就邀请了他。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Laura No, no. No, [SPEAKING SPANISH].

[说西班牙语] 劳拉 不，不。不，[说西班牙语]。

She asked David, how are you, brother?

她问大卫，兄弟，你好吗？

Worried, he says.

担心，他说。

She tells him, don't worry, that she's pulled together some money.

她告诉他，别担心，她已经凑了一些钱。

The next day, the cartels release David and his son.

第二天，贩毒集团释​​放了大卫和他的儿子。

I talked to David on the phone three days after his release.

大卫获释三天后，我与他通了电话。

He's so distressed, it's hard for him to finish a sentence.

他心疼极了，一句话都说不完。

Respira.

呼吸。

Respira.

呼吸。

Respira.

呼吸。

Breathe, I tell him.

呼吸，我告诉他。

I wanted to help him.

我想帮助他。

That's not something a reporter is supposed to say.

这不是记者应该说的话。

But back when they were kidnapped, their lives were in immediate danger.

但当他们被绑架时，他们的生命立即处于危险之中。

And I helped in small ways.

我也在一些小方面提供了帮助。

I connected Laura with an NGO in Mexico City that advocates for migrants.

我给劳拉联系了墨西哥城一个倡导移民权益的非政府组织。

Since David and his son were released, I've suggested safe bus options.

自从大卫和他的儿子被释放后，我建议了安全的巴士选择。

The family, they always knew that I was a reporter doing a story on them.

家人，他们一直都知道我是一名记者，正在报道他们的故事。

But they came to see me as one of the few people they could trust, that they could rely on.

但他们开始将我视为他们可以信任、可以依靠的少数几个人之一。

Laura called me almost every day with updates.

劳拉几乎每天都给我打电话告知最新情况。

She still does.

她仍然这样做。

A few weeks ago, I went to meet David and his family in Monterrey in northern Mexico, where they were holed up.

几周前，我去墨西哥北部的蒙特雷会见大卫和他的家人，他们躲在那里。

They were staying with an acquaintance of Laura's in exchange for grocery money and help with construction.

他们住在劳拉的一个熟人家里，以换取杂货钱和建筑帮助。

David didn't want us interviewing him there.

大卫不想让我们在那里采访他。

He feels his welcome has run out.

他觉得他的欢迎已经结束了。

So we do the interview at our hotel.

所以我们在我们的酒店进行采访。

It's David, his 11-year-old son, and his 19-year-old daughter, who's also been sent back to Mexico under MPP.

这是大卫、他 11 岁的儿子和 19 岁的女儿，他们也被 MPP 遣返回墨西哥。

I'm here with my producer, Lina.

我和我的制片人莉娜在一起。

We figure, we'll talk to David in one room while the kids watch TV in the other.

我们想，我们将在一个房间与大卫交谈，而孩子们在另一个房间看电视。

But the kids sit by their dad on the bed.

但孩子们坐在爸爸旁边的床上。

They won't leave one another's side.

他们不会离开彼此的身边。

I wanted to know what happened when I left him that day on the bridge.

我想知道那天我把他留在桥上时发生了什么。

And what he described were all these details of how the cartel's kidnapping business actually works once you're a victim on the inside-- details that were routine, and also terrifying.

他描述的是一旦你成为内部受害者，卡特尔的绑架业务实际上是如何运作的所有这些细节——这些细节很常见，也很可怕。

So here's what happened.

所以这就是发生的事情。

He said, he and the other hundred people who were sent back to Mexico that day were taken from the bridge to the local immigration office for processing.

他说，他和当天被送回墨西哥的另外一百人被从桥上带到当地移民局办理手续。

After that, he says a man wearing a Mexican immigration officer uniform agreed to take him and his son to the bus station so they could go to a safer city.

之后，他说一名穿着墨西哥移民官员制服的男子同意带他和儿子去公交车站，这样他们就可以去一个更安全的城市。

But as soon as they got to the station, he got a bad feeling.

但刚到车站，他就有一种不好的预感。

When I went in with my son, this guy grabbed me.

当我和儿子一起进去时，这个人抓住了我。

It was a tall guy, strong, full of tattoos.

那是一个身材高大、强壮、满身纹身的家伙。

So he grabbed me and he said, I want to talk to you.

所以他抓住了我，说，我想和你谈谈。

And I said, I have nothing to talk to you about.

我说，我没什么可跟你谈的。

And he said, you're going to get into that car, and we're going to ask you some questions.

他说，你要上那辆车，我们会问你一些问题。

And I said, no. And he said, you can get into the car the easy way or the hard way.

我说，不。他说，你可以通过简单的方式或困难的方式进入汽车。

He says at least a dozen migrants also arrived at the bus station that night.

他说，当晚至少有十几名移民也抵达了公交车站。

And the cartel hustled them into different trucks.

卡特尔将他们塞进不同的卡车。

All the trucks were brand new, he says.

他说，所有卡车都是全新的。

He remembers that the one he got into was a gray Nissan, and there were four or five other migrants in there with him.

他记得他坐的是一辆灰色尼桑车，车里还有四五个移民。

He says the immigration officer who drove him to the bus station sat in his car and watched them all being carted off.

他说，开车送他去公交车站的移民官员坐在车里，看着他们全部被运走。

We can't confirm this, but there is a long history of law enforcement and the cartels working hand-in-hand.

我们无法证实这一点，但执法部门和卡特尔携手合作有着悠久的历史。

For example, in 2011, seven top officials at Mexico's immigration agency were fired amid allegations that the agency was involved in the kidnapping of migrants.

例如，2011年，墨西哥移民机构的七名高级官员因涉嫌绑架移民而被解雇。

And it squares with what his sister in New Jersey told me.

这与他在新泽西的姐姐告诉我的相符。

She wired money to that immigration officer for David's bus ticket.

她向那位移民官员电汇了钱，购买了大卫的公交车票。

And when she got the ransom call, the kidnappers told her to wire the money to that same account-- the one the immigration officer used.

当她接到赎金电话时，绑匪告诉她将钱汇入移民官员使用的同一个账户。

She said something like, isn't that the immigration officer's account?

她说，这不是移民官的账户吗？

And they hung up.

然后他们就挂断了电话。

I asked the Mexican immigration agency to respond.

我要求墨西哥移民局做出回应。

They told me they have no knowledge of recent complaints of immigration officers turning migrants over to the cartels.

他们告诉我，他们不知道最近移民官员将移民交给卡特尔的投诉。

In the truck, David held onto his son.

在卡车上，大卫抱着他的儿子。

The kidnappers didn't speak.

绑匪没有说话。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter The guy just told us to keep our heads down, to stop looking at the sides.

[说西班牙语] 翻译 那家伙只是告诉我们要低着头，不要看侧面。

And the guy who was driving us was keeping an eye on us, and he was making sure we were not chatting.

开车送我们的那个人一直注视着我们，他确保我们没有聊天。

They had the windows all rolled up.

他们把车窗都摇上了。

The truck drove around for a while, but David suspects they were just going in circles, that they didn't actually travel very far.

卡车绕了一会儿，但大卫怀疑他们只是在兜圈子，实际上并没有行驶很远。

They pulled up to a normal-looking house with a big gate.

他们把车停在一座看上去很普通、有一扇大门的房子前。

Inside, the kidnappers used their cell phone to take pictures of David, his son, and the rest.

在里面，绑匪用手机给大卫、他的儿子和其他人拍照。

They interrogated David about where he's from, his line of work, how he got to the US, and, most importantly, what family members he has there.

他们审问大卫来自哪里、从事什么工作、如何到达美国，以及最重要的是，他在那里有哪些家庭成员。

It was like patient intake at a health clinic, except for by a cartel.

这就像在诊所接收病人一样，除了卡特尔之外。

We talk about the cartels as organized crime, but I never imagined the bookkeeping.

我们将卡特尔视为有组织犯罪，但我从未想象过簿记。

They keep records and photos of the migrants they kidnap, and also who they release.

他们保存被绑架的移民以及被释放的移民的记录和照片。

David says that there were more than 20 migrants at the house.

大卫说，房子里有 20 多名移民。

The men and women slept in separate rooms.

男人和女人睡在不同的房间。

During the day, the kidnappers hit any of the men who tried to look at the women.

白天，绑匪会袭击任何试图看女人的男人。

The room David and his son slept in had one mattress.

大卫和他儿子睡觉的房间里有一张床垫。

Everyone else slept on the floor.

其他人都睡在地板上。

At night, David would lay on the ground, holding his son.

晚上，大卫会抱着儿子躺在地上。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter I would lay down with him in a corner, and I would hug my son.

[说西班牙语] 翻译 我会和他一起躺在角落里，然后拥抱我的儿子。

They couldn't see you crying, but my tears were almost, like, falling out.

他们看不到你哭，但我的眼泪几乎要掉下来。

What hurt me the most, Emily, was that when this guy arrived, the boss, he would always tell me that my son's organs were good for selling, that he was in a good age that he was only 11 years old.

最让我伤心的是，艾米丽，当这个家伙到来的时候，老板，他总是告诉我，我儿子的器官很好卖，他的年龄很好，他只有11岁。

And my son once heard the guy saying that his kidneys, that his organs, were good for selling.

我儿子曾经听那个人说他的肾脏、他的器官很适合卖。

And he was almost crying.

他几乎要哭了。

And I told him, don't cry.

我告诉他，别哭。

But I was desperate.

但我很绝望。

As David tells me this story, his two kids are still sitting on the bed beside him.

当大卫告诉我这个故事时，他的两个孩子仍然坐在他旁边的床上。

Neither of them is looking at anything in particular.

他们俩都没有特别关注任何事情。

They're just sitting there, blankly.

他们只是呆呆地坐在那里。

David also seems devoid of emotion.

大卫似乎也缺乏感情。

He doesn't at all resemble the David from a few weeks ago, the one I talked to right after his release.

他一点也不像几周前的大卫，也就是他获释后我与之交谈的那个大卫。

Now his affect is completely flat.

现在他的情绪完全平淡了。

On the fourth day of his kidnapping, one of the bosses woke David up and told him they'd reached a deal with his sister.

在大卫被绑架的第四天，其中一位老板叫醒了大卫，并告诉他他们已经与他的妹妹达成了协议。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter And he said to me, get up with your son, fat guy, because today I'm going to release you guys because your sister already paid, made a deposit.

[说西班牙语] 翻译 他对我说，和你儿子一起起来，胖子，因为今天我要释放你们了，因为你姐姐已经付了钱，交了押金。

The man told David if he talked to anyone-- police, reporters-- the cartel would come for him, take his son, and kill David.

该男子告诉大卫，如果他与任何人——警察、记者——交谈，贩毒集团就会来抓他，带走他的儿子，并杀死大卫。

The same man who kidnapped them in the first place drove them back to the bus station and bought them each a ticket.

最初绑架他们的那个人开车送他们回公交车站，并给他们每人买了一张车票。

David doesn't know what happened to the dozens of other people in the house.

大卫不知道房子里的其他几十个人发生了什么事。

Most migrants who are kidnapped and released, the cartel gives them a key word.

大多数被绑架又被释放的移民，卡特尔都会给他们一个关键词。

It's like a passcode that indicates the migrant has paid off the cartel so they aren't kidnapped again.

这就像一个密码，表明移民已经付清了卡特尔的钱，这样他们就不会再次被绑架。

But David isn't given one, maybe because he hasn't paid a high enough ransom.

但大卫没有得到赎金，可能是因为他没有支付足够高的赎金。

When we met David in Monterrey, he didn't know what he was going to do.

当我们在蒙特雷见到大卫时，他不知道自己要做什么。

On day one of the kidnapping, the cartel had taken David and his son's immigration paperwork, and they didn't give it back.

在绑架的第一天，贩毒集团拿走了大卫和他儿子的移民文件，但他们没有归还。

Without that paperwork, he doesn't even know which day he's supposed to show up in court.

如果没有这些文件，他甚至不知道自己应该哪一天出庭。

But even if he could figure it out, he told us, he's too scared to return to Nuevo Laredo.

但即使他能弄清楚，他告诉我们，他也太害怕了，不敢返回新拉雷多。

Under MPP, he'd have to pass through the same port of entry to get to his hearing.

根据MPP，他必须通过同一入境口岸才能参加听证会。

What if we get kidnapped again?

如果我们再次被绑架怎么办？

He asks.

他问道。

Last week, I got a phone call from David.

上周，我接到大卫的电话。

The family they've been staying with in Monterrey wants him gone, and he's lost hope in the asylum process.

他们住在蒙特雷的家人希望他离开，他对庇护程序失去了希望。

He thinks they won't be listened to, that the hearing process is a lie.

他认为他们的意见不会被听取，听证会过程是一个谎言。

And in fact, he's right about how his case is likely to come out.

事实上，他对案件可能结果的判断是正确的。

Under this administration, it's virtually impossible to gain asylum based on gang violence.

在本届政府的领导下，几乎不可能因帮派暴力而获得庇护。

So David's decided to take his family back to Honduras, the country they tried escaping in the first place.

因此，大卫决定将家人带回洪都拉斯，这是他们最初试图逃离的国家。

According to Homeland Security's own statistics, thousands of other families are making the same choice.

根据国土安全部自己的统计，还有数千个其他家庭也在做出同样的选择。

Emily Green.

艾米丽·格林。

She also reported on David for vice.com.

她还为 Vice.com 报道了大卫。

A little update since we first ran this story.

自我们第一次报道这个故事以来有一些更新。

David returned to Honduras, and then his family scraped together enough money to send him and his son to Spain, where a cousin lives.

大卫回到洪都拉斯，然后他的家人凑了足够的钱把他和儿子送到西班牙，那里有一个表弟。

They got to Spain just before the coronavirus hit.

他们在冠状病毒爆发前到达西班牙。

They do not venture outside.

他们不会冒险外出。

So one last thing before we end today's program.

在我们结束今天的节目之前还有最后一件事。

When we were in the tent camp in Matamoros, I learned that the way that the Remain in Mexico policy was working back then, it applied to adults.

当我们在马塔莫罗斯的帐篷营地时，我了解到留在墨西哥政策当时的运作方式适用于成年人。

But if a kid would show up at the border without an adult, the border agents would have to let them into the United States.

但如果一个孩子在没有成人陪伴的情况下出现在边境，边境人员将不得不让他们进入美国。

Darwin, that 9-year-old who's the king of the camp-- you remember him, from the beginning of the show-- he and his mom told Aviva back in November that they had talked about this, about whether she should send him over alone, to fend for himself.

达尔文，那个 9 岁的孩子，他是营地之王——你从节目一开始就记得他——他和他的妈妈早在 11 月份就告诉 Aviva，他们已经讨论过这个问题，关于她是否应该把他单独送过去，让他自己照顾自己。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Ira Glass She told him, look, as a mom, it's not that she doesn't love him.

[西班牙语] Ira Glass 她告诉他，听着，作为一个母亲，她并不是不爱他。

But if there's no way for them to go together, she'll send him alone.

但如果他们没办法一起去，她就派他一个人去。

But he didn't want that.

但他不想这样。

No. Porque-- [SPANISH].

编号 Porque——[西班牙语]。

Ira Glass No. Because of the fear that I have.

Ira Glass 不。因为我有恐惧。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Ira Glass Honestly, you won't lose me, she says.

[说西班牙语] Ira Glass 说实话，你不会失去我，她说。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Ira Glass My fear is that I'll lose my mom.

[西班牙语] Ira Glass 我担心我会失去我的妈妈。

The kids there don't see their moms.

那里的孩子们看不到他们的妈妈。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Elizabeth [SPEAKING SPANISH]

[说西班牙语] 伊丽莎白 [说西班牙语]

I've never been separated from her, she says.

“我从来没有和她分开过，”她说。

And she jumps in.

她跳了进去。

Our love is inseparable.

我们的爱是密不可分的。

That was November.

那是十一月。

But just a few weeks after that, his mom decided to send him over, because the cartels had noticed him in the camp and tried to recruit him.

但就在几周后，他的妈妈决定把他送过去，因为贩毒集团在营地里注意到了他，并试图招募他。

And they threatened him if he didn't sign up.

如果他不报名，他们就会威胁他。

Aviva talked to him this week about what it was like to leave his mom and walk across the bridge to America without her.

本周，Aviva 向他讲述了离开妈妈，独自走过大桥去美国的感觉。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Ira Glass He was really sad.

[说西班牙语] Ira Glass 他真的很难过。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Ira Glass It broke my soul to leave her.

[西班牙语] Ira Glass 离开她让我心碎。

Once he made it to America, Darwin was put into a shelter and then sent to live with a foster family in Michigan.

到达美国后，达尔文被安置在收容所，然后被送往密歇根州的一个寄养家庭生活。

They treated him well, he says, like he was their own kid.

他说，他们对他很好，就像他是他们自己的孩子一样。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Ira Glass The first day there I got a hamburger.

[说西班牙语] Ira Glass 在那里的第一天我得到了一个汉堡包。

He lived with a second foster family.

他与第二个寄养家庭住在一起。

And then, after three months, he finally got what his mom was hoping for when she sent him across.

三个月后，他终于得到了妈妈送他过来时所希望的。

He's living with his aunt, has his own room, lives with a cousin who's close to his age.

他和姨妈住在一起，有自己的房间，和一个和他年纪相仿的表弟住在一起。

He told Aviva that for his 10th birthday they had a party and baked him a big tres leches cake.

他告诉 Aviva，他们为他 10 岁生日举办了一场派对，并为他烤了一个大特雷斯莱切斯蛋糕。

Y Darwin, [SPANISH].

Y 达尔文，[西班牙语]。

Ira Glass Darwin, are you happy to have come to the United States?

艾拉·格拉斯·达尔文，你来到美国感到高兴吗？

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Ira Glass Yeah, because I'm learning English, little by little.

[说西班牙语] Ira Glass 是的，因为我正在一点一点地学习英语。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Ira Glass You wouldn't have rather stayed with your mom?

[说西班牙语] Ira Glass 你不愿意和你妈妈呆在一起吗？

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Ira Glass I would have come.

[说西班牙语] Ira Glass 我会来的。

No, no, no. I would have stayed with my mom.

不，不，不。我会和妈妈住在一起。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Ira Glass Because she's all I have.

[说西班牙语] Ira Glass 因为她是我的全部。

[MUSIC PLAYING - "THESE ARE MY PEOPLE" BY JOHNNY CASH]

[音乐播放 - 约翰尼·卡什的《这些是我的人民》]

Well, our program was produced today by Nadia Reiman with help from Aviva DeKornfeld.

嗯，我们今天的节目是由 Nadia Reiman 在 Aviva DeKornfeld 的帮助下制作的。

The people who put together today's show includes Elna Baker, Emanuele Berry, Susan Burton, Ben Calhoun, Zoe Chace, Dana Chivvis, Sean Cole, Whitney Dangerfield, Damien Graef, Michelle Harris, Jessica Lussenhop, Miki Meek, Lina Misitzis, Stowe Nelson, Katherine Rae Mondo, Ben Phelan, Alissa Shipp, Lilly Sullivan, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, and Nancy Updike.

今天节目的制作人包括 Elna Baker、Emanuele Berry、Susan Burton、Ben Calhoun、Zoe Chace、Dana Chivvis、Sean Cole、Whitney Dangerfield、Damien Graef、Michelle Harris、Jessica Lussenhop、Miki Meek、Lina Misitzis、Stowe Nelson、Katherine Rae Mondo、Ben Phelan、Alissa Shipp、Lilly Sullivan、Christopher斯维塔拉、马特·蒂尔尼和南希·厄普代克。

Additional production on this rerun by Noor Gill.

诺尔·吉尔 (Noor Gill) 为本次重播增加了额外制作。

Our managing editor for today's show is Diane Wu.

我们今天节目的总编辑是 Diane Wu。

Our executive editor is David Kestenbaum.

我们的执行编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。

Interpreters for today's show were Gabriela Muñoz, Catalina Maria Johnson, Daniel Sherr, and Mario Michelena.

今天节目的口译员包括 Gabriela Muñoz、Catalina Maria Johnson、Daniel Sherr 和 Mario Michelena。

Our fixer in Matamoros was journalist Vero Cardenas.

我们在马塔莫罗斯的调解人是记者维罗·卡德纳斯。

The voices of the asylum officers in the first story of the show were performed by Maggie Siff and Betty Gilpin.

该剧第一个故事中庇护官员的声音由玛吉·西夫和贝蒂·吉尔平配音。

By the way, you can see Maggie Siff on Billions and Betty Gilpin on the Netflix show, GLOW.

顺便说一句，您可以在《Billions》中看到 Maggie Siff，在 Netflix 节目《GLOW》中看到 Betty Gilpin。

Special thanks today to Harrison Nesbitt and Amy Kaufman, Kimbrell Kelly, Reynaldo Leanos, Jr., Kennji Kizuka, Christopher Turpin, William Dobson, Didrik Schanche, Russell D Lewis, Clay Boggs, Maureen Meyer, Nick Miriello, and Woodson Martin.

今天特别感谢 Harrison Nesbitt 和 Amy Kaufman、Kimbrell Kelly、Reynaldo Leanos, Jr.、Kennji Kizuka、Christopher Turpin、William Dobson、Didrik Schanche、Russell D Lewis、Clay Boggs、Maureen Meyer、Nick Miriello 和 Woodson Martin。

Our website, thisamericanlife.org.

我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。

This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.

《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。

Thans, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.

一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。

You know, he recently cooked dinner for some friends who hate onions and anything in the onion family.

你知道，他最近为一些讨厌洋葱和洋葱家族任何东西的朋友做了晚餐。

And they wanted to keep the leak to a minimum.

他们希望将泄漏保持在最低限度。

I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life.

我是艾拉·格拉斯，下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。

This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.

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