694: Get Back to Where You Once Belonged - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #694 | January 15, 2021 694: Get Back to Where You Once Belonged Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 694 集 | 2021 年 1 月 15 日 694：回到你曾经所属的地方 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
序言：序言 来自 WBEZ 芝加哥的 Ira Glass，这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
All right, you're turning your laptop so we can both look?
好吧，你要转动你的笔记本电脑以便我们俩都能看一下？
Turning the laptop, so that we can both watch this.
转动笔记本电脑，以便我们都可以观看。
That's my co-worker, Emanuele Berry, standing up to show me a clip from an old film on her computer.
那是我的同事埃马努埃莱·贝里（Emanuele Berry）站起来给我看她电脑上一部老电影的剪辑。
This is something that she's shown lots of people since she first saw it.
自从她第一次看到这个东西以来，她已经向很多人展示过它。
It's from an old Soviet movie from 1936.
这是1936年的一部苏联老电影。
OK, so this is a film called, The Circus.
好的，这部电影叫《马戏团》。
It's kind of like the Russian version of It's a Wonderful Life.
这有点像俄罗斯版的《生活多美好》。
It's that classic black and white movie that comes on TV all the time, that's heartwarming, that everybody knows.
这是电视上经常出现的经典黑白电影，非常温馨，每个人都知道。
But then when I saw what was happening, I was like, what is happening?
但当我看到发生的事情时，我想，发生了什么事？
Um, yeah, I'm going to hit Play.
嗯，是的，我要点击“播放”。
So there's this beautiful blonde woman.
于是就有了这个美丽的金发女郎。
She's singing in the center of the circus tent.
她在马戏团帐篷中央唱歌。
She's an American who has come to Russia to perform.
她是一位来俄罗斯表演的美国人。
And then this man just starts screaming, stop the show, stop the show.
然后这个男人开始尖叫，停止表演，停止表演。
[NON-ENGLISH] Emanuele Berry So let me explain who he is.
[非英语] Emanuele Berry 让我解释一下他是谁。
He's German.
他是德国人。
To be honest, he looks a little like Hitler-- the mustache, or whatever.
老实说，他看起来有点像希特勒——胡子，或者其他什么。
Oh, and it's 1936, so Hitler's on the rise.
哦，现在是 1936 年，希特勒正在崛起。
Yes.
是的。
And he's in love with this American circus star, but she's rejected him.
他爱上了这位美国马戏明星，但她拒绝了他。
And so to get revenge, he is going to reveal her secret to the world, the secret that she's been keeping throughout the entire film.
为了报仇，他要向全世界揭露她的秘密，这个秘密是她在整部电影中一直保守的秘密。
And then he brings out this Black baby.
然后他带出了这个黑人婴儿。
[NON-ENGLISH] Ira Glass Then the baby's, like, a toddler size.
[非英语] Ira Glass 然后婴儿的大小，就像幼儿的大小。
Yeah, maybe two.
是的，也许两个。
And then the German, he runs up the stairs, and he holds the baby up, almost like Simba.
然后是德国人，他跑上楼梯，抱起婴儿，就像辛巴一样。
And he starts shaking the baby and screaming, she slept with a Negro.
他开始摇晃婴儿并尖叫，她和一个黑人睡了。
[NON-ENGLISH] Emanuele Berry She gave birth to a Black child.
[非英语] Emanuele Berry 她生下了一个黑人孩子。
Now, he's shaking this child over and over again.
现在，他一遍又一遍地摇晃这个孩子。
He's like, a Black child, a Black child.
他就像一个黑人孩子，一个黑人孩子。
And then this guy comes up to him, this Russian guy in the audience.
然后这个人向他走来，观众席上的俄罗斯人。
And he's like, what's the problem?
他说，有什么问题吗？
And the German guy says, it's a Black child.
德国人说，这是一个黑人孩子。
A white woman gave birth to a Black child.
一名白人妇女生下了一名黑人孩子。
And while the Russian guy just literally shrugged his shoulders.
而俄罗斯人只是耸了耸肩。
Yeah, he shrugged his shoulders.
是的，他耸了耸肩。
And he says, so what?
他说，那又怎样？
[NON-ENGLISH] Emanuele Berry And the German guy goes off on this speech and puts the baby down.
[非英语] Emanuele Berry 这个德国人在演讲中把孩子放下了。
And the toddler, he just sort of walks off.
而那个蹒跚学步的孩子，他就走开了。
And people in the audience, they sweep the baby up in their arms.
而观众席上的人们，纷纷将婴儿抱了起来。
Yeah.
是的。
And so they're passing this Black kid around, all of these white Russian folks.
所以他们把这个黑人孩子传递给所有这些俄罗斯白人。
Yeah.
是的。
He's like, why are you laughing?
他说，你为什么笑？
Why is this funny?
为什么这很有趣？
Remember, it's 1936.
请记住，那是 1936 年。
In the US, we're more than 30 years before interracial marriage is legal everywhere.
在美国，跨种族婚姻在各地合法化已经过去了 30 多年。
I mean, it's Jim Crow.
我的意思是，这是吉姆·克劳。
Black people are still being lynched.
黑人仍然被私刑处死。
And to see this scene where this guy is being told, by all these white people, mind you, you're crazy, this is no big deal, I'm like, what is happening here?
看到这个场景，所有这些白人告诉这个家伙，请注意，你疯了，这没什么大不了的，我想，这里发生了什么？
And as I started to do more research, I learned that this was part of Soviet propaganda for decades-- this message, America is racist, WE are not.
当我开始做更多的研究时，我了解到这是苏联几十年来宣传的一部分——这个信息是，美国是种族主义者，我们不是。
In the 1920s and 1930s, African-Americans, they actually moved to the Soviet Union because it was promising a better life.
在 20 年代和 1930 年代，非裔美国人实际上搬到了苏联，因为那里承诺过上更好的生活。
The boy in the film, that Black baby, is actually the son of an African-American who moved to the Soviet Union in the 1930s.
影片中的男孩，即黑人婴儿，实际上是 20 世纪 30 年代移居苏联的非裔美国人的儿子。
Wow.
哇。
Emanuele Berry And I haven't gotten to the last bit of the scene, which is actually my favorite part of the whole thing.
埃马努埃莱·贝里（Emanuele Berry）我还没有到达场景的最后一点，这实际上是整件事中我最喜欢的部分。
So this Russian woman is cradling the baby, rocking it back and forth.
这位俄罗斯妇女正抱着孩子，来回摇晃。
And then she starts singing to him.
然后她开始给他唱歌。
Mr. Dreams stepping soft, maketh he no noise.
梦想先生脚步轻柔，没有发出任何声音。
Yeah.
是的。
So she's totally putting this baby to sleep.
所以她完全让这个孩子入睡。
Yeah, they're putting the baby to sleep.
是的，他们正在哄孩子睡觉。
Yeah.
是的。
And then she passes the baby to this next person.
然后她把孩子传给下一个人。
And it just becomes this thing where they're embracing this child, one from the next, rocking it back and forth and singing to it.
事情就变成了这样，他们拥抱这个孩子，一个接一个，前后摇晃它，给它唱歌。
The other thing that's happening in the scene is that they're all singing in different languages.
场景中发生的另一件事是他们都用不同的语言唱歌。
The Soviet Union at this time, there are all these different ethnic groups.
此时的苏联，都有这些不同的民族。
And then there they are, all embracing this Black baby.
然后他们就在那里，拥抱着这个黑人婴儿。
When I'm watching this Black baby being embraced, I wonder, was it true?
当我看着这个黑人婴儿被拥抱时，我想知道这是真的吗？
Would Black people really be embraced like that?
黑人真的会受到这样的拥抱吗？
And for the--
而对于——
In the Soviet Union?
在苏联？
Emanuele Berry In the Soviet Union.
埃马努埃莱·贝里在苏联。
And for the African-Americans who went over there and left to escape racism, did they somehow actually escape racism?
对于那些为了逃避种族主义而前往那里并离开的非裔美国人来说，他们是否真的逃避了种族主义？
Because that's a question that I think about a lot.
因为这是一个我经常思考的问题。
Can I go somewhere in the world and escape racism?
我可以去世界某个地方逃避种族主义吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Emanuele Berry I had a year or two where I really thought about this a lot.
Emanuele Berry 我有一两年的时间认真思考了这个问题。
I was working as a journalist in Ferguson, covering months of protests and a community-- really, I was covering a community that was in crisis after the shooting death of Michael Brown.
我当时在弗格森担任记者，报道了几个月的抗议活动和一个社区——实际上，我报道的是一个在迈克尔·布朗被枪杀后陷入危机的社区。
And I just had this experience where I felt like I'd just seen some of the worst parts of American racism, from watching people threaten other people because of the color of their skin, to just looking day after day at the social inequalities that exist in St. Louis and the structural things, like redlining.
我刚刚经历过这种经历，感觉自己刚刚看到了美国种族主义中最严重的部分，从看到人们因为肤色而威胁他人，到日复一日地关注圣路易斯存在的社会不平等和结构性事物，比如红线。
And it was kind of hopeless.
这有点绝望。
I really felt kind of hopeless about it, at least at the time.
我真的对此感到有点绝望，至少在当时是这样。
And I was a little bit like, I think I just have to leave here.
我有点想，我想我必须离开这里。
I used to almost play this game as a coping mechanism where I would think about where in the world can I go?
我曾经几乎把这个游戏当作一种应对机制，我会思考我到底能去哪里？
I would talk to my friends about Ghana, or Central America, or places in the Caribbean.
我会和我的朋友谈论加纳、中美洲或加勒比地区的地方。
I'm like, do you think it's better there?
我想，你觉得那里更好吗？
Would it be better there to be a Black person there?
那里有一个黑人会更好吗？
And so seeing this film made you wonder about Russia and, did it work out for the Black Americans who moved there?
因此，观看这部电影会让您对俄罗斯产生疑问，这对于移居到那里的美国黑人来说是否有效？
I don't necessarily think that Russia is a better place to live as a Black person.
我不一定认为俄罗斯是黑人更适合居住的地方。
But for those people who did move there in the 1930s, and their kids, and their grandkids, what role did race end up playing in their lives?
但对于那些在 20 世纪 30 年代搬到那里的人以及他们的孩子和孙子们来说，种族最终在他们的生活中扮演了什么角色？
How did it work out for them?
他们的结果如何？
That's actually the thing that we're going to be talking about in general in today's program.
这实际上就是我们今天的节目中要普遍讨论的事情。
We have stories of people who decide I'm going to go somewhere, I'm going to move there, I'm going to try to fit in.
我们有这样的故事：人们决定我要去某个地方，我要搬到那里，我要努力融入其中。
And we see what happens.
我们看看会发生什么。
And for Act One, an act we are calling Black in the USSR--
对于第一幕，我们在苏联称之为黑色的表演——
Aw, that's cheesy.
噢，那很俗气。
Ira Glass You came up with that name.
艾拉·格拉斯 这个名字是你想出来的。
But it's good.
但这很好。
[LAUGHS] Anyway, for that act, Emanuele, you looked for descendants of those African-American expats in Russia, and just explain who you found.
[笑]无论如何，对于这一行为，埃马努埃莱，你寻找了那些在俄罗斯的非裔美国人的后裔，然后解释一下你找到了谁。
OK.
好的。
So the woman that I found, her name is Yelena Khanga.
我找到的那个女人的名字叫叶莲娜·坎加。
And she wrote this book called Soul to Soul.
她写了这本书叫《灵魂对灵魂》。
She's a Black Russian, born and raised there.
她是一名俄罗斯黑人，在那里出生和长大。
And I don't know, I sort of felt a connection to her the more I read about her, because she's a college athlete, like I was.
我不知道，随着我对她的了解越多，我就感觉到了与她的联系，因为她是一名大学运动员，就像我一样。
She's a journalist, like I am.
她和我一样是一名记者。
Her grandfather is from the same county in Mississippi that my grandmother is from.
她的祖父和我的祖母来自密西西比州的同一个县。
Wow.
哇。
Emanuele Berry And I don't know, I sort of just felt connected, in a way.
埃马努埃莱·贝里（Emanuele Berry）我不知道，在某种程度上，我只是感觉有联系。
How did you find me?
你是怎么找到我的？
Emanuele Berry Like, originally?
埃马努埃莱·贝里 原来是这样？
Oh, you read the book, OK.
哦，你读过书，好吧。
Emanuele Berry I read the book, yeah.
埃马努埃莱·贝里（Emanuele Berry）我读过这本书，是的。
So like I said, Yelena is a journalist.
正如我所说，叶莲娜是一名记者。
She had a successful talk show in Moscow.
她在莫斯科举办了一场成功的脱口秀。
They call her the Russian Oprah, which is almost definitely because she's Black and had a talk show.
他们称她为俄罗斯奥普拉，这几乎肯定是因为她是黑人并且有脱口秀节目。
It was her grandparents who moved to Russia back in the 1930s.
她的祖父母在 20 世纪 30 年代移居俄罗斯。
They had a leftist New York version of a rom-com meet-cute.
他们有一个纽约左派版本的浪漫喜剧见面会。
Her grandmother, Bertha, was a Polish Jew who'd been arrested at a women's rights demonstration.
她的祖母伯莎是一名波兰犹太人，在一次女权示威活动中被捕。
Her grandfather, Oliver Golden, was Black and had been arrested down the street at a human rights demonstration.
她的祖父奥利弗·戈尔登（Oliver Golden）是黑人，在街上的一次人权示威中被捕。
And they met at the jail.
他们在监狱里见面了。
And in the morning, the rabbi came to bail my grandmother out.
早上，拉比来保释我的祖母。
And my grandmother said, oh, wonderful.
我祖母说，哦，太棒了。
Could you please bail me out together with my new friend, Oliver Golden.
你能和我的新朋友奥利弗·戈尔登一起保释我吗？
The rabbi, her father, saw that Oliver was Black.
她的父亲拉比看到奥利弗是黑人。
And her father looked at her and said, well, you're staying in jail with your new friend, and left them there.
她父亲看着她说，好吧，你和你的新朋友一起待在监狱里，然后就把他们留在那里了。
And that's how their love story began.
他们的爱情故事就这样开始了。
[CHUCKLES] But it worked.
[笑]但它有效。
Emanuele Berry The couple didn't see a future for themselves in America, so they decided to go to the Soviet Union.
Emanuele Berry 这对夫妇在美国看不到自己的未来，所以他们决定去苏联。
Oliver had visited before, and they wanted to help build Lenin's great new society, one that promised no racism.
奥利弗以前来过，他们想帮助建立列宁伟大的新社会，一个承诺没有种族主义的社会。
Oliver and Bertha settled in Uzbekistan.
奥利弗和伯莎在乌兹别克斯坦定居。
My grandfather thought there would be some kind of a kinship between African-Americans and dark-skinned Uzbek people.
我的祖父认为非洲裔美国人和黑皮肤的乌兹别克人之间存在某种亲属关系。
That's why he chose to go there.
这就是他选择去那里的原因。
And he worked as an expert in cotton.
他是一位棉花专家。
Yes, her grandfather left the American South and traveled halfway around the world to work in cotton.
是的，她的祖父离开了美国南部，穿越了半个地球，从事棉花工作。
He developed a new breed of cotton that would work for Uzbekistan's short growing season.
他开发了一种适合乌兹别克斯坦短暂生长季节的新棉花品种。
And life was good.
生活是美好的。
They made good money, had a nice apartment, a nanny for when their daughter, Lily, was born in 1934.
他们赚了很多钱，有一套漂亮的公寓，1934 年他们的女儿莉莉出生时还请了保姆。
Oliver wanted her to have everything he thought white kids got in the United States, so Lily had language tutors, music and tennis lessons.
奥利弗希望她能拥有他认为白人孩子在美国能得到的一切，所以莉莉接受了语言辅导、音乐和网球课程。
But their lives got harder after they became full Soviet citizens and lost their foreigner status.
但在成为正式的苏联公民并失去外国人身份后，他们的生活变得更加艰难。
And after Stalin began to solidify his power, they started to live like everybody else.
当斯大林开始巩固他的权力后，他们开始像其他人一样生活。
Oliver died in 1940.
奥利弗于 1940 年去世。
Lily grew up and went to college in Moscow.
莉莉长大并在莫斯科上大学。
She married a politician from Zanzibar, Yelena's dad.
她嫁给了叶莲娜的父亲、桑给巴尔的一位政客。
He died shortly after Yelena's birth, so the only consistent Black presence in her life was her mom.
叶莲娜出生后不久，他就去世了，所以她生命中唯一始终如一的黑人就是她的母亲。
The neighborhood she grew up in-- all white.
她长大的社区全是白人。
From a very young age, being Black meant constantly explaining herself to the world.
从很小的时候起，成为黑人就意味着不断向世界解释自己。
My best friend was Sasha.
我最好的朋友是萨莎。
He was a neighbor.
他是邻居。
And since my childhood, I thought he was my brother, because we were together all the time.
从我小时候起，我就认为他是我的兄弟，因为我们一直在一起。
So in the street when somebody would ask me, why are you Black, he would say, number one, she's my sister.
所以在街上，当有人问我，你为什么是黑人时，他会说，第一，她是我的妹妹。
Number two, she is Black because her father was from Africa.
第二，她是黑人，因为她的父亲来自非洲。
And guess what?
你猜怎么着？
Everybody's Black in Africa.
非洲人人都是黑人。
And they would say, yeah, but she was born in Moscow.
他们会说，是的，但她出生在莫斯科。
She's supposed to be white.
她应该是白人。
And he says, OK, Yelena, if somebody else asks you the question about color, we're just beating them right away.
他说，好吧，叶莲娜，如果其他人问你有关颜色的问题，我们会立即击败他们。
So we were known in the neighborhood as the most cruel fighter.
所以我们在附近被称为最残忍的战士。
He taught me how to fight.
他教我如何战斗。
He told me, you take a bottle, you break the bottle, and with whatever is left, you just put in their face.
他告诉我，你拿一个瓶子，打破瓶子，然后用剩下的东西放在他们的脸上。
So we were bad kids in the neighborhood.
所以我们是附近的坏孩子。
This was when she was only seven years old.
那是她只有七岁的时候。
So Russia wasn't some racism-free utopia.
所以俄罗斯并不是一个没有种族主义的乌托邦。
People like Yelena obviously came up against what I would call racism.
像叶莲娜这样的人显然遇到了我所说的种族主义。
But when I asked Yelena about it--
但当我问叶莲娜这件事时——
That was not racism.
那不是种族主义。
That was curiosity.
那是好奇心。
That was ignorance, but not racism.
这是无知，但不是种族主义。
This happened a lot in our conversation.
这样的事在我们的谈话中发生过很多次。
Yelena would tell a story about some experience that sounded honestly horrible to me, but she'd always insist that it wasn't racism or discrimination.
叶莲娜会讲一个关于一些经历的故事，这些经历对我来说确实很可怕，但她总是坚持认为这不是种族主义或歧视。
It was ignorance.
这是无知。
I think that ignorance can be, and often is, racism.
我认为无知可能是而且经常是种族主义。
But I didn't want to debate that fact so much as understand how she thought about it.
但我不想争论这个事实，而是想了解她的想法。
Although people commented on it, Yelena didn't think too much about the color of her skin when she was a child.
尽管人们对此评价很高，但叶莲娜小时候并没有过多考虑自己的肤色。
She didn't feel different because she was Black, but because her family came from America.
她并没有因为自己是黑人而感到与众不同，而是因为她的家人来自美国。
It wasn't until she started thinking about boys and love that she thought more and more about the way she looked, how much she stood out from everyone else.
直到她开始思考男孩和爱情，她才越来越多地思考自己的外表，思考自己与其他人有多么不同。
And I would ask my mother, Mom, why am I so ugly?
我会问妈妈，妈妈，我为什么这么丑？
Why is my nose so big?
为什么我的鼻子这么大？
Why are my lips so huge?
为什么我的嘴唇这么大？
And she would say, no, you're beautiful.
她会说，不，你很漂亮。
And then she would ask her American friends to bring American magazines, Black and Lovely-- I think it was called Black and Lovely.
然后她会叫她的美国朋友带美国杂志《Black and Lovely》——我想它就叫《Black and Lovely》。
And my mom would show me those magazines and say, look, those beautiful women, you look just like them.
我妈妈会给我看那些杂志，然后说，看，那些漂亮的女人，你看起来就像她们一样。
And I would take this.
我会接受这个。
I was so proud, I would take this magazine, bring it to Sasha and other friends in the street and say, look, I'm just like them.
我很自豪，我会把这本杂志带给萨沙和街上的其他朋友，然后说，看，我就像他们一样。
And they would say, Yelena, this is a very strange magazine.
他们会说，叶莲娜，这是一本非常奇怪的杂志。
Why is everybody Black in it?
为什么里面的人都是黑人？
Don't bring those magazines anymore.
别再带那些杂志了。
And I felt so lonely, because I didn't have anybody just like me.
我感到很孤独，因为没有人和我一样。
I had assumed that there would be a little community of all the Black Russians, that they'd stick together and hang out all the time.
我原以为会有一个由所有俄罗斯黑人组成的小社区，他们会一直聚在一起闲逛。
But it sounds like Yelena didn't have that, wasn't around people that looked like her, not even her mom, really.
但听起来叶莲娜没有这些，她身边没有像她这样的人，甚至她的妈妈也没有，真的。
Lily was much lighter and gorgeous, according to Yelena.
据叶莲娜说，莉莉更加轻盈、美丽。
Just for the record, when I met Yelena, I thought she was gorgeous.
郑重声明一下，当我见到叶莲娜时，我觉得她很漂亮。
There's something regal about her.
她有一种高贵的气质。
It's hard to imagine her as a self-conscious teenager, but she was.
很难想象她是一个有自我意识的青少年，但她确实是。
My mother would always remind me.
我妈妈总是会提醒我。
Let's say she would tell me, be careful with boys.
假设她会告诉我，对男孩要小心。
They would not date you because they love you, but because they would want to try dating a Black girl.
他们不会和你约会，因为他们爱你，而是因为他们想尝试和黑人女孩约会。
And that's why my self-esteem was damaged, probably, because I didn't trust any Russian guy that would approach me.
这就是为什么我的自尊心受到损害，可能是因为我不相信任何会接近我的俄罗斯人。
And I didn't believe that somebody would fall in love with me at all, sincerely.
我根本不相信有人会真诚地爱上我。
I wanted to know the ways in which being Black shaped Yelena's life in Russia.
我想知道黑人身份如何影响叶莲娜在俄罗斯的生活。
And to hear her tell it, her family was never denied an apartment because of their race.
据她讲述，她的家人从未因为种族而被拒绝入住公寓。
She was never put into an inferior school because of her race.
她从未因种族原因被送入劣等学校。
She was never singled out by law enforcement because of her race.
她从未因种族问题而被执法部门单独挑选。
There wasn't that kind of institutional racism.
不存在那种制度性的种族主义。
But she was lonely.
但她很孤独。
She felt undesirable.
她感觉不受欢迎。
Being Black made it hard for her to imagine a future with a partner.
作为黑人，她很难想象与伴侣的未来。
So much of my conversation with her was about wanting to find her person, her strong desire to find someone, and her fear that she wouldn't.
我和她的谈话大部分都是关于想要找到她的人，她强烈渴望找到一个人，以及她担心她找不到。
Despite her insecurities, Yelena was popular and accomplished.
尽管叶莲娜缺乏安全感，但她很受欢迎，也很有成就。
She took music lessons, spoke perfect English, and was an excellent tennis player, just as her grandfather would have wanted.
她参加了音乐课程，英语说得很好，并且是一名出色的网球运动员，正如她祖父所希望的那样。
Her mother constantly reminded her that she had to be better than everyone else.
她的母亲不断提醒她，她必须比其他人都优秀。
Apparently, you still have to be twice as good in the Soviet Union.
显然，你在苏联的表现还得加倍。
She was recruited to play tennis at one of the country's top universities and accepted into their prestigious journalism program.
她被招募到该国一所顶尖大学打网球，并被他们著名的新闻专业录取。
She had so much going for her, but she still felt like no boy would ever want to date her, until she met Vaisa.
她有很多事情要做，但她仍然觉得没有男孩愿意和她约会，直到她遇到了维萨。
He was a chess champion.
他是国际象棋冠军。
And well, I started in Moscow State University, so I was a tennis player.
嗯，我从莫斯科国立大学开始，所以我是一名网球运动员。
He was a chess player.
他是一名国际象棋棋手。
And (LAUGHING) we were a beautiful couple.
（笑）我们是一对美丽的情侣。
And he had a very rough time dating me.
他和我约会的时候很艰难。
Then the coach, physical training coach of the university, called his parents and said, do you know that he's dating a Black girl?
然后大学的体能教练打电话给他的父母说，你知道他在和一个黑人女孩约会吗？
And they said, well, yes.
他们说，嗯，是的。
Why?
为什么？
What's wrong?
怎么了？
And he said, because she will get pregnant, and she will marry him.
他说，因为她会怀孕，她会嫁给他。
Then his parents called my mother and said, if you think that your daughter will make our son marry your daughter, you are wrong.
然后他的父母打电话给我妈妈说，如果你认为你的女儿会让我们的儿子嫁给你的女儿，那你就错了。
And then my mom said, if you think that my daughter will marry your son, you're damn wrong.
然后我妈妈说，如果你认为我的女儿会嫁给你的儿子，那你就大错特错了。
There's no way my gorgeous daughter will marry your ugly son.
我漂亮的女儿不可能嫁给你丑陋的儿子。
And it was just going back and forth, back and forth.
它只是来回，来回。
So he felt that he had to demonstrate that, no matter what, he will be with me.
所以他觉得他必须证明，无论如何，他都会和我在一起。
So he started missing his classes.
于是他开始旷课。
And he would come to my classes and sit there.
他会来我的课并坐在那里。
So the teachers from his classes would write him, you have to attend.
所以他班上的老师会写信给他，你必须参加。
You have to attend.
你必须参加。
Boom, boom, boom.
繁荣，繁荣，繁荣。
So the end of the story was very sad.
所以故事的结局是非常悲伤的。
He was kicked out of university for missing classes, and he was taken to the army.
他因缺课而被大学开除，并被送往军队。
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
If you are kicked out of university, you have to go to the army.
如果你被大学开除，你就必须去参军。
Wow.
哇。
Yelena Khanga So that was my first experience dating a Russian boy.
叶莲娜·坎加（Yelena Khanga） 这是我第一次和俄罗斯男孩约会。
Yeah-- a pretty dramatic end to a first relationship.
是的——第一段关系的戏剧性结局。
But the drama didn't stop there for Yelena.
但叶莲娜的戏剧并没有就此结束。
A few years later, she dated a Russian guy from Veronezh, a small town about a day's drive away from Moscow.
几年后，她和一位来自维罗涅日的俄罗斯男子约会，维罗涅日是一个距离莫斯科大约一天车程的小镇。
They went to visit his parents and stay for the weekend.
他们去看望他的父母并留下来过周末。
One morning, she came back from the shower and caught her boyfriend's mother examining the bed sheets.
一天早上，她洗完澡回来，发现男友的母亲正在检查床单。
And later, I asked my boyfriend, what was she looking?
后来我问我男朋友，她在看什么？
And he said, well, she never saw people of color, so she thought that the sheets would be turned to-- and she was very surprised that they were clean.
他说，好吧，她从来没有见过有色人种，所以她认为床单会变成——她很惊讶床单是干净的。
But again, it was not racism, it was pure ignorance-- pure ignorance.
但再说一遍，这不是种族主义，而是纯粹的无知——纯粹的无知。
And this woman adored me later.
后来这个女人也喜欢上了我。
So but I felt that enough is enough, and it's time for me to be with people that knows who I am, that don't look at my sheets, and don't ask stupid questions.
所以，但我觉得已经够了，是时候和那些知道我是谁、不看我的床单、不问愚蠢问题的人在一起了。
Something was missing for Yelena in Russia.
对于俄罗斯的叶莲娜来说，有些东西缺失了。
And like me and her grandparents, she decided to look elsewhere for answers.
和我和她的祖父母一样，她决定到别处寻找答案。
She thought she'd find them in the very country that her grandparents had fled-- America.
她以为她会在她祖父母逃离的那个国家——美国找到他们。
Yelena had heard about American racism, but she still thought she would be better off in the USA.
叶莲娜听说过美国的种族主义，但她仍然认为自己在美国会过得更好。
When we saw Eddie Murphy, when we heard about Arthur Ash, when we heard about those brilliant musicians and jazz musicians, and all of them were Black and very, very, very successful.
当我们看到艾迪·墨菲时，当我们听说阿瑟·阿什时，当我们听说那些杰出的音乐家和爵士音乐家时，他们都是黑人，而且非常、非常、非常成功。
So when my grandmother would start telling me about racism, I would say, yeah, yeah, yeah, right, and think about all those very famous African-American athletes that would be laughing all the way to the bank.
因此，当我的祖母开始告诉我有关种族主义的事情时，我会说，是的，是的，是的，对的，并想想所有那些非常著名的非裔美国运动员，他们会一直笑到银行。
So I felt that I would be understood much better by people like me.
所以我觉得像我这样的人会更好地理解我。
And in fact, yes, I was dreaming about going to United States and marrying an African-American.
事实上，是的，我梦想着去美国并与非裔美国人结婚。
When you pictured and dreamed of going to America, what did that life look like?
当您想象并梦想去美国时，那种生活是什么样的？
How would this guy look like?
这个人会是什么样子？
The man of my dream?
我的梦中情人？
[LAUGHS] I said life, but I guess we could also get a description of the guy.
[笑]我说的是生活，但我想我们也可以得到关于这个人的描述。
Uh, yeah.
呃，是的。
See, I was not really dreaming about skyscrapers and, you know, capitalism, and all that.
看，我并不是真的梦想着摩天大楼以及资本主义等等。
I didn't understand about that, but I just felt that-- what's this song?
我不明白，但我只是觉得——这首歌是什么？
(SINGING) One day, da da da dum, he'll be tall and Black.
（唱）有一天，哒哒哒哒，他会长得又高又黑。
Da da da dum.
达达达达姆。
Whose song was that?
那首歌是谁的？
"One Day Your Prince Will Come," The Sleeping Beauty.
《有一天你的王子会来》，《睡美人》。
Yeah.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Emanuele Berry Actually, "It's The Man I Love." It's Gershwin, not Disney.
埃马努埃莱·贝里 实际上，“这是我爱的男人。”这是格什温，不是迪士尼。
But what do I know?
但我知道什么？
My parents almost exclusively listened to Stevie Wonder's Inner Visions for most of my childhood.
在我童年的大部分时间里，我的父母几乎只听史蒂夫·旺德的《Inner Visions》。
I was expecting to meet a prince that would look like me.
我期待着遇见一位长得像我的王子。
And he would look at me and he would say, oh, my God, you're so gorgeous.
他会看着我说，哦，天哪，你真是太漂亮了。
Because even the guy that really, really loved me, Vaisa, in the university, he used to call me Monkey.
因为即使是大学里非常非常爱我的维萨，他也曾经叫我猴子。
He called me Monkey, with love.
他满怀爱意地叫我“猴子”。
He didn't realize that that was insulting.
他没有意识到这是一种侮辱。
And I never told him that, in America, that would be insulting.
我从来没有告诉过他，在美国，这会是一种侮辱。
But you know, in Russia, guys would call their girls Rabbit-- I don't know-- my cat.
但你知道，在俄罗斯，男人们会称他们的女孩为“兔子”——我不知道——“我的猫”。
Well, he called me, My Monkey.
嗯，他叫我“我的猴子”。
And I couldn't explain to him that that was racist, because I knew he was not a racist.
我无法向他解释这是种族主义，因为我知道他不是种族主义者。
That's just how he called me.
他就是这么称呼我的。
And I felt, OK, if I look like a monkey, and so what?
我觉得，好吧，如果我看起来像一只猴子，那又怎样？
Wait.
等待。
So this guy called you Monkey, and you didn't say, hey, you can't do that?
所以这个人叫你猴子，你没有说，嘿，你不能这样做？
But he didn't insult me.
但他没有侮辱我。
He didn't mean to insult me, he loved me.
他并不是有意侮辱我，他是爱我的。
And as I told you, he was punished for this love.
正如我告诉过你的，他因为这份爱而受到了惩罚。
[CHUCKLES]
[笑声]
I would have trouble with that one.
我会遇到麻烦。
[CHUCKLES]
[笑声]
I know.
我知道。
I know.
我知道。
I know it sounds terrible to you.
我知道这对你来说听起来很糟糕。
I know.
我知道。
Yelena moved to America in 1989.
1989年，叶莲娜移居美国。
She was 27 years old, and she built a life for herself there.
她当时27岁，在那里为自己建立了生活。
She worked as a journalist.
她是一名记者。
She made friends, Black friends.
她交了朋友，黑人朋友。
She loved to go to Black churches and listen to gospel music live.
她喜欢去黑人教堂现场听福音音乐。
She went to salons that actually knew how to style Black hair.
她去了真正知道如何设计黑发的沙龙。
And she found her Black Prince Charming.
她找到了她的黑马王子。
He was perfect.
他很完美。
He was perfect.
他很完美。
He was playing tennis.
他正在打网球。
He loved jazz.
他喜欢爵士乐。
He liked classical music.
他喜欢古典音乐。
He was just perfect for me.
他对我来说简直就是完美的。
They dated for a few years.
他们约会了几年。
Yelena was sure he was going to propose.
叶莲娜确信他会求婚。
And then one night, he invited her out to a fancy restaurant.
然后有一天晚上，他邀请她去一家高档餐厅。
So I got dressed.
所以我穿好衣服了。
I prepared.
我准备好了。
I knew how I will answer him.
我知道我该如何回答他。
So we go to this restaurant, very fancy restaurant.
所以我们去了这家餐厅，非常高档的餐厅。
And the reception, they tell us that, we are sorry, it is packed.
接待处，他们告诉我们，很抱歉，已经挤满了人。
But there is just one place near the bathroom.
但靠近浴室的地方只有一处。
And he says, no, no, no, we're not taking it.
他说，不，不，不，我们不会接受。
And I said, no?
我说，不是吗？
Why not?
为什么不呢？
He says, well, I want to sit near the window.
他说，好吧，我想坐在靠窗的位置。
I said, well, it doesn't really matter-- window, bathroom.
我说，好吧，这并不重要——窗户、浴室。
I mean, it's clean.
我的意思是，它很干净。
The food is the same.
食物是一样的。
Because I wanted to hear the proposal, OK?
因为我想听听这个提议，好吗？
I didn't care where we were sitting.
我不在乎我们坐在哪里。
Fair.
公平的。
Yes.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yelena Khanga So he said, no. And he said, Yelena, you don't understand.
Yelena Khanga 所以他说，不。他说，叶莲娜，你不明白。
Our grandparents were fighting, they were dying for the right to sit at the window, not at the bathroom.
我们的祖父母正在奋斗，他们非常渴望拥有坐在窗边而不是浴室的权利。
And I said, you know, in Russia, unless you bribe, you won't get a table, regardless of your color.
我说，你知道，在俄罗斯，除非你行贿，否则无论你的肤色如何，你都不会得到一张桌子。
As long as you're green, you will get it.
只要你是绿色的，你就会得到它。
So please stop feeling so insecure.
所以请停止感到如此不安全。
And he said, you know what?
他说，你知道吗？
We would never understand each other.
我们永远不会互相理解。
You're Black outside, but you're white inside.
你外表是黑人，但内心却是白人。
You don't understand what we went through.
你不明白我们经历了什么。
And that was the end of our proposal.
我们的提案就到此结束了。
Yes.
是的。
Yes, yes, because it showed that we were so different.
是的，是的，因为这表明我们是如此不同。
And he said that we would never understand each other.
他说我们永远不会互相理解。
She agreed.
她同意了。
They had different pain points.
他们有不同的痛点。
In Russia, she hadn't experienced the kind of institutional racism he had.
在俄罗斯，她没有经历过他所经历的那种制度性种族主义。
And she said her boyfriend couldn't possibly feel the things that upset her as a Russian the way she felt them.
她说，作为一个俄罗斯人，她的男朋友不可能像她那样感受到那些让她心烦意乱的事情。
Do you feel like you fully understand African-American-- the sort of pain points?
你觉得你完全理解非洲裔美国人的痛点吗？
Or no?
或者没有？
I understand them, but I don't feel them.
我理解它们，但我感觉不到它们。
That's the difference.
这就是区别。
The things that upsets, let's say, African-Americans, I can see why that upsets, but it doesn't hurt.
那些让非裔美国人感到不安的事情，我能理解为什么会让人不安，但这并没有什么坏处。
When he said to you, you're Black on the outside, but you're white on the inside, what was your reaction to that?
当他对你说，你外表是黑人，但你内心是白人时，你对此有何反应？
I thought he was stupid.
我以为他很蠢。
I said, how could I be Black and white inside?
我说我内心怎么可能是黑白的呢？
I mean, I am who I am.
我的意思是，我就是我。
And the things that I went through, you don't understand.
而我所经历的事情，你是无法理解的。
Did you guys ever talk about race before the argument that you had in the restaurant?
你们在餐厅发生争执之前有没有谈论过种族问题？
Was that a conversation you guys had, or not at all?
你们有过这样的谈话吗？还是根本没有？
No, he-- no, we didn't talk about that.
不，他——不，我们没有讨论过这个。
No.
不。
Did it surprise you when it came up in the restaurant?
当它出现在餐厅时，你是否感到惊讶？
Yes, it did, because I still don't believe that if they didn't offer us a place near the window, it meant that it was racism.
是的，确实如此，因为我仍然不相信，如果他们不为我们提供靠近窗户的地方，就意味着这是种族主义。
I still don't believe so.
我还是不相信是这样。
So for you, it feels easier just to sort of give a little bit of the benefit of the doubt, or be like, I can't know for sure what the intention was, so I have to let it go.
所以对你来说，感觉更容易，只是给予一点怀疑的好处，或者就像，我不能确定意图是什么，所以我必须放手。
Yes, I don't know for sure, and I don't want to think about it.
是的，我不确定，我也不想去想。
I don't want to damage my nerve system by thinking about that.
我不想因为思考这个问题而损害我的神经系统。
I will never know the truth, number one.
我永远不会知道真相，第一。
Number two, it can be both.
第二，两者都可以。
Number two, it can be both.
第二，两者都可以。
And number three, what difference does it make?
第三，这有什么区别？
It's so interesting that you say that, just because I feel like it's a thing we do all the time in America is that we replay out these moments of discomfort for each other in the Black community over, and over, and over again.
你这么说真是太有趣了，因为我觉得这是我们在美国一直在做的一件事，就是我们一遍又一遍地重演黑人社区中彼此不舒服的时刻。
What for?
做什么的？
What for?
做什么的？
What are you gaining?
你有什么收获？
If you told me that I did that and, as a result, this restaurant was closed, for example, or as a result, this waiter was kicked out, that makes sense.
例如，如果你告诉我，我这样做了，结果，这家餐厅关门了，或者结果，这位服务员被赶了出去，这是有道理的。
But why going through that again, and again, and again, without any results?
但为什么一次又一次地经历这些却没有任何结果呢？
Why scratching the place until the first blood on your body?
为什么要抓破地方直到身上出现第一滴血呢？
But I think part of the reason we do it is to recognize that this is happening.
但我认为我们这样做的部分原因是认识到这种情况正在发生。
Like, we must acknowledge that this is happening.
就像，我们必须承认这种情况正在发生。
We can't pretend it's not happening.
我们不能假装它没有发生。
Yes, I acknowledge it.
是的，我承认。
But again, if I would sit down at home and start, oh, they did it because I'm Jewish, no, they did it because I'm Black.
但是，如果我坐在家里开始，哦，他们这样做是因为我是犹太人，不，他们这样做是因为我是黑人。
No, they did it because my grandparents are American.
不，他们这样做是因为我的祖父母是美国人。
No, they did it because of that, and that, and that.
不，他们这样做是因为那个、那个、那个。
You know, there's no end to that.
你知道，这没有尽头。
I think for many Black Americans, there's a curiosity, a need to understand and explore that constant unease we experience.
我认为对于许多美国黑人来说，有一种好奇心，需要理解和探索我们所经历的持续的不安。
Because I'm Black, is my doctor giving me proper care?
因为我是黑人，我的医生是否给我适当的护理？
Because I'm Black, am I here to fill a diversity quota?
因为我是黑人，我来这里是为了填补多元化配额吗？
Because I'm Black, am I being pulled over?
因为我是黑人，我就被拉过来了吗？
Part of what it means to be Black here, part of what draws us together is investigation of that discomfort.
作为黑人在这里意味着什么，让我们聚集在一起的部分原因就是对这种不适的调查。
There's communal reassurance in that.
这是一种共同的保证。
I know that Black people are not a monolith.
我知道黑人并不是铁板一块。
Yet, the fact that Yelena didn't have this curiosity surprised me.
然而，令我惊讶的是，叶莲娜没有这种好奇心。
But it also made sense.
但这也是有道理的。
Yelena didn't have an echo chamber of injustices growing up.
叶莲娜在成长过程中并没有经历过不公正的回音室。
I can talk to my hairstylist, my trainer, my family, and say, hey, this thing happened.
我可以和我的发型师、我的教练、我的家人交谈，然后说，嘿，这件事发生了。
Yelena had no community to share with, nobody to co-sign.
叶莲娜没有可以分享的社区，也没有人可以共同签名。
Her problems were not those of Black people, but her own.
她的问题不是黑人的问题，而是她自己的问题。
I want to be clear.
我想澄清一下。
Being Black is not some joyless exercise for me.
对我来说，成为黑人并不是一件无趣的事情。
I wouldn't trade it for the world.
我不会用它来换取整个世界。
I'm not moping about.
我并没有闷闷不乐。
But Yelena's right about one thing-- thinking about race all the time is exhausting.
但叶莲娜有一件事是对的——一直思考种族问题让人筋疲力尽。
But I can't let it go, and I tried to explain to her why.
但我就是放不下，我试图向她解释原因。
I feel like part of it is like, there are small things that I feel like, in some ways, add up to one really big problem that just still hasn't been solved.
我觉得其中一部分是，我觉得有些小事情，在某些方面，加起来就是一个尚未解决的大问题。
That it's like, it's small things that add up to feeling like you don't belong here, that the country that you've always existed in doesn't want you.
就好像，这些小事加起来让你感觉自己不属于这里，你一直存在的国家不想要你。
And I don't know.
我不知道。
I feel--
我觉得——
See, I had this dream that, yes, somewhere there was another world where I belonged to.
看，我有一个梦想，是的，在某个地方有我所属的另一个世界。
And this is America.
这是美国。
Now with you, I don't understand where your dream house is.
现在和你在一起，我不明白你梦想的房子在哪里。
I don't know where my dream house is.
我不知道我的梦想之家在哪里。
I don't know exactly where this place is.
我不知道这个地方具体在哪里。
Back to Africa, right?
回到非洲吧？
Are you talking about going to Africa?
你是说去非洲吗？
I don't think so.
我不这么认为。
I don't even think it's necessarily back to Africa.
我什至认为不一定要回到非洲。
I think I don't know if this place exists.
我想我不知道这个地方是否存在。
I think it's just this place, in some ways, still doesn't accept me after all of this time, and that maybe this is as good as it gets, and maybe there isn't another place or a better option.
我认为只是这个地方，在某些方面，经过这么长时间仍然不接受我，也许这已经是最好的了，也许没有其他地方或更好的选择。
Do you think it's silly that I think about these things so much?
你觉得我想那么多这些事很傻吗？
Yes.
是的。
I think it's silly that you think about it so much.
我觉得你想那么多真是愚蠢。
There are more important things in your life, that you don't have to waste your time on things that you cannot change.
你的生活中有更重要的事情，你不必把时间浪费在你无法改变的事情上。
And you don't have to change those people.
而且你不必改变这些人。
If that's how they are, I don't think you have to waste your life on changing them.
如果事实就是如此，我认为你不必浪费生命来改变它们。
You just drop them and go on with your life.
你只需放下它们并继续你的生活。
Don't worry about the things you cannot change.
不要担心那些你无法改变的事情。
Sometimes, I think Yelena's right, that I'm silly for obsessing over this stuff.
有时，我认为叶莲娜是对的，我沉迷于这些东西是愚蠢的。
And I wonder if maybe she's better off for not having spent her entire life puzzling and picking over every interaction with white people, that maybe her grandparents moving to the USSR helped her bypass parts of America's particular brand of racism.
我想知道，如果她没有一生都在与白人的每一次互动中困惑和挑剔，也许她的生活会更好，也许她搬到苏联的祖父母帮助她绕过了美国特有的种族主义的部分内容。
But maybe I never really had a choice.
但也许我从来没有真正的选择。
Race, specifically Black and white, is such an integral part of living in this country.
种族，特别是黑人和白人，是这个国家生活中不可或缺的一部分。
Yelena insists I have bigger things to worry about.
叶莲娜坚称我有更重要的事情要担心。
But honestly, I can't think of anything that affects me more.
但老实说，我想不出还有什么比这对我影响更大。
Being a Black American is what keeps me from feeling like I truly belong in this country.
作为一名美国黑人，让我感觉自己真正属于这个国家。
Have you ever felt like you belonged somewhere?
你有没有感觉自己属于某个地方？
Have you ever found that place?
你找到过那个地方吗？
You know what?
你知道吗？
For me, it's not where, it's more with whom.
对我来说，重要的不是在哪里，而是和谁一起。
That's what was important for me when I lived in the United States.
当我住在美国时，这对我来说很重要。
It was important that I was surrounded by people I really loved.
周围都是我真正爱的人，这一点很重要。
It doesn't matter where I am.
我在哪里并不重要。
As long as I'm surrounded by love, that's all that matters.
只要我被爱包围，这就是最重要的。
I wish that surrounding myself with people I love solved my problem.
我希望身边都是我爱的人能够解决我的问题。
I am surrounded by people I love.
我周围都是我爱的人。
A lot of those people are Black.
其中很多人都是黑人。
And as long as I feel threatened on behalf of all of them, I can't stop wishing there was a better place for us.
只要我感到代表他们所有人受到威胁，我就无法停止希望我们有一个更好的地方。
Yelena's better place turned out to be right where she started.
事实证明，叶莲娜更好的地方就在她开始的地方。
She lived in the USA for 12 years and might have stayed, but then she met her husband-- a white Russian man.
她在美国生活了 12 年，本来可能会留下来，但后来她遇到了她的丈夫——一位俄罗斯白人。
And they moved to Moscow where he did treat her like a princess.
他们搬到了莫斯科，在那里他确实像对待公主一样对待她。
It was hard to find a Black salon in Moscow back then, so he would fly her to Paris just to get her hair done.
当时在莫斯科很难找到黑人沙龙，所以他会飞到巴黎给她做头发。
Emanuele Berry is one of the producers of our show.
埃马努埃莱·贝里 (Emanuele Berry) 是我们节目的制片人之一。
Thanks to Yelena Demikovsky, who's making a documentary about Black Russians that includes Yelena Khanga.
感谢叶莲娜·德米科夫斯基，她正在制作一部关于俄罗斯黑人的纪录片，其中包括叶莲娜·康加。
Coming up, a guy gets kicked out of a thing he had no idea he could get kicked out of.
接下来，一个人被踢出了一件他不知道自己会被踢出的事情。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program, Get Back to Where You Once Belonged, stories of people who do not feel quite at home where they are, searching for their place and their people.
今天的节目《回到你曾经所属的地方》讲述了那些对自己所在的地方感到不自在的人们寻找自己的位置和家人的故事。
We've arrived at Act Two of our program.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。
Act Two, Nowhere Man.
第二幕，无处可去的人。
So this story is about somebody who felt like he really had found his place in the world-- a job he was good at, a group of people that he liked and admired.
所以这个故事是关于一个人觉得他真的找到了自己在世界上的位置——一份他擅长的工作，一群他喜欢和钦佩的人。
And then he got kicked out, and kicked out in this way he didn't even know was a possibility.
然后他被赶了出来，以他甚至不知道有这种可能性的方式被赶了出来。
Reporter Jeremy Raff explains.
记者杰里米·拉夫解释道。
Raul Rodriguez is like a lot of the dads I grew up with in Texas, but somehow even more so.
劳尔·罗德里格斯就像我在德克萨斯州长大的许多父亲一样，但不知何故更是如此。
He fixes his own truck, kills his own goats.
他自己修理卡车，自己宰杀山羊。
And when you walk into his living room, there's two buck heads on the wall, a big TV, and in the middle of it all, the thing he's most proud of, on a little shelf encased in plexiglass.
当你走进他的客厅时，你会发现墙上挂着两个雄鹿头，还有一台大电视，在这一切的中间，他最引以为傲的东西就放在一个用有机玻璃包裹的小架子上。
This is my Department of Justice badge or the Immigration Inspector badge that was--
这是我的司法部徽章或移民检查员徽章——
It's kind of surprising that Raul ended up working for immigration, given how he first met those guys.
考虑到劳尔第一次见到这些人的方式，他最终为移民工作，这有点令人惊讶。
He grew up in Mission, Texas, right by the border.
他在德克萨斯州米申长大，就在边境附近。
He'd go back and forth between Mexico and the US all the time.
他一直在墨西哥和美国之间来回穿梭。
And when he crossed, the border agents would always stop him, bust his chops, ask for his papers.
当他过境时，边防人员总是会拦住他，狠狠地打他，索要他的证件。
He'd always show them-- here's my birth certificate, born in Brownsville, Texas.
他总是向他们展示——这是我的出生证明，出生于德克萨斯州布朗斯维尔。
But they were jerks about it.
但他们对此很混蛋。
By the time Raul was a teenager, he says it was like a ritual.
当劳尔十几岁的时候，他说这就像一种仪式。
The officer usually kind of looks at you and then starts saying, OK, what's your name?
警官通常会看着你，然后开始说，好吧，你叫什么名字？
Says, you know why we're bringing you in here?
说，你知道我们为什么带你来这里吗？
And I go, yeah, pretty much.
我走了，是的，差不多了。
He wanted to know if I'm a citizen or not.
他想知道我是否是公民。
And I says, well, I am.
我说，好吧，我是。
And he says, well, we know you're not.
他说，好吧，我们知道你不是。
And I says, OK, well, show me.
我说，好吧，给我看看。
Oh, you know, we can't show you.
哦，你知道，我们不能给你看。
And I tell him, come on, man.
我告诉他，来吧，伙计。
I've been here many times, and it's not right for you to harass me like this.
我已经来过很多次了，你这样骚扰我是不对的。
I don't know why, because I don't look the part.
我不知道为什么，因为我看起来不像那个角色。
I don't look as US citizen-y enough as you want me to.
我看起来不像你希望的那样有足够的美国公民身份。
My features are very Hispanic, very Mexican.
我的特征非常西班牙裔、墨西哥裔。
Eventually, after a bit, they'd let him go, every time.
最终，过了一会儿，他们每次都会放他走。
He was going back and forth across the border so much because his parents were in Mexico, and he lived with his aunt and uncle in Texas.
他经常往返边境，因为他的父母在墨西哥，而他和叔叔阿姨住在德克萨斯州。
It wasn't a great situation.
情况不太好。
His cousins never really accepted him.
他的堂兄弟们从来没有真正接受过他。
They beat him up.
他们殴打了他。
At family functions, his aunt and uncle would introduce their own kids first, then him.
在家庭聚会上，他的叔叔阿姨会先介绍自己的孩子，然后是他。
He says he was an afterthought at best.
他说他充其量只是事后的想法。
I got called from bastard to a Negro, because I was different from their color.
我被从私生子称为黑人，因为我与他们的肤色不同。
I was very dark, compared to them.
与他们相比，我很黑暗。
They were very light-skinned.
他们的肤色很浅。
And I don't know what the translation would be, a arrimado.
我不知道翻译是什么，a arrimado。
Do you know what I'm talking about?
你知道我在说什么吗？
Arrimado, that word, arrimado, it's a relative that just stays there, like a leech.
Arrimado，这个词，arrimado，它是一种呆在那里的亲戚，就像水蛭一样。
When Raul would visit his parents during the summers, he'd beg to stay.
当劳尔暑假探望父母时，他会请求留下来。
He hated living in Texas, but they always sent him back.
他讨厌住在德克萨斯州，但他们总是把他送回去。
Your mom gave birth to you on the US side so you could be a citizen, they'd say.
他们会说，你妈妈在美国生下了你，这样你就可以成为公民。
It's going to be better for you there.
那里对你来说会更好。
Trust us.
相信我们。
Eventually, Raul says, it did get better.
劳尔说，最终情况确实变得更好了。
After high school when he joined the Navy, the structure, the order, the authority, he liked it, which led him to law enforcement.
高中毕业后，他加入了海军，他喜欢这里的结构、秩序和权威，这促使他从事执法工作。
After the Navy, he became an immigration officer, just like the officers who harassed him when he was a teenager.
退役后，他成为一名移民官员，就像他十几岁时骚扰他的官员一样。
He even got assigned to the same bridge he used to cross back then.
他甚至被分配到他当时走过的那座桥上。
Some of the very same officers who doubted his citizenship were now his co-workers.
一些怀疑他公民身份的官员现在成了他的同事。
I had this one inspector that's a female.
我有一位检查员，是一位女性。
And when I showed up for work for the first day, I told her, remember me?
当我第一天上班时，我告诉她，还记得我吗？
She says, no, I don't remember you.
她说，不，我不记得你了。
Oh, you used to take me inside, and you wanted to break me.
哦，你曾经把我带进去，你想打碎我。
And she says, was I mean?
她说，我是故意的吗？
I go, yes, you were very mean-- tried to intimidate me a lot.
我说，是的，你非常刻薄——经常试图恐吓我。
And oh, I'm sorry.
哦，对不起。
From the beginning, Raul was a very thorough officer.
从一开始，劳尔就是一位非常彻底的军官。
For example, one day this guy comes through who Raul knows really well.
例如，有一天，劳尔非常熟悉的一个人出现了。
He used to work with him in a furniture factory.
他曾经和他一起在一家家具厂工作。
The guy was like an uncle to him.
这家伙对他来说就像叔叔一样。
He's coming from Mexico into the United States.
他正从墨西哥来到美国。
Raul checks his papers, and it turns out the guy had a tourist visa, which doesn't let you work.
劳尔检查了他的证件，结果发现这个人持有旅游签证，但不允许你工作。
Raul revoked the visa-- took it away, didn't let the guy in.
劳尔撤销了签证——把它拿走，不让那家伙入境。
For a while at one point, they called me El Gacho.
有一段时间，他们叫我埃尔加乔。
Because I wouldn't let anything through.
因为我不会让任何事情通过。
I had to do it.
我必须这么做。
I didn't let anybody slack.
我没有让任何人松懈。
Raul wasn't just thorough.
劳尔不仅彻底。
His wife told me, there are a lot of slugs in federal government.
他的妻子告诉我，联邦政府里有很多鼻涕虫。
Raul wasn't one of them.
劳尔不是其中之一。
He's an above and beyond guy, a standout.
他是一个超越一切的人，一个杰出的人。
And he stood out more and more, because it's pretty well documented Customs and Border Protection, or CBP, had some ugly instances of corruption, bribery, drug smugglers infiltrating.
他越来越引人注目，因为海关和边境保护局（CBP）有很多腐败、贿赂、毒品走私渗透的丑陋事件记录。
By contrast, Raul was a total Boy Scout.
相比之下，劳尔是一名彻头彻尾的童子军。
He even won an award.
他甚至还获得了奖项。
In 2006, a woman approached him while he was buying cigarettes at the gas station.
2006年，当他在加油站买香烟时，一名女子走近他。
She asked him if he would look the other way while she smuggled in a kid and pushed a little piece of paper in his hand with her number on it.
她问他是否会在她偷偷带一个孩子进来时看向别处，并把一张写着她的电话号码的小纸塞到他手里。
Raul set up a sting.
劳尔设置了一个陷阱。
And the next time they met, he wore a wire.
当他们下次见面时，他戴着一根电线。
She was later arrested.
她后来被捕。
CBP gave Raul its integrity award, one of their highest honors.
CBP 授予劳尔诚信奖，这是他们的最高荣誉之一。
His bosses flew him to Washington for a big ceremony.
他的老板带他飞往华盛顿参加一个盛大的仪式。
Raul got to wear his finest uniform.
劳尔穿上了他最好的制服。
His kids were there.
他的孩子们在那里。
They got to see him walk across the stage and shake the commissioner's hand.
他们看到他走上讲台并与专员握手。
And they gave him a plaque, which these days sits in a place of honor, near the deer heads in his living room.
他们还给了他一块牌匾，如今这块牌匾被放在他客厅的鹿头附近的一个荣誉位置上。
And in his personal life, too, he was totally by the book.
在他的个人生活中，他也完全按规矩办事。
He was taught not to fraternize with anyone breaking immigration laws.
他被教导不要与任何违反移民法的人交往。
It could cost you your job.
这可能会让你失去工作。
So you have to cut ties with anybody that's had that kind of a history.
所以你必须与任何有过这种历史的人断绝关系。
Well, everybody has people who are illegally in the US, so you have to cut those out.
嗯，每个人都有非法居留美国的人，所以你必须把他们排除掉。
Anyone he was close to who was undocumented, he cut out of his life-- friends, family members.
任何与他关系密切的无证移民，他都将其排除在自己的生活之外——朋友、家人。
Raul didn't make exceptions.
劳尔也不例外。
Raul found his home-- customs.
劳尔找到了他的家——海关。
It's actually remarkable how much Raul refers to the people he worked with as family, as a brotherhood.
事实上，值得注意的是，劳尔将与他一起工作的人视为家人、兄弟情谊。
I finally belonged to somebody, to belong to something.
我终于属于某人，属于某物。
And it feels good to be wanted, to be accepted, when you never did when you were an outcast, or when you were just there.
被人需要、被接受的感觉真好，而当你被遗弃时，或者当你只是在那里时，你从未这样做过。
They did all the things families do-- a combination of responsibilities, but also fun.
他们做了家庭所做的所有事情——既有责任，又有乐趣。
They threw barbecues.
他们扔烤肉。
They went to baptisms, birthday parties.
他们去参加洗礼、生日聚会。
They hung out all the time.
他们一直出去玩。
Then one day in April, 2018, Raul goes into work.
2018 年 4 月的一天，劳尔开始工作。
He's starting his shift.
他开始轮班了。
And I see the two managers come in.
我看到两位经理进来了。
I says, oh, man, there comes the two chiefs.
我说，哦，伙计，两位酋长来了。
Everybody, be careful.
大家要小心。
Make sure you're not on the phones, and stuff like that.
确保你没有打电话或诸如此类的事情。
They go into the office.
他们走进办公室。
They set up, I guess.
我猜他们已经安排好了。
And I'm doing my work and stuff.
我正在做我的工作和其他事情。
And one of them comes out and says, hey, Raulito, and come to the office.
其中一个出来说，嘿，劳利托，到办公室来一下。
Raul had no clue what this was about, but it looked serious.
劳尔不知道这是怎么回事，但看起来很严重。
They never called you just for nothing.
他们从来不会无缘无故地给你打电话。
And they don't come in twos just for nothing.
而且它们并不是无缘无故地成双出现。
They have to have a witness.
他们必须有证人。
They open up an envelope, and that's where it says-- it says we're going to have to pick up your gun, your weapon, and your credentials.
他们打开一个信封，里面写着——它说我们必须拿起你的枪、你的武器和你的证件。
The paper says you're no longer, as of this date, a law enforcement officer, until pending further investigation.
该报称，截至目前，您不再是执法人员，直到等待进一步调查。
You know, investigation?
调查你知道吗？
What for?
做什么的？
I've never done anything wrong.
我从来没有做过任何错事。
He says, we don't know nothing about that.
他说，我们对此一无所知。
He says, we're just giving you the notice and here to pick up your weapon and your badge.
他说，我们只是给你通知，让你来领取武器和徽章。
And so I take off my belt.
所以我脱下了腰带。
I give them my belt.
我把我的腰带给了他们。
And I take off my badge.
我摘下徽章。
And I take out my credentials, and I gave it to them.
我拿出我的凭据，并将其交给他们。
Raul's head was spinning.
劳尔头晕目眩。
He'd worked there for 18 years.
他在那里工作了18年。
He was close to retirement.
他快要退休了。
Had he done something illegal and not known about it?
他是否做了违法的事情而自己却不知道？
Something small he'd forgotten about?
他忘记了什么小事吗？
He scanned his memory, and he couldn't think of a single thing.
他扫视了一下自己的记忆，却什么也想不起来。
Raul walked back out into the main office.
劳尔走回总办公室。
Everyone was looking at him, kind of sideways.
每个人都用斜视的目光看着他。
I was embarrassed, because I had to do that walk of shame, walk amongst my fellow officers without a badge and a gun.
我很尴尬，因为我必须耻辱地走在我的同事中间，没有徽章和枪。
And people were just looking at me, saying, hey, what's wrong?
人们只是看着我，说，嘿，怎么了？
What's wrong?
怎么了？
I said, I don't know, man.
我说，我不知道，伙计。
I don't know.
我不知道。
He sat at his desk for a minute, and then he called his wife.
他在办公桌前坐了一会儿，然后给妻子打电话。
She works at another branch of Homeland Security.
她在国土安全部的另一个分支机构工作。
He was quietly freaking out, so he went home.
他悄悄地吓坏了，所以他回家了。
He and his wife went around and around, trying to think of what it might be.
他和他的妻子转来转去，试图思考它可能是什么。
For the life of them, they had no clue.
对于他们的生活，他们毫无头绪。
About a week later, the OIG, the Office of Inspector General, wanted to meet with me at the courthouse building.
大约一周后，监察长办公室希望在法院大楼与我会面。
They take us into a room, one of those typical cop rooms that has the small table.
他们带我们进入一个房间，典型的警察室，里面有一张小桌子。
And it has the dark window, where you know that they're watching you from the other side.
它有一个黑暗的窗户，你知道他们正在从另一边看着你。
So agents come in, and they read me my rights.
所以特工进来了，他们宣读了我的权利。
So I said, OK, this is criminal.
所以我说，好吧，这是犯罪行为。
And so he says, are you familiar with this piece of paper?
所以他说，你熟悉这张纸吗？
And they slide it over to me.
他们把它交给我。
From his 18 years as a customs officer, he could tell right away what it was-- a Mexican birth certificate.
作为一名海关官员 18 年，他一眼就能看出那是什么——墨西哥出生证明。
I just didn't know whose it was, until I actually read it.
我只是不知道这是谁的，直到我真正读到它。
So I started reading.
于是我开始读书。
I see my name, Raul Rodriguez.
我看到我的名字，劳尔·罗德里格斯。
And I see my parents' names, Francisca, Margarito, and my grandparents' names--
我看到了我父母的名字，弗朗西斯卡、马加里托，还有我祖父母的名字——
Do you recognize it?
你认得吗？
I go, I've never seen it, but I know that it's mine because it's got my name, my parents' names, and my grandparents' names.
我去，我从来没有见过它，但我知道它是我的，因为它有我的名字，我父母的名字，还有我祖父母的名字。
But I don't recognize the date of birth.
但我不认识出生日期。
That's a different one from the one I have now.
那和我现在拥有的不同。
On this birth certificate, not only was his birthday different, but more importantly so is his place of birth-- a village outside of Matamoros, Mexico.
这张出生证明上，不仅他的生日不同，更重要的是他的出生地——墨西哥马塔莫罗斯郊外的一个村庄。
If this thing was real, then Raul was not American.
如果这件事是真的，那么劳尔就不是美国人。
Raul was confused.
劳尔很困惑。
He had his birth certificate from Brownsville, Texas.
他的出生证明来自德克萨斯州布朗斯维尔。
He'd been using it his whole life.
他一生都在使用它。
It didn't make sense.
这没有道理。
The agents explained.
经纪人解释道。
Raul had applied for a green card for his brother.
劳尔已为他的兄弟申请了绿卡。
As part of the application process, they'd looked into Raul's own citizenship documents.
作为申请过程的一部分，他们调查了劳尔自己的公民身份文件。
And in their research, they'd stumbled onto this, this Mexican birth certificate.
在他们的研究中，他们偶然发现了这张墨西哥出生证明。
And here they were.
他们就在这里。
Raul was like, look, this is not the first time someone's scrutinized my citizenship.
劳尔说，看，这不是第一次有人审查我的公民身份。
We'll get to the bottom of it and clear it up.
我们会追查到底并把它弄清楚。
He told the agents, you know what?
他告诉特工，你知道吗？
Let me get my dad in here.
让我把我爸爸叫到这里来。
Right then and there, he called his nephew and got him to drive his dad over the border.
就在那时，他打电话给他的侄子，让他开车送他的父亲越过边境。
They all met just a few hours later at a Starbucks.
几个小时后，他们就在星巴克见面了。
Raul sat with his father and the two investigators at a table inside.
劳尔和他的父亲以及两名调查员坐在里面的一张桌子旁。
No one ordered coffee.
没有人点咖啡。
Raul's dad, Margarito, told the investigators the story that Raul had always heard, that Raul's mom crossed the border so he'd be born in Brownsville.
劳尔的父亲马加里托向调查人员讲述了劳尔经常听到的故事，劳尔的妈妈越过边境，所以他出生在布朗斯维尔。
Then the investigators showed him the Mexican birth certificate.
然后调查人员向他出示了墨西哥出生证明。
Margarito looked down at the table.
马加里托低头看着桌子。
He admitted that, yes, Raul was born in Mexico, at home.
他承认，是的，劳尔出生在墨西哥的家里。
Yes, his birth date was in 1968, not 1969.
是的，他的出生日期是1968年，而不是1969年。
Yes, Raul was a Mexican citizen.
是的，劳尔是墨西哥公民。
That's Raul's wife, Anita.
那是劳尔的妻子安妮塔。
Because Anita also works in immigration, she knew how serious this all was.
因为安妮塔也在移民局工作，所以她知道这一切有多严重。
He texted me back a message that indicated that it was regarding his birth.
他给我回了一条消息，表明这是关于他的出生的。
So I said, well, where are you?
所以我说，好吧，你在哪里？
And he told me where he was.
他告诉我他在哪里。
And I said, OK, I'm on my way.
我说，好吧，我正在路上。
And when I got to the location, him and his dad were walking out.
当我到达现场时，他和他的父亲正在走出去。
They were both crying.
他们都哭了。
And I heard my father-in-law, suegro, telling him, "Lo siento mijo, lo hice por tu bien." I'm sorry, son.
我听到我的岳父 suegro 告诉他：“Lo siento mijo, lo hice por tu bien。”对不起，儿子。
I did it for your benefit.
我这么做是为了你的利益。
And I just-- my heart sank.
我只是——我的心沉了下去。
And I feel bad now, because I literally unloaded on my father-in-law.
我现在感觉很糟糕，因为我真的向我的岳父倾诉了。
I told him off.
我告诉他了。
And of course, Dad just says, we did it because we thought it was best for you, to give you a better opportunity.
当然，爸爸只是说，我们这样做是因为我们认为这对你来说是最好的，给你一个更好的机会。
And he has had a great opportunity.
他有一个很好的机会。
If it wasn't for what they did, I wouldn't have him, and I wouldn't have my kids.
如果没有他们的所作所为，我就不会拥有他，也不会拥有我的孩子。
I'm thankful for that.
我对此表示感谢。
But at any point, they could have said, wait, I need to tell you this.
但在任何时候，他们都可以说，等等，我需要告诉你这一点。
And they never did.
但他们从来没有这样做过。
Raul's sister saw it differently.
劳尔的姐姐却有不同的看法。
They don't blame their dad, Margarito.
他们不会责怪他们的父亲，马加里托。
They tried to convince Raul that what their father did was forgivable, even understandable.
他们试图让劳尔相信他们父亲的所作所为是可以原谅的，甚至是可以理解的。
Back then, unauthorized border crossings were an unremarkable fact of life.
那时，未经授权的过境是生活中一个不起眼的事实。
The border fence, the agents, surveillance blimps, that all came later, especially after 9/11.
边境围栏、特工、监视飞艇，这些都是后来才出现的，尤其是在 9/11 之后。
Margarito told me he regrets getting the fraudulent birth certificate now.
马加里托告诉我，他现在很后悔拿到了伪造的出生证明。
He prides himself on being honest.
他为自己的诚实感到自豪。
And he said he's ashamed to face Raul, but it didn't seem like such a serious offense at the time.
他说他很羞于面对劳尔，但当时看来这并不是什么严重的冒犯。
It's hard to get exact numbers, but one investigation in the 1990s found 900 fraudulent birth certificates registered by midwives in South Texas, same as Raul's.
很难获得确切的数字，但 20 世纪 90 年代的一项调查发现，德克萨斯州南部的助产士登记了 900 份伪造的出生证明，与劳尔的出生证明相同。
The undoing of Raul's citizenship set off a chain reaction in his family.
劳尔公民身份的取消在他的家庭中引发了连锁反应。
Raul's son, who he'd had from a previous marriage, had gotten his citizenship through Raul.
劳尔的儿子是他在前一段婚姻中所生的，通过劳尔获得了公民身份。
Here's Anita again.
安妮塔又来了。
What happens to him?
他会怎样？
What happens to my daughter-in-law and my grandkids if he gets deported?
如果他被驱逐出境，我的儿媳和我的孙子会怎样？
But people aren't thinking about that.
但人们并没有考虑这一点。
You know, it's that ripple effect.
你知道，这就是连锁反应。
Raul broke the news to his son, Raul Jr., that afternoon after he left the Starbucks.
那天下午，劳尔离开星巴克后，向他的儿子小劳尔透露了这个消息。
He explained the whole thing.
他解释了整个事情。
Raul's citizenship was no longer valid, so neither was Raul Jr.'s.
劳尔的公民身份不再有效，小劳尔的公民身份也不再有效。
Now they were both undocumented.
现在他们都没有证件。
Incredibly, Raul Jr. Had just applied to become a CBP officer himself.
令人难以置信的是，小劳尔本人刚刚申请成为一名 CBP 官员。
His interview was coming up in a couple of weeks.
他的采访将在几周后进行。
Now, of course, that wasn't going to happen.
当然，现在这不会发生了。
Raul's lawyer told me that when someone like Raul signs up to serve in the government, like by joining the military, or working for CBP, the government doesn't look too hard for reasons why they can't.
劳尔的律师告诉我，当像劳尔这样的人报名加入政府，比如参军或为美国海关与边境保护局工作时，政府并不会太仔细地寻找他们不能加入政府的理由。
It's when the person asks for something in return, like a green card for a brother, that the government takes a closer look.
当这个人要求一些回报时，比如给兄弟申请绿卡，政府就会仔细审查。
After that day at Starbucks, Raul and Anita immediately made a plan for how to fix all of this.
在星巴克的那天之后，劳尔和安妮塔立即制定了如何解决这一切的计划。
Raul could just apply for a green card, because his wife is a citizen.
劳尔可以申请绿卡，因为他的妻子是公民。
It would be a hassle, but they would get through it.
虽然这会很麻烦，但他们会克服的。
So they filled out the application.
于是他们填写了申请表。
And Raul, in his Raul way, was super upfront about everything.
劳尔以他的劳尔方式，对所有事情都非常坦率。
He knew what he was up against.
他知道自己要面对的是什么。
He'd made a false claim to US citizenship, said he was an American when he really wasn't.
他谎称自己是美国公民，声称自己是美国人，但实际上他不是。
But there's a clause in the US immigration code that says if he didn't do it knowingly, the government can exercise discretion.
但美国移民法中有一项条款规定，如果他不是故意这样做的，政府可以行使自由裁量权。
He and Anita were hoping that USCIS, the agency that issues green cards, would see this all as a big mix-up, granting the exception, and they would be done.
他和安妮塔希望美国公民及移民服务局（颁发绿卡的机构）将这一切视为一个大混乱，给予例外，然后他们就完成了。
They thought it would happen quickly, actually, which wasn't the case.
他们认为这会很快发生，但事实并非如此。
For a long time, they didn't hear anything-- so long they started to get nervous.
很长一段时间，他们都没有听到任何声音——时间太长了，他们开始紧张起来。
They started to look for help from public officials.
他们开始向政府官员寻求帮助。
After all, Raul is a veteran law enforcement.
毕竟，劳尔是一名经验丰富的执法人员。
They reached out to their congressman, then Ted Cruz, the senator.
他们联系了国会议员，然后联系了参议员特德·克鲁兹。
That's not the full list.
这不是完整的列表。
I told him the other day.
前几天我告诉他了。
I said, you know what?
我说，你知道吗？
I said, we both voted for Trump.
我说，我们都投票给特朗普了。
Why don't we call him and say, hey, help me out, pres.
我们为什么不打电话给他说，嘿，帮帮我吧，总统。
I voted for you.
我投票给你了。
And I said, ah, no, better not.
我说，啊，不，最好不要。
He might come down and deport you.
他可能会下来并驱逐你。
And then where would we be?
那么我们会在哪里呢？
Even at the AOC, the Ocasio-Cortez, I sent her a message before we contacted you.
即使在 AOC，Ocasio-Cortez，我在联系您之前也给她发了一条消息。
She never responded.
她始终没有回应。
Everywhere they looked, people were turning their backs.
目光所及之处，人们都转过身去。
That thing about how customs officers aren't supposed to hang out with undocumented people, that was Raul now.
关于海关官员不应该与无证人员一起出去玩的事情，现在是劳尔的。
So all his friends, the co-workers he referred to as family, they almost all abandoned him.
所以他所有的朋友，他称之为家人的同事，几乎都抛弃了他。
In theory, his wife Anita shouldn't even be hanging out with him.
理论上，他的妻子安妮塔根本不应该和他一起出去玩。
One person who did reach out to him-- that lady who used to bust his chops in the bridge when he was a kid.
确实有一个人向他伸出了援手——那个在他小时候曾在桥上摔倒的女士。
Raul explained to my producer, Nadia Reiman.
劳尔向我的制片人纳迪亚·雷曼解释道。
She thought I was having financial troubles, and so she called me up, and she offered to give me money.
她认为我遇到了经济困难，所以她给我打电话，并提出要给我钱。
But she didn't say anything to you about, like, you know, your citizenship or anything like that?
但她没有对你说任何关于你的公民身份之类的事情？
No, I told her.
不，我告诉她。
I told her, I guess you were right.
我告诉她，我想你是对的。
What did she say?
她说什么？
Raul Rodriguez She just started laughing.
劳尔·罗德里格斯 她刚刚开始笑。
She says, ah, Raul, don't say that.
她说，啊，劳尔，别这么说。
Another friend who stood by Raul and still sees him is John A.
另一位支持劳尔并至今仍然见到他的朋友是约翰·A·劳尔 (John A.
Garcia, the Jag.
加西亚，美洲虎。
It's his initials.
这是他名字的首字母。
They met for breakfast at a Mexican place across the street from an immigration detention center for kids.
他们在儿童移民拘留中心街对面的一家墨西哥餐厅见面吃早餐。
The Jag is allowed to see Raul, because he's retired.
美洲虎可以见到劳尔，因为他已经退役了。
He left customs last year.
他去年离开海关。
He said it was too stressful.
他说压力太大了。
He wanted something more relaxed, so he became a drill sergeant at a boot camp for kids who get in trouble.
他想要更轻松的事情，所以他成为了一个为遇到麻烦的孩子设立的新兵训练营的教官。
They gossip about work, who got a promotion, about that guy with the dog breath.
他们闲聊工作、谁升职了、还有那个口里有狗味的家伙。
And the Jag's encounter with that woman in the cargo lane.
还有捷豹在货道上与那个女人的相遇。
You remember la flaquita?
你还记得拉弗拉基塔吗？
In Los Indios?
在洛斯印第奥斯？
Oh, she did.
哦，她做到了。
Nhombre.
诺姆布雷。
John Garcia Yeah.
约翰·加西亚 是的。
Ooh, she just lit up the freaking dynamite, man.
哦，她刚刚点燃了那该死的炸药，伙计。
I was coming back.
我正要回来。
So much drama.
这么多戏剧。
Eventually, after about 40 minutes, they finally start talking about Raul's situation, about how he's afraid to even leave the house.
最终，大约 40 分钟后，他们终于开始谈论劳尔的处境，谈论他甚至不敢离开家。
Like right now, I don't have any status at all.
就像现在一样，我根本就没有任何地位。
I can get stopped right now, and I can get deported, pretty much, or set up for deportation.
我现在就可以被拦住，几乎可以被驱逐出境，或者准备被驱逐出境。
It's on my side, se ve un poquito mas.
它就在我这边，se ve un poquito mas。
It's a little bit more difficult to deal with because, if I get stopped by Border Patrol right now, I'm a goner.
这有点难处理，因为如果我现在被边境巡逻队拦住，我就完蛋了。
I have no status.
我没有地位。
So right now, can I really go out?
那么现在我真的可以出去吗？
I go out, but I'm looking over my shoulder.
我出去了，但我回头看。
[BLEEP] John Garcia You're in the same boat, you know?
[BLEEP] 约翰·加西亚 (John Garcia) 你也有同样的处境，知道吗？
Exactly.
确切地。
Jeremy Raff Raul tells the Jag he's been waiting way too long for an answer on his green card.
杰里米·拉夫·劳尔 (Jeremy Raff Raul) 告诉美洲虎队，他等待绿卡的答复已经太久了。
He's starting to get really frustrated.
他开始变得非常沮丧。
He feels like the government's singling him out because he was a customs officer.
他觉得政府因为他是一名海关官员而孤立了他。
He thinks they're trying to cover up that they employed an undocumented immigrant by mistake for so long.
他认为他们试图掩盖他们长期错误地雇用一名无证移民的事实。
He says this over and over.
他一遍又一遍地说这句话。
He said it to me lots of times.
他对我说过很多次了。
But the Jag's not sure he's right.
但美洲虎不确定他是对的。
He says, maybe the government wants to show they don't give anyone preferential treatment.
他说，也许政府想表明他们不会给予任何人优惠待遇。
Unfortunately, if it ever comes out, they're probably going to have to show that, hey, well, we gave him what he deserved like everybody else, you know?
不幸的是，如果它最终出来，他们可能不得不证明，嘿，好吧，我们给了他像其他人一样应得的东西，你知道吗？
What if he breaks the law?
如果他触犯法律怎么办？
We're going to give him an exception.
我们打算给他一个例外。
Everybody is going to say, wait a minute.
每个人都会说，等一下。
You can't do that.
你不能那样做。
The Jag does try to make Raul feel better.
美洲虎确实试图让劳尔感觉更好。
He tells him he's sure he'll get US citizenship, eventually.
他告诉他，他确信他最终会获得美国公民身份。
He asked Raul if he's talking to his dad.
他问劳尔是否正在和他父亲说话。
He isn't.
他不是。
The Jag says he should.
美洲虎说他应该这么做。
But ultimately, what leaves an impression on me is that he talks about Raul's case like any other, like an unfortunate undocumented person.
但最终，给我留下的印象是，他像其他人一样谈论劳尔的案件，就像一个不幸的无证人一样。
Raul sits there, taking it all in, but looking like he doesn't really agree.
劳尔坐在那里，将这一切都看在眼里，但看起来他并不真正同意。
Raul and Anita had been waiting for nine months when they finally got called in for the green card interview.
劳尔和安妮塔等了九个月才终于接到绿卡面试的通知。
Anita said it was a jarring experience.
安妮塔说这是一次不愉快的经历。
These were officers like the guys they both worked with, who were the first ones to jump in when things got tough.
这些警官就像他们一起工作的人一样，当事情变得困难时，他们是第一个挺身而出的人。
They'd had each other's backs for years.
多年来他们一直互相支持。
If anyone would get that Raul had done nothing wrong, it would be them.
如果有人认为劳尔没有做错任何事，那就是他们了。
But that's not what happened.
但事实并非如此。
We were treated like criminals.
我们被当作罪犯对待。
They took a sworn statement from each of us.
他们听取了我们每个人的宣誓声明。
They took two from him, like they were trying to trip him up, or trip me up, or something.
他们从他身上拿走了两个，就像他们想绊倒他，或者绊倒我，或者什么的。
And I don't blame the specific officers that did the interview.
我并不责怪接受采访的具体官员。
You do what you're told.
你按照别人告诉你的去做。
If I didn't need my federal job, I would have told them all to go to hell.
如果我不需要联邦工作，我就会告诉他们都见鬼去吧。
It's about as dramatic a reversal as you could imagine.
这是你能想象到的戏剧性逆转。
Raul was a hard ass, rule following law enforcement officer who'd learned he'd been violating the very rules he'd been enforcing for almost 20 years.
劳尔是一位严格遵守规则的执法人员，他发现自己违反了自己近 20 年来一直执行的规则。
Did it change him?
这改变了他吗？
Did he see things differently?
他对事物的看法有什么不同吗？
Did the rules seem fair, now that he's on the receiving end of them?
既然他是这些规则的接受者，这些规则看起来公平吗？
We talked about this a lot.
我们对此谈了很多。
Raul says the cases he's thinking about now are the ones where he stuck to the rules and didn't give people a break.
劳尔说，他现在考虑的案件是他遵守规则、不给人们喘息机会的案件。
And as a result, they suffered, badly.
结果，他们遭受了严重的痛苦。
Like there's this one case, a brother and a sister, they were both really young.
就像这个例子，一对兄弟和一个姐妹，他们都很年轻。
They were being smuggled.
他们被走私了。
We had to call the consulate and arrange transportation back to their home countries.
我们不得不打电话给领事馆并安排返回他们祖国的交通。
It turns out that this little boy, he was coming to donate an organ to his sister, who was dying in Houston.
原来，这个小男孩，他是来给他在休斯敦垂死的妹妹捐献器官的。
He was going to donate one of his kidneys, and we couldn't even let him through to save this little girl's life.
他要捐献他的一个肾脏，我们甚至不能让他通过来挽救这个小女孩的生命。
And the little boy was like, man, I gotta go.
小男孩说，伙计，我得走了。
I have to go.
我得走了。
And they said, no, he can't.
他们说，不，他不能。
And we had to turn him back.
我们不得不让他回去。
He starts crying, and crying, and crying.
他开始哭，哭，哭。
And, what's wrong?
还有，怎么了？
Hey, what's going on?
嘿，发生什么事了？
Why are you crying?
你为什么哭？
He said, I left my Bible over there.
他说，我把圣经落在那儿了。
We'll just give you another one.
我们再给你一份。
He said, no, no, that's my Bible.
他说，不，不，那是我的圣经。
[EMOTIONAL] Oh, man.
[情感]哦，伙计。
[CRYING]
[哭泣]
At this point in the interview, Raul got out of his chair, got some water from the kitchen.
采访进行到这里，劳尔从椅子上站起来，从厨房拿了一些水。
I'm sorry, man.
对不起，伙计。
Jeremy Raff Take your time.
杰里米·拉夫慢慢来。
Take your time.
慢慢来。
Oh, man, just-- man, I haven't cried in a long time, dude.
哦，天哪，只是——天哪，我已经很久没有哭了，伙计。
You're good.
你很厉害。
Raul Rodriguez Anyway, I just had to turn him over.
劳尔·罗德里格斯 无论如何，我不得不把他翻过来。
And now I did, I feel like [BLEEP].
现在我做到了，我感觉像[BLEEP]。
He was doing it for a good reason.
他这样做是有充分理由的。
He was doing something-- he felt he was doing something good, and then he was being treated like a-- like that.
他在做某事——他觉得自己在做好事，然后他就被当作——那样对待。
You know?
你知道？
This is a story he's always felt bad about.
这是一个让他一直感到难过的故事。
But it feels worse now, I think, in part because he can relate to the kid a little more, to someone trying to do the right thing caught on the wrong side of the rules.
但我认为现在感觉更糟，部分原因是他可以与这个孩子有更多的联系，与一个试图做正确的事情但违反规则的人有更多的联系。
It's also a story where following the rules makes you do a thing that also feels very wrong.
这也是一个故事，遵守规则会让你做一件感觉非常错误的事情。
Yeah.
是的。
Jeremy Raff Because when you did these difficult things that you had to do-- deport a teen or turn back this organ donor child-- it was sort of like, essentially, the rules are the rules.
杰里米·拉夫 因为当你做这些必须做的困难事情时——驱逐一名青少年或遣返一名器官捐赠儿童——本质上，规则就是规则。
I can't do anything about it.
我对此无能为力。
And now that you're on the receiving end of that, do the rules seem more arbitrary to you, or meaningless, than they used to?
现在你已经成为了它的接收端，这些规则对你来说是否比以前更加武断，或者毫无意义？
No, they don't.
不，他们没有。
I still believe that the rules are the rules.
我仍然相信规则就是规则。
They still apply, and I have to abide by them.
它们仍然适用，我必须遵守它们。
I still have to follow the rules, regardless of what the outcome is or what happens.
无论结果如何或发生什么，我仍然必须遵守规则。
And that's the frustrating part, is that they've gone overboard on my case, on my situation.
令人沮丧的是，他们对我的案子、我的处境太过分了。
They're doing things differently with me, because of who I am.
由于我是谁，他们对我的做法有所不同。
USCIS won't comment on ongoing cases.
美国移民局不会对正在进行的案件发表评论。
But I ran this by four immigration lawyers, and they said everyone is being treated badly.
但我由四位移民律师负责，他们说每个人都受到了恶劣的对待。
They didn't think Raul was being treated worse than anyone else.
他们并不认为劳尔受到的待遇比其他人更差。
One in Texas, who has a lot of experience in this exact kind of case said, sure, two years ago, Raul would have gotten a green card.
德克萨斯州一位在此类案件方面拥有丰富经验的人表示，当然，两年前，劳尔就会获得绿卡。
But since President Trump, basically everyone with fraudulent birth certificates is denied.
但自特朗普总统以来，基本上所有持有伪造出生证明的人都会被拒绝。
In fact, if anything, she said, he's lucky they didn't lock him up or put him into deportation proceedings.
事实上，她说，如果有的话，他很幸运，他们没有把他关起来或把他送入驱逐程序。
There's lots of ways this is hard for Raul.
对于劳尔来说，这在很多方面都很困难。
His wife, Anita, she told me she thinks a lot about how Raul never wanted to grow up in Texas with his aunt and uncle and cousins, how, if he'd had it his way, he would have stayed in Mexico with his mom and dad working on the farm.
他的妻子安妮塔告诉我，她想了很多关于劳尔从来不想和他的叔叔阿姨和表兄弟姐妹一起在德克萨斯州长大的事情，如果他按照自己的方式行事，他会如何留在墨西哥和他的父母一起在农场工作。
In the end, somehow the choices his dad made deprived Raul of a home on either side of the border.
最终，不知何故，他父亲做出的选择剥夺了劳尔在边境两侧的家。
All those years that my husband was here growing up with his aunt and uncle, suffering without his mom and dad-- when he'd miss his mom, he'd always tell me, I wish I had been born in Mexico, because then I could have stayed with my mom and dad.
这些年来，我的丈夫和他的姑妈和叔叔一起长大，在没有父母的情况下受苦——当他想念他的妈妈时，他总是告诉我，我希望我出生在墨西哥，因为那样我就可以和我的父母待在一起。
And now at the age of 50, he finds out that he could have had that.
现在，50 岁的他发现自己本可以拥有这样的东西。
And they lied to him this entire time.
他们一直在骗他。
It's like, now what?
就像，现在怎么办？
Was it because they didn't want me?
是因为他们不要我了吗？
Raul hasn't talked to his dad in months, since that day at the Starbucks.
自从在星巴克的那天起，劳尔已经好几个月没有和他父亲说过话了。
It totally changed how I see him now, to where I thought he was my hero.
这完全改变了我现在对他的看法，我认为他是我的英雄。
Even though I didn't grow up with him, I took him to heart.
尽管我没有和他一起长大，但我把他放在心上。
I strongly believed in what he told me and what he said.
我坚信他告诉我的和他所说的。
And one of the things was that, better be as honest as you can I don't know.
其中一件事是，最好尽可能诚实，我不知道。
I don't know if I'll ever see my dad again after this.
我不知道此后我是否还能再见到我的父亲。
Has he reached out?
他伸手了吗？
Raul Rodriguez No, not at all.
劳尔·罗德里格斯 不，一点也不。
I don't think I want to see him ever again.
我想我不想再见到他了。
Months tick by, then a year, with no decision by the government about Raul's green card application.
几个月过去了，一年过去了，政府对劳尔的绿卡申请还没有做出任何决定。
Then on October 29th of last year, Raul got a letter from the government.
然后去年10月29日，劳尔收到了政府的一封信。
His green card application was denied.
他的绿卡申请被拒绝。
They said Raul had made a false claim to US citizenship, said he was an American when he really wasn't.
他们说劳尔虚假地声称自己是美国公民，说他是美国人，但实际上他不是。
It also pointed out that he'd committed voter fraud by voting as an undocumented immigrant.
它还指出，他以无证移民身份投票，犯下了选民欺诈行为。
Of course, Raul thought he was a citizen at the time.
当然，劳尔当时认为自己是公民。
He thought voting was the right thing to do.
他认为投票是正确的做法。
Raul's world has shrunk down to a few acres that he and Anita own.
劳尔的世界已经缩小到他和安妮塔拥有的几英亩土地。
He keeps goats, cattle, a bunch of chickens.
他养山羊、牛和一群鸡。
He watches the news in the morning while he walks on the treadmill.
早上他一边在跑步机上行走一边看新闻。
His badge and integrity award are still above the TV.
他的徽章和诚信奖还在电视上方。
He and Anita had dreamed of retiring in their 50s and driving around the country in an RV, maybe visiting their kids at college, or on a base if they decided to join the military.
他和安妮塔曾梦想在 50 多岁时退休，开着房车环游全国，也许可以探望正在上大学的孩子，如果他们决定参军，也可以去一个基地。
Now they can't leave town.
现在他们不能离开城镇。
There are Border Patrol checkpoints on all the major roads heading out of the valley.
所有通往山谷的主要道路上都设有边境巡逻检查站。
After a career of working double shifts and overnights, he finally has time to himself to think-- maybe too much.
在经历了两班倒和通宵工作的职业生涯之后，他终于有时间思考——也许太多了。
The stress of being undocumented is getting to him.
无证身份给他带来的压力越来越大。
He only sleeps for two or three hours at a time.
他一次只睡两三个小时。
He and Anita started fighting.
他和安妮塔开始打架。
Raul worried for a while they were headed for divorce.
劳尔一度担心他们会离婚。
His lawyer told me that Raul could be in this limbo for three or four more years, before exhausting his appeals.
他的律师告诉我，劳尔可能会再陷入这种困境三四年，然后再用尽他的上诉。
Raul told me he's thought of just giving up and leaving.
劳尔告诉我，他想过放弃并离开。
It would be drastic, but it would bring this to an end.
这将是激烈的，但它会结束这一切。
If the courts ultimately deny him a green card and he's ordered to leave the country, he told me he would go.
如果法院最终拒绝给他绿卡并且他被勒令离开这个国家，他告诉我他会离开。
He'd obey the law.
他会遵守法律。
He said, I'm going to practice what I preach.
他说，我会实践我所宣讲的。
He'd move to Mexico.
他会搬到墨西哥。
As a former border officer who'd arrested smugglers, confiscated loads of drugs, he's worried the cartels might come after him.
作为一名曾逮捕走私犯、没收大量毒品的前边境官员，他担心贩毒集团可能会追捕他。
They would still see him as a US Customs and Border Protection guy, the way he wishes everyone else would.
他们仍然会把他视为美国海关和边境保护局的人员，就像他希望其他人那样。
Jeremy Raff is a reporter for The Atlantic.
杰里米·拉夫是《大西洋月刊》的记者。
He also did a print version of this story and a short video documentary where you can see Raul and Anita.
他还制作了这个故事的印刷版和一部短片纪录片，您可以在其中看到劳尔和安妮塔。
It's at The Atlantic website.
它在大西洋网站上。
[MUSIC - "WHERE SHOULD I GO (PERTSONA)" BY ANEGURIA]
[音乐 - “我应该去哪里（PERTSONA）”，作者：ANEGURIA]
Well, our program was produced today by Lilly Sullivan.
嗯，我们今天的节目是由莉莉·沙利文制作的。
Our staff includes Bim Adewunmi, Elna Baker, Emanuele Berry, Susan Burton, Ben Calhoun, Sean Cole, Neil Drumming, Noor Gill, Damien Graves, Seth Lind, Miki Meek, Lina Misitzis, Stowe Nelson, Katehrine Rae Mondo, Nadia Reiman, Christopher Svetala, Matt Tierney, Nancy Updike, and Julie Whitaker.
我们的员工包括 Bim Adewunmi、Elna Baker、Emanuele Berry、Susan Burton、Ben Calhoun、Sean Cole、Neil Drumming、Noor Gill、Damien Graves、Seth Lind、Miki Meek、Lina Misitzis、Stowe Nelson、Katehrine Rae Mondo、Nadia Reiman、Christopher Svetala、Matt Tierney、Nancy Updike 和 Julie Whitaker。
Our managing editor is Diane Wu.
我们的总编辑是 Diane Wu。
Our executive editor is David Kestenbaum.
我们的执行编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。
Special thanks today to Tonya Medley, Jorge Just, Jaime Diez, Lisa Brodyaga, Jodi Goodwin, Dan Kowalski, Stephen Yale-Loeher, Rachel Rosenbloom, and Laura Bingham.
今天特别感谢 Tonya Medley、Jorge Just、Jaime Diez、Lisa Brodyaga、Jodi Goodwin、Dan Kowalski、Stephen Yale-Loeher、Rachel Rosenbloom 和 Laura Bingham。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org, where you can listen to our archive of nearly 700 shows for absolutely free.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org，您可以在其中完全免费收听我们收藏的近 700 个节目。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
Everything he knows about management, he told me he learned from one of the actors in West Side Story.
他告诉我，他所知道的有关管理的一切都是从《西区故事》的一位演员那里学到的。
He told me you take a bottle, you break the bottle, and with this, whatever is left, you just put in their face.
他告诉我，你拿一个瓶子，打破瓶子，然后，剩下的东西，你就可以放在他们的脸上。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。