689: Digging Up the Bones - This American Life

689：挖骨头

689 · This American Life · 原文

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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #689 | December 6, 2019 689: Digging Up the Bones Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.

00:00 00:00 文字记录分享此美国生活生活伙伴如何收听剧集推荐关于概述员工公告奖学金工作音乐在路上制作电台常见问题解答提交商品联系我们我们的其他节目商品关注我们生活伙伴订阅我们的时事通讯整集切换音频和文字记录同步文字记录 | 内容第 689 集 | 2019 年 12 月 6 日 689：挖掘骨头注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。

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如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。

Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.

文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。

Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.

请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。

Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass Some people, they read those old stories from 3,000 years ago, The Iliad and The Odyssey.

Prologue：序言艾拉·格拉斯有些人，他们读过那些三千年前的古老故事，《伊利亚特》和《奥德赛》。

They read them in school, and it just gets to them.

他们在学校里读过这些书，这对他们来说很有意义。

One of the producers here at our show, Emanuele, was like that.

我们节目的制片人之一埃马努埃莱就是这样的人。

I loved the heroes, Hector.

我喜欢英雄们，赫克托。

I thought Agamemnon was such a diva.

我认为阿伽门农真是一位女主角。

I loved The Aeneid.

我喜欢《埃涅阿斯纪》。

We had to translate it in my Latin class.

我们必须在拉丁语课上翻译它。

And in addition to translating passages, I decided to make, like, a 9x3 foot mural out of magazine paper depicting Aeneas' journey into hell.

除了翻译段落之外，我还决定用杂志纸制作一幅 9x3 英尺的壁画，描绘埃涅阿斯的地狱之旅。

Wait, when you say magazine paper, you mean you're cutting letters out of a magazine, like a serial killer?

等等，当你说杂志纸时，你的意思是你正在从杂志上剪下字母，就像连环杀手一样？

I mean, I was-- no, I mean, I was meticulously ripping teeny pieces of different colors of magazine paper and making, like, a mosaic basically.

我的意思是，我是——不，我的意思是，我小心翼翼地撕下不同颜色的杂志纸，然后基本上制作出马赛克。

Oh, I see.

我懂了。

Emanuele Berry And I remember that J.Lo was on the mural for some reason, because she was wearing, like, a white dress that kind of looked Grecian, so.

Emanuele Berry 我记得 J.Lo 出于某种原因出现在壁画上，因为她穿着一件白色连衣裙，看起来有点希腊风格。

It was like a toga-y dress.

它就像一件长袍。

Emanuele Berry Yeah, yeah, yeah.

埃马努埃莱·贝瑞是啊，是啊，是啊。

So she got to be Dido in hell.

所以她就是地狱里的黛朵。

When a teacher assigned a 20-page research paper on any subject in the world, like they could do anything at all, it was obvious to Emanuele what to do-- the story of Troy, the place where the Trojan War happened, the walled city that they pulled the Trojan horse into.

当老师布置一篇关于世界上任何主题的 20 页研究论文时，就像他们可以做任何事情一样，埃马努埃莱很明显要做什么——特洛伊的故事，特洛伊战争发生的地方，他们把特洛伊木马拖入的城墙城市。

And in doing research for this project, I found out about this guy named Heinrich Schliemann.

在为这个项目做研究的过程中，我发现了这个名叫海因里希·施利曼（Heinrich Schliemann）的人。

Heinrich Schliemann, a man who also read those old stories and got obsessed.

海因里希·施利曼（Heinrich Schliemann），一个也读过那些古老故事并着迷的人。

He's born in Germany in the 1800s.

他出生于 1800 年代的德国。

He's like a business man, a merchant in Russia.

他就像一个商人，一个俄罗斯的商人。

And then he moved to California during the Gold Rush and opened a bank.

然后他在淘金热期间搬到加利福尼亚州并开设了一家银行。

It's said that he would carry around, like, copies of Homer.

据说他会随身携带荷马的副本。

And he taught himself ancient Greek.

他自学了古希腊语。

Like in two years, he taught himself ancient Greek, which is insane to me, just so he could read the books in the language of origin.

就像两年前，他自学了古希腊语，这对我来说很疯狂，只是为了他能用原始语言阅读书籍。

Anyway, but basically, he amasses this huge fortune.

无论如何，但基本上，他积累了这笔巨额财富。

And once he has this fortune, he decides that he's going to find Troy.

一旦他有了这笔财富，他就决定去寻找特洛伊。

At the time, people weren't sure if it was a real place or just, like, a story, like Atlantis.

当时，人们不确定这是一个真实的地方，还是只是一个故事，比如亚特兰蒂斯。

And I know this is kind of a dumb question, but in that period, did archaeologists even exist?

我知道这是一个愚蠢的问题，但在那个时期，考古学家存在吗？

Was that even a job yet?

那还是一份工作吗？

It's not really a job.

这并不是真正的工作。

It's like a very new field, this whole idea of digging up the past.

这就像一个非常新的领域，挖掘过去的整个想法。

And so there are like sort of hobbyists dabbling in it.

所以有一些爱好者涉足其中。

But these hobbyists by the 1870s have figured out from various geographic clues that Homer gives in the text about Troy's proximity to the Dardanelles and to Mount Ida.

但到了 1870 年代，这些爱好者已经从荷马在文本中提供的各种地理线索推测出特洛伊靠近达达尼尔海峡和艾达山。

They figured out where a likely location for the city might be.

他们找出了这座城市可能的位置。

It was in the place that we now call Turkey.

那是在我们现在称为土耳其的地方。

And at that spot was kind of a big mound of dirt.

那个地方有一个大土堆。

And Schliemann gets going.

施利曼开始行动。

So he starts to dig.

于是他开始挖掘。

He hires dozens and dozens of workers.

他雇用了数十名工人。

And when he's digging, he starts to find basically like these layers of cities that are sort of built on top of each other.

当他挖掘时，他开始发现基本上就像这些城市层一样，它们是建立在彼此之上的。

So there's bits of pottery and foundations of buildings.

所以有一些陶器和建筑物的地基。

When a city burned to the ground, they would just build another city right on top of it.

当一座城市被烧毁时，他们就会在上面建造另一座城市。

Right.

正确的。

Emanuele Berry But none of them are what he's looking for.

Emanuele Berry 但他们都不是他要找的人。

What he is looking for is he wants to find basically gold, silver, and bronze.

他所寻找的基本上是金、银和铜。

That's the thing he thinks is going to be the signifier that this is Troy.

他认为这将成为特洛伊的标志。

Because he's thinking of this treasure rich city that Homer describes in The Iliad.

因为他想到了荷马在《伊利亚特》中描述的这座宝藏丰富的城市。

And he's also thinking that, well, it's got to be further down.

他还认为，好吧，它必须进一步下降。

It has to be at the bottom, right?

它必须在底部，对吗？

Troy is going to be at the bottom of this pile.

特洛伊将处于这一堆的底部。

And so he keeps digging.

所以他继续挖掘。

And he keeps finding more and more layers with cities.

他不断发现城市的层次越来越多。

Yes.

是的。

And then he gets to the bottom of these piles of cities.

然后他到达了这些城市的底部。

And that's where he finds this treasure.

这就是他发现这个宝藏的地方。

He finds exactly what he's looking for.

他准确地找到了他正在寻找的东西。

He finds this gold.

他找到了这块金子。

He finds the silver.

他找到了银子。

He finds bronze.

他发现了青铜。

He calls it Priam's treasure, Priam being the king of Troy in The Iliad.

他称其为普里阿摩斯的宝藏，普里阿摩斯是《伊利亚特》中的特洛伊国王。

He says--

他说——

But there's nothing on it that says, like, Priam's--

但上面没有任何内容，比如普里阿摩斯的——

He didn't write his name.

他没有写自己的名字。

Ira Glass You've reached Priam's bank or something.

艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：你已经到达了普里阿姆的银行之类的地方。

No, OK.

不，好吧。

No. No, nothing like that.

不，不，没有那样的事。

Ira Glass He doesn't have hard proof that it's Troy.

艾拉·格拉斯：他没有确凿的证据证明这是特洛伊。

He doesn't find writing, which would have really helped.

他找不到写作，这确实有帮助。

Can I ask one question?

我可以问一个问题吗？

Yeah.

是的。

Ira Glass Did he find a huge wooden horse?

艾拉·格拉斯他找到了一匹巨大的木马吗？

'Cause that would have nailed it.

因为那样就成功了。

No huge wooden horse.

没有巨大的木马。

Wouldn't have survived.

本来就无法生存。

Fine.

美好的。

Today's show is about the inadvertent things that happen when you start digging up the past.

今天的节目是关于当你开始挖掘过去时无意中发生的事情。

And this is the point where Schliemann's story gets more complicated.

这就是施利曼的故事变得更加复杂的一点。

Schliemann announces to the world that he's found the city that Homer was writing about.

施利曼向全世界宣布，他找到了荷马所描写的这座城市。

He's found Troy.

他找到了特洛伊。

He becomes internationally famous.

他变得国际知名。

But the truth of the situation is, is that the Troy at the bottom of the pile, with all this treasure and all this gold, that actually was not Troy.

但事实是，位于最底层的特洛伊，拥有所有这些宝藏和所有这些黄金，实际上不是特洛伊。

It was not Homer's Troy, at least.

至少这不是荷马笔下的特洛伊。

Like, that's from thousands of years before Troy would have even happened.

就像，那是特洛伊发生之前几千年的事。

The Troy that he was looking for was actually one of the cities that he had just dug through and destroyed in the process of digging through it.

他要找的特洛伊，其实就是他刚刚挖掘出来的城市之一，并且在挖掘的过程中被毁掉了。

So in other words, he's just digging down.

换句话说，他只是在往下挖。

He reaches Troy.

他到达了特洛伊。

He's like, no, no, this isn't it-- throws it on the side as, like, debris.

他说，不，不，这不是它——把它扔到一边，就像碎片一样。

Yeah.

是的。

And basically, he destroyed a big chunk of the ancient city in trying to find the city.

基本上，他为了寻找这座城市而摧毁了这座古城的一大块。

The Troy he was looking for archaeologists understand now was just three layers down, and he dug nine layers down.

他要找的特洛伊城现在考古学家知道只有三层，而他却挖了九层。

So what this means is that for any archaeologist today who's trying to figure out anything that's going on at Troy, he kind of screwed them over.

所以这意味着，对于今天任何试图弄清楚特洛伊发生的事情的考古学家来说，他有点搞砸了。

I called one of these guys.

我给其中一个人打了电话。

His name is Brian Rose, and he was the co-director of excavations at Troy for 25 years.

他的名字叫布莱恩·罗斯 (Brian Rose)，担任特洛伊发掘工作的联合主管长达 25 年。

He's not a fan of Schliemann.

他不是施利曼的粉丝。

So he didn't really know what he was doing.

所以他根本不知道自己在做什么。

So there's a lot of information that we've lost on account of his speed and digging.

由于他的速度和挖掘能力，我们丢失了很多信息。

When I look through his notebooks, he'll say something like, "Byzantine building and debris found today, dismantled." Now that doesn't tell me if it's early, middle, late Byzantine, what the building looked like.

当我翻阅他的笔记本时，他会说“今天发现的拜占庭建筑和残骸，已拆除。”现在这并不能告诉我这是拜占庭早期、中期、晚期，还是这座建筑的样子。

Was it many rooms?

有很多房间吗？

Was it only one room?

只有一间房间吗？

What did he find there?

他在那里发现了什么？

Or was it just debris that was in his way?

Debris that was in his way that Schliemann would just dig up and throw in a pile on the side.

施利曼会把挡道的碎片挖出来，扔到一边一堆。

Yeah, Schliemann excavated extensively, and he had to put the earth that he removed somewhere.

是的，施利曼进行了广泛的挖掘，他必须把挖出来的土放在某个地方。

Schliemann dumped all the earth from his trenches in the areas where I want to dig.

施利曼把他战壕中的所有土都倒在了我想挖掘的地方。

And part of the reason that he wants to dig in that area is because there might be writing there.

他想在那个区域挖掘的部分原因是因为那里可能有文字。

And so Schliemann has now made that very hard.

所以施利曼现在让这变得非常困难。

Yeah, because there's all this dirt, all these uprooted ruins that are just on top of that area.

是的，因为那里有很多泥土，所有这些连根拔起的废墟就位于该地区的顶部。

And then it would take years and, Brian says, technology that doesn't even exist now to dig it up without doing more damage.

布莱恩说，然后需要花费数年时间，而且现在还不存在的技术才能在不造成更多损害的情况下将其挖掘出来。

So you have 20 meters of dump through which you would have to go in order to get to a deposit that might have writing of Late Bronze Age date.

因此，您必须穿过 20 米长的垃圾场才能到达可能刻有青铜时代晚期日期的矿床。

That's something I'd love to be able to do.

这是我很乐意做的事情。

But for now, it's just too monumental an undertaking to do it.

但就目前而言，这是一项艰巨的任务。

One of the things that has always kind of bugged me about this story is that before Schliemann died, they actually figured out that he was wrong.

这个故事一直困扰着我的一件事是，在施利曼去世之前，他们实际上发现他错了。

Oh, they did?

哦，他们做到了？

Emanuele Berry Yeah, but he's still remembered to this day for discovering Troy.

埃马努埃莱·贝里（Emanuele Berry）是的，但他至今仍因发现特洛伊而被人们铭记。

And one of the things I remember from that paper I wrote was that I really ended up mad at him.

我从我写的那篇论文中记得的一件事是，我最终真的生他的气了。

Like-- [LAUGHS] I was mad at him for, like--

Like you were going to go visit Troy, and he messed it up for you.

就像你要去参观特洛伊，他却把事情搞砸了。

Basically, kind of.

基本上，有点。

But when I talked with Brian about it, he's kind of zen about it.

但当我和布莱恩谈论这件事时，他对此表现出一种禅宗的态度。

I would certainly express frustration with Schliemann in the same way that an archaeologist digging at Troy in 100 years would express frustration with me.

我肯定会对施利曼表示沮丧，就像考古学家在 100 年后在特洛伊挖掘一样对我表示沮丧。

Oh, I like his attitude.

哦，我喜欢他的态度。

Emanuele Berry Yeah, I mean, I think when you're an archaeologist, you kind of have to take the long view.

埃马努埃莱·贝里（Emanuele Berry）是的，我的意思是，我认为当你是一名考古学家时，你必须放眼长远。

You're aware that people are going to come after you, and they're going to know more than you.

你知道人们会追随你，他们会比你知道更多。

So you're very aware of your own limitations.

所以你非常清楚自己的局限性。

And that's actually our show today.

这实际上就是我们今天的节目。

Today on our program, we have all kinds of people going and digging up stuff from the past, full of hope, but definitely with their own limitations.

今天，在我们的节目中，各种各样的人都满怀希望地去挖掘过去的东西，但肯定也有自己的局限性。

And the search changes things.

From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.

来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Stay with us.

留在我们身边。

Act One, Family Plot.

第一幕，家庭情节。

We move now from the losers of the Trojan War to the winners-- or anyway, the descendants of the winners, the people of Greece.

现在我们从特洛伊战争的失败者转向胜利者——或者无论如何，胜利者的后裔，希腊人民。

Here's something you probably didn't know about Greece.

关于希腊，以下是你可能不了解的事情。

They don't have enough cemetery space.

And cremation is not very popular there.

So what they do is, when you die, you're buried in the ground.

所以他们所做的就是，当你死后，你会被埋在地下。

And then three or four years later, your family gets together and digs up your bones.

然后三四年后，你的家人聚在一起挖出你的骨头。

Get you out of the ground, give the space to somebody else.

让你离开地面，把空间给别人。

One of the producers of our show, Lina Misitzis, her parents were both born in Greece.

我们节目的制作人之一，Lina Misitzis，她的父母都出生在希腊。

And she traveled there in September with them to do this for the very first time.

九月份，她第一次和他们一起去那里做这件事。

We're in a rental car driving from Athens to a small village in the south called Stoupa.

我们乘坐租来的汽车从雅典前往南部一个名叫斯托帕的小村庄。

It's about four hours away.

My dad's driving.

我爸爸在开车。

I'm in the front seat.

我坐在前座。

Mom's in the back.

妈妈在后面。

We're on our way to Stoupa to exhume my grandmother, my father's mom.

我们正在前往斯图帕的路上挖掘我的祖母，我父亲的母亲。

My dad's talking about the cost of gas, how much money it'll cost to keep this car full of gas, also other things about gas.

我爸爸正在谈论汽油的费用，让这辆车充满汽油需要多少钱，还有其他有关汽油的事情。

There's no gas station here.

Lina Misitzis I recognize this conversation not for its content, but for its design.

Lina Misitzis 我认识这次对话不是因为它的内容，而是因为它的设计。

My dad, an extraordinarily kind and thoughtful person, he fills so much space with small talk.

我的父亲是一个非常善良和体贴的人，他用闲聊占据了很多空间。

I hate small talk.

我讨厌闲聊。

Today, September 19th, is my mom's 66th birthday.

今天，9月19日，是我妈妈的66岁生日。

We weren't supposed to exhume my grandmother on my mom's birthday.

我们不应该在我妈妈生日那天挖掘我的祖母。

It was supposed to happen tomorrow.

But because of forecasted rain, we're doing it today.

但由于预计会下雨，所以我们今天才这样做。

What a gift for my birthday.

Lina Misitzis This will not be the last time she brings up her birthday.

Lina Misitzis 这不会是她最后一次提起自己的生日。

My grandmother spent the last third of her life dying.

我的祖母在她生命的最后三分之一时间里一直在死去。

Her disorder was never successfully diagnosed.

It kind of looked like Parkinson's.

它看起来有点像帕金森氏症。

It kind of looked like Huntington's.

But it was neither of those things.

A caretaker, a distant cousin named Crisoula, would come and change her diapers twice a day, feed her baby food.

看护人是一位名叫克里苏拉的远房表亲，每天会过来给她换两次尿布，给她喂婴儿食品。

Growing up, I was kind of afraid of my grandma.

She'd lost her ability to speak, and she just kind of looked at me, and moaned, and cried.

她失去了说话的能力，只是看着我，呻吟着，哭着。

It's called chorea.

它被称为舞蹈病。

When you have it, you cannot control your movements.

当你拥有它时，你将无法控制自己的动作。

You have jerking, uncontrollable movements of your hands and face.

您的手和脸会出现抽搐、无法控制的动作。

And chorea is actually a Greek word, right?

Chorea, yeah.

舞蹈病，是的。

Chorea.

舞蹈病。

Mom That means I'm dancing.

It means I'm dancing, my mom says.

She's always answering questions for my dad.

她总是帮我爸爸回答问题。

I think he prefers it that way.

我想他更喜欢这样。

Mommy remembers better than I do, and I have to pay the toll now.

妈妈比我记得更清楚，我现在要交路费了。

Pay the toll.

缴纳过路费。

Lina Misitzis My mom didn't go with my dad to his mother's funeral.

Lina Misitzis 我妈妈没有和我爸爸一起去参加他母亲的葬礼。

He went alone.

他一个人去了。

I figured he'd be doing the second funeral, this reverse funeral, alone, too.

我想他也会独自举办第二场葬礼，这场相反的葬礼。

And while I don't know what this process looks like at all, the thought of my dad exhuming his mother's body by himself, it just sounded sad.

虽然我根本不知道这个过程是什么样的，但一想到我父亲亲自挖出他母亲的尸体，听起来就很悲伤。

[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Lina Misitzis And so a few months ago, I decided I wanted to go with him.

[非英语演讲] Lina Misitzis 几个月前，我决定和他一起去。

To be there for him.

陪伴在他身边。

In my fantasy of it I'd be by his side, holding his hand, patient, curious even.

在我的幻想中，我会站在他身边，握住他的手，耐心，甚至好奇。

Which isn't how it usually goes between us.

我们之间通常不是这样的。

My dad doesn't talk about his feelings too often.

我父亲不常谈论他的感受。

Half the time, I think he doesn't even know what they are.

有一半的时间，我认为他甚至不知道它们是什么。

But then when I'm around him, I get impatient.

但当我在他身边时，我就会变得不耐烦。

I guess this moment just seems really big, like a chance for us to be different with each other.

我想这一刻看起来真的很重要，就像我们彼此不同的机会。

But then when my mom found out that I was going, she decided that she would come, too.

但当我妈妈知道我要去时，她决定她也来。

She doesn't want to pass up a chance to see me.

她不想错过见我的机会。

She agrees to sit in the backseat while I try talking to my dad about what we're on our way to go do.

她同意坐在后座，而我试着和爸爸谈论我们要去做什么。

In general, I'm not very comfortable in cemeteries.

总的来说，我在墓地里不太舒服。

Right, most people are uncomfortable in cemeteries.

是的，大多数人在墓地里都会感到不舒服。

But for some reason, I just can't let it go.

但出于某种原因，我就是放不下它。

I don't believe so, no. You expect me to say more now.

我不相信，不。你现在希望我说更多。

I don't know what to say.

我不知道该说什么。

No, you're fine.

不，你很好。

You're fine.

你很好。

You don't have to say anything.

你不必说什么。

I'm driving, too.

我也在开车

Lina Misitzis You are driving.

Lina Misitzis 你正在开车。

This back and forth is so typical, it's practically scripted.

这种来回非常典型，几乎是照本宣科。

He tries to play along to engage.

他试图配合并参与。

But I never think it's enough.

但我永远认为这还不够。

I believe 1928.

我相信1928年。

Lina Misitzis Actually, she was born in 1925.

Lina Misitzis 实际上，她出生于 1925 年。

Was she a smoker?

她是烟民吗？

Dad No, she never smoked.

爸爸不，她从不抽烟。

Was she a drinker?

她是个酒鬼吗？

Dad I don't think she ever had any alcohol.

爸爸我想她从来没有喝过酒。

What did she do for fun?

她做了什么好玩的事？

Dad Cross stitch.

爸爸十字绣。

Cross stitch.

十字绣。

Lina Misitzis Did she have friends?

Lina Misitzis 她有朋友吗？

Very few.

很少。

Lina Misitzis Do you think she was depressed?

Lina Misitzis 你认为她很沮丧吗？

Um-- I guess so.

嗯——我想是这样。

I never thought in these terms at the time, but yeah, I guess now you mention it, I think so.

当时我从未考虑过这些问题，但是，是的，我想现在你提到它，我想是的。

Probably she was.

也许她是。

Was she a good mom?

她是一个好妈妈吗？

Dad I don't know.

爸爸我不知道。

I guess.

我猜。

Uh-oh.

呃哦。

What's wrong?

怎么了？

The check engine light comes on in the rental.

租赁时检查发动机灯亮起。

Check engine oil.

检查发动机油。

Lina Misitzis It derails the rest of the car ride, each conversation circling back to the potentially faulty engine.

莉娜·米西齐斯 (Lina Misitzis) 这让接下来的旅程脱轨，每次谈话都回到了可能有故障的发动机。

We pull up to his family's village at 2:00.

我们于 2:00 到达他家的村庄。

The woman who took care of my grandmother, Crisoula, is waiting for us in her yard.

照顾我祖母 Crisoula 的女人正在她的院子里等我们。

I haven't seen her in five or six years.

我已经有五六年没见过她了。

She brings us cool water, keeps remarking on how absolutely different I look.

她给我们带来了凉水，一直说我看起来有多么不同。

I wouldn't recognize you anywhere, she says.

我在任何地方都认不出你，她说。

Then a different family friend, Sotiroula, walks into the yard and joins us.

然后另一个家庭朋友索蒂罗拉走进院子加入我们。

You look exactly the same, she tells me.

你看起来一模一样，她告诉我。

You haven't aged at all.

你根本就没有变老。

So much of what there is to talk about is how old each of us is, what age looks like on us, and how we all wear it.

我们要讨论的很多内容是我们每个人的年龄、我们的年龄看起来是什么样的，以及我们都如何穿着它。

An hour later, we walk to the graveyard.

一个小时后，我们步行到墓地。

It's me, my mom, my dad, Crisoula, and Sotiroula.

这是我、我的妈妈、我的爸爸、克里苏拉和索蒂罗拉。

Crisoula is carrying recycled plastic water bottles full of vinegar.

Crisoula 拿着装满醋的回收塑料水瓶。

She's also carrying small white brushes, the kinds you used to scrub dirty pots and pans.

她还带着白色的小刷子，就是用来擦洗脏锅碗瓢盆的那种。

The village we're in looks like a caricature of a Mediterranean village.

我们所在的村庄看起来就像是地中海村庄的漫画。

The roads aren't paved.

道路没有铺好。

The homes are all stone.

房子都是石头的。

You can see the Mediterranean Sea and the Taygetos Mountains from anywhere.

从任何地方都可以看到地中海和泰格托斯山脉。

The graveyard is connected to the church, which is connected to the school.

墓地与教堂相连，教堂又与学校相连。

Everything is dusty.

一切都尘土飞扬。

The graves are all white.

坟墓都是白色的。

The buildings are all white.

建筑物都是白色的。

The grave digger is already at my grandmother's grave.

掘墓人已经到了我祖母的坟前。

He's wearing blue overalls and a yellow T-shirt.

他穿着蓝色工作服和黄色 T 恤。

He has on a Yankees cap.

他戴着洋基队的帽子。

His name is Arturo.

他的名字叫阿图罗。

Baseball isn't really a thing in this country.

棒球在这个国家并不是什么真正的事情。

I can't imagine where he got the hat.

我无法想象他从哪里得到这顶帽子。

My mom walks to the opposite end of the cemetery, where she sits down on a stranger's grave beneath some shade.

我妈妈走到墓地的另一端，坐在树荫下一个陌生人的坟墓上。

She doesn't want to see my grandmother's body, she says.

她说，她不想看到我祖母的尸体。

It's a small cemetery, just a few dozen graves.

这是一个很小的墓地，只有几十个坟墓。

And they're all so loved, which makes sense.

他们都如此受人喜爱，这是有道理的。

No one is buried for long here, so as long as the body's in the ground, people come to visit.

这里没有人被埋太久，所以只要尸体还埋在地下，就会有人来探望。

Each plot has photos on it, bottles of beer, and liquor, potted plants, candles, many of them lit.

每个地块上都有照片、啤酒瓶、烈酒瓶、盆栽植物、蜡烛，其中许多都点燃了。

My dad hobbles around, inspecting the other graves to see who else has died since the last time he was here.

我父亲一瘸一拐地走来走去，检查其他坟墓，看看自上次他来这里以来还有谁死了。

[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Lina Misitzis Whenever he recognizes a name, he confirms with Crisoula that yes, the person whose name is written on the gravestone is, in fact, dead.

[非英语演讲] Lina Misitzis 每当他认出一个名字时，他都会向 Crisoula 确认，是的，名字写在墓碑上的人实际上已经死了。

[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Crisoula [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]

[非英语演讲] Crisoula [非英语演讲]

One of the graves is occupied by the priest who blessed my grandmother's body just a few years ago at her funeral.

其中一个坟墓里住着一位牧师，他几年前在我祖母的葬礼上为她的遗体祝福过。

[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Dad [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]

"But I just saw him," my dad says, "at my mother's funeral.

“但我刚刚在我母亲的葬礼上看到了他，”我爸爸说。

He's dead?"

他死了？”

All week, people have been saying to us, [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH], which I understand as, "We hope she's melted." Such a strange way to say, I hope your grandmother's flesh and organs have finished decomposing.

整个星期，人们一直在对我们说，[非英语演讲]，我理解为，“我们希望她融化了。”这么奇怪的说法，我希望你祖母的肉和器官已经腐烂了。

My taxi driver who picked me up from the airport in Athens told me that at his aunt's exhumation, he'd had to wash the residual skin and blood off of her bones, which is a thought so unnerving, I don't think I fully fathomed it.

从雅典机场接我的出租车司机告诉我，在他姨妈的挖掘过程中，他必须清洗她骨头上残留的皮肤和血迹，这是一个如此令人不安的想法，我想我还没有完全理解它。

Still, I stand beside the grave digger, defiant, as though to say, even if none of you are going to look, I'm going to look.

尽管如此，我仍然站在掘墓人旁边，目中无人，仿佛在说，即使你们谁都不去看，我也要去看。

For more than an hour, there's nothing to look at.

一个多小时了，没什么可看的。

Arturo's just shoveling out rocks and dirt, placing it all in a pile at the foot of the grave.

阿图罗刚刚铲出石头和泥土，把它们堆在坟墓脚下。

And I stand there, sweating, waiting for whatever is going to happen.

我站在那里，满头大汗，等待着即将发生的一切。

My mom keeps sitting on her shady grave.

My dad keeps reading the names off of headstones, though he's running out of names he recognizes.

我爸爸一直在念墓碑上的名字，尽管他已经认不出名字了。

Growing up, this village, like the rest of Greece, was homogeneous.

在成长过程中，这个村庄和希腊其他地方一样都是同质的。

Everyone was related to everyone.

But now, there are Balkan migrants living here, retired Germans and Brits, even some expats from the US.

但现在，这里居住着巴尔干移民、退休的德国人和英国人，甚至还有一些来自美国的侨民。

In Greece, they're called [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH], strangers.

在希腊，他们被称为[非英语演讲]，陌生人。

[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Crisoula [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]

[非英语演讲] Crisoula [非英语演讲]

They're listing off all the foreigners in here.

[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Lina Misitzis Eventually he walks over to where I'm standing, I think to check in on me.

[非英语演讲] Lina Misitzis 最终他走到我站的地方，我想看看我的情况。

Do you want me to say something out loud?

No, I want you to just be normal.

How do you feel?

你感觉如何？

Kind of numb.

有点麻木。

Dad You know what I'm saying?

I'm not saying the--

我不是说——

[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Lina Misitzis [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]

[非英语演讲] Lina Misitzis [非英语演讲]

He interrupts himself to say, "Look, there's water to drink." Then he walks away to the corner of the cemetery, where Crisoula has set up a makeshift water station.

他打断自己说：“看，有水喝。”然后他走到墓地的一角，克里苏拉在那里搭建了一个临时水站。

Arturo's dug 4 or 5 feet down and switches his shovel out for what looks more like an ice pick.

阿图罗挖了四五英尺深，然后把铲子换成看起来更像冰锥的东西。

[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Lina Misitzis "We're getting close to the body now," he says.

[非英语演讲] Lina Misitzis “我们现在已经接近尸体了，”他说。

Dad walks over to stand with me.

So does Crisoula.

克里苏拉也是如此。

My mom comes over, too, which at first, I find shocking, but it's not really.

我妈妈也过来了，一开始我觉得很震惊，但事实并非如此。

She doesn't want to feel left out.

[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Lina Misitzis "Slowly," Crisoula says.

[非英语演讲] Lina Misitzis “慢慢地，” Crisoula 说。

That is the coffin.

那就是棺材。

Lina Misitzis That's the flowers that they put on the coffin, right?

Lina Misitzis 那是他们放在棺材上的花，对吗？

Yeah.

是的。

Lina Misitzis Crisoula is hovered over Arturo, holding out a giant trash bag.

莉娜·米西齐斯·克里苏拉 (Lina Misitzis Crisoula) 盘旋在阿图罗上方，手里拿着一个巨大的垃圾袋。

She's collecting any pieces of coffin that haven't disintegrated in the past few years.

她正在收集过去几年里没有分解的棺材碎片。

For a moment, everyone is silent.

[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Lina Misitzis "It's time," Arturo says.

[非英语演讲] Lina Misitzis “是时候了，”Arturo 说。

"Be very careful.

“要非常小心。

The body is ready."

身体已经准备好了。”

Arturo pulls my grandmother's head out of the ground and hands it to Crisoula.

There's still some hair on it, but no skin.

She plucks the hair off the skull, which isn't white like the fake skeletons I remember from science class.

她拔掉了头骨上的头发，它不像我记得的科学课上的假骷髅那样是白色的。

It's dark brown, closer to black.

My grandmother's eye sockets are filled with dirt.

我奶奶的眼窝里全是泥土。

Crisoula rubs her skull clean with a scrubby brush.

Crisoula 用毛刷把头骨擦干净。

She holds it up to us to look at, pointing out my grandmother's gold teeth, still intact.

她把它举给我们看，指着我祖母的金牙，仍然完好无损。

It's like she's saying, see?

就像她在说，明白吗？

It's really her.

真的是她。

Arturo keeps pulling out pieces of coffin and pieces of my grandmother.

They're not connected to anything anymore.

Most of these bones have come loose.

He pulls out some ribs, a shoulder bone, what I think is a femur, but my mom says is a clavicle.

Crisoula collects each bone one by one and lays them out in the sun.

"This was her left shoulder," she tells us.

“这是她的左肩，”她告诉我们。

"See?

“看到了吗？

You can still see the metal pin in her bone from when she got her surgery." For the next 20 or so minutes, she reconstructs as much of the body as Arturo can salvage.

It's all so bizarrely DIY.

Crisoula climbs into the grave with Arturo mid-dig to help pull out bones.

Neither of them is wearing gloves.

"In Greece," Crisoula explains to me, "we bury the dead with their heads pointing west because that's where the sun sets.

And so that's where life ends." And this process of exhuming, it's conducted from the head down.

所以这就是生命结束的地方。” And this process of exhuming, it's conducted from the head down.

The head comes out first, and Arturo works his way down the body.

The last thing that comes out are my grandmother's feet.

最后露出来的是我祖母的脚。

[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Arturo [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]

[非英语演讲] Arturo [非英语演讲]

Lina Misitzis Both of my grandmother's socks, thick wool, are intact.

Lina Misitzis 我祖母的两只厚羊毛袜子都完好无损。

This fabric doesn't disintegrate.

这种织物不会分解。

She was buried in them on purpose, so that they'd know when they'd made it to the end.

她是故意被埋在里面的，这样他们就知道什么时候能走到最后。

She's emptying the sock so all the little bones from the feet can come out.

她正在清空袜子，以便脚上的所有小骨头都可以出来。

See all the bones?

看到所有骨头了吗？

The heel of the toes, and the-- oh, my goodness.

脚趾跟部，还有——哦，天哪。

We stand there for a moment, watching Crisoula wipe down each bone.

我们在那里站了一会儿，看着克里苏拉擦拭每一根骨头。

It's jarring how practical this whole process is, how unceremonious it feels to bury your loved ones in socks so that you'll know when you've finished un-burying their remains.

令人震惊的是，这整个过程是多么实用，把你所爱的人埋在袜子里，这样你就知道什么时候完成了他们的遗体的埋葬，感觉是多么不礼貌。

I'm OK.

我可以。

Dad This is going to be with me for a while now, but.

爸爸这会伴随我一段时间，但是。

This is not scary.

这并不可怕。

Lina Misitzis "This is going to be with me for a while," my dad says, right as my mom says, "This is not scary." I feel annoyed with my mom for stepping on his answer, on what he might have said, just so she can say that she's fine, that she's not scared.

Lina Misitzis “这会伴随我一段时间，”我爸爸说，正如我妈妈所说，“这并不可怕。”我对我妈妈很生气，因为她踩在了他的答案上，踩在了他可能说的话上，这样她就可以说她很好，她并不害怕。

But then when my dad does have the space to tell me what he's feeling, he can't seem to catch his breath.

但当我父亲确实有时间告诉我他的感受时，他似乎无法喘口气。

The skull, it's-- Lina Misitzis The skull--

头骨，它是——Lina Misitzis 头骨——

--all her bones.

——她所有的骨头。

Lina Misitzis --it's all her bones.

Lina Misitzis——都是她的骨头。

When it first came out, it looked like a coconut because there was still hair on it.

刚出来的时候，它看起来像一个椰子，因为上面还有头发。

Yeah, it has hair on it.

是的，上面有头发。

Yes.

是的。

All right.

好的。

"I'm OK," he's saying.

“我很好，”他说。

Crisoula tells us that it's over.

Crisoula 告诉我们一切都结束了。

We can go.

我们可以走了。

While we're away, she'll keep scrubbing the bones, first with water, then with vinegar.

当我们不在的时候，她会继续擦洗骨头，先用水，然后用醋。

She'll place them in a small box that'll go in a shed, which holds the remains of all the other exhumed residents of this graveyard, many of them people my grandmother grew up knowing, and some [NON-ENGLISH], some foreigners.

她会把它们放在一个小盒子里，放在一个棚子里，里面装着这个墓地里所有其他被挖掘出来的居民的遗骸，其中许多人是我祖母从小就认识的人，还有一些[非英语]，一些外国人。

I asked to see the shed, which really is just a shed, like where a friend's dad might keep his lawnmower, except for this one's got stacks and stacks of small boxes in it.

我要求看一下棚子，它实际上只是一个棚子，就像朋友的爸爸可能存放割草机的地方一样，只不过这个棚子里有成堆的小盒子。

Some are labeled.

有些是有标签的。

Many aren't.

很多都不是。

It doesn't seem like anyone visits this place.

似乎没有人来这个地方。

[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Lina Misitzis Later, we'll come back to the cemetery to watch a priest, one that's alive, bless my grandmother's bones.

[非英语演讲] Lina Misitzis 稍后，我们将回到墓地，观看一位还活着的牧师为我祖母的骨头祝福。

One last goodbye.

最后一次再见。

But for now, we three-- me, my mom, and my dad-- we pile back into the rental to drive to a neighboring village where we're staying for the next few days.

但现在，我们三个人——我、妈妈和爸爸——又挤进出租屋，开车去附近的一个村庄，我们将在那里住几天。

And suddenly, my dad starts to talk about his feelings.

突然，我爸爸开始谈论他的感受。

That was what?

那是什么？

Dad That was my mom at some point.

爸爸在某个时候那是我的妈妈。

It's-- I was expecting it to be-- I don't know.

这是——我期待它——我不知道。

I feel peaceful.

我感到平静。

I was expecting it to-- I did not know what to expect.

我期待着——我不知道会发生什么。

I spent a lot of hours up at nights.

我晚上花了很多时间。

I'm just muddled, you know?

我只是一头雾水，你知道吗？

No, it's-- no, I hear what you're saying.

不，这是——不，我听到你在说什么。

I thought it was going to be upsetting, and it really wasn't for me.

我以为这会令人心烦意乱，但它真的不适合我。

And that was it.

就是这样。

It was over.

一切都结束了。

Not as traumatic as we thought it would be.

并不像我们想象的那么痛苦。

Here is a sign for it.

这是一个标志。

Lina Misitzis And here, in this car, all my family has is what we've always had.

Lina Misitzis 在这里，在这辆车里，我家人拥有的一切都是我们一直拥有的。

I start fussing over my dad's driving.

我开始为我爸爸的开车而烦恼。

Yeah.

是的。

Lina Misitzis [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]

Lina Misitzis [非英语演讲]

You'll go left.

你会向左走。

Dad We'll need to look for it.

爸爸我们需要寻找它。

And then I start feeling carsick.

然后我开始晕车。

Every bad habit I have with my parents begins to bubble up.

我和父母的每一个坏习惯都开始浮现出来。

And instead of doing the thing that I came here to do, instead of engaging with my dad, I become a kid again, complaining about an upset stomach.

我没有做我来这里要做的事情，也没有和我爸爸交往，我又变成了一个孩子，抱怨胃不舒服。

I'm going to throw up.

我要吐了。

I can't.

我不能。

And it says here, Dad.

上面写着，爸爸。

I want you to not drive if we don't know-- I'm sorry.

如果我们不知道的话，我希望你不要开车——对不起。

My stomach feels like [BLEEP].

我的胃感觉像[哔]。

What is this?

这是什么？

Somebody's seat belt is not on, or something?

有人没系安全带，还是怎么的？

Is the door open?

门开着吗？

Daddy, can we make a decision about what we're doing?

爸爸，我们可以决定我们正在做什么吗？

Listening back to this car ride, what sticks out to me most is the moment my dad tries doing the exact thing I came to Greece hoping for.

回想起这次开车的经历，最让我印象深刻的是我父亲尝试做我来希腊所希望的事情的那一刻。

He tries talking about his feelings.

他尝试谈论他的感受。

And he probably would have if I hadn't so quickly stopped listening.

如果我没有这么快就不再听的话，他可能会这么做。

But you have the phone, and you can talk to her and she can say.

但你有电话，你可以和她说话，她也可以说。

A couple days later, my last night in Greece with my parents, we decide to go out for dinner.

几天后，我和父母在希腊的最后一晚，我们决定出去吃晚饭。

And when we get to the restaurant, my mom pulls me aside to ask if I'm going to be good tonight, if I'm going to be present.

当我们到达餐厅时，我妈妈把我拉到一边，问我今晚是否表现出色，是否会出席。

"I'm always present," I lie.

“我总是在场，”我撒谎道。

She says no. The only time I was present on this trip was at the cemetery.

她说不。这次旅行我唯一一次在场的是墓地。

Otherwise, I'm the same as ever.

不然我就和以前一样了。

We're all the same as ever.

我们都和以前一样。

The only thing that's different, really, is we have one less day.

事实上，唯一不同的是我们少了一天。

Lina Misitzis is a producer on our show.

Lina Misitzis 是我们节目的制片人。

Act Two, Next of Kindle.

第二幕，Kindle 的下一个。

So our show today is about people unburying the past.

所以我们今天的节目是关于人们揭开过去的。

And when people leave us, they don't just leave behind physical objects.

当人们离开我们时，他们留下的不仅仅是实物。

Bim Adewunmi talked to a man about a digital excavation.

Bim Adewunmi 与一名男子谈论了一次数字挖掘。

Gloria Wayne was a voracious reader.

格洛丽亚·韦恩是一位如饥似渴的读者。

Her son, Dave, has vivid memories of when he was six or seven, going with her to the library in the whirl, in Northwest England.

她的儿子戴夫对六七岁时与她一起去英格兰西北部图书馆的情景记忆犹新。

They made a trip to Haswell Library every couple of weeks, returning and replenishing her stack of borrowed Mills and Boon novels.

他们每隔几周就去哈斯韦尔图书馆一次，归还并补充她借来的米尔斯和布恩小说。

It was a habit Gloria maintained all through her long life.

这是格洛丽亚一生都保持的习惯。

And so for Christmas, back in 2011, her sons got her a gift to aid in that habit-- a Kindle.

因此，早在 2011 年的圣诞节，她的儿子们就送了她一份礼物来帮助她养成这个习惯——一台 Kindle。

Gloria was suspicious of online security in general, so they paid her Kindle with Dave's existing account and added an unlimited subscription so she could read whatever she wanted whenever she wanted to read it.

格洛丽亚总体上对网络安全持怀疑态度，因此他们用戴夫现有的帐户向她支付了 Kindle 费用，并添加了无限订阅，这样她就可以随时阅读她想阅读的任何内容。

Earlier this year, Gloria died.

今年早些时候，格洛丽亚去世了。

She was 83 years old.

她已经83岁了。

I spoke to Dave on the phone about his mom, and we talked about the weird life admin that suddenly becomes super important after such a loss.

我在电话中与戴夫谈论了他的妈妈，我们谈到了奇怪的生活管理，在经历了这样的损失之后，它突然变得非常重要。

One of the first things that occurred to me, even though it may be the most insignificant, was that my mum hated wasting money.

我首先想到的一件事，尽管可能是最微不足道的，就是我妈妈讨厌浪费钱。

She would absolutely go mad if she thought that the next month's subscription was to come out, and she wasn't around to use it.

如果她想到下个月的订阅即将发布，而她却没有时间使用它，她绝对会发疯。

So only hours after she'd gone and still in a daze, Dave went to do the responsible thing, the thing he knew his mom would approve of-- cancel the Kindle subscription.

因此，就在她离开几个小时后，戴夫仍然在发呆，他去做了负责任的事情，他知道他妈妈会批准的事情——取消 Kindle 订阅。

And then I thought, well, just for old time's sake, let's have a look at what was there.

然后我想，好吧，看在旧事重提的份上，让我们看看那里有什么。

So I clicked on to Library, and there before me I found 3,046 books.

于是我点击了“图书馆”，在我面前找到了 3,046 本书。

In the time period between Christmas 2011 when we bought the Kindle to her said passing on April 16th, she had purchased over 3,000 books, which was quite remarkable, really.

2011年圣诞节，我们给她买了Kindle，也就是4月16日过去的这段时间里，她已经购买了3000多本书，这确实是相当了不起的。

Dave had had an idea of his mom's literary interests.

戴夫了解他妈妈的文学兴趣。

Her bookshelves contained a good amount of romance novels of the sort he remembered from childhood.

她的书架上有很多他从小就记得的言情小说。

He also used to get email notifications every so often.

他还经常收到电子邮件通知。

Remember, his account was linked to her Kindle all these years, but he didn't really pay attention to what his mother was buying.

请记住，这些年来他的帐户一直与她的 Kindle 相关联，但他并没有真正关注他母亲买了什么。

Romance novels, he'd kind of expected.

言情小说，他有点期待。

But--

但是——

But what there was, was a number of-- I'm trying to put diplomatically really-- should we say, erotica.

但其中有一些——我真的想用外交的方式表达——我们应该说，色情作品。

It was just erotica.

这只是色情作品。

And it wasn't just the vanilla stuff.

这不仅仅是香草的东西。

It was a real pick and mix of sexual expression.

这是性表达的真正选择和混合。

If you're listening with kids right now, don't worry.

如果您现在正在和孩子们一起听，请不要担心。

This is not in any way X rated.

这无论如何都不是 X 级的。

I mean, not wanting to throw a whole cornucopia of acronyms at you, but there were MFM, MFF, FFM, triple MF, all kinds of different combinations of relationships and sexual encounters, which was quite staggering, to be honest.

我的意思是，我不想向你扔一大堆缩略词，但有 MFM、MFF、FFM、三重 MF，各种不同的关系和性接触组合，说实话，这相当令人震惊。

You know, there was no one aspect.

你知道，没有任何一方面。

There was no one peccadillo that she got drawn to.

她没有被任何一个过失所吸引。

It was a whole variety.

这是一个完整的品种。

Dave tweeted about both his mother's passing and his inadvertent inheritance of a library of what he described tongue in cheek as magnificently epic sleaze.

戴夫在推特上谈到了他母亲的去世，以及他无意中继承了一座图书馆，他半开玩笑地称这些图书馆是史诗般的肮脏之物。

He concluded it with a tribute of sorts.

他以某种致敬的方式结束了演讲。

"Mother," he wrote, "I raise a glass."

“妈妈，”他写道，“我举起一杯酒。”

Discovering the library made Dave curious.

发现图书馆让戴夫感到好奇。

He and his mother shared similar tastes in music and film.

他和他的母亲在音乐和电影方面有着相似的品味。

Maybe there would be unlikely common ground here, too.

也许这里也不太可能有共同点。

He decided to make a project of his discovery.

他决定根据他的发现开展一个项目。

He would delve into his mother's virtual stack of saucy literature-- his words-- and maybe find one more thing they had in common.

他会深入研究他母亲虚拟的一堆俏皮文学作品——他的话——也许会发现他们的另一个共同点。

It wasn't especially taxing.

这并不是特别费力。

You know, it was only a fairly short kind of thing.

你知道，这只是一个相当短的事情。

It was a 90-minute endeavor.

这是一次 90 分钟的努力。

So for 100 days on the run, I read a book each day.

所以在逃亡的100天里，我每天都读一本书。

Do you have a favorite title?

你有最喜欢的标题吗？

Was there any title that stuck out to you as just either abominably bad or actually fantastically good?

有没有哪个游戏让你觉得要么非常糟糕，要么实际上非常好？

Probably a bit of both, to be honest.

老实说，可能两者都有。

And that's, without doubt, Spanked by the Italian Mob.

毫无疑问，那是被意大利暴民打屁股的。

Because it does what it says on the page.

因为它按照页面上的说明执行操作。

It is literally about a girl who wants to be spanked by the Italian mob.

这实际上是关于一个女孩想要被意大利暴徒打屁股的故事。

And that's the beginning, middle, and the end.

这就是开始、中间和结束。

I mean, the whole series, to be honest, of Spanked by books.

我的意思是，老实说，整个系列都是被书打屁股的。

There's about six or seven--

大概有六七个人——

Wow.

哇。

Dave --with this poor girl being spanked by a variety of men.

戴夫——这个可怜的女孩被各种各样的男人打屁股。

I checked out the series, by the way.

顺便说一句，我查了一下这个系列。

It's by Alexis Starr.

这是亚历克西斯·斯塔尔的作品。

The actual title Dave is thinking about is Spanked by the Irish Mob.

戴夫正在考虑的实际标题是《被爱尔兰黑帮打屁股》。

Each book features a heroine looking for a spanking and getting it from the Yakuza, a Navy SEAL, an unaffiliated mob boss, and others.

每本书都有一位女主人公寻求打屁股，并从黑帮、海豹突击队、独立的黑帮老大等人那里得到打屁股。

As Dave read more books, he found himself enjoying some of them enough that he started to have a few favorites.

随着戴夫读的书越来越多，他发现自己非常喜欢其中的一些书，以至于开始有一些最喜欢的书。

Opposing Briefs was an MM romance that was quite fascinating.

对立的内裤是一段相当迷人的MM浪漫史。

That's great.

那太棒了。

Dave I quite liked the playful nature of the title.

戴夫，我非常喜欢这个标题的俏皮性质。

That was written by Ian Finn.

这是伊恩·芬恩写的。

I did like that a great deal.

我确实非常喜欢这样。

And a one called-- one written by Anyah Omah, called Sexsomnia, Sleepless in Manhattan.

还有一本由 Anyah Omah 写的，名叫《Sexsomnia》，《曼哈顿不眠之夜》。

And that was very good indeed as well, which was a lighter tone and slightly less of an explicit nature to it.

这确实也很好，语气比较轻松，而且不太明确。

Now that the 100 book challenge is over, Dave has kept his mom's subscription going, and he's still reading her books.

现在 100 本书的挑战已经结束，戴夫继续了他妈妈的订阅，并且他仍在阅读她的书。

They're a reminder that his mom was more than just his mom.

它们提醒着他的妈妈不仅仅是他的妈妈。

She was a real whole person with her own quiet obsessions.

她是一个真正完整的人，有自己安静的痴迷。

In reading these books, do you feel is it helping?

读完这些书，你觉得有帮助吗？

Is it, in any way, a balm for you?

无论如何，它对你来说是一种安慰吗？

Yeah, because it keeps her spirit present.

是的，因为这让她的精神保持存在。

You find yourself almost having a conversation, why do you read them?

你发现自己快要开始对话了，为什么还要读它们呢？

You read a particularly horrific and explicit line.

你读到了一段特别可怕和露骨的台词。

You think, good grief, mother, what were you doing?

你想，天哪，妈妈，你在做什么？

So yeah, it does tend to extend that relationship.

所以是的，它确实倾向于扩展这种关系。

And while we can never reverse what happened, it does keep her memory more vivid.

虽然我们永远无法扭转所发生的事情，但这确实让她的记忆更加清晰。

According to Dave, his mom was a homebody.

据戴夫说，他的妈妈是个宅男。

And in her eighth decade, after a lifetime of working hard, Gloria liked to stay home, watch a bit of Murder She Wrote, and enjoy her smutty novels.

在她八十几岁的时候，在辛苦工作了一辈子之后，格洛丽亚喜欢呆在家里，看一点《她写的谋杀案》，享受她的色情小说。

Finding her library is a confirmation that his mom always did whatever the hell she wanted.

找到她的图书馆证实了他妈妈总是为所欲为。

And more than anything else, it just makes him admire her more.

最重要的是，这让他更加钦佩她。

Bim Adewunmi is one of the producers of our show.

Bim Adewunmi 是我们节目的制作人之一。

Coming up, the hip bone's connected to the-- it actually is not connected to anything in this case-- like, nothing at all.

接下来，髋骨连接到——在这种情况下它实际上没有连接到任何东西——就像什么都没有。

That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.

芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。

It's This American Life.

这就是美国生活。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Today's show, Digging Up the Bones-- stories of people unearthing things from the past, trying to make sense of them.

今天的节目《挖掘骨头》讲述了人们挖掘过去的事物并试图理解它们的故事。

We've arrived at Act Three of our show.

我们已经到了节目的第三幕了。

Act Three, The Case of the Curious Bone.

第三幕，好奇骨案。

David Kestenbaum has this story about a man obsessed with a single bone, a bone that is inexplicably large, really just too big to make any sense out of at all.

大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆（David Kestenbaum）有一个故事，讲述的是一个男人痴迷于一根骨头，一根莫名其妙的大骨头，真的太大了，根本没有任何意义。

It was a fragment of a bone, so old it had turned to stone.

那是一块骨头碎片，年代久远，已经变成了石头。

The man trying to puzzle it out was a naturalist and professor in England named Robert Plot.

试图解开这个谜题的人是英国一位博物学家兼教授罗伯特·普洛特。

He writes about it in this beautiful meticulous book, The Natural History of Oxfordshire, published in 1677.

他在 1677 年出版的这本精美细致的书《牛津郡自然史》中对此进行了描述。

"The curious bone," he writes, "was," quote, "dug out of a quarry in the parish of Cornwall and given to me by the ingenious Sir Thomas Pennyston." He writes that it seemed to be some part of a thigh bone, except way too big.

“这块奇怪的骨头，”他写道，“是从康沃尔教区的一个采石场挖出来的，是聪明的托马斯·彭尼斯顿爵士送给我的。”他写道，这似乎是大腿骨的某个部分，只是太大了。

It measured 2 feet and weighed almost 20 pounds.

它长 2 英尺，重约 20 磅。

This is the 1600s, and no one in the world had a good explanation for a bone that big.

现在是 1600 年代，世界上没有人对这么大的骨头有一个很好的解释。

Plot writes for almost nine pages in his book about the strange bone, and he is methodical in trying to reason out what the heck it is.

普洛特在他的书中用了近九页的篇幅描述了这块奇怪的骨头，他有条不紊地试图推理出这到底是什么。

First, he considers the possibility that maybe it's not a bone at all, but just some natural rock formation.

首先，他考虑了一种可能性：也许它根本不是骨头，而只是一些天然的岩层。

Which is admirable.

这是令人钦佩的。

It's so easy to jump to conclusions.

我们很容易得出结论。

But the more he studies it, it really does seem to be part of a colossal bone.

但他研究得越多，它似乎确实是一块巨大骨头的一部分。

He writes that it has the capita femoris inferiora and, quote, "the seat of the strong ligament that rises out of the thigh and gives safe passage to the vessels descending into the leg." And then inside the bone, there is what looks like marrow.

他写道，它有股骨头下位肌，并且引用“从大腿上升起的坚固韧带的位置，为下降到腿部的血管提供安全通道”。然后骨头里面有看起来像骨髓的东西。

He can see the marrow preserved inside.

他可以看到里面保存的骨髓。

But what in the world was it from?

但它到底是从哪里来的呢？

Quote, "It will be hard to find an animal proportional to it," he writes.

引用，“很难找到与之相称的动物，”他写道。

He runs through the possibilities, eliminating them one by one.

他把所有的可能性都一一排除。

Horse, oxen, too small.

马，牛，太小了。

He considers something other people have suggested, that maybe the bone is from an elephant, perhaps brought over during the Roman invasions, back around 50 AD.

他考虑了其他人的建议，即这块骨头可能来自一头大象，可能是在公元 50 年左右的罗马入侵期间带来的。

He spends two pages on this possibility, but it seems unlikely to him.

他用了两页纸来讨论这种可能性，但对他来说这似乎不太可能。

He's clearly read through lots of historical accounts.

他显然读过很多历史记载。

Quote, "Suetonius in his life, where he is very particular concerning this expedition into Britain, mentions no such matter.

引用：“苏托尼乌斯在他的一生中，特别关注这次对不列颠的远征，却没有提到这样的事情。

There was one elephant, 'tis true," he writes, "sent as a present to King Henry the Third from the King of France in the year 1255, and perhaps two or three other elephants brought to England for show since then.

确实有一头大象，”他写道，“1255 年，法国国王作为礼物送给了亨利三世国王，从那时起，也许还有两三头大象被带到英国进行展示。

But," quote, "whether it be likely any of these should be buried at Cornwall, let the reader judge.

但是，”引用说，“这些是否有可能被埋在康沃尔郡，让读者来判断。

Also, if the bone is from an elephant," he writes, "where are the tusks?"

另外，如果骨头来自大象，”他写道，“象牙在哪里？”

Finally, as he's writing it, he explains that an actual live elephant comes to town, which he examines and decides, no. Elephant thigh bone-- completely different shape.

最后，当他写这篇文章时，他解释说，一头真正的活大象来到了镇上，他检查并决定，没有。大象大腿骨——完全不同的形状。

Definitely not elephant.

绝对不是大象。

And here, you can feel him starting to piece things together.

在这里，你可以感觉到他开始把事情拼凑起来。

He's on the edge of seeing this thing.

他即将看到这件事。

He mentions other large bones.

他提到了其他大骨头。

After the great fire in London in 1666, under the wreckage of St. Mary Will Church, quote, "there was found a thigh bone, now to be seen at the King's Head Tavern in Greenwich in Kent, much bigger and longer than ours."

1666 年伦敦大火之后，在圣玛丽威尔教堂的废墟下，“发现了一块大腿骨，现在可以在肯特郡格林威治的国王头酒馆看到，它比我们的更大、更长。”

And also, people had been finding unusually large teeth.

而且，人们还发现了异常大的牙齿。

In fact, people had been finding unusually large bones for centuries.

事实上，几个世纪以来人们一直在发现异常大的骨头。

There's one account by a Chinese scholar from the 300s BC, but none had a satisfying explanation.

公元前300年代的一位中国学者曾有过这样的记载，但没有一个给出令人满意的解释。

It is remarkable reading Robert Plot's book to think how close he was to such a stunning fact about life on this planet.

读罗伯特·普洛特的书，想想他是如此接近这个星球上生命的惊人事实，真是太了不起了。

But you can know a lot and still not see.

但你可能知道很多，但仍然看不到。

Sometimes you don't even know what you can't see.

有时你甚至不知道你看不到的东西。

You just can't imagine the possibility of it, even when you were holding the thing in your hand.

即使你手里拿着这个东西，你也无法想象它的可能性。

By the end of the section of the book, Plot has reasoned out the one remaining possibility, the only thing that makes any sense to him.

在这本书的这一部分的结尾，普洛特推理出了剩下的一种可能性，这是他唯一有意义的事情。

The bones, they must have come from giants-- people just a little bigger.

这些骨头，一定是来自巨人——只是体型大一点的人。

Which, I have to say, is way more sensible than the truth.

我不得不说，这比事实更明智。

David Kestenbaum is the executive editor of our program.

大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆 (David Kestenbaum) 是我们节目的执行编辑。

Robert Plot died in 1696.

罗伯特·普洛特于 1696 年去世。

People didn't figure out the whole dinosaur thing for another 100 years.

又过了一百年，人们才弄清楚恐龙的全部真相。

The bone Plot puzzled over was lost a long time ago, but from the drawings, scientists think that it was a Megalosaurus that lived in Cornwall some 170 million years before him, and yes, a thigh bone.

令人困惑的骨头图早已丢失，但从图纸来看，科学家认为这是一只生活在康沃尔郡的斑龙，距他早约 1.7 亿年，是的，是一块大腿骨。

Act Four, Revision Quest.

第四幕，修订任务。

So we end our show today with somebody who dug up bones from her past, and then, years later, went back to the same site to dig them up again.

因此，我们今天的节目结束时，有人从她的过去挖出了骨头，然后，几年后，又回到同一个地点再次挖掘它们。

Susan Burton explains.

苏珊·伯顿解释道。

Jill's husband died a few years ago.

吉尔的丈夫几年前去世了。

They met in 1970 when Jill was 16 and he was 47.

他们于 1970 年相识，当时吉尔 16 岁，他 47 岁。

And in spite of the age difference, they were passionate about each other from the start.

尽管年龄不同，他们从一开始就对彼此充满热情。

It was a happy marriage.

这是一段幸福的婚姻。

That's one way to tell the story.

这是讲述故事的一种方式。

Here's another.

这是另一个。

Jill's husband died a few years ago.

吉尔的丈夫几年前去世了。

They met in 1970 when Jill was 16 and he was 47.

他们于 1970 年相识，当时吉尔 16 岁，他 47 岁。

She was a student, and one evening after class, he kissed her.

她是一名学生，一天晚上下课后，他吻了她。

They started sleeping together.

他们开始睡在一起。

You might call him a predator or say he abused his power, but everything turned out OK.

你可能会称他为掠夺者，或者说他滥用权力，但结果一切都很好。

It was a happy marriage.

这是一段幸福的婚姻。

Jill's a writer.

吉尔是一名作家。

Her full name is Jill Ciment.

她的全名是吉尔·西门特。

And years ago, when she was in her 40s, she published a memoir that told the story the first way.

多年前，当她 40 多岁的时候，她出版了一本回忆录，以第一种方式讲述了这个故事。

Now she's writing that story again and considering it from the second angle.

现在她正在重新写那个故事，并从第二个角度考虑它。

Not to correct the record-- she's trying to understand why she wrote her story the way she did.

不是为了纠正记录——她试图理解为什么她会这样写故事。

The first memoir is called Half a Life.

第一本回忆录叫做《半生》。

The one she's writing now is called The Other Half.

她现在写的那本书叫《另一半》。

When I wrote Half a Life originally, I wrote this thing from the depths of my heart.

我当初写《半生》的时候，是从内心深处写出这个东西的。

I was supposedly telling the truth, which I really deeply believed I was.

我应该说的是实话，我真的深信自己是实话。

But with the beginning of the Me Too movement, it was a kind of catalyst that made me think, what if I told my story again from this vantage point, from the vantage point of me being 66 and the vantage point of the world having completely changed.

但随着Me Too运动的开始，它成为一种催化剂，让我思考，如果我从这个角度，从我66岁的角度，从世界已经完全改变的角度，再次讲述我的故事，会怎样。

Jill knew exactly where she wanted to start-- by writing down the story of their first kiss.

吉尔清楚地知道她想从哪里开始——写下他们初吻的故事。

What she wrote about it when she was in her 40s is not how she remembers it today.

她40多岁时所写的内容与她今天的记忆不同。

Here's what she remembers today.

这是她今天记得的事情。

The night of that kiss, Jill and Arnold, her teacher, were in an art studio.

那个吻的那天晚上，吉尔和她的老师阿诺德在艺术工作室里。

It was an evening class.

那是一堂晚自习。

Most of the other students were retirees.

大多数其他学生都是退休人员。

The class had ended, and Jill was alone with Arnold.

课程结束了，吉尔独自和阿诺德在一起。

And for the past six months, he'd been doing things like saying, I wish you were older, and not making sexual advances, but certainly making me aware he was attracted to me.

在过去的六个月里，他一直在做一些事情，比如说，我希望你年纪大一些，并且没有做出性行为，但肯定让我意识到他被我吸引了。

And I was completely attracted to him, and all I did was fantasize about him.

而我完全被他吸引了，我所做的一切就是对他的幻想。

And so we went into his studio.

于是我们就走进了他的工作室。

Supposedly, he was going to give me the names of people-- I was about to drop out of high school and move to New York to be an artist.

据说，他会给我一些人的名字——我即将从高中退学，搬到纽约成为一名艺术家。

And he was going to give me the names of other artists who would become maybe mentors or hire me as an assistant.

他会给我其他艺术家的名字，他们可能会成为导师或雇用我作为助理。

And as we got into the room, I remember he took my wrist and pulled me towards him, and we kissed.

当我们进入房间时，我记得他握住我的手腕，将我拉向他，我们接吻了。

And I look back, and I realized I hadn't written it that way, OK?

当我回头看时，我意识到我没有那样写，好吗？

I had written it as if I had been the sexual aggressor.

我写这篇文章的时候就好像我是性侵犯者一样。

Could you go ahead and read how you described the scene in Half a Life?

你能继续读一下你是如何描述《半条命》中的场景的吗？

Absolutely.

绝对地。

"On the last night of art class, I dawdled in the hall until the other students were finished.

“艺术课的最后一晚，我在大厅里磨磨蹭蹭，直到其他学生都上完课。

As soon as they were gone, I slipped back into the classroom and shut the door behind me.

他们一走，我就溜回教室，关上门。

Arnold was leaning against a window frame, arms folded, eyes shut, yawning.

阿诺德靠在窗框上，双臂交叉，闭着眼睛，打着哈欠。

This time I approached him without a hint of coyness, without the spark of a blush.

这次我走近他，没有一丝羞涩，没有一丝脸红。

I unbuttoned the top three buttons of my peasant blouse, crossed the ink splattered floor, and kissed him."

我解开农民衬衫最上面的三颗扣子，穿过溅满墨水的地板，吻了他。”

I don't know.

我不知道。

I think I viewed myself as-- and I always have.

我想我认为自己是——而且我一直都是这样。

I viewed myself as someone who was always in charge.

我认为自己是一个永远负责的人。

I never felt powerless.

我从未感到无能为力。

And so maybe a way of illustrating that was to make me the sexual aggressor, at least as far as the kiss went.

因此，也许可以用一种方式来说明这一点，那就是让我成为性侵犯者，至少就吻而言。

But I don't honestly know.

但老实说我不知道。

I mean, that's why I'm writing this whole book, to try to figure out why it seemed the truth then.

我的意思是，这就是我写整本书的原因，试图弄清楚为什么这在当时看起来是事实。

I would never have done it purposely, OK?

我绝不会故意这么做的，好吗？

It did seem the truth when I wrote it in 1996.

当我 1996 年写下这句话时，这似乎确实是事实。

Why it seemed the truth there is what interests me.

为什么这看起来是事实，这正是我感兴趣的地方。

One reason it seemed like the truth was that later, when Jill and Arnold slept together for the first time, she was the one who seduced him.

这看起来像是事实的一个原因是，后来，当吉尔和阿诺德第一次睡在一起时，她就是引诱他的人。

She's certain of that.

她对此很确定。

They both were.

他们都是。

But that first kiss--

但那个初吻——

When I look back on it, he did instigate this.

现在回想起来，这确实是他怂恿的。

And I don't know if I would have had the nerve at 16 and then later 17 to have acted upon all the things that I acted upon without him being the initial instigator.

我不知道如果不是他是最初的煽动者，我是否有勇气在 16 岁以及后来的 17 岁时按照我所做的所有事情采取行动。

In making yourself the instigator, were you protecting him?

你让自己成为煽动者，是在保护他吗？

I don't think so.

我不这么认为。

I think that I was trying to tell the truth of my own desire.

我想我是在试图说出我自己的愿望的真相。

I saw him.

我看到他了。

I wanted him.

我想要他。

And I went after him.

我就去追他。

And I don't think I knew how to reconcile that with the idea that he kissed me first.

我想我不知道如何将这一点与他先吻我的想法相协调。

In her 40s, Jill wanted to write a love story about love across a great age span-- this kind of story.

40多岁的吉尔想写一个跨越很大年龄跨度的爱情故事——这样的故事。

It's almost always told from a man's point of view.

它几乎总是从一个男人的角度来讲述。

Jill wanted to write it from the perspective of the young woman and also not make her the victim.

吉尔想从年轻女子的角度来写，也不想让她成为受害者。

And even though Jill still emphatically does not see herself as a victim, some of the choices she made in writing her first memoir seem startling to her now, like her account of a letter Arnold sent her after they slept together.

尽管吉尔仍然坚决不认为自己是受害者，但她在写第一本回忆录时所做的一些选择现在对她来说似乎令人震惊，比如她对阿诺德在他们睡在一起后给她写的一封信的描述。

"Dear Jill, are you ever coming back to class?" When she didn't respond, he called her.

“亲爱的吉尔，你还会回来上课吗？”见她没有反应，他就给她打了电话。

In the first memoir, Jill plays the anecdote for laughs.

在第一本回忆录中，吉尔讲述了这个轶事以供大家发笑。

The first time it's treated like, of course it's funny.

第一次被这样对待，当然很有趣。

What 47-year-old man is going to write a little girl at her house when her mother can open the mail?

当一个小女孩的妈妈可以打开邮件时，哪个 47 岁的男人会给她家写信呢？

But when I rewrote it this time, what I saw was I saw a 47-year-old man having made love to a 17-year-old girl, after which he doesn't hear from her for a month.

但当我这次重写的时候，我看到的是一个47岁的男人和一个17岁的女孩做爱，之后一个月没有她的消息。

He writes a letter to her house, soliciting her again in this sort of fake love letter.

他给她家写了一封信，再次用这种假情书向她求爱。

And when he doesn't hear back from that little girl again, he calls her.

当他再也没有收到那个小女孩的回复时，他给她打电话。

Now, in today's world, we would see that as a predator going after an underage girl.

现在，在当今世界，我们会将其视为掠夺者追捕未成年女孩。

And when I think about that, I'm totally shocked.

当我想到这一点时，我感到非常震惊。

I'm shocked that I didn't see that the first time.

我很惊讶我第一次没有看到这一点。

But the end of a story really, really makes you change the beginning.

但故事的结局真的真的会让你改变开头。

And so I think that that's part of it.

所以我认为这就是其中的一部分。

I think that part of the reason that I wrote it this way is because I was having a wonderful marriage.

我认为我这样写的部分原因是因为我有一段美好的婚姻。

And part of the reason I wrote it this way was because in 1970, when all this stuff was happening, it wasn't as appalling for an older man to do this.

Back in 1970, nobody ever said to Jill that they saw anything appalling in Arnold's behavior, at least not directly.

早在 1970 年，就没有人对吉尔说过，他们在阿诺德的行为中看到了任何令人震惊的地方，至少没有直接看到。

Here's the thing.

事情是这样的。

I mean, I remember going to a party one time when we were first going out, where the hostess served everyone a martini and me a glass of milk.

我的意思是，我记得有一次我们第一次出去的时候去参加一个聚会，女主人给每个人一杯马提尼，给我一杯牛奶。

So I'm sure people noticed, OK?

所以我确信人们注意到了，好吗？

When Jill looked back at the first book, she was struck by the part she left out-- parts of scenes, the messier, more revealing parts, but other omissions, too, ones that are more profound, like about her father, who was the exact same age as Arnold.

Most of the first book is actually about Jill's father.

第一本书的大部分内容实际上是关于吉尔的父亲的。

She only meets Arnold about 2/3 of the way through.

她只在故事进行到 2/3 时才遇到阿诺德。

By that point, her father had moved out.

那时，她的父亲已经搬走了。

She rarely saw him.

她很少见到他。

He was troubled, and explosive, and incapable of emotional connection, essentially absent from her life.

他心烦意乱，脾气暴躁，无法与她建立情感联系，基本上从她的生活中消失了。

I found her writing about him wrenching, but weirdly incomplete.

我发现她写的关于他的文章令人痛苦，但奇怪的是不完整。

It was just so clear that your art teacher was a substitute for your father in so many ways.

很明显，你的美术老师在很多方面都是你父亲的替代品。

And you don't write explicitly about this in Half a Life.

你在《半生》中并没有明确地写到这一点。

And I wonder if you could talk about why.

我想知道你能否谈谈原因。

I can't believe I didn't do it.

我不敢相信我没有这么做。

I mean, I'm doing it now in this version.

我的意思是，我现在正在这个版本中这样做。

At 45, it seemed obvious.

45 岁时，这似乎是显而易见的。

And the obvious in those days, I believed, made things less literary.

我相信，那些日子里显而易见的事情让事情变得不那么文学化了。

God knows why, OK?

天知道为什么，好吗？

But that's what I believed.

但这就是我所相信的。

And I just don't think it's true anymore.

我只是认为这不再是真的了。

And I think the idea that a fatherless girl goes out and finds then a father and then uses that man to heal themself of having never been loved by an older man, I mean maybe I didn't know how to handle it at that age.

Maybe it was impossible to do while both my father and my husband were alive.

当我的父亲和我的丈夫还活着的时候，这也许是不可能的。

What has reexamining your story like this done to your picture of your husband, or your memories of him, or your perception of your marriage?

像这样重新审视你的故事对你对你丈夫的照片、你对他的记忆、或者你对婚姻的看法有何影响？

Well, I mean, it changes the picture because I can't now look at him without realizing the lines that he crossed.

嗯，我的意思是，这改变了局面，因为我现在不能看着他而不意识到他越过了界限。

And at the same time, I'm really glad that we crossed those lines.

与此同时，我真的很高兴我们跨越了这些界限。

I really question a lot of these inferences that it is always wrong.

我真的质疑很多这样的推论，它们总是错误的。

It wasn't wrong for me.

这对我来说并没有错。

And it will never change my feelings about it being an amazing marriage.

这永远不会改变我对这是一段美妙婚姻的感觉。

What things do you say in the new book that might have been hard for him to read?

你在新书中说了哪些对他来说可能难以阅读的内容？

Oh my god, the whole thing.

天哪，整个事情。

I mean, I would never have written this book if he was alive.

我的意思是，如果他还活着，我永远不会写这本书。

I mean, it would be so hurtful.

我的意思是，这会很伤人。

Like in Half a Life, he seems like he has always been a successful older man.

就像在《半生》中一样，他看起来一直是一个成功的老人。

And to describe him as somebody who had a midlife crisis and was struggling to find himself again, I think would have been really painful for him to read.

Arnold was a painter.

阿诺德是一位画家。

He was struggling as an artist when Jill met him.

当吉尔遇见他时，他正在为一名艺术家而奋斗。

But he flourished in the years that followed.

但他在接下来的几年里蓬勃发展。

It's interesting to hear you say that the thing Arnold would be hurt by is the depiction of him as a struggling middle-aged man, and not the questions about his role as possible predator or aggressor.

I don't think he was-- I mean, I don't think he ever thought of me-- but maybe he did.

我不认为他——我的意思是，我不认为他曾经想过我——但也许他想过。

Who knows, OK?

谁知道，好吗？

I think that he never thought of me as someone who wasn't as strong as him.

我想他从来没有认为我是一个不如他坚强的人。

And so I think he would be-- I think he'd be shocked and surprised by these nuances in which I'm looking back at our relationship.

所以我认为他会对我回顾我们关系时的这些细微差别感到震惊和惊讶。

The questions Jill's asking about what she included and what she left out, about what she realizes now that she didn't back then, those questions interest me because they're questions I'm asking myself right now, too.

I'm almost exactly the same age as Jill was when she wrote Half a Life, and I have a memoir coming out in a few months.

我和吉尔写《半生》时的年龄几乎一模一样，几个月后我就会出版一本回忆录。

The book tells the story of my adolescence, but I assume it reveals just as much, if not more, about who I am now at 46 than who I was at 16.

这本书讲述了我青春期的故事，但我认为它所揭示的 46 岁的我与 16 岁时的我一样多，甚至更多。

It's about the eating disorders that defined my teenage years, and if I'm being honest, my adulthood, too.

这是关于定义我青少年时期的饮食失调，如果我说实话，也定义了我的成年期。

Until recently, I'd never talked about this stuff with anyone.

直到最近，我还从未与任何人谈论过这些事情。

So in that way, the book is very exposing.

所以从这个角度来看，这本书非常具有启发性。

But maybe what's not there is just as revealing.

但也许不存在的东西也同样具有启发性。

I know there's a lot I can't yet see, and I wanted to talk to Jill about that.

我知道还有很多东西我还看不到，我想和吉尔谈谈。

I know that if I'd waited another five years, I would've understood more.

我知道如果我再等五年，我就会明白更多。

And sometimes I wonder, should I have waited to tell my story until I understood it better?

有时我想知道，我是否应该等到我更好地理解它之后才讲述我的故事？

But I don't think I understand my story any better than I did at 45, OK?

但我认为我对自己的故事的理解并不比 45 岁时更好，好吗？

Yeah.

是的。

Jill Ciment I look back at my 45-year-old self, and I think, oh my god, she didn't have this information.

Jill Ciment 当我回顾 45 岁的自己时，我想，天哪，她没有这些信息。

I see how young I was at 45.

看看45岁的我是多么年轻。

I look at my 45-year-old self in much the same way that my 45-year-old self looked at my 16-year-old self.

我看待 45 岁的自己就像 45 岁的自己看待 16 岁的自己一样。

And it's a kind of compassionate view of who you were before you had all the information.

这是一种富有同情心的视角，了解在你掌握所有信息之前你是谁。

Yeah.

是的。

When you think about yourself at 45, how do you see your 45-year-old self now differently than she saw herself?

当你想到 45 岁时的自己时，你对现在 45 岁的自己的看法与她对自己的看法有何不同？

At that point, I was still thinking about the ascent of life.

那时我还在思考人生的提升。

I was still moving in this forward motion.

我仍然在向前迈进。

I was maybe at the height of my powers.

我也许正处于权力的顶峰。

And when I look back at that, I realized how delusional that is.

当我回想起来时，我意识到这是多么的妄想。

What happens is you're writing at 45 from all the information experience that you've had.

发生的情况是，你在 45 岁时根据你所拥有的所有信息经验进行写作。

What I didn't have was the experience of taking my husband all the way to death.

我没有的是带着我的丈夫一路走向死亡的经历。

In her new book, Jill's not just exploring the beginning of her relationship.

在她的新书中，吉尔不仅仅探索了她关系的开始。

She's writing about the end of it, too.

她也在写它的结局。

It's the second part of sleeping with your professor.

这是和你的教授睡觉的第二部分。

It's the part where suddenly you go from being the young lover to the caretaker.

这是你突然从年轻情人变成看护者的部分。

And that's an entirely different transition.

这是一个完全不同的转变。

Taking someone to death, that's the most extraordinary experience there is.

将某人置于死地，这是最非凡的经历。

And so in some ways, who kissed whom first seems really small in the length of this journey.

因此，从某些方面来说，谁先亲吻了谁，对于这段旅程的长度来说似乎真的很小。

Jill always thought that the more interesting way to write memoir would be to return again and again to a monumental moment in a life, rather than telling the story in order all the way through.

Revisiting a story doesn't necessarily make it any better, she says.

她说，重温一个故事并不一定会让它变得更好。

But it does make it different.

但它确实让它与众不同。

Even when we write about the past, we're always telling a story about the present, whether we mean to or not.

即使当我们写过去时，我们总是在讲述现在的故事，无论我们是否有意。

Susan Burton is one of the producers of our show.

苏珊·伯顿是我们节目的制片人之一。

Jill Ciment's latest book is a novel called The Body in Question.

吉尔·西门特的最新著作是一本名为《有问题的身体》的小说。

Our program was produced today by Emanuele Berry and Neil Drumming.

今天我们的节目由 Emanuele Berry 和 Neil Drumming 制作。

The people who put our show together today include Bim Adewunmi, Elna Baker, Susan Burton, Ben Calhoun, Dana Chivvis, Sean Cole, Damien Graves, Michelle Harris, Seth Lind, Jessica Lussenhop, Lina Misitzis, Katherine Raimondo, Nadia Reiman, Robyn Semien, Christopher Svetala, and Matt Tierney.

Our managing editor is Diane Wu.

我们的总编辑是 Diane Wu。

Our executive editor is David Kestenbaum.

我们的执行编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。

Special thanks today to Theresa and Ryan Hynes.

今天特别感谢特蕾莎·海因斯和瑞安·海因斯。

Our website, thisamericanlife.org, where you can stream our archive of over 680 episodes for absolutely free.

我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org，您可以在其中完全免费地观看我们的 680 多集档案。

And there's videos, and favorites lists, and tons of other stuff there, too.

还有视频、收藏夹列表以及大量其他内容。

Again, thisamericanlife.org.

再说一次，thisamericanlife.org。

This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.

《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。

Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.

一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。

He and I were running to an appointment this week on this 50-story skyscraper.

本周，我和他要去这座 50 层的摩天大楼赴约。

We stopped first at the 45th story, where we thought our appointment was.

我们首先在 45 层停了下来，我们以为我们的约会就在那里。

We were sure it was 45.

我们确定是 45。

It wasn't right.

这是不对的。

Then we looked on 44, and 46, and 42, and 48.

然后我们查看了 44、46、42 和 48。

I was confused about which story.

我对哪个故事感到困惑。

He was confused about which story.

他对哪个故事感到困惑。

I don't think I understand my story any better than I did at 45.

我认为我对自己的故事的理解并不比 45 岁时更好。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Back next week with more stories of This American Life.

下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。

This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.

《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。

中文为机器翻译，仅供参考。