684: Burn It Down - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #684 | June 19, 2020 684: Burn It Down Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 684 集 | 2020 年 6 月 19 日 684：烧掉它 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass OK, so let's start here.
序言：序言 Ira Glass 好的，让我们从这里开始。
This is a training video for firefighters in Amsterdam.
这是阿姆斯特丹消防员的培训视频。
[SPEAKING DUTCH] Fireman 2 [SPEAKING DUTCH]
[说荷兰语] 消防员 2 [说荷兰语]
Ira Glass Three firemen in an office, drinking coffee, catching up-- and then, one of them, this big bald guy, gets up to show the others this new helmet that he's just gotten, picks up a box off the floor, and says, what is that?
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 办公室里的三名消防员，一边喝着咖啡，一边聊着天——然后，其中一个，这个秃头大个子，站起来向其他人展示他刚得到的这个新头盔，从地板上捡起一个盒子，说，那是什么？
He makes a face.
他做了个鬼脸。
It stinks, too.
也很臭。
He smells his fingers.
他闻着自己的手指。
What is that?
那是什么？
[SPEAKING DUTCH] Ira Glass It's pee.
[说荷兰语] Ira Glass 这是小便。
This conversation understandably turns to speculation on how the pee might have gotten there.
可以理解的是，这次谈话转向了对尿液如何到达那里的猜测。
"Where'd you find this?" he asks.
“你从哪里找到这个的？”他问道。
[SPEAKING DUTCH] Ira Glass At the depot.
[说荷兰语] Ira Glass 在仓库。
[SPEAKING DUTCH] Ira Glass Do you think it was a cat?
[说荷兰语] Ira Glass 你认为那是一只猫吗？
It was not a cat.
那不是一只猫。
[SPEAKING DUTCH] Ira Glass The rest of the video, which is entitled "The Incident With the Helmet," goes on for a few minutes explaining why it is not a good idea to pee in your colleague's helmet, even if it's a joke.
[说荷兰语] Ira Glass 视频的其余部分，标题为“头盔事件”，持续了几分钟，解释了为什么在同事的头盔里撒尿不是一个好主意，即使这是一个笑话。
Like, that can make people feel bad, and unwelcome.
就像，这会让人们感觉不好，不受欢迎。
And the reason the fire department needed a video like this was the firefighters were peeing in their co-workers helmets and their drinks, and had been for years.
消防部门需要这样的视频的原因是消防员在同事的头盔和饮料中撒尿，而且这种情况已经持续多年了。
This was a re-enactment of an actual incident.
这是真实事件的重现。
Amsterdam firefighters had a kind of macho, frat house culture.
阿姆斯特丹消防员有一种男子气概的兄弟会文化。
And for women who came to work there, or anybody who wasn't white, it was rough in all kinds of ways-- pranks, bullying, racist jokes, sexist comments.
对于来这里工作的女性，或者任何非白人来说，这里的一切都很粗暴——恶作剧、欺凌、种族主义笑话、性别歧视言论。
Women described the environment as alienating.
女性形容环境令人疏远。
One Moroccan-Dutch firefighter said, "What we want is not super special.
一名摩洛哥裔荷兰消防员说：“我们想要的并不是特别特别。
We just want normal behavior, normal treatment of people."
我们只想要正常的行为，正常的对待人们。”
The bosses had problems with them, too.
老板们也对他们有意见。
The firefighters would simply ignore certain orders to change the way they worked.
消防员会无视某些改变他们工作方式的命令。
Back in 2011, the mayor of Amsterdam commanded them to do some straightforward things, like perform more home inspections, pass out smoke detectors, switch from 24-hour shifts to 8-hour shifts.
早在 2011 年，阿姆斯特丹市长就命令他们做一些简单的事情，比如进行更多的房屋检查、分发烟雾探测器、从 24 小时轮班改为 8 小时轮班。
A year passed, and another, and another.
一年过去了，又一年，又一年。
After five years-- still nothing.
五年过去了——仍然一无所获。
They'd pretty much blown off his requests.
他们几乎拒绝了他的要求。
Paul Vughts is a reporter at Amsterdam's biggest newspaper, Het Parool.
Paul Vughts 是阿姆斯特丹最大报纸《Het Parool》的记者。
He's covered the fire department for over 20 years.
他在消防部门工作了 20 多年。
He put his fist on the table and said, "And now, it's over.
他把拳头放在桌子上，说道：“现在，一切都结束了。
And now, I'll send you a strong man.
现在，我要派一个强者给你。
He'll change the fire brigade in the way I want it to change."
他会按照我希望的方式改变消防队。”
The strong man the mayor brought in was a guy named Leen Schaap.
市长请来的强者是一个名叫利恩·沙普的家伙。
His firefighting experience before this-- nothing.
他之前的消防经验——什么也没有。
He spent his whole career working at the Amsterdam Police Department.
他的整个职业生涯都在阿姆斯特丹警察局工作。
And he wasn't just an outsider-- he was somebody with a reputation for being a real hard ass.
而且他不仅仅是一个局外人——他还是一个以硬汉着称的人。
I expected a riot because the way they live in the fire stations, being all day and nights, they're together-- cook together, sleep together-- that makes, in the end, that outsiders don't get in easy.
我预料到会发生骚乱，因为他们在消防站的生活方式是日日夜夜，他们在一起——一起做饭，一起睡觉——这最终使得外人不容易进入。
Here in Amsterdam, the fire stations are really like small castles in the neighborhood.
在阿姆斯特丹，消防站就像附近的小城堡。
There's 19 fire stations all around Amsterdam.
阿姆斯特丹周围有 19 个消防站。
There were 750 firefighters-- 500 full-time, 250 volunteer-- a brigade with the same problems as lots of brigades here in the United States.
有 750 名消防员——500 名全职消防员，250 名志愿者——这个消防队与美国许多消防队面临着同样的问题。
And for sure, not all firehouses are like this.
当然，并非所有消防站都是这样。
But it's not hard to find examples.
但不难找到例子。
Outside of Chicago, male firefighters broke down their female co-worker's shower door while she was in there, showering.
在芝加哥郊外，当女同事正在淋浴时，男消防员打破了她的淋浴门。
The chief handed her a towel and said, "Relax.
酋长递给她一条毛巾，说道：“放心吧。”
It's firehouse fun." In Houston, women say their male co-workers peed on their beds, and when they complained, they were labeled troublemakers.
这是消防站的乐趣。”在休斯顿，女性说她们的男同事在她们的床上撒尿，当她们抱怨时，她们被贴上了麻烦制造者的标签。
The city could not substantiate those claims, but the Trump Justice Department has stepped in on the women's side.
该市无法证实这些说法，但特朗普司法部已介入女性方面。
In Miami and New York, black fire department employees found nooses at work.
在迈阿密和纽约，黑人消防局员工在工作中发现了绞索。
In Michigan, a black firefighter found a banana on the windshield of his truck.
在密歇根州，一名黑人消防员在他的卡车挡风玻璃上发现了一根香蕉。
Amsterdam is one of the rare examples of a city that really decides to take on the "boys club" culture in firehouses.
阿姆斯特丹是真正决定在消防站推行“男孩俱乐部”文化的城市的罕见例子之一。
And the firefighters don't lay down.
消防员也不会躺下。
They fight every step of the way.
他们每一步都在战斗。
And one thing that's unusual about the guy running this department, Leen Schaap, is that he is shockingly frank about just how messed up his department really is.
负责这个部门的人 Leen Schaap 的一个不寻常之处在于，他对他的部门到底有多么混乱的情况坦诚得令人震惊。
One of his tactics is to be utterly transparent, and show the public what he learns is happening behind the closed doors of the firehouses.
他的策略之一就是做到完全透明，向公众展示他所了解到的消防站紧闭的大门背后正在发生的事情。
He's also blunt about the pushback he gets.
他对自己受到的阻力也直言不讳。
And so, unlike other fire departments and police departments with similar problems, in this case, for once, we see exactly how bad things were, laid bare.
因此，与其他有类似问题的消防部门和警察部门不同，在这种情况下，我们第一次清楚地看到事情有多么糟糕。
And we also see all the resistance when somebody comes in and tries to change it.
当有人介入并试图改变它时，我们也看到了所有的阻力。
We see just how hard that is to accomplish.
我们看到实现这一目标有多么困难。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today on our show, we have this very unusual look inside a place like this.
今天在我们的节目中，我们在这样的地方看到了非常不寻常的景象。
Reporter Joanna Kakissis has been digging into this for months.
记者乔安娜·卡基西斯几个月来一直在对此进行深入研究。
That'll be Act One of today's show.
这将是今天节目的第一幕。
And this is such an embattled department that the only way Joanna could get most of the firefighters to talk to her was to change their names and replace their voices.
这是一个陷入困境的部门，乔安娜让大多数消防员与她交谈的唯一方法就是改变他们的名字并更换他们的声音。
So you're going to be hearing a bunch of that in what's about to follow.
所以你会在接下来的内容中听到很多这样的内容。
Basically, only Leen Schaap and one of his main opponents let us use their voices.
基本上，只有 Leen Schaap 和他的主要对手之一让我们使用他们的声音。
Our producer, Miki Meek, reported this with Joanna.
我们的制片人米基·米克向乔安娜报道了这一点。
You'll hear Miki's voice in there, now and then, asking questions.
你会时不时地听到 Miki 的声音，问问题。
Here's Joanna.
这是乔安娜。
To take on a bunch of tough guys, the mayor hired someone who was used to being the toughest guy in the room.
为了对付一群硬汉，市长聘请了一个习惯于成为房间里最硬汉的人。
Leen Schaap climbed to the upper ranks of the Amsterdam Police Department by speaking his mind, and not caring who didn't like it.
利恩·沙普（Leen Schaap）通过说出自己的想法而登上了阿姆斯特丹警察局的高层，并且不在乎谁不喜欢。
He got things done by moving quickly and aggressively.
他通过快速而积极的行动来完成任务。
He ran the riot squad.
他负责防暴队。
He was known in town for forcing out anarchists squatting in a full city block of abandoned homes.
他因驱逐占据整个城区废弃房屋的无政府主义者而在镇上出名。
Amsterdam is a progressive city, and sympathy was with the squatters.
阿姆斯特丹是一座进步的城市，人们对占屋者表示同情。
Lots of people hated Leen for what he did.
很多人讨厌李恩的所作所为。
They threw paint bombs at him.
他们向他投掷油漆弹。
My interviews with him are filled with these kind of tough guy cliches.
我对他的采访充满了这种硬汉的陈词滥调。
[SPEAKING DUTCH] Interpreter This is a battle, and one of us is going to win it.
[说荷兰语] 翻译这是一场战斗，我们中的一个人将赢得这场战斗。
And it's not going to be you.
而且不会是你。
Sometimes, it was hard to keep a straight face.
有时，很难保持板着脸。
I'm in the fire department, so I'm not really worried about getting burned.
我在消防队工作，所以我并不担心被烧伤。
Leen smiled.
莱恩笑了。
He knows when he's laying it on thick.
他知道什么时候该把它铺得很厚。
He's intense, with reddish-brown hair and blue eyes that look incredibly icy if you've pissed him off.
他很热情，有着红棕色的头发和蓝色的眼睛，如果你惹恼了他，他的眼睛就会显得异常冰冷。
His first week on the job, there's a welcome lunch for him.
他上班的第一周，我们为他准备了欢迎午餐。
Firefighters don't show up.
消防员没有出现。
Then, he gets an anonymous letter telling him not to enter any fire stations.
然后，他收到一封匿名信，告诉他不要进入任何消防局。
He goes anyway, and he notices right away there's nowhere for him to park.
不管怎样，他还是去了，但他立刻发现没有地方可以停车。
The fire station's parking spaces are filled with recreational vehicles.
消防局的停车位停满了休闲车。
Boats with caravans, with camper vans-- because basically, the firefighters were using this area around the firehouse as their private space, saying, we're here 24 hours.
有大篷车和露营车的船只——因为基本上，消防队员将消防站周围的这个区域用作他们的私人空间，说，我们24小时都在这里。
This is kind of our house.
这就是我们的房子。
This is our place.
这是我们的地方。
Leen gave firefighters their first order.
莱恩向消防队员发出了第一个命令。
He said, get all your personal stuff out of here.
他说，把你所有的私人物品都拿走。
Then, they said, you don't run the show.
然后，他们说，你不主持这个节目。
You are not the one who decides this.
你不是决定这件事的人。
"You don't run this.
“你不运行这个。
What's your problem?" That's what I said.
你有什么问题吗？”我就是这么说的。
"What's your problem?"
“你有什么问题吗？”
And kind of belittling-- "why are you getting so worked up about this little boat we have?"
有点贬低——“你为什么对我们拥有的这艘小船如此激动？”
I told them, you have to get these boats and the camper vans out of here.
我告诉他们，你们必须把这些船和露营车从这里运走。
If not, I'm going to hire somebody to take all that stuff away.
如果没有的话，我会雇人把所有这些东西拿走。
And they were like, oh, go ahead.
他们就像，哦，继续吧。
And I took a step forward, and stood my ground.
我向前迈出了一步，坚定了自己的立场。
You know, I threatened to take a police crane and lift it out of there.
你知道，我威胁要拿一辆警用起重机把它从那里抬起来。
Firefighters were furious, and thought Leen was acting too much like an uptight cop.
消防队员非常愤怒，认为莱恩的行为太像一个紧张的警察了。
But everyone complied.
但大家都答应了。
They got rid of their boats and campers.
他们扔掉了船只和露营车。
Except for one guy, who ignored Leen and defiantly brought a boat right back-- the only boat in the parking lot.
除了一个人，他无视了莱恩，挑衅地带了一艘船回来——停车场里唯一的船。
Leen put him on probation and moved him to another firehouse.
莱恩让他缓刑并把他转移到另一个消防站。
It was one of his first disciplinary actions.
这是他的第一个纪律处分。
The guy retaliated by not coming to work, and taking the department to court.
该男子以不来上班作为报复，并将该部门告上法庭。
Leen was figuring things out pretty fast.
李恩很快就把事情弄清楚了。
He estimated there were about 50 of these guys in the entire department-- guys who joined the brigade decades ago, and now ran their fire stations.
他估计整个部门大约有 50 名这样的人，他们是几十年前加入消防队的，现在负责管理消防站。
They kept tabs on their bosses through a private Whatsapp channel.
他们通过私人 Whatsapp 渠道密切关注自己的老板。
Some firefighters called them "The Brotherhood." Leen always called them--
一些消防员称他们为“兄弟会”。莱恩总是称呼他们——
The angry white men.
愤怒的白人。
We still have them.
我们仍然有它们。
Angry white men, he says, who are against any change that would force them out of their golden cages.
他说，愤怒的白人反对任何迫使他们走出金笼的改变。
He knew guys exactly like this in his police department days.
他在警察局的时候就认识这样的人。
These are tough guys, some born and raised in Amsterdam, or in the streets.
他们都是硬汉，有些在阿姆斯特丹或街头出生和长大。
They're built like a refrigerator.
它们的构造就像冰箱一样。
They have lots of tattoos.
他们有很多纹身。
They have a big mouth.
他们有一张大嘴。
They're not so much super smart, but they're cunning.
他们不是那么聪明，但他们很狡猾。
And if you try to approach them with too much nuance, then you're not going to make it, because they know how to play you.
如果你试图用太多的细微差别来接近他们，那么你就不会成功，因为他们知道如何玩弄你。
And then, a few months into his job, Moroccan-Dutch firefighters on the force started coming to him about a particular guy, one of The Brotherhood, who called them "cancer Moroccans." In Dutch, this is a racial slur.
然后，在他工作几个月后，部队中的摩洛哥裔荷兰消防员开始向他询问一个特定的人，兄弟会的一名成员，他称他们为“癌症摩洛哥人”。在荷兰语中，这是一种种族歧视。
When I asked for an English equivalent, someone told me "cancer Moroccan" is like saying "fucking Moroccan scum."
当我询问英语对应词时，有人告诉我“摩洛哥癌症”就像在说“他妈的摩洛哥人渣”。
And also, when he was supposed to put out fires in Amsterdam-West, where there's a lot of Muslims living, he would say that he had to go to the caliphate.
而且，当他应该去扑灭居住着很多穆斯林的阿姆斯特丹西区的火灾时，他会说他必须去哈里发国。
This guy had a long list of charges against him.
这个人对他提出了一长串指控。
He walked around in a Nazi jacket, he threatened to nail a crucifix to the shower door of a Muslim firefighter, and he refused to go to a fire drill at a mosque.
他穿着纳粹夹克走来走去，威胁要在一名穆斯林消防员的淋浴门上钉一个十字架，他拒绝参加清真寺的消防演习。
Again, Leen--
再说一遍，莱恩——
This is really wrong.
这确实是错误的。
What if there's a fire in a mosque?
如果清真寺发生火灾怎么办？
Will he do his job?
他会做好他的工作吗？
Will he save the people if he doesn't want to go in there now, for the practice?
如果他现在不想进去炼功，他会救人吗？
And as a first responder in this multicultural city, you can't say that you don't want to go somewhere because of religion.
作为这个多元文化城市的第一反应者，你不能说你因为宗教而不想去某个地方。
So when I heard about this case, I thought, I have to do something about this.
所以当我听说这个案子时，我想，我必须为此做点什么。
I can't lead this life.
我无法过这样的生活。
Leen fired him.
莱恩解雇了他。
It was the first time racism had been cited as a reason to fire someone from the Amsterdam Fire Department.
这是阿姆斯特丹消防局首次将种族主义作为解雇人员的理由。
So he'd gotten rid of the boats, he'd fired a guy for racism-- progress.
所以他扔掉了这些船，他解雇了一个因为种族主义而进步的人。
But The Brotherhood started a petition for the firefighter to get his job back.
但兄弟会向消防员发起请愿，要求他恢复工作。
How did you feel about that?
你对此有何感想？
Leen Schaap [SPEAKING DUTCH]
Leen Schaap [荷兰语]
Interpreter It really opened my eyes.
翻译真是让我大开眼界。
Instead of uniting around the people who were discriminated against, they united against the person who was discriminating, and they formed a block around him.
他们没有团结在受歧视的人周围，而是团结起来反对歧视的人，并在他周围形成了一个群体。
The problem ran so much deeper than Leen thought.
问题比莱恩想象的要严重得多。
Why wouldn't they want to stick up for the guy getting harassed?
为什么他们不愿意为受到骚扰的人挺身而出？
For Leen, it was obvious.
对于李恩来说，这是显而易见的。
He instinctively sided with the firefighter getting picked on, and he didn't understand anyone who didn't.
他本能地站在消防员被欺负的一边，他不理解任何不这样做的人。
That empathy for the outsider-- it made Leen an unusual commander.
对局外人的同情心使莱恩成为一名不同寻常的指挥官。
So he started investigating to figure out just how bad things were.
于是他开始调查，想弄清楚事情究竟有多糟糕。
The numbers were not encouraging.
这些数字并不令人鼓舞。
When Leen started, there were only five female firefighters on the entire full-time force of 500.
Leen 刚开始工作时，整个 500 名全职消防员中只有 5 名女性消防员。
The fire department is not allowed to record race, but he estimates that only around 10% of the force were people of color.
消防部门不允许记录种族情况，但他估计消防部门中只有大约 10% 是有色人种。
These numbers didn't reflect the city at all.
这些数字根本没有反映这个城市的情况。
At least a third of Amsterdam's population is non-white.
阿姆斯特丹至少有三分之一的人口是非白人。
Leen visited the fire stations, and talked to firefighters over coffee at the long lunch tables there.
莱恩参观了消防局，并在长长的午餐桌上与消防员喝咖啡交谈。
And he learned that lots of them liked the changes he was bringing in.
他了解到他们中的很多人都喜欢他带来的改变。
He had a silent band of support.
他有一群默默的支持。
He asked people about their experiences in the department, and to his surprise, people opened up to him.
他向人们询问他们在该部门的经历，令他惊讶的是，人们向他敞开了心扉。
Through their stories, he started to get a sense of what it was like to be a person of color or a woman in his fire department.
通过他们的故事，他开始了解作为消防部门的有色人种或女性是什么样的感觉。
Moroccan and Surinamese-Dutch firefighters said they were called rats and monkeys.
摩洛哥和苏里南-荷兰消防员称他们被称为老鼠和猴子。
The Brotherhood told some they didn't belong-- that firefighters should be Dutch, and white.
兄弟会告诉一些人他们不属于消防员——消防员应该是荷兰人，而且是白人。
One Muslim firefighter I'm calling Ali told me that over time, he learned to go along with the racial slurs.
一位我打电话给阿里的穆斯林消防员告诉我，随着时间的推移，他学会了接受种族歧视。
So when his co-workers called him "bin Laden," he acted like he wasn't upset.
因此，当他的同事称他为“本·拉登”时，他表现得并没有感到不安。
You have to ignore it.
你必须忽略它。
If they find out that you don't like it, they'll keep on coming back, and back, and back.
如果他们发现你不喜欢它，他们会不断回来。
Have you ever reported discrimination in the past?
您过去曾举报过歧视吗？
It wasn't possible to do that.
这是不可能的。
Nobody does that.
没有人这样做。
You could report whatever you want, but nothing was going to happen.
你可以举报任何你想要的事情，但什么也不会发生。
In the worst of cases, when it really got out of hand, what you would just do is shake hands on it and get it over.
在最坏的情况下，当事情真的失控时，你要做的就是握手并结束它。
The one accused-- he'll just say, come on, man.
被指控的人 - 他只会说，来吧，伙计。
It was a joke.
这是一个笑话。
And nothing's going to happen.
什么也不会发生。
Leen hired a consultant to help him reach out to women who'd quit the department.
莱恩聘请了一名顾问来帮助他接触那些退出该部门的女性。
They felt like they never belonged.
他们感觉自己从来没有归属过。
They said harassment and belittlement happened every hour of the day.
他们说骚扰和贬低每天每小时都在发生。
One woman said men in her station asked her to leave the room so they could comment on her ass.
一名女士说，她所在站的男人要求她离开房间，以便他们可以评论她的屁股。
Men told women to sit in the windows of the firehouse as if they were prostitutes in the red light district.
男人们让女人坐在消防站的窗户里，就像她们是红灯区的妓女一样。
During job interviews, women were asked how they do their jobs on their periods.
在求职面试中，女性被问及她们在月经期间如何工作。
One of the few female officers in the Amsterdam Fire Department is a woman I'm calling Judy.
阿姆斯特丹消防局为数不多的女警官之一，我称之为朱迪。
The guys respected her.
伙计们都很尊重她。
She was strong, physically, and she was tough-- had no problem standing up to these guys.
她身体强壮，性格坚韧——毫无问题地对抗这些家伙。
But even she felt like she was constantly being tested, like when a firefighter under her command purposely opened his towel in front of her.
但就连她也觉得自己一直在接受考验，就像她麾下的消防员故意在她面前打开毛巾一样。
When she suggested that her boss has not put women into fire stations alone, but with other women, one of her superiors called her a "highly educated moaning female."
当她暗示她的老板没有将女性单独送入消防站，而是与其他女性一起送入消防站时，她的一位上级称她为“受过高等教育的呻吟女性”。
One night, she was doing her rounds, checking in on everyone, and stopped by the canteen.
一天晚上，她在巡视每个人的情况下，在食堂停下来。
I was saying good night to everybody.
我向大家道晚安。
And then, they were sitting and watching porn.
然后，他们就坐着看色情片。
No. So I didn't say anything about that.
不，所以我对此什么也没说。
Porn was a regular thing in the common areas of lots of the stations.
在许多电视台的公共区域，色情内容已是家常便饭。
I don't know why I didn't say anything.
我不知道为什么我什么也没说。
I didn't feel comfortable to say it, probably.
我可能不太愿意说出来。
It's also me being influenced by The Brotherhood, I think.
我想，我也受到了兄弟会的影响。
Because saying something-- it's always uncomfortable to say that.
因为说某事——说出来总是让人不舒服。
So yeah, I have to admit that I've avoided it, too.
所以是的，我必须承认我也避免了它。
Everyone's grip on what was normal was out of whack.
每个人对正常事物的把握都是不正常的。
Judy remembers a woman at a fire station who had this particular bedtime ritual.
朱迪记得消防站的一位女士有这种特殊的睡前仪式。
So she would go to bed, and somebody would come to tuck her in.
所以她会去睡觉，会有人来给她盖被子。
Wait.
等等。
They tucked her into bed at night?
晚上他们给她盖被子？
What exactly do you mean?
你到底是什么意思？
Judy Oh, tucking in-- it was like when you put your little one to sleep, and you pull your blankets tight around the person.
朱迪 哦，盖好被子了——就像你让你的小孩子睡觉时，你把毯子拉紧把他裹住一样。
So the guy who would do that said, I'm going to tuck her in.
所以那个会这么做的人说，我要去给她盖被子。
And I felt uncomfortable about that for her.
我对此对她感到不舒服。
I mean, it was her choice.
我的意思是，这是她的选择。
But I would never do that, because it makes a certain situation that I think you should avoid.
但我永远不会那样做，因为它会造成某种我认为你应该避免的情况。
She was fine with it?
她还好吗？
She didn't mind this happening?
她不介意发生这样的事吗？
Well, actually, I don't know.
嗯，实际上，我不知道。
I can't remember ever talking to her about that.
我不记得曾经和她谈论过这件事。
Why?
为什么？
Judy Yeah.
朱迪 是的。
That's a good question.
这是个好问题。
Maybe I might be putting her more in danger.
也许我可能会让她陷入更危险的境地。
Or I might not be helping her.
或者我可能不会帮助她。
Or maybe I was telling myself, well, maybe it's her choice, and she likes it or something.
或者也许我告诉自己，好吧，也许这是她的选择，她喜欢它什么的。
But yeah, I don't know.
但是，是的，我不知道。
Hearing all these stories, Leen realized he had to spell things out-- what is normal behavior in a workplace.
听到所有这些故事，莱恩意识到他必须弄清楚——什么是工作场所的正常行为。
He wrote a manifesto on how to behave like a professional firefighter and sent it out to everyone.
他写了一份关于如何表现得像专业消防员的宣言并将其发送给每个人。
It begins, "All of us are going to act normal."
它的开头是：“我们所有人都会表现得正常。”
"Normal" meant, we don't yell at each other.
“正常”的意思是，我们不会互相吼叫。
We don't steal coffee from the firehouses.
我们不会从消防站偷咖啡。
We don't make offensive comments on social media.
我们不会在社交媒体上发表攻击性评论。
We always wear our uniforms.
我们总是穿着我们的制服。
We don't store our personal tanning beds in the women's dormitories if we're men.
如果我们是男性，我们不会将个人晒黑床存放在女性宿舍中。
If you break the rules, you'll be punished.
如果你违反规则，你就会受到惩罚。
And if you no longer know what "normal" is, please find out.
如果您不再知道什么是“正常”，请找出来。
One of the biggest ways firefighting is not like a normal job-- firefighters work 24-hour shifts.
消防与正常工作最大的区别之一是消防员 24 小时轮班工作。
So everyone lives together.
所以大家都住在一起。
They work out, shop for groceries, cook, watch TV, play soccer, sleep.
他们锻炼、买杂货、做饭、看电视、踢足球、睡觉。
Professional boundaries get blurry.
职业界限变得模糊。
Leen wanted to push the department to 8-hour shifts.
Leen 希望推动该部门实行 8 小时轮班制。
It would make fire stations more like a workplace, and less like a private club.
这将使消防站更像一个工作场所，而不是一个私人俱乐部。
I think the fire department-- many of the firefighters will fight almost literally to the death to defend this 24-hour shift.
我认为消防部门——许多消防员几乎会誓死捍卫这个 24 小时轮班制。
Firefighters liked being together for 24 hours, and hanging out, and then getting a couple days off to spend with their families, or hold down second jobs.
消防员喜欢 24 小时待在一起，闲逛，然后休息几天与家人共度时光，或者从事第二份工作。
And The Brotherhood argued that bonding in the fire station is essential.
兄弟会认为，在消防局建立联系至关重要。
The pushback was so strong that Leen managed to open just one firehouse on 8-hour shifts as an experiment.
由于阻力如此之大，Leen 只开设了一个消防站，每 8 小时轮班一次作为实验。
The Brotherhood pressured firefighters not to transfer there.
兄弟会向消防员施压，要求他们不要转移到那里。
The guys in The Brotherhood are afraid to talk to reporters.
兄弟会的人不敢与记者交谈。
Everyone I reached out to was worried he'd lose his job.
我接触过的每个人都担心他会失业。
But I did get four of them to speak to me on condition that I not use their names.
但我确实让其中四个人跟我说话，但条件是我不透露他们的名字。
I'll call this one Jan.
我称这个为Jan。
He did let me use his real voice.
他确实让我用他的真实声音。
[SPEAKING DUTCH] Joanna Kakissis He said the problem in the department wasn't them.
[说荷兰语] Joanna Kakissis 他说部门的问题不是他们。
It was Leen.
是莱恩。
And tucking women into bed-- he said it wasn't sexist.
还有让女人上床睡觉——他说这不是性别歧视。
I can only confirm that they did it to me, as well.
我只能确认他们也对我这么做了。
And I didn't feel embarrassed about it at that moment.
那一刻我并没有为此感到尴尬。
But--
但是——
The women would tuck you into bed?
女人会把你抱上床吗？
Is that what--
难道是这样——
No, the men.
不，是男人们。
Joanna Kakissis The men would tuck you into bed?
乔安娜·卡基西斯：男人们会把你塞到床上吗？
Yeah, come on.
是的，来吧。
Yeah.
是的。
There are jokes sometimes, you know?
有时候也会有笑话，你知道吗？
I also went to bed, and I stepped in my bed.
我也上床睡觉了，我也踏上了我的床。
And somebody else came from the shower, and he was already, before me, in my bed.
还有一个人洗完澡走了过来，他已经在我之前躺在我的床上了。
So these kind of things happen.
所以这些事情都会发生。
But if you're a woman, and somebody is tucking you into bed, it's a different experience.
但如果你是一个女人，有人给你盖被子上床，那就是一种不同的体验。
And it's--
这是——
Tucking is not something that they want to shock you, or they want to embarrass you, or they--
他们不想让你震惊，或者让你难堪，或者他们——
Yeah.
是的。
But I guess what I'm saying is, OK, there are people who are minorities and who are women.
但我想我想说的是，好吧，有些人是少数族裔，有些人是女性。
They're just too afraid to speak out to you, because they're afraid of repercussions.
他们只是太害怕而不敢对你说话，因为他们害怕受到影响。
Listen.
听。
It's so stupid if I say all the time "it doesn't happen," or "that doesn't happen." It probably happened with one female employee.
如果我一直说“这不会发生”或“那不会发生”，那就太愚蠢了。这可能发生在一名女员工身上。
And probably one female employee left, also.
可能还有一名女员工也离开了。
Do you have to say, then, OK, this is a sexist company, or all the females are bullied, or all the Arabic people are bullied?
那么，你是否必须说，好吧，这是一家性别歧视公司，或者所有女性都被欺负，或者所有阿拉伯人都被欺负？
I don't think so.
我不这么认为。
I asked him about the firefighter Leen fired-- the one who called the Muslim neighborhood in Amsterdam "the caliphate," and used racial slurs on his Moroccan-Dutch co-workers.
我向他询问了莱恩被解雇的消防员的情况——这位消防员称阿姆斯特丹的穆斯林社区为“哈里发国”，并对他的摩洛哥裔荷兰同事使用种族歧视。
What do you mean by that?
你这是什么意思？
Jan To me, it is an incident-- still an incident in a big company.
Jan 对我来说，这是一个事件——仍然是一个大公司的事件。
Don't make it bigger than it is.
不要让它变得比实际更大。
I'm 29 years with my wife, you know?
我和我妻子已经29年了，你知道吗？
If I focus on all the bad things that I said about her then, we would never get married.
如果我把注意力集中在我当时所说的关于她的所有坏话上，我们永远不会结婚。
You don't think they should have fired him earlier?
你不认为他们应该早点解雇他吗？
No, no, no, no. No. You don't have to fire him at all.
不，不，不，不。不，你根本不必解雇他。
As long as he's not running around naked in his roller skates, he's OK with me.
只要他不穿着溜冰鞋赤身裸体跑来跑去，他就对我没问题。
You think he can use a term like "cancer Moroccan"-- and you're not a racist?
你认为他可以使用“摩洛哥癌症”这样的词——而你不是种族主义者？
It's not OK.
这不行。
But in the heat of the discussion, you say things that are not OK, that you are not allowed to say.
但在激烈的讨论中，你会说出一些不好的话，一些不被允许说的话。
And the opposite party will do the same, probably.
而对方大概也会这么做。
Yeah.
是的。
And who is right and who is wrong-- I don't judge that.
谁对谁错——我不去评判。
I was not there.
我不在那儿。
But one thing is for sure-- I know he's not a racist.
但有一件事是肯定的——我知道他不是种族主义者。
How much do you think that the force should adapt to new firefighters?
您认为部队应该在多大程度上适应新消防员？
The thing is-- when we have the feeling that we are forced to change, then it's going to be-- that's, in my opinion, the wrong way.
问题是——当我们感觉我们被迫改变时，那么在我看来，这是错误的方式。
So if you want to change, the trick is not to force it, and do it in a very clever way, that you--
因此，如果你想改变，诀窍就是不要强迫它，而是以一种非常聪明的方式去做，你——
In a very what way?
以什么方式？
Jan In a clever way, that you change without noticing.
Jan 以一种聪明的方式，让你在不知不觉中改变。
That would be the perfect way.
那将是完美的方式。
And this is not happening right now.
而这种情况现在还没有发生。
This is what Leen says he was up against-- a group of men for whom "normal" meant keeping things exactly the way they'd always been.
这就是莱恩所说的他所面对的对手——一群人，对他们来说，“正常”意味着让一切保持原来的样子。
I was just wondering-- doesn't a boss have the right to impose boundaries on workplaces?
我只是想知道——老板没有权利对工作场所施加界限吗？
We are not in this business for him.
我们不是为了他才从事这个行业的。
It's not a job.
这不是一份工作。
It's a way of life, worldwide.
这是全世界的一种生活方式。
So let's make this very clear-- for us, it is not a job.
所以让我们明确一点——对我们来说，这不是一份工作。
It's a way of life.
这是一种生活方式。
Leen's approach to making big institutional change is based on a progressive fairly new management theory, designed to curb lawless organizations.
莱恩进行重大制度变革的方法是基于一种进步的相当新的管理理论，旨在遏制不法组织。
It's essentially-- draw hard boundaries.
本质上是——划定严格的界限。
Make no concessions.
不做出任何让步。
Be consistent, unrelenting.
保持一致，坚持不懈。
And in 10 to 15 years, maybe there'll be a real shift.
10到15年后，也许会发生真正的转变。
It's arduous.
这是艰巨的。
The beginning is the hardest part.
开始是最难的部分。
This approach made a lot of sense to Leen because of his experience on the Amsterdam Police Force.
由于 Leen 在阿姆斯特丹警察部队的经验，这种方法对他来说很有意义。
He helped clean up and reform the department.
他帮助清理和改革该部门。
As a rookie cop, he'd seen the problems firsthand.
作为一名新人警察，他亲眼目睹了这些问题。
He started in a corrupt precinct, the red light district in the 1980s.
他从 20 世纪 80 年代的一个腐败区——红灯区开始。
He says cops stole, sold drugs, were excessively violent.
他说警察偷窃、出售毒品，而且过于暴力。
Changing that meant rigorously enforcing rules, writing up bad cops, disciplining them, firing them.
改变这种状况意味着严格执行规则，记录坏警察，对他们进行纪律处分，甚至解雇他们。
Leen says it took about 10 years for the rules to be accepted as normal.
Leen 说，这些规则花了大约 10 年的时间才被接受为正常。
But this confrontational approach is not the way things usually work in the Netherlands.
但这种对抗性的做法在荷兰并不常见。
You know, the Dutch culture is very much everything peace, everything together, no conflict.
你知道，荷兰文化是一切和平、一切都在一起、没有冲突的文化。
And with the fire department, the traditional recipe is talking, talking, talking.
对于消防部门来说，传统的方法就是说话、说话、说话。
The Dutch have this term, "polder model." They take pride in it.
荷兰人有这个词，“圩田模式”。他们为此感到自豪。
The idea is to bring everyone together, despite their differences, just like their ancestors came together to build dikes and dams to protect their land from the sea.
这个想法是将每个人聚集在一起，尽管他们存在差异，就像他们的祖先聚集在一起建造堤坝和水坝以保护他们的土地免受海洋侵害一样。
Historians debate whether that's actually true.
历史学家争论这是否属实。
But anyway, everyone from Parliament to the local amateur soccer club tries to make decisions this way-- through discussions and consensus.
但无论如何，从议会到当地业余足球俱乐部的每个人都试图通过讨论和共识来做出决定。
Leen did dabble with polder model a little in the beginning.
Leen 一开始确实接触过圩田模型。
He spent his first six months going to fire stations, trying to convince people that diversity would make them a stronger fire department in a city with almost 170 nationalities, and that women bring pragmatism and emotional intelligence to the brigade.
头六个月里，他去了消防站，试图让人们相信，在这个拥有近 170 个民族的城市中，多元化将使他们成为一支更强大的消防队，并且女性会给消防队带来实用主义和情商。
But Leen was almost always met with blank stares.
但莱恩几乎总是遭到茫然的目光。
Guys told him, women aren't strong enough for this job.
伙计们告诉他，女性的力量不足以胜任这份工作。
One of them said, you just want an excuse to bring in a hundred broads.
其中一个说，你只是想找个借口请来一百个女人。
Again, here's Leen.
再说一次，这是莱恩。
Intellectually, it's hard to have these conversations about diversity.
从理智上讲，很难进行有关多样性的对话。
And I don't intend to sound crass, and I don't want to be unkind about my people, but some of them are too stupid to keep having this diversity conversation, and convince them that way.
我不想听起来很粗鲁，我也不想对我的员工不友善，但他们中的一些人太愚蠢了，无法继续进行这种多元化对话，并以这种方式说服他们。
And at some point, you just have to say that we're going to stop talking about it.
在某些时候，你只需说我们将停止谈论它。
We're just going to do it.
我们只是去做而已。
And we're going to do it this way.
我们将这样做。
This is an organization.
这是一个组织。
It's not some kind of democratic kumbaya thing where we're all going to talk about it, and then the majority rules.
这不是某种民主的事情，我们大家都会讨论它，然后由多数人决定。
You can take it or leave it.
你可以接受它，也可以离开它。
He was done reasoning with them.
他已经和他们理论完了。
He didn't have to, after all.
毕竟他没必要这么做。
He had the full support of Mayor Eberhard van der Laan, who was wildly popular.
他得到了广受欢迎的市长埃伯哈德·范德兰的全力支持。
The city adored him.
整个城市都很崇拜他。
He snubbed Vladimir Putin when he was in town because of the Russian leader's anti-LGBT views.
由于弗拉基米尔·普京 (Vladimir Putin) 的反 LGBT 观点，他在城里时冷落了他。
The city council backed the mayor, and he backed Leen-- which meant, with the mayor's support, Leen could do whatever he wanted.
市议会支持市长，他也支持莱恩——也就是说，有了市长的支持，莱恩就可以为所欲为。
And he had a big idea for how to get the kind of accountability he wanted in the fire department.
对于如何在消防部门获得他想要的问责制，他有一个伟大的想法。
Coming up-- you can discipline people, you can threaten their jobs.
接下来——你可以惩罚人们，你可以威胁他们的工作。
But when all else fails, try a talk show.
但当其他方法都失败时，请尝试脱口秀。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's show, "Burn It Down"-- we have two stories of people who think they have no other choice.
今天的节目“烧毁它”——我们有两个故事，讲述的是那些认为自己别无选择的人。
It is time to burn everything down, make enemies, do what has to be done.
是时候烧毁一切、树敌、做必须做的事情了。
We're in the middle of Act One.
我们正处于第一幕的中间。
A policeman burns down a firehouse.
一名警察烧毁了一座消防站。
Joanna Kakissis, in this act, is reporting on the Amsterdam Fire Department, the resistance to change from inside the department, and, in this half of her story, how the bigger politics of the city start to shift everything.
乔安娜·卡基西斯（Joanna Kakissis）在这一幕中报道了阿姆斯特丹消防局、部门内部对变革的抵制，以及在她故事的这一部分中，这座城市的更大政治如何开始改变一切。
Quick program note before we start the second half of this.
在我们开始下半部分之前，请先快速了解一下程序。
Joanna discovered, when she started looking into this story, that the fire commander's partner, who is a journalist, is somebody who Joanna has worked with in the past.
当乔安娜开始调查这个故事时，她发现消防指挥官的搭档是一名记者，他过去曾与乔安娜共事过。
Joanna has not discussed the content of the story with this journalist.
乔安娜尚未与本记者讨论该报道的内容。
The journalist was not involved in this story in any way.
该记者没有以任何方式参与此报道。
Again, here's Joanna.
乔安娜又来了。
Leen had devised a very unusual plan.
莱恩制定了一个非常不寻常的计划。
But to pull it off, he had to enlist the mayor.
但为了实现这一目标，他必须争取市长的支持。
He did something that I've rarely seen any public official do-- he took all his criticisms about his own fire department and made them public.
他做了一件我很少见过任何公职人员做的事情——他将所有对他自己的消防部门的批评公开化。
And by doing so, he made himself the biggest critic of some of the most beloved figures in Amsterdam.
通过这样做，他使自己成为阿姆斯特丹一些最受欢迎的人物的最大批评者。
Imagine the head of the police department in New York or Chicago publishing a long list of all the bad stuff their officers had done.
想象一下，纽约或芝加哥的警察局局长公布了一份长长的清单，列出了他们的警察所做的所有坏事。
It would blow up in their faces.
它会在他们脸上爆炸。
That did not happen to Leen.
但这种事并没有发生在莱恩身上。
Here's how he went about it.
以下是他的做法。
He started by writing a single letter to the mayor detailing his findings about discrimination and bullying at the fire department.
他首先给市长写了一封信，详细说明了他对消防部门歧视和欺凌行为的调查结果。
He read the letter.
他读了这封信。
There was a certain surprise, because I think he literally said, I thought there were all kinds of things going on.
有一定的惊讶，因为我认为他字面意思是，我认为发生了各种各样的事情。
But it turns out there was even more going on than I thought.
但事实证明，发生的事情比我想象的还要多。
But now, I actually have the proof.
但现在，我确实有了证据。
And now, we're going to work on this together.
现在，我们将共同努力解决这个问题。
In response, the mayor wrote his own letter blasting the fire department, and sent it with Leen's to the city council, making them public record.
作为回应，市长自己写了一封信猛烈抨击消防部门，并将其与莱恩的信一起寄给市议会，将其公开记录。
Reporters pounced.
记者猛扑过去。
Did you and the mayor-- did the two of you talk about it as a strategy?
你们和市长有没有讨论过这个策略？
Interpreter It was absolutely my idea.
口译员 这绝对是我的主意。
And I knew it was going to end up in the media.
我知道这最终会出现在媒体上。
I knew this was going to make the papers.
我知道这会登上报纸。
So that was something that I thought before-- that if I write this letter, there's going to be a certain amount of pressure that would get the municipal council, and also the public, to see that something needed to be done.
所以这就是我之前的想法——如果我写这封信，就会产生一定的压力，让市议会和公众看到需要采取一些措施。
This was very, very calculated, even to the point where I did use words that I knew the media would pounce on to get a discussion going.
这是非常非常经过深思熟虑的，甚至到了我确实使用了我知道媒体会抓住的词语来引发讨论的程度。
Interpreter Racism, discrimination, bullying, exclusion-- these are terms that I know are going to get people's attention.
种族主义、歧视、欺凌、排斥——我知道这些术语会引起人们的注意。
It's really unusual for a public official to do something like this.
对于一个公职人员来说，做出这样的事情确实很不寻常。
Yes.
是的。
It is extremely unusual.
这是非常不寻常的。
But it makes it very effective.
但这使它非常有效。
And I looked at what former fire commanders did, and I felt that they didn't use the possibilities they had enough.
我看了前消防指挥官的做法，我觉得他们没有充分利用他们拥有的可能性。
And I consciously decided, I'm going to make war.
我有意识地决定，我要发动战争。
And that means you have to get your hands dirty, and you have to go public.
这意味着你必须亲自动手，并且必须公开。
Do you remember any discussion you had with the mayor, or with anyone else, who was less sure that this was the right way?
您是否还记得您与市长或其他任何人进行过的讨论，他们不太确定这是正确的方法？
What I noticed with the people around me was mostly fear.
我注意到周围的人大多是恐惧。
And so that was a lot of the people in management here.
所以这里有很多管理人员。
They supported me, but they were kind of reticent.
他们支持我，但他们有点沉默寡言。
Because they knew this kind of organization-- if you go looking for a fight, you're going to get a fight.
因为他们知道这种组织——如果你去寻找战斗，你就会遭到战斗。
Did the mayor ever have any reservations about this as a strategy?
市长对此策略有任何保留吗？
Not one second.
一秒钟都没有。
Joanna Kakissis The details in Leen's report landed on the front page of the main newspaper in Amsterdam.
乔安娜·卡基西斯（Joanna Kakissis） 莱恩报告的详细内容登上了阿姆斯特丹主要报纸的头版。
Then, the mayor and Leen went on a media blitz.
然后，市长和莱恩进行了媒体闪电战。
Here's Leen on the radio show, flinging open the doors on what really goes on inside a firehouse.
莱恩在广播节目中打开大门，了解消防站内到底发生了什么。
The host of the program says to Leen, "So, what you found was a very macho culture.
节目主持人对莱恩说：“所以，你发现的是一种非常大男子主义的文化。
Can you give me some examples of that?"
你能给我举一些例子吗？”
Well, if you're sitting at a table, and you're Moroccan, and something comes on TV about Islam, then people start talking about "those cancer Moroccans." And when you're sitting there as a serious professional firefighter, it has an effect on you.
好吧，如果你坐在桌旁，而且你是摩洛哥人，电视上播放一些有关伊斯兰教的内容，那么人们就会开始谈论“那些患有癌症的摩洛哥人”。当你作为一名严肃的专业消防员坐在那里时，它会对你产生影响。
And then, of course, you're the exception.
当然，你是例外。
Like, hey, we don't mean you.
就像，嘿，我们不是指你。
It's those other cancer Moroccans.
这是其他患有癌症的摩洛哥人。
That's one example.
这就是一个例子。
And I've got people telling me I can survive the 24-hour shift.
有人告诉我，我可以熬过 24 小时轮班。
I'll just stay in my room.
我就待在我的房间里吧。
And then, as a group, you could think, oh, OK.
然后，作为一个群体，你可能会想，哦，好吧。
Somebody's spending the whole shift in their room.
有人整个班次都待在自己的房间里。
But you could also think, what's going on here?
但你也可以想，这是怎么回事？
And that's really what I want to happen-- that we're able to engage with each other in a healthy way.
这确实是我想要发生的事情——我们能够以健康的方式相互交流。
People wrote to newspapers saying they were repulsed by the firefighters' behavior.
人们写信给报纸表示，他们对消防员的行为感到厌恶。
City council members said they were shocked.
市议会成员表示，他们感到震惊。
The mayor told Leen to keep pushing on with his reforms.
市长告诉莱恩继续推进他的改革。
But inside the firehouses, Leen's tactics did not go over well.
但在消防站内，莱恩的策略并不顺利。
His support shrunk.
他的支持率下降了。
Even people who agreed with his goals, who thought he was fighting the good fight, felt like he was smearing everyone, lumping them together, making them all look bad.
即使是那些同意他的目标、认为他正在为正义而战的人，也觉得他在抹黑所有人，把他们混为一谈，让他们看起来都很糟糕。
The way that he did that-- he turned every firefighter against him.
他这样做的方式让所有消防员都反对他。
This is a longtime firefighter of color in the brigade.
这是该队的一名长期有色人种消防员。
Leen and the mayor went about it really radically.
莱恩和市长的做法非常彻底。
They used the newspapers to try to turn public opinion against us.
他们利用报纸试图利用舆论来反对我们。
There were very, very hurtful stories in the newspapers that we were racist, that we were sexist-- all kinds of old stories, really, from a decade or more ago were brought back to paint a black picture of us.
报纸上有非常非常伤人的故事，说我们是种族主义者，我们是性别歧视者——实际上，十年或更久以前的各种旧故事都被带回来描绘我们的黑色形象。
And of course, The Brotherhood was pissed.
当然，兄弟会很生气。
It was a public declaration of war.
这是公开宣战。
On social media, firefighters called Leen and the mayor "know-it-all political losers" and "vile," "full of lies." They wrote, "Indict this mayor and have him sued for defamation," and, "Thanks, Leen, we're all painted like a bunch of racists."
在社交媒体上，消防员称莱恩和市长是“无所不知的政治失败者”、“卑鄙”、“充满谎言”。他们写道，“起诉这位市长并以诽谤罪起诉他”，以及“谢谢，莱恩，我们都被描绘成一群种族主义者。”
Inside the firehouses, the atmosphere changed.
消防站内，气氛发生了变化。
Attitudes hardened.
态度变得强硬。
Again, here's Ali, the firefighter of color who says his white co-workers called him bin Laden.
阿里是一位有色人种消防员，他说他的白人同事称他为本·拉登。
He said things got worse for anyone who wasn't white.
他说，对于非白人来说，情况变得更糟。
Something literally broke.
确实有什么东西坏了。
And now, for the first time, you see that people, for instance, won't shake your hand.
现在，你第一次看到人们不会与你握手。
There's this tradition.
有这个传统。
After we put out a fire, we always sit on the side.
救火后，我们总是坐在一旁。
We have a coffee, and all the firemen shake each other's hands.
我们喝了一杯咖啡，所有消防员都互相握手。
That's really a tradition.
这确实是一个传统。
And now, for the first time since I've been here, white firefighters are refusing to shake our hands.
现在，自从我来到这里以来，这是第一次，白人消防员拒绝与我们握手。
Meanwhile, Leen got more done than ever.
与此同时，Leen 完成的工作比以往任何时候都多。
He doubled down on recruitment, went to mosques and dinners during Ramadan, tried to convince more people of color and women to join the fire brigade.
他加倍努力招募人员，在斋月期间去清真寺和聚餐，试图说服更多有色人种和女性加入消防队。
Slowly, those numbers have increased.
慢慢地，这些数字有所增加。
He also backed managers who disciplined bad actors.
他还支持管理者对不良行为者进行纪律处分。
He streamlined work shifts, opened a new firehouse, and improved fire prevention.
他简化了轮班制度，开设了新的消防站，并改善了防火工作。
He made homes safer by sending firefighters door-to-door in the city.
他派消防员在城里挨家挨户上门，让家园变得更安全。
Leen, with the backing of the mayor, was making the kinds of changes he was hired to make, in exactly the way he wanted to make them-- quickly and aggressively.
在市长的支持下，莱恩正在以他想要的方式做出他受雇要做的各种改变——快速而积极。
But then, something happened that Leen hadn't accounted for.
但随后，发生了李恩没有预料到的事情。
Six months into his job, Mayor Eberhard van der Laan revealed he was sick-- lung cancer.
上任六个月后，艾伯哈德·范德兰市长透露自己得了肺癌。
A half year later, he died.
半年后，他去世了。
Immediately, the ground started to shift under Leen.
立刻，莱恩脚下的地面开始发生变化。
When the mayor died, The Brotherhood grew emboldened.
市长去世后，兄弟会变得更加大胆。
Here's Leen.
这是莱恩。
People commented that it was great that he died.
人们评论说他死了真是太好了。
And there was even somebody, when van der Laan was on his deathbed, who said, "Van der Laan, the cockroach, is slipping away."
甚至有人在范德兰临终时说：“范德兰这只蟑螂正在溜走。”
And that was quite shocking-- that somebody is on his deathbed from cancer, and you're rejoicing in that.
这真是令人震惊——有人因癌症濒临死亡，而你却为此感到高兴。
But for them, it really was one enemy less.
但对他们来说，确实少了一个敌人。
Soon, a campaign to push Leen out of his job kicked into high gear.
很快，一场迫使莱恩下台的运动就进入了高潮。
Retired firefighters and unions rallied around The Brotherhood, publicly demanding that the city investigate Leen for bad mouthing the fire department in the media.
退休消防员和工会聚集在兄弟会周围，公开要求市政府调查莱恩在媒体上诽谤消防部门的行为。
Firefighters did interviews anonymously, denouncing Leen in a conservative newspaper, the biggest paper in the Netherlands.
消防员进行了匿名采访，在荷兰最大的保守派报纸上谴责了莱恩。
From the moment the mayor announced he was sick, Leen started getting anonymous death threats.
从市长宣布自己生病的那一刻起，莱恩就开始收到匿名的死亡威胁。
One letter said a hitman was being hired.
一封信说正在雇用一名杀手。
Another targeted his 14-year-old daughter.
另一个目标是他 14 岁的女儿。
He was told the threats were coming from inside the fire department.
他被告知威胁来自消防部门内部。
In the summer of 2018, Amsterdam got an energetic new mayor, the first woman in the city's history-- Femke Halsema.
2018 年夏天，阿姆斯特丹迎来了一位充满活力的新市长，她是该市历史上第一位女性——Femke Halsema。
She was Leen's new boss, and spent many years in parliament as a high-profile lawmaker representing the left-wing Green Party, a champion of women's rights.
她是莱恩的新老板，在议会工作多年，是代表左翼绿党、女权捍卫者的高调立法者。
As a politician, she pushed for tax breaks to address poverty.
作为一名政治家，她推动减税以解决贫困问题。
She also wrote newspaper columns, and made a documentary about Muslim women.
她还撰写报纸专栏，并制作了一部关于穆斯林妇女的纪录片。
Mayor Halsema condemned the death threats against Leen, and publicly threw her support behind him.
哈尔瑟玛市长谴责了针对莱恩的死亡威胁，并公开表示支持他。
But not long after she started, Leen remembers her stopping by for a private meeting.
但开始后不久，莱恩记得她顺便来参加一次私人会议。
He told her about some of the changes he was trying to make.
他告诉她他正在尝试做出的一些改变。
Her reaction shocked him.
她的反应让他震惊。
When we were having this conversation about racism and discrimination, the mayor herself came with the following example.
当我们谈论种族主义和歧视时，市长本人举了以下例子。
Apparently, she heard from one of the fire stations, or one of the fireman told her, that we have a number of black colleagues working here--
显然，她从其中一个消防站那里听说，或者一位消防员告诉她，我们有很多黑人同事在这里工作——
--and there was one that all the other firefighters were calling "Haar," which is a Dutch name.
——还有一个被所有其他消防员称为“Haar”的荷兰名字。
And that wasn't his name.
那不是他的名字。
It was a racist wordplay joke.
这是一个种族主义文字游戏笑话。
They looked for reasons to say no to him so they could say, "No, Haar," or in Dutch, "Nee, Haar," which means Negro.
他们寻找理由对他说“不”，这样他们就可以说“不，哈尔”，或者用荷兰语说“尼，哈尔”，意思是黑人。
The mayor laughed about this and said, this is really funny.
市长对此笑了，说，这真是太好笑了。
I find this extremely hilarious.
我觉得这非常搞笑。
She seriously laughed?
她是认真笑的吗？
Leen Schaap [SPEAKING DUTCH]
Leen Schaap [荷兰语]
Interpreter She laughed very loudly.
翻译 她笑得很大声。
And for me, that was really a pivotal moment, in which I realized, I am fighting against all this, and I am dealing with a mayor who thinks this is funny.
对我来说，那确实是一个关键时刻，我意识到，我正在与这一切作斗争，而我正在与一位认为这很有趣的市长打交道。
I told her I was immensely shocked that she had to laugh about these so-called humorous remarks.
我告诉她，我对她竟然对这些所谓的幽默言论发笑感到非常震惊。
And I really asked her, what is going wrong here?
我真的问她，这里出了什么问题？
Mayor Halsema, via email, denied Leen's account.
哈尔瑟玛市长通过电子邮件否认了莱恩的说法。
She said she's only told the joke in meetings as an example of, quote, "intolerable behavior that's not always recognized as such by firefighters." For Leen, that moment crystallized the world of difference between his old and new boss.
她说，她只是在会议上讲这个笑话，作为“消防员并不总是认识到的令人无法容忍的行为”的一个例子。对于莱恩来说，那一刻明确了他的新老老板之间的差异。
After that, he gave up on her.
在那之后，他放弃了她。
Mayor Halsema had, like the rest of Amsterdam, seen Leen's fight with the firefighters play out in the media, and she didn't like it.
哈尔瑟玛市长和阿姆斯特丹的其他人一样，在媒体上看到了莱恩与消防员的争斗，她不喜欢这样。
She liked talking up problems and reaching consensus-- the Dutch way.
她喜欢讨论问题并达成共识——这是荷兰人的方式。
Fire department managers who sat in on meetings with the new mayor and Leen said it was clear right away that they didn't get along-- that sometimes, he was abrasive.
参加与新市长和莱恩会面的消防部门经理表示，很明显，他们相处得不好——有时，他很粗暴。
Their styles were totally different.
他们的风格完全不同。
They called the mayor "Tai Chi," and Leen "Boxing."
他们称市长为“太极”，称李恩为“拳击”。
The mayor ordered her own investigation into the fire department.
市长下令对消防部门进行调查。
The new investigation acknowledged there were problems, but it concluded that overall, the fire department was, quote, "at its core not a racist or sexist organization," and it called on Leen to take a different approach, and build trust with firefighters.
新的调查承认存在问题，但得出的结论是，总体而言，消防部门“其核心不是种族主义或性别歧视组织”，并呼吁莱恩采取不同的方法，与消防员建立信任。
A city hall reporter told me this report basically threw Leen under the bus.
一位市政厅记者告诉我，这份报告基本上让莱恩蒙羞。
When it came out at the end of 2018, Leen had been on the job for about two and a half years.
当该书于 2018 年底出版时，Leen 已经从事该工作约两年半了。
I spoke to him around this time.
我大约在这个时候和他谈过。
He seemed unfazed by the report.
他似乎对这份报告并不担心。
He was still going about the business of reforming the fire department, and airing its dirty laundry, like this problem firefighter.
他仍在致力于改革消防部门，并揭露其脏乱差，就像这位有问题的消防员一样。
He's not fired yet, but I'm going to fire him.
他还没有被解雇，但我要解雇他了。
So here's the situation.
情况是这样的。
There was a group of firefighters in a supermarket, because they were doing shopping for their firehouse.
一家超市里有一群消防员，因为他们正在为消防站购物。
They were all in their uniforms, standing at the register.
他们都穿着制服，站在收银台前。
And at the register, there was also an elderly lady on a mobility scooter.
收银台前，还有一位骑着代步车的老太太。
She's trying to pay for her groceries, and 150 euros falls out of her pocket.
她正试图支付杂货费，结果 150 欧元从口袋里掉了出来。
And one of the firemen sees that-- that she drops this money-- and puts it into his sock, and walks out with it.
一名消防员看到了——她把钱掉在地上了——然后把它放进了他的袜子里，然后拿着它走了出去。
Well, some time passes, and the elderly lady goes home, and she realizes her money's gone.
好吧，过了一段时间，老太太回到家，她意识到她的钱不见了。
The woman checked back with the store about her missing cash, and security camera showed one of Leen's men putting her money in a sock.
这名女子向商店核实了她丢失的现金，监控摄像头显示莱恩的一名手下将她的钱放进了一只袜子里。
Taking an old lady's money while you're wearing your firefighter's uniform-- of course, that did not fly with Leen.
穿着消防员制服拿老太太的钱——当然，这对莱恩来说是不可行的。
The police got involved.
警察介入了。
It was embarrassing and outrageous.
这是令人尴尬和令人愤慨的。
[SPEAKING DUTCH] Interpreter But the reaction isn't like, oh my god, I can't believe he stole that money.
[说荷兰语] 翻译 但反应并不是这样，天哪，我不敢相信他偷了那笔钱。
Instead, the reaction is that it's ridiculous that I'm going to fire him, because he returned the money to the police.
相反，人们的反应是，我要解雇他，这太荒谬了，因为他把钱还给了警察。
[SPEAKING DUTCH] Joanna Kakissis This spring, a group of firefighters showed up at a city council meeting to air their grievances against Leen.
[荷兰语] 乔安娜·卡基西斯 今年春天，一群消防员出现在市议会会议上，表达了他们对莱恩的不满。
Also, they're retired firefighters.
而且，他们是退休消防员。
A firefighter named Mike Snijder stood at a podium.
一位名叫迈克·斯奈德的消防员站在讲台上。
He's clean cut, has a baby face.
他五官干净，长着一张娃娃脸。
He read a statement.
他读了一份声明。
Interpreter Enough is enough.
口译员够了。
Even though I'm taking a huge risk by speaking here today, I'm willing to take that risk for my colleagues who are having complete mental breakdowns.
尽管我今天在这里发言冒着巨大的风险，但我愿意为精神完全崩溃的同事冒这个风险。
Our leaders have chosen to bad mouth us in the media, and that makes us feel unsafe, both in public and at the fire stations, too, where we're constantly walking on eggshells.
我们的领导人选择在媒体上说我们的坏话，这让我们感到不安全，无论是在公共场合还是在消防站，我们总是如履薄冰。
The fire department leadership has proven, time and again, that they aren't interested in building trust.
消防部门领导层一次又一次地证明，他们对建立信任不感兴趣。
There will always be fear and distrust.
恐惧和不信任永远存在。
This is a broken marriage that can't be fixed.
这是一段破碎的婚姻，无法修复。
Joanna Kakissis He said Leen made it so firefighters couldn't do their jobs properly, and that it was threatening the safety of everyone in Amsterdam.
乔安娜·卡基西斯 (Joanna Kakissis) 他说，莱恩制造的这种东西让消防员无法正常工作，而且它威胁着阿姆斯特丹每个人的安全。
A city council person asked him to say more.
一位市议会人士请他多说一些。
Interpreter If we're constantly having to look around to make sure that the leadership isn't looking over our shoulders, then we can't do our job.
口译员 如果我们必须不断环顾四周以确保领导层没有监视我们，那么我们就无法完成我们的工作。
City council is a political position.
市议会是一个政治立场。
You get voted in.
你被投票了。
And, like the fire department, it's mostly white.
而且，就像消防部门一样，它大部分都是白色的。
Under the old mayor, the council was in full support of Leen.
在老市长的领导下，市议会全力支持莱恩。
When he first exposed the racism and sexism in the department two years before this, they'd been on his side.
两年前，当他第一次揭露部门中的种族主义和性别歧视时，他们一直站在他一边。
But now, that was old news.
但现在，那已经是旧闻了。
The public had moved on.
公众已经继续前进。
Amsterdam's a progressive city, but on race, it has blind spots.
阿姆斯特丹是一座进步的城市，但在种族方面，它有盲点。
During the holidays, some people still wear blackface when they dress up as St. Nick's helpers.
节日期间，有些人装扮成圣尼克帮的帮手时，仍然涂黑脸。
And the public shock over the racism and sexism in the department didn't last.
公众对该部门的种族主义和性别歧视的震惊并没有持续太久。
What was more shocking was the way Leen was speaking out.
更令人震惊的是林说话的方式。
The city council was tired of Leen waging this loud, messy fight.
市议会厌倦了莱恩发动这场喧闹、混乱的斗争。
And at this meeting, they were sympathetic to Leen's critics.
在这次会议上，他们对莱恩的批评者表示同情。
Here's one city councilwoman saying, "I know you can't talk to the press, but you can come to me." She also said, "I think it's very brave of you to be here today."
一位市议员女士说：“我知道你不能接受媒体采访，但你可以来找我。”她还说：“我认为你今天来到这里非常勇敢。”
Retired firefighters jumped up from their chairs, gave a standing ovation.
退休消防员从椅子上跳起来，起立鼓掌。
He literally said, I can't do my job because I feel that the boss is looking over my shoulder.
他字面意思是，我无法做好我的工作，因为我觉得老板在监视我。
And like, really?
真的吗？
You can't do your job when somebody is looking at what you're doing?
当有人监视你正在做的事情时，你就无法完成你的工作吗？
Leen says cops use the same arguments to fight any change.
莱恩说，警察用同样的论点来反对任何变革。
How do you alarm public opinion?
如何引起公众舆论的注意？
By suggesting that what we're doing is making the public unsafe.
暗示我们正在做的事情让公众不安全。
If they can't do their job because they're afraid, then that's unsafe for the public.
如果他们因为害怕而无法完成工作，那么这对公众来说是不安全的。
Mayor Halsema did not feel the same way.
哈尔瑟玛市长却不这么认为。
After the meeting, she gave this interview to local news.
会后，她接受了当地新闻采访。
She says, "Of course it's very worrying.
她说：“当然，这非常令人担忧。
If they don't have a good work environment, that could indirectly affect their ability to do their jobs well."
如果他们没有良好的工作环境，可能会间接影响他们做好工作的能力。”
[SPEAKING DUTCH] Joanna Kakissis And, "We do have to take these firefighters' concerns seriously." After that city council meeting, Leen knew he was running out of options.
[荷兰语] Joanna Kakissis 并且，“我们确实必须认真对待这些消防员的担忧。”在那次市议会会议之后，莱恩知道他已经别无选择。
City council had lost faith in him, the mayor was not on his side, and 400 firefighters-- more than half the brigade-- signed a petition saying they didn't trust him to run the department.
市议会对他失去了信心，市长也不站在他一边，400 名消防员（超过消防队的一半）签署了一份请愿书，表示他们不相信他能够管理这个部门。
Inside the fire department, Leen's supporters started to hear rumors.
在消防部门内部，莱恩的支持者开始听到谣言。
I caught up with some of them in May, not long after the city council meeting.
五月份，市议会会议结束后不久，我采访了其中的一些人。
Do you think Commander Schaap is about to get fired?
你认为沙普指挥官会被解雇吗？
I hope it's not fast.
我希望它不会很快。
I hope he doesn't leave.
我希望他不要离开。
Again here's, Ali.
又来了，阿里。
Joanna Kakissis What would that mean for you, personally, if he was?
乔安娜·卡基西斯（Joanna Kakissis） 如果他是的话，这对你个人来说意味着什么？
I'd be very disappointed.
我会非常失望。
What he did is give minorities a platform where they could speak out.
他所做的就是为少数族裔提供一个可以发声的平台。
And that wasn't there before him.
而这在他之前是不存在的。
Now, we're in direct contact with the upper echelons of management.
现在，我们与高层管理人员直接接触。
We can immediately reach them, ask for help-- we get a lot of support.
我们可以立即联系他们，寻求帮助——我们得到了很多支持。
And that definitely makes a difference.
这绝对会带来不同。
Leen had been there almost three years, and Ali, and a couple of female managers, told me they were finally starting to see change.
莱恩在那里已经快三年了，阿里和几位女性经理告诉我，她们终于开始看到变化。
Firefighters were thinking twice before making racist and sexist comments.
消防员在发表种族主义和性别歧视言论之前三思而后行。
Everybody's more careful now.
现在大家都更加小心了。
People are really correcting each other.
人们确实在互相纠正。
Still, things happen, and people make jokes like that.
尽管如此，事情还是会发生，人们也会开这样的玩笑。
But someone will say, hey, watch out.
但有人会说，嘿，小心点。
It's something you could have said before in the old days.
这是过去你可以说的话。
Nowadays, you can't do this anymore.
如今，你不能再这样做了。
Now, all the improvements we've seen over the past few years-- if he leaves, you can throw all that in the Amstel River.
现在，过去几年我们看到的所有进步——如果他离开，你可以把所有这些都扔进阿姆斯特尔河。
It's going to be back to square one.
一切都会回到原点。
These angry white men have always been dominant.
这些愤怒的白人一直占据主导地位。
They always decided what went down.
他们总是决定发生什么。
Does the city-- does the mayor understand that this is now the situation?
市长是否明白现在的情况？
Well, I don't know about the mayor.
呃，我不知道市长怎么样。
She's new.
她是新来的。
But I hope she won't fire him.
但我希望她不会解雇他。
If she does fire him, just shake hands on it with us and say, OK, we don't want people of color in the fire brigade.
如果她确实解雇了他，请与我们握手并说，好吧，我们不希望有色人种加入消防队。
That would be a fair way to go about it.
这将是一个公平的处理方式。
Just say, OK.
只是说，好吧。
Quit it.
戒掉吧。
We only want white people.
我们只想要白人。
Because that's the message they would give.
因为这就是他们要传达的信息。
That's what it'd signal to you-- is she saying, I don't need any more people like you, I don't need any more minorities?
这就是它向你发出的信号——她是在说，我不需要更多像你这样的人，我不需要更多的少数族裔吗？
Not just, "I don't need any more people"-- "I don't need people like you anymore." This culture forms over a hundred years, and it's really hard to try to get a foot in the door while people just want their old fire brigade back.
不仅仅是“我不再需要更多的人”——“我不再需要像你这样的人了。”这种文化已经形成了一百多年，当人们只是想让他们的旧消防队回来时，想要踏入这扇门真的很难。
And they will resist any change.
他们会抵制任何改变。
That's reality.
这就是现实。
Do you feel like your days are numbered?
你是否觉得你的日子屈指可数了？
He wants to talk-- I think we should talk about that maybe at a different moment.
他想谈谈——我想我们也许应该在不同的时刻谈谈。
It's not something that you really want to talk about right now?
这不是你现在真正想谈论的事情吗？
No, no. Joanna Kakissis Have you made a pitch to the mayor about why you should stay?
不，不。乔安娜·卡基西斯（Joanna Kakissis） 您是否向市长提出过您应该留下来的理由？
I told her that the phase we're in now-- it takes about six years to break the habits.
我告诉她，我们现在所处的阶段——需要大约六年的时间才能打破习惯。
And so only after six years old should you start thinking about unifying things.
因此，只有六岁之后，你才应该开始考虑统一事物。
And I think now, the municipal organization is all about trying to find unification.
我认为现在，市政组织的全部任务就是寻求统一。
But I think that's too soon.
但我认为这还为时过早。
And so I told her, you should just leave me here for another couple of years to do the breaking bit.
所以我告诉她，你应该让我再留在这里几年，去做一些突破性的事情。
What did the mayor say?
市长说什么？
Leen Schaap [SPEAKING DUTCH]
Leen Schaap [荷兰语]
The mayor declined many requests for an interview.
市长拒绝了许多采访请求。
I wondered if Leen was regretting his management style, if he was thinking he should have been more polder model-- more diplomatic.
我想知道莱恩是否对他的管理风格感到遗憾，是否认为他应该采取更保守的模式——更外交。
Do you feel like there's something about the way you do things that perhaps contributed?
您是否觉得您做事的方式可能有所贡献？
So this is something that you may see in retrospect, like, I should have done this differently, or I should have approached this differently.
所以这是你回想起来可能会看到的事情，比如，我应该以不同的方式做这件事，或者我应该以不同的方式处理这个问题。
I'm just curious.
我只是好奇。
Interpreter Sometimes I think maybe, in retrospect, I wanted results too fast.
有时候回想起来，我想也许我想要结果的速度太快了。
But a real cultural change really can't be forced, or sped up.
但真正的文化变革确实不能被强迫或加速。
So instead of creating more support, you get more resistance because the organization isn't ready to change.
因此，你不但没有创造更多的支持，反而会遇到更多的阻力，因为组织还没有准备好改变。
And so I was very black and white.
所以我是非常黑白分明的。
And I don't really regret it.
我并不后悔。
But maybe, I think now, with more nuance, I would have opened it more to conversation instead of just resistance.
但我现在想，如果有更多的细微差别，我可能会更多地进行对话，而不仅仅是抵抗。
Do you think the conversation would have helped?
你认为这次谈话会有帮助吗？
That's the dilemma.
这就是困境。
Leen Schaap [SPEAKING DUTCH]
Leen Schaap [荷兰语]
Interpreter But honesty begs me to say that I also really didn't try.
翻译 但老实说我也确实没有尝试过。
I just went down and laid down the law.
我刚刚下去制定了法律。
And maybe, if I tried, then it would have been slightly different.
也许，如果我尝试的话，结果会略有不同。
But the question really is, how long do you want it to take?
但真正的问题是，你想要花多长时间？
Do you accept this kind of behavior to continue for another 20 years?
你能接受这种行为再持续20年吗？
And I'm trying to change it sooner rather than later.
我正在努力尽快改变它。
So Leen, I'm starting to think-- and maybe this is me just being paranoid-- but I'm starting to think that you're telling me that your days are numbered.
所以，莱恩，我开始思考——也许这只是我的偏执——但我开始认为你是在告诉我，你的日子已经屈指可数了。
Is that what you're telling me right now?
这就是你现在告诉我的吗？
Leen's last day as commander of the Amsterdam Fire Department is October 1.
10 月 1 日是莱恩担任阿姆斯特丹消防局局长的最后一天。
Mayor Halsema issued a press release recently announcing his departure, and made it clear that she had forced him out.
哈尔瑟玛市长最近发布新闻稿宣布他离职，并明确表示是她强迫他离开的。
She says combating discrimination is still a top priority.
她说，打击歧视仍然是首要任务。
When the news came out, firefighters at one station celebrated with cake.
消息传出后，一处消防站的消防员用蛋糕庆祝。
A photo circulated on social media of firefighters in front of a fire truck wearing party hats.
社交媒体上流传的一张消防员戴着派对帽站在消防车前的照片。
The Brotherhood had won.
兄弟会赢了。
One guy tweeted, "Bye bye, Kim Jung Schaap." The day Leen's departure was announced, a firefighter parked a camper van at a station.
一名男子在推特上写道：“再见，Kim Jung Schaap。”在莱恩宣布离开的当天，一名消防员将一辆露营车停在车站。
Joanna Kakissis.
乔安娜·卡基西斯。
She's normally a reporter for NPR'S Daily News programs.
她通常是 NPR 每日新闻节目的记者。
[MUSIC - "TIME FOR YOU TO GO" BY THE THREE TO GET]
[音乐 - 三人组的《TIME FOR YOU TO GO》]
Act Two: Mom.
第二幕：妈妈。
Hey Mom.
嘿妈妈。
MOM.
妈妈。
Hey Mom.
嘿妈妈。
Mom.
妈妈。
Mom Ira Glass Act Two.
妈妈艾拉·格拉斯第二幕。
Mom?
妈妈？
Hey, mom?
嘿，妈妈？
Mom?
妈妈？
Mom!
妈妈！
Hey, Mom!
嘿，妈妈！
Mom!
妈妈！
Mom!
妈妈！
So we have time on the show today for just one more quick story about somebody deciding that the only way forward is to rip something down and rebuild from the ground up.
因此，我们今天有时间在节目中再讲一个简短的故事，讲述的是某人决定前进的唯一出路就是推倒某些东西并从头开始重建。
Elna Baker, tell us what happened.
埃尔娜·贝克，告诉我们发生了什么事。
Here's a typical day from when Katie Dyer was 15, growing up outside Detroit.
这是凯蒂·戴尔 15 岁时在底特律郊外长大时典型的一天。
She gets home from school--
她放学回家——
And our chore list was posted on the banister.
我们的家务清单贴在栏杆上。
And I was really frustrated, because it was longer than normal, and there were chickens from where the sliding glass door had been left open.
我真的很沮丧，因为它比平常更长，而且滑动玻璃门开着的地方有鸡。
This happened all the time.
这种事一直都在发生。
Her mom loved chickens, and they got in the house.
她妈妈很喜欢鸡，所以它们就进了屋子。
Here a chick, there a chick, everywhere a-- you know.
这里有一个小鸡，那里有一个小鸡，到处都有——你知道。
There were chickens perched on the couch.
沙发上栖息着几只鸡。
There were chickens on the kitchen counter, and on the dining room table.
厨房柜台上和餐桌上都有鸡。
I mean, there were just chickens everywhere.
我的意思是，到处都是鸡。
And I looked up the stairs, and she was sitting at the computer.
我向楼梯上望去，她正坐在电脑前。
And I was just-- in that moment, I was very frustrated.
在那一刻，我感到非常沮丧。
Because now, I've got to herd the chickens outside, complete all these chores-- so I was just very irritated.
因为现在我必须把鸡赶到外面，完成所有这些杂务——所以我非常恼火。
And at some point, rather than going straight into my chores, I sat down to journal.
在某些时候，我没有直接去做家务，而是坐下来写日记。
Yeah.
是的。
So in this entry, it says, "My mom never does anything but sit at the computer and play the stupid Sims online anymore."
因此，在这篇文章中，它说：“我妈妈除了坐在电脑前，再在线玩愚蠢的模拟人生之外，什么都不做。”
That's what her mom was doing when she came home from school-- playing The Sims.
这就是她放学回家时妈妈正在做的事情——玩《模拟人生》。
You know, the video game where you get a simulated family and a simulated house to live a simulated life.
你知道，在电子游戏中，你可以得到一个模拟家庭和一个模拟房子来过模拟生活。
Today, she made me do all the real chores after school because she was busy doing fake ones on The Sims.
今天，放学后她让我做所有真正的家务，因为她正忙着在《模拟人生》中做假家务。
She brought home three fancy chickens today.
她今天带了三只漂亮的鸡回家。
Oh, great-- more fucking birds.
哦，太棒了——还有更多该死的鸟。
OK.
好的。
Gotta go.
得走了。
Bye.
再见。
Katie says her mom moved out of her bedroom and set up a futon in the computer room to sleep next to the game.
凯蒂说，她妈妈搬出了卧室，在电脑房里放了一个蒲团，睡在游戏旁边。
She'd play, crash on the futon, play more.
她会玩，倒在蒲团上，玩得更多。
Katie craved her attention.
凯蒂渴望得到她的关注。
I remember, I used to just sometimes go up to her little den area, where her computer was set.
我记得，我有时只是去她的小书房，那里放着她的电脑。
And sometimes, doing things just to intentionally annoy her-- but in a funny way.
有时，做一些事情只是为了故意惹恼她——但以一种有趣的方式。
Like, I would take her headphones off, and I would just come up to her, and sort of zerbert her neck-- like, raspberry her neck.
就像，我会摘下她的耳机，然后走到她身边，然后轻轻地捏住她的脖子，就像覆盆子一样。
Or, like-- what can I do to get your attention?
或者，比如——我该怎么做才能引起你的注意？
Like, I was just standing there, waving my arms over my head-- which is hilarious, because that's something the Sims would literally do.
就像，我只是站在那里，在头顶上挥动手臂——这很搞笑，因为那是模拟人生真正会做的事情。
When they wanted your attention, they'd put their arms over their head, and wave them, and shout at you in whatever Sim language they speak.
当他们想要引起你的注意时，他们会把手臂举过头顶，挥舞手臂，然后用他们所说的任何模拟语言对你大喊大叫。
Sometimes, Katie would catch glimpses of the world her mom was building.
有时，凯蒂会瞥见她妈妈正在建造的世界。
In The Sims, her mother played the guitar and piano, had dinner parties.
在《模拟人生》中，她的母亲弹吉他和钢琴，举办晚宴。
She also had a Sims family named after her real husband and kids.
她还有一个模拟人生家庭，以她真正的丈夫和孩子的名字命名。
Her sister and father looked like their Sims-- but not Katie.
她的姐姐和父亲看起来像他们的模拟市民，但凯蒂却不是。
In real life, Katie dyed her hair and dressed edgy.
在现实生活中，凯蒂染了头发，穿着前卫。
But I remember-- the Sim that she had named after me had this stupid, almost bowl-cut-looking brown hair, and always wore these pencil skirts and button-ups.
但我记得——她以我的名字命名的模拟市民有一头愚蠢的、几乎是碗形的棕色头发，而且总是穿着这些铅笔裙和纽扣衬衫。
And I remember thinking, like, that's not me at all.
我记得我当时想，那根本不是我。
Is that who you wish I was?
那是你希望我成为的人吗？
She tried everything she could think of to coax her mom off the Sims.
她想尽了一切办法来哄她妈妈离开模拟人生。
She tried to reason with her, joke with her, bargain with her.
她试图和她讲道理，和她开玩笑，和她讨价还价。
Finally, Katie reached a breaking point.
终于，凯蒂达到了崩溃的边缘。
One night, she sat down at the computer and opened her mom's Sims world.
一天晚上，她坐在电脑前，打开了妈妈的模拟人生世界。
With her literally sleeping on the futon, just five feet away from me, was like-- well, I'm doing this.
她真的睡在蒲团上，距离我只有五英尺，就像——好吧，我正在这样做。
The first thing I did was-- so there was a cheat code.
我做的第一件事是——所以有一个作弊码。
I think it's a semicolon and an exclamation point, over and over.
我认为这是一个分号和一个感叹号，一遍又一遍。
You put it in, and you can get, like-- it was a lot of money.
你把它放进去，你就能得到，就像——这是很多钱。
I got enough money that I could buy multiple stoves, mostly.
我有足够的钱，基本上可以买多个炉子。
Another thing that I did, I remember, is you could buy-- I think it was like-- you know those oversized teddy bears people give?
我记得我做的另一件事是你可以买——我想这就像——你知道人们赠送的那些超大泰迪熊吗？
You could buy these giant oversized bears, and put them near the fireplace, and stuff like that.
你可以买这些巨大的超大熊，把它们放在壁炉附近，诸如此类的东西。
And so I removed the fire extinguishers, and the smoke detectors, and stuff.
所以我拿走了灭火器、烟雾探测器等等。
And I remember walking the Sim she had named after me out to the yard, and deleting the door behind me that went out to the front yard, and just waiting.
我记得带着她以我的名字命名的模拟市民到院子里，然后删除了我身后通往前院的门，然后就等着了。
Her dad and sister Sim go to the stoves and start cooking.
她的爸爸和妹妹西姆走到炉边开始做饭。
Soon, a kitchen and a living room fire break out.
很快，厨房和客厅发生火灾。
The sparks hit the teddy bears-- game on.
火花击中了泰迪熊——比赛开始了。
And the Sims are just running around, screaming with their hands in the air.
模拟人生只是到处乱跑，高举双手尖叫。
And like--
就像——
Yes.
是的。
They scream in whatever that weird Sim language is.
他们用任何奇怪的模拟语言尖叫。
Can you do it?
你能做到吗？
Katie Dyer [SCREAMING IN SIMLISH] It's just like that.
凯蒂·戴尔 [用相似语尖叫] 就是这样。
It's just gibberish.
这只是胡言乱语。
And I'm laughing so hard.
我笑得很厉害。
Like, I remember at some point thinking, I'm going to pee my pants.
就像，我记得有一次我在想，我要尿裤子了。
And I'm trying so hard to not laugh out loud, because she's sleeping right behind me.
我努力不让自己笑出声来，因为她就睡在我身后。
There were firemen, but they'd only come if you told your Sim to call them.
虽然有消防员，但只有你告诉你的模拟市民给他们打电话，他们才会来。
I burned her Sim house and family alive.
我活活烧毁了她模拟市民的房子和家人。
Eventually, the fire stops.
最终，火停止了。
The Katie character stands in the yard.
凯蒂这个角色站在院子里。
Her mom, father, and sister are dead.
她的妈妈、爸爸和姐姐都死了。
When a Sim dies, this little urn appears in its place.
当模拟市民死亡时，这个小瓮就会出现在它的位置。
I went back in the house.
我回到屋里。
And you could pick up the little urns.
你还可以捡起小瓮。
And I picked up the little urns, and just placed them near each other, and knew, well, I'm going to be in a lot of trouble tomorrow.
我拿起小瓮，把它们放在一起，我知道，好吧，明天我会遇到很多麻烦。
Because Katie was the only Sim left, it was going to be pretty clear who'd done all this.
因为凯蒂是唯一剩下的模拟市民，所以这一切是谁干的就一目了然了。
I got up the next morning to leave for school.
第二天早上我起床去学校。
And I remember, as I was leaving, she was just sort of starting to get logged into her game and stuff.
我记得，当我离开时，她才刚刚开始登录她的游戏之类的东西。
When I got home, she yelled at me to come up the stairs.
当我回到家时，她大声叫我上楼梯。
I came up the stairs, and she paused her Sim game that she had been rebuilding to turn around and yell at me.
我走上楼梯，她暂停了正在重建的模拟游戏，转身对我大喊大叫。
And she was like, you owe me an apology.
她说，你欠我一个道歉。
That was weeks of my life.
那是我生命中的几个星期。
And it still felt like a small victory, I guess, because it was one of the first times in a while that she had to step away from that life to engage her real life.
我想，这仍然感觉像是一个小小的胜利，因为这是一段时间以来她第一次不得不离开那种生活，投入到她的现实生活中。
She wrote in her journal, "Grounded.
她在日记中写道：“接地气。
Figures.
数字。
But it was funny.
但这很有趣。
I have to do all the housework now so she can rebuild.
我现在必须做所有的家务，这样她才能重建。
I do all of it anyway, so whatever.
无论如何，我都做了这一切，所以无论如何。
Dad thinks I'll go to jail someday.
爸爸认为我有一天会进监狱。
At least in jail, they don't make you get up at 6:00 AM to feed chickens."
至少在监狱里，他们不会让你早上 6:00 起床去喂鸡。”
Elna Baker is one of the producers of our show.
埃尔娜·贝克是我们节目的制片人之一。
Katie Dyer has done no jail time, and she's a bus driver and mom in Knoxville.
凯蒂·戴尔（Katie Dyer）没有入狱，她是诺克斯维尔的一名公交车司机和妈妈。
A version of her story originally appeared on Mortified.
她的故事的一个版本最初出现在 Mortified 上。
You can get their podcast wherever you get your podcasts, or at getmortified.com.
您可以在任何获取播客的地方或在 getmortified.com 上获取他们的播客。
Our program was produced today by Miki Meek, with help from Nadia Reiman.
今天我们的节目由 Miki Meek 在 Nadia Reiman 的帮助下制作。
People who put the show together today include Bim Adewunmi, Elna Baker, Susan Burton, Ben Calhoun, Zoe Chace, Whitney Dangerfield, Neil Drumming, Damien Graef, Michelle Harris, Jessica Lussenhop, Stowe Nelson, Katherine Rae Mondo, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, Julie Snyder, Lilly Sullivan, Christopher Swetala, and Matt Tierney.
今天制作该节目的人员包括 Bim Adewunmi、Elna Baker、Susan Burton、Ben Calhoun、Zoe Chace、Whitney Dangerfield、Neil Drumming、Damien Graef、Michelle Harris、Jessica Lussenhop、Stowe Nelson、Katherine Rae Mondo、Robyn Semien、Alissa Shipp、Julie Snyder、Lilly Sullivan、Christopher Swetala 和 Matt Tierney。
Our managing editor is Diane Wu.
我们的总编辑是 Diane Wu。
Our executive editor is David Kestenbaum.
我们的执行编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。
Our interpreters for today's show-- Stephanie van den Berg, Joost van Egmond, and Helena de Groot.
我们今天节目的口译员是 Stephanie van den Berg、Joost van Egmond 和 Helena de Groot。
The voice actors you heard-- Michiel Bakker, Mike Lebanon, and Jara Lucieer.
您听到的配音演员是米契尔·巴克 (Michiel Bakker)、迈克·黎巴嫩 (Mike Lebanon) 和贾拉·卢西尔 (Jara Lucieer)。
I'm going to just say-- these things are so hard to pronounce.
我只想说——这些东西很难发音。
For the special thanks, I'm going to hand it over to our interpreter, Helena de Groot.
为了表达特别的谢意，我将把它交给我们的口译员 Helena de Groot。
Special thanks today to Hagar Jobse, Hannah van der Wurff, Aviva de Kornfeld, Joost Kampen, Elly Kloosterman, Kemal Rijken, Anke Truijen, Hassan Bahara, Ruben Koops, Hans van Velden, Dimitris Angelidis, Toby Sterling, Bo Tarenskeen, and Christopher Miller.
今天特别感谢 Hagar Jobse、Hannah van der Wurff、Aviva de Kornfeld、Joost Kampen、Elly Kloosterman、Kemal Rijken、Anke Truijen、Hassan Bahara、Ruben Koops、Hans van Velden、Dimitris Angelidis、Toby Sterling、Bo Tarenskeen 和 Christopher Miller。
Thank you, Helena.
谢谢你，海伦娜。
Our website-- thisamericanlife.org.
我们的网站——thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
You know, he's like a marriage expert-- everyone on staff goes to him for advice all the time.
你知道，他就像一位婚姻专家——工作人员中的每个人总是向他寻求建议。
I'm 29 years with my wife.
我和我妻子已经29岁了。
If I focus on all the bad things that I said about her, then we would never get married.
如果我把注意力集中在我说过的关于她的所有坏话上，那么我们永远不会结婚。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
This American Life This American Life 与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。